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problem for the nightlords if 2nd cron wave comes out before: we cannot instill fear

Think about it guys what sense does putting out a dex right before 6th comes out.
If wrote for 6th then you would get sneak peak of rules,which I never see happening.
Chaos will probally be end of the year,After the starter set.
That way everyone buys the set for the new renegade models that are rumored to be in it before they release the sprue later in the year.

The Demon codex they did it to, release right before new rules that is. And I believe when Orks came out they specifically said that the rules were made with 5th in mind and they are still competitive. Also looking back the Witchhunters codex was released before the 4th edition rulebook came out.

Eisenhorn wrote:Think about it guys what sense does putting out a dex right before 6th comes out.
If wrote for 6th then you would get sneak peak of rules,which I never see happening.
Chaos will probally be end of the year,After the starter set.
That way everyone buys the set for the new renegade models that are rumored to be in it before they release the sprue later in the year.

Necron have Monoliths with a "heavy" rule, so there's precedent.

Eisenhorn wrote:Think about it guys what sense does putting out a dex right before 6th comes out.
If wrote for 6th then you would get sneak peak of rules,which I never see happening.
Chaos will probally be end of the year,After the starter set.
That way everyone buys the set for the new renegade models that are rumored to be in it before they release the sprue later in the year.

As mentioned, Codex: Daemons was released just 2 months before 5th edition dropped, and it had all kinds of crap that made no sense. In fact, the army sucked for the first 2 months untill 5th edition hit because it was designed solely for the new edition! (effectively making it the first 5th edition book).
Orks also had some 5th ed terminology slipped into it too.

Now, we have GK's with things like 'psyker mastery levels' and newcrons with their 'heavy' type monolith tank... Seems pretty damn obvious there's a goodly number of blaitent 6th edition references and previews if you read closely enough!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Eisenhorn wrote:Think about it guys what sense does putting out a dex right before 6th comes out.
If wrote for 6th then you would get sneak peak of rules,which I never see happening.
Chaos will probally be end of the year,After the starter set.
That way everyone buys the set for the new renegade models that are rumored to be in it before they release the sprue later in the year.

As mentioned, Codex: Daemons was released just 2 months before 5th edition dropped, and it had all kinds of crap that made no sense. In fact, the army sucked for the first 2 months untill 5th edition hit because it was designed solely for the new edition! (effectively making it the first 5th edition book).
Orks also had some 5th ed terminology slipped into it too.

Now, we have GK's with things like 'psyker mastery levels' and newcrons with their 'heavy' type monolith tank... Seems pretty damn obvious there's a goodly number of blaitent 6th edition references and previews if you read closely enough!

I know it's "a hoax," but it's funny how the leakbook makes so much of that stuff we've seen over the last year and half make sense.

Anyway, I tend to think you hit on the reason why they may not do that again. Why create headscratching and negativity in your customers when you don't have to?

Thing is it wasn't so much a hoax, but stuff they let designers go nuts on before bringing together their actual ideas for 6th.

For all we know a few scraps of the 'Heresy edition' might make it into the 6th book?

Hopefully we'll know soon enough, only a few months to go.

To be honest, I think it was too well-developed to be merely an early throwaway. It might not be 75% accurate, but then IMO it's also more just 25% accurate. But that's off-topic.

This release is kind of fascinating just because there's so much uncertainty and so many variables invovled. We don't even know for sure if this is a separate Legions book or a CSM replacement.

chaos0xomega wrote:Boyd you need to read up on your fluff some more, because all the special characters in that book (barring Abaddon) are renegades. Ahriman has been exiled from the main body of the Thousand Sons by Magnus, Typhus is also out there doing his own thing, Kharn goes where the blood flows. I think the case could actually be made for Abaddon in a way too, as I understand it when he turned the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion a component of the Sons of Horus rebelled against him IIRC. Technically the Black Legion is a different organization from the original legion that fled to the Eye of Terror in any case.

