-Unique helmet.
-Unique auto-cannon/belt fed cannon
-Grav chute vanes...but not as big as Inceptor?
-Grav boots ala Inceptor
-Winglets on the boots/greaves
....all I see:
It has much more in common with the Nemo(thrusters on the upper back and also on the legs). But the 180 mm Cannon of the Gundam Ground Type is not belt-fed. It has a magazine. But you weren't the first person to make the connection.
Kindly do not attach non-wargaming images to your posts
Kanluwen wrote: At this point, my only disappointment is that it's an Ultramarines set instead of Raven Guard.
I've got a can of black spray paint that says it's not an Ultramarine set. He's got a bigger vote in the matter than the box art.
I'm in agreement with you that it likely is a "generic" set. My only concern is that "Captain" in the background of the Shadowspear art--if it really is a Primaris Telion like I've speculated upon...that'll be annoying.
I will say that it is quite entertaining that we know that only the Librarian survives the events of the battlebox though.
Crimson_ wrote: Please be Predator Autocannons with Strength 8, please GW.
This is hopefully the much needed heavy fire support for Primaris Marines. We only need a cheap transport now.
GW has my money for this box.
I'd imagine the gun would be more like the Tartaros reaper auto autocannon. maybe s6
definitely echo the cheaper transport.
Manportible weapons shouldnt be more powerful than those carried on tanks and knights. Given primaris weapons, id think 6 in extra range and an extra ap over a normal autocannon.
You can take out a main battle tank with a RPG, so man-portable heavy firepower can easily be achieved.
I forgot to mention this before but if you look at the center of the image on the ground you can see the three snipers so I think that pretty well confirms that there's only three in a squad.
Kanluwen wrote: At this point, my only disappointment is that it's an Ultramarines set instead of Raven Guard.
But hey we know the Ultramarines lose! Thanks Vigilus Defiant!
I completely agree. That artwork would look incredible if they would have used Raven Guard instead. Not to mention, I think Raven Guard black would make the sample models look far more attractive. Or at least, easier to get behind a powered armored giant wearing a camo cloak is accomplishing anything.
Kanluwen wrote: At this point, my only disappointment is that it's an Ultramarines set instead of Raven Guard.
But hey we know the Ultramarines lose! Thanks Vigilus Defiant!
I completely agree. That artwork would look incredible if they would have used Raven Guard instead. Not to mention, I think Raven Guard black would make the sample models look far more attractive. Or at least, easier to get behind a powered armored giant wearing a camo cloak is accomplishing anything.
Maybe but ultramarines are the studio army for vanilla marines. typically in boxed sets the focus will be on the studio army so they can paint it up. it's telling that the only space wolf primaris models I saw in the SW codex was the stuff from tooth and claw
casvalremdeikun wrote: I forgot to mention this before but if you look at the center of the image on the ground you can see the three snipers so I think that pretty well confirms that there's only three in a squad.
I think that's two snipers and the librarian, actually. It would map with the rest of the video.
Kanluwen wrote: At this point, my only disappointment is that it's an Ultramarines set instead of Raven Guard.
I've got a can of black spray paint that says it's not an Ultramarine set. He's got a bigger vote in the matter than the box art.
I'm in agreement with you that it likely is a "generic" set. My only concern is that "Captain" in the background of the Shadowspear art--if it really is a Primaris Telion like I've speculated upon...that'll be annoying.
I will say that it is quite entertaining that we know that only the Librarian survives the events of the battlebox though.
Of course he survives, hes the protagonist of the anime.
But that lets me to think that pseudo Telion is not a Primaris-Telion but a primaris liutenaunt that is basically Primaris-Not-Telion. I can't understand why, but if he was Telion I assume he would be the "protagonist" and not this random Librarian.
I'm in agreement with you that it likely is a "generic" set. My only concern is that "Captain" in the background of the Shadowspear art--if it really is a Primaris Telion like I've speculated upon...that'll be annoying.
Again, my can of black spray paint says that that "Telion" may end up become... Tolien. With a dark beard.
I'm in agreement with you that it likely is a "generic" set. My only concern is that "Captain" in the background of the Shadowspear art--if it really is a Primaris Telion like I've speculated upon...that'll be annoying.
Again, my can of black spray paint says that that "Telion" may end up become... Tolien. With a dark beard.
The issue is, if they give us Telion and he doesn't map to miniature with rules, that is a wasted model. I really hope they don't do something stupid like that. Generics are better. I wasn't too thrilled with Tooth and Claw either, though that was Space Wolves WITH Space Wolves upgrades. If GW puts an Ultramarine character in there without UM upgrades for the rest of the models, that blows.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The issue is, if they give us Telion and he doesn't map to miniature with rules, that is a wasted model. I really hope they don't do something stupid like that. Generics are better. I wasn't too thrilled with Tooth and Claw either, though that was Space Wolves WITH Space Wolves upgrades. If GW puts an Ultramarine character in there without UM upgrades for the rest of the models, that blows.
Well, that's a "Vanguard Sergeant" at worst, if it is Telion.
Kanluwen wrote: At this point, my only disappointment is that it's an Ultramarines set instead of Raven Guard.
I've got a can of black spray paint that says it's not an Ultramarine set. He's got a bigger vote in the matter than the box art.
I'm in agreement with you that it likely is a "generic" set. My only concern is that "Captain" in the background of the Shadowspear art--if it really is a Primaris Telion like I've speculated upon...that'll be annoying.
I will say that it is quite entertaining that we know that only the Librarian survives the events of the battlebox though.
Of course he survives, hes the protagonist of the anime.
.
Perhaps another genre is a better choice. Anime protagonists regularly suffer tragic/noble/horrifying/laughable ends. Sometimes simultaneously.
But that lets me to think that pseudo Telion is not a Primaris-Telion but a primaris liutenaunt that is basically Primaris-Not-Telion. I can't understand why, but if he was Telion I assume he would be the "protagonist" and not this random Librarian.
We know there's a Lieutenant in the art.
Spoiler:
Foreground, guy with the Grav-Chute pack and combat knife out.
The "not Telion" is a Captain, assuming the trend of the red braids and the like on Captains is repeated here.
Honestly my only concern is that if it is an actual Telion model, it means that it's another Ultramarines character in lieu of a new type of Captain that everyone could field in <Chapter> Vanguard forces.
Galas wrote: I suppose it depends of the anime. Is more probably for the protagonist to die in a 12 episode anime than in a longer one.
Someone needs to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes!
So very, very long. So many dead protagonists.
(Also Dragonballzzz. But I don't recommend actually watching that).
----
Finally got a chance to watch the video. All that jabber about dark industry at the end makes me thing of Dark Mechanicus. And then I think, no, that's unlikely. And then I think of Blackstone and the actual DM models they've already made, and I think of hope.
Galas wrote: I suppose it depends of the anime. Is more probably for the protagonist to die in a 12 episode anime than in a longer one.
Someone needs to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes!
So very, very long. So many dead protagonists.
(Also Dragonballzzz. But I don't recommend actually watching that).
----
Finally got a chance to watch the video. All that jabber about dark industry at the end makes me thing of Dark Mechanicus. And then I think, no, that's unlikely. And then I think of Blackstone and the actual DM models they've already made, and I think of hope.
Don't forget the Chaos tick amd the Obliterators, which also somewhat fit a Dark Mechanicus theme!
Galas wrote: I suppose it depends of the anime. Is more probably for the protagonist to die in a 12 episode anime than in a longer one.
Someone needs to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes!
So very, very long. So many dead protagonists.
(Also Dragonballzzz. But I don't recommend actually watching that).
----
Finally got a chance to watch the video. All that jabber about dark industry at the end makes me thing of Dark Mechanicus. And then I think, no, that's unlikely. And then I think of Blackstone and the actual DM models they've already made, and I think of hope.
Don't forget the Chaos tick amd the Obliterators, which also somewhat fit a Dark Mechanicus theme!
Do we really need dark admech? Shouldn't the lost and the damned get a dex first?
On the other hand more daemonengines are never bad
Crazyterran wrote: The Ultramarines undead grade sprue comes with an old guy with a beard head, so just because it’s an old guy with a beard doesn’t mean it’s Telion.
Yeah, I'm thinking more and more that he won't be actually Telion but I don't think it was strange people tought he would be Primaris Telion with how similar they look and after Calgar.
Galas wrote: I suppose it depends of the anime. Is more probably for the protagonist to die in a 12 episode anime than in a longer one.
Someone needs to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes!
So very, very long. So many dead protagonists.
(Also Dragonballzzz. But I don't recommend actually watching that).
----
Finally got a chance to watch the video. All that jabber about dark industry at the end makes me thing of Dark Mechanicus. And then I think, no, that's unlikely. And then I think of Blackstone and the actual DM models they've already made, and I think of hope.
Don't forget the Chaos tick amd the Obliterators, which also somewhat fit a Dark Mechanicus theme!
Do we really need dark admech? Shouldn't the lost and the damned get a der first?
On the other hand more daemonengines are never bad
Considering the Negavolt cultists were in BSF, I wouldn't be surprised if the two factions were rolled in together.
The more I think about those "Devastator Primaris" the more I think we are missing something. I doubt those are auto cannons, at least not standard auto cannons anyway. What would be the advantage over Helblasters?
It would be like taking Helblasters and swapping AP and overcharge for range and deep strike. If you want deepstrike with strength 7 just use Inceptors. Situationally useful, but not that great. These guys must have either strength 8 auto cannons, or more shots or both.
cuda1179 wrote: The more I think about those "Devastator Primaris" the more I think we are missing something. I doubt those are auto cannons, at least not standard auto cannons anyway. What would be the advantage over Helblasters?
It would be like taking Helblasters and swapping AP and overcharge for range and deep strike. If you want deepstrike with strength 7 just use Inceptors. Situationally useful, but not that great. These guys must have either strength 8 auto cannons, or more shots or both.
Keep in mind these are Vanguard Primaris space Marines, covert operations units etc, so we should adjust our expectations to match. I suspect high speed, high mobility is going to be their thing, raw damage output is something that I'd expect to see the focus of the unit being mobility and sneaky tactics. I'd not be suprised to see the 2nd vigilus book give us vanguard detachments with some stratigiums too
cuda1179 wrote: The more I think about those "Devastator Primaris" the more I think we are missing something. I doubt those are auto cannons, at least not standard auto cannons anyway. What would be the advantage over Helblasters?
It would be like taking Helblasters and swapping AP and overcharge for range and deep strike. If you want deepstrike with strength 7 just use Inceptors. Situationally useful, but not that great. These guys must have either strength 8 auto cannons, or more shots or both.
They need a missile launcher, multi-melta and heavy bolter analogue for the Primaris so they can combine with hellblasters to form Primaris devastator equivalents.
They will also be useful when intercessors are changed to allow a heavy and special weapon ala tac marines later on.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I forgot to mention this before but if you look at the center of the image on the ground you can see the three snipers so I think that pretty well confirms that there's only three in a squad.
I think that's two snipers and the librarian, actually. It would map with the rest of the video.
Eh, one of the dudes in the video is the Primaris dude with a beard that people keep saying is Telion, who doesn't have a cloak.
Then that strange situation where Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels don't get any new toys because they have their own Codex?
