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This thread has change my mind I no longer hate the chaos codex. JohnDD had nothing to do with it though.

Might give it another look through.

She thirsts, We dance, They die, He laughs.  
   
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Manhunter




Eastern PA

Nurglitch wrote:
Typhus is the Death Guard Lord unit. He has the Toughness Bonus, Feel No Pain, and Blight Grenades.


yeah i ran him alot too in the new book. my usual lists were all basiclly him and 6 PM squads. i just feel like his termies should be plague marines as well, and the havoks and everything else i have in my "deathguard"

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

studderingdave:

I don't think you'd actually want Terminators and Havocs that are Fearless, have Feel No Pain, -1I, and blight grenades on the latter.

The way that GW prices models, they would be considered prohibitively expensive and over-priced.

If we follow the analysis I made below about Possessed rather a long time ago we get something like

Plague Terminators
+1 Toughness - 6pts
+Fearless - 5pts
+Feel No Pain - 5pts
-1 Initiative - -1pt

So, exactly has a Plague Marine adds ~53% points cost to a Chaos Space Marine, a Plague Terminator adds 50% of cost to a Chaos Terminator. So they start at 45pts before upgrades, roughly.

Nurglitch wrote:So if it is found that Possessed are viable at their current cost, then what?

Taking Chaos Space Marines as the basic cost for the profile of the Possessed, let us see what their stats and abilities over that base-line sum up to:

Possessed have +1S, +1Ld, an Invulnerable Save, Fearless, and lack a Bolt Pistol or Bolter. They also have the Daemonkin rule.

Noise Marines, at 20 points apiece, have +1I (+3pts) and Fearless (+2 pts).

Plague Marines, at 23 points apiece, have +1T (+3pts), Feel No Pain (+3 pts), and Fearless (+2pts).

Berzerkers, at 21 points apiece, have +1WS (+2pt), +1A (+2pts), Furious Charge (+2pt), and Fearless (+2). But no Bolters. (-2pt)

If this is a reasonable approximation, then +2pts onto 15 for your basic Marine makes it reasonable for the Possessed point value.

Chosen pay 10 points for a Champion upgrade, for +1A, wargear, and Daemon-hosting ability, while Chaos Space Marines pay 15 points for a Champion upgrade, for +1A, +1Ld, wargear, and Daemon-hosting ability. So say 5 points for Leadership if it makes a difference, otherwise none (+0pts for Daemonkin).

So how much for the Invulnerable Save? Thousand Suns are 23 points each, but they have no Bolt pistol or Close Combat Weapon (-1A, -2pts), Slow and Purposeful (-/-), and the Sorcerer Commands (-1pts). They also have Inferno Bolts (+4pts), Fearless (+2pts) and a 4+ Invulnerable save (+5pts). Since the Mark of Tzeentch makes 5+ Invulnerable saves 4+ at 15pts for Lords that gain no massive psychic abilities, then that's at least three points (Lord has 3x the wounds of Thousand Suns) on top of the original Invulnerable save. That makes Invulnerable saves 2pts, eyeballing it like this.

Notice a pattern here? An extra rule/stat on top of the Chaos Space Marine profile is two points, plus one for every other extra rule/stat it interacts with directly (hence why Feel No Pain and +1T on Plague Marines costs so). So give it +2pts for the +1S.

Possessed Bonuses
+1S, +3pts
+1Ld, -pts
+1A, +3pts
Sv5++, +2pts
Fearless, +2pts
Bolt Pistol, -1pt
Bolter, -1pt
_____________
23pts

Daemonkin. 3pts (average)
[Fleet - 2pts
[Rending - 4pts
[Power Weapons - 4pts
[Furious Charge - 3pts
[Scout - 2pts
[Feel No Pain - 3pts

Total: 26 points.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting note: The above analysis forgets to factor in the I3 and Blight Grenades of the Plague Marines. Presumably they cancel out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 19:01:37


 
   
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Manhunter




Eastern PA

Nurglitch wrote:studderingdave:

I don't think you'd actually want Terminators and Havocs that are Fearless, have Feel No Pain, -1I, and blight grenades on the latter.

The way that GW prices models, they would be considered prohibitively expensive and over-priced.

