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I think we hit gold with the 'haywire' weapon type for hawks. Hawks as anti-tank is great. Hawks as anti-infantry also great. I think they should not be good in combat at all. Hawks should be the harassment FA aspect, spiders should be the closer-in, mix it up FA aspect, and spears should be the kill-it-dead FA aspect.

As for hawks, I think this sort of weapon profile: R24" S3 Ap5 Assault 3, Haywire, with

Haywire - When a model targets a vehicle using a weapon with type: haywire, roll a single to-hit roll. If the vehicle is hit, roll on the following table to determine the result:
1- no effect
2-4 glancing hit
5-6 penetrating hit.

This gives the hawks decent AT, good anti-horde, and avoids having a true multiple-profile weapon, which I feel are sort of clumsy.

Then for hawks:
Skyleap = Turboboost USR
Hawk Wings: permanent 4+ cover save

Spiders:

The weapon is mostly ok. In fact, the weapon is rather brutal. Add AP6, so that it is better against tanks. Also add monofilament to the weapon, so they act as a disruptor.

Improved mobility: Instead of 2d6", lose a guy on doubles, make the rule, 1d6+6", and no losses unless you end in impassable."

Second for spiders, make them better in assault - but only against normal and soft targets - Hit and run is a default squad power.
2 A base, powerblades remains as an option of exarch.

I like the haywire idea, but only the idea of it. 30 haywire shots from 24" would flood ebay with vehicles. It would singlehandedly change the game away from mech.

I'd tend to agree with 40kRW. Simply ripping the haywire straight from Forgeworld seems better (although, shorter range and assault, naturally)
Warp Spiders are brutal against infantry, but less so against MEQ, more annoying in that case. With long range and low AP, Hawks can position themselves to take potshots at MEQ when there aren't vehicles around, but due to the low strength it won't be point-efficient - but it does give them something to do against Tyranids.

Spiders having monofilament and hit & run would be golden for harassment, especially since pursuing the Spiders would force the opponent to risk the monofilament after they make their H&R.
I feel the difficulty there is more along the line of "what about exarch powers"

40,000 Reasons Why wrote:I like the haywire idea, but only the idea of it. 30 haywire shots from 24" would flood ebay with vehicles. It would singlehandedly change the game away from mech.

Gwyidion wrote:When a model targets a vehicle using a weapon with type: haywire, roll a single to-hit roll.

I'm well aware. That is why it is 10 shots, not 30.

10 shots, 6 hits, 1-2 pens per shooting phase. The unit would no doubt cost over 200 pts, and is only T3 infantry with a 4+ save. Sure, they are basically impossible to catch in CC, or to rapidfire, but they won't last if someone wants them to go away.

Mahtamori wrote:
Warp Spiders are brutal against infantry, but less so against MEQ, more annoying in that case. With long range and low AP, Hawks can position themselves to take potshots at MEQ when there aren't vehicles around, but due to the low strength it won't be point-efficient - but it does give them something to do against Tyranids.

Spiders having monofilament and hit & run would be golden for harassment, especially since pursuing the Spiders would force the opponent to risk the monofilament after they make their H&R.
I feel the difficulty there is more along the line of "what about exarch powers"

I feel that the warp spider's tendency to pile wounds on space marines are what makes them effective. Hitting on 3s and wounding on 2's is just brutal.

I ran into the exarch power problem with both hawks and spiders. Skyleap=turbo is good, but usually there are two powers. If we nix haywire grenades, there's very little reason for intercept at all. For spiders, I could see linking the negating the danger of the assault jump to the exarch, but what else? I don't know.

Possibly give the Spider exarch an ability that let's them use Hit & Run without the initiative test? Or something like bladestorm to give everyone an extra shot.

The bladestormy idea is interesting, but the HnR no-I-test... they're I5 already. I can't remember the last time i've failed a test.

That's true, also kinda unrelated, I just read the last two pages, and this might have come up already, but don't you think Farseers should get Runes of Warding built-in seeing as how Librarians all have built-in psychic hoods?

As for the the spider exarch, maybe he should be able to take furious charge, the strong rush then jumping out seems very spider-y.

