Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I despise rapid fire for any Eldar weapon. I also feel that it is a slap in the face to guardians, who are currently, and without over-exaggeration, a joke, specifically for their weapon. (short range dying race meme, anyone?)

The only problem I have with Oriallis' solution is that it falls into the path of "rending" as the solution of so many problems.

Alternatively, a solution could be

S. cats: S4 AP5 Assault2 R18"

A. S. Cats: S5 Ap4 Assault 2 R18"


Thinking on that suggestion, I like it, because it removes some dependence of Dire Avengers on Farseer's doom.

I like the schema in Gore's post. Except for two changes I would make - Regular guardian platform weaposn are still classed as 'assault' weapons, due to the grav platform, but the heavy support weapons are move-or-fire. The other change is that platforms of any kind prohibit the use of a transport. Keep Troops toting S. cats as the realm of DAs.

Also, I'm sure it goes without saying that the heavy support platforms will be fixed/upgraded.

The problem with S5 catapults is that it wrecks them as defensive weapons. Let's just throw this one out there:
Range 12" S4 Ap5 Assault 3
Naturally, it goes without saying that with this weapon profile on relatively cheap troops, armour save of 5+ is kept and so is the basic profile.
The only problem I see with this solution is how to treat Dire Avengers with Blade Storm. Granted, Blade Storm could still provide +1 shot, but it feels both over the top at the same time as punishing a bit too much on the non-firing round.
There are, of course, other possible powers for them, but still...

Actually, that wouldn't wreck them as defensive weapons as only the Avenger cats would be S5; the normal catapults would still be S4 Ap5 but with 18" range.

Frankly there are so many possibilities with the shuriken catapults I have no idea what to make them into. The one i like personally is to keep them as is, but give defenders additional platforms (which should be kept as assault weapons).

Of course. +1S on Avengers. I'm actually proud I kept my post so much to the point considering the amount of whiskey.

I think that the reference in Gwydion's post to heavy weapons are support weapons. They follow the rules for artillery more or less, although I do think that Eldar should be able to run when they tug these beasts along.

Support Platform - through clever and sophisticated use of anti-gravity technology, these relatively compact platforms are able to bear the weight of the dense and oft gravitationally unstable massive weapons.
A support platform follows all the rules for artillery, but the unit is fully capable of running when crewing an Eldar Support Platform.

Ok, so is this is how the Guardian entry would be then? because frankly, I feel it would be good if we could become finished with guardians.
Guardian Defender squad: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians (as now)

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 shuriken cannon weapon platform. A heavy weapon mounted on a weapon platform count as an assault weapon in all respects.

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear: Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Ap5 Assault 2 (While Avenger Shuriken Catapult is the same but S5)

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another shuriken cannon weapons platform may be taken for free.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: star cannon +20 pts, scatter laser +10 pts, bright lance +25 pts, Eldar missile launcher +15 pts.
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 weapon platforms, they may both be replaced with a single support platform: D-Cannon +25 pts, vibro cannon +15 pts or doomweaver +20 pts.
A support platform follows all the rules for artillery, with the exception that the unit is capable of running when crewing an Eldar Support Platform.
May take a Wave Serpent dedicated transport, unless including a support platform.

That sounds pretty good, actually.

I do think Warlocks should be LD9, at least, though. They are psychers, after all, and quite experienced and dedicated.

Oh, and we still need to take a good look at Star Cannons. Compared to Scatter Laser, it's only better if it is able to bring you more than 50% worsened chance on the saving dice - meaning that against MEQ or lighter in cover it's worse, and against vehicles it's decidedly worse.
It is really only good against TEQ and MCs compared with the Scatter Laser at the moment. If it was upped to 3 shots, it'd only need to worsen the save ratio by 25% comparably to be worth it, meaning it'd be better against:
* Armour saves of 5+ or better outside of cover.
* TEQ, all kinds.
* Nearly all MCs.
* MEQ in cover (by 11.1%).
The scatter laser would be better against:
* Vehicles
* 6+ save outside cover
* Any unit where the cover save matches or is better than armour save

If, on the other hand, Star Cannon strength and armour piercing was improved by one point each, the calculation becomes significantly more difficult. It'd gain the upper hand against certain vehicles and most MCs, while the situation against MEQ remains unchanged.
Taking this route I think the Star Cannon would only reach a breaking point when it started treading on Missile Launcher territory (S8 Ap1 or Ap2), at which point the missile launcher's saving grace would be the plasma missile option to work against hordes as well.

