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Iyanna sounds like a very interesting application, but I'm with Gorechild in that the Wraithlord should be a choice (i.e. a retinue).
This is first of all to allow her to actually enter lower level games (although at 250 pts. she is still more expensive than Eldrad).
Still I would like her to be a little cheaper to be an HQ that is actually cheaper than she should technically be, just like Eldrad.
But I do believe that giving her a Power Weapon fits about right. If you intend to let her walk alongside a Wraithlord, it makes absolutely no sense to make attacks non-power weapon, especially not in an Eldar army, which is all about specialisation. You want your squads to have ONE purpose, i.e. Tank busting for the Fire Dragons, CC'ing armoured enemies for the Howling Banshees, long ranged combat for the Dark Reapers, etc. etc.

@Gorechild I do believe that making Harlequin's Kisses standard equipment would help a lot but I don't think Harlequins will ever be the middle ground between SS and HB, nor should they be. In terms damage output, they would indeed be a middle ground, but having as many attacks as the Striking Scorpions and being even more vulnerable than Banshees makes them their own entirely, which is, after all, the charm of the Eldar.

Gorechild wrote:If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

Because of the unit rules, making the Wraithlord and Iyanna form a single unit essentially upgrades Iyanna to T8, and gives her cover from ID until the wraithlord dies. It also allows the wraithlord to very easily obtain cover, as if Iyanna is in cover, 50% of the unit is in cover. She's already tough enough with a pseudo-Invulnerable save that depends on her re-rollable leadership. Making the wraithlord an option is fine, but making the wraithlord a retinue isn't a good idea.

I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

I'm fine with making it a required upgrade (or really, just part of the HQ choice). Wraithwall lists are all about expensive choices. I am heavily opposed to making the wraithlord a retinue, for the stated reasons.

Mahtamori wrote:I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

Well, some special characters can choose a retinue, Eldrad for example, can take a retinue just like any other farseer - or choose not to.
I do believe that the model itself should have no upgrades available, but I don't think you should have to include their retinue, I think that should be a choice.

Technically Eldrad doesn't have a retinue since the Warlocks are an independent unit (and therefore do not offer the protection of a retinue, as well as offer up a kill point). Technically he's not a Farseer, either, but most people aren't quite so literal about the rules.

Mahtamori wrote:Technically Eldrad doesn't have a retinue since the Warlocks are an independent unit (and therefore do not offer the protection of a retinue, as well as offer up a kill point). Technically he's not a Farseer, either, but most people aren't quite so literal about the rules.

In Eldrad's rules it says 'Eldrad counts as a farseer for the purposes of including a warlock unit' iirc.

How on earth would you argue that Eldrad's technically not a farseer?
He's obviously a psyker lost on the path of the seer, i.e. Farseer.

Can't remember his name, you know someone who camped you make da call a lot and got banned a few times, essentially argued that unless a model was called "Farseer" then he couldn't use abilities which were "Farseer" abilities (like Mind War). Same goes for other armies and their special characters, etc.

It is immaterial to this discussion any way. Making Iyanna able to form a unit with a wraithlord is a bad idea. It gives easy cover to the wraithlord, and gives effective T8 to Iyanna.

I don't think it should be optional. People who play wraithwall are probably taking 3 wraithlords in HS anyway, and they can just take one less if they are squeezed for points.

Would anyone be opposed to giving her a Wraithguard retinue?

Wooly wrote:@Gorechild I do believe that making Harlequin's Kisses standard equipment would help a lot but I don't think Harlequins will ever be the middle ground between SS and HB, nor should they be. In terms damage output, they would indeed be a middle ground, but having as many attacks as the Striking Scorpions and being even more vulnerable than Banshees makes them their own entirely, which is, after all, the charm of the Eldar.

The bit in bold is what I meant The complete lack of any exarch-style powers and the fact the unit is so customizable (Shadowseer, Death jester ect) keeps them individual enough, but rending just serves as a middle ground between power weapons and having loads of normal attacks.

Mahtamori wrote:I don't think anything should be optional on a special character. I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere to prove me wrong, but I can't think of a single case where a special, unique, character has major options.

Asdrubael Vect has a 200 point option (dias of destruction)on top of being 240 points just for himself. As well as that, the dias MUST be filled with 9 other models as well. This effectively means he (for 1 unit) can cost between 240 and 638 points (if taken with 9 Incubi).

