To me the thumb that we can visibly see looks like it belongs to a terminator if anything. Maybe the artwork of the lantern mace dude is a termie sorcerer? Or maybe multipart with options?
Gotta say I wasn't too interested until the other terminator teases now this might be a day one buy for me
I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,
Smellingsalts wrote: I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,
It’s also bringing in new blood. The new players I see at the shop are picking up Primaris and avoiding the old marines. Gw just needs to finish out the line a bit more.
Smellingsalts wrote: I like the Primaris. I think GW made them because 1) They are closer to the correct scale for space marines, the aesthetic is closer to the fluff. and 2) because they needed something else for all those salty marine players who have all the marines they will ever need, to buy,
Assuming these Shadow Spear Chaos miniatures will be the same size as the BSF Chaos Marines, the idea of "They're meant to be closer to true-scale" for Primaris doesn't really make sense to me. Compared to non-Space Marine Miniatures they're definitely more accurate in size, but the idea falls apart to me because of the non-Primaris Space Marine miniatures that are still being released, specifically those BSF chaos and now these. Space Marines and Chaos have had a size-increase over the past few years but are still smaller than Primaris from what i've seen of comparison photos, so surely they're just bigger miniatures that represent something that fluff-wise is a bigger Space Marine. If the Primaris are bigger because they're meant to be a miniature version of true-scale Space Marines, then the problem instead moves to them being the wrong size to be Primaris Marines, so now we don't have true-scale Primaris Miniatures and Chaos etc are the wrong size.
Irbis wrote: Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.
I said Forge World kit. Pay attention.
Crimson wrote: I have to say that I find it massively ironic that the same person who constantly cries about GW removing rule options for stuff there are no bits in the kit seems to be unable of gluing a heavy weapon from another kit on a CSM.
I'd prefer if you just addressed me directly than little snide side remarks like this. And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.
But, as I've found with many people on this subject so far, you're completely missing the point. The point is that if there isn't a kit for something, there's a better chance of that unit rule being removed from the game. If they never make a Havoc kit, there's a good chance of Havocs going away, just like the half-dozen HQ's from various armies that vanished because they don't make that specific kit (think of all the Ork and Marine HQs that don't exist in their Codex these days).
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'd prefer if you just addressed me directly than little snide side remarks like this. And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.
I think it was clear anough that it was directed at you.
And the idea that I don't know how to kitbash is ridiculous.
I must go by what you actually post.
But, as I've found with many people on this subject so far, you're completely missing the point. The point is that if there isn't a kit for something, there's a better chance of that unit rule being removed from the game. If they never make a Havoc kit, there's a good chance of Havocs going away, just like the half-dozen HQ's from various armies that vanished because they don't make that specific kit (think of all the Ork and Marine HQs that don't exist in their Codex these days).
So all this time you actually meant that you don't want Havoc rules to be removed, and don't actually care about the new models? There is no way that anyone could have concluded that by the stuff you actually said.
Voss wrote: Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)
It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.
I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.
Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.
Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.
I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.
I think its just been a really long time since someone at GW took a step back and said "what is the vision for how these play?" You look at newer armies and there is some central sense of how that army plays and you'll see that theme reinforced and reemphasized throughout. Chaos however suffer from something similar to loyalist marines where GW has largely left that theme for the player to come up with and they try to just give us a volume of units to choose from... additionally chaos more uniquely suffers from "can't be as good as loyalist marines". That mindset might otherwise get overridden if there was a central theme to CSM.
I agree there really should be some distinction between Renegades and Traitor legions. I think part of the disconnect is that GW sees CSM and the former legions very differently than what people want. The main thing many people rather overlook is that GW sees the forces of chaos struggling to maintain much of their technology, they see them as struggling to even have enough ammunition... they see CSM as small groups out for themselves forming up into a warband, rather than an army composed of specialists. In many ways I think GW sees Renegades as a more cohesive of an army than most of the legions, rather than legions each being a monolithic hold over from the heresy era. There is however a lot in between and plenty of room for a vision for the army to work with.
There are many things I think CSM should get, but I don't think CSM should have Primaris stat lines. However I think this speaks to one of the biggest gaps in how CSM are represented by GW and ultimately lead to what is uniquely chaos...
What does being millenniums old mean to a marine? That is just the starting point for much of the CSM legions. Its a type of Veteran-ship that exceeds even the most veteran loyalists. Even without the time dilation of the warp there are basic CSM marines that are older than the oldest loyalist space marines, short of the one Primarch. Almost all the 40k era CSM should be distillation of their legions, they are the best and most ruthless... anyone that's weak would long ago have died... but you would never know it looking at the rules.
What does selling your soul to chaos get you? Is it just corruption? What does it mean to be corrupted? GW treats it almost entirely as a downside. Its more than just marks, mutations, and power... and while it occasionally means death, those marines are dead and not in our army.
What does it mean to be a heretic? GW treats it only as worshiping chaos, but there are a variety of heresies and CSM would likely try them all out just to say they've done it.
Any one of those things could easily justify CSM as being more than they are, and having the stats or rules to rival Primaris.
I think the Thousand Sons and Deathguard codices show how all the former Legions should generally look and function. The legions should each be something on the spectrum of Elite armies making use of what ever crazy means they've found to enhance their capabilities and distinguish themselves, and then supplementing their numbers with lowly mortal chaff. To some degree the Legions shouldn't have any basic tactical csm... they should all be something closer to chosen, possessed, or indoctrinated into one of the cults of the big 4 gods. And while you certainly could set that theme by making representative choices for your CSM, you don't get any of the advantages that are usually rewarded for playing something as thematic.
Short of things like autocannons, those more conventional and more mundane marines are really what distinguish Renegades from the Legions. I don't think they need to build in Traitor Guard and all their vehicles to justify a Renegade marine army. I think there are plenty of facets that GW could choose to emphasize to make them something distinct. Some things would be as easy as recognizing that when a Renegade chapter is described as specializing in drop pod assaults, they should have access to drop pods... bringing in to the Renegade marine army a few more of those units that haven't necessarily broken down yet. Renegades all too often are described as having a deteriorating and ever more crazed psychology... or genetic mutations that have finally come to the surface and crossing that line the Inquisition has drawn... they should have elements and units that end up one step past the Blood Angel Death Company or Space Wolf Wulfen... Firing a plasma gun on overcharge is something risky and I guess only recently sanctioned, but Renegades would do that sort of thing without sanction; they sorta become that part of the narrative that explains why a millennia from now they would no longer have access to all the equipment they've worn out, burnt out, or just can't maintain.
Wayniac wrote: I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.
It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).
Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.
I like the idea of a Traitor Astartes force having to use less and less "premium" equipment, but the whole sale change from "We love the Emperor" to "We hate the Emperor... wait where did my Gravpistol go?" is a little stark. It's certainly an area worth exploring from a fluff, rules and miniature perspective, but we seem to just get more spikey Marines with varying levels of weird mutations.
It's odd given how many types of Loyalist there are, yet Chaos (until recently) has mostly been lumped with a one-size fits all methodology.
Crimson wrote: So all this time you actually meant that you don't want Havoc rules to be removed, and don't actually care about the new models? There is no way that anyone could have concluded that by the stuff you actually said.
Still missing the point...
I care about both, because both feed into one another.
No model = no rule.
That is the modern GW standard post-CHS. GW not updating the Havoc kit gives us a greater chance of the unit becoming an 'Index Only' thing until those go out of print. I want new Havoc minis because they don't have a plastic kit, and a plastic Havoc kit would be fantastic.
I think it's a safe bet that Havocs will stay. If they were going to get "indexed" they never would have made it into the 8th CSM Codex.
Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs"
This whole release has me very excited. I've had a Black Legion army on the project list for over 5 years and never got around to it because the range was very "meh" (thankfully DG gave some hope to Legions)
NurglesR0T wrote: I think it's a safe bet that Havocs will stay. If they were going to get "indexed" they never would have made it into the 8th CSM Codex.
Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs"
This whole release has me very excited. I've had a Black Legion army on the project list for over 5 years and never got around to it because the range was very "meh" (thankfully DG gave some hope to Legions)
I'm pretty excited to paint something new. I think I've masted painting blue
Yeah... the idea that if Havocs won't get new models right now, they will be squatted seems pretty paranoid. Also, they're literally just CSM with heavy weapons, and I really doubt those ever go away as long as CSM exist.
Wayniac wrote: I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.
It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).
Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.
Are you saying you don't remember the story where a Techmarine goes into the Fortress Monastarius armory and finds several crates marked "In Case of Heresy"?
GW has seemingly hand waved away the differences by insisting that those are pieces of technology that are harder to maintain... which might be a plausible explanation if it weren't for the fact CSM still have ships, teleporters, and any number of more advance technologies they're able to keep operating. I still find it funny when GW did something for Crimson Slaughter and stated they specialized in Drop Pod assaults... yet no drop pods to be found.
You would think with the distinction between styles of play this edition, GW would have brought back the old 2nd ed rule where we "Can take any unit from the Space Marine codex" for a markup as a Narrative only option. The loss of that is kinda the source for some of the logic gaps in CSM.
I they aren't, I have to give up all hope that GW makes any sense anymore. That seems like a no-brainer dual-kit.
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I'm probably in the minority... but I hope they just fold the two units together... and we go back to Oblits with equally adaptable ranged and close combat capabilities.
There's a lot of things that Chaos needs to represent, and sometimes they can all show up in the same list (or even detachment.)
1) Original traitor marines
2) Renegade marines
3) New Chaos marines
Cult Legions should be all 1). Renegades should be mostly 2 and maybe some 1) as elites. Iron Warriors are 1 and 3. Black Legion could be all 3.
The best way to resolve the Original Traitors issue is to have them be troops in original traitor armies, much like Cult Marines currently are. Armies like Black Legion and perhaps even IW should be able to have them as troops, or at least as elites with ObSec.
Wayniac wrote: I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.
It's been an issue for some times (especially since the absolute mess that was the 4th Ed Codex).
Traitor Astartes and the Traitor Legions are two distinct entities, and for a lot of us we think it's weird that once you run to the EoT to escape the Imperium you give up your Land Speeders, Razorbacks, Plasma Cannons, Cyclone Launchers, Multi-Meltas (except on your Dreads, who all go crazy for some reason) and yet somehow find massive stashes of autocannon-based weaponry.
Are you saying you don't remember the story where a Techmarine goes into the Fortress Monastarius armory and finds several crates marked "In Case of Heresy"?
GW has seemingly hand waved away the differences by insisting that those are pieces of technology that are harder to maintain... which might be a plausible explanation if it weren't for the fact CSM still have ships, teleporters, and any number of more advance technologies they're able to keep operating. I still find it funny when GW did something for Crimson Slaughter and stated they specialized in Drop Pod assaults... yet no drop pods to be found.
You would think with the distinction between styles of play this edition, GW would have brought back the old 2nd ed rule where we "Can take any unit from the Space Marine codex" for a markup as a Narrative only option. The loss of that is kinda the source for some of the logic gaps in CSM.
Yeah I really don't get why GW does what they do with Chaos, and try to shoehorn warbands and lump traitors from the heresy and recently turned chapters into the same bucket. They should absolutely split them because those factions do not behave like each other. Same like they have all but gotten rid of the stuff that made each Legion unique; it's why I pine for the days of 3.5 because despite all its brokenness that's what made that book so great: No legion played like the other. Your legion made a statement about you, and what your playstyle was and how it behaved. For some reason ever since 4th edition they abandoned everything that made 3.5 good and doubled-down on what the 3.0 codex did, make Chaos bland and uninspiring.
I really chalk it up to the fact that nobody there is passionate like Pete Haines was about Chaos. Sure he made his Iron Warriors a little too good, but you could tell by reading the Codex that he genuinely was a Chaos player through and through and wanted Chaos to reflect the fluff as much as possible, which is why that book IMHO stands as one of if not the best codex GW has ever put out just by how much it captured the feel of the army.
That's what they need to bring back. Bring back what made th Traitor Legions feel like veterans of the long war, the bitter memories of days remembered only in legends, the fallen angels thought banished forever to the underworld. And keep Renegades as their own thing. Even add a rule letting them use codex space marines with some drawbacks. But renegades are not traitor legions ,and shoulnd't be using the same things with the possible exception of the Red Corsairs who have been around a while.
boundless08 wrote: To me the thumb that we can visibly see looks like it belongs to a terminator if anything. Maybe the artwork of the lantern mace dude is a termie sorcerer?