I do not really see the Star Cannon having cover-negation, as that would make it a supreme choice against almost everything except vehicles.

The way I see it: Low-AP Shuriken Cannon or double-tap low-AP Krak Missile.

Or what if we followed the fluff and made star cannons as good as they are supposed to be, i.e. as good as plasma cannons?

Mahtamori wrote:
* Haywire Grenades treat Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes! as Vehicle Destroyed - Wrecked.
* All models are Fleet, including Walkers and Wraiths.
Wave Serpent
* This unit is an assault vehicle. Models transported inside count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle for purposes of assault.
Falcon
* This unit has a carry capacity of 12
* This unit may also select a Falcon as dedicated transport

Harlequin Troupe
* This unit may also select Falcon and Wave Serpent as dedicated transport

Striking Scorpions
* This unit has Fleet

Wraithguard
* This unit count as having Power Fists in close combat.

Guardian Defenders.
* Guardian Defenders have BS4
* For every 5 Guardian Storm in the unit, two members must will crew one heavy weapon platform at the point cost of the weapon.
* One weapon platform may be upgraded to a Support Weapon Platform at the point cost of the weapon.

Guardian Storm
* Guardian Storm have WS4

Rangers
* This unit has a cost of 22
* This unit has all the benefits of Pathfinders by default.
* This unit may not be upgraded to Pathfinders.

War Walker
* This unit is now Fast Attack rather than Heavy Support
* This unit has Fleet

Few things, mainly based on the recent DE codex
Haywire grenades, sounds like a great change but I dont see why only Eldar haywire grenades would do this. If they wanted to change them, wouldnt they have done it for DE as well.

Why should wraithguard and warwalkers have fleet, when Talos and Cronos do not?

Wave Serpents are rather nice transports, shame they are not assault vehicles. I feel that the added power of being an assault vehicle would add a lot of points so I think it should be a vehicle upgrade rather than something given by default.

Falcon: look at the models, the wave serpent is bigger than the falcon. IMHO the falcon should stay as 6man transports
Also the Falcon packs a lot of firepower, I dont feel they should be dedicated transports.

Harlequins: If DE cant give them a dedicated transport why should Eldar? Its annoying both ways but perhaps GW feels they should fight on their feet.

DE Incubi got fleet, I am certain scorpions will too in the next dex as they share the same lineage.

Wraithguaird: Powerfists completely change their dynamic by making them much better in CC. IMHO a powerfist would make them OP at 35pts per model. Would you rather have a T4 2+ terminator or a T6 3+ wraithguard who has a better gun and costs less points.

Guardians:
I dont know if I liked them getting BS4. I dont see why they should be better at hitting things than guardsmen. They are just part time soldiers.
Heavy weapon platforms per 5 models is too much. 1 per 10 is in line with other armies troop choices.
Storms:
Again I dont see why they should be WS4, the same as DE wyches, Ork Nobs, and Khorne Bezerkers who live their entire considerably long lives for close combat and practice every day.

Rangers:
**EDIT** I miss read. I think that the rules they have should be simplified, perhaps make them rend on a 5 and 6 and get rid of the AP1 on rolling to hit.

Warwalkers:
I dont think these should be fast attack. They are not fast and they can have way too many heavy weapons. They are not IG sentinels.

Here is the bottom line.

If each eldar codex needs to be respectful of the statlines of common units and wargear in the other codex (DE of CWE, and CWE of DE), there is going to be a serious problem of stagnancy in unit statlines, as statlines can't change in one book without "showing up" or "being unfair" to the other codex.

We can't consider the statlines and wargear in the DE codex in our proposed changes to the CWE codex, except in thematic, fluff, or game-balance decisions. If we did consider the DE codex, we are going to hamstring BOTH codexes for the forseeable future.

Before we move on from Guardians - lets try to not conflate decisions too much. Changing warlocks for the purpose of Guardians (and here again we come full circle) is dangerous without considering the Seer Council. Likewise, changing the star cannon needs to happen in the context of considering all platforms on which the star cannon can be taken.

S4 AP5 R18 A2 for shuriken cannons is good. I like this decision. I also like the schema for Guardians. I would also suggest (it is hardly the main point) that Pulse Lasers are added to the list of heavy support weapons they can take to replace their two heavy weapon platforms.

