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hmm, missed that one.
That would be a possible choice. Lose 1 of our admech warlord trait auras (i am not working under the assumption that strat was intended to be repeatable until i see a faq lol) but if you're running a knight its less of an issue.

This last half a page of discussion is a bunch of misinformation.

Starting with blast weapons, they've stated in streams that ranged weapons with random numbers of shots that do not automatically hit are blast weapons. It's literally reversing the transition from blast templates to D# shots.

You can take a single Knight with a trait/relic for 4CP, and that's okay. That's roughly the cost you'd pay for any other detachment+stratagem.

Anything more than a single Knight, and you're strongly incentivized to make them your Warlord to refund the cost. Which makes some sense, the bare minimum Gallant+2 Warglaives is already 700 points (likely to be 800+ in 9th). If it's more than half your points, it should probably be your "main" faction.

For myself, I plan to fold my supporting AdMech down to a Patrol with 2 Warlord traits for 4CP. Essentially I give up one heavy support slot that I'd probably have to cut due to point increases anyway. Going up to 2000 points or more and I'd pay the 1 more CP to make it a Battalion and get my extra Dunecrawler and third HQ.

I expect most lists in 9th are going to take an additional patrol detachment, often of a different subfaction to maximize bonuses.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, missed that one.
That would be a possible choice. Lose 1 of our admech warlord trait auras (i am not working under the assumption that strat was intended to be repeatable until i see a faq lol) but if you're running a knight its less of an issue.

Aren't all the other 'extra warlord trait' strategms repeatable? The knight one certainly is.

For anyone not keeping up there was also a massive change to unit coherency and a unit coherency check at the end of morale that removes units as destroyed if they are not in unit coherency. Units of size 6 and up now also must have 2 other models from he same squad within 2" to be considered within coherency. So no more days chaining massive blobs across the map unless you fancy removing a 30 model unit down to 5 from killing one model lol

Octovol wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
hmm, missed that one.
That would be a possible choice. Lose 1 of our admech warlord trait auras (i am not working under the assumption that strat was intended to be repeatable until i see a faq lol) but if you're running a knight its less of an issue.

Aren't all the other 'extra warlord trait' strategms repeatable? The knight one certainly is.

Ours is too, but Vineheart is concerned the Engine War traits are so strong that GW intended we could only take one. I'd counter that proposal by saying compared to other factions our Warlord traits (and Relics) are so weak that we otherwise wouldn't take any besides Monitor Marvelous.

Knight one i never batted an eye at because they only have at most 4 models that can really benefit, plus most of them kinda suck outside the 4++ anyway.
But isnt all the other extra warlord traits strats that came through PAs limited to once a game? I only got admech, knights, and orks and orks didnt get such an ability (which im slightly annoyed at i was highly anticipating that but whatever kustomjobs ftw)

More talking about the strat being limited not the new traits. I.e. normal warlord takes one, 1cp another random dude takes one, cant take any more.
Not sure if i'd want all 4 but i could easily see 3 being valid. Especially since they give our 30pt HQs something to do for once lol

 DarkHound wrote:
This last half a page of discussion is a bunch of misinformation.

Starting with blast weapons, they've stated in streams that ranged weapons with random numbers of shots that do not automatically hit are blast weapons. It's literally reversing the transition from blast templates to D# shots.

Got a timestamp/link for that?

Because as far as I'm aware, they have not said "ranged weapons with random numbers of shots that do not automatically hit are blast weapons". They've said that there's a table of weapons that are Blast in the core rulebook. I believe they've also put an exact number of how many there are out there(I want to say it was in the 170s?) and that a significant amount of them are those with random numbers of shots.

The new coherency rules are going to make Hoplites and Fulgurites a pain to move around. Assuming the rules for pile-in and such stay the same it'll be hard to keep a unit of 10+ in full coherency while engaged. It may get harder to have all of our models in engagement range to strike, too, depending on the position of the enemy unit and terrain.

So far it doesn't look like the edition where I'll finally buy Hoplites with how nerfed combat looks to be. As well as 5+ models units. We'll definitely want to keep MSU for our infantry, and never go above 5 for other models.

Just did tests actually and as long as we keep them base to base or at least very close, we can still keep them in a line in coherency with 2 models. Same for the Riders, if anyone intends on running a 5+ unit. Severely reduces our screening and wrapping capability this way though, and also there's still Blast weapons to think about.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
This last half a page of discussion is a bunch of misinformation.

