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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






No seriously, you have been acting very poorly, HB. How about you just calm down and step away from the internet.

How about some nice topical cream, mmm, yes? Some topi-some topical cream.

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Made in us
Uhlan





Michigan

I think what John is trying to say is that you can work the list given to you in the current codex however you want - there just won't be rules behind it. In essence, you're only limiting yourselves. He feels (or I think he does) that you haven't lost anything that matters in the old codex (codices?) via the same argument many are making against the current one - the material not present now that was present in the past was either too weak to appear in lists, or too overpowered to be in anybody's lists.

I think what it boils down to is this: there are people like me (and I am assuming John) that don't mind modelling our armies to represent our favored faction, chapter, tribe or whatever. Then there are people that want the rules to back up their respective preferences. Both groups find validation via different means, and I don't think one is necessarily better than the other.
   
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Orkeosaurus wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?
You should have seen the sixty I converted for my Alpha Legion.


I 'only' had 40 converted cultists myself, but yeah...
   
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A garden grove on Citadel Station

The new codex gave me the "freedom" to stop playing chaos space marines.

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Halifax

Alpharius wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?
You should have seen the sixty I converted for my Alpha Legion.


I 'only' had 40 converted cultists myself, but yeah...

Sounds like a great basis for a Renegade Guard army.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Alpharius wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?
You should have seen the sixty I converted for my Alpha Legion.


I 'only' had 40 converted cultists myself, but yeah...

Too bad I didn't get a chance to play you, instead of some guy fielding quad Heavy IW...

   
Made in us
Manhunter




Eastern PA

JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?

And the angst over MoN Lord & Termies backed by PM to represent DG? Wow.


i really dont appreciate being lumped in with what you saw in your experience. goes to show what kind of players you dealt with. we had an alpha legion guy at our LGS that was crushed when the new book came out, as well as an iron warriors guy that lost his basalisk. im not saying IW should have had them from the get go, but this was around the time that the top dogs at GW said that new codexes wouldnt invalidate models.

and wow, the idea of my PM's being lead by non PM lords and termies? yes it does bother me, and it is very valid as an argument from both a fluff and gameplay perspective.

im glad there are so many oh this thread that actually stand up for the old codex. it was honestly one of the most flavorful books ive had the pleasure of playing with.


There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

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Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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RxGhost wrote:No seriously, you have been acting very poorly, HB.


Towards John, yes, 'because [omitted] need to be pointed out to everyone for the [omitted] that they are.

RxGhost wrote:How about some nice topical cream, mmm, yes? Some topi-some topical cream.


They don't make anti-rage cream. Duh.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
studderingdave wrote:im glad there are so many oh this thread that actually stand up for the old codex. it was honestly one of the most flavorful books ive had the pleasure of playing with.


Which is why I find those who rail against it in favour of the new one so perplexing, especially those that claim that the new one is less restricting and offers more choice.

Oh, and for the record, he still hasn't answered the question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 01:18:31


   
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Dakka Veteran






Actually they do.

Ice Cream.

Go one, have some...come to the delicious side of life.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

studderingdave wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?

And the angst over MoN Lord & Termies backed by PM to represent DG? Wow.

i really dont appreciate being lumped in with what you saw in your experience. goes to show what kind of players you dealt with.

and wow, the idea of my PM's being lead by non PM lords and termies? yes it does bother me,

im glad there are so many oh this thread that actually stand up for the old codex. it was honestly one of the most flavorful books ive had the pleasure of playing with.

I'm sorry if you took it that way. It's part of the reason I just don't do tournaments anymore.

While I understand you don't like not having Cult Termies (which I don't recall actually being in the CSM Codex), what I don't understand is how MoN Lord doesn't work. That's just wierd.

I was a lot happier playing under the original 3E Codex, and was pretty pissed when the update came out.

   
Made in us
Uhlan





Michigan

RxGhost wrote:Actually they do.

Ice Cream.