I doubt it. I am sure there will be an add-on book though. I wouldn't expect to see a new codex until we get 8E 2.0 like what happened for AoS 2.0 for Stormcast. Hopefully the add-on book will be able to be used for all Space Marine Chapters though. It is really annoying when the non-Codex Space Marines Chapters have to sit and wait for their update.
We've had units added to codexes in supplement books like this before. I'm pretty sure the ghostkeel was added that way, for example. Not sure about the stormsurge.
We can expect datasheets for these guys to be in the box and/or in the book that comes with vigilus part 2. It doesn't necessarily mean a new marine codex, though that would be quite welcome.
I could see a case now for a seperate primaris codex. The issue for marines at the moment is that there are just so many units in their list. It bloats the book enormously compared to any other codex - meaning GW actually charges more for the thing!
keep in mind that when the original SM codex came out, blood angel, dark angel and space wolf players where outright enchouraged to just use the codex space marines rules until thir own dex dropped. that said my guess is that we'll see a the unit sheets in the Sequal book to vigilusdefiant
H.B.M.C. wrote: Would it be a safe bet that these new units would be in the second Vigilis book, right?
I would put money on the fact that they will be. Though undoubtedly, they will just have their rules included in the boxed set itself. Having rules for a bunch of new Primaris and the Chaos Tick (and likely more) would eat up a lot of space in Vigilus 2. Though perhaps not. It could probably get done in ten pages or less. We will have to wait and see.
Yeah, bear in mind that going forward Vigilus is just the start, and these campaign books are a lot of what we will get going forward.
They can’t redo several books each time one comes out with new units.
They’ll just be in there and you get the book, saying give it any of the tags for SM, DA, BA, SW etc.
Also the Telion thing, I think it’s just a guy. Someone saw the look of Telion in there, and it’s spiralled since.
I think it will just be some guy with a name, to make one of the two exclusive characters for the set.
On that, I can’t see how they aren’t going to be multi part.
It follows the format that they mention themselves in the article where they list Forgebane and the other sets. Then they even say, but this one “will be all new stuff!” with excitement,
It’s not like they say that when a new starter box comes out for the Edition - look all new sculpts, as they obviously are. I think the fact they took the time to make that a point just further compounds that they are just new kits..
Galas wrote: I suppose it depends of the anime. Is more probably for the protagonist to die in a 12 episode anime than in a longer one.
Someone needs to watch Legend of Galactic Heroes!
So very, very long. So many dead protagonists.
(Also Dragonballzzz. But I don't recommend actually watching that).
----
Finally got a chance to watch the video. All that jabber about dark industry at the end makes me thing of Dark Mechanicus. And then I think, no, that's unlikely. And then I think of Blackstone and the actual DM models they've already made, and I think of hope.
Don't forget the Chaos tick amd the Obliterators, which also somewhat fit a Dark Mechanicus theme!
Do we really need dark admech? Shouldn't the lost and the damned get a der first?
On the other hand more daemonengines are never bad
Considering the Negavolt cultists were in BSF, I wouldn't be surprised if the two factions were rolled in together.
I would be surprised if that happens. They would probably release two minidexes instead to milk that recurrent spending.
I think a new Space Marine codex is very possible considering Stormcast Eternals got 2 Battletomes during AoS 1.0, one just after launch and a new one when the Vanguard stuff was released. AoS 2.0 came and they got another new battletome.
DiscoKing wrote: I think a new Space Marine codex is very possible considering Stormcast Eternals got 2 Battletomes during AoS 1.0, one just after launch and a new one when the Vanguard stuff was released. AoS 2.0 came and they got another new battletome.
It's worth mentioning that Vanguard for Stormcast were seemingly intended to be their own battletome, just like they did with the Stormcast Extremis(Dracoth Riders and Stardrake). That's why there was a new book when the Vanguard stuff was released--they'd ceased the Extremis book, added the new stuff that some armies were getting(Relics, Warlord Traits, etc) in and called it a day.
If we're kinda/sorta lucky, this Shadow Spear box will include a minidex that tells you how the army would interact for the various flavors of Power Armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: We've had units added to codexes in supplement books like this before. I'm pretty sure the ghostkeel was added that way, for example. Not sure about the stormsurge.
The Ghostkeel, Stormsurge, and Breachers all came as part of the Damocles Gulf book but also they printed revised copies of the Tau Empire book if you wanted to go that route.
We can expect datasheets for these guys to be in the box and/or in the book that comes with vigilus part 2. It doesn't necessarily mean a new marine codex, though that would be quite welcome.
I could see a case now for a seperate primaris codex. The issue for marines at the moment is that there are just so many units in their list. It bloats the book enormously compared to any other codex - meaning GW actually charges more for the thing!
If I'm wishlisting/dreaming...Vanguard would get their own book, with rules in it for Space Wolves, Deathwatch, etc.
Using them with most chapters should really be as straightforward as swapping out the chapter keyword and using the rules from the appropriate codex. IMO the real problem child of the SM line for adding the Vanguard is the Deathwatch and there mixed squads.
Watched the video again and only just noticed the other devestator marine with jump pack flying above. Be interesting if they are single models as opposed to squads, or work in pairs...
Could be a form of anti material rifle as opposed to an auto cannon, however the belt feed does seem to suggest it is more on the autocannon side of things.
I'd like to see primaris get a form of missile launcher, but get missile options, like melta missiles, plasma missiles, virus missiles etc etc
I'm more curious about the odd use of the word Vanguard with regard to the new units. They almost use it like a type of faction keyword. So...conspiracy time:
1) The rules for these will be in Vigilus Defiant 2...and with so many models and units, it'll make the book sell about nine times more than the first book. Smart business.
2) I've wondered for a while if we'd actually get a Primaris only codex in place of the Space Marine one. Could we see a Primaris Vanguard codex which - conveniently- happen to have the new cool units, some revised rules for older units, better stratagems and psychic powers, but is based solely around Primaris units? This would put the nail in the classic Space Marine coffin (they'd of course still have their original book). This would be happening faster than I assumed originally, but...possible?
3) I'm torn on the Chaos side because I don't see a new Chaos codex coming out, but rather a proper Slaanesh and Khorne based army in place of the original Black Legion...but then we have a couple new units and Abaddon.
4) I think some people would throw a fit over a new codex coming out for either army within "only" two years time, but I also know how hum-drum these armies are compared to the power creep. Personally I'd throw another $30 in to have a better book, or a more enthusiastic book for either army.
4) I think some people would throw a fit over a new codex coming out for either army within "only" two years time, but I also know how hum-drum these armies are compared to the power creep. Personally I'd throw another $30 in to have a better book, or a more enthusiastic book for either army.
If a new book came out it'd definitely be bitter sweet. But I don't see a new book coming out until the revised 8th Edition book comes out
4) I think some people would throw a fit over a new codex coming out for either army within "only" two years time, but I also know how hum-drum these armies are compared to the power creep. Personally I'd throw another $30 in to have a better book, or a more enthusiastic book for either army.
I know I’d rather have a new book every two years that some kind of patched on list of a single faction in the codex that makes bookkeeping mire tedious and does nothing for the remainig factions in the book.
I went on about it a bit when the Primaris were originally released, but the size of the SM Codex is really getting a bit much. If GW don't split the SM into Primaris and non Primaris soon, we are going to have a Codex that is nearly the same size as the core book.
Maybe,
But the actual stuff needed for the game is small (one stat line and rules etc), so depends what they think they’ll take out if needed.
I’m not sure whether I’d want them to split it. On the one hand it’d be good, but on the other, you’d get future coded updates to Primaris, and the SM one would just remain the same and slowly drift away to irrelevance..
I wonder how this Vanguard stuff works organisation wise. Does a Primaris chapter have full Vanguard companies, or are these units in mixed companies with other units?
Crimson wrote: I wonder how this Vanguard stuff works organisation wise. Does a Primaris chapter have full Vanguard companies, or are these units in mixed companies with other units?
Looks like mixed companies with other units--at least in the Ultramarines, if the bit revealing Nemendghast is an indicator.
Sender: Librarian Maltis, Ultramarines 2nd Company, Strike Force Shadowspear
Vigilus Defiant also just refers to it as a "Vanguard Strike Force"--not a Vanguard Company or anything.
4) I think some people would throw a fit over a new codex coming out for either army within "only" two years time, but I also know how hum-drum these armies are compared to the power creep. Personally I'd throw another $30 in to have a better book, or a more enthusiastic book for either army.
If a new book came out it'd definitely be bitter sweet. But I don't see a new book coming out until the revised 8th Edition book comes out
at the LVO studio preview Q&A they confirmed they'll release an updated and small format BRB
Danny76 wrote: Maybe,
But the actual stuff needed for the game is small (one stat line and rules etc), so depends what they think they’ll take out if needed.
I’m not sure whether I’d want them to split it. On the one hand it’d be good, but on the other, you’d get future coded updates to Primaris, and the SM one would just remain the same and slowly drift away to irrelevance
So just like the model range then I get the emotional attachment to the non Primaris sections. There is a lot of truly iconic 40k content in there. But if the Primaris are going to be the main avenue for SM updates in the future, I'd rather not pay for all that dead weight in every new book.
Danny76 wrote: Maybe,
But the actual stuff needed for the game is small (one stat line and rules etc), so depends what they think they’ll take out if needed.
I’m not sure whether I’d want them to split it. On the one hand it’d be good, but on the other, you’d get future coded updates to Primaris, and the SM one would just remain the same and slowly drift away to irrelevance
So just like the model range then I get the emotional attachment to the non Primaris sections. There is a lot of truly iconic 40k content in there. But if the Primaris are going to be the main avenue for SM updates in the future, I'd rather not pay for all that dead weight in every new book.
Now you know how every non-Ultramarines or Imperial Fists player feels with every SM codex.
Excited for shadow spear, sold all my BNIB tau I got for Xmas and now have some cash sat in my PayPal account ready to pull the trigger once thise goes up for pre order.
Crimson fists will be getting reinforcements and my iron warriors army will be rekindled again with chaos half.
Crimson wrote: I wonder how this Vanguard stuff works organisation wise. Does a Primaris chapter have full Vanguard companies, or are these units in mixed companies with other units?
from the Shadow War for Nemedghast part 1 "+++ Incoming Message +++
+++ Security Grade: Classified Extremis
+++ Priority: Alpha-Ultima
+++ Sender: Librarian Maltis, Ultramarines 2nd Company, Strike Force Shadowspear"
relevant part bolded for emphisis
Thus we know the Strikeforce in question here, strikeforce Shadowspear, consists of elements of 2nd company. thus we can conclude that Vanguard forces are mixed into compoanies, the big question is of course company orginization at this point I'm really thinking GW's going to have to have gulliman radically alter the codex to make company orginization make any kind of sense
The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
Or they are just command level attachments to the company like chaplains.
On the other hand, Guilliman is pragmatic, so he could be pushing a wider use of the librarius to confront the surge of Chaos.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
Okay, I wasn't the only one confused by that. Unlike Chaplains, Librarians are not part of the Company structure. However, he could just be indicating he is leading the Strike Force, but it really doesn't seem that way.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
that could just indicate the Libby was attached to the 2nd company command structure at the time but yeah good point, we know from 8th edition codex marines that people can be attached to battle companies on a more perminant basis this is proably for OOC modeling consideration as much as anything else (so you can depict 3 devestator squads with gold trim and not be canon breaking) one wonders if this will apply to specialsits as well under the revised codex
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
Okay, I wasn't the only one confused by that. Unlike Chaplains, Librarians are not part of the Company structure. However, he could just be indicating he is leading the Strike Force, but it really doesn't seem that way.