Second power for Swooping Hawks: something to reduce their deep strike scatter? Something to allow them to arrive faster from reinforcements?

Examples:

Haste - The exarch guides his squad far above the battlefield and prepares, with near prophetic foresight, to enter the fray. The Exarch's squad rolls for reinforcements as if they were one turn more advanced than the current count, allowing them to deep strike as early as turn 1!

Descent - The exarch and his squad rides the winds and currents as if they were born soaring the skies. Effortlessly the squad descends upon the battlefield. When deep striking, do not roll for scatter, instead place the squad in unit coherency with no model further than 5" from the exarch.

The Hawk Exarch could be upgraded with a weapon that gives 2 shots instead of 1, and maybe lets him reroll 1 die on the haywire table, keep with the theme of an Exarch getting a special weapon.

I was thinking about putting together (actually, refreshing my fandex article) with a bit of standardization:

Guardians.
Standard statline.
Squad size: power of 3 + 1 Warlock.
Special rules: Common only.
Weapon: One weapon set. Upgradable for every one-in-three.
Special equipment: None.

Aspect Warriors.
Standard elite statline.
Squad size: power of 3 + 1 exarch
Special rules: Common special rules plus one extra. Two optional for exarch.
Weapons: One set of ritual weapons. No upgrades for squad, two for exarch.
Special equipment: One item of special equipment.

Examples:

Guardian Jetbikes.
3 Guardians and one Warlock.
Special rules: None applicable.
Up to 3 additional Guardians may be added to the squad.
Weapon: None.
Special equipment: Jetbike.
Options: Every third Guardian may upgrade his jetbike's twin-linked Shuriken Catapult to a Shuriken Cannon for +5 points
Yes, this is an exception, as they have special equipment, but no weapon

Warp Spiders.
4 Warp Spiders and one Warp Spider Exarch.
Special rules: Fleet of foot, hit and run.
Up to 5 additional Warp Spiders may be added to the squad.
Weapons: Death Spinner (r12" S6 Ap6 Assault 2 Monofilament)
Special equipment: Warp Jump Generator (Jump Pack, Warp Jaunt)
Options: Exarch may upgrade his Death Spinner to a Spinnerette Rifle (Ap2 Assault 1) at no cost and/or may purchase Power Blades (count as two power weapons) for +10 points.
Exarch may purchase Warp Crawler (re-roll Warp Jaunt) for +10 points and/or Surprise Assault (treats deep strike rolls as one turn earlier than actually is) for +10 points.

This way the maniblasters and banshee helmets are special equipment, for example. Wraithguard follows Aspect Warrior template. Armour protection is not specifically tampered with. Generally, aspect warriors are better in melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, here's a random thought. When Catapults are S4 Ap5 R18 Assault 2, what if Pistols were S4 Ap5 R12 Pistol 2?

I know this is putting a lot of firepower on the melee units, but they are currently the codex' red headed stepchildren. Does make Eldar prefer to walk and shoot rather than run, though...

This is all sounding great i have just started eldar about 2 months ago and i have thought that the 'dex needs a bit of fine tuning especially the fast attack, guardians and wraithlords. Any way does anybody know when the next dex is meant to be coming out

I think the rumour mill is hinting that Eldar will be one of the earlier codexes to be released during sixth edition (i.e. that we'll see one 2013 or later)

DAMNIT!!!!!!!

Mahtamori wrote:I think the rumour mill is hinting that Eldar will be one of the earlier codexes to be released during sixth edition (i.e. that we'll see one 2013 or later)

TheWildHost wrote:DAMNIT!!!!!!!

That's most definitely a good thing not a bad thing, I would far rather wait a little bit longer and get a codex which is designed for any and all new rules than get a codex right at the end of 5th which may well not adapt very well. Even the codices from the end of 4th, some of which were apparently designed with 5th in mind have been rapidly outdated. While the brainstorming in this topic is interesting it still seems very much like it has 3rd edition thinking as the predominate design theory (and the 4th edition codex is just a copy paste + a couple of tweaks from the 3rd edition codex), 5th is a completely different beast and I have no reason to suspect that 6th will also be a notable change (it may not be big changes to most of the core rules, but there will be enough tweaks and possibly a few new things so that it won't really resemble 5th). Really the Eldar codex needs a complete reboot not an upgrade to dodgy foundations, and doing it in 6th would definitely be better imo.

