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rivers64 wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:not sure if this has been suggested yet because its such a massive post and i havent the time to read it, but about the all flamer unit; perhaps if fire dragons were lowered in cost (say 5pts so they would be 11pts each) and had a flamer as standard, then have the fusion gun as a 5pt upgrade (similar to in the BA dex were its a 5pts upgrade to give your termies TH/SS). this is just an of the top of the head thought but it seem to keep in theme with the "fire" dragons.

While the idea is great it is also very high powered to have a unit full of flamers. I would vote for a no cost switch out. Either flamers or melta guns for 16 each.

Fire dragons are one of the few already well balanced units, although I do like the idea of them having options for flamers their primary fucus should not change. How about "up to 2 fire dragons may replace their meltaguns with flamers for +8 pts per model. This would max out at 3 flamers (including the exarch). This way they become more versatile and cooler, but not unbalanced.

Aspect warriors are not meant to be versatile, they are meant to excel in one aspect of war to the total exclusion of all else. Giving an aspect unit multiple roles is completely contradictory to how an edar army should work. It's as fundamental to the army's design as skimmers and T3 are, if you want a versatile "jack of all trades, master of none" army, then you don't want to be playing Eldar.

well then maybe have leave them at the same cost (16pts), then have an option to have them all replace their fusion guns with flamers? also i think this idea makes the dragon's breath a more attractive choice so therefore it would need a cost increase too. perhaps 8pts so its on par with the firepike? (but in truth i really have no idea)

The Dragon's Breath is low in cost simply because it's not something you buy and use - it goes against the concept of the entire squad as it is anti-infantry in an anti-tank squad. The Fire Pike, however, is just over-costed for what it provides.

Should the squad be able to exchange their melta with flamers, then the Dragon's Breath might need to be increased in cost since it'll work very nicely with the squad.

All in favor of allowing a switchout to flamers at no cost but also universal. No squad of 5 flamers and 5 meltaguns. But if you want 10 flamers with the option of a hvy flamer for the exarch or 10 melta guns with an option of a firepike. The precident is set that the exarch can go hvy flamer or fusion gun/fire pike I have no problem with the all flamer version. I just do think in the current metagame, it is a non-starter. The eldar need AT not troop killing ability so if I am building a list I am going to field melta armed fire dragons and dire avenger squads versus fire dragon flamer squads and guardian platforms for AT.

Speaking of which... larger saturation of haywire grenade options and possibly even a fair amount of haywire launchers or similar items for exarchs?
Not truly awesome guaranteed one-shot-one-kill AT, but back up so you don't absolutely have to get Fire Dragons, maybe?

Still personnally for tossing the SH lasguns for haywire launcher/grenade launcher. Then lose the yo-yo hawk and template dropping. If you give the S3 AP6 small blast template sure potentially you will have to scatter 10 templates but who cares? This is going to give the hawks a stand-off firing capability that it currently lacks other than the stupid deep strike template drop. Haywire launcer gets them a stand off anti-tank instead of the suicidal assault to drop the haywire grenades followed by the successful blow up of the target only to be assaulted by the contents of the vehicle!!!

scattering 10 small blasts would take forever - it isn't a good mechanic.

Why not just make their las-blasters S5 Ap5 R24" Assault 1, Haywire?

Hmm, seems like we're back to square one with the Swooping Hawks again - the question what their speciality is. Is it vehicle killing (typically Fire Dragon turf, but they are Elite)? Is it infantry killing (something Warp Spiders do admirably given the chance)? Is it to fill the empty spot of mid-range MEQ killing?

Assault 1 Haywire make them undesirable attacking anything but vehicles - particularly large vehicles. Should note, though, that the haywire launcher was low both on S and AP, meaning they'd be somewhat decent against MEQ in a tight spot, and the lasblaster turned Haywire Blaster could borrow on that.

I would like us all to consolidate our thoughts into what each us us feel are the best ideas we have seen from this thread.

Then each person that wants to put those ideas into a post can do so.

It would be helpful to see what people would choose.

I will get mine up in a minute.

Gwyidion wrote:scattering 10 small blasts would take forever - it isn't a good mechanic.

Why not just make their las-blasters S5 Ap5 R24" Assault 1, Haywire?

How about 1 large blast template S= 2+ 1 per2 swooping hawks (rounded up) that means it would be a maximum of S7 AP5 blast template. 18" range is going to make it fairly short ranged. Or you can direct fire haywire grenades at a vehicle.

1. Eldar units with the fleet ability also gain Quick Feet. Quick Feet - Roll 2d6 and pick the highest when this unit runs.

2. Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”

3. Star Cannons - strength 7

4. Blade Storm – During this shooting phase, this unit’s Avenger Shuriken Catapults may gain the rending USR or act as assault 3 weapons. This unit may not use their Avenger Shuriken Catapults next shooting phase.

5. Phoenix Lords gain a 5+ invulnerable save and may select one squad of their Aspect as a troop choice.

6.

7.

8. Mind War – 10 points and add No cover saves.

9. Eldritch Storm - 10 points and range 24".

10.
11. Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.

12.
13.Warp Spiders – Surprise Assault – This unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter.

