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Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes



NY

I dont believe he could use the +1 str cause his warlord wasnt mars. Prolly just for WoM and cawl canticle manipulation

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Mira Mesa

You're right, I didn't notice that. That actually changes my view on the list quite a bit. I think the principle benefit is Cawl's full re-roll is most effective on BS4+, like the Dunecrawlers and Bots. Cawl's canticle manipulation only affects the first die for all the Breachers, so I don't think that's worth it compared to just picking the right canticle. Maybe Wrath of Mars is important for ignoring invuls in some matchups, but 3 Dakkabots are hardly a good recipient.

I'd rather drop Cawl and the bots for some Lascannon Ironstriders, like I said initially.

Something like:
Battalion, Data-hoard, Arc
Dominus, Genetor, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Daedalosus
25 Breachers
5 Raiders
4 Ironstriders, Lascannons
2 Dakkabots
2 Dunecrawlers, Icarus Arrays
Fusilave

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 03:08:27


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@DarkHound
There is also the HO WLT, but you cannot fit 15 Breachers in the aura, so eh...

I'd cut Crawlers entirely. This is not like 8E where everything had Fly.

Also surprised that he did not take Mars Canticle. I mean, why not?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 05:45:28


 
   
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NY

 Suzuteo wrote:
@DarkHound
There is also the HO WLT, but you cannot fit 15 Breachers in the aura, so eh...

I'd cut Crawlers entirely. This is not like 8E where everything had Fly.

Also surprised that he did not take Mars Canticle. I mean, why not?


he would have had to take another HQ in the mars detachment to get both the canticle and HO trait while running cawl

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I still don't even know if 25 Breachers can beat a Marines list. If they bring 1000 points of Gravis armour, they outgun us by a wide margin (because we no longer have 5++ or resurrection). Salamanders with meltas and flamestorm gauntlets. Everyone else with boltstorm spam. And they can advance and shoot with no penalty; 12 S4 AP1 (AP2 for one turn) shots with 23″ threat radius and +1 to wound with a Chaplain.

Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 09:43:04


 
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

If the meta settles on "Bring the most efficient MEQ-killer units you can" we can assume Marines will do the same as they'll face mostly Marines themselves. So they'll play Damage 2 or 3 weaponry, Gravis to counter bolters etc. So isn't it a good idea to go against the tide and play lists that don't fit the MEQ model ? Breachers are like Gravis marines after all, Destroyers less resilient though. Graviton, plasma and melta will have a field day against them.

Wouldnt Skitarii Horde work decently ? I can see them played as Lucius to be quite fitting, as they'll ignore the bolters' AP-1 and waste any multi-damage shot their way. Pack them with a handful of plasma calivers, and prefer Vanguards to Rangers, and they can do honesy damage on their own. Try to submerge objectives with multiple units to have more models than the Marine player with ObSec (as Kataphrons aren't very numerous) and keep the classic Dakkabots and Ironstriders for the lethality.

40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
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 Aaranis wrote:
If the meta settles on "Bring the most efficient MEQ-killer units you can" we can assume Marines will do the same as they'll face mostly Marines themselves. So they'll play Damage 2 or 3 weaponry, Gravis to counter bolters etc. So isn't it a good idea to go against the tide and play lists that don't fit the MEQ model ? Breachers are like Gravis marines after all, Destroyers less resilient though. Graviton, plasma and melta will have a field day against them.

Wouldnt Skitarii Horde work decently ? I can see them played as Lucius to be quite fitting, as they'll ignore the bolters' AP-1 and waste any multi-damage shot their way. Pack them with a handful of plasma calivers, and prefer Vanguards to Rangers, and they can do honesy damage on their own. Try to submerge objectives with multiple units to have more models than the Marine player with ObSec (as Kataphrons aren't very numerous) and keep the classic Dakkabots and Ironstriders for the lethality.


Then, you will have multi damage weapons shooting at your dakkabots and ironstriders and their bolters aiming at your horde. Perfect for maximizing utility of their weapons.

If you saturate the board with multiwounds at least half the weapons of the adversary wouldn't be perfect for the target.

If I'd play horde, Id play horde. Take just two or three light vehicles and will be blown away turn one.

But hey, nothing is perfect.
   
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Im not a fan of bringing Cawl in mixed or split detachments. You either focus on his aspect which is shooting efficiency and list tailor that way or you go for priests and boats. not both.
If you arent rolling for his canticles you lose too much of his efficiency.