Go one, have some...come to the delicious side of life.


Ice cream is nigh irresistible.

It's something that needs no codex, no lists, and no rules to enjoy.
   
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Parachuting Para-Commando




San Bruno, CA

Most players seem upset by three things: loss of wargear, loss of god specific demons, and loss of mono-god armies.

Everyone lost wargear, so I agree it is a fairly moot point.

Demons are getting separated period, it is time to just realize that that is the way GW is taking things: no more multi-book allied forces outside Apoc and the like.

The loss of mono-god armies I find kind of pathetic. Simply because the book does not force a player to take a Nurgle lord for a DG army doesn't mean you cannot do it. Sure the powergamers are gonna abuse it but it doesn't mean you can't keep your mono-god armies going.
   
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Georgia,just outside Atlanta

This again?,ok,IMO the "not even as chaotic as a 90 year old nun"codex basicly sucked the fun and flavor right out of CSMs,bland boring generic daemons,no real cult armies,just an overall lack of variety...it may well be the worst codex GW has published.


"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

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Uhlan





Michigan

FITZZ wrote: This again?,ok,IMO the "not even as chaotic as a 90 year old nun"codex basicly sucked the fun and flavor right out of CSMs,bland boring generic daemons,no real cult armies,just an overall lack of variety...it may well be the worst codex GW has published.


I dunno about that...have you read the Dark Eldar codex?
   
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Dendarien wrote:Demons are getting separated period, it is time to just realize that that is the way GW is taking things: no more multi-book allied forces outside Apoc and the like.


That's an odd way of looking at it. Daemons weren't an 'allied' part of Chaos in the previous Codex... or any Codex prior to the current one actually. They were simply part of the Chaos list. It's only recently that the distinction was made. Actually, when you look at it, Daemons are still part of the Chaos list, they're just generic... for no actual reason.

Why remove Daemons from the Codex and replace them with pathetic generic nonsense aside from wanting to sell new model kits/a new army?

   
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Chicago

StormHalo wrote:
FITZZ wrote: This again?,ok,IMO the "not even as chaotic as a 90 year old nun"codex basicly sucked the fun and flavor right out of CSMs,bland boring generic daemons,no real cult armies,just an overall lack of variety...it may well be the worst codex GW has published.


I dunno about that...have you read the Dark Eldar codex?


Eh but how much do they really care at this point? We USED to have a great codex, then they took it away and gave us a kick in the balls instead.

Dark Eldar players have been locked in that dark basement corner for 10 years. They're used to it by now.

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Georgia,just outside Atlanta

StormHalo wrote:
FITZZ wrote: This again?,ok,IMO the "not even as chaotic as a 90 year old nun"codex basicly sucked the fun and flavor right out of CSMs,bland boring generic daemons,no real cult armies,just an overall lack of variety...it may well be the worst codex GW has published.


I dunno about that...have you read the Dark Eldar codex?

Actualy I have it was the first codex I ever bought,and ..um point taken,I will now rephrase my previous statement to "one of the worst codex GW has ever published".


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Michigan

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why remove Daemons from the Codex and replace them with pathetic generic nonsense aside from wanting to sell new model kits/a new army?


I think what GW was trying to do was, 1) make more money by doing just what you suggest, sell two armies and justify a host of new models and, 2) focus more on the daemons and their machinations, goals, factions, etc. by giving them their own codex and thus, narrowing the scope on the chaos space marines in theirs.

I don't mind the daemons being of a generic variety in the CSM codex - it keeps the attention on the summoners rather than the summonees (is that a word?). The generic daemons are fodder for the CSM while the daemons in the Chaos Daemons codex are the real deal - the elites, the bad mofos, the personal representatives of their respective gods outside of the warp.

In my opinion, it's a fluff thing.
   
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You see Sto*munch*Halo, that might be the problem...hold on, I've got ice cream on me...that's better, I don't know if you meant this or if it just sparked me to think it.