If we follow the analysis I made below about Possessed rather a long time ago we get something like

Plague Terminators
+1 Toughness - 6pts
+Fearless - 5pts
+Feel No Pain - 5pts
-1 Initiative - -1pt

So, exactly has a Plague Marine adds ~53% points cost to a Chaos Space Marine, a Plague Terminator adds 50% of cost to a Chaos Terminator. So they start at 45pts before upgrades, roughly.


i would pay it gladly. if they had these options i wouldnt be as active in this thread.

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

And that's the issue.

One side wants all the options to be there. The other only wants what's there currently.

The thing is, if the side that wants all the options got their way everybody gets their way, as it doesn't stop the other side from continuing as they already have been.

   
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SoCal, USA!

studderingdave wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:studderingdave:

The way that GW prices models, they would be considered prohibitively expensive and over-priced.


i would pay it gladly. if they had these options i wouldnt be as active in this thread.


I'm sure that you would. And I'm sure that GW would love to give you the options. Heck, I would, too.

The down side would be that we'd end up with a lot of generally unused options along with a return of the balance problems we had before, and players would be up in arms about how GW can't balance a Codex. Or players would be up in arms about how GW didn't support their armies by producing every option available.

The fact of the matter is, a streamlined, flexible Codex that covers 90% of the bases, but does it in a balanced manner keeps the noise down, while allowing the vast majority of players to play their armies. The small number of players who want strongly-themed forces, like Plague Terminators, will either make do, or house rule it. For example, if you wanted to field "true" Plague Terminators against me, I'd allow you to pay +25 pts/model to upgrade each PM to wear Terminator armor.

The problem is when GW starts making these kinds of things in Index Astartes or other semi-official documents, then players start demanding to be allowed to field them "officially". We saw this throughout 3E, when GW tried to give all of the "fun" players all of the options that they could imagine, and GW was then lambasted for not having complete model support.

Ultimately, GW learned their lesson, and shrank the Codices down to things that they would have models for within a 2-year window of release, along with things that they could cleanly balance in their playtesting.

If the players could have been cool about things, as Apocalypse shows, I'm sure GW would be giving us far more expanded lists for optional, "friendly" play.

Blame the players, not GW.

   
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Well, I think I can blame GW for not giving Chaos the flavour codicies it needs. Deathguard, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion should play miles different regular CSM. I don't think Word Bearers and Alpha Legion would mind sharing a split codex (since they do play similarly, so long as the fluff sections really shout about how much they hate each other), so that we are down to an even 3 sub-codicies to the Loyalist 3. Then again, if you give a mouse a cookie... (for those of you who weren't read that bed time story, it means if they give us what we want, then they are going to cave in for what everyone else wants)

Like I said before, Legions aren't well represented here. If they were given their own codicies, balanced specifically for them it would work. The problem is, they have to pump out 3 more codicies when they are already need to update atleast 2 official codicies anyway.

   
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DarkHound wrote:Well, I think I can blame GW for not giving Chaos the flavour codicies it needs. Deathguard, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion should play miles different regular CSM. I don't think Word Bearers and Alpha Legion would mind sharing a split codex (since they do play similarly, so long as the fluff sections really shout about how much they hate each other), so that we are down to an even 3 sub-codicies to the Loyalist 3. Then again, if you give a mouse a cookie... (for those of you who weren't read that bed time story, it means if they give us what we want, then they are going to cave in for what everyone else wants)

Like I said before, Legions aren't well represented here. If they were given their own codicies, balanced specifically for them it would work. The problem is, they have to pump out 3 more codicies when they are already need to update atleast 2 official codicies anyway.


I think this is more than we're even asking for. Us Legion players just want ONE book with additions and changes to represent each legion. They can toss it all into one Codex:Traitor Legions. The old book had no more than a couple of pages per Legion and we were generally content. Chaos legions don't EACH need a codex, we just need army lists with expanded options to reflect the differences. I don't think that's terribly unreasonable considering how many loyalist chapters get their OWN codexes.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Blame the players, not GW.


Sigged.

   
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Down under

DarkHound wrote:
BeefyG wrote:The Chaos codex effectively killed 40k for me and my gaming group. I don't know if you can get larger FAIL than that.


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I have to say: if one codex broke down your gaming group, I don't know with whom the fail lies.


One codex did not break down our gaming group. Chaos was a last and biggest straw, as several players were included with this codex release rather than just individuals previously.

I played Night Lords and had gone to the trouble of ordering the Night Lords Helmets and customising my force and using bikes, raptors and multiple squads of furies. How do you feel if something "individual" is taken away from you, put in a food processor and served back to you through a straw.

