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GW shut down the bitz service because keeping that much inventory is expensive. Having every single item available is simply bad business. So shutting down the bitz service as it existed made sense.

However, in typical GW style, they pushed that pendulum hard when they set up the new bits service, creating an obtuse, useless and overpriced system that is hardly ever expanded upon and contains mostly crap.

What they should have done is scaled down their bits service by looking at what sold and what didn't, rather than just cutting the whole service and going to 'bits/conversion packs'.

Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?

Because they don't.

Earthbeard wrote:

Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?

Because they don't.

rofl

H.B.M.C. wrote:
However, in typical GW style, they pushed that pendulum hard when they set up the new bits service, creating an obtuse, useless and overpriced system that is hardly ever expanded upon and contains mostly crap.

Looking at your three adjectives:

Obtuse:
1. Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.
2. Difficult to understand.

I don't find the new bits service difficult to understand in the least. I go to the site, look at the links, click them, they go in my cart, I click order, and they're mailed to my house. So perhaps you meant annoyingly insensitive. But, I don't really see how to apply those words to a retail service.


Useless:

I have to disagree. I've used their bitz service with each of the armies I've built in the last three years, since they switched to this system.

Overpriced:
Again, I have to disagree. Compared to the old bitz service, the new one is far more reasonable. I don't have access to the prices under the old system, but some basic comparisons, with things I've actually bought:

Deathrolla (Ork Battlewagon Upgrade Pack): The old option (FW) runs $25USD. The upgrade sprue is $13.25, and includes a lobba, a killkannon, and a grot rigger.

Marine Shoulder Pads: Packs of 10 for $8.25 is the standard. I remember ordering them individually for $1 or more individually. That's a price drop.

Emperor's Children Weapons: When I put together my first noise marine army, with the old bitz service, these ended up costing something like $5/guy. You had to buy the weapon and the supporting arm separately, and I don't think any bit ever sold for under $1. The pack gives you 5 sonic blasters and a blastmaster for $22, with all the supporting arms included. That's a savings of at least $5 over a unit.

Meltaguns: 5 for $8. Much better than for 1 for $2 under the old system.

Familiars: Yeah, they're kinda funny, but I've always had a soft spot for them. I guess other people did too, because they made the cut for bitz packs. They were at least $3/each before. Now you get a pack where they're about $1.50-$1.75 per guy.

Unicorn: I can actually order the unicorn now, not the unicorn left side, and unicorn right side individually. Hardly what I'd call obtuse.

Wings: In one of the stranger cases, they didn't actually have a parts code for the Dark Pegasus wings under the old system. I had to buy the whole dark pegasus to get the wings for my daemon princess conversion. But they're in the new bitz system, organized conveniently under the heading of 'wings'. I think I still have the old dark pegasus rider around somewhere...
On the other hand, my favourite set of wings isn't in the new system, that being Be'Lakor's. So I guess that one is about even.

What they should have done is scaled down their bits service by looking at what sold and what didn't, rather than just cutting the whole service and going to 'bits/conversion packs'.

You know that the bitz packs that they put together were based on what sold and what didn't. It was inevitable that some things wouldn't be available under this new system. But, in reality, there has been very little that I've actually wanted to order that I've been unable to, and the things that I've wanted to order in quantities (shoulder pads and sonic weapons, mostly) have been packaged in an intelligent fashion that has actually saved me money.

Earthbeard wrote:

Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?

Because they don't.

QFT. I am really baffled by this perception that PP is cheap and GW is expensive. Comparable models have comparable prices; you just need a lost less for a typical game of Warmahordes versus Fantasy or 40k.

Redbeard wrote:

You know that the bitz packs that they put together were based on what sold and what didn't. It was inevitable that some things wouldn't be available under this new system. But, in reality, there has been very little that I've actually wanted to order that I've been unable to, and the things that I've wanted to order in quantities (shoulder pads and sonic weapons, mostly) have been packaged in an intelligent fashion that has actually saved me money.

