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DarkHound wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DarkHound quote cutting because theyre really clever! wrote: stuff

Yeah, dont quote crop. You failed to read the whole of a sentence and flew off on one. SLIGHTLY different. here

The quote I responded to implied that spamming Dreadnoughts was against known cannon. Walrus' response was that cannon is subjective, and even he will admit he was cheeky about it. Your response to that was a personal attack on the Blaktoof. Since then you've done very little except attack other posters while shouting "you can't prove they don't!"

OR dreadknights. Hence "read the whole of the sentence" rather than just flying off in a rage. Hence why your "clever" quote cropping isnt.

The point I've been making is that it is NOT AGAINST KNOWN CANON. Known canon is silent on the matter of dreadnoughts. Blaktoof also went from "GKs dont like being put into Dreadnoghts" (valid) to "GKs therefore never field large numbers of them!!!!" - which is an invalid conclusion to make, because it is not supported by anything, and certainly not that GK dont like being put in dreadnoughts. It is an illogical conclusion to make

You cannot prove, one way or the other, exactly how many dreadnoughts or dreadknights is fluffy or unfluffy, because fluff is silent. Meaning all you can fall back on is what allowed in the game.

Most lists I've seen have 3 at max, exactly how many was allowed in the previous codex. So, is 3 unfluffy?

All this talk of canon is so much like a religious argument, some people seem to think that the published, official word is holy writ or something! I have visions of some posters sat in spartan monk's cells poring over codeces under the light of tallow candles and raging against blasphemers who either have not read or have misinterpreted the holy word of Matt Ward/Robin Crudace, etc. Do they have sainted pictures of the blessed GW staffers on their walls, perhaps with haloes...

Personally I could not give a stuff about the canon beyond the very basic level. I certainly would not take it into direct account when designing a list. However, I do dislike spam armies and I would much rather fight with a good variety of troops against a good variety of troops. Purely personal opinion. Each to their own!

Oh I agree - i'm not a fan of spam. My lists generally have no more than 2 of something in it beyond troops, and troops I rarely get beyond 3 units

However shouting and kicking up that somsone is "unfluffy" for taking 3 dreadnoughts, when you have no evidence as to what is "fluffy" for a GK dreadnought or not, is just a poor argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

DarkHound quote cutting because theyre really clever! wrote: stuff

Yeah, dont quote crop. You failed to read the whole of a sentence and flew off on one. SLIGHTLY different. here

The quote I responded to implied that spamming Dreadnoughts was against known cannon. Walrus' response was that cannon is subjective, and even he will admit he was cheeky about it. Your response to that was a personal attack on the Blaktoof. Since then you've done very little except attack other posters while shouting "you can't prove they don't!"

OR dreadknights. Hence "read the whole of the sentence" rather than just flying off in a rage. Hence why your "clever" quote cropping isnt.

I don't quote crop because it is clever. Look at how messy this is. Couldn't I easily remove the first 2 quotes without losing any meaning? Anyway, Dreadknights were a topic I talked about. They don't make sense as they've been realized. You're also avoiding the point that you attack posters as often as you attack their argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The point I've been making is that it is NOT AGAINST KNOWN CANON. Known canon is silent on the matter of dreadnoughts. Blaktoof also went from "GKs dont like being put into Dreadnoghts" (valid) to "GKs therefore never field large numbers of them!!!!" - which is an invalid conclusion to make, because it is not supported by anything, and certainly not that GK dont like being put in dreadnoughts. It is an illogical conclusion to make

If they don't like making Dreadnoughts, it is logical to assume they don't have as many Dreadnoughts. Now let me show you why that means they can't field them in large numbers.

You cannot prove, one way or the other, exactly how many dreadnoughts or dreadknights is fluffy or unfluffy, because fluff is silent. Meaning all you can fall back on is what allowed in the game.

Most lists I've seen have 3 at max, exactly how many was allowed in the previous codex. So, is 3 unfluffy?

