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Smitty0305 wrote:Phoenix lords arnt "squad upgrades". There eternal warriors that have fought for thousands of years and are icons and legends of the eldar warhost. Making them equivalent to an enlisted human sergent is an absolute joke and anti-fluff.

Give Jetbikes/Vypers Melta Weapons with a BS4 Platform and eldar's a top army again.

It's something of a side-point, but Eldar do not have the equivalent of an enlisted human sergeant (that would be an upgraded Guardian). Exarchs are upgrade leaders of equivalents of special ops, so the proposed Phoenix Lord would be the equivalent of a hero special ops commander. We're still not talking about the legendary Asurmen quality stuff here, we're talking more about shrine leaders. The problem with both the Avatar and the Phoenix Lords are that their power is not on the same scale as a normal 40k engagement, if I'm not mistaken their fluff would compare them to a regular HQ what a Razorback compares to a Baneblade in terms of power (not size).

Regardless, again, having a shrine leader (or phoenix lord if you'd like to call them that) upgrade for one of the exarchs would be interesting. More promotion for varied lists is a good thing. Spamming multiples of The Thing That Works™ (i.e. Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers) isn't a good thing. If squad number 2+ wouldn't have the same potential as squad number 1, then you might take several different aspects and then be forced to work your Eldar tactical genius that the books talk about.

As for HQ, I think consolidation is in order. The primary thing about the current Eldar HQs that are chosen are the ones that support the rest of the Eldar army. For some reason this seem to be more important than in many other armies. The HQs that aren't taken are the fighting HQs. Even the fighting HQs that can actually be pointed at and say "this one is actually fairly priced". So we get, in order of battle-altering potential that you see in lists and in advice:
1. Eldrad
2. Farseer
3. Avatar and Yriel tied for third, probably
4. Autarch
5. <Add your gimmick here, but you'll probably lose that game>

So, extrapolating from typical Eldar tactics, at least I come to the conclusion that the soul of the Eldar HQs are the HQs that have additional effects to your army. We've already established that Autarchs lack not in fighting prowess, but a reason to take him over the Farseer (whom can do so much more).

In other words, there's no space for Phoenix Lords in the HQ section. I honestly don't see a way of making it compete for the Farseer's slot, a position that at least the Autarch stands a chance of fighting for.

Smitty0305 wrote:Phoenix lords arnt "squad upgrades". There eternal warriors that have fought for thousands of years and are icons and legends of the eldar warhost. Making them equivalent to an enlisted human sergent is an absolute joke and anti-fluff.

Well no, it would be making them an equivalent of things like Tellion, Snikrot or the Changling, not a sergent. They are still in/famous characters within 40k, they just added into the codex in a way that means they are still valid options without making oads of HQ's that would never get taken.

Mahtamori wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Phoenix lords arnt "squad upgrades". There eternal warriors that have fought for thousands of years and are icons and legends of the eldar warhost. Making them equivalent to an enlisted human sergent is an absolute joke and anti-fluff.

Give Jetbikes/Vypers Melta Weapons with a BS4 Platform and eldar's a top army again.

It's something of a side-point, but Eldar do not have the equivalent of an enlisted human sergeant (that would be an upgraded Guardian). Exarchs are upgrade leaders of equivalents of special ops, so the proposed Phoenix Lord would be the equivalent of a hero special ops commander. We're still not talking about the legendary Asurmen quality stuff here, we're talking more about shrine leaders. The problem with both the Avatar and the Phoenix Lords are that their power is not on the same scale as a normal 40k engagement, if I'm not mistaken their fluff would compare them to a regular HQ what a Razorback compares to a Baneblade in terms of power (not size).

Regardless, again, having a shrine leader (or phoenix lord if you'd like to call them that) upgrade for one of the exarchs would be interesting. More promotion for varied lists is a good thing. Spamming multiples of The Thing That Works™ (i.e. Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers) isn't a good thing. If squad number 2+ wouldn't have the same potential as squad number 1, then you might take several different aspects and then be forced to work your Eldar tactical genius that the books talk about.

As for HQ, I think consolidation is in order. The primary thing about the current Eldar HQs that are chosen are the ones that support the rest of the Eldar army. For some reason this seem to be more important than in many other armies. The HQs that aren't taken are the fighting HQs. Even the fighting HQs that can actually be pointed at and say "this one is actually fairly priced". So we get, in order of battle-altering potential that you see in lists and in advice:
1. Eldrad
2. Farseer
3. Avatar and Yriel tied for third, probably
4. Autarch
5. <Add your gimmick here, but you'll probably lose that game>

So, extrapolating from typical Eldar tactics, at least I come to the conclusion that the soul of the Eldar HQs are the HQs that have additional effects to your army. We've already established that Autarchs lack not in fighting prowess, but a reason to take him over the Farseer (whom can do so much more).

In other words, there's no space for Phoenix Lords in the HQ section. I honestly don't see a way of making it compete for the Farseer's slot, a position that at least the Autarch stands a chance of fighting for.

