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OK so here is what I am going forward with for further playtesting.

Eldar roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest result.

Star Cannons - strength 7

Haywire Grenades – 1- no effect, 2-4 – glance, 5-6 – penetration, Count as AP-.

Phoenix Lords gain a 4+ invulnerable save and may designate one squad of their Aspect as a scoring unit.

Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

Farseer

Warp Gate - Equipment item (25 points) While setting objectives, or prior to the first player's deployment in games where no objectives are used, place a warp gate (mounted on a 50 mm base) on the table outside of the opponent's deployment zone, and at least 12" from any objective. The warp gate is a terrain piece with an AV of 14 and a 4+ invulnerable save. If destroyed by the enemy it counts as a kill point. Each turn one Eldar non vehicular unit entering the table from reserve may treat the warp gate as a friendly board edge. If any enemy unit is located within 3" of the warp gate, it may not be used that turn. Any members of a unit using the warp gate that cannot be placed within 2" of the gate due to any reason are lost in the warp and removed from play.

Mind War – No cover saves.

Eldritch Storm – range 36”.

Guide - Range 24" All friendly ranged attacks against the target enemy unit may reroll "to hit" rolls for one turn. (30 points)

Dire Avengers - plasma grenades, Blade storm - Range attacks made by this unit gain rending this shooting phase. This unit may not make range attacks next turn.

Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.

Avatar – Inspiring Presence - Eldar units within 12 of an Avatar gain stubborn.

Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – This unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter.

Shining Spear’s – 4 point cost reduction, Hit and Run = 15 points

Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from terrain and units are improved by +1.

Support Weapon Platform Battery – Remove from FOC. One support weapon unit may be taken for each Guardian unit in the army. Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points. Vibro Cannon - no cover saves.

Vypers – 35 points. Vyper vehicle upgrades: stones (5), stealth field - grants stealth to the vyper (5 points each), thrusters - grant a 6” move during the assault phase (5 points).

Swooping Hawks – (5 point cost reduction) Hawk Wings – (add) Hawks may deploy by deep strike first turn. Hawks may choose to reroll the scatter dice anytime they deploy via deep strike, but must accept the second roll.

Comments: Despite some criticism, I am going with this list. I am still open to comments, but I am going to test this out a few times.

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Also, ap- on haywire grenades is a needless nerf. Using them already requires getting into CC with an expensive infantry unit against a vehicle.

Gwyidion wrote:Also, ap- on haywire grenades is a needless nerf. Using them already requires getting into CC with an expensive infantry unit against a vehicle.

You noticed the pen on 5+ rather than 6+. Actually it is a buff. The AP- keeps the tank from blowing up and killing the Hawks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alspal8me wrote:

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Quick catch. I'll reword that to , "cover saves from terrain, and units"

ArmyC wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

alspal8me wrote:

ArmyC wrote:Warlocks- Conceal – This Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from other sources are improved by +1.

So a 2+ cover save for a turbo boosting seer council?

While I like this rule for defenders and wraithguard it really gets bent out of shape when looking at a seer council

Other than that I like it Guide especially

Quick catch. I'll reword that to , "cover saves from terrain, and units"

Awesome, with that little change it becomes a much more attractive choice for anything on foot, while not being broken

The eldar you all propose would be called cheese by all but space marines but hell thats the gak we are fething paying for

TheWildHost wrote:The eldar you all propose would be called cheese by all but space marines but hell thats the gak we are fething paying for

sorrywhat?

@ArmyC - You could just say "All 'vehicle destroyed - explodes' results caused by haywire grenades count as 'vehicle destroyed - wrecked' instead". This would stop it nerfing the other vehicle damage results. Just a suggestion

Much better is Gore's change, than a simple AP-. It isn't a buff when it makes the likelyhood of actually accomplishing their task go down.

And really, most of the changes here aren't OP or OTT. Its more a case of xenos getting a little imperial love.

Another thing that might be a good idea would be to change the name of them. As Dark Eldar have haywire grenades I think it would just be less confusing than having two identically names bits of wargear with different rules but ymmv.

I appreciate the time and effort all of you are putting into this subject and hope that GW does as well.

As both this post and FocusedFire's original are QUITE long and I have not completely read either, please forgive me if this has already been discussed:

Eldar vehicles should have some equivalent to a Searchlight!

Thanks.

Scott wrote:I appreciate the time and effort all of you are putting into this subject and hope that GW does as well.

As both this post and FocusedFire's original are QUITE long and I have not completely read either, please forgive me if this has already been discussed:

Eldar vehicles should have some equivalent to a Searchlight!

Thanks.

I have to agree. Albeit I would rather see them get the night filter like the Tau. It always seemed stupid that the arguably most high tech race in the game preferred to fly blind while the relatively backwards imperium thought enough to put searchlights on their vehicles.

I like the knewly sugjested rules.

I'd say that Eldar vehicles should be able to shoot normally in games with the Night Fighting rule. After all, they're so sophisticated it makes sense.

Here's just a few things I've been thinking about the past few days. I'll try to make it short, as it's more of brainstorming than anything else.

