axisofentropy wrote: Anyone notice the Hellblaster Power Level is different in yesterdays' leak and today's published dataslate?
Spoiler:
Maybe the leaked sheet isn't from the boxset, but is rather one of the later versions of a playtesting sheet (especially given how different its format is and the long-winded way of explaining Supercharged)?
Someone told me it was confirmed that Datasheets were NOT free like AoS. I scanned through the thread but didnt see anything. Has anyone else seen/heard anything like this?
Well, not good in the blurry pic from the low angle, but if it's not good I'll be pretty happy honestly given I'm a sucker for Dreadnoughts but don't really want to buy into primaris stuff.
And if it turns out in a better pic to look really good either as is or for conversation potential, I get a good model so I guess win/win?
The Marine Dread is easily one of my fav 40K miniatures (I own 10, I think, and a further 4 Chaos ones). I'm glad they stuck with the basic premise for the one that will eventually replace ol' Washy.
Hmm. Not impressed by the dread. Maybe it will look better from other angles or if posed better. If not, Leviathan remains as good bigger dread option.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The Baal fluff looks bad because the deux ex machina seems extremely, extremely forced and predictable. That, along with the “5 Chapter Masters died, so it's a big deal, but we are not telling you which”…
I am sure it will be expanded upon in further fluff books.
Yeah I hope they will turn bad fluff into good fluff but I would like it even more if it was good fluff from the start.
Vorian wrote: It's not Deus ex Mechanica - it's the guys going round breaking sieges and saving desperate situations.
So “Some chaos daemons ate all the tyranid fleet while not attacking the space marines they hate with a passion, and then just as the defenders are about to finally die some outside huge force appears by chance”.
Totally not a Deus Ex Machina, it's a daemon ex machina and then a primarch ex machina, completely different.
What sucks is… the faction keyword. Stuff that definitely isn't heretic astartes gets called heretic astartes, for instance. Those pox walkers are NOT astartes. And all those models have the exact same faction keywords. Why? Why have different keywords then?
Also:
Q: Will we see a Sisters of battle faction focus soon?
A: Yes, there will be indeed!
If it's actually a Agents of the Imperium faction focus I'm going to be so pissed!
Personally I'm a little bit in love with that Dread, but then I've always been a fan of the old ambulatory washing machine.
At this rate they're going to have a full range of stuff that can be straighforwardly(if perhaps not easily) converted into truescale versions of the existing SM range. I'd have preferred they just straight-up did a truescale range of course, but I can settle for almost(which was doubtless their cunnin' plan from the beginning ).
So “Some chaos daemons ate all the tyranid fleet while not attacking the space marines they hate with a passion, and then just as the defenders are about to finally die some outside huge force appears by chance”.
Totally not a Deus Ex Machina, it's a daemon ex machina and then a primarch ex machina, completely different.
Actually, I'd say that's exactly why. The Blood Angels are HIS toys. HE gets to break them, not some glorified locusts with delusions of grandeur. But this is a discussion for a fluff thread.
Regarding the dreadnought, it doesn't look too bad, how I can imagine it without the tilt and angle. Pretty standard Stompy Robot pose - doesn't matter much to me (Eldar) but a friend likes his dreads so I hope it turns out well for him.
Vida wrote: Someone told me it was confirmed that Datasheets were NOT free like AoS. I scanned through the thread but didnt see anything. Has anyone else seen/heard anything like this?
Well, the core rule set (12 pages) is free. This has been said several times here.
It has been also said that the datasheets are downloadable. To what extent, we will see.
"Heretic Astartes" is just the new, trademarkable "Chaos Space Marines". I wouldn't get too worked up that units with that tag aren't actually Space Marines but are part of a CSM force.
Vida wrote: Someone told me it was confirmed that Datasheets were NOT free like AoS. I scanned through the thread but didnt see anything. Has anyone else seen/heard anything like this?
Well, the core rule set (12 pages) is free. This has been said several times here.
It has been also said that the datasheets are downloadable. To what extent, we will see.
Where? From the off they talked about paid-for books, which are the Indexes. I've seen nothing official about free sheets, just wishlisting.
Yup, just what I figured, these guys look silly as all hell when mixed with the previous marine version. It, looks as bad as any game where I mix RTB01 marines in with 3rd-7th ed marines. Will look even sillier with smurfs having little, big and giant Guilliman.
Well, not good in the blurry pic from the low angle, but if it's not good I'll be pretty happy honestly given I'm a sucker for Dreadnoughts but don't really want to buy into primaris stuff.
And if it turns out in a better pic to look really good either as is or for conversation potential, I get a good model so I guess win/win?
This annoys me more than anything, lore wise... seriously! Let's give this dreadnought to this new guy over this vet who has fought for like 10 years...
JohnnyHell wrote: "Heretic Astartes" is just the new, trademarkable "Chaos Space Marines". I wouldn't get too worked up that units with that tag aren't actually Space Marines but are part of a CSM force.
Vida wrote: Someone told me it was confirmed that Datasheets were NOT free like AoS. I scanned through the thread but didnt see anything. Has anyone else seen/heard anything like this?
Well, the core rule set (12 pages) is free. This has been said several times here.
It has been also said that the datasheets are downloadable. To what extent, we will see.
Where? From the off they talked about paid-for books, which are the Indexes. I've seen nothing official about free sheets, just wishlisting.
Let's put free datasheets on our GW wishlist.
In the mk3 edition of WMH, the ''datasheets'' per faction (incl. pt costs) were about 20 Euro.
Oh look a bigger verison of the box dreadnought to go with the bigger tactical marines and the bigger assualt marines and the bigger devastators....no way GW is replacing space marines with primaris.
BrotherGecko wrote: Oh look a bigger verison of the box dreadnought to go with the bigger tactical marines and the bigger assualt marines and the bigger devastators....no way GW is replacing space marines with primaris.
Yea, but that won't prevent people from ignoring the writing pasted all over their walls.
EDIT: I don't actually mind an upscale BTW, though I won't be in any rush to buy the new guys considering I own about 360 fully painted and based old school marines.
BrotherGecko wrote: Oh look a bigger verison of the box dreadnought to go with the bigger tactical marines and the bigger assualt marines and the bigger devastators....no way GW is replacing space marines with primaris.
You're correct, there's yet to be the slightest evidence.
I'm trying to make out the psychic powers. Here's what I've got for Nurgle, but it's not great (things too blurry to make out are [???] and if I've put it in square brackets, I'm unsure of it):
Nurgle Discipline D3 Psychic power 1. [???] of Corruption --[???] of Corruption has a warp charge value of [5?]. If [marshalled?], [pick?] the closest enemy unit within 7" of the psyker. The unit suffers [D3] mortal wounds if it has fewer than 10 models and [D6] mortal wounds if it has 10 models or more. 2. [Virulent] Blessing --[Virulent] Blessing has a warp charge value of 6. If [marshalled], pick a Nurgle Daemon unit within [18]" of the psyker. You can add 1 to all wound rolls [made by this unit] in the Fight phase. [??????????????], any wound rolls of 7+ [???] that [unit] in the Fight phase [inflicts] double damage. 3. [Fl??? ???????] --{Fl??? ??????] has a warp charge value of of [?]. If [marshalled], select a friendly Nurgle Daemon unit within [16/18]" of the psyker. That unit [recovers] D6 [wounds] lost earlier in the battle
Pretty tough to make out. The top Tzeentch one is obviously a random buff affecting Tzeentch Daemons (+1 attack, +1 strength or +1 toughness) but my eyes already hurt from trying to do Nurgle alone.
Also, I'm slightly surprised GW put fully unobscured breasts next to the page. I guess if there was ever a step to make it more kid friendly, someone's thrown that in the bin - no need to worry about Slaanesh remaining then.
RoninXiC wrote: The current Dread is one of the worst models in the 40k line.. The legs are just plain bad.
The Whasing Machine with Baby legs is one of the most iconics thing of all of 40k. Is just a totally not-fuctional tomb with legs that can barely moves piloted by a guy that just keep fighting. Is the definition of 40k made model.
BrotherGecko wrote: Oh look a bigger verison of the box dreadnought to go with the bigger tactical marines and the bigger assualt marines and the bigger devastators....no way GW is replacing space marines with primaris.
Yea, but that won't prevent people from ignoring the writing pasted all over their walls.
EDIT: I don't actually mind an upscale BTW, though I won't be in any rush to buy the new guys considering I own about 360 fully painted and based old school marines.
I say why not! I can't wait to see the faces of the smug players I mow down with my "inferior" oop marines.
So everyone will know Smite plus maybe a couple other powers.
You can make out a few basic rules from that, though it's stuff that was all confirmed in the Chaos Daemon Faction Focus article; i.e. Nurgle Daemons have the same Disgustingly Resilient special rule that all the Death Guard units have, whereas Tzeentch Daemons add 1 to their invulnerable saves, etc.
Can't make out much about the psychic powers or the Daemonic Ritual rule though. The first Tzeentch power involves a D3 roll and seems to give +1 Attack, +1 Strength or +1 Toughness based on that D3 roll.
Anyone still going to argue Numarines are not using tau tech with the obvius Ghostkeel-based adaptation in this dude? the main gun is practically a Cyclic Ion Raker.
Pretty pleased with the Genestealer Cults ability to take Imperial Guard formations. It's a good way to get some extra use out of my Guards both in matched play and narrative scenarios.
Aesthete wrote: Pretty pleased with the Genestealer Cults ability to take Imperial Guard formations. It's a good way to get some extra use out of my Guards both in matched play and narrative scenarios.
The article didn't make it sound like it had anything to do with GSC, rather that literally anything can ally with anything in 8th Ed.
Aesthete wrote: Pretty pleased with the Genestealer Cults ability to take Imperial Guard formations. It's a good way to get some extra use out of my Guards both in matched play and narrative scenarios.
The article didn't make it sound like it had anything to do with GSC, rather that literally anything can ally with anything in 8th Ed.
Spoiler:
One of my favourite aspects of the Genestealer Cults, though, is their ability to form their army using both their own faction, Tyranids and Astra Militarum, too. Huzzah! Due to the way that allies worked in the previous edition, making an army that mixed Genestealer Cult units and Astra Militarum wasn’t always straightforward. These are, of course, not “real” Astra Militarum, but devoted followers of the Cult who have turned from the Emperor’s light and betrayed their fellow man. The way it works in the new Warhammer 40,000 is really fun. You can take one Astra Militarum Detachment for each Genestealer Cults Detachment in your Battle-forged army. They each need to be entirely comprised of units with their respective keyword, but this allows incredible amounts of diversity in your army that is also quite characterful.
I guess it could be read as a description of new ally rules. I personally read it as a GSC army ability that for every GSC detachment they can take a AM or Tyranid one.