In the mean time we have Forgeworld stuff to keep us interested anyway.

Powerguy, I agree pretty much.

I'd love for Eldar to be in the box set for 6th, with some new aspect represented.

6th is due next summer as I understand it. Before the London Olympics.

Powerguy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:I think the rumour mill is hinting that Eldar will be one of the earlier codexes to be released during sixth edition (i.e. that we'll see one 2013 or later)

TheWildHost wrote:DAMNIT!!!!!!!

That's most definitely a good thing not a bad thing, I would far rather wait a little bit longer and get a codex which is designed for any and all new rules than get a codex right at the end of 5th which may well not adapt very well. Even the codices from the end of 4th, some of which were apparently designed with 5th in mind have been rapidly outdated. While the brainstorming in this topic is interesting it still seems very much like it has 3rd edition thinking as the predominate design theory (and the 4th edition codex is just a copy paste + a couple of tweaks from the 3rd edition codex), 5th is a completely different beast and I have no reason to suspect that 6th will also be a notable change (it may not be big changes to most of the core rules, but there will be enough tweaks and possibly a few new things so that it won't really resemble 5th). Really the Eldar codex needs a complete reboot not an upgrade to dodgy foundations, and doing it in 6th would definitely be better imo.

In the mean time we have Forgeworld stuff to keep us interested anyway.

This is what I hope for, I don't want a dex that will be outdated 6 months after I make a new army list.

I've written up a bit more of my fandex from what we've covered, I've done all the HQ's except for Mr Avatar.
Any suggestions for him?

there are really two thoughts i have for him

minor upgrades, minor price increase - fleet, eternal warrior, 170 pts

major reboot - higher S/T, b2b hits from flame, multiple weapons, etc.

Gorechild wrote:

Powerguy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:I think the rumour mill is hinting that Eldar will be one of the earlier codexes to be released during sixth edition (i.e. that we'll see one 2013 or later)

TheWildHost wrote:DAMNIT!!!!!!!

That's most definitely a good thing not a bad thing, I would far rather wait a little bit longer and get a codex which is designed for any and all new rules than get a codex right at the end of 5th which may well not adapt very well. Even the codices from the end of 4th, some of which were apparently designed with 5th in mind have been rapidly outdated. While the brainstorming in this topic is interesting it still seems very much like it has 3rd edition thinking as the predominate design theory (and the 4th edition codex is just a copy paste + a couple of tweaks from the 3rd edition codex), 5th is a completely different beast and I have no reason to suspect that 6th will also be a notable change (it may not be big changes to most of the core rules, but there will be enough tweaks and possibly a few new things so that it won't really resemble 5th). Really the Eldar codex needs a complete reboot not an upgrade to dodgy foundations, and doing it in 6th would definitely be better imo.

In the mean time we have Forgeworld stuff to keep us interested anyway.

This is what I hope for, I don't want a dex that will be outdated 6 months after I make a new army list.

I've written up a bit more of my fandex from what we've covered, I've done all the HQ's except for Mr Avatar.
Any suggestions for him?

I think the Avatar's fine, but to me it'd make sense if EW was stuck in for a points increase.

I think the Avatar could use a major boost in ability and point cost. Not to a c'tan level, but I think that a solid 200 point(ish) close combat beast is much more fitting than the sorta meh version we have now.

