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Well, write down the units that would actually use assaulting from a transport: Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins, Storm Guardians and Warlock Council. If the contents of a transport is particularly weak, then Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers as well.
As a tactic, though, only the four would.

Out of these, Guardians is something of a blight, they're really too weak to go assaulting at that point cost, but if they are going to fit in to a mech-list it's either going to be as flame-throwers or as melee infantry. Short of re-writing Guardians completely, they are currently melee *

Warlock Council is the second one that we're not discussing. Personally, I recon they merit having an Elite slot all by themselves. I can't recall very many who recommend sitting a Farseer in a foot-council simply since a bike council or a warlock embedded in a foot unit with a completely different purpose is better.

--

Six units of Fire Dragons wouldn't do a lot. Their guns are strong, and they'd not leave any sort of vehicle alive for long, but simple boys half their point value obliterate them. It's the concept of having an elite, rare, super combat cadre of space elves as something common whose main job is securing positions.
And not only that, it also encourages spamming. It's sort of against the concept of an Eldar list. An Eldar list brings a single unit of Striking Scorpions to scoop up and destroy GEQ, a single unit of Banshees to obliterate any MEQ, and a single unit of Fire Dragon can openers to make sure the aforementioned can do their job. Sticking either of these into troop gives the wrong impression.
That said, neither Scorpions nor Banshees are stellar at what they do.

* Again, Guardian special weapons squad come to mind. More meltas, flamers, and shotgun-equivalents than melee weapons would suit them.
A Guardian Defender unit with flamers could be made workable, but I struggle to make a Guardian Storm unit workable conceptually.

Mahtamori wrote:Well, write down the units that would actually use assaulting from a transport: Banshees, Scorpions, Harlequins, Storm Guardians and Warlock Council. If the contents of a transport is particularly weak, then Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers as well.
As a tactic, though, only the four would..

FD might use assault transports. If you dont kill it with fusion guns you could assault it with meltabombs. Also if you provide a venom like vehicle for eldar I dont see why you would invest the points in the WS or Falcon when a cheaper venom would be faster. a 4+ save on FD means they dont have to worry as much about thier transport blowing up(like wyches do) As you argue so often, I dont see galavating around in opentopped AV10 transports being very fluffy for a Dieing race. As an upgrade for existing WS and Falcons I am all for it. Just make it expensive enough that scorpians, quins and banshees will take it but most other units will leave it behind. (No I dont like the idea of a Seer Council, ancient and wise leading from the front of an assault army.)

Mahtamori wrote:
Six units of Fire Dragons wouldn't do a lot. Their guns are strong, and they'd not leave any sort of vehicle alive for long, but simple boys half their point value obliterate them. It's the concept of having an elite, rare, super combat cadre of space elves as something common whose main job is securing positions.
And not only that, it also encourages spamming. It's sort of against the concept of an Eldar list. An Eldar list brings a single unit of Striking Scorpions to scoop up and destroy GEQ, a single unit of Banshees to obliterate any MEQ, and a single unit of Fire Dragon can openers to make sure the aforementioned can do their job. Sticking either of these into troop gives the wrong impression.
That said, neither Scorpions nor Banshees are stellar at what they do.
.

I disagree that 6 firedragons wouldnt be a good list. Many of the competitive lists currently take 3 because that is the max allowable. No other army can field that much melta, not even guard.
I do agree that fluffwise 6 squads of FD is a bad idea. Eldar are supposed to be multicolor with each squad unique. They are not supposed to be 6 identical squads all doing the same thing.

Exergy wrote:I do agree that fluffwise 6 squads of FD is a bad idea. Eldar are supposed to be multicolor with each squad unique. They are not supposed to be 6 identical squads all doing the same thing.