Thats the main reason the idea came to mind, whenever I looked at the Eldar HQ section the PL's always looked really cool, but taking them meant giving up either a farseer or an autarch, both of which are more veristlie and offer more options. But if they where a squad upgrade then I think you would see them a whole lot more.

I was thinking about a way to bring in more significance to Eldar army type, call it Craftworld dedication or army structure if you will. Essentially, it's an extrapolation of the new rumoured Tau way of building Troop choice list where the HQ dictates what is troop choices and what is not, but that presumes units with high customizability - which is simply something you don't find with Eldar. Here's the gist of my musings so far:

It's not really an idea that'll float, but...

The list of units encompass all that are known as of today, including the ones from Forge World. These units are sub-divided into common and uncommon, the common units are the ones found in most armies while the uncommon ones are restricted. Essentially, this means that some units will be an option in all army types, while others not so much. The common and uncommon aren't spelled out as such, but rather a hidden list where the uncommon are slightly more worthwhile in their focused role. Typically, Guardian units and the common Aspects are common while the rarer vehicles and less common aspects are uncommon. Shining Spears, for instance, would only make an appearance in Saim-Hann-type armies or maybe Corsair ones, while Banshees would be accessible to all.
See where this is going?

Well, essentially, each army archetype has the common list and a few of the units from the uncommon list. The unit description would be sub-divided not into HQ, Elite, Troop, etc, but rather into HQ, Guardian, Walker, Skimmer, Aspect Warrior, Wraith, etc.

It's actually a bloody complicated idea now that I write it out, but essentially each unit would be associated with a slot depending on the army you chose. A Sword wind would have Dire Avengers, Banshees, and Scorpions as Troop while having access to Spectres and Fire Dragons, for instance, while a Guardian Force would have the different Guardians and Walkers as troop choices and also have access to Warlock units in Elite.

Like I wrote, not something that'll float, but I thought I'd, well, attempt to share.

(I.e. only Biel-Tan can Fire Dragon spam, other armies will have to rely on Hornets or Guardian platforms to punch through armour)

As a side-note, it would be interesting to see a vehicle-oriented army for Eldar where Hornets and Falcons are troop choices (and Falcons can take squads of units as vehicle upgrade)

Mahtamori wrote:I was thinking about a way to bring in more significance to Eldar army type, call it Craftworld dedication or army structure if you will. Essentially, it's an extrapolation of the new rumoured Tau way of building Troop choice list where the HQ dictates what is troop choices and what is not, but that presumes units with high customizability - which is simply something you don't find with Eldar. Here's the gist of my musings so far:

It's not really an idea that'll float, but...

The list of units encompass all that are known as of today, including the ones from Forge World. These units are sub-divided into common and uncommon, the common units are the ones found in most armies while the uncommon ones are restricted. Essentially, this means that some units will be an option in all army types, while others not so much. The common and uncommon aren't spelled out as such, but rather a hidden list where the uncommon are slightly more worthwhile in their focused role. Typically, Guardian units and the common Aspects are common while the rarer vehicles and less common aspects are uncommon. Shining Spears, for instance, would only make an appearance in Saim-Hann-type armies or maybe Corsair ones, while Banshees would be accessible to all.
See where this is going?

Well, essentially, each army archetype has the common list and a few of the units from the uncommon list. The unit description would be sub-divided not into HQ, Elite, Troop, etc, but rather into HQ, Guardian, Walker, Skimmer, Aspect Warrior, Wraith, etc.

It's actually a bloody complicated idea now that I write it out, but essentially each unit would be associated with a slot depending on the army you chose. A Sword wind would have Dire Avengers, Banshees, and Scorpions as Troop while having access to Spectres and Fire Dragons, for instance, while a Guardian Force would have the different Guardians and Walkers as troop choices and also have access to Warlock units in Elite.

Like I wrote, not something that'll float, but I thought I'd, well, attempt to share.

(I.e. only Biel-Tan can Fire Dragon spam, other armies will have to rely on Hornets or Guardian platforms to punch through armour)

As a side-note, it would be interesting to see a vehicle-oriented army for Eldar where Hornets and Falcons are troop choices (and Falcons can take squads of units as vehicle upgrade)

To perhaps make this idea a little less complicated you could make it so ceratin HQ choices must be taken in order to play a ceratin unit. Or you could make it so you would have to basicly pick a Craftworld, sort of like the marks of choas, and the you would get some special army wide bouneses and then you would be allowed to take they units that require an HQ from that craftworld. If you did that then if you took two HQs you could have to seperate Craftworld bonus to represent two Craftworlds helping each other.

Some examples might be Alaitoc might be the only ones who can upgrade the whole squad to pathfinders or will give some bounes to rangers and the like. Perhaps they would have the abiltiy to re-roll Ld test if they can draw line of sight to the HQ.

Then a HQ from Ulthwe might have access to the special Black Guard Guardian squads. They might get some better farseer rules or the ability to redeploy 1 unit.

Saim-Hann might get some special jetbike rules and have access to shining spears or have them count as troop choices.

Beil-Tan might get have Wairthguard count as troop choices, or get some vehicle and Wairthguard and Wairthlord bonuses.

