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Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Slaves to Darkness, and the Lost and the Damned, were (and still are) over-rated.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Back in the dark





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Ah didn't own them then.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye tbh those of us who have been around long enough to have owned Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned first time around, (or paid silly money on ebay since) pretty much weep at the current CSM codex.

I like the current CSM Codex, and I've got Slaves, along with the Codices ones going back to 2E...

   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Back in the dark





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

I sold mine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/06 21:44:01


"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
Grumpy Longbeard




New York

I disagree with your assessment that Obliterators are somehow necessary for a competitive list. If anything, they're an occasional flavour-unit. The Heavy Support section of Codex: Chaos Space Marines is wide open in terms of the number of live options that it offers players.


If you aren't taking Obliterators you are handicapping yourself. They provide desperately needed flexibility by combining long-range AT with extremely efficient anti-infantry dakka. You cannot run a Chaos list without long-range support because the fast units (bikes and raptors) are restricted to short-range AT and are both crap for the points (and they don't fit in the mech metagame).

Terminators are the other option, but they are hampered by the randomness of reserves + deep strike AND only get one shot. Not bad for a suicide unit, but paying 120 points for 3 meltagun shots (per game) isn't anything to call home about.
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block



BCN

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Ah didn't own them then.

I did, and do, though I don't have 'em on me so I'm gonna have to go off memory. What did you run from S.t.D that you can't run now? Other than wargear such as Tox. grenades, obviously. I'll give you L.a.t.D, but then they weren't legion lists.
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

Why? Lets see what I've got that I can't field...
This is across a couple armies, btw..

*Slaneesh Lord with Doom Siren
*Dreadnaught with warp amps
*Rhino, ditto.. also extra combi bolter + havok
*Dreadnaught with Havok Launcher
*Predator with blastmaster
*Chosen AC with combi bolter and powerfist
*2 Blastmaster havok squad
*6 man squads with SW and HW (cuz 6 was slaneesh's fav number)
*raptors with 3 SW, raptor AC with a combi melta

For those who cry cheese, I say , I can live with the points going up, not being able to use stuff I took the effort to model pisses me off, also, these changes make me buy less models, not more, because I -used- to spend about 2x the cost to get the bits to do em -just right- now.. why bother..

<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in gb
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Back in the dark





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

@ endless - Thinking more of the character stuff, like Mutations and the weapons etc, its the ability to create things of, well Chaos.

The new dex doesn't feel like you can do that as well, especially when you compared it with the last one. Hell if they had said look lets be honest ten or so of these enhancements are overkill, we'll remove them it wouldn't have been an issue.

However for some twisted reason I still can't fathom they removed the whole dang thing, and suddenly the fun part of the old dex. Playing around with mutaions/rewards and then modelling an equivilent figure was gone.





edit - ninja'd.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/06 21:56:27


"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bookwrack wrote:What was no longer fieldable? Basilisks and cultists?

Also, Berzerkers on Bikes and Noise Marine havoc squads to name two others. iirc, Dreads could be marked and have some funky weapons (Slaneesh getting Blastmasters, iirc). It was a lot of little things that went away and have no replacement.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Sure, but Land Raiders provide more reliable Lascannons and anti-infantry firepower, Defilers are more mobile and have better anti-infantry firepower, and Havocs can have more weapons, a transport, and they can fight in close combat. That's not counting the Vindicator and the Predator as being cheaper and harder-hitting than a unit of Obliterators.

Using Raptors and Bikers for anti-tank Melta Guns is a waste when Havocs and Chosen can take far more anti-tank firepower - heck a unit of Chaos Space Marines with two Meltas and a Combi-Melta in a Rhino have more anti-tank as Raptors or Bikers. Raptors are best for flanking assault troops, and Bikers are best for bringing Icons to bear.

If anything Obliterators are a handicap because they are I1, and despite being W2 Terminators, that leaves them to having their hash settle by any Johnny-Power Weapon that happens to wander in their direction and trap them in combat. Havocs have the numbers and attacks to deal with a tarpit, and the vehicle units can simply drive away. If you're taking them, then you need units to screen them from the inevitable fire and fodder they'll draw.

