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Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







sourclams wrote:
DarkHound wrote:
Half the codex isn't obsolete if you want to make a good list, you just aren't looking hard enough (or at all apparently).


If there were other competitive lists besides some variation on Plague Marines and OBLITS/OBLITS/OBLITS, then we'd see them. In 4th ed, the Daemonbomb army was moderately effective because not every list was mech, which is definitely the trend in 5th. Since 5th ed requires a competitive assault army to be able to crack transports via shooting, you need to add ranged firepower, and unfortunately the best way to do this is to add Oblits and even Lash shouldn't be ignored because it synergizes with Daemon assaults.

In other words, the most competitive way to play Daemons is as a variant of Lash/Oblits.

The problem is, I don't think thats true. I do think people were wowed by Fzorgle then stopped looking, and anyone who is really competative isn't going to try to bank on a new list over a proven one. There are other ways to cover all your bases in this codex, but since most lists tend to just get written off as not as good as Fzorgle by the internet people, we'll never really know if there is anything better out there. My money is still on the Gift spam lists.

sourclams wrote:
DarkHound wrote:"I would even say the vindicator is a waste." I don't know how much more cost effective you want units. It provides ample protection from Terminators and Hordes alike, and 2 of them are just amazing. What exactly makes them a waste?


Because two oblits lay down more firepower for similar points. Against vehicles you have an array of S7, 8+melta, and 9 weapons to choose from, some of which are twin linked and/or have the coveted AP1. Against hordes or even small squads two small blasts will hit more models than a single large blast. They have the same minimum number of targets hit (0) with higher averages and maximums.

The Vindicator is an okay unit, but S10/AP2 isn't as much of a deterrent to either Terminators or Hordes as S7/AP2 twice is.

I'd say they are about on par since each one can cover everything (GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, all tanks) and cost the same, it comes down to what the rest of your list looks like. Without ample Icons, Obliterators aren't nearly as mobile as a Vindicator, and they still aren't even with the Icon. You also need to look at how much target saturation you have. My list doesn't have enough large targets to keep the Vindicator safe, and I do have Icons, so Obliterators are the better choice. In a list with a Daemon Prince or two, a Landraider and several BAWKSES, a Vindicator would be much more at home. Like I've been harping about for a while now, it comes down to synergy.

   
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DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm so glad I made this thread. I can just toss it down whenever anyone wants to know about Possessed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231940.page


I dont know why you would link to that topic: All that topic did was prove that they REALLY suck, even under ideal conditions. Berzerkers out perform them in close combat in almost every situation (the one being power weapons charging into a unit not in cover), and are much more versatile. Having possessed get charged by something as simple as a dreadnought would be the end of the game for them.

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Lanceradvanced wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Yup. So, given that it's all arbitrary, why shouldn't I have the freedom to make my own?

The problem with that argument is that you -could- make your own, I have a very nice Fallen Angels army made just that way...

I had a nice FA army, prior to the previous Codex.
____

Lanceradvanced wrote:
Similarly, Havocs "losing" Cult weapon options, despite those models being fieldable as regular NM, is easily made up by their sheer versatility with regular Special and Heavy weapons.

"normal" NM's are now restricted to one blastmaster and one doomsiren per squad, barring the Apoc EC formation, those options are -gone-. Secondly, what you're claiming "makes up for it" -was in the last codex allready-

40k5 pulled the Heavies and Specials on all units, so this is merely following along.

   
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Night Lords wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm so glad I made this thread. I can just toss it down whenever anyone wants to know about Possessed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231940.page


I dont know why you would link to that topic: All that topic did was prove that they REALLY suck, even under ideal conditions. Berzerkers out perform them in close combat in almost every situation (the one being power weapons charging into a unit not in cover), and are much more versatile. Having possessed get charged by something as simple as a dreadnought would be the end of the game for them.

