I guess I am not seeing the same thing. on his page it looks like he may take a storm shield without replacing anything(but cost), Then the Terminator part comes in where he replaces specific gear to get the terminator armor. Is that not how it works? confused.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I missing something or is there no reason whatsoever to take any of the other Kill Teams beyond the Aquila Kill Team?
My thoughts as well. I've got a couple planned out. One is the missile launcher squad someone mentioned earlier in the thread, and the second is similar but with stalker bolters on the vets for sniping special ammo. It's probably going to be worse than I think it is, but let's hunt some xenos with it anyway! I don't want to drop a load of money kitting out a frag cannon drop team, but I also really do want a frag cannon drop team.
The other Kill Teams are going to be kind of meta-dependent, I think. Aquila is very TAC and the most customizable.
conker249 wrote: I guess I am not seeing the same thing. on his page it looks like he may take a storm shield without replacing anything(but cost), Then the Terminator part comes in where he replaces specific gear to get the terminator armor. Is that not how it works? confused.
Do you then think you can give him a termi armour and a jump pack too?
watch team crull is unique veteran squad and captain has hatred
Watch team galateal is unique vanguard vet squad and captain has precision strike
Venerable dread nihilus is unique and has 6+ invul and 5+ invul vs witch fire powers.
The detschment combines both Squads if you want and Artemis and everyone can have hatred, reroll wounds and pen results of 1, precision strike, fnp, reroll charge and ignore disorder charge from heroic intervention and Artemis's fearless.
I haven't added the costs of the preset weapons on the units to see if it's discounted like the harley troupes.
Seems ok the named dreadnaut is a good venerable dread replacement.
And Artemis is very good
Weapon loadouts are mixed but the vanguard vets is a decent assault loadout
gungo wrote: watch team crull is unique veteran squad and captain has hatred
Watch team galateal is unique vanguard vet squad and captain has precision strike
Venerable dread nihilus is unique and has 6+ invul and 5+ invul vs witch fire powers.
The detschment combines both Squads if you want and Artemis and everyone can have hatred, reroll wounds and pen results of 1, precision strike, fnp, reroll charge and ignore disorder charge from heroic intervention and Artemis's fearless.
I haven't added the costs of the preset weapons on the units to see if it's discounted like the harley troupes.
Seems ok the named dreadnaut is a good venerable dread replacement.
And Artemis is very good
Weapon loadouts are mixed but the vanguard vets is a decent assault loadout
Thanks for that, was wondering how long it would be until someone had the info.
Not very good formation bonuses though imo(when considering the limits required), which is good so I don't have to model and equip them like GW wants
casvalremdeikun wrote: Am I missing something or is there no reason whatsoever to take any of the other Kill Teams beyond the Aquila Kill Team?
My thoughts as well. I've got a couple planned out. One is the missile launcher squad someone mentioned earlier in the thread, and the second is similar but with stalker bolters on the vets for sniping special ammo. It's probably going to be worse than I think it is, but let's hunt some xenos with it anyway! I don't want to drop a load of money kitting out a frag cannon drop team, but I also really do want a frag cannon drop team.
The other Kill Teams are going to be kind of meta-dependent, I think. Aquila is very TAC and the most customizable.
The HS killing could be viable alternative. Reroll to penetration is quite a bit handier than reroll 1 to penetrate against heavier armour and that's a lot of HS.
Also against Tau the elite killing could be handy depending on your weapons.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Except for the plasma pistol, I like the Vanguard vet squad loadout.
Yea I like the venerable dread, vanguard squad, Artemis
The regular vet squad is blah so kinda a tax
The detschment bonus of reroll 1 to wound and pen, and fnp 6+ within 6in of Artemis is ok however prolly not worth the vet tax unless the vet squad and the vanguard vet squad have a standard loadout discount on points like the Harley units.
Even precision strikes is great with the leaders powersword vs units that bubble wrap thier ICs, however precision strike with heavy thunder hammers are better in the detschment. So this named unit will probably see some use beyond this detschment.
Edit: just checked the named vanguard vet squad with standard loadout pays 10pts for a character with +1 wound, precision strike, and the unit entry has the deepstrike rule whereas the vanguard vet squad doesn't but they are both jump pack units so I don't know why the difference.
The standard vet squad is normal loadout price but you get a character with +1 wound and hatred for free. However the loadout isn't optimal.
The veterans can all take shotguns at no cost. I fully intend to use two naked squads of them with deep strike, thanks to the Black Spear, in my 1850 List.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Except for the plasma pistol, I like the Vanguard vet squad loadout.
Yea I like the venerable dread, vanguard squad, Artemis
The regular vet squad is blah so kinda a tax
The detschment bonus of reroll 1 to wound and pen, and fnp 6+ within 6in of Artemis is ok however prolly not worth the vet tax unless the vet squad and the vanguard vet squad have a standard loadout discount on points like the Harley units.
Even precision strikes is great with the leaders powersword vs units that bubble wrap thier ICs, however precision strike with heavy thunder hammers are better in the detschment. So this named unit will probably see some use beyond this detschment.
Edit: just checked the named vanguard vet squad with standard loadout pays 10pts for a character with +1 wound, precision strike, and the unit entry has the deepstrike rule whereas the vanguard vet squad doesn't but they are both jump pack units so I don't know why the difference.
Difference is only if they form a kill team I think, as deep strike would then confer to the entire squad.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Except for the plasma pistol, I like the Vanguard vet squad loadout.
Yea I like the venerable dread, vanguard squad, Artemis
The regular vet squad is blah so kinda a tax
The detschment bonus of reroll 1 to wound and pen, and fnp 6+ within 6in of Artemis is ok however prolly not worth the vet tax unless the vet squad and the vanguard vet squad have a standard loadout discount on points like the Harley units.
Even precision strikes is great with the leaders powersword vs units that bubble wrap thier ICs, however precision strike with heavy thunder hammers are better in the detschment. So this named unit will probably see some use beyond this detschment.
Edit: just checked the named vanguard vet squad with standard loadout pays 10pts for a character with +1 wound, precision strike, and the unit entry has the deepstrike rule whereas the vanguard vet squad doesn't but they are both jump pack units so I don't know why the difference.
Just being Jump gives them deepstrike even if it's not listed.
That squads problem is it is in TWC/Wulfen price range without any assault from reserves etc rules. So all your opponent has to do is 6 t4 3++ wounds with basic shooting.
Was really hoping for a bonus like Skyhammer, that other vangurd vet formation with assault from reserves, etc
As a competitive gamer I can see Aquila Kill Team being the go to choice in 99% of situations. I just don't see the point of any of the others. There is no point taking any of the others. Great GW. Thankfully this is a really great release other than those limp formations.
So I'm actually a bit intrigued by the Dominatus Formation. In the Watch Company, it can reroll on HQ, Elite, IC, and Psykers. If combined with a Mission Tactic, you basically get Vanguards with PE: Everything. How's this for a load out?
It's 215pts before Shotguns which are likely free or 5-10 each. While that's crazy expensive, they are comparable to Sanguinary Guard in weight of attacks/templates/AP 2. Alternatively, no Storm Shields drops them to 170pts with just a pair of HTHs.
While the rest of my army is gonna be Aquilla (same as Furor and Malleus) Kill Teams.
I just noticed something - The Banebolts of Eryxia have a stalker pattern profile -- yet no character with access to relics can take a stalker pattern boltgun. I was thinking of modeling a cool sniper watch-captain similar to Sgt. Telion and making a kill team designed to lurk on the rear line and take out key targets from afar. I can still do that, with a veteran squad, but no stalker boltguns on characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RedFox wrote: Question: can you use overkill formations and characters in the black spear detachment?
At present, deathwatch overkill has no errata stating that the characters and formations can be substituted for the black spear detachment. However we have seen that the Kill Team Cassius box will be for preorder this weekend, and I would anticipate that the rules sheet included with that kit will detail that they can be substituted, similar to the death masque characters.
Also of note the death masque units only work for a Strategium Command Team, Dominatus Kill Team, and Aquila Kill Team. All the other KT's in the codex require a biker or terminator, making the model count too high if you include both death masque units. Although it should be said you can include the Death Masque Veterans in one Kill Team and the Death Mask Vanguard in a separate kill team and be OK - but the vanguards plus 5 veterans is 10 models so again they're only useful in the aquila or dominatus teams.
Am I understanding right that with the boxed set formation, you DON'T have to do the "one big unit thing" and thus you can get at least some jump packs who are not glued to normal infantry?
TheWaspinator wrote: Am I understanding right that with the boxed set formation, you DON'T have to do the "one big unit thing" and thus you can get at least some jump packs who are not glued to normal infantry?
Yes - Watch Force Artemis has the option to deploy together as a kill team, or separately as normal units. Kill Team Cassius is the other kill team that has this option - all other kill team datasheets say the non-vehicle units must form one unit.
One good thing to note - IC's can join the deathwatch kill teams, so you can take 1-3 chaplains, librarians, watch captains etc and put them into your kill teams.
So about that lack of pistols, I just realised something hilarious/bloody stupid. Veterans can replace their CC weapon with a bolter for free. And they can replace their bolter with a shotgun for free. So every veteran can have BOTH a bolter and a shotgun for free! No need for pistols, you can use your free shotgun while assaulting! It would just look bloody stupid.
Crimson wrote: So about that lack of pistols, I just realised something hilarious/bloody stupid. Veterans can replace their CC weapon with a bolter for free. And they can replace their bolter with a shotgun for free. So every veteran can have BOTH a bolter and a shotgun for free! No need for pistols, you can use your free shotgun while assaulting! It would just look bloody stupid.
OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
sizzlebutt666 wrote: OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Unless the army is entirely Deathwatch. Then you're gonna want something that comes in (or is already on the board) on turn one. Or does the formation give you something for turn one and I missed it?
Crimson wrote:So about that lack of pistols, I just realised something hilarious/bloody stupid. Veterans can replace their CC weapon with a bolter for free. And they can replace their bolter with a shotgun for free. So every veteran can have BOTH a bolter and a shotgun for free! No need for pistols, you can use your free shotgun while assaulting! It would just look bloody stupid.
Slapping a shotgun across their back a'la gears of war would probably look alright. and you're right - having an assault 2 shred weapon beats the hell out of a pistol.
sizzlebutt666 wrote:OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
I like it too. Dreadnoughts will still require drop pods, and I think having 1 or 3 in an army isn't a bad call.
sizzlebutt666 wrote: OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Drop pods are still good for Drop Pod assault. I'm definitely not giving up that benefit.
One thing you could do (although it may be a waste of points) is when taking a heavy weapon you can swap a veterans close combat weapon with a storm shield. May make for some cool models in the squad? (Doing this may be good if you are running a veteran squad who is going to be assaulting).
Has anyone looked at the Veteran's entry to see that you can equip all of your vets with shotguns for free and STILL keep the bolter? It's weird, and I'm sure it's not intended but...
1. Each vet starts with Bolter & CCW 2. Any vet can replace his Bolter with a Shotgun -- for free
3. Any vet can replace his CCW with a Bolter --for free
Conclusion: You still retain your special ammo so there is absolutely no reason not to do this. There's no downside at all...