I wholly disagree. Iyanden is all yellow, as they have so few aspect troops left. Ulthwe is all black, due to the large numbers of Black Guardians, and not a lot else. Saim Hann is all red as they're all riding jetbikes. The whole point is that there should be a bunch of ways you can play the Eldar, not the watered-down "Mech Dire Avengers and as Many Dragons as you can take" builds which are the norm right now.

Contrary to your comment, this is already in the fluff. In Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Biel Tan armies could take any aspect as troops, with Guardians, Rangers and Vypers moving to elite. Iyanden could take Wraithguard and Wraithlords as troops, Guardians became heavy support!

Each craftworld has a unique way of fighting, and not every craftworld uses aspect warriors. Some craftworlds have different aspect shrines, and not every aspect is represented on each craftworld. For instance you've got those shining orbs of xandos (or whatever they're called) from the 2ed Codex, mentioned only by name as being represented on one craftworld, and one only.

I think this is very fluffy, moreso that the newer 4ed 'dex, which reduces every craftworld to essentially the same army build. There are literally three builds for Eldar. Opening up scoring aspects drastically changes the way in which you can play.

Tek wrote:

Exergy wrote:I do agree that fluffwise 6 squads of FD is a bad idea. Eldar are supposed to be multicolor with each squad unique. They are not supposed to be 6 identical squads all doing the same thing.

I wholly disagree. Iyanden is all yellow, as they have so few aspect troops left. Ulthwe is all black, due to the large numbers of Black Guardians, and not a lot else. Saim Hann is all red as they're all riding jetbikes. The whole point is that there should be a bunch of ways you can play the Eldar, not the watered-down "Mech Dire Avengers and as Many Dragons as you can take" builds which are the norm right now.

Contrary to your comment, this is already in the fluff. In Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Biel Tan armies could take any aspect as troops, with Guardians, Rangers and Vypers moving to elite. Iyanden could take Wraithguard and Wraithlords as troops, Guardians became heavy support!

Each craftworld has a unique way of fighting, and not every craftworld uses aspect warriors. Some craftworlds have different aspect shrines, and not every aspect is represented on each craftworld. For instance you've got those shining orbs of xandos (or whatever they're called) from the 2ed Codex, mentioned only by name as being represented on one craftworld, and one only.

I think this is very fluffy, moreso that the newer 4ed 'dex, which reduces every craftworld to essentially the same army build. There are literally three builds for Eldar. Opening up scoring aspects drastically changes the way in which you can play.

I have never heard of a huge gaggle of howling banshees getting together and going to war. Nor have i heard about a bunch of striking scorpians doing so. That is what I mean.

Allowing the PLs to make their aspects troops allows for way too much spamming. Scoring is ... an ok upgrade for PLs to confer, but i don't think it is fluffy, and I think it is hamhanded in a game-design sense, and reeks of the same stench that throwing rending at a weapon reeks of. There are better changes to a PL that could make them viable than scoring or troop aspects.

Also, assaulting out of a transport should not be a part of the eldar army, in my opinion. Assaults can already be set up out of a wave serpent. The bigger problem is that banshees (the primary transport assault unit) aren't that great in assault - they're ok, but i don't think it would be accurate to say "they hit like a dumptruck". With a farseer, it isn't hard to invest upwards of 450 points on a single assault, we should get more out of it. Improve banshees, not the transport.

Further, I'll go ahead and say that it is nuts to design an AV12 Energy Fielded Fast Skimmer Assault Transport Tank that costs less than 200 points with no weapons on it. It shouldn't be done. If we really need to have troops assaulting after disembark, add it to the unit that is assaulting, not the tank that carries them. It is more elegant, and has less synergy problems.

Aspect Wraithlords - no thanks. Some aspects are awesome, some are bad.

Barring a major redirection in codex design from GW, I think there is a high probability the next codex will see FOC re-arrangement from special characters, rules like "An army including Iyanna may take squads of Wraithguard of any size as troops, but may only include two units of type: Aspect Warrior". Looking in this direction for the HQ section is probably worthwhile to feel out what is out there.