Some Chaplains. Most Chaplains have always been part of the Reclusiam and attached as needed, with ten permanently attached to Companies as the 2IC. Of course, we now have lieutenants to lead demi-companies, so who knows how the organisation is codified now.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The most interesting thing about that description of the force organisation is that librarians are folded into company structure as opposed to being attached from the librarius
Okay, I wasn't the only one confused by that. Unlike Chaplains, Librarians are not part of the Company structure. However, he could just be indicating he is leading the Strike Force, but it really doesn't seem that way.
Some Chaplains. Most Chaplains have always been part of the Reclusiam and attached as needed, with ten permanently attached to Companies as the 2IC. Of course, we now have lieutenants to lead demi-companies, so who knows how the organisation is codified now.
Yeah, how Chaplains fit in is kind of up in the air now. Perhaps a single Chaplain and Librarian are attached to each Company as advisers to the Captain and LTs?
Sotahullu wrote: I think its indicated that librarian is just leading the strikeforce. Not that much else unless Vanguards are something very different.
But for fluff side of things I think Guilliman is going to change how chapters are organized and/or formed.
Gulliman already has and I expect the tinkering to continue. I'd not be suprised to learn if several Ultima founding chapters where orginized differantly as gulliman experimented with formations etc
Sotahullu wrote: I think its indicated that librarian is just leading the strikeforce. Not that much else unless Vanguards are something very different.
But for fluff side of things I think Guilliman is going to change how chapters are organized and/or formed.
I wonder if the Chapters that have contingencies in place to reform at Legion strength (Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc) will be enacting those plans anytime soon, bolstered with Primaris recruits?
Lion El’Jonson showing up and saying “feth Guilliman, we a Legion again bois!” alongside a fantastic model release would be exciting,
Sotahullu wrote: I think its indicated that librarian is just leading the strikeforce. Not that much else unless Vanguards are something very different.
But for fluff side of things I think Guilliman is going to change how chapters are organized and/or formed.
I wonder if the Chapters that have contingencies in place to reform at Legion strength (Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc) will be enacting those plans anytime soon, bolstered with Primaris recruits?
Lion El’Jonson showing up and saying “feth Guilliman, we a Legion again bois!” alongside a fantastic model release would be exciting,
I think it'd be just as hilarious of Johnson show'd back up and became the largest booster of Gulliman's reforms. Just for the sheer "wtf" factor it'd have.
Sotahullu wrote: I think its indicated that librarian is just leading the strikeforce. Not that much else unless Vanguards are something very different.
But for fluff side of things I think Guilliman is going to change how chapters are organized and/or formed.
This is not something seen as hard evidence for my thoughts that librarians are within companies now, mainly because it has been seen before in artwork and on models all though there is no reason for it.... BUT this vanguard librarian chap has the 2nd company gold trim on his shoulder pad.
Again, I'm not stating that this is definite hard evidence to say they are now, but it does add to the ambiguity of it at the moment.
I've always liked the idea that librarians, like tech marines, and in some chapters chaplains even are not so intertwined with command and the typical battle brothers. Like they are outcasts of sorts, a potential walking warp rift nuke, I don't really want them being part of companies.
honestly.. the indomatus crusaders gives us the ability to make a unit of intercessors vetern, that's. as ideas go, not one I think is a bad idea. if GW decided to cut down on vetern units and instead make them stratigium upgrades in the future I'd not be ENTIRELY opposed to GW expanding on that.
Sotahullu wrote: I think its indicated that librarian is just leading the strikeforce. Not that much else unless Vanguards are something very different.
But for fluff side of things I think Guilliman is going to change how chapters are organized and/or formed.
This is not something seen as hard evidence for my thoughts that librarians are within companies now, mainly because it has been seen before in artwork and on models all though there is no reason for it.... BUT this vanguard librarian chap has the 2nd company gold trim on his shoulder pad.
Again, I'm not stating that this is definite hard evidence to say they are now, but it does add to the ambiguity of it at the moment.
I've always liked the idea that librarians, like tech marines, and in some chapters chaplains even are not so intertwined with command and the typical battle brothers. Like they are outcasts of sorts, a potential walking warp rift nuke, I don't really want them being part of companies.
I think that the gold trim on the Librarian is similar to how units from reserve companies, attached to a battle company strike force, can now where the livery of the company they are attached to.
Thus we know the Strikeforce in question here, strikeforce Shadowspear, consists of elements of 2nd company. thus we can conclude that Vanguard forces are mixed into compoanies, the big question is of course company orginization at this point I'm really thinking GW's going to have to have gulliman radically alter the codex to make company orginization make any kind of sense
Not necessarily , in previous fluff (I think it was an Iron Warriors Book) it is stated that the Codex allows for flexibility where it makes tactical sense. Obviously GW is changing fluff all the time but they have wiggle room.
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah, if you look at the possessed dude's backpack to the right of this image, looks like the latest daemon engine is his.
GW called you out today.
MORTALS! ‘TIS I, THE DAEMON ENGINE! ONE OF YOUR PUNY NUMBER MANAGED TO GUESS MY VISION OF THE FUTURE YESTERDAY. UNFORTUNATELY, I AM INCAPABLE OF GRANTING THEIR WISH OF PLASTIC FACSIMILES OF ADEPTA SORORITAS, HATED AGENTS OF THE ANATHEMA. I PROFFER UNTO THEE ANOTHER SINISTER VISION INSTEAD!
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah, if you look at the possessed dude's backpack to the right of this image, looks like the latest daemon engine is his.
GW called you out today.
MORTALS! ‘TIS I, THE DAEMON ENGINE! ONE OF YOUR PUNY NUMBER MANAGED TO GUESS MY VISION OF THE FUTURE YESTERDAY. UNFORTUNATELY, I AM INCAPABLE OF GRANTING THEIR WISH OF PLASTIC FACSIMILES OF ADEPTA SORORITAS, HATED AGENTS OF THE ANATHEMA. I PROFFER UNTO THEE ANOTHER SINISTER VISION INSTEAD!
I like the polearm, just the blade on it kinda makes the chain aspect redundant? Logic n that.
yeah a chain weapon is honestly not very good at armor pen. there's a reason why chainswords in game are best at dealing with large numbers of unarmored foes
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah, if you look at the possessed dude's backpack to the right of this image, looks like the latest daemon engine is his.
GW called you out today.
MORTALS! ‘TIS I, THE DAEMON ENGINE! ONE OF YOUR PUNY NUMBER MANAGED TO GUESS MY VISION OF THE FUTURE YESTERDAY. UNFORTUNATELY, I AM INCAPABLE OF GRANTING THEIR WISH OF PLASTIC FACSIMILES OF ADEPTA SORORITAS, HATED AGENTS OF THE ANATHEMA. I PROFFER UNTO THEE ANOTHER SINISTER VISION INSTEAD!
I'm going to go with it being some kind of pole arm, partly because there seems to be a little bit nearer to the bottem of the picture that looks too small to be a hand guard. As for what unit? As much as I'd like to say new berserker kit, my money is it's based on whatever that terminator looking dude on the urban conquest image is.
Actually, the chain blades on the back cover one of the very big weaknesses of a Glaive. Now, rather than resetting for a new strike(and being open for attack during the reset), you have one hell of a backswing. That almost could be reflected in the rules with something like rerolls of 1 to hit.
There has been a surprising lack of leaks for Shadowspear. Either the leaks for prior releases have all been GW leaking things on purpose, and they just don't this time, or no one has gotten a look at the models outside of GW.
It feels like leaks have gone down in general since the whole Rumour Engine thing. I both like it, and dislike it. It's more controlled, less rumours from random people, but that was also kind of fun. I remember the whole debate when the leaked Primaris marine first appeared. There was so much discussion and speculation. It was great!
Tiberius501 wrote: Ah, if you look at the possessed dude's backpack to the right of this image, looks like the latest daemon engine is his.
GW called you out today.
MORTALS! ‘TIS I, THE DAEMON ENGINE! ONE OF YOUR PUNY NUMBER MANAGED TO GUESS MY VISION OF THE FUTURE YESTERDAY. UNFORTUNATELY, I AM INCAPABLE OF GRANTING THEIR WISH OF PLASTIC FACSIMILES OF ADEPTA SORORITAS, HATED AGENTS OF THE ANATHEMA. I PROFFER UNTO THEE ANOTHER SINISTER VISION INSTEAD!
Haha nice, soon I’ll be assimilated into the daemon engine. That chainglaive looks neat.
alleus wrote: There has been a surprising lack of leaks for Shadowspear. Either the leaks for prior releases have all been GW leaking things on purpose, and they just don't this time, or no one has gotten a look at the models outside of GW.
It feels like leaks have gone down in general since the whole Rumour Engine thing. I both like it, and dislike it. It's more controlled, less rumours from random people, but that was also kind of fun. I remember the whole debate when the leaked Primaris marine first appeared. There was so much discussion and speculation. It was great!
GW leaks stuff the same way a Kardashian leaks a sex video.... they just don't want you to know they are the ones leaking it.
Daedalus81 wrote: Conversion beamer? Whatever it is...I want 10. It's very clearly sitting on top of the tick.
Spoiler:
Could be a Beamer, but the conical lens array makes it look a lot like the genecult mining lasers. Either way it’s clearly mounted on the back spine of one of those new daemon engines; we might even have other pictures of it.
GaroRobe wrote: Nice to see the Chaos Tick will have a decent amount of builds.
As crazy as it might sound, I don't think it is the Venomspawn--or if it is, it's mounted on the head not the 'butt'. The butt's spikes are a bit longer than the pieces we're seeing in the Rumor Engine.
GaroRobe wrote: Nice to see the Chaos Tick will have a decent amount of builds.
As crazy as it might sound, I don't think it is the Venomspawn--or if it is, it's mounted on the head not the 'butt'. The butt's spikes are a bit longer than the pieces we're seeing in the Rumor Engine.
Spoiler:
Damn...you're right. I wonder what it's sitting on then. Certainly not an obliterator.
I'm not convinced yet that it's not for a Venomspawn. The spikes at the bottom and other bits still look like the ones on the far back of the tick. I think it'll just be an alternate spike build.
If you look at the bottom left corner of the weapon, it actually looks like it has a handle and trigger mechanism, implying it's a crew fired pintle weapon of some sort. That wouldn't be the tick. The caption also calls it a DELIBERATELY AMBIGUOUS IMAGE. I think we're meant to think it's the tick but its actually some sort of vehicle we haven't seen yet.
pgmason wrote: If you look at the bottom left corner of the weapon, it actually looks like it has a handle and trigger mechanism, implying it's a crew fired pintle weapon of some sort. That wouldn't be the tick. The caption also calls it a DELIBERATELY AMBIGUOUS IMAGE. I think we're meant to think it's the tick but its actually some sort of vehicle we haven't seen yet.
The more I look at it the more it appears that it is on top of the tick as it does have shorter spikes toward the back.
You could very well be correct that it's some misdirection, because it is mounted very oddly.
fraser1191 wrote: You can even see a talon wrapped around the handle too
Ridden tick, like a spiky Krootox?
That would be cool.
Not 100% convinced that's a talon/hand holding the handle, however it is pretty clear that it IS a handle with a trigger. Meaning something is mean to be manning (daemoning?) that gun.