Gwyidion wrote:

Gorechild wrote:If the Wraithlord was a retinue that would be awesome. Maybe make it an optional upgrade (a la dias of destruction)?

Because of the unit rules, making the Wraithlord and Iyanna form a single unit essentially upgrades Iyanna to T8, and gives her cover from ID until the wraithlord dies. It also allows the wraithlord to very easily obtain cover, as if Iyanna is in cover, 50% of the unit is in cover. She's already tough enough with a pseudo-Invulnerable save that depends on her re-rollable leadership. Making the wraithlord an option is fine, but making the wraithlord a retinue isn't a good idea.

Fair enough, I didn't really plan out how it might play, it just struck me as a cool idea. Maybe if you included an additional line that was something like; "If Iyanna is accompanied by *insert name of Wraithlord here*, all cover saves and movement are determined as if both models have the "Monstrous Creature" unit type for as long as the Wraithlord is on the board."? That way she'd have to be 50% obscured as well, and tbh, for a ~200 point upgrade I don't think its that OP, Especially for a HQ that I can't see as being that regularly taken outside of fluffy games. Leaving her as an IC would just leave her to run with a unit of 10 T6 wriathguard with the option to hop between units if the previous 1 is getting hammered, and then have a random 4th wraithlord on the board.

MandalorynOranj wrote:Would anyone be opposed to giving her a Wraithguard retinue?

I don't think it would be that bad, it just wouldn't make as much sense (fluff wise) as her being accompanied by the wraithlord that (apparently) she always hangs with. See end of last paragraph

Do they have to be in the same unit configuration? "Being accompanied" doesn't necessarily mean "being dogged by".

My thoughts about new rules. I'm sure some of this has already been covered in the 25 or so pages that I haven't read through yet, but I wanted to ad my two cents.

To me the phoenix lords have been a great fluff to the Eldar, I would hate to see them go away or become just another exarch upgrade. I feel like they are something you should be able to design your force around. They are way too expensive these days though. I mean the Avatar is 50 points less then most of them.

I would say you could easily chop 50 points off of each of them, and an added ability would be that any squad of their aspect they are with becomes scoring. So you purchase your phoenix lord and as long as he is part of a squad, they can hold objectives. If the PL leaves the squad they are no longer scoring, if he joins another squad, they become scoring. I think this could then lend to people building armies around various aspects. They could also bestow one of their abilities to the squad they are teamed with. Maugan Ra could give fast shot or crack shot. Fuegan gives tank hunter...etc.

The aspect warriors:

Fire Dragons: A little powerful for the cost, but they seem to be pretty good as is. They are specialized to take on tanks, and hard armor. They fill that role for the eldar very well.

Howling Banshees: From my perspective Banshees are supposed to be anti MEQ, and giving them the ability to assault out of a wave serpent I think would help them fulfill that role. If they don't get that first attack off they will likely be taken out before they can perform their role.

Striking Scorpions: Scorpions to me shouldn't be mounted in a wave serpent, they should be assaulting from a hidden position. They are geared towards taking on the IEQ squads, and I think can fill that role well.

Dark Reapers: A bit expensive for what you are getting, I like the role they fill as being Marine killers from range, I don't think they need to be adjusted that much, or given an anti tank role, they have their specialization and that's good enough. The are too expensive for what they do though, I would like to see them dropped to 25-30 points.

Swooping Hawks: They are just so incredibly average right now. I've always imagined they would be the close combat jump infantry for the Eldar, they could keep their average lasblasters for a take and hold with Baharroth, but then have some kind of power weapon knives. Thinking hawk talons. They drop from the sky, engage a squad of devastators behind enemy lines then jump away before the opposing army can react. That's what I imagine. I've seen a lot of people aiming them towards the AT role, however that seems to be the niche the Shadow Specters from FW are supposed to fill.

Warp Spiders: A PL for the warp spiders please! I love the threads I have seen with a warp spider PL and I would love it! Giving some kind of role 3d6 and pick the two you want for your warp jump. I like the assault 4 weapons, seems to fit the way they work. They aren't supposed to be CC just jump in and lay waste to a lightly armored squad then jump away before they can be tied up. I wouldn't mind an AP of 6 to show some armor penetration.

