So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.
I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.
The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.
This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.
What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
I think it's a decent model set, but I'm not in love with the idea of trying to fix an underperforming codex with formations (especially when they're making a new version anyway!). That was a big part of why I lost interest in 7th ed.
But I was unlikely to pick them up, as I'm too busy with Genestealer Cults, and if I'm going to do a Chaos army I'll be waiting for a Slaanesh codex.
It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.
I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.
The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.
This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.
What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?
I'm very happy with what I am seeing. I've never played a Chaos faction before, so I am really excited for this. I think Iron Warriors is going to be where I land, I really like the idea of Havoks and Oblits supporting my Chaos MARINES (won't be running any silly cultists). I'm also really excited to be able to pick up a deflier, its long been one of my most favorite models, and I think it will fit right at home!
My plan doesn't include any other deamon engines at the moment, but as the summer goes on I am looking to expand the initial army.
Funny thing is that I'm considering getting rid of my other armies and fully investing here.
I'm happy to see more options available. That's nice, especially since they aren't all 'false' or 'trap' options (unlike a majority of the Legion traits which only seem useful in a CAAC environment, where self sabotage is apparently the aim of the game).
I'm not happy to see the fact that the bog standard troops of the army cost £35 despite having little in the way of customisation or options (I can buy like 30 models from Warlord Games for the same price).
GWs Chaos designs also range from dumpster fire to 'hey that's pretty good'. The Obliterator sculpts are horrendous (I hate all that 'big lumps of flesh' aesthetic, it's incredibly lazy). Abaddon is real neat, the normal Chaos Space Marines are cool bar some really bad head sculpts. Thankfully that's easy to fix.
The Cultists loss of legion traits is a pain. I'll miss my -1 to hit Cultists.
Also, considering it'll now be a minimum of £100+ to build a 'standard' force of a Chaos Lord and ten Chaos Space Marines, I am even less inclined to directly support Games Workshop.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.
This but unironically.
Also anyone who uses the ''''''counter-argument'''''' of' '''whining''' to dismiss criticism should be ready to have any points they make summarily dismissed in turn.
Brutus_Apex wrote: It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.
I think this kind of sums up my feelings too. Personally I like Primaris marines. I think they are the size and have the rules that marines always should have had. My opinion is that they should have just called them “the new marine range” and let people replace their models as they saw fit.
Now they’ve got Primaris and normal marines they’ve tied themselves in knots. They probably aren’t going to release any non-primaris loyalists but are doing so with chaos. So now chaos marines are basically just weak marines, and that’s not cool at all.
As you say, they should have just given all marines 2 wounds and attacks, and made them all Primaris scale from now on.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris. Oldmarines/Adeptus Secundus though have no future either in the fluff, rules, or tabletop. The writing on that wall was written with the Primaris reveal and the story continues to be written with Shadowspear.
Has the difference in size been confirmed? I thought I remembered reading that recent chaos releases were bigger overall? I think the new chaos marines regardless of size are well done. People rag on the now previous kit but that was *very* well received in its day (and I even kept the white dwarf magazines because I thought the new art and models were so cool) similar to the also currently derided Cadian line. Time passes, scale creeps, and details change and increase and people think they didn't age well.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris. Oldmarines/Adeptus Secundus though have no future either in the fluff, rules, or tabletop. The writing on that wall was written with the Primaris reveal and the story continues to be written with Shadowspear.
Has the difference in size been confirmed? I thought I remembered reading that recent chaos releases were bigger overall? I think the new chaos marines regardless of size are well done. People rag on the now previous kit but that was *very* well received in its day (and I even kept the white dwarf magazines because I thought the new art and models were so cool) similar to the also currently derided Cadian line. Time passes, scale creeps, and details change and increase and people think they didn't age well.
They are about the same size as the Chosen we got in the other box.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.
I am a chaos player and I am very happy, please stop assuming a few of the loud section represent the entire audience.