Aesthete wrote: Pretty pleased with the Genestealer Cults ability to take Imperial Guard formations. It's a good way to get some extra use out of my Guards both in matched play and narrative scenarios.
The article didn't make it sound like it had anything to do with GSC, rather that literally anything can ally with anything in 8th Ed.
I would assume that you wouldn't be able to take AM and GC in the same army without them having a special allowance to do so as neither would share any keywords. Nids and GC will probably both share "Tyranid" so they can just mix in normally. I expect all units in your army will need at least one high level keyword in common such as "Imperium", "Chaos", "Eldar", "Ork", "Tyranid" etc..
Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
changemod wrote: Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
Ah, the eternal question, 'angry hamster ball or angry washing machine?'
changemod wrote: Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
I feel the opposite - I hate the Leviathan Dread, it looks like someone stuffed pillows under the armour and the guy inside got really fat because it's softly rounded. This dread comes across as Leviathan mk II to me, or a mini warhound.
As for Tau resemblance, I don't see it. About the only thing they share in common is the 3 circular tanks at the bottom; everything else looks pretty much like the old Dread plasma cannon.
BrotherGecko wrote: Oh look a bigger verison of the box dreadnought to go with the bigger tactical marines and the bigger assualt marines and the bigger devastators....no way GW is replacing space marines with primaris.
Yea, but that won't prevent people from ignoring the writing pasted all over their walls.
EDIT: I don't actually mind an upscale BTW, though I won't be in any rush to buy the new guys considering I own about 360 fully painted and based old school marines.
I say why not! I can't wait to see the faces of the smug players I mow down with my "inferior" oop marines.
Yea I know it right, although it makes finishing the guys I have on sprues or in the painting queue all the harder to finish.
changemod wrote: Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
Until something is actually revealed that draws this...'connection' a little clearer, let's just leave this tangent behind, OK?
changemod wrote: Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
It's also hard to ignore the coincidence that is the Tau's location near the Ultramarines as well
They are a separate army.
Example they used were they are the same as custodes or thunder warriors. A totally different breed with different equipment and support.
They also used that reasoning to say that the normal marines will not be phased out.
Someone also asked if there would still be releases for the old marines and they said not strisgtened away, but in the future.
changemod wrote: Yeah now that I've had time to look it over that Dread has exactly the same number and arrangement of hard points as a Leviathan dread, whilst being significantly less cool. Pass.
As for the Tau thing: If they didn't mean for Cawl to be ripping off the Tau they've certainly did a phenomenal job of accidental parallels given he's invented imperial crisis suits.
I feel the opposite - I hate the Leviathan Dread, it looks like someone stuffed pillows under the armour and the guy inside got really fat because it's softly rounded. This dread comes across as Leviathan mk II to me, or a mini warhound.
As for Tau resemblance, I don't see it. About the only thing they share in common is the 3 circular tanks at the bottom; everything else looks pretty much like the old Dread plasma cannon.
Yea the Leviathan has the exact same issues as the contemptor. It looks like a chibby model out of a 90's video game, I bet they could make one out of PVC without much if any detail loss. Instead of walking sarcophagus they just look like big robot marines. I won't argue that the old washing machine isn't silly, but I will argue that it is silly in the right ways; I walking fighting casket/life support system for a fallen hero from the past called upon in dire straights, rather then hulkbuster armor.
Just received emails showing that GW has shipped me two copies of the starter box and a set of the codices. Tuesday can't come fast enough. I'll get to start painting Deathguard and find out what my orks can do this time around.
Sorry if it's been posted (just link me to the thread) but has any points costs been leaked? I'm curious what a squad of Plasma Marines (Primaris) costs, for example, or the standard squad of Plague Marines, or any other major units for comparison, like an Imperial Knight.
Rather important to get an idea what size tournament armies will be.
The whole 'stealing Tau tech' thing might be a good shout....
We know Cawl is a bit of a wildcard as the Mechanicus goes, mostly because he's got the backing of Guilliman,
But it's not necessarily adapted tech so much as inspired.
When the Mechanicus go to war, they collect data and lots of it. It could simply be inspirationd derived from that data - angles of armour plates, design of a leg.
Or the ship that the Tau found that kickstarted their technology could be a Dark Age ship, and Cawl has simply found the relevant STC etc.
Not necessarily anything untoward or suspicious there.
They are a separate army.
Example they used were they are the same as custodes or thunder warriors. A totally different breed with different equipment and support.
They also used that reasoning to say that the normal marines will not be phased out.
Someone also asked if there would still be releases for the old marines and they said not strisgtened away, but in the future.
To be honest I thought this was the case the moment the Inceptors were shown off, simply because they look nothing like Assault Marines and apparently fill an entirely different role. If we don't get a Scout equivalent, Primaris Marines will not replace the classics. In Age of Sigmar, the world got blown up which justified the creation of new armies and removal of old ones. In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters? Let's not forget that Primaris Marines have an entirely different chapter battle organization compared to normal Space Marines - the former are organized like Heresy-era Legions, the latter adhere to the Codex Astartes.
People are just too quick to jump to a conclusion based on the worst possible scenario.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
We know Cawl is a bit of a wildcard as the Mechanicus goes, mostly because he's got the backing of Guilliman,
But it's not necessarily adapted tech so much as inspired.
When the Mechanicus go to war, they collect data and lots of it. It could simply be inspirationd derived from that data - angles of armour plates, design of a leg.
Or the ship that the Tau found that kickstarted their technology could be a Dark Age ship, and Cawl has simply found the relevant STC etc.
Not necessarily anything untoward or suspicious there.
There's also plenty of fluff from the Damocles campaign books about the Mechanicus studying and capturing plenty of tau tech, basically having a field day with exploiting the campaign for their own ends.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?
Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
That'd make a lot of sense if it weren't for the fact that all primaris marines shown so far fill subtly to extremely different tactical roles to their nearest equivalent regular marine unit, especially in tabletop terms.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?
Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.
All those characters will be getting upgrades to become Primaris too. Can't wait to see new versions of those classic models.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
It's been stated you can turn existing space marines into Numarines. You don't even need them to all die out to replace all of them.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?
Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.
They are going to go under the knife and be turned into numarines. On Robbie's tumblr "a-40k-author" he already hinted that Calgar will be getting the upgrade.
I wonder if we'll have Primarus landraiders, predators, whirlwinds etc. The old tanks look ok with the new models but their wargear might become out of date.
They are going to go under the knife and be turned into numarines. On Robbie's tumblr "1-40k-author" he already hinted that Calgar will be getting the upgrade.
Uh-huh. So those brand new plastic Cypher and Voldus models will be getting the Primaris upgrade too? Mmhmm. Sure.
So they're going to update Azrael, Tigurius, Telion, Logan Grimnar, Mephiston, the Sanguinor and all the various FW models too? I can totally see all of those guys as Primaris Marines! Or, I guess they can just all die, too. Yeah! Let's do that!
They also said a lot of thing about the End Times in Warhammer Fantasy and yet...
Let me see, is the Warhammer 40,000 universe getting blown up and completely restarted from scratch? Let's not forget that Age of Sigmar was a product of WHFB being unprofitable, whereas 40K makes up for the vast majority of GW's total sales.
Give me the answer at your leisure.
Therion wrote: Sorry if it's been posted (just link me to the thread) but has any points costs been leaked? I'm curious what a squad of Plasma Marines (Primaris) costs, for example, or the standard squad of Plague Marines, or any other major units for comparison, like an Imperial Knight.
Rather important to get an idea what size tournament armies will be.
The 5 plasma marines are 200 points from what we've seen. The Gravis captain with fist and MC sword is 148 I think. Intercessors are 24 each, and the inceptors with twin assault bolters were 53 each.
Points look mostly in line with 7th edition +/- 5% or so, so I'd expect tournies to be in the 1500-2000 range going forward as well.
That last shot is hilarious. The MkIV marine looks like he's looking up to his big brother.
So he does!
See now the older marines just look stubby and even cartoony compared to the new ones. And it's nice to see that all the chapters look good in primarus.
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?
Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
They are going to go under the knife and be turned into numarines. On Robbie's tumblr "1-40k-author" he already hinted that Calgar will be getting the upgrade.
Uh-huh. So those brand new plastic Cypher and Voldus models will be getting the Primaris upgrade too? Mmhmm. Sure.
So they're going to update Azrael, Tigurius, Telion, Logan Grimnar, Mephiston, the Sanguinor and all the various FW models too?
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
You don't have to like it, but they left the door open to phase out the old marines and still be able to take everyone's classic favourites with them into the numarines.
They are going to go under the knife and be turned into numarines. On Robbie's tumblr "1-40k-author" he already hinted that Calgar will be getting the upgrade.
Uh-huh. So those brand new plastic Cypher and Voldus models will be getting the Primaris upgrade too? Mmhmm. Sure.
So they're going to update Azrael, Tigurius, Telion, Logan Grimnar, Mephiston, the Sanguinor and all the various FW models too?
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
That'll be pretty depressing for people who don't want to do mixed armies and see one of their favourite characters get a new model in Primaris scale with Mark X armour.
They are going to go under the knife and be turned into numarines. On Robbie's tumblr "1-40k-author" he already hinted that Calgar will be getting the upgrade.
Uh-huh. So those brand new plastic Cypher and Voldus models will be getting the Primaris upgrade too? Mmhmm. Sure.
So they're going to update Azrael, Tigurius, Telion, Logan Grimnar, Mephiston, the Sanguinor and all the various FW models too?
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
That'll be pretty depressing for people who don't want to do mixed armies and see one of their favourite characters get a new model in Primaris scale with Mark X armour.
They'll either use their old model or get over it.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.
Lockark wrote:
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.
See now the older marines just look stubby and even cartoony compared to the new ones. And it's nice to see that all the chapters look good in primarus.
Those Space Wolves don't look right.... no Chainsword.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.
Lockark wrote:
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.
But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old marines out.
It makes a whole lot of sense for them to update some of the finecast/metal character models that otherwise would have never seen an update. It'd be a great way to bring back Cortez, for example.
However, phasing out *all* the Marines? Cypher and Voldus (among countless other factors) say No Way Jose!
I don't even know why we're still having this discussion (in general, not just with you). They flat out said they will be releasing normal Space Marine models in the future. If their plan was to phase an entire range out, that wouldn't be the case. Looking at End Times ----> Age of Sigmar is a good example for this; ranges that didn't get any models (Bretonnia, Tomb Kings) got completely removed. For the rest, they had partial removals based on cleaning up the clutter - mostly metal/finecast character models got the axe, with a few redundant plastic kits like High Elf Spearmen (as Dark Elf Spearmen stand in for them anyway).