Starting with blast weapons, they've stated in streams that ranged weapons with random numbers of shots that do not automatically hit are blast weapons. It's literally reversing the transition from blast templates to D# shots.

Got a timestamp/link for that?

Because as far as I'm aware, they have not said "ranged weapons with random numbers of shots that do not automatically hit are blast weapons". They've said that there's a table of weapons that are Blast in the core rulebook. I believe they've also put an exact number of how many there are out there(I want to say it was in the 170s?) and that a significant amount of them are those with random numbers of shots.

This June 10th stream at the 7:40 mark. "Pretty much anything with a range, that you roll to hit with, and random number of attacks."

 Vineheart01 wrote:
But isnt all the other extra warlord traits strats that came through PAs limited to once a game? I only got admech, knights, and orks and orks didnt get such an ability (which im slightly annoyed at i was highly anticipating that but whatever kustomjobs ftw)

Those that do clearly specify "This stratagem can only be used once per game" as the last line of the stratagem. For example, Militarum Tempestus' "Progeny of Conflict". Even Space Marine's "Hero of the Chapter", which is a main book codex, not a PA, specifies that line. If it doesn't specify once per game, it's free to use repeatedly. I'll probably take 2 PA traits in addition to Monitor Marvelous (which is basically free CPs).

There's an argument to be made for a Cybernetica Datasmith to get a third Warlord trait in an allied Patrol (though perhaps not a great one without Robots) without spending an extra CP to get a Battalion. That's 5CP to maximize stacking buffs on something like a horde of Robots, Disintegrators, or Ironstriders taken as an ally to another army.

Concerning the Lord of War changes, I am actually rather supportive of them. Massed super-heavies are imbalancing; they are the flip side of horde armies. They force people to prepare for an extreme scenario, which makes TAC lists less viable. In fact, for a while, we did not have any good TAC lists in the meta, just dominant strategies like Knights, Eldar flyer/bike spam, etc. Even we went to Breacher spam and then Boat spam.

The result of all of this are matchups that are mostly just drawn-out, non-interactive games.

Now, most Marine lists are TAC, but they only got to where they are because they were meta-breakingly OP. Which I think was permitted precisely because they knew they were going to move to 9E, which would reset the points scale and meta; they also pretty much stopped Centurion and Repulsor/CharDread spam. By forcing everyone to take more balanced lists along the lines of Marine lists, they allow for a more balanced, diverse, and interactive meta.

 DarkHound wrote:


You can take a single Knight with a trait/relic for 4CP, and that's okay. That's roughly the cost you'd pay for any other detachment+stratagem.

Anything more than a single Knight, and you're strongly incentivized to make them your Warlord to refund the cost. Which makes some sense, the bare minimum Gallant+2 Warglaives is already 700 points (likely to be 800+ in 9th). If it's more than half your points, it should probably be your "main" faction.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't doomsaying, but be realistic - if you were running a single auxilary knight, you took relic and WLT. Without household traits you needed to in order to get the bang for your buck pointwise, the CP was always worth it. With that investment cost more than doubled, people still running a lone knight alongside their armies rightfully should be looking very hard at what their lists in 9th might look like without one. I am tentatively hopeful it will still be, if not competitive, a choice that isn't outright crippling for an AM army.

And yes of course, bringing additional Knights it then becomes a no brainer - take the superheavy detachment discount, and just pay for the +WLT engine war strat to come out at 4 CP vs. 5, AM doesn't really have any sincerely game changing relics so we aren't missing out there.

If the cost of Knights stay the same and the cost of everything else comes up, I can see Knights remaining relevant.

Think it was the Gallant but according to a betatester he costs 3920pts XD
(obvious typo as the others were around 450 he said)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Think it was the Gallant but according to a betatester he costs 3920pts XD
(obvious typo as the others were around 450 he said)

That's less than a 10% bump, which is promising. That lines up with the Combat Patrol article which specified Knights would be able to participate at 500 points. That implies Armigers won't be over 166 points base (also within 10%), since the smallest legal formation is 3 of them. They probably won't even have that much of an increase, given they don't get much play as is.

I'm biased since I like Warglaives, but a relative points cost reduction, a relatively cheap CP cost for their detachment, and the new stuff in Engine War, may make Armiger hordes a serious consideration. Especially true for Warglaives as a melee supplement for a vehicle heavy AdMech list. You take 3 or 4 of them for 3CP and, I will tell you, Pack Tactics is disgusting.