This is certainly shaping up to be a must-buy for CSM players
yeah I'm of the opinion this is a complete chaos undivided relaunch. I bet we're gonna see the entire line re-released.or pretty clsoe to it. Bezerkers and noise marines won't get new kits with this release, as I think GW'll save them for a Khorne and slaaanish release
BrianDavion wrote: yeah I'm of the opinion this is a complete chaos undivided relaunch. I bet we're gonna see the entire line re-released.or pretty clsoe to it. Bezerkers and noise marines won't get new kits with this release, as I think GW'll save them for a Khorne and slaaanish release
If the chaos marines are re-scaled slightly as assumed, then surely that'll impact the noise marine conversion bits fitting well?
I don't disagree but I just think there will be unintended impacts on some other units such as noise marines, possibly havocs if they're not in the "first wave"
I think it's most likely that if the units coming here are rescaled/larger they'll have modified the attachement points in such a way that bits of the old kits don't fit without some degree of conversion,
so if you do want to make mixed chaos marines with arms that are too short/long you can but it will be a little bit more work, but it's not going to be the straightforward way the current sets are
But a lot of stuff is pointing towards havocs being done this time round.
I would imagine they’d thought of that.
Noise marines: do thy come in a box with the csm sprue. If so that’d just stay as an option.
If noise marines are just an upgrade sprue,, We all know more won’t be too far off, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were just gone until their new release
Also keep in mind that even Primaris marines have interchangeable shoulder pads with regular Marines. The DW upgrade sprue is proof of this.
So even is Chaos Marines are rescaled, I'm sure weapons options/shoulder pads/heads will still be compatible.
It'll probably just be their legs/height that is rescaled
BrianDavion wrote: yeah I'm of the opinion this is a complete chaos undivided relaunch. I bet we're gonna see the entire line re-released.or pretty clsoe to it. Bezerkers and noise marines won't get new kits with this release, as I think GW'll save them for a Khorne and slaaanish release
Here is the kicker, will that include a decent codex?
BrianDavion wrote: yeah I'm of the opinion this is a complete chaos undivided relaunch. I bet we're gonna see the entire line re-released.or pretty clsoe to it. Bezerkers and noise marines won't get new kits with this release, as I think GW'll save them for a Khorne and slaaanish release
Here is the kicker, will that include a decent codex?
Why? All those Cultist lists and Alpha Legion stuff, etc.. (alongside Raven Guard and Guilliman Castles/Stormraven lists) had some long, good months in the limelight from late spring 2017 up to the Knight Codex release in many (CSM) cases, while things like Space Wolves, Orks, Genestealer Cults, etc.. were still playing index (which meant basically unplayable). Not even Knights and Drukhari had as many good months on the scene as Chaos Marines did.
If anything, GW should re-vamp Codexes (especially late-release duds like Space Wolves) in reverse order.
BrianDavion wrote: yeah I'm of the opinion this is a complete chaos undivided relaunch. I bet we're gonna see the entire line re-released.or pretty clsoe to it. Bezerkers and noise marines won't get new kits with this release, as I think GW'll save them for a Khorne and slaaanish release
Here is the kicker, will that include a decent codex?
Why? All those Cultist lists and Alpha Legion stuff, etc.. (alongside Raven Guard and Guilliman Castles/Stormraven lists) had some long, good months in the limelight from late spring 2017 up to the Knight Codex release in many (CSM) cases, while things like Space Wolves, Orks, Genestealer Cults, etc.. were still playing index (which meant basically unplayable). Not even Knights and Drukhari had as many good months on the scene as Chaos Marines did.
If anything, GW should re-vamp Codexes (especially late-release duds like Space Wolves) in reverse order.
I assumed he meant a world eaters and emperor's children codex
If this is a realy big relaunch (too good to be true even if I had to redo all my current chaos marines/termis when I dont even have time to paint) maybe the posted flamer with handle is:
Update for the vehicle sprue? Could chaos-ify rhinos, preds or LR with appropiate weapons.
Will they be BIGGER Terminators, though. With nuCSM/TS/DG being a bit smaller than Primaris, will they scale Termi armour to be as tall as Primaris but chunkier? That'd be sooo nice. The DG Termis are a bit of a disappointement and converting bigger CSM Termis a lot less time consuming than Aggressors.
Binabik15 wrote: Will they be BIGGER Terminators, though. With nuCSM/TS/DG being a bit smaller than Primaris, will they scale Termi armour to be as tall as Primaris but chunkier? That'd be sooo nice. The DG Termis are a bit of a disappointement and converting bigger CSM Termis a lot less time consuming than Aggressors.
If basic grunts are getting bit bigger then sure is others going.
Binabik15 wrote: Will they be BIGGER Terminators, though. With nuCSM/TS/DG being a bit smaller than Primaris, will they scale Termi armour to be as tall as Primaris but chunkier? That'd be sooo nice. The DG Termis are a bit of a disappointement and converting bigger CSM Termis a lot less time consuming than Aggressors.
I'd bet on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Something tells me this won't be a replacement of the existing Terminator kit, but a new kind of Possessed Terminator unit.
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Nah the art is pretty clear on showing "normal" terminators.
Binabik15 wrote: Will they be BIGGER Terminators, though. With nuCSM/TS/DG being a bit smaller than Primaris, will they scale Termi armour to be as tall as Primaris but chunkier? That'd be sooo nice. The DG Termis are a bit of a disappointement and converting bigger CSM Termis a lot less time consuming than Aggressors.
If basic grunts are getting bit bigger then sure is others going.
Sure, but the Lord of Contagion is kind of wimpy compared to Primaris and the Blight Termis are also not that massive compared to Primaris. Deathshroud have the upper bodies to mstch their size, but they have spindly legs.
That's why I hope that they're not just taller, but more massive. The barrel chest of Gravis armour and its massive legs are what I'd want...just slightly smaller because the "nu-uh, Chaos can't be as tall as Primaris counterparts" thing GW has going on.
Galef wrote: Something tells me this won't be a replacement of the existing Terminator kit, but a new kind of Possessed Terminator unit.
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Nah the art is pretty clear on showing "normal" terminators.
Fair enough, but that raises the question of just how extensive this release will be. While many of the existing plastic kits are showing their age, regular Marines and Termies are that bad to merit completely new kits over updating, say Berserkers, Noise Marines & Havocs. Hopefully this will end up being a complete redesign in the same vein as Dark Eldar in 5E (6E?)
It makes sense if they are new termies, since the new abbadabbadon model will look hilarious next to the plastic chaos termies, ironic since it was the other way around before
I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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Are Eldar players the new SoB whiners who always need to bring a discussion around to their own army?
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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Are Eldar players the new SoB whiners who always need to bring a discussion around to their own army?
Aspect warriors are just an easy example, but there are other non-Eldar, non SoB kits that need new kits far more than the Chaos marines/termies/possessed. Including other Chaos models like I mentioned above, such as Berserkers, Noise Marines and Havocs.
could be, but new termies don't come as a suprise to me really the kit is old and in need of replacement, Termies are popular, closely associated with Abaddon.. the big question is, if we're getting termies if they're normal termy replacements or some kind of black legion body guard unit ala death shrouds
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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Are Eldar players the new SoB whiners who always need to bring a discussion around to their own army?
Aspect warriors are just an easy example, but there are other non-Eldar, non SoB kits that need new kits far more than the Chaos marines/termies/possessed. Including other Chaos models like I mentioned above, such as Berserkers, Noise Marines and Havocs.
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But Berserkers and Noise Marines are a different army. These guys are blank legion to go with Abaddon, I'd imagine Havocs have a pretty good chance now though.
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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Although finecast, I think the aspect warriors are much better sculpts than the chaos terminator kit.
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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I don't understand why you think GW isn't thinking logically or making sense because they are not doing what you want them to do? Revamping/rebooting the minis to the primary antagonist of their primary protagonists seems to make a hell of a lot of sense to pretty much everybody here. Which is about enough to kill your argument on the logic and sense front.
Just say something like "I don't like this" in a general discussion thread.
If it were Terminators redone (and I dont think a Trophy rack is a clear indication) it would most likely be a Black Legion specific Named Terminator variant, like the Blightlords or Scarab Occult instead of a generic reboot.
So its a safe bet that these Demon Engine previews are not limited to just the contents of the Shadow Spear battle box? New Terminators on top of everything else(new regular CSM, new possessed, new Demon engine and a new character) in the box seems unlikely.
GoatboyBeta wrote: So its a safe bet that these Demon Engine previews are not limited to just the contents of the Shadow Spear battle box? New Terminators on top of everything else(new regular CSM, new possessed, new Demon engine and a new character) in the box seems unlikely.
Yea it's shaping up to be quite a big potential release. I wonder what else Primaris might kick up.
While I agree CWE still have resin models so they could use some love. But given the context where we're in the middle of a chaos campaign it makes sense.
I expect a good amount of Tau releases when they're featured in a campaign too, or Necrons or whatever
Kanluwen wrote: I think the idea that it's "because they're that" bad is a bit silly--did you ever consider that it might be because the sculpts are considered poor and they wanted to add new stuff to the Terminators?
Part of why I don't consider this is because SOOO many other models are in much greater need of resculpt. The current plastic Chaos Termies are perfectly adequate compared to Eldar Aspect warriors that are not only still in finecast, but encompass a wider variety of units.
So while agree new Termies would be great, why the feth isn't that effort going into other models that need it more? But I need to stop thinking logically and just accept the GW's gonna do what it wants, even if it makes less sense.
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Are Eldar players the new SoB whiners who always need to bring a discussion around to their own army?
Aspect warriors are just an easy example, but there are other non-Eldar, non SoB kits that need new kits far more than the Chaos marines/termies/possessed. Including other Chaos models like I mentioned above, such as Berserkers, Noise Marines and Havocs.
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Who says we're not getting new Berzerkers, Noise Marines, or Havocs?
Additionally, Eldar players need to remember that there was a lot of talk surrounding Ynnari being a "multifaction" look and book.
fraser1191 wrote: While I agree CWE still have resin models so they could use some love. But given the context where we're in the middle of a chaos campaign it makes sense.
I expect a good amount of Tau releases when they're featured in a campaign too, or Necrons or whatever
I absolutely agree that in context, it makes very good business sense to focus on the factions prominently featured in a current campaign. What doesn't make sense is that GW keeps choosing campaigns that have nothing to do with factions that could use the product update. Or missing the opportunity to release the product (the codex release or several 7E campaigns featuring Eldar would have been a great time to update Aspects for example)
It also makes me scratch my head when new kits are released before other, much needed ones even when the faction is being featured in a campaign. The Obliterators in this release, for example are great. The kit was in dire need of a plastic update. Makes perfect sense. It will also make sense to be a dual kit with Mutilators, but time will tell. Ya know what else needs an update and fits right in with Black Legion? Havocs. No sign that those are getting an update and they need it FAR more than Termies or Possessed
That. That is what doesn't make sense to me. It has nothing to do with "my narrative" as an Eldar player that I want Aspect Warriors updated. I don't really even play Aspect Warriors and am skilled enough to convert my own when I do. I want plastic Aspect Warriors out of a sense of completion. My OCD can't handle the fact that in 2019, the entire GW range is still not plastic Everything should be made plastic BEFORE new kits are made for existing plastic kits. It's as frustrating as when factions were getting 2+ Codices in a single edition when older factions were still 2-3 editions behind
Kanluwen wrote: Who says we're not getting new Berzerkers, Noise Marines, or Havocs?