Just a few ideas.

I was thinking along the lines of "pick a craftworld". Ulthwé does things a lot different from Saim-Hann, their methodology is even less similar than Black Templar and Space Wolves are similar.
I want to avoid associating with craftworld, though, since that leads to presumptions of specific army builds. Il-Kaith, for example, will use any means necessary to stop chaos, and I imagine they would be similar to Ulthwé, but this born from desperation rather than population.

In either case, it's unlikely that Craftworld Eldar will be divided again, as in third edition, even if their race would fit the bill nicely. If there is a division between doctrines, though, I'd say it would be more fundamental than the odd rule and elite->troop shift.
Craftworlds aren't exactly vast on external resources and only slightly isolated by space (if you catch my drift), so there's bound to be large differences in available weaponry and local worship to Khaine. Indeed, the codex does state that the aspects presented in the codex are only the common ones, and hints to the possibility that each craftworld has their own shrines with their own ritual weaponry.
Yme-Loc, for instance, wouldn't even fit in with the current codex. Theirs is an artisan craftworld. Forge World's Hornets make it possible to build a Yme-Loc force, however.

My idea, quite simply, is that the choice of craftworld arche-type may even explicitly ban the use of half of the Eldar units. Craftworld Ulthwé is vast enough to house every shrine, true, but their typical force would contain only a token force of them, and then most likely the most common type (I imagine that to be mainly Avengers and Banshees, possibly Scorpions). What you'd see are Walkers, Guardians, and supporting grav tanks.

In either case, a small disclaimer, I'm not personally hot on sub-division of the codex into craftworlds (or even by HQs). But it's FUN to talk about, so to speak

Mahtamori wrote:In either case, a small disclaimer, I'm not personally hot on sub-division of the codex into craftworlds (or even by HQs). But it's FUN to talk about, so to speak

I agree, I don't like having extra restrictions forced on you specifying what you can/cannot take in an army. Linking it to special characters strikes me as the best way of doing this, as it gives you the "craftworld specific" option, but means you don't have to use them if you don't want to. If the codex said "Before creating an army list you must choose craftworld A,B,C,D or E, they give you this bonus and this drawback" then I'd leave Eldar behind, but I agree that the option for a reasonably competitive fluffy Saim Han/Ulthwe/Iyanden/Biel Tan/Alaitoc/Corsair army should be available to those that want it.

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:In either case, a small disclaimer, I'm not personally hot on sub-division of the codex into craftworlds (or even by HQs). But it's FUN to talk about, so to speak

I agree, I don't like having extra restrictions forced on you specifying what you can/cannot take in an army. Linking it to special characters strikes me as the best way of doing this, as it gives you the "craftworld specific" option, but means you don't have to use them if you don't want to. If the codex said "Before creating an army list you must choose craftworld A,B,C,D or E, they give you this bonus and this drawback" then I'd leave Eldar behind, but I agree that the option for a reasonably competitive fluffy Saim Han/Ulthwe/Iyanden/Biel Tan/Alaitoc/Corsair army should be available to those that want it.

Well then there should be some extra HQ choices that have bouneses and restrictions about what you can take that would generally fit said craftworld. But these should be special characters, so that way you wouldn't be forced to restrict yourself, but if someone wanted to do a fluffy army they could use these HQ's.

Just a though.

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:In either case, a small disclaimer, I'm not personally hot on sub-division of the codex into craftworlds (or even by HQs). But it's FUN to talk about, so to speak

I agree, I don't like having extra restrictions forced on you specifying what you can/cannot take in an army. Linking it to special characters strikes me as the best way of doing this, as it gives you the "craftworld specific" option, but means you don't have to use them if you don't want to. If the codex said "Before creating an army list you must choose craftworld A,B,C,D or E, they give you this bonus and this drawback" then I'd leave Eldar behind, but I agree that the option for a reasonably competitive fluffy Saim Han/Ulthwe/Iyanden/Biel Tan/Alaitoc/Corsair army should be available to those that want it.

Well then there should be some extra HQ choices that have bouneses and restrictions about what you can take that would generally fit said craftworld. But these should be special characters, so that way you wouldn't be forced to restrict yourself, but if someone wanted to do a fluffy army they could use these HQ's.

Just a though.

I've been suggesting that here for months if you look back you'll even find rules suggestions for a few (Hoec and Iyana if I remember rightly).
This is why I suggested turning the PL's into upgrade characters, to prevent there being so many HQ's, that's how the whole discussion started

Gorechild wrote:

Tactical Nuclear Panda wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:In either case, a small disclaimer, I'm not personally hot on sub-division of the codex into craftworlds (or even by HQs). But it's FUN to talk about, so to speak

I agree, I don't like having extra restrictions forced on you specifying what you can/cannot take in an army. Linking it to special characters strikes me as the best way of doing this, as it gives you the "craftworld specific" option, but means you don't have to use them if you don't want to. If the codex said "Before creating an army list you must choose craftworld A,B,C,D or E, they give you this bonus and this drawback" then I'd leave Eldar behind, but I agree that the option for a reasonably competitive fluffy Saim Han/Ulthwe/Iyanden/Biel Tan/Alaitoc/Corsair army should be available to those that want it.