Heres a rough profile that approximates it
WS10 BS 5 S6 T6 I6 A5 W4 Ld10 2+ 200 points

Wargear: Wailing doom
Daemon: The Avatar counts as a daemon for all intents and purposes. It has the eternal warrior and fearless USR's and a 4+ invulnerable save
War God: The avatar may reroll all failed rolls to hit in close combat.
Inspiring presence: All eldar units that have a model within 12" of the Avatar count as fearless
The wailing doom: The divine weapon of the bloody handed god. It allows him to project his fiery aura as either a melta gun or heavy flamer. If the avatar does not shoot in the shooting phase then it grants him the Furious charge USR for the remainder of the turn

Aura of flame: all enemies assaulting avatar must make dangerous terrain checks. Furthermore the avatar counts as armed with offensive and defensive grenades

Again this is a rough idea as it the point limit. I wanted to make him more on par with a bloodthirster. Hes less mobile and strong than the bloodthirster, but has other strengths

Tortoiseer wrote:I think the Avatar could use a major boost in ability and point cost. Not to a c'tan level, but I think that a solid 200 point(ish) close combat beast is much more fitting than the sorta meh version we have now.

Heres a rough profile that approximates it
WS10 BS 5 S6 T6 I6 A5 W4 Ld10 2+ 200 points

Wargear: Wailing doom
Daemon: The Avatar counts as a daemon for all intents and purposes. It has the eternal warrior and fearless USR's and a 4+ invulnerable save
War God: The avatar may reroll all failed rolls to hit in close combat.
Inspiring presence: All eldar units that have a model within 12" of the Avatar count as fearless
The wailing doom: The divine weapon of the bloody handed god. It allows him to project his fiery aura as either a melta gun or heavy flamer. If the avatar does not shoot in the shooting phase then it grants him the Furious charge USR for the remainder of the turn

Aura of flame: all enemies assaulting avatar must make dangerous terrain checks. Furthermore the avatar counts as armed with offensive and defensive grenades

Again this is a rough idea as it the point limit. I wanted to make him more on par with a bloodthirster. Hes less mobile and strong than the bloodthirster, but has other strengths

I think that would really bring that Avatar up on par with a lot of the other Monsterous creatures and still keep him in line with the Eldar style.

A little off topic, and this might have been propossed before, but perhaps you could dosomething like the new assassins in GK codex and give all the pheniox lords one basic stat line at like

WS 8 BS 8 S4 T4 I6 A4 W3 Ld9 Sv3+


and have the different lords each come with different equpiment that would then focus on there own aspect. They could also have an option to include a unit of their aspect that wouldnt take up a FOC slot.

the stats are just a rough idea i came up with in like 5 minutes.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I think the Avatar's fine, but to me it'd make sense if EW was stuck in for a points increase.

The problem I see is that they are well worth the points IF they are babysat by a fortuneseer, but without it they are a really big target that isn't that hard to kill. I think EW is a "must have" though.

Tortoiseer wrote:I think the Avatar could use a major boost in ability and point cost. Not to a c'tan level, but I think that a solid 200 point(ish) close combat beast is much more fitting than the sorta meh version we have now.

Heres a rough profile that approximates it
WS10 BS 5 S6 T6 I6 A5 W4 Ld10 2+ 200 points

Wargear: Wailing doom
Daemon: The Avatar counts as a daemon for all intents and purposes. It has the eternal warrior and fearless USR's and a 4+ invulnerable save
War God: The avatar may reroll all failed rolls to hit in close combat.
Inspiring presence: All eldar units that have a model within 12" of the Avatar count as fearlessAll friendly units that can draw line of sight to the Avatar gain the Stuborn special rule
The wailing doom: The divine weapon of the bloody handed god. It allows him to project his fiery aura as either a melta gun or heavy flamer. If the avatar does not shoot in the shooting phase then it grants him the Furious charge USR for the remainder of the turn Keep it as it is

Aura of flame: all enemies assaulting avatar must make dangerous terrain checks count as moving through difficult terrain. Furthermore the Avatar counts as armed with offensive and defensive grenades

Again this is a rough idea as it the point limit. I wanted to make him more on par with a bloodthirster. Hes less mobile and strong than the bloodthirster, but has other strengths

My suggestions in green
I'd like to make him stronger, but then you have trouble keeping him balanced when you take fortune into account. Others in the past suggested making him immune to psychic powers, or just immune to friendly psychic powers, but I think the former would increase his point limit by a lot.

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:
I think that would really bring that Avatar up on par with a lot of the other Monsterous creatures and still keep him in line with the Eldar style.