I do feel a bit sorry for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (don't give a crap about Ultramarines lol) who now have to pay 3CP to include their Primach. I mean they're both powerful models, so perhaps they should be paid for the same way you pay for additional knights. It just feels thematically wrong.

Yeah my roommate was extremely salty about that.
Finally bit the bullet and got Magnus, painted him up, loves using him despite not really being that great, and suddenly looks like its impossible to use him effectively.
I dont think we've seen the supreme detachment cost yet though. It might still be good.

So it looks like our Plasmas on destroyers are blast now....interesting....thats one of the few weapons that isnt meant for hordes that could easily translate to dealing with them since the base profile is only 1 damage. Lol im imagining a squad of 6 not having a better target due to LoS or something getting 36 shots automatically against a squad of 20 cultists. Not optimal, but LoS is gonna be a bigger thing so might come up alot

https://imgur.com/a/1oDiCIB

Honestly I don't believe blast weapons are really going to matter that much. It looks like they're nerfing hordes so much we'll end up paying extra for a rule we'll never use on our guns. I also don't like some of these weapons going Blast, namely the Neutron Laser and Eradication Beamer. What's the point of being able to shoot in CC with our vehicles if they can only do so with the Cognis Stubber ? Same thing for the Belleros cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod (not sure if it's our Icarus, my rules are in French). At least the Dunerider and Robots are benefitting from this, I think Kastelans that can shoot in CC is one of the biggest improvements.

Oh yea there was no way Culverins weren't going to be Blast. They're going to be an excellent all-rounder unit - Vehicles, Elites, Hordes, they can do it all.

The morale change is big enough to counter most (keyword, most) blast weapons being stronger.

Issue before: 30 boyz get shot to hell, only 10 remain. No nearby other boyz or boss so LD10 with a -20 on a D6 test, auto fail for all 10 they flee unless you burn 2cp.
Morale now: A roll of a 1 will still pass despite that insane number loss, and even if it does fail only 1 flees automatically the rest you roll 9D6 for and for every 1-2 another flees (less than half strength +1 to that roll). Odds are heavy that about 3-5 boyz and the nob is still around.

Theres a lot of math in the ork thread about this. Blast except on things that have a LOT of D6's rolled barely gain anything (Wyvern for example kills 2 more boyz than currently on average, but morale suffrage is low enough to counter that)

Squads of 6 and squads of 11-12 will probably disappear because you arent really gaining anything by poking into that threshold, but squads of 20-30 will still be around. I imagine nobody will ever run a 6th dakkabot now unless youre running 2x5 or something. (lol 10 dakkabots wow)

Plasma Culverines are the main thing with blast i can think of that would still fire at hordes and have the high enough rate of fire to just delete them outright. Theres others, but most of them i wouldnt be upset if people shot them at my boyz.

Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

Interesting so that leaves us with:

Heavy Stubbers
Autocannons
Lascannons
Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Icarus Arrays (yeah, the whole thing)
Ferrumite cannon

That we can fire into combat on our vehicles. I haven't included Phosphor Serpenta and radium jezails because, well there really is no point in them now Dragoons can attack stuff on ruins

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

Coherency rules are fine just layer your models 2 deep like bricks - or for models with smaller bases a single line in base contact - Its a change but face it who really liked tenticals or 1unit covering a quarter of the table

Neutron Laser and Eradication Beamer both had 'Blast' templates when initially introduced with C: Skitarii.

Going from C: Skitarii's list of Blast?
Eradication Beamer
Short Range Heavy 1
Medium Range Heavy 1, Blast
Long Range Heavy 1, Large Blast

Neutron Laser
Heavy 1, Blast, Concussive

Mindscrambler Grenade Assault 1, Blast, Haywire, Neural Trauma

CULT MECHANICUS BONUS ROUND!!!!
Eradication Ray
Short Range Heavy 1
Long Range Heavy 1, Blast
Plasma Culverin Heavy 2, Blast, Gets Hot


That wording up at the top is important to keep in consideration. If we end up getting a bit more solid design work done on our stuff, we could be back to Eradicationing in combat with a Short Range profile.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

Coherency rules are fine just layer your models 2 deep like bricks - or for models with smaller bases a single line in base contact - Its a change but face it who really liked tenticals or 1unit covering a quarter of the table

Ah I don't like conga lines neither, my point was that blast weapons won't see much use because we'll rarely face big blocks, because of the disadvantages I listed. I said earlier how Raiders and our 25mm infantry will still be able to stay comfortably in cohesion.