Probably:
Iyanna (FW wraithlord-seer becomes her entombed husband, or whatever it is) (Iyanden)
Yriel (Corsairs)
Eldrad (Ulthwe)
Wildrider (Saim hann)
Ranger hero (Altaioc)
Some aspect hero (Biel Tann)

The PLs... the basic design of them for the next codex has some obvious elements. 4+ invuln across the board. They need to do something besides be more-of-the-same, or you might as well buy another unit of their aspect. I don't know what they should do, but they shouldn't make their aspect scoring or make them troops.

Oh, and in regard to the whole "CWE had this!" argument... CWE was broken as hell. Having rules specific to craftworlds is fine, but the rules can't make things broken. Ranger disruption table? Clowncars? Am I mis-remembering the games i've watched and the rules i read in that codex? Sorry, but in my opinion, the only thing more broken then wanting to take fire dragons as troops is wanting to have Falcons as Ded. Transports.

I agree with Gwyidion - give banshees assault drill as a special rule or exarch power, not a vehicle upgrade. Another thing that could make the assault units more desirable would be to give scorpions fleet (and spiders too, for that matter - heck, incubi have it!).
Also, regarding PL:s, I don't care if we keep them or remove them, as long as other Sc:s are added (like those pointed out above).

1) Bring back craftworld special rules.

2) Allow Vipers / Wave Serpents / Jetbikes to bring Melta Weapons.

3) Allow Autarchs to bring a teleport becon that allows units to come in from reserve with no scatter.

Allow elite units with an exarch with a teleport beon to teleport to other exarchs / autarchs with the said becon.

Make falcons BS4.

Give Dark Reapers an option to bring actual heavy weapons...

Allow wave serpents to bring a second heavy weapon while not being twin linked.

Alow certain eldar themes like aspet/pathfinder/wraith themes to have special rules that actually allow for them to be effective.

Make starcannons heavy 3 and scatter lasers str 7.

Allow wave serpents to bring underslung flamers.

actually make eldar interesting again....give craftworld themes special rules.

Gwyidion wrote: Iyanna (FW wraithlord-seer becomes her entombed husband, or whatever it is) (Iyanden)
Yriel (Corsairs)
Eldrad (Ulthwe)
Wildrider (Saim hann)
Ranger hero (Altaioc)
Some aspect hero (Biel Tann)

Maybe continue Iyanna's fluff saying she died and had her stone put into a wraithseer? That could be awesome. If not just keep her as a female farseer, chuck in another power, make Wraithguard into troops and Wraithords as heavy support and/or elite's.

Yriel depends on how the FW corsairs stuff turns out, this could be good inspiration on what direction to take them.

Eldrad - continue his fluff, he returns from the EoT with even more funky powers, allow all warocks in the army to take up to two powers and use both each turn. give him a mandatory seer council to stop him being spammed with every random unit.

Nahdu (sp?) the vyper riding lance packing madman could just allow jetbikes to take fusion guns or flamers as well as shuricannons.

Hoec makes ranger ong rifles assault 1 instead of heavy 1, then make him an insane long range sniping machine.

Maybe give Biel Tan an awesome Autarch character? I dont kow if there are any, but it wouldnt be hard to make one up.

Maybe give Biel Tan an awesome Autarch character? I dont kow if there are any, but it wouldnt be hard to make one up.

Such as... Reqhiel, Autarch of Biel-Tan - 140 pints? No, changed to 175.
WS7 BS7 S3 T3 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Unit type: Infantry
Wargear: Force Shield (4+ Invulnerable Save), Plasma Grenades, Banshee mask, Fusion Gun, Fusion Pistol (perhaps), Sword of Bahzhakain
Sword of Bahzhakain: This sword is said to have been a gift from Khaine, appearing in front of the Avatar of Khaine when Biel-Tan left the Eldar homeworlds. It fills the wielder with such rage that he appears to be possessed by the God of War. It is a power weapon which grants the wielder +D6 attacks - roll at the beginning of each round of combat - and the Furious Charge special rule.
Special Rules: Fleet of Foot, Independent Character, Master Strategist

Then, maybe some craftworld rule, though I dunno what that would be. Maybe allow the force to take a court of the young king (unit with various kinds of exarchs).

