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Decrepit Dakkanaut






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Yup. So, given that it's all arbitrary, why shouldn't I have the freedom to make my own?

   
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JohnHwangDD wrote:Nah.

More like my image wasn't to be shoehorned into somebody else's arbitrary army concept and restrictions.

Especially as the Legion lists and rules were pulled out of thin air. It's not like there was any precedent for any of them in the previous Codices.

You see, back when I first got into Chaos, you had to use imagination to make up an army.


Your statement does not square with the actual codex JH. We all have visions of our army. The new codex specifically forces that vision down a narrow permit or eliminates it entirely. Please define how less choice equals more, as it lacks a reasonable basis absent some other factor I am not aware of.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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dietrich wrote:The CSM codex is like the tinman in Wizard of Oz. It has no heart. It just doesn't inspire you, unlike previous versions of the book. You can build an army out of it, and there's at least one effective build from it. But, it just doesn't invoke the same awe and wonder, unlike the Second Edition CSM and the 3.5 CSM codex did. GW can never get Chaos right. It's either bland and nothing or overpowered cheese.


The old LatD list should have showed them the way. Do you want to go CSM-heavy with some traitor IG and chaos spawn? No problem. Want to field loads of mutants backed by daemons? Can do. Want a traitor IG army with Russes and Basilisks led by a Daemon Prince and a small cadre of cult CSMs? Fine. And ironically it was, despite its mix of unique choices and units coming in from various codices, more balanced than the v3.5 CSM book on its own.

To me, the issue isn't exactly that the current book has fewer wargear items or that Legion lists are gone. If they had removed those but given players more diversity in their army builds, I think the new book would have been received better. As it is now, I think army build decisions happen at a more granular level ("Do you want to field Bezerkers or Plague Marines in your transports alongside your near-mandatory oblits and lashers?") than they did with the v3.5 book or the LatD list. And I think that's what some people find less-than-inspiring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 20:02:27


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JohnHwangDD wrote:Nah.

More like my image wasn't to be shoehorned into somebody else's arbitrary army concept and restrictions.

Especially as the Legion lists and rules were pulled out of thin air. It's not like there was any precedent for any of them in the previous Codices.

You see, back when I first got into Chaos, you had to use imagination to make up an army.

Word to that. I remember when it was first declared that all World Eaters were Berzerkers... Now I can have my World Eaters with heavy weapons. I like it.

Maybe GW should put a warning on the Codex: "Some Imagination Required"
   
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Nurglitch wrote:Maybe GW should put a warning on the Codex: "Some Imagination Required"


I agree, it should. Because not much made it in from the design team, which is unusual IMO.

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Frazzled wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Nah.

More like my image wasn't to be shoehorned into somebody else's arbitrary army concept and restrictions.

Especially as the Legion lists and rules were pulled out of thin air. It's not like there was any precedent for any of them in the previous Codices.

You see, back when I first got into Chaos, you had to use imagination to make up an army.


Your statement does not square with the actual codex JH. We all have visions of our army. The new codex specifically forces that vision down a narrow permit or eliminates it entirely. Please define how less choice equals more, as it lacks a reasonable basis absent some other factor I am not aware of.

"less choice"?

What are you talking about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Nah.

More like my image wasn't to be shoehorned into somebody else's arbitrary army concept and restrictions.

Especially as the Legion lists and rules were pulled out of thin air. It's not like there was any precedent for any of them in the previous Codices.

You see, back when I first got into Chaos, you had to use imagination to make up an army.

Word to that. I remember when it was first declared that all World Eaters were Berzerkers... Now I can have my World Eaters with heavy weapons. I like it.

Maybe GW should put a warning on the Codex: "Some Imagination Required"

Old school alert! Old school alert!

Somebody remembers when Khorne was perfectly happy to field Havocs!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 20:09:17


   
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There is less choice in options in the new codex vs. the old codex. That simply cannot be disputed.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Actually I'd suggest that making something so open-ended requires much more imagination than reprinting or re-writing the Index Astartes articles, themselves usually below pulp quality writing. I think it's just me, but GW's background is best when presented in random quotes, snippets, and flavour pieces, rather than any attempt at actual substantive writing; they're simply not good enough writers to make it worth reading, and the material itself is simply too 2-dimensional. I much prefer to write my own. I think it's like Star Wars: the original movies are fun, but the Extended Universe turns Star Wars into a phone book.
   
