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I like the 5-10 Guardian units, even if they are relatively cheap and vulnerable compared with aspects.

I'm confident of S5 Dire Avenger Catapults, but I'm less confident it's going to be easy balancing Blade Storm - an ability that's already on the cheap side.
Essentially, currently a unit of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm performs close to their points, while a unit without does not. In my opinion.

Shimmershield providing a full 5++ is certainly interesting. The problem is that it's stuck on the Exarch, this makes it a vulnerability at the same time as forcing it to be a flat upgrade cost which either results in too low or too high.
On the other hand, the Exarch is forced to use a single Power Weapon and can't shoot at all.

What if Dire Avengers instead of having Blade Storm, running on the assumption that they get S5 catapults, were to have an Exarch power that allowed them to make a difficult terrain move in the assault phase unless assaulting?

Gwyidion wrote:you are quite simply wrong.

In what world is an 18" range + a 6" assault move untouchable by 24" RF guns? If the guns can't fire, the eldar player was cheating. That isn't even mentioning that there are plenty of weapons/delivery platforms which have no problem reaching out and touching an infantry unit at <24".

I don't think rending should be added. Its the ubiquitous upgrade.

Catapults Defenders can't use without basically committing suicide is not 'fine' its a joke. Adding 6" of range to a gun two troop choices and every tank takes is a minor change - especially when you consider the range and role of those tank's primary weapons. 18" range on S. cats matters for vypers and wave serpents, and really nothing else. And for those two really only when the main gun is destroyed!

It isn't a big deal. It is a little change meant to make one of the most maligned troop choices in the entirety of 40k a little more effective.

S5 on DAs is likewise, very small. It doesn't make them ID anything. It doesn't make them flexible into AT, it doesn't make them tear apart anything they care about. It makes them wound marines on 3s. That is an important shift because right now, their main role is "scoring cargo", and they need a doomseer to provide support for them to make them even marginally decent at killing the most ubiquitous infantry in the game. DAs need a buff, and it shouldn't be 24" range, it shouldn't be rending, i don't think it should be BS5. Running out of options.


And, in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

Maligned as in not super killy is fine. Again giving them 1 free shuriken cannon platform per 5 and then backed up by either 12" range SC or rapid fire SC gives them a role that no DA can match. Make it +5 to shift to shuriken cannon and we are talking 90 pts for 8 S6 shots out to 36". If someone dares to get close to them, add 8 S4 shots and if they walk within 12" 16 S4 shots. So wounding we are talking about 6 for 90 pts at 18" compared to DA putting out 11 for around 150 pts. That seems reasonable. Putting out 10 wounds for 90 versus 11 for 150 at 18" range seems OP. The flexibility of guardians should be their selling point - the flexibility in 2 EML or 2 BL or 2 Scatter Lasers allows the guardians to be outfitted to fill a need in the eldar list. If you make it +5 for SL +10 for EML, +15 for ROF 3 StC and +20 BL you already have 120 for two Bright Lance or two pulse laser. for 80 pts you are putting out 6 S6 shots. - not too shabby. Sure a DA can put out a ton of shots at S4 but that is all it can do. It is a focused troop killer.

I disagree with S5 cats on the principle that it makes it vehicle affecting with a high ROF weapon (potentially 3 with bladestorm). To me the eldar are an over-concentration of 6 S heavy weapons backed up by a lot of S4 killiness designed to deliver the coup de grace. The TAU are the no heavy weapon S5 shootiness. I will say it again make DA cats S5 and you have ensured an OT upgrade to preserve the Tau their firepower.

As far as most maligned troop choice - I would put Necron Warriors and Tau Firewarriors far ahead of guardians with only the need for more platforms as a wish item. Going back to the old codex, the eldar loved to field 6-man guardian units (I believe it was 6 maybe 5) with a platform. The nerf of the current codex is making the eldar put 10 defenders out there to field 1 platform. That has added a 50% cost to any guardian formation as well as the low concentration of HW. Between war walkers, vehicle mounts and even wraith lords a guardian unit -at best offers the same firepower with no survivability. Thus when given the choice of a wave serpent or a 10-man guardian squad with a platform, it is a no brainer and you play a wave serpent.

I like the DA SS providing 5++ no matter whether it is shooting or CC.

Mahtamori wrote:I'm confident of S5 Dire Avenger Catapults, but I'm less confident it's going to be easy balancing Blade Storm - an ability that's already on the cheap side.
Essentially, currently a unit of Dire Avengers with Blade Storm performs close to their points, while a unit without does not. In my opinion.
*snip*
What if Dire Avengers instead of having Blade Storm, running on the assumption that they get S5 catapults, were to have an Exarch power that allowed them to make a difficult terrain move in the assault phase unless assaulting?

How about adding another drawback to bladestorm as well, maybe they cant assault after? or can only assault d6" after? Either that our you could just up the price of the power?