14. Shining Spear’s – Expand the maximum unit size to 8, 5 point cost reduction, Hit and Run = 15 points, get shuriken pistols.

15. Dark Reapers – Exarch may target a seperate unit. Change Crack Shot so it simply ignores cover saves, but it affects the entire unit.

16. Conceal – The Warlock's entire unit gains a 5+ cover save. Cover saves from terrain and units are improved by +1.

17. Wraithguard – Add a second option to the wraith cannon of range 24”, heavy 1.

18. Rangers – Ranger long rifle wounds on 3+, and has rending and pinning. Pathfinders rend on 5+.

19. Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule and rending, +5 points. Vibrocannon - no cover saves. D Cannon range 36" +5 points.

20. Vypers – 35 points. Eliminate access to current vehicle upgrades except spirit stones and two new ones. Stealth field – This upgrade grants stealth to the vyper (5 points each). Terrain sensors - reroll dangerous terrain checks (5 points).

21. Swooping Hawks – (2 point cost reduction) Hawk Wings - (add) Roll 1 d6 for scatter when they deep strike. Intercept (15 points) Add heroic intervention. Sky Leap (20 points) Add that they can roll to arrive from reserves 1st turn.

What about just making the unit's blasts follow the same rules as multiple barrage?

--

You'll excuse me if I am inspired by other's posts as I edit this

My preferences

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap5 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Spiritseer. Improves wraithsight range and provides wraith with Fleet.
* Others unchanged.

Exarch powers:
Chosen from a pool of powers. Each Exarch may only choose one Exarch power. (Note that this leads to better synergy with Phoenix Lords in a round-about way). The pool is as follows, and applies to all aspect warriors, Exarchs, Autarchs, and Phoenix Lords in a squad where they are present as long as the owning model is alive:
* Blade Storm. Each weapon in the squad is able to fire one additional shot, but needs to cooldown during the next shooting phase. 20 points.
* Defend. Attacks directed at the squad must re-roll their rolls to hit. 15 points.
* Withdraw. Hit & Run at the Exarch's initiative. 10 points.
* Shadowstrike. Infiltrate. 20 points.
* Warshout. Furious charge. 15 points.
* Keen Shot. Enemies must re-roll successful cover saves. 20 points.
* Acrobatics. May assault on the same turn the squad disembarks. 15 points.
<Note that these are available to all aspect warriors, even those for which they make no sense, and are meant to specialize the squad further rather than pigeon hole the squad as an option>

Weapons and upgrades.
Unit-specific weapons are located in their respective entries.
* Monofilament. This weapon attribute constitutes that the squad affected is in difficult terrain and must make a dangerous terrain test the next time it moves, for which ever reason it moves.
* Star Cannon. Change Heavy 2 to Heavy 1 Blast.
* Pulse Laser. This option is available to all units capable of choosing Star Cannons at the same price as a Star Cannon.
* Vectored Engines no longer protects against crash and burn, now provides deep strike.

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know two psychic powers. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power known and +1 power use for +50 points.
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch).
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any psycher HQ choice may have up to 3 of these as retinue. Spiritseer upgrade now grants wraiths Fleet of Foot.
* Eldrad Ulthran. Removed.

HQ - Phoenix Lords
* All have Battle Fate (4+).
* Asurmen's Sword of Asur causes Instant Death and re-rolls melee to-hit.
* Baharroth. Remove Grenade Pack, plasma grenades, Skyleap and Intercept. Add Turbo-boost and Crack-shot.
* Jain Zar. War Shout is rolled by HER.
* Karandras. Remove Stalker.

HQ - Craftworld Specific.

Elite
* Scorpions. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate
* Banshees. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Counter-assault.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost.
* Wraithguard. 45 points per model +1 wound. Add: Monstrous Creature. Weapon is Heavy 1 (simply to illustrate fluff at this point)
* Harlequin Troupe. 20 points per model. Add Rending to Dance of Death. Harlequin's Kiss causes instant death. Alter save to 5+ armour save, 4+ dodge.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Support Platform. This is it's new home. Guardian profile +1 wound T3(5) (two crewmen, and there's only so much it can protect against)
- Shadow Weaver. Monofilament.
- D-Cannon. No further change needed.
- Vibrocannon. Ignores cover. Each additional Vibrocannon adds +1 to strength and +1 to number of hits as well as +1 to the damage roll against vehicles.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians and 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18".
* Dire Avengers. 14 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5. Exarch option: Power weapon & Shimmer Shield now offers a 5+ invulnerable save with no melee restrictions, Diresword now causes instant death with no leadership rolls.
* Guardian Jetbikes. Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Squad size is not 2 Guardians plus 1 Warlock with an extra 3 Guardians able to join. Any Jetbike may upgrade weapon @ old cost.
* Black Guardians. New unit, 10 points per model. 4 Guardians + 1 Warlock with extra 5 Guardians upgradable. Plasma grenades, Close Combat Weapon and Shuriken Pistol. Fleet of foot & Infiltrate. Guardian stats +1WS/BS/In. One in three Guardians may replace Shuriken Pistol with Fusion Gun or Flamer for +6 points (note, this reduces number of melee attacks). <This needs some serious thinking through... simple 2 S3 attacks in melee is still puny for their cost. They should be elite, but not as elite as Aspect Warriors>