Actually, between a Dreadnaught charging the Berserkers or Possessed, the Possessed will survive longer. The Zerkers will take more wounds from the Dreadnaught and then more wounds from No Retreat. They are different units design for different roles though. The Possessed are shock troops, designed to run in, kill stuff and their 5++ requiring the enemy make an effort to kill them, while Berserkers are designed to clear objectives and sometimes hold them. The Possessed don't need to out perform the Berzerkers, just out last them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/11 01:48:24


   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I write a nice, polite, honest responce in an attempt to genrate a non-snarky and healthy conversation, and I get ignored.

*sigh*

Seems I can't win...

   
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DarkHound wrote:
Night Lords wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm so glad I made this thread. I can just toss it down whenever anyone wants to know about Possessed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231940.page


I dont know why you would link to that topic: All that topic did was prove that they REALLY suck, even under ideal conditions. Berzerkers out perform them in close combat in almost every situation (the one being power weapons charging into a unit not in cover), and are much more versatile. Having possessed get charged by something as simple as a dreadnought would be the end of the game for them.

Actually, between a Dreadnaught charging the Berserkers or Possessed, the Possessed will survive longer. The Zerkers will take more wounds from the Dreadnaught and then more wounds from No Retreat. They are different units design for different roles though. The Possessed are shock troops, designed to run in, kill stuff and their 5++ requiring the enemy make an effort to kill them, while Berserkers are designed to clear objectives and sometimes hold them. The Possessed don't need to out perform the Berzerkers, just out last them.


Do you actually read the stats or rulebook? Do you understand the math and common sense behind the game? Because what you just said was complete nonsense.

A dreadnought with 4 attacks is going to kill 2 on average. Then the zerker with powerfist has 4. 2-3 hit (2.64). 4 to glance, so that means 50% chance youre going to do something with 2-3 tries at it.

Even assuming nothing happens, lose combat by two, you take two 3+ armour saves. You lose 0.66 of a guy. Lets say the dread DOES get that extra kill and kills 3 a turn. Thats still 4 turns of combat, and 3 powerfists x 4 attacks. If you dont do anything to it with 12 powerfist attacks, you have bad luck.

Lets see possessed now: Oh look, they all died. Great, you tied up a 100 point unit with a 260 point one for 4 or 5 turns.

This is assuming that zerkers dont get the charge off too - possessed can charge but theres no point. Furious charge greatly increases the odds with that extra strength and attack.

When possessed run in and kill stuff, they do it much worse except when they have power weapons (1/6 chance) and when they are not assaulting through cover. Their 5++ save means that 1/3 guys survive - big deal? The 2 or 3 guys left that survive because of it arnt going to do much anything anyways. Possessed only survive longer against power weapons, except that zerkers kill more so theres less attacks coming in - which means they survive just as well if not better. Zerkers can also shoot ontop of all that, and scoring should not be brushed off.

So no, possessed are terrible, and should never be taken. 4 points more I auto get power weapons, a 2+ save, and guns to shoot with too. Not to mention deepstriking. 5 points less, I get units that outperform them in everyway but 1 very very specific situation.

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Stupid question, but how does a Skull Champion with a Power Fist get 4 Attacks?
   
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The sink.

DarkHound wrote:
Night Lords wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm so glad I made this thread. I can just toss it down whenever anyone wants to know about Possessed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231940.page


I dont know why you would link to that topic: All that topic did was prove that they REALLY suck, even under ideal conditions. Berzerkers out perform them in close combat in almost every situation (the one being power weapons charging into a unit not in cover), and are much more versatile. Having possessed get charged by something as simple as a dreadnought would be the end of the game for them.

Actually, between a Dreadnaught charging the Berserkers or Possessed, the Possessed will survive longer. The Zerkers will take more wounds from the Dreadnaught and then more wounds from No Retreat. They are different units design for different roles though. The Possessed are shock troops, designed to run in, kill stuff and their 5++ requiring the enemy make an effort to kill them, while Berserkers are designed to clear objectives and sometimes hold them. The Possessed don't need to out perform the Berzerkers, just out last them.