For swooping hawks what do guys think about changing lasblasters weapon profile to 24 inch str x, ap -, assault 2.
Units hit by lasblasters are always wounded on +4, furthermore if the targets armor save is better than a 4+ it is reduced to reduced to 4+, inv. saves are not effected. Lasblasters have affect no on vehicles.

so for example if it wounds a termie, they would have a 4+ save instead of a 2+ (unless the termie had a storm shield).

I got the ideal from bright lances, and it would help explain the 4+ save across the board, also this would give hawks and spiders different roles spiders would be anti-horde and hawks would be anit-heavy infantry, both would be fairly effective againist MC but not over the top againist them by any means.

For Swooping Hawks a small version of the Bright Lance would be interesting and set them apart from the other FA choices, however, I don't personally see a reason - gameplay or fluff - for them to be witchblade-tech.
They can be completely fine as "simple" advanced lasers of one kind or other.

I suggested a fixed to wound roll to keep them from being too effective againist hordes (leave that for warp spiders).

Considering that sniper rifles have a fixed to wound rate a laser based weapon that ignores armor to certain point could have similiar effects, and with DE having poison I thought it was appropriate from a rule and fluff prospective.

That said I think maybe changing it to wounding infantry on a 4+, and MCs on a 5+ would probably work better.

Random idea, just thought I'd pen it down so to speak.

Warp Lotus. 80 points. Fast Attack.
Front armour 12, side armour 12, rear armour 10.
Special rules: Tank, Fast, Skimmer, Warp Node, Distortion Field.
Weapons: None.

The Warp Lotus is a fast assault support vehicle for the Eldar. Sacrificing all armaments for a mobile stable warp entry point, the Warp Lotus is capable of bringing in any Eldar units from a very long distance. The Warp Lotus is a master piece of force manipulating energies, featuring some of the most sophisticated Eldar technology.

Distortion Field: Any model which is unable to escape from the Warp Lotus' tank shock automatically suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, or in case of a vehicle suffers a penetrating hit. This damage is resolved before normal tank shock damage or death or glory, and if the target is destroyed the Warp Lotus will carry on moving until it reaches a new target or has moved it's full distance.
Warp Node: Any unit entering from reserves may choose to enter via the Warp Node. When entering through the Warp Node, treat the arriving unit as deep striking to a point within 6" from the Warp Lotus, but do not roll scatter. The Warp Node is not able to bring in units with structure points or flyers.

Upgrades
Standard Eldar tank upgrades.
Force Prow (5 points): When tank shocking, treat the tank's front armour as having an Armour Value of 14 for all purposes.

Model
I imagine the Warp Lotus to look something like a Falcon with it's troop compartment and turret removed, and it's "wings" twisted roughly 60° so that the inside of the vehicle forms something of a tunnel. Sort of like a warp gate from EVE: Online (one of the Amarr kind)

I think we have plenty of units to work on before introducing new ones, but certainly a system of some kind which helps with DS is probably needed.

I also thought that all eldar vehicles should be able to deepstrike default, as they can, you know, fly. Or, i saw it as a suggestion either here or elsewhere, vectored engines become an upgrade allowing deepstrike.

Interesting thing with the Warp Lotus and I agree that the Eldar need an assault vehicle, but maybe something similar to the Venom instead of a weird teleporter thing, it reminds me too much of a Monolith

Like I wrote, it's a random idea. Probably something that's only about as serious as a forge world kind of item, not a codex kind of item. Oh, and it doesn't allow you to assault the turn you deep strike.

Gwydion, yes I know I've written that a few times and I've seen others do it, too. It'd be a rather cheap upgrade going by Dark Eldar standards as well.
I'm mostly trying to facilitate a synergy between units at the same time as promoting non-mechanization.

loota boy wrote:Interesting thing with the Warp Lotus and I agree that the Eldar need an assault vehicle, but maybe something similar to the Venom instead of a weird teleporter thing, it reminds me too much of a Monolith

I tend to prefer the ideal of an exarch power allowing the unit to treat a vehicle as an assault vehicle because it helps each eldar army be more clearly defined.

I like the warp lotus concept for a forge world style list, but for all craftworlders it doesn't feel right, Also I think its undercosted for what its capable of doing.

edit: what slot on the force org would it take up, as a heavy I could see it being more balanced because of what your giving up for it.

It's fast attack the way I designed it. It's also quite fragile unless you stack holo-fields and more on it, so it will reach a point where it is no longer a very effective unit.

The distort field may be a bit much for a unit that's mostly designed to just bring in troops, but I also felt that unless a certain amount of power was implemented you'd just look at wasted FOCs.
80 points is a bit low, though, all things considered somewhere in the 110 region I recon, simply because you can't really upgrade it with weapons any further.
Could use a further limitation not to allow tanks, or even vehicles, from porting in near it. "Smaller units" and all that so to speak - letting the larger vehicles deep strike of their own motor.