That being said, after the Shuriken Cat. profile, which affects so many units, I think a fruitful discussion would be the profiles for all heavy weapons and common weapons in the codex, as they will form the crux of many balance decisions. Not only should the profiles for each weapon be considered, the platforms these weapons are available on should also be discussed. Are we going to allow Guardian Jetbike Squads to access heavy weapons other than shuriken cannons? Are we going to allow the wraithlord to access the D-cannon? Can falcons swap their pulse laser for other weapons at cost? Can wave serpents access the pulse laser? This discussion, of profile and platforms, could solve a number of problems in a single blow, both the ranged anti-tank problem of the current codex, and the Fire Dragon dependency in the Elite slot.

Are we going to allow Guardian Jetbike Squads to access heavy weapons other than shuriken cannons?

No, I don't think so.

Are we going to allow the wraithlord to access the D-cannon?

Yes, but only if it holds no other weapon.

Can falcons swap their pulse laser for other weapons at cost?

No, I don't think so. IMO, the Pulse laser should be the falcons signature weapon.

Can wave serpents access the pulse laser?

See above.

DarknessEternal wrote:I'd rather remove the reaper launcher altogether and give them back Missile Launchers.

Naw Thats lame then there more expsnesive longfangs besides exarchs fight not direct and banshees should be like incubi thats how i think of them in my minds eyes.

Exergy wrote:Few things, mainly based on the recent DE codex

Eldar and Dark Eldar share ancestry, but their mindset, culture, technology, etc differ. There is a greater resemblance between Imperial Guard and Space Marines, but you still don't see them using mirrored or even very similar kit.

Haywire grenades, sounds like a great change but I dont see why only Eldar haywire grenades would do this. If they wanted to change them, wouldnt they have done it for DE as well.

It's a necessary change for nearly all grenades. The unit going into melee risk being completely taken out by the wrong "good" result.

Why should wraithguard and warwalkers have fleet, when Talos and Cronos do not?

Because they are not Talos or Cronos and they use considerably different manufacturing techniques.

Wave Serpents are rather nice transports, shame they are not assault vehicles. I feel that the added power of being an assault vehicle would add a lot of points so I think it should be a vehicle upgrade rather than something given by default.

You'll notice that I turned it around and stripped Wave Serpents of their Energy Fields so as to force them to be different from Falcons. And I'd argue that just because a vehicle is made better doesn't mean it needs to cost more - that's because I don't accept the assumption that the current codex is fairly costed.

Falcon: look at the models, the wave serpent is bigger than the falcon. IMHO the falcon should stay as 6man transports
Also the Falcon packs a lot of firepower, I dont feel they should be dedicated transports.

Re-examine the Falcon's fire power. Just Dave brought up that I double-tapped improvements on the Falcon, but if you actually take a good hard look at what relative fire power the two vehicles have, it's not so great.
Falcon: 1x Pulse Laser + 1x Scatter Laser.
Wave Serpent: 1,5x Scatter Laser.
It's not far off at all - that Falcon costs more and the Pulse Laser is arguably better than a Scatter Laser, but not by all that much. Then you add in that the Falcon has a smaller troop capacity and can't shoot both weapons at the same time and you're in a situation where currently the Wave Serpent most of the time has better survivability, better troop capacity as well as better fire power at a lower cost.

Harlequins: If DE cant give them a dedicated transport why should Eldar? Its annoying both ways but perhaps GW feels they should fight on their feet.

I've yet to see a competitive argument for adding Harlequins in either army, even though Footdar suits them a bit better. Harlequins need to be altered, changed, from their current form. The Dark Eldar codex is an abomination in this respect, and my own suggestion for them is half-arsed at best.

DE Incubi got fleet, I am certain scorpions will too in the next dex as they share the same lineage.

Indeed.

Wraithguaird: Powerfists completely change their dynamic by making them much better in CC. IMHO a powerfist would make them OP at 35pts per model. Would you rather have a T4 2+ terminator or a T6 3+ wraithguard who has a better gun and costs less points.

Just Dave brought this up as well. I focused on Power Fists having power weapon rule and strike last, and forgot about doubled strength. Wraithguard performance in close combat is a bit poor at the moment for a 35 point model, but I agree that with a power fist they simply become way too good not to have their points bumped considerably.