I was working for the company prior to the switch being made, and the reason it was done was entirely down to people's ordering habits. Namely, lots of customers were ordering single components from a model kit, at the expense of the other parts. As an example, Fabius Bile's apothecary pack, a chaos lords weapon or something like one of the high elf characters magic books. The problem was, for each one of those components ordered they would have to cast up an entire miniature as they were all part of the same mould. The end result was that, for something like Fabius Bile, there were literally hundreds of bodies/weapon components made that would never be any use (and would just be scrap) all for the sale of something that was sometimes a 50p or one pound component. It was being operated at a big loss, when GW was doing it's restructuring no one was surprised when it was one of the first things to go.

The current system isn't a patch on what we had then. Admittedly it has got much better since the initial switch (which was completely underwhelming, and lead to a fair amount of bitching by the regulars in the shop), but it stands to reason that nothing will compare favorably to a system where you can order any single component from any metal kit.

Pacific wrote: The end result was that, for something like Fabius Bile, there were literally hundreds of bodies/weapon components made that would never be any use (and would just be scrap) all for the sale of something that was sometimes a 50p or one pound component. It was being operated at a big loss, when GW was doing it's restructuring no one was surprised when it was one of the first things to go.

LOL, is that why my bitz bags from the great disaster seemd to have a bunch of Fabius Bile bodies.

That was the best thign GW ever did as I got so many awesome bitz that to this day I still find uses for. I literally got a bag that was almost 100% fantasy goblins.

Bodiless wrote:
QFT. I am really baffled by this perception that PP is cheap and GW is expensive. Comparable models have comparable prices; you just need a lost less for a typical game of Warmahordes versus Fantasy or 40k.

Some people prefer to compare price per 'fun' as opposed to price per model.

Pacific wrote: there were literally hundreds of bodies/weapon components made that would never be any use (and would just be scrap)

So why didn't they just melt them down and re-use them?

that would be logical...

skyth wrote:So why didn't they just melt them down and re-use them?

dajobe wrote:that would be logical...

Pfft, you people and your stupid logic

Redbeard wrote:
Deathrolla (Ork Battlewagon Upgrade Pack): The old option (FW) runs $25USD. The upgrade sprue is $13.25, and includes a lobba, a killkannon, and a grot rigger.

I'm looking at this and thinking "well yes, obviously the FW one is more expensive, their stuff is hardly cheap, thing with the old system is you could get buy just what you needed, I know your harping on about "your can buy X for Y" how often do you actually need 5 metal guns or 5 psycannon arms? Its not cheaper if you paying more and having 4 sitting in your bitz box

What they should have done is scaled down their bits service by looking at what sold and what didn't, rather than just cutting the whole service and going to 'bits/conversion packs'.

You know that the bitz packs that they put together were based on what sold and what didn't. It was inevitable that some things wouldn't be available under this new system. But, in reality, there has been very little that I've actually wanted to order that I've been unable to, and the things that I've wanted to order in quantities (shoulder pads and sonic weapons, mostly) have been packaged in an intelligent fashion that has actually saved me money.

what was i thinking!!! i have now decided to implement a model destruction program where i light my mini's on fire everytime they die in battle! the table in my basement will be glorious!

I have no idea what came over you, I mean really! all this talk about GW and logic, honestly

Well, except when a miniatures company tosses a metal cast back into the melting pot, it's not burned to cinders but completely reusable.

Bodiless wrote:

Earthbeard wrote:

Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?

Because they don't.

QFT. I am really baffled by this perception that PP is cheap and GW is expensive. Comparable models have comparable prices; you just need a lost less for a typical game of Warmahordes versus Fantasy or 40k.

I don't know what PP prices are because I've never looked at any of their products.

I do however know that the other miniatures companies I buy from, such as Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures, are cheaper by a margin of 25% to 75% compared to GW models on a one for one basis.

Also, people keep comparing them on a model vs model basis, i think that a better way to do it would be point vs point. If it only takes 25 models to make 2000pts in warmahordes, and 50 in 40k, i say that PP is cheaper, even if they cost the same amount per model or even if PP cost a little more. For me, it is how much it costs to make an army. I have no idea on actual figures because i have never played warmahordes and have never looked at their products/prices or rules...

Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't know what PP prices are because I've never looked at any of their products.

