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DarkHound wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your contention is they have less candidates? Prove it.

Book, page and paragraph. Oh wait - that's the point. There isnt. Canon is silent on this entirely

Page 32 of Codex: Daemon Hunters wrote:It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services to the Emperor - they hope only to rest in the cool cark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely enough that to continue in the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead.

So the basis for your entire argument is wrong, and mine is right. Do you want me to cover everything else you wrote?

The king of leaping to wrong conclusions strikes again!

I asked you to prove they were *more* rare, to support your pulled-out-of-thin-air contention that GK have half the dreadnoughts of a normal SM force.

Given the above quote doesnt prove what you think it does, I'd love for you to address the rest - it should be interesting, to say the least.

Also - it wasnt even "the" basis for my argument, but A basis. As in, even if you can prove (which you cant) that GK only have 2 per 100, this doesnt account for the situation where your 1500 arent the whole battle...as people have been saying all along.

GKs don't like being put in dreadnoughts 'cos they're dirty cowards who prefer to slumber in Titan's tombs. Apparently they have to give their consent before being interred in a Dread:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty68Blx7oWk

Henners91 wrote:GKs don't like being put in dreadnoughts 'cos they're dirty cowards who prefer to slumber in Titan's tombs. Apparently they have to give their consent before being interred in a Dread:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty68Blx7oWk

As does any other Space Marine. Your point is?

So let me get this straight. The Grey Knights have motive for having less Dreadnoughts. The Grey Knights say that their Dreadnoughts are very rare. You want it to say "they are more rare than other chapters." If you go look, no other codex refers to their Dreadnoughts as "rare." That older codex worked in conjunction with the other books, a Daemon Hunters player would be aware of precedent set by Codex: Space Marine. If the first book doesn't say Dreadnoughts are uncommon, and this one calls them rare, they must be more rare than the first one.

My logistics regarding the saturation of Dreadnoughts was an educated guess. We can know the maximum capacity of human supply by how well equipped the Space Marines are. Grey Knights are great and all, but why would the Imperium hold out on their front-line elites just to make their smallest body better in only comparison? The Grey Knights have access to better technology against daemons, but the ability to produce Dreadnoughts is not something exclusive to them.

Deadshot wrote:

DarkHound wrote: When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most.

Considering the Ultramarines 9th has 7 dreadnoughts, and are the priciple.upholders of the codex astartes, what you have said is false.

You'll notice the 9th company is a reserve company. not an active one. The 9th is the first graduation of the Scout company, and so they're called to smaller conflicts closer to home. They have access to more Dreadnoughts because they're closest to the armoury. And besides, you'll notice other companies have proportionally less Dreadnoughts.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Henners91 wrote:GKs don't like being put in dreadnoughts 'cos they're dirty cowards who prefer to slumber in Titan's tombs. Apparently they have to give their consent before being interred in a Dread:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty68Blx7oWk

As does any other Space Marine. Your point is?

'My point is', Rudey McRude, that generally Dreadnoughts are honoured heroes who continue to fight in the Emprah's name. I understand that they're not 'woken up' quite as much so that they might slumber... I read somewhere about them 'deserving' 'some' rest, but it's unique to the GKs to actually have Marines with the attitude 'I would rather die' than be a Dreadnought.

I apologise utterly that you did not understand my point in this heated debate about our precious 'plastic spayss mahns'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also never heard of consent being required in other chapters...

Henners91 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Henners91 wrote:GKs don't like being put in dreadnoughts 'cos they're dirty cowards who prefer to slumber in Titan's tombs. Apparently they have to give their consent before being interred in a Dread:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty68Blx7oWk

As does any other Space Marine. Your point is?

'My point is', Rudey McRude, that generally Dreadnoughts are honoured heroes who continue to fight in the Emprah's name. I understand that they're not 'woken up' quite as much so that they might slumber... I read somewhere about them 'deserving' 'some' rest, but it's unique to the GKs to actually have Marines with the attitude 'I would rather die' than be a Dreadnought.

How about we tone down the hostility a notch? You can feel free to hit ThisShouldn'tBeHere for ten minutes or so, we'll still be waiting. Great way to expel the angst, that.

No, really, what's your point? Not wanting do be placed in a dreadnought doesn't equate to not accepting that it's your fate should you become severely wounded.

Besides, you might want to remove the reference to non-family friendly web pages. Or you might not. I'm not going to stop expressing my opinion anyway.