Fast Attack.
* War Walkers. This is their new home.
* Warp Spiders. +1 attack. Monofilament (see Nightspinner). Add: Hit & Run.
* Swooping Hawks. +1 attack. Remove grenade pack, plasma grenades, and lasblaster. Add: Turbo-boost, Haywire Blaster (R24" S3 Ap3 Assault 1, Haywire). Exarch option: Hawk Talon (R24" S3 Ap3 Assault 2, Haywire), Sunrifle (unchanged)
* Shining Spears. +1 attack. Exarch option: Power weapon now comes with a Shuriken Pistol.
* Vyper. These are now Jetbikes, no longer vehicles. Guardian Jetbike profile +1 wound (two crew members) and is armed with a Shuriken Cannon. Cost of all weapons reduced by 5 points.<These are similar to SMurf bikes, but trades the grenades and +1 to all stats for -5 points and being a jetbike instead of a bike>

Heavy Support
* Falcon. This unit has Crystal Targeting Matrix, and is capable of firing one additional weapon than it normally would. <Straight up POTMS>
* Fire Prism. No further alterations needed.
* Nightspinner. 100 points per model.
* Wraithlord. Wraithsword adds +1 attack, but does not add re-roll to hit. Multiple weapons of the same kind are not twin-linked. May take two Wraithsword.
* Dark Reapers. 30 points per model. +1 attack. Add Relentless. Exarch option: Tempest Launcher is no longer barrage.

To be continued / altered. :p

Copied from above, with alterations

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.
* Wraith: Units with Wraith are undead constructs of wraithbone. They are fearless, immune to poison weapons (poison weapons or weapons which wound on a fixed roll wound on a 6+), and slow and purposeful. Slow and Purposeful is exchanged for relentless whenever the Wraith unit starts the turn within 12" of a Spiritseer.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap5 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Guide - Range 24". All friendly ranged attacks against the target enemy unit may reroll "to hit" rolls for one turn.
* Fortune: R 18"

PLs:
Phoenix Lords gain a 4+ invulnerable save, all squads of their aspect are scoring, one squad may be taken as a retinue (FoC free), DAs are stubborn.

Exarch powers:
* Chosen from a pool of powers. Each Exarch may only choose one Exarch power. (Note that this leads to better synergy with Phoenix Lords in a round-about way)

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know all psychic powers, cast 2 base. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power use and -5 modifier to the test for +50 points. (Question: Older Eldar, particularly Farseers, are described to have their skin become more and more like Wraithbone, and they toughen up as they grow older. +1T or is that just unnecessary fluffification?) This is why eldrad has T4 - if we kill eldrad, we can make an eldrad-like upgrade
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch).
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any Farseer or psycher special character may have up to 3 of these as retinue. May no longer walk around on their own.

Elite
* Scorpions. 18 points per model. Natural S4, +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate, Fleet of Foot.
* Banshees. 18 points per model. +1 attack.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost. Fusion Gun: S8, Ap1, R12" Melta 1, Fusion (Fusion: Add 6" to maximum range of weapon when determining range for purposes of the Melta rule)
* Wraithguard. +1 wound, I3. Add: Monstrous Creature. Weapon is R18", Rapidfire (also, Wraithguard as MCs is a genius change, but wraithlords need more than 3w if we can take an entire squad of 2w MCs)

Heavy
* War Walkers moved to FA
* Reapers: enemy rerolls successful cover saves, Slow and Purposeful, 2+ Armor save, Exarch unchanged
* Wraithlords: see earlier post
* Fire prisms: Squadrons
* Falcons: Can upgrade turret to a 2nd pulse laser, Turret counts as single weapon

FA:
* Vypers: 2W T5 3+ armor, 1-3, may buy warlock-on-bike upgrade, unit type: jetbike
* War Walkers: 11/10/10, rest as-is
* Spiders: +1 A, weapons are monofilament, same as nightspinner
* Hawks: Multiple fire modes, S3 Ap5 R24" Assault 3, or S- Ap- R24 Assault 1, Haywire, Also have Haywire grenades, intercept, turboboost.
* Spears: "spears" are now executioners, 30ppm, 4-6, assault grenades, +1 A base.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians and 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform/special weapon per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Replace all platforms for 1 Heavy Support Platform (NOT an artillery unit) (4 gunners, who are different In Game Terms (this is wound allocation interaction), requires 2 live gunners to fire).
* Dire Avengers. 12 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5.

A point of further discussion: Eldar vehicles in squads.
- I see Gwydion has marked Fire Prism as squadron.

Eldar "suffer" from a lack of potent value per force organisation slot. While it is not a goal in itself to be able to make a list that's as expensive as possible, while still following FOC, the Eldar player may find that particularly Wraithlord and tank heavy lists run into a problem with the FOC.

Should Fire Prisms, Night Spinners, and Falcons be allowed to squadron? Should Wraithlords be allowed to group? How does this affect the attractiveness of the lesser Vypers and War Walkers - are they fine as they are FA or do their squadrons need to be increased?