To follow the analogy further:
How many Steak dinners that you've paid top dollar for (and are used to steak dinners) get served to you blended in a bowl with a straw before you stop ordering?

So to answer your non-jerk like statement (fair comment) - the fail lies intensely with the restaurant serving space food (hehe space...40k..hurr..get it?).

 
   
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
Blame the players, not GW.


Sigged.


That was just a jerk move.

Yeah, the Legions though would have to be pressed hard into JUST each Legion. Each Legion doesn't really have variations of tactics, so the Legions might end up boiling down to superficial variations on a standard core and that might piss more people off. What do you think?

   
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Chicago

DarkHound wrote:Yeah, the Legions though would have to be pressed hard into JUST each Legion. Each Legion doesn't really have variations of tactics, so the Legions might end up boiling down to superficial variations on a standard core and that might piss more people off. What do you think?


That's why I don't think we need a codex per Legion. Just a few rules to make each Legion feel right. Maybe cult armies and Word Bearers should get real daemons. That would certainly change things up. I think cult forces need something extra to justify the fact that they sacrifice that Black Legion-esque versatility. Sorry if this post is rambling or odd. The Mad Rabbit just took a lot of benadryl after a crappy allergy day. Major drowsiness.

The space marines are fairly decent at representing slight variants (i.e. White Scars bike army) but Chaos is really terrible for those slight changes that we want for our cult/legion forces. Honestly, I'd play a cult army if they had something special going for them. Noise Marines interest me but I can't justify a whole new army if the rules say that I can mix them freely in with my Night Lords without any sort of restrictions.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

DarkHound wrote:That was just a jerk move.


Takes two to tango. But fair enough, I'll remove it after this post. To not do so would make me a hypocrite, and that's dishonest, and I hate dishonestly. I apologise for that.

DarkHound wrote:Each Legion doesn't really have variations of tactics, so the Legions might end up boiling down to superficial variations on a standard core and that might piss more people off.


Well they didn't before, why would suddenly do that now?

But wait, hold on, you're not saying that if they did it now (ie. made Legion rules) it would be very bad and no one would like it, therefore let's not even try. You're not actually saying that, are you?



Ok, time for me to have a big heaping slice of humble pie here, drop the snarkiness (which is quite fun, I admit) and just respond normally to someone.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heck, I would, too.


I'd say you wouldn't. That's not a dig, I just think you wouldn't. It's contradictory to your previous comments, so I cannot see how this would be true. Anyway, this point is relatively minor, so we'll get to the body of the text.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The down side would be that we'd end up with a lot of generally unused options along with a return of the balance problems we had before, and players would be up in arms about how GW can't balance a Codex. Or players would be up in arms about how GW didn't support their armies by producing every option available.


Not quite, and that last one is a slippery slope logical fallacy (ie. X must automatically lead to Y), and I'll explain why:

1. We have a host of generally unused options already. How would this be any different?
2. We have balance problems already. How would this be any different?
3. Players were up in arms about GW's inability to balance a Codex before this Chaos Codex and the last one, and will continue to do so in the future. So how would this be any different?

GW didn't support every option before - there were no models for Berzerker Bikers, Noise Marine Terminators, Plague Marine Possessed or Thousand... ok they don't really count as the Rhubric limited their modelling options. The other Legions, from a modelling perspective, were just paint job and like any paint job could be altered. There was no outcry though. People made their own models using the bits from others - a simple headswap would give any player a squad of Khornate Bikers. Mounting Sonic Weapons on Terminators was easy. A few extra tentacles on a Plague Marine and bingo, you've got your possessed.

You're not trying to say that there'd be an outcry about unused options, then balance, then GW's inability to balance and then modelling - all problems that are either no different to what we had before or what we have now, or problems that simply don't exist (the modelling one).

I like the fact that you're attempting to make a reasoned argument (for a change) DD, but it's still not right.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact of the matter is, a streamlined, flexible Codex that covers 90% of the bases...


Whoa! Ok, stop. Hold on. This is a faith-based statement John, alright, not an absolute. I may harp on about "opinion stated as fact", but the fact of the matter is you do keep doing this. All the time. Then you yell at people when they disagree with your opinion or add the meaningless after though "Well it's just my opinion" which is about as useless as calling someone a complete fether, insulting their mother and punching them and then going "Just kidding!" or "No offence!" at the end.