Guardians:
I dont know if I liked them getting BS4. I dont see why they should be better at hitting things than guardsmen. They are just part time soldiers.
Heavy weapon platforms per 5 models is too much. 1 per 10 is in line with other armies troop choices.
Storms:
Again I dont see why they should be WS4, the same as DE wyches, Ork Nobs, and Khorne Bezerkers who live their entire considerably long lives for close combat and practice every day.

Several Dark Eldar warriors have WS4 AND BS4, while they have an average life expectancy shorter than the time Eldar warriors spend with their dolls. Craftworld Eldar live a very, very, long life compared to nearly all races. The part-time soldier argument is getting old. They're a trained militia, not artists who've never seen a gun before, nor savages without any discipline or training.

Rangers:
Pathfinders spit out too much AP1 to be that cheap. Maybe give have the pathfinder rules for 22 points but just give them normal sniper rifles with no additional AP 1. It is kind of confusing anyway as it is.

I only decreased their point cost by 2 you know, and their inherent performance problems which prevent people from taking them isn't going to be weighed up by a point drop of less than 10% of their price.

Warwalkers:
I dont think these should be fast attack. They are not fast and they can have way too many heavy weapons. They are not IG sentinels.

No, they're not sentinels. They are even aberrant compared with the normal Eldar doctrine. The hornet version looks extremely interesting in this respect. I just consider them to belong less in Heavy Support.

I feel that the wave serpent and the falcon should be further differentiated by having the falcon sacrifice all of its transport ability for firepower in the next codex.

Turret-mounted weapons should be counted as 1 gun for firing purposes. The 2nd turret mount should be upgradable to a pulse laser. The Crystal Targeting Matrix should return and give Twin linking, at cost.

The wave serpent should lose its twin linking, and have to pay to get it back.

Then you have the artillery-type tanks with the fire prism and night spinner.

Haywires should be 2-4 glance 5-6 pen, all destroyed results are wrecks.


Wraithguard (I'm biased on wraithguard) should be downgraded to I3, and, being mini-MCs, be given power weapons in CC.

Guardians : 1 heavy weapon per ten is NOT on par with other race's troop choices at all. 2 per 10 is (see: every imperial codex)

War walkers being moved to fast attack, in my opinion is less because they "belong" in fast attack than it is because heavy support is way too crowded.

Gwyidion wrote:Here is the bottom line.

If each eldar codex needs to be respectful of the statlines of common units and wargear in the other codex (DE of CWE, and CWE of DE), there is going to be a serious problem of stagnancy in unit statlines, as statlines can't change in one book without "showing up" or "being unfair" to the other codex.

Surely one must change before the other. I just think that they should consider changing them both in the same edition. IE DE got the first 5th edtion codex, so they could have changed anything that the two share then. The next time I would change things they have in common would be 6th edtion.

On that note, the DE codex prices a BS4 DL at 25 points. I would imagine that Eldar would see a similar pricing, maybe 20 points for a BS3 on guardians(it can move and fire) and 25points for wraithlords and such which are at BS4


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Several Dark Eldar warriors have WS4 AND BS4, while they have an average life expectancy shorter than the time Eldar warriors spend with their dolls. Craftworld Eldar live a very, very, long life compared to nearly all races. The part-time soldier argument is getting old. They're a trained militia, not artists who've never seen a gun before, nor savages without any discipline or training.

Significant numbers of DE remember the fall. DE go out and raid to harvest souls to keep them young but in doing so they become nearly immortal. They are regrown after death.
But length of life is not really as important as the fraction of your recent memory spent practicing. Even profesional soldiers that spent years in the army become rusty after a few years in the reserve.
I dont care if a guardian is 1000 years old, they probably train less than an hour a day. If you want professional soldiers take Aspect Warriors. Aspect Warriors spend their entire lives training and notice how they have the exact same stat line as DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:You'll notice that I turned it around and stripped Wave Serpents of their Energy Fields so as to force them to be different from Falcons. And I'd argue that just because a vehicle is made better doesn't mean it needs to cost more - that's because I don't accept the assumption that the current codex is fairly costed.

