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Bait, bait, bait!

Lets see, where to start, where to start.

1: 30 Deamonettes I can no longer use.
2: Havoks with Bolt Pistol, CCW, and Doom Sirens I can no longer use.
3: Noise Marine Terminators I can no longer use.
4: Predator with Blastmasters I can no longer use.
5. Chosen Noise Marines I can no longer use.
6. Chaos Bikers with Sonic Blasters I can no longer use.

I will stop at 6, because that is the Sacred Number of Slaanesh, and at some point that actually meant something.

Seeing as the new dex left me with a lord, about 2 noise marine squads, and a squad of Chaos Marines with close combat weapons, and a lord, and a bunch the previous style rhinos, I have dunked the entire army in simple green and am starting over.

I am however taking my Deamonettes and starting a Slaanesh Deamon army, Deamon Princes may be heavy Choices, but when I build one, he will be my old Emperor's Children Lord given Deamonic Stature.

I played a Deamon Delivery Rhino Rush Noise Marine army, without the deamonettes with their rending claws, the army just doesn't work. The army wasn't reliable but it was fun as hell. Load the entire army up with noise marine weapons, (sonic blasters and blast masters) or close combat havok squads with doom sirens. Rush the enemy. pop out of tanks, shoot like there is no tomorrow. Summon Deamons, then follow deamons into close combat. It would alternatingly work great or poorly. Such is the fickle ways of the Chaos Gods.

Oh and to those who complain about Slaanesh getting the best psychic powers, I never liked Lash of Submission, Gift of Chaos is much more my style. When it works it is so much fun to use on enemy HQ choices.

@Nurglitch: The biggest problem with certain literalist individuals is that they are mentally incapable of distinguishing between opinion and fact unless you actually preface your comment with the specific phrase "In my opinion, ..."


____

Oh yes, smilies don't help things, either.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Nurglitch: The biggest problem with certain literalist individuals is that they are mentally incapable of distinguishing between opinion and fact unless you actually preface your comment with the specific phrase "In my opinion, ..."

And the problem with people like you John is that you are incapable of seeing that your opinion isn't always fact.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If CSM still had 5-man Lascannons & Elite Oblits, with the option for extra looted Pie, there wouldn't nearly be the same amount of whining.

No, people hate it because it nerfed a couple broken flavors of Chaos Marines.

Geez, could you be any worse of a GW fan boy?

No people dont hate it for losing power. People hate it because its really a renegades marine book, masqurading as a chaos marine one.

No you cant make a real Alpha legion army. Nor night lords. Nor iron warriors and so on.....Not because people want a bassie or an extra heavy slot.


Chaos legions, the big 8. Thats what chaos players really want. Not the watered down renegades. The legions that started the dark road of damnnation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:At their core, CSM *are* spiky SM without ATSKNF, so why shouldn't they largely overlap?

If thats your logic, why have a Dark angel, space wolf, blood angel, black templar codex? They're all just marines after all.

carmachu wrote:
Chaos legions, the big 8. Thats what chaos players really want. Not the watered down renegades. The legions that started the dark road of damnnation.

The current Dex is like bad light beer, perhaps even near beer. I want some fricking imported European Lager and I want it yesterday.

It's like going through rehab, without the oh so slaaneshi drugs to get you through the withdrawl.

*Sends his Marines off to score some combat drugs from the Dark Eldar*

carmachu wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If CSM still had 5-man Lascannons & Elite Oblits, with the option for extra looted Pie, there wouldn't nearly be the same amount of whining.

No, people hate it because it nerfed a couple broken flavors of Chaos Marines.

Geez, could you be any worse of a GW fan boy?

No you cant make a real Alpha legion army. Nor night lords. Nor iron warriors and so on.....Not because people want a bassie or an extra heavy slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:At their core, CSM *are* spiky SM without ATSKNF, so why shouldn't they largely overlap?

If thats your logic, why have a Dark angel, space wolf, blood angel, black templar codex? They're all just marines after all.

I suppose that I could buy several times as much GW stuff and pretend to hate the company, and then continue to spend inordinate sums supporting a company that I profess to hate along with inordinate amounts of time paying attention to said company. But no, in my case, I've spent enough and am reasonably satisfied with what I've got; otherwise, on the sales block it goes. If that's being a fanboy, so be it.

You know, I own every Codex: Chaos GW has ever printed. And of them all, the current book is no less playable or flexible than the rest. It's just down-powered. GW retconning AL and NL for one version doesn't make it so for perpetuity.

The difference is that robed marines, werewolf marines, and knightly marines look different from Roman marines and spiky marines, and that is why they get Codices. When vampire marines can have a distinctive look, they'll get a Codex, too.

I lied. Turns out I do have some more to add.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I suppose that I could buy several times as much GW stuff and pretend to hate the company

I don't pretend.