Brother Xeones wrote: Has anyone looked at the Veteran's entry to see that you can equip all of your vets with shotguns for free and STILL keep the bolter? It's weird, and I'm sure it's not intended but...
1. Each vet starts with Bolter & CCW 2. Any vet can replace his Bolter with a Shotgun -- for free
3. Any vet can replace his CCW with a Bolter --for free
Conclusion: You still retain your special ammo so their is absolutely no reason not to do this. There's no downside at all...
In fact, by doing this you can retain a boltgun on all special weapons in the squad - making it a no-brainer as well. The guy packing a meltagun? he's got a boltgun on his back ready to go when he needs the special ammo. It's awesome.
Brother Xeones wrote: Has anyone looked at the Veteran's entry to see that you can equip all of your vets with shotguns for free and STILL keep the bolter? It's weird, and I'm sure it's not intended but...
1. Each vet starts with Bolter & CCW 2. Any vet can replace his Bolter with a Shotgun -- for free
3. Any vet can replace his CCW with a Bolter --for free
Conclusion: You still retain your special ammo so their is absolutely no reason not to do this. There's no downside at all...
In fact, by doing this you can retain a boltgun on all special weapons in the squad - making it a no-brainer as well. The guy packing a meltagun? he's got a boltgun on his back ready to go when he needs the special ammo. It's awesome.
Wolfblade wrote: So what you're saying is... frag launchers on 4, grav guns/melta guns on the rest, and bolters on everyone, in a drop pod.
I would instead do a unit of 4 frag cannons, a heavy flamer terminator or two, and shotguns/bolters on the rest of the veterans in a drop pod.
You don't need the flamer termie though, you already have 8 S6 rending templates. Melta/grav guns allow the rest of the unit to threaten whatever the frag cannons shoot at, and bolters give the option of hitting a target at 30"
Wolfblade wrote: So what you're saying is... frag launchers on 4, grav guns/melta guns on the rest, and bolters on everyone, in a drop pod.
I would instead do a unit of 4 frag cannons, a heavy flamer terminator or two, and shotguns/bolters on the rest of the veterans in a drop pod.
You don't need the flamer termie though, you already have 8 S6 rending templates. Melta/grav guns allow the rest of the unit to threaten whatever the frag cannons shoot at, and bolters give the option of hitting a target at 30"
Frag cannons can fire s7 ap3 or s9 ap2 depending on range - they can handle just about any target you give to them. The heavy flamer termies add more wall of death plus have powerfists and can go in front to tank with 2+ armor.
The possibilities are quite bountiful with this book - every unit has access to a great armory. Go wild.
edit - i'm just more concerned how i'm going to get ahold of deathwatch frag cannons without resorting to heavy conversions.
Frag cannons can fire s7 ap3 or s9 ap2 depending on range.
And a scound fire mode with a template
for Termis I woulkd use the build in Melter Fist and a shield
Terminators can either:
swap the fist for a chainfist, power weapon, or meltafist
swap the storm bolter for a heavy flamer or assault cannon
Take a cyclone launcher
OR replace all his weapons (listed above) for either a TH/SS or 2x Lightning claws. So no meltafist/storm shield terminators. All that said it's really looking like you can kit out your models however you like best (according to their available choices) and they'll find some use in a battle.
tetrisphreak wrote:...OR replace all his weapons (listed above)...
To be truly accurate, you really need to remove the word ALL from the above statement. I'm not sure it makes a difference, but I think you might be able to make a case the the CML at least doesn't actually need to be replaced and therefore may still be retained. You could also argue that it doesn't need to say "all" for the meaning to be clear though...
But certainly, you can't pull shenanigans like Metafist and Stormshield.
Crimson wrote: So about that lack of pistols, I just realised something hilarious/bloody stupid. Veterans can replace their CC weapon with a bolter for free. And they can replace their bolter with a shotgun for free. So every veteran can have BOTH a bolter and a shotgun for free! No need for pistols, you can use your free shotgun while assaulting! It would just look bloody stupid.
It's not stupid... It's cool...
If the vanguards had the option to be bought withotu JP i would good use of a foot unit of 4 vanguards 5 veterans and 1 librarian inside a LR...
I think it is stupid to be able to equip two large shooting weapons and probably not intended. But this codex seems to be pretty badly designed, there are a lot of little oddities.
Hmm, looks like I'll have to come up with a name and some fluff for the special "compact" shotguns my Deathwatch will use that coincidentally happen to look exactly like holstered bolt pistols...
sizzlebutt666 wrote:OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Can you deep strike on turn one? If not, then it's an auto loss if you have no units on the board correct?
sizzlebutt666 wrote:OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Can you deep strike on turn one? If not, then it's an auto loss if you have no units on the board correct?
That is correct. But nothing forces a Deep Strike.
sizzlebutt666 wrote:OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Can you deep strike on turn one? If not, then it's an auto loss if you have no units on the board correct?
sizzlebutt666 wrote:OH wow I finally saw the Black Spear Strike Force gives everything Deep Strike, so no actual need for Drop Pods!!! This is a seriously strong detachment, with Deep Strike and rerolling so many dice, I don't think I even need Librarians.
Can you deep strike on turn one? If not, then it's an auto loss if you have no units on the board correct?
That is correct. But nothing forces a Deep Strike.
Correct. So you can elect to Deep Strike some units while keeping others on the board. One good option would be to get some bikes on the board early with the Deathwatch Teleport Homer and then move them up as far as they can go (while maintaining coherency), then deep striking the other unit the maximum distance away from them to wreck face.
On a side note, between the Aquila Kill Team doing what all the other Kill Teams do at the same time and the Bolter/Shotgun debacle, it makes me wonder if GW actually proofread this book.
The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.
But they're not "more specialized", there in effect worse. Because Aquillas do everything, basically.
Edit** I recognize some Kill-Teams reroll all to-wounds rolls, but I don't think it justifies how much "better" Aquillas are in general. I will likely only ever use an Aquilla.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.
Oh jeez. Reading comprehension fail on my part. Now that makes a lot more sense! I have seriously been pondering why the other Kill Teams exist when the Aquila did the same thing only better. I see the difference now. Thanks!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: The Aquila Killteam only Re-rolls 1s, and I believe in the video with PK and RC was described as being the "Jack of all Trades" Killteam vs the more specialized other Killteams.
But they're not "more specialized", there in effect worse. Because Aquillas do everything, basically.
Edit** I recognize some Kill-Teams reroll all to-wounds rolls, but I don't think it justifies how much "better" Aquillas are in general. I will likely only ever use an Aquilla.
Hell, my 1850 List uses -5- Aquillas.
Rerolling all To Wound rolls coupled with Mission Tactics allowing rerolls of To Hit rolls of 1 and Librarians boosting up other stuff can make the specific Kill-Teams decent, situationally, --especially if someone takes into account the bit about mixed units counting as both for Mission Tactics purposes and you know your opponent likes to play the bubble wrap game.
To use an example: a unit of Eldar Jetbikes with an attached Farseer gets targeted by Furor Kill-Team. It's allowing for rerolling failed To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls against units with the battlefield role of "Troops"(Furor Kill-Team's special rule) and Purgatus Tactics are in play, allowing for rerolling To Hit rolls of 1s against any unit with the "HQ" battlefield role.
I realised another stupid thing about the veteran loadouts. A lot of the promo pictures show them with bolter and powersword, and in fact this is the only way to assemble the bolter chaps without converting. Now, this is not only bad loadout, it is completely insane one. Again, for some inexplicable reason, the lighting claw costs the same as the power sword. Now, without a second weapon the claw is exactly the same as the power sword, except it re-rolls wounds. No sensible person would ever equip their squad as GW suggests them to be equipped! Ant then there's the black shield with two power swords...
I really hate this, the kit comes with five swords, but there is absolutely no reason to ever equip any of the veterans with them, which is a shame as they look really cool.
Crimson wrote: I realised another stupid thing about the veteran loadouts. A lot of the promo pictures show them with bolter and powersword, and in fact this is the only way to assemble the bolter chaps without converting. Now, this is not only bad loadout, it is completely insane one. Again, for some inexplicable reason, the lighting claw costs the same as the power sword. Now, without a second weapon the claw is exactly the same as the power sword, except it re-rolls wounds. No sensible person would ever equip their squad as GW suggests them to be equipped! Ant then there's the black shield with two power swords...
I really hate this, the kit comes with five swords, but there is absolutely no reason to ever equip any of the veterans with them, which is a shame as they look really cool.
Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.
Yeah, and given the fact you can adjust the Mission Tactics during the game, allows you to be quite flexible. I am probably going to run two Aquila for all-around duty, one of the Elites hunting, and one of the Fast Attack hunting Kill Teams. The Strategium Command Team looks like fun, so I will probably run Artemis with one of the Aquilas in that.
Now I just need to figure out how I want to equip each of. The Kill Teams. The shotgun+Bolter revelation made that a lot easier.
I wish there was a way to make your Kill Teams better capable of killing MCs and GCs though.
While perusing the Glossary of the Deathwatch Codex sample, I noticed an entry for grav-cannons. I was wondering why since according to what I've heard so far, there are no units which can take them
-Aquila Kill-Team
Veteran Squad with 4x Stalker Boltguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword
Librarian rolling from Librarius
2x Terminators with CMLs with a DT Corvus
Watch-Captain Artemis replacing the Watch Captain for the formation
Watch Master as the Command and a Corvus Dropship Wing as Auxiliary
Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.
Sure. But it still bad rules writing to have two options, one of which is in every way inferior to cost the same. I mean, now it is is literally a question of whether you want free re-rolls to wound or not.
To be fair, if you are sending one of the Non-Aquila teams after their intended target anyway, the re-rolls to wound from the Lightning Claw are redundant.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Yeah, and given the fact you can adjust the Mission Tactics during the game, allows you to be quite flexible. I am probably going to run two Aquila for all-around duty, one of the Elites hunting, and one of the Fast Attack hunting Kill Teams. The Strategium Command Team looks like fun, so I will probably run Artemis with one of the Aquilas in that.
Now I just need to figure out how I want to equip each of. The Kill Teams. The shotgun+Bolter revelation made that a lot easier.
I wish there was a way to make your Kill Teams better capable of killing MCs and GCs though.
A 10 man veteran team comes out at 370pts when all armed with grav guns, shame there isn't an easy way to make them relentless.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: To be fair, if you are sending one of the Non-Aquila teams after their intended target anyway, the re-rolls to wound from the Lightning Claw are redundant.
Ok, so sometimes re-rolls, or always re-rolls. Which of these is better?
Clearly always, but remember the intent of the army is to send your specialists after their intended targets, much like using Aspect Warriors for the Eldar.
Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.
Never expect people to always choose the most efficient option. You'd be surprised what people will take, whether thats GW's fault or their own.
Sure. But it still bad rules writing to have two options, one of which is in every way inferior to cost the same. I mean, now it is is literally a question of whether you want free re-rolls to wound or not.