Does that make them any less of a Legion Character? Typhus may not be a part of their main battle group but the only warriors he associates with are Death Guard. Ahiriman is the same way - he only associates with those in his Cabal - all Thousand Sons. Kharn still leads his World Eaters into battle. On top of that does their status as an outcast from their Legion make them any less a Legion Character? Bile would be the only exception as he actively sells his services to warbands to find new patients/subjects for his experiments. As far as Abaddon goes, there were forces that conspired against him when they tried to clone Horus. Abaddon destroyed the clones and those who opposed him and then formed the Black Legion. Renegades are very different from the actual Traitor Legions. The Traitor Legions actively participated in the Heresy whereas the Renegades didn't. If you did a Venn Diagram you would have a big circle that would say Renegades with a circle that is about half (or more) the size fully inside the Renegade's circle that would say Traitor Legions. All Traitor Legions are Renegades but not all Renegades are Traitor Legions.

boyd wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Boyd you need to read up on your fluff some more, because all the special characters in that book (barring Abaddon) are renegades. Ahriman has been exiled from the main body of the Thousand Sons by Magnus, Typhus is also out there doing his own thing, Kharn goes where the blood flows. I think the case could actually be made for Abaddon in a way too, as I understand it when he turned the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion a component of the Sons of Horus rebelled against him IIRC. Technically the Black Legion is a different organization from the original legion that fled to the Eye of Terror in any case.

Does that make them any less of a Legion Character? Typhus may not be a part of their main battle group but the only warriors he associates with are Death Guard. Ahiriman is the same way - he only associates with those in his Cabal - all Thousand Sons. Kharn still leads his World Eaters into battle. On top of that does their status as an outcast from their Legion make them any less a Legion Character? Bile would be the only exception as he actively sells his services to warbands to find new patients/subjects for his experiments. As far as Abaddon goes, there were forces that conspired against him when they tried to clone Horus. Abaddon destroyed the clones and those who opposed him and then formed the Black Legion. Renegades are very different from the actual Traitor Legions. The Traitor Legions actively participated in the Heresy whereas the Renegades didn't. If you did a Venn Diagram you would have a big circle that would say Renegades with a circle that is about half (or more) the size fully inside the Renegade's circle that would say Traitor Legions. All Traitor Legions are Renegades but not all Renegades are Traitor Legions.

I always thought the Legions CSM where those who fought during the Horus Heresy as Traitor Legions while the Renegades CSM where post-Heresy SM Chapter that turned to Chaos (like the Red Corsairs) and that was the end of it.

Legions and Renegades are what GW says they are. The details may change according to their business needs.

Khornate25 wrote:[I always thought the Legions CSM where those who fought during the Horus Heresy as Traitor Legions while the Renegades CSM where post-Heresy SM Chapter that turned to Chaos (like the Red Corsairs) and that was the end of it.

Kharne fought in the HH. Kharne still fights with World Eaters. However, he split off from the other World Eaters. So, who is the Traitor Legion? All of the World Eaters? Kharne and his World Eaters? The 'other' World Eaters that Kharne left. By leaving, wouldn't Kharne and his group technically be Renegade CSM at that point?

What about Fabious Bile? He's now a hired hit-man who will align himself with other factions so long as he gets geneseed and "experiments" as payment. Is he then a Renegade or is he still a Traitor Legionaire?

Semantics, i suppose, but if GW is going to split Traitor Legions from Renegade Chaos Space Marines, it suddenly becomes VERY important, no?

kronk wrote:

Khornate25 wrote:[I always thought the Legions CSM where those who fought during the Horus Heresy as Traitor Legions while the Renegades CSM where post-Heresy SM Chapter that turned to Chaos (like the Red Corsairs) and that was the end of it.

Kharne fought in the HH. Kharne still fights with World Eaters. However, he split off from the other World Eaters. So, who is the Traitor Legion? All of the World Eaters? Kharne and his World Eaters? The 'other' World Eaters that Kharne left. By leaving, wouldn't Kharne and his group technically be Renegade CSM at that point?

