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Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







BeefyG wrote:The Chaos codex effectively killed 40k for me and my gaming group. I don't know if you can get larger FAIL than that.


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I have to say: if one codex broke down your gaming group, I don't know with whom the fail lies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 02:14:35


   
Made in us
Manhunter




Eastern PA

DarkHound wrote:But they CAN exist in the game. You MAKE them exist in the game by playing your army. The story isn't in the list! It isn't in the codex! It never has been! It is in the models! The holy trinity of tabletops, modeling, story and gaming. Modelling tells a story, while gaming progresses that story through the models. So long as you can have Plague Marines, the Deathguard will march on. Just because it there isn't a big, boldfaced "DEATHGUARD" over that section in the codex doesn't mean they disappear. I can see where it stings that someone will run a similar list that isn't the Deathguard, but so long as they follow the rules this can always happen. The Deathguard is in the models and the paint. I mean, look at Traitor Guard currently (and this isn't an invitation to cry about LatD, we went over that already). They use regular Guard lists, but the thing that sets it appart are the models.


your missing my point partially. i understand that in my fluff i can call them deathguard, im all about that. but in the GAME they arnt, and they were in the last book. if i could have deathguard havoks, lords, DP's and termies, i wouldnt be posting here. like i said before i would be willing to drop FNP and blight grenades to make the MoN the same across the board.

again, my main gripe, and its my largest gripe is icon termies and non DG lords and DP's leading plague marines. i know it seems like such a small thing, but to me it isnt. i dont want flexibilty, i want my deathguard.

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

DarkHound wrote:
BeefyG wrote:The Chaos codex effectively killed 40k for me and my gaming group. I don't know if you can get larger FAIL than that.


I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I have to say: if one codex broke down your gaming group, I don't know with whom the fail lies.

You know something? I've had it up to here with your pinko-commie notions of personal responsibility. Take your high falutin' liberalist ivory-tower book-learn', and go back to Russia!

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

studderingdave wrote:
DarkHound wrote:But they CAN exist in the game. You MAKE them exist in the game by playing your army. The story isn't in the list! It isn't in the codex! It never has been! It is in the models! The holy trinity of tabletops, modeling, story and gaming. Modelling tells a story, while gaming progresses that story through the models. So long as you can have Plague Marines, the Deathguard will march on. Just because it there isn't a big, boldfaced "DEATHGUARD" over that section in the codex doesn't mean they disappear. I can see where it stings that someone will run a similar list that isn't the Deathguard, but so long as they follow the rules this can always happen. The Deathguard is in the models and the paint. I mean, look at Traitor Guard currently (and this isn't an invitation to cry about LatD, we went over that already). They use regular Guard lists, but the thing that sets it appart are the models.


your missing my point partially. i understand that in my fluff i can call them deathguard, im all about that. but in the GAME they arnt, and they were in the last book. if i could have deathguard havoks, lords, DP's and termies, i wouldnt be posting here. like i said before i would be willing to drop FNP and blight grenades to make the MoN the same across the board.

again, my main gripe, and its my largest gripe is icon termies and non DG lords and DP's leading plague marines. i know it seems like such a small thing, but to me it isnt. i dont want flexibilty, i want my deathguard.

I agree with studderingdave,my Death Guard army is now several sqauds of Plague marines being led by a lord with MON or a DP with MON with several MON terminators,I know this may seem "small potatoes" but to me it really isn't,this is an army I put alot of time into that the curent codex has altered.
Sure I could "write up" some new fluff to fit with the new dex,but the point is,I shouldn't have to.


"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







I'm too elitist to see how communism would work in real life. History proves it anyway. I think socialism can work though, it just needs a direct democratic augmentation. Granted, it still isn't my ideal style of government, but that is a story for another thread.