When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most. Assuming that the Grey Knights have even half that, they would need to commit the resources of 200 Marines to bring 3 or 4 Dreadnoughts. You can field a full Space Marine company (100+ Marines) and 4 Dreadnoughts for 2500 points. The Grey Knights, on the other hand, would need twice as many points to equal that. You're looking at a 4-5000 point army to realistically have 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So yes, an army consisting of 20 Purifiers and 3 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

Grey Templar wrote:I think Daemon players really can't specifically complain about GKs too much.

Having your entire army deep strike in is just horrible against most opponents, a tailored GK list really just kicks you while your down.

Daemons just need a new codex thats all.

As a Daemon player, I can tell you this idea that being forced to deep strike everything = daemons auto-suck theory is complete BS. We daemon players have learned how to make that into an advantage, and typically a big one at that!

Daemon players have every right to complain about GK's being so rediculously OTT against us specifically... It's not a case of GW just leaving it at 'sensible' rules like prefered enemy (daemons) and the daemonbane rule. But nope, they had to go and pretty much make it impossible for our entire codex to even reach the table by including non-sense like 12" warp quake zones/unit, dark ex able to nix everything under the sun and the like as well.
When you can take 30 models and block off pretty much an entire 6'x4' table with a silly psychic power, someone's really screwed up the system.

Devil Dog wrote:Spoof now I'm a troll. I think seeing 3 posts against GK in two weeks is kinda trolling. Getting everything from gambling crap, to all are just playing for the fluff. I'm sorry, but iits been said already. Just use the same post. Why the different ones? As well as the fact that people loose with GK. If its that op why have I seen three reports where necrons have handed them losses not to mention the reports where GK win but by the hair of their chinny chin chin.

7th ed Daemons would lose games as well, so would the 8th ed VC 'one list to rule them all' build. GK's getting beat doesn't prove the book is well balanced, just that the book isn't 100% 'idiot proof'.

GK's external balance sucks big time. They have rediculously OP counters that pretty much invalidate 3 entire codicies!
They get alot of what are essencially 'free' upgrades because they only work against a very small number of units in the game, but are utterly vicious against those targets.
They have wonky & easily spamed upgrades that can auto-win any assault.
They get what is effectively the 'Daemonic Possession' vehicle upgrade for only 1/4 of the 'normal' cost chaos vehicles pay, but only half the armies in the game can actually try to counter it.

And more besides. It's a powerful army that more 'point-and-click' than other books with fewer disadvantages than other books. I don't think they're on the same level as 7th ed Daemons, but they're easily comparable to 7th ed VC's & Dark Elves - a top tier army that is more obnoxious than fun and which leaves a bad taste in opponents' mouths.

That's a 'faildex' if ever there was one, just like the 3.5 Chaos or Craftworld books back in 3rd/4th.

When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most. Assuming that the Grey Knights have even half that, they would need to commit the resources of 200 Marines to bring 3 or 4 Dreadnoughts. You can field a full Space Marine company (100+ Marines) and 4 Dreadnoughts for 2500 points. The Grey Knights, on the other hand, would need twice as many points to equal that. You're looking at a 4-5000 point army to realistically have 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So yes, an army consisting of 20 Purifiers and 3 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

but then again I can always claim that my army was from the 1st generation of GK when they still had alot of legion influence and had yet to develop this dislike for dreads. In fact, they still wanted to be dreads since it was honored from the legions where they came from but GK have plenty of money to buy all those injured brothers big dreadnaught bodies.

"Hey techpriest, all those dread chassies going to Ultramar?"

"Yes, Inquisitor Lord"

"Well they aren't anymore. Here, sign this or I'll have this storm trooper kill you. Good."

"So where are these now going my lord?"

"Titan. Opps, I said too much." *snaps fingers* *blam blam blam* *blam* "Well at least his signature is still legible"

DarkHound wrote:I don't quote crop because it is clever. Look at how messy this is. Couldn't I easily remove the first 2 quotes without losing any meaning?