That is a good observiation; the hand is clearly a bit bigger than the current CSM. However, if you have a look at the new CSM in the original post, they also seem to have bigger hands than before.
So I guess this is a power armored sorcerer / apostle.
This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.
Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.
New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators
So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box
fraser1191 wrote: This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.
Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.
New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators
So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box
I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.
fraser1191 wrote: This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.
Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.
New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators
So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box
I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.
my guess is Shadowspear at the start of the month, and then a whole chaos range throughout march, likely capped by Abbaddon the dispoiler. during the maonth, or the next month we'll get a splash release of the vanguard primaris.
fraser1191 wrote: This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.
Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.
New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators
So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box
I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.
my guess is Shadowspear at the start of the month, and then a whole chaos range throughout march, likely capped by Abbaddon the dispoiler. during the maonth, or the next month we'll get a splash release of the vanguard primaris.
Oh there's too many kits for it to be one box release which is crazy.
Well theres some sort of Megaboralis event going on March 15th and 16th at the citadel. So I don't know if they expect players to have these new models for it or not.
fraser1191 wrote: This release has felt pretty dry. All there's been lately was photos on the rumor engine. I need more than a picture of a dudes arm or a book.
Mostly I just wanna know the contents of the box since this is looking to be a massive chaos release and I think there's no way all this can fit in one box.
New summomer
New chaos marines
Most likely new possessed
New obliterators/mutilators
The tick
Possible new terminators
So unless this is a super lopsided box I can't see all this going in the box
I think a lot of this newer stuff isn't part of Shadow Spear. It's probably a further Chaos release for the second vigilus book. These terminators or whatever they are will probably come out when Abbadon does.
Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.
Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.
At this point it would be super weird if GW didn't release an updated codex. Rules often sell models; I'm sure GW is aware of that.
A reason to believe there will be no new codex is that the Tick seems to be the sole new unit, whose rules could just as well be included in the Shadow Spear box.
Could potentially even be a new SM / CSM codex. They were the first ones out of the gate so could use an update and a new model range is a good excuse for a new book.
At this point it would be super weird if GW didn't release an updated codex. Rules often sell models; I'm sure GW is aware of that.
A reason to believe there will be no new codex is that the Tick seems to be the sole new unit, whose rules could just as well be included in the Shadow Spear box.
Supposedly the Daemon Sorcerer and the Possessed are also new units. But those are also both in the Shadowspear box.
NurglesR0T wrote: Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs".
I'd be totally cool with that. It could be an expansion of the basic concept of Chaos Space Marine squads to better reflect their Legion origins.
Crimson wrote: Yeah... the idea that if Havocs won't get new models right now, they will be squatted seems pretty paranoid.
Tell that to all the Nob Bikers, non-Mega Armoured KFF Meks, and the host of other things that have suffered as a result of no model = no rule.
I mean, do I actually think GW will squat Havocs? No. Not really. But I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I'm just more surprised that Possessed and now, it seems, Terminators would get a second go around before Havocs even got their first.
Crimson wrote: Also, they're literally just CSM with heavy weapons, and I really doubt those ever go away as long as CSM exist.
And Guard minis with Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist, yet the GSC entry for Brood Brother squads only lets them get Flamers and Grenade Launchers because that's all that's on the sprue.
Again, not saying it will happen, just that we shouldn't be surprised if it does.
BrianDavion wrote: I'e got a hunch we're going to see Havocs. I bet oblits will be a duel kit with mutilators too
God I hope so. It'd be such a waste not to.
Red_Five wrote: You've had like 20 years to buy them. If you don't already own them, buy them now. Let everyone else have cool new sculpts.
My point is that I think of all the ancient minis in GW's range (Phoenix Lords, Eldar Avatar, a couple of Space Wolves, Vyper Jetbike, Marine Bikes/Attack Bikes), the Phoenix Lords are the only ones I'd consider timeless. Baharroth and Fuegan are works of art IMO, and losing them would be a tragedy.
NurglesR0T wrote: Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs".
I'd be totally cool with that. It could be an expansion of the basic concept of Chaos Space Marine squads to better reflect their Legion origins.
Crimson wrote: Yeah... the idea that if Havocs won't get new models right now, they will be squatted seems pretty paranoid.
Tell that to all the Nob Bikers, non-Mega Armoured KFF Meks, and the host of other things that have suffered as a result of no model = no rule.
I mean, do I actually think GW will squat Havocs? No. Not really. But I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I'm just more surprised that Possessed and now, it seems, Terminators would get a second go around before Havocs even got their first.
Crimson wrote: Also, they're literally just CSM with heavy weapons, and I really doubt those ever go away as long as CSM exist.
And Guard minis with Plasma Guns and Meltaguns exist, yet the GSC entry for Brood Brother squads only lets them get Flamers and Grenade Launchers because that's all that's on the sprue.
Again, not saying it will happen, just that we shouldn't be surprised if it does.
BrianDavion wrote: I'e got a hunch we're going to see Havocs. I bet oblits will be a duel kit with mutilators too
God I hope so. It'd be such a waste not to.
Red_Five wrote: You've had like 20 years to buy them. If you don't already own them, buy them now. Let everyone else have cool new sculpts.
My point is that I think of all the ancient minis in GW's range (Phoenix Lords, Eldar Avatar, a couple of Space Wolves, Vyper Jetbike, Marine Bikes/Attack Bikes), the Phoenix Lords are the only ones I'd consider timeless. Baharroth and Fuegan are works of art IMO, and losing them would be a tragedy.
Amazing someone can spell Maugan wrong twice in a row.
NurglesR0T wrote: Worst case, there may not be a kit called "Havocs" but change the way a normal CSM unit is constructed. An option to give up to 4 models (or more!?) heavy weapons, functionally they are now "havocs".
I'd be totally cool with that. It could be an expansion of the basic concept of Chaos Space Marine squads to better reflect their Legion origins.
How about going further... between the Legion origins, the we’re not loyalists - we don’t need the adhere to loyalist doctrine, the rag tag state of many chaos warbands, and GW’s self imposed need to represent renegades in the same Codex... maybe the most basic CSM squad should be something more elite, more like chosen, with all their weapon options ...ultimately tailorable to represent all those different facets.
Then again with this release seemingly built around Black Legion and who could have chosen as troops maybeas this hypothetical do-all unit is as uniquely their’s like how Templar’s have crusade squads.
Looks like a Mutilator to me. Seems to match the style of the new Obliterators, especially the pauldron (what little we can see of it) not being a standard power armour or terminator pauldron shape.
I think it's Mutilators. Some people have said Possessed (and that hand sure does look possessed) but it doesn't seem like GW anymore to make a visual option that can't be taken; however this means if it IS Possessed, it's likely they are getting their rules revamped and maybe getting options (maybe they really will do the suggestion I've seen pitched around and make Possessed the Chaos Primaris equivalent)
I'm not convinced we're getting new terminators. I'm thinking they may be bodyguards included in the box with the new Abaddon to make it more expensive protect him.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: I'm not convinced we're getting new terminators. I'm thinking they may be bodyguards included in the box with the new Abaddon to make it more expensive protect him.
Latro_ wrote: wow this chaos release is shaping up to rival the dark eldar range update
Eh. Aside from the not-a-stalk tank, This lacks the vehicle upgrades to match the DE update.
It also doesn't seem to be saddled with the monopose finecast failures of the DE update, where you could see GW give up and stop caring.
At this point I'm worried that all these little pieces make it look like a bigger update than it actually is, and the traditional 'chaos disappointment' will set in.
Latro_ wrote: wow this chaos release is shaping up to rival the dark eldar range update
Eh. Aside from the not-a-stalk tank, This lacks the vehicle upgrades to match the DE update.
It also doesn't seem to be saddled with the monopose finecast failures of the DE update, where you could see GW give up and stop caring.
At this point I'm worried that all these little pieces make it look like a bigger update than it actually is, and the traditional 'chaos disappointment' will set in.
DE update had nothing to do with Finecast, that came out after both them and Grey Knights. I've got Lelith, an Archon, and a Succubus all in metal, before things converted over.
That arm, I'm going with Mutilator. Looks bigger than a standard Posessed.
Damn sonnnnn, I'm so hyped. Looking forward to finally doing a Crimson Slaughter army now.
Looks like that new Daemon Rumour Engine is from the possessed, going off that vid, the possessed to his left looks like he has the same hand.
Latro_ wrote: wow this chaos release is shaping up to rival the dark eldar range update
Eh. Aside from the not-a-stalk tank, This lacks the vehicle upgrades to match the DE update.
It also doesn't seem to be saddled with the monopose finecast failures of the DE update, where you could see GW give up and stop caring.
At this point I'm worried that all these little pieces make it look like a bigger update than it actually is, and the traditional 'chaos disappointment' will set in.
DE update had nothing to do with Finecast, that came out after both them and Grey Knights. I've got Lelith, an Archon, and a Succubus all in metal, before things converted over.
It was done in chunks over a fairly lengthy period. By the end there were wracks (though plastic, not finecast, though overly monopose) and grotesques, which were notably a single version and finecast. Beast units were as well iirc. Mandrakes and incubi underwent conversion fairly quickly, and weren't good to start with. The DE update started strong and ended in confusion, failure and an AWOL flyer.
But still, the relevant point is that most of these bits can easily be from a small number of kits. This shouldn't be hyped as a huge release.
Mandragola wrote: I really hope this is a proper release and not just loads of pictures of the same guys.
The possessed guy looks like the one off the cover to me. I wonder if he’s a new kind of character, rather than a squad leader.
People are asking why they’d replace the possessed models before assorted older stuff. What if they aren’t, but arecjust giving you a character?
Sorry if this sounds kind of negative. It would just be a shame if people built this up to be more than it is (or might be) and ended up disappointed.
Yeah, I've kinda been thinking the same lately. The Possessed in all the art seems like it might just be a character that accompanies the Master of Possession, and many of the model previews are just for him and potentially a Terminator character. The only models we know for sure are coming are the Master of Possessed characters, Spider/Tick and Oblits. But we don't know 100% for sure if the Oblits will be a dual kit with Mutilators (hope so) or if the Chaos Marines shown so far are anything more than just one-offs in the box set (a la Black Stone Fortress).
Everything else could entirely be just for Character exclusive models that come in Shadow Spear. I hope this isn't the case, but it could be
Looks great to me! I want shadow spear mainly for the Primaris but the chaos stuff will definitely be used. I am thinking of either a Red Corsairs force or Iron warriors, in also slightly tempted by word bearers too!
Seems to me like chaos is really winning this fight. Sounds like all the talk about the Imperium being divided into two sections may be coming true
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Virules wrote: Man, I wish we would just get a real look at all the rules from Shadowspear and the new Chaos Vigilus detachments. The wait is agonizing.
I'm hopeful that "Daemonkin" is going to be the catch-all term for Possessed/Obliterators/Mutilators and not a codex focus of their own. Maybe the Chaos version of Primaris.
I think it is more likely to refer to a specific subfaction that will be getting detachment rules in the next Vigilus book, like Siege Breaker cohorts or Indomitus Veterans, which will give buffs to certain keywords and provide a couple of uniwue strategems, a relic, and a warlord trait.
ph34r wrote: Very nervous about the 'daemon-kin' nature.
My Iron Warriors would abhor the concept of mutated, daemonic infantry. Except Obliterators who are too far gone and valuable.
Daemon engines are fine.
Given the primaris mollywhopped chaos all over the galaxy in the indomitus crusade I think a lot of old guard traitor legionaries (the few that survived) are going to take a new look at chaos.
My Iron Warriors will be embracing chaos. Its just creepy techno organic sorcery is all. Nothing to be afraid of.
I'm starting to think the new obliterators are replacing mutilators too. They've got some bits that are melee oriented (Powerfists/Their Mutated Claws/etc). I'd bet they'll probably fill both roles at the same time instead of having two units for two roles.
Wayniac wrote: I'm hopeful that "Daemonkin" is going to be the catch-all term for Possessed/Obliterators/Mutilators and not a codex focus of their own. Maybe the Chaos version of Primaris.