ANYWAY, I'm still not getting that the lack of offical title makes them not Deathguard. As far as lists were concerned, weren't Deathguard just Plague Marines being led by Nurgle marked HQs, Termies, etc. anyway?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The biggest problem with the codex is the icons...You have Khorne Beserkers. Give them terminator armor and suddenly they run away when a couple guys in the squad are killed. Not to mention that when the icon gets killed, the whole squad forgets that it's dedicated to a god.

The idea of generic daemons sucks...Should have made them markable with the same bonus as the icons give. Not overpowered, but gives them flavor.

Not to mention that I lost the ability to use models...I had 10 guys modeled as centaurs to represent daemonic speed (Lord, Lt, and 8 chosen) plus my cultists...Not to mention, that my squads of CSM were not legal any more. I identify my squads to make things easier for my opponent and me, and I made my squads 8 men strong LIKE WHAT CAME IN THE BOX. Two specials or a heavy and a special in each. so either I buy more models or I have to use one less guy, rendering MORE models useless.

Btw, I thought the usual thing to do with trolls (Like John) is to simply ignore them rather than let them get the attention that they lavish. Just hit the report button and ignore him.

HBMC, Plague marines can take two specials regardless of squad size.

As for the people saying that the legions are removed just like all the other army's abilities to alter the FOC, and old phrase comes to mind...If you tell a lie often enough and loud enough, people start to believe that it's the truth. Wazdakka, Nobs as troops, Dreads as troops, Terminators or Ravenguard as troops, scoring Sternguard, Bikes as troops, Assault squads as troops, fast attack, or elites. Most of the new lists that have come out have had a way of haivng sublists that altered the FOC or something very similar. Not so with the Chaos codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 03:05:09


 
   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator






I dont understand how this topic is at 7 pages. He asked why its hated so much, people have given him answers. Obviously enough people hate it if this guy hears how much it sucks. Just because YOU do like it, it doesnt mean others have to, nor does it necessarily mean it doesnt suck. Ofcourse there are some people who are going to like it - theres thousands of people who play Chaos. However, for what seems like (easily) the majority, its not fun, and many have moved on to other armies (tyranids here).

Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Vampire Counts 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've moved on to Fantasy...After 5th edition came out.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







This is called a discussion Night Lords, we keep talking until there is nothing to talk about. There is something at the bottom of the codex hate, and I'd like to get at it personally. I'm not trying to make you love this codex. I'm trying to pick your brain. Why is it YOU don't like the codex and I do? That is interesting, and I'd like to find out. Mostly I've seen the invalidation of armies is the biggest gripe. At the risk of getting yelled at, I could fix a Blastmaster filled army with counts-as, as the sound weapons have multiple settings. It'd probably get some points for style on the table too.

There are little tweaks every codex wants. I'd like points per model Icons. I'd like markable daemons, but I think daemons not being as powerful as they are in a full daemonic invasion makes sense. It has always been much harder for daemons to sustain themselves in the material plane without a large rip in the materium. I'd like orks to have more options for the Warboss. I'd love it if Tau's infantry were 8pts. Most of all though, I'd like a new Dark Eldar codex and model line. I've been a good boy this year GW, really.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

DarkHound wrote:I'm too elitist to see how communism would work in real life. History proves it anyway. I think socialism can work though, it just needs a direct democratic augmentation. Granted, it still isn't my ideal style of government, but that is a story for another thread.

ANYWAY, I'm still not getting that the lack of offical title makes them not Deathguard. As far as lists were concerned, weren't Deathguard just Plague Marines being led by Nurgle marked HQs, Termies, etc. anyway?

Well,politics aside...No,Death Guard were not just Plague Marines bieng led by Nurgle marked HQs (well of course they were marked by Nurgle,but in a different manner of speaking),and Plague terminator are Plague Marines who have aquired terminator armour,now we have terminators with MON...it's not the same thing.
The thing is,of course I can "call" my Death Guard "death guard",but the current codex has renedered them into somthing less, and I sincerly hope that when GW finaly dose it's next "chaos tome"we will get cult list back,for me it's not about "power builds",it's about flavor and depth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 03:30:44



"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
 
   
Made in ca
Morphing Obliterator






DarkHound wrote:This is called a discussion Night Lords, <just cut the rest for simplicity>


I would agree with you, but there are clearly a few people in this topic pressing their opinion on others. These people have many posts in this topic trying to convince others that the codex does not suck, or posts where they make stupid assumptions of those that do not like it.