I nearly went heretic when I saw Abaddon so everything else just swayed me even more. Not entirely fussed about the overall power of the rules I like the models more than the Space marine range which I currently have (except my Primaris) so May end up selling them to buy some BL in the future. Just waiting till Xmas again to finish my Orks first then we’ll see.
As a quasi-CSM player (Renegades) I'm fine with everything.
I won't be buying any new models (will kit-bash a few new characters, and order a couple 3rd party miniguns) but I get some new rules, strategems, and as a Renegade player I actually get some stratagems, relics, and warlord traits. I already enjoyed playing my CSM (admittedly in a casual environment). So this is nothing but a bonus for me. I just won't be sending GW any dollarydoos for models because I don't use CSM models.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.
I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.
The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.
This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.
What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?
Im very happy with the new rules, talks within the chaos tactica are going towards CSM as being suprisingly decent, bolter rules + new minigun makes them pretty decent for small groups for objective taking over cultists as they also put out decent number of shots down range. There is also talk about pulling a 30k legion trick with the 20 man stack where you can just recycle the unit like old cultists. I think the main reason you dont see many normal marine squads is often people just prefer to take the cult marines over them then fill in with cultists, cultists losing their edge means people will see more value in them. This new codex though is very very combo heavy, individual units dont look that scary but with amount of combo psychic/commands/prayers/legion traits most units can get alot of work done, even the basic CSM.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.
I am a chaos player and I am very happy, please stop assuming a few of the loud section represent the entire audience.
Please take a look at the following link as you may find the information it contains quite informative.
I'm extremely disappointed that they didn't take the revamp of the CSM codex to redo the legion rules or to add them to other types of units. 5 point cultists with no VOTLW and no legion traits is also a sick joke from whoever at GW still thinks much better guard infantry should be 4 points each. I'm also bummed the Lord Discordant is not 4++. 115 per Obliterator is also just way too much even with the improvements.
However, other than that, I am very happily surprised with the release. The renegade rules and new detachments are overall much better than I expected. Still some duds, but not too many. I am also very happy with some of the improvements (Abbadon, Havocs, Terminators). What I think is best about the changes is the incredible flexibility you get between the legions, specialist detachments, field commander warlord traits, council of traitors warlord traits, psychic powers, and marks of Chaos. There is a dizzying array of combos with taking a detachment, picking the legion, making it a specialist detachment, taking an extra specialist warlord trait, and then picking the marks for the units in the detachment. Really really cool.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: I nearly went heretic when I saw Abaddon so everything else just swayed me even more. Not entirely fussed about the overall power of the rules I like the models more than the Space marine range which I currently have (except my Primaris) so May end up selling them to buy some BL in the future. Just waiting till Xmas again to finish my Orks first then we’ll see.
Same here. I don't realistically see myself starting any 40k army but the Abaddon model made me at least reconsider restarting my old Black Legion army from 3rd edition the last time there were this many new chaos undivided releases (when that was still a category of thing).
Brutus_Apex wrote: It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.
I have to agree. The fact that Primaris exist saps does curb my enthusiasm for this new Chaos release. Honestly, I just prefer them because there larger models and better proportioned. I'll buy at least a box of CSM and Havocs. Then just bits order the parts I need to continue converting more chaos-ified Primaris. I've never bought any of the daemon-engines, and even though the new ones are much better don't really fit my idea of what the Emperor's Children would field. The new Obliterators and Greater Possessed are simply ugly, like the Helbrute.
Also would have killed them to dedicate two pages to giving the Emperor's Children and World Eaters some love in Vigilus Ablaze?
I'm quite happy with where GW is going with CSMimo. They're doing everything they can to distinguish them with loyalist space marine : loyalist have the primaris range, while the CSM are going more and more towards deamonkin and diverse weapons that have no equivalent in the space marine range. It's not a problem that CSM have weaker stats than primars, as long as they have other tools to compensate.
blood reaper wrote: I'm happy to see more options available. That's nice, especially since they aren't all 'false' or 'trap' options (unlike a majority of the Legion traits which only seem useful in a CAAC environment, where self sabotage is apparently the aim of the game).