Re-examine the Falcon's fire power. Just Dave brought up that I double-tapped improvements on the Falcon, but if you actually take a good hard look at what relative fire power the two vehicles have, it's not so great.
Falcon: 1x Pulse Laser + 1x Scatter Laser.
Wave Serpent: 1,5x Scatter Laser.
It's not far off at all - that Falcon costs more and the Pulse Laser is arguably better than a Scatter Laser, but not by all that much. Then you add in that the Falcon has a smaller troop capacity and can't shoot both weapons at the same time and you're in a situation where currently the Wave Serpent most of the time has better survivability, better troop capacity as well as better fire power at a lower cost.

I think the Waveserpent is fairly price, the weapons however are not. compared to an IG valkarie they are not exactly the same but they are comparable. Similar fast skimming assault vehicles include the Strorm raven and Vect's Dais, both of which come in at 200 points or more.

A falcon as anti GEQ might count a scatter laser as the same as a pulse laser but the pusle laser is longer range, AP2 and higher strength. It can glance AV14 and pen AV 12 and AV13 something a scatter laser can only dream of. It takes down terminators and overkills mega armored nobs. In almost every situation I would rather have a pulse laser than a scatter laser. Saying a scatter laser is better than a pulse laser is like saying an autocannon is better than a lascannon, you wont find many people out there who will go for that.
I support somethign that lets the falcon fire both its turret weapons, maybe all 3 of its weapons.

If you're going to go so far as to compare the Wave Serpent to the Storm Raven, then at the very least take everything into account. The Storm Raven has considerably stronger armament and extremely larger carry capacity.
+Access points on each side, not just rear
+Deep strike
+Able to drop people off after moving flat out
+Able to bring a dreadnought AS WELL
+1 Heavy weapon
+4 One-shot heavy weapons
+Assault Vehicle
+Melta protection in the rear
+Machine spirit
-Dedicated transport
-High strength protection

That's all for about +100 points compared with the current Wave Serpent. If the Falcon would be approaching THAT level of awesomeness, if I only had to pay an additional 70 points, I'd see no need for discussion.
And we've not even discussed that the heavy weapons Blood Angels have access to, for lower comparable point costs, also pack a stronger punch!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bottom line is, the lack of an assault transport or an open topped transport with a capacity of 12 models is hurting the Eldar machanized CC.

I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

Oriallis wrote:My idea

Regular Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2

Dire Avenger Shuriken Catapult
18" S4 AP5 Assault 2, rending

I dislike the rending idea. What, DAs sharpen their monofilament disks to be sharper? As I said my preference would be to make a shuriken catapult Rapid Fire 18" but I can live with the differentiating factor being the BS of DAs. However at this point I feel that you will make EJB awesome and guardians deserve a points increase.

I'm uncertain about the more recent Guardians, but my old ones (3rd edition) have significantly smaller shuriken catapults than do the Dire Avengers.

Guardians are overcosted as they are. Giving them 6" more range, with no other changes, barely justifies not having a points decrease - especially since they pay for platforms on top of their unit cost.

Making the normal S. cat. S4 AP5 R18" Assault 2 is not at all overpowering in any way. Even with GJB squads, they can't get out of 24" range if they want to fire their S. cats., which means they aren't immune to casualties. It hardly makes a difference for most vehicles, since they usually move far enough to prohibit firing at all, or are firing at different targets.

I think the S5 A.S. cat. and the 18" normal S. Cat. are good changes; they make guardians able to provide some fire support, and they make Avengers still clearly better AND make them less dependent on the farseer - all good things that needed to happen, in my opinion. They aren't overpowering in the grand scheme of things, and with the 5-10 guardian design, there will never be a horde-guardian army.

I dislike rending, as above, as it seems to be the generic "fix it" weapon add on.

Okay so let's compare these two and see how they do, I've changed the DAshuricat's strength, the weapons platforms ect.

Defender Guardians: 75 points

Stats: Warlock (as now), Guardians WS/BS3 5+

Unit size: 5 Guardians, 1 Warlock, 1 Shuriken Cannon weapon platform

Special Rules: Fleet

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S4 Assault 2

Options: Up to 5 more guardians may be purchased for 8 points per model, If all 5 additional guardians are taken, another Shuriken Cannon weapons platform may be taken for +10 points.
Any shuriken cannon weapons platform may be upgraded to: Star cannon (x points), scatter laser (x points) ect ect...
The warlock may take any of the options from the warlock entry.
If the unit includes 2 heavy weapon platforms, they may both be replaced with a single support weapon: D-Cannon for x points, Vibro cannon for x points ect...
May take WS dedicated transport.