Im pretty sure weve reached the bottom of the reason. How many times does loss of themed/fun/unique/customized/etc. armies need to be brought up before we conclude that this is, indeed, the reason people do not like it?

My reason is simple - its bland. No themed armies, and broken units (which makes making a themed army even harder). There is no picking my brain out of this.

Chaos Space Marines
Tyranids
Vampire Counts 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm tired of hearing "Deathguard don't exist anymore." That means that the Soul Drinkers, Emperor's Swords, Blood Ravens, various Tau Cepts, the main 'Nid hive fleets, Imperial Guard Tallarans, and every other force that is mentioned in the codex but not given a unit or list to represent them doesn't exist. So only armies with their own codicies or unit choices specific to them "exist?"


I think the point of that statement is that the army list you can use to represent that force in the fluff has been steadily moving to a more and more general list. Instead of lots of Nurgle-specific goodies, DG players are in a hellish land of "counts-as" and logical inconsistencies (i.e. cult terminators).

It's the same as saying "Oh, well they stopped supporting CSM, so I'll just play counts-as Space Marines."

I mean, they're still power armored superhumans, who cares if it's more generic?

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
Made in us
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Mad Rabbit wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm tired of hearing "Deathguard don't exist anymore." That means that the Soul Drinkers, Emperor's Swords, Blood Ravens, various Tau Cepts, the main 'Nid hive fleets, Imperial Guard Tallarans, and every other force that is mentioned in the codex but not given a unit or list to represent them doesn't exist. So only armies with their own codicies or unit choices specific to them "exist?"


I think the point of that statement is that the army list you can use to represent that force in the fluff has been steadily moving to a more and more general list. Instead of lots of Nurgle-specific goodies, DG players are in a hellish land of "counts-as" and logical inconsistencies (i.e. cult terminators).

It's the same as saying "Oh, well they stopped supporting CSM, so I'll just play counts-as Space Marines."

I mean, they're still power armored superhumans, who cares if it's more generic?


Now THAT puts it in perspective for me. I still don't think the new codex deserves most of the dirt thrown on it, but I can definately see where you guys are coming from now.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

DarkHound wrote:
Mad Rabbit wrote:
DarkHound wrote:Man, I'm tired of hearing "Deathguard don't exist anymore." That means that the Soul Drinkers, Emperor's Swords, Blood Ravens, various Tau Cepts, the main 'Nid hive fleets, Imperial Guard Tallarans, and every other force that is mentioned in the codex but not given a unit or list to represent them doesn't exist. So only armies with their own codicies or unit choices specific to them "exist?"


I think the point of that statement is that the army list you can use to represent that force in the fluff has been steadily moving to a more and more general list. Instead of lots of Nurgle-specific goodies, DG players are in a hellish land of "counts-as" and logical inconsistencies (i.e. cult terminators).

It's the same as saying "Oh, well they stopped supporting CSM, so I'll just play counts-as Space Marines."

I mean, they're still power armored superhumans, who cares if it's more generic?


Now THAT puts it in perspective for me. I still don't think the new codex deserves most of the dirt thrown on it, but I can definately see where you guys are coming from now.

Now,if we can just get GW to see that as well.


"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

I think it's pretty clear that every other legion has taken a back seat to the Black Legion in this codex. They even get a two page spread, while every other legion is mixed in with the terribly-named renegade chapters.