One thing to remember is that Eldar tanks tend to be on the large side, meaning a squadron of three may be hard to fit together properly on the table.
On the other hand, it does provide a nice way of dealing with Fire Prism linking (although there's little sense in linking 3 prisms for a focused blast.)

Mahtamori wrote:A point of further discussion: Eldar vehicles in squads.

I think the FP is the most likely to be squadroned, yet it really reduces the cool factor of bouncing a shot across the board to pair up two prisms.

How about a Necron Tomb Spyder treatment. You can take up to 3 in one FOC slot, but they act as independant models.

Wraith Lords would be awesome grouped up, but I would rather see them sprinkled into other slots. We saw the Farseer Wraith Lord from Forge World. I can see another IC type of WL in a troop slot, or allow a WL to join a Wraithguard unit that is 10 strong and taken as a troop choice. Make it an upgrade of the Warlock. A Warlock Wraith Lord leading Wraithguard.

Matt Ward could only dream of such imagination.

Falcons seem like command vehicles and should not be squadroned, IMHO. I would not mind seeing Nightspinners able to group up to increase the strength of their web. I like them for the same treatment as the FP's.

Love this stuff

Random thought: Falcons as dedicated transports for specific HQ choices (essentially HQ that can take retinue, i.e. Farseers and possibly PLs or maybe Warlocks) but otherwise HS if taken separately.

It's sort of funny, I always viewed the Falcons as the typical run-in-group assault vehicle while the spinner and prisms I view as fire support. I.e. the reverse of your view ArmyC.

My view is to look at the codex in 2 ways.

First are the small changes that could be made right now and accepted among my play group that would allow me to use more models, and play more ways effectively. This is where I am putting most of my effort.

Second are the things that a new codex ought to have to make eldar competitive, and as fun and cool, as they ought to be.

I think much of Mahtamori's and Gwyidion's efforts fit in the second catagory.

Many of the ideas there are super cool and would be very effective and could be balanced, but a few of them would not "feel" very Eldarish to many long time players.

Something I run into from long time players are comments like, "But that isn't the way X is supposed to be." This shows that there is a very strong momentum of story behind all of these units, stats and abilities.

GW is all about story driven gaming. I feel like Exarchs drawing from a pool of abilities is contrary to the storyline of what aspect warriors are. Their wargear and fighting style is very ritualistic and it is written into all the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Random thought: Falcons as dedicated transports for specific HQ choices (essentially HQ that can take retinue, i.e. Farseers and possibly PLs or maybe Warlocks) but otherwise HS if taken separately.

I have always liked Flacons as dedicated transports. Other codices have gone that way as well.

Phoenix Lords with a 5 man retinue certainly ought to have access to a Falcon.

A Farseer with 5 Warlocks would be perfect in a Falcon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an idea.

Following the GW trend to create IC as a means to give special rules to the army, Eldar IC's should be identified with a certain craftworld. I would love to see unique Autarch's, Farseer's, Warlocks, Exarchs, etc. all identified with a specific craftworld, and following that fluff and style.

Then an Eldar general rule should be that you cannot mix charactures from different craftworlds in the same army.

Due to that restriction, you can be more imaginative with the models, because you don't have to worry about OP combinations.

It's a fair point regarding the ritualistic and excessively focused way of combat, however, some abilities just doesn't make sense.

Why would a Striking Scorpion not take infiltrate, unless you're meta-gaming? Striking Scorpions are sneaky (actually, all Eldar are.)
Then there are the abilities which, honestly, are just a pile of dung and costed thereafter. Surprise Assault doesn't even work and was very situational even when it did. Intercept is good, but those flies often make a mess of themselves at the same time as the Land Raider (or get stomped the turn after.)

The gist of the matter is, there are several good abilities, and there's room to make the Exarchs much more interesting. Following that line of thought further;

Exarchs in squads must purchase an upgrade, may choose between two, but may not pick both. The upgrade or ability is not necessarily unique to the squad, but optimized for it.
* Blade Storm, for instance, is a sort of god-send for Dark Reapers, so their Exarch should be able to take that one.
* Infiltrate is another of those upgrades that could benefit the Eldar army in several places, especially those who wish to make their army Alaitoc.
etc

For instance, Banshee squad could look like thus:
4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch 110 points.
WS/BS4, S/T3, W1, A2, I5, Ld9
PW+Pistol, Mask.
Additional Banshees at +18 points per model.
Exarch must choose one of:
* Shadowstalker (Infiltrate)
* War Shout (When using Banshee Mask, models in base contact with Exarch has WS1 for that turn) alt (Squad has FC)

Scorpions
4 Aspect Warriors and 1 Exarch 110 points.
WS/BS4, S/T3, W1, A2, I5, Ld9
SCS+Pistol, Mandiblasters.
Additional Scorpions at +18 points per model.
Exarch must choose one of:
* Shadowstalker (Infiltrate)
* Defend (Models in base contact with squad loses one attack to a minimum of 1)

(Exarch upgrade is calculated at +20 points, where it should be noted that Exarchs provide lower benefits than other squad leaders which are at times completely free in other codexes, so the +20 points is both for the additional attack at higher I as well as the power)

The difficulty is to NOT make a choice where one of the abilities is a dubious 5 pointer and the other is an awesome 20 pointer.