Bezerkers with a Power fist skull champ can actually kill the dread. Possessed can't, unless they rolled rending. And on the charge the skull champ is S9, making the pen that much more likely. I'm sorry but berzerkers win over possessed everytime. And they cost 5 point less. The only thing possessed have over them is the invul save. And zerkers are WS 5 with Furious charge every game. So you always know what they are going to do.
   
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Alright, here be the dealio my homeslice. Did the Possessed tie up the Dreadnaught for longer? Yes. Did the Zerkers take more losses? Yes. That was all I said. Yes, I know a Powerfist is going to kill a Dread (albeit slowly). Granted, Rending and Icon of Tzeentch would have changed that significantly, but I digress.

I've found (by actually playing the unit *gasp*) that the lack of grenades are more of a benefit. If you can stay in Assault and wrap it up on the following turn, you get to skip being shot at for a turn. Generally units that are in cover (ie, shooty units, as assaulty ones are out trying to get into CC) are going to get over-powered by Possessed regardless of whether or not they swing first. I run mine with Icon of Nurgle, so that minimizes small arms damage, forcing the enemy to waste big guns on them. If they even take 3 Battlecannons away from my other units, they have done their job. Berserkers will not survive 1 Battlecannon, however, thus making them poorer for the task. If your army is seriously lacking a way to assault into and claim objectives, Berserkers are your man. That's what they are there for. Possessed serve a roll that can't be mathhammered out as easily, which is why you are having a hard time with it, since you've never used them. Things like Fleet and Scout and FnP have a huge effect without impacting their killiness, but you can't see that in the mathhammer.

As for comparing them to other choices, the Chosen need to take full weapons and an Icon (10 man, Champ, 2 Powerfists, 2 Meltaguns, 1 Dual LCs, Icon of Tzeentch, 320) to compare to Possessed (10 man, 260) out of the box, making them significantly more expensive. Terminators have the trouble of being transported places. Deepstriking Terminators I've found (again, by playing with them) have the problem of being force to sit there for a turn. In that turn, all the anti-TEQ fire gets turned on them. Now, while this can sometimes be better for being a fire soak, they aren't a fire soak until they arrive. The other option is putting them in a Landraider, and then the price tag sky rockets. The point is, they aren't all meant to compete for the same thing. Terminators are expensive heavy hitter units, Chosen have versitility but generally make great outflanking meltagunners.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/11 03:40:44


   
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Did the Possessed tie up the Dreadnaught for longer? Yes. Did the Zerkers take more losses? Yes.

How is it better they tied him up? And how did the zerkers take more losses when theyre still alive?

I've found (by actually playing the unit *gasp*) that the lack of grenades are more of a benefit. If you can stay in Assault and wrap it up on the following turn, you get to skip being shot at for a turn. Generally units that are in cover (ie, shooty units, as assaulty ones are out trying to get into CC) are going to get over-powered by Possessed regardless of whether or not they swing first. I run mine with Icon of Nurgle, so that minimizes small arms damage, forcing the enemy to waste big guns on them.

So because zerkers are better, theyre worse? Take less zerkers then if youre worried about this. That is a rule for something like a hive tyrant where theres only one unit. You save the difference of the points between Possessed and zerkers + 2 or 3 whole zerkers. So what if they get overpowered? I would hope so for 26 points. The fact is youre going to lose a couple of guys, so after everything else that unit did that game, theyre taking down 52 points right before they die.

If they even take 3 Battlecannons away from my other units, they have done their job. Berserkers will not survive 1 Battlecannon, however, thus making them poorer for the task

Youre assuming they are on foot first off. Second, no body is going to shoot a battlecannon at 3 guys, and then 1 guy.

If your army is seriously lacking a way to assault into and claim objectives, Berserkers are your man. That's what they are there for. Possessed serve a roll that can't be mathhammered out as easily, which is why you are having a hard time with it, since you've never used them. Things like Fleet and Scout and FnP have a huge effect without impacting their killiness, but you can't see that in the mathhammer.

If you need melee powerhouses, you take zerkers, period.