I would have liked GW to make a codex similar to the orks, or IG, or eldar. Sure they had problems, but they were built with more than one army build in mind, and that gives them a lot more versatility.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Pointing out that someone's opinion sucks isn't pressing one's own opinion on others. Likewise pointing out closed-mindedness (despite any obvious hypocrisy...) isn't a personal attack. It's basically just a rhetorical way to solicit validation from like-minded people for one's own opinion, and to invite criticism that might change one's own opinion.

If you're not willing to enter into a discussion open to the idea that your opinion may suck, then you're not open to discussion either since you're not inclined to critically engage with any replies you may solicit from dissenters to your opinion. Merely stating your opinion isn't discussion, it's bald assertion.

I mean, I really like Codex Chaos Space Marines. It got me back into the hobby when previous versions had, like Beefy, turned me off. Certainly I have a grocer's list of stuff I'd like to change about it, but I like it. However, sometimes I worry about having bad opinions or bad taste, and would really like for people who disagree with me to be able to persuade me otherwise if I am in the wrong. So I come here instead of being content with the limited perspective I have access to in my corner of the real world.

Having said that, I think that the arguments given for the ideas that the Codex does not allow themed armies, and that it contains broken units simply aren't persuasive. They aren't persuasive, to me (as any such judgments should be read as purely my opinion rather than statements of fact), because the book allowed me to make my themed World Eaters army, and my experiences with what are popularly considered "broken units" is so sharply divergent from popular opinion around here that I simply cannot conceive a charitable reason why they would be considered so.

I mean, I certainly find it interesting that we disagree so fundamentally, and I'm really interested in discussing it just in case you're right and I'm wrong (or I'm right and you're wrong, or we're both wrong), but you declaring that "There is no picking my brain out of this" kind of shuts down the possibility of doing so.

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but we can enjoy our own opinions in the privacy of our own homes. Giving your opinion in a public forum, on the other hand, is about persuasion, and trying to persuade you of our ideas is not pressing them upon. You will not be kicked off the forum for disagreeing with people (well, maybe if those people are mods/admin), you will not have to write an exam, you will not even be required to be convert. Some wise bugger once said that it was the mark an intelligent person that they could entertain an idea without taking it home...

I could be wrong, for example, that the new book doesn't really allow me to theme my army. More accurately, I think, it doesn't allows you to employ rules that match the them of your army, and allows me to employ rules that match the theme of my army. It's too bad you lose out, but I'm not inclined to complain because I get my theme army at long last.

I could be wrong about the Lash Spam army units being broken. Lord knows I'm in a very small minority around here about that. But since argumentum ad populum is a fallacy in cases such as these, the jury is still out and I continue to press my case in the 40k Tactics forum (and am somewhat comforted to see the tide of opinion apparently turn me way, or at least the way I was turning several months ago, which is kind of weird). But I've been experimenting with the Chaos Codex since it came out (Thank God for people willing to play with proxies), and doing so from the starting point of assuming that each unit in Warhammer is viable given the right context until overwhelming evidence shows otherwise. I think this is approach is both more effective at developing solutions to tactical problems in 40k, and more fun because it doesn't lead to the monotony of only a few (or one...) army being considered competitive. I think that the opinion that the Lash Spam is the only competitive option, and that the Lash Spam units are broken, is the result of several factors, including:

-a slow transition to 5th edition, legacy meta-gaming from the 4th edition distorts the playing field so that people field armies that are vulnerable to Lash Spam, and play those armies in a very 4th edition way (even Stelek has caught onto this...)

-The combination of Internet Group-Think and Listhammer Players ("Timmies") - Basically Little Timmy sucks at Warhammer 40k, and since Little Timmy knows that he is the next Einstein, the problem must be with his list. Which is cool, because everyone on the Internet agrees with Timmy, and their combined genius has allowed them to determine the Winning List, the grail of Listhammer players everywhere that will allow each and every one of them to win the next Grand Tournament if their dice don't let them down. Little Timmy plays his friends down at the local GW, who fortunately also suck, and wins. The list is validated, Timmies' friends copy him, and the cycle continues. Older players mutter about Rock-Scissors-Paper, and go back to painting those Praetorians they bought back in the '90s, and who they can't field anymore because bayonets no longer give +1S, +1I, and +1A (they never did, points to the person who names the White Dwarf this suggestion was printed in).