I'm thinking you might be correct.
I'm also thinking we might see updated Marine/CSM books with the Vanguard and Daemonkin stuff(respectively) added in.
I wonder if we might see any terrain with this round of releases? A demonic forge that's Sector Mechanicus compatible, like the GSC drill would be cool.
Wayniac wrote: I'm hopeful that "Daemonkin" is going to be the catch-all term for Possessed/Obliterators/Mutilators and not a codex focus of their own. Maybe the Chaos version of Primaris.
I'm thinking you might be correct.
I'm also thinking we might see updated Marine/CSM books with the Vanguard and Daemonkin stuff(respectively) added in.
Those units have kinda been in a unique space between books, being able to benefit from both chaos codices. I wouldn't be surprised if GW uses Daemonkin as a new keyword to prevent some of that cross codex play. From what they've said about the new daemon engine, there does appear to be a theme of that cross codex interplay behind this release.
From a narrative standpoint with the wider incursion of the warp into normal space it would make sense that we'd see more possessed like csm emerging. I'd also bet there will be more than one type of possessed. The daemonic incursion is a way GW will give character to this period after the fall of Cadia.
cole1114 wrote:I'm starting to think the new obliterators are replacing mutilators too. They've got some bits that are melee oriented (Powerfists/Their Mutated Claws/etc). I'd bet they'll probably fill both roles at the same time instead of having two units for two roles.
I thought something similar. I also had the idea that as an alternative to just melding those two units together, what if the kit allows you to build obliterators and mutilators as we currently know them but if we also see GW introduce a new unit entry representing that next step up from Obliterators and Mutilators, something like as you say have both melee and ranged capabilities.
Wayniac wrote: I'm hopeful that "Daemonkin" is going to be the catch-all term for Possessed/Obliterators/Mutilators and not a codex focus of their own. Maybe the Chaos version of Primaris.
I'm thinking you might be correct.
I'm also thinking we might see updated Marine/CSM books with the Vanguard and Daemonkin stuff(respectively) added in.
Those units have kinda been in a unique space between books, being able to benefit from both chaos codices. I wouldn't be surprised if GW uses Daemonkin as a new keyword to prevent some of that cross codex play. From what they've said about the new daemon engine, there does appear to be a theme of that cross codex interplay behind this release.
From a narrative standpoint with the wider incursion of the warp into normal space it would make sense that we'd see more possessed like csm emerging. I'd also bet there will be more than one type of possessed. The daemonic incursion is a way GW will give character to this period after the fall of Cadia.
cole1114 wrote:I'm starting to think the new obliterators are replacing mutilators too. They've got some bits that are melee oriented (Powerfists/Their Mutated Claws/etc). I'd bet they'll probably fill both roles at the same time instead of having two units for two roles.
I thought something similar. I also had the idea that as an alternative to just melding those two units together, what if the kit allows you to build obliterators and mutilators as we currently know them but if we also see GW introduce a new unit entry representing that next step up from Obliterators and Mutilators, something like as you say have both melee and ranged capabilities.
IIRC and I'm going back a long time so could be misremembering, Obliterators originally were like this. Melee weapons (e.g. powerfist) were an option you could pick just like the heavy weapons. I don't recall when they first created Mutilators but I think it was after 3.5.
Maybe they will just get rid of the Obliterator/Mutilator split and make it just one unit again.
That's what I'm thinking. You get all the guns and melee options at the same time. Either the bare handed clawed fingers or powerfists.Maybe with certain gun options locked to one or the other. We've already seen they have different options for their hands and what's attached to them gun-wise.
Regarding "merging" Oblits and Mutilators: I'd love for this to happen. Mutilators just should never have existed : #giveOblitsbackthierFists.
Having said that, I think it would be bit unprecedented for GW to do this. I cannot think of an example in the last decade in which GW rolled out a new unit type, just to sweep that under the carpet as if it never existed (aside from Tomb Kings, but that was an entire line, not just a unit or 2)
before mutilators were a thing Oblits had a power fist option anyway, so its not much of a stretch to give that option back or just give them a power weapon equiv for CC.
Given what the feet look like on the new Oblit, it seem pretty clear the Oblits are Chaos Centurions now, which makes some sense.
Centurions do have shooting and melee-ish versions, so maybe Mutilators are going to be retconned to just be melee Oblits? But regular Oblits get their power fists back to have GUNS/melee and Mutilators will have MELEE/gun
Either way, this new model NEEDS updated rules to match what it looks like. It cannot just be an Oblit as-is
BrianDavion wrote:yeah, mutilators where created for 6th edition, and where IMHO unnesscary,
One thing I heard that I thought was interesting was that the Mutilators were originally sculpted at the same time as the Obliterators, but sculpted as additional Obliterator poses; when 6th rolled around they were reworked and all the close combat stuff was added. So in many ways they were an after thought.
Galef wrote:Regarding "merging" Oblits and Mutilators: I'd love for this to happen. Mutilators just should never have existed : #giveOblitsbackthierFists.
Having said that, I think it would be bit unprecedented for GW to do this. I cannot think of an example in the last decade in which GW rolled out a new unit type, just to sweep that under the carpet as if it never existed (aside from Tomb Kings, but that was an entire line, not just a unit or 2)
Agreed. The guy who can make a plasma cannon come out of hammer space... or his chaos meat pocket... or wherever should be able to T-1000 a power fist or power weapon without any issue.
I realize its different but probably the closest was when GW went from Space Marine veterans to Sternguard, and pretty much became a whole new unit with different weapons and options and relegating the two editions of Veteran space marine minis to being used as Sergeants or shelf queen Vanguard Vets on foot. Effectively killing that unit in favor of a new template.
Formosa wrote:before mutilators were a thing Oblits had a power fist option anyway, so its not much of a stretch to give that option back or just give them a power weapon equiv for CC.
Obliterators changed quite a bit between each codex. They were stronger and tougher with all the heavy and special weapons, and the power fist. They lost the toughness at one point. Gained all the other close combat weapon options. Lost all the close combat weapon options, retaining the fist. Losing the fist and losing the ranged weapon options.
Formosa wrote:before mutilators were a thing Oblits had a power fist option anyway, so its not much of a stretch to give that option back or just give them a power weapon equiv for CC.
Obliterators changed quite a bit between each codex. They were stronger and tougher with all the heavy and special weapons, and the power fist. They lost the toughness at one point. Gained all the other close combat weapon options. Lost all the close combat weapon options, retaining the fist. Losing the fist and losing the ranged weapon options.
So what you're saying is Oblits' rules are just a mutable from codex to codex and the unit is from turn to turn. Probably the fluffiest rules GW has come up with
aka_mythos wrote: Obliterators changed quite a bit between each codex. They were stronger and tougher with all the heavy and special weapons, and the power fist. They lost the toughness at one point. Gained all the other close combat weapon options. Lost all the close combat weapon options, retaining the fist. Losing the fist and losing the ranged weapon options.
I can STILL hear the echoes of nerd-rage when the Obliterator statline was changed in the FAQ from T5 to T4(5)... then in the next codex they somehow just became T4. I mean, maybe the original ghastly Obliterator models were T4 because they were the same stature as a Space Marine, just 80% gun barrels, but these new ones are a step above even the (initially good, but now very dated) 3rd ed Obliterator models, so I too am wondering if they'll get a toughness/wound boost.
Raichase wrote: I can STILL hear the echoes of nerd-rage when the Obliterator statline was changed in the FAQ from T5 to T4(5)... then in the next codex they somehow just became T4. I mean, maybe the original ghastly Obliterator models were T4 because they were the same stature as a Space Marine, just 80% gun barrels, but these new ones are a step above even the (initially good, but now very dated) 3rd ed Obliterator models, so I too am wondering if they'll get a toughness/wound boost.
The rage came about because Pete Haines said that the T5 was a 'mistake'.
to be fair they are priced ok now if you compare them to centurions which are t5 but dont have an inv and cant deep strike,,, i guess you could argue cents are pretty overcosted though.
can't see how GW will up their stats keep the inv and not put a pts increase on them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 10 more Rumour Engine pics and we might be able to put them together to make a whole mini.
Somebody's already done that.
Seriously though, I think we can expect the full box to be revealed on Sunday. It will be interesting to see if they just do the box or if they release it alongside vigilus book two or some of the chaos minis.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 10 more Rumour Engine pics and we might be able to put them together to make a whole mini.
Ironically, the rumor engine pics have all been a teaser of the same mini. A possessed champion that will be included in the starter with 2 boxes of the current possessed for troops.
You didn't think GW would actually revamp the full CSM range, did you?
10 days left, let's hope for an epic totally random Tuesday reveal in that case. Sadly the money I'd put aside might have to go on the car in the time we've been waiting!
Or, after 80 days hits, they tantalisingly reveal that Abaddon is sending another underling to take Vigilus, who promises to take the planet in ANOTHER 80 days.
H.B.M.C. wrote: [...]
Really all that picture tells me is that 70 days ago Haarken lost his spear and still hasn't found it...
Well that is one way to interpret it, but the right way wouldn't help us either to find out what is going on.(Sorry if I am slaughtering english grammar)
Fingers crossed I am losing not as much money as with the GSC release. And it is still before brexshit hits the fan.
That last one is a bit confusing. Definitely part of a vehicle or some kind of floating platform (Dark Abeyant style?) Definitely doesn't fit any unit description we have right now.
It’s mounted on top of a marine backpack; it’s really not that big.
Someone suggested dark apostle but it could be another sort of specialised sorcerer (instead of a summoner).
BrookM wrote: Just got a pop up on WarCom with the following image:
And the message 70 DAYS HAVE PASSED 10 REMAIN
To me that doesn’t look like a sunrise/set in the background as much as a titan having gone nuclear. With the dead skitari in the foreground and a black legion banner to the right, I think someone had a bad day.
I would love for this to be where FW releases imperator Titan, and that be one of the main weapons Abaddon drops on Vigilus. It’s a pretty straight line of destruction in that picture like someone just took a stroll trough the garden.
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
yeah, apparently terra hasn't fallen yet and we haven't had half the factions in the game destroyed so "nothing changes"
Some people enjoy complaining as an essential and core part of their hobby. Mostly about GW, here in the miniatures realm, but you'll find the same about any kind of "fandom". Just look at some of the Star Wars "fans".
I'm pretty excited for the Shadow Spear box. Just need to know if it goes up for pre-order next week or the following week at this point.
I'm hoping pre orders go up next week, since the countdown ends roughly around then. Though, as some people have pointed out, Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus. Funny that Harkaan doesn't come in the set with Spear in the title.
GaroRobe wrote: I'm hoping pre orders go up next week, since the countdown ends roughly around then. Though, as some people have pointed out, Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus. Funny that Harkaan doesn't come in the set with Spear in the title.
Yeah, the countdown ending on a Tuesday is odd. I guess it could mean most of a week of full-on previews, rather than everything just appearing on the Saturday (or shown by WHQ a week before that)?
GaroRobe wrote: I'm hoping pre orders go up next week, since the countdown ends roughly around then. Though, as some people have pointed out, Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus. Funny that Harkaan doesn't come in the set with Spear in the title.
Yeah, the countdown ending on a Tuesday is odd. I guess it could mean most of a week of full-on previews, rather than everything just appearing on the Saturday (or shown by WHQ a week before that)?
that's my guess, the countdown is to an announcement. it's typical marketing "we're announcing we'll be making an announcement"
GaroRobe wrote: I'm hoping pre orders go up next week, since the countdown ends roughly around then. Though, as some people have pointed out, Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus. Funny that Harkaan doesn't come in the set with Spear in the title.
Yeah, the countdown ending on a Tuesday is odd. I guess it could mean most of a week of full-on previews, rather than everything just appearing on the Saturday (or shown by WHQ a week before that)?
GaroRobe wrote: I'm hoping pre orders go up next week, since the countdown ends roughly around then. Though, as some people have pointed out, Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus. Funny that Harkaan doesn't come in the set with Spear in the title.
Yeah, the countdown ending on a Tuesday is odd. I guess it could mean most of a week of full-on previews, rather than everything just appearing on the Saturday (or shown by WHQ a week before that)?