In the silly mind of GW designers a PW (sword maul axe or spear) is the same as a LC cause the PW gets additional attacks from any other HTH weapon while the LC get the additional attack from another Specialist weapon only...
This is when you want to get a bonus attack but if you use with a ranged weapon or a SSLC is better than a PW...
This is why GW never playtest their rules...
Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.
Yes, and it is even cheaper to equip the model with an actual flamer and the claw, and with two base attacks the re-rolls are still better even if you lose the extra attack and you get stronger flamer template (and costs less!)
In the silly mind of GW designers a PW (sword maul axe or spear) is the same as a LC cause the PW gets additional attacks from any other HTH weapon while the LC get the additional attack from another Specialist weapon only...
This is when you want to get a bonus attack but if you use with a ranged weapon or a SSLC is better than a PW...
This is why GW never playtest their rules...
This is not even something that needs to be playtested, it is just common sense and some simple math.
Also while in no way optimal, it is cheaper to give a model a Hand Flamer (Or Chain Sword) and a Power Sword for the extra attack than it is to give a model a Pair of Lightning Claws.
Yes, and it is even cheaper to equip the model with an actual flamer and the claw, and with two base attacks the re-rolls are still better even if you lose the extra attack and you get stronger flamer template (and costs less!)
Well its cheaper than giving them the hand flamer yes, but not cheaper than giving them the Chain sword.
In all reality though its just a way to sell more kits, so you can get more of the weapons you actually want, or for you to get bits to make the models the individuals you want them to be.
-Aquila Kill-Team
Veteran Squad with 4x Stalker Boltguns
1x Combi-Plasma and Xenophase Sword
Librarian rolling from Librarius
2x Terminators with CMLs with a DT Corvus
Watch-Captain Artemis replacing the Watch Captain for the formation
Watch Master as the Command and a Corvus Dropship Wing as Auxiliary
Hmmm, maybe I will run a Watch Company and a Strategium Command Team. That way I can run Watch Captain Artemis and a custom Watch Captain (probably with a Xenophase Blade and the Bane bolts). I need to figure out the points I will need since I do want to run a Knight Errant with these guys.
It is kinda too bad that the Heavy Thunder Hammer doesn't come cheaper for VVs like all other CC weapons. That would be sweet.
Well its cheaper than giving them the hand flamer yes, but not cheaper than giving them the Chain sword.
*Sigh*
Yes, but chainsword it is worse so it makes sense for it cost less. Better options should cost more, that's pretty much the cornerstone of the game balance. This does not happen with the lightning claw.
Well, you'd still use all your attacks with the AP3 of the powersword, but have the +1 attack from also having the chain sword. No shooting of course and, unless sent after the Team's specific threat would get no re-rolls or with Aquila re-roll 1s The rest of the squad could shoot for that model.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wish there was a way to switch the CCW for a Bolt Pistol on the Veteran Squads. Instead I will just swap the CCW for a shotgun. Thanks GW.
I'd like to think they didn't intend the shotgun shenanigans, but with the other gak they rule(and eldar) it's impossible to tell. RAW go!
Went thru the leaks, not very impressed with the codex, I doubt much of a tournament army can be build from it.
Too high costs for just marines and no free transports, they will just die like any other MEQ. The DW veterans are just slightly better than Imperial Fist Sternguards if run in those kills teams.
I think those bikes are probably the only unit worth spamming. I'd still go with Ravenwing over them because of the dark shroud.
i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.
Sadly, I don't think most of the options will be usable. I foresee two veteran squad loadouts that will be be spammed. 1) Snipers with backup bolters accompanied by a librarian with the shielding relic. 2) The frag cannon spam with some extra bodies with bolters. Backup shotguns for everyone for massive wall of death, except maybe some meltas instead shotguns for few guys. Possibly couple of storm shields at the first rank. Add a librarian or single vanguard (can be one of the shield guys) to make it aquila-compliant.
I just don't see the melee stuff being viable, the weapons are just overpriced.
I am going to pair some Vanguards rocking Heavy Thunder Hammers with my Frag Cannon and Shotgun squads. Probably will give the Sergeants a Xenophase Blade and a Stormshield (possibly Stormshields on a couple of the other dudes) and park them up front to try to tank wounds. The dudes up front will take the hits, then when the time is right the Vanguards will come busting in with the Heavy Thunder Hammers. Not entirely sure, but I might pair a Biomancy or Telepathy Librarian with those squads for good measure.
Gamgee wrote: i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.
Its far weaker than the Tau codex, Riptides and Stormsurges will just rip any DW up with long range shooting and intercept. The codex itself lacks long range shooting, zero beat stick characters or any impressive assault units that the SM codex don't have. Every unit if kitted out will cost a lot, so you can't run a efficient MSU army with it either.
Although that flyer is pretty good, probably is one of the best flyers the imperials got with re-rollable jink is ridiculous. Maybe load a squad of Termicide on it armed with those melta PFs and just go to town.
I am not going to go bits hunting and paying an arm and a leg for Frag Cannons. I have one, Death Masque comes with one, and I will get two more Veteran Squad boxes for the remaining two. That should give me a ton of stuff to work with for this army.
Really seems like a solid alpha strike army - rewarding proper target selection, assigning the right squad to the right enemy unit, and using the proper weapons in order to mitigate the return hits.
So, they're powerful, but must be used tactically. I like this - you can minimize their weaknesses by playing intelligently.
Gotto say, the commander in Terminator armour being unable to take a Storm Shield thing really bothers me.
It reminds me so much of the current Chaos Codex where, as written, Chaos Terminators can either upgrade their ranged weapons or their melee weapons, but not both - a rule written that way when it wasn't intended that way yet still went to print because no one bothered to check.
Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?
tetrisphreak wrote: Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?
Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.
Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.
Sigh...looks like I might be making a squad that has gravguns or plasmaguns in one hand and shotguns in the other. God this game has gotten ridiculous. And yet, I actually could see the Deathwatch doing something ridiculous like this.
tetrisphreak wrote: Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?
Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.
Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.
Strategium Command Team with a Chaplain and a Xenophase Blade wielding Sergeant could probably put a wound or two on a GC, but it isn't something I would count on. Dropping several Frag Cannons in a WK's face might be the best option. One will probably have to get an ally in to deal with the big stuff, which is quite disappointing. I guess the Xenos big, scary things are too much for the Deathwatch.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Sigh...looks like I might be making a squad that has gravguns or plasmaguns in one hand and shotguns in the other. God this game has gotten ridiculous. And yet, I actually could see the Deathwatch doing something ridiculous like this.
tetrisphreak wrote: Hm that is a good point - Dwatch seem excellently equipped to handle the majority of xenos with 3+ or worse saves -- but what weapons or tactics would bear the most fruit if faces with multiple riptides, storm surges, or a wraith knight?
Heavy Thunder Hammers in a Dominatus Killteam for S10 AP2 Instant Death on a 6 with re-rolls to wound vs Elites Choices, which the Riptide is.
Storm surge and WK would be harder as the DW has no Anti-LoW Choice, perhaps Aquila Killteam so they can at least re-roll their 1s.
Strategium Command Team with a Chaplain and a Xenophase Blade wielding Sergeant could probably put a wound or two on a GC, but it isn't something I would count on. Dropping several Frag Cannons in a WK's face might be the best option. One will probably have to get an ally in to deal with the big stuff, which is quite disappointing. I guess the Xenos big, scary things are too much for the Deathwatch.
It's actually rather fluffy- Death Watch is more a special forces group specializing in Xenos. When Xenos pull out a wraithknight or stormsurge, you don't call for the Astartes Team 6, but for the Titan legions.
From the looks of it, this is how Deathwatch should be- small model count, high tech specialists. Like Assassins and Inquisition, they are not really meant to be a full sized army, but a tool for allied forces. Grey Knights are similar, but have expanded into a larger force since the daemonic often means that no one else can face them, so GK need to cover the bases.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gotto say, the commander in Terminator armour being unable to take a Storm Shield thing really bothers me.
It reminds me so much of the current Chaos Codex where, as written, Chaos Terminators can either upgrade their ranged weapons or their melee weapons, but not both - a rule written that way when it wasn't intended that way yet still went to print because no one bothered to check.
It's particularly silly when you consider any Joe Deathwatchmarine from the basic squad can take one(which is good, IMO, it just highlights the issue with the HQ). Giving every Watch Master exactly the same gear is also a bit wonko IMO.
It really does seem like the 'dex is a bit half-arsed - I can't fathom why they didn't just give them all Bolt Pistols and then make the upgrades melee for melee and ranged for ranged.
Honestly I'm glad I was only planning to put together one Kill Team and am basing the loadouts on fluff, because trying to build a proper army out of this slightly shambolic setup does not appeal.
Gamgee wrote: i think testing will see if they are at a similar power level to the Tau or just under it. For which I am thankful. I wish they would tone down the power of all the super powered codices. I might actually be able to convince the scrubs around me to play me again. Despite not even using cheesy lists in the first place.
That was my impression as well. I think vanillans will wipe the floor with these guys.
Regarding how to represent Bolter + Shotgun wielders, clearly the best thing to do is to get those sweet double-barreled Bolters that FW has for the Alpha Legion Headhunters.
Stormsurges (usually taken in two) will be tough since they can out melee you so you will need to rely on out shooting them. This at at a hyper competitive level.
I think against Gargs and SHV the DW will need to play the objective game or try find a cheap way to tie up those units for a turn or two. The DW are also going to have a lot of problems with high end flyer spam like the Tau Barracuda which could become a thing depending on your meta. It will be even worse if you have the flyers supplement where their spamming is even more insanely good.
Edit
No doubt as time goes by they will be fleshed out more. They are already better than most armies.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Regarding how to represent Bolter + Shotgun wielders, clearly the best thing to do is to get those sweet double-barreled Bolters that FW has for the Alpha Legion Headhunters.
Make Combi-Bolter Shotguns! As in take the bolter and graft the shotgun on top of it. One could also take the Thunderwolf Cavalry "bolter in a sling bit" and attach it to the backpack. The older Tactical Squad kit used to have bolters that still had the handle on them, I think I might have one or two of those that I could attach to the backpacks. Good news is that Drenn Redblade has the exact backpack needed for this, I will just swap his arms out for shotgun arms.
That is a good plan to use the Head Hunter bolters!
I would consider doing that if I didnt already have 3 full squads of DW marines with different FW bolters (phobos is my fave look) as they are the unifying theme for the squad since they are all so varied.
I am just going to give my list an easy way out with "Every bolter marine has a shotgun hidden somewhere" universal rule.
They are probably going to be super as allies since they are such a potent unit. When they have some IK backup or something big they will be quite scary.
I don't like most of the IoM stuff so I'm just running them solo if I ever get a game.
Gamgee wrote: They are probably going to be super as allies since they are such a potent unit. When they have some IK backup or something big they will be quite scary.
I don't like most of the IoM stuff so I'm just running them solo if I ever get a game.
My guys will be running around with a Knight Errant for dealing with big stuff. Yes, it takes a chunk out of my DW fun times, but I want to be able to at least attempt to take a WK or Stormsurge out.
