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I play CSM and I just bought a Deamon Prince, witch is better, MoT or MoS, and is warptime better than lash?

warptime is a definite must as it will allow you to re-roll all hits and wounds in the shooting and assault phase

This isnt a rules related question.

Moving to tactics.

lash and warptime do very different things.

Lash is for when you want to move your opponent's models, while warptime is if you want to be better in close combat with a 4++ DP.

Of course, if you're looking for which demon prince is "best" (which I assume, given your two options given), it would be the one with lash, if you can make use of lash, followed by a DP with a mark of khorne (-1 invul save, but does slightly more damage, and costs less), followed by a tzeentch DP with either warptime or gifts of chaos.

Nurgle + WT is better than Tzeentch + WT. You can get a 4+ cover save from terrain or your Rhinos. T6 is better overall.

The Spartan Prince (cheap with just wings) is also quite good.

I like Nurgle's Rot on a Nurgle Prince over Warptime. What's the one thing Daemon Princes have issue with? Hordes. The fact Nurgle's Rot is cast in the shooting phase will let you bring down even Termagant broods. The only upgrades that aren't worth while are the Mark of Khorne and Bolt of Change.

actually, yeah, a rot prince wouldn't be that bad either.

Warptime, nurgle rot etc are good. For cc prince mon is superb. I wouldn't give a prince lash. If I wanted lash I would use a sorcerer.

Wings+warptime. Everything you need.


MoN if you feel fancy

Wow guys thanks for your commits I think I know what to do now

Ok so here's what I ended up with for the DP

MoN Wings and Warp-time, I figured that would really round him out for a good bash and crash!

Two questions? do I actually have to have the mark of nurgle some were on the model or what? Can I use this back pack or do I have to actual wings?

counts-as, my friend, counts-as. You could have a 20oz paper cup and call it a MoN prince with wings and that would be it.

If you want to do it proper, making it look like a nurgle model wouldn't hurt.

As for wings, you can always say that he gets where he goes by jumping. The or wings or a jetpack of some sort wouldn't hurt.

MoK DP is kind of a waste. you cant get warptime which is woonderful for CC. +1 attack just doesnt stack up to getting to reroll your hits and wounds, not even close

Yes, it does. Warptime is way over-rated.

Remember, that if you're going to choose to reroll, you have to reroll ALL dice, not just misses or rolls that fail to wound. That means, straight away, that the power is useless when you roll above average. After that, it's also worthless if you roll average, and of only very minor use if you roll slightly less than average. Most of your rolls, warptime will do nothing or worse than nothing.

The only thing warptime helps with is if you have a really awful roll, which are rare (or else you wouldn't count them as awful). +1A helps you during those awful rolls, but also helps you on average rolls and good rolls as well.

All that and it's cheaper to boot, and can't be stopped by psychic hoods and null zones and the like.

Can confirm this? I have always played it as reroll misses. I mean, what's the point if you have to reroll everything? I thought you "CAN" choose to reroll. So, for your hits and wounds which are successful, you opt not to reroll them. And you opt only to reroll those which you missed.

The basic rule for re-rolls in the rulebook is that if you are entitled to re-roll a group of dice, those re-rolls are optional.

I've heard Ailaros' opinion expressed elsewhere, but I've never seen it played that way at a real tournament. Part of that is the RAW, and part of that is people recognizing what he's pointed out- under his interpretation, the power is largely useless, so that doesn't seem likely to have been GW's intention.

There are two ways I run a demon prince:

Wings, MOT, warptime, winds of chaos

or

Wings, MON, warptime

Nothing else is really worth taking.

As far as how to actually use warptime, just re-roll the dice you want to re-roll. It's a badly worded entry. If your opponent says otherwise, then tell him that nothing without eyes represented on the model can shoot that game (no lie, rulebook says so, but no ones ass enough to enforce it)

Ailaros wrote:Yes, it does. Warptime is way over-rated.

Remember, that if you're going to choose to reroll, you have to reroll ALL dice, not just misses or rolls that fail to wound. That means, straight away, that the power is useless when you roll above average. After that, it's also worthless if you roll average, and of only very minor use if you roll slightly less than average. Most of your rolls, warptime will do nothing or worse than nothing.

The only thing warptime helps with is if you have a really awful roll, which are rare (or else you wouldn't count them as awful). +1A helps you during those awful rolls, but also helps you on average rolls and good rolls as well.