Well then there should be some extra HQ choices that have bouneses and restrictions about what you can take that would generally fit said craftworld. But these should be special characters, so that way you wouldn't be forced to restrict yourself, but if someone wanted to do a fluffy army they could use these HQ's.

Just a though.

I've been suggesting that here for months if you look back you'll even find rules suggestions for a few (Hoec and Iyana if I remember rightly).
This is why I suggested turning the PL's into upgrade characters, to prevent there being so many HQ's, that's how the whole discussion started

Ah should have read back through more of the pages, I read the first 3 and the last 3 missed most of the middle. Well then I think that is a spleandid idea, and would definatly make the codex a little more interesting.

On a side note, and idea came to me, if the PL's stayed HQ's then perhaps they could have a rule allowing their aspect to be taken as troops, just a though take it or leave it.

The big problem with having PLs making their aspect troops are two-fold:
1. Dire Avengers are already Troop (something that could change, but since they are already angsty about being Guardians with skill)
2. Spamming. Specifically Fire Dragon spamming.

Mahtamori wrote:The big problem with having PLs making their aspect troops are two-fold:
1. Dire Avengers are already Troop (something that could change, but since they are already angsty about being Guardians with skill)
2. Spamming. Specifically Fire Dragon spamming.

AMEN! Those who want the old Biel Tan craftworld army, I don't have a problem with - (i.e. Howling Banshees and/or Scorpions as troops)
The thought of an army of dark reapers while crafty and a pain are going to suffer from the base cost of a dark reaper. To a lesser degree warp spiders and hawks. That leaves the 10 ton elephant in the middle of the room. Cheap and effective fire dragons. Now the simple fix is to allow anyone but fire dragons to count as troops but that just seems ham handed. The proposed that if a matching phoenix lord is existing, any aspect of the same is scoring is much more palatable to me.

Well, let's boil it down. Which are the major, least compatible, Eldar craftworld archetypes?

Aside from Corsairs, which mix vehicles everywhere and have a spattering of Dark Eldar, I can only think of two: Guardian-based and Aspect-based. Iybraesil and Biel-Tan, and possibly Il-Kaith, are the odd ones out. Sort of the Blood Angels of Eldar.
Both Iyanden and Saim-Hann adhere roughly to the same build as Ulthwé and Alaitoc, only they put more focus on different things.
Iybraesil and Biel-Tan are significantly less likely to make use of Guardians in general.

So, could boil it down to essentially a half-codex alternative army called a "Sword Wind" which mixes things up a bit. It'd have Dire Avengers, Scorpions, and Banshees as troops as the main feature. The question is how to deal with the rest - how many tanks may they take, and so on?

The main ones (Ulthwe, Saim Han, Biel Tan, Iyanden, Alaitoc IMO) shouldn't be that hard to sort out, the problem comes when you try to get more of the minor craftworlds in, or try and shoe horn them in so they work within the same rules as the major craftworlds.

The things I suggested previously were:

Alaitoc - Ranger Long Rifle's count as assault 1 instead of heavy 1

Saim han - 1/3 Jetbikes may upgrade their weapon to a shuriken cannon, fusion gun or flamer (for appropriate points cost) rather than only a shuriken cannon

Iyanden - All units of wraithguard count as troops, re-rolls on failed wraithsight tests.

Biel Tan - (I really don't know on this one)

Ulthwe - Warlocks may take two powers and choose which they use each turn.

This would leave the minor craftwords to use the generic HQ's (farseer, autarch, avatar) and whatever mix of units they want. They dont get the bonus, but their HQ's would be comparitively cheaper.

Ok, so... let's see.

Altansar - new, unknown, craftworld. Maugan Ra's home.
Arach-Qin - very small, unknown. Too small for much of an army, maybe.
Black Library - clowns.
Il-Kaithe - crusaders against chaos. Speciality in bonesingers. Possibly kinship with Iyanden? It's even a doomed craftworld.
Iybraesil - matriarchal craftworld. Possibly kingship with Biel-Tan?
Kaelor - Irrelevant to the future of the galaxy (since they're trying their best to stay out of it)
Lugganath - trying to restart an Eldar civilization inside the webway. Strong ties to Harlequins. Unknown kinship, but tend to help out stomping out chaos forces from the shadows.
Yme-Loc - artisans. Grav-tanks and titans. Incompabile with most major craftworlds, but closest to vehicle-oriented Ulthwé I suppose.
Zahr-Tann - They're brown.

So, as far as the minor craftworlds are concerned, you could summarise it to being largely falling into more or less into the same slot as one of the craftworlds. Of the minor craftworlds that might be large enough to sustain a proper army, I'd say:
Altansar - Either Ulthwé or Biel-Tan
Il-Kaithe - Iyanden
Iybraesil - Biel-Tan
Kaelor - Ulthwé / vanilla.
Lugganath - sounds like Alaitoc
Yme-Loc - unique.