I like talking about eldar and reading what others have to say, so i'm bumping and updating my take on our changes, by stealing mahtamori's format and making changes.

changes in bold

Mahtamori wrote:
--
My preferences

Universal special rules:
* Fleet of Foot. All living or daemon Eldar. No vehicles or re-animated.
* Move Through Cover. All non-MC living Eldar.
* Exarchs are mandatory upgrades for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 10 points.
* Warlocks are mandatory upgrade for one squad model at a baked-in cost of approximately 20 points.
* All aspect warriors are treated as veterans according to template. They all have +1 attack.
* Wraith: Units with Wraith are undead constructs of wraithbone. They are fearless, immune to poison weapons (poison weapons or weapons which wound on a fixed roll wound on a 6+), and slow and purposeful. Slow and Purposeful is exchanged for relentless whenever the Wraith unit starts the turn within 12" of a Spiritseer.

Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.
* Eldritch Storm. R- S4 Ap4 Large blast, Barrage, Spinning. (Normal armour penetration)
* Conceal reads "Conceal improves the cover granted by terrain for the unit the Warlock is with by one, and as such gives a 6+ save even if the squad would not normally be concealed" (Stacks with Stealth, though unlikely to synergise, but does not stack with Turbo-boost)
* Spiritseer. Improves wraithsight range and replaces Slow & Purposeful with Relentless. Standard on farseer, upg on warlock.
* Others unchanged.


Weapons and upgrades.
Unit-specific weapons are located in their respective entries.
* Monofilament. This weapon attribute constitutes that the squad affected is in difficult terrain and must make a dangerous terrain test the next time it moves, for which ever reason it moves.
* Star Cannon. Change Heavy 2 to Heavy 1 Blast.
* Pulse Laser. This option is available to all units capable of choosing Star Cannons at the same price as a Star Cannon.
* Vectored Engines no longer protects against crash and burn, now provides deep strike.
* Haywire. Vehicles which suffer hits from a Haywire weapon are glanced on a d6 roll of 2-4, penetrated on 5-6 instead of using the weapon's strength. Non-vehicle units are not affected by this attribute.

HQ
* Farseer. Cost increased to 120 base. Farseers know, and can use two psychic powers. Spirit Stone replaced with Venerable upgrade and provides +1 power known and +1 power use for +50 points.
* Autarch. Provides optional +1 to reserve rolls and allows re-placement of two units per Autarch prior to scout moves during deployment. Counts as an aspect warrior (not an exarch), each autarch may designate a single board edge which is not listed in the scenario rules as 'belonging' to the opposing player as an additional table edge belonging to the eldar player, for reserve purposes.
* Avatar. Fleet of foot. Eternal Warrior. Could fancy him up, but he's basically good as is.
* Warlock Retinue. Any psycher HQ choice may have up to 3 of these as retinue. Spiritseer upgrade now replaces Slow & Purposeful with Relentless.
* Eldrad Ulthran. Removed.

HQ - Phoenix Lords
* Disciples: All aspect warriors of the same aspect as a phoenix lord are stubborn. When the PL is in the same squad, they are fearless. The attaches squad is also scoring.
* All have Battle Fate (4+).
* Asurmen's Sword of Asur causes Instant Death on failed opponent T test and re-rolls melee to-hit and wound.
* Baharroth. Remove Grenade Pack, plasma grenades, Skyleap and Intercept. Add Turbo-boost and Crack-shot.
* Jain Zar. War Shout is rolled by HER.
* Karandras. Remove Stalker.

HQ - Craftworld Specific.

Elite
* Scorpions. 20 points per model. +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate
* Banshees. 20 points per model. +1 attack, S4 natural, exarch 2+ armor save. Add: Counter-assault.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. Add 6" to the range of their weapons when determining half-range for melta rule (makes them able to 2d6 tanks from 9", greatly protecting them from explosions).
* Wraithguard. 35ppm, 2w, S6, have S&P or Relentless from Wraith rule, weapon is R18, Rapidfire.
* Harlequin Troupe. 20 points per model. Add Rending to Dance of Death. Harlequin's Kiss causes instant death. Alter save to 5+ armour save, 4+ dodge. Enemy unit leadership values within 12" of a Troupe Master, Death Jester, or Spiritseer are modified by -2.

