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I don't have any dreads in any of my armies bar my Blood Ravens Ironclad, and even then I rarely use it.

Vindicare, DK, some pallies, interceptor and Draigo. If I need to I add.in my BR stormraven and Libby. To tell the facts I haven't played a game with my Interceptors, Dreadknight or my 5 new pallies. My first 5 man was split into a 3 man and 2 man untill recent additions. All with halberds and stormbolers so no wounds crap. My new squad on the other hand was built for competition so, yes, wound shenanigans, but I still needed those weapons anyway.

DarkHound wrote:What does it mean then?

That their 'noughts are "rare". It does not mean they are rarely fielded. They could field them all the time, just due to their superior GK-ness they dont lose as many compared to other SM.

Note: before you get all excited, I'm not claiming this is true. Just showing that this is possible (and doesnt have any evidence either way) is enough to show H0 (you cant just leap from rare -> rarely fielded) hasnt been disproven, so it stays as the current conclusion.

So it is as fluffy to field X GK noughts as it is to field X SM noughts

My own complaints about GK's stem from being a Daemon player who faces d-bags who list tailor, to broken obnoxious filth like;
- Crowe + Libby
- 2x Techies w/grenades 'o win
- 5 man wound-allocated Paladins (2x psycannons, bro banner, but no apothecary)
- 2x 8 man Purifyers with all the bells and wistles (2x psycannons, 5x halberds, 1x hammer in rhinos)
- 10 man intercepter squad for quake shinanigans & speed boost
- Stormraven
- 3x psyflemen

That supposed to be some sort of list? It's actually pretty terrible or are you just saying different equipement in the codex?

I actually play daemons now as well as GK and at the points that allow all that, I'm actually pretty sure even fateweaver lists can walk right over that thing if it was some sort of list. 1 squad, at most 2 of interceptors combat squad won't wreck my deployment. tarpit/shoot the psyflemen. blessing of khorne will still hold out vs purifiers. Flamers and fiends also will do very well vs GK. are you just using some sort of troops heavy build or something?

That's actually kind of a ligher list to hack through and there's plenty of weaknesses in there. If it was really tailored to you, you'd see about 30 interceptors (combat squadded into 5's), a grand master or two for scouting, and several squads of strike squads. Whole map warp quake. GG!

Gk are broken but not unbeatable. They have no weakness besides luck and the person playing them. Lure their squads around, hold units in reserve to deny kp and contest objectives last minute, etc. a true strategist can still beat a person using the most broken of armies it just is rare. I will never play as grey knights as long as I live because they have abilities that feel like I'm cheating when it's actually legal

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Gk are broken but not unbeatable. They have no weakness besides luck and the person playing them. Lure their squads around, hold units in reserve to deny kp and contest objectives last minute, etc. a true strategist can still beat a person using the most broken of armies it just is rare. I will never play as grey knights as long as I live because they have abilities that feel like I'm cheating when it's actually legal

And beside the part where they cost a lot but still die like normal marines.

Logic doesnt matter when hate is involved. Ig players, orks, ba, sw etc all dont have any room to talk since they all spent time as the number one hated dex for being "op." It hasn't changed. The newer codexes will typically have a higher volume of players.

Orks were OP at one point? When?

DarkHound wrote:What does it mean then?

maybe it means exactly what it is saying on its face value.


"GKs don't like being interrned in Dreadnoughts" might just mean exaclty that. They don't like it.

I don't like doing homework. Doesn't mean I only do a tiny bit of my Homework, I do all of it plus extra credit when I can.


Just because someone doesn't like doing something doesn't mean they won't do it because it is unpleasent. They will still do it because it is a necessity to combat Chaos, and if that means subjecting more of their brothers to an untasteful fate(till they do die) then so be it.

Anvildude wrote:Orks were OP at one point? When?

End 4th early 5th. Read up on nob bikers

And they are still a good competitive army.

Kan Wall, Green Tide, and Speed Freeks are all very viable.