Failing all this, just look at it from a financial perspective. It makes a whole heap of sense to sell *both* Primaris and regular Space Marines rather than just one or the other. People want true-scale Marines? Primaris. People want classic Marines? Regular. That's why the fluff for Primaris Marines shows them to be an entirely separate entity. Just looking through any thread regarding the Primaris Marines will prove why keeping both ranges together is best for business.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
So, following your logic, oldmarines should definitely go away, because there are new and shiny marines next to them. And who doesn't want a new and shiny version of the best selling range? If not right away, then after the sales numbers hit. Again, that's just a normal follow up of your logic.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
Colour Sergeant Kell and most likely Creed. Bonus: One major planet exploded/wrecked/whatever. Don't forget, "Gathering Storm" is just a beginning.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations
I'm disappointed that the GSC lost IG vehicle and infantry options. If someone has a mixed army, they need to purchase two books at the minimum and potentially several different boxes at the worst to make up for losing units in what is now two different armies.
I'm glad they sized them accordingly with the new Space Marines. Having them the size of the old marines would have been an unnecessary slight to Chaos players.
That last shot is hilarious. The MkIV marine looks like he's looking up to his big brother.
Little dude looks more belligerent than that.
"Don't tell your sempai what to do, first-year!"
Is... is it bad that I want to make wonky anime themed Black Templar Crusader Squads with Primaris instead of Scouts, with serious sempai/kohai dynamics between the regular marines and the newbies?
In 40K, what possible fluff justification could they use to get rid of all the existing Space Marine models and characters?
Very simple: as numarines are superior to oldmarines in every way, there's no point in making oldmarines any more. Especially, when numarines can be bred faster. Let the oldmarines die out in time and be replenished with numarines.
Exactly, like you would restock any other product with a better, new and improved product.
Yeah, and what happens to Marneus Calgar, Commander Dante, Ragnar Blackmane, Cypher, Alessio Cortez, etc? You know, characters that are a major part of the history of 40K? They just disappear?
Put it to bed. They have outright stated they will not phase the old Marines out and that there will be future releases for them. If they were going the way of the dodo, there would be no new Space Marine models.
They already said they can be updated with the NuSyrum honestly as soon as the first named characters get the NuSauce it should be hard to argue against the rest of the chapter following suit.
Ignispacium wrote: I'm disappointed that the GSC lost IG vehicle and infantry options. If someone has a mixed army, they need to purchase two books at the minimum and potentially several different boxes at the worst to make up for losing units in what is now two different armies.
They didn't say that at all. They mentioned new ways to build armies incorporating guard or nids but they didn't say GSC lost things like LRBT or sentinals. They might, but we don't know yet. Either way it sounds super easy to port those things back in, use your Neophyte cavalcade as your guard detachment, done.
Melionodr wrote: Anybody found out what the daemonic ritual means? I think this will be the ability that makes or breaks the daemon army for many players....
(because I saw no summoning power)
Can't read a damn thing from any of those pages, and I'm really curious as well about all of them. My daemons are worried.
Melionodr wrote: Anybody found out what the daemonic ritual means? I think this will be the ability that makes or breaks the daemon army for many players....
(because I saw no summoning power)
Can't read a damn thing from any of those pages, and I'm really curious as well about all of them. My daemons are worried.
If they follow the Sigmar route the summoning spell comes from the daemon dataslate itself.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
So, following your logic, oldmarines should definitely go away, because there are new and shiny marines next to them. And who doesn't want a new and shiny version of the best selling range? If not right away, then after the sales numbers hit. Again, that's just a normal follow up of your logic.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
Colour Sergeant Kell and most likely Creed. Bonus: One major planet exploded/wrecked/whatever. Don't forget, "Gathering Storm" is just a beginning.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations
Knell is a secondary character at best and Creed wasn't killed.
I mean we've had models for those characters for years. The people who love them that much should've already played quite a few games with their original models over the past few years right, right? I guess sure, Ragnar could use an update but honestly why make the same model twice?
8th Edition is propelling the narrative of 40k forward by a few decades from what I understand. The sales of most releases - even in this hobby - tend to be front loaded. The new edition is apparently going to follow the AoS route and thus receive minor yearly updates rather than a rare total paradigm shift. If they were going to phase out the Old Marines so the Primaris Marines could get maximum exposure, they would have done it already. To do it later once the Primaris Marines are competing with OTHER new releases makes little sense. Let's not forget that the existing Space Marine range is by far GW's biggest seller. Again, what legitimate financial reason do they have to get rid of them? Let's not forget the very recent Space Marine models we got. Also, your "in the future" comment doesn't hold weight because GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models down the line. What exactly is the timeline of this phasing out?
Creed got captured by Trazyn, so no, he doesn't really count. That leaves us with Kell. Considering he's not even a Space Marine, this doesn't really help your argument.
Doesn't change the fact that you were misrepresenting the differences between the seemingly equivalent units.
@ Red Corsair
Read my earlier posts, I'd prefer not to repeat myself. It opens the door for characters like Cortez to return to the tabletop, it doesn't signify the end of all Marines. As far as Chapters "wanting to follow suit", the Warhammer Community articles clearly stated some regular Marines have no love for the Primaris Marines.
Ultimately, you guys can believe what you want. GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models and won't phase out their best selling range (by FAR I might add) across all game systems. Seems pretty obvious what will happen.
Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations
It is funny how people think these are all numarines. No direct assault marine now? Ok doesn't mean no in future. Heavy inside squad? What prevents new option later.
Primaris Marines are being released over the next few months with the first batch coming in June.
GW are releasing regular Space Marine models down the line.
This means they will release new regular Space Marine models AFTER releasing Primaris Marine models.
We're done here.
Now, let's talk about something relevant.
The new Perils rules will be amusing with Orks if Weirdboys function much as they do now.
Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.
What do we all think about the fliers no longer being able to fly on and off the battlefield? I kind of think it removes the unique feeling of them and also makes them feel a little less useful.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.
Technically they're their own faction. Just as Daemons and CSM are their own factions.
However with the way armies are built now and the use of Keywords there's a lot more flexibility in making an army.
So you could literally build an army using the Keyword Imperium - mixing and matching AM, SM, Primaris and Ad-Mech freely. Or you could use the Keyword <Chapter Name> using SM and Primaris.
Just like Chaos can now quite happily use the Keyword Chaos to combine Daemons, Renegades and CSM or <Chaos God> to combine Daemons and CSM of a specific god. Or just go mono with it.
They keyword system is great, it keeps synergies locked to smaller factions but lets you mix and match larger alliances as you see fit. It's definitely one of the better AoS ports.
lolman1c wrote: What do we all think about the fliers no longer being able to fly on and off the battlefield? I kind of think it removes the unique feeling of them and also makes them feel a little less useful.
Frankly I would rather have poorly simulated flyers than flyers that break the framework the rest of the game runs on. If they're just fast skimmers with a minimum move and a -1 to hit penalty now, I couldn't be happier short of them managing to miraculously come up with simulationist rules that aren't really awkward.
If they were going to phase out the Old Marines so the Primaris Marines could get maximum exposure, they would have done it already.
My guess it's because they just don't want to anger a very good bunch of players. It's always more gentle when you do it slowly
To do it later once the Primaris Marines are competing with OTHER new releases makes little sense.
We don't know anything about new releases. It might as well be whole summer of numarines with a few DG releases. Just like with Sigmarines.
Again, what legitimate financial reason do they have to get rid of them?
As I've said, if they are outsold like 10 to 1 (Like, it was with Lucius and Mars Titans, in example), I see no reason why they shouldn't focus on what's selling better.
Also, your "in the future" comment doesn't hold weight because GW said they are releasing new regular Space Marine models down the line.
I'm too lazy to scroll back, but wasn't that comment more in the lines of "eh, someday, don't have high hopes about it"?
Creed got captured by Trazyn, so no, he doesn't really count.
Slaanesh got captured too. Have we heard anything about it since then? It's been two years now Kell has its own model, so I think he DOES count.
Considering he's not even a Space Marine, this doesn't really help your argument.
I will repeat myself once again: the action is only starting. Killing characters slowly shouldn't be so painful as killing them all in one go
Anyways, this discussion is kinda pointless. Let's just wait and see. I don't really care anyways, I don't play marines
They didn't do it slowly with AoS. As I said, new edition with the narrative advancing by several decades? Perfect time to do the phasing out or at least kick it off.
GW releases new models nearly every week. I'm talking months or years into the future. If new regular Space Marine models are coming but not any time soon per GW's words, what logical time frame is there between releasing those and phasing them out? A couple of years at least? That's a LOT of new releases. Primaris Marines won't be the shiny new toy by then.
If. That's a huge if. Even then, if they still sell better than the other ranges - which they obviously will regardless of how well Primaris Marines do - there's still no good financial reason to remove them.
Again, what is the timeframe? How long will this mythical phasing out take?
What's your point? Slaanesh isn't dead, he's tied into the impending Shadow Aelves release. Creed also isn't dead.
Obviously. Yet here's the problem; the narrative moved forward a whole lot of years between Rise of the Primarch and 8th Edition; think decades. Have we heard of any major character deaths yet? We just saw Dante survive a Hive Fleet.
Fair enough.
Even so...they are releasing new regular Marines after Primaris Marines. That kills the phasing out theory.
Just wait until they release more of the numarine variations
It is funny how people think these are all numarines. No direct assault marine now? Ok doesn't mean no in future. Heavy inside squad? What prevents new option later.
It's funny that you think 'WELL THEY COULD DO IT!?! supports your argument. Honestly I don't really understand why it's a big thing if they do eclipse oldmarines. The models are better and if you can still use rogue trader marines just fine I doubt very much that you'll be banned for not using numarines.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.
Technically they're their own faction. Just as Daemons and CSM are their own factions.
However with the way armies are built now and the use of Keywords there's a lot more flexibility in making an army.
So you could literally build an army using the Keyword Imperium - mixing and matching AM, SM, Primaris and Ad-Mech freely. Or you could use the Keyword <Chapter Name> using SM and Primaris.
Just like Chaos can now quite happily use the Keyword Chaos to combine Daemons, Renegades and CSM or <Chaos God> to combine Daemons and CSM of a specific god. Or just go mono with it.
Okay good. As long as I can run a mixed army in one detachment without penalty, I will be happy. Thanks for clarifying.
I really need that Redemptor Dreadnought though. He combines the Contemptor and AWM Dreadnought into one cohesive beastie. I can't wait for a Furioso Variant. I hope there are more weapons than the plasma cannon, but otherwise I am happy with the loadout.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.
Per the information I have seen so far, they are not their own faction unless there is a <Chapter> simply called Primaris. Whether this is the case or not, they can still be Crimson Fists, assuming that Crimson Fists is one of the factions in the <Chapter> list (I don't think we know anything about what our options here are yet).