On a side-note, I find it hillarious that it took an entire Astarte chapter to invade Craftworld Idharae - a minor craftworld that had suffered horrific casualties from Hive Fleet Naga less than 40 years earlier. Invaders chapter suffered terrific losses, and then 50 years later had their homeworld wiped out by Alaitoc without putting up much of a fight. (One can only assume that it takes astarte shorter time to breed warriors than it takes Eldar...)
Only goes to show the relative power of an astarte chapter versus a craftworld.

Regardless, the thing I like the least about craftworldization is appending abilities. I'd personally prefer to alter structure. As for special HQs turning craftworlds into this or that, the problem here is that it bloats the HQ section something fierce or results in some of the major craftworlds being demoted.
We've got Autarch, Farseer, and Avatar as generic HQ. Then we have Yriel as a paragon Eldar crosair (he's less Iyanden than corsair, and tends to not lead wraiths as far as I can tell). This means 4 HQ. Add in one for each major craftworld and we get 9. Add in the Phoenix Lords and we have 15 - and that's only provided Spiders and Spears do not get one.

I think a rough division into two archetypes is easier to swallow as a whole. Of course, this means the codex layout need to be altered to present the units and their stats better.
Essentially a page would be devoted to detailing how a Sword Wind would be laid out and how a regular army would look like.
The benefit of using the structure of Aspect versus Guardian layout is that it doesn't directly associate with either of the major craftworlds and as such are compatible with all - even though Ulthwé are partial to Guardians and Biel-Tan are partial to Aspects. Each of the major craftworlds are likely to at any one time be able to field several of each kind of army - even the Biel-Tan would use Guardian forces to hold strategic areas, participate in lower-risk Ork cleansings, and defence of the home fleet.

But, then again, that may not be necessary. The primary goal dividing the list like that would simply to allow players the choice between weaker shooting-oriented Troop or slightly stronger melee-oriented Troop.
I do feel that the efficient melee side of the Eldar have declined significantly, and is currently completely unsupported by the army list. One way or another, I feel that either Scorpions or Banshees should be troop choices. Dire Avengers on their own just don't cut it to be a troop-choice representation of the aspect warriors.

Mahtamori wrote:The big problem with having PLs making their aspect troops are two-fold:
1. Dire Avengers are already Troop (something that could change, but since they are already angsty about being Guardians with skill)
2. Spamming. Specifically Fire Dragon spamming.

how about taking a PL makes 1 unit of their aspect count as troops.

so with fuegan you can take 4 units of FD, ooooo, def worth it...

for DA give them something else, like infiltrate or FC or something or wait you could give them nothing as Assurman is already one of the best PLs because he has a ++ save.

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:The big problem with having PLs making their aspect troops are two-fold:
1. Dire Avengers are already Troop (something that could change, but since they are already angsty about being Guardians with skill)
2. Spamming. Specifically Fire Dragon spamming.

how about taking a PL makes 1 unit of their aspect count as troops.

so with fuegan you can take 4 units of FD, ooooo, def worth it...

for DA give them something else, like infiltrate or FC or something or wait you could give them nothing as Assurman is already one of the best PLs because he has a ++ save.

Thats what I was thinking, it would be easy to tell which is the scoring unit because it would have the PL in it, say they are only scoring when the SC is alive. To compensate DA's, Asurmen could just cost less points.

Gorechild wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:The big problem with having PLs making their aspect troops are two-fold:
1. Dire Avengers are already Troop (something that could change, but since they are already angsty about being Guardians with skill)
2. Spamming. Specifically Fire Dragon spamming.

how about taking a PL makes 1 unit of their aspect count as troops.

so with fuegan you can take 4 units of FD, ooooo, def worth it...

for DA give them something else, like infiltrate or FC or something or wait you could give them nothing as Assurman is already one of the best PLs because he has a ++ save.

Thats what I was thinking, it would be easy to tell which is the scoring unit because it would have the PL in it, say they are only scoring when the SC is alive. To compensate DA's, Asurmen could just cost less points.

i dont think they should have to be alive. Its usually easy enough to tell if a unit is scoring or not. Orks have scoring and nonscoring nobz and few people complain. GK now can make anything scoring.(Vehicle debate aside)

I guess people dont spam nobz but that is what this is about right. FD are really good right now, everyone takes them. The other aspects are not good, so no one takes them. Ideally the other aspects get better while FD stay the same or get a slight nerf. That way in the next codex people take balanced varied armies and they succeed with them.

It depends if they remain as HQ's as we've been discussing. If they stay as HQ's and craftworld characters are introduced then there will be a stupid number of options, most of which would never be used.

Fire Dragons are already planned to become more expensive and less prone to self-destruct by adding an Exarch (which is currently discouraged due to overkill on both performance and points). However, Fire Dragon playstyle will never be compatible with scoring.
Current brainchild is 90-95 points for a squad of 4 warriors and 1 exarch.

Another way to actively discourage suiciding Fire Dragons (and possibly upping their value beyond just taking out super-expensive vehicles) is to increase their points slightly and give them a 3+ save for their effort (which also protects them slightly better from Vehicle Destroyed - Explodes!).
This would put them up to 100-105 points for a squad of 4 warriors and 1 exarch by my estimate, which is roughly +2 points per model.