You quoted part of the sentence, but not the important part. Removing context. Which is a fairly important failing.

DarkHound wrote:If they don't like making Dreadnoughts, it is logical to assume they don't have as many Dreadnoughts.

Bzzzt, first failure in logic.

They dont like being entombed in dreadnoughts. True enough
To then assume that they then dont have as MANY dreadnoughts - how? A does not imply B, here.

Are they less likely to entomb a battle brother who would die otherwise? If you say "yes" - wheres your proof? If you say no - then assuming that they are only equally likely to end up dreadnought-able the only way they could have less, would be if they have fewer chassis to put them in. Now, the former assumption could be wrong - however nothing I;ve seen or read indicates that, however the latter requisite is unlikely - they are the GK, they have the best of everything (apart from melta weapons)

So - in order to make your proposition "logical", please show one of three things:

1) They dont entomb an otherwise dreadnought-able battle brother, preferring instead for him to die
2) They are less likely, on average, than any other marine chapter to end up "producing" dreadnoughtable battle brothers due to battle damage
3) They are so lacking in dreadnought chassis that they dont have enough spare to keep up the "production" rate of battle ready dreadnoughts

There could well be a 4th or 5th i've missed, but these seem the most likely.

DarkHound wrote:When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most.

Are GK a codex chapter? I thought they were one of the many examples that didnt follow it....

DarkHound wrote:Assuming that the Grey Knights have even half that, they would need to commit the resources of 200 Marines to bring 3 or 4 Dreadnoughts.

Again, big assumptions you are making here, without any proof.

Given a codex army can commit 6 dreadnoughts to the field without 100 marines, you are placing requirements on the GK that SM do not fall under.

DarkHound wrote:You can field a full Space Marine company (100+ Marines) and 4 Dreadnoughts for 2500 points. The Grey Knights, on the other hand, would need twice as many points to equal that. You're looking at a 4-5000 point army to realistically have 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So yes, an army consisting of 20 Purifiers and 3 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

Again, your conclusion is hideously illogical, even to the point of ignoring the designers statements about a 40k game

A 40k battle is not the battle entire. It really isnt. So those 20 purifiers and 3 dreads are a portion of the battle

So, again, to prove this configuration is "unfluffy" you are required to show that either:

1) This is the whole of the battle. Good luck proving that, given the games designers have contradicted this position
2) They never deploy 3 dreadnoughts to the same portion of the battle. Again, something other than a lack of canon would be useful here - you need to positively assert, as you are the one making the extraordinary statement.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think Daemon players really can't specifically complain about GKs too much.

Having your entire army deep strike in is just horrible against most opponents, a tailored GK list really just kicks you while your down.

Daemons just need a new codex thats all.

As a Daemon player, I can tell you this idea that being forced to deep strike everything = daemons auto-suck theory is complete BS. We daemon players have learned how to make that into an advantage, and typically a big one at that!

Daemon players have every right to complain about GK's being so rediculously OTT against us specifically... It's not a case of GW just leaving it at 'sensible' rules like prefered enemy (daemons) and the daemonbane rule. But nope, they had to go and pretty much make it impossible for our entire codex to even reach the table by including non-sense like 12" warp quake zones/unit, dark ex able to nix everything under the sun and the like as well.
When you can take 30 models and block off pretty much an entire 6'x4' table with a silly psychic power, someone's really screwed up the system.

Don't get me wrong, Daemons can still do quite well. Its just difficult to do with a forced constraint.


I actually find daemons to be tough opponents with the new GKs, IF the GKs don't Warp Quake the hell out of the game(see what I did there )

I think covering the board with Warp Quake is both bad sportsmenship and ineffective from a competitive viewpoint. It really only screws 1 army, and 1 army that isn't too common at that.


Warp Quake is good for stopping suicide Deep Strikers trying to do some damage early on.

If Warp Quake was completely removed from the GK codex, Daemons would be a very difficult fight.