This is important because there are certain Abilities that only affect certain chapters, an example of which being shown in the new Captain in Gravis Armor, who's Rites of Battle lets other marines of the same <Chapter> reroll 1s to hit. We can assume that the Crimson Fists would have these sorts of abilities as well.
Thus we can assume that you can pick Crimson Fists as the <Chapter>, and the Primaris Marines become Crimson Fists for all intents and purposes, gaining any Abilities common to all Crimson Fists, and affecting other non-primaris Crimson fists with any <Chapter> abilities they might posses, such as the Captain in Gravis Armor's Rites of Battle Ability. This is cool because it means that the primaris marines are not allies like, say, guardsmen might be, but are actually a real part of your army.
This also means that if you had an army with both Crimson Fists and say, Space Wolves, you would need to pick one of those <Chapters> for the Primaris to be, and you would only be affected by the abilities of the one you pick. I suppose you could also pick a third <Chapter> entirely, though there might not be much a point to that. I like this in that it allows you to take an army of mixed secondary factions if you want to, but potentially provides more synergy if you focus on only one.
I get the feeling that the primaris marines will have units in each slot so if you wanted you could run an entire army of primaris, you could decide to mix them up, or not.
Basically think of it as space marines getting an extra few choices in their codex rather than a replacement. And with the prices we have seen it doesnt seem like they are going to be "marines only better" once you factor in the points cost.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Upthread there was a mention of Primaris Marines bring a separate army from Space Marines. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? I really hope it isn't the case, since I want to still have stuff from my regular Crimson Fists in my army.
Per the information I have seen so far, they are not their own faction unless there is a <Chapter> simply called Primaris. Whether this is the case or not, they can still be Crimson Fists, assuming that Crimson Fists is one of the factions in the <Chapter> list (I don't think we know anything about what our options here are yet).
This is important because there are certain Abilities that only affect certain chapters, an example of which being shown in the new Captain in Gravis Armor, who's Rites of Battle lets other marines of the same <Chapter> reroll 1s to hit. We can assume that the Crimson Fists would have these sorts of abilities as well.
Thus we can assume that you can pick Crimson Fists as the <Chapter>, and the Primaris Marines become Crimson Fists for all intents and purposes, gaining any Abilities common to all Crimson Fists, and affecting other non-primaris Crimson fists with any <Chapter> abilities they might posses, such as the Captain in Gravis Armor's Rites of Battle Ability. This is cool because it means that the primaris marines are not allies like, say, guardsmen might be, but are actually a real part of your army.
This also means that if you had an army with both Crimson Fists and say, Space Wolves, you would need to pick one of those <Chapters> for the Primaris to be, and you would only be affected by the abilities of the one you pick. I suppose you could also pick a third <Chapter> entirely, though there might not be much a point to that. I like this in that it allows you to take an army of mixed secondary factions if you want to, but potentially provides more synergy if you focus on only one.
To add to this, in the FAQ they also mentioned that some new Chapters were made entirely from Primaris Marines, so that should also be interesting. What is comes down to is, you can basically make them part of any space marine faction you want.
Yeah, and look at the massively negative reaction AoS got because of it. And that was for a "dead game" at that. It was received so poorly that AoS products were being sold for fire sale prices not long before the GHB came out, if I'm not mistaken.
Sounds like they might have learned their lesson, yeah?
Caederes wrote: As I said, new edition with the narrative advancing by several decades? Perfect time to do the phasing out or at least kick it off.
...which is kinda what they're doing, isn't it? Why else would there be a need to make fluff dictating that old Marines can be "converted" into the new ones? That's GW "kicking it off" right there, officially putting it in print, so that if they so chose they have a good in-universe justification for phasing out the old product line and replacing it with the new. I imagine it all depends on how they sell over the next couple years.
They're saying that old Marines won't be phased out because they're not fething stupid. That kind of news would cause far, FAR greater backlash than AoS did on release. They're playing it safe.
GW also once promised Squats would get updated, not too long before they were removed from the game entirely because no one in the studio could be arsed about them. Allegedly sales didn't even have anything to do with it.
Even so...they are releasing new regular Marines after Primaris Marines. That kills the phasing out theory.
So they say, anyway.
I guess you're right though, I mean I can't think of any reason why they'd possibly want to lie about wanting to replace the Marine range, it's not like they allegedly account for over half of their sales or anything and thus needs to be handled very delicately to avoid anything potentially disastrous for the company...
Anyway, those indices look reasonably thick. Was a little worried they'd be light on content for $25 but that doesn't seem to be the case yet.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable.
If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar. The decision makers at the company merely decided it wasn't profitable enough, and thought they could make a bigger RoI through a drastic reboot rather than giving WHF the support necessary to do better.
Besides which, the point being made by reference to the End Times was not that the same logic that drove the End Times/AoS shift is the one driving the Restartes(it is though, albeit in a more moderate way due to the relative share of revenues enjoyed by 40K & SM), it's that GW will lie out the arse to our faces, or at least deliberately omit the truth, if it suits their purposes to do so. Treating their insistance there will be more regular Marine releases at some point in the future as relatively plausible is one thing, treating it as inviolable divine law as you seem to be is just begging to be disappointed.
Lockark wrote: So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.
Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters
The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.
Lockark wrote: So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.
Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters
Well. It's mainly that the new plasma gun rules don't allow for any sort of save to be taken. You just remove the whole model from the table regardless of how many wounds it has.
Anthocaries/medics traditionally gave you a chance to save a slain model, but also could be improving your armour save. But the fact it seems the new rules just remove the model from the game, gives me a feeling medics can't help them anymore.
Lockark wrote: So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.
Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters
The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.
Yah, this is how I'm understanding it also. I guess in the case of the IG I'm starting for 8th, they trusty old 3 plasma guns plus medic got nerfed.... Guess I need a 4th plasma gun for the squad now lol.
Grinshanks wrote: I guess it could be read as a description of new ally rules. I personally read it as a GSC army ability that for every GSC detachment they can take a AM or Tyranid one.
Yeah, that was my read as well and I think - though that's inference on my part - that said Guard detachments will get a Tyranid keyword as well.
Lockark wrote: So I realized with the new plasma gun rules, it seems medics and apothocaries no longer help your plasmagun squads from blowing up.
Depends, we have no idea if apoths are still part of units or are going to be more like separate characters
The point is that even if they are, plasma gun explosions remove models entirely, just like failed morale tests. Apothecaries might be able to bubble-heal inflicted wounds on some roll or other, but the backfiring gun does not inflict wounds to save or negate.
While you are right about the backfiring, we really have no idea how the Nartheciums might work yet. I assume it will be something like the death guard's Disgustingly Resiliant, meaning that there really is a high price to pay for the S8 D2. I'm not sure i see that as a bad thing, though.
Galas wrote: The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€
Oh snap I thought these were gonna be just thin booklets with the stats. Hopefully there is a fair bit of fluff here.
Loving that new Dread, Terminators best be next.
I guess we will see new DG stuff tomorrow in the seminar. That artwork is outstanding and eager to see if those beasties are models, the BoN looks like it has a bit of Tyranid in it and that I sure hope that GUO has a model form.
And damn GW, its like they know I just planned to use those Primaris as BA and IF. What do they do, show off some beautiful IF Primaris and release a BA transfer with a St Michael esque pose for both banners and vehicle stencils. Holy they are beautiful.
hhmmmmm. Was reading the descriptions for the Forge World Index books.
Index: forces of the astra militarum wrote:Datasheets for all of Forge World’s Warhammer 40,000 Astra Militarum range, including Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian models, and Renegade Imperial Guard forces as well as the immense war machines of the Titan Legions and Knight Houses.
Index: Forces of Chaos wrote:
Datasheets for all of Forge World’s Warhammer 40,000 Chaos Space Marines and Daemon models, as well as Chaos Titans.
Due to the rules hint we were given today in regards to Genesteeler cult, we might just be able to take Gaurd units as tratior Gaurd like the genestealer cult can? Hopefully I'm not getting my hopes up for no reason. lol
If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.
Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.
No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.
Galas wrote: The indexes. Those are some good books for 20€
Oh snap I thought these were gonna be just thin booklets with the stats. Hopefully there is a fair bit of fluff here.
Loving that new Dread, Terminators best be next.
I guess we will see new DG stuff tomorrow in the seminar. That artwork is outstanding and eager to see if those beasties are models, the BoN looks like it has a bit of Tyranid in it and that I sure hope that GUO has a model form.
And damn GW, its like they know I just planned to use those Primaris as BA and IF. What do they do, show off some beautiful IF Primaris and release a BA transfer with a St Michael esque pose for both banners and vehicle stencils. Holy they are beautiful.
Those Kharadron dioramas. My lawd.
Even as big as they are I doubt there's more than a page of fluff per faction in them. There are A LOT of units in 40k + any special army rules they choose to include.
Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.
So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?
A quick count of the Xenos models from book 2 would be approximately 135 models. If it's one page per model then it makes sense, some might be two if they have lots of options. Add in faction rules no doubt. We know that chaos has chaos marks and legions. Marines have chapter tactics ect. For Tau we've seen a specific sept mentioned so we will likely have sept tactics. I suspect every faction will have quite a bit of unique rules to fill out a book that big. Still I imagine at least a page or two of fluff given the books density.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.
So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?
With the 3-6 Heavy support Spearhead detachment, I'm not sure if tank company needs to exist anymore? You just only get 1 CP per detachment is the downside. Maby the same with the Dread Mod and SM siege army?
If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.
Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.
No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.
Doesn't mean fb wasn't also profitable. DUCY?
Would be pretty unlikely top3 selling game(all mini games) would be unprofitable. What the hell gw could be screwlng that makes that well selling product unprofitable.
If you're going to make pronouncements with such authority, you should probably bother to actually check you're right first. There are no indications at all that WHFB was unprofitable, and it certainly wasn't at the time the studio chose to begin working on Age of Sigmar.
Kirby was quoted saying that the 40K Tactical Space Marines Box outsold and was more profitable than the entire range of Warhammer Fantasy combined.
No, I'm not going to hunt down the source from years ago, because you've been living under a rock.
Doesn't mean fb wasn't also profitable. DUCY?
Would be pretty unlikely top3 selling game(all mini games) would be unprofitable. What the hell gw could be screwlng that makes that well selling product unprofitable.
There's so much contradictory information regarding WHFB and sales that you could argue pretty much any point you wanted to and find SOMETHING to back it up. The important things are A) WHFB is dead and nothing's gonna bring it back and B) This is not a WHFB thread.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.
Lockark wrote:
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.
But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.
That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.
From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.
I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.
axisofentropy wrote: I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:
FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>
They are Space Marines.
<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.
Gamgee wrote: Excellent. Might have to grab both xenos if they have fluff. That way I can see if the DE got any cool new tidbits.