I am currently looking at pure mars double patrol including:

1* Belisarius Cawl (ML: Static)
1* Enginseer (WL: Artisans + Autocad)

5* Kataphron Breachers
5* Kataphron Breachers

10* Corpuscarii Electropriests

5* AC Ironstrider Ballistari
5* Serberys Raiders
5* Serberys Raiders
5* Serberys Raiders

1* Belleros Skorpius Disintegrator
1* Belleros Skorpius Disintegrator
1* Belleros Skorpius Disintegrator

1* Archaeopter Fusilave
1* Archaeopter Fusilave

2000pt

Secondaries tend to favour: EOAF, WWSWF, and a spare. Scramblers has worked and mission specifics.

Generally fan raiders on flanks and centre, moveblock with flyers and then push a unit of breachers up ahead of my boats(who use terrain) and a second unit behind flank ahead of striders. I just play keep away for the most part with corpuscarii threatening a flank with WoM / -2ap in from reserve to keep them honest. Breachers ive found are nice for denying zippy units to fly over and steal primary and their bases are big for denying board.

   
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 Suzuteo wrote:
I still don't even know if 25 Breachers can beat a Marines list. If they bring 1000 points of Gravis armour, they outgun us by a wide margin (because we no longer have 5++ or resurrection). Salamanders with meltas and flamestorm gauntlets. Everyone else with boltstorm spam. And they can advance and shoot with no penalty; 12 S4 AP1 (AP2 for one turn) shots with 23″ threat radius and +1 to wound with a Chaplain.

Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.
I mean, the list took 3rd at a grand tournament, so it's clearly up to snuff. All our quibbling is merely academic.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@DarkHound
There is also the HO WLT, but you cannot fit 15 Breachers in the aura, so eh...

I'd cut Crawlers entirely. This is not like 8E where everything had Fly.

Also surprised that he did not take Mars Canticle. I mean, why not?
He needs the Holy Order trait to be in the Custom Forgeworld with the Breachers to apply to them, so no Mars canticle just isn't an option. The Crawlers are actually really really good against specific meta boogymen like Harlies and Dark Eldar: all their vehicles have fly but not Hard to Hit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 16:16:36


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Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Wow, big changes coming in the V9 codexes:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&utm_content=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&fbclid=IwAR3N7_06Xy5AfDY2ZEIpsrATGEOK4TEPCMvytF3dwr8pQUYZVsJ8Dhw75II

In short, the introduction of "Core" keyword to units like basic infantry, Terminators, bikes and such means that aura abilities may just affect those "Core" units. In the exemple they show a Repulsor no longer benefiting from rerolls from a Captain, or a Captain no longer boosted by a Lieutenant's Aura.

I sincerely hope they'll boost the Dakkabots' BS to 3+ or change their datasheet in another way as to compensate the loss of Cawl's aura, or even just the Dominus. I doubt they'll be core units. But in a way, IF THEY WRITE THE CODEX WELL, it will means less incentive to just play Cawl and friends and may encourage us to play other Forge-Worlds and builds. Seeing as the V9 dogmas look to be much more than just a short sentence (seeing the new Necrons for example) this could be great for diversity and so be less predictable in game, as we'll have more ways to play.

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Mira Mesa

Yeah, that's a step in the right direction. You're right that we'll need to rebalance a lot of units with a new codex, but this will give GW better control over units' power. As it stands, they have to account for the strongest possible situation for a unit, and so its baseline power is often reduced to compensate for buffs. Consequently, the unit isn't powerful enough in other situations: see literally all of our vehicles without Mars canticle and Cawl.

It'll be a good change for the game eventually, but I expect the rollout to be extremely rocky.

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 DarkHound wrote:
Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.
I mean, the list took 3rd at a grand tournament, so it's clearly up to snuff. All our quibbling is merely academic.

I have seen weird lists luck out in matchmaking. Fact is, 40K at 2000 points is not great for a competitive format because of how few games you play, even at a GT. Other games can fit 10-14 games in such a long timeframe.

 DarkHound wrote:
He needs the Holy Order trait to be in the Custom Forgeworld with the Breachers to apply to them, so no Mars canticle just isn't an option. The Crawlers are actually really really good against specific meta boogymen like Harlies and Dark Eldar: all their vehicles have fly but not Hard to Hit.

Ah right.

Crawlers fall flat against Marines. I know I sound like a broken record, but I think we should specialize first against the most difficult to beat list there is and worry about the other lists later. Besides, Dakkabots are amazing against these targets. Grav Destroyers really suck though, since they have 5+ and 6+ saves and rely on invulnerables. I would just aim them at infantry.

That said, the new Core keyword takes some of the heat off of us. At least now we're sure that Marines will be spamming Core units. Lol.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

Yeah I can't argue that a Fist Kastelan is worth the same as a Dakkastelan, and that a Dakkastelan is worth that much without Cawl. Well we won't have our codex until next year so plenty of time left. I hope we'll get our Primus sooner !