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Oh, you're talking about how everybody lost Wargear?

Meh. Hardly worth caring about.

   
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The fact remains, whether in YOUR OPINION it was hardly worth caring about, options have been limited.
You're attempting to put your view of a list and options upon those disagreeing with you JH. This flies directly in the face of your argument, which is that one everyone is actually agreed on, that codexes should permit players to create their own image, their bit of list art. The old codex was especially good at that. The new codex, by its fundamental design, does not. Less options means less of "the vision thing."

Its really what you're arguing-less options equals more choice. Under that construct a dex with only a tac squad option with one missile launcher/plasma and nothing else, would be the ultimate codex.

Your inherent desire of "making a codex" your own is the same as the chaos players you are disagreeing with. They had images, and recognize the greater absolute variety of options available under the old codex to make that vision closer to reality. While you may disagree with the options, you cannot invalidate their vision by one off statements. Come on JH I expect a more reasoned argument from you.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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gorgon wrote:The old LatD list should have showed them the way. Do you want to go CSM-heavy with some traitor IG and chaos spawn? No problem. Want to field loads of mutants backed by daemons? Can do. Want a traitor IG army with Russes and Basilisks led by a Daemon Prince and a small cadre of cult CSMs? Fine. And ironically it was, despite its mix of unique choices and units coming in from various codices, more balanced than the v3.5 CSM book on its own.

I don't have a problem with GW segmenting Chaos like they have the Imperial armies. Allies, if done well, are fine. GW hasn't traditionally done them well though. My vision of the Chaos forces is more like:

Daemons (done)
Recently renegade marines (use Codex: SM)
Vanilla Chaos Marines (use Codex: CSM)
Traitor Legions (needs done)
Traitor IG (use Codex: IG)
Lost and the Damned (needs redone, untrained mobs of zealots and mutants)

So, to me, 4 of the 6 are done (or done enough to 'count as'). There's a big whole in the 40k universe that there isn't a Lost and the Damned and/or Genestealer Cult army. Both are based around big mobs of untrained civilians, backed up with either big stompy things (mutants or warriors) and/or fast killy things (mutants or genestealers). I don't even care if my Lost and the Damned can have a unit of allied Alpha Legion or Word Bearers. But, IG is not Lost and the Damned, they can pull off Tratior Guard, but that is it.

The army list for the CSM codex is fine. It's there, you can field a decent army out of it. But, it just doesn't seem to have the same sense of excitement that previous incarnations of the codex have had.

Further, I hate when GW invalidates models, never mind a whole army. I can accept swapping flamers for meltaguns, or plasma pistols for bolt pistols, but losing a whole squad because there's no longer Noise Marine havoc squads with 4 blast masters, etc. just isn't right.

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Frazzled wrote:There is less choice in options in the new codex vs. the old codex. That simply cannot be disputed.

Certainly it can. There's a difference between the totality of options, and the number of live options. Live options are the options that a person can realistically take and that make a difference. A rainbow of Model T Fords gives you a live option of one car (so long as it's black...). The previous Chaos Codex gave a wider range of total options, most of which were either pointless, frivolous, or restrictive or other options; really the natural result of squishing all the Index Astartes articles together in one document.

The new Codex ditches all the decorative and pointless choices like "Spiky Bits", the various mutations, and pointless Daemon Prince stuff, and replaces it with a range of relevant options. If there's a tragedy it's that GW players tend to be lemmings when it comes to Internet Listhammer, so a handful of "Competitive Builds" were replaced by Dual Lash Princes when the Codex itself provided a greater range of live options for players to build lists. Partly this is due to prevailing conditions, where the Internet lists of the previous edition proved stupidly vulnerable to Lash Princes, but mostly it's due to the players, the ones who aren't willing to risk learning about the new options available. I suppose we're fortunate that, with time, boredom will eventually encourage a greater variety of armies to flourish.

I've noticed that since the Chaos Space Marine Codex has come out that people are gradually discovering the previously ignored strengths of the Codex, discovering the utility of Chaos Dreadnoughts (here's a hint, don't stick them beside units they can hurt!), Possessed, Havocs, and basically all the units beyond Daemon Princes, Obliterators, and Plague Marines (all Plasma Bait).
   