As to the quote above, nobody agrees that it covers '90%' of the bases (and where do you even get the 90% figure from?), and there is contention see that it's flexible (especially considering that it took lots of stuff away and didn't give everything back). You've seen several people in this thread say that already, you've seen the contention. If you haven't, then you are purposefully ignoring what people have been saying - I'm not saying me, forget about me, I'm saying all the others in this thread, Orkeosar, Fraz, White Rabbit and so on. You cannot unilaterally declare your above quote to be true for no other reason than you say so, and that John, if I'm being honest, is why I take such an issue with your posts.

Essentially your lines of thinking boil down to this:

"Item X is always like this, therefore Y is always the case."

You allow no room for disagreement, you simply state what is, and base your conclusions on that. And then, when someone says "I disagree" you come back not with a reasoned response as to why you think you are right, you simply repeat your original statement without change. This continues back and forth a few times until the other person just gives up out of exhaustion, at which point you often just claim victory - "I'm right". Well, no, the other person just can't be bothered fighting against an immovable object and really, who can blame them. That's why there's friction between the two of us, because I'm insanely stubborn - a lot like you really - and I don't give up like others - you only have to look at the thread about Forge World items in Discussions to see that kind of behaviours. So where others might say "Bugger it, I can't be bothered" and walk away, I keep coming at your arguments, which is why it probably seems that I'm coming after you specifically (not to say that I haven't come after you specifically outside of an argument, but we'll set those instances aside for a moment).

But I digress. I'll put the above quote back in context and continue.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The fact of the matter is, a streamlined, flexible Codex that covers 90% of the bases but does it in a balanced manner keeps the noise down, while allowing the vast majority of players to play their armies. The small number of players who want strongly-themed forces, like Plague Terminators, will either make do, or house rule it. For example, if you wanted to field "true" Plague Terminators against me, I'd allow you to pay +25 pts/model to upgrade each PM to wear Terminator armor.


1. But it's not balanced John. How can you honestly believe that the current Chaos Codex is balanced? The fact that the 2 Lash/9 Oblit army exists is a testament to the fact that, like all GW Codices, the Chaos Codex is no more balanced (or unbalanced) than any other Codex.
2. You cannot claim that there are a "small" amount of people who want to play lists. What are you basing this one? What do you have to back up your assertions besides your own opinions? You may well be right - who knows? - but you cannot simply state it. I come from a school of thought that ensures that I never make a statement without backing myself first (or, at least, try to - can't be right all the time nor can I be expected to know all the facts). Now I realise that not everyone is like me (thank God!), but surely anyone can see the flaws in just stating that something covers 90% of the bases and that the small number of people who disagree aren't all that important. How does it cover 90%? Based on what? How are they a small group? How do you know that? You don't, so you cannot state it. Or if you do, then please explain it to us so we can see why and we'll let it drop. I have to believe that you can see where I'm coming from John.
3. You'd allow the upgrade to Terminators, and that's fine. But the very fact that you're talking about homebrew just proves that there are problems with the existing Codex. If you have to even consider the concept of changing rules to help yourself or help another player achieve what they've lost, then the Codex is not achieving its goal of being 'flexible', as you claim.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The problem is when GW starts making these kinds of things in Index Astartes or other semi-official documents, then players start demanding to be allowed to field them "officially". We saw this throughout 3E, when GW tried to give all of the "fun" players all of the options that they could imagine, and GW was then lambasted for not having complete model support.


The next most frustrating part of your standard argument John are paragraphs like this one. It's some kind of pseudo-red herring strawman OJ Simpson style defence. Why? Because:

1. It's either only partially related to the topic at hand or not related at all (Red Herring). I don't agree that X is bad because Y was worse, therefore Z.
2. No one's brought it up but you, you brought it up only to disprove it or who why it's bad (Strawman). You think X is bad? Well Y is also bad, therefore X is bad.
3. You're forcing those that disagree with you to prove or disprove things that you've brought up before getting back to the main point (OJ Simpson Defence). You thing X is bad? Well A, B, Y, K, L and O - prove that before we get back to X!