As for comparing them to other choices, the Chosen need to take full weapons and an Icon (10 man, Champ, 2 Powerfists, 2 Meltaguns, 1 Dual LCs, Icon of Tzeentch, 320) to compare to Possessed (10 man, 260) out of the box, making them significantly more expensive. Terminators have the trouble of being transported places. Deepstriking Terminators I've found (again, by playing with them) have the problem of being force to sit there for a turn. In that turn, all the anti-TEQ fire gets turned on them. Now, while this can sometimes be better for being a fire soak, they aren't a fire soak until they arrive. The other option is putting them in a Landraider, and then the price tag sky rockets. The point is, they aren't all meant to compete for the same thing. Terminators are expensive heavy hitter units, Chosen have versitility but generally make great outflanking meltagunners.


Chosen suck, and terminators are anti tank, but can hold their own in CC if thats what you want. They can also shoot.

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Seriously, how does the Skull Champion get four attacks with a Power Fist? Inquiring minds want to know.
   
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I vote for the Berzys...just 'coz they look better IMO!



...nothing else matters...


 
   
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And I don't need a melee powerhouse. I've got a Greater Daemon for that. (Generic Daemon hate, incoming! Brace for impact!!!)

EDIT: Nurglitch, he's on the charge. The contest was being charged though, but meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/11 04:07:20


   
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Halifax

DarkHound:

I can't brain today, I have the dumb! Skull Champions have A3...
   
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend






The sink.

DarkHound wrote:And I don't need a melee powerhouse. I've got a Greater Daemon for that. (Generic Daemon hate, incoming! Brace for impact!!!)

EDIT: Nurglitch, he's on the charge. The contest was being charged though, but meh.


Yeah greater demons are great. Except you have to sacrifice an champion for one. For my money have a powerfist is better than a greater demon. One of those things can't be targeted individually.

My point is the zerkers have a better chance at killing the dread, and that's what I want to do. I don't want to tie it up. Last game I played my DP was tied up with a dread for three turns because of bad armor pen rolls. I do not consider that a good thing. I wanted him to smoke the dread and then get on with killing the command squad nearby with a combination of warptime and wind of chaos. That's wound on a 4+ with no armor or cover with rerolls to wound.

And I don't see how lacking grenades is ever a benefit. I want my boys to strike at their initiative, because its a decent 4. If they were orks I wouldn't really care, most stuff is faster than them anyway. But any specialist assault unit needs grenades. Especially in an army like CSM where you pay lots of points for your models. I'm pretty shocked that possessed don't have them actually. I thought they did. But I use zerkers, because they're cheaper and more reliable.

And an icon of nurgle is what, 50 points? That's a whole possessed right there. I'd only run icon of nurgle on a 20 man squad, otherwise it's chaos glory for that cheap re-roll.

Possessed serve the same role as zerkers. They are both assault specialists. Zerkers just happen to be better. And there is no nebulous role that cannot be math hammered. You're just making up stuff now. I agree that fleet and scout have a big impact, but since you cannot reliably get the ability you want, possessed just aren't worth it. Reliable is the best quality for an army to have. A random power table, not so much.

I'm not sure how your chosen set up compares to 10 possessed. IMO having even one power sword makes chosen better because the possessed champ can't get one. If I could give my possessed champ a powerfist, you can bet your ass I'd take them.

As for termies, they are cheap heavy hitters as long as you don't give them a ton of stuff. Chaos termies are dirt cheap for what you get. I only ever give them a land raider if I'm using Abbadon, because otherwise he never makes it into CC. My all shooty all dancing termie squad has killed more than enough to earn my respect. But they can't hold objectives now. Zerkers can.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/11 04:46:18


 
   
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Noisy_Marine wrote:Possessed serve the same role as zerkers. They are both assault specialists. Zerkers just happen to be better. And there is no nebulous role that cannot be math hammered.

Against basic CSM Termies or Eldar Banshees, I think Possessed do better...

Each PW wound kills 21 pts of Zerks, but only 17 pts of Possessed. Go Possessed!

