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Saintspirit wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:Dire Avengers as elites is not an idea I'd go for. In truth, DA's are the "main" Eldar troop choice, guardians are not. It has already been proposed that Asurmen would make avengers stubborn while the other PLs make their aspect scoring (although I'd personally rather remove them altogether).

I must have missed (or forgotten) that suggestion...I like it. I'm also against DA's being elites, Guardians are only drafted in when the aspect warriors arent numerous enough to hold off the enemy. Making them the armys main troop choice would be un-fluffy and put even more strain on the elite slot.

Which one? Stubborn on DAs or removing the lords altogether?
Actually, I feel we aren't really coming anywhere... maybe it's time for MkIII?

The subborn one I'd ike to keep the PL's but think the exarch upgrade wopuld be the best way forward.
I was going to save MKIII for when I've finished writing up the fandex, that way people wount have to scroll back through hundreds of posts, they'd just have to read the PDF and we can update it as we go

Gwyidion wrote:We could make the upgrade the PL's confer more basic. Assuming that Aspect statlines stay at ws/bs 4, A PL could boost the WS, BS & I of all same-aspect models by 1.

Ranged aspects are all hitting on 2s, melee aspects hit most things on 3s.

The basic fluff is that the aspect warriors, in the presence of the greatest warrior their aspect has ever known, are focused that much more. It would tie in nicely with the supposed psychic abilities every eldar possesses. If it isn't enough, add stubborn to the upgrade.

Fearless might be okay (athough its a bit of a double edged sword some times) depending on how we sort out the Avatar. If we made the Avatar confer one and PL's confer the other?

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:Sparrow-Hawk: A Sparrowhawk is an Eldar dedicated transport, similar to a Venom. 25 points.
BS 3, AV 10 / 10 / 10
Fast, Skimmer, Open-topped.
Equipment: Under-slung twin-linked Shuriken Catapult, Displacement Projector.
Transport capacity: 6 normal-sized infantry.
Options: The under-slung twin-linked may be upgraded to a twin-linked flamer or a Shuriken Cannon at +10 points. May take ordinary Eldar vehicle upgrades available to skimmers.

Displacement Projector: Similar to Simulacrum, a displacement projector will continually hide and project the vehicles true position. With only a slightly erratic movement pattern, a driver in a vehicle outfitted with a displacement projector may be able to foil most efforts to effectively aim at the vehicle.
Any model shooting at a vehicle equipped with a displacement projector must re-roll successful shooting attacks on it.
(Naturally does not function against template weapons nor on blast markers which scatter on it)

Way undercosted.
A DE venom is 55 points while carrying less models.The displacement projector is better than a flickerfield(better against BS3, the same against BS4, worse against closecombat, stacks with flat out save and cover(FFs do not)). Yes the Venom has another weapon, but thats not worth 30 points. Fast Skimming transports are hugely powerful, you have to make them more than rhinos.

I would suggest 5 models, 6++ invulerable AV10, BS3, Fast, Open Topped Skimmer for 40pts. Even at those prices I think that would spell the end of wave serpants ever being taken compettively in eldar armies.

Even ignoring the point cost (that would probably have to be nearly doubled), I don't think its in-keeping with Craftworld Eldar. Their transports are meant to be durable and fast, not super fast but paper thin as they are with Dark Eldar. I think it would be much more simple to give Banshees and Striking Scorpions an Exarch power that enables them to disembark, shoot and assault as long as their vehicles move no more than 12" in the movement phase.

Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

I find this thread to be meager at best. I personally think that the OP has a complete lack of creativity. No Units have been changed, no new ideas are set in place, no new strategies are possible, nothing out of the box has been posted or amended to the original topic.

The topic basically should be titled "Make current Eldar cheaper and mathmatically a little better"

bad topic is bad.

Smitty0305 wrote:Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

I find this thread to be meager at best. I personally think that the OP has a complete lack of creativity. No Units have been changed, no new ideas are set in place, no new strategies are possible, nothing out of the box has been posted or amended to the original topic.

Maybe writing a poor or misleading title to a thread should be a bannable offense.

I don't find rewrites or fandex efforts to be fruitful, because I can never get anyone to play vs a fandex army.

Here are my current changes, that I have playtested over 40 games against several armies.

These rules work very well and they are not a big departure from the current codex.