Personally, though, I'm a fan of other bonuses. The phoenix lords aren't really the take-and-hold types anyway, so why making the warriors scoring is beyond me.
If they are 0-1 upgrade per army on exarchs, then I'd say fearless and their own stats are sufficient.
If they are HQ choices, I'd personally vote for them leading a group of warrior retinue. This gives you +1 squad outside of the FOC, without overloading a unit with exarchs.

The things I've been crying out for for two years now is a)Give us Fleet back
b)Give us a Venom
c)Give us Assault after Disembark.

You've covered that here. All I can do is reiterate.

Make Wraithguard troops right off the bat.

Phoenix Lords make all members of their aspect on the table scoring. This could lead to some seriously cool, low-model-count, elite armies. Fire Dragon army anyone? Swooping Hawks army? Awesome. The prohibitive points costs should mean that this kind of Eldar build won't break the scales, so to speak.

Ramp up the Farseer powers somehow. I don't like the idea of the Nids, Space Wolves and Blood Angels all having better powers than us.

Shuricannon = defensive.

Aspect Wraithlords is a must.

Give WS a boost - I love them so much, but they have such little practical use in-game.

An original idea? A Gyrinx. Bring back the Rogue Trader elf-cat! He's part of a Farseer retinue, and his powers work like the old Warlock power of "Augment" (2/3rd ed Codex). Essentially a native buff, but with a model. Make the model untargetable too, like the guardian weapon platform. he's basicially Farseer wargear.

Alright, Tek, let's see...

Venom :: Well the name's taken, but a light transport vehicle for the minimal aspect squads is attractive. Not necessarily necessary, but attractive.

Assault after disembark :: Most posters in this thread wish Banshees to have this, I, personally, would argue that all melee models in the army need this. This leads to mechanization, true, but the melee portion of the Eldar army is in dire need of some spit and polish. I'd say this would be an ability attached straight onto the Serpent, but not present in the Falcon.

Wraithguard as troop :: It's sort of an anti-thesis for Eldar to have post-TEQ as troop choice. It's necessary for Iyanden-flair armies, though. I'd say either Wraithguard as troop choice OR a special Iyanden character that's specifically not named Yriel.

Phoenix Lords :: well... current point of discussion.

Farseer powers :: Pretty much, yes, but it seems that most posters in here would rather nerf the recent Wardization down to reasonable levels (not like that's going to happen, though)

Shuricannon :: Hmm... I've suggested S4 Heavy 6, just to break the Eldar "what flavour of S6 do you want to shoot" as well as get them defensive. Another way is to simply state "Defensive - this weapon is a defensive weapon whatever the BRB says."
The under-slung upgrade costs 10 points and is situational whether it's an upgrade.

Aspect Lords :: Here's where I disagree

WS = Warp Spiders? :: They're really good. They just cost a bit much. We've toyed with simply appending a Nightspinner's Monofilament rule. What say you?

Gyrinx :: Ah, I can't remember Augment here at work, even though I played Ulthwé with an unkillable 12-man council 10 years ago...
The Gyrinx is stated to have limited combat abilities in lexicanum, but I believe it's a comment sprung from the role playing game rather than the table-top wargaming.

Right back at'cha dude

Mahtamori wrote:Venom :: Well the name's taken, but a light transport vehicle for the minimal aspect squads is attractive. Not necessarily necessary, but attractive.

Let's not forget the Venom is Harlequin technology, present in the old Harlie Codex, so it's not such a bad thing to share the name. Something that a 6-man assault squad can ride up the bad guys, get out and smash face. AaD (see below) would make this *amazing*. Get some Scorpions in it and Outflank - seriously, this model would sell by the truckload.

Mahtamori wrote:Assault after disembark :: Most posters in this thread wish Banshees to have this, I, personally, would argue that all melee models in the army need this. This leads to mechanization, true, but the melee portion of the Eldar army is in dire need of some spit and polish. I'd say this would be an ability attached straight onto the Serpent, but not present in the Falcon.

Suits me - a vehicle upgrade is best to be honest, similar to the Land Raider. And it'd be nice to disembark out the front, too

Mahtamori wrote:Wraithguard as troop :: It's sort of an anti-thesis for Eldar to have post-TEQ as troop choice. It's necessary for Iyanden-flair armies, though. I'd say either Wraithguard as troop choice OR a special Iyanden character that's specifically not named Yriel.

Agreed - this is a common new trait and I'm happy with it. Make the HQ unit something similar to the FW Wraithseer - like that SW Dread HQ guy. More flexibility in building unique armies better reflects the wholly different styles each craftworld seems to create for themselves.

Mahtamori wrote:Phoenix Lords :: well... current point of discussion.

I know the idea sounds OP - but at the elevated cost of the models, I couldn't see a whole army of Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers breaking the game - they still retain the same old flaws of the fragile space-elves, and it's not like some well-ordered bolter drill couldn't smash the crap out that army.