I'm not happy to see the fact that the bog standard troops of the army cost £35 despite having little in the way of customisation or options (I can buy like 30 models from Warlord Games for the same price).
But the standard Warlord Games model is half the size of a Warlord model. Plus Warlord is incentivized to charge less because a) there is a lot of competition in the WWII miniature marketplace and b) they are a smaller company and one of the ways you attract newcomers is to charge less than your competitors.
Mandragola wrote: So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
As a non-chaos player I find I’ve got kind of mixed feelings. It’s great to see the new CSM models but the rules that come with them don’t really seem to hold up in comparison. My complaint with CSM armies was always that they don’t include any CSMs, and unfortunately I don’t see much reason why that would change with this release.
I do like the havocs and chaos marines. They’re now up to the standard of the great raptor minis and you’ll be able to build a great looking army. I’m just not convinced it’ll be a particularly effective army.
The new miniguns do look like a bit of an exception. I can see a case for 3 5-man squads of red corsairs, each with a minigun, plus <whoever> as your HQs. You’ll get reasonable numbers of troop bodies, dakka and CPs for a pretty low cost.
This battalion might make sense as back up for something like a plaguebearer list. With the beta bolter rule you get 16 shots at 24” from an 85 point unit. That seems decent, but perhaps a little static and boring.
What do people think that lists will look like after the changes?
From a model standpoint, I'm thrilled. The Chaos Marines are the upgrade that I've been waiting a long time for, and they nailed the style. I can't wait to get those in my hands and start building them and divvying out special weapons. The havocs and terminators were a much-needed upgrade, Abaddon is gorgeous (even though I won't be getting him) the Noctilith Crown is pretty cool as a centerpiece model, and the new characters and daemon engines are totally ace.
Looking at Chaos Armies, if you ONLY use models that have been released in the past couple of editions, you can make an army that looks really thematic and amazing. I'm planning my army around *not* using Rhinos (and vehicles based on it) to really push for that daemon engine feel.
Yes, Bikes, Cultists, Lords, and Sorcerers still need an update to be brought more in line, but older kits like Possessed and Defilers still hold up well in the new style, I think.
Rules wise, I'm... conflicted. I'm happy that we got a lot of specialist detachments, new traits, new warlord traits, new relics, new stratagems, and the Dark Apostle upgrade is pretty nice too. I think there is a lot of potential here that will take some time to figure out. I don't think Chaos is going to be rising to the top of any metas, and I think much of what works currently for chaos (cultist spam, oblit spam, etc) will continue to work. I don't think that anything except maybe 2 of the new characters (Dark Apostle and Master of Possessions) adds much that competitive players will want to play with, so lists will be much the same, though a little deadlier depending on what specialist detachment they run with. Oh, and you might see minimum detachments of Red Corsairs mucking about too, for the CP.
I do wish that more work was put into making the daemon engines and regular chaos marines a little scarier (even if it meant becoming more expensive) and I do wish they'd gone back and revamped some of the old legion traits. Word Bearers and Night Lords especially need some love.
That said, I'm not a competitive player. I build and paint more than I play and I'll have plenty of fun playing casual games when I get around to them. I'll build my thematic army and it'll look way cooler than any of the competitive spam armies when I put it on the table. To that end, I'm thrilled with this release. I'm just waiting on the Venomcrawler and Obliterators to get a release outside of Shadowspear, which may be a few months away judging by how long it took them to make separate kits for the Plague Marines and Bloat Drone from Dark Imperium.
I'm also convinced that eventually, whether it's this year or next, we will see Emperor's Children and World Eaters get their own releases, and so I will theme my Chaos Marines around that, planning on them to be a great ally to the Emperor's Children when that comes out. I'm planning on doing CSM/EC/Chaos Daemons of Slaanesh all in one beautiful force, and I can't wait to make it all happen. With much of my hobby, it's just been a waiting game for GW to release the thing that I want.
Mandragola wrote:So how do people feel about this release overall? Are chaos players happy, and are non-chaos players tempted?
