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Str 5 Avenger Shuriken Catapults would be very VERY NICE. I would take a 2 point increase or MAYBE even a 3+ point increase for it

So some of my planned edits didn't really happen.

While adding +1A across the board to all Aspect Warriors will inflate the price somewhat, keep in mind discussing the Fire Dragons and comparing them to other armies that, unlike most units with melta weapons Fire Dragons are ALL melta weapons.
A 27 point space marine is tougher than a Fire Dragon, but above all his comrades do not all carry melta weapons. While this makes the Space Marine worse in a void against a vehicle, the Space Marine's squad is decisively better in general since you do not have to point them at enemies.
Essentially, the Fire Dragons will have to have a discount since they can't opt to take Bolters, Heavy Bolters and a Flamer as well. Versatility has it's advantages and them marines pay for that.
Or, while Fire Dragons are a rock, the Space Marine squad with the melta weapon is a rock and a paper.

As was said, Tau codex should be strictly out of the question comparing to, for obvious reasons

Exergy, Gwydion: Yes, I intentionally made Mind War ridiculous for the simple fact of JOTWW and similar stupid psychic power. My version of Mind War would be stupid simply because you CAN target Mephiston with little risk of failing.
JOTWW is poorly designed because it hits armies unequally, though. Some armies have naturally lower initiative on their high-cost heroes, while Eldar armies have naturally high imitative on all their models. At the core of it, initiative is a low-value stat simply because it's not meant as a defense.
Now, the problem with Mind War is that since it is a single-model-only spell, it needs to be powerful, but make it too powerful and you'll simply make it a no-heroes-allowed spell (not that I mind, since I think it should be about tactics and not about who can rhino-up the best hero fastest)
As I see it, Mind War needs to be a near-guaranteed kill or it needs to do something entirely different.

I've suggested it before, I think;
Mind War - one enemy unit within 18" have all their beneficial leadership rules suppressed until the beginning of the Eldar player's next player turn. This explicitly do not negate instinctive behaviour, but the unit will take any leadership tests like a unit with no special rules using the most common leadership value in the unit.
(Essentially designed to crush Marine ATSKNF, Fearless in general, Ork Mobs, Tyranid Synapse, etc)

Dire Avengers.
While the concept of a S5 catapult isn't at all outlandish, I am left feeling a bit... worried... how it'll interact with Bladestorm.
I feel the differentiation is a good one between them and Guardians as far as weaponry goes, but, again, Bladestorm...

I've thought of the ASC becoming S5, but R12", to make the DAs a very mechanized choice of infantry.

And as for how it interacts with bladestorm, i think it interacts fine - a bladestorm from a full DA squad should rip up enemies.

30 BS4 shots = 20 hits,
S4 vs T4 = 10 wounds, 3.33 dead marines
S5 vs T4 = 14 wounds (ish), so about 5 dead marines.
S4 w/doom: 15 wounds, 5 dead marines.
S5 w/doom: 18 wounds, 6 dead marines.

In other words, if you take the serpent, a fully kitted DA squad, and apply a farseer to a marine squad, you can pretty well mess it up (not at all impossible to kill one with bad rolling for the armor saves). At this point, we're talking well over 300 points of models dedicated to a single 10 man marine squad and it still isn't dead. This isn't overpowered. You are hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's.

Mind war - perhaps have the 'remove from play' only trigger on an opposed leadership roll (so, as now, but if you lose, you just die, no saves or EW allowed).

I've also suggested a few times moving mind war to another mechanic entirely:

I feel that eldar really suffer from having so many of their psychic powers negated by hoods and the like - it makes it difficult to play a list which centers around fortune, as, so often, if fortune is blocked, you lose 500 points of investment (be it wraithguard or a seer-council). In my opinion, the eldar need a method of combating psychic defense. We are premier psychic race, we alone should be able to resist anti-psyker rules.

My thought:

Mind War (special rule on all farseer variants - doesn't need to be bought): At any time a psychic power is attempted to be negated, nullified, or in any way cancelled, use the following mechanic in place of the normal process. Both models in question roll a single D6 and add their leadership. If the opponent wins, the farseer's power is cancelled as normal. If the farseer wins, the opponents model suffers the difference between the two totals in automatic wounds, with only invulnerable saves allowed.

What this does: All marine codicies with the hoods and staves that allow them to nullify psychic powers are severely hampered when negating eldar powers (as it should be, per fluff). They can try to negate them, but if they lose, their psyker is pretty much toast. I think it reflects nicely on the tabletop: Human psykers would probably prefer to simply not try to fight an eldar psyker, as it is far too dangerous.