Appart from the fact that the avatars werent around before the eldar left on the craftworlds (as Khaine hadn't been smashed up yet )

Maybe 1 unit of each aspect can be taken as a troop choice? It would stop spamming and give you a very varied selection of units.

Gorechild wrote:Appart from the fact that the avatars werent around before the eldar left on the craftworlds (as Khaine hadn't been smashed up yet )

Fine, fine, have it like this then:
Sword of Bahzhakain: This sword is said to have been a gift from Khaine, appearing on Biel-Tan together with the Avatar of Khaine. It fills the wielder with such rage that he appears to be possessed by the God of War. It is a power weapon which grants the wielder +D6 attacks - roll at the beginning of each round of combat - and the Furious Charge special rule.

Gorechild wrote:Maybe 1 unit of each aspect can be taken as a troop choice? It would stop spamming and give you a very varied selection of units.

I like that! Though, maybe shining spears shouldn't be affected. Or maybe they should.

The only issue would be keeping track of which unit is the scoring one. If you took 4 units of banshees (1 troop 3 elite) and 4 units of warp spiders (1 troop 3 fast attack) how would you be able to tell the scoring unit appart from the elite or fast attack units?

Saintspirit wrote:

Maybe give Biel Tan an awesome Autarch character? I dont kow if there are any, but it wouldnt be hard to make one up.

Such as... Reqhiel, Autarch of Biel-Tan - 140 pints?
WS7 BS7 S3 T3 W3 I6 A4 Ld10 Sv3+
Unit type: Infantry
Wargear: Force Shield (4+ Invulnerable Save), Plasma Grenades, Banshee mask, Fusion Gun, Fusion Pistol (perhaps), Sword of Bahzhakain
Sword of Bahzhakain: This sword is said to have been a gift from Khaine, appearing in front of the Avatar of Khaine when Biel-Tan left the Eldar homeworlds. It fills the wielder with such rage that he appears to be possessed by the God of War. It is a power weapon which grants the wielder +D6 attacks - roll at the beginning of each round of combat - and the Furious Charge special rule.
Special Rules: Fleet of Foot, Independent Character, Master Strategist

Then, maybe some craftworld rule, though I dunno what that would be. Maybe allow the force to take a court of the young king (unit with various kinds of exarchs).

undercosted, seems like a better version of lelith hesperex with shooting and some special rules. for 35pts less. Now lelith is not very good but i think 175 might be fair for this guy as written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwyidion wrote:Allowing the PLs to make their aspects troops allows for way too much spamming. Scoring is ... an ok upgrade for PLs to confer, but i don't think it is fluffy, and I think it is hamhanded in a game-design sense, and reeks of the same stench that throwing rending at a weapon reeks of. There are better changes to a PL that could make them viable than scoring or troop aspects.

Also, assaulting out of a transport should not be a part of the eldar army, in my opinion. Assaults can already be set up out of a wave serpent. The bigger problem is that banshees (the primary transport assault unit) aren't that great in assault - they're ok, but i don't think it would be accurate to say "they hit like a dumptruck". With a farseer, it isn't hard to invest upwards of 450 points on a single assault, we should get more out of it. Improve banshees, not the transport.

Further, I'll go ahead and say that it is nuts to design an AV12 Energy Fielded Fast Skimmer Assault Transport Tank that costs less than 200 points with no weapons on it. It shouldn't be done. If we really need to have troops assaulting after disembark, add it to the unit that is assaulting, not the tank that carries them. It is more elegant, and has less synergy problems.

Aspect Wraithlords - no thanks. Some aspects are awesome, some are bad.