Mahtamori wrote:Farseer powers :: Pretty much, yes, but it seems that most posters in here would rather nerf the recent Wardization down to reasonable levels (not like that's going to happen, though)

Good call - let RoW negate Ward on equivalents?

Mahtamori wrote:Shuricannon :: Hmm... I've suggested S4 Heavy 6, just to break the Eldar "what flavour of S6 do you want to shoot"

This is better. A codex-specific special rule is ok, but I prefer this statline.

Well if you straight up disagree with aspect lords, then we'll just chalk that up to a difference of opinion and move on

Mahtamori wrote:WS = Warp Spiders? :: They're really good. They just cost a bit much. We've toyed with simply appending a Nightspinner's Monofilament rule. What say you?

I cannot remember a game where I've managed to use them to full effect. Maybe it's just me. That idea is nice though, and also (after re-reading my old codexes - see below - the old Spiders used a flamer template. THAT is an effective weapon.

Gyrinx :: Ah, I can't remember Augment here at work, even though I played Ulthwé with an unkillable 12-man council 10 years ago...
The Gyrinx is stated to have limited combat abilities in lexicanum, but I believe it's a comment sprung from the role playing game rather than the table-top wargaming.

I think that's in one if the Apocalypse books in the Seer Council formation. And I'd be fine with keeping Warp Spiders largely unchanged and decreasing the price, when I run them they perform great, although giving them monofilament would make them much better.

Mahtamori wrote:Venom :: Well the name's taken, but a light transport vehicle for the minimal aspect squads is attractive. Not necessarily necessary, but attractive.

Assault after disembark :: Most posters in this thread wish Banshees to have this, I, personally, would argue that all melee models in the army need this. This leads to mechanization, true, but the melee portion of the Eldar army is in dire need of some spit and polish. I'd say this would be an ability attached straight onto the Serpent, but not present in the Falcon.

As for the Venom, I could see some version of the Vyper made into a transport. I think 5 models feels better than 6 and it would def be open topped and made of paper. Still with Aspect armor saves its getting rather powerful. Would hate to see it use a force orginization slot but what is going to stop Eldar players from completely meching up in these, leaving their falcons and wave serpants behind?

As for Assault after Disembark I agree Eldar need this, pref as a vehicle upgrade for serpants or falcons.

If not that, maybe a Farseer power that allows it.

Hmm, if too much utility is dumped on Farseers, you might as well stick down an old-fashioned 1+ in front of their name. Right now he's more or less required for both wraithwall and jetbikes, making him required for mech-melee... I don't know...

Hey Tek, thanks for the posts, it aways helps to get another point of view, sometimes it feel like nothing is getting anywhere without it

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Venom :: Well the name's taken, but a light transport vehicle for the minimal aspect squads is attractive. Not necessarily necessary, but attractive.

Let's not forget the Venom is Harlequin technology, present in the old Harlie Codex, so it's not such a bad thing to share the name. Something that a 6-man assault squad can ride up the bad guys, get out and smash face. AaD (see below) would make this *amazing*. Get some Scorpions in it and Outflank - seriously, this model would sell by the truckload.

Maybe make it a transport that is only available to elite choices? although there will be another boost to FD's by letting them use melta bombs straight away as well.

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Assault after disembark :: Most posters in this thread wish Banshees to have this, I, personally, would argue that all melee models in the army need this. This leads to mechanization, true, but the melee portion of the Eldar army is in dire need of some spit and polish. I'd say this would be an ability attached straight onto the Serpent, but not present in the Falcon.

Suits me - a vehicle upgrade is best to be honest, similar to the Land Raider. And it'd be nice to disembark out the front, too

For it to make sense that we could disembark from the front we would need a brand new model. I think it would be better to give a power to HB's SS's and 'Quins a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking rather than just adding an assault ramp, it would just serve to make dragons even better.

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Wraithguard as troop :: It's sort of an anti-thesis for Eldar to have post-TEQ as troop choice. It's necessary for Iyanden-flair armies, though. I'd say either Wraithguard as troop choice OR a special Iyanden character that's specifically not named Yriel.

Agreed - this is a common new trait and I'm happy with it. Make the HQ unit something similar to the FW Wraithseer - like that SW Dread HQ guy. More flexibility in building unique armies better reflects the wholly different styles each craftworld seems to create for themselves.

The wraithseer would be EPIC. The other suggestion was bringing back the old character Iyana, but either way I'd be happy

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Phoenix Lords :: well... current point of discussion.

I know the idea sounds OP - but at the elevated cost of the models, I couldn't see a whole army of Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers breaking the game - they still retain the same old flaws of the fragile space-elves, and it's not like some well-ordered bolter drill couldn't smash the crap out that army.

I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of facing off against 6 units of fire dragons. It would be a cool idea and would probably work well for some aspects, but (as with most things) its the few that it wouldn't work for could break the codex.

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Shuricannon :: Hmm... I've suggested S4 Heavy 6, just to break the Eldar "what flavour of S6 do you want to shoot"

This is better. A codex-specific special rule is ok, but I prefer this statline.