What this doesn't do: it doesn't protect against mechanics which modify the test itself, such as all ways tyranids cause problems to eldar. This is nice and fluffy, as, historically, the tyranids have been a serious foe to the eldar.

Farseer power: Stifle - Range 36"
Instead of attacking the physical being, a farseer may find it more benificial to destroy or otherwise debilitate one of the enemies pieces of equiptment, in situations when the enemy wielding them cannot (or shouldn't from a tactical point of view) be killed.
Select one piece of wargear belonging to a model within range and roll a D6, on a 5+ the selected piece of equiptment cannot be used for the rest of the game.

Re:Mind War - I'm really not a fan of the "removes the model from play" rules, but imo, if wolves can do it with a psychic power then eldar should at least be able to match it. How about "The targeted model must take a wounds test (using the number of wound they currenty have remaining, not the original number in their profile), If they fail this test they are automaticaly removed from play as a casualty unless they pass an invulnerable save (models without an invulnerable save automatically count as having failed).

TheWildHost wrote:Str 5 Avenger Shuriken Catapults would be very VERY NICE. I would take a 2 point increase or MAYBE even a 3+ point increase for it

S4 is fine, if Dire Avengers had S5 Then it would be unfair, seeing as you are hitting and wounding T4 on 3's and even killing armies such as nids and guard on 2's. The BS4 means they shouldn't have S5 catapaults.

Unfair is not the word you want to use, What I am Sugesting is a 14-15 point Dire Avenger, Tau Have A 35(I think)Inch range And Rapid fire but have bs 3 they are ten points so a unit with an 18 inch range Str5 Assult Weapons Seems fine to me

TheWildHost wrote:Unfair is not the word you want to use, What I am Sugesting is a 14-15 point Dire Avenger, Tau Have A 35(I think)Inch range And Rapid fire but have bs 3 they are ten points so a unit with an 18 inch range Str5 Assult Weapons Seems fine to me

The Tau have a 30" Range, But You're Forgetting yes you do have an 18" Ranged weapon but you can assault after you fire it, and you have an ability like bladestorm so with BS4 you would be hitting 2/3rd's of the time and wounding space marines 2/3's of the time with re-rolls, now that is not right for 15 points. Tau have 1 S5 shot each at a 30" range so 6 should hit, and 3-4 should wound, far less what a dire avenger would have.

I will post a reply later i have to go to school

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TheWildHost wrote:Unfair is not the word you want to use, What I am Sugesting is a 14-15 point Dire Avenger, Tau Have A 35(I think)Inch range And Rapid fire but have bs 3 they are ten points so a unit with an 18 inch range Str5 Assult Weapons Seems fine to me

The Tau have a 30" Range, But You're Forgetting yes you do have an 18" Ranged weapon but you can assault after you fire it, and you have an ability like bladestorm so with BS4 you would be hitting 2/3rd's of the time and wounding space marines 2/3's of the time with re-rolls, now that is not right for 15 points. Tau have 1 S5 shot each at a 30" range so 6 should hit, and 3-4 should wound, far less what a dire avenger would have.

Using Tau as a benchmark when considering an up to date/new codex probably isn't a good idea tbh, they are even more in need of an update than Eldar

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TheWildHost wrote:Unfair is not the word you want to use, What I am Sugesting is a 14-15 point Dire Avenger, Tau Have A 35(I think)Inch range And Rapid fire but have bs 3 they are ten points so a unit with an 18 inch range Str5 Assult Weapons Seems fine to me

The Tau have a 30" Range, But You're Forgetting yes you do have an 18" Ranged weapon but you can assault after you fire it, and you have an ability like bladestorm so with BS4 you would be hitting 2/3rd's of the time and wounding space marines 2/3's of the time with re-rolls, now that is not right for 15 points. Tau have 1 S5 shot each at a 30" range so 6 should hit, and 3-4 should wound, far less what a dire avenger would have.

Using Tau as a benchmark when considering an up to date/new codex probably isn't a good idea tbh, they are even more in need of an update than Eldar

Completely True I'm hugely anticipating a new codex for them

Gwyidion wrote:It is, because if the opponent doesn't bring psychic defense, he deserves to lose whatever mind war is pointed at.

Don't want to get screwed by JOTWW, don't line up, don't bring low-I characters, etc.

Don't want to get mind war'd, bring a hood or 3.

Half the armies in the game have no Psykic defense. So what you are saying is that Eldar should autowin against half the game.