The reason people think they need the flexibility of Obliterators (flexibility at a premium), is because they get mixed with very rigid and short-ranged units like Plague Marines, Berzerkers, etc. Havocs provide great redundancy to units of Chaos Space Marines, while their Rhinos (and Defilers, Predators, Vindicators, Land Raiders, etc) provide great redundancy to Rhino transports.
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block



BCN

@Morathi- Yeah, of course, but really that was due to the more 'roleplay' aspect to Rogue Trader. I actually like the way the new codex allows me to, finally, recreate the E.C.list I had back then, without having to spam dumbass Noise Marines. It has actually inspired me to revisit Chaos when previously the legions felt like they'd been reduced to one dimensional stereotypes. I know I'm not alone, but we get lost in the noise a bit. I know the new codex ain't perfect, and there's stuff I'd change, but I do like the move away from single weapons or rules being the definition of the legions.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Back in the dark





Suffolk, where the Aliens roam.

Aye don't get me wrong, I still play CSM with gusto. I'm just missing some of the nibbles we used to have on the plate.

"That's not an Ork, its a girl.." - Last words of High General Daran Ul'tharem, battle of Ursha VII.

Two White Horses (Ipswich Town and Denver Broncos Supporter)
 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block



BCN

This game has changed a lot, and I can see why people feel like Chaos, particularly, have suffered a loss of options. For me, however, what seems to be complained about most is stuff I didn't really like, or downright hated (still annoyed so many people think E.C. = N.M. ). So, personally, I'm happy to take the rough with the smooth. Much of what people seem to define as 'chaos' was the long list of weapon options. This a) doesn't fit with the way codexes are currently being written and b) was a pale, wan shadow of the personalisation that was possible originally. Oh well...
   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator






Endless, the problem is, the mutations and combinations are what set CSMs apart from SMs. Now CSMs are just spiky SMs, with a couple of unique units. Its almost a mirror image.

Chaos Space Marines
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

At their core, CSM *are* spiky SM without ATSKNF, so why shouldn't they largely overlap?

   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator






Uhh, because they have been with Chaos for 10 000 years? The old codex shook the feeling that it was just SMs with spikes, theres no reason this would couldnt have done the same.

Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Vampire Counts 
   
Made in us
Man O' War





Texas

I started playing Chaos last year, with the current codex, I liked it. Then a friend showed me the previous codex and the current while competitive is lacking some variety and flavor. Compared to New SM, Ork and IG codexs, CSM are very one dimensional which gets old.

Blood for Blood god!  
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block



BCN

Night Lords wrote:Endless, the problem is, the mutations and combinations are what set CSMs apart from SMs. Now CSMs are just spiky SMs, with a couple of unique units. Its almost a mirror image.

Yeah, but without units like cultists, Thrall Wizards and Plague Skeletons, that's all CSM are. How many mutations could you take in the 3.5 codex? Is it really feasible for every unit (at least) to have a different mutation with different rules in the ruleset as it exists? How do you write that codex?
In Slaves to Darkness the three legion lists are almost exactly the same, Daemonettes were better in combat than Bloodletters, which was balanced by having the units being different numbers. Other than that, no real difference.
Later, in 2nd, Chaos became one legion, one trick. Is that 'chaos'? Not for me.
Yes, a chaos codex where the multitudes of cultists, odd deamons, mutated fauna with the occasional 10,000 year old CSM appearing in the midst of them would be great, fluffy and fun. Can you imagine the complaints if GW turned round and said 'you want fluffy? Well, there are no CSM armies, and those that exist are just bad SM (IW)'. Then there would be chaos

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/06 23:02:45


 
   
Made in us
Doc Brown






I remember when the current chaos codex came out I looked at it and almost wept. I took my list, found what I could that was still playable, then saw my biggest issue. I HAD NO DARK APOSTLE! I no longer took the most fluff-tastic unit in my list because the writers are a bunch of idiots. So, I decided to have a laugh with a friend, who played Space Marines but was an avid supporter of my fluffy Word Bearers.

We went to our FLGS and asked a red shirt there what I was supposed to take now that I had no Dark Apostle. (Granted I knew it was a sorcerer for me since I hated the lords and they didn't represent how the dark apostles were gifted slightly enough to summon daemons and such).

The red shirt asked me, "Would you like your HQ to be effective or be closer to a Dark Apostle?"

So i thought, I'll bite, and asked him, "What's the effective choice..." Big mistake.

He told me to take a Daemon Prince.

So, this red shirt now tells me the transition between codecies has turned my wonderful Dark Apostle into a DAEMON PRINCE! Anyone else see a problem?