-The attitude that because GW sucks at balancing units (everyone on the internet talks about how GW can't balance its units, after all), some units must be better than others, and it's a simple matter to determine which those units are because, after all, it's obvious that some units suck. What, you don't think they suck? What are you, stupid? It's obvious. What? Well, of course I haven't tried them, they suck! Duh!
   
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+1 Nurglitch, if only for my army being based around Possessed and Daemons and killing everyone for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 04:40:44


   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

DarkHound wrote:+1 Nurglitch, if only for my army being based around Possessed and Daemons and killing everyone for it.

Thanks. It's nice not being the lone voice in the wilderness.
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

Nurglitch wrote:
Having said that, I think that the arguments given for the ideas that the Codex does not allow themed armies, and that it contains broken units simply aren't persuasive. They aren't persuasive, to me (as any such judgments should be read as purely my opinion rather than statements of fact), because the book allowed me to make my themed World Eaters army, and my experiences with what are popularly considered "broken units" is so sharply divergent from popular opinion around here that I simply cannot conceive a charitable reason why they would be considered so.


Your point on Listhammerers is an excellent one. I just wanted to respond to this section. I don't think that anyone says that themed armies are gone. Any codex can produce a themed army. The argument (and it's extremely hard to disagree with) is that themed armies have lost a lot of their flavor and options. With the disappearance of differences between Codex chapters and lack of Craftworld lists seems like a trend towards more generic army lists. The death of Chaos Legions continues this. (Although admittedly the Eldar codex does a very good job of reflecting the various craftworlds and Codex:SM has an attempt in the form of special characters). So it looks like Chaos is the one that really suffers from this.

Themed armies in Codex:CSM have lost flavor since the transition from Traitor Legions to Renegades (stupid Red Corsairs). If you disagree with this, look at the number of pages in the old book that were devoted to variant lists.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Well enjoy the wilderness, 'cause that's where you're staying along with your generic daemons and non-Cult other troops.

Skyth wrote:HBMC, Plague marines can take two specials regardless of squad size.


Cool, thanks. Wasn't 100% sure there.

And I had never thought about Nurgle Terminators running away, or the idea that a squad of Khornate Marines forgets who they worship because the Icon bearer buys it.

"Forward my bloody brothers! Forwards for the glory of KH..." -lascannon shot takes out the Icon- "... uhh... what was I saying?"
"Gul'dar the Crazed has fallen, and with him goes our icon!"
"Help us Slaanesh... wait... was it Slaanesh? Or Nurgle?"
"Blood for the Change Lord? No... that doesn't sound right."
"Couldn't we just pick up the icon he dropped."
"Yes! In the name of uhh... Gork... Khaine? Whoever, we shall pick up the Icon!"
*picks up Icon*
"Khorne!"
"Yes!"
"That was it! Khorne! Forwards for Khorne!"
*then the Chaos Marine squad fails a Morale Check and Falls Back in the name of Khorne while some real Berzerkers look on doing chainaxe facepalms*


Ok, for a second I want everyone to cast their minds back into the deep misty... uhh... depths of 3rd Ed. We had this Codex, a Chaos Codex - more of a pamphlet really - and it was written by trusty ol' Jervis "Jervis" Johnson, back before they realised that he was better off writing Blood Bowl than fething up 40K. Do you remember a couple of things from that:

1. Daemon Princes as a separate choice with few options.
2. Random Possessed.
3. No Cult troops beyond the basic squads.

The latter one, the lack of Cult Terminators, was actually addressed in Chapter Approved (remember Chapter Approved everyone?) where they were given rules.