80 days probably sounded way cooler than 85 lol
80 feels pretty random too, to be honest. 50 or 100 feel more natural. Unless he used some warp shenanigans, and a daemon told him exactly how long it would take for either him to win or for Abaddon to show up.
Regarding the Tuesday countdown, I see two possibilities. Tuesday has been the day when they unveil their big box sets. 8th edition and soul wars were both fully unveiled on a Tuesday. It could be that GW is putting this release in that category. Unfortunately that would probably mean that the box set is coming later than we think as those major releases have always had a two week preorder.
The other possibility is that GW is going to announce the next global campaign.
A global campaign to decide the fate of Vigilus feels like it would be a logical way for GW to go.
Chikout wrote: Regarding the Tuesday countdown, I see two possibilities. Tuesday has been the day when they unveil their big box sets. 8th edition and soul wars were both fully unveiled on a Tuesday. It could be that GW is putting this release in that category. Unfortunately that would probably mean that the box set is coming later than we think as those major releases have always had a two week preorder.
The other possibility is that GW is going to announce the next global campaign.
A global campaign to decide the fate of Vigilus feels like it would be a logical way for GW to go.
my local GW manager told me "next weekedn will NOT be the shadowspear pre-order, but it will be something really cool" grain of salt and all that but..
I'm fine with a two week preorder time, as long as we actually get to see the contents of this box. The Daemon Rumor Engine has started to become a trifle tedious
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
Cut in half except when the plot requires otherwise to ensure every single chapter everywhere got Primaris. Cut in half except for most Imperial worlds what's the difference, they don't see interstellar starships for centuries or millennia anyway.
Which is the point - the plot advances, oh noes, the galaxy is ripped asunder! Surely the Imperium is boned now right? But it's OK, Cawl has invented Primaris and Guilliman is back and all the Marines everywhere are now better and fightier, and the Custodes have finally wiped off their mascara and turned off the My Chemical Romance mixtape to get out and about fighting stuff again, so the balance of power doesn't really shift, they just make big melodramatic claims about things happening off-screen.
They rearrange the pieces, but the status quo is never materially different because the "plot" can never, ever end; there will always be an Imperium of sufficient power to oppose their collective enemies at a level just sufficient to prevent them being overrun and destroyed. But all that's just moaning, apparently, because Malibu Stacy has a new hat...
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
Cut in half except when the plot requires otherwise to ensure every single chapter everywhere got Primaris. Cut in half except for most Imperial worlds what's the difference, they don't see interstellar starships for centuries or millennia anyway.
Which is the point - the plot advances, oh noes, the galaxy is ripped asunder! Surely the Imperium is boned now right? But it's OK, Cawl has invented Primaris and Guilliman is back and all the Marines everywhere are now better and fightier, and the Custodes have finally wiped off their mascara and turned off the My Chemical Romance mixtape to get out and about fighting stuff again, so the balance of power doesn't really shift, they just make big melodramatic claims about things happening off-screen.
They rearrange the pieces, but the status quo is never materially different because the "plot" can never, ever end; there will always be an Imperium of sufficient power to oppose their collective enemies at a level just sufficient to prevent them being overrun and destroyed. But all that's just moaning, apparently, because Malibu Stacy has a new hat...
so in other words you WON'T be happy unless GW removes entire factions from the game?
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
Cut in half except when the plot requires otherwise to ensure every single chapter everywhere got Primaris. Cut in half except for most Imperial worlds what's the difference, they don't see interstellar starships for centuries or millennia anyway.
Which is the point - the plot advances, oh noes, the galaxy is ripped asunder! Surely the Imperium is boned now right? But it's OK, Cawl has invented Primaris and Guilliman is back and all the Marines everywhere are now better and fightier, and the Custodes have finally wiped off their mascara and turned off the My Chemical Romance mixtape to get out and about fighting stuff again, so the balance of power doesn't really shift, they just make big melodramatic claims about things happening off-screen.
They rearrange the pieces, but the status quo is never materially different because the "plot" can never, ever end; there will always be an Imperium of sufficient power to oppose their collective enemies at a level just sufficient to prevent them being overrun and destroyed. But all that's just moaning, apparently, because Malibu Stacy has a new hat...
Exactly
That's why moving the plot line was/is a bad idea, cause unless they go full AOS (and they won't), all of these ''changes'' are futile.
Get with the times bruh, GW are all about the advancing plot these days - there will be all kinds of consequences from Vigilus...which will be perfectly balanced out by various out-of-nowhere extremely convenient events happening elsewhere off-screen making sure the status quo is maintained. It's totally different to the boring old static setting they had before
Imperium cut in half and still folks think the story hasn't changed. Tsk tsk
Cut in half except when the plot requires otherwise to ensure every single chapter everywhere got Primaris. Cut in half except for most Imperial worlds what's the difference, they don't see interstellar starships for centuries or millennia anyway.
Which is the point - the plot advances, oh noes, the galaxy is ripped asunder! Surely the Imperium is boned now right? But it's OK, Cawl has invented Primaris and Guilliman is back and all the Marines everywhere are now better and fightier, and the Custodes have finally wiped off their mascara and turned off the My Chemical Romance mixtape to get out and about fighting stuff again, so the balance of power doesn't really shift, they just make big melodramatic claims about things happening off-screen.
They rearrange the pieces, but the status quo is never materially different because the "plot" can never, ever end; there will always be an Imperium of sufficient power to oppose their collective enemies at a level just sufficient to prevent them being overrun and destroyed. But all that's just moaning, apparently, because Malibu Stacy has a new hat...
People put way too much stock into this games story line, treating it as if its akin to high literary art. It's just C+ level scifi, with a couple of good stories written in here or there.
I'm really hoping we get a proper reveal today, as soon as I saw this release I squirrelled away some money by selling my tau start collecting set and codex and now have 60 quid sat to pay the bulk of it off!
I get my work bonus at the beginning of next month so yay. I hope we get a new Warpsmith too. Maybe they'll also redo Haarkan's rules or make raptors better in close combat.
so in other words you WON'T be happy unless GW removes entire factions from the game?
Nothing gets removed from the game, ever, once it's in. It gets removed from further advancement in the story.
What Yod is saying is "the more it changes, the more it stays the same", or that's how i read it. If GW removed a fraction from advancing, they would have another to replace them lined up, they need to keep the imbalance balanced.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Nothing about what you just said contradicts, counters or in any way answers what Yod said.
It advances the story. Or more accurately the setting. It gives them new space to tell stories.
What Yod has said is akin to saying the Horus Heresy was pointless.
You can still field space marines in virtually any way you want? The imperium is decaying without the Emperor now? But, oh yes, they magically keep repelling all these attacks!
Of course they will continue to use plot devices to do what they want, of course things will only happen that continue to allow things to remain in the game and provide space for new products.
But it allows them to refresh the setting and tell stories that aren't just rehashes. It allows them to develop Primaris or Ynnari or whatever they want. It lets them have Chaos pop up anywhere and you not think what's the point in the Cadian gate if Abaddon can pop up in New Planet 352.
It'll be interesting to see how the Vigilus campaign will end, if Chaos wins their current stranglehold on the two halves of the Imperium grows tighter as it means one less safe passageway through the rift.
Though it remains to be seen how the Orks and Genestealer Cultists will fit into the whole thing.
Advancing the story doesn't have to mean that stuff gets removed from the game. They could advance the story to a point where Tactical Squads are no longer used by Space Marine Chapters, and still have Space Marine Tactical Squads sitting on shelves. They've been doing just that for 30 years now with special characters - At least half of the special characters GW have included in the game over the years have already been dead in the 'current' time, according to their fluff. In some cases (Macharius!) by quite a long margin.
The thing is, the setting isn't just the 'current' time. It's that, and everything that has preceded it, and potentially things that haven't actually happened yet. So there is absolutely nothing stopping them from advancing the plot in ways that actually result in meaningful changes to the Imperium, in order to add new content, without having to chop anything that's already in there... fluff-wise, anyway.
Practically speaking, the range is only ever going to be a finite size, because there is only so much space in their stores. So adding in new stuff winds up pushing old stuff out.
I really think vigilus falls plunging the Imperium into more turmoil which leads to another primarch returning and leading another indomitus style crusade with a 3rd Primaris wave and also some of the maledictum being closed up with pylon technology as hinted at in dark Imperium.
Nothing gets removed from the game, ever, once it's in. It gets removed from further advancement in the story.
My Deathguard Obliterators and Bikers got removed shortly after they were made great by the Traitor Legions codex. All part of GWs plan to make Chaos players bitter and twisted like the armies they play.
Been wondering if I'll be able to take some new Chaos units to the GT final on the 16th of March, won't be long until we know now.
Nothing gets removed from the game, ever, once it's in. It gets removed from further advancement in the story.
My Deathguard Obliterators and Bikers got removed shortly after they were made great by the Traitor Legions codex. All part of GWs plan to make Chaos players bitter and twisted like the armies they play.
Been wondering if I'll be able to take some new Chaos units to the GT final on the 16th of March, won't be long until we know now.
Yeah...but Obliterators and Bikers didn't cease to exist. They just removed them from Death Guard.
It's no different from Centurions, Wolf Guard, DA Terminators with Plasma Cannons, etc. Different armies can be different, even if they're Marines.
The only thing that let's one hope for a more unexpected story progression is that GW now listens more to what is going on on the internet.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
The destruction of the chaos gods and the imperium, one is possible, the other is not.
Abbaddon just needs to break his goals down into smaller, more achievable units: Murder a guardsman; summon a single demon, violate a specific shrine,... With each little victory he will get a little squirt of dopamine and encourage him to keep ticking off those boxes. He will be drinking out of the Emperors skull in no time.
And an accountability coach. Literature is clear even the most ruthless villain is more likely to dessacrate a planet with someone checking in on him. I’d volunteer but I’m already helping my buddy stick with his keto diet.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
The destruction of the chaos gods and the imperium, one is possible, the other is not.
One is only possible through the other. Something Alpharius Ommegon knew, worked on and had their fall out about.
Kendo wrote: Abbaddon just needs to break his goals down into smaller, more achievable units: Murder a guardsman; summon a single demon, violate a specific shrine,... With each little victory he will get a little squirt of dopamine and encourage him to keep ticking off those boxes. He will be drinking out of the Emperors skull in no time.
And an accountability coach. Literature is clear even the most ruthless villain is more likely to dessacrate a planet with someone checking in on him. I’d volunteer but I’m already helping my buddy stick with his keto diet.
Tiberius501 wrote: Who's ready for another week of the daemon engine and an awesome lack of Shadow Spear reveals?
They have to announce something today.
Is there anything else left that GW has announced or hinted at other than Shadowspear/Vigilus 2?
I thought the Black Library celebration was the last one, but I'm not keeping close enough track of things to say for certain. Maybe something for a Specialist Game?
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
Writing Chaos fiction for Chaos players in a manner that presents that Chaos faction as the protagonist might. Black Library novels seem to be doing this pretty successfully.
By contrast, the 13th Black Crusade, Fall of Cadia and the whole rift business was presented as a footnote in the quest to resurrect Girlyman, then an obstacle for Girlyman to overcome on his way to Terra, then a threat to counter-crusade with an army pulled out of Cawl's rectal aperture.
One of the most asked questions I remember after the last Gathering Storm and learning of the hundred year time jump in Dark Imperium was if Failbaddon just took a century off after smashing Cadia. Mission accomplished, let's hit the beach, finally getting a tan after ten millennia in the Eye of Terror!
But of course the answer is that Failbaddon is carried a lot by Internet dynamic. I doubt that at this point there is any desire or much chance for that matter to see that changed.
Tiberius501 wrote: Who's ready for another week of the daemon engine and an awesome lack of Shadow Spear reveals?
They have to announce something today.
Is there anything else left that GW has announced or hinted at other than Shadowspear/Vigilus 2?
I thought the Black Library celebration was the last one, but I'm not keeping close enough track of things to say for certain. Maybe something for a Specialist Game?
I think the Sylvaneth warband for Shadspire has yet to be released, and the new Khorne Battletome for Sigmar. So it may just be either/both of them.
Tiberius501 wrote: Who's ready for another week of the daemon engine and an awesome lack of Shadow Spear reveals?
They have to announce something today.
Is there anything else left that GW has announced or hinted at other than Shadowspear/Vigilus 2?