I though you could re-roll any dice you wanted, not all of them.

Durza wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Yes, it does. Warptime is way over-rated.

Remember, that if you're going to choose to reroll, you have to reroll ALL dice, not just misses or rolls that fail to wound. That means, straight away, that the power is useless when you roll above average. After that, it's also worthless if you roll average, and of only very minor use if you roll slightly less than average. Most of your rolls, warptime will do nothing or worse than nothing.

The only thing warptime helps with is if you have a really awful roll, which are rare (or else you wouldn't count them as awful). +1A helps you during those awful rolls, but also helps you on average rolls and good rolls as well.

I though you could re-roll any dice you wanted, not all of them.

The wording is a bit vague on the rule. I myself have never seen it played as reroll all or none, but it can be argued either way.

Mannahnin wrote:The basic rule for re-rolls in the rulebook is that if you are entitled to re-roll a group of dice, those re-rolls are optional.

I've heard Ailaros' opinion expressed elsewhere, but I've never seen it played that way at a real tournament. Part of that is the RAW, and part of that is people recognizing what he's pointed out- under his interpretation, the power is largely useless, so that doesn't seem likely to have been GW's intention.

I'm actually surprised that tournaments rule that way. Actually, not I'm not, tournaments are notorious for bad rulings that they foist on people.

The ability isn't worthless if you play it by the proper you must reroll all rule. Warptime basically flub-proofs your DP, which isn't too shabby on a model that already has +1 to T, I, or ++ save. The only problem is that, for pure CC ability per point, it doesn't beat a DP with MoK, as well it shouldn't.

Plus, at 25 points, it seems like a fair, if somewhat overpriced upgrade (not unlike most chaos upgrades). Spending that few points to make your DP at least 33% better in close combat seems more than off, given the price you had to pay for the original 100%.

Ailaros wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The basic rule for re-rolls in the rulebook is that if you are entitled to re-roll a group of dice, those re-rolls are optional.

I've heard Ailaros' opinion expressed elsewhere, but I've never seen it played that way at a real tournament. Part of that is the RAW, and part of that is people recognizing what he's pointed out- under his interpretation, the power is largely useless, so that doesn't seem likely to have been GW's intention.

I'm actually surprised that tournaments rule that way. Actually, not I'm not, tournaments are notorious for bad rulings that they foist on people.

Really? You're first going to reinforce the point that you don't actually know how it's ruled in tournaments, then you're going to dismiss how it's ruled in competitive events by smearing them in general? You don't think that's a bit hostile and non-constructive? Well-run tournaments (which is what I meant by "real") involve organizers putting serious effort into making a fair and fun structure and event for the participants. Bad rulings being foisted on people can be one of two things: A badly-run event, or sour-grapes complaints from immature players who get angry over a ruling they don't like, even it is is fair and reasonable.

Ailaros wrote:The ability isn't worthless if you play it by the proper you must reroll all rule. Warptime basically flub-proofs your DP, which isn't too shabby on a model that already has +1 to T, I, or ++ save. The only problem is that, for pure CC ability per point, it doesn't beat a DP with MoK, as well it shouldn't.
fair, if somewhat overpriced upgrade (not unlike most chaos upgrades). Spending that few points to make your DP at least 33% better in close combat seems more than off, given the price you had to pay for the original 100%.

So you went from saying Warp Time is way over-rated, and only helps in the rare circumstance that you roll awful, and now you're backing away from that opinion. Okay. Maybe the reason you think it's way overrated is because you interpret the rule differently than most people? I've only played tournaments in eleven states, so I certainly haven't played everywhere, but the consensus seems pretty consistent.

If you're only playing at tournaments that you consider good, then good for you. I've seen enough battle reports from tournaments to see how poor most of them are. "That's how it was ruled at a tournament I was at once" is much less than a convincing reason to take a particular position in my mind.

And I never said that warptime is utterly useless, just that it's way over-rated. People saying...

Killadoza wrote:MoK DP is kind of a waste. you cant get warptime which is woonderful for CC. +1 attack just doesnt stack up to getting to reroll your hits and wounds, not even close

... is silly.

Plus, if you're not taking MoK, that means you can take other psychic powers, of which there are better options than warptime.

Ailaros wrote:If you're only playing at tournaments that you consider good, then good for you. I've seen enough battle reports from tournaments to see how poor most of them are. "That's how it was ruled at a tournament I was at once" is much less than a convincing reason to take a particular position in my mind.