Henners91 wrote:I've also never heard of consent being required in other chapters...

Life is on a strict consensual-only basis. If the marine objected I doubt his brothers would Dreadnoughtify him.

Darkhound - would that be why every single one of the GK doesnt have a SB and power weapon then. Oh wait, they do. They get better equipment by default.

Apparently that extends to everything BUT getting more dreadnoughts, if they needed them, in your world.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Darkhound - would that be why every single one of the GK doesnt have a SB and power weapon then. Oh wait, they do. They get better equipment by default.

Apparently that extends to everything BUT getting more dreadnoughts, if they needed them, in your world.

They aren't equipped with a Power Weapon. They are equipped with Nemesis Force Weapons, designed specifically to kill daemons. The fact that they have Storm Bolters has more to do with how they are deployed than how advanced the equipment is. Storm Bolters provide mobility in close quarters over a standard Bolter. You'll notice that Space Marine chapters can also deploy shock troops equipped with Storm Bolters through Sternguard, Command Squads, and Honor Guard. However, Codex Space Marines are expected to face a larger variety of opponents so aren't restricted to the more expensive Storm Bolter by default. (Expense in this case justified by the logistics of bringing more ammunition; the Storm Bolter is only effective by sheer volume of fire.)

EDIT: Let me keep clarifying, since I have a feeling I'll need it. Storm Bolters would not be a good choice for an Imperial Fist force in a seige because they'd run through ammunition faster. The weapon is not automatically superior.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Life is on a strict consensual-only basis. If the marine objected I doubt his brothers would Dreadnoughtify him.

If a.marine is in a position to be interred he.isn't in a position to debate.it. If he ibjects later they may remove him dependent on things like current engagements and campaigns.

With the Grey Knights, there is no debate. They will let them slumber untill they are desperately need. They don't run crying for Brother Pius everytime Skarbramd raises his eyelids. If they have need of Dreadnoughts, they will have dreadnoughts. I have said it before and will say it again. No amount of personal discomfort gets in the way of the Mission.

They certainly DO NOT have a shortage of chassis. Not only do they have their own Forge World, but being next to Mars they can get gear directly from its source should the Steel Forge be insufficient.

Wow, GK are "dirty cowards" now? LOL. And I guess that's considered constructive criticism on here. Pretty hilarious actually. The fact that so many are upset about GK codex just doesn't seem justified to me. But hey to each there own.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Lobukia wrote:
Diverse Paladins to avoid wound allocation, well even Honour Guard (the overlooked, bypassed beauties of over costed) walk over them in CC at similar points

The no-invul-strike-after-the-Paladins Honour Guard "walk over them in CC"?

Let's assume that it's 7 Honor Guard vs. 5 Paladins (slight cost advantage for the Honor Guards). Let's also assume that no one has been shot anywhere, and that no one's charging.


4 Paladins hit first with Halberds. Hammerhand goes off. 8 WS5 attacks, 5.333... hits, 3.555... wounds, rounded to 4. 3 remaining Honour Guard strike back, 9 attacks. 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 rounded to 2 wounds after invulns. Daemonhammer strikes, 2 attacks, 1.333... hits, 1.111 wound, rounded to 1. 1 Honour Guard dies.

Final tally: 1 Dead Paladin versus 5 dead Honour Guard. Honour Guard gets walked over by Paladins.

Around here, people mix up the weaponry on their Paladins, almost always use an Apothecary and a Banner, and usually 1 DHammer... if you see my post, I'm talking about diverse Paladins to play the wound allocation game.

Squad of 5, comes in at 430... while a fairly maxed out HG squad of 10 with a champion and a banner is at 430

Now I should have said "can walk all over", granted... but charging HG squad losses aren't so bad. I usually see on Apoth Banner and at least 1 Daemon Hammer or Warding Stave in a squad, so at worst/best that's 6 Halberd attacks... 3 of which hit, 2 of which wound (-2 HG). Then 5 HG with PS get 25 attacks, 2 with RB get 8 attacks, and the Champ gets 6 attacks... that's 12 PS hits, 4 RB hits, and the champ gets 4 PS hits... for 8 PS and 2 RB hits... 10 saves which yields 6 wounds (1 dead Paladin, probably Apoth in this scenario, and the rest hurting)... DH kills one HG in return, and we go to second round, 7 HG vs 4 Paladins. 3 Halberds kill 2 HG (say RBs this time), 5 HG +Champ, through out 25 attacks, with 12 hits, 6 saves, 4 wounds, game over...