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Gorechild wrote:Re:Mind War - I'm really not a fan of the "removes the model from play" rules, but imo, if wolves can do it with a psychic power then eldar should at least be able to match it. How about "The targeted model must take a wounds test (using the number of wound they currenty have remaining, not the original number in their profile), If they fail this test they are automaticaly removed from play as a casualty unless they pass an invulnerable save (models without an invulnerable save automatically count as having failed).

so sort of test, fine

autofail as suggested previously is OP


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:Exergy, Gwydion: Yes, I intentionally made Mind War ridiculous for the simple fact of JOTWW and similar stupid psychic power. My version of Mind War would be stupid simply because you CAN target Mephiston with little risk of failing.
JOTWW is poorly designed because it hits armies unequally, though. Some armies have naturally lower initiative on their high-cost heroes, while Eldar armies have naturally high imitative on all their models. At the core of it, initiative is a low-value stat simply because it's not meant as a defense.
Now, the problem with Mind War is that since it is a single-model-only spell, it needs to be powerful, but make it too powerful and you'll simply make it a no-heroes-allowed spell (not that I mind, since I think it should be about tactics and not about who can rhino-up the best hero fastest)
As I see it, Mind War needs to be a near-guaranteed kill or it needs to do something entirely different.

Mephisto is not the problem, he is not an IC so things that can kill him are plenty, thats the point.

but being able to kill abadon, gazzy, and vect with absolutely no chance of failure is OP. Those armies cannot take any psykic defense and shouldnt autolose.

I agree JOTWW is a bad power, it rapes orks for no reason and is next to useless against Eldar.
Gift of Chaos is crazy good against DE(toughness test, ignores shadowfields) but kinda sucky against Orks(T5) and mostly nulified against SM because of hoods.
Personally I think the Psykic phase is getting out of control. The powers are crazy powerful, virutally the only reason now to take a high point character is if he has game changing psykic powers. Those powers virually all autocast with no real threat from perils of the warp unless there is psykic defense, which in most cases is a HARD counter but is only availible to half the armies in the game. Its just dumb. The answer, "You should have taken a hood or 3 is stupid as most armies cannot take hoods and have no psykic defense. I suppose one response to this would be, well then make even crazier psykic powers until the game breaks and they need to rewrite the rules for 6th edition ASAP with a new psykic rules. Instead I think restraint should still be used in designing new rules to try and adjust the game slowly.

This is an issue for another thread as it has little to do with Eldar specifically. Excuse my rant. I simply want there to be SOME sort of test on mindwar. Maybe Ld test on 3d6 or be removed. Maybe a WS test or a wounds test, or a Init AND T test. Personally I dont even know if I like it instant killing. Its a mind war, it does damage. It could kill or it could leave someone wounded, half strength.

Exergy wrote:Its a mind war, it does damage. It could kill or it could leave someone wounded, half strength.

It effectvely destroys the targets mind, IMO it woud be all or nothing.

The logic behind my wounds test suggestion was that if a model is wounded then they would be less likely to resist a farseer being able to blow up their brain telepathicly.
The problem with basing these tests on some stats causes bias between different armies (why would an eldar be more likely to die from mind war than a space marine?).

Gorechild wrote:
It effectvely destroys the targets mind, IMO it woud be all or nothing.

The logic behind my wounds test suggestion was that if a model is wounded then they would be less likely to resist a farseer being able to blow up their brain telepathicly.
The problem with basing these tests on some stats causes bias between different armies (why would an eldar be more likely to die from mind war than a space marine?).

it could leave people brain damaged, ie wounded
also I think a farseer would be familiar with Eldar minds, better able to cripple them.

Auto win psyker powers should only affect a single enemy army.

It is totally ok for SW with JOTWW to completely autowin against Tyranids, but since our autowin power affects more than 1 army, it is OP.

WTF ever.

Also, check the math-hammer on the S5 cats above. They are not at all overpowered.

A small point: my Mind War did allow for a invulnerable save. I'm nothing but reasonable

Mind War would not necessarily destroy a target's mind, it could also leave them mentally crippled or be a psychic blast (see: D&D Illithids / Mind Flayers)

I think we return time and again to the point where a Farseer is consistently taken for their utility and their offensive capacity is left in a state of total indecision. Either you want it to be on par with the others in the appendix measurement competition, or you want Farseers to remain uniquely supportive.

Let's explore that one. Again.
Mind War - destroyed. Eldritch Storm - destroyed.