Any heavy weapon mounted on a platform can fire even if it moved in the movement phase, A support weapon may not fire if the unit has moved this turn. Any unit that includes a heavy weapon platform may not enter a transport

Dire Avengers: 80 points

Stats: As now (BS/WS4 4+) 5++ from shimmershield

Unit size: 5 Dire Avengers, 1 Dire Avenger Exarch

Special Rules: Fleet, Aspect Warrior

Wargear:Shuriken catapult R18" S5 Assault 2, Exarch has shimmershield + 2 catapults

Options: Up to 6 more Dire Avengers may be purchased for 12 points per model
The Exarch may take any of the following powers: Bladestorm (as now), Defend (as now)
May take WS or Falcon dedicated transport

Aspect Warrior - unit can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength.

-----------------------------------------

10 Guardians, 2 shuricannons, Warlock with Conseal - 145 points.
11 Avengers, 1 Exarch with Bladestorm - 162 points.

Guardians Vs GEQ
IG take 40 Lasrifle shots - 13.33 hit - 6.665 wounds - 4.443 die (armour) 2.222 die (3+ cover (conseal))
or
Guardians take 16 S4 shots, 8 S6 shots - 5.33 hit + 2.67 hit - 5.778 wound - 5.778 die out of cover 2.889 die (4+ cover)

Dire Avengers Vs GEQ
IG take 40 Lasrifle shots - 13.33 hit - 6.665 wounds - 3.333 die (cover or armour)
or
Avengers take (bladestorm) 38 shots - 25.333 hit - 21.111 wound - 21.111 die out of cover (ouch!) in cover 10.555 die.


Guardians Vs MEQ
Tac squad take 15 bolter shots, 1 krak missile - 10 bolts hit 0.666 missiles hit - 6.666 bolts wound 0.555 missiles wound - 7.221 wounds out of cover, 2.407 wounds when consealed
or
Guardians take 16 S4 shots, 8 S6 shots - 5.33 hit + 2.67 hit - 4.445 wound - 1.482 die (armour)

Dire Avengers Vs GEQ
Tac squad take 15 bolter shots, 1 krak missile - 10 bolts hit 0.666 missiles hit - 6.666 bolts wound 0.555 missiles wound - 3.703 wounds (armour and Inv) 3.611 wounds (cover)
or
Avengers take (bladestorm) 38 shots - 25.333 hit -16.889 wounds - 6.63 die (armour)

-----------------------------------------

So, Avengers on average kill roughly 4 times as many MEQ's and GEQ's as Guardians do at 0-18"
Guardians really depend on cover to survive, where this makes little or no difference to DA's

This doesn't seem like a 17 point difference to me. The guardians would be little/no use at such short range so would really just end up being extra wounds for the big guns, because once they get close they are useless compared to DA's.

This doesn't seem like a 17 point difference to me The guardians would be little/no use at such short range so would really just end up being extra wounds for the big guns, because once they get close they are useless compared to DA's.

I see it so that the guardians are partially extra wounds for the big guns, and should the enemy come closer, they do have extra defense with their catapults with a bit longer range.
What else are guardians (defenders) good for, really? They are called defenders, aren't they supposed to defend objects then?

Fair point I guess. I just dont like the idea of purchasing a troop purely so it can act as a heavy weapons team.

I think the biggest issue is the cost, why on earth take defenders when you can have a unit of S5 avengers that can take out a 20 man unit of IG in one round of shooting for hardly any extra points?

Maybe it should be more so, that it is the heavy weapons that cost points and not the guardians.

Yeah, I changed this suggestion from my previous one so that the weapons platform isn't free.
The problem I see is that DA's (imo) are pertty much perfectly priced for their current 12ppm cost. Because of the changes to guardians we're having to change a perfectly ballanced unit so that it isnt made redundant, at S5 I think they'd be better suited at 15/16ppm

The guardians are definitely vehicles for the heavy weapons. Do the mathhammer for a Def. Guardian squad with missile launchers and a full DA unit vs AV10/11/12.

1. Guardians using Shuriken Cannon gain 6 S6 shots, not 8.
2. Dire Avengers gain +50% ROF one round for -100% the next, this also needs to account for.
3. The weapons compared are all Imperial Guard killers. Throw in some heavy bolters and what not and watch the Dire Avengers scurry for cover.