Tau heresy! The Stormsurge is glorious. Sorry reflex. All this talk of DW and Imperium is affecting my head. If I don't get that out I'll lose it.
I like the way IK look but the inner hipster in me doesn't like playing the same army as another especially in the small group who used to play with me. One player had an IG/IK army. So that's a nope.
I'll just wait until they get something of their own to handle it. If it ever gets to the point they can beat the most casual of lists I might look into an IK. I'll likely grab a FW one if I did just to distinguish mine from his. Considering they were having difficulty taking down firewarriors, kroot, and vespid I don't think I'll have any issues.
One of the players is thinking of selling his CSM or shelving them and starting Grey Knights.
Knight Errants get rekt by Stormsurges and Wraithknights.
I'm thinking of starting a Deathwatch force to go with Inquisition and Assassins, and build them up to their own thing. Maybe I can find someone selling the Harlequins for super cheap as well - kind of want to start a Xenos army, and this one isn't considered op cheese.
Hopefully GW releases DWfaq soon. That bolter+shotgun sounds a lot like what GW might not have intended(whoops) and I can see possibility of them errating that. Better that comes sooner than later so nobody has to re-model their conversions! Or clear that it's intended(at which point why not just have that as standard loadout...) once and for all.
Personally I like it, gives the option to go things like stalker/shotgun or similar combinations building in some diversity of options. There is no reason to stick with a CCW so might as well get an assault weapon. Also it is better than a bolt pistol in almost any circumstance
The codex isn't even officially out. It would be funny to see a faq that fast. Honestly if they are allowed to have both it's not really all that strong in the grand scheme of the over powered factions. I kind of like the idea they are loaded down with guns, but it's up to GW.
I've got a rough 2000 point list planned out, but to start I think I'll end up grabbing a Watch Captain, Veterans, and Corvus Blackstar. Soon as my Taunar is done which is going to start when I'm done my Tidewall. Only two pieces of that left. Man I need more time.
Leth wrote: Personally I like it, gives the option to go things like stalker/shotgun or similar combinations building in some diversity of options. There is no reason to stick with a CCW so might as well get an assault weapon. Also it is better than a bolt pistol in almost any circumstance
Yes gamewise it makes sense to replace it. But it feels very weird(is there another unit with two basic guns per model?) so feels like it's possible it was not intended(GW is not known for quality of rules...Just look at how there's no reason whatsoever to NOT take free lightning claw upgrade! Better or equal in every scenario to power sword, same price) so it's not beyond realm of possibility.
So it would be better for GW to clarify it one way or another soon. Imagine how pissed people are going to be if they convert(possibly with not-that-cheap FW parts) their models and 5 months later GW says "oops sorry that was correct. No more that from now on".
Which is why I hope it gets clarified in a FAQ sooner rather than later.
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Gamgee wrote: The codex isn't even officially out. It would be funny to see a faq that fast. Honestly if they are allowed to have both it's not really all that strong in the grand scheme of the over powered factions. I kind of like the idea they are loaded down with guns, but it's up to GW.
I've got a rough 2000 point list planned out, but to start I think I'll end up grabbing a Watch Captain, Veterans, and Corvus Blackstar. Soon as my Taunar is done which is going to start when I'm done my Tidewall. Only two pieces of that left. Man I need more time.
They put out FAQ for generals handbook in AOS before it was on sale so it's not impossible. And updates to product on day of release is pretty typical these days.
Now I couldn't really care myself since if I get deathwatch army I need to create rules from scratch since GW never gave me DW rules I could use but since people are already talking how to model it...Just would be nice to have it cleared up as soon as possible. Either way is fine, just clear it soon.
Plenty of units have been able to do this before, we just never heard about them because they were seldom beneficial. A Space Marine Tactical Squad Sergeant can trade his bolt pistol for a second boltgun, for instance. It serves no benefit, so no one ever did it, but he CAN do it. An example of one that can do it and it IS beneficial is a Scout Sergeant can exchange his bolt pistol for a boltgun and his boltgun for a sniper rifle. Ridiculous, but possible.
I'd be tempted to give one guy a shotgun on his back and bolter in hand for the Aliens nod - "I like to keep this handy for close encounters" - but yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a mistake. They need to fix this stupid "Replace their bolter and/or close combat weapon for one of the following" "Replace their bolter and close combat weapon with any of the following" wording in their codex books anyway, it's needlessly ambiguous.
I have 20 shotties from the 30k recon marines spare so looks like imma have loads of deathwatch with compact shotguns
Automatically Appended Next Post: May also use my recon marines with snipers as stalker bolters as feth only having one in the kit (thats reloading...) -_-
If they weren't so damn expensive, I would pick up a bunch of the holstered shotguns from the Scout Bikers kit. Between those and the holstered boltguns from TWC, I would make a squad with each weapon out. But I don't have any desire to put down $60 just to add a weapon option.
Personally I imagine them holstering one while they use the other and vice Versa. Like how on the 30k marines you can put a sword on their back. Personally I find it more weird that people are assuming it is an error when it's the sort of thing you could do before, there was just never an advantage to do so. If anyone would have an advantage of this sort it would be the deathwatch. Stalker shotgun sounds kinda fun I am not gonna lie...
Can't Inquisitorial Henchmen carry two long guns, too? Storm Bolter and Meltagun, or similar, if they want to? If a relatively normal (if well trained) human can do that, surely Deathguard can pack a shotgun as a backup weapon.
Crazyterran wrote: I don't know if you can replace a pick off the wargear list with another one.
Why couldn't you?
In fact, if you couldn't SM bikers could not take any special weapons. (You need to replace your bolter or a cc weapon with a special weapon, neither of which the bikers have. They however have a bolt pistol and an ability to replace it with a chainsword.)
Leth wrote: Personally I imagine them holstering one while they use the other and vice Versa.
Not really the point I was making. I was more talking about how I don't think GW intended to have DW squads where everyone has multiple basic weapons.
I just think it is bizarre that the relic Special Issue Ammunition has a profile for Stalker Boltguns...but they are Special Weapons, thus unable to be taken by anyone who can take the relic Special Issue Ammunition.
The Shotguns and Stalkers are both listed as Special Weapons, which is strange.
Crimson wrote: So about that lack of pistols, I just realised something hilarious/bloody stupid. Veterans can replace their CC weapon with a bolter for free. And they can replace their bolter with a shotgun for free. So every veteran can have BOTH a bolter and a shotgun for free! No need for pistols, you can use your free shotgun while assaulting! It would just look bloody stupid.
It's not stupid... It's cool...
If the vanguards had the option to be bought withotu JP i would good use of a foot unit of 4 vanguards 5 veterans and 1 librarian inside a LR...
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
Leth wrote: ...Personally I find it more weird that people are assuming it is an error when it's the sort of thing you could do before, there was just never an advantage to do so....
Here is why I wonder if it was a mistake: There is absolutely no reason not to. What if the codex said "any space marine can replace his CCW with a lascannon for free"? Wouldn't that raise some eyebrows? Without access to bolt pistols, there is absolutely no benefit to having a CCW compared to a shotgun. None. Games creation is built on the idea of opportunity cost and/or points costs —ei. you either gain some advantages while losing others or you adjust points to compensate. If it's intentional, it makes it a horrible game choice for a games creator. If it's accidental, it's at least a little more forgivable.
Hanskrampf wrote: My Death Masque box arrived today, can't wait to get home from work and have a look at all the cool sprues!
Huh? You got a preorder in Germany from GW 2 days before it's in the stores? Last times I preordered they sended it on release date and I only had it Tuesdays or Wednesdays.....
Hanskrampf wrote: My Death Masque box arrived today, can't wait to get home from work and have a look at all the cool sprues!
Huh? You got a preorder in Germany from GW 2 days before it's in the stores? Last times I preordered they sended it on release date and I only had it Tuesdays or Wednesdays.....
Online retailer. Sends it out so you have it at release saturday IF everything goes wrong with DHL. If DHL picks it up and delivers it without problems, I have it early.
Yes, GW sends it out at release saturday. Which sucks, imo.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Strategium Command Team:
Chaplain: Bike
7xVanguard Vets with 2xHeavy TH, 3xTH/SS, 2xPC/SS, Blackshield(the heavy TH guy), jump packs
White Scar Libby Conclave:
4xLibbies with force axe, lvl2
There you have it a fast hard hitting semi-death star that can kill GMC/SH and can HnR
Chaplain can't take bike
Blackshield is an option only for vets and cannot have Jump packs...
Strategium command requires 1 veteran squad or one of the kill teams... all kill teams requires at least a 5 man veteran squad...
Your idea is totally non legal...
I would suggest not strapping shotguns to all your marines before GW has their say... They've been very fast with erratas or new stuff lately, Silver Tower for example.
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
I read that too, There are people with better knowledge of how rules work. Is there a way to work around this? Only thing I can think of is since jump packs give jump infantry status, maybe because they are already listed as jump infantry, that would give them jump packs automatically?
I just think it is bizarre that the relic Special Issue Ammunition has a profile for Stalker Boltguns...but they are Special Weapons, thus unable to be taken by anyone who can take the relic Special Issue Ammunition.
The Shotguns and Stalkers are both listed as Special Weapons, which is strange.
Special Issue Ammunition is listed on the Veterans unit entry. They got it already, regardless of what bolt-weapon pattern they take. And they can all take a Special weapon anyway. No issue there.
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
I read that too, There are people with better knowledge of how rules work. Is there a way to work around this? Only thing I can think of is since jump packs give jump infantry status, maybe because they are already listed as jump infantry, that would give them jump packs automatically?
I'm sure it's an omission akin to the 'do Terminators have Terminator Armour?' flaff of yore, but yes, the Unit Type is enough to tell you how they operate.
I just think it is bizarre that the relic Special Issue Ammunition has a profile for Stalker Boltguns...but they are Special Weapons, thus unable to be taken by anyone who can take the relic Special Issue Ammunition.
The Shotguns and Stalkers are both listed as Special Weapons, which is strange.
Special Issue Ammunition is listed on the Veterans unit entry. They got it already, regardless of what bolt-weapon pattern they take. And they can all take a Special weapon anyway. No issue there.
There is a special Relic called the "Banebolts of Eryxia".
Banebolts have a profile for Stalker pattern Boltguns--but no character who can take Relics can take a Stalker pattern Boltgun.
That is what I was referring to--along with the fact that Shotguns and Stalker Boltguns, traditionally, are not some kind of "unique special weapon" but rather basic weapon options.
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
I read that too, There are people with better knowledge of how rules work. Is there a way to work around this? Only thing I can think of is since jump packs give jump infantry status, maybe because they are already listed as jump infantry, that would give them jump packs automatically?
Do jump packs grant any capabilities beyond making the model jump infantry?
If not then it's irrelevant whether they have packs or not.
Thanks for that. I feel like such a newb asking all these questions for this army. Just want to really understand how they work the first time, and not getting everything wrong during matches
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
I read that too, There are people with better knowledge of how rules work. Is there a way to work around this? Only thing I can think of is since jump packs give jump infantry status, maybe because they are already listed as jump infantry, that would give them jump packs automatically?