For the sake of my sanity, I'll just drop the quote cropping issue.

The reason they don't want to be entombed in Dreadnoughts is because it keeps their name from being written on the wall. If they die, their name goes on the wall. They would rather die than be in a Dreadnought, thus they have less candidates.

The Codex Astartes is designed with the Imperium's production capacity in mind. It shows what a Space Marine army is realistically capable fielding given their infrastructure. Guilliman already took into account how many Dreadnoughts a Space Marine company could effectively field, who am I to argue?

I related the force discrepancy to points to give perspective, not to imply a battle of 40k represented the entirety of conflict. My point was this: regular Space Marines would bring 2 Dreadnoughts to a conflict the size of 2500 points, where Grey Knights would likely be incapable until the lore equivalent to 4000 due to the dispersion of Grey Knight forces.

Whether a single game is a small portion of larger conflict is entirely up to the players. As part of an escalating campaign, there could easily be scenarios where the Grey Knights field a phalanx of Dreadnoughts. However, the point of a fluffy army is that it never needs justification. You don't need to ask why these Khorne Berserkers are following Kharne. You do need to make a story for why Plague Marines are taking orders from Slaaneshi Princes.

However, the point of a fluffy army is that it never needs justification. You don't need to ask why these Khorne Berserkers are following Kharne. You do need to make a story for why Plague Marines are taking orders from Slaaneshi Princes.

I'm actually 180 degrees from you on that one. I think fluffy lists should usually involve some sort of back story that the player came up with. Regular lists are just people playing along and just follow the FoC without any background story.

If I went fully fluff, maybe my kreig guardsmen shouldn't have any valks. They perfer seige right? so it'd be hard pressed to say why my kreig air cav exists. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions. I feel as long as you can come up with a convincing story, then your list can be fluffy. Failure to make up a story = not fluffy. If you built the codex exactly,that in itself is probably fluffy, you just followed the cannon exactly instead of comming up with a fun story on your own.

Good example is the 9 something space wolf dreadnaught army that fought at the fang. There's definately precident. Who's to say the battle didn't happen out side of the centralized GK dreadnaught entombment factory? Or maybe it was a transport ship that was delivering several dreadnaughts from titan to various battle fronts and it just so happened to crash with 6 deads and their escort of bunch of knights?

Cuz the models are sick, except the dreadnight.

Here is justification. The Grey Knights do WHATEVER it takes to rid of Daemons. And I mean whatever. If that means teaming up with Eldar and Tau, so be it. If that means nuking an entire system, so be it. If that requires a phalanx of Dreadnoughts, SO BE IT. Those entombed within may dislike being entombed, and then awoken again, but personal discomfort holds no significance against the Mission. Even Daemonic pacts like using a Daemon's true name or having a Radical Inquisitor with Daemonhosts isn't out of the question.


No one gets in the way of the mission. Not an Ork Warlord. Not a chapter of space marines. Not a legion of Titans. Not Adeptus Custides Not even the Inquisition or the High Lords. If the High Lords told them to ignore Daemons and fight a Tyranid Hive Fleet instead, they would receive a Terminator sized middle finger. Grey Knights.answer to their Justicar, who answer to their Brother Captain, who anser to their Grand Master, who answers to the Chapter Lord AKA, Supreme Grand Master(Draigo). And he answers to.no one bar the God Emperor himself. The only thing that would distract them would be a direct assault on Terra or Titan, or the Emperor himself.

sudojoe wrote:

However, the point of a fluffy army is that it never needs justification. You don't need to ask why these Khorne Berserkers are following Kharne. You do need to make a story for why Plague Marines are taking orders from Slaaneshi Princes.

I'm actually 180 degrees from you on that one. I think fluffy lists should usually involve some sort of back story that the player came up with. Regular lists are just people playing along and just follow the FoC without any background story.