I thought you said you were going over to Age Of Sigmar? Weren't going to be moving over to 8th and even suggested you may rage-quit on several occasions. (In this very thread no less)
Really like the look of the the new dread, I have a soft spot for the old school washing machine and I like that they have built on that concept rather than making it too sleek and curvy. Looking forward to getting my grubby little mitts on the big rule book which is where lots of the new fluff is going to be.
I doubt we're going to see this, but if I were making Index Astartes I'd make up a whole bunch of blank chapter tactics without an assigned chapter name so as to allow for heavy customisation.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.
Lockark wrote:
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.
But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.
That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.
From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.
I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.
Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.
Honestly I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that deathstars are gone.
From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So i really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.
I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.
changemod wrote: I doubt we're going to see this, but if I were making Index Astartes I'd make up a whole bunch of blank chapter tactics without an assigned chapter name so as to allow for heavy customisation.
You mean.... Fourth Edition Space Marine Codex? With the broken trait system? I remember when I could take entire tactical squads with apothecaries and true grit and could wield a bolter in one hand and a bolt pistol as well.
Fourth Edition Space Marines were the definition of Cheese.
Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.
Honestly, I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that death stars are gone.
From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So I really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.
I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.
Essentially yes, it is what I thought as well when I first heard the news. Just more tools for the mixing pot to add more variation to player's armies and to the background mostly. Also to give a much-needed update to the lore that is both gripping and incredibly fascinating.
I don't think they will mostly due to game balance and game systems keep regular marines around, though they probably looked at how much scout squads are doing and might replace scout squads for all I know they won't and will just add the new Priamris Marines as a flat out an upgrade to regular marines. But many players might not like that option. For all we know this might be completely over our heads.
well, there's nothing inherently wrong with a trait system, just with the execution of it. I liked both the 4e traits and the old IG Doctrines systems, but there were combinations that were OP and brought the system into disrepute. That's no reason the concept cannot be revisited
Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
This is an opinion. I look at the same pictures and consider the new ones to be the problem.
It would be pretty cool though if the proportions of primaris are just scaled up normal marines (assuming they fit together in the same means). This would mean that 'theoretically' they could increase the size of the kits to match primaries proportions, such as the deathwatch and blam, primaries sized deathwatch marines.
axisofentropy wrote: I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:
FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>
They are Space Marines.
<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.
We do know they are not their own faction.
But you can still make an army consisting only of them.
Big difference.
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
That again is based on assumption. Wheres your proof other than hearsay.
They are not done, and that is your opinion and not very conclusive to what we've seen in the past.
Time to take the "are they phasing old marines out" to a new thread, we have buckets of news information, yet you still insist on gakking up this thread with off topic posting?
The Primaris "stand alone" codex sounds more like its going to be codex Space Marines vol2. I wonder if any other models in the range will follow the Redemptor and be listed as Space Marine units instead of Primaris Space Marine units?
So I'll messaged start this Facebook Round Up by covering some stuff I directly contacted the Warhammer 40,000 page about. Regular round-up follows those replies:
Replies by Warhammer 40,000 Q: Hey, Warhammer 40,000 I have a question about Power Levels. The Q&A that was released early on said that power levels are based on the unit with no upgrades, but there was a comment on this page that said they were based on the unit having all the upgrades they can take.
So which is it? I only ask because I'm watching people nerd fight on the internet over this issue and just want to give the argument the Emperor's Mercy. Thanks!
A: Hey [REDACTED] - a great question. We had a word with Simon from the rules team about this and he said:
"The Power Level represents an average somewhere in between the basic unit with the most basic loadout and the most tooled up unit of doom with all the upgrades. Basically, it's a mid-range average."
Q: Warhammer 40,000, could we have a break down how to deal with multi-damage weapons on multi-wound models, to include if any of the models have been wounded already?
A: We reckon a video on this might be the best thing to do. Watch the Warhammer TV page; we will see what we can do. e
Genestealer Cults Q: Wow, awesome.
The most isteresting part is possibly the allies section.
Will Chaos have the possibility to do this too (aka Traitor Guard)? It would be most wellcome and pretty cool.
Amazing job keeping the hype up, as allways
A: Perhaps - but not that we have seen yet...
Q: Anything on the Militarum Tempestus? We where our own faction in 7th and with that gone (outside of the start collecting box), we don't know where we stand. Will we have this question addressed before 8th is released? All we have been told is that our "armies" are still playable. Are we guardsman in carapace armor or are we scions?
A: You are definitely Scions. They are not going any where. More updates when we can give them!
Q: YES HELLO FELLOW WORSHIPPERS OF THE *cough* four-armed EMPEROR MAY I INTRODUCE YOU TO MY GOOD MENTOR GENE, PATRIARCH OF OUR ORDO? HE HAS THE MOST ENCHANTING EYES, YOU WILL FIND. *clicks claws hungrily*
A:
Spoiler:
Morty Teaser Q: Siiiiiicccck
A: Yes, he probably is and has been for a very long time...
Q: A:WE KNOW, RITE?!
Rick Teaser (Actually it's the Primaris Dread Teaser) Q: Please don't let all the ultramarines convert to primaris marines.... I would still like my normal smurfs to stay relevant in the game
A: Not at all; there will always be a place for every noble Son of Macragge. - Nick
Q: I've already signed over my wallet to the staff of GW Aberdeen to pay for 8th ed. Will you accept the parts of my soul I haven't given you yet and my next pay cheque?
A: Hmmm... we have a lot of souls already...
Q: The images on the live blog are too small to ready any of the text, just a heads up.
A: Great feedback - we will look at this
Q: ... is it just me or does anyone else think with each new dreadnought or terminator released, it takes away some of their identity. Makes them less then what they were?
A1: What if we told you that inside every Dreadnought is a Sly Marbo clone*?
A2: *I mean, that's not true. But... imagine.
Q1: Now that we have a leak of the core rules, when we getting the PDF!?
A1: On release day; the 17th June
Q2: but who KNOWS what can happen between now and then?!
A2: Haha! Who knows indeed...
Q: *cough*Timberwolf*cough*
A: Nasty cough you got there. I suspect Nurgle infection. Inquisition called.
axisofentropy wrote: I'm seeing a few peoples saying Primaris marines are their own faction. But the dataslates are unambiguous:
FACTION KEYWORDS
Imperium, Adeptus Astartes, <Chapter>
They are Space Marines.
<Chapter> is a placeholder for a faction. Presumably something like Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc, but per the FAQ, there are also new Primaris only chapters, so it's possible they do have their own faction as well. We just don't know.
We do know they are not their own faction.
But you can still make an army consisting only of them.
Big difference.
So if you do that, do you have to pick a <Chapter>? And if so, what chapters do you get to pick from? Do you think there will be any that don't exist outside of the Primaris Space Marines?
Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.
The same way they killed all WHF characters. The same way Graham McNeill managed to kill Forrix and blow up Dies Irae just in one sentence/paragraph. It's easy. They already know how to do it.
Tactical roles? Both shoot bolters - Numarines do it better. Both have jump pack units - Numarines still do it better. Both have 'heavy support' - Numarines still (almost, until they have their heavy weapon sets released) still do it better. And the now the new Dread.
I'm definitely not stating they WILL do this, but everything's possible. At least in my opinion.
There's some huge gaping holes in your argument.
a) The Warhammer Fantasy universe was rebooted to solve a sales crisis. The WHFB range was unprofitable. Age of Sigmar was a reinvention driven by a need to make the WHFB range profitable. By contrast, 40K makes up for the lion's share of GW's sales. Based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can tell you - or go one step further and chat to someone in the know - Space Marines go a step further and make up for something ridiculous like over half of ALL of GW's sales across ALL ranges. While you could argue there's a financial motivation to replace the existing range with the new range to get everyone to buy the new models, the existing range will still sell like hot-cakes so there's no good reason to phase them out.
b) The Gathering Storm and the initial 8th Edition narrative has involved exactly how many major character deaths? 0? 1? There's no reason for them to reboot the setting unlike WHFB, so killing off all the existing characters makes no sense. Besides, you'd have to find a way to do it without killing off all the Chaos/Xenos characters too.
c) You are factually incorrect about the battlefield roles. Tactical Marines can be equipped with special and heavy weapons, while Tactical Marines of certain chapters can also take chainswords. They are supposed to be versatile. Intercessors - also boltgun wielders - have zero versatility because they can only wield boltguns. Inceptors =/= Assault Marines, a quick glance at the models will inform you of that. Inceptors are mobile heavy gun wielders. They are far closer to Tau Crisis Battlesuits than they are Space Marine Assault Squads. There's also a critical difference between Devastators and the Hellblasters - Devastators cannot *all* take Heavy Weapons, meaning some members of a squad still have to use boltguns. Hellblasters follow the old Legion doctrine and so are *all* equipped with Heavy Weapons. Big difference.
d) The new Dreadnought has knees and can logically walk. The old one cannot. Ergo, =/=.
Lockark wrote:
I'm just telling you, A Black Library Author has stated it's Cannon you can turn existing marines into Numarines. He straight up said to expect some characters to get the upgrade.
I get it, but I don't really see them going so far as to do that across all their existing FW and GW Space Marine character models.
But they did leave the door wide open to slowly start phasing old Marines out.
That'd be an assumption there friend. That's one assuming that is their entry strategy, and two that a Black Library Author Confirmed it is like saying "Oh but there were addendums from the non-designers." If it did not come directly from GW itself and not some outsourced author. We cannot make those assumptions as of yet. We have no idea if marines will be phased out. Hell, we don't even know what they are doing with Primaris Marines. Maybe they felt they needed to add more variety to armies and 40k lists. Because space marine lists are often quite similar to add more variety and character differences would be a welcome addition.
From all we know, there is a possibility that this just a new unit.
I would reserve those comments until after the entire edition and all lore pertaining is FULLY released before making such comments.
Also, getting rid of regular marines would likely be pretty terrible for the game as far as balance goes.
Honestly I'm not even sure that the Primaris will be that good for how much they cost. Typically MSU > elite units, especially now that deathstars are gone.
From what we've seen so far, the Primaris cost a lot, aren't that durable even with two wounds, and (though this might change once we get actual Primaris kits) don't have a lot of variety in weapon options. So i really don't see them replacing normal marines at all from a balance standpoint.
I think GW is just adding another set of options to the Space Marine armies / sell some more models.
Navy phased out is the wrong word. They might not get squated but I could see the range beginning the slow March into legacy units.
ClockworkZion wrote: Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.
Exactly. I only said it was possible that there would be new ones because of what GW said in the Primaris FAQ. "Most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines"
ClockworkZion wrote: Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.
Exactly. I only said it was possible that there would be new ones because of what GW said in the Primaris FAQ. "Most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines"
Right, but those will likely follow existing successor chapter rules: pick your parent chapter, that's you're keyword.