I am very happy with the release. I have been patiently waiting for updated an Abbadon, CSM and Havocs for years. I am pleased with appearance of the new Abbadon, CSM and Havocs and even like some of the other portions the expand the range. From what I have seen, I would have preferred Terminators to have a little more going on in the models, but I still plan on getting 5 more for a total of 15 terminators plus Sorcerer in Termie armor in which I probably will make use of the Bringers of Despair rules sometimes.
Speaking of rules, I don't play full 40k all that often (but plan on trying to change that after I get everything painted up), so the rules don't bother me too much either way.
Brutus_Apex wrote:It’s funny, I’ve been waiting for over a decade for this release to happen, and as much as I enjoy a lot of what is being released, the fact that Primaris is a thing has put a huge sense of doubt in my head about the whole thing.
I just feel like Primaris has ruined all space marines completely for me, I don’t know if this release will be made obsolete in a few years just like the loyalists. They don’t have the same proportions as Primaris, so they look out of place. They don’t have Primaris stats so they are functionally neutered by design.
If GW gave all marines 2 wounds and 2 attacks base, I would be on board. Until that happens, I see no future in marines.
I completely understand what you mean. I think Primaris have really fouled up several pillars of Warhammer 40k. There background fluff is ham fisted and awful. The rules squeeze in another class of infantry stats, or rather their existence squeezes in non-Primaris marine stats that don't really have a place in 8th edition that feels right points cost and what those points get you. Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines. Don't get me started on the preplexing weapon load outs Primaris have and introduced (I have a hard time making heads or tails of these squads battlefield purpose as someone that sees squads/fireteams through a WWII to 1990s composition lens).
But dag nabbit, if those models ain't beautiful. I mean just with the Shadowspear models I have, I want Primaris to be cheap enough for me to build a Raptors chapter army.
Virules wrote:I'm extremely disappointed that they didn't take the revamp of the CSM codex to redo the legion rules or to add them to other types of units. 5 point cultists with no VOTLW and no legion traits is also a sick joke from whoever at GW still thinks much better guard infantry should be 4 points each. I'm also bummed the Lord Discordant is not 4++. 115 per Obliterator is also just way too much even with the improvements.
I am going to hold off judgement until the new book has been out a while. That said, it definitely feels like more of a second printing with the current-ish information and not really worth the trouble on GW's part since it will be about 6 months before it starts to act like the current codex. If I was going to bother with a new codex for a faction that saw a pretty significant model release and I was like GW, I would have definitely erred on the side of making things a little OP (if I couldn't find the balence I liked) for units and definitely make changes to the legion traits that were universally panned. I do kinda think that cultists will be going back down to 4 points a model with the changes since that is what cultists cost in Kill Team and that feels about right for them. If they don't go down in cost, I would expect guardsmen to cost the same next Chapter Approved.
In any event, I didn't really feel the 8th edition CSM codex was a necessary purchase since I don't really reference it much. I kinda only bought it along with the BRB as talismans for any player that is concerned of double checking rules in official sources. I rarely encounter that, so I don't see a need to spend more money on rules yet.
I’ really excited to get my CSM back on the field. The new kits look like how I’ve always imagined Chaos Marines would look. I’ll be doing a Black Legion Force with Abaddon leading it for sure.
I’m tempted to use my old CSM to make a Red Corsairs detachment just so I’m not starved for CPs.
I am going to hold off judgement until the new book has been out a while. That said, it definitely feels like more of a second printing with the current-ish information and not really worth the trouble on GW's part since it will be about 6 months before it starts to act like the current codex.
I mean, their own description says this:
If you already own a copy of Chaos Space Marines and Vigilus Ablaze, you'll find this book a handy compilation. However, you do not need a copy of the original codex or Vigilus Ablaze to use this product!
And the real advantage here is you don't have to buy three books just to start being able to play the army. At least till December it has current points values, and barring another major release this year for chaos undivided in 40k it'll be current for quite a while.
40 bucks in books is a lot more tempting than 130 for the old codex, vigilus 2 and CA.