If I went fully fluff, maybe my kreig guardsmen shouldn't have any valks. They perfer seige right? so it'd be hard pressed to say why my kreig air cav exists. But hey, we're all entitled to our opinions. I feel as long as you can come up with a convincing story, then your list can be fluffy. Failure to make up a story = not fluffy. If you built the codex exactly,that in itself is probably fluffy, you just followed the cannon exactly instead of comming up with a fun story on your own.

You prove my point exactly. A DKoK Air Cav army isn't fluffy, so you'd need backstory to explain why it exists if you wanted to call it fluffy. My CSM army has (literally) scores of pages of fluff on why I field Noise Marines with Plague Marines and have a hard-on for Daemons. Neither of our armies are inherently fluffy; we have to bend the fluff or write our own.

A player who wanted to play the Grey Knights because he enjoys their fluff would not go about writing his own backstory. By definition, he plays because he wants the backstory that already exists.

"The reason they don't want to be entombed in Dreadnoughts is because it keeps their name from being written on the wall. If they die, their name goes on the wall. They would rather die than be in a Dreadnought, thus they have less candidates."

So your contention is they have less candidates? Prove it.

Book, page and paragraph. Oh wait - that's the point. There isnt. Canon is silent on this entirely

"The Codex Astartes is designed with the Imperium's production capacity in mind. It shows what a Space Marine army is realistically capable fielding given their infrastructure. Guilliman already took into account how many Dreadnoughts a Space Marine company could effectively field, who am I to argue?"

Yawn. GKs /= standard SM. They are a non codex chapter. They have the best of everything. Guilliman took into account the number of dreadnoughts an Orange could realistically field, so the Apples should have exactly the same number!

You're still failing on the fluff front.

"My point was this: regular Space Marines would bring 2 Dreadnoughts to a conflict the size of 2500 points, where Grey Knights would likely be incapable until the lore equivalent to 4000 due to the dispersion of Grey Knight forces. "

No, your point was that you a) made up an artificial restriction with no actual evidential basis to it and b) still dont get that *this* 1500 points is only part of a wider 15000+ point battle so placing restrictions on *this* part of the battle is laughably poor as an argument. It really is.

"Whether a single game is a small portion of larger conflict is entirely up to the players."

No, actually its up to the game designers. You know, those people who are >>>>>>> you when it comes to deciding what is fluffy and what isnt? Every 1500 battle you play isnt necessarily the battle entire. It's why you can field Abaddon at all, never mind in under 2k now. This 1500 point battle RIGHT HERE is part of a 3 company incursion, where the Grand Master has decided that he needs to place the hammer of his force here -hence he is leading with 3 dreadnoughts as heavy fire support.

Boom, fluffy as all hell with a couple lines.

So yes - a 6 dreadnought battle force can be entirely fluffy, regardless of your illogical arguments against

Makes me glad I played Daemonhunters and had tons of the metal models.

No bandwaggoning for me.

Mr. Bean, why are Grey Knights so popular?

"Psychic Powers. *Snort*Snort*."

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your contention is they have less candidates? Prove it.

Book, page and paragraph. Oh wait - that's the point. There isnt. Canon is silent on this entirely

Page 32 of Codex: Daemon Hunters wrote:It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his services to the Emperor - they hope only to rest in the cool cark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely enough that to continue in the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead.

So the basis for your entire argument is wrong, and mine is right. Do you want me to cover everything else you wrote?

You prove my point exactly. A DKoK Air Cav army isn't fluffy, so you'd need backstory to explain why it exists if you wanted to call it fluffy. My CSM army has (literally) scores of pages of fluff on why I field Noise Marines with Plague Marines and have a hard-on for Daemons. Neither of our armies are inherently fluffy; we have to bend the fluff or write our own.

A player who wanted to play the Grey Knights because he enjoys their fluff would not go about writing his own backstory. By definition, he plays because he wants the backstory that already exists.