   
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Noisy_Marine wrote:Possessed serve the same role as zerkers. They are both assault specialists. Zerkers just happen to be better. And there is no nebulous role that cannot be math hammered. You're just making up stuff now.
Oh dear, you've found me out. I've just been trolling this entire time. Nope, nothing about them being shock troops compared to objective takers makes sense. I guess I'll go back to running my dual lash now.

   
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The sink.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Possessed serve the same role as zerkers. They are both assault specialists. Zerkers just happen to be better. And there is no nebulous role that cannot be math hammered.

Against basic CSM Termies or Eldar Banshees, I think Possessed do better...

Each PW wound kills 21 pts of Zerks, but only 17 pts of Possessed. Go Possessed!


/golfclap

DarkHound wrote:Oh dear, you've found me out. I've just been trolling this entire time. Nope, nothing about them being shock troops compared to objective takers makes sense. I guess I'll go back to running my dual lash now.


Who said anything about trolling? Not I.

What I'm getting is that zerkers *are* shock troopers and objective takers for less points than possessed.
   
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JohnHwangDD wrote:
Noisy_Marine wrote:Possessed serve the same role as zerkers. They are both assault specialists. Zerkers just happen to be better. And there is no nebulous role that cannot be math hammered.

Against basic CSM Termies or Eldar Banshees, I think Possessed do better...

Each PW wound kills 21 pts of Zerks, but only 17 pts of Possessed. Go Possessed!


And each Beserker that's left kills 1.6 tims as many Banshees as Possessed, and this is on recieving the charge. Of course, this is ignoring the chance of the Possessed getting the power weapon ability...But it is also ignoring the power fist on the Skull Champion. If the Beserkers get the charge instead (And the requisite shooting before hand), it is worse for the banshees.
   
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I had a nice FA army, prior to the previous Codex.


Which proves what? It doesn't prove that you somehow couldn't build "generic" CSM armies under the last codex, I did, I was quite happy with it, generic demons in the new dex mebbe made it marginly better, as I can now put down my Watchers in the Dark *cough*ringwraiths*cough*, down with less explanation but my Angels (read furies) got taken away...

40k5 pulled the Heavies and Specials on all units, so this is merely following along


Quite the non-answer.. I assume you're talking about a general reduction in squad option availbility, like the CSM's only getting a heavy at 10 men, and Chosen only getting one HW period, not that I see how that matters, since in a EC list, NM Havoks were still Havoks, and Havoks can still take 4 special or heavy weapons, just like they could before..

On your specific example, where you were blowing smoke, NM Havok units are not fieldable anymore.. Sure you can use the models, once you split them among more squads, and buy other EC's to fill out the 4 squads. Best case, assuming 4 Blastmaster,s in a 10 man squad, being spit to 4 5 man NM Squads, that gets you buying at least 1 box of marines... The likely splitting 4 Blastmasters, from a 6 man squad (6 being Slaneesh's favored) has you buying 14 more..

And all those marvelously flexible Havoks that somehow make up for the loss of the NM Havok squads? They were just as flexible before, I even had some in my army before the new codex. So, please explain how keeping something I had before, makes up for something I've lost? Usually when one claims that something makes up for a loss, it means you're getting something new, which the Havoks, just aren't.

In short, it doesn't seem that you've made much of a case that folks have gotten much more "freedom" to build stuff, and what folks have lost is quite concrete, sure you can whine about stuff being unbalanced, or underused, or having odd stats, but that sort of stuff can and frankly should be fixed in the pointvalues and statlines.



<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
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As I stated very early on, the current book has far greater freedom to mix marks, superior Troops selection, and non-restricted support (e.g. Raptors & Obliterators). That allows for more flexible builds overall.


   
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Let's run the numbers here...8 Possessed cost the same as 8 Beserkers including a Skull champion with a fist.

Against 10 marines with fist in cover - Beserkers shoot first, killing .9 Marines. The beserkers then strike first. 28 attacks leading to 4.1 dead marines. 4 Marines strike back, killing .3 Beserkers. Fists go, killing 2.2 marines and .8 Beserkers. This leaves 2.8 Marines facing 6.9 Beserkers.