"From the fires of Betrayal unto the blood of revenge we bring the name of Lorgar, the Bearer of the Word, the favored Son of Chaos, all praise be given to him. From those that would not heed we offer praise to those who do, that they might turn their gaze our way and gift us with the Boon of Pain, to turn the Galaxy red with the blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods."

-Excerpt from the Three Hundred and Forty-First

Book of Epistles of Lorgar

Cheese Elemental wrote:That made me think... what's a good pick-up line in the Imperium?

"Hey baby, my plasma cannon's running hot and I need to purge you in the name of the Emperor tonight."
 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

The idea that you can't field a "Dark Apostle" because GW didn't make a specific entry for one is kind of odd to me.

IMO, he's just a CSM Lord with a Dark Crozius (Inv. Save) who summons Daemons, so you could give him MoT and an Icon.

If you want to bump him into a Psyker or Daemon Prince, that's your perogative.

Or you can bring both a CSM *and* a DP to cover all the bases.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






the late 3rd edition codex (the one with oblits as natural T5 in the first printing) was completely broken but at least had flavor. i definitely don't miss chaos lord whose stats make bloodthirsters want to lick their boots or iron warriors with 4 heavies, t5 oblits, etc. what i do miss is the number of units that were simply different from the standard marine equivalents. raptors used to actually have special rules instead of being a vanilla assault squad without ATSKNF. if you took a chaos lord with the MoK, you couldn't take anyone with the MoS. specialty marines (berzerkers, noise marines, etc) were only troops if they corresponded to the mark on your lord. regular CSM squads had infiltrate so that they could compete with the utility of the marked marines in the troops category. daemon princes could actually buy wargear other than wings/marks/psyker powers.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Mostly right (IIRC, only Chosen had Infiltrate, not all basic CSM), and as things have evolved:
- Raptors aren't (as) cripplingly overpriced
- you're free NOT to take MoS and MoK together
- players can choose Cult vs Marked marines as they desire
- Chosen and Havocs have loads of guns and options available compared to Cult Marines.

It's different but no worse than you choose to make it.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



Brotherhood of Blood

No, people hate it because it nerfed a couple broken flavors of Chaos Marines.


100% right. You used to be able to run 4-5 different distinct lists. Now you have one.
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Lemartes wrote:
No, people hate it because it nerfed a couple broken flavors of Chaos Marines.


100% right. You used to be able to run 4-5 different distinct lists. Now you have one.

That's a popular misconception exacerbated by the edition change. Now that people are catching up with the 5th edition rules, the Double-Lash is old hat.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Greenville, South Cacky-Lacky

JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, people hate it because it nerfed a couple broken flavors of Chaos Marines.


Please don't presume to tell me why I hate something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 01:37:48


Alles klar, eh, Kommissar? 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

abhorsen950 wrote:I dunno if this is in the right place Move if it is wrong.

But basically the CSM codex loads of people hate it and really think its terrible!
and i own the codex and i dunno why people hate it so much?
so love to hear why and what you think should be updates in the next one


ABH


My guess is that because it was hit with the Nerfbat from the last edition, and a lot of players are pissed off about not being able to bring completely broken armies anymore. It's still a pretty competitive book IMO.

1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





I really see no problem with it, but then again I have no experience in the previous editions..... one of the things that pisses me off is that space marines get missile launchers for free and CSM have to pay 10 points for them, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the new Codex. I do think they should make it more apparent that they're superior to normal Space Marines, though...

... because that totally makes sense.

 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

abhorsen950 wrote:CSM Codex why is it hated so much?


Two words:

Generic f#*@ing Daemons.

The last Chaos Codex is what brought me back into 40K after a long hiatus. The current 'Chaos' Codex is what got me out, for good. Don't play GW's rules no more.

Beyond that, I have nothing else to add on the matter.

Nurglitch wrote:Slaves to Darkness, and the Lost and the Damned, were (and still are) over-rated.


Oohh look! Opinion as fact! So tasty!

djones520 wrote:My guess is that because ... a lot of players are pissed off about not being able to bring completely broken armies anymore.


Yeah, no, I think it's more to do with the fact that people invested a lot of time and money (hundreds if not thousands in some cases - I have over $1K worth of Daemons myself) into armies that don't exist any more.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/07/07 02:03:01


   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

H.B.M.C wrote:Oohh look! Opinion as fact! So tasty!

Opinion expressed as opinion, actually. But hey, don't let that get in the way of your venom... Tell us how you really feel!
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I said I had nothing more to add, and thus, I have nothing more to add. If you want more, keep baiting me. I may give in eventually.

   
 
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