Shining Spears: I think the Spears do pretty well, they fill the role as they are supposed to and they aren't all that expensive in my mind. They deserve an sweet PL as well. I would imagine one springing up from the Samm Hainn craftworld if anything.

Dire Avengers: Great troops, I'm a little disappointed in the neutering of the range on the shuriken catapults both for the DAs and Guardians. I'd like to see the guardian version have an 18" range and the DA's have a 24" range.

Sorry for the great long post, and if I'm addressing things that have already been taken care of, I've only gotten through the first ten and the last three pages of this massive thread so far.

Well, I think one of the greatest focal points of this post has been to keep the new Eldar fluffy.
Warp Spiders and Shining Spears currently don't have Phoenix Lords because they are rare, newer Warrior Aspects. The Phoenix Lords are the original Exarchs of each of the first aspects, i.e. Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers.
That being said, I wouldn't mind some kind of Warp Spider HQ showing up.
And the idea that Striking Scorpions should be able to assault from vehicles was scratched in the last page. ^^
But over-all your ideas seem decent, although many people have already come to the conclusion that 24" for an Avenger Catapult is a little OP compared to the bolter - although, lorewise, of course, Eldar weaponry should be OP compared to human tech... silly Mon'Keighs

My fluff is a bit fuzzy, but Karandras isn't the original Exarch, the original Exarch is with the Dark Elves, no?

However, let's face it, regardless of what boost or nerf the units get, it is their costs and relative implementation that count. Having Dire Avengers run around with Storm Bolters isn't as much an issue as whether it fits with the rest of the codex - is it true to the identity of the Eldar, and the troop concerned.
Personally, Dire Avengers are a bit too much up-close-and-personal for Storm Bolters in my opinion, and would be happier if their weapons and abilities better represented a duality between the two roles.

As for Swooping Hawks, it's a recurring theme in this thread. Suffice to say their current implementation is wrong, and that's just about all we've come to a conclusion regarding so far. I'm personally partial to a melee-esque or duality Hawks more focused on destroying light infantry / Orks than Marines / Necrons or tanks.

I'd personally love to see an aspect - or outcast for that matter - who are focused on short range infiltration skirmish. Think Rangers with Avenger Catapults.

I would really like some feedback concerning Wayseer's and the Webway. In the book "the path of the warrior", it depicts eldar aspect warriors using the webway to enter the battlefield.

Wayseer. Upgrade a farseer to a wayseer for +30 points.

Wayseers have the "webway" psychic power, and allow aspect warriors to use the webway to enter the battlefield. During the Eldar players first turn, the eldar player signifies a 6' Radius area to be the webway entrance to the battlefield. The webway follows the same rules as infiltrating, and must be 18' away from units with line of sight, and 12' away of enemy units without line of sight. During the Eldar first turn, all aspect warriors declared using the webway portal must enter battlefield, and must be deployed within 2' of the Webway Portal. If the eldar army has an autarch , eldar models may move, shoot, and assult as normal. If the eldar army does not have an autarch, the eldar units may not move or assult the turn they webway'd in.


Im not sure exactly how a webway and wayseer should be used. Mabe an entire eldar army should be allowed to deep strike in turn one. Mabe only 1 unit should be allowed. Mabe it should allow for all eldar aspect warriors to have a teleport like option. Discuss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:My fluff is a bit fuzzy, but Karandras isn't the original Exarch, the original Exarch is with the Dark Elves, no?

However, let's face it, regardless of what boost or nerf the units get, it is their costs and relative implementation that count. Having Dire Avengers run around with Storm Bolters isn't as much an issue as whether it fits with the rest of the codex - is it true to the identity of the Eldar, and the troop concerned.
Personally, Dire Avengers are a bit too much up-close-and-personal for Storm Bolters in my opinion, and would be happier if their weapons and abilities better represented a duality between the two roles.

As for Swooping Hawks, it's a recurring theme in this thread. Suffice to say their current implementation is wrong, and that's just about all we've come to a conclusion regarding so far. I'm personally partial to a melee-esque or duality Hawks more focused on destroying light infantry / Orks than Marines / Necrons or tanks.

I'd personally love to see an aspect - or outcast for that matter - who are focused on short range infiltration skirmish. Think Rangers with Avenger Catapults.

swooping hawks in the fluff dont really land, there constantly up in the air shooting there grenades at stuff. I dont think they are an assult unit at all.

The webway is a little difficult to implement.