Some say a picture is worth a thousand words.




MoK on a prince is so bad i can't help but mok people who use it! (MoK is worse than that joke )

Warptime RAW
The Psyker surrounds himself with a dimensional instability, which warps the passage of time and grants the target the opprotunity to place his attacks with supernatural precision.

The Power is used at the start of any players turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that players turn.

First off from a logical point of view, the fluff defines it as a means to strike with supernatural precision. to me that means more accurate and more deadly than his WS or S normally allow. ergo re rolling all the dice doesnt make sense.

More importantly, no where in the rules does it say you have to roll a handful of dice, thats just the suggested method to save time. My point is say you are someone who rolls one of his 4 attacks at a time. first roll: is a 1, thats a miss. May reroll ALL rolls. that was one roll so it may be re rolled. I am pretty sure that GW has ment it to mean misses and failed wounds can be re rolled, not en entire fistful of rolls.

I don't know why you would want to take warptime over lash. Warptime means you're better if you get into CC. Lash means you get into CC.

RE-ROLLS & ROLL-OFFS
Re-rolls
In some situations the rules allow you a ‘re-roll’ of
the dice. This is exactly as it sounds – pick up the
dice you wish to re-roll and roll them again. The
second score counts, even if it means a worse
result than the first, and no single dice can be
re-rolled more than once regardless of the source
of the re-roll. If you re-roll a 2D6 or 3D6 roll, you
must re-roll all of the dice and not just some of
them, unless the rule granting you the re-roll
explicitly specifies otherwise.

From the rule book it say you may re-roll specific dice .


The Psyker surrounds himself with a dimensional instability, which warps the passage of time and grants the target the opprotunity to place his attacks with supernatural precision. The Power is used at the start of any players turn. If successful, the psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that players turn.

From Chaos Space Marine codex

The psyker may re-roll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound for the entirety of that players turn. That simply means that you may re-roll all failed dice for rolling to hit and rolling wound for the turn eg shooting phase and assault phase.

One thing i didnt notice iuntil this thread and i reread the rule is that Warptime can be cast at the start of ANY players turn, you you can us it in every assualt phase. thats a bargin of a spell IMO.

Lash is really cool and helps you get the charge you want, but think about this. if you are using lash to get you targets to charge, you are probably close enough to assualt something. and nothing that is worth assaulting that turn is going to run away from you if they are 19 inches away and stay away. lashes cant work on vehchles so the ever popular transport spams will mitigate the use of lash as well as the psychic defense that exists in a handful of armies. WT can be used in every assault phase, making for many more armor ignoring wounds while lash mearly sets you up for a charge giving you +1 attack.

Killadoza wrote:One thing i didnt notice iuntil this thread and i reread the rule is that Warptime can be cast at the start of ANY players turn, you you can us it in every assualt phase. thats a bargin of a spell IMO.

I hope you mean it can be cast at the start of any players turn and you can benifit from it in the shooting phase and assault phase, and the assault phase of your enemy players turn

Killadoza wrote:Lash is really cool and helps you get the charge you want, but think about this. if you are using lash to get you targets to charge, you are probably close enough to assualt something. and nothing that is worth assaulting that turn is going to run away from you if they are 19 inches away and stay away. lashes cant work on vehchles so the ever popular transport spams will mitigate the use of lash as well as the psychic defense that exists in a handful of armies. WT can be used in every assault phase, making for many more armor ignoring wounds while lash mearly sets you up for a charge giving you +1 attack.

The Lash Of Submition isn't just a tool to get you the charge. I like to use it to throw enemy units at my berzerkers so they can the charge and ahnilate them or to throw them towards my daemon prince. i've also used it to deny my enemies terminators battle time throwing my brothers sword bretheren terminators to the edge of the board so they don't interupt my carnage was fun lol but the most useful use for the Lash is to throw units off objectives or throw them further from yours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bearjrca wrote:Ok so here's what I ended up with for the DP

MoN Wings and Warp-time, I figured that would really round him out for a good bash and crash!

Two questions? do I actually have to have the mark of nurgle some were on the model or what? Can I use this back pack or do I have to actual wings?

Chaos Space Marines FAQ's and Erratas state the the model must have a set of wings, but i reckon you could argue that they are tucked away for safe keeping untill they need to be used

Awesome! I didn't want to add wings to the model if i didn't have to just for looks