I wouldn't be overly surprised to see books like this along side the story supplements for major releases and I'm kinda looking forward to the reaction when it happens for space marines. It keeps the barrier to entry low, tempts old players to get the condensed version of the rules, and drags the people who complain about having to buy a lore book back into the market.
It's not world shattering, but it's a solid enough idea. Let alone being accompanied by releases I'm into enough that it's threatening my painting queue.
warboss wrote: Stats can and will change. All it takes is the inevitable new edition so GW can resell the same books to "fix" that (at least for Chaos). Warp mutations over 10,000 years is pretty much the catch-all reason they can use for the buff to equal them out statwise to Primaris.
Not sure why they'd want to do that. I thought the whole point of CSM was to be like SM but worse? Why screw that up by giving them primaris stats? If anything, squatting the oldmarines will allow Chaos to inherit all the stuff the loyalists used to lord over them but now don't want anymore (like thunderhammers).
Chaos Marines can stay as they are. They just need to be cheaper in points because their profile is really bad in the context of this edition (even more so than previous editions). I imagine the reticence to do that is that GW would feel compelled to make basic loyal marines cheaper, which is something they seem loathe to do, as it would make their Primaris line less appealing.
I'm actually really feeling the new releases. Do I wish they had more? Yeah. Could they have better rules? Sure. But getting some multipose models is great.
Now let's hope that we get some more varied releases in the coming months, for Chaos and Xenos alike.
In the context of my own army as a black legion player... I am pretty happy with this release.
Host Raptorial has made warp talons truly viable for the first time, raptors are overall decent and a couple of those black legion unique strategems are brutal on the table for large units (merciless killers especially).
Base Marines seem fine now, they won't top ITC tables but in 90% of metas they will do just fine! Especially using Red Corsair trait for replacing units strat and CP generation.
Possessed for the first time ever are truly fieldable in a big way. Fantastic!!! If done correctly it would give almost any opponent fits in attempting to remove them and they have alot of output potential
I think this update overall really brought CSM up a big notch.
Main thing I'm not excited about is chaos Marines being $60 for 10. Can I even combo parts from them with normal iron armor bits for my iron warriors? Will the leg/torso/arm amalgamations let me do parts swaps like that?
ph34r wrote: Main thing I'm not excited about is chaos Marines being $60 for 10. Can I even combo parts from them with normal iron armor bits for my iron warriors? Will the leg/torso/arm amalgamations let me do parts swaps like that?
By looking at the sprues for both the regular CSM and the Havocs, you should be able to glue whatever arms you want to the bodies. And it takes very little to cut down a peg to make any backpack lay flush against the panel and glue it. And other than beakies or something similar, you should be able to use just about any head you want on them.
having just put together my shadowspear CSMs I gotta say asteticly this is a great design. I think the priamris clean almost taticool look and the chaos contrast nicely with a real baroque look.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.
They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.
Superb new models. The new CSM design knocks it out the park.
Great new rules. People are under-estimating the impact of all these little changes imo. Alpha Legion CSM in 5-man squads with a rotor cannon, for example, put out 10 Bolter shots and 8 heavy Bolter shots, and are hard to shift. Pretty nice troop. Then you have the many new detachments - lots of fun to be had there, love the way they're not locked to legions, like the loyalist ones are. Finally, Havocs. I think they might be the best anti-horde unit in the game now. I'm a happy bunny.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.
They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.
They're taller like the Thousand Sons and Death Guard.
Thank you for the swift response!
A quick photo of previous plastic CSM, DV Chosen, Shadowspear CSM and Shadowspear Interceptor
blood reaper wrote: Also, considering it'll now be a minimum of £100+ to build a 'standard' force of a Chaos Lord and ten Chaos Space Marines, I am even less inclined to directly support Games Workshop.
So 35 £ (new Chaos Space Marines) plus 8-15 £ (various Chaos Lords, from Night Lords one to termie/sorcerer kit) is somehow 100 £ now?
And that is without considering the 25% discount from local shops in the UK, making the 'point' even sillier...