What about Fabious Bile? He's now a hired hit-man who will align himself with other factions so long as he gets geneseed and "experiments" as payment. Is he then a Renegade or is he still a Traitor Legionaire?

Semantics, i suppose, but if GW is going to split Traitor Legions from Renegade Chaos Space Marines, it suddenly becomes VERY important, no?

Kharn, Lucius, Typhus and Ahriman still are largely only seen with members of their own legion, so I'd put them in with them. Fabius Bile goes where he can get the most torture done, he's not affiliated with one group anymore, so he's renegade. If they're splitting the codices completely, then we might actually see a few more Chaos characters, which would be pretty cool. Or DOOMRIDER might come back...

Durza wrote:

kronk wrote:

Khornate25 wrote:[I always thought the Legions CSM where those who fought during the Horus Heresy as Traitor Legions while the Renegades CSM where post-Heresy SM Chapter that turned to Chaos (like the Red Corsairs) and that was the end of it.

Kharne fought in the HH. Kharne still fights with World Eaters. However, he split off from the other World Eaters. So, who is the Traitor Legion? All of the World Eaters? Kharne and his World Eaters? The 'other' World Eaters that Kharne left. By leaving, wouldn't Kharne and his group technically be Renegade CSM at that point?

What about Fabious Bile? He's now a hired hit-man who will align himself with other factions so long as he gets geneseed and "experiments" as payment. Is he then a Renegade or is he still a Traitor Legionaire?

Semantics, i suppose, but if GW is going to split Traitor Legions from Renegade Chaos Space Marines, it suddenly becomes VERY important, no?

Kharn, Lucius, Typhus and Ahriman still are largely only seen with members of their own legion, so I'd put them in with them. Fabius Bile goes where he can get the most torture done, he's not affiliated with one group anymore, so he's renegade. If they're splitting the codices completely, then we might actually see a few more Chaos characters, which would be pretty cool. Or DOOMRIDER might come back...

The point is that if they make a new Codex for the Legions, they will have two versions of the same special characters. That is why in my opinion, the new codex will replace the old one. Who is the most infamous Warlord of the World Eaters? That would be Kharn the Betrayer. He may not be the overall leader of his Legion. He may of splintered off from the majority of the Legion but he still associates himself with the Legion and wears their heraldry. Same with Typhus - he may have left the majority of the Deathguard but he is still one of the strongest Death Guard Lords and leads a large contingent of Death Guard into battle. Same goes for Luscious and Ahrimon. If Ahrimon is going to battle, it is likely that the majority of his trusted advisors are going to be from his Legion that were cast out with him and the vast majority of his foot soldiers will be the Thousand Sons troopers (or what is left of them). GW has consistantly used Renegade Marines to be Traitors since the Horus Heresy. Examples of that would be Honsou of the Imperial Fists now Iron Warriors, Huron Blackheart (formerly Astral Claws), etc.

kronk wrote:

Semantics, i suppose, but if GW is going to split Traitor Legions from Renegade Chaos Space Marines, it suddenly becomes VERY important, no?

The line I've always imagined this as is "heresy era Traitor Legionnaires" and "post-heresy traitors", those marines of the original Legions versus those marines that turned traitor after the Codex Astartes was implemented.

I'd be livid if they didn't bring the old SC's across into a Legion codex. If they wrote Kharn, Lucy, Typhus, Ahriman and Abby off as just being renegades and made up a load of new guys I think i'd actually stick to the old dex.

If Kharn can't lead my World Eaters, I'm not putting up with Brian the Blood thirsty with his Skull axe, skull pistol and his optional skull pony mount. I'd rather use the existing dex than put up with that.

Fabius, Huron and any of the others, maybe Cypher and Doomrider would make sense in a rengade book. The big 4 and Abby wouldn't.

Gorechild wrote:I'd be livid if they didn't bring the old SC's across into a Legion codex. If they wrote Kharn, Lucy, Typhus, Ahriman and Abby off as just being renegades and made up a load of new guys I think i'd actually stick to the old dex.