I do however know that the other miniatures companies I buy from, such as Hasslefree, Corvus Belli and historical figures, are cheaper by a margin of 25% to 75% compared to GW models on a one for one basis.

Okay. I don't know much about this historical lines, or how detailed they are. I do know that Hasslefree models are not as detailed as GW.

Here is the pic from the front page of their website:



They're not bad, but they're not as detailed. The top-left model is laughably simple. Neither of the right side models have any real detail, and even the pirate seems more like the old 1980's grenadier models than a current sculpt. I can see why they're 25% cheaper than a similarly sized GW model.

And, yes, you're right, there are cheaper companies, but there are also companies that cost more on a per-model basis than GW. Freebooter miniatures, a line that I adore, is typically 5-10% more expensive than GW. Their individual characters can hit $20 for a human-sized model, and the slightly-larger-than-human-sized are more. But look at the detail:


My point, however, is that you're continually harping on about how some other companies produce figures for less than GW. That's true. But these other companies produce figures for more than GW, and you're not considering the quality of the models. Maybe that's fair if you're only considering them game pieces, but I have shown, (with data, in other threads), that GWs prices are far from the most expensive on the market, and are, by no means, out of line for quality miniatures.

itsonlyme wrote:

Redbeard wrote:
Deathrolla (Ork Battlewagon Upgrade Pack): The old option (FW) runs $25USD. The upgrade sprue is $13.25, and includes a lobba, a killkannon, and a grot rigger.

I'm looking at this and thinking "well yes, obviously the FW one is more expensive, their stuff is hardly cheap, thing with the old system is you could get buy just what you needed, I know your harping on about "your can buy X for Y" how often do you actually need 5 metal guns or 5 psycannon arms? Its not cheaper if you paying more and having 4 sitting in your bitz box

That's a fair point. However, I haven't really encountered this scenario. Perhaps their research into what should be included in the bitz service included how many were typically ordered. I don't know that it did or didn't, but I know that the sonic weaponry for Noise Marines is sold in the number that makes a lot of sense to Slaanesh players (six total weapons), that shoulderpads are sold in packs of ten (a unit size), and that I don't have any extra meltaguns sitting around...

Redbeard wrote:

That's a fair point. However, I haven't really encountered this scenario. Perhaps their research into what should be included in the bitz service included how many were typically ordered. I don't know that it did or didn't, but I know that the sonic weaponry for Noise Marines is sold in the number that makes a lot of sense to Slaanesh players (six total weapons), that shoulderpads are sold in packs of ten (a unit size), and that I don't have any extra meltaguns sitting around...

I'll have to agree on this(the only caveat being I DO have extra Meltas laying around, but only because I haven't purchased the bodies they are to go on yet for a specific project).

I'm not really going to comment on the price issue, because my problem hasn't ever been price(I buy what I think is worth it,), only the way GW Corporate acts.

dajobe wrote:Also, people keep comparing them on a model vs model basis, i think that a better way to do it would be point vs point. If it only takes 25 models to make 2000pts in warmahordes, and 50 in 40k, i say that PP is cheaper, even if they cost the same amount per model or even if PP cost a little more. For me, it is how much it costs to make an army. I have no idea on actual figures because i have never played warmahordes and have never looked at their products/prices or rules...

Right, but this is not the point that people were making. The OP was referencing the price of materials such as plastic and tin, and asking why GW was so much more expensive than PP given the same raw materials. The point is that they are not. Similar materials, similar scales, similar prices.

How much it costs to make an army is a viable metric, but that is a very different point. Sure, if the game doesn't require as many models to play it will be cheaper. But it is also a very different game. It makes as much sense to directly compare Warmachine and Fantasy as it does to directly compare Mordheim and Fantasy.

true, i was just adding a point which i viewed as a sort of parallel, but strictly going by price of materials and pricing, you are correct

Bodiless wrote:

Earthbeard wrote:

Brunius wrote:I'm sorry, if you people have to take into account the price of tin/plastic, then why do competitors such as privateer press still price their products lower?

Because they don't.

QFT. I am really baffled by this perception that PP is cheap and GW is expensive. Comparable models have comparable prices; you just need a lost less for a typical game of Warmahordes versus Fantasy or 40k.