Rapid Advance – Eldar with fleet roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest result.
Star Cannons - strength 7.
Shuriken Catapults – Range 18”
Mind War – cost reduced to 10 points, no cover saves.
Eldritch Storm – cost reduced to 10 points, range 24”.
Runes of Warding – cost increase to 25 points
Ghost Helm Upgrade – Psychic Hoods require a 5+ roll to negate psychic abilities, if they are further than 12” from the psyker. (15 points)
Eldrad – increase cost to 240 points, and has the Ghost Helm Upgrade.
Conceal – 5+ cover save, and +1 to cover saves from terrain and units.
Augment – Up to two Warlocks with this ability who are within 6” of the Farseer may add 3” each to the range of any Farseer psychic power. If the Farseer rolls double 1’s or double 6's each augmenting warlock suffers a perils of the warp attack. (5 points)
Phoenix Lords may designate one squad of their Aspect as a troop unit.
Phoenix Lords except Asurman gain a 5++ save.
War Shout – Change the leadership test to an initiative test.
Wraith Cannon - 18" range.
Ranger Long rifle – wounds on 3+, sniper, pathfinders rend on 5+
Blade storm - Avenger Shuriken Catapults may act as assault 3 weapons or may gain the rending USR during this shooting phase. This unit may not make range attacks next turn.
Warp Spiders – Warp Jump Generators – (add) this unit rolls 1d6 to determine deep strike scatter. Surprise Assault changes to Warp Shield – This unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. (10 points)
Shining Spear’s – 3 point cost reduction, Hit and Run reduce cost to 15 points, the laser lance and star lance change to AP3 or A2.
Vypers – 35 points, Deep Strike, Vyper vehicle upgrades: stones (5), stealth field – gains the stealth USR (5 points each), Terrain Sensors – grants reroll on dangerous terrain checks. (5 points)
Swooping Hawks – 2 point cost reduction, Hawk Wings – (add) Hawks may roll to arrive from reserve on the 1st turn. They succeed on a 4+. Roll normally after that. Hawks roll 1d6 for scatter when they deploy via deep strike, Sky Leap - (add) this unit may assault the turn it deep strikes.
Wraith Lords – 2nd weapon of the same type is no longer twin linked.
Dark Reapers - Fire Control - Exarch may target a separate unit. Change Crack Shot to a unit ability that requires rerolls of cover saves (15 points)
D Cannon – 30” range, cost increase +5 points
Shadow Weaver gains the monofilament rule, +5 points.
Vibro Cannon - no cover saves.

Smitty0305 wrote:Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

I find this thread to be meager at best. I personally think that the OP has a complete lack of creativity. No Units have been changed, no new ideas are set in place, no new strategies are possible, nothing out of the box has been posted or amended to the original topic.

The topic basically should be titled "Make current Eldar cheaper and mathmatically a little better"

bad topic is bad.

I beg to differ. I think the general view has been to make the point cost of a unit justified without making the choice OP. The idea of an eldar army being a swiss army knife with the right tool being put against the right target is the goal. Thus not the OP choice. Frankly the fire dragons are still an issue because they are so cheap for their effect that I hesitate to think of any choice being made as good.

The ideas portrayed are to update and make relevant not overpower and make sickening. As far as ideas to stretch, we have not addressed that as it runs the risk of OP. I have thought of ways to make the army more psychic dependent but again I think this could be made OP too easily.

On an issue - ways to make the eldar HW platforms relevant. The biggest issue to these is no vehicle and post 5th Ed. No cover saves. Perhaps this could be handled by a new warlock power of obscure - makes anyone trying to target subject to the night vision rule to target it.

Smitty0305 wrote:Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

I find this thread to be meager at best. I personally think that the OP has a complete lack of creativity. No Units have been changed, no new ideas are set in place, no new strategies are possible, nothing out of the box has been posted or amended to the original topic.

The topic basically should be titled

bad topic is bad.

Thank you for you shining review.

I have previously put forward a lot of more radical changes and the general consensus has been that no such changes are really needed. A lot of the comments we got when looking at more dramatic overhauls (Seer Council/Autarch ect) were there wasn't much need to change things to much, as they are pretty much fine as they are. In most cases, the only real change in a new codex is to "Make current (insert race here) cheaper and mathmatically a little better". None of the 4th Ed books realy need a dramatic overhaul, its not like we're re-writing a codex that has been neglected for 10 years, merely updating the units that aren't seen as being competitive any more, so that more varied and interesting lists would be available.

Sorry if the thread isn't to your taste, but may I suggest you just don't view it if you don't like it?

Mahtamori wrote:
I'm not really trying to get under your skin, but your comparing the cost of a discounted 5th edition codex to an outdated 4th edition codex. 10 points is close to where Dire Avengers with their current stats ought to cost, and that's not counting that they haven't got any real options the way that Warriors/Trueborn have.

You are not under my skin and I hope I am not under yours. I am just trying to contribute constructively. As a primary DE player, I just want to point out the pains the DE dex pays for its open topped transport assault range goodness. the new eldar codex should have some assault options, but it shouldnt be just as fast as DE with more survivability and options.

Honestly DE warrriors have horrid options. They can take only 1 special weapon, which doesnt synergize with the rest of their shooting at all. For every 10 you can either take an expensive lascannon that doesnt synergize with the rest of their shooting or a very good anti infantry weapon that just increases the number of shots you get. All the sergant options make the unit better in CC, but no matter how many points you spend there, DE warriors will never be good in CC. I am not sure DA are only worth 1 point more than DE warriors even with those great options.

Trueborn have good options, if they are a little confused. 4 special weapons and 2 heavy weapons right off the bat is great. They can also take shard carbines or pistols. All these options are crazy expensive though. Again their sergant only has CC options, which is why no one takes them, even with 2 attacks, Trueborn will never be good in assault but utility is at least valued here. But then trueborn are an elite, not a troop choice.