If Kharn can't lead my World Eaters, I'm not putting up with Brian the Blood thirsty with his Skull axe, skull pistol and his optional skull pony mount. I'd rather use the existing dex than put up with that.

Fabius, Huron and any of the others, maybe Cypher and Doomrider would make sense in a rengade book. The big 4 and Abby wouldn't.

I get what you're saying, but they'd still have to have some progression in the story/characters. Alternatively, being able to rotate people a bit more and focus on some of the other well known characters not already in the codex. If the storyline evolves and the game doesn't represent that, it would be even worse.

I would absolutely refuse to have Honsou leading my Iron Warriors. I like him just fine in the books, but I would rather home brew my own special character before including him in it.

Gorechild wrote:I'd be livid if they didn't bring the old SC's across into a Legion codex. If they wrote Kharn, Lucy, Typhus, Ahriman and Abby off as just being renegades and made up a load of new guys I think i'd actually stick to the old dex.

If Kharn can't lead my World Eaters, I'm not putting up with Brian the Blood thirsty with his Skull axe, skull pistol and his optional skull pony mount. I'd rather use the existing dex than put up with that.

Fabius, Huron and any of the others, maybe Cypher and Doomrider would make sense in a renegade book. The big 4 and Abby wouldn't.

If Fabius Bile works in a renegade book, then Kharn and Ahriman do too.

You can't cherrypick this. Kharn and Ahriman have no "real" ties to their original Legions.

Ahriman is effectively in control of a splinter faction of the Thousand Sons, who might sometimes come into contact with Magnus' followers. For the most part though, Ahriman's supporters are renegades who've started following Tzeentch. When Ahriman goes to war, it is with a host of Sorcerers and their mortal retainers. They are accompanied by the empty shells of their former brethren, in the form of the Legionnaires.

Kharn has no real ties to the World Eaters either, but for a different reason. The World Eaters, as a Legion, are dead. They're nothing but scattered warbands with lords whose main interest is in battering the others into submission and killing as many people as possible.
When Angron goes to war, it is not with the World Eaters. It is with a host of Daemonic followers at his beck and call.

Of the original Legions, very few are still "intact" to the point where they operate in warbands solely formed of their own brothers. Those are the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Black Legion, and MAYBE the Alpha Legion.

Again, GW will do whatever they think makes the most business sense. If they think a Legions codex is the way to go and want to bring the Kharn character into it, then that's what they'll do. Any issues can be solved with a single FAQ release.

Nothing is set in stone...the fluff and background and the logic involved have changed a thousand times. It's all mutable according to the company's needs.

Ahriman's with a Thousand Sons warband. They may be renegades, but they're still Thousand Sons, thus would be using a variant of the Thousand Sons army list (if there would be any changes at all). Kharn's the same, he still chucks about with ex World Eaters, or extreme Khorne cultists. I think that a renegade codex would cover more of the middle ground of warbands, the guys that are more of raiders than cultists, thus why the extremists like Kharn would be in the Legion codex. That is if there even if two codexs. I don't see why you can't have one where the renegades are the default army and the legions are variant lists of it (ie like 3.5).
^^

Wyrmalla wrote:Ahriman's with a Thousand Sons warband. They may be renegades, but they're still Thousand Sons, thus would be using a variant of the Thousand Sons army list (if there would be any changes at all).

Except the "Thousand Sons army list" is based primarily upon Ahriman's warband as he and his Cabal are the most active.

Magnus doesn't lead his "faction" to war hardly at all, if ever, and when he does it's more of a Daemonic army than Thousand Sons. Just like Angron's.

Kharn's the same, he still chucks about with ex World Eaters, or extreme Khorne cultists. I think that a renegade codex would cover more of the middle ground of warbands, the guys that are more of raiders than cultists, thus why the extremists like Kharn would be in the Legion codex. That is if there even if two codexs. I don't see why you can't have one where the renegades are the default army and the legions are variant lists of it (ie like 3.5).
^^

That doesn't even make sense.

Kharn doesn't "chuck about" with anyone. He just shows up. He has no followers, he has no allegiances except to Khorne. He might as well be the Chaos version of Draigo for all the use he is to any kind of organizational ideas for how to do the Legion.