Behind every shout of "now this is bland and generic and fluffless" I still hear a voice shouting, so high pitched that the untrained cannot hear, and that voice is shouting "these aren't as strong as they were".

Demons are still in the book right? Right. Why doesn't anyone use them? Because people think they're weak. They don't have the special rules that they used to/the other army gets/insert other complaint.

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Manhunter




Eastern PA

JohnHwangDD wrote:While I understand you don't like not having Cult Termies (which I don't recall actually being in the CSM Codex), what I don't understand is how MoN Lord doesn't work. That's just wierd.


my basis here is that MoN for plague marines carries blight grenades, FnP and the IN penalty. for sake of completeness i would like this for all models bearing the mark.

i cannot recall how many times my OP opened fire on my termies expecting them to have FnP and i just say Nope they dont get that, it even confuses my opponents. i know FNP termies and DP's sounds crazy, i would gladly pay double the points now to mark my termies, lords and DP's properly, even more if i had too.

hell, if they took away FNP from plague marines i would feel better, knowing MoN and plague marines are uniform across the board.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/07/08 01:55:49


There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

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Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I thought this was GW getting away from "every MoN is a PM" and just like every "DG is a PM"

   
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Manhunter




Eastern PA

they could go in whatever direction they want, im just saying this is why i am pissed about the new book.

i know i shouldnt bring logic into it, but all my deathguard start as plague marines, senior plague marines get termie armor, the most agressive aspire to be lord, or even DP's. i dont see where FNP falls to the wayside once they leave PM status.

i hope in the legions codex(es) they tie it back together for the legions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 02:11:04


There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





Georgia,just outside Atlanta

studderingdave wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:While I understand you don't like not having Cult Termies (which I don't recall actually being in the CSM Codex), what I don't understand is how MoN Lord doesn't work. That's just wierd.


my basis here is that MoN for plague marines carries blight grenades, FnP and the IN penalty. for sake of completeness i would like this for all models bearing the mark.

i cannot recall how many times my OP opened fire on my termies expecting them to have FnP and i just say Nope they dont get that, it even confuses my opponents. i know FNP termies and DP's sounds crazy, i would gladly pay double the points now to mark my termies, lords and DP's properly, even more if i had too.

hell, if they took away FNP from plague marines i would feel better, knowing MoN and plague marines are uniform across the board.

Agreed,as of now you can have termies with MON increasing their toughness,no FNP,how is this reflective of an veteran PM who has acquired terminator armour?


"I'll tell you one thing that every good soldier knows! The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!" .-Ursus.

I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
<small>Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.</small>

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Manhunter




Eastern PA

FITZZ wrote: Agreed,as of now you can have termies with MON increasing their toughness,no FNP,how is this reflective of an veteran PM who has acquired terminator armour?


word. this is my main argument.

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

I think attempting to make two different tiers of worship for one god (Mark of Khorne -> Berserker, Mark of Nurgle -> Plague Marine) was a bad idea. Especially since it's woefully incomplete, and there's nothing for daemons.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
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StormHalo wrote:I don't mind the daemons being of a generic variety in the CSM codex


You are the first and only person I have ever said that.

And my Word Bearer army hates you.

   
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Reverent Tech-Adept





The World of Cheese and Snack foods

I dot own it but my gaming pal does and i see it often but i cant seem to find out why its just so darn confusing, and seems like a messed up version of the current codex's. Maybe it just me but i cant ever get used to the book. Its rules i find acceptable but as i said the concept of the book and its format oddly confuses me. But rules wise it just like any other codex its never balanced units like the noise marines are barely ever used with a tournament in mind while units like DP are basically mandatory in larger games. Oh and i also hate the terminators and all their confusing options i cant ever make up my mind in fun games and sometimes tournaments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 03:58:48


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I wrote up this long thing expressing my views on this new codex that got me brownie points. I think it's appropriet here, but as you can see my spelling is deteriorating rapidly do to lack of sleep. So I'll just quote myself. Goodnight, see you in the morning.