New power - Fear
A sense of foreboding dread sets in as the Farseer reaches out with his mind, brushing against all enemies within 18" of the Farseer. As visions of their own demise alternates with disembodied sounds that should not be, any afflicted squad makes an immediate morale test.

New power - Impede
Loosening the laws of physics through sheer will of mind, the Farseer is able to subtly disrupt the way the air and ground around an enemy squad within 18" behaves, the afflicted squad is subjected to both difficult and dangerous terrain until the beginning of the Farseer's next player phase as the afflicted squad finds otherwise inert pebbles suddenly dropping down into the sky and have their feet sink into otherwise solid rock.

P.S. I find myself toying with the thought of how an Eldar army could look like in the scenario where Ynnead has been born too early, and failed to fulfil the prophecy, leaving the Eldar race with a patron deity of death. Essentially, Eldar takes a turn for the morbid and makes Iyanden necromancy seem light-weight. Instead of Guardians I see frail, soul-crystal driven, wraith-bodies. Low cost shuriken catapult (current stats) husks, decidedly more slim than Guardians, no real abdomen, but the aesthetics vastly different from Necron (where Necron are slouching and hateful, Eldar are straight-backed and proud and also mix the living dead with the living).

I have no problem of removing all directly offensive powers from a farseer entirely. Though eldritch storm is fun from a fluff and awesome-ness standpoint, it is difficult to represent on the tabletop.

I still think my suggestion for Mind War is a good one, which will also help Eldar combat the proliferation of psychic defense, which, in my opinion, they should.

As to your post-script, Maht... cool idea, but that sounds like a major re-launch of the Eldar, and I don't feel like thats necessary (though it would be cool).

I like the Fear power, though it is a little dark for eldar.

I like the idea of a farseer sort of borrowing from a harlequin theme:

Confuse:
The Farseer thins the veil between the real world and the warp all around him, causing hellish landscapes and gruesome manifestations of warp entities to fade in and out of existence. Minds of exceptional power or training can have the strength to pierce these haunting visions, but the common mind will quail before the horrors presented by the Warp.

Each enemy unit with a model within 18" of the farseer takes a leadership test at a -X modifier. If they pass, the unit may act as normal. If they fail, the unit may take no action in the controlling player's next player turn. If the unit contains a psyker, they take the test with no modifier. If the unit is engaged in combat (and fails the leadership test), they lose one attack (to a minimum of one), as they strike out at the phantom visions.

The Guile of the Eldar:
Cast at the beginning of the eldar player's movement phase. Lasts until the start of the next eldar player turn. The Eldar are regarded galaxy-wide as a race of unparalleled guile, treachery, and cunning. An Eldar farseer is not above sinking psychic tendrils into the mind of his enemy to instill doubt, paranoia, and caution. While this power is active, enemy units with a model within 18" of the farseer may not sweeping advance in close combat, and count as being in difficult terrain for all movement purposes.

Originally I called it Whispers of Fate, but changed it to Fear to better emulate the simplicity in naming of the other Eldar powers.

The Ynnead Eldar is a toy, not something for this thread, but if I feel I have 5 hours to waste I might put together an article. Sure, it's a re-launch. Major re-write, but you could do a lot of fun stuff. Such as remove Guardians as a concept completely.

I have an idea for Fire Dragons. I would give them WS3 and BS5 to show that they are a shooty only unit. Also, as an option to make them cheaper and more versatile, allow any number of models to exchange their Fusion Gun with a Flamer for a 4 point drop per model. Thoughts?

I don't think that allowing fire dragons to swap out their melta guns for flamers at all is a good idea - much less for a points drop. They are already the most-taken elites choice. Allowing them to have flamers as well as melta weapons makes them so flexible in terms of AT and anti-horde.... it is just too crazy good.

I agree, They Should on the other hand SHOULD make a flamer unit for Anti-Horde

Having a flamer aspect makes for an odd naming convention. Fire Dragons not flamers? However, we could revive the discussion of template Warp Spiders, monofilament low strength rending templates. Naturally this makes them more expensive, and very volatile.
At a kill-range of about 6", the Warp Spiders would expose themselves to considerable risk, even with their improved armour, hit & run, and second jump.

Warp Spider. Standard Aspect profile. ~25 points per model.
Death Spinner. Template S3 AP6 Assault 1, Rending, Monofilament.

A S3 AP6 weapon is enough to punch quite a significant amount of holes in any horde, but the real killer there is monofilament. Rending also makes it possible to destroy other, high point, targets, but less optimal. Is rending good to have on a mass-template unit?