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Frazzled wrote:The fact remains, whether in YOUR OPINION it was hardly worth caring about, options have been limited.

codexes should permit players to create their own image, their bit of list art. The old codex was especially good at that.

Everybody lost wargear, not just CSM, so it's not something to care about. Now, if CSM were singled out this way, there would be a leg to stand on, but that's not the case. Similarly, everybody lost variant lists (i.e. Traits, Doctrines, Craftworlds), not just CSM, so again, it's not a real complaint that I would recognize.

What matters is what you can do with the CSM list in terms theme and design. And the current one does a lot more than the old one. Mixed Marks and Cult troops immediately come to mind as a major change. More balanced FOC offerings as well. Much tighter balance between all units.

For example, someone was complaining that they couldn't field his Daemonettes, but what he was *really* complaining about was that his perviously-uber (and better than CSM) Daemonettes were nerfed down to non-Rending standard Daemons that CSM were better than. Similarly, Havocs "losing" Cult weapon options, despite those models being fieldable as regular NM, is easily made up by their sheer versatility with regular Special and Heavy weapons. Same with the Word Bearer not having the imagination to count a MoTz Lord as a Dark Apostle.

In lieu of 8 straitjacketing "Legions" lists, CSM have a flexible list that lets one field 90+% of what was possible before, in a more-balanced manner, and with additional design options that didn't previously exist. So when you say that options are limited, perhaps you should be a bit clearer rather than merely mouthing the platitude that the new CSM are "bland" or "lack options".

The new CSM can do a lot more than any other Codex out there. They have the broadest and most varied selection of effective Troops in the game, along with excellent support options across the rest of the FOC. As far as Codex design goes, the new CSM are outstanding, and I wish my Eldar and IG armies had similar flexibility.

   
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dietrich wrote:I don't have a problem with GW segmenting Chaos like they have the Imperial armies. Allies, if done well, are fine. GW hasn't traditionally done them well though. My vision of the Chaos forces is more like:

Daemons (done)
Recently renegade marines (use Codex: SM)
Vanilla Chaos Marines (use Codex: CSM)
Traitor Legions (needs done)
Traitor IG (use Codex: IG)
Lost and the Damned (needs redone, untrained mobs of zealots and mutants)

The army list for the CSM codex is fine. It's there, you can field a decent army out of it. But, it just doesn't seem to have the same sense of excitement that previous incarnations of the codex have had.


My ideal breakdown would have been:

Codex Chaos: old-school mishmash of renegade marines and traitors
Codex Ruinous Powers: cult legions and selected aligned daemons
Codex Daemonworlds: daemons, but also mutants, more daemon engines, with supplemental rules for fighting on daemonworlds.

I agree with you that it's a perfectly functional book if you want to field evil Space Marines. And certainly players can inject their own creativity into their army fluff, etc. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect more imagination than what's in that book. The designers are first and foremost creative professionals...they're not heavy-duty game theorists, mathematicians, etc. They're there to inspire, but IMO they fell far short in this instance.

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JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:The fact remains, whether in YOUR OPINION it was hardly worth caring about, options have been limited.

codexes should permit players to create their own image, their bit of list art. The old codex was especially good at that.

Everybody lost wargear, not just CSM, so it's not something to care about. Now, if CSM were singled out this way, there would be a leg to stand on, but that's not the case. Similarly, everybody lost variant lists (i.e. Traits, Doctrines, Craftworlds), not just CSM, so again, it's not a real complaint that I would recognize.

What matters is what you can do with the CSM list in terms theme and design. And the current one does a lot more than the old one. Mixed Marks and Cult troops immediately come to mind as a major change. More balanced FOC offerings as well. Much tighter balance between all units.

For example, someone was complaining that they couldn't field his Daemonettes, but what he was *really* complaining about was that his perviously-uber (and better than CSM) Daemonettes were nerfed down to non-Rending standard Daemons that CSM were better than. Similarly, Havocs "losing" Cult weapon options, despite those models being fieldable as regular NM, is easily made up by their sheer versatility with regular Special and Heavy weapons. Same with the Word Bearer not having the imagination to count a MoTz Lord as a Dark Apostle.

In lieu of 8 straitjacketing "Legions" lists, CSM have a flexible list that lets one field 90+% of what was possible before, in a more-balanced manner, and with additional design options that didn't previously exist. So when you say that options are limited, perhaps you should be a bit clearer rather than merely mouthing the platitude that the new CSM are "bland" or "lack options".