Barring a major redirection in codex design from GW, I think there is a high probability the next codex will see FOC re-arrangement from special characters, rules like "An army including Iyanna may take squads of Wraithguard of any size as troops, but may only include two units of type: Aspect Warrior". Looking in this direction for the HQ section is probably worthwhile to feel out what is out there.

The PLs... the basic design of them for the next codex has some obvious elements. 4+ invuln across the board. They need to do something besides be more-of-the-same, or you might as well buy another unit of their aspect. I don't know what they should do, but they shouldn't make their aspect scoring or make them troops.

Oh, and in regard to the whole "CWE had this!" argument... CWE was broken as hell. Having rules specific to craftworlds is fine, but the rules can't make things broken. Ranger disruption table? Clowncars? Am I mis-remembering the games i've watched and the rules i read in that codex? Sorry, but in my opinion, the only thing more broken then wanting to take fire dragons as troops is wanting to have Falcons as Ded. Transports.

+1

undercosted, seems like a better version of lelith hesperex with shooting and some special rules. for 35pts less. Now lelith is not very good but i think 175 might be fair for this guy as written.

Sure, fine by me. 175 it is then.

Ok I think I'm the only one who doesn't think scoring Aspects is OP.The idea of having some scoring, and some not is just open to abuse.

You know you'll be playing TFG and they scoring unit will always be the one left at the end of the game, holding that objective.

And as for Exergy's comments about huge gaggles of Banshees (oh btw, excellent collective noun usage) going to war - what's wrong with some new fluff? You couldn't get a huge amount in an army amyway - they're too expensive. Considering you'd be spending over 200 points natively to buy the PL to unlock the ability too, you're essentially scuppering your chances.

But hang on! I just thought! If each PL makes its aspect scoring, the FoC still needs to be adhered to, so it's not like you could have six lots of them anyway. Adding scoring doesn't make these guys OP in the slightest, it just means they can sit down in a very important house at the right time of the game.

Oh, I don't think it's OP, I just think it's wrong. For most of them. I'm cool with Banshees and maybe Scorpions, but Dragons, Reapers, and Spears is just... wrong.
Adding scoring is probably the best way to do it, though.

I guess I'd just be content with cutting them from the HQ section completely and have them as a one-off exarch upgrades.

Exergy, no, it doesn't make sense. The Eldar aren't much for dense armour, though, so I'd simply take a Vyper, remove the top gun, add transport capacity, and then add a holographic projector. Not a Holo Field, but something that gives direct applicable protection against getting hit. Call it a luck save.

My obvious reason for enthusiam is twofold - firstly, I think we'd have some interesting potential for fun builds, and secondly - literally no-one takes Phoenix Lords. I have an Asurmen (whom I've never played), and my mate John has a Maugan Ra and a Baharroth, the latter of which never gets played.

The idea of sitting Reapers in an objective and actually have them hold it is very cool. Same for the assault aspects. Spiders and Spears currently have no fear of being scoring by this proposed system.

I just finished painting my Fire Dragon Wraithlord. Thought I'd mention that other idea...

@Tek - The way I see it is that it would be a cool little addition to some aspects in the current codex if if they became scoring if you have the PL. I think if the less competitive options were fixed for a new codex, adding this as well could be a bit much though. Even with the current codex, I think it would be too much with some aspects. Also, as Mahtamori brings up every so often...what benefit would this change have for Asurmen and the Dire Avengers? He'd still be as unused as he is now.

Well agreed, this is very true. My obvious fix would be to move DAs into the Elite slot.

Guardians and SGs in the troops, unlock aspects by taking a PL. Again, I don't think adding scoring is adding too much to the troops, as you could spam four (is it four elites?) Fire Dragon units into one army, but you're really cutting your nose off with a move like that. You're removing any flexibility in the army, and let's face it, you can already take that many units anyway.

I dunno - I think it's a good idea.