I thought the Black Library celebration was the last one, but I'm not keeping close enough track of things to say for certain. Maybe something for a Specialist Game?
I think the Sylvaneth warband for Shadspire has yet to be released, and the new Khorne Battletome for Sigmar. So it may just be either/both of them.
And the Necromunda Ambots. Although the Shadespire warband will probably be in April with the Kharadron one.
Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
I’ll grant you that it took him a while to achieve. He had a fair few obstacles to overcome though.
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
I’ll grant you that it took him a while to achieve. He had a fair few obstacles to overcome though.
That whole "failbaddon" thing is a bad 4chan meme anyways. Ever since the black crusades were a thing, it's always been that Abaddon has had ulterior motives for each and every one; it's not something new they pulled out of their ass to "retcon" him losing 12 times. The 2nd edition codex simply mentions a "black crusade" as any large-scale Chaos incursion, not just Abaddon's. Ever after that it was synonymous with Abaddon but they have never changed from being losses to victories.
Tiberius501 wrote: Who's ready for another week of the daemon engine and an awesome lack of Shadow Spear reveals?
They have to announce something today.
Is there anything else left that GW has announced or hinted at other than Shadowspear/Vigilus 2?
I thought the Black Library celebration was the last one, but I'm not keeping close enough track of things to say for certain. Maybe something for a Specialist Game?
I think the Sylvaneth warband for Shadspire has yet to be released, and the new Khorne Battletome for Sigmar. So it may just be either/both of them.
And the Necromunda Ambots. Although the Shadespire warband will probably be in April with the Kharadron one.
Cool. Forgot about Ambots. I wouldn't complain if they were announced today. *hides from angry Chaos mob*
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
I’ll grant you that it took him a while to achieve. He had a fair few obstacles to overcome though.
That whole "failbaddon" thing is a bad 4chan meme anyways. Ever since the black crusades were a thing, it's always been that Abaddon has had ulterior motives for each and every one; it's not something new they pulled out of their ass to "retcon" him losing 12 times. The 2nd edition codex simply mentions a "black crusade" as any large-scale Chaos incursion, not just Abaddon's. Ever after that it was synonymous with Abaddon but they have never changed from being losses to victories.
On a personal note, in my years of playing Black Legion and beyond, I've never had a model consistently underperform like Failbaddon. Every time, every single time, I would have taken three Chaos Cultists over him and expected them to achieve more.
Well, there was that one time when he got turned into Spawnbaddon by a friendly Sorcerer, and proceeded to wreak havoc formerly thought impossible. He even passes both 6+ invulnerable saves he had to take.
I hope when his new model is fully revealed, we get a chance to assemble him as a Chaos Spawn.
MORTALS, WHY IS IT EVERY TIME I SHOW YOU AN IMAGE YOU GUESS THAT IT IS THE PRIMARCH OF THE ACCURSED I LEGION UPON A THUNDERHAWK. EVEN TO MY TWISTED, ANCIENT INTELLECT, THIS SEEMS SOMEWHAT IMPROBABLE. I MEAN, LOOK AT THIS.
I'm going to put forward a ridiculous but would be awesome if true theory. A Daemon cannon. And I mean Daemon cannon in the vain of that titan that that could shoot daemons. You would be able to choose what lesser daemon/ammo you fire, with the different gods resembling a different effect. Tzeentch is tesla, nurgle posion etc etc.
As part of that, there's a slim chance that the fired daemon can survive the impact and be immediately in combat with the target, with no need to keep points in reserve.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm going to put forward a ridiculous but would be awesome if true theory. A Daemon cannon. And I mean Daemon cannon in the vain of that titan that that could shoot daemons. You would be able to choose what lesser daemon/ammo you fire, with the different gods resembling a different effect. Tzeentch is tesla, nurgle posion etc etc.
As part of that, there's a slim chance that the fired daemon can survive the impact and be immediately in combat with the target, with no need to keep points in reserve.
So a shokk attack gun for a new age? Needs a D66 table to work properly though.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm going to put forward a ridiculous but would be awesome if true theory. A Daemon cannon. And I mean Daemon cannon in the vain of that titan that that could shoot daemons. You would be able to choose what lesser daemon/ammo you fire, with the different gods resembling a different effect. Tzeentch is tesla, nurgle posion etc etc.
As part of that, there's a slim chance that the fired daemon can survive the impact and be immediately in combat with the target, with no need to keep points in reserve.
So a shokk attack gun for a new age? Needs a D66 table to work properly though.
Totally forgot the shokk attack gun did this. Put rather than trying to teleport snotlings inside your armor, more throwing a daemon at your head. Maybe with it's sword pointing at you.
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
Erm, no. Horus legitimately conquered from 1/3 to 1/2 of the Galaxy in just a decade. Had Terra fallen, he would have had Dark Imperium ready to rule. Failbaddon, in comparison, took 10.000 years to accomplish exactly nothing, and when he finally did, he just shat all over the map making it virtually useless for both sides. Sure, Imperium lost tens of thousands of worlds, but seeing these turned into dead, unproductive daemon worlds that will never be of any use again and massively feeding the gods, something that supposedly goes against both goals the 'armless has (namely, making gods insignificant and ruling everything himself). From where I sit, that doesn't exactly look like a great success.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
How about, you know, him having even one of 1/10000 of success that Horus had? To make him look less like incompetent sock puppet?
I mean, we went from 12 failed Black Crusades into dumb retcon #1, stating it was all totally meant to lose because he totes was accomplishing other things (namely expending billions of soldiers and tens of thousands of astartes plus hundreds of warships to accomplish such lofty goals as pissing on one grave, killing three digit number of people on that one ship or grabbing a fancy cutlery piece) all of which hilariously enough made the 12 failed Crusades look like epitome of competence in comparison as at least there is no shame in losing honest fight, but throwing away truck full of gold to grab a handful of peanuts intentionally makes you look like headless loser...
Then came dumb retcon #2, the crimson path, stating Failbaddon wants to rule the imperium and deny the gods by sinking most of it into the warp, making it impossible to be ruled by mortal and giving various daemons, daemon princes, and greater daemons he surrounds himself with limitless power - genius! It's like wanting to stop communist revolution by delivering codes to the entire US and Russian nuclear arsenals on a silver platter to the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Gee, I wonder what he intends to do when he wins and finds out no one needs him around anymore, with all of the above guys now playing dice who will claim his suddenly worthless hide now that gods no longer have to pretend they like him?
Of course, we're now on ADBs dumb retcon #3, which somehow manages to mix the above two into even greater ball of fail (combined with Imperium, Eldar and Necrons being blind, deaf, and stupid pretending the thing all of which hate the most wasn't happening last ten millenia and not utilizing their precognitive abilities or even common sense even once to thwart Abby) as he had thrown colossal amounts of material and lives away only to have his ass handed to him and his last irreplaceable super battleship lost uselessly (given he could have just chucked big piece of rock at Cadia in BC nr 1 and called it a day if that really was his goal).
Oh, and then he took a century long nap, apparently, and to add insult to injury, just after he blown up Cadia BC nr 13 splintered into pieces instantly leaving him with tiny amount of forces left as everyone else frakked off to do their own thing. So, he not only had zero say over his demonic followers, apparently his mortal ones didn't gave two grots about him either. Does any of that not sound like a hopeless failure to any of you?
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
Erm, no. Horus legitimately conquered from 1/3 to 1/2 of the Galaxy in just a decade. Had Terra fallen, he would have had Dark Imperium ready to rule. Failbaddon, in comparison, took 10.000 years to accomplish exactly nothing, and when he finally did, he just shat all over the map making it virtually useless for both sides. Sure, Imperium lost tens of thousands of worlds, but seeing these turned into dead, unproductive daemon worlds that will never be of any use again and massively feeding the gods, something that supposedly goes against both goals the 'armless has (namely, making gods insignificant and ruling everything himself). From where I sit, that doesn't exactly look like a great success.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
How about, you know, him having even one of 1/10000 of success that Horus had? To make him look less like incompetent sock puppet?
I mean, we went from 12 failed Black Crusades into dumb retcon #1, stating it was all totally meant to lose because he totes was accomplishing other things (namely expending billions of soldiers and tens of thousands of astartes plus hundreds of warships to accomplish such lofty goals as pissing on one grave, killing three digit number of people on that one ship or grabbing a fancy cutlery piece) all of which hilariously enough made the 12 failed Crusades look like epitome of competence in comparison as at least there is no shame in losing honest fight, but throwing away truck full of gold to grab a handful of peanuts intentionally makes you look like headless loser...
Then came dumb retcon #2, the crimson path, stating Failbaddon wants to rule the imperium and deny the gods by sinking most of it into the warp, making it impossible to be ruled by mortal and giving various daemons, daemon princes, and greater daemons he surrounds himself with limitless power - genius! It's like wanting to stop communist revolution by delivering codes to the entire US and Russian nuclear arsenals on a silver platter to the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Gee, I wonder what he intends to do when he wins and finds out no one needs him around anymore, with all of the above guys now playing dice who will claim his suddenly worthless hide now that gods no longer have to pretend they like him?
Of course, we're now on ADBs dumb retcon #3, which somehow manages to mix the above two into even greater ball of fail (combined with Imperium, Eldar and Necrons being blind, deaf, and stupid pretending the thing all of which hate the most wasn't happening last ten millenia and not utilizing their precognitive abilities or even common sense even once to thwart Abby) as he had thrown colossal amounts of material and lives away only to have his ass handed to him and his last irreplaceable super battleship lost uselessly (given he could have just chucked big piece of rock at Cadia in BC nr 1 and called it a day if that really was his goal).
Oh, and then he took a century long nap, apparently, and to add insult to injury, just after he blown up Cadia BC nr 13 splintered into pieces instantly leaving him with tiny amount of forces left as everyone else frakked off to do their own thing. So, he not only had zero say over his demonic followers, apparently his mortal ones didn't gave two grots about him either. Does any of that not sound like a hopeless failure to any of you?
WHERE ARE MY SHINEY NEW TOY SOLDIERS GW? I WANTS THEM NOW!!
*cough*
So another "breather" week? The longer this goes on, the more I'm thinking there is going to be a real tsunami of releases and not just the Shadow Spear box. My wallet is currently shivering in anticipation like a sub at there first dominatrix
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
Erm, no. Horus legitimately conquered from 1/3 to 1/2 of the Galaxy in just a decade. Had Terra fallen, he would have had Dark Imperium ready to rule.
Since when?
Genuinely curious, because I didn't get that impression, well, anywhere. As far as I've been able to tell, Horus did the complete opposite, conquered the barest amount of worlds when he turned traitor, and focused more on taking other Legions out of the picture (Drop Site Massacre, Prospero, Calth, Signus) and making a beeline for Terra, securing only the minimum safe amount of worlds for his supply chain as possible. He certainly didn't take and hold even a quarter of the galaxy, but, rather fittingly for his Legion philosophy, went straight for the throat. I'm pretty sure he makes a point of this in Galaxy in Flames, that he can waste no time in getting to Terra before his father can mobilise enough troops to defend it.
Again, feel free to show me where Horus conquered that amount when he rebelled, but I don't think I've ever seen it.
And as JSG said, "cool fanfic". Disagree with most of what you wrote, but that's fine, but also off topic, I suppose.
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
Erm, no. Horus legitimately conquered from 1/3 to 1/2 of the Galaxy in just a decade. Had Terra fallen, he would have had Dark Imperium ready to rule.
Since when?
Genuinely curious, because I didn't get that impression, well, anywhere. As far as I've been able to tell, Horus did the complete opposite, conquered the barest amount of worlds when he turned traitor, and focused more on taking other Legions out of the picture (Drop Site Massacre, Prospero, Calth, Signus) and making a beeline for Terra, securing only the minimum safe amount of worlds for his supply chain as possible. He certainly didn't take and hold even a quarter of the galaxy, but, rather fittingly for his Legion philosophy, went straight for the throat. I'm pretty sure he makes a point of this in Galaxy in Flames, that he can waste no time in getting to Terra before his father can mobilise enough troops to defend it.
Again, feel free to show me where Horus conquered that amount when he rebelled, but I don't think I've ever seen it.
And as JSG said, "cool fanfic". Disagree with most of what you wrote, but that's fine, but also off topic, I suppose.