Back in context, it's got nothing to do with Chapter Approved or Index Astartes and the simple reason for that is that it didn't before, or, it doesn't need to. They were in the Codex and they worked (for the most part, 1KSons had its issues and Iron Warriors were victims of author bias). You didn't need Chapter Approved or to carry around extra outdated rules - you had a single list, and then the variant lists came off that list without any issue, and the odd unique unit in there, like a Basilisk or Cultists or whatever.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ultimately, GW learned their lesson, and shrank the Codices down to things that they would have models for within a 2-year window of release, along with things that they could cleanly balance in their playtesting.


GW changes horses multiple times during a race. We see that every couple of Codices. We saw it between Chaos and Marines. With Chaos they removed the flexibility, ripped away the variant Legions, and left a basic list with dramatically reduced options. Still powerful - no arguments there, and this isn't an argument about power - but the list was bare. I suspect, based upon what I've seen here in the two years (or so) since the Codex came out that many people's armies were invalidated or at least shifted to the point where they were essentially playing 'Counts As' with a list that was legal a month before hand.

And then the Marine Codex came along in all its glory, and the Marines got to keep their variant Chapters, this time via Special Characters rather than the well-conceived but horribly clunky Traits system.

So it can't be a case of GW 'learning their lesson'. They ripped most of the Chaos Codex away one week and then allowed Marines to keep their variant lists (albeit in a slightly different fashion) within one or two Codices of one another. I'd argue (Note: argue, not state as fact) that GW hasn't learnt any lesson, they're just acting on a whim. The Chaos Codex was 'reactionary' - Oh it's overpowered let's take away all the options!!!! - where as the Marine Codex was 'celebratory' - It's a new edition! Let's start with a bang and give the biggest bestest Marine Codex we've ever done! They changed horses, changed mindsets, changed design ethos, all within a few books.

And the Chaos players suffer because of it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If the players could have been cool about things, as Apocalypse shows, I'm sure GW would be giving us far more expanded lists for optional, "friendly" play.


So, what, Apoc is the new Chapter Approved? A safety net they can use whenever they don't do something? "What's that - you can't use your army any more, well just use it in Apoc then!" Apoc can't be a crutch for lazy game design. The phrase "Well you can just use it in Apoc" should never be something that gets said with any level of seriousness attached to it.

And yeah, 'blame the players, not GW', while I think you were being facetious, is a very silly thing to say. But I think you know that.

I'll leave at that for now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/07/10 04:56:22


   
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LOL back in earlier days GW gave you special characters for strictly ONLY friendly play. If players were ever cool about things it was letting your opponent field their requisite special character.

Now Apocalypse is a free for all environment that "Doesn't work without players co-operation". This is far from a similar environment to the one described above.

GW have a track record of only learning from fiscal error. Everything else is apparently random.

 
   
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See I wouldn't say random, I'd say a combined case of having too many masters to serve, and too many cooks spoiling the soup.

One one hand you've got higher-ups with different agendas (that change in reactionary fashion to how well they're doing financially) telling them to do one thing, and then you've got a studio full of ideas, yet wildly varying ideas, not all of which work together (just look at the formatting and style changes we've had in Codices between the last Marine Codex and the current one - and how else would we end up in a situation where items with the same name have different rules between Codices?). I'm sure they mean well, but when all this comes together we're left with the stumbling and lurching mess that is the GW Codex design and release schedule.

I feel sorry for them really, being caught between two masters - money vs creativity - and I don't ever see them improving.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/07/10 05:40:16


   
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As much as I would like to have improvements made for the playing of legions, I think the Lost and the Damned need a codex more.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
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The sink.

The 3.5 codex had much, much better artwork than the current codex. I hate you John Blanche.

And I agree that oblits are necessary to be competitive. A oblit is 95 points cheaper than a ten man csm squad with lascannon. If you want lascannons, then take oblits. That and their SAP makes them outshine all other Heavy Support choices.

And I agree the current codex is far too cookie cutter. Army construction goes like this:

HQ - take a demon prince. Or Kharn.

ELITES - Termies if you like them. Ignore the rest.

TROOPS - Take your favorite flavor of cult troop. This is the best part of the army list.

FAST ATTACK - Meh. I honestly am not impressed by bikes or raptors.

HEAVY - Oblits, then maybe a Vindi or a Defiler. Then another one, because large blasts are cool.

And that's it. There's no reason to take anything else.

And to all those who oppose CSM and demons together I just say WTF? Demons differentiate CSM from loyalists. Otherwise we end up with marines minus ATSKNF but with Demonic Possession on their rhinos. We need more stuff to differentiate CSM not less. And the deployment rules for demons in the demon codex are just dumb. It's like playing a drop pod marine army without all the benefits from drop pods. That's fething fun!!!
   