Dire Avengers as elites is not an idea I'd go for. In truth, DA:s are the "main" Eldar troop choice, guardians are not. It has already been proposed that Asurmen would make avengers stubborn while the other PLs make their aspect scoring (although I'd personally rather remove them altogether).
Also, you can only take three elites.

Saintspirit wrote:Dire Avengers as elites is not an idea I'd go for. In truth, DA's are the "main" Eldar troop choice, guardians are not. It has already been proposed that Asurmen would make avengers stubborn while the other PLs make their aspect scoring (although I'd personally rather remove them altogether).

I must have missed (or forgotten) that suggestion...I like it. I'm also against DA's being elites, Guardians are only drafted in when the aspect warriors arent numerous enough to hold off the enemy. Making them the armys main troop choice would be un-fluffy and put even more strain on the elite slot.

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Dire Avengers as elites is not an idea I'd go for. In truth, DA's are the "main" Eldar troop choice, guardians are not. It has already been proposed that Asurmen would make avengers stubborn while the other PLs make their aspect scoring (although I'd personally rather remove them altogether).

I must have missed (or forgotten) that suggestion...I like it. I'm also against DA's being elites, Guardians are only drafted in when the aspect warriors arent numerous enough to hold off the enemy. Making them the armys main troop choice would be un-fluffy and put even more strain on the elite slot.

Which one? Stubborn on DAs or removing the lords altogether?
Actually, I feel we aren't really coming anywhere... maybe it's time for MkIII?

Saintspirit wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Dire Avengers as elites is not an idea I'd go for. In truth, DA's are the "main" Eldar troop choice, guardians are not. It has already been proposed that Asurmen would make avengers stubborn while the other PLs make their aspect scoring (although I'd personally rather remove them altogether).

I must have missed (or forgotten) that suggestion...I like it. I'm also against DA's being elites, Guardians are only drafted in when the aspect warriors arent numerous enough to hold off the enemy. Making them the armys main troop choice would be un-fluffy and put even more strain on the elite slot.

Which one? Stubborn on DAs or removing the lords altogether?
Actually, I feel we aren't really coming anywhere... maybe it's time for MkIII?

Okay, assuming we are going to keep PL as HQ.
1. PL attached to same aspect unit is fearless and gets +1 attack
2. PL allows same aspect to be considered scoring.
3. Asurmen acts as a chapter banner increasing all DA within 12" to fearless with +1 attack.

I much preferred the "shadow" PL idea of making them an exarch upgrade as putting pressure on the HQ slot is not really a good thing and makes PL still a rarity to the army.

We could make the upgrade the PL's confer more basic. Assuming that Aspect statlines stay at ws/bs 4, A PL could boost the WS, BS & I of all same-aspect models by 1.

Ranged aspects are all hitting on 2s, melee aspects hit most things on 3s.

The basic fluff is that the aspect warriors, in the presence of the greatest warrior their aspect has ever known, are focused that much more. It would tie in nicely with the supposed psychic abilities every eldar possesses. If it isn't enough, add stubborn to the upgrade.

This post turned a bit longer than I intended, here's a table of contents
Eldar Phoenix Lords as Exarch upgrades.
Eldar Guardians combined
A different look on heavy weapons platforms
Refinement on the Simulacrum idea
Eldar version of the Venom

I'd say that essentially, a Phoenix Lord would best be:
* Exarch with +1 BS, WS, In, A.
* Exarch with unique weapons (Maugetar, for example)
* Additionally confer Fearless
* Non-IC and unique
That's it. This for a price of around +50 points depending on the aspect and special weapons involved. A hefty upgrade, but the Phoenix Lord would not be targetable in melee and have significantly improved damage potential both in melee and in shooting.
The fluff portion of the Phoenix Lords would kick back somewhat to third edition where it was hinted that Phoenix Lords are not necessarily truly alive, but rather mighty spirits animating the armour they reside within - in which case the destruction of a Phoenix Lord does not equate to the loss of said character for the race as such.
Additionally, this approach allows for generic Phoenix Lords to be created for aspects without them, where a Phoenix Lord has statlines but only the most prominent of them have history and fluff. I dislike spreading fearless or stubborn beyond the unit involved, as this may interfere with the effectiveness of the Avatar as well as limit the potential options for psychic power refinements.