A little off topic, and this might have been propossed before, but perhaps you could dosomething like the new assassins in GK codex and give all the pheniox lords one basic stat line at like

WS 8 BS 8 S4 T4 I6 A4 W3 Ld9 Sv3+


and have the different lords each come with different equpiment that would then focus on there own aspect. They could also have an option to include a unit of their aspect that wouldnt take up a FOC slot.

the stats are just a rough idea i came up with in like 5 minutes.

I really liked the idea of the PL's being an upgrade for an aspect warrior unit ("One unit of Banshees may upgrade their Exarch to Jain Zar for +30 points"). I'd then I'd like to see them get something along the line of "Whilst the Pheonix Lord is alive, their unit counts as scoring" and give them an extra exarch power and a fancy bit of wargear.
I like your suggestion, but can't see why you'd want to use up an elite slot on a unit of DA's, Reapers or one of the Fast Attack aspects.

What would Dire Avengers get? They are already scoring.

If the Exarch becomes better (+1 WS/BS, I, A and inv sv) and offer fearless, would that not be enough as a one-off upgrade?
As a side note, it's actually a very good idea as it encourages diversity through multiple specializations without encouraging spamming - in other words encourages you to be Eldar, provided the upgrade is proportionally cheap so it's distinctly advantageous to upgrade.
Also, it encourages people to buy additional models, and as such appeals to GW's business side

As for the Avatar - he's already really good at an arguably already discounted price, it's just that the rest of the army are ill made to support him.
I'd say he mostly needs a mobility upgrade, but that's something the entire non-mech side of the race does.
General upgrades for any unit in form of webways and warp packs (one use DS) could allow Eldar to better make use of infantry lists.

Asurmen could simply be cheaper compaired to the other PL's. Or have an especially powerful power or piece of wargear to make him equally viable for the same amount of points.

Example:
Jain Zar - 75 points

One unit of Howling Banshees may upgrade their Exarch to Jain Zar for 60 points. Whilst Jain Zar is alive her unit counts as scoring and she has all of the exarch powers, in addition she and her unit have the furious charge special rule.

Wargear: Banshee Mask, Strange spikey disc weapon.

Spikey disc weapon - gives Jain Zar +D6 attacks in combat and can be thrown as a shooting attack with the following rules - Place a large blast marker so that it is touching Jain Zar's base but not covering any other friendly models, it hits automatically (without scattering) at S4 AP6 and has the rending special rule.

Fuegan - 75 points

One unit of Fire Dragons may upgrade their Exarch to Fuegan for 75 points. Whilst Fuegan is alive his unit counts as scoring and he has all of the exarch powers, in addition any glancing hits caused by Fuegan and his unit are improved to penetrating hits on a D6 roll of 4+.

Wargear: Fire Pike, Fire Axe

Fire Axe - close combat attacks by the fire axe ignore armour saves, and roll 2D6 penetration against models with an armour value.

Asurmen - 50 points

One unit of Dire Avengers may upgrade their exarch to Asurmen for 50 points. Asurmen has all of the exarch powers and whilst he is alive, his entire unit benefit from the 5++ save permanantly, not just when they are in combat.

Wargear: Asurmens shuriken catapult, Force Shield (3++), Asurmens dire sword.

Shuriken catapult - always fires with +1 shot as if using the bladestorm power, but may fire every turn.

Dire sword - power weapon, inflicts instant death.

(note that the points are randomly chosen of the top of my head, I doubt they were balanced, its just to show my point.)

Gorechild wrote:Asurmen could simply be cheaper compaired to the other PL's. Or have an especially powerful power or piece of wargear to make him equally viable for the same amount of points.

Example:
Jain Zar - 75 points

One unit of Howling Banshees may upgrade their Exarch to Jain Zar for 60 points. Whilst Jain Zar is alive her unit counts as scoring and she has all of the exarch powers, in addition she and her unit have the furious charge special rule.

Wargear: Banshee Mask, Strange spikey disc weapon.

Spikey disc weapon - gives Jain Zar +D6 attacks in combat and can be thrown as a shooting attack with the following rules - Place a large blast marker so that it is touching Jain Zar's base but not covering any other friendly models, it hits automatically (without scattering) at S4 AP6 and has the rending special rule.