Then Pete "Page 41" Haines came along, buffed his own personal army (Iron Warriors) and changed a few things:

1. Princehood was now an option for a Lord/Sorcerer, and they didn't lose all too many options by taking it.
2. Possessed were fixed to allow players to plan their use, rather than react to random rolls.
3. Marks were made consistent across the board, meaning that the general rules that applies to Nurgle Terminators were the same general rules that applied to Nurgle Bikers or Havocs or whatever (aside from specific unit options and differences).

And we had that.

Then Jervis comes back into a leading role within the 40K design team, we get Snore-Angels as his first effort (Dark Angel players across the land gnash their teeth and the lameness of their Codex and wonder why their Deathwing Armies can't be led by Chaplains or Librarians any more) and soon after Jervis comes back we get a new Chaos Codex that has:

1. Daemon Princes as a separate choice with few options.
2. Random Possessed.
3. No Cult troops beyond the basic squads.

Hmm... bit odd don't'cha think?

   
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Chicago

H.B.M.C. wrote:1. Daemon Princes as a separate choice with few options.
2. Random Possessed.
3. No Cult troops beyond the basic squads.

Hmm... bit odd don't'cha think?


I literally thought I had grabbed the wrong book the first time I flipped through the new one. I asked if this was a reprint of the old one and the red shirt assured me that oh no, it was the new and improved one.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Mad Rabbit:

It might be something to note that my army theme is my own, and would probably get me burned at the stake by the more fanatical fluff-gurus: a shooting-based post-heresy battalion of the World Eaters. I could care less about a lack of background material rehashing the 2nd edition background (and the Index Astartes background, and the previous edition background, etc) because I don't really like the 40k background as it has been developed, so a 'generic' list really works for me as a blank canvas that I can paint with my own imagination without all the hassle of fluff-zealots telling me that I can't have Khornate Sorcerers, all World Eaters are Berzerker-cultists (my World Eaters are Destroyer-cultists), and so on.

So I could agree that the match between the theme of your army and the rules representing it has loosened, that the loosening meant less flavour, less of your army acting like you imagine it should given its most recent background material.

But I won't because it has simply changed flavour to one that I like and you don't, from one that I didn't like and you did. My World Eaters aren't dead, and now I don't have to read about the goons that stole their identity being the new gospel.

What I liked best about 40k back in Rogue Trader days was that the background was, at best, a framework in which to tell your own stories; perhaps a result of its roleplay-oriented format. The development of a specific set of stories, facts, figures, and events forming an official Warhammer 40k background ain't my cup of tea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually I really like Jervis Johnson's design ethic (I once had the privilege of chatting about it over a few drinks during a Canadian Grand Tournament around 2001), I like his work on Blood Bowl, I like his work on Epic 40k & Epic Armageddon, and I'm glad he's turned that over to Warhammer 40,000. The only thing I'm disappointed by is that he's hamstrung by certain 40k legacy rules, and wish I could see what he could do in a Starship Troopers-style situation like Andy Chambers did.

It's certainly a relief from Pete Haines' Codex where Daemon Princes had options, but you were stupid unless you took the right ones (yes, I think there were broken units in 4th edition). Ditto for the Possessed: you had options, but only one set was live. And your Legion was your rules, which sucked for reasons I have already elaborated on.

Of course, the real problem is that Jervis is holding a gun to your head, and if you don't use the latest Codex: Chaos Space Marines exactly as it is printed, he will pull that trigger. Then he's going to hunt down your whole family. And eat them. He's that kind of ogre.

I may be imagining things, as I do tend to have an over-active imagination, but I recall H.B.M.C mentioning somewhere that he didn't play Warhammer 40k any more and that he and his group had decided to stick with their own rules which they had hammered out and tested, and which were putatively better than the Studio version. Which, whether I'm imagining this or not, would be pretty cool because I did something similar around the middle of 4th edition.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you don't like the current Codex, don't use it. Use the previous one. The only thing stopping you is your impending gory death at the hands of the unstoppable killing machine that is Jervis Johnson...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 05:26:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Nurglitch wrote:What I liked best about 40k back in Rogue Trader days was that the background was, at best, a framework in which to tell your own stories;

Actually I really like Jervis Johnson's design ethic

Agreed on both points. Tho, admitting the second is likely to get you burned at the stake around here...