As do I

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:WS = Warp Spiders? :: They're really good. They just cost a bit much. We've toyed with simply appending a Nightspinner's Monofilament rule. What say you?

I cannot remember a game where I've managed to use them to full effect. Maybe it's just me. That idea is nice though, and also (after re-reading my old codexes - see below - the old Spiders used a flamer template. THAT is an effective weapon.

I suggested giving them range:template S:2 AP- Type:assault 1, Monofiament. It would make their direct killing power pretty poor, and thier primarry use would just be slowing the enemy down. I dont think a unit of 10 would be a good idea if they can lay down so many hits though.

Tek wrote:Augment
5 Points (!)
Unlike other Warlock powers, the Warlock must pass a psychic test to use Augment. If the test is successful, the range of the Farseers power is doubled.
Does not stack.
Each Warlock can only use this power once per turn.
Warlock must be attached to the Farseer.
If a Warlock fails the power, another may attempt.

I like this too

If I recall correctly, Augment also had a line regarding that the Warlock did not suffer POTW from this test.

Template for Warp Spider is good, but it's only got 6" effective range, meaning they'll need a beefed up melee potential or a significantly improved second jump in order to ensure continued tactical implementation.
S2* Roll against initiative? Orks are cheap and necrons have armour, but this prevents them from being uber-effective against fast, but expensive, Eldar.

Gorechild wrote:

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Assault after disembark :: Most posters in this thread wish Banshees to have this, I, personally, would argue that all melee models in the army need this. This leads to mechanization, true, but the melee portion of the Eldar army is in dire need of some spit and polish. I'd say this would be an ability attached straight onto the Serpent, but not present in the Falcon.

Suits me - a vehicle upgrade is best to be honest, similar to the Land Raider. And it'd be nice to disembark out the front, too

For it to make sense that we could disembark from the front we would need a brand new model. I think it would be better to give a power to HB's SS's and 'Quins a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking rather than just adding an assault ramp, it would just serve to make dragons even better.

Definitely, although I am not sure if it fits better to have it as a HB exarch power or give it to all melee units (mainly since 'quins can't have a dedicated transport). I personally think it should be either an HB exarch power or a rule just for HB and SS.

Gorechild wrote:

Tek wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Shuricannon :: Hmm... I've suggested S4 Heavy 6, just to break the Eldar "what flavour of S6 do you want to shoot"

This is better. A codex-specific special rule is ok, but I prefer this statline.

As do I

I'd say shuriken cannons should rather be S5 Assault 4 (there are some on foot who carries SC:s, such as the death jester). Perhaps you have noticed that nearly all eldar heavy weapons have an evenly strength value (4,6,8 and so on). Also, does this mean shuriken weapons are not supposed to be rending?
While speaking about heavy weapons, for gods sake, make the starcannon S7 Heavy1 Blast.

On a different note (though it may not be the right time), I think the Autarch should be able to take some more kinds of wargear. A fusion pistol would be nice, and some more kinds of cc weapon. Perhaps a powered scorpion sword.

Gorechild wrote:Hey Tek, thanks for the posts, it aways helps to get another point of view, sometimes it feel like nothing is getting anywhere without it

No worries man - just doing my bit

Gorechild wrote:Maybe make it a transport that is only available to elite choices? although there will be another boost to FD's by letting them use melta bombs straight away as well.

This is a nice idea. I suppose you make a point about super-awesome melta bomb action. Bye Bye Land Raider.

Gorechild wrote:For it to make sense that we could disembark from the front we would need a brand new model. I think it would be better to give a power to HB's SS's and 'Quins a rule that allows them to assault after disembarking rather than just adding an assault ramp, it would just serve to make dragons even better.

Yeah I was partially kidding with that. The only problem with adding on the rule, is it would most likely be an Exarch power? Unless it's a USR that assault troops have, or maybe wargear? If it's a power, it's adding cost and I don't like doing that.

Gorechild wrote:The wraithseer would be EPIC. The other suggestion was bringing back the old character Iyana, but either way I'd be happy

Never got Iyana. The Saim-Hann wildrider character however, he was awesome. Riding a Vyper whilst holding a lance? Awesome.

Gorechild wrote:I can't say I'm a fan of the idea of facing off against 6 units of fire dragons. It would be a cool idea and would probably work well for some aspects, but (as with most things) its the few that it wouldn't work for could break the codex.

If they were on foot there'd be no contest. If we count them as being six-strong gangs Fire Dragons, that's still 576 points for six (naked) units. If you want to Serpent them up that's going to cost a lot more. Let's call it 1250 with transports. Add in an Eldrad or something and we're practically bang on 1500 after upgrades. That's a killer list isn't it? But it's not like a couldn't hammer that with guard, or marines. Yeah it would be a tough build, but it wouldn't be a leaflblower.

Tek wrote:Augment
5 Points (!)
Unlike other Warlock powers, the Warlock must pass a psychic test to use Augment. If the test is successful, the range of the Farseers power is doubled.
Does not stack.
Each Warlock can only use this power once per turn.
Warlock must be attached to the Farseer.
If a Warlock fails the power, another may attempt.

I like this too