If this is a head-to-toe complete product relaunch of most CSM kits, that'd be great. Heck, if they are holding off on Berserkers/Noise Marines because a WE/EC codex is in the works, that'd be awesome too
Yea it's shaping up to be quite a big potential release. I wonder what else Primaris might kick up.
I'm honestly not expecting a whole lot of stuff for the Primaris. I'm thinking this will be about on par with the Stormcast Rangers stuff: A 'core' troop, a couple of heroes, and a specialist set.
Nightlord1987 wrote: If it were Terminators redone (and I dont think a Trophy rack is a clear indication) it would most likely be a Black Legion specific Named Terminator variant, like the Blightlords or Scarab Occult instead of a generic reboot.
Considering Black Legion are the Chaos equivalent of Ultramarines, I think we are more likely to see a generic kit with a duel build option- the second build may be to make Abaddon's bodyguard or something.
Galef wrote: I absolutely agree that in context, it makes very good business sense to focus on the factions prominently featured in a current campaign.
What doesn't make sense is that GW keeps choosing campaigns that have nothing to do with factions that could use the product update. Or missing the opportunity to release the product (the codex release or several 7E campaigns featuring Eldar would have been a great time to update Aspects for example)
It also makes me scratch my head when new kits are released before other, much needed ones even when the faction is being featured in a campaign.
The Obliterators in this release, for example are great. The kit was in dire need of a plastic update. Makes perfect sense. It will also make sense to be a dual kit with Mutilators, but time will tell.
Ya know what else needs an update and fits right in with Black Legion? Havocs. No sign that those are getting an update and they need it FAR more than Termies or Possessed
That. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
It has nothing to do with "my narrative" as an Eldar player that I want Aspect Warriors updated. I don't really even play Aspect Warriors and am skilled enough to convert my own when I do.
I want plastic Aspect Warriors out of a sense of completion. My OCD can't handle the fact that in 2019, the entire GW range is still not plastic
Everything should be made plastic BEFORE new kits are made for existing plastic kits.
It's as frustrating as when factions were getting 2+ Codices in a single edition when older factions were still 2-3 editions behind
Thsi was already discussed in length. Havocs are boring, they're just CSM with a heavy weapon. You might yet get new ones, and even if you don't with the new base CSM kit you're like 90% done; just glue some marine big guns on them. The Possessed are an unique chaos thing, and thus it makes sense to focus on them. The current approach is to differentiate the CSM from the loyalists, so focus is on stuff that's not just 'like loyalists, but with spikes.'
Furthermore, whilst I personally think that plastic is much better material than resin, not everyone agrees. FW stuff is resin, and is supposedly premium product (and certainly priced as such!) And considering that Aspect Warriors really have no gear options, nor they thematically need such, there is not actually much to be gained by turning them into plastic.
Galef wrote: I absolutely agree that in context, it makes very good business sense to focus on the factions prominently featured in a current campaign.
What doesn't make sense is that GW keeps choosing campaigns that have nothing to do with factions that could use the product update. Or missing the opportunity to release the product (the codex release or several 7E campaigns featuring Eldar would have been a great time to update Aspects for example)
It also makes me scratch my head when new kits are released before other, much needed ones even when the faction is being featured in a campaign.
The Obliterators in this release, for example are great. The kit was in dire need of a plastic update. Makes perfect sense. It will also make sense to be a dual kit with Mutilators, but time will tell.
Ya know what else needs an update and fits right in with Black Legion? Havocs. No sign that those are getting an update and they need it FAR more than Termies or Possessed
That. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
It has nothing to do with "my narrative" as an Eldar player that I want Aspect Warriors updated. I don't really even play Aspect Warriors and am skilled enough to convert my own when I do.
I want plastic Aspect Warriors out of a sense of completion. My OCD can't handle the fact that in 2019, the entire GW range is still not plastic
Everything should be made plastic BEFORE new kits are made for existing plastic kits.
It's as frustrating as when factions were getting 2+ Codices in a single edition when older factions were still 2-3 editions behind
Thsi was already discussed in length. Havocs are boring, they're just CSM with a heavy weapon. You might yet get new ones, and even if you don't with the new base CSM kit you're like 90% done; just glue some marine big guns on them. The Possessed are an unique chaos thing, and thus it makes sense to focus on them. The current approach is to differentiate the CSM from the loyalists, so focus is on stuff that's not just 'like loyalists, but with spikes.'
Furthermore, whilst I personally think that plastic is much better material than resin, not everyone agrees. FW stuff is resin, and is supposedly premium product (and certainly priced as such!) And considering that Aspect Warriors really have no gear options, nor they thematically need such, there is not actually much to be gained by turning them into plastic.
I generally agree, although I think plastoc Havocs will look great- simply porting over loyalist weapons won't look as good as a dedicated kit. Just look at that awesome heavy bolter!
Also, Aspects definitely need plastics- the basic troopers don't have options, but the Exarchs sure do! Aspects basically combine their leader and special weapons trooper into one. Some Exarch weapons have not had available options for years, if ever. If you look at the Dire Avenger sprue, it is full of Exarch options- 4 in total.
At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Ynnari use the aspects as well though, don't they? I don't see how Ynnari would preclude any plastic Aspect Warrior kits.
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Well, the old termies don't meet the new proportions and would look tiny by comparison. As for grim dark - CSM can still go toe to toe and get an advantage with horrifying gibbering daemon engines.
Know what makes business sense , big boxes of new models which are sellable to new players and owners of at least two existing armies.
Sales of Aspect Warriors are so bad most are GW direct only. Sure it’s a catch 22 situation but ultimately they didn’t decide to stiff Eldar players for the lols.
Nor is it neglecting niche factions - Sisters are getting a release based on a sustained campaign from fans which has persisted for years and kept alive by the supremely limited availability of very old overpriced models.
But new sets of combo kits (Scorp/Dragon, Banshee/Hawk, Reaper/Spider) with all the plastic Exarch bits included, in small boxes of, say, 6 models (for the price of 10!) would be enough to bring them back and cut their SKU count in half (plus less resin in production).
It would also allow for more Start Collecting!/Battleforce style boxes that don't just always have Guardians/Dire Avengers.
Then they repurpose the CAD files for Jetbikes to do a Shining Spear kit and even make a new Ynnari-only Jetbike Aspect unit if they need to get more bang out of that buck.
Then recut or even redesign the Guardian sprue to be more monopose include Storm Guardian parts, and you cut out another type of conversion kit and give Eldar players a reason to purchase Guardians again.
TwilightSparkles wrote: Know what makes business sense , big boxes of new models which are sellable to new players and owners of at least two existing armies.
Sales of Aspect Warriors are so bad most are GW direct only. Sure it’s a catch 22 situation but ultimately they didn’t decide to stiff Eldar players for the lols.
Nor is it neglecting niche factions - Sisters are getting a release based on a sustained campaign from fans which has persisted for years and kept alive by the supremely limited availability of very old overpriced models.
Well, no. Sisters are happening because GW's survey gave them real numbers to take to management, something they couldn't do with angry internet fanatics. Or metal overstock they couldn't shift.
If, in the new survey, people respond with ' plastic aspects' the way they did with sisters, we'll see plastic aspects.
In the mean time, whatever chaos releases we're seeing isn't the result of kit X being 'too boring' because someone on the internet says so. In this cases the designers pushed for these kits and got a go ahead based on likely sales for one of many model lines that have been neglected. At least partly because the 8th Edition codex Rush is finished and they can do proper projects again.
as a long time player...and well having played a lot of 8th edition at this point.....
If this box just has Chaos space marines...like mary sue 13ppm CSM....I don't care what they look like they are completely unplayable right now in 8th edition.
So it better include a major rules overhaul for the models included because right now Heretic Astartes are a junk faction...and the cultists nerf was just taking away points from a faction that already had a tough time in the current scene.
Not to derail the talk about TRAITOROUS SCUM THAT DESERVE A THOUSAND BOLTER ROUNDS TO THE BUTTHOLE AND POSSIBLY ALSO NOOGIES AND SWIRLIES...
...but serious question. These Primaris Vanguard- what company do you think this is? 10th? Everything I've been reading through on Space Marine company structures is kinda murky or gets a shrug whenever I try to figure out which company things like Reivers will go.
...but serious question. These Primaris Vanguard- what company do you think this is? 10th? Everything I've been reading through on Space Marine company structures is kinda murky or gets a shrug whenever I try to figure out which company things like Reivers will go.
It seems like it will vary upon whether or not it is a pure Primaris Chapter or not.
Strike Force Shadowspear, for example, seems to be 2nd Company. Reivers are designated as "Close Support Elements"(same with Inceptors) and seem to be part of a Company at large.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Not to derail the talk about TRAITOROUS SCUM THAT DESERVE A THOUSAND BOLTER ROUNDS TO THE BUTTHOLE AND POSSIBLY ALSO NOOGIES AND SWIRLIES...
...but serious question. These Primaris Vanguard- what company do you think this is? 10th? Everything I've been reading through on Space Marine company structures is kinda murky or gets a shrug whenever I try to figure out which company things like Reivers will go.
The battleifld names have changed:
Battleline
Veteran
Close Support
Fire Support
Command
So each Company would have: 6 Battleline, 2 Close Support, 2 Fire Support, some Dreads and then the Command (a Captain and 2 Lieutenants). This gets a little murky with Primaris-Only and blended companies (that contain both Primaris and normal marines). In the end they try to keep it to around 100 men total but this is a little wonky with Inceptors and Aggressors being capped at 6 models, so you could easily have more than 10 squads in a Company (but it should work out to around 100 men).
Intersessors are Battleline
Reivers are Close Support
Aggressors are Fire Support
Hellblasters are Fire Support
Inceptors are Close Support
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Not to derail the talk about TRAITOROUS SCUM THAT DESERVE A THOUSAND BOLTER ROUNDS TO THE BUTTHOLE AND POSSIBLY ALSO NOOGIES AND SWIRLIES...
...but serious question. These Primaris Vanguard- what company do you think this is? 10th? Everything I've been reading through on Space Marine company structures is kinda murky or gets a shrug whenever I try to figure out which company things like Reivers will go.
What little artwork we have so far shows the Vanguard with the gold trim usually used by the Ultramarines 2nd company. Putting aside artistic license I see a few possible explanations.
The 2nd company is now the Vanguard company. Sucks to be you if your non Vanguard Ultras(or other Codex compliant Chapter) have gold/yellow trim.
The Ultras have changed there heraldry and everyone now has gold trim. Sucks to be you if your boys in blue have any other colour on there shoulder pads.
Each company now has a Vanguard element. Just don't mention the 100 Marine size limit.
Same as above. But big papa smurf has turned in the first rough draft of his 2nd edition Codex and he's reconsidered the company and chapter size limits so he can fit in all the new toys Cawl made for him while he was in stasis.
Primaris Marines are not locked into a particular role, and will change there armour and weapons depending on the mission. But by the end of the Shadow Spear boxes storyline the Ultras have a mostly dead 2nd company(check out Vigilus page 122).
To add to the new Codex structure, squads can now be 5 or 10 Marines and there is an expanded heraldry section for squad symbols and numbers for squads above the tenth.