Mahtamori wrote:
The only real problem is an open-topped transport with infinite amount of fire ports for Fire Dragons. Another option is to have the small transport being a closed transport with assault ramp rule and beefed up defenses. Aimed at costing 50-60% of a Serpent with 50% capacity. This takes care of the Fire Dragon problem (they're such a pain, conceptually)

Fire Dragons are a problem, in certain circumstances they become really really good.

Well, on the topic of comparing DA to DE Warriors, the question is how much Night Vision, Power From Pain and meagre options stack up to one point better save with no options. I think no one will challenge that Dire Avengers in their current incarnation are decent, even decent value, but +3 point decent?
I only compare like an insipid moron DE to current CWE since DE are the most up to date Eldar, even though I know it is wrong and that you need to take into account how it all synnergize within the codex.

Then again, Dire Avengers also have several Sargent upgrades that are all keyed to melee, as well, and so few ever takes them.

Well, Fire Dragons will become really really good as soon as they get inside a transport of any kind that's located within 18" of a vehicle that's in the 150+ price range. It's just that a Land Raider or a Rhino (Fire ports on a tank, really) would make them just plain stupidly good.
I don't think for one minute that the problem with Fire Dragons is that they may assault directly out of a transport, considering the low chance of any vehicle surviving even a minimum squad's shooting.

Regardless, bouncing back on Gwydion's analysis, we're left with a situation where Eldar have two qualified transports: Wave Serpent and Falcon.
The problem with the Falcon (honestly, the Wave Serpent doesn't have any conceptual problems) is that it clashes between two roles, main battle tank and transport. It doesn't do either very good since it's not a dedicated transport and since the Fire Prism and Warp Hunter are both significantly better at destroying on the same hull (meaning upgrades and durability are the same).
Add to all this that the Wave Serpent is more durable, cheaper, offer better fire power at speeds 7"+, and doesn't take up a HS slot...

Again, I bring up the idea of making the Falcon the fire-power dedicated transport. The major difference being:
Wave Serpent: 1 weapon operating at 150% capacity, Energy Field, 100% carry capacity
Falcon: 2 weapons operating at 100% capacity, able to use +1 heavy weapon at 6"-12" move, 50% carry capacity.

The big huge thing, though, is that Eldar need to provide more incentive to use larger than minimal troop sizes. This means more synergy between Sarge and Squad, better value for additional troops, potential options scaling with squad size (this one isn't something you see a lot with Eldar, admittedly)
At it's simplest, you might pay a 10-15 points premium to "create a new squad" versus if you had upgraded an existing squad with the same members.

Let's take an example out of the old hat:
Dire Avengers squad (80 points)
4 Dire Avengers 1 Exarch
Up to 5 additional Dire Avengers may be added for +10 points per model
(Initial cost is calculated at 12 per model, with +12 for exarch, and 8 points new squad premium)

Mahtamori wrote:Well, on the topic of comparing DA to DE Warriors, the question is how much Night Vision, Power From Pain and meagre options stack up to one point better save with no options. I think no one will challenge that Dire Avengers in their current incarnation are decent, even decent value, but +3 point decent?
I only compare like an insipid moron DE to current CWE since DE are the most up to date Eldar, even though I know it is wrong and that you need to take into account how it all synnergize within the codex.

Then again, Dire Avengers also have several Sargent upgrades that are all keyed to melee, as well, and so few ever takes them.

Well, Fire Dragons will become really really good as soon as they get inside a transport of any kind that's located within 18" of a vehicle that's in the 150+ price range. It's just that a Land Raider or a Rhino (Fire ports on a tank, really) would make them just plain stupidly good.
I don't think for one minute that the problem with Fire Dragons is that they may assault directly out of a transport, considering the low chance of any vehicle surviving even a minimum squad's shooting.

At least the DA sergant combat upgrades are actually useful.

PFP is great, getting FNP is awesome, but of course it is hard to kill a squad a range. It is far easier to kill them in melee, which DE warriors never are. FC helps them not one bit and fearless requires 3 pain tokens. I dont think I have ever seen a warrior squad with 3 pain tokens. Its very rare indeed that they even get 1.
DE warriors are good against MC, while they pay a bit sucking against guardsmen, tau, and Eldar. Clearly they are better than Guardians, but then you know my possition on them(wow are they horrid)
For me the 4+ save is just too much for 10 points. Perhaps 12 is to much, 11 sounds a little better.
At least the Exarch has defend and bladestorm. coupled with shimmer shield(which seems to be almost free) DA have nice tarpit ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:The big huge thing, though, is that Eldar need to provide more incentive to use larger than minimal troop sizes. This means more synergy between Sarge and Squad

Actually the DE dex has the same problem. There is virtually no reason to ever take larger units. Optimal warriors(5) trueborn(3-4) Incubi(4-5) wracks(5) scourges(5) reavers(3). Only wyches are fielded in slightly larger units of 8 or so. Again only wyches have any synergy with the squad(they kill things in CC while the squad keeps them alive) Otherwise its never worthwhile in the DE dex to take unit leaders


(it is useful to take sargents on grotesques and harlequins, if people actually took them)

As far as DE it depends what you are trying to accomplish
10 + spinter cannon works quite weill and then your Raider has to do it on your own.

As far as DA the problem is with the general survivability of the transport and the need for fire power.