Possed, on the other hand...Marines attack first, killing .8 Possessed (.4 on the 1 in 6 chance they had feel no pain).

1/3 of the time the Possessed kill 2.4 Marines, then lose another .6 Possessed. This leaves 7.6 Marines to 6.6 Possessed.

1/6 of the time (FnP), 2.5 Marines are killed, then .6 Possessed killed. 7.5 Marines to 7 Possessed.

1/6 of the time (FC) 3 Marines are killed, leaving 7 marines to 6.6 Possessed

1/6 of the time (Rending) 3.6 Marines killed, leaving 6.4 Marines vs 6.6 Possessed

1/6 of the time (Power Weapons) 7.3 Marines are killed, leaving 2.7 Marines vs 6.6 Possessed.

So, Beserkers kill 7.2 Marines for 1.1 casaulties (oh, and will be able to claim to objective due to 5th's clunky rules)

Possessed kill 3.5 Marines for 1.3 Casaulties (And do not hold the objective).

Still trying to claim Possessed are as effective as beserkers, when both share a common goal (assault)
   
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JohnHwangDD wrote:As I stated very early on, the current book has far greater freedom to mix marks


Since there aren't marks any more, rather icons that go away kinda a moot point.

superior Troops selection

6 entries now vs 11 in the old codex.

and non-restricted support (e.g. Raptors & Obliterators).


You could take as many Raptors and Oblits in an army before as you can now.

That allows for less flexible builds overall.


Fixed your quote for you. Especially since the new codex lost 4 entries from the fast attack section one from the troops section, and one from the heavy support section while adding no new units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/07/11 06:07:42


 
   
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Night Lords wrote:

Chosen suck, and terminators are anti tank, but can hold their own in CC if thats what you want. They can also shoot.


I beg to differ sir, I have used MeltaChosen to great effect, same with Plasma Chosen.
   
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BrotherStynier wrote:
Night Lords wrote:

Chosen suck, and terminators are anti tank, but can hold their own in CC if thats what you want. They can also shoot.


I beg to differ sir, I have used MeltaChosen to great effect, same with Plasma Chosen.


...Ok? They still suck whether you want to believe it or not.

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JohnHwangDD wrote:Against basic CSM Termies or Eldar Banshees, I think Possessed do better...

Each PW wound kills 21 pts of Zerks, but only 17 pts of Possessed. Go Possessed!
It may not be true of termies, actually.

If there's no Marks of Slaanesh, and berserkers get the charge, they're hitting first and they'll probably take a few termies down before they strike back.

I5 is pretty good for those types of situations.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
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Orkeosaurus wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Against basic CSM Termies or Eldar Banshees, I think Possessed do better...

Each PW wound kills 21 pts of Zerks, but only 17 pts of Possessed. Go Possessed!
It may not be true of termies, actually.

If there's no Marks of Slaanesh, and berserkers get the charge, they're hitting first and they'll probably take a few termies down before they strike back.

I5 is pretty good for those types of situations.


Shooting plus charge from Beserkers averags 2.5 dead Terminators before they can swing. About 1.5 dead from the fist.
   
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Night Lords wrote:
BrotherStynier wrote:
Night Lords wrote:

Chosen suck, and terminators are anti tank, but can hold their own in CC if thats what you want. They can also shoot.


I beg to differ sir, I have used MeltaChosen to great effect, same with Plasma Chosen.


...Ok? They still suck whether you want to believe it or not.




What Elites choice do you use then? Or do you not take one?
   
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BrotherStynier wrote:


What Elites choice do you use then? Or do you not take one?


Nothing except 3 terminators with combi-meltas the odd time. See Noisy Marines' list of viable units, as thats pretty much what i follow (though I take raptors to TRY to incorporate the night lords theme).

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[DCM]
Custodes Shield Captain





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

I see.

Yeah I need some Raptors for my Lords, or bikes I remember some old fluff mentioning them liking bikes as well.
   
 
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