Troop
* Storm Guardian. Removed.
* Guardian Squad. Base squad is now 4 Guardians, 1 Warlock. May purchase one platform per 3 Guardians (Warlock doesn't count). Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". if the squad numbers 9 guardians and 1 warlock, may forfeit all platforms to purchase a single Support Platform.
* Support Platform. This is it's new home. Guardian profile +1 wound T3(5) (two crewmen, and there's only so much it can protect against)
- Shadow Weaver. Monofilament.
- D-Cannon. R30".
- Vibrocannon. Ignores cover. Each additional Vibrocannon adds +1 to strength and +1 to number of hits as well as +1 to the damage roll against vehicles.
* Dire Avengers. 14 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5. Exarch option: Power weapon & Shimmer Shield now offers a 5+ invulnerable save with no melee restrictions, Diresword now causes instant death on failed T test by wounded model.
* Guardian Jetbikes. Twin-Linked Shuriken Catapult now has range of 18". Squad size is now 2 Guardians plus 1 Warlock with an extra 3 Guardians able to join. Any Jetbike may upgrade weapon @ old cost.
* Black Guardians. New unit, 10 points per model. 4 Guardians + 1 Warlock with extra 5 Guardians upgradable. Plasma grenades, Close Combat Weapon and Shuriken Pistol. Fleet of foot & Infiltrate. Guardian stats +1WS/BS/In. One in three Guardians may replace Shuriken Pistol with Fusion Gun or Flamer for +6 points (note, this reduces number of melee attacks). <This needs some serious thinking through... simple 2 S3 attacks in melee is still puny for their cost. They should be elite, but not as elite as Aspect Warriors> SM scouts do pretty ok in their role with similarly paltry combat ability and limited weapon options, though they serve as sergeant delivery systems from OT transports....

Fast Attack.
* War Walkers. This is their new home.
* Warp Spiders. +1 attack. Monofilament (see Nightspinner). Add: Hit & Run.
* Swooping Hawks. +1 attack. Remove grenade pack, plasma grenades, and lasblaster. Retain: Intercept, Add: Haywire Grenades, Skyleap(Turbo-boost), Haywire Blaster (R24" S3 Ap5 Assault 3, OR R24" S- Ap6, Assault 1,Haywire). Exarch option: Hawk Talon (Power weapon, Haywire) , Sunrifle (R24" S3 AP5 Assault 6, OR R24" S- AP6 Assault3, Haywire)
* Shining Spears. +1 attack. Laser Lance: This weapon is a 2 handed power weapon which adds +2 strength in close combat. In addition, the user gains +1 strength for every 9 inches moved in total in the movement and assault phase immediately prior to striking. Assault grenades.
* Vyper. These are now Jetbikes, no longer vehicles. Guardian Jetbike profile +1 wound (two crew members) and is armed with a Shuriken Cannon. Cost of all weapons reduced by 5 points.<These are similar to SMurf bikes, but trades the grenades and +1 to all stats for -5 points and being a jetbike instead of a bike> All Vypers must be identically equipped.

Heavy Support
* Falcon. This unit has Crystal Targeting Matrix, and is capable of firing one additional weapon than it normally would. <Straight up POTMS>
* Fire Prism. No further alterations needed. Three fire prisms may be purchased as a squadron, however, they function as independent units for all game purposes.
* Nightspinner. 100 points per model.
* Wraithlord. Wraithsword adds +1 attack, but does not add re-roll to hit. Multiple weapons of the same kind are not twin-linked. May take two Wraithsword. 2+ armor save (protects against the ubiquitous krak missle, but lascannons & rending still bypass.
* Dark Reapers. 30 points per model. +1 attack. Add Relentless. Exarch option: Tempest Launcher is no longer barrage. 2+ armor save (still T3, still just 5 of them, not OP)

I'm going to try and summaries things that are approaching a consensus within the recent summaries.

Codex-wide Special Rules.
Fleet of Foot - Avatar, Scorpions, Spiders, (Eldrad), etc receive it as well. Wraiths do not.
Conceal - Adds a stealth effect.
Aspect Warriors - gain one base attack.
Exarchs and Warlocks - these are all mandatory.

Weapons and items
Shuriken Catapults - Range 18"

HQ
Phoenix Lords - One squad of their aspect become scoring. One way or another.
Warlock - Spiritseer upgrade also provides better movement for Wraiths (either S&P->Relentless or +Fleet)

Elite


Troop
Support Weapon Platform - either integration into Guardian Defender or move to this position.
Support Weapon Platform (Shadow Weaver) - Monofilament
Support Weapon Platform (Vibro Cannon) - Ignores cover
(Guardian - 18" Catapults)
Dire Avenger - Stronger shots (S5?)

Fast Attack
War Walker - moved here
Warp Spiders - shooting weapon is monofilament

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers - Crack Shot combats cover saves for the entire unit. Either re-roll or completely.
Dark Reapers - More team-oriented abilities on exarch
Dark Reapers - Relentless
Falcon - Crystal Targeting Matrix (POTMS)
Wraithlord - No twin-linking
Wraithlord - Capable of taking dual sword

Stuff that are worth discussing
Banshees - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low?
Banshees - With an extra attack, would they still need more strength?
Banshees - Should they have counter-attack as base?
Exarchs - Several exarchs need their abilities looked at.
Scorpions - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low?
Scorpions - With Banshees having an extra attack, the Scorpions is less ahead in the number of attacks, are they still comparatively viable?
Scorpions - Should they have Infiltrate as base?
Shining Spears - With an extra attack, do they need further buffs?
Swooping Hawks - Are we settled on their counter-vehicle role?
Swooping Hawks - Counter-vehicle is a bit slim of a role, their out-of-role secondary - anti-MEQ or anti-GEQ? (Forgeworld has set the precedent that Haywire weapons are low strength with good armour piercing)
Swooping Hawks - These, more than any other Eldar jump infantry, could use something that allows them to avoid standing all in a small blast formation.
Wraithguard - D-weaponry with high rate of fire - good idea or not?
Wraithguard - Melee weapon power weapon?
Wraithguard - More survivability? How?
Wraithguard - All of the above? And how much would that cost?