A full 10-man DA with exarch with Defend, perhaps Bladestorm shimmershield and PW provides a close to all purpose unit. The issue is that you are going to go with a meched up army so take your choices 3 Wave serpents with 10 man squads for @ 900 or 4 or even 5 wave servpents with 5-man squad. You can rip your opponent a new one with 3 bladestorming DA but you are going to have to move and set it up while foregoing 2 TL scatterlaser shots as well as wincing when your opponent blows up a wave serpent. Due to cost a mechdar list is going to relatively light on firepower but excell at 24" to 36" S6 fire. As soon as you go full sized DA you become a nasty at 18" army. Big change.

At 9 pts a kalabite warrior is very nasty however his armor is worthless so the question is how much is the DA 4+ worth? 3 is maybe too much but 1 is a little too costly. Besides the DA needs to be viewed in light of what we do with guardians. If you lower DA to 10 then guardians are justifiably 6 and then we run the risk of hoard eldar armies.

Rending scatter lasers or shuriken weapons is a bit over-kill IMO.

I dom't know why everyone is saying FDs are a problem? We don't want to nerf FDs! They're awesome!

Tek wrote:I dom't know why everyone is saying FDs are a problem? We don't want to nerf FDs! They're awesome!

They are awesome, and we don't really want to nerf them. The issue is that AP1 melta is amazing against so many things that it becomes very difficult to make the other elite options into a viable choice. Something that I suggested ages ago was to change their weapons to S8 AP5 (or something similar) and then give them a special rule that gives them +1/+2 on the vehicle damage chart. They then become less viable against MC's or TEQ but better at what they should be good at, which is melting landraiders down into soup.
Maybe include "after all modifiers are applied, any vehice damage chart result that is greater than 6 is resolved as follows: Vehicle Destroyed - Obliterated: This is resolved in the same way as "Vehicle Destroyed: Explodes" but the explosion is resolved at strength 5. Any models being transported by a vehicle that suffers the "Vehicle Destroyed - Obliterated" automatically takes a S6 rending hit, as the now molten vehicle explodes all around them.

@Finding a way to make maxed units viable - The only example (off the top of my head) where maxing out a squad has real benefit is the ork mob rule. I'm not sure that something like that would really translate very well when looking at Eldar though. Maybe it could be tied into the suggestion I made for an "Aspect Warrior" rule (able to regroup as long as the unit is at 25% or more of its starting strength.)? I'm not sure how though.

Guardians can be altered in a few ways. Primarily simply restricting their squad size to 5-10 rather than current 10-20 goes a long way. Second of all, one could make them a "for every third" with several upgrade options, and adding on to that the upgrades themselves could be significantly cheaper (5 points Shuriken Cannons, free flamers, 20 point missile launchers) while the Guardians themselves are kept artificially high. I.e. "You're meant to upgrade, you already payed half of the price for it already, so pick an upgrade".

Shimmer Shield has the disadvantage that it removes a great part of the Exarch's own power. He, himself, can not shoot if he chooses this option and additionally pays quite a bit for it. Add to this that Dire Avengers do not perform well in melee, and the Shimmer Shield + Defend is a tar pit that hopes to perform very litte. It is situationally good, but pays for it as if it was universally good, which is why so few choose this venue of approach. In it's essence, Shimmer Shield and Defend need to be altered or reduced in price, or the Dire Avengers themselves need to be more similar to Trueborn than Warriors.

CountDeath wrote:Rending scatter lasers or shuriken weapons is a bit over-kill IMO.

I don't think rending Scatter Lasers have been suggested, but I do believe we are in agreement on rending in general. (Besides, wanting rending on everything is soooo last year .)

Mahtamori wrote:Guardians can be altered in a few ways. Primarily simply restricting their squad size to 5-10 rather than current 10-20 goes a long way. Second of all, one could make them a "for every third" with several upgrade options, and adding on to that the upgrades themselves could be significantly cheaper (5 points Shuriken Cannons, free flamers, 20 point missile launchers) while the Guardians themselves are kept artificially high. I.e. "You're meant to upgrade, you already payed half of the price for it already, so pick an upgrade".

better, and cheaper upgrades are definitly in order. I still think 1/3 is too many though. Maybe 1/5 but have them be basically free.

Mahtamori wrote:
Shimmer Shield has the disadvantage that it removes a great part of the Exarch's own power. He, himself, can not shoot if he chooses this option and additionally pays quite a bit for it. Add to this that Dire Avengers do not perform well in melee, and the Shimmer Shield + Defend is a tar pit that hopes to perform very litte. It is situationally good, but pays for it as if it was universally good, which is why so few choose this venue of approach. In it's essence, Shimmer Shield and Defend need to be altered or reduced in price, or the Dire Avengers themselves need to be more similar to Trueborn than Warriors.

I understand its not perfect, still at least there are options. Its not like he is replacing an assault cannon for this ability. At least DA can shoot and assault in the same round, I think its a useful ability although maybe not universially so.

Trueborn are DE warriors with +1 Ld and +1 attack. You could also see them as DA with a worse gun, worse save, PFP and +1 attack. The only thing that makes them good and people take them is that they can have 4 special weapons. Im not sure what you mean by be more like Trueborn. +1 attack or special weapon choices?