Exarch powers - What if exarch powers are chosen from a pool of powers similar to Warlock powers? There could possibly be some limitations such as War Shout requiring a Banshee Mask. The idea is that the most important and role defining powers are NOT exarch powers, but squad powers and MANDATORY. Striking Scorpions would, as a squad, have Move Through Cover and Infiltrate, for example. Need something to act as a melee buffert? Striking Scorpions with Defend Exarch. Need to lay down a real long-ranged barrage? Dark Reaper Exarch with Blade Storm. Have to really punch a hole through a quad-HQ Space Wolf line? Shining Spears Exarch with War Shout. Are you playing Alaitoc and want to go all out fluff or just need to shake a fist at the Green Tide? Dire Avengers Exarch with Infiltrate.

Aspect Warriors not elite enough - Essentially, they're pants. In a universe where a Space Marine is a standard troop and you compare to Eldar Aspect Warriors, these fanatical, borderline sadistical, warrior monks have poor stats. +1A +1I for all of them and maybe souped up weapons for shooting aspects. Dire Avengers as troops is looking dubious at this stage, though. Naturally this leads to cost revamps. Duh.

Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

Mahtamori wrote:Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

I'd like something like this, just because Dire Avengers are the primary troop choice for me, outside of jetbikes. DAs can be made into Elites without too much trouble, if the Avenger Shuriken Catapult was made 1-handed, and they were given a CCW, and going with the idea of each aspect warrior getting +1A and +1I.

blackshark121 wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Black Guardians - Not typical for Biel-Tan, Iyanden or Saim-Hann, but highly typical for Ulthwé and highly likely for nearly all minor craftworlds. These would fill the gap between Aspect Warriors and Guardians that Dire Avengers currently do. Essentially more exotically armed Guardians with better stats (+1WS & +1BS). We're talking no catapults, but an assortment of other weapons. Lasblasters, quasi-plasma, and "bone swords" (see Tyranid codex).

I'd like something like this, just because Dire Avengers are the primary troop choice for me, outside of jetbikes. DAs can be made into Elites without too much trouble, if the Avenger Shuriken Catapult was made 1-handed, and they were given a CCW, and going with the idea of each aspect warrior getting +1A and +1I.

That would make for a horribly cramped Elite slot, Its full to bursting point already. That would just leave 4 flavours of Guardian (one of which would be "new" and very similar to the already used DA's anyway) and Rangers in troops. Putting DA in elite is either going to make them unused, or rob the rest of the army of CC or anti tank capability.

Honestly all I can think of would be to drop Storm Guardians. That would give us a scout style troop, a heavy weapon style troop, a jetbike troop, and an anti infantry troop, and leave the CC to the real specialists (why would you waste precious eldar lives charging blindy into an Ork mob without them been trained and armed properly for the job?).

Trashing Storm Guardians isn't such a bad idea, actually. They're going to be a pain to get right.

I like the idea of trashing storm guardians. Just allow the same special weapons option on regulard guardian defenders.

Just more options on regular guardians, no mandatory platform (dumb), potential weapon options for the squad like almost every other army's basic troops instead of all-or-nothing. Make their guns shoot a bit further, and maybe they would be worth more than an IG. Maybe just maybe they would actually be worth their X points.

I think with the poisoned weapons, invul saves, wound allocation, and FNP becoming so abundant in newer codex and important in 5th, it would be nice to see things like that. I'm pretty confident wound allocation will be revamped in 6th ed. because it is just stupid. Fortunately for Eldar, they will get their first unit where it is possible to exploit it right before the rules change again.

I don't see why a wraithlord or wraithguard wouldn't have FNP - and unaffected by poison would make sense too. a poisoned construct? stupid.

All PL should have an indestructable save. If an Autarch has access to wrist mounted force field, you'd think one of the 6 greatest Eldar warriors of all time would have it too. Stupid.

Allow shining spears to be vyper pilots too. Actually, just overhaul Vypers with some kind of ability to fire while moving fast enough to be defended by its speed. As it stands, Vypers are useless with two options: move and live, or get a shot off and die to a bolter. stupid.

Allow falcons to fire both turret weapons regardless of speed as long as it can fire one it can fire both. As it is they are meant to be fast moving gunships, but end up being either fast moving, or gunships, and Wave Serpents have better firepower than they do, as at least they are twin linked. Stupid.

The death jester's cannon fires a deadly toxic venom that causes its victims to violently erupt in a messy bio explosion... but its just venom in the description, not poison, right? stupid.

Since Harlequins do not have the same beefups available to the DE equivalent, they should not cost the same.

just off the top of my head here.

Mahtamori wrote:Trashing Storm Guardians isn't such a bad idea, actually. They're going to be a pain to get right.

That was exactly my thinking I couldn't really see a need for them, there's nothing they do that cant be done elsewhere, so why bother

DAaddict wrote:I like the idea of trashing storm guardians. Just allow the same special weapons option on regulard guardian defenders.