Do jump packs grant any capabilities beyond making the model jump infantry?
If not then it's irrelevant whether they have packs or not.
The real problem is this which mistake did they make? Did they intend to make them jump infantry to begin with and forgot to add it to their existing wargear (probably) or did they intend to leave it off and then allow you to take one as added wargear (possibly)? It would really be nice if Vanguard could go packless. They'd fit in with foot-slogging killteams better and you wouldn't have the issue of them being bulky for transport slots.
I have the Death Masque boxed set in hand...lovely stuff. The Kill Team sprue is chock a block of bits, just so much stuff and so many possibilities. But am definitely going to wait a while before kitting out my Kill Team just to not have to rip any of the miniatures to bits.
Banebolts have a profile for Stalker pattern Boltguns--but no character who can take Relics can take a Stalker pattern Boltgun.
That is what I was referring to--along with the fact that Shotguns and Stalker Boltguns, traditionally, are not some kind of "unique special weapon" but rather basic weapon options.
Banebolts have a profile for Stalker pattern Boltguns--but no character who can take Relics can take a Stalker pattern Boltgun.
That is what I was referring to--along with the fact that Shotguns and Stalker Boltguns, traditionally, are not some kind of "unique special weapon" but rather basic weapon options.
Funny you should mention this. I was looking at the Vanguard entry and the unit type is "jump infantry", but if you look at the equipment list, a jump pack isn't on it —and there's no way to buy one in the wargear section. Am I missing something? It's like they planned on not making foot-slogging Vanguard an option for DW, but then forgot to add a jump pack back to the base equipment list.
I read that too, There are people with better knowledge of how rules work. Is there a way to work around this? Only thing I can think of is since jump packs give jump infantry status, maybe because they are already listed as jump infantry, that would give them jump packs automatically?
Bikers have the same issue. They don't have space marine bikes in their wargear. Noticed it when their twin-linked boltguns were listed, since that's usually in the space marine bike profile.
I'm curious if this is following a new rules format, or it's just complete lack of consistency.
One oddity about the Death Masque set, they have forgotten to put the instructions for the Harlequin jet bikes in. Also in my local store one of the punters was lucky enough to have an additional Artemis in his box. Hope other Dakkaites are as lucky.
When I eventually do start this army (probably next year), I'm thinking CC-heavy force loaded up in Landraider Crusaders. Probably not the strongest choice for this army, but I think it'll be fun to play.
Mchaagen wrote: Bikers have the same issue. They don't have space marine bikes in their wargear. Noticed it when their twin-linked boltguns were listed, since that's usually in the space marine bike profile.
I'm curious if this is following a new rules format, or it's just complete lack of consistency.
It's maybe just simplification. The unit type says 'Bike' and the T upgrade is built in. No need to add bike to wargear too. It would make a welcome change to simplify things this way.
The Tau Sun Shark bomber didn't have its listing for its bomb despite the whole model being built around the bomb launcher. SO some people tried to claim that it couldn't fire its bomb since it wasn't listed.
It was FAQ'ed in with out recent one. Anyone who tries to say they don't have a jump pack is being ridiculous cheesmonger who I wouldn't want to play with.
Mchaagen wrote: Bikers have the same issue. They don't have space marine bikes in their wargear. Noticed it when their twin-linked boltguns were listed, since that's usually in the space marine bike profile.
I'm curious if this is following a new rules format, or it's just complete lack of consistency.
It's maybe just simplification. The unit type says 'Bike' and the T upgrade is built in. No need to add bike to wargear too. It would make a welcome change to simplify things this way.
It would be very Age of Sigmar-y; which is not a bad thing.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I have the Death Masque boxed set in hand...lovely stuff. The Kill Team sprue is chock a block of bits, just so much stuff and so many possibilities. But am definitely going to wait a while before kitting out my Kill Team just to not have to rip any of the miniatures to bits.
Just finished looking through my sprues, the Deathwatch Veterans are one of the coolest and one of the worst SM sprues of the last years. Full of cool bits and options, but only a few of each, so you can't give everyone the same gear. But 6 Power Swords and the upgrade sprues has another one. And every boltgun is one-handed...
I'm glad Deathwatch is finally here, but mad at the same time for a wasted chance. The Vanguard, Sternguard and SM 2015 kits are MUCH better designed in terms of options.
Mchaagen wrote: Bikers have the same issue. They don't have space marine bikes in their wargear. Noticed it when their twin-linked boltguns were listed, since that's usually in the space marine bike profile.
I'm curious if this is following a new rules format, or it's just complete lack of consistency.
It's maybe just simplification. The unit type says 'Bike' and the T upgrade is built in. No need to add bike to wargear too. It would make a welcome change to simplify things this way.
Ita a readdressing. Take 5th Ed, for example, where there was Space Marine Bike as wargear.
The actual model profile was "Space Marine" which was exactly the same as a Tactical squad. The wargear option for "Space Marine Bike" differentiated the two by adding the Bike unit type, T4(5) and twinlinked bolter. Now that the toughness is built in, one of thos three things is redundant. So the profile can be made different by giving a different profile called "Space Marine Biker." That in itself, by definition, makes it a Bike unit type, which the model had anyway. So now the only thing the wargear option adds that the model didn't already have is the twinlinked bolter.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: One oddity about the Death Masque set, they have forgotten to put the instructions for the Harlequin jet bikes in. Also in my local store one of the punters was lucky enough to have an additional Artemis in his box. Hope other Dakkaites are as lucky.
That's cool. A 2nd artemis would be sweet conversion fodder.
Also, it looks like GW is becoming eco friendly (not a bad thing) now the assembly instructions are up on the product page.
Would it be too much heresy to add Cataphractii terminator armor to the bunch? Not for rules, but is there any lore of the DW using it? If so, which chapters would most likely make use of it?
Now that the new has worn off some, I think this codex and the veteran box were either not built for each other or they made changes before final print. There is a lot of oddities.
And to model these guys and use the cool left arms...you may have to give some power swords, which is a complete gak weapon per point with the options they have.
I'm not sure if this has been talked about yet, but there is a piece of Relic Wargear that is called the Beacon Angelis. Once per game you can teleport any unit to within 6 inches of the bearer without scatter.
Now, this doesn't say INFANTRY unit, only UNIT. So, hypothetically, that means you can teleport that unit of dreadnoughts, a landraider, or even a Corvus Blackstar. That looks like it could have some nasty implications. I know Dreadnoughts are a bit lackluster, but having a pretty good way to move them across the board unexpected and precisely where you want them makes them a little better. Have a mob of Ork Boys going to gang up on your small squad? Teleport over a LandRaider Crusader and disembark a unit of guys with heavy flamers. I know it would be extremely situational, but even teleporting the Corvus could be nice so it doesn't fly off the table, or so it can line up for the perfect shot.
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conker249 wrote: Would it be too much heresy to add Cataphractii terminator armor to the bunch? Not for rules, but is there any lore of the DW using it? If so, which chapters would most likely make use of it?
The Dark Angels have the most sets of terminator armor, and the most old-school tech hidden away. Although there isn't specific mention of them having it I'd say there is a good chance they do.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I have the Death Masque boxed set in hand...lovely stuff. The Kill Team sprue is chock a block of bits, just so much stuff and so many possibilities. But am definitely going to wait a while before kitting out my Kill Team just to not have to rip any of the miniatures to bits.
Just finished looking through my sprues, the Deathwatch Veterans are one of the coolest and one of the worst SM sprues of the last years. Full of cool bits and options, but only a few of each, so you can't give everyone the same gear. But 6 Power Swords and the upgrade sprues has another one. And every boltgun is one-handed...
I'm glad Deathwatch is finally here, but mad at the same time for a wasted chance. The Vanguard, Sternguard and SM 2015 kits are MUCH better designed in terms of options.
I have the feeling I will be doing a lot of mixing and matching between this, stern guard, and vanguard kits....
conker249 wrote: Would it be too much heresy to add Cataphractii terminator armor to the bunch? Not for rules, but is there any lore of the DW using it? If so, which chapters would most likely make use of it?
I don't see why not. Would be a pretty badass looking Deathwatch marine
As has been said, Dark Angels have a good amount of Heresy-era toys lying about, as they never really got stuck into the Heresy quite as much as other legions.
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Bulldogging wrote: Now that the new has worn off some, I think this codex and the veteran box were either not built for each other or they made changes before final print. There is a lot of oddities.
And to model these guys and use the cool left arms...you may have to give some power swords, which is a complete gak weapon per point with the options they have.
conker249 wrote: Would it be too much heresy to add Cataphractii terminator armor to the bunch? Not for rules, but is there any lore of the DW using it? If so, which chapters would most likely make use of it?
I don't see why not. Would be a pretty badass looking Deathwatch marine
As has been said, Dark Angels have a good amount of Heresy-era toys lying about, as they never really got stuck into the Heresy quite as much as other legions.
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Bulldogging wrote: Now that the new has worn off some, I think this codex and the veteran box were either not built for each other or they made changes before final print. There is a lot of oddities.
And to model these guys and use the cool left arms...you may have to give some power swords, which is a complete gak weapon per point with the options they have.
That's what clippers are for
LOL true enough. It just would have been nice if they had built the kit right. I'm betting they were originally going to come equipped with power weapons.
Or it could be that GW heard people complainign about lack of bits...so to teach us a lesson they made it so we couldnt build them as base models.
Has anyone else thought about using an Aquila to field 5 librarians? I'm sure it's really (read: INCREDIBLY) bad but I had the thought this morning and it's worming around in my brain. With naked vets it's like a 600 point unit if you make all the libs level 2, but if you have them roll on all different disciplines it could be a very interesting little unit to pod in somewhere. Throw some shields on the vets, keep them in front, use the rerolls from mission tactics and Aquila formation for psychic shooting rerolls.
Maybe scale that back, but now I'm actually thinking some psychic shooting might not be a bad kill team to plan out. Frag drops and divination ML squads are probably going to be better overall, but this might add a little fun in the mix
BossJakadakk wrote: Has anyone else thought about using an Aquila to field 5 librarians? I'm sure it's really (read: INCREDIBLY) bad but I had the thought this morning and it's worming around in my brain. With naked vets it's like a 600 point unit if you make all the libs level 2, but if you have them roll on all different disciplines it could be a very interesting little unit to pod in somewhere. Throw some shields on the vets, keep them in front, use the rerolls from mission tactics and Aquila formation for psychic shooting rerolls.
Maybe scale that back, but now I'm actually thinking some psychic shooting might not be a bad kill team to plan out. Frag drops and divination ML squads are probably going to be better overall, but this might add a little fun in the mix
That sounds profoundly annoying to both play and play against, since it'll inevitably have invisibility.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Strategium Command Team:
Chaplain: Bike
7xVanguard Vets with 2xHeavy TH, 3xTH/SS, 2xPC/SS, Blackshield(the heavy TH guy), jump packs
White Scar Libby Conclave:
4xLibbies with force axe, lvl2
There you have it a fast hard hitting semi-death star that can kill GMC/SH and can HnR
Chaplain can't take bike
Blackshield is an option only for vets and cannot have Jump packs...