I'm inclined to believe GW will move the main 5 special characters to the Legion codex. Codex Chaos Legions doesn't have to represent the "Chaos Legions" so much as it can simply represent those most representative of the Legions outside of the eye of terror. Those 4 of the main 5 character are representative of the extremes of the worshipers of the Chaos gods, and to leave them out would put GW in a position where it would need to invent 4 new characters even more the ebodiement of their Chaos god... while justifying the characters closer affiliation with those who have no legion affiliation. I don't see that going well. Meanwhile, the Chaos Renegade codex would be screwed over, but it'd temporary. The second part of that is unlike the Legions book, Renegade are conceptually easier to write new character for, while Legions you will always be faced with "where have you been the last 10,000 years."

Legions are a relatively fixed and mature concept, waiting only for their rules to fully represent them. Renegades were something GW introduce to give Chaos room more flexibility for growth. Bogging down Renegades with characters more appropriate for the Legions, goes against that goal.

If Renegades in being updated incorporate aspect of Traitor guard, mutants, etc, that codex will need room for new characters.

Wyrmalla wrote:Ahriman's with a Thousand Sons warband. They may be renegades, but they're still Thousand Sons, thus would be using a variant of the Thousand Sons army list (if there would be any changes at all). Kharn's the same, he still chucks about with ex World Eaters, or extreme Khorne cultists. I think that a renegade codex would cover more of the middle ground of warbands, the guys that are more of raiders than cultists, thus why the extremists like Kharn would be in the Legion codex. That is if there even if two codexs. I don't see why you can't have one where the renegades are the default army and the legions are variant lists of it (ie like 3.5).
^^

But again, from what I gather, the Thousand Sons force Ahriman commanded was basically wiped out. Doesn't it make sense to move on to an emergent character from another chapter? The people central to the fiction when the Chaos dex comes out might not be the same characters that were central when the last one came out.

^^ As of the latest piece of fluff in the history of 40k Ahriman's leading a small coven of Thousand Sons sorcerors in his search for the Black Library. He eventually found a part of it to my recollection and is off plotting. This happened near the end of the current established timeline, so I don't see him going off on another tangent. Yes his personel coven was apparently destroyed in the Daemonfuge comic when he lost his ship, but that occurs before the 13th Black Crusade presumably. =/

Kanluwen wrote:
Of the original Legions, very few are still "intact" to the point where they operate in warbands solely formed of their own brothers. Those are the Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Black Legion, and MAYBE the Alpha Legion.

I see what you did there.

And I will NOT be happy if GW decides to go down the Mustache Twirling Psychotic Billion Slaughtering Chaos Worshiping Only route with the Alpha Legion...

Wyrmalla wrote:^^ As of the latest piece of fluff in the history of 40k Ahriman's leading a small coven of Thousand Sons sorcerors in his search for the Black Library. He eventually found a part of it to my recollection and is off plotting. This happened near the end of the current established timeline, so I don't see him going off on another tangent. Yes his personel coven was apparently destroyed in the Daemonfuge comic when he lost his ship, but that occurs before the 13th Black Crusade presumably. =/

Fair enough, but as a general point, there will have to be SOME shift in characters and while that means potentially giving up someone you really love, overall it's probably healthy.

There is a thing about Chaos threads: After page 2, nobody is interested in news&rumours anymore and reiterates the same old I-hate-the-old-Codex and fluff discussions as in every previous (locked) thread.

Kroothawk wrote:There is a thing about Chaos threads: After page 2, nobody is interested in news&rumours anymore and reiterates the same old I-hate-the-old-Codex and fluff discussions as in every previous (locked) thread.

I'm more interested of where they find the rumours.....

Kroothawk wrote:There is a thing about Chaos threads: After page 2, nobody is interested in news&rumours anymore and reiterates the same old I-hate-the-old-Codex and fluff discussions as in every previous (locked) thread.

Yup. We chaos players are pretty fanatical about everything