The new CSM can do a lot more than any other Codex out there. They have the broadest and most varied selection of effective Troops in the game, along with excellent support options across the rest of the FOC. As far as Codex design goes, the new CSM are outstanding, and I wish my Eldar and IG armies had similar flexibility.


It killed every LATD list.

EDIT: So less is more eh? Thats a unique vision. Especially considering everything that can be done with the new codex I could do with the old codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 20:54:00


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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gorgon wrote:I agree with you that it's a perfectly functional book if you want to field evil Space Marines.

The designers are first and foremost creative professionals...they're not heavy-duty game theorists, mathematicians, etc. They're there to inspire, but IMO they fell far short in this instance.

Yep, and your trifecta of Traitor Marines, Ruinous Powers, and Daemonworld is pretty good, and almost certainly what 40k Chaos will ultimately evolve into. Just look at WFB for inspiration. WFB Chaos was a mismash until someone broke out Beasts vs Hordse, and now they split Hordes into Daemons and Mortals. 40k saw Daemons split off first, so the Traitor vs. Cult Marine split is very likely going to happen later, towards the end of 5th edition.

Actually, Legions catered almost purely to the creative side of their work, and would be applauded if 40k didn't ever have tournaments or other competitive events, but rather focused solely on campaign and narrative gaming. The problem is that 40k's biggest whiners incessantly demand "balance" from the Codices. So GW had to take a step back across the board and simplify the lists into things that were easier to playtest and balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Frazzled wrote:codexes should permit players to create their own image, their bit of list art. The old codex was especially good at that.

In lieu of 8 straitjacketing "Legions" lists, CSM have a flexible list that lets one field 90+% of what was possible before, in a more-balanced manner, and with additional design options that didn't previously exist. So when you say that options are limited, perhaps you should be a bit clearer rather than merely mouthing the platitude that the new CSM are "bland" or "lack options".

The new CSM can do a lot more than any other Codex out there. They have the broadest and most varied selection of effective Troops in the game, along with excellent support options across the rest of the FOC.

It killed every LATD list.

Really?

Where was the LatD army list in the CSM Codex? What page was it on?

Oh, wait, it's *not* in there.

LatD was tied to a discontinued supplement that had nothing more to do with the CSM Codex than anything else out there.

Like Blood Angels, GW is free to do a webdex for LatD at any time. The difference being that BA have actual models, and LatD never did. But to blame LatD on the new CSM book is nonsense. LatD died on their own lack of measurable sales.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 20:55:45


   
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'Could', 'will', 'might' those are all potential future events. In the here and now there is no longer LATD, the is no longer options, merely a straightjacketed renegade marines book which is relatively difficult to tell apart from the vanilla marine dex book. In the here and now, there is no vision.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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The old book had a trillion options...that no one used. And a few that people spammed. Chosen could have Veteran skills....like move through cover. Yeah, that saw a lot of use. Chaos HQ's could have a Dark Blade and move as cavalry, or....they could be suboptimally configured.

Do any of those arguing in favor of the old book even remember that thing? t5 oblits? IC characters that could wipe out squads with with a 24" inch charge starting from behind units and taking advantage of 4th edition's untargettability rule? The ever popular Alpha Legion army with the "choice" of cultists that only a scrub could love, but with the "fluffy" option to give EVERY MARINE IN THE ARMY infiltrate for, what, 1 point? 5 for the chars? The book was rubbish.

God, and the Daemons! Seekers of Slaanesh who moved as Cav and came in off Icons carried by untargettable HQ units who also moved as cav?

Ooh, and remember how Iron Warriors had to lose a fast attack slot to grab a 4th heavy support slot? Visionary writing there! They could also have a servo arm on their warsmith, but no one cared about that as the t5 Obliterators (and indirect firing pie plater, back when that mattered) were shooting you off the board.

The new book has more actual viable options than the old book ever did, and less rubbish. There are 5 troop choices, all of which are mong the best in the game, a great transport, good special characters, and an amazing heavy support section. They've got cheap landraiders, cheap terminators, Marks for all who desire them, and even a broken psychic power for Slaanesh.