JohnHwangDD wrote:...and then continue to spend inordinate sums supporting a company that I profess to hate along with inordinate amounts of time paying attention to said company.

Actually have stopped paying attention mostly. I haven't even read my copy of the Guard Codex yet, if that's any indication. I'm only interested in Planet Strike and Planatary Empires as it's to do with Campaigns, the one thing I do care about.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And of them all, the current book is no less playable or flexible than the rest.

EPIC-fething-FAIL JOHN. Maybe you should be the king of men made from straw, because Carmachu didn't say that at all. And he's not even talking about the power of the Codex, yet you insist on reframing the issue to something he's not even discussing to score cheap points.

As I said the first time we fought, in my review thread, and you still, after all these years, can't get it through your wall-like skull:

It's not about power, it's about flavour. He's not complaining about a loss of power, he's complaining about a loss of choice. Many armies vanished when that abortion of a Codex was printed, and in its place we got a single generic army list that's still powerful, but far less interesting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The difference is that robed marines, werewolf marines, and knightly marines look different from Roman marines and spiky marines, and that is why they get Codices. When vampire marines can have a distinctive look, they'll get a Codex, too.

Double-standards much?

It's great if you just want to play Black Legion or Renegades. At least Abbaddon is what he is supposed to be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Nurglitch: The biggest problem with certain literalist individuals is that they are mentally incapable of distinguishing between opinion and fact unless you actually preface your comment with the specific phrase "In my opinion, ..."

And the problem with people like you John is that you are incapable of seeing that your opinion isn't always fact.

WOOT WOOT! STICK IT TO HIM, HBMC!

Oh, and to answer what you said up aways in this thread John, that isn't fluffy. MoT makes him chosen by Tzeentch. The only marks I EVER use in my army is Chaos Undivided. Meaning, NO! So no, that's a horrid idea. I still use my old Dark Apostle model, I've given him doombolt and say it's one of the few powers he uses. I dislike proxying marks and such when I want to stick to fluff, that's just how I play.

@Lorgar: Up to you, man. I just don't see why one has to be so literal about things like that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's not about power, it's about flavour. He's not complaining about a loss of power, he's complaining about a loss of choice. Many armies vanished when that abortion of a Codex was printed, and in its place we got a single generic army list that's still powerful, but far less interesting.

Win. Sums it all up. If you have all the past Chaos codexes, why not compare the pages devoted to cult armies in the one that everyone loves to the pages devoted to variant armies in the new codex.

You'll notice that each Cult Legion gets several pages of rules and wargear and each Undivided Legion gets a page worth of rules. This kept things fluffy and much more importantly INTERESTING. Also, individual units got neutered. See Also: Chaos Raptors. See Also: Chosen.

Yes, current Chosen are good. But they used to talk about how stupid it was that Chaos vets only got infiltrate and they should have more skills to reflect their centuries of experience. This time around they said no, learning to be as sneaky as a Space Marine Scout is all they learned in those centuries. Gee, thanks.

dietrich wrote:People hate it because it eliminated about 8 flavors of Chaos Marines. It'd be like GW eliminating Space Wolves, Black Templars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels. While that is maybe what -should- happen, it still hurts to have your army eliminated, especially if you have units that are no longer fieldable.

So glad i unloaded my massive DG army before this codex hit. I hate the generic brush over of the fluff and removal of the ability to make proper cult armies.

I'm also sick of hearing "two lashes" within the first 30 seconds of anyone telling me about there chaos army...

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:The only thing I hate are the unit Icons, which make absolutely no sense whats so ever.

'Oh No, bob got shot, we don't count as Khorne anymore!'

why would you take any non specific(Plagues, Berzerkers, Thousnads and Noisys)anyway???waste of points...

the_emperors_renegade wrote:
why would you take any non specific(Plagues, Berzerkers, Thousnads and Noisys)anyway???waste of points...

because i felt the need to run my watered down cult terminators in my deathguard.

icons are really lame, it was a poor move by GW.

the_emperors_renegade wrote:

why would you take any non specific(Plagues, Berzerkers, Thousnads and Noisys)anyway???waste of points...

well other that noting the irony of that statement in a thread about peoples issues with the book, (I don't want a cookie cutter codex thanks,) I like using the varying units.

Plus what studderindave said. I spent way too long converting my termies not to use them.

No people dont hate it for losing power. People hate it because its really a renegades marine book, masqurading as a chaos marine one.

Correct. Its quite literally, boring.

I purchased a 1500 point Chaos SM army after pouring through the codex. I was that excited about the fluff, models and flavor. To me, it has a lot of options, especially in the troops section. It should be said though, I have no experience with any of the previous CSM codexes.

I've played only a single game with my new army, but the way it played was so different than my orks or Crimson Fists. To say I loved it would be an understatement.

I suppose I am the type of player who is satisfied with painting my favorite faction within the codex as opposed to having GW feed me the options to play a hundred different lists.