I must respectfully still disagree with your overall premis. I enjoy the background but that in no way makes my list unfluffy in my head since I came up with background stories for them. In terms of krieg air force, they do have that blurb on IG codex page 40 which makes this entirely possible.

I have a feeling we are using the word "fluff" differently in this argument. I believe that you are using it to mean cannon only. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken as I am essentially guessing your intent here.

I am using fluff to mean "it's cool if you can come up with a scenario for it that fits" even better if there is some precident though not entirely mainstream.

Legality is not in debate here. You can technically make a fully fluff list that breaks the FOC like having 20 earthshakers for a krieg list but I'm sure that was not your intent during this thread.

I'm using fluff exclusively to refer to cannon. I get what you're saying and don't mean to call your army invalid. DKoK make Air Cav regiments like everyone else. However, a player who was really intent on playing DKoK for their fluff wouldn't run an air fleet. There are obviously other factors to building an army though (I thought about a DKoK air list at some point myself, because the hierarchy of the army was cool).

Theduke07 wrote:Orks are an awful codex. Has nothing to to with GK being good.

I agree. It is pretty balanced, but for an army with a high level of popularity like it has I would have thought that it would be a hair more competitive than it is. I almost think that the current fluff plays up their chaotic silliness a little too much and as a result people don't take them seriously. In fact, they are probably the most fun race to pick on in the game.

They are seriously out gunned and need some more low AP weapon options.

Well, more variety in our low AP weapons would certainly be nice. We have no Lance, no Melta, no Plasma. But we can put at least 1 Kustom Mega Blasta or Rokkit in every single unit we can take (except Grots. Dey'z too weedy.) and spam Powerfists like nobody's business.

Still, would be nice to have some low-AP Blasts or Templates, aside from Killkannons, Boomguns and SAGs.

I will say I just started GK army. Most of my ultra marines were stolen in a house break in. They were in a rifle case and I guess the guy thought they were a rifle. I had always liked the idea of playing a demon hunting army, with paldins. I'm a d and d geek and loved the paladin class the most in that game. I loved the models because I love the idea of power weapons. I'm the guy that made thirty honor guard to roll with Calgar. Had to model and look for ways to make ultramarines have power swords. But I like them. I like storm bolters more than anything. Wrist mounted storm bolters to me are just too kool for school. I don't have psifleman dreds. I don't use warp quake units. I don't play draigowing. I play purifiers and henchmen. I like jokearo. Many if the issues people have with the codex, I don't even use. Seems to me many of the gripes here and on the other GK hate threads are assuming that everyone that plays them are power gaming rule exploiters. And I find that kinda demeaning. Why do I play GK? Personal taste. And I'm sorry but you can't be the arbiter of who I am by pre judging me or others. I'm a grey knight. I hate demons. I don't like evil armies and would never play one. Do I harp on demon players? No, I'm glad they play what they want. I hope they have as much fun as I do modelling and painting, coming up with new lists and fantasizing about there next game. For that is what its supposed to be..fun. or I wouldn't put the hundreds of dollars into it, nor would I spend weeks on end modelling and painting. It's fun. I play GK because they are fun.

I'm sure there's good players out there who do well with GK. I just haven't seen it.

I've played against 4 different GK players, 1 of them is a very very strong CM player that rarely, if ever, loses with his Chaos forces.

Never lost against them, not even worried... just running stock UM against them.

Ways I've killed Dreadknights (some of these more than once)

Took apart with Cato
a BP/CS scout squad (with a PF sarg)
sniper scout squad target practice
tactical squad in CC (another PF sarg)
shot them to bits with Sternguard bolter rounds
Melta-guard DP in the back
Melta bike squad

Never had one take more than 200 points out of my force, most of them barely got 100.

Diverse Paladins to avoid wound allocation, well even Honour Guard (the overlooked, bypassed beauties of over costed) walk over them in CC at similar points

On GK as a whole

They cost more than marines, yet die just as easy. Heck, two of those Tau wins in my sig were against GK players.

Sorry guys, I just don't see it.