The new book is the best codex in the game. Those who argue that it produces lists similar to the Space Marine codex simply aren't playing the tournament scene. CSM lists are rhino borne cult troops backed up by a strong heavy support section. SM lists are rarely made of rhino borne troops. They might have Land Raider Assault Terminators, they might have Ironclad dreadnaughts, they might have drop podding Sternguard with Pedro, or any of a host of other options, but it won't look much like CSM.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

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40kenthusiast wrote:The new book is the best codex in the game. Those who argue that it produces lists similar to the Space Marine codex simply aren't playing the tournament scene.


And it's uninspiring.


You're arguing a different case.

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The people arguing that the CSM codex is actually good just make me laugh - As hard as i try, I cant take them seriously.

The CSM codex is poorly written from a rules perspective as well as a fluff perspective.

For the rules - Why is it that every CSM list is exactly the same - Daemon Prince with lash, Plague Marines, Zerkers, CSM, Obliterators, Defilers, Suicide Terminators? Because these units clearly out do, point for point, every alternative. There is no reason to take non scoring raptors for a mere point less than berzerkers when zerkers completely own them in combat. There is no reason to take a lord when a DP outdoes him in every way for only a few points more. They took out the crazy combinations and upgrades to cater to your own strategy, now theyre just generic lords, princes, etc.

Its not even like units do things differently - No, they just do them WORSE.

Fluff - With that being said, there is no point to playing a fluffy army. My night lords are just black legion painted blue. If I try to play with fluffy units, such as raptors, Im either trading in zerkers (which are much better in CC), or something like Oblits which are also much more points effective, for subpar units.

They took out the legion specific rules that made the army legions unique and rich, as well as effective. While the army can easily win (Ive never lost a game with my Black Legion type list), it gets demolished if you take combinations of the other horrible units.

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To add to what I said earlier, the CSM Codex simply does not work with my army, as it was started and intended. Having been one of the people who played a Cult Army, my want to continue with that army is severely hampered.

Also, being someone who plays Vanilla Space Marines and loves Vanilla Space Marines, playing Vanilla Chaos Marines has very little appeal.

That said, the current dex is certainly playable, and makes me consider the possibility of playing an Chaos warband and for that it is certainly a decent dex.

I just think they should have found a way to address the Cult Armies that many people had, but in that vein, it is no different I suppose than making various Loyalist Marine armies wait for rules.


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JohnHwangDD wrote:Those of us who wanted the freedom to make our armies in our own image were pretty happy to see the new book.


You keep repeating this line like it actually means something John. How does removing choice somehow restrict you less? Do you want to explain the (no-doubt) killer logic that goes behind stupid statements like the one above?

To put it another way, you are arguing that:

Previous Codex - Less freedom:
Black Legion list that allows for virtually anything.
8 Legion lists for a variety of flavours.

Current Codex - More freedom:
1 List that allows for virtually anything.

Umm... does not compute?

Frazz wrote:Come on JH I expect a more reasoned argument from you.


You do? Jesus Frazz... where the feth have you been?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/07 23:09:12


   
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how about those of us that wanted to run a legion specific force? alot of you that are for the new codex seem to miss the fact that the new book killed of alpha legion (cultists) wordbearers (able to summon different demons).

sure, i can run "deathguard" in the new codex, but i cant have proper lords or termies. termies are supposed to be the vets of the legion, why would i have plague marines and no PM termies? and certainly i could use that argument for lords.

the book supports renegades, which is great, but it snubbed alot of us who actually wanted to restrict ourselves to a specific legion.

and if the book represents the "new renegades" whre are our land speeders and assault cannons? cyclone missile launchers and the like?

i think the book was a shoddy fix to a great previous book that was abused by a few people.

There ain't nearly enough Salvage in this thread!

DS:80+S++G+M++++B++I++pwmhd05+D++A++/fWD88R+++T(S)DM+

Catyrpelius wrote:War Machine is broken to the point of being balanced.

sourclams wrote:I play Warmahordes. It's simply a better game.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?

And the angst over MoN Lord & Termies backed by PM to represent DG? Wow.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?


Anecdotal evidence, isn't.

And you're avoiding the question (surprise surprise!) and attempting to reframe the issue (surprise surprise) and vilify (surprise surprise) those who liked the old Codex as being nothing but Iron Warrior-ing Daemon Bombing power gamers.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And the angst over MoN Lord & Termies backed by PM to represent DG? Wow.


And here start the ad hominems (surprise surprise). Now people who disagree with you are 'angsty'.