Strategium command requires 1 veteran squad or one of the kill teams... all kill teams requires at least a 5 man veteran squad...
Your idea is totally non legal...
Haha yeah I just made that up without looking them up, too lazy to scroll back the leaks. Can the chaplain take a jump pack then?
Another idea is assuming if touneys don't use the GWFaq draft yet, bring the Wulfen murder pack and load them on to 3 DW flyers.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Strategium Command Team:
Chaplain: Bike
7xVanguard Vets with 2xHeavy TH, 3xTH/SS, 2xPC/SS, Blackshield(the heavy TH guy), jump packs
White Scar Libby Conclave:
4xLibbies with force axe, lvl2
There you have it a fast hard hitting semi-death star that can kill GMC/SH and can HnR
Chaplain can't take bike
Blackshield is an option only for vets and cannot have Jump packs...
Strategium command requires 1 veteran squad or one of the kill teams... all kill teams requires at least a 5 man veteran squad...
Your idea is totally non legal...
BossJakadakk wrote: Has anyone else thought about using an Aquila to field 5 librarians? I'm sure it's really (read: INCREDIBLY) bad but I had the thought this morning and it's worming around in my brain. With naked vets it's like a 600 point unit if you make all the libs level 2, but if you have them roll on all different disciplines it could be a very interesting little unit to pod in somewhere. Throw some shields on the vets, keep them in front, use the rerolls from mission tactics and Aquila formation for psychic shooting rerolls.
Maybe scale that back, but now I'm actually thinking some psychic shooting might not be a bad kill team to plan out. Frag drops and divination ML squads are probably going to be better overall, but this might add a little fun in the mix
That sounds profoundly annoying to both play and play against, since it'll inevitably have invisibility.
Some games, yeah. I personally wouldn't be fishing for it, probably just have each lib roll on separate disciplines, but some definitely would haha. Then again, the people who would fish for it would probably just be doing much more efficient things anyway.
stompygitz wrote: So would a terminator with meltafist + storm shield be a thing?
No, but if it was, it would be my build every time. Sadly, the Melta Fist idea kinda falls flat since it doesn't allow you to fire your Melta and another weapon in the same turn, just use the Melta and Fist in the same turn.
stompygitz wrote: So would a terminator with meltafist + storm shield be a thing?
No, but if it was, it would be my build every time. Sadly, the Melta Fist idea kinda falls flat since it doesn't allow you to fire your Melta and another weapon in the same turn, just use the Melta and Fist in the same turn.
Which is fine if you are standing next to something with an AV you wanted to ensure was popped, you wont be shooting a Heavy Flamer at a tank.
stompygitz wrote: So would a terminator with meltafist + storm shield be a thing?
No, but if it was, it would be my build every time. Sadly, the Melta Fist idea kinda falls flat since it doesn't allow you to fire your Melta and another weapon in the same turn, just use the Melta and Fist in the same turn.
Which is fine if you are standing next to something with an AV you wanted to ensure was popped, you wont be shooting a Heavy Flamer at a tank.
Yeah, but you can just punch a hole in the side of it and get the same result.
stompygitz wrote: So would a terminator with meltafist + storm shield be a thing?
No, but if it was, it would be my build every time. Sadly, the Melta Fist idea kinda falls flat since it doesn't allow you to fire your Melta and another weapon in the same turn, just use the Melta and Fist in the same turn.
Which is fine if you are standing next to something with an AV you wanted to ensure was popped, you wont be shooting a Heavy Flamer at a tank.
Yeah, but you can just punch a hole in the side of it and get the same result.
Well now you can shoot it with a melta and if it doenst blow up, punch it.
As has been said, Dark Angels have a good amount of Heresy-era toys lying about, as they never really got stuck into the Heresy quite as much as other legions.
The Dark Angels have loads of pre-Heresy equipment because they were the first legion created, and weren't created for any particular purpose other than to be the Emperor's Legion. The later legions all had more specific purposes than "be awesome".
CaptKaruthors wrote: Anyone know what the Harlequin formation does in this boxset? Did Harlequins gain a formation of any significance?
Since it looks like no one has answered this for you, it gives the harlequins the benefit of being able to take a second chance on their saves, only passing it on a 6, and gives Eldrad the Eternal Warrior rule
lipsdapips wrote: Have people seen these? Supposed boxes for release this weekend
Sorry if this has been posted already.
Yeah, it was posted up thread a while ago, but it is good to be reminded.
Just a reminder, the Deathwatch Land Raider is $80 USD and come with the Crusader upgrade sprue. That is an amazing deal! I may end up getting one myself.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
Due to the molded scrapes in the Blackshield's pauldron, one could definitely make it a little obvious what Chapter a Blackshield comes from. And I am definitely in the boat of wanting to make one of them a Traitor Legion member. It would be subtle though. Like he would have some blue with a red jaw showing through on the scrapes, or some violet. But I am leaning toward Watch Sergeants instead of Blackshields.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
I know I have slipped a couple of Alpha Legion shoulder pads onto some of my marines.
So far only one opponent has made mention of them.
I hadn't thought of a Night Lord or other obvious armour design. Some HH/30K armour designs would work nicely for that.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
OOO OOO, what is the Dark Angel going to do if he was a Fallen?
He would probably not rescue him if the chance was there, I doubt he would outright kill him. It would give into too much suspicion. Or he would forward the info to his chapter.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
OOO OOO, what is the Dark Angel going to do if he was a Fallen?
Certainly a good reason to have a Deathwatch v. Dark Angels battle.
Wow. I just read all the leaks. I played dark angels in 3rd as I loved playing deathwing with multiple heavies, options, and being an elite competaive outnumbered force. I then played demon hunters/grey knights as they did the same thing after the dark angels were nerfed. The dark angels bounced back, but my deathwing are still nerfed and have no real alpha strike (pure dw is not viable these days).
Deathwatch is like a black marine version of what I loved... super special weapons, multiple heavies, miniscule commando force, high tactics or get tabled easily. I'm sold and all in!
Damn I didn't want to buy another 200 dollar le codex... oh well its worth it! Looks like my dark angels will be wearing black and silver with their one chapter badge displayed proudly!
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
OOO OOO, what is the Dark Angel going to do if he was a Fallen?
Certainly a good reason to have a Deathwatch v. Dark Angels battle.
I recall the death watch rpg mentioning a battle in witch a black shield was kidnapped by the dark angles and then left.
This really makes me think the Death Watch was based on the Knight Watch from Song of Ice and Fire.
Which is cool.
Is there anything in the book that explains what exactly the DW's mission is versus other marines. OK Marines hate aliens, and DW really, really hate aliens.
Are they just an elite group who are very, very good at killing aliens? Or is there some special threat that the DW alone knows of and can fight?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: This really makes me think the Death Watch was based on the Knight Watch from Song of Ice and Fire.
Despite the fact that 40k is much older, I can see some similiarities
I would compare them to the Navy Seals: Elite warriors sent out to decapitate an enemy force by killing their leaders.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is there anything in the book that explains what exactly the DW's mission is versus other marines.
The DW operates on inquisitorial order, once an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor has invetistigated a potential threat.
In contrast, Grey Knights are more like terrorist attack response teams, i think. Because most of the demon incursions are quite small and therefore one could say that demons act like terrorists
Well the DWrpg which fleshed all of this out only came out a few years ago. So it's more than possible there is some inspiration drawn from them somewhere along the line.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
I think I'm just going to have an Ork Blackshield.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
I think I'm just going to have an Ork Blackshield.
Warhams-77 wrote: Pointed out by Atia on her WoS blog, the Watchmaster's halberd is from the Custodes armoury
Spoiler:
I hope the next HH game will come with at least a full squad of Custodian Guard
Sad panda rumored something about *custodes and sisters of silence* in a possible new HH starter game.
Yes I know but I hope it will be more than just a few monopose models. We dont know yet how the models will be in that next game. A multipart kit like the Deathwatch Veterans would be excellent. Silver Tower and Overkill are nice products, but I hope the HH game in fall 2016 will contain full kits again and kicks off the new SoS and Custodes ranges successfully. Death Masque is a nice combination of previouly released and new models, unlike Stormclaw and Deathstorm which had only two new character models each, and I hope they will continue the trend introducing new kits with big box games (and a large saving at day one), which are then sold individually half a year later. Monopose isnt a bad thing per se but it doesnt provide enough variety if you want to build up an army. With Custodes being a potential 30k and 40k army a full Custodes kit would make a lot of sense saleswise - so do proper MkIII and SOS kits. I wonder what miniatures the Thousand Sons in the game will get. As it is a boardgame with scenarios forces dont have to be even. Maybe GW will put the 1k Sons' Psychic Assassins we got told about at the FW Weekender in the board game? With Ahriman in the box it would make sense storywise.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: This really makes me think the Death Watch was based on the Knight Watch from Song of Ice and Fire.
Despite the fact that 40k is much older, I can see some similiarities
I'm thinking specifically of the whole 'ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies' deal. Of course that's lifted from the real life French Foreign Legion and probably other irregular armies.
And yes the Ork Black Sheild is brilliant, consider that stolen. Maybe do a whole theme, an Eldar, a Tau, a Necron... All with shoulder pads and backpacks.
And someone should definitely do a full on Chaos Marine with spikes and tentacles. Who me? heretic? No, no, never.
Regarding the shotgun + bolter: are you not losing out on an extra attack by removing the CCW? Or is that not a major concern, seeing as we want them to be shooting rather than charging?
jgfield79 wrote: Regarding the shotgun + bolter: are you not losing out on an extra attack by removing the CCW? Or is that not a major concern, seeing as we want them to be shooting rather than charging?
No, because you don't get an extra attack in the first place because they don't have twoCCWs, just one. So they end up with the same number of attacks anyway. There is literally no downside to the Bolter+Shotgun loadout over the Bolter+CCW or Shotgun+CCW loadouts.
RedFox wrote: Can you take the "sniper" bolter and the shotgun....sounds like the perfect combo
I don't think so -- because its special issue wargear. I'm pretty sure they FAQ'd the dubious chaining of swaps... i.e. you can't replace wargear and then replace the piece of wargear you just replaced. They way they wrote it though, does seem to make no issue of taking a boltgun, then trading your CCW for a shotgun
RedFox wrote: Can you take the "sniper" bolter and the shotgun....sounds like the perfect combo
Yes you can. You first swap your CC weapon to a bolter, then one bolter to stalker and the other to shotgun.
You can't swap gear like that. The rules don't give you permission to exchange a piece of gear, and then exchange that piece of gear for something else.
RedFox wrote: Can you take the "sniper" bolter and the shotgun....sounds like the perfect combo
Yes you can. You first swap your CC weapon to a bolter, then one bolter to stalker and the other to shotgun.
You can't swap gear like that. The rules don't give you permission to exchange a piece of gear, and then exchange that piece of gear for something else.
That's how C:SM bikers get their special weapons, and GW didn't FAQ that away. You trade bolt pistol for chainsword, then chainsword for special weapon.