Its a great codex overall. GKs just made Diversified nobs a gamble to take. it doesn't matter, "Moar Boyz" and "Moar lootas" still solves 95% of the problems orks can face and the 5% that can't be solved by them aren't really problems.

I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor applies here. You guys are saying they wrote something essentially meaningless. It has no impact on the person using the book. Explaining why they even wrote that sentence becomes complicated. If the rarity of Dreadnoughts refers to how they're deployed, as it implies, it is easy to explain why they wrote it.

Grey Templar wrote:And they are still a good competitive army.

Kan Wall, Green Tide, and Speed Freeks are all very viable.


Its a great codex overall. GKs just made Diversified nobs a gamble to take. it doesn't matter, "Moar Boyz" and "Moar lootas" still solves 95% of the problems orks can face and the 5% that can't be solved by them aren't really problems.

The other 5% can be solved by yet moar boys and lootas.


Remember greenskins, if a problem arises ask yourself these questions.


1
Can more boys solve it?
A----->If yes, get more boys. Proceed to 2.
B----->If no go to 2.


2 Will more Lootas solve it?
A-----»If yes get more Lootas. Proceed to 1A.
B-----»If no, then you are wrong!!

:

DarkHound wrote:I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor applies here. You guys are saying they wrote something essentially meaningless. It has no impact on the person using the book. Explaining why they even wrote that sentence becomes complicated. If the rarity of Dreadnoughts refers to how they're deployed, as it implies, it is easy to explain why they wrote it.

Flavour. Nothing more.

DarkHound wrote:I'm pretty sure Occam's Razor applies here. You guys are saying they wrote something essentially meaningless. It has no impact on the person using the book. Explaining why they even wrote that sentence becomes complicated. If the rarity of Dreadnoughts refers to how they're deployed, as it implies, it is easy to explain why they wrote it.

No, it adds flavour to the army. Seen Sagas, where how you are supposed to play hasnt any bearing in the actual rules of the game? Flavour. It means that, if you want, you can say that "this" GK army has no access to 'noughts - no battle brother has been recovered intact enough in centuries, or you dont feel the battles are worth waking your brothers, etc.

There is NO IMPLICATION apart from what you have made up out of whole cloth that dreadnoughts are rarely fielded. None. You are making things up to fit your preconceived ideas about the army, and when this is found wanting are falling back and back, desperate to not admit that you just got it wrong.

Flavour makes suggestions about gameplay, but not requirements. How is that different than fluff?

Draigo wrote:Logic doesnt matter when hate is involved. Ig players, orks, ba, sw etc all dont have any room to talk since they all spent time as the number one hated dex for being "op." It hasn't changed. The newer codexes will typically have a higher volume of players.

This is the expected path this thread would take, not to call you out Draigo, but this thread has just turned into a war of "OP!" cryings

DarkHound wrote:Flavour makes suggestions about gameplay, but not requirements. How is that different than fluff?

It makes suggestions on how you COULD run a game, and gives you something you COULD hang your reasoning on. However it does not ACTUALLY say that you rarely field GK dreads meaning it is still no more or less fluffy to field 0, 3 or 6 dreadnoughts. However you have a reason you can run 6 that is fluffy, and you can fluff why you arent taking any.

They could take away a significant chunk of GK players if they made an actual Inquisition codex.

I know I don't use any Grey Knights in my 'Grey Knight' army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Flavour makes suggestions about gameplay, but not requirements. How is that different than fluff?

It makes suggestions on how you COULD run a game, and gives you something you COULD hang your reasoning on. However it does not ACTUALLY say that you rarely field GK dreads meaning it is still no more or less fluffy to field 0, 3 or 6 dreadnoughts. However you have a reason you can run 6 that is fluffy, and you can fluff why you arent taking any.

That's exactly what the fluff does. You can explain scenarios where Grey Knights would field a mass of Dreadnoughts, the same way you could explain a Tyranid and Sisters of Battle team-up. The fluff never forces you to do anything, but it does imply how an army should play. In this case, it implies that Grey Knights don't take Dreadnoughts, and instead spam Deepstriking Terminators and Strike Squads. You don't have to play like that, but that's what GW's writers imagined. That's what is written in the fluff. That's what is fluffy.