Guardians: the reason I take 1 of 3 is that it makes nice symmetry (9 Guardians + 1 Warlock being max size), and Guardians at 8 points makes about 2 point over-price so that would make flamer and fusion gun free, although a 1 of 5 (meaning max squad is 10+1) would make a heavy weapon cost 0 to 15 points (BS3 Bright Lance is not worth 30 points, as is now!). Could possibly make flame-spam in serpent (see the idea of combining both Guardians to a single choice) less worth it, but the fusion gun option becomes redundant (although, more in line with what other armies tend to pay for fusion guns, sort of...)

Trueborn: +1A. CWE aren't, conceptually, big on options, and even less so on aspect warriors. CWE tend to be bigger on squad differences.
Considering the similarity in cost at the moment, the difference is small. Dire Avengers would be nice to have a better distinction to Guardians, and with one extra base attack, they become an assault nuke (ironically something DE can't do).
Granted, 12 points with that profile is too low, but Defend and Bladestorm would suddenly match and make sense together when you're expected to, if able, unleash the storm and then assault.

By the by, Shimmer Shield would be a nice addition to Shining Spears, simply to get them working better and able to absorb attacks.
Similarly, Defend would be a nice complement for Shining Spears, while further enhancing the counter-melee role of Scorpions.
Defend makes slightly less sense on Dire Avengers from a game-play perspective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Smitty0305 wrote:Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

I find this thread to be meager at best. I personally think that the OP has a complete lack of creativity. No Units have been changed, no new ideas are set in place, no new strategies are possible, nothing out of the box has been posted or amended to the original topic.

The topic basically should be titled "Make current Eldar cheaper and mathmatically a little better"

bad topic is bad.

Sometimes stuff gets burried if posted in middle of a debate, if it doesn't contribute to the debate at hand.

The thing with Craftworld Eldar and this thread is that we're attempting to keep them close to fluff as well, and at the same time trying to keep things reasonable. I know, it's a bane of ideas sometimes. CWE follow a rigid system of dedication, meaning that naturally units will not be changed too much. The new options open up when you get units working. For instance, there's currently two effective builds with CWE (one slightly less so than the other), neither of which incorporate melee units. Targeting these melee units in order to make them attractive will drastically open up new strategies.
So, currently, CWE have mech/tank force. Getting artillery to work opens up a completely new strategy of deploying gun lines (something Eldar is historically only decent at in epic scale, however). Getting melee to work opens up melee assaults. Getting Wraiths more in line and hammering out their too-easy to exploit dead zones, makes tarpitting possible. Opening up Guardians to actually be worth a damned gives you the option of torrenting. Giving the sneaky units the chance of actually doing something gives you the option of being disruptive. And so on.

Unfortunately, currently CWE is a lot about last-turn contesting. The lists tend to rely on jet-councils and fire prisms for killing, and tend to have few troop choice units. Fire Dragons in serpents remain near mandatory to even have a hope of dealing with large tanks or costly MCs.

I think what you're missing is the debates on the truly neglected models at the moment - Shining Spears, but above all Hawks, Spiders and Vypers have all had suggestions for army-altering changes, the same goes for Phoenix Lords. These are all wild-cards. An effective anti-tank Hawk could loosen up the Elite section to allow for Scorpions, which in turn makes a melee-oriented army possible, for example.

It seems like a long time since I've churned out one of these. As far as the fandex goes, I've written up all the Troops and HQ's (minus the avatar and biel tan SC) so I'll pull up all our old elite choices so we can give them another looking over.

Howling Banshees - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Howling Banshees + Exarch
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors, Furious Charge.

Options - Up to 5 additional Howling banshees may be purchased for xx points each

Exarch powers
Warshout - As now, with following exception: Initiative test instead of Ld, If the test is failed then the enemy unit will attack at WS 1 for the rest of the turn: xx points
Assault drill - A unit with the Assaut Drill exarch power may disembark, shoot (or run) and assault as long as long as the vehicle they were embarked in has moved no more than 12" that turn: xx points

Exarch Wargear
Executioner- Two handed power weapon that allows the wielder to attack with +2 strength.
Mirrorswords - Replaces Shuriken catapult and power weapon. Two single handed power weapons, they allow you to re-roll fails to hit.

Striking Scorpions - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Striking Scorpions + Exarch
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors, Infiltrate, Outflank
Options - Up to 10 additional Striking Scorpions may be purchased for xx points each

Exarch powers
Shadow Strike - All coversaves improved by 2 (4+ becomes 2+ ect)
Stalkers - A unit with this ability rolls 3D6 for their movement and uses the highest result when moving through difficult terrain

Exarch Wargear
As now?

Fire Dragons - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Fire Dragons + Exarch
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules - Aspect Warriors
Options - Up to 5 additional Fire Dragons may be purchased for xx points each

Exarch powers
*Name?* -Always hit walkers on a 4+ when using metabombs in combat.
+ another power?

Exarch Wargear
As now?

I'd probably increase their points (maybe +3 or 4 ppm?) if left like this, what I'd prefer would be to use the weapon profile from my previous post though. that way they'd nuke tanks without overlapping and being awesome vs everything else as well.