I suggested making these upgrade available to GJB's (when taken with a saim hann character) rather than normal guardians, any thoughts on that? How would you suggest you give defenders fusions/flamers? Instead of platforms?

yeenoghu wrote: I think with the poisoned weapons, invul saves, wound allocation, and FNP becoming so abundant in newer codex and important in 5th, it would be nice to see things like that. I'm pretty confident wound allocation will be revamped in 6th ed. because it is just stupid. Fortunately for Eldar, they will get their first unit where it is possible to exploit it right before the rules change again.
I don't see why a wraithlord or wraithguard wouldn't have FNP - and unaffected by poison would make sense too. a poisoned construct? stupid.

It would make perfect sense, its just a matter of balance though. A T8 immune to poison FNP 3+ save MC would have to cost a hell of a lot of points or it would be completely broken.

For Guardian Jetbikes, Dark Eldar can be both an indication of what is to come and what you can do.

I'm imagining the elite Black Guardians to be essentially Guardian statline +1 to skills and +1 to leadership.
Weapon options would be Lasblaster (24" S3 Ap5 assault 3), Pulse Lance (24" S6 Ap2 assault 1), and Scintillating Blades with Shuriken Pistol (close combat option, re-roll armour saves).
Possibly access to other miscellaneous options like a deep strike kit (not jump infantry, just deep striking) or similar landing gear.
Armour'd still be pants, cost would be relatively low 10 point region.

Let's consider what to do concerning removing SGs. Maybe, for every 10 Guardian Defenders, they make take one flamer or fusion gun.

Also, for black guardians, maybe they can be led by an individual Aspect Warrior unit, and let them take either a shuriken catapult, or a pistol and ccw, and get another few benefits, like an extra PW or 2 for banshees, a Scorpion Chainsword for a scorpion, fusion guns for dragons, etc... This way, they could be "aspect warriors lite", to enhance the "specialization" concept of Eldar Armies.

Their position as militia prevents them from gaining the shiny awesome gear needed to excel in close combat, while their lack of training prevents them from getting the useful special rules.
It's not that Eldar have a shortage of shiny spiffy things that they could conceivably give to them, but they do happen to have a shortage of manpower to give them to. Such precious manpower is best kept inside vehicles or manning the biggest guns.

Storm Guardians can be made to work as a flamer infantry, but this means they will be significantly more efficient than both Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers at 2-8". Not that that is a great problem when we're increasing both of their respective ranges to 18", but the big question begs asking
What the hell are the other dudes doing there with pointy sticks when all you use is the 2-3 with flamers?

Making a troop choice unit with flamers (as in 1:1 ratio) is a bit much to stomach for non-Aspect Eldar. And dumping the Storm Guardian price to the 5-6 points they are actually worth is also quite a bit against their fluff (better dumping the unit entirely).

What is needed for Storm Guardians to perform, and we're not talking about the two guys with the flamers, is an increase in their net worth per model. This can be done by increasing their weapons to be power weapons (which would also increase their cost to near 11 per model), but that's stepping on Howling Banshees.
Increasing their attacks - Scorpions. Increasing their strength - Scorpions. Increasing their armour is conceivable, but why would they have better armour than Defenders?

I think the problem we've run into is that Storm Guardians in their current iteration simply don't fit into the fluff- there is no reason to charge Eldar en mass when they are a dying race. There is a huge amount of IG, Orks and Nids never stop regenerating, so they can afford to send a huge amount of units on charges, as opposed to the Eldar, who are technologically the strongest, and give their units pistols and knives.

I disagree that all-flamer troops is too much. The Eldar are, again, the most technological race, so it fits that they would arm basic troops to the teeth, to keep them from dying. I think raising the Shuriken Catapults' range to 18" would compensate for flamers, and lower the Avenger shuriken Catapult's AP to 4 compensate for the standard catapult. In addition, I think the DA exarch should be given, as a wargear choice, a S5 AP4 assault 2 Exarch Shuriken Catapult. I don't rate myself as a judge of overpowered-ness in the slightest, so my idea concerning shuriken catapults might be over the top, but I think that it is an idea that merits consideration.

I would like to see some of the vehicle options improved as well as a few new options and some improvements on some other units.

blackshark121 wrote:I disagree that all-flamer troops is too much. The Eldar are, again, the most technological race, so it fits that they would arm basic troops to the teeth, to keep them from dying.

Why on earth would you ever take War Walkers, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions or Defender Guardians when you could spend 100 points on a troop unit with 10 flamers?! They would utterly destroy any horde, and through sheer weight of numbers would cripple MEQ quads. Sure it doesnt make sense sending untrained poorly equipt eldar into battle from a fluff standpoint, but from a gameplay point of view, arming them to the teeth would be broken. Surely it would make more sense just to not have them on the battlefield at all?

not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

DAaddict wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

Fire dragons are one of the few already well balanced units, although I do like the idea of them having options for flamers their primary fucus should not change. How about "up to 2 fire dragons may replace their meltaguns with flamers for +8 pts per model. This would max out at 3 flamers (including the exarch). This way they become more versatile and cooler, but not unbalanced.

The idea has crossed my mind, as well, though I say like DAaddict - flamers are just so good, I'd say even better than meltas, that a cost decrease is not justified.