The ideal is not to discount or punish a unit because it is a certain type of FOC or not, except Troop which is scoring, but rather to fill a certain type of slot with as near equally delicious units as possible.

But enough of the Lotus.

Swooping Hawks.

What about Lasblasters being r24" S6 Ap2 Assault 1 Lance? Swooping Hawks losing the grenade pack, and having a cost of around 20 points per model.
Exarch Sun Rifle r24" S6 Ap1 Assault 1 Lance Melta.
Exarch Hawk Talon r24" S4 Ap2 Assault 3 Pinning.
Baharroth would have a rifle that's r24" S6 Ap1 Assault 2 Lance.
Skyleap = Turbo-boost
Intercept = Some sort of anti-deep strike power. Say free round of shooting on anything that's attempting to drop near the Hawks prior to the unit landing.

I think if the strength of lasblasters was that high you'd have to restrict the range, they would be amazing at killing MCs.

If you were gonna make them ap 2 weapons I would probably lower the str to 5, and then give them meltabombs instead of haywires for assaulting vehicles.

It's S6 simply so the lance can glance AV12+. Hashing over them in the shower (best place for thinking) their weapons and stats would probably land them much closer to 25 points with those stats and that range.
Reducing the blasters to mini-lances, and giving them a range of 18 would be a middle path and also gives the intercept exarch ability a more manageable range as well.
Warp Spiders have no armour piercing but have two shots at 12" with a retreat warp. At 22 points they have proven to be close, but still overly expensive. The breaking point where Swooping Hawks would be better is when shooting at armour 3+ or better or vehicles with AV13 or better.

Essentially this differentiation leads to the spiders being better for harassment, dealing with infantry in cover, or light infantry caught in the open. Spiders would also be better at making sure ATSKNF models keep running.
With the Hawk exarch ability, they get the role of keeping watch against drop-pods and terminators for armies that spend most of it's time on their own legs, while Turbo-boost would allow them to rapidly re-deploy and get cover doing so as well.

The last concern would be their interaction or competition with Shining Spears, which essentially need to get close to do their job and cost more.
Shining Spears is one of those units that needs a lot of work, but suffice to say they do the job of annihilating Termies and MCs better, but have to present their shiny arse for a whooping so need to be used more carefully.
Here is a case of 1-shot at range versus 2-shots at melee with the same stats. Spears also get a round of low-power shooting before assaulting.

Gorechild wrote:Right, a quick rundown of what we've covered so far and what is still left to sort out (updated 21/3/11):

HQ:
Autarch - Done
Farseer/SeerCouncil - Done
Avatar - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Hoec - Done
Eldrad - Not covered
Iyana - Done
Biel Tan guy - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Nahadu (sp?) - Done

Troop:
Dire Avengers - Done
Guardians - Done
Rangers - Done
Jetbikes - Done

Elite:
Howling Banshees - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Striking Scorpions - Not covered
Fire Dragons - Done
Harlequins - Done?
Wraithguard - Done

Fast Attack:
Warp Spiders - Done
Swooping Hawks - Discussed but no real conculsion made
Shining Spears - Done
Vypers - Done

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers - Done?
Wraithlords - Not covered
Fire Prism/Night Spinner - Done
War Walker - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Dedicated Transports:
Wave Serpent - Done
Falcon - Discussed but no real conculsion made

Updated first post to cover changes to DA's and guardians.

--------------------

Can one of you write up a full suggestion for the Hawks? I'm lost in all the suggestions atm

Quoting myself:

Swooping hawks:

Some things that I think won't work, or I think should be avoided:

dropping grenades over any enemy unit it flies over - this won't work, unless the hawk squad can move 36" in a turn, and here is why: Assault range is default 12". If the hawks can move 24", in order to "fly over" an enemy unit which is ZERO inches wide, they must start, or end, their turn in assault range, or rapid fire range, of an enemy unit. For an expensive fragile jump troop, this means a bunch of dead hawks.

Skyleap remaining in the current schema (allowing re-deployment) - any rule which is designed to keep a unit off the table as much as possible should be avoided, in my opinion.

Deep-strike grenade drop - its gimmicky and poorly designed. This, combined with sky leap, makes the hawks a really gimmicky unit.

I feel hawks should be completely redesigned.


Statline: Aspect Warrior standard, 'medium' armor save (on par with banshees, DAs, etc)

Special Rules:
All normal eldar army-wide rules, and fleet
Masters of the Skies: On any turn in which the hawk unit moved, cover saves may not be taken against wounds inflicted by the hawk squad in the shooting phase.