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@Aaranis
Concerning Core units, I am not sure if AdMech will get the same treatment. We don't have nearly as wide an array of choices, and we're known for our vehicles. In fact, you pretty much cannot play AdMech with some degree of mechanization.
   
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dorset

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Aaranis
Concerning Core units, I am not sure if AdMech will get the same treatment. We don't have nearly as wide an array of choices, and we're known for our vehicles. In fact, you pretty much cannot play AdMech with some degree of mechanization.


well, they have explicitly stated that "some" vehicles will be getting the CORE keyword. my guess is the smaller ones, things like SMurf bikes and such. Maybe some of the Fast Attack vehicle options IG Sentinels, or our own Ironstriders and Dragoons, could get the CORE keyword as well.


Seeing as terminators are getting CORE, its logical that some Elite unit choices might get it as well. for admech. we have the Secutarii (personally, not likely, as forge world), the Sicarians (possible, but im not sure they'd benefit much) or the Electro priests (given how popular they are, i'd say most likely), or possibly some new elite choice as part of codex buzz.

heavy support? im not sure. my gut says that SM Devastators will be CORE, so i expect some elements might be. but apart form the Dakabots, i cant think of anything that might get it.


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It would be ironic if our infantry don't get Core.

But I honestly find it difficult for our codex specifically because we're technically two-and-a-half codexes smashed together.

Maybe all Skitarii and Cult units will get it. Or Maybe they will have Skitarii and Cult specific auras. Maybe Knights will be integrated into the codex finally, but not get Core.
   
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I would hope the CORE keyword would depend more on the army style. I'm sure troops will get it by default but, with Admech being more themed around shooting, I would hope our tanks and shooty units would get it too. Otherwise it would make the few useful auras we have useless in some lists.

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If GW is going after army "themes" then AdMech troops would not get the Core keyword. Our entire army is based around machine worship, so it would makes sense, thematically for the army not necessarily balance-wise, that most of our vehicles would get the Core keyword.

Tech Priests do not care at all about Skitarii or Kataphrons. I mean they use Skitarii as batteries in Dunecrawlers for Emperors sake haha.

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Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

But we know a Primus is coming, commander of Skitarii, and Skitarii are still good troops, they'll assuredly get "core". I think most of the foot units will get "core", with exceptions. Maybe our lightest vehicles will retain their rerolls if we follow the example of Tomb Blades getting it.

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 Aaranis wrote:
But we know a Primus is coming, commander of Skitarii, and Skitarii are still good troops, they'll assuredly get "core". I think most of the foot units will get "core", with exceptions. Maybe our lightest vehicles will retain their rerolls if we follow the example of Tomb Blades getting it.


Yea, I suppose we will have to see. I am stoked for that Primus model stat line tho, finally a SKITARII HQ.

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Enginseer with a Wrench





It would actually be pretty fluffy for our character auras to ignore this new Core keyword concept. Nobody in our army is inspiring anyone, they're all digital commands and sub-routines that affect all systems within their radius.

Would actually be a decent army rule, although I kinda would hope to get improved auras by restricting what they can effect.
   
Made in be
Mysterious Techpriest





Belgium

By this train of thought then Tyranids should ignore it too, as well as T'au maybe. Drukhari are not really "inspired" by their leaders neither. I've always interpreted rerolls as the commander giving precise orders to the surrounding units, resulting in a more efficient shooting/assault, translating in rerolls in game. But there's got to be a frontier between fluff and crunch, otherwise there's a lot of things we can add to the complain bin.

I'm hoping for a complete rework of our codex (and the others too of course), rewriting faulty datasheets to make them more original, as well as stratagems, warlords traits, dogmas etc. I'd like characters to be less polyvalent in their auras, giving a better, more thematic buff but to a few units only.

For example a Datasmith would chose a bonus to give to a maximum number of Kastelan units around him, among a list of options. Could be +1 to WS, or +1 AP on their guns, something like that. A list to allow changes every turn to be more flexible. It would give the character a purpose at least.

A Primus could boost everything Skitarii, if using a list like I said above it could be a variant of our old Doctrinas to make them fight better, or shoot better, be unbreakable or something along these lines.

The Enginseer could boost vehicles. The Dominus be more suited to lead Servitors but still give a small aura to everything else.

I hope every codex is written like that but time will tell.

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Mira Mesa

Like I said, applying auras broadly is how you end up with every unit being balanced around having Cawl, thus necessitating Cawl to be effective. We'll see what actually ends up happening, and how or even if they roll out <Core> to other factions before their new codex. We'll probably get our next book in the first half of next year, but that's still a long way away.

By the way, has anyone been playing Crusades? I've been having a blast. You end up playing very different from matched play games. While it's pretty easy to identify the most generically powerful upgrades, I've found that specializing units is more useful and more fun.