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Noisy_Marine wrote:And the deployment rules for demons in the demon codex are just dumb. It's like playing a drop pod marine army without all the benefits from drop pods. That's fething fun!!!


It also doesn't make any damned sense. Why does your army show up to fight? On the off-chance a Daemon army might appear?

"Colonel Archer."
"Yes Captain."
"May I speak freely sir?"
"You may."
"Why are we here?"
"To serve the Emperor of course!"
"No, sir, I meant, why are we here? In this section of ruins?"
"To defend it."
"The enemy are no where near here. That Sergeant from the Nova Marines told us that this morning. The enemy are moving west, away from our position."
"The Daemons, Captain. The Daemons."
"Sorry sir?"
"A Daemonic army might appear here. It's happened before."
"They're going to appear here?"
"They might."
"You mean to say then, sir, that we don't know if they're going to be here?"
"No."
"Then... what's to stop them from appearing somewhere else? A mile away? Ten? Behind our lines. In front or someone else's lines."
"Well... nothing I suppose."
"That doesn't make much sense sir. Would it not be better to be in a more central location ready to respond quickly to a threat, rather than sitting here, wide on our flank, on the off chance the Daemons show up?"
"Hmm... you raise an interesting point. Lord Commissar Calgar, what do you think?"
*Commissar Calgar shoots the Captain in the face with his Bolt Pistol*
"Questioning orders defies the will of the Emperor."
"I agree Commisar. Lieutenant, have the Captain's body removed. We'll show those Daemons who the best waiters in the Imperium are!"

It's just... silly!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/07/10 08:07:36


   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






JohnHwangDD wrote:Mostly right (IIRC, only Chosen had Infiltrate, not all basic CSM), and as things have evolved:


nope, every standard chaos undivided marine squad could take a veteran skill. one additional thing i noticed when trying to make my army list is that, for some unknown reason, chaos characters can't take retinues/command squads/entourages/etc. IG, SM, Eldar, Tau, Nids, etc all can but chaos marine characters are apparently too cool for school.

   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Noisy_Marine wrote:The 3.5 codex had much, much better artwork than the current codex. I hate you John Blanche.

And I agree that oblits are necessary to be competitive. A oblit is 95 points cheaper than a ten man csm squad with lascannon. If you want lascannons, then take oblits. That and their SAP makes them outshine all other Heavy Support choices.

And I agree the current codex is far too cookie cutter. Army construction goes like this:

HQ - take a demon prince. Or Kharn.

ELITES - Termies if you like them. Ignore the rest.

TROOPS - Take your favorite flavor of cult troop. This is the best part of the army list.

FAST ATTACK - Meh. I honestly am not impressed by bikes or raptors.

HEAVY - Oblits, then maybe a Vindi or a Defiler. Then another one, because large blasts are cool.

And that's it. There's no reason to take anything else.

And to all those who oppose CSM and demons together I just say WTF? Demons differentiate CSM from loyalists. Otherwise we end up with marines minus ATSKNF but with Demonic Possession on their rhinos. We need more stuff to differentiate CSM not less. And the deployment rules for demons in the demon codex are just dumb. It's like playing a drop pod marine army without all the benefits from drop pods. That's fething fun!!!


This bugs me. It's like you took 30 seconds to flip through the codex. You can make a cruelly "cheesy" build around Gift of Chaos, just to blow your mind. My Renegades are built around Possessed and the Generic Daemons, and we are rockin'. Start thinking like an Eldar player (every army benefits from this). Things with weaknesses need to be supported by other units that make up for it. Everything has a weakness, and Fzorgle makes up for most of its weaknesses. This doesn't mean that no other combination is worth taking, it was just the first one people came up with, so they stopped looking.

Daemons aren't the only thing that makes Chaos different from CSM. We can cover our bases better with our troops. We have better objective holders, better shooting, and/or better assaulting from our troops that we can augment with our other slots. Space Marines get a solid, rugged troop choice, but then have to cover their other bases with their other slots. The thought process for list design is fundamentally different. Codexaemons is an issue for another time though.