Horus didn't have the ships though did he? I'm right in thinking that the legions, plus the separate battlegroups would have been able to crowd out Horus in space if he didn't act quick to cut the head of the snake, he would not have won a protracted war, so taking and holding all worlds along the route would have worked against him, unless he systematically destroyed loyal legions along the way, which would have took longer and been difficult.
The Big E was no joke either who's to say what he could have had built and waiting for Horus at Terra if Horus took 100 years to get there.
Mandragola wrote: Poor old Abaddon. He broke the imperium in half causing loads of planets to fall to chaos. It’s arguably more than Horus ever managed. What else do you guys want from he guy?
Erm, no. Horus legitimately conquered from 1/3 to 1/2 of the Galaxy in just a decade. Had Terra fallen, he would have had Dark Imperium ready to rule. Failbaddon, in comparison, took 10.000 years to accomplish exactly nothing, and when he finally did, he just shat all over the map making it virtually useless for both sides. Sure, Imperium lost tens of thousands of worlds, but seeing these turned into dead, unproductive daemon worlds that will never be of any use again and massively feeding the gods, something that supposedly goes against both goals the 'armless has (namely, making gods insignificant and ruling everything himself). From where I sit, that doesn't exactly look like a great success.
The word about Failbaddon the most unsuccessful Warmaster should've landed at their doorstep by now. If they are going to do something about it we will know soon.
Abaddon's primary goals are so immense in scale that they cannot succeed, or the whole setting goes up in flames. If blowing up Cadia wasn't enough to satisfy the Failbaddon crowd, what would be?
How about, you know, him having even one of 1/10000 of success that Horus had? To make him look less like incompetent sock puppet?
I mean, we went from 12 failed Black Crusades into dumb retcon #1, stating it was all totally meant to lose because he totes was accomplishing other things (namely expending billions of soldiers and tens of thousands of astartes plus hundreds of warships to accomplish such lofty goals as pissing on one grave, killing three digit number of people on that one ship or grabbing a fancy cutlery piece) all of which hilariously enough made the 12 failed Crusades look like epitome of competence in comparison as at least there is no shame in losing honest fight, but throwing away truck full of gold to grab a handful of peanuts intentionally makes you look like headless loser...
Then came dumb retcon #2, the crimson path, stating Failbaddon wants to rule the imperium and deny the gods by sinking most of it into the warp, making it impossible to be ruled by mortal and giving various daemons, daemon princes, and greater daemons he surrounds himself with limitless power - genius! It's like wanting to stop communist revolution by delivering codes to the entire US and Russian nuclear arsenals on a silver platter to the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Gee, I wonder what he intends to do when he wins and finds out no one needs him around anymore, with all of the above guys now playing dice who will claim his suddenly worthless hide now that gods no longer have to pretend they like him?
Of course, we're now on ADBs dumb retcon #3, which somehow manages to mix the above two into even greater ball of fail (combined with Imperium, Eldar and Necrons being blind, deaf, and stupid pretending the thing all of which hate the most wasn't happening last ten millenia and not utilizing their precognitive abilities or even common sense even once to thwart Abby) as he had thrown colossal amounts of material and lives away only to have his ass handed to him and his last irreplaceable super battleship lost uselessly (given he could have just chucked big piece of rock at Cadia in BC nr 1 and called it a day if that really was his goal).
Oh, and then he took a century long nap, apparently, and to add insult to injury, just after he blown up Cadia BC nr 13 splintered into pieces instantly leaving him with tiny amount of forces left as everyone else frakked off to do their own thing. So, he not only had zero say over his demonic followers, apparently his mortal ones didn't gave two grots about him either. Does any of that not sound like a hopeless failure to any of you?
But you are completely wrong. There was no Retcon #1. The 12 crusades were always from the moment they were written meant to all have ulterior motives. The earliest mention is from 3rd edition which explicitly stated this (as I said before in 2nd black crusade was just the term for any big chaos invasion). There never was a retcon to make them not losses. I don't know where you got your information but I will tell you it's not factually correct and the 12 crusades ere never failures.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Horus didn't have the ships though did he? I'm right in thinking that the legions, plus the separate battlegroups would have been able to crowd out Horus in space if he didn't act quick to cut the head of the snake, he would not have won a protracted war, so taking and holding all worlds along the route would have worked against him, unless he systematically destroyed loyal legions along the way, which would have took longer and been difficult.
The Big E was no joke either who's to say what he could have had built and waiting for Horus at Terra if Horus took 100 years to get there.
That's what I thought. But all the same, I may start this discussion in 40k Background, as it seems fun.
streetsamurai wrote: Man. after all the tease, anything less than a full Chaos reboot would be a dissapointment.
I'm pumped for this, but fear we get much less than we're anticipating
well let's examine what we KNOW we're getting
1st: new CSMs.
2nd Obliterators (one can assume a duel mutilator kit, if it doesn't happen we can expect the unit to slowly dissapper)
3rd: New posessed
4th: a new deamon engine
I'd assume we're not going to see new raptors as those are relativly new. we can't be sure on havoks yet but I'd hope so. especially if GW is indeed phasing out, long term, the old school kits, then CSM players would eventuallyy, no longer be able to just buy a devesatator kit and use their spare chaos bits to chaosify them.
Probably uniquely, I’m relieved we don’t get preorders next week. I’m going to a tournament two weeks after that. The new primaris guys would have made my army better, so I’d have had to buy and paint up a bunch of them in a week. Now I can’t, so no problem.
I guess it probably means my army will be out of date the actual day of the event, and worse than it could have been, but oh well.
streetsamurai wrote: Man. after all the tease, anything less than a full Chaos reboot would be a dissapointment.
I'm pumped for this, but fear we get much less than we're anticipating
It'll be gutting if they preview all this stuff, shadow spear drops then the rest of it is trickled out over a month
my guess is thats gonna be the plan. drop shadowspear then release an entire new CSM line over the month
I'm ok with a month long release, I just don't want a situation where each unit is revealed each week and a full week of fluffy articles.
It seems very entitled reading my own words, I guess just as time goes on these overly protracted marketing schemes actually give time for the hype to wear off for me.
streetsamurai wrote: Man. after all the tease, anything less than a full Chaos reboot would be a dissapointment.
I'm pumped for this, but fear we get much less than we're anticipating
It'll be gutting if they preview all this stuff, shadow spear drops then the rest of it is trickled out over a month
my guess is thats gonna be the plan. drop shadowspear then release an entire new CSM line over the month
I'm ok with a month long release, I just don't want a situation where each unit is revealed each week and a full week of fluffy articles.
It seems very entitled reading my own words, I guess just as time goes on these overly protracted marketing schemes actually give time for the hype to wear off for me.
no you're absolutely right, hype fatigue is a thing. if they spend all month hyping us for a 5 item release towards the middle or end of march... that'll backfire
At least we'll get a chunk of new units in Shadowspear, which they can't drag out. MoP, Possessed, Venomcrawler, CSM.
That just leaves:
Abaddon
Terminators
Terrain(?)
Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
Plus whatever else they might have (Havoc, maybe?)
At least 2 or 3 weeks worth of models, excluding Shadowspear (wonder if they'll release the contents at around the same team, since CSM are sort of an essential part of the release)
It seems counter productive to release the Ambot right before a huge box you've been teasing for a month. I thought for sure there was gonna be a huge reveal today but I guess not
fraser1191 wrote: It seems counter productive to release the Ambot right before a huge box you've been teasing for a month. I thought for sure there was gonna be a huge reveal today but I guess not
Why? It’s a niche product for a niche game. Theoretically the market for it is small, stable, and largely separate to the one for the campaign box. Better to get a short run out now and use the extra time to build up stock for the big thing before you have to ship it.
Although I think they may have underestimated the number of people wanting to use them as ersatz Ogryns, especially for genecult armies.
I guess there’s a chance (risk?) that rather than this being a new CSM codex it’s some other kind of thing. Maybe the daemonkin will become their own sub-faction.
The wheel thing does look like a portal of some kind. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it was compatible with the admech terrain, to create part of the daemonforge thing that the smurfs attack.
fraser1191 wrote: It seems counter productive to release the Ambot right before a huge box you've been teasing for a month. I thought for sure there was gonna be a huge reveal today but I guess not
It's a specialist game week- ambots, AT weapons, made to order Skaven. Gives a bit of breather room in the production schedule and peoples budgets.
fraser1191 wrote: It seems counter productive to release the Ambot right before a huge box you've been teasing for a month. I thought for sure there was gonna be a huge reveal today but I guess not
It's a specialist game week- ambots, AT weapons, made to order Skaven. Gives a bit of breather room in the production schedule and peoples budgets.
I don't think that's what they mean. The Ambot is a big release for Necromunda, however with the big swirling rumour mill around new chaos, firstly the ambot is overshadowed in part, but secondly, people may not purchase it as they are unsure how much cash they will need to buy the new chaos and/or primaris goodies in the next few weeks.
fraser1191 wrote: It seems counter productive to release the Ambot right before a huge box you've been teasing for a month. I thought for sure there was gonna be a huge reveal today but I guess not
It's a specialist game week- ambots, AT weapons, made to order Skaven. Gives a bit of breather room in the production schedule and peoples budgets.
I don't think that's what they mean. The Ambot is a big release for Necromunda, however with the big swirling rumour mill around new chaos, firstly the ambot is overshadowed in part, but secondly, people may not purchase it as they are unsure how much cash they will need to buy the new chaos and/or primaris goodies in the next few weeks.
.
Yes this is what I was getting at, personally I want an ambull for like a random board threat but never got it because Shadow spear is coming
streetsamurai wrote: Man. after all the tease, anything less than a full Chaos reboot would be a dissapointment.
I'm pumped for this, but fear we get much less than we're anticipating
Are you serious?
Do you remember "Orktober"?
6 buggies and a codex.
You should be happy to be getting any infantry models at all, let alone a new centrepiece (as if CSM need any more) in Abby.
I know it was like 5 years ago now, but Orks are one of the armies with Tau, marines and tyranids that have had a huge update and modernisation of their base models in recent times. Yeah you still have a fair few resin squad kits, but they don't look dated at least, other armies cannot say the same. Chaos are absolutely awful model wise, it's an embarrassment to the hobby really.
Eh, I would love to see more armies getting more choices for centerpiece models, especially ones that don't require allies to use. So CSM getting one or more here is a good thing for me.
streetsamurai wrote: Man. after all the tease, anything less than a full Chaos reboot would be a dissapointment.
I'm pumped for this, but fear we get much less than we're anticipating
Are you serious?
Do you remember "Orktober"?
6 buggies and a codex.
You should be happy to be getting any infantry models at all, let alone a new centrepiece (as if CSM need any more) in Abby.
I know it was like 5 years ago now, but Orks are one of the armies with Tau, marines and tyranids that have had a huge update and modernisation of their base models in recent times. Yeah you still have a fair few resin squad kits, but they don't look dated at least, other armies cannot say the same. Chaos are absolutely awful model wise, it's an embarrassment to the hobby really.
I agree that the worst looking Chaos models beat the worst looking Ork models in an ugly contest but I disagree that we've had a "huge update and modernisation of our base models". This just isn't true. Boyz are super old and are starting to look derpy, they're the core of any Ork list. Increasing their base size without providing a new sculpt was lazy and stupid of GW. Ghazzy, the big Daddy Ork who is our 'Guilliman' or 'Abaddon' is a joke, he's like tiny bloody Tim which is why everyone buys the Artel mini. Mad Dok looks like gak (doesn't really effect me, mind). So do the currently metal Deff koptas. Our Big Choppa warboss model is from 1999 and is also metal. Then we have multiple failcast units.
I'm glad you Chaos players are getting your due but let's not pretend that the Ork range is completely fine and that the Orktober release doesn't seem somewhat underwhelming given the GSC release and now this one.
I suppose this is where opinions differ, I like the ork boyz and I know they are old as hell... I'm old skool with Orks anyway, they should look a little derpy.
And I totally agree about Ghaz, but not before abaddon, he needed it more, as well as some other characters as we are mentioning in the other thread.
So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
They have Troops markings, not Close Support markings. So that leads me to believe that they are something different.