Even giving the DH its kill, that's 4 Honour Guard and a Champ left standing (IF the HG charged)... with me rounding more often to Paladins' favor than not, and assuming that no shots on the charge had any affect and that DW for the champ always missed... so as I SHOULD have said, even HG can walk over Paladins

Darkhound - I guess you should refresh your memory on what a Nemesis Force Weapon is. Hint, the words "power weapon" appear in the rules.

Are you seriously trying to claim that GK, who have their own "FW" AND are sited pretty damn close to Mars, DONT have the best equipment? And can get pretty much anything they want, anytime?

Gosh you get funnier...

Lobuukla - erm, WS5 vs WS4, so 4 hit. Rarely see apoths, certainly not on 5 paladins - waste of points. You may see a bro-banner, at which point those are up to 6 hits. 4 dead HG

nosferatu1001 wrote:Darkhound - I guess you should refresh your memory on what a Nemesis Force Weapon is. Hint, the words "power weapon" appear in the rules.

Are you seriously trying to claim that GK, who have their own "FW" AND are sited pretty damn close to Mars, DONT have the best equipment? And can get pretty much anything they want, anytime?

Gosh you get funnier...

So the rules perfectly represent the fluff when you want them to now? Nemesis Force Weapons share few fluff similarities to a standard Power Sword. But I'll just borrow a page from your book: cite me a page that says that Grey Knights always have better equipment. I'll just put the burden of proof on you. Anything short of a real page and you're just misconstruing tangential evidence.

Oh gosh....

Right - I've not said that rules DONT perfectly represent fluff. Again you are making things up. Dont. It makes things a lot simpler.

I also dont need to prove they always have better equipment - i am proving that YOUR assertion, that they DONT have access to as much 'nought gear, is false because you have no supporting evidence.

You seem to have made a critical failure in your understanding here - you have made a number of claims, which I have disproven. Repeatedly. My claims are neutral (that it is no more or less fluffy to field 3 GK 'noughts at 1500 than it is to field 3 SM ones, etc) and so are the default position. H0, to borrow from the scientific method.

So by disproving your claims I have shown there is insufficient evidence to move away from H0.

So, if you want to continue with your rage, YOU are the one required to show proof. Actual proof would be useful, as opposed to something you simply made up / came up with based on an invalid logical leap.

or not. I dont really care what YOU think is fluffy - because the games designers, who rank SLIGHTLY higher in my opinion than you do, have already told us what is fluffy.

You've never refuted my claims. You've never provided evidence to the contrary. What you have done is ask for proof. Let's even ignore my projections of deployment. Let's talk exclusively about what the book says. You still haven't answered my point: "That older codex worked in conjunction with the other books, a Daemon Hunters player would be aware of precedent set by Codex: Space Marine. If the first book doesn't say Dreadnoughts are uncommon, and this one calls them rare, they must be more rare than the first one."

It has never been a question of having the chassis. It is a question of having willing candidates. Grey Knights would rather die, for reasons you cannot refute, than be entombed in a Dreadnought. The book itself calls the Dreadnoughts rare because of the same reason.

What more evidence do you want than the codex saying Grey Knights rarely field Dreadnoughts?

And, again, preferring to die does not mean that they won't accept Dreadnoughtification, it just means they hope to avoid it.

Dreadnoughtification......LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLhDf7XdgQc
just...gonna...leave this here...

Darkound - I HAVE refuted your claims. You made leaps whcih are not supported. You have NO evidence, meaning your claims are dismissed - do you understand basic scientific method? The base assumption you make is you are wrong, you then find evidence to refute that. You havent found any evidence - you have found that they dont *like* being made into Dreadnoughts, but you havent found any positive evidence to actually support your claims.

"Grey Knights would rather die,, for reasons you cannot refute, than be entombed in a Dreadnought"

So that means they wont accept being turned into a dreadnought? Or are you simply making things up again by leaping to conclusion? Lets have a look at your next sentence to work out....

"What more evidence do you want than the codex saying Grey Knights rarely field Dreadnoughts?"

Ah, whoops, you did it again. Does it say they rarely FIELD dreadnoughts, or dreadnoughts are rare? Do you understand the difference, or are you yet again failing to realise the conclusions you are jumping to?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Henners91 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Henners91 wrote:GKs don't like being put in dreadnoughts 'cos they're dirty cowards who prefer to slumber in Titan's tombs. Apparently they have to give their consent before being interred in a Dread:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights_Dreadnought#.Ty68Blx7oWk

As does any other Space Marine. Your point is?