Gamgee wrote: Excellent. Might have to grab both xenos if they have fluff. That way I can see if the DE got any cool new tidbits.
I thought you said you were going over to Age Of Sigmar? Weren't going to be moving over to 8th and even suggested you may rage-quit on several occasions. (In this very thread no less)
Really like the look of the the new dread, I have a soft spot for the old school washing machine and I like that they have built on that concept rather than making it too sleek and curvy. Looking forward to getting my grubby little mitts on the big rule book which is where lots of the new fluff is going to be.
My flgs is playing Tau again. So I have motivation to play again. Also the core rules have mostly been excellent. The fluff marines were the big problem but now that they can just be upgraded it removes that issue for me. My only concern left is I hope the Tau are as fairly balanced as other factions and not toned down too much. Also hope for de buffs.
Edit
Still am planning on Kharadron army as well. Too cool to pass up. That and beastclaw.
Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.
Cergorach wrote: Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?
Pretty sure it works like it does now: unless you rolled a 1 the second time, it's negated.
Cergorach wrote: Question: The new plasmagun overcharged removes the model on a to hit roll of 1, but the captain allows units to reroll all 1s to hit within 6". Does the 1 still count for removing the model? Or is it negated due to the reroll?
Negating the original roll is the entire point of a re-roll. The first roll never happened. Unless this is going to be the very first edition of any GW game I've ever heard of to handle them differently….
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.
I'm too going to buy normal marines to my Dark Angels army. Ok, they look very cartoonish now in comparison, but they are still pretty good models with a very good range and very good desings!
Spoiler:
And if I change of idea ... is very easy to fix...
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.
I'm too going to buy normal marines to my Dark Angels army. Ok, they look very cartoonish now in comparison, but they are still pretty good models with a very good range and very good desings!
Spoiler:
And if I change of idea ... is very easy to fix...
I love that style. It's a table top game that represents cheesy sci_fi fantasy! It's why I love Orks and OOP marines.
ClockworkZion wrote: Chapters are a subfaction of Astartes and will be the limiting factor for rules like Chapter Tactics (like preventing the Bark Star). They don't denote whole new factions just because they're subfactions. By that logic each of the vanilla chapters would be new factions just because they're not Ultramarines.
Exactly. I only said it was possible that there would be new ones because of what GW said in the Primaris FAQ. "Most excitingly, Guilliman has founded some entirely new Chapters out of these new Space Marines"
Right, but those will likely follow existing successor chapter rules: pick your parent chapter, that's you're keyword.
Yes i agree that I think that is likely, but we don't know for sure. For all we know they will come out with a <Chapter> only available to Primaris Marines with it's own rules.
All I initially said is that it was possible based on the information we currently have, and we have no way to know for sure.
Did I missed something, or negative effect for firing through an intervening unit disappeared ?
There isn't anything in the core rules. Cover seems to only come from terrain, not intervening units. We seem to be moving away from a pure TLOS system.
Well I think it was obvious that Primaris marines are going to be one of the first codexes released, ofc the new toys will be supported with a new book. But that doesn't make them their own faction - faction keywords are what matter in 8th, not which book the rules are in. And we've already seen that they do not have their own faction keyword.
They do have their own normal keyword tho so there is scope for primaris only chapter traits in a future codex - "this chapter may only select units with the Primaris keyword" and it fits fluff wise for a chapter from the new founding.
I agree. I love Dreadnoughts. I hope he has good weapons. He definitely seems to be bristling with them. Two of them going to my Crimson Fists should be good enough for now. A Furioso Redemptor Dreadnought would be a welcome addition to my Blood Angels. All of my unbuilt Venerable Dreadnought kits will become Deathwatch, since it sounds like Deathwatch are not getting Primaris Marines, so they will fit better there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MaxT wrote: Well I think it was obvious that Primaris marines are going to be one of the first codexes released, ofc the new toys will be supported with a new book. But that doesn't make them their own faction - faction keywords are what matter in 8th, not which book the rules are in. And we've already seen that they do not have their own faction keyword.
They do have their own normal keyword tho so there is scope for primaris only chapter traits in a future codex - "this chapter may only select units with the Primaris keyword" and it fits fluff wise for a chapter from the new founding.
They are probably going to be in the Space Marines Codex. It won't just be Primaris Marines.
MaxT wrote: Well I think it was obvious that Primaris marines are going to be one of the first codexes released, ofc the new toys will be supported with a new book. But that doesn't make them their own faction - faction keywords are what matter in 8th, not which book the rules are in. And we've already seen that they do not have their own faction keyword.
They do have their own normal keyword tho so there is scope for primaris only chapter traits in a future codex - "this chapter may only select units with the Primaris keyword" and it fits fluff wise for a chapter from the new founding.
They are Faction "<Chapter>" which presumably means there is going to be a list of sub-factions that count as that, and you have to choose one.
All GW would have to do is make a new <Chapter> Faction that doesn't have any regular marines as options. Then you would have to take Primaris Marines / whatever vehicles / other units were in it. It really is as simple as that.
I personally am not sure I think it'll happen, but it is definitely something they COULD do.
Apologies if this has been posted, but a user on B&C said thisabout 'And They Shall Know No Fear' (from WarhammerFest):
And they shall know no fear is a reroll of battleshock. Robin confirmed today.
This seems pretty elegant IMO and not too OP. Looking forward to an over-cocky Primaris opponent rerolling 1 or 2 casualties and ending up with more.
This ability will be pretty powerful for objective holding though, now that it's all about who has the most models within 3". It could make or break a game.
Rubenite wrote: Apologies if this has been posted, but a user on B&C said thisabout 'And They Shall Know No Fear' (from WarhammerFest):
And they shall know no fear is a reroll of battleshock. Robin confirmed today.
This seems pretty elegant IMO and not too OP. Looking forward to an over-cocky Primaris opponent rerolling 1 or 2 casualties and ending up with more.
This ability will be pretty powerful for objective holding though, now that it's all about who has the most models within 3". It could make or break a game.
I feel like this is actually perfect. A real risk-reward system for Marines and preventing them from just outright ignoring the Battleshock system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I want to point out that since Bolters use rocket propelled ammo....you know, like the gyrojet....there shouldn't be any recoil....
Also I want to point out that since Bolters use rocket propelled ammo....you know, like the gyrojet....there shouldn't be any recoil....
If that were true Bolters simply wouldn't work as they would lack any significant initial velocity. But as Bolters are actually functional weapons, that means that the ammo has a very high acceleration inside the weapon, which means there will be recoil.
Really disappointed about The individual point cost for upgrades.. I really thought we were going to move to age of sigmar type of whole units with different abilities.
Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Really disappointed about The individual point cost for upgrades.. I really thought we were going to move to age of sigmar type of whole units with different abilities.
If that's what you want, then just use the power levels. That's exactly what you describe.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Noticed that as well. The plague marines are outnumbered and the pox walkers don't really contribute due to their slow movement and lack of shooting. The flying units match up fairly decently, but unless the sorcerer is really strong and the standard bearer can improve the pox walkers movement, it should be easy for a primaris player with a basic grasp of target priority to use their superior range and firepower to win.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Death guard have a sorcerer and a terminator chaos lord. The pramaris have nobway to deny the witch. The Death gaurd also have a +2 save melee beast charater. If he makes contact they don't really have much in the way of melee to defend themselves. These two guys probably carries the death guard force.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Really disappointed about The individual point cost for upgrades.. I really thought we were going to move to age of sigmar type of whole units with different abilities.
If that's what you want, then just use the power levels. That's exactly what you describe.
Anyone still going to argue Numarines are not using tau tech with the obvius Ghostkeel-based adaptation in this dude? the main gun is practically a Cyclic Ion Raker.
Ghostkeel?...
More Like...
At least Ed209 looks Good, that Primaris Dread?, looks stupid as hell, darn, they managed to make an uglier Dread then the old one...
Also I want to point out that since Bolters use rocket propelled ammo....you know, like the gyrojet....there shouldn't be any recoil....
If that were true Bolters simply wouldn't work as they would lack any significant initial velocity. But as Bolters are actually functional weapons, that means that the ammo has a very high acceleration inside the weapon, which means there will be recoil.
Gyrojets have velocity to leave the barrel, problem is they have horrible accuracy. They're a real thing. Go google it, they,re kinda neat.
What you're suggesting is the bolt is a two stage weapon. Stage one is a charge to launch the round and ignite a primer in the round which accelerates and likely arms the explosive core of the bolt.....which would decrease the accuracy of the bolt.
And it,s not like you need a massive amount of force to kick a bolt out of the barrel, or even starting it down the barrel and igniting the rocket in one go. There really isn't a reason for the weapon to kick when using rocket propelled rounds.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.
So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?
With the 3-6 Heavy support Spearhead detachment, I'm not sure if tank company needs to exist anymore? You just only get 1 CP per detachment is the downside. Maby the same with the Dread Mod and SM siege army?
I don't remember if IG have a tank commander option in their native rules, but Marines certainly had different options in their siege list beyond different ratios and I'm pretty sure the dread mob did, too.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.
So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?
With the 3-6 Heavy support Spearhead detachment, I'm not sure if tank company needs to exist anymore? You just only get 1 CP per detachment is the downside. Maby the same with the Dread Mod and SM siege army?
I don't remember if IG have a tank commander option in their native rules, but Marines certainly had different options in their siege list beyond different ratios and I'm pretty sure the dread mob did, too.
Guard have a Tank Character named Pask and a generic Russ HQ choice.
Anyone still going to argue Numarines are not using tau tech with the obvius Ghostkeel-based adaptation in this dude? the main gun is practically a Cyclic Ion Raker.
Ghostkeel?...
More Like...
Spoiler:
At least Ed209 looks Good, that Primaris Dread?, looks stupid as hell, darn, they managed to make an uglier Dread then the old one...
I disagree. It looks like a boxier version of the Contemptor, and is fine in my book as long as no child can hack them to be "as loyal as a puppy".
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
To be honest, I agree. I assumed the death guards will have two wounds, so before I tought it could be balanced. Maybe the "Disgusting resilient" everything has can do the trick? And the Chaos Lord, that is a complete beast in meele, with help of the sorcerer. But as every starter I expect an advantage to the Space Marine side.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
To be honest, I agree. I assumed the death guards will have two wounds, so before I tought it could be balanced. Maybe the "Disgusting resilient" everything has can do the trick? And the Chaos Lord, that is a complete beast in meele, with help of the sorcerer. But as every starter I expect an advantage to the Space Marine side.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
To be honest, I agree. I assumed the death guards will have two wounds, so before I tought it could be balanced. Maybe the "Disgusting resilient" everything has can do the trick? And the Chaos Lord, that is a complete beast in meele, with help of the sorcerer. But as every starter I expect an advantage to the Space Marine side.