Wraithguard - xxx points

Unit Size - 4 Wraithguard + Spiritseer
Stats - as now
Wargear - as now
Special Rules -
Wraithguard- Wraith, Extreme strength
Spiritseer - see Warlock entry

Options -
Up to 5 additional Wraithguard may be purchased for xx points each.
The Spiritseer may take any of the options specified in the Warlock entry except the Eldar Jetbike.

Wraith - Wraiths are not living beings but wraithbone constructs animated by the souls of long deceased warriors. As a result they are not affected by poisoned weapons and have the fearless special rule.
Extreme strength- The wraithguard are far taller than even the tallest of the living eldar, because of their giant stature they are able to strike with such force that the enemys armour often proves to be no defence. Any model that suffers a wound from a wraithguard must re-roll any successful armour saves.

All of this is from memory, and probably isn't what we sort of agree before any more suggestions? or just things that I've completely forgotten

there's 30 pages to this, so i don't know what has and hasn't been said, but they should release new 40mm base plastic wraithguard models and either lower their price or make them 2 wounds each. increasing the range on their weapons isn't a bad idea either.

Much of this seems perfectly reasonable, but I don't understand why on earth the Striking Scorpions would need the ability to assault from a vehicle if they automatically have infiltrate.
I mean: Wouldn't everyone just agree that they were best off placed as infiltrators and then slay off the enemy before the rest of your cavalry arrives. The only time where I see this ability necessary at all would be if your Striking Scorpions are left in the middle of nowhere and you just happen to have a Falcon or Wave Serpent that can come and pick them up. This seems so very situational that I don't think anyone would take the ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArmyC wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Ive posted on this thread 10 times and youve compleatly ignored my ideas.

Eldrad – increase cost to 240 points, and has the Ghost Helm Upgrade.

All your rule suggestions seem alright, but why increase Eldrad's points cost by 30 if you only give him a 15 pts. upgrade?
What appeals to me about Eldrad over many other special characters in the game (close to all of them) is that he is surprisingly points efficient. He's cheaper than a Farseer upgraded to have what he has of regular Farseer equipment, AND he comes with an extra psychic power, three psychic powers/a turn (one repeatable), a better weapon and the ability to rearrange your units. Still he does cost well over 200 pts. which means he is still more expensive than any "standard" Farseer.
I just don't see what makes him 15 pts. more expensive than the upgrade you gave him.

Other than all aspect warriors being increased to A2. Sure it is a non-issue for the shooting aspects but the +1 attack is vital to making all the CC aspects playable or at least have an argument for playing them.

I would agree that SS should not have the assault capability. Perhaps +1 cover saves as well as +1D6 for movement through cover.

As far as wraithguard it is tough. 12" range means they are a one shot and done unit. T6 sounds good but for 35 pts I would like something better than that afterall we are talking terminator range for cost. FNP, 2 wounds, lower the T to 5 and increase to 3 wounds. All of these sound like options that should be considered otherwise they are way too inefficient compared to fire dragons and too soft in CC.

Updated my suggestion for the scorps

Wraithguard are a bit more interesting, I'll go back through the threads in a bit and see if I can find all the previous suggestions. IIRC we had issues with giving them FNP because they became almost unkillable without firing a load of dedicated anti-tank weapons at them for several turns. T6, 3+ 4+FNP takes a LOT to hurt.

Maybe just increase Howling Banshee's and Striking Scorpion's (and Shining Spears?) to base 2 attacks? I don't like the sound of giving that to Dark Reapers or DA's

I completely agree with raising the base attacks for Howling Banshees and SS, but why not do that for Harlequins too then?
After all, they are the MOST glass-cannon like of the three melee units, they lack the power weapon attacks of the Howling Banshees (although they do have access to Rending) and they only have S4 on the first round of combat (although, granted, they DO have Hit and Run to eliminate this issue).
But taken into account, Harlequins are also the most expensive melee unit, a whole 2 points more expensive than the others and they take 4 more points to make rending. Along with this, unit upgrades are even more expensive to the Harlequins and the most essential one for their survival, Shadowseer, costs a grand 30 pts. In exchange for this, they get WS 6, BS 5 and I 6, but they don't have more attacks than the Striking Scorpions who do after all have Marine saves - although the Troupe Master does have 5 attacks when assaulting, but the SS have an equivalent of this and he can re-roll misses and fails to wound.
If you intend to give Howling Banshees as many attacks as Harlequins, our monster clowns should at least be less expensive.

On the issue of the Wraithguard, it's quite an issue with their weapons. I very much agree that their survivability needs to be increased, but their weapons also seem very... inefficient for a unit you can't really transport. 12" range means they have to be in assault range of the targetted unit and probably being close to one unit means that there are others nearby too, making it very risky to actually hit anything with your Wraithguards that cost 35 pts. each. But at the same time: The weapon DOES hurt a lot (I mean 2+ to wound and ID on a 6, ignoring armour saves is in no way half bad). So increasing their range would perhaps make them far very deadly.

on wraithguard, increasing/decreasing toughness and giving them FNP does nothing for them. They currently only die (really) to close combat attacks which ignore armor. Giving them FNP doesn't do anything for this, it is just a different form of the same thing.