If they wanted DW dudes to have shotgun/bolters is another issue though.
EDIT: Had to flip open my SM codex, and GW even models their bikers with special weapons. Seems legit to me.
Despite the fact that 40k is much older, I can see some similiarities
But this part of the Fluff is quite new and don't really match the old DW fluff. So here GoT got it first
Might be taking this a little OT, but I'm fairly sure Blackshields have been around since the DW were created. The Blackshields have existed for quite a while before this codex drop.
I personally already have two Blackshields in my Deathwatch army, Brothers Oberyn and Karrack.
No mention of Deathwatch in Scout Armour, huh. I might either have to repaint my Deathwatch Sniper Scouts into another Chapter, or I use them as count-as Deathwatch with Stalker Bolters. Would any of you guys see a problem in that?
Crimson wrote: Just realised that the frag cannon in the kit doesn't come with the similar big ammo back pack as the one in Overwatch. Mildly annoying.
This is one of the reasons I've been buying up the Imperial Fist frag cannon miniature off ebay every time one pops up under $10.
I'm at six now, once I find 8 it'll cover all my Frag units. Luckily, the shoulder pad is separate so I can still differentiate and give them different shoulders.
So if the DeathWatch are the trained, best of the best for killing xenos of all varieties, and Grey Knights are designed specifically for fighting daemons, does that mean that the other loyal space marine chapters are to focus mostly on fighting their chaos brethren? (in the fluff)
Edit: So about the story that comes with Death Masque
Spoiler:
Did Eldrad actually awaken Ynnead, or was the constellation he saw at the end another (possibly chaos) god stirring to life?)
tetrisphreak wrote: So if the DeathWatch are the trained, best of the best for killing xenos of all varieties, and Grey Knights are designed specifically for fighting daemons, does that mean that the other loyal space marine chapters are to focus mostly on fighting their chaos brethren? (in the fluff)
Edit: So about the story that comes with Death Masque
Spoiler:
Did Eldrad actually awaken Ynnead, or was the constellation he saw at the end another (possibly chaos) god stirring to life?)
Dark Angels are trained specifically for that (well, they're trained to capture the Fallen), but the rest of the marines are more "all-round". They fight whatever needs killing.
tetrisphreak wrote: So if the DeathWatch are the trained, best of the best for killing xenos of all varieties, and Grey Knights are designed specifically for fighting daemons, does that mean that the other loyal space marine chapters are to focus mostly on fighting their chaos brethren? (in the fluff)
Edit: So about the story that comes with Death Masque
Spoiler:
Did Eldrad actually awaken Ynnead, or was the constellation he saw at the end another (possibly chaos) god stirring to life?)
Dark Angels are trained specifically for that (well, they're trained to capture the Fallen), but the rest of the marines are more "all-round". They fight whatever needs killing.
Oh okay, cool. I haven't read much Dark Angels fluff as i've never been interested in that particular chapter. Is their term "Fallen" in reference to Renegades who've turned to chaos, or is it a more specific type of chaos marine?
RedFox wrote: DW vets comes with CCW and bolter. Swap bolter for stalker bolter and swap CCW for bolter....pretty simple
Yup. the hangup is whether or not the swapped bolter can be swapped again for the shotgun - Sniper/Shotty is the preferred FPS loadout for many people and would work well to having a versatile unit in 40K as well. As has been stated before, swapping a swap is how Codex: SM bikers get their special weapons so until a designer's note or FAQ specifically says "no you cannot do this", i'd say it's legit for the Deathwatch. And why shouldn't it be? A typical deathwatch army will only have about 30 models at 1500 points - they need to be versatile to hold their own. In the end they'll fail 3+ saves just like codex marines will when they get shot or assaulted.
I liked the idea of a Malleus Kill team with missiles for sitting in the back like devastators to hunt enemy heavy support - but then i saw the restriction that the unit must contain at least 2 thunder hammers or heavy thunder hammers. That's 60 points of wasted kit for a backfield unit - So now my Deathwatch heavy support squad will be an all-rounder Aquila KT instead. It's looking more and more like Aquila all around is the way to go unless you have a very specific opponent in mind when you're making your list, which reeks of list tailoring, which can make a person appear to be TFG. I don't want to be TFG...so Aquila!
tetrisphreak wrote: So if the DeathWatch are the trained, best of the best for killing xenos of all varieties, and Grey Knights are designed specifically for fighting daemons, does that mean that the other loyal space marine chapters are to focus mostly on fighting their chaos brethren? (in the fluff)
Edit: So about the story that comes with Death Masque
Spoiler:
Did Eldrad actually awaken Ynnead, or was the constellation he saw at the end another (possibly chaos) god stirring to life?)
Dark Angels are trained specifically for that (well, they're trained to capture the Fallen), but the rest of the marines are more "all-round". They fight whatever needs killing.
Oh okay, cool. I haven't read much Dark Angels fluff as i've never been interested in that particular chapter. Is their term "Fallen" in reference to Renegades who've turned to chaos, or is it a more specific type of chaos marine?
Lore wise after the Horus Heresy a large part of the Chapter stationed in Caliban reveled against their primarch under the belief they had betrayen them.
The conflict was quite epic and it ended in a massive warp storm and several of those *fallen*lost in time and space, the DA keep this as secret and try to capture those fallen ones whenever they pop without consideration to anyone.
the history it's way more tricky and that's pretty much the *DA version* the books may hint at other possibilities.
Marines are the ultimate all-around warrior for mankind needs, GK where designed against demons, and Deathwatch it's a self made special force to deal with Xenos outside the larger scale conflicts most of the normal marines are deployed for.
Those of you who enjoyed the possibilility of an Ork Blackshield I would encourage you to have a read of some creative fiction based on that concept during a Deathwatch RPG game.
IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FAR FUTURE, WAR RAGES THROUGHOUT THE GALAXY. MANKIND IS UNDER SIEGE ON ALL SIDES FROM XENOS, HERETICS, AND THE TAINT OF CHAOS. THE SPACE MARINES, THE IMPERIUM'S FINEST SOLDIERS, BRING WARTO THE ENEMIES OF MAN. THEIRS IS AN ENDLESS FIGHT, AS THEY WORK TO SAVE MANKIND FROM ALL ITS FOES.
(record needle scratch)
DIS AIN'T DERE STORY
SOMEWHERE IN DEEP SPACE, A BUNCH OF ORKS HAVE DONE DA IMPOSSIBLE! DEY'VE TRICKED DA IMPERIUM INTO THINKIN' DEY'Z SPESS MEHREENS! DA STUPID 'UMIES AIN'T EVA GONNA KNOW WHAT HIT'EM! OUT ON THE LOOTED REPULSIVE CRUISER "DA LOOTED KROOZA," TROUBLE BREWS...
tetrisphreak wrote: So if the DeathWatch are the trained, best of the best for killing xenos of all varieties, and Grey Knights are designed specifically for fighting daemons, does that mean that the other loyal space marine chapters are to focus mostly on fighting their chaos brethren? (in the fluff)
Edit: So about the story that comes with Death Masque
Spoiler:
Did Eldrad actually awaken Ynnead, or was the constellation he saw at the end another (possibly chaos) god stirring to life?)
Dark Angels are trained specifically for that (well, they're trained to capture the Fallen), but the rest of the marines are more "all-round". They fight whatever needs killing.
Oh okay, cool. I haven't read much Dark Angels fluff as i've never been interested in that particular chapter. Is their term "Fallen" in reference to Renegades who've turned to chaos, or is it a more specific type of chaos marine?
The Fallen are the Dark Angels who remained on Caliban, and went renegade/chaos at the end of the Horus Heresy (the reasons for which are hotly debated, and not entirely clear). At the end of the war, the DA forces are returning home, where they get fired on by their own brothers. Cue giant loyalist/traitor battle, which results in Caliban being destroyed, and DA's being flung through time and space. In order to hide this shameful secret, the DA now attempt to hunt down and capture the Fallen, most of whom have thrown in with the rest of the chaos forces.
This is also why the DA really don't like the Inquisition. They don't want them sticking their noses into DA business and uncovering this secret.
That's actually pretty cool! The first founding chapter with a dark secret in its past. I could totally see some fluff reasoning for DA black shields in a deathwatch force, trying to atone for heresy they committed in 30,000.
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
I think I'm just going to have an Ork Blackshield.
For funsies.
Don' ask me wut Chapta ahm frum!
Why does your Ork talk like a West Country farmer?
It doesn't even require any double trade shinanigans now that I look at it.
Somehow "Afraid not" translates to "Yes, but only if you switch out weapons in a specific manner" now.
It seems the impasse here is between intent and RAW. I have a bolter and a CCW. I trade the CCW for a bolter. cool, now i have 2 bolters. I trade the other one for a shotgun - all in the same order as the page is written for wargear. Whether it's modeled akimbo, or one in hand with the other slung around the back of the model, it's a legal loadout strictly RAW from the codex - it's not even super broken, it just adds versatility to an elite marine. Unless the wargear menu is amended, which it might easily be done so with a superscript "4" and then the legend says: "4- A model may not carry a shotgun and a bolter or combi-weapon at the same time."
Ahtman wrote: So any of them can replace a bolter with a shotgun? I can have five marines with shotguns?
/faint
Yeah, if we take it at the most conservative interpretation (and probably the intended one given how GW's designers have been FAQ'ing things) you can swap your special issue ammo bolter, for a deathwatch shotgun which has 3 ammo types:
So I kinda want to make a Kill Team just so I can make a Black Shield who is obviously from a traitor legion. Like really obvious. Like big Night Lord bat wings on head obvious. But with the shoulder pad symbol blacked out so in-universe nobody knows...
I got it. Rubric marine Black Shield. What chapter is Brother Amun-ra from? He wouldn't say...
I think I'm just going to have an Ork Blackshield.
For funsies.
Don' ask me wut Chapta ahm frum!
Why does your Ork talk like a West Country farmer?
DW Sergeant: So... what chapter are you from?
BS Ork: Itz a seekret.
DWS: Okay then. What skills do you posess?
BSO: Iz got dis 'ere big gun fing, an' oiz got red bootz soz I run fasta
DWS: Yes, but, like, what skills do you have?
BSO: I iz good wiv stelf.
DWS: "stelf"?
BSO: Stelf. Iz can 'ide werever I want and noboddy gonna no 'oo I iz.
DWS: Are you sure? You look like you'd stand out. I mean, power armour is hardly stealthy. Do you have a camo cloak or something?
Personal it sounds like just the sort of thing deathwatch would do. Sniper stalker bolt guns then when they get too close charge in and shotgun them in the face. I think this is the tradeoff for not being able to get CC specialists in the veteran squad itself and encourages you to add vanguard or the other bikers for versatility.
Also dat overwatch templates -.-.
I know that this might sound trite but damn did they knock the deathwatch book out of the park ruleswise for me.