Assumed wrong, Plague Marines are 1 wound.
Profiles up on community website on Warhammer fest live blog
Edit: oh misread your post.
I assumed they would have as well.
If there's anyone here who played the demo game they had today, would you be able to confirm what "And they Shall Know No Fear" and "Death to the False Emperor" do?
The Redemptor is just a fusion of the Contemptor and Casteferrum pattern Dreadnoughts. They have the legs of a Contemptor with the torso of a Casteferrum. In my opinion, it is downright perfect. As for the weapon, again, the tanks at the bottom are present on the Venerable Dreadnought as well. Is the argument that the Venerable Dreadnought is copying the Tau?
At any rate, hopefully the Redemptor has atomatic shielding of some sort. I am also looking forward to additional weapon options. Though does it really need another chaingun?
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: If there's anyone here who played the demo game they had today, would you be able to confirm what "And they Shall Know No Fear" and "Death to the False Emperor" do?
B&C said ATSKNF lets you reroll Battleshock tests.
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: If there's anyone here who played the demo game they had today, would you be able to confirm what "And they Shall Know No Fear" and "Death to the False Emperor" do?
B&C said ATSKNF lets you reroll Battleshock tests.
According to a post yesterday, "Death to the False Emperor" is an extra melee attack on a 6 to hit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The Redemptor is just a fusion of the Contemptor and Casteferrum pattern Dreadnoughts. They have the legs of a Contemptor with the torso of a Casteferrum. In my opinion, it is downright perfect. As for the weapon, again, the tanks at the bottom are present on the Venerable Dreadnought as well. Is the argument that the Venerable Dreadnought is copying the Tau?
At any rate, hopefully the Redemptor has atomatic shielding of some sort. I am also looking forward to additional weapon options. Though does it really need another chaingun?
Clearly everything is copying Tau. Even technology that is older than their entire race.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
To be honest, I agree. I assumed the death guards will have two wounds, so before I tought it could be balanced. Maybe the "Disgusting resilient" everything has can do the trick? And the Chaos Lord, that is a complete beast in meele, with help of the sorcerer. But as every starter I expect an advantage to the Space Marine side.
T5 and DR might balance them out a bit.
Prioritise removal of the plague marines via your bolt rifles and the bloat drone through inceptors, whilst plasma supports whichever group is doing worse. Hunt down the sorcerer next, all whilst keeping out of the range of the 4 inch move assault troops.
At this point your opponent should have ran out of tactical options, and you can clear out the poxwalkers and remaining characters from a safe distance at your leisure. You'll take some casualties, but through superior range and wound count plus not having to worry about half the opposing army there's not much issue I can see.
Gyrojets have velocity to leave the barrel, problem is they have horrible accuracy. They're a real thing. Go google it, they,re kinda neat.
What you're suggesting is the bolt is a two stage weapon. Stage one is a charge to launch the round and ignite a primer in the round which accelerates and likely arms the explosive core of the bolt.....which would decrease the accuracy of the bolt.
And it,s not like you need a massive amount of force to kick a bolt out of the barrel, or even starting it down the barrel and igniting the rocket in one go. There really isn't a reason for the weapon to kick when using rocket propelled rounds.
Gyrojets still have recoil, they reduce it but it still is there, and the ammunition of a bolter is far larger than a gyrojet, so it will have a far greater recoil than those.
In addition, without the two stage system they would be worse short range, which wouldn't fit the setting.
What you're suggesting is the bolt is a two stage weapon. Stage one is a charge to launch the round and ignite a primer in the round which accelerates and likely arms the explosive core of the bolt.....which would decrease the accuracy of the bolt.
It has always been described as such in any document that gets more explicit about how bolters work than "rockets, lol" - indeed the contrast with gyrojets is made clear when you consider Stalker pattern silenced bolts which explicitly are gyrojet-type slow launch projectiles.
I'm not sure how being two-stage would automatically decrease accuracy though? You seem to treat it as an obvious and insurmountable side effect which doesn't really tally. One would just have to have extremely strict manufacturing tolerances for both propellant and shell, of the sort that you really wouldn't normally see in a line infantryman's weapon. But, then, Space Marines really aren't line infantry, are they?
What you're suggesting is the bolt is a two stage weapon. Stage one is a charge to launch the round and ignite a primer in the round which accelerates and likely arms the explosive core of the bolt.....which would decrease the accuracy of the bolt.
It has always been described as such in any document that gets more explicit about how bolters work than "rockets, lol" - indeed the contrast with gyrojets is made clear when you consider Stalker pattern silenced bolts which explicitly are gyrojet-type slow launch projectiles.
I'm not sure how being two-stage would automatically decrease accuracy though? You seem to treat it as an obvious and insurmountable side effect which doesn't really tally. One would just have to have extremely strict manufacturing tolerances for both propellant and shell, of the sort that you really wouldn't normally see in a line infantryman's weapon. But, then, Space Marines really aren't line infantry, are they?
Bullet spin for a slower moving round would be different for a faster moving round (for example the 5.56mm the M16/M4 series uses a 1:7" right hand twist. For every 7" of travel it makes a complete rotation along the long centeral axis of the round) Taking a slow moving round and then suddenly making it go faster would make the round wobble and throw it off course.
Then again physics in 40k seem to work differently since you can apparently drop in from high orbit just by strapping rockets to your head and feet....
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
I wish to know more because this sounds interesting.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Hmm, think I can live without any Primaris marines, they really do make regulars look a bit derpy.
So... anyone able to confirm/ask what if any FW lists are making it into those IA books? Ex:
Eldar Corsairs
Tyrant's Legion
IG/AM tank company
Ork dread mob(or something like that?)
the variations on krieg/renegade/elysian lists?
SM siege army (or w/e it's called)
...maybe I'm missing some?
With the 3-6 Heavy support Spearhead detachment, I'm not sure if tank company needs to exist anymore? You just only get 1 CP per detachment is the downside. Maby the same with the Dread Mod and SM siege army?
I don't remember if IG have a tank commander option in their native rules, but Marines certainly had different options in their siege list beyond different ratios and I'm pretty sure the dread mob did, too.
As stated the ig have a tank commander, but the options between bit and the fw one were different.
What I sort of mean is at this point fw could just make a lot of this lists unquie units/options open to everyone instead of as a list.
Alot of them were even open to the normal lists with the same book. The list was just a different way to take them.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
Look how small that table is though.
If you have a proper terrain set up, Death Guard has a good chance.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
This implies that a large number of players are running their primaris captain into the chaos lord for a duel, when a glance at the profiles would suggest what you really want to do is have him camp in the middle of your gunline to buff their shooting and only move in on mop up duty.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
I wish to know more because this sounds interesting.
Just watching the videos of the interviews and most games at the time were being won by choas.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
This implies that a large number of players are running their primaris captain into the chaos lord for a duel, when a glance at the profiles would suggest what you really want to do is have him camp in the middle of your gunline to buff their shooting and only move in on mop up duty.
Yeah i would'nt move my captain from my hellblasters all game.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
Look how small that table is though.
If you have a proper terrain set up, Death Guard has a good chance.
I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
At least you got one in your lifespan...
Poor SoB.
Sisters kinda got some spotlight in Gathering Storm....well more than normal at least.
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
Indeed. I look forward to the Orkmaris releases when we get the Nids vs Orks campaign though.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
I wish to know more because this sounds interesting.
Here mate, brought to you by the Lord Of Layers, Duncan Rhodes!
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
At least you got one in your lifespan...
Poor SoB.
Sisters kinda got some spotlight in Gathering Storm....well more than normal at least.
Yeah...a literally infinite increase in representation and space marines still tripled us in the end.
Rippy wrote: I have watched that Mortarion "Angel of Nurgle" video about 10 times.
I can't describe the feeling of having your beloved faction being the focus!
And the feeling of knowing it will probably be the last time in my lifespan.....
At least you got one in your lifespan...
Poor SoB.
Sisters kinda got some spotlight in Gathering Storm....well more than normal at least.
Yeah...a literally infinite increase in representation and space marines still tripled us in the end.
Hence "some" spotlight.
At least Celestine got her own model teaser video?
I like the new dread. Keeps the same style, but with some improvements to the legs and a slightly more organic form.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am also a bit surprised they didn't just give Plague Marines two wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose having two wounds is a Restarties bespoke rule, so nurgle had to get something else. Although with the disgusting thing, you might theoretically save 10 wounds in a row.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
To be honest, I agree. I assumed the death guards will have two wounds, so before I tought it could be balanced. Maybe the "Disgusting resilient" everything has can do the trick? And the Chaos Lord, that is a complete beast in meele, with help of the sorcerer. But as every starter I expect an advantage to the Space Marine side.
T5 and DR might balance them out a bit.
Hellblasters are the only unit that scares the drone and the lord. I'd run the drone up the side to try and draw them away. Of course the captain should go with them.
Then i'd drop in the Lord behind and squeeze them on both sides by running everything up as fast as possible. The lord can take over 240 bolter shots. Of course if they decide to remain close together then everything will converge on them all at once.
I'd keep my plasma gun supercharge at bay until i'm at rapid fire range. A couple decent set of rolls would see two full marines dead.
Tyel wrote: Its just theory and whining about it this early seems a bit pointless, but based on the revealed profiles I don't see how the Death Guard starter has a hope against the Primaris starter unless the characters do the heavy lifting.
Have you seen the test games at warhammer fest? Chaos is owning most tables. The Chaos lord whups the Primaris Captain.
I wish to know more because this sounds interesting.
Its not that surprising, look at the Nurgle Lord rules and weapon and look at the Smurf captain...
It makes perfect sense for Heretic Astartes to only have 1W, even the ones dedicated to a Chaos god. Afterall, they are still former Loyalists and should be a dark reflection of Heresy era Marines.
Primaris Marines are something new and have been designed to be Marines 2.0. Heretics are still Marines 1.0
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
We can't all be space marines... sorry, Primaris Space Marines. Normal Space Marines are joining the rest of us in the "neglected" club
The dreadnought is pretty awesome, I hope it comes with at least a few weapon options. 100% dreading seeing the pricetag though. Are those other marines alongside it from the multi part kit? The posing looks slightly different than the bolter wielding ones from the starter. I was really hoping they would fit in some slight variation into the armor style...just like how mk IV originally had some subtle differences.
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
Tyranids?
Their model range is among the largest ones, and it is pure plastic.
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
Tyranids?
Their model range is among the largest ones, and it is pure plastic.
I just want a better picture of those demon rules and psychic powers.
I can make out a 5+ invul for all demons with demonic rule and tzeentch giving them a +1 while nurgle gets the new fnp but I cant quite make out the khorne and slaanesh rules or any of the spells
> Daemonic: 5+ Invulnerable/
> Unstoppable Frenzy (Khorne): +1S/A if they charge or are charged.