Wargear:
Swooping Hawk Wings, Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack, Lasblaster


Swooping Hawk Wings: Swooping Hawks are Jump Infantry, and have the Hit and Run USR
Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack: Swooping hawks have assault, defensive, krak, and haywire grenades
Haywire grenades: 1: shaken 2-4: glance 5-6:pen

Lasblaster:
Several profiles I could see working:
S4 Ap5 R24" Assault 2
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 3
S3 Ap6 R24" Assault 4

Exarch:
Sunrifle
Hawks Talon


Powers:
Intercept: The hawks never need worse than a 3+ to hit any vehicle. In any turn in which they assaulted a vehicle, they may always utilize their hit and run USR at the end of the assault phase (this allows them to attack and destroy a vehicle/transport, and still get away from reprisals, which is one of their major weaknesses currently).
Skyleap: The hawks have the 'Turboboost' USR.
Aerial Assault (many points): At the start of the assault phase, the hawk unit may make a leadership check, if passed, all swooping hawks in the unit may use their normal number of attacks when attacking with grenades.

So, very simply, the hawks role is supporting anti-infantry fire, and anti-vehicle. I've buffed their movement, and buffed their ranged shooting. I've buffed haywire grenades, and given hawks a mechanism of escape from the aftermath of vehicular combat.

DAaddict wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorechild wrote:
With your suggestion I cant see why anyone would choose a starcannon over a pulse laser (unless it was significanly cheaper).

Pulse lasers are only on Falcons and Hornets anyway, so that's a non-issue.

Not explained. This is compilation from the last posting. It was suggested to replace the bright lance with pulse laser as the platform weapon choice. With WS 3 on guardians, I agree this would actually be more useful.

Costs: We had discussed something like Free Shuriken Cannon then going up from there. Something like +5 Scatterlaser, +10 EML or Starcannon, +15 Brightlance and/or Pulse Laser.

I agree the pulse laser would be better suited to BS 3 troops. On that note I would like to see the Starcannon restored to ROF 3 otherwise there is no reason to take it vs a pulse laser.
On that I would like to see the platform costs : Shuriken Cannon Free, SL +5, EML +10, Starcannon, Brightlance(Pulse Laser) +15.

As far as Swooping hawks - how about a total change of mission and an effort to get rid of the grenade pack drop.

Haywire Grenade/Frag Grenade Launcher - 18" A1 0r 18" A1 Blast S3 AP6

Change the exarch abilities to.

Skyleap: By the nature of hawks, they consider themselves to be 12" above the point of the model as far as LOS. Therefore it is very difficult for an enemy to gain a cover save from a hawk.

Other ability: Do to their erratic flight hawks get a 5+ invulnerable save.

The blast template preserves their GEQ nature and the haywire grenade launcher gives them a standoff anti-vehicle attack. Of couse the trade off is the loss of the 24" range A2 lasblaster and the drop in grenade attacks.

The only problem I have with that gun for hawks is the resolution of 10 small blasts - it would just take a lot of time.

Right, after an hour or so of going back throught this and the MKI thread, I've compiled everything that I think is pretty much complete and vaguely agreed on. Other things were: Keep rangers the same but lower their cost by a point or two, keep fire dragons the same, keep prisms the same, re word the night spinner rule (but leave the rest the same), Keep reapers the same (just lower the cost and maybe add S+P). These are the other changes/additions:

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for +10 points.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, one heavy weapon platform per unit may be replaced with a support weapon: D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Any heavy weapon mounted on a platform can fire even if it moved in the movement phase, A support weapon may not fire if the unit has moved this turn. Any unit that includes a heavy weapon platform may not enter a transport

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 4 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S5 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 5 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength, rather than the usual 50%.

Shining Spears - 90 points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---5--3-3(4)-6-2-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
2 Shining Spears, 1 Shining Spears Exarch

Wargear:
Star Lance
Shuriken Pistol
Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules:
Hit and Run

Options:
Up to 2 additional Shining Spears may be purchased for 30 points each
One Shining Spear may upgrade to an Exarch for 12 points
The Exarch may upgrade his Star Lance to a Sun Lance for 8 points
The Exarch ay purchase a Shimmershield for 15 points

Exarch Powers:
Masters of the Charge - A unit with "Masters of the Charge" may assault 12" rather than the normal 6" - 20 points
Master Riders - The whole unit have the skilled rider USR and count as having plasma grenades - 5 points

Star Lance - A Star Lance is a two handed weapon that doubles the wielders strength and ignores armour saves on the turn they charge, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S4 AP2
Sun Lance - A Sun lance is a two handed weapon that increases the weilders strength to 8 and ignores armour saves, They can also discharge a short range blast with the folowing profile Range 6" S5 AP2

Araenion wrote:
Warp Spiders - 115 points
BS4 WS4 S3 T3 I5 A1 W1 Ld9 Sv3+

Unit type:
Jump infantry

Unit Size:
4 Warp Spiders + 1 Exarch


Wargear:
Warp jump generator
Death Spinner:
Range: 18" S4 AP6 Assault 3


Special Rules:
A unit equiped with a warp jump generator may make a 6" jump in the assault phase, they may choose to increase the distance of this jump by D6", but if a 1 is rolled one model in the squad is lost in the warp and removed as a casualty before moving the extra inch. This move may be used even if the unit is not in a position to assault.