I agree lobukia. Just like any other codex . Depends on player and who he is playing. To be honest, I think sternguard are one of the best units in game. And I always win with melta attack bikes. I have 9 of them...six put together so far. I made a GK force and I'm still re making stuff to replace my ultra marine army. I think that is proof enough that GK are not op, especially if I a GK player, still feels more confident with my playing ability with ultramarines.

I guess I dont see the invalidating armies.. I mean GK struggle vs hordes if they build for tourneies in most cases. Issues now they will run into vs one army people say they invalidated, Nids. If the nid player spams SitW it is very difficult for GK to hurt monstrous stuff. You say they shoot well tervigon gives them fnp. you say kill tervigon. Well they have 2 so you need to try to do 12 wounds while the trygon is getting ever closer.

I mean most squads of even purifers are around 5-7 maybe 10(which onlly 2 can shoot if moved). So 2 trygons, 2 tervigon, swarmlord with 2 guard, and possibly something like Doom drop podding in covering the board with SotW. Its a tough go without your powers. At that pt your just over priced marines maybe doing A wound while his monsters eat you.

Lobukia wrote:
Diverse Paladins to avoid wound allocation, well even Honour Guard (the overlooked, bypassed beauties of over costed) walk over them in CC at similar points

The no-invul-strike-after-the-Paladins Honour Guard "walk over them in CC"?

Let's assume that it's 7 Honor Guard vs. 5 Paladins (slight cost advantage for the Honor Guards). Let's also assume that no one has been shot anywhere, and that no one's charging.


4 Paladins hit first with Halberds. Hammerhand goes off. 8 WS5 attacks, 5.333... hits, 3.555... wounds, rounded to 4. 3 remaining Honour Guard strike back, 9 attacks. 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 1.5 rounded to 2 wounds after invulns. Daemonhammer strikes, 2 attacks, 1.333... hits, 1.111 wound, rounded to 1. 1 Honour Guard dies.

Final tally: 1 Dead Paladin versus 5 dead Honour Guard. Honour Guard gets walked over by Paladins.

I played Daemonhunters so when the new codex came out, I got that. And it will be the same with Dark Angels - I play Deathwing and when DA get a new codex, I'll buy it and play the new rules for them whether they are better or worse.

DarkHound wrote: When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most.

Interesting, but not at all relevant to the Grey Knights.

Assuming that the Grey Knights have even half that

That would be a baseless assumption.

they would need to commit the resources of 200 Marines to bring 3 or 4 Dreadnoughts.

Commit them where? Why can't the table-top battle simply be representative of the part of the engagement featuring the Dreadnoughts? Why must all forces imagined as part of the battle-group be present on the table? And who says a Marine commander could only take one dreadnought for every fifty tactical marines he takes? Surely tactical necessity and availability of specialist troops trumps any kind of traditional ratios? And how is ANY of that relevant to what the Grey Knights would do?

You're looking at a 4-5000 point army to realistically have 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts.

So yes, an army consisting of 20 Purifiers and 3 Dreadnoughts is unfluffy.

The conclusions youve drawn have no connection to the background. Sorry, son.

The quote you've posted only states that it's rare. And of course it is.

But is it MORE rare than ANY astartes becoming a Dreadnought? No. It certainly doesn't say that.

And no, it certainly doesn't imply that a Grey Kight would rather die than continue to fight as a Dreadnought.

DarkHound wrote: When you look at the Codex Astartes, you'll see that a single active Company has 4 Dreadnoughts at most.

Considering the Ultramarines 9th has 7 dreadnoughts, and are the priciple.upholders of the codex astartes, what you have said is false.

Draiowing doesnt scare me. I've been a necron player since the pewter warriors were around and have now done a full circle. Now they are more versatile and have potential to win tournaments. I'll play any other new dex even when necrons are back to lower tier again because I used to love driving opponents crazy with te wbb res orb mobs. Now I can drive them crazy and make gk players cry especially draigowing