One unit of my Ruststalker units has Fleet of Foot to improve charge chances after using Circuitous Assassins, while the other has upgraded Chordclaws for chewing through MEQs (-1AP, +1 damage). Next, I'll probably upgrade the backfielders with ObSec and upgrade the midfielders' Razors with exploding 6s for hordes.

Each of my Warglaives has different upgrades to reflect some specialization and preference of the pilots. One's faster for Full Tilt, one's better against MEQ, one's better against vehicles.

For my Manipulus, I'm also planning on taking Monitor Malevolus, Laurels of Victory, and Tactical Experience (after you use a strat, on a 6 gain 1CP). You still can't gain more than 1 CP per battle round, but you can roll Monitor and Experience at the same time to gain CP more reliably. Just maximize CP for an extra 7 per game.

I'm also looking at building more snipers, even though they don't make the cut in normal games. I took 5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus because I have the models for Kill Team and I like them, but the Headhunters upgrade makes them shine. +1 wound roll causes Mortals on a 5. I might expand them to 10 with 3 rifles, and get +1 damage and -1AP on the next upgrade. I plan to do basically the same thing with my Raiders. That might make both of them a staple in my Crusades.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/18 19:03:42


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Mysterious Techpriest






Yeah Crusade can be a lot of fun. You can create some monstrous things... just stacking enough battle honours on something can really create some insane things.

But aren't weapon upgrades for a single model?
As I recall the upgrade, it doesnt count for the unit.. because otherwise High Caliber (+1S for a ranged weapon) would be insane on... well anything. 10 Vanguard would suddenly outbolter marines with a fair margin...

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Wow, you are right. I'm surprised my friends and I totally misunderstood the rules. I thought the upgrade applied to the unit and crazy OP stuff was just going to be the norm. At least it didn't affect the few games I played too much.

I suppose most infantry will be pretty unlikely to get more than 1 battle honor. After the first, it's inefficient to Mark them for Glory, and they'll take most of the Out of Action tests so lose experience most often.

My strategy was to Mark units that didn't score secondaries, so everybody hit Bloodied around game 3. Beyond that, I'm not sure what AdMech's best investments are.

Our HQs aren't really fighters, and there aren't too many support Honors: Tactical Experience, Laurels of Victory, and Inspiring Hero (I guess?). The best fighting HQ I could think of was a Manipulus with Prime Hermeticon, Psuedogenetor, and start stacking attacks with Deadly Charge and Frenzon Injector, but that still wasn't hugely impressive. For a shooting HQ, you can go Dominus with Phospheonix, Magos, and upgrade the Volkite with AP-1. That's about 3 wounds vs MEQs, which isn't awful, but still meh.

Ironstriders and Dakkabots pick up Armour Bane, and then like Improved Shielding or Blessed Hulls? Going for a gun enhancement on one model doesn't seem revolutionary, and the re-rolls are redundant.

I can see Icarus Dunecrawlers getting a big bump from +1S and Armour Bane. Disintegrators are also good, but you only upgrade half their weapons.

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In general if it sounds insanely strong it probably isnt supposed to work that way. Unless youre marines of course.

Ive found several things that made me go HOLY CRAP THATS INSANE and i read it again and go "Oh...nevermind" lol

An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.

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well it can make a fair bit of difference on vehicles or other low model count units.
Like going with a S8 Belleros Cannon or S10 Ferumite to tag T5 targets. Arquebi are a valid target as well to go to S8.

While I didnt start a crusade with admech, I did so with custodes - and my line troop has essentially a heavy bolter combi weapon.
Putting it on 1 of 3 units means he now wounds T3 on 2s instead of 3s which is significant. Same counts for Kastelan e.g. (if you run Mars) you now wound Marines on 2s.

There are some really neat relics IIRC on the later tiers that you could give your HQs for battle honours. Skitarii infantry however - yes, those guys are and will remain chaff.

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Quick question, which is better: 2 x 5man squads of electro priests or one 10 man squad? Assuming elite slots are available, im curious if its better to have one big squad or two smaller ones that could potentially attack t we'r o objectives at once

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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xerxeskingofking wrote:
Quick question, which is better: 2 x 5man squads of electro priests or one 10 man squad? Assuming elite slots are available, im curious if its better to have one big squad or two smaller ones that could potentially attack t we'r o objectives at once

As large a unit as possible for Priests. They are both very stratagem dependent. Fulgurites use Zealous Congregation and Acquisition At Any Cost. Corpuscarii use Electrostatic Overcharge.
   
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NY

another data horde breacher spam list took 4th at the brisbane GT. 5x5 breachers, 2 manipulus, dominus and 3 disintegrators and a stygies outrider with daedalosus, 3 squads of raiders and 2 units of sterylizors.

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