I don't think the Dire Avengers need a price hike. I think even with S5 they aren't over priced, compared with some of the more recent codices. What really tops it off is Blade Storm. It's really a no-brainer
20 points for an ability which increases your 150 point squad's effectiveness by 50% (let's face it, it's the first round of shooting that's important).
The Guide Doom Dire Storm Serpent is excessively potent, and it's the "Storm" part that's cheapest and has most impact.

As for separating them, I see the most logical role for Guardians to be purely special weapons teams. Higher platform ratio for Guardians and higher hot-weapon ratio for Storm, and then you have a troop choice which is distinctly different from Dire Avengers / Banshees.
Although with a higher ratio on Storms, then the price per flamer need to be reconsidered. 6 points per melta is decent, but 6 points for a flamer is a bit low if every second or third can take one.

There isn't much of an issue with storm guardians appart from being a bit 1 dimensional. They are good with lots of flamers + destructor, so we can either just keep them like that as they are, or we can try and overhaul them.

I'd be happy with WS/BS3 T3 5++. 5 guardians + warlock, can take 5 more for ?ppm may take 1 fusion gun/flamer per 3/5 models.

The only problem with 3 flammers + destructor is that they'll basically do the same thing as scorpions or DA's.

Gorechild wrote:I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

DA - 20 to 33 S4 shots at BS 4 that can be moved. Also with Defend have an ability to stand up (not necessarily win) to an enemy assault. (22 hits out to 24" with move - 11 wounds)

Guardians - (Assuming BS3 + 1 per 5 weapons platforms) have the ability to put out 12 S6 shots out to 24" while moving and get to add in 32 S4 BS3 shots. (6 S6 hits and 16 S4 hits - 13 wounds)

Guardian Jet Bikes - Get to put out 16 TL BS 3 shots out to 24" along with 12 S6 shots out to 30" (Assuming the use of jet bike move to do stand off movement.(12 S4 hits and 6 S6 hits - 11 wounds)

Cost DA @150 Guardians @ 160 GJB @ 304. Both guardian formations have the ability to enhance their units with a warlock (Embolden, enhance, conceal)

Survival - 20 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP5 weapons hitting)

Advantages: DA have the defend and shimmershield to get 5+ invulnerable save in HTH and -1 attack. Ld 9 (4+ armor still leaves DA vulnerable to HB and AC direct fire weapons)
Guardian - Reduction in firepower lessened as 16 kills before loss of weapons platforms. Conceal makes guardians 1/3 harder to kill in shooting phase.
GJB - Reduction in firepower lessened as 8 kills before loss of cannon armed bikes. 3+ Armor removes risk from all high ROF weapons.

Overall, I think we have improved the GJB and defenders quite a bit. If we go on the assumption that DAs were priced right, I would argue that with our improvements, defenders need to increase in cost and perhaps GJB also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorechild wrote:I think messing with the strength + range has too many knock on effects throughout the rest of the army.

Changing the heavy weapons platforms so they can't move and shoot would go a long way to help the roles of the DA and guardians stand out. If guardians can't move and maintain full firepower, have worse armour and BS3 they will have a very different use to the faster and higher ROF Avengers.

DA - 20 to 33 S4 shots at BS 4 that can be moved. Also with Defend have an ability to stand up (not necessarily win) to an enemy assault. (22 hits out to 24" with move - 11 wounds)

Guardians - (Assuming BS3 + 1 per 5 weapons platforms) have the ability to put out 12 S6 shots out to 24" while moving and get to add in 32 S4 BS3 shots. (6 S6 hits and 16 S4 hits - 13 wounds)

Guardian Jet Bikes - Get to put out 16 TL BS 3 shots out to 24" along with 12 S6 shots out to 30" (Assuming the use of jet bike move to do stand off movement.(12 S4 hits and 6 S4 hits - 11 wounds)

Cost DA @150 Guardians @ 160 GJB @ 304. Both guardian formations have the ability to enhance their units with a warlock (Embolden, enhance, conceal)

Survival - 20 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP5 weapons hitting) Add 33% to Guardians if Conceal Warlock. 27+ hits
10 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 36 hits for GJB. (assuming AP4 weapons hitting) Add 33% to guardians if conceal warlock
10 hits for DA. 20 hits for Guardians. 12 hits for GJB. (Assuming AP3 weapons hitting)Add 33% to guardians and GJB if conceal warlock. 27+ and 16 hits respectively
Advantages: DA have the defend and shimmershield to get 5+ invulnerable save in HTH and -1 attack. Ld 9 (4+ armor still leaves DA vulnerable to HB and AC direct fire weapons)

Guardian - Reduction in firepower lessened as 16 kills before loss of weapons platforms. Conceal makes guardians 1/3 harder to kill in shooting phase.
GJB - Reduction in firepower lessened as 8 kills before loss of cannon armed bikes. 3+ Armor removes risk from all high ROF weapons.