The death spinner releases a barrage of shots of monofilament wires that covers the enemy, impairing movement and cutting through their flesh and bone should they move. Any squad hit with a Death Spinner is treated as if being in difficult terrain the next time it moves, every model in the squad must also roll a D6 - if a 1 is rolled they suffer a wound with no saves of any kind allowed.


Up to 5 additional Warp Spiders may be added for + 20 points each

Exarch wargear options:
The Exarch may purchase an addition Death Spinner for +5 points (fired as 1 assault 6 weapon) or may exchange it for a Spinneret Rifle. A Spinneret Rifle is a sronger version of the Death Spinner that is S5 and has Rending USR for +10 points; additionally, the exarch may be equiped with a pair of poisoned blades that provide an extra attack, wound on 4+ and have Rending USR for +10 points.

Exarch Powers:
Withdraw for 15 points, provides the unit with Hit&Run USR
Suprise assault for 10 points, when the Exarch's squad Deep Strikes from reserve, they scatter d6" instead of the usual 2d6"

Vypers - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
4---4--3-5-5-1-2--9--3+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Vypers

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult
Shuriken Cannon

Special Rules:
Scout

Upgrades:
Up to two additional Vypers may be purchased for +XX points each
Any Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult may be upgraded to a Shuriken Cannon for +5 points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Scatter Lasers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Star Cannon for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Eldar Missile Lanchers for +XX points each
Any Shuriken Cannon may be upgraded to Bright Lance for +XX points each

Guardian Jetbikes - XXX points

BS WS S T I A W Ld Sv
3---3--3-4-5-1-1--8--4+

Unit type:
Jetbike

Unit Size:
3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock on Jetbike

Wargear:
Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult

Options:
Up to 6 additional Jetbikes may be purchased for XX points each
The Warlock may take any of the Warlock powers from the Warlock entry
1 Guardian Jetbike in every 3 may upgrade its Twin Linked Shuriken Catapult to a Shuriken Cannon for XX points

Gorechild wrote:Nuadhu 'Fireheart', Wild Rider of Saim Hann - XXX points

WS: 6 BS: 6 S: 3(6) T: 5 I: 6 A: 4 W: 3 Ld: 10 Sv: 3+


Unit Type:
Independant Character
Jetbike

Wargear:
Alean
Holofields
Shuriken Cannon
Spear of Wind

Special Rules:
Hit and Run
Furious Charge
Brotherhood of the Wind

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spear of Wind - Ignores armour, double strength in CC (already included in profile)
Holofields - 4+ inv save
Alean - A special Vyper that is riden as a jetbike, confers +2 toughness and a 3+ armour save (included in profile)
Reckless - Nuadhu confers all of his USR's to any unit that he is joined to.
Brotherhood of the Wind - The wild riders of Saim Han are masters of the eldar jetbike, perfectly equipt to take on any foe from the back of their wraithbone steeds. For every 3 models in a unit of Guardian jetbikes in an army with Nuadhu, 1 may upgrade their shuriken catapult with a fusion gun or flamer for +6 points, as well as the normal shuriken cannon upgrade option
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hoec - XXX points

-BS-WS-S--T--I---A-W--Ld--Sv
--8--5---3--3--6--2--3--10--3+

Unit Type
Independant Character

Wargear:
Silence
Defensive Grenades

Special Rules:
Less Than a Shadow
Mentor of Guile

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Silence- Range 48" S8 AP1 Heavy 1 Pinning or Range 48" S5 AP3 Assault 3 Pinning

Less Than a Shadow- Hoec and any unit he joins have all cover saves improved by 2 (4+ becomes 2+ ect) In addition, Hoec has a 4+ invunerable save against any wounds inflicted by a weapon that ignores cover.

Mentor of Guile- Every ranger long rifle in an army that includes Hoec changes its type from "Heavy 1" to "Assault 1"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Iyanna Arienal, Spiritseer of Iyanden.

Iyanna---5 5 3 3 2 5 2 10 -

Special Rules:
Spiritseer of Iyanden: All Wraithguard units in an army that includes Iyanna count as troops, while Iyanna is alive no unit in your army needs to test for wraithsight.
Iyanna has access to all Warlock powers and may use up to two per turn.

Wargear:
Spear of Teuthlas: Follows the rules for a singing spear, except it is S10 against targets with an AV and ignores armour saves. In addition it has a range of 18"
Armour of Vaul: This armour confers a 4+ invulnerable save to Iyanna, in addition its radiating effects confer a 5+ invulnerable save to her unit.

WRAITHGUARD - 165
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
4 4 5 4(6) 2 4 2 10 3+
SQUAD
The unit consists of 4 wraithguard and 1 warlock (165 points), upto 4 more wraithguard may be chosen for +35 points each.