The question, regarding wraithguard toughness, should be what the goal is. Is the idea of changes to their defensive aspects to remove their dependence on a farseer fortune-unit upgrade? If so, then add FNP. Very nearly as good as fortune, they just get a 4+ reroll instead of a 3+.

If the idea is to make them tougher against the type of attacks which murdered them in droves previously, give them 2 wounds.

What I think should happen, regarding toughness - do not decrease cost. Give them 2w, and FNP. Then, make them Elites, 3-10, and remove the current "as troops" clause. In order to take them as troops, you need to select the Iyanden SC (probably Iyanna), who costs 300+ points, and the unit must number 10 wraithguard at the start of the game. She is a spiritseer - NOT a farseer. Thus, to give this now very-tough unit fortune, you need to spend upwards of 400 points in the HQ section of a list which spends 350 minimum on their special troops. You can do it, but it probably isn't worth it. Combine this with a change to conceal which grants 5+ cover and special stealth which doesn't work on the 5+ cover, and you have a unit which basically walks around with a 3+ cover save, 3+ armor save, and FNP. Quite tough, but difficult to fortune, in practice.

Offensively - far and away the best suggestion I have seen for the wraithcannon is R18" Rapidfire, combined with Relentless for the wraithguard. 1 shot out to 24", 2 shots within 18", when combined with moving. A whole lot of death at close range.

@ Wooly
Maybe give kisses to harlequins as standard? It would make them a good middle ground between scorps and banshees. And make them much more appealing for their point cost?

Giving Wraithguard T6, 3+ save and FNP would mean a Tactical Marine (half range) would have a 0.037 chance of killing one, In other words, it would take 29 marines (that are in half range) to reliably kill 1 (!!) Wraithguard. Obviously thats not using the right tool for the job, but still, it does make then stupidly survivable.

@Gwyidion
Apart from Wraithguard needing to be units of 10 for Iyanna to make the troops, I think your ideas make a lot of sense. You don't want to make Iyanden armies suck because they can only take 3-4 units in a normal game, I'd say units of 5 + spiritseer should become troops.

I don't know if Wraithguard are a good unit to have with a max size of 10. They seem a bit too large, bulky, and costly for that max size. 5+seer is a better sum, like Gorechild suggests.
Gorechild, by the way, regarding FNP: that's the value of 10 Wraithguards to kill 1 Wraithguard per turn, using the weapons least suitable for the job. By comparing a Marine killing another Marine at half range you need the value of about 5 Marines (10 shots at 11% chance) using a weapon that's partially suitable for the job, while a Guardian killing his own kin using a weapon meant for the job you need 3 Guardians for every 2 you want to kill reliably.
10 to 1 isn't all that bad when you put it in perspective of what tool you use. An auto-cannon is (as is always the case with imperials shooting at Eldar) a much better choice at not too great relative cost.
P.S. you need around 72 IG shots, which is 360 points at long range, almost twice as cost-effective as Marines. Irony!

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I was in the progress of writing something with inspiration from Commisar Rant's post in General Discussion... Let's see if the sum of my ideas are still with me.

Over all army range: Another approach is to simply keep the Eldar army being difficult to use by increasing their strength rather than range of their basic weapons. This way Guardians would have the same, consistent, fire power of a bladestorming Dire Avenger, but with the drawback of being in guaranteed counter-assault range should the target live.
The same can be said to be true for all Eldar (infantry) weapons, decrease range and increase fire power. Swooping Hawks have a Haywire Blaster with the same profile as the current Lasblaster -12" range +haywire?
(A note on Dire Avengers: they would perform the role of more competent Guardians that have both 'pult and pistol+sword. Guardians would be lead by Black Guardians, i.e. standard sarge)

Warlocks and Farseers: Essentially, heavily alter these ones. Remove Warlocks as Guardian leaders, and make them a 3-for-1 Elite choice.
Warlocks takes care of the whole Dooming/Guiding/Fortuning while Farseers develop some powers on their own. Stronger and more reliable Mind War, a counter-psycher power, and maybe a summoning-type power.
After all, most of the current Warlock powers aren't integral for the army and attach to units that aren't all that great.

Naturally unit costs are not holy and would need to be revamped.

The whole decreasing range thing breaks down when you get to 12".

12" is the standard assault range, and the mantra goes, shoot the choppy things, assault the shooty things. A shooty unit such as DAs, Guardians, Hawks, etc, is quite useless if they must enter into assault range to fire (unless they are SO shooty that the assault unit they target is completely eviscerated by the shooting).

Overall army design scheme is great, but when applied on a unit to unit bases, Guardians with 12" range weapons is still poor unit design. It just doesn't make sense from any angle.

Wraithguard:

Right now, the best way to run wraithguard is with fortune support. Basically, you buy them the 100 point Farseer+warding+fortune upgrade, and they now have a 3+ rerollable armor save.