I would almost be inclined to say they look like regular Space Marine Tactical Marines wearing improved armor. I don't think that is actually nwhat is going on, but if it actually happened, I wouldn't be surprised.
They look like Mk X Tacticals. As in, the thing everyone has said would come eventually to replace the regular Space Marine Tactical Marines. That rotary barrel Bolt Rifle might just be the new Heavy Bolter or even the equivalent of one.
If that happens, I don't know, I might be replacing a squad or two of Intercessors with them. From the looks of it, we are getting new examples of each of the Force Organization Slots (Grav Chute HW Marines are likely Heavy Support or Fast Attack, Boltgun Marines are Troops, Snipers are Elites or Heavy Support). Which sort of solves some of the problems of Primaris. Especially the snipers and HW Marines.
I am excited to see how this all plays out. I still want a new speeder type vehicle, either a transport or a gunboat (or both out of the same kit).
I really hope both the snipers and autocannon guys(?) go into the Heavy support slot. The elite slot is getting a little crowded and hellblasters are the only Primaris heavy support. I guess one could go fast attack but it might be a bit of a stretch
fraser1191 wrote: I really hope both the snipers and autocannon guys(?) go into the Heavy support slot. The elite slot is getting a little crowded and hellblasters are the only Primaris heavy support. I guess one could go fast attack but it might be a bit of a stretch
I would be fine with one of either of those being Fast Attack. I agree that there are way too many Elites for Primaris (Reivers should be Fast Attack anyway), and they need to spread them out. Truthfully, NONE of the Primaris releases need to be Elites.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
Have you seen the Reivers' Bolt Carbine?
The item that the Urban Conquest and Shadowspear art models have is not a Bolt Carbine.
I based on their magwells, the could be a "Heavy" Bolt Carbine. Im just guessing though cause the Shadowspear guys have a box mag vs the sickle of the Reivers. And their mag looks broader.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
Remember, during the LVO reveal, GW said everything in the box is brandnew, and doesn't currently have a model. So Reivers wouldn't make sense.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
Agreed, don't think it would be reivers either
Remember, during the LVO reveal, GW said everything in the box is brandnew, and doesn't currently have a model. So Reivers wouldn't make sense.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So now we have our first inkling of a terrain piece for Chaos(seriously, practically every release in the past year has had a terrain piece with it). That means the following are KNOWN:
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Chaos Space Marines
Obliterators
Possessed
Daemon Engine
Terminators
Terrain Piece (I am thinking some sort of Daemon Forge)
Space Marines are a little less known:
Stealth Librarian
Eliminators
Grav Chute Heavy Weapon Marines
There is a pretty good chance we get a new Captain and Lieutenant based on the artwork, as well as whatever those regular Marines are with Boltguns.
I'm thinking the bolt gun marines might just be reivers,
Remember, during the LVO reveal, GW said everything in the box is brandnew, and doesn't currently have a model. So Reivers wouldn't make sense.
Reivers are rapid-strike shock troops as well, so don’t really fit into the stealth aspect of the rest of the Space marines in the box..
smurfORnot wrote: Btw. with Reivers being "cc" terror troops...what is logic behind not giving them single good cc weapon?
Their Bolt Pistols are -1 AP. Call their Combat Knives Power Knives and give them -2 AP (same as the knives that Custodes carry). No change in price, just better stats to fit their current price per model (why they cost more than Intercessors is beyond me...).
smurfORnot wrote: Btw. with Reivers being "cc" terror troops...what is logic behind not giving them single good cc weapon?
Their Bolt Pistols are -1 AP. Call their Combat Knives Power Knives and give them -2 AP (same as the knives that Custodes carry). No change in price, just better stats to fit their current price per model (why they cost more than Intercessors is beyond me...).
Yeah reivers are stuck with no good weapons and therefore no obvious role to perform. I'm not sure AP would fix that, but it would be something. I was just looking at the CA points cost changes to see whether some previously bad units had become contenders. I think some have, but reivers definitely aren't among them. I honestly did a double take when I saw that their grav chutes and grappling hooks are 2 points each.
In theory, they are better than intercessors with auto bolt rifles. They cost the same but come with those cheap halloween masks and shock grenades, so technically they are better. Unfortunately their sergeant can't have any of the cool weapons that an intercessor sergeant can, and their own weapons do nothing much, so they are largely harmless.
What I'm really interested to see is the rules for the vanguard marines. It seems likely to me that they'll have some sort of special rules for deployment - but what? One of the weird things about 40k right now is that there are about 28 million different sets of rules to represent the old "infiltrate" rule in different ways (apparently to make the game easier to understand...). I wonder what these guys will get. "Logic" might dictate that they get the rule that scouts currently have, but obviously that doersn't mean it's what GW will do. The autocannon guys look like they deep strike, though presumably they won't be forced to. No idea about the snipers.
What I do know is that my army will be getting some new options, and that's cool. On balance I've decided it's a shame I won't get to use these option in time for the GT finals - though it's certainly a relief not to have to do the painting.
Honestly pretty hyped for a proper Chaos Portal terrain piece (if, that's what that is anyways) - I've always wanted one (or a sacrificial pit) since they appeared in Dawn of War.
We also really need a Chaos Space Marine smug Pepe and crying Ork Wojak at this point. People also need to stop reading 1d4chan and /tg/ green text stories and taking them as actually existing canon. Anyone who says 'Failbaddon' is clearly a lorelet.
Togusa wrote: Remember, during the LVO reveal, GW said everything in the box is brandnew, and doesn't currently have a model. So Reivers wouldn't make sense.
Wasn't it just new sculpts? So if it's reivers it'd be a rather bizarre resculpt after less than what, a year or two?
Togusa wrote: Remember, during the LVO reveal, GW said everything in the box is brandnew, and doesn't currently have a model. So Reivers wouldn't make sense.
Wasn't it just new sculpts? So if it's reivers it'd be a rather bizarre resculpt after less than what, a year or two?
I don't think anyone was suggesting that those guys are reivers. They have bolt rifles and no silly face masks. Some of them have the grav chute fin things but most don't. They do all seem to have the reiver-style armour on.
I'm just curious to know what they are and what rules they'll have. I particularly hope that they aren't all elites, like most other Primaris stuff seems to be. More fast and heavy choices would make the army a lot easier to fill out.
One bit of pure wishlisting would be to have a Primaris buggy, like the ones GW has been churning out for orks and GSCs. The GSC one is pretty close to what you'd want already.
OKAY, MORTALS. THE DAEMON ENGINE IS GOING TO BE REAL WITH YOU FOR A MOMENT. I DON’T KNOW WHAT THIS ONE IS AND MY DAEMON BOSS IS GOING TO TURN ME INTO THE WHEEL AXLE ON HIS BLOOD THRONE IF I CAN’T REMEMBER. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS SNEAK PEEK COULD BE?
LET ME KNOW ON THE WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR AND WARHAMMER 40,000 FACEBOOK PAGES. QUICKLY. BEING A WHEEL AXLE IS RUBBISH.
Latro_ wrote: looks like that might be a termie axe.
That's because you're merely guessing. Through the powers of science and deduction, based on the position of the skull, this is clearly an armless stick man Chaos Marine with his jaws agape, a razor tongue sticking out and a spiny ridge running down the center of his backpack.
But if need be I'd take a Bringers of Despair kit, too.
Latro_ wrote: actually! scrap what i said it was a guess a poor one... terminators don't have chain axes!
They definitely used to. The new CSM aspiring champ has a
chainaxe as well. Wouldn't be surprised if this is a terminator chain axe. I'd bet on that over new Berserkers, even if they desperately need a new kit.
As mentioned, it could very well be for a new terminator kit... as well as the power fist, the trophy rack, the glaive and even the mutated foot (as the current terminator kit also feature mutations). I guess a new terminator kit could really be expected, though the trophy rack might very well belong to Abaddon.
Just on a sidenote: In the drawing from the LVO there is a "normal" CSM with a chainaxe and a plasmapistol to be seen (quite in the center). So the Chainaxe could very well be just a preview for the standart CSM.
I've been looking at the Venomcrawler. It's not inconceivable that it is in fact a multi kit with a new defiler sculpt. Just spin the thing around and stick a big cannon out one side. The Helflamer seen on the rumor engine supports this theory a bit as it seems to be pointing backwards relative to the orientation of the crawler.
StarHunter25 wrote: I've been looking at the Venomcrawler. It's not inconceivable that it is in fact a multi kit with a new defiler sculpt. Just spin the thing around and stick a big cannon out one side. The Helflamer seen on the rumor engine supports this theory a bit as it seems to be pointing backwards relative to the orientation of the crawler.
I think it is too small for that. I am picturing the Venomcrawler as being about the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought, if no smaller. The Defiler is significantly larger than that.
Latro_ wrote: actually! scrap what i said it was a guess a poor one... terminators don't have chain axes!
But they used to.
I can't put my finger on it, but those old chaos modells are so gorgeous. I don't even know why, if it's the nostalgia kicking in....but I love them.
PS: Sorry for derailing. On Topic: I'm afraid that all the hype about new havocs etc. is overdoing it, and the released stuff ist just the equipment of the 10 man CSM Squad (Heacy Bolter, CC Weapons etc)
I can't put my finger on it, but those old chaos modells are so gorgeous. I don't even know why, if it's the nostalgia kicking in....but I love them.
Seeing that kit at the store when I was 12 is one of the foundational moments of my Chaos career #salvagefacts
Also a strong reason why I'm hoping we get a new termi kit and not just a couple of bros for Abby. I mean, I'm fully prepared to make my Lustwing out of the current termis, but I will gleefully take bigger terminators with 5x the options that the rather slim current plastic has going on
*recedes into the background, stacking credits for the impending chaotic deluge*
LordMcAllister wrote: As mentioned, it could very well be for a new terminator kit... as well as the power fist, the trophy rack, the glaive and even the mutated foot (as the current terminator kit also feature mutations). I guess a new terminator kit could really be expected, though the trophy rack might very well belong to Abaddon.
Just on a sidenote: In the drawing from the LVO there is a "normal" CSM with a chainaxe and a plasmapistol to be seen (quite in the center). So the Chainaxe could very well be just a preview for the standart CSM.
Spoiler:
That particular chainaxe and plasma pistol have already been shown off. Its the champion of the chaos space marine unit (You can see him on the community site or in the first page of this thread)
fraser1191 wrote: I really hope both the snipers and autocannon guys(?) go into the Heavy support slot. The elite slot is getting a little crowded and hellblasters are the only Primaris heavy support. I guess one could go fast attack but it might be a bit of a stretch
I would be fine with one of either of those being Fast Attack. I agree that there are way too many Elites for Primaris (Reivers should be Fast Attack anyway), and they need to spread them out. Truthfully, NONE of the Primaris releases need to be Elites.
Yeah, reivers should have been Fast attack and aggressors should have been Heavy support. But I can only see the snipers being FA is they can infiltrate like scouts, and the other guys drop in like Inceptors so they could be
StarHunter25 wrote: I've been looking at the Venomcrawler. It's not inconceivable that it is in fact a multi kit with a new defiler sculpt. Just spin the thing around and stick a big cannon out one side. The Helflamer seen on the rumor engine supports this theory a bit as it seems to be pointing backwards relative to the orientation of the crawler.
I think it is too small for that. I am picturing the Venomcrawler as being about the same size as a Redemptor Dreadnought, if no smaller. The Defiler is significantly larger than that.
Is it really though? Quite a bit of old Deffy's bulk comes from the chunky legs. The overall shape is the same, just replace the two front legs with big claws, face the side-mounted guns the other way round, then change them to standard defiler kit. Plus, once again, the baleflamer looking thing is mounted on top pointed the wrong way. The more I look at it the more obvious it seems. Plus, the current defiler fits nicely on the big round base that a dunecrawler comes on.
So, in my mind, Defiler/Venomcrawler multi-kit very plausible if not confirmed.
If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
Whilest i am not opposed to a new defiler, i kinda feel other units would need a rework more then it.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
Whilest i am not opposed to a new defiler, i kinda feel other units would need a rework more then it.
Maybe if they were just redoing the defiler kit but we are talking about a dual kit for something they have already shown to have made. So whether or not something could of got updated before the defiler isn't really the point I think. But I would probably disagree another kit (that isn't already shown) be remade over the defiler because the defiler is an option in 3 chaos armies which is 3x the potential sales to something only in the chaos space marine codex baring a new and significantly improved daemon prince model that doesn't suck eggs.