SPECIAL RULES
Infantry.
Fearless: Wraithguard are not living creatures and are therefore not affected by emotions such as dread and urges of self-preservation. They are Fearless, and confer this ability to any characters joining them.
Wraithsight: Wraithguard do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits that makes them slower to react to changes on the battlefield. At the start of their turn, roll a D6 for each Wraithguard unit that is not within 6” of a friendly psyker. On a roll of a 1, the Wraithguard is inactive until the end of their turn. Inactive models may not move, shoot, assault or attack in close combat, and are hit automatically in close combat.
Wraithbone: Wraithguard are not truly alive and their form is made up of dense layers of wraithbone. There are no weak points to exploit and ‘mortal’ wounds can easily be shrugged off. Any attacks that would wound on a guaranteed roll (such as witchblade attacks, poisoned weapons or sniper rifles) will require a roll of a 6+ to wound, They also have the Feel No Pain special rule
Relentless: Wraithguard have the USR: Relentless

WARGEAR
Wraithcannon: The wraithcannon works by opening up small Warp space/real space holes, tearing apart the target as it is ripped between dimensions. The wraithcannon always wounds on a roll of 2+ and a roll to wound of a 6 inflicts instant death to the victim (regardless of its Toughness value). Against targets with an Armour Value a wraithcannon always inflicts a glancing hit on a roll of 3 or 4 and a penetrating hit on a roll of 5 or 6. It has the following profile:
Range: 18” S: X AP: 2 Rapid Fire

Gwyidion wrote:
Wraithlord - xxx points

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 10 8 3 3 3 10 2+

Unit Type
Monstrous Creature

Special Rules
Fearless
Wraithsight
Wraithbone

Wargear:
two wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults
wraithsword

The wrist mounted twin-linked shuriken catapults may be replaced with:
2 flamers (for free), 2 Heavy Flamers (for XX pts) or 2 Wraithcannons (for XX pts)

The wraithsword may be replaced with:
Shuriken Cannon (for free), Star Cannon (for XX pts), Scatter Laser (for XX pts), Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

They may also take:
A second wraithsword (+1A) (for XX pts), a Shuriken Cannon (for XX pts), a Star Cannon (for XX pts) a Scatter Laser (for XX pts) an Eldar Missile Launcher (for XX pts) or a Bright Lance (for XX pts)

Alternativly, all non-wrist mounted weapons may be replaced with:
A Pulse Laser (for XX pts), a D-Cannon (for XX pts), a Shadow Weaver (for XX pts) or a Vibrocannon (for XX pts)

I'm getting ready to basically just copy/paste all this into the fandex, so we can post it and get some C+C for the whole thing. We just need a final solution for Hawks, a few tweeks for the CC elites and a wraithlord entry and I think were nearly there.

I always found the Star Lance versus Sun Lance to be oddly worded. One provides double strength and the other provides a set strength.

Here's a bit of constructive input:

Defenders
I'm still a bit iffy about having a huge unit accompany a single support weapon. Artillery can't move and shoot, so having all that manpower will just discourage you from purchasing the support weapons, when we want to encourage it.

Aspect Warrior - what if it altered when morale tests are taken to lower levels. 50% casualties and 25% remaining instead of 25% casualties and 50% remaining?

Dire Avengers
I'm curious, why are we increasing maximum and minimum squad size?

Guardian Jetbikes
With smaller Guardian squads, it feels odd having jetbikes' maximum squad size the same size. Maybe limit it to add up to 3 extra only?

Warp Spiders - 115 points.
4 Spiders, 1 Exarch

Shining Spears
I'd be careful here! They just got +1 attack and +1 wound. Lances are single-handed, you see, and as such compatible with pistols.

Hoec
Would it not be sufficient to give him Master Stealth, as this confers to squad?

Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

Horray this is exactly the sort of feed back I wanted

Mahtamori wrote:
Defenders
I'm still a bit iffy about having a huge unit accompany a single support weapon. Artillery can't move and shoot, so having all that manpower will just discourage you from purchasing the support weapons, when we want to encourage it.

How would you suggest we do it then? Just allow each gun to be upgraded to a support weapon? or say 1 per squad, but you dont need a full squad to take one?

Mahtamori wrote:
Aspect Warrior - what if it altered when morale tests are taken to lower levels. 50% casualties and 25% remaining instead of 25% casualties and 50% remaining?

That could work, The only reason I put it as I did was because of a game I played where a 20 man unit had taken 50% casualties and ended up falling back straight past a full 10 man unit and it made me realise how stupid it was

Mahtamori wrote:
Dire Avengers
I'm curious, why are we increasing maximum and minimum squad size?

Whoops, I didnt meant to increase the minimum. I just increased the max so that they would be capable of filling out a WS.