Somewhat unrelated. Spinning on some ideas.

Guardians - Essentially, what if keeping them at a steep price, but allowing them more customizability than is common among Eldar Aspects, where the options and upgrades are kept cheaper. I.e. you're meant to upgrade them. (Also, this assumes we're killing off Storm and Defender differentiation)
Shuriken Catapult kept the same, the following options are added:
* One in three may be replace their Shuriken Catapult with Flamer or Fusion Gun for +6 points or a Shuriken Cannon (it's assault in current codex, btw) for +10 points.
* One in three may be given a Simulacrum (see below) for +5 points.
* Any number of Guardians may replace their Shuriken Catapult with a Shuriken Pistol and Monofilament Blade (re-roll armour saves) at no additional cost.
* A guardian squad may be accompanied by a weapons platform (see below)

Weapons platform: An antigravity platform controlled by an Eldar spirit stone. The platform will fire upon any target the Guardian unit it is slaved to shoots upon, at BS3, but is otherwise treated as a token rather than a model part of the unit. The platform must always be kept in squad coherency and takes up the same space as an infantry model would in a transport. A weapons platform treats the weapon mounted on it as if it were an assault weapon.

Simulacrum: Available for all Eldar living infantry (not Wraithguard).
Adds a model which has zero-level characteristics, is ignored for all purposes of leadership and combat resolution. A simulacrum has a 4+ invulnerability save, and is returned to the troop at the beginning of the controlling model's unit at the beginning of the controlling players movement phase should it ever be removed for any purpose as long as the controlling model is still in play. A simulacrum is removed if the controlling model leaves play.
A simulacrum is an advanced holographic projector attached to an Eldar warrior's armour, which projects a perfect copy of the warrior in close proximity to the warrior. This copy is essentially invulnerable, although enemies will eventually catch on that the Eldar they are firing on is not real as such and that the bullets only zip through it. Because of the nature of the Simulacrum projection, it tends to be poorly hidden and is often the first target sighted, and consequentially fired upon.

Sparrow-Hawk: A Sparrowhawk is an Eldar dedicated transport, similar to a Venom. 25 points.
BS 3, AV 10 / 10 / 10
Fast, Skimmer, Open-topped.
Equipment: Under-slung twin-linked Shuriken Catapult, Displacement Projector.
Transport capacity: 6 normal-sized infantry.
Options: The under-slung twin-linked may be upgraded to a twin-linked flamer or a Shuriken Cannon at +10 points. May take ordinary Eldar vehicle upgrades available to skimmers.

Displacement Projector: Similar to Simulacrum, a displacement projector will continually hide and project the vehicles true position. With only a slightly erratic movement pattern, a driver in a vehicle outfitted with a displacement projector may be able to foil most efforts to effectively aim at the vehicle.
Any model shooting at a vehicle equipped with a displacement projector must re-roll successful shooting attacks on it.
(Naturally does not function against template weapons nor on blast markers which scatter on it)

Mahtamori wrote:Sparrow-Hawk: A Sparrowhawk is an Eldar dedicated transport, similar to a Venom. 25 points.
BS 3, AV 10 / 10 / 10
Fast, Skimmer, Open-topped.
Equipment: Under-slung twin-linked Shuriken Catapult, Displacement Projector.
Transport capacity: 6 normal-sized infantry.
Options: The under-slung twin-linked may be upgraded to a twin-linked flamer or a Shuriken Cannon at +10 points. May take ordinary Eldar vehicle upgrades available to skimmers.