There won't be new aspects unless GW has a reason to sell you more models. If (when) a Ynnari codex is released, they could then create hybrids as already mentioned with a 3rd option being more Ynnari focused and have a separate entry in the Ynnari codex.
bullyboy wrote: There won't be new aspects unless GW has a reason to sell you more models. If (when) a Ynnari codex is released, they could then create hybrids as already mentioned with a 3rd option being more Ynnari focused and have a separate entry in the Ynnari codex.
Aspects are stuck in a catch-22 where nobody would buy new models because the rules are bad and they don't really have a role in 8th, but it's a low priority to fix up the rules because nobody uses them. And Eldar are already good with other units, so they are low priority compared to Marines, which are very weak for their popularity/potential to sell kits.
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....
MajorWesJanson wrote: When they come out with Emperors Children, that would be a good time for a battle box vs Eldar...
we just had a box with eldar in the form of wake the dead. I can't say for sure but I suspect of all the boxes put out it was the worst selling. mostly because it was "yet another box with primaris" and was essentially competing with know no fear, yet charging far more. sadly GW'll look at it and decide that it's due to low eldar popularity I bet
So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?
I would love times down versions of the Phoenix lords. I always thought they were too loud! Especially compared to the rest of the range and the ascetic nature of Craftworlds..
Darkseid wrote: So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?
My money goes on a codex v2.0 in order to get that sweet recuring revenue.
Darkseid wrote: So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?
Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.
Darkseid wrote: So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?
Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.
New 40k is following a lot of the guidelines from AoS. We have the 3rd Battletome for Stormcast already (1 each year), so I can totally see Space Marines and Chaos v2.
Darkseid wrote: So given that this is shaping up to be a much bigger release than expected, can we assume a new (undivided) chaos codex in the near future? Or will all the new rules be folded into the Vigilus book?
Have GW ever released two codices for the same faction within one edition of 40k? I'm not sure if they have, or ever will. I would rather bet that they release updated rules in something like Vigilus.
New 40k is following a lot of the guidelines from AoS. We have the 3rd Battletome for Stormcast already (1 each year), so I can totally see Space Marines and Chaos v2.
True, could be the case. It would be better than spreading out the units over multiple books. Best of all would be a digital codex that would get updated with all new things, but that will never happen.
My hope would be that Forgeworld finally releses some corrupted versions of various heresy vehicles instead of doing uncountable legion specific models.
It could be said that Chaos got 5 codexes in 3rd edition. They got their original (crappy) one, and then 4 versions of the 3.5 codex, with each version ever so slightly different from the last.
Darkseid wrote: My hope would be that Forgeworld finally releses some corrupted versions of various heresy vehicles instead of doing uncountable legion specific models.
I do want them to go back and do the contemptors at least for the legions who missed out on them (Ultramarines) if not leviathans.
I do think a lot of people put too much emphasis on how things were done before.
This is a new way for GW with this and AoS, and the format has drastically changed.
Now they did say there wouldn’t be ‘editions’ any more and the rule set itself would evolve (kind of like AoS got, so we will get a 8th Ed 2.0 - obviously they’ll still want to put out new rulebooks, but I guess the changes will be less of a huge overhaul, wrapping in a couple of years worth of Chapter Approved etc).
Asherian Command wrote: quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?
I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation
Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.
What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!
MajorWesJanson wrote: When they come out with Emperors Children, that would be a good time for a battle box vs Eldar...
Don't be silly. You know Emprah's Kiddies will be versus Sisters.
Danny76 wrote: I do think a lot of people put too much emphasis on how things were done before.
This is a new way for GW with this and AoS, and the format has drastically changed.
Now they did say there wouldn’t be ‘editions’ any more and the rule set itself would evolve (kind of like AoS got, so we will get a 8th Ed 2.0 - obviously they’ll still want to put out new rulebooks, but I guess the changes will be less of a huge overhaul, wrapping in a couple of years worth of Chapter Approved etc).
Just a thought, but if you have to put "edition" in quotation marks, any such statement by GW is useless. Especially so considering we have AoS 2nd ed now.
It's worth considering that from 1998 to 2017, that's five editions and almost two decades, GW released 3rd ed and four followups on the same foundation. Everyone still considers those editions, even though they are not too dissimilar from the magnitude of changes in the General's Handbook or Chapter Approved.
9th ed will come and GW will call it that*. As you say, they want to sell those rule books.
*Unless 8th ed is the narrative equivalent of the End Times, but drawn out more. Then we'll get Age of Emprah.
Asherian Command wrote: quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?
I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation
Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.
What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!
Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.
Asherian Command wrote: quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?
I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation
Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.
What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!
Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.
"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....
Asherian Command wrote: quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?
I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation
Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.
What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!
Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.
"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?
It does not say "explicitly created for this one mission"...but it should be obvious to anyone who heard the Nemendghast video for the Vanguard that this is the same deal.
I quoted the exact text earlier, but here goes again:
Vigilus Defiant page 122. Second Phase of the War of Beasts wrote:
7.230 Post: A Terrifying Find
On Nemendghast, an Ultramarines Vanguard strike force discovers the corrupted Black Legion flesh factory known as the Forge Infernus. Though heavily outnumbered by Daemonkin warriors led by the Master of Possession Vorash Soulflayer, the Ultramarines battle-brothers launch a sabotage operation, crippling the forge. Their victory comes at great cost; of the strike force, only the Librarian Maltis escapes the planet to warn Calgar of the threat lurking at the edge of the Vigilus System, with his fellow battle-brothers recorded as missing in action.
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....
Asherian Command wrote: quick question isn't the shadow spear battle's aftermath mentioned in the Vigilius Defiant book?
I think the battle in Vigilius Defiant happens before Shadow Spear. Shadow Spear is sent in retaliation
Shadowspear is the event mentioned there.
What's to stop GW from having Shadowspear parts one and two? We know the first one ended with the escape of the Librarian. Maybe he's going to round up some more boys for round two and come back in Shadowspear II: Vanguard Harder!
Because we also know that even though it "ended with the escape of the Librarian", we also know that they destroyed the Forge Infernus on Nemendghast.
"Crippled" the forge from photos I've seen. Does it actually say in the book that the strike force is named Shadowspear and explicitly created for exactly this one mission, no more, no less, or is that just your opinion?
It does not say "explicitly created for this one mission"...but it should be obvious to anyone who heard the Nemendghast video for the Vanguard that this is the same deal.
I quoted the exact text earlier, but here goes again:
Vigilus Defiant page 122. Second Phase of the War of Beasts wrote:
7.230 Post: A Terrifying Find
On Nemendghast, an Ultramarines Vanguard strike force discovers the corrupted Black Legion flesh factory known as the Forge Infernus. Though heavily outnumbered by Daemonkin warriors led by the Master of Possession Vorash Soulflayer, the Ultramarines battle-brothers launch a sabotage operation, crippling the forge. Their victory comes at great cost; of the strike force, only the Librarian Maltis escapes the planet to warn Calgar of the threat lurking at the edge of the Vigilus System, with his fellow battle-brothers recorded as missing in action.
Sorry, I don't see it that way. Yes, the video could relate to the blurb in Vigilus 1, but crippled is a non-word that could mean anything from temporarily out of action to destroyed. That's not proof that the battle box outcome has been spoiled.
We came to this accursed world as saviours, but there is nothing left to save. Only a nightmare of flesh and metal, of dark industry and unholy creations. The forges of Nemendghast will fall...
We might have to agree to disagree here, but given that Urban Conquest spoiled the Vanguard Marines and the Venomcrawler? It looks like Shadowspear is supposed to be part of the "close" of the bits leading up to Abaddon showing up.
I am getting more and more excited about this. I really hope all these new things and potential new things (Oblits with more visible actual weapons, Chainglaive etc.) heralds a new codex whether for Black Legion or CSM altogether. It seems like there are too many things now to just be a few sheets in Vigilus 2 or Shadowspear.
This does now look like a full release for CSM, which is long overdue. I’ve occasionally thought about making a chaos army but been out of by the range. And by the rules, to be honest.
The Eldar and CSM ranges share a lot of the same problems. Each contains a ton of minis that have been designed by different people, using different techniques and materials, decades apart. The result is that they don’t really look that coherent together and they contain some pretty bad models.
I’d argue that CSM are the easier of the two to fix. It’s fairly simple to replace a bad plastic kit with a new, better one. Sooner or later they’re going to have to redo the aspect warriors in plastic though, and that’ll be tricky. Or maybe not too bad if they go for monopose, I guess.
For CSM the other issue is rules. Nobody actually uses chaos marines at the moment, as they’re pretty terrible. I really hope that changes somehow. Personally what I’d do is give all marines Primaris stats, as I think they have the profiles that marines always should have had. Just don’t worry too much about the size of them, or say that any oldmarines who are still kicking around are now tough enough to make up the difference.
I think it's clear that if these are just new CSM and Terminator kits without rule updates, they aren't gonna sell anywhere near what they could. They either need to be new units of their own, or we need a new Codex. But would that be a new Codex CSM, or a Codex Black Legion, as was rumored was coming last summer?
A Codex BL seems pretty redundant with regular CSM, so I hope it's not that. But if it is a new codex, will they be able to make updates to the marine stat line to fix them? If they do, they'll have to immediately follow with a new codex SM to update them too. And also updates to the basic marine stats in BA/DA/SW/1ksons/DG. Considering the difficulty of all that, I wouldn't be surprised if these end up being new units.
Apparently it's down to 2 weeks. So I guess it'll go on pre-order either this weekend or next, but since there was no "shadow spear up for pre-order this weekend" post on the community page it's not this Saturday.
streetsamurai wrote: At this point, I'm pretty sure Eldar aspects will bever get some plastic kits. Theyll focus on the Ynari and quietly and slowly phase the aspects out.
I'm surprised most seem to think Chaos terminators are a bad kit. I think it still look pretty great, but I'm all for an update (but I sincerly doubt we'll get a new kit for them).
Must say that this box really emphase one of the reason I hate the primaris so much. Now the average CSM is smaller and weaker than the generic good guy. So not Grim dark
Uh, the new CSM scupts from Death Guard, 1k Sons and BS fortress are all as tall as primaris....
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: I think it's clear that if these are just new CSM and Terminator kits without rule updates, they aren't gonna sell anywhere near what they could. They either need to be new units of their own, or we need a new Codex. But would that be a new Codex CSM, or a Codex Black Legion, as was rumored was coming last summer?
A Codex BL seems pretty redundant with regular CSM, so I hope it's not that. But if it is a new codex, will they be able to make updates to the marine stat line to fix them? If they do, they'll have to immediately follow with a new codex SM to update them too. And also updates to the basic marine stats in BA/DA/SW/1ksons/DG. Considering the difficulty of all that, I wouldn't be surprised if these end up being new units.
Now see if they didn't already have the 13th crusade it could have been a new Codex: Eye of Terror and include Traitor Guard and the like. But I think this will be a good telling point: If it's Codex Black Legion, then we may be in for more focused codex supplements to flesh out various armies. If it's Codex: CSM 8.5, then we may see them do like they currently are for AOS and updating older books with second/third passes to fix them. And if it's just Vigilus 2 with updated datasheets, then that could indicate "Warzone" campaign books that will be their way of updating various factions.