Mahtamori wrote:
Guardian Jetbikes
With smaller Guardian squads, it feels odd having jetbikes' maximum squad size the same size. Maybe limit it to add up to 3 extra only?

Could do, so they'd be allowed 6 bikes (2 with cannons) and a jetlock? Doesnt seem too bad to me.

Mahtamori wrote:
Shining Spears
I'd be careful here! They just got +1 attack and +1 wound. Lances are single-handed, you see, and as such compatible with pistols.

Good catch, I was meaning for them to be two handed, so they only get to use the pistol + ccw if they stay locked in combat.

Mahtamori wrote:
Hoec
Would it not be sufficient to give him Master Stealth, as this confers to squad?

To give a +1 to cover saves? the only reason I went for the 2+ is that pathfinders get 2+ anyway.

Mahtamori wrote:
Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

A Farseer I believe, I'm not 100% with her fluff either.

I'll update my last post to sort some of these out

For support weapons, I'd say "One platform per squad".

Lowering the thresholds for moral is actually a good idea, considering Eldar are desperate, without resorting to all out immunity to morale.

I think the Wave Serpents are size 12 so that you can take a max squad of Aspect Warriors + the 2 HQ choices.

Stealth confers +1, Master Stealth provides +2

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Iyanna
Missing psychic powers on her. I haven't read her lore, is she a Warlock or a Farseer (ish)?

A Farseer I believe, I'm not 100% with her fluff either.

I'll update my last post to sort some of these out

Iyanna Arienal is a Spiritseer from Iyanden. She was actually the first spiritseer available to Eldar.

Check out the last paragraph of page 20 of the 4th ed Eldar codex for some fluff on her.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More info on Iyanna:

Her stats from 3rd ed were: 75 pts, 4WS, 4BS, 3S, 3T, 2W, 4I, 1A, 9Ld, Special Save

She had the 12" wraithsight rule (first time appearing), she had both Enhance and Destructor, she had a special staff that was a Singing Spear with 18" range, and her save was an invul save that was an unmodified leadership test.

Mahtamori wrote:For support weapons, I'd say "One platform per squad".

Lowering the thresholds for moral is actually a good idea, considering Eldar are desperate, without resorting to all out immunity to morale.

I think the Wave Serpents are size 12 so that you can take a max squad of Aspect Warriors + the 2 HQ choices.

Stealth confers +1, Master Stealth provides +2

How would you word the "Aspect Warrior" rule then?

Yeah, but being able to take 12 DA's regardless would help stand them out from guardians more.

So how about "Any unit that is joined by Hoec has their cover saves improved by 2 (4+ cover is improved to 2+), whilst out of cover they get a 4+ coversave as well"?

Gorechild wrote:
How would you word the "Aspect Warrior" rule then?

Perhaps that they always have the ability to regroup, regardless of remaining number?

Some other small things I noticed (might sound a bit unnecessary, but still): I don't like the name sun lance, at least not as name for the exarch weapon, as that should be named after asuryans weapon (so the exarch should have the star lance).
Also, did we really agree to make the Spiders weapons poisoned? Then the night spinners weapon would need to be that too, right? I'm not very fond of that idea, actually...
Iyannas armour was really funny ruled, as Grakmar mentioned: her save was to make a leadership test - if she made it, she passed her invulnerable save. I would really like to have that rule on her, though it would probably require that she had Ld 9 instead of 10.

Saintspirit wrote:
Also, did we really agree to make the Spiders weapons poisoned? Then the night spinners weapon would need to be that too, right? I'm not very fond of that idea, actually....

Good spot I must have copied an entry that wasn't the most recent one (I was in a rush so didn't read through everything that thoroughly). I've amended it now

I think, for wraithguard, the changes are mostly good, except for a few -

Well actually, what doe runes of the undying do?

I'm not sure i'm a fan of T4(6). I understand why it is there, but I think it should be a natural T6. They aren't customizable, there is no risk of wound-allocation shenanigans.

8 max - 2 wraithguard is really a big deal? 10 is a nice and round number...

Rapid fire, relentless 18" range is a good compromise. It means they actually can reach out to 24", which is a nice buff, and it makes them even more deadly inside 12", which is another nice buff.

I feel like T4(6)'s main problem is thunderhammers in CC. We're not going to give them a 2+ save or a invuln save, because that would be silly-powerful in a book with fortune. I think making them immune to S8-based ID is a necessity. Even if you make it T5(6), that would be sufficient.

Vypers:
I know this was discussed back in the vyper discussion, but I feel like T4(5), 2W is better. It makes them very vehicle-like, in that a S8 weapon puts them down, but small arms fire might only do one wound. In order to avoid wound shenanigans, you could require all the vypers to be equipped with the same weapons, making them identical in game terms.

Spiders:
Certainly mobile, but their gun seems sort of... meh. I don't know how to solve this.