As you have it there, it is overpowered. Since all aspect warriors using the webway come in without rolling, you can place the webway 18" from the enemy, deploy say, a maxed out banshee squad 2" from the webway - on a direct line towards the enemy. The 6" radius means that they are deployed 10" from the enemy. With an autarch, that is a guaranteed 1st turn charge. Even if you don't look at that, fire dragons can be deployed at the same range, and, with an autarch, move and be within 4" of any enemy target - which will soon be very dead.

It is the perfect alpha strike.

Eldar units are too fragile and too powerful to use with the webway in that manner. Either the webway allows them to launch a strike upon arrival to the board - which is overpowered, because eldar units hit like a truck. Or, the webway doesn't allow first-strike capability, in which case the eldar aspect warrior unit has to stand around for a turn - which they are too fragile to do.

I'm on the side of shooty-hawks. They don't strike me as a close combat unit, unless they are totally redesigned and their fluff changed to put more emphasis on the "Hawk" part of their name, rather than the "Swooping".

If we wanted to make them assault infantry, that would be fine. Just keep in mind they are fleet jump infantry, and so have a natural charge range of 24"

Eldar will likely get the same Webway as Dark Eldar, both use them extensively, even though Dark Eldar are possibly slightly better at it (considering the location of their city and all). Reversely, Craftworld Eldar are significantly better at warp travel.

The difficulty with Hawks is mostly their interaction, considering niche, with Spiders. You just can't have two anti-GEQ shooters in the same FO slot.
The current Hawks would work pretty damned well, if you removed yo-yo and simply dumped their prices to a more reasonable level (probably in the 14 point range) to more accurately describe how they perform.
(They are Jump Dire Avengers with -1 strength and no Blade Storm. How much is Jump Infatry worth anyway?)

What would Spiders be, then? They perform the same role at considerably more risk, but with stronger shots. If Hawks are Jump Dire Avengers, then Spiders are Jump Dire Avenger Ninjas. Sort of. I mean, they'd be slightly upgraded Swooping Hawks in the same FO slot, and that there is bad design, meaning the role of the Spider in that case would need to change.
What if hits from Spiders automatically forced the hit model to take a dangerous terrain test (max 1 per model) while placing the entire unit in dangerous terrain the next time the unit moved. This would make it bloody dangerous for both MEQ, GEQ, and TEQ, but the killing volume would depend more on the targeted unit's willingness to move and would probably be smaller than the direct fire of the Hawk.

Sorry for the tendency for rambling here, it's closing hour at work so I guess the incoherency well represents my mind at present.

I don't believe CWE are that much better at Warp Travel as the Eldar as a whole mostly avoid it.
I mean, sure, the Craftworlds hover around in the Materium (I'm not exactly sure why, but it's probably because of A) Pride B) There isn't room enough in many webway paths C) There are Maiden Worlds and the like that can better be accessed from the Materium or D) They are simply too old fashioned, or a mix), but it's specifically stated that strike forces go by webway transport, just like the Dark Eldar.
I mean Warp Spiders are described as being brave because they risk their souls on the field of combat... I wonder what an Eldar thinks of a Rogue Trader.
Anywho, I'm on the side of Shooty-Swoopies and on changing Warp Spider role a bit, because they could be a real bitch to many armies and I sure as hell wouldn't mind paying a little extra for that. I mean just add an AP and they go from GEQ killers to... well... killers-depending-on-the-given-AP.
Or indeed give them the Monofilament rule from the Night Spinner, you'll basically make your opponent stationary.

As I wrote, I blame my incoherent rambling on my state of mind at the time. I was actually thinking of D-cannons and wraith cannons.
Eldar spacecraft can, according to the codex, apparently travel through the Warp (without the astronomicon), although it is a slow and dangerous process.
I believe the true reason the Warp Spiders are such brave individuals is because they travel the warp largely unprotected.

I just spent a few minutes finding the rules for the webway portals, and they do seem to fit nicely for the Craftworld Eldar as well.
Considering that craftworld Eldar seldom, if ever, attack further than a "few light years" from a webway gate, there is more than a little fluff supporting that CWE should have access to portable webways as well.
As far as Wayseers go, though, Eldar seem to approach the webway in a pragmatic and cautious manner, preferring the path previously travelled rather than divining new ones. A wayseer do not quite seem to fit for some reason.