I actually would not mind seeing them go the Forgeworld campaign book approach and have a warzone book with sections for various factions with like updated datasheets and new datasheets if applicable. That could be an interesting way to do multiple updates at one shot for multiple factions instead of spreading out full codex releases every couple of months. Privateer Press managed to do that pretty well with Warmahordes; you would get a book every few months that moved the story along and had a new unit or couple of new units for everyone.
Aren't people going to hate having to buy every campaign book and bring them along with them in addition to their codex just to have all the rules for their army?
Albino Squirrel wrote: Aren't people going to hate having to buy every campaign book and bring them along with them in addition to their codex just to have all the rules for their army?
Doubtful. I brought my codex, vigilus, and CA2018 to LVO, never once did I get any of the books out of my bag, the whole weekend, 9 games.
Over time the information gets commuted to memory for most people, and the books become a "i told you so" novelty.
They have got me hyped big time, very excited. Really want the Primaris for my crimson fists and I'm thinking of iron warriors for the new chaos stuff.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Aren't people going to hate having to buy every campaign book and bring them along with them in addition to their codex just to have all the rules for their army?
I don't really care about books as long as I can play a good army with nice models. As others have said, it all ends up memorized. And I'll have .pdfs on my phone/laptop. And if needed, i'll even print out the needed pages of each book into my own binder. Not a lot of work compared to what goes into building and painting.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Aren't people going to hate having to buy every campaign book and bring them along with them in addition to their codex just to have all the rules for their army?
I don't really care about books as long as I can play a good army with nice models. As others have said, it all ends up memorized. And I'll have .pdfs on my phone/laptop. And if needed, i'll even print out the needed pages of each book into my own binder. Not a lot of work compared to what goes into building and painting.
This is it right here. Play your army, learn it and the books can pretty much stay on the shelf. Plus printing stuff out seems to be the way to minimize everything to one book/binder. Seems like the people moaning about the problem aren't searching for a solution
Albino Squirrel wrote: Aren't people going to hate having to buy every campaign book and bring them along with them in addition to their codex just to have all the rules for their army?
I don't really care about books as long as I can play a good army with nice models. As others have said, it all ends up memorized. And I'll have .pdfs on my phone/laptop. And if needed, i'll even print out the needed pages of each book into my own binder. Not a lot of work compared to what goes into building and painting.
This is it right here. Play your army, learn it and the books can pretty much stay on the shelf. Plus printing stuff out seems to be the way to minimize everything to one book/binder. Seems like the people moaning about the problem aren't searching for a solution
That's fine for casual gaming, but should be considered unacceptable in tournament play. If you're going to play an army, it's your responsibility to be able to cite and show on demand the rules you're using. Your opponents can't be expected to know every rule that applies to your army.
But *WHEN* is it happening? I've looked through this thread but can't quite find any info on when this might be available...
Indeed, but I’ve been waiting for over 15 years for new Chaos stuff, another couple of weeks should be no problem.
Looks like new Abaddon might go up on preorder for my birthday, how appropriate.
I feel the same. And I’ve been hoping new CSM would come out ever since the awesome sculpts of Dark Vengeance. It’s about damn time they finally are coming out with equally great looking CSM troops. And that Sorcerer too...
But seriously, I wonder if Chaos Termies will finally get Combi-Plasmas?
Well, we've had at least three units teased already, and one of those could be from a Havocs kit (although likely just from the CSM box), plus the Daemon Engine doesn't seem to be slowing down. I'm hopeful for a full CSM Undivided revamp including Havocs personally. If they redo CSMs, Terminators, Possessed, Havocs, and some of the HQs (most likely the Sorceror), then really only the Defiler will look horribly old within the range.
Of course, I am assuming Berzerkers and Noise Marines will come in their own releases similar to Thousand Sons and Death Guard.
I'm glad we're seeing more an more Chaos stuff, I really am.
But, considering the poor state of Chaos at this time, and for MANY years- I have no Chaos Army, and no desire to start one.
I'm playing Deathwatch, but I'm willing to make a very small force of standard loyalist Astartes- maybe even being limited to Kill-Team.
Not to be 'the bitter person' here, but I'd like to see some kind of information about using these models in Kill-Team, what other Astartes factions will be able to use them, and the additional box contents- Commando Librarian and Sniper guys are cool and all, but I''d like a bit more actual information and box content teasers.
You know, I would die laughing if, with all of these new Chaos releases (Marines, Terminators, Possessed, Obliterators, new Daemon Engine), they STILL didn't make a new Havoc kit. Just out of spite. Not that it would be a cool thing, it would just be so stupid, it would be funny.
casvalremdeikun wrote: You know, I would die laughing if, with all of these new Chaos releases (Marines, Terminators, Possessed, Obliterators, new Daemon Engine), they STILL didn't make a new Havoc kit. Just out of spite. Not that it would be a cool thing, it would just be so stupid, it would be funny.
I think the clever workaround there would be to do what AoS does and have kits that let you build either of them with one box.
casvalremdeikun wrote: You know, I would die laughing if, with all of these new Chaos releases (Marines, Terminators, Possessed, Obliterators, new Daemon Engine), they STILL didn't make a new Havoc kit. Just out of spite. Not that it would be a cool thing, it would just be so stupid, it would be funny.
I think the clever workaround there would be to do what AoS does and have kits that let you build either of them with one box.
If they made the Marine kit in a way that supports that, it would be ideal. But GW is sort of getting away from universal kits. So far, it is One Kit=One Datasheet. There are obviously some exceptions, but for Primaris Marines and likely bog-standard Chaos Marines, this is probably going to be the case.
Haighus wrote: Of course, I am assuming Berzerkers and Noise Marines will come in their own releases similar to Thousand Sons and Death Guard.
I would hope so, with a full proper release of Power Armour/Termies/Specialist Unit/etc, that Thousand Sons and Death Guard got. Although I'd hope their miniatures are more ofthis, and less ofthis.
And if they put 6 Noise Marines in a box and charge you for 10 like they did for 7 Death Guard, then that's a whole other issue...
But seriously, I wonder if Chaos Termies will finally get Combi-Plasmas?
Wouldn't be farfetched to assume that a revamped CSM kit will include a handful of heavy weapons to make Havocs out of. Also sounds like something they would do, not give you enough in one box to kit out duplicates which encourages buying multiple kits to have a unit with the same weapons
But seriously, I wonder if Chaos Termies will finally get Combi-Plasmas?
Wouldn't be farfetched to assume that a revamped CSM kit will include a handful of heavy weapons to make Havocs out of. Also sounds like something they would do, not give you enough in one box to kit out duplicates which encourages buying multiple kits to have a unit with the same weapons
Optimum result would be a havoc box near identical to the sm devastator box. 5 bodies, and pairs of heavy weapons- heavy bolter, rocket launcher, lascannon, reaper autocannon, maybe ectoplasma cannon and one more, like baleflamer? Then some upgrades for the unit leader.
Csm squad will likely be just heavy bolter and reaper autocannon option for heavy, and flamer, melta, plasma for special, and leader options.
Here’s a minority opinion: They shouldn’t bring out a havoc kit because havocs are just spiky devastators. Why do chaos marines have devastator squads?
Among the many things with chaos space marines that make no sense (starting with their stat line) is that they follow the codex astartes in their squad configuration, fielding tactical, devastator and assault squads. Why do they did they ever start doing that? Why are they still doing it, now that even the loyalist marines have stopped?
I don’t have a problem with there being CSMs with heavy weapons. But their organisation should be totally different. They should either follow the legion structure, say in the case of Iron Warriors, or for some of the more “out there” legions they should have barely any visible organisation at all.
I too demand rules leaks. I’m putting together a Primaris army for the GT finals. It’s looking like these models could be in shops the week before the event, which would mean some rapid painting on my part!
Mandragola wrote: Here’s a minority opinion: They shouldn’t bring out a havoc kit because havocs are just spiky devastators. Why do chaos marines have devastator squads?
Among the many things with chaos space marines that make no sense (starting with their stat line) is that they follow the codex astartes in their squad configuration, fielding tactical, devastator and assault squads. Why do they did they ever start doing that? Why are they still doing it, now that even the loyalist marines have stopped?
I don’t have a problem with there being CSMs with heavy weapons. But their organisation should be totally different. They should either follow the legion structure, say in the case of Iron Warriors, or for some of the more “out there” legions they should have barely any visible organisation at all.
I too demand rules leaks. I’m putting together a Primaris army for the GT finals. It’s looking like these models could be in shops the week before the event, which would mean some rapid painting on my part!
So the marines that were in devastator equivalents during the HH should just put their heavy weapons down and go nuts with a bolt pistol and chainsword? What about chapters that have recently gone renegade?
Yeah, it's boring that they are just spikes marines, but the fluff justification of it is glaring and obvious.
There weren’t devastator equivalents in the heresy. There were heavy weapon squads, in which everyone had a heavy weapon. And I said I don’t have a problem with chaos marines with heavy weapons – just with CSM devastators.
To be fair to GW, the legion list didn’t exist when they wrote the fluff for chaos marines. But I’m pretty sure that the idea of the codex did, and it’s odd that CSMs follow it.
As for recent converts… yeah that’s a problem, and always has been. The age-old question of where their land speeders, razorbacks and assault cannons have gone and where they found reaper autocannons. I guess you can now add the question of what happened to all their Primaris stuff.
Personally I think it’d have been better to have “renegade” be a chapter tactic for normal marines and then do the old legions entirely separately. Or at least that would work for the fluff – I don’t know how well it would work in game balance terms.
Legion heavy weapon sergeants have the option to swap their heavy weapon for the normal mix of sergeant cc and ranged weapons. Maybe treat havoc squads more like long fangs than codex devastators.
The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.
What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.
H.B.M.C. wrote: GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.
Maybe but I also highly doubt they are giving more than 1 of each special weapon and 1 heavy weapon only (probably that heavy bolter) in the kit either. So whether they intend for it or not that's likely what will happen because nobody is dumb enough to buy 4 boxes of CSM to get enough special weapons to equip a squad, and it's not likely they will include multiple heavy weapons because they never do.
Hopefully a new Dark Apostle. But it could be a sorcerer, we already saw as a rumor engine a backpack with dragon iconography that looked identical to the old 2nd edition sorcerer backpack.
This really does seem like a complete revamp of the model line. Which I hope beyond hope means a new codex. Great looking models with gak rules are still gak overall.
I'm sort of looking out to see if there are any new Cultist daemon engines. It'd be pretty boss if they got a proper Cultist kit based on the Blackstone Fortress Traiter Guardsmen.
Wayniac wrote: The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.
What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.
If they're going to do Havocs like they've done Devastators, you're getting 2 of each heavy weapon.
I've been wondering though if they'll split off the Special Weapons into their own schtick instead. Havocs with both special and heavy weapon options? That makes for some very packed sprues.
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm sort of looking out to see if there are any new Cultist daemon engines. It'd be pretty boss if they got a proper Cultist kit based on the Blackstone Fortress Traiter Guardsmen.
I would love if you had a way to like, use Traitor Guard as the shooty cultists, and use Beastmen (maybe with some mutants/humans) with pistols and weapons as the melee (ha) cultists. Might be a good way to get variety since cultists usually would not look uniform at all.
However part of me also wants a full-fledged "Codex: Lost and the Damned" to replace Renegades & Heretics. I found the old Codex: Eye of Terror and really, they need to bring this back and in a proper form (along with the 3.5 CSM codex but that's another topic). Hopefully traitor guard and beastmen from BSF herald it for the future?