Fuegan - 75 points

One unit of Fire Dragons may upgrade their Exarch to Fuegan for 75 points. Whilst Fuegan is alive his unit counts as scoring and he has all of the exarch powers, in addition any glancing hits caused by Fuegan and his unit are improved to penetrating hits on a D6 roll of 4+.

Wargear: Fire Pike, Fire Axe

Fire Axe - close combat attacks by the fire axe ignore armour saves, and roll 2D6 penetration against models with an armour value.

Asurmen - 50 points

One unit of Dire Avengers may upgrade their exarch to Asurmen for 50 points. Asurmen has all of the exarch powers and whilst he is alive, his entire unit benefit from the 5++ save permanantly, not just when they are in combat.

Wargear: Asurmens shuriken catapult, Force Shield (3++), Asurmens dire sword.

Shuriken catapult - always fires with +1 shot as if using the bladestorm power, but may fire every turn.

Dire sword - power weapon, inflicts instant death.

(note that the points are randomly chosen of the top of my head, I doubt they were balanced, its just to show my point.)

Im curious as to why this idea really caught your attention. It is a cool idea, but I feel that being a "super sergeant" is kind of a step backwards for doing phoneix lords justice.
I mean these squad bonuses you described could easily be implemented in the IC versions (which admittedly need work)

You havent really come up with anything new and or different. A units role hasnt been changed. Youve made moderate attempts to make exisitng units a little more effective at their current role, but overall its boring and bad.

Eldar need 2 things.
1) Cheaper Units
2) Melta Weapons on Vypers, serpents, falcons, wraithlords, and most elite and troop squads.

Tortoiseer wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Asurmen could simply be cheaper compaired to the other PL's. Or have an especially powerful power or piece of wargear to make him equally viable for the same amount of points.

Example:
Jain Zar - 75 points

One unit of Howling Banshees may upgrade their Exarch to Jain Zar for 60 points. Whilst Jain Zar is alive her unit counts as scoring and she has all of the exarch powers, in addition she and her unit have the furious charge special rule.

Wargear: Banshee Mask, Strange spikey disc weapon.

Spikey disc weapon - gives Jain Zar +D6 attacks in combat and can be thrown as a shooting attack with the following rules - Place a large blast marker so that it is touching Jain Zar's base but not covering any other friendly models, it hits automatically (without scattering) at S4 AP6 and has the rending special rule.

Fuegan - 75 points

One unit of Fire Dragons may upgrade their Exarch to Fuegan for 75 points. Whilst Fuegan is alive his unit counts as scoring and he has all of the exarch powers, in addition any glancing hits caused by Fuegan and his unit are improved to penetrating hits on a D6 roll of 4+.

Wargear: Fire Pike, Fire Axe

Fire Axe - close combat attacks by the fire axe ignore armour saves, and roll 2D6 penetration against models with an armour value.

Asurmen - 50 points

One unit of Dire Avengers may upgrade their exarch to Asurmen for 50 points. Asurmen has all of the exarch powers and whilst he is alive, his entire unit benefit from the 5++ save permanantly, not just when they are in combat.

Wargear: Asurmens shuriken catapult, Force Shield (3++), Asurmens dire sword.

Shuriken catapult - always fires with +1 shot as if using the bladestorm power, but may fire every turn.

Dire sword - power weapon, inflicts instant death.

(note that the points are randomly chosen of the top of my head, I doubt they were balanced, its just to show my point.)

Im curious as to why this idea really caught your attention. It is a cool idea, but I feel that being a "super sergeant" is kind of a step backwards for doing phoneix lords justice.
I mean these squad bonuses you described could easily be implemented in the IC versions (which admittedly need work)

I think that it would fit the PL really well. They should probaly be way more expsensive, like Arjac with the SW. As they stand they really aren't that good since they can only join squads of their aspect. So by making them an upgrade to a squad you are adding some real hitting power to a squad and at the same time you arent wasting an HQ slot for it.

Smitty0305 wrote:You havent really come up with anything new and or different. A units role hasnt been changed. Youve made moderate attempts to make exisitng units a little more effective at their current role, but overall its boring and bad.