Shining Spears:
How do you solve the problem of the 2nd round of combat? Either the spears endure another round with S3 no power weapons, or they hit-and-run and risk being rapid fire'd to death. I still support making the spears just like executioners (+2 S 2h PW CCWs)

DA:
Still against falcons as DT. Whats to stop min-squad DAs serving as scoring upgrades for 6 falcon gunboats?

Guardians:
I like, but I still think that exploring the platforms precluding taking a WS as a transport (so, requiring the Guardians to be storm guardians to take a transport) is a good idea.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraithlords:

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 5 10 8 3 3 3 10 2+

Right off the bat, you can see a pretty big buff. Unless I'm mistaken, the dreadknight is:
5 5 6 6 4W 4 3A 10 2+/5++, 130 pts naked

Characteristic of my new Wraithlord statline:
It stays just as tough, but, with a 2+, it now shrugs off those missle hits that were such a big problem. It becomes much more durable, and requires the dedication of true anti-tank weapons to down. MLs won't cut it anymore - lascannons and plasma weapons are the only recourse (and melta).

three attacks - not so much of a klutz in close combat. Opponents can totally throw termies at a 'Lord if they want, but they're going to take losses.

Special Rules (borrowing from above):
Monstrous Creature
Fearless
Wraithsight
Wraithbone

Wargear:
two wrist-mounted TL shuriken catapults
wraithsword (rerolls in CC)

Wargear options:
May replace his TL Shuriken Cat's with:
2 flamers (free)
2 Heavy Flamers (+Xpts)
2 Wraithcannons (+4X pts)

May replace his wraithsword with:
Shuriken Cannon
Star Cannon
Scatter Laser
EML
Bright Lance

May additionally take:
A second wraithsword (+1A)
Shuriken Cannon
Star Cannon
Scatter Laser
EML
Bright Lance
(all repeats are at the same price)

May forfeit both weapon options to take one of the following:
Pulse Laser
D-Cannon
Shadow Weaver
Vibrocannon



I should have added this in my previous post:
I think wraithsight should have some benefits, as well as some drawbacks:
Wraithsight: Wraithguard and Wraithlords do not see the world as mortals do, but instead witness an ever-shifting image of spirits ... (etc etc). As they perceive the world in a different way than normal individuals, they are also unaffected by the following rules, and pieces of wargear: Disruption Pods, Smoke Launchers, Night Fighting, Veil of Tears, (etc etc)

Warp Spiders
I don't think the Warp Spiders actually need all that much. A bit more reliable second-warp and a bit more cost-effective. It's already a pretty unique and useful unit, specifically great for "escorting" fleeing units and harassing the rear-hatch of transports.

I'd settle for 20 points per model and changing Surprise Assault into Warp Crawler (re-roll the second jump)

Wraithguard
With Wound 2 Wraithguard, a lower toughness value with secondary to-wound toughness value to ensure vulnerability to instant death is necessary to keep costs reigned in. Additionally, in that case I'd argue for reduced unit size (3-6 plus Warlock), but I personally dislike parenthesis values "just because".

The way I see it either a point drop to 25-30 points, or have their innate attacks be power weapons.

Iyanna should make them troop choice, in my opinion, not Spiritseers (which, honestly, is the Spiritseer's only use - bloody useless upgrade)

DAVU
However you put it, Eldar have tanks as dedicated transports, so DAVU will exist. Or GAVU. If you take a Falcon as it currently is, the Wave Serpent is actually a more versatile gunboat than the Falcon (hits better, and doesn't need to stand still to make up for it.)

I see Falcon as a Razorback to the Wave Serpent Rhino.

Wraithlord as support platforms
This is an interesting idea, once you scrap all weapons except the flamers (no one in their right mind would take catapults even with the upgrade).

I do think the Wraithsword should not add re-roll, but straight up +1A from the beginning, though.

The problem with T8 is that it's bloody strong, and it's the T6 that puts the Power Armoured Power Armour down in points.

I would personally rather suggest this: keep the Wraithlord within reasonable potency that taking them in squads isn't far-fetched.

My problem with T4(6) is that it makes them critically vulnerable to the most common elite close combat unit in 40k: the TH/SS terminator. If we give them such a glaring achilles heel, they still won't be very good.

Even with natural T6, they still get no save at all vs power weapons or rending. The only thing that protects them is the proposed 2w. Making them T4(6) means they get zero upgrade in durability from codex to codex against thunderhammers in CC. As it is now, Dire Avengers are better against TH/SS termies than wraithguard.

And falcons, if we make them true gunboats and give them DT and give them a price decrease... I'm fine with them having transport capacity and HS, but a DT means you can take 6 of them for troops. Thats way awesome.

Updated my big post....

@Gwyidion - Wraithguard being bad in assault its fair, if they didn't have a weakness would be really harsh, seeing as they are so insanely durable against everything else.

I'll copy up your Wraithlord suggestion and add it to the big post