I don't see big blocks of Kataphrons continuing to exist as they do though, unless you invest in massive protection on them with the defensive options we have. Eating a full Knight's Battle Cannon to the face will hurt a lot.

 Aaranis wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

Coherency rules are fine just layer your models 2 deep like bricks - or for models with smaller bases a single line in base contact - Its a change but face it who really liked tenticals or 1unit covering a quarter of the table

Ah I don't like conga lines neither, my point was that blast weapons won't see much use because we'll rarely face big blocks, because of the disadvantages I listed. I said earlier how Raiders and our 25mm infantry will still be able to stay comfortably in cohesion.

I don't see big blocks of Kataphrons continuing to exist as they do though, unless you invest in massive protection on them with the defensive options we have. Eating a full Knight's Battle Cannon to the face will hurt a lot.

I'm planning on running 3 x 4 Breachers and 3 x 4 Raiders in my planned list for exactly those reasons. if I ever go primarily to 2000pt matches it'll probably be 3 x 5 raiders and 3 x 4 breachers with 1 x 4/5 Destroyers as well. And I always run 4 x autocannon ballistarii. Ideally now i'd like to run 3 detachments one for the half range cognis boost, one for the assault and charge bonus and one for the arc weapon bonus. But that'll only come if I go to 2k points as i'd need way more Autocannon Basliatrii to make putting them in their own detachment worth it.

Not sure yet whether my Pteraxii gonna be a blob of 10 or two lots of 5, the loss of a main weapon on the Alpha for both variants is a pain in the ass, same with Sulphurhounds. Raider alpha surprisingly gets a pistol AND a galvanic carbine and all the stuff a regular Raider gets. All the others seem to be short-changed in some way, missing main weapons and close combat weapons. I'm also expecting when they faq/errata the HPB back to 15 pts for the Phosphor Blast Carbine to go to 1 or two points which will absolutely make it worth taking on Sulphurhounds and make them a much punchier option over Raiders mobility and versatility.

Robots...meh I cant see how I'll ever fit them in if they remain at 110pts, Just too expensive and require too much support to make them good.

Kataphrons and Kastellans had Mindlock like servitors to improve their BS and WS that would give us a real reason to field our HQs and the data smith other than just aura bots.

Interesting and annoying at the same time.

Supreme Command changed


So basically free extra HQ slot for everybody and marines/daemons still get to use their primarchs w/o spending a billion CP or axing army-wide rules.
But...pretty much means the armies with a regular LoW are hosed for sure now.
I dont see a reason to ever not use this detachment as its literally a free HQ slot, just HAS to be the warlord in there. Its also a cheesy way to sneak a canticle into a different dogma lol (Mars warlord, Stygies army)

Unless Cawl gets the Supreme Commander keyword, we can't use that detachment anyway. Good for other factions, they get to use their toys, not really relevant for us.

Oh right now i remember what that was.
For some reason i was seeing that as the Tau's "The Eight" category and that specific limitations mentioned were for the LoW half alone.
Forgot, Ghazzy has that Supreme Commander rule. Derp.

I need to stop talking today i have been fudging way too much up lol. Today is not my day.

 DarkHound wrote:
Unless Cawl gets the Supreme Commander keyword, we can't use that detachment anyway. Good for other factions, they get to use their toys, not really relevant for us.

I would assume he'll get the Supreme Commander keyword.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
Unless Cawl gets the Supreme Commander keyword, we can't use that detachment anyway. Good for other factions, they get to use their toys, not really relevant for us.

I would assume he'll get the Supreme Commander keyword.

If he gets proper rules he might become scary again and shouldnt be tied to mars which goes against his fluff.

Leaked rules:
https://imgur.com/a/J4Bygoq?fbclid=IwAR23iaBseSxg8iOblSmZLpZfZyQm4mlRVFf9RFibUGFbMEoFM8yrwzxU_lc

New rules (I think):

-You gain 1 CP per turn

-You can move over 1" or less terrain as if it were not there

-Cannot keep one die when rerolling charges.

-Transports got nerfed; you have to disembark wholly within 3" unless you use the generic stratagem, which changes it to 6" and makes disembarking units immune to explode, but doubles the chance that it is slain. Good thing we have Evacuation Sequence, which prevents a disembarking unit from being slain. No charging or heroic intervention after disembarking as well.

-You can run less models than needed for an MSU; this is an Understrength Unit (USU?) and has the same power level as an MSU. (But it apparently breaks battle-forged, so not worth it.)

-Cannot recycle CP before battle or at the end of any round

-Standard tourney length is now 5 rounds