'My point is', Rudey McRude, that generally Dreadnoughts are honoured heroes who continue to fight in the Emprah's name. I understand that they're not 'woken up' quite as much so that they might slumber... I read somewhere about them 'deserving' 'some' rest, but it's unique to the GKs to actually have Marines with the attitude 'I would rather die' than be a Dreadnought.

How about we tone down the hostility a notch? You can feel free to hit ThisShouldn'tBeHere for ten minutes or so, we'll still be waiting. Great way to expel the angst, that.

No, really, what's your point? Not wanting do be placed in a dreadnought doesn't equate to not accepting that it's your fate should you become severely wounded.

Besides, you might want to remove the reference to non-family friendly web pages. Or you might not. I'm not going to stop expressing my opinion anyway.

Henners91 wrote:I've also never heard of consent being required in other chapters...

Life is on a strict consensual-only basis. If the marine objected I doubt his brothers would Dreadnoughtify him.

Well I was ninja'd before I edited it as a result of the late arrival of good judgment

My point is that there's been an argument a-waging (when I've stuck my head into this hate-filled pit of nerd rage) about just how numerical GK Dreadnoughts are, so I tossed in this bit of fluff and my feelings toward it. Perfectly legitimate.

Henners91 wrote:
My point is that there's been an argument a-waging (when I've stuck my head into this hate-filled pit of nerd rage) about just how numerical GK Dreadnoughts are, so I tossed in this bit of fluff and my feelings toward it. Perfectly legitimate.

Fair enough, I guess.

DarkHound wrote:What more evidence do you want than the codex saying Grey Knights rarely field Dreadnoughts?

Hell, I'd settle for just that. But it doesn't.

It really doesn't.

I know people don't like being proven wrong on the internet but when you hang onto a point this long, without a shred of evidence, you start to make yourself look a little silly.

Well, even sillier than arguing about toy soldiers is in the first place.

do you understand basic scientific method? Wahahahahaha now that is funny, I'm sorry but it just is.

here's your problem

DarkHound wrote:The Grey Knights have motive for having less Dreadnoughts.

This is true, the GKs do have a motive for having less Dreadnoughts on a personal level. but the chapter as a whole may not. Dreadnoughts are a valuable tool in continuing the fight.

The Grey Knights say that their Dreadnoughts are very rare.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that having a force of 6 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

Its been said alot, but I'll say it again.

The battle represented on the table top may just be a portion of a larger one. It could be a massive portion of the chapter spearheading an invasion or a defense.


The only possable way 6 dreadnoughts could be unfluffy is if you could prove that there are less then 6 total GK dreadnoughts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, whoops, you did it again. Does it say they rarely FIELD dreadnoughts, or dreadnoughts are rare? Do you understand the difference, or are you yet again failing to realise the conclusions you are jumping to?

If Dreadnoughts are rarely fielded, then the effect is that they'd rarely be on the board. If Dreadnoughts are rare, the effect is that they'd rarely be on the board.

Grey Templar wrote:The only possable way 6 dreadnoughts could be unfluffy is if you could prove that there are less then 6 total GK dreadnoughts.

No, actually that's not what fluffy means. For instance if I have Tzeentchian Sorcerers at the head of a World Eaters army that is unfluffy. Could it happen? Oh, certainly, but I'd have to bend the fluff to make it make sense.

Warhammer 40k is vague with a purpose; anything is possible. It is possible for Grey Knights to employ Dreadnoughts in a phalanx. However, given what we know about how they fight and their ideology, that would be a rare event since it goes against their cannon. That is the definition of unfluffy. The cannon states they Deepstrike on to targets to engage in rapid warfare. It states that they hate becoming Dreadnoughts (and Walrus said, life is consensual) so they are rare. Someone who wanted to play Grey Knights for their fluff would employ Deepstriking Terminators and Strike Squads, because that's what their fluff is about.

A single game is the only thing you get to experience. Regardless of what you imagine is going on around it, the only thing that exists to along-side or against the fluff is the one you can see.

If you want to say that anything that can possibly exist is fluffy, I can direct you to any number of fan-fiction sites and you'll see just how long that attitude lasts. Chaos Grey Knights, sheesh...

It seems this has been derailed.

But on the topic of fluffiness and such,

I sometimes think we all forget the basics of Warhammer 40k as a tabletop game.