Well... I'd rather see the Solitaire or some other Harlequin HQ re-enter the game.
As is noted, Cegorac, the Laughing God, Inspiration/Master of all Harlequins is basically the only one who knows all of the webway - guess who comes second in knowing the webway? I do indeed believe that to be the Harlequins.
So why not let a Harlequin HQ have an ability that lets you use the webway - if nothing more than just for the Harlequins.

Mahtamori wrote:I just spent a few minutes finding the rules for the webway portals, and they do seem to fit nicely for the Craftworld Eldar as well.
Considering that craftworld Eldar seldom, if ever, attack further than a "few light years" from a webway gate, there is more than a little fluff supporting that CWE should have access to portable webways as well.
As far as Wayseers go, though, Eldar seem to approach the webway in a pragmatic and cautious manner, preferring the path previously travelled rather than divining new ones. A wayseer do not quite seem to fit for some reason.

Just to prevent them being the same as DE, they could be done similarly to the webway portals in DOW. Make them immobile structures that can be destroyed and are place before the start of the game. Maybe AV12 all round, if glanced or penetrated they are removed? Maybe needing to be activated by moving a psyker within maybe 6"? Just to make them tactically different from the Dark Eldar.

Wooly wrote:Well... I'd rather see the Solitaire or some other Harlequin HQ re-enter the game.
As is noted, Cegorac, the Laughing God, Inspiration/Master of all Harlequins is basically the only one who knows all of the webway - guess who comes second in knowing the webway? I do indeed believe that to be the Harlequins.
So why not let a Harlequin HQ have an ability that lets you use the webway - if nothing more than just for the Harlequins.

That would be awesome, I hadn't thought of Solitare. If they made Quin's troops as well I'd HAVE to make a complete clown army

Gorechild wrote:
That would be awesome, I hadn't thought of Solitare. If they made Quin's troops as well I'd HAVE to make a complete clown army

Why not just let the Solitaire make Harlequins a troops choice like so many other special characters/HQs let your something-something become a troops choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also - something else that has struck me is how badly the Death Jester fits into the Harlequin squad.
Sure he lets the squad do something if the unit as a whole is prevented from moving, but that hardly makes up for the LOSS of an attack in close combat. I mean it's not like it's Marines, Orks or any other army where units may be multi-purpose. Eldar units should have but one function that they focus on entirely.

Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

seapheonix wrote:Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

Thats an interesting idea......it would make them extremely different. Maybe something like:

"If a unit with Hawk wings moved in their previous movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn, as they glide above the battlefield. They may choose to assault enemy models however, but if they remain locked in combat, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. All cover saves from swooping hawks shoooting are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example) because of thier elevated vantage point, unfortunately this also makes the swooping hawks an easy target. As a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

Its overly wordy, but I think it gets the point across. If they then had Haywire grenades (exactly like DE) and a S3 R18" AP4/5 assault3 gun? Any attempts at re-writing the hawks wings bit so its more "to the point" would be appreciated

Gorechild wrote:

seapheonix wrote:Been thinking on the role of the swooping hawks a bit more, and I have come a 180 from the idea of making them close combat, I agree that just doesn't fit the fluff. They are always up in the air, so maybe instead, leaving them with what they have now, they could have a special rule as pertains to assault.

Swooping hawks not in close combat cannot be assaulted. Shot at fine, but not assaulted. They can choose to assault, and once they are entangled on the ground they can be charged or counter charged etc... but if they've moved, you would have to say they are still aloft and can't be brought to CC. That would make them a bit more useful as is. able to just hover above assault troops and drop grenades on them.

Thats an interesting idea......it would make them extremely different. Maybe something like:

"If a unit with Hawk wings moved in their previous movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn, as they glide above the battlefield. They may choose to assault enemy models however, but if they remain locked in combat, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. All cover saves from swooping hawks shoooting are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example) because of thier elevated vantage point, unfortunately this also makes the swooping hawks an easy target. As a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

Its overly wordy, but I think it gets the point across. If they then had Haywire grenades (exactly like DE) and a S3 R18" AP4/5 assault3 gun? Any attempts at re-writing the hawks wings bit so its more "to the point" would be appreciated

Quali-teee!

Frankly, I think you are onto something now. That sounds great for hawks.

So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

Gorechild wrote:So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

How would a better AP keep the cost down?