Guardians. Again.
<Standard profile> 55 points.
Squad: Four Guardians and one Warlock.
Weapon: Shuriken Catapult.
Upgrades:
* Up to five additional Guardians may be added to the unit for +8 points per model
* Any model in the squad may exchange their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Monofilament Edge (force re-roll armour saves) at no additional cost.
* For every three Guardians in the unit, one model may replace their weapons with a special weapon from the following list: Fusion Gun (+5 points), Flamer (+5 points), Shuriken Cannon platform (+5 points) etc
* Warlock may choose one Warlock power from (etc)
* One squad of Guardians may be upgraded to Black Guardians at +2 points per model, Black Guardians receive a bonus to Weapon Skill, Ballistics Skill, and Initiative of +1.
* The squad may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

...and then you get support weapon squad as a troop choice.

<Further edits may be added...>

lots of cool ideas

Comments in orange, changes are crossed out and suggestions are written after each strike out.

Mahtamori wrote:
Stuff that are worth discussing
Banshees - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low? I wouldn't think an extra attack is needed, IMO they'd be better off with a few S4 than a lot of S3
Banshees - With an extra attack, would they still need more strength? See above
Banshees - Should they have counter-attack Furious Charge as base? Yes
Exarchs - Several exarchs need their abilities looked at. Yes
Scorpions - With an extra attack, is 16 points too low? It wouldnt be too low I don't think, It just depends if we give them USR's that the points might have to be increased
Scorpions - With Banshees having an extra attack, the Scorpions is less ahead in the number of attacks, are they still comparatively viable? See previous points
Scorpions - Should they have Infiltrate as base? If the points are increased then I think it would make sense
Shining Spears - With an extra attack, do they need further buffs? hit and run 18" rather than 3D6"?
Swooping Hawks - Are we settled on their counter-vehicle role? To make life easier, yes. Maybe make them anti artillery? so they drop in in the backfield and mess up basalisk's ect?
Swooping Hawks - Counter-vehicle is a bit slim of a role, their out-of-role secondary - anti-MEQ or anti-GEQ? (Forgeworld has set the precedent that Haywire weapons are low strength with good armour piercing)
Swooping Hawks - These, more than any other Eldar jump infantry, could use something that allows them to avoid standing all in a small blast formation. "All models must be depoyed withing 6" of the first deep striking model, rather than in base to base"?
Wraithguard - D-weaponry with high rate of fire - good idea or not?
Wraithguard - Melee weapon power weapon?
Wraithguard - More survivability? How?
Wraithguard - All of the above? And how much would that cost? I'd leave them as is, but with the Wraith rule posted above. Poisoned weapons/ snipers all wound on 6+ and have FNP

Guardians. Again.
<Standard profile> 60 points.
Squad: Four Five Guardians and one Warlock.
Weapon: Shuriken Catapult.
Upgrades:
* Up to five additional Guardians may be added to the unit for +8 points per model
* Any model in the squad may exchange their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and a Monofilament Edge (force re-roll armour saves) at no additional cost.
* For every three five Guardians in the unit, one model may replace their weapons with a special weapon from the following list: Fusion Gun (+5 points), Flamer (+5 points), Shuriken Cannon platform (+5 points) etc
*If a unit includes 2 heavy weapons platforms they may both be replaced by a single support platform for x points
* Warlock may choose one Warlock power from (etc)
* One squad of Guardians may be upgraded to Black Guardians at +2 points per model, Black Guardians receive a bonus to Weapon Skill, Ballistics Skill, and Initiative of +1.
* The squad may take a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.

...and then you get support weapon squad as a troop choice.

<Further edits may be added...>

Maybe Farseers able to use a Web Way Portal because really DE can so why can't normal Eldar.

Mahtamori wrote:Aspect Warriors not elite enough - Essentially, they're pants. In a universe where a Space Marine is a standard troop and you compare to Eldar Aspect Warriors, these fanatical, borderline sadistical, warrior monks have poor stats. +1A +1I for all of them and maybe souped up weapons for shooting aspects. Dire Avengers as troops is looking dubious at this stage, though. Naturally this leads to cost revamps. Duh.

* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. +1 attack. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost.