Overall, I think we have improved the GJB and defenders quite a bit. If we go on the assumption that DAs were priced right, I would argue that with our improvements, defenders need to increase in cost and perhaps GJB also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwyidion wrote:Guardians are overcosted as they are. Giving them 6" more range, with no other changes, barely justifies not having a points decrease - especially since they pay for platforms on top of their unit cost.

Making the normal S. cat. S4 AP5 R18" Assault 2 is not at all overpowering in any way. Even with GJB squads, they can't get out of 24" range if they want to fire their S. cats., which means they aren't immune to casualties. It hardly makes a difference for most vehicles, since they usually move far enough to prohibit firing at all, or are firing at different targets.

I think the S5 A.S. cat. and the 18" normal S. Cat. are good changes; they make guardians able to provide some fire support, and they make Avengers still clearly better AND make them less dependent on the farseer - all good things that needed to happen, in my opinion. They aren't overpowering in the grand scheme of things, and with the 5-10 guardian design, there will never be a horde-guardian army.

I dislike rending, as above, as it seems to be the generic "fix it" weapon add on.

Guardian survivablity - 20 base wounds - + giving them 18" shots means more effective. 12" move + 18" range + 6" Jet bike move means no rapid fire 24" weapon will ever hurt them. BIG advantage to EJB.

S5 AP4 Rending DAs is way OP. Excuse me but if this happens I shudder to think of what will be justifiable for Tau (S6 AP4 30" RF rifles and S6 AP4 18" ROF 3 pulse carbines???)

I will say it again - make the focus of Defenders the fact that they have access to cheap weapons platforms as a determining factor. That their catapult fire is defensive in nature is FINE. Leave it 12" or make it rapid fire 18". The affect of Assault 2 18" is a little too big of a shift in the codex and will make the Eldar codex into the new SW codex (or DH) with brokenness and frustration abounding. If you field 20 guardians and get 4 shuriken cannon platforms for nothing - that is 12 S6 24" range shots that no DA can match.

you are quite simply wrong.

In what world is an 18" range + a 6" assault move untouchable by 24" RF guns? If the guns can't fire, the eldar player was cheating. That isn't even mentioning that there are plenty of weapons/delivery platforms which have no problem reaching out and touching an infantry unit at <24".

I don't think rending should be added. Its the ubiquitous upgrade.

Catapults Defenders can't use without basically committing suicide is not 'fine' its a joke. Adding 6" of range to a gun two troop choices and every tank takes is a minor change - especially when you consider the range and role of those tank's primary weapons. 18" range on S. cats matters for vypers and wave serpents, and really nothing else. And for those two really only when the main gun is destroyed!

It isn't a big deal. It is a little change meant to make one of the most maligned troop choices in the entirety of 40k a little more effective.

S5 on DAs is likewise, very small. It doesn't make them ID anything. It doesn't make them flexible into AT, it doesn't make them tear apart anything they care about. It makes them wound marines on 3s. That is an important shift because right now, their main role is "scoring cargo", and they need a doomseer to provide support for them to make them even marginally decent at killing the most ubiquitous infantry in the game. DAs need a buff, and it shouldn't be 24" range, it shouldn't be rending, i don't think it should be BS5. Running out of options.


And, in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

Gwyidion wrote: in the recent frameworks for guardians posted, its been 5-10.

I was purely doing this so we could keep them near their existing cost, without resulting in really cheap hoards of eldar.

I agree, eventhough I don't really like the idea of S5 Avenger Catapults, there isn't that many other options if we want to keep them different from Guardians.

@DAaddict- I was suggesting the shimmershield provides a constant 5++ (not just in cc) just as another way to seperate the two options and make up for guardians having conseal.