Sorry but the final point is a playable army. If one costs 20$ per fig and requires 10 figs, that costs $200. OTOH if one costs 5$ per fig and requires 100, that costs $500. We can argue over the quality of the sculpt or the unreasonableness of the cost per fig but the bottomline if you want to play a game is the total cost to have a viable army. That is the joy that is GW. $500 to get your army and then shortlived duration of effectiveness. (Usually 2 to 4 codexes until you are relegated to 2nd class citizen.)

DAaddict wrote:

Sorry but the final point is a playable army. If one costs 20$ per fig and requires 10 figs, that costs $200. OTOH if one costs 5$ per fig and requires 100, that costs $500. We can argue over the quality of the sculpt or the unreasonableness of the cost per fig but the bottomline if you want to play a game is the total cost to have a viable army. That is the joy that is GW. $500 to get your army and then shortlived duration of effectiveness. (Usually 2 to 4 codexes until you are relegated to 2nd class citizen.)

See the above point. If this is the case the problem is not the price of the models, the problem is that you want to play/pay for a skirmish game. Which is fine, but it is a different issue altogether. I am just getting into Legion and think I will really enjoy Warmahordes, but it isn't going to be the same kind of experience as fielding my Tyranid or Skaven swarms. Not saying one is better or worse, but it is an apples and oranges comparison.

DAaddict wrote:
Sorry but the final point is a playable army.

I disagree, completely. GW has stated that maybe only 1/3rd of their customers actually play games. Other people are modelers, painters, artists, or just collectors. There's a guy who lives down the street from me, he's a corporate lawyer. He's got over 20 armies, and doesn't play any of the games. He gets people to paint them for him, and he collects them.

GW is, and views themselves as, a miniatures company first, and a gaming company second. The "final point" is the price of the miniatures. The game, for them, exists to create more demand for the miniatures. You have to buy more models every few codexes to remain competitive - they've turned your desire to be competitive into a demand for more miniatures.

The pricing of the miniatures is impacted by the game because demand influences how many they need to sell to cover their fixed costs. They're going to sell less Marneus Calgars than they're going to sell generic ultramarines, because people will buy 20 or more marines for each marneus. That's just how that part works.

But to claim that the final point is a playable army ignores all those people who don't want playable armies. The people who want one of a model to paint it. And the pricing is absolutely within reason for the quality of the figures you get from GW. They're not the best figures, nor the most expensive. They're loads better than the worst figures, and they're not competing to be the cheapest.

A lot of the arguments I see boil down to anger at a company that has created something so cool that they want more and more of it, but don't want to pay a fair market price to get the more and more of it. So they say, "well, privateer press didn't make me want as many of their models, so they're cheaper and they're great, but GW sucks for making me want more than I can afford." I mean, okay, I guess if that's how you feel. But don't expect me to join in. I enjoy painting quality models, and I enjoy creating large armies, and I've got a group of friends who drink beers and roll dice, and none of us have anything against how GW is conducting their business.

Bodiless wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

Sorry but the final point is a playable army. If one costs 20$ per fig and requires 10 figs, that costs $200. OTOH if one costs 5$ per fig and requires 100, that costs $500. We can argue over the quality of the sculpt or the unreasonableness of the cost per fig but the bottomline if you want to play a game is the total cost to have a viable army. That is the joy that is GW. $500 to get your army and then shortlived duration of effectiveness. (Usually 2 to 4 codexes until you are relegated to 2nd class citizen.)

See the above point. If this is the case the problem is not the price of the models, the problem is that you want to play/pay for a skirmish game. Which is fine, but it is a different issue altogether. I am just getting into Legion and think I will really enjoy Warmahordes, but it isn't going to be the same kind of experience as fielding my Tyranid or Skaven swarms. Not saying one is better or worse, but it is an apples and oranges comparison.

I am not saying a 10 fig skirmish game is as enjoyable as a tactical 100 fig per side game but the issue IS the total cost of a game. If I have $500 disposable income, I can chose to do either but if I only have $200 disposable, I have a choice of one.