The big question, though, is how it'd fit in with the rest. We go around in circles with the Swooping Hawks and Warp Spider situation (both being anti-horde-ish). With a template weapon for Spiders, the Hawks would land at long-range and Spiders at short range.
Is this enough separation? I feel that one or the other will not be used unless they are separated further into different roles.

May have been mentioned already, but where is the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord? Also, bump the Avatar's Strength and Toughness, he's a god of war, it's about time he started acting like one.


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Gwyidion wrote:I don't think that allowing fire dragons to swap out their melta guns for flamers at all is a good idea - much less for a points drop. They are already the most-taken elites choice. Allowing them to have flamers as well as melta weapons makes them so flexible in terms of AT and anti-horde.... it is just too crazy good.

What, and an entire unit of meltas isn't?

Mordoskul wrote:May have been mentioned already, but where is the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord? Also, bump the Avatar's Strength and Toughness, he's a god of war, it's about time he started acting like one.

Yeah, There's not much that you can do to make him a beast in CC in the terms of Power Weapon wise unlike Eldar's Darker Kin

May have been mentioned already, but where is the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord?

We spoke about that earlier, I suggested that his name could be Ifefari (which roughly means the Watcher in the Void). Not sure what he would have though, I suppose that depends pretty much on how the Warp Spiders becomes. Speaking of them, I think that making Death Spinners template weapons is a pretty good idea.

reidy1113 wrote:I have an idea for Fire Dragons. I would give them WS3 and BS5 to show that they are a shooty only unit. Also, as an option to make them cheaper and more versatile, allow any number of models to exchange their Fusion Gun with a Flamer for a 4 point drop per model. Thoughts?

12 points per model is stupid, actually completely stupid. At 16 points they are already the best anti tank in the game and you want to make them cheaper AND more versatile?!?! Versatility is the last thing we should be aiming for with Aspect Warriors, the whole point of Eldar is that each unit does only one thing, it does it perfectly but sucks at everything else. It's like saying "Yeah Banshee's are really good in combat, but what they really need is a 32" S4 Heavy 4 gun". If you want a versatile army, then you shouldn't have picked Eldar.

Gwyidion wrote:I don't think that allowing fire dragons to swap out their melta guns for flamers at all is a good idea - much less for a points drop. They are already the most-taken elites choice. Allowing them to have flamers as well as melta weapons makes them so flexible in terms of AT and anti-horde.... it is just too crazy good.

This man talks sense

TheWildHost wrote:I agree, They Should on the other hand SHOULD make a flamer unit for Anti-Horde

IMO the anti-horde should be striking scorpions role (not with flamers though), they already have the basics needed to do it successfully. A long way back I suggested Warp Spiders having a S2 AP6 assault 1 flamer weapon with the mono filament wire rule, but without limiting them to a squad of 5, we were struggling to find a way to balance them. Anyone like that idea? or have any idea how we might be able to make it more reasonable?

I think the fix is not to improve warp spiders they are viable right now. Adding the monofilament rule (next move is from dangerous terrain) would increase them enough.

If we are going to consider templates, go to small blast with swooping hawks S3 AP6 grenade or haywire grenade.
Good enough. Lets not fix what is viable and leave crap units still crappy.

Personally fast moving template weapons are way OP.
Consider, you move a unit of 10 warp spiders in range of a marine unit. Each template covers about 6 men so 60 hits at 3 S. 10 are rending, dead marine unit. Today 20 shots 14 hit, 12 wound, 4 dead marines. BTW, rending and the volume of hits will make terminators die just as fast!!!

A template based spider, while I will be happy to play them will make spiders into the anti-personnel killers and just add a third personnel choice to fire dragons and dire avengers.

Ok, template with rending I see now is a bit op. Maybe that could be an exarch weapon?

I see why there is no Spider PL but his armor is what matters not his soul so maybe rangers could find it who knows.
Scorpions for anti hord would be OK but I would feel more comfortable with something with more hits(10 man sqaud chargin is what 4 Attacks each?)

Yeah, the Scorpion exarchs really need to catch some quality time with the Dire Avenger exarchs and learn how to Defend against return attacks - preferably in a way that's effective against A1 models as well. Scorpions in general need to spend time with the clowns - as does Banshees.

We just doubled back on a relateively recent discussion here, though, but keep in mind when proceding that A2 Banshees versus A2 Scorpions makes Scorpions more or less useless if the Banshees also gain more strength - however much Banshees need it.

Still need to iron out what Hawks are good for and what Spiders are for

In the Small year I have played eldar, I don't have half a friken clue