No, it does not imply that GKs dont field Dreadnoughts. It does no such thing. Stop making things up to fit your preconceived notions of how an army should be played.

It is not "what is written in the fluff", because you cannot find anything that is *actually* written. Presumably you cant, given you've yet to find anything...

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it does not imply that GKs dont field Dreadnoughts. It does no such thing. Stop making things up to fit your preconceived notions of how an army should be played.

It is not "what is written in the fluff", because you cannot find anything that is *actually* written. Presumably you cant, given you've yet to find anything...

Do you want me to repost all the stories of Grey Knights Deepstriking in at the last second to save the day? It's pretty darn well established that Grey Knights Deepstrike in with Terminators and Strike Squads. The body of work says this is called "the fluff" and it implies what the writers intended. Amongst all these stories, there's a little paragraph which says that Dreadnoughts are rare. As we just went over, the least complicated interpretation of that paragraph is the right one; Dreadnoughts are rare, meaning rarely seen on the battlefield. Any other meaning has no impact on the player, which draws into question why it was written at all.

I've recently decided to go for GK, and my reason being I wanted the smallest army I can for 40k in terms of models. Why? I play Skaven in WHFB, thats 300 models + in 2000pt games that I'm still finishing painting!

Gogo Paladin 13man 2kpts!

Darkhound - do we go over where you have simply made things up, again, to suit your preconceived, NARROW notions of fluff?

One that is contradicted, repeatedly, by the very games design studio who "own" said fluff?

They are rare. This does not mean they are rarely FIELDED. One is true. the other is a lie, concocted by you to support a position that has been disproven over and over and over again.

Gosh I want to field 6 psifleman dreds. Main reason for me is I enjoy modeling and painting dreds. I just don't consider critiques that use the word fluff. It doesn't give hard enough evidence against my ideas of fun in the game.

Most dreads I've ever fielded was 4 but Idk vs some lists it just doesnt seem to always cut it. So in some lists dropped one for a vindicare. I guess after playing with the new dex since it dropped Im not in shock an awe of the psyfleman.

Maybe its the lists Im playing but outside of the de or cron skimmer spam they havent be overwhelming. I know math says theyre just outstanding but id trade them for long fangs anyday.

I started when the new GK codex came out and i was given advice that they were fairly easy to play and a good choice to start with in the learning/painting department.

After playing a game or two and cleaning up my friends fields with out a problem i found it unfair and really not fun to play so i dropped it and picked up newcrons cause i saw them to bit more balanced and interesting to play.

People say they are easy to paint but they are far more detailed and difficult to paint than any other marines.

Deadshot wrote:People say they are easy to paint but they are far more detailed and difficult to paint than any other marines.

But saying that, you can have far less models to paint for 2000 points than most other armies.

ph34r wrote:1. It's the bandwagon army right now
2. They sound super-strong, appealing to noobs fluff-wise
3. They actually are a strong book

Number 2 isn't exactly correct. I mean sure there are people who do that. But what really appeals to new players is the entry price, which for GK is a lot cheaper than most other armies. All plastic models, all of which are pretty sweet, and the Dollars-to-Points ratio can be VERY high for them, when compared to Tau, Orks, or the real offenders here, SoB.

I'm a new guy, and while the GKs seem pretty cool, they just don't hit my buttons the way the Tau and Blood Angels do. If Sisters were a feasible army for me, money-wise, I'd definitely play them. Also they deserve a Codex. :(

My chaos daemons army has a grand total of 31 models to paint at 1500 points (quite a few count as models from fantasy because there was no model)

My GK army at 1500 had 32 modesl to paint and yes, it took alot longer due to alot of detailing and weapon load outs. Daemons just have alot less wargear options to put together even for kitted out bloodcrushers. Banners are so much easier to slap together than a bunch of smaller parts for all the different guns/nfw's.