   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator






The people arguing that the codex is actually decent are arguing for the sake of arguing. There have been what? 2? 3 people in this topic who have agreed? Its funny how its always the minority arguing, making 20 posts each trying to press their opinion on others (yes, you are pressing opinions saying "X is the same as it was in the old codex if you just take Y and Z together" or anything similar). I mean seriously, Nurglitch is one of the few arguing, and I was reading in another topic where he actually tries to argue spawn are good - You know, the "fast attack" unit that costs 40 points with no save, Slow and purposeful, and the mindless rule where you cannot even control it. I believe it was voted in a few places as the worst unit in 40k.

Anyone can waste their time and take random, subpar units. Some people did before because it fit the theme of their army. However, some (judging by the 100 topics on this exact same issue, id say most) people do not want to waste 2 hours of their time getting slaughtered while being unable to control their units. 40k is all about averages whether you want to believe it or not, and in the chaos codex, there is a huge difference in the averages between the units, to the point where half the codex (at the very least) is obsolete if you want to take a good list.

Noise Marine got it perfect. His summary of the Chaos units is dead on. I would even say the vindicator is a waste.

The thing with 3.5 was that it had all these options (aside from a few that actually made sense, like no cross lists) but compensated you if you played differently. Here all you get are different painted marines.

Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Vampire Counts 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Night Lords wrote:The people arguing that the codex is actually decent are arguing for the sake of arguing. There have been what? 2? 3 people in this topic who have agreed? Its funny how its always the minority arguing, making 20 posts each trying to press their opinion on others (yes, you are pressing opinions saying "X is the same as it was in the old codex if you just take Y and Z together" or anything similar). I mean seriously, Nurglitch is one of the few arguing, and I was reading in another topic where he actually tries to argue spawn are good - You know, the "fast attack" unit that costs 40 points with no save, Slow and purposeful, and the mindless rule where you cannot even control it. I believe it was voted in a few places as the worst unit in 40k.

Anyone can waste their time and take random, subpar units. Some people did before because it fit the theme of their army. However, some (judging by the 100 topics on this exact same issue, id say most) people do not want to waste 2 hours of their time getting slaughtered while being unable to control their units. 40k is all about averages whether you want to believe it or not, and in the chaos codex, there is a huge difference in the averages between the units, to the point where half the codex (at the very least) is obsolete if you want to take a good list.

Noise Marine got it perfect. His summary of the Chaos units is dead on. I would even say the vindicator is a waste.

The thing with 3.5 was that it had all these options (aside from a few that actually made sense, like no cross lists) but compensated you if you played differently. Here all you get are different painted marines.


I... I just don't know where to begin. We are argueing because we think there is life in this codex that other people aren't seeing. Just because your views (and even the majority's views) are different doesn't mean we are wrong and MUST be trolling for saying otherwise. I think I read the same thread that Nurglitch was in. He wasn't argueing Spawn was good, but that Gift of Chaos was good. You can take enough Tzeentch marked psychers to turn everyone else into Spawn, for free after buying the power. This is when Spawn are effective.

Half the codex isn't obsolete if you want to make a good list, you just aren't looking hard enough (or at all apparently). I'm not saying that taking X and Y is the same thing as Z from the old dex. That isn't even remotely what I said. I'm saying that units are effective when you compinsate for their weaknesses. It is not specific to Chaos, but I think it is something people who say that there are very few "good" lists in the dex have forgotten. Synergy people! If you don't support a shooty army with some CC units, or some defensive tricks, a CC army is going to roll you if they get close. Oblits are slow and get picked off by sneaky melee units, so I either sit them next to my Defiler to scare off melee units or Deepstrike them off my Icons, depending on what weapons and ranges I need them to bring. If your list has no synergy, then it will fall flat on its face. I'm sorry if now you have to think about what units are good for your specific list.

"I would even say the vindicator is a waste." I don't know how much more cost effective you want units. It provides ample protection from Terminators and Hordes alike, and 2 of them are just amazing. What exactly makes them a waste?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/10 23:00:55


   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yup. So, given that it's all arbitrary, why shouldn't I have the freedom to make my own?


The problem with that argument is that you -could- make your own, I have a very nice Fallen Angels army made just that way...
The cults gave some players more options, (with some restrictions too... ) the new book takes those options away, and doesn't signifigantly add to the vanilla lists that wasn't there before (okay, -mebbe- the vindicator but...)

<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in gb
Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




Manchester

Hahahaha i cant belive this thread
i thourght it would be ignored but look at the response

please use it to discuss


ABH

I'm always looking for new players for system-less one on one RPG's via MSN and Email PM me if your interested!
 