One day John you're actually going to have to put up or shut up, cut the bullgakery, and answer someone's question directly. You're not going to be able to worm your way out of it by reframing the question to fit your answer, you're not going to be able to belittle or vilify those who disagree with you, you're not going to be able to try for the moral high ground, you're just going to have to answer the fething question.

That day will be a great day for Dakka.

Until then though, you'll remain the singular black spot on what is otherwise a wonderful 40K forum.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 01:00:52


   
Made in us
Uhlan





Michigan

I think a lot of people are under-valuing many of the units in the current CSM codex.

I for one love the possessed marines. Not only are the models absolutely gorgeous (to me they epitomize chaos and elaborate on just how far gone the traitor legions are), but I think they're wonderfully fun to play. Of course, I am also an ork player who loves random units (shokk attack gun FTW).

Likewise, I field the regular chaos space marines with a variety of marks (dependent upon my mood). They're way more interesting to paint than their "good" brethren, and I also think they're better. They're different enough to make them flavorful to the army. Giving them less heavy weapons, for example, is a prime way to encourage a CSM player to charge forward and get mixed up. Whereas, with my Crimson Fists, I tend to sit back as long as I can, knowing most armies I play are going to chew through my power armor and spit me out as a sticky puddle of strawberry-blueberry yogurt (I play Daemons quite frequently).

I think the only unit I couldn't find a use for are the raptors. Of course, I can't really find a use for the SM assault marines either (and I've tried). Not every unit in every codex has to be amazingly effective, or even average. I really do think that GW puts a lot of units into codices based upon nostalgia. What I think we as players have to remember is that they do that for us.

Sure, the raptors aren't likely to win you games, but they're there for you to use in your Night Lords army if you wish. You'd likely complain more if they weren't there at all, right? I would.

It's not that difficult to support the fluffier units with the more capable ones and have a great game with an army that looks good and fits your imagery.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

StormHalo wrote:It's not that difficult to support the fluffier units with the more capable ones and have a great game with an army that looks good and fits your imagery.


But you could do all that with the last Chaos Codex, plus you could do lots more. We've lost lots and haven't gained anything other than a bland boring Codex. You can better represent Chaos armies using the vanila Marine 'Dex, and that's a huge problem IMO.

As far as undervaluing units and how some units might not be that powerful, I'll repeat myself:

"It's not about power, it's about flavour. He's not complaining about a loss of power, he's complaining about a loss of choice. Many armies vanished when that abortion of a Codex was printed, and in its place we got a single generic army list that's still powerful, but far less interesting."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/08 00:23:17


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

And one day, HBMC will unclench, the rod will fall out, and he'll learn to act like a decent human being.

Guess which event will happen first...

(see, I can do "not attacks", too...")

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Act like a decent human being? Besides yourself I've been nothing but nice, calm and civil to everyone in this thread. I just don't like you because you're a mean spirited poser who likes to talk down at everyone then pretend to be the victim, vilify those you don't agree with, and make endless strawmen and false clauses in an attempt to win arguments that no one else was making.

JohnHwangDD wrote:(see, I can do "not attacks", too...")


Calling me 'not a decent person' is a 'not attack'? What are you blithering about?

Oh, John, BTW, you still haven't answered the question. You're attempting to turn this into a me vs you thing (how long 'til you hit that little 'report post' button John? Have you done it yet? How many times? ) to get the thread locked. Hide behind Dakka's rules in order to avoid the question.

So come on then - how does Less Choice = More Flexible? I know you can answer questions, much as you don't want to. I'm not the only one utterly confused by your nonsensical line of argument - you've got Frazz more frazzled than normal - so go on, I dare you, quit stalling and answer. The. Question.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/07/08 00:32:54


   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

JohnHwangDD wrote:In all the years I played against Chaos Legions, I never saw Cultists. I saw extra Heavies backed by Oblits. I saw Daemonbomb. But Cultists? Really?
You should have seen the sixty I converted for my Alpha Legion.

The Emperor doesn't seem to do much for you but you sure are expected to be mutilated, suffer, and die to make him happy. And is he dead or what? If he's entombed that would mean he's dead as a doornail, right? So, how can he be happy about anything you do, or even give orders to anyone? Are you worshipping the dead now? Is that something you'd really want to do? Because it sounds freaking creepy to me.
 
   
 
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