Displacement Projector: Similar to Simulacrum, a displacement projector will continually hide and project the vehicles true position. With only a slightly erratic movement pattern, a driver in a vehicle outfitted with a displacement projector may be able to foil most efforts to effectively aim at the vehicle.
Any model shooting at a vehicle equipped with a displacement projector must re-roll successful shooting attacks on it.
(Naturally does not function against template weapons nor on blast markers which scatter on it)

Way undercosted.
A DE venom is 55 points while carrying less models.The displacement projector is better than a flickerfield(better against BS3, the same against BS4, worse against closecombat, stacks with flat out save and cover(FFs do not)). Yes the Venom has another weapon, but thats not worth 30 points. Fast Skimming transports are hugely powerful, you have to make them more than rhinos.

I would suggest 5 models, 6++ invulerable AV10, BS3, Fast, Open Topped Skimmer for 40pts. Even at those prices I think that would spell the end of wave serpants ever being taken compettively in eldar armies.

It's not so much the cost as the concept, I actually dumped the price on it because how ridiculously inexpensive a heavier armoured Rhino tank is, although 25 points is a very low and probably slipped past proof-reading.
Keep in mind that, on average a Venom transports stronger models, meaning that a slot of transport capacity isn't the same across codexes.
Personally, I'd rather keep the concept than the cost. Oh, and 6 capacity is a basic squad plus an IC.

I'd argue the stats I described at 40 points is more fair, simply because a Venom is still useful after you drop the troops off, a Sparrow-Hawk would be a glorified Jetbike without the durability.

The difficulty is making the increased capacity of the Serpent attractive inspite of it not having assault ramp or fire ports.
Contrary to a Sparrow Hawk, however, a Serpent is capable of tank shocking an objective for last turn contest and it is also large enough to claim an objective through the same tactics if you guess range well - provided it sprung from a troop choice.

I don't see a Sparrow-Hawk usurping the Wave Serpent - challenging for it's own niche, but not usurping - I do still not see a place for the Falcon, though.

After skimming over it I have two thoughts, this is a big thread so I apologize if someone else already stated therm. First off, rending on all the basic shurkien weapons insanely OP. That would let the basic troop with should be 6-8 points a model damage everything except armour 14. I would agree that the guardians should be BS 4 and have 18 inch range but not rending, allow them to take more heavy weapon batteries maybe. Second, allow different HQ's to change force org, an autarch can unlock one type of aspect warrior as a troop, a farseer can become a spirit seer and allow wraithguard to score. Everything else is abut right, maybe make the Falcon an assualt vehicle, people might take them then. Oh and give banshee's FC with the exarch so they can do something by their lonesome. Yes thats 4 thoughts.

Mahtamori wrote:Keep in mind that, on average a Venom transports stronger models, meaning that a slot of transport capacity isn't the same across codexes.

Venoms transport incubi occationally but often carry wracks, trueborn or warriors which are less expensive than aspect warriors. They also do not nice saves which means that when their transport does blow up they die in droves, something that most aspect warriors will have to fear less.

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Keep in mind that, on average a Venom transports stronger models, meaning that a slot of transport capacity isn't the same across codexes.

Venoms transport incubi occationally but often carry wracks, trueborn or warriors which are less expensive than aspect warriors. They also do not nice saves which means that when their transport does blow up they die in droves, something that most aspect warriors will have to fear less.

I'm not really trying to get under your skin, but your comparing the cost of a discounted 5th edition codex to an outdated 4th edition codex. 10 points is close to where Dire Avengers with their current stats ought to cost, and that's not counting that they haven't got any real options the way that Warriors/Trueborn have.

The only real problem is an open-topped transport with infinite amount of fire ports for Fire Dragons.

Another option is to have the small transport being a closed transport with assault ramp rule and beefed up defenses. Aimed at costing 50-60% of a Serpent with 50% capacity. This takes care of the Fire Dragon problem (they're such a pain, conceptually).