> Ethereal Form (Tzeentch): +1 Invulnerable Save
> Quicksilver Swiftness (Slaanesh): Daemons with this ability always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they were charged. If the unit is charged by or charges another unit with a similar ability, the unit that charged fights first.
Also I think Daemonic Ritual is Deep Strike, but similar to how it was for Daemons in 4th/5th edition. Except rather than it being half your force that comes on at one time it's based on Keywords? It's really hard to read though (and my eyes were already strained from the special rules) so I could be completely wrong about that.
> Daemonic: 5+ Invulnerable/
> Unstoppable Frenzy (Khorne): +1S/A if they charge or are charged.
> Ethereal Form (Tzeentch): +1 Invulnerable Save
> Quicksilver Swiftness (Slaanesh): Daemons with this ability always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they were charged. If the unit is charged by or charges another unit with a similar ability, the unit that charged fights first.
Also I think Daemonic Ritual is Deep Strike, but similar to how it was for Daemons in 4th/5th edition. Except rather than it being half your force that comes on at one time it's based on Keywords? It's really hard to read though (and my eyes were already strained from the special rules) so I could be completely wrong about that.
Aka pretty much everything we already know since 2 weeks ago~
At least there's confirmation that Quicksilver Swiftness cancels out with similar abilities, though (Some people were jumping ahead of what we knew and inferring that the game breaks when such a thing would occur, or something equally as wild).
I should say though, there is more to Quicksilver Swiftness that I can't read. I'd hazard a guess it explains what to do if neither unit charged this turn.
Based on the Sprue pictures for the Primaris Marines, the heads are separate pieces from the bodies, as are the chest pieces and the arms. So what that translates to me is that I should have an easier time placing the helmets on the waists on the heads where they belong.
I can't really tell if there are two duplicate sprues (One Inceptors, two Intercessor, and two Hellblaster on each Sprue), but it certainly seems that way. The third Sprue has the Captain, both LTs, the Ancient, and all the Sergeants on it.
Edit: NM, there are four sprues, so there is probably some more variation than that.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I should say though, there is more to Quicksilver Swiftness that I can't read. I'd hazard a guess it explains what to do if neither unit charged this turn.
unless it IS further fleshed out, my reading of that would be that Slaaneshi daemons now effectively 'charge' every turn; i.e. they ALWAYS go first.
Edit: just to flesh it out a bit:
1. Any always-strikes-first chargers from non-slaaneshi player.
2. Any models with Quicksilver Swiftness.
3. Any other chargers from non-slaaneshi player.
4. Alternate combats as usual.
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
Tyranids?
Their model range is among the largest ones, and it is pure plastic.
Well, almost pure plastic.
*looks at Pyrovores, Biovores and Lictors*
Red Terror, Deathleaper and Spore Mines Cluster. All resin too
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I should say though, there is more to Quicksilver Swiftness that I can't read. I'd hazard a guess it explains what to do if neither unit charged this turn.
unless it IS further fleshed out, my reading of that would be that Slaaneshi daemons now effectively 'charge' every turn; i.e. they ALWAYS go first.
TBH that is kinda CRAZY powerful if true. If you made a pure slaaneshi deamon army, you just get to swing everything before your enemy in both phases unless he spends CP's to give a unit strike 1st to mute the two rules out.
Considering Slaanesh stuff has such a glass jaw, It's probably balanced for the most part. It's if Emperor Children Marines get a rule like that (In the same way all nurgle stuff gets the disgustingly resilient)
After straining my eyes again, I *think* the full wording is something like:
Quicksilver Swiftness: Daemons with this ability always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy unit which you have charged also has a similar ability, then alternate choosing which unit to fight with starting with the player whose unit had charged first.
I'm not confident about that last part still. I'd also find it a bit odd (but not out of the norm for GW) if the rule really doesn't mention what to do if 2 units with similar abilities are locked in combat and neither charged, but I'm quite confident about the rest of it so *shrug*.
Technically it's even more powerful then, because if none of your units charged this turn and your Slaanesh Daemons are all in combat, you opponent can't use the Stratagem you mentioned Lockark, as no units charged (and yet all the Slaanesh Daemons still get to fight first).
The new blue, Ultramarines chapter shown on the right side is the Fulminators, it looks like. The Dark Angels successor is the Blades of Vengeance. The white Marines are the Storm Reapers, who are White Scar successors. They have got to be the least inspiring successors ever. Their color schemes are damn near 100% the same as their parent chapter.
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
Tyranids?
Their model range is among the largest ones, and it is pure plastic.
Well, almost pure plastic.
*looks at Pyrovores, Biovores and Lictors*
Red Terror, Deathleaper and Spore Mines Cluster. All resin too
Yeah... I love most of the primaris stuff, and I like the old boxy dreads, but that new dread...I'm not a fan. The stuff on the 'chest is too much, it would be better just with a plain sarcophagus (I wonder if there is complete one underneath?) And as the upper body is so massive, the legs look scrawny, and that is not helped by how the knees are bent like they were bucking under the weight. I think it wound be greatly improved by having the legs straight in a solid pose and adding some extra armour on shins to bulk the legs up.
Call me a Loyalist, though I think I am going to leave the Nurgle mark off the top of the Lord of Contagion, and trim off the other flame ball as well.
I haven't seen a paint job yet that doesn't that fake smoke/flame justice, and I am nowhere near as good a painter as the dudes who work for GW.
Crimson wrote: Yeah... I love most of the primaris stuff, and I like the old boxy dreads, but that new dread...I'm not a fan. The stuff on the 'chest is too much, it would be better just with a plain sarcophagus (I wonder if there is complete one underneath?) And as the upper body is so massive, the legs look scrawny, and that is not helped by how the knees are bent like they were bucking under the weight. I think it wound be greatly improved by having the legs straight in a solid pose and adding some extra armour on shins to bulk the legs up.
I am hoping for a variation with an exposed sarcophagus like the Venerable Dreadnought. The way the front plates only cover part of the traditional sarcophagus makes that almost seem likely. And if not, it will probably be easy enough to modify it to be that way.
I think the stumpy legs are largely a result of the perspective of the camera. We don't have any real dead-on pictures of it.
I don't like the dread. Looks awkward, and not in a deliberate way . Even the assault cannon doesn't look right. The size is the only positive, older dreads are tiny. Still: Angry, stompy dishwashers 4 life.
I really like the nuMarines in other colours, though (except the bolt riflea, I love the stubby look of regular bolters).
PS: Why put tbe new starter up on the site but without a preorder option and no 360 shots?
Binabik15 wrote: I don't like the dread. Looks awkward, and not in a deliberate way . Even the assault cannon doesn't look right. The size is the only positive, older dreads are tiny. Still: Angry, stompy dishwashers 4 life.
I really like the nuMarines in other colours, though (except the bolt riflea, I love the stubby look of regular bolters).
PS: Why put tbe new starter up on the site but without a preorder option and no 360 shots?
The starter isn't on the site, there's a bit on the front page that links to the news article on warhammer Community but that's all.
Well, with the release of the Primaris Marines I guess that GW will make larger tanks and transports for them which may become standard in the Imperium.
I zoomed right in, looks like a new-scale predator to me
Huh. Looks more like a LR variant to me. The position of the lights, the hull-mounted Heavy Bolters (look sorta Mk II-ish)...plus it's shown with normal SM near it.
But it's got some sort of turret on it...a demolisher?
Galas wrote: Being a non Space Marine army and seeing a big release for your faction is like watching the Halley Comet
The Dark Eldar got a pretty HUGE release… just before being neglected again. Though not as neglected as Sisters, they still got some few new release and some printed, translated dex…
Yeah , thats what I was saying. Normally factions receive a big release like that once in a lifetime (Sometimes is just enough. Revamp the faction and add some kits every year).
Tyranids?
Their model range is among the largest ones, and it is pure plastic.
Well, almost pure plastic.
*looks at Pyrovores, Biovores and Lictors*
Red Terror, Deathleaper and Spore Mines Cluster. All resin too
Plastic Spore Mines exist.
I know, but are they not only available with models? Separate ones are resin only if I am not wrong.
For a fair comparison, have an ultramarines coloured one:
The issue is limb proportion to torso proportion, especially the legs. The legs on the Redemptor look frail, and the knee pads stick out oddly. Arms also look like they weren't really designed for the same mech as the body they've been welded to.
Due to the completely different torsos the Redemptor and the Leviathan are going for wildly different looks, which will come down to personal taste. I think the leviathan pulls off a cohesive design better through.
The Librarian pictured is just the Terminator Librarian kit from a couple years ago.
The tank looks like it has the Land Raiders body, but with all sorts of different additions to it. Probably a whole different top and front piece. A turret on the top makes it basically the fusion of a Land Raider and Razorback.
That makes me very worried that Primaris Marines will not be able to ride in a Rhino.
That looks like a plus sized Razorback that randomly has a bunch of extra guns on it because everything has a bunch of extra guns on it nowadays and Land Raiders cry themselves to sleep every night.
lord_blackfang wrote: That looks like a plus sized Razorback that randomly has a bunch of extra guns on it because everything has a bunch of extra guns on it nowadays and Land Raiders cry themselves to sleep every night.
Yeah, I see 2 guns. A storm bolter or similar on the hull, and something on top.
Just like a razorback or predator CAN take now. Oh, they can take a one shot missile launcher, too.
Land raiders get 2 sponsons that each shoot 2 lascannon, a hull mounted, 6 shot heavy bolter, and can add a pintle-mounted Multimelta. They're not having problems sleeping from shot envy...
Edit: spell check changed pintle to pointless, which isn't inaccurate. I always roll a 1 with the damn thing
lord_blackfang wrote: That looks like a plus sized Razorback that randomly has a bunch of extra guns on it because everything has a bunch of extra guns on it nowadays and Land Raiders cry themselves to sleep every night.
lord_blackfang wrote: That looks like a plus sized Razorback that randomly has a bunch of extra guns on it because everything has a bunch of extra guns on it nowadays and Land Raiders cry themselves to sleep every night.
Would you prefer a tank with bolter as a turret weapon?
Crimson wrote: Seriously, just look at those pics of old marines next to the primaris. The old marines are done; 99% of customers will not buy them if they can get way cooler looking primaris.
As someone building a MkIV space marine army, I can safely say I'll be buying more MkIV marines. Because I like MkIV space marines.
And since new ones look oversized next to them won't buy new ones ever. I would need lottery jackpot to replace old ones so it's buy old ones or none.
New ones aren't that great i feel replacing hundreds. Plus they aren't in hh marks. Hh is currently gw's best game i will concentrate at
).
Kell has its own model, so I think he DOES count.
they are beautiful.
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