I'm starting to believe we're getting a full re-release of the chaos line in March+April. I'd be willing to bet that over the next 8 days we will see chaos bikes, rhino, predator and land raider (basically last 4 old kits) as either Daemon Engine teases or outright previews.
LordMcAllister wrote: As mentioned, it could very well be for a new terminator kit... as well as the power fist, the trophy rack, the glaive and even the mutated foot (as the current terminator kit also feature mutations). I guess a new terminator kit could really be expected, though the trophy rack might very well belong to Abaddon.
Just on a sidenote: In the drawing from the LVO there is a "normal" CSM with a chainaxe and a plasmapistol to be seen (quite in the center). So the Chainaxe could very well be just a preview for the standart CSM.
Spoiler:
That particular chainaxe and plasma pistol have already been shown off. Its the champion of the chaos space marine unit (You can see him on the community site or in the first page of this thread)
The axe on that champion does not have a skull, not the same axe.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
. It wasn't a good model in the first place. Out of scale with bad joins, and rather frustrating build limitations.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
Whilest i am not opposed to a new defiler, i kinda feel other units would need a rework more then it.
Maybe if they were just redoing the defiler kit but we are talking about a dual kit for something they have already shown to have made. So whether or not something could of got updated before the defiler isn't really the point I think. But I would probably disagree another kit (that isn't already shown) be remade over the defiler because the defiler is an option in 3 chaos armies which is 3x the potential sales to something only in the chaos space marine codex baring a new and significantly improved daemon prince model that doesn't suck eggs.
Why excactly should it generate 3 times as much sales ? You forget that the two "new" armies were just cut out of the general codex.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
Whilest i am not opposed to a new defiler, i kinda feel other units would need a rework more then it.
Maybe if they were just redoing the defiler kit but we are talking about a dual kit for something they have already shown to have made. So whether or not something could of got updated before the defiler isn't really the point I think. But I would probably disagree another kit (that isn't already shown) be remade over the defiler because the defiler is an option in 3 chaos armies which is 3x the potential sales to something only in the chaos space marine codex baring a new and significantly improved daemon prince model that doesn't suck eggs.
Why excactly should it generate 3 times as much sales ? You forget that the two "new" armies were just cut out of the general codex.
Because there are a ton of players that started playing Chaos after DG and TS were split out? Not all Chaos players have been playing for years. I personally have found the Chaos Marine range to be utter crap for going on 20 years now but when DG came out I suddenly decided I wanted a DG army. I really want a defiler but there is zero chance of me buying that monstrosity. Furthermore, I will be buying Shadow Spear and would like to again purchase a defiler for that force as well. So right there if GW made a defiler kit two sales for two armies would be created. That is just me.
LordMcAllister wrote: As mentioned, it could very well be for a new terminator kit... as well as the power fist, the trophy rack, the glaive and even the mutated foot (as the current terminator kit also feature mutations). I guess a new terminator kit could really be expected, though the trophy rack might very well belong to Abaddon.
Just on a sidenote: In the drawing from the LVO there is a "normal" CSM with a chainaxe and a plasmapistol to be seen (quite in the center). So the Chainaxe could very well be just a preview for the standart CSM.
BrotherGecko wrote: If they made a dual kit with a defiler then someone at GW will deserve a nice bonus for suggesting it because the defiler did not age well. I would also be in favor of scaling down the sprawl of the defiler to fit on a 150mm base. The legs are goofy and just give your opponent more area to target.
Whilest i am not opposed to a new defiler, i kinda feel other units would need a rework more then it.
Maybe if they were just redoing the defiler kit but we are talking about a dual kit for something they have already shown to have made. So whether or not something could of got updated before the defiler isn't really the point I think. But I would probably disagree another kit (that isn't already shown) be remade over the defiler because the defiler is an option in 3 chaos armies which is 3x the potential sales to something only in the chaos space marine codex baring a new and significantly improved daemon prince model that doesn't suck eggs.
Why excactly should it generate 3 times as much sales ? You forget that the two "new" armies were just cut out of the general codex.
Because there are a ton of players that started playing Chaos after DG and TS were split out? Not all Chaos players have been playing for years. I personally have found the Chaos Marine range to be utter crap for going on 20 years now but when DG came out I suddenly decided I wanted a DG army. I really want a defiler but there is zero chance of me buying that monstrosity. Furthermore, I will be buying Shadow Spear and would like to again purchase a defiler for that force as well. So right there if GW made a defiler kit two sales for two armies would be created. That is just me.
That is a subjective viewpoint and does not constitute a general increase off 3x since now 3 CSM armies exist.
Therefore no it won't generate 3 x as many potential sales.
It just will have a "bigger " market then before, but i doubt it to be 3 times.. (I do not have the numbers of increased sales that were based on the split out, therefore i can't state how much it increased compared to just a CSM market)
I can't put my finger on it, but those old chaos modells are so gorgeous. I don't even know why, if it's the nostalgia kicking in....but I love them.
Seeing that kit at the store when I was 12 is one of the foundational moments of my Chaos career #salvagefacts
My 13 year old self would agree with you. When they came out, it was the coolest kit. That was in a totally different environment though. There are so many kits thats much better looking it is ridiculous. Now I just hope not all of them have tusks, and that the tusksare not that pronounced.
I mean, they told you exactly how long you’d have to wait and are releasing more than expected, with more regular updates. Not sure how that compares to Orktober other than similar wishes to “skip to the end” and get the releases!
Maybe a bit of confusion over use of the word "yeeting" as it is hard to see that being a typo for 'leaving' but, who knows for sure, other than you, Apple Peel.
Anyway, add me to the list that just wants to see all the damn models already!
JohnnyHell wrote: I mean, they told you exactly how long you’d have to wait and are releasing more than expected, with more regular updates. Not sure how that compares to Orktober other than similar wishes to “skip to the end” and get the releases!
Well no, we were given a count down to some unconfirmed event involving the despoiler. We still don't actually know what will happen at the end of that count down. We don't know when the previewed kits will be released.
Imagine how much better the shock/hype would be if on that date they showed us the kits, all at once, then commenced weekly previews and releases.
Instead we're at the point where we know the stuff is there, we have seen some of it and we're getting 2+ weeks of "look at this ankle!". It's tiring when you just want some decent updates or substantial news.
JohnnyHell wrote: I mean, they told you exactly how long you’d have to wait and are releasing more than expected, with more regular updates. Not sure how that compares to Orktober other than similar wishes to “skip to the end” and get the releases!
Yeah but they showed off the initial models (eliminators, librarian, tick,etc) on the 8th. So it's been 17 days of vague photos of random parts. I would have preferred no initial showing and just have a bunch of demon engine stuff. After seeing the first bit most figured they'd be up for pre-order in a week or two. And it's not going up for pre-order this weekend either. So roughly 4 full weeks of teasers and we still have no idea what's in the box
Maybe a bit of confusion over use of the word "yeeting" as it is hard to see that being a typo for 'leaving' but, who knows for sure, other than you, Apple Peel.
Anyway, add me to the list that just wants to see all the damn models already!
I had to google it, and it’s one of those newfangled nonsense words the kids use! Back in my day, etc...
At this point I am hoping beyond hope we get a Traitor Legions for 8th edition or, better yet, a revamp of the 3.5 Codex. Anything less and I will be furious.
The quality of the models doesn't matter if the rules are pure gak.
Wayniac wrote: At this point I am hoping beyond hope we get a Traitor Legions for 8th edition or, better yet, a revamp of the 3.5 Codex. Anything less and I will be furious.
The quality of the models doesn't matter if the rules are pure gak.
Well, if you absolutely have to be furious, maybe do it elsewhere? The chaos codex is 18 months old. An expectation that they're going to replace that with design decisions from decades ago seems like unreasonable wish listing. And cluttering up threads with rage based on that seems unwarranted, especially if you know in advance that it's 'hope beyond hope'. That seems more on you than GW.
I'd love a new datasheet for Reaver really because they don't make any sense at the moment. Someone in the thread talked about a possible -1 or -2 AP on their knife, but what troubles me the most is their armor : they have a different armor, supposed to be lighter, but have the same stat as a normal intercessor in any way possible.
They should have a higher movement, or a better advance roll or something. And some options for the sergent.
Latro_ wrote: my money is on a viglius 2 book, heavy on chaos 8th ed formations and a couple of data slates
It will likely have formations for Primaris Vanguard as well. There will be bitching about MOAR MUHREENS! like usual too.
Twice the bitching, because Marines and Spiky Marines and not enough Xenos.
"Why aren't <Insert Faction not on Vigilus whatsoever> getting Vigilus formations?!" "Because they aren't on Vigilus." "That's stupid, GW hates <Insert Faction>!"
I would love to say that this is a conversation I have not had.
I hear ya.
WhiteDog wrote:I'd love a new datasheet for Reaver really because they don't make any sense at the moment. Someone in the thread talked about a possible -1 or -2 AP on their knife, but what troubles me the most is their armor : they have a different armor, supposed to be lighter, but have the same stat as a normal intercessor in any way possible.
They should have a higher movement, or a better advance roll or something. And some options for the sergent.
Without those change they will stay unplayable.
They really only need the AP on their knives and options for their SGT, they get ways around having the same movement stat by being able to Deep Strike and the Grapnel guns.
WhiteDog wrote: I'd love a new datasheet for Reaver really because they don't make any sense at the moment. Someone in the thread talked about a possible -1 or -2 AP on their knife, but what troubles me the most is their armor : they have a different armor, supposed to be lighter, but have the same stat as a normal intercessor in any way possible.
They should have a higher movement, or a better advance roll or something. And some options for the sergent.
Without those change they will stay unplayable.
I agree. They would actually be good or at least decent at their job if their attacks were capable of doing anything. I don't necessarily agree they need to be faster, but their grenades need to be longer range though. As of right now they can't even use them until turn 3 at the earliest. They might as well not even have the damn things. Giving their bolt carbines -1 AP would probably be a good way to set them apart from Auto Bolt Rifles as well.
Yeah reivers are incredibly lame. But whatever is given to the carbines needs to be given the knives so there isn't an auto pick. If they both had ap - 1 the knives would still give the extra attack so there's that risk reward factor.
That's kinda the issue with intercessors right now the bolt rifle is pretty much the only choice
I'm really interested in these new troops as far as what they will do to separate them from intercessors
I am honestly expecting the new guys to basically just be Primaris Tactical Marines. Regular Boltguns, availability of Special and Heavy Weapons, and a customizable Sergeant (probably with the Intercessor Weapon options). It would help placate the Regular Space Marines are Doomed! types since the new sheet would basically allow you to use the old RSM with boosted stats.
Although that pic isn't new, I'm only now noticing the guy behind the librarian's sword. Is that one of the heavy weapon troops? The weapon looks massive, and more like a gatling gun than a bolter.
Also, in the trailer video, we can see some of the primaris have the antennae on their backs like the art. Reivers don't have that currently. Its 0:38 in the video, when it shows off the other obliterator.
It was specifically stated at LVO that these guys all use the Reiver armour, including the Librarian. They are supposed to be an infiltration unit so I expect all new units, rules, and psychic powers.
Wayniac wrote: At this point I am hoping beyond hope we get a Traitor Legions for 8th edition or, better yet, a revamp of the 3.5 Codex. Anything less and I will be furious.
The quality of the models doesn't matter if the rules are pure gak.
Rules come and go, and even more in 8th, but Models will be with you for many more years.
bullyboy wrote: It was specifically stated at LVO that these guys all use the Reiver armour, including the Librarian. They are supposed to be an infiltration unit so I expect all new units, rules, and psychic powers.
Does this mean there's gonna be a wave of marines in all gravis armour at some point?
bullyboy wrote: It was specifically stated at LVO that these guys all use the Reiver armour, including the Librarian. They are supposed to be an infiltration unit so I expect all new units, rules, and psychic powers.
Does this mean there's gonna be a wave of marines in all gravis armour at some point?
Eh, maybe. I don't know how you would do Gravis Troops (these added Chambers of Primaris seam to be covering all of the FO slots).