   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

Nurglitch wrote:It might be something to note that my army theme is my own, and would probably get me burned at the stake by the more fanatical fluff-gurus: a shooting-based post-heresy battalion of the World Eaters.
So you like the new codex in a large part because you play a shooting-based Khorne army?

I can definitely see how the old codex would screw with that concept. That doesn't mean much to all of the players who've found themselves with a crippled army concept thanks to the new codex, though.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
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Manhunter




Eastern PA

DarkHound wrote:

ANYWAY, I'm still not getting that the lack of offical title makes them not Deathguard. As far as lists were concerned, weren't Deathguard just Plague Marines being led by Nurgle marked HQs, Termies, etc. anyway?


yes, but in the old book those lords and termies had the same stats and rules as the plague marines.

old codex plague marines granted T4(5), same to termies, lords, whatever.

new codex plague marines get T4(5), FNP and blight grenades, lords get T4(5) but no FNP and blight grenades, same with DP's, termies and everything else we used to run.

we have generic lords and icon termies leading true plague marines.

this is my gripe.

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well enjoy the wilderness, 'cause that's where you're staying along with your generic daemons and non-Cult other troops.


Exactly. This codex would only be minimally sucktacular if they had a pending LEGIONS codex, but clearly that wasn't the idea. they just ed it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 12:50:35


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Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:It might be something to note that my army theme is my own, and would probably get me burned at the stake by the more fanatical fluff-gurus: a shooting-based post-heresy battalion of the World Eaters.
So you like the new codex in a large part because you play a shooting-based Khorne army?

I can definitely see how the old codex would screw with that concept. That doesn't mean much to all of the players who've found themselves with a crippled army concept thanks to the new codex, though.

Yeah, I do like the Codex in large part because I play a shooting-based Khorne army, and the previous Codex didn't allow that theme without some serious 'counts-as'. But, as I pointed out, that just means that my army concept was crippled thanks to the old codex, and now it isn't. I don't see why my army concept is any less valid than those players whose them the previous codex enabled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
studderingdave:

Typhus is the Death Guard Lord unit. He has the Toughness Bonus, Feel No Pain, and Blight Grenades.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 14:47:00


 
   
Made in de
You Sunk My Battleship!





Nurglitch wrote:What I liked best about 40k back in Rogue Trader days was that the background was, at best, a framework in which to tell your own stories; perhaps a result of its roleplay-oriented format. The development of a specific set of stories, facts, figures, and events forming an official Warhammer 40k background ain't my cup of tea.
Nurglitch wrote:Actually I'd suggest that making something so open-ended requires much more imagination than reprinting or re-writing the Index Astartes articles, themselves usually below pulp quality writing. I think it's just me, but GW's background is best when presented in random quotes, snippets, and flavour pieces, rather than any attempt at actual substantive writing; they're simply not good enough writers to make it worth reading, and the material itself is simply too 2-dimensional.
The current codex presents the background in a much more explicit and definite way than the previous one. Pretty much all the fluff is told from the perspective of an omniscient narrator, including the elaborate unit entries and the recount of the HH. It even delves into the psyche of Traitor Marines.
3rd edition was where the fluff was presented in an ambiguous manner. Especially early on.

Nurglitch wrote:Word to that. I remember when it was first declared that all World Eaters were Berzerkers... Now I can have my World Eaters with heavy weapons. I like it.

Maybe GW should put a warning on the Codex: "Some Imagination Required"
I take it you had the imagination to use the vanilla list of the old Codex.