Traitors, Mutants (beastmen and other stuff that you could give mutations for certain bonuses), traitor tanks (Leman Russ or Basilisk in those days).
Bah reading this brings back memories of when Chaos was good, in the golden age of 3.5
Mandragola wrote: Here’s a minority opinion: They shouldn’t bring out a havoc kit because havocs are just spiky devastators. Why do chaos marines have devastator squads?
Among the many things with chaos space marines that make no sense (starting with their stat line) is that they follow the codex astartes in their squad configuration, fielding tactical, devastator and assault squads. Why do they did they ever start doing that? Why are they still doing it, now that even the loyalist marines have stopped?
I don’t have a problem with there being CSMs with heavy weapons. But their organisation should be totally different. They should either follow the legion structure, say in the case of Iron Warriors, or for some of the more “out there” legions they should have barely any visible organisation at all.
I too demand rules leaks. I’m putting together a Primaris army for the GT finals. It’s looking like these models could be in shops the week before the event, which would mean some rapid painting on my part!
So the marines that were in devastator equivalents during the HH should just put their heavy weapons down and go nuts with a bolt pistol and chainsword? What about chapters that have recently gone renegade?
Yeah, it's boring that they are just spikes marines, but the fluff justification of it is glaring and obvious.
They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.
Remember also that the way the Chaos roster has been set up for the last 30 years has also been a reflection of the way Loyalist chapters were set up.
We always look to the old legions as the focal point for Chaos Marines, but many Chaos Warbands are rogue Loyalist Chapters who adhered to the Codex Astartes before they fell to chaos.
Thats why they follow the same structure. They've been using that style of warfare for hundreds of years, changing allegiances isn't going to immediately affect the way you fight a war.
Thats why we still have havocs, tactical squads etc...
Not to mention that Legion structure and organization has only been fleshed out in the last like 7 years since the HH series started. Before then we just had fluff to go by, and most of our kits are way older than 7 years old.
My opinion: Give me the classics man. I don't care for this Primaris bs. They should have never been created, I don't want stupid new names for squads like hellblasters just because they are devastator squads who use plasma exclusively. I want options, this isn't eldar. One unit isn't supposed to do one specific thing. Marines are supposed to be tactically flexible. They should be able to outshoot combat units and out fight shooting units. Right now we can't do either, and it shows.
They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.
They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.
I agree that the (most) CSM should work as Legions worked; unfortunately that is what they are going for with Primaris (Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.) to some extent.
I'd love to see some heresy specific units making a comeback for the CSM, such as the Destroyers.
They should really be set up like the Legions are now, which each model having a slightly cheaper buy-in but EVERYONE buys a Heavy or Special Weapon.
I agree that the (most) CSM should work as Legions worked; unfortunately that is what they are going for with Primaris (Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.) to some extent.
I'd love to see some heresy specific units making a comeback for the CSM, such as the Destroyers.
I actually think they should embrace the warp-corrupted stuff. Chaos Hereteks are more likely to mess around with and jury-rig stuff than the Mechanicus, so they should have a lot more weird weapons that are obviously based on old heresy designs, but then corrupted and twisted to use other types of ammo. Like I think all chaos should be using Ectoplasma instead of Plasma (with hopefully more than just a difference in name), Baleflame(rs) instead of Flame(rs), etc. Just a lot of stuff that hearkens back to heresy era technology but as the millennia have worn on have been retrofitted with dark magic, daemon energy, and the like so that they only superficially resemble the weapons they used to be.
Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.
Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.
CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.
BrotherGecko wrote: Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.
Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.
CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.
I could go with this in some regard, especially if they brought back the old Veteran Rewards from 3.5. That plus large customization would be good. IMHO chaos marines need a Primaris-like statline.
However the issue with this is always that GW wants to have "Chaos Space marines" encompass both traitors and recent renegades, those really should be two different things.
Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Voss wrote: Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd edition (it changed a good bit from the old Rogue Trader era stuff) the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles and wasn't meant to be man-portable), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)
It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.
BrotherGecko wrote: Personally if I were GW I would roll Chosen, Chaos Space Marines and Havocs all into one squad and then make it an Elite choice.
Cultists, traitor guard and mutants should be CSM troops. Every CSM should be a chosen to mark the difference between them and loyalists. And you should be able to equip the squad however you want to fit whatever role you want.
CSM should be less durable than a primaris but more fighty in both morale and CC.
I could go with this in some regard, especially if they brought back the old Veteran Rewards from 3.5. That plus large customization would be good. IMHO chaos marines need a Primaris-like statline.
However the issue with this is always that GW wants to have "Chaos Space marines" encompass both traitors and recent renegades, those really should be two different things.
My personal fix is scrapping the Chaos Marine entry and making Chosen the basic troop choice for the non-Cult Legions. Then those non-cult Legions get some other choice as a Troop (kinda like the Legion supplement from last edition), and everyone outside Cultists has Vet stats at minimum.
Wayniac wrote:The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.
What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.
Or you know, one can go to a bit site and take a look at the section with Mk III or IV bits. These sprues were so cheap and readily available each bit shop ordered dozens of Battle of X boxes and the inventories are packed with hundreds if not thousands of Heresy era special/heavy guns, perfectly appropriate for CSM. I still don't get the dumb Havoc fixation, it would be one thing if they had even a single cosmetic difference to other CSM (like Devastators in SM with their 'heavy' legs and helmets) but they are exactly identical and the plastic Havocs are at the very bottom of list of things CSM need. I'd even say below plastic chaos Thunderhawk.
Hell, GW was even so kind to put plastic legion style autocannons in Shadow Spear box, just grab these and get converting
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.
Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.
But maybe these are some sort of arcane hidden secret, surely GW wouldn't put the weapon packs front and center on their TV page and told new players how to conver--
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.
I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.
Voss wrote: Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)
It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.
I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.
Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.
Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.
I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.
My idea was that the Renegades lose access to other Chapter specific units, but gained a couple more chaos ones, specifically Possessed, Warp Talons, and Spawn. Someone pointed out that takes more routing of Chaos taint so it's back to the drawing board for me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.
I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.
If Renegades were to get handled separately, these days you'd probably look at a codex of their own that takes a page from the Genestealer book and their inclusion of Imperial Guard units.
Voss wrote: Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)
It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.
I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.
Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.
Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.
I do feel they seem clueless about how to properly handle Chaos. Or they are unwilling to make the split between Renegade vs. Traitor Legion when they are distinctly different despite superficially lookiing the same. What would be cool is making Possessed or Chosen the CSM equivalent to Primaris.
Voss wrote: Eh. The problem is the modern HH legion rules don't reflect the fluff that existed when the CSM were created. Limits on weapons date from a time when the terms chapter and legion were used interchangeably, and were more a matter of game balance than fluff.
I don't think retconning the heresy changes into 40k would be a good thing.
Not quite but close enough. When the CSM stuff was really fleshed out in 2nd the idea was that they used more common/older patterns of weapons, which is why they use combi-bolters (precursor to Storm Bolters), autocannon (easier to produce and precursor to assault cannons; IIRC in 2nd autocannons were only on terminators and vehicles), chaos plasma was the only one that could overheat (due to being an older, more dangerous model) and the like. The design goal was to make Chaos use more archaic versions of the weaponry used by the loyalists to show they came from an age 10,000 years ago (and also why Red Corsairs could take loyalist weapons/vehicles for +25% points, showing that they were a newer group)
It's just when they fleshed out Heresy they added all these weird "lost" technologies but never updated the CSM range to have access to those despite having them in the Heresy with the new fluff.
I don't know if close enough is all that correct, to be honest. It's quite accurate that all those things people ask for when they say "but Legions!" is stuff that has been expanded with a healthy dose of retcon added on top a decade later. The theme was there in 2nd ed, as you say, but that really only pertains to the type of equipment, not how that equipment and the Marines are organized.
Not that that matters a lot now. People generally understand the Horus Heresy to be what has been described since the trading card game, and since GW seems to be overhauling Chaos Marines completely anyway they might as well bring modern Chaos Marines in line with that.
Not that that solves the Renegade vs. Legionnaire problem, or the probable underlying problem that the people in the design studio are clueless. Or the way GW gives us slightly upscaled Chaos Marines now but will probably be unwilling to bring their stats in line with Primaris because they'll see Chaos Marines as equivalents of Marines and while those are still around, their spiky cousins can't just outdo them. It's great to get new Chaos models, but I think the problem that will not be overcome with this release is the general attitude in the studio.
The real problem there are sperg marine players that would go mental at having to buy a new army. It's why this long awaited CSM release, lovely though it seems to be, is outdated before it's even on sale.
Wayniac wrote:The Havocs can also take all special weapons, remember. So they are basically the specialist squad from HH; all special or all heavy.
What I suspect, as much as I don't like it (GW *really* needs to produce a weapon pack like they have the upgrades that contains like 2 of each weapon) is that the new kit will be compatible with the Forgeworld heavy/special weapon packs they sell. So if you want "havocs" you buy a CSM box and then order your 4 lascannons/autocannons/etc. from Forgeworld.
Or you know, one can go to a bit site and take a look at the section with Mk III or IV bits. These sprues were so cheap and readily available each bit shop ordered dozens of Battle of X boxes and the inventories are packed with hundreds if not thousands of Heresy era special/heavy guns, perfectly appropriate for CSM. I still don't get the dumb Havoc fixation, it would be one thing if they had even a single cosmetic difference to other CSM (like Devastators in SM with their 'heavy' legs and helmets) but they are exactly identical and the plastic Havocs are at the very bottom of list of things CSM need. I'd even say below plastic chaos Thunderhawk.
Hell, GW was even so kind to put plastic legion style autocannons in Shadow Spear box, just grab these and get converting
H.B.M.C. wrote:GW won't release a kit and say "Now buy the FW kit!". That's not the way they operate.
Yup, GW would never tell you to go grab upgrade pack if you want multiple of a gun.
But maybe these are some sort of arcane hidden secret, surely GW wouldn't put the weapon packs front and center on their TV page and told new players how to conver--
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Renegades need to be handled in the base Vanilla Marine codex, full stop.
I would agree with this. This is why we need 0-1 restrictions back, so you could make your force Renegade and lose access to some things, but get access to others from the Chaos codex.
If Renegades were to get handled separately, these days you'd probably look at a codex of their own that takes a page from the Genestealer book and their inclusion of Imperial Guard units.
Honestly?
That's kinda the best way to handle it. A legitimate book of their own, not some "If you take this <Blooogarity>, you can take w, x, y, z, banana from the Chaos Space Marines or Daemons books."
I would say that the Blackstone Fortress setup might have been a 'first look' at a potential Renegades and Heretics book down the road.
The real problem there are sperg marine players that would go mental at having to buy a new army. It's why this long awaited CSM release, lovely though it seems to be, is outdated before it's even on sale.
And this kind of atititude doesn't help matters any.
We don't know jack about what's happening outside of what looks like a pretty extensive haul of new models for Chaos and a smaller addition to the Primaris range.
I have to say that I find it massively ironic that the same person who constantly cries about GW removing rule options for stuff there are no bits in the kit seems to be unable of gluing a heavy weapon from another kit on a CSM. It is exactly because GW thinks that their customers are inept like this that the options get removed!
I get the emotional attachment to the non Primaris sections. There is a lot of truly iconic 