DarkHound wrote:To say that fluff has entirely disappeared from Chaos, and 5th Edition to a greater extent, is beyond reason. I take offense when I hear the Deathguard (for example) don't exist because there are not rules for them. The fluff exists, and the tools to build a Deathguard army exist. I think this codex has opened up to a more 'build your own renegades' approach. Yes, we lost options in this codex, but we gained more creative freedom. Complaining about powergamers abusing that is as old as time, ironically enough. You make a new way to smelt iron to build a stronger plow, but someone uses it for a sword to kill that farmer. I can still make an army of stoic marines, marching across the battlefield shrugging off incoming rounds and returning them two-fold, as the sun sets on the battle. As far as it will ever matter, they are the Deathguard. It comes down to how you build and paint your models, which is the soul of the hobby. That is what determines what your army is, as much as any rule.

I see this is as an age of freedom of design, where count-as rule rules. The rules dictating what a unit is, are less concrete now. The entry for Thousand Sons is less about the actual Ahriman's Rubric Marines and more a ruleset for a unit, if you can graft it into your force. An Aspiring Nurgle Sorcerer obsessed with creating a new form of life sustaining spell spell for his warriors, loses control and looses a virus on his bodyguard, reducing them to mindless zombies in their armor. All the modelling required here is a Sorcerer baring Nurgle Icons and some CSM with boils, blown off limbs and a rather slouched stance. The modelling is used to show the story, without you having to say a word. A Slaaneshi Sorcerer uses a surgeon to tamper with his soldiers, resulting in monsters obsessed with cutting opponents in the most brutal fashions imaginable. Slaaneshi Sorcerer leading a unit with the Khorne Berserkers rules. With proper modelling this shouldn't feel unnatural to all but the most devoute followers of the text. Thinking inside the box of what things are is what restricts Chaos players for the most part and at the moment. There are even examples of how units of Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines have come to be in other ways in the Codex. The fluff is alive and well, to me atleast, and you can utilise it without restriction with a silver tongue, a keen eye and a pack of green stuff.

There are players who won't make the effort in modelling or story telling to explain how this army came to be. I do truly feel sorry for them, as that is one of the most rewarding aspects of this game. To watch as your battles contribute to the story of this grim future is the most satisfying aspect of the hobby.

   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I think this codex has opened up to a more 'build your own renegades' approach.


Except it hasn't.

The standard list, ignoring the 8 Legions, allowed for what we have already today, plus it still had Daemons, plus it still have universally consistent Marked troops, more options and so on. The new 'Codex' didn't add anything, it just took things away. 'Counts As' isn't an excuse for the fact that there is no such thing as a Death Guard, World Eater, Alpha Legion, etc. army. What there is is a singular list where once there was many, a single list with far fewer options than the previous list, and a bunch of armies pretending to be something they're not.

There are no Cult Commanders or Cult Possessed or Cult Terminators, Havocs, Bikers and so on - just a single unit that is supposed to represent all the Cult troops (so all Plague Marines wear Power Armour? There are no Noise Marine Bikers? No World Eater Possessed?), there are no more Daemonic Gifts (something I find abhorrent, given that they have been a stable of Chaos since the beginning - Realms of Chaos had a D1000 table for these things), and there are Generic Daemons (something that is just insulting to Chaos players).

The old Codex had a list that was amazingly adaptive and flexible, capable of representing just about any force you could think of. The new Codex has the same list with the options, flexibility and flavour removed. It wasn't an improvement, it was a giant leap backwards.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 04:49:18


   
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Richmond, VA

My biggest gripe with the current 'dex is the genericised daemons. I want bloodletters or horrors or plaguebearers in my CSM armies, just like they had since I started playing back in 1993 there was no good reason to genericise them.

And where are my proper Thousand Son terminators? Termies with Mark of Tzeentch aren't quite the same thing.

 
   
 
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