DarkHound wrote:But they CAN exist in the game. You MAKE them exist in the game by playing your army. The story isn't in the list! It isn't in the codex! It never has been! It is in the models! The holy trinity of tabletops, modeling, story and gaming. Modelling tells a story, while gaming progresses that story through the models.
Well, to me rules are as much part of an army as the fluff or the models. One part doesn't become a substitute for the other if it is toned done.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Nurglitch wrote:It's certainly a relief from Pete Haines' Codex where Daemon Princes had options, but you were stupid unless you took the right ones (yes, I think there were broken units in 4th edition). Ditto for the Possessed: you had options, but only one set was live. And your Legion was your rules, which sucked for reasons I have already elaborated on.


That's a problem right there. HMBC, you should be very familiar with this because of the old Guard. Wasn't there pretty much only one set of Doctrines had to take? More options doesn't mean better. More options means there is more crap you have to sift through. This codex is skimmed down to basically only the useful stuff. I mean, my force is built on top of everything that is supposed to be the worst stuff in the codex (Possessed, Lessers, a Defiler), and I'm killing everyone right now. This means either they all suck all the time or the bad stuff in the codex isn't bad, and that comparing units in a void really doesn't work. I predict a renaissance for this codex once the internet people figure out Fzorgle is starting to lag behind and that there are things that are better in the Mech age.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Digganob wrote:
DarkHound wrote:But they CAN exist in the game. You MAKE them exist in the game by playing your army. The story isn't in the list! It isn't in the codex! It never has been! It is in the models! The holy trinity of tabletops, modeling, story and gaming. Modelling tells a story, while gaming progresses that story through the models.
Well, to me rules are as much part of an army as the fluff or the models. One part doesn't become a substitute for the other if it is toned done.


Ah, but this is the age of count-as according to GW. It goes hand in hand with this no restriction codex, and I guess if you don't like count-as the codex is going to hurt.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/09 15:14:23


   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander





Halifax

Digganob:

Yes, the new Codex does abandon the diagetic perspective of previous editions, but it also abandons the habit of recounting the campaign history of the Legions in favour of what seems to me to be a more general approach. I like the bit about the psyche of the Traiter Marines especially because it fits well with the 'alternate history 40k universe' of my army's background. These are nice structural cut-to-fit narrative rules that help me write 40k-flavoured background for my army, rather than have the details filled in for me.

Which brings me back to the complaint that Chaos Space Marines are just Marines without And They Shall Know No Fear, which is usually dismissed as making them generic, but I think it constitutes the important difference between Loyalists and Traitors: the Loyalist know no fear because they put the needs of the many before the needs of the few and themselves. That means they have fantastic unit cohesion, each member trusting each other to do the appropriate thing, to hold the breach while the rest conduct a firing retreat (okay, add Combat Tactics here as well), to conduct heroic Forlorn Hopes, and to general be heroic. The Traitors have turned inward, selfishly putting themselves and their own interests first. This rediscovery of a desire for self-preservation endangers them as a group and that destroys their unit cohesion. They now know fear because not only is staying alive (and, indeed, gaining immortality as a Daemon Prince) at the cost of others their first priority, but their allies are selfish back-stabbing madmen. So long as things are going well, they're confident and efficient, but when the going gets tough and the tide turns, then panic sets in where previously death was no biggie. The Cult Marines, by comparison, went over the edge long ago and none have any reason to fear their own death. So it makes sense to me that Chaos Lord are both not usually members of the cults, having retained some semblance of sanity and self-interest, and Fearless because you don't get to be a Chaos Lord without having the testicular fortitude to literally enter Hell. The Sorcerers, on the other hand, being psychic and reasonably clued into the real nature of the universe, are well aware of the consequences of their own mortality and hence are not Fearless.

Actually I had the imagination to twist the old Codex to my own purposes, but to be honest resolving the conflict between the WYSIWYG (Khorne Marines) and the Count-As (symbols of other Gods being Marks of the Destroyer Cult, as opposed to the Berzerker Cult) get pretty tiresome.
   
 
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