My proposed change (FNP and 2 wounds) does two things: it removes their dependence on a farseer, which is good, and it lessens their giant achilles heel against things like genestealers and TH/SS terminators. this change only makes sense if you simultaneously make it very difficult to get fortune on a wraithguard unit. This change, combined with rules which make it a poor idea to buy a farseer with the wraithguard actually make the wraithguard's cumulative save go down (3+ rerollable to a 3+/4+FNP), while making them tougher. Also adding smaller units means their total wounds doesn't increase twofold.

So how about this:

Wraithguard - 165 points

Unit Size - 4 Wraithguard + Spiritseer

Stats - WS/BS:4 S/T:6 1A, 3I, 2W, Ld10 sv3+

Wargear -
Wraithcannon: SX AP2 R18" Rapidfire
Wounding rules as now

Special Rules -
Wraithguard- Wraith, Extreme strength
Spiritseer - see Warlock entry

Options -
Up to 4 additional Wraithguard may be purchased for 35 points each.
The Spiritseer may take any of the options specified in the Warlock entry except the Eldar Jetbike.

Wraith - Wraiths are not living beings but wraithbone constructs animated by the souls of long deceased warriors. As a result they are not affected by poisoned weapons and have the Fearless, Relentless, and Feel No Pain Universal Special Rules.
Extreme strength- The wraithguard are far taller than even the tallest of the living eldar, because of their giant stature they are able to strike with such force that the enemys armour often proves to be no defence. Any model that suffers a wound in close combat from a wraithguard must re-roll any successful armour saves.

Iyanna Arienal - 375 points
Iyanna:
WS/BS:5 S/T:3 2A I5 W3 Ld10 sv -

Wargear:
Spear of Vaul - a singing spear which ignores armor saves
Armor of Vaul - Instead of saving wounds in the normal way, Iyanna must take a leadership test every time she suffers a wound. If the leadership test is passed, the wound is saved. This save counts as invulnerable save. The Leadership test may not be modified in any way, but may be rerolled if it is forced or enabled to do so.
Runes of Warding

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Fleet of Foot
Psyker
Spiritseer of Iyanden : An army which includes Iyanna may take Wraithguard units as troop selections. In addition, while Iyanna is alive, no Wraith unit needs to test for wraithsight.

Psyker Powers:
Iyanna has all of the warlock psyker powers, and employs them all simultaneously. Note that she may still only make one shooting attack in the shooting phase.

Iyanna's Wraithlord Husband (I need to re-read the Iyanden fluff)
Normal Wraithlord, doesn't take a FoC slot, basically a "free" HS choice. Maybe +1 WS/BS.

Basically, in the above schema, the player needs to invest 375 points to get Wraithguard as troops to start with. If the player wants to take a farseer on top of that (in what will be a point-strapped list), they are free to do so.

There is no possible way that is worth 375 points... unless it also included a Wraithguard bodyguard in its cost. In order for it be effective as you posted, a significant portion of your army has to be used in very few units of Wraithguard/Wraithlords, leading to an even lower model count than in today's Wraith armies. It just isn't viable.

As for Warlocks, I'd like to see them become more combat focused. In their Codex entry it talks about them returning to their Aspect shrine to prepare for war, so maybe they should be able to take different powers based on which Aspect they came from, that way, using Mahtamori's idea about making them a 3-for-1 Elite choice, you can specifically tailor them to the role you need them to fulfill.

Well, you get Iyanna, who has all the warlock powers, +1 BS/WS over warlocks, +1A, +1I, +2W, and an invulnerable save that is obscenely good (looking at it now, she needs to be Ld9, or 8, especially since her embolden allows her to reroll her own leadership test). She also has the singing-spear-power-weapon, available today only on yriel and eldrad. Also comes with runes of warding.

So:
Warlock: 25 pts
powers: 45
+1BS/WS: 20
+1A, +1I: 20
+2W :30
Vaul :30
Spear :20
Runes :15 (at least)

190ish points of wargear and abilities. Lets not forget her spiritseer power and the FoC changes. Those are at least 30 each.

so 250 or so.

Then, you get a FOC-free wraithlord who should probably have special weapons and boosted abilities, like +1 BS/WS/W, and able to carry a D-cannon if wraithlords can't already (forgeworld wraithseer anyone?). Even if he is a totally normal wraithlord, that is still an FoC free wraithlord for 125 points, which isn't too much over what they probably will cost in the next codex.

It isn't that outrageously costed, just read the post. Even if you give her special abilities for free, the wraithlord she comes with should have special gear and stats, and makes up for the cost.

And we can point out a whole army here, since they are pretty easy units to construct:

Iyanden 2000pts

Iyanna/Wraithlord husband - 375
Avatar of Khain - 155

Troops:
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
7x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 270
6x Wraithguard + spiritseer - 235


Heavy Support:
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)
1x Wraithlord EML/EML - 140 (today's prices with no TL)

Not even a well-balanced or thought out competitive list, but I'd take it against anyone, as a Iyanden player. Each wraithguard squad has more firepower and wounds than today's squad at far lower prices.

Oh, I didn't realize she came with a free Wraithlord, my bad.

If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

What Gwyidion just wrote gets my vote. The only thing I'd like to change is the spear (which is by the way called the spear of teuthlas), I dunno if that should be as powerful as the spear of twilight. In the last codex it could instead be thrown 18", how does that sound?