Eldar need 2 things.
1) Cheaper Units
2) Melta Weapons on Vypers, serpents, falcons, wraithlords, and most elite and troop squads.

I agree the Eldar need cheaper units, the gaurdians could definatly use a point drop for what little they can do, or else get a lot of new gear and a longer range gun. But jamming meltas into every squad will basicly make them like SM with a worse armour save. I think just giving each exarch an anti-tank device that is more in keeping with the aspect would fit the Eldar much better IMO.

Smitty0305 wrote:You havent really come up with anything new and or different. A units role hasnt been changed. Youve made moderate attempts to make exisitng units a little more effective at their current role, but overall its boring and bad.

Eldar need 2 things.
1) Cheaper Units
2) Melta Weapons on Vypers, serpents, falcons, wraithlords, and most elite and troop squads.

They don't need cheaper things, but they do need more effective choices for the points cost. As proposed before, if all aspect warriors had a baseline of A 2 instead of A 1 like all the newer codex veteran choices it would go a long way. Also upping their WS to 5 - especially for CC oriented aspects would improve survivability and lethality. Hitting on 3+ with 50% improvement in number of attacks goes a long way.

I like the concept of phoenix lords being upgrades to squads. I don't mind if it counts the unit as scoring just that it doesn't make them into a troop choice. I would also suggest that making phoenix lords the equivalent of a SM chapter banner would be nice. So any unit of the same aspect as the phoenix lord gets +1 attack if within 12" of the phoenix lord.

I like phoenix lords as squad upgrades as this means it is purely a points issue rather than using up a precious HQ slot. OTOH, if you insist on keeping phoenix lords as HQ. Then they are need of some upgrades. EW and allowing (at least Jain Zar and Karandaw) their aspect to be chosen as troops would be in order.

Melta weapons are not 100% necessary but I am hoping that in 6th ed. they will address the vehicle damage charts and AP effects on fire so that melta weapons are the only choice for most races for true AT.

Phoenix lords arnt "squad upgrades". There eternal warriors that have fought for thousands of years and are icons and legends of the eldar warhost. Making them equivalent to an enlisted human sergent is an absolute joke and anti-fluff.

Give Jetbikes/Vypers Melta Weapons with a BS4 Platform and eldar's a top army again.

Tortoiseer wrote:Im curious as to why this idea really caught your attention. It is a cool idea, but I feel that being a "super sergeant" is kind of a step backwards for doing phoneix lords justice.
I mean these squad bonuses you described could easily be implemented in the IC versions (which admittedly need work)

It struck me as the best option because we were thinking of introducing craftworld-specific special characters. Doing it this way would prevent there being 10-15 HQ options, whilst still including all of established characters and leaving room to allow themed armies for the major craftworlds.

Smitty0305 wrote:Phoenix lords arnt "squad upgrades". There eternal warriors that have fought for thousands of years and are icons and legends of the eldar warhost. Making them equivalent to an enlisted human sergent is an absolute joke and anti-fluff.

Give Jetbikes/Vypers Melta Weapons with a BS4 Platform and eldar's a top army again.

Given the choice between uber phoenix lords that no one ever plays and shadow phoenix lords (squad upgrades) that I might find a use for. I will take the shadow phoenix lords.
When building a list, the choice is between a farseer (super force multiplier) an autarch (a position modifier via +1 reserve rolls) and an avatar.

The choice of a phoenix lord is purely a fluffy choice if it is merely an EW and a buff CC expert. It will, like now, never be chosen.

While I acknowledge that melta weapons are the gods of anti-tank, I don't necessarily want to see the eldar gain melta falcons, walkers, ejb. I would much rather see options to get the eldar back the mobility bonus that it always used to have to go along with a god-awful amount of S6 firepower that it can dump on an opponent. I don't want to see the eldar become a no-brainer like a vulkan SM list or something equivalent. I would rather see the eldar frustrate an opponent through being hard to pin down, excelling at firepower and lethal one-shot HTH surgical strikes.

For instance maybe it is time to restore the old crystal targeting matrix and proliferate the monofilament rules from the night spinner to all weapons described as monofilament based.