The battles our little armies fight are recreations of pivitol moments in the games "history".

It is completely fluffy for someone to use several Grey Knight dreads, because as far as the game "encourages", that particular battle involved that many dreads.

On the otherside of the "fluff coin" I don't think its fluffy to use named ICs. To think that Dante, Draigo, He'Stan, Kantor or Grimnar are at the center of every engagement involving their chapters is silly.

Not so. Playing with those.named characters is essentially a.narrative. You are playing the battles they were involved in.

Grey Templar wrote:here's your problem

DarkHound wrote:The Grey Knights have motive for having less Dreadnoughts.

This is true, the GKs do have a motive for having less Dreadnoughts on a personal level. but the chapter as a whole may not. Dreadnoughts are a valuable tool in continuing the fight.

The Grey Knights say that their Dreadnoughts are very rare.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that having a force of 6 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

Its been said alot, but I'll say it again.

The battle represented on the table top may just be a portion of a larger one. It could be a massive portion of the chapter spearheading an invasion or a defense.


The only possable way 6 dreadnoughts could be unfluffy is if you could prove that there are less then 6 total GK dreadnoughts.

I couldn't give three craps about if it's 'fluffy' or not fro GK's to field 6 dreads in an army. The glorious thing about the way GW has written their backstories is that they've left them so open-ended. ANYTHING can be made 'fluffy' even if by simply using 'counts as' to get your point across.

So GK's don't really like being intered into a dreadnought. All fine and dandy, it gives us a decent idea that GK's as a whole are likely to have less dreads overall to call upon at any one time. It doesn't mean there's NEVER been a single point in their history where they haven't fielded the bulk of their dreads at one time! If you want, you can always say your 6 dread list is a GK version of 'The Battle for Gate IX' at Ghattana Bay where no less than 17 dreadnoughts from just a few chapters. Who's to say that the only time Angron attacked a world with 12 'thirsters was at Aramageddon? Maybe your 6 dread force is a historical force that was hastily assembled to take on a conclave of daemon princes or a host of daemon engines?!



I think what's honestly annoying about facing 3 psyflemen is that litterly every single GK army you'll ever fight has 3x psyflemen spam! It's almost as predictable as the fact the Maple Leafs will miss the play-offs by a single point for the 5th year running!

Playing against 3x 'Y' unit every time you see army 'X' is boring as feth. It's why every fantasy player complained VC were OP before their new book - because you could predict that 99% of VC armies would be 2-3 ghoul hordes + gravestar + WS hat on caster lord hiding in the back... Boring after the 3rd game. Purely obnoxious once it's still all the rage almost a year later!


My own complaints about GK's stem from being a Daemon player who faces d-bags who list tailor, to broken obnoxious filth like;
- Crowe + Libby
- 2x Techies w/grenades 'o win
- 5 man wound-allocated Paladins (2x psycannons, bro banner, but no apothecary)
- 2x 8 man Purifyers with all the bells and wistles (2x psycannons, 5x halberds, 1x hammer in rhinos)
- 10 man intercepter squad for quake shinanigans & speed boost
- Stormraven
- 3x psyflemen

It's grossly effective no matter who you face and it's simply not fun in any way. There's no real effort on the GK player's part, just putting all the toys together with the simple goal of smashing face and roflstomping people in as few turns as possible.

GK's in general aren't a fun army to play against. Individual players can make the army fun to face, but so far, I've found those types of players to be fairly non-existant. When people are more concerned with winning first and formost, GK's are an easy to pick-up for cheap and have a much easier learning curve than say, DE or Orks or even SW's who require more cost to gain their 'easy mode' builds.

"If Dreadnoughts are rarely fielded, then the effect is that they'd rarely be on the board. If Dreadnoughts are rare, the effect is that they'd rarely be on the board."

Sorry, thats just rubbish as far as an argument goes. No logic there at all.

They are rare. Thats it. You cannot LEAP from that into saying they are rarely fielded. That statment lacks so much thought its incredible.

So - you have still failed to prove your case, so we're left with H0. It is no more or less fluffy to field 3 GK dreads as it is to field 3 SM dreads

"I think what's honestly annoying about facing 3 psyflemen is that litterly every single GK army you'll ever fight has 3x psyflemen spam"

Nope. Mine has 2 DKs, 2 termie squads, mordrak, a libby and a vindicare. I'll never use auto cannon dreads - too obvious, too dull

What does it mean then?