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

Similarly, Havocs "losing" Cult weapon options, despite those models being fieldable as regular NM, is easily made up by their sheer versatility with regular Special and Heavy weapons.


Um, no.. First off, the kink in the Havok rules is that you got -multiple- special or heavy choices that could trade up to Doom Sirens or Blastmasters, "normal" NM's are now restricted to one blastmaster and one doomsiren per squad, barring the Apoc EC formation, those options are -gone-. Secondly, what you're claiming "makes up for it" -was in the last codex allready-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/10 23:18:48


<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend






The sink.

DarkHound wrote:

This bugs me. It's like you took 30 seconds to flip through the codex. You can make a cruelly "cheesy" build around Gift of Chaos, just to blow your mind. My Renegades are built around Possessed and the Generic Daemons, and we are rockin'. Start thinking like an Eldar player (every army benefits from this). Things with weaknesses need to be supported by other units that make up for it. Everything has a weakness, and Fzorgle makes up for most of its weaknesses. This doesn't mean that no other combination is worth taking, it was just the first one people came up with, so they stopped looking.

Daemons aren't the only thing that makes Chaos different from CSM. We can cover our bases better with our troops. We have better objective holders, better shooting, and/or better assaulting from our troops that we can augment with our other slots. Space Marines get a solid, rugged troop choice, but then have to cover their other bases with their other slots. The thought process for list design is fundamentally different. Codexaemons is an issue for another time though.


Nope, I've owned this codex for over 2 years now. I still see no reason to take possessed or generic demons. And I never use Lash because it makes me feel bad for my opponent.

Things that differentiate CSM: demons, older weapons, demonic tech, 10k year old characters and veterans. Cult units weren't troops until this codex. In every other codex they were elites, unless your lord shared a mark with that cult - then it became a troop. Currently CSM are like tac marines and assault marines rolled into one. Which is good for me, because most of mine have bolt pistols. *shrug*
   
Made in us
Bane Thrall





New England

oh, one more thing... generic dameons I coulda lived with... but they took away my Nurglings and Furies..

<Rarity> I am not whining, I am complaining! Do you want to hear whining?

Thiiis is whiiiiining! Oooo, this mini is too expeennsive! I'm' going brrookee! Can't you make it cheaper? Oh, it's resin and not metal anymore! Why didn't you take it off the sprue first? That's gonna leave a pour spout, and the FLGS is so far away, WHY DO I HAVE TO SUPPORT IIIIIIIT?! </Rairty>  
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Man, I'm so glad I made this thread. I can just toss it down whenever anyone wants to know about Possessed: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/231940.page

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

Lanceradvanced wrote:oh, one more thing... generic dameons I coulda lived with... but they took away my Nurglings and Furies..

Nurglings!!..Holy gak, I was so busy complaining about Lords & Terminators and such that I didn't even mention the pile of NurglingsI have that are now all but useless,well,unless I choose to use them as a "single generic lesser daemon" choice.


"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

I am Red/Black
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Made in us
Dominar






DarkHound wrote:
Half the codex isn't obsolete if you want to make a good list, you just aren't looking hard enough (or at all apparently).


If there were other competitive lists besides some variation on Plague Marines and OBLITS/OBLITS/OBLITS, then we'd see them. In 4th ed, the Daemonbomb army was moderately effective because not every list was mech, which is definitely the trend in 5th. Since 5th ed requires a competitive assault army to be able to crack transports via shooting, you need to add ranged firepower, and unfortunately the best way to do this is to add Oblits and even Lash shouldn't be ignored because it synergizes with Daemon assaults.

In other words, the most competitive way to play Daemons is as a variant of Lash/Oblits.

"I would even say the vindicator is a waste." I don't know how much more cost effective you want units. It provides ample protection from Terminators and Hordes alike, and 2 of them are just amazing. What exactly makes them a waste?


Because two oblits lay down more firepower for similar points. Against vehicles you have an array of S7, 8+melta, and 9 weapons to choose from, some of which are twin linked and/or have the coveted AP1. Against hordes or even small squads two small blasts will hit more models than a single large blast. They have the same minimum number of targets hit (0) with higher averages and maximums.

The Vindicator is an okay unit, but S10/AP2 isn't as much of a deterrent to either Terminators or Hordes as S7/AP2 twice is.
   
 
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