I have spent so much time magnetizing, so that I could adopt as the situation changes it kind lost a bit of the soul of the game. However now I can make that guy with twin lightning claws, he is the twin lightning claws guy in the squad, or the heavy thunderhammer guy. Because its not a full 5 man squad its no big deal to make up 4-5 different guys to go in the strike forces depending on who they are bringing that battle. I have not been this excited to make specific characters, give them all names, etc in a long while. Time to bust out all the deathwatch books and get my fluff boner going.
I mean it will be so much fun to have different teams with different roles that kind of play out on the battle field.
Squad Zariel, target their infantry on that objective. Squad Sho'Karr eliminate that armored threat.
Super pumped!! Will have to see how much work it is going to take to get shotgun/Stalker on 5 guys as well as just brainstorm some combos as well as points. Its really tough because I want the OS, however it is hard to passup having all the special rules joined to the squad.
tetrisphreak wrote: True but if they do pass it on to the rules team we should see a post clarifying it on the Facebook page pretty quickly.
They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Somewhere in Nottingham, someone just reminded everyone why GW left social media.
Eh, maybe but the question was phrased politely and posters also expressed gratitude that they were being responded to. It's a small rules issue overall but full clarity benefits all the players in the long run so I think it's a good thing to be able to bring these questions semi-directly to those who write the rules.
tetrisphreak wrote: True but if they do pass it on to the rules team we should see a post clarifying it on the Facebook page pretty quickly.
They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Somewhere in Nottingham, someone just reminded everyone why GW left social media.
Eh, maybe but the question was phrased politely and posters also expressed gratitude that they were being responded to. It's a small rules issue overall but full clarity benefits all the players in the long run so I think it's a good thing to be able to bring these questions semi-directly to those who write the rules.
Yeah, I made sure I was overly grateful to them in posting additional replies.
Not sure if this has come up or if anyone cares but I emailed FW asking when we may see a list of IA Space Marine/ Imperial Units that can be take by Deathwatch. Their response was probably pretty much what you'd expect.
Me:
"Hello!
I was wondering when we may see a complete list of all the Space Marine/ Imperial models that can be used by a Deathwatch army. Is there a projected time table?"
Forgeworld:
"Thanks for contacting us. We know that the Forge Studio are working on several faq/errata documents to ease the connection between Citadel and Forge World rules. These can take time to complete as they are a small team with a very busy schedule. Rest assured that the Death Watch will get some love in the future but at the moment we don't know when that will be.
In the meantime we don't see any problem with using any of the units that are allowed for other Space Marine armies with your Death Watch force but we recommend talking this over with your gaming group first."
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
If nothing else, issues such as his may demonstrate to someone somewhere how loose and wooly their rules writing can be, and if it keeps happening maybe the penny will drop.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
I'm more concerned with the Deathwatch leaders being unable to take Stalker pattern Boltguns, seeing as the Relic ammo has a Stalker profile.
They might not be able to take a Storm Shield, but they can take the Dominus Aegis which is a Storm Shield for the whole squad if the model stays still.
I still don't get why they didn't just go Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, then say "swap Bolter for Ranged or Special, swap CCW for Melee, swap either for Storm Shield/other stuff".
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
I'm more concerned with the Deathwatch leaders being unable to take Stalker pattern Boltguns, seeing as the Relic ammo has a Stalker profile.
They might not be able to take a Storm Shield, but they can take the Dominus Aegis which is a Storm Shield for the whole squad if the model stays still.
Not quite, it's a 4++, and isn't very useful for a choppy squad that needs to keep moving.
Yodhrin wrote: I still don't get why they didn't just go Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, then say "swap Bolter for Ranged or Special, swap CCW for Melee, swap either for Storm Shield/other stuff".
Because when your methodology for writing rules is "Man, there are so many trees out here I can no longer see the forest!" (ie. "I know what I mean, so they'll know what I mean!") it's how we get mistakes like this.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
This 'no model, no rules' thing is getting silly. Sure, I can understand omitting rules if it is impossible to model the option, but there are space marine combi-weapons, they just happen to come in a different kit. A big part of appeal of Space Marines is that you can freely kitbast all the kits.
Bikers have the same issue. They don't have space marine bikes in their wargear. Noticed it when their twin-linked boltguns were listed, since that's usually in the space marine bike profile.
I'm curious if this is following a new rules format, or it's just complete lack of consistency.
Obviously they mean for you to mod3el the Space Marine bikers "levitating" on a stem from a flight stand over a biker base, so that it looks like they're riding an invisible bike. If they're not listing the bikes as wargear, you shouldn't have to show the models of them with bikes.
Crimson wrote: This 'no model, no rules' thing is getting silly. Sure, I can understand omitting rules if it is impossible to model the option, but there are space marine combi-weapons, they just happen to come in a different kit. A big part of appeal of Space Marines is that you can freely kitbast all the kits.
But...but..xthe hobby isn't kitbashing but buying models!
Yodhrin wrote: I still don't get why they didn't just go Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, then say "swap Bolter for Ranged or Special, swap CCW for Melee, swap either for Storm Shield/other stuff".
Because that would give them an additional CC attack as standard which is clearly something they didn't want to do.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
... >.<
If we go off what they have a model of and dont have a model of, they do have models of Jump Pack Chaplains, but that is something not allowed in the codex.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
No no, that is a Cataphractii Captain - you don't have that option either -,-
Its the Terminator Captain as stated in the Angels of Death supplement.
Spoiler:
This 128-page softback supplement is designed for any Codex: Space Marines army. Included within:
- a guide to Strike Forces and Chapter organisation, including 4 Army List Entry datasheets and 14 Formations;
- background and organisation on White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard Chapters, as well as their typical Strike Forces;
- rules for the Terminator Captain, Cataphractii Terminators and Contemptor Dreadnought;
- Warlord Traits, Relics and Tactical Objectives;
- four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch)
Crimson wrote: This 'no model, no rules' thing is getting silly. Sure, I can understand omitting rules if it is impossible to model the option, but there are space marine combi-weapons, they just happen to come in a different kit. A big part of appeal of Space Marines is that you can freely kitbast all the kits.
This is what makes the lack of Apothecary's so odd as the parts in the command squad set are totally compatible with the DW parts.
Crimson wrote: This 'no model, no rules' thing is getting silly. Sure, I can understand omitting rules if it is impossible to model the option, but there are space marine combi-weapons, they just happen to come in a different kit. A big part of appeal of Space Marines is that you can freely kitbast all the kits.
This is what makes the lack of Apothecary's so odd as the parts in the command squad set are totally compatible with the DW parts.
The ability to add an apothecary to each veteran squad so the kill teams have FNP would have been absolutely amazing. Well, i guess there's always reason to ally in some blood angels, put jump packs on the sanguinary priests and attach them to the deathwatch teams. Deathwatch gain deepstrike in a black spear detachment so the unit can enter the battlefield deep striking.
Yodhrin wrote: I still don't get why they didn't just go Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, then say "swap Bolter for Ranged or Special, swap CCW for Melee, swap either for Storm Shield/other stuff".
Because that would give them an additional CC attack as standard which is clearly something they didn't want to do.
But giving them all multiple two-handed ranged weapons was? Frankly I think it's more likely they just didn't have a clue what they were doing.
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
No no, that is a Cataphractii Captain - you don't have that option either -,-
Its the Terminator Captain as stated in the Angels of Death supplement.
Spoiler:
This 128-page softback supplement is designed for any Codex: Space Marines army. Included within:
- a guide to Strike Forces and Chapter organisation, including 4 Army List Entry datasheets and 14 Formations;
- background and organisation on White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard Chapters, as well as their typical Strike Forces;
- rules for the Terminator Captain, Cataphractii Terminators and Contemptor Dreadnought;
- Warlord Traits, Relics and Tactical Objectives;
- four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch)
Yodhrin wrote: I still don't get why they didn't just go Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW, then say "swap Bolter for Ranged or Special, swap CCW for Melee, swap either for Storm Shield/other stuff".
Because that would give them an additional CC attack as standard which is clearly something they didn't want to do.
But giving them all multiple two-handed ranged weapons was? Frankly I think it's more likely they just didn't have a clue what they were doing.
Fortunately the rules no longer care about how many hands guns might require.
Crimson wrote: This 'no model, no rules' thing is getting silly. Sure, I can understand omitting rules if it is impossible to model the option, but there are space marine combi-weapons, they just happen to come in a different kit. A big part of appeal of Space Marines is that you can freely kitbast all the kits.
This is what makes the lack of Apothecary's so odd as the parts in the command squad set are totally compatible with the DW parts.
I thought the command squad was still the old style arms-with-hands?
Cephalobeard wrote: They just posted saying they were passing it on to them, because we kept grilling them.
Good. This is a clear case of not understanding the rules that they've written themselves, so it should be clarified.
Hopefully we can eliminate other idiotic things, like DW leaders in Terminator armour being unable to take Storm Shields because seriously what the feth is up with that?
He's also not allowed to replace the Storm Bolter with a Combi-Weapon if he takes Terminator Armor, where as the Librarian is.
There is no plastic Terminator Captain model with combi weapon afaik.
There is a plastic Terminator Librarian with combi weapon afaik.
No no, that is a Cataphractii Captain - you don't have that option either -,-
Its the Terminator Captain as stated in the Angels of Death supplement.
Spoiler:
This 128-page softback supplement is designed for any Codex: Space Marines army. Included within:
- a guide to Strike Forces and Chapter organisation, including 4 Army List Entry datasheets and 14 Formations;
- background and organisation on White Scars, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard Chapters, as well as their typical Strike Forces;
- rules for the Terminator Captain, Cataphractii Terminators and Contemptor Dreadnought;
- Warlord Traits, Relics and Tactical Objectives;
- four complete psychic disciplines available to Space Marines Librarians of all Chapters (including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwatch)
You're going to argue with Atia about this?
I dont think anyone is arguing with her, more pointing out that since what she says is the way of things, that it is no less dumb for GW to do it that way considering everything out there.
Scott-S6 wrote: I thought the command squad was still the old style arms-with-hands?
All it needs is a shoulder pad from the upgrade sprue. Actually scratch that, I just checked the sprue and the command squad kit already comes with two DW shoulder pads Any DW specific weapons can use the arms from the veterans kit.
So Atia posted an image that shows the current setup of the Watch Companies. Artemis is the Watch Captain of Watch Company Tertius (3rd Company). My Crimson FISTS are the 3rd Company(decided immediately when I built my Captain back when I first started). My Blood Angels are the 3rd Company(decided when I bought Deathstorm when it came out). My Deathwatch will be the 3rd Company.
Weird little tidbit, I am also the third child in my family. Perhaps the universe is trying to tell me something.
Also, going back to the shotgun and Bolter issue, GW either has to allow it, or they have to say no special weapons on SM Bikes. Also, I really hope they fix it so a Watch Captain can take a Stalker Bolter. That way there is a reason for the Stalker profile of the Banebolts.
Also, going back to the shotgun and Bolter issue, GW either has to allow it, or they have to say no special weapons on SM Bikes. Also, I really hope they fix it so a Watch Captain can take a Stalker Bolter. That way there is a reason for the Stalker profile of the Banebolts.
Or they'll just pull a John Madden and make a random ass ruling.
This suits me just fine.