And yes I do ignore the one off modeller. You buy a box of 10 space marines and have at it you can paint 10 different chapters. Chances are you will be done with one box. The gamer is going to buy 5 to 6 boxes on the "need." So given 10 painters and 10 gamers we have a 6 to 1 ratio of who is going to buy more and should be more worth it to the hobby. While I may be a miniature company, I want the guy who is going to by 20 blisters as opposed to the one-off buyer of 5 different blisters.

Having read Redbeards statement, he has swayed me, i had never viewed GW as a model company, but as a gaming company, if you take that into account,and if that actually is the way that they view themselves, then he is very correct. But the point that DAaddict and I brought up, does effect them some. But if they truly are a modelling company at their heart, then that should not bother them as much, because i have seen some PP models and do believe GW is better. but kudos all around

Thanks for putting that so well, Redbeard!

skyth wrote:

Pacific wrote: there were literally hundreds of bodies/weapon components made that would never be any use (and would just be scrap)

So why didn't they just melt them down and re-use them?

Storage.

How long do you catalogue and store model pieces before you determine it's not profitable? They had millions of dollars tied up in storage and shipping. They have been cutting costs over the last five years, and that was a huge savings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:

Mastiff wrote:
Sorry, I just have to ask; did you twirl your mustache as you made that statement?

Nah, I was stroking my Goatee. I genuinely want to see GW burn to the ground, and out of those ashes arise a new, better, reborn company. They are going have to fall on their arse quite hard and I think this year's financials will be the beginning of the end, all we need is another Pokemon or equivelant to rid GW of the kiddies spending their pennies and the rest will topple.

Awesome I wish I could grow a goatee for moments like that.

For the record, though, GW's profits have been steadily rising since 2006. they've taken a slight dip (6%) for the first half of 2011, but overall they're doing well financially.

DAaddict wrote:
Sorry but the final point is a playable army. If one costs 20$ per fig and requires 10 figs, that costs $200. OTOH if one costs 5$ per fig and requires 100, that costs $500. We can argue over the quality of the sculpt or the unreasonableness of the cost per fig but the bottomline if you want to play a game is the total cost to have a viable army. That is the joy that is GW. $500 to get your army and then shortlived duration of effectiveness. (Usually 2 to 4 codexes until you are relegated to 2nd class citizen.)

Other hobbies have similiar start up fees and astronomical ones if you choose to stay in. My mate who plays golf says the for an entry level bag of clubs $300-$400 Usd while a good "keeper set" of golf clubs will cost you past $1000. He also said the most he's ever spent on a single club was over $400 USD. My cousin flys Radio controlled vehicles says that an entry level RC plane with controls run $200. Because he's stays in his hobby he's amassed over $8,000 Usd of planes/controls etc....and that's not even counting maintenance costs (because sometimes planes crash). And there are a myriad of other "hobbies cost money" examples.

And GW isn't producing crap by any means. In the non wargaming miniature collecting hobby there are companies that certainly are less expensive than GW, but what kind of quality are we talking about? Sure some better quality for less, but also some less quality for less. And honestly check this girl out.

AussieCon SteamPunk Dorothy $24Usd before shipping. I would have snapped her up in a minute had I saw her earlier. OOP Now. Quality matches if not surpasses GW easily, made of resin-so it's supposed to be cheaper. But this is the type of quality GW is going for on every new sculpt. They've employed new tech to back their play. I don't think I've seen a piece in 4 years that thought was absolute gak. And their customer service is great too - I've never had a problem getting an entire miniature replaced without any return on my part. So there are some brightsides to working with GW.

I'm not apologizing for GW. I know that they've done some f'd up things. I personally hate seeing old casts get bumped up in price year after year. But the bottom line is what we do is a hobby. Hobbies cost money, some more than others for sure. And we get all emotional and upset because it's a hobby we love. I think that we need to get touch with the fact that we could be spending the same or a lot more on other personal interests in lieu of GW. And after that tell GW how you really feel with your wallet.

-MightyG

Wow, that model's awesome. And, that's exactly the same point that I was getting at earlier too.

Can someone please enlighten me as to the Poor Quality rules that some people are alluding to?

If someone could give me a few examples.