Hi guys sorry i forgot about this post
ill reply again soon when ive managed to read all the replies
im in skwl atm

cheers
ABH

I'll preface this by saying that i did not own or play a Chaos marine army from the last book but I'm torn about the newest chaos book, on one hand the new book has excellent troops, i think in general our basic marines are better than they were before (and some of the best troops in the game) and i really like what they have done with the cult units. i also like the new defilers and that vindicators are now standard in the list. but on the other hand its very obvious that the book is only half baked with lots of units that are just there for the sake of being there ( raptors, possessed, dreadnoughts, bikers, spawn, greater and lesser daemons)

i would actually be happy with the current book if they only changed a few minor things:
- icons are an upgrade to a unit pts per model
- icons given to lords resemble the marks that cult troops have (+1 attack and furious charge for example)
- icons can be given to daemons
- change dreadnought's "crazed" back to the old rule
- allow possessed to buy their upgrades
- allow chosen to chose one veteran skill (infiltrate, tank hunters, etc.)

i think GW have an opportunity to make the next chaos book really great, its very clear people like playing their cult and undivided legion armies. hopefully they will bring the focus back to the 10,000 year old legionnaires and instead of being "spikey marines with less options" diversify the list by bringing in more lost and the damned type of units. im convinced they would have a hit if they incorporated cultists, mutants and weird daemon engines. hell i wouldn't mind if they removed the generic watered down daemon units we have now for more stuff like this.

I like the renegades list, myself. Power-wise, I find it's really very good. Fluff-wise I prefer it. I don't have a lot of interest in playing a single chapter of the chaos marines like I would space marines; I like the build and aesthetic I have with my renegade list.

It gives me the option, as a painter and modeler, to do lots of different things in my army. I've got guys painted as ultramarines with furrows in their chapter symbols shoulder to shoulder with horned bronze and red madmen.

WHAT HAPPENED TO USING YOUR IMAGINATION AND CREATING SOMETHING NEW AND EXCITING WITHOUT NEEDING TO BE SPOON FED LIKE A CHILD!?

Besides, if you hate the company and don't pay attention to anything, why would you care?



EDIT: Verb conjugation errors.

warpcrafter wrote:What they need is a CODEX CHAOS. A massive tome that includes Traitor Legions, post-Horus Heresy Renegade Space Marines, Daemons of all sorts, Cultists, Mutants, Traitor Guard and Dark Adeptus. Even if it were a leather bound phone-book of a Codex with a price tag that would make my debit card weep tears of blood, I would still snap one up quicker than anybody believed me capable of moving. Rant off, for now...

To your point, the real issue IMO is that they replaced a book with a great deal of color and many themes with a much more conceptually limited version. They didn't really offer us a different look at Chaos or anything new conceptually. You could field renegades in the last version. Frankly, this one isn't even that good of a renegades list. You can't tell me Red Corsairs (for instance) shouldn't be a helluva lot more colorful than anything you can field from the CSM codex. It's as if the creative brief said "trim it all back" and little else.

You'll never convince me it wasn't a rush job, because usually (whatever faults they might have) the design team does a good job on the conceptual end. And I'm really not seeing that with the CSM book.

I wish they had never updated the list. Just look at all the choice in the armoury.. all the daemonic gifts. The currnet codex is so dull i thought jervis wrote it, only to ddiscover it was aliesso and gav..

The CSM codex is like the tinman in Wizard of Oz. It has no heart. It just doesn't inspire you, unlike previous versions of the book. You can build an army out of it, and there's at least one effective build from it. But, it just doesn't invoke the same awe and wonder, unlike the Second Edition CSM and the 3.5 CSM codex did. GW can never get Chaos right. It's either bland and nothing or overpowered cheese.

Those of us who wanted the freedom to make our armies in our own image were pretty happy to see the new book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Those of us who wanted the freedom to make our armies in our own image were pretty happy to see the new book.

If your image is bland, you must have been overjoyed by it.

Help me out. How do I make this army in "my own image." Old codex arch heretic with traitor guard backed by demons, oblits, and defiler? No MEQs.
It WAS my own image and its now an illegal list.

You can't make the statement that this gives you freedom to make armies in your own image with suffiicent support. The "new" codex literally has significantly less options. Therefore the list by its very nature cannot be as tailored to a player's specific view of their list, vs. what could be provided in the "old" codex.

Nah.

More like my image wasn't to be shoehorned into somebody else's arbitrary army concept and restrictions.

Especially as the Legion lists and rules were pulled out of thin air. It's not like there was any precedent for any of them in the previous Codices.

You see, back when I first got into Chaos, you had to use imagination to make up an army.

No John, I want GW to tell me how to paint my models and what units to use in my list.

Unless it's not exactly what I had in mind, then damn their black hearts for it.

JohnHwang, all rules are pulled out of thin air at some point. It's not like they were set in stone from the beginning of time. It's all made up by somebody.