Gwyidion wrote:
* Scorpions. 18 points per model. Natural S4, +1 attack. Add: Infiltrate, Fleet of Foot.
* Banshees. 18 points per model. +1 attack.
* Fire Dragons. 16 points per model. May replace Fusion Guns with Flamers at no additional cost. Fusion Gun: S8, Ap1, R12" Melta 1, Fusion (Fusion: Add 6" to maximum range of weapon when determining range for purposes of the Melta rule)
* Dire Avengers. 12 points per model. +1 attack. Dire Avenger Catapult is more powerful and fires shurikens with higher density, resulting in S5.

partially agree that Aspect Warriors should have 2 attacks, dont know about Init 6, IMHO 5 is high enough.
it should not be a free upgrade though. Looking at rules around the game, +1 attack is typically +3 or 4 points per model, even on shooty squads like DE trueborn.

seeing that; keeping FD, one of the best units in the current dex the same cost but giving them +1 attack, more weapon options, and better melta rules seems OP.
similarly taking DA, a unit already taken by most Eldar armies currently and adding +1 attack and +1 Str weapons for no additonal cost also seems OP.

with +1 attack only, I would say Banshees 20 points, Scorpions 19 points DA 15 points FD 19 points. No additional melta rules or flamers. With those costs on DA and FD, you might not WANT +1 attack on all aspect warriors.

look at DE trueborn for a second. 12 points instead of 9 and they get +1Ld and +1attack. With a blaster(most often worse than a meltagun) they are 27 points each with worse armor than firedragons. FD for 19 points with +1 attack would still be a very good unit.


on another note while thinking about FD for a second. What about swapping out their meltaguns for heat lances for a mild reduction in points? Better range, lower strenght, lance rules. IMHO the heat lance should be str7, like the DL/BL is -1 from a lascannon. Anyway just a thought.

The Avatar has to go up in points, although I play Eldar I have to admit that 155 points for an Avatar is too cheap.

If you take a Farseer with Fortune as well it becomes seriously hard.

Mahtamori wrote:Psychic powers:
* Mind War removes one non-vehicle model within 18" and line of sight, regardless of toughness or wounds, the mind is weaker than the body. Allows invulnerable saves only.

totally OP

compare to Gift of Chaos, requires a T test, 6" range has to be used at the beginning of the turn. Doesnt allow ++ saves, but still. Something that can remove a 250+ point character and has a threat range of 32"(falcon12 disembark2 range18) with no test at all is WAY TOO GOOD.

Exergy wrote:[

seeing that; keeping FD, one of the best units in the current dex the same cost but giving them +1 attack, more weapon options, and better melta rules seems OP.
similarly taking DA, a unit already taken by most Eldar armies currently and adding +1 attack and +1 Str weapons for no additonal cost also seems OP.

DA: a unit so good that it hardly ever sees the tabletop except as a 5-man upgrade to a tank for scoring status. Calling a T3 4+ sv unit OP when they have S5 Assault 2 weapons and 2A base is... well, flatly wrong.
FD: I don't think they should have flamers, and if i left it in it was a mistake, but giving FD another attack is a useless upgrade for them, and giving them the Fusion rule is a direct fix to the problem of losing FDs in vehicle explosions. It does nothing but allow them to melta vehicles from further away. They are still marines with worse saves, -1 S/T, and a melta gun. Not op.

Exergy wrote:

compare to Gift of Chaos, requires a T test, 6" range has to be used at the beginning of the turn. Doesnt allow ++ saves, but still. Something that can remove a 250+ point character and has a threat range of 32"(falcon12 disembark2 range18) with no test at all is WAY TOO GOOD.

Jaws of the World Wolf.

'nuf said.

Gwyidion wrote:
DA: a unit so good that it hardly ever sees the tabletop except as a 5-man upgrade to a tank for scoring status. Calling a T3 4+ sv unit OP when they have S5 Assault 2 weapons and 2A base is... well, flatly wrong.
FD: I don't think they should have flamers, and if i left it in it was a mistake, but giving FD another attack is a useless upgrade for them, and giving them the Fusion rule is a direct fix to the problem of losing FDs in vehicle explosions. It does nothing but allow them to melta vehicles from further away. They are still marines with worse saves, -1 S/T, and a melta gun. Not op.

when they are 12 points and flatly better than anything in any army near them they are OP. Tau firewarriors are 10 points, have str5 weapon and a 4+ save too. But they have -2WS, -1BS, -3Init, -1A,-1Ld and no fleet. DE trueborn are 12 points, they have power from pain and night vision. Exact same statline as what you are proposing but their guns are worse, they have a 5+ save and are an elite choice.

Giving FD another attack is not useless. FD are Init 5, as of now they are vunerable to assault, but with another attack they become less so. Giving them more melta range makes a powerful unit more powerful. A SM with a meltagun is 26 points and has 1 attack. You suggest -1Str T and save but +1 attack and Init is worth 10 points less(40% discount!) OP

Gwyidion wrote:
Jaws of the World Wolf.

'nuf said.

Jaws requires an inititive test. Most expensive characters have inititive 5 or so, meaning they pass 82% of the time. Compare this to a proposed autofail. Yeah thats the same, clearly.

It is, because if the opponent doesn't bring psychic defense, he deserves to lose whatever mind war is pointed at.

Don't want to get screwed by JOTWW, don't line up, don't bring low-I characters, etc.

Don't want to get mind war'd, bring a hood or 3.

Using the Tau book as a comparison is incredibly specious, as it is a notoriously poorly designed, written, and priced book.

And good job getting rid of all of the other special rules those 26 pt SM get for those 10 points. ATSKNF is only one of the best rules in the entire game.

It seems like xenos players have developed an inferiority complex when it comes to even wishlisting their own rules upgrades.

If GW takes your pricing rec's, we'll be stuck with another codex of overpriced units which will severely hamper eldar listbuilding for years to come.