Sersi wrote: I have to agree. The fact that Primaris exist saps does curb my enthusiasm for this new Chaos release. Honestly, I just prefer them because there larger models and better proportioned. I'll buy at least a box of CSM and Havocs. Then just bits order the parts I need to continue converting more chaos-ified Primaris. I've never bought any of the daemon-engines, and even though the new ones are much better don't really fit my idea of what the Emperor's Children would field. The new Obliterators and Greater Possessed are simply ugly, like the Helbrute.
I find this funny because this CSM release alone got 100x more love than every single primaris release combined. See idiocy that is primaris "melee" squads that can't, actually, take any real melee weapons (ditto for vanguard captain, literally first such SMHQ in their whole history), or such uninspired rules as vanguard lieutenant hitting twice because he has two knives (which strangely enough aren't combat knives unlike the whole rest of the range and as such both are worse weapon than single knife every other primaris has). Can you imagine howls of CSM players if squad sarges were actually better in melee than chaos champions and lords?
That said, I really like looks of vanguard and will hold any criticism until I see full rules, but I won't be holding my breath. Especially after that slap to the face of all primaris and DW players that was GW's decision to forget the idiotic 'no bit no rules' policy for once to give CSM players full access to thunder hammers, bit found nowhere in their whole range. Because they surely won't be bought from third party knockoff peddlers, while tons of official, all-GW marine power weapons get to languish in bit boxes, banned despite making negative impact on shiny new range GW wants to sell...
Grot 6 wrote: I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.
I can speak to him: unless my tired memory is playing tricks on me, he's exactly the same cost (as of his release) as a Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and a SM thunder hammer. And his rules effectively are the same as the generic one with the slightly unusual wargear choice, except that he also provides his lord buff to the BSF keyword models and requires they deploy near him. He's the most generic special character I've noticed in a while. If they add the BSF units with the new cultist "not a space marine" rule, he'd be essentially identical to a generic character with specific gear.
Yeas, You are all over what I was looking for information on, That's for the heads up!
I think one of the key things I love the most about this release is that it makes my CSM army a true CSM army now. I got little reason to play cultist unless for bubble wrap. I got tons of reasons to actually bring CSM now. +3CP ? yes! tide of traitors on CSM? yes!! And havocs are basically heavy support CSM too. My army looks like an actual CSM army now and I love it.
And I don't know how competitive it will be. But there are lots of themes for my army I really want to try now. Daemon Engines theme, raptorial host theme, even tons of terminator armor in a bringers of despair theme because chain axe combi bolter terminators are now a thing.
It just adds a ton of flavour. And that I feel is far better than some borg standard like army list that everyone will feel compelled to bring because everything else is just so bad.The 40 cultist thing was so jarring and unfluffy. I mean, I was a CSM army, but somehow, we were supposed to rely on that 40 man cultist blob... Cultists are mere fodder!!! They should have never become our key lynchpin unit.
This release brings back the CSM to our CSM armies in a big way and I love it because of that.
Irbis wrote: that slap to the face of all primaris and DW players that was GW's decision to forget the idiotic 'no bit no rules' policy for once to give CSM players full access to thunder hammers, bit found nowhere in their whole range
Yeah, it's pretty dumb. I think that the easiest way to allow Mallex in would have been to give lords the option. While I think that it's good that they have access (and there are a few other old bits of gear that fit). it's pretty absurd how much they opened that up when they've been rigid for a lot of other releases.
I agree that Primaris and DW have suffered a fair bit for not having some really simple kitbash options available. GW's been so irritatingly cautious when the issue had to with available parts, not parts specific to a given kit... Let's hope this marks a design shift rather than a hypocritical anomaly.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think one of the key things I love the most about this release is that it makes my CSM army a true CSM army now. I got little reason to play cultist unless for bubble wrap. I got tons of reasons to actually bring CSM now. +3CP ? yes! tide of traitors on CSM? yes!! And havocs are basically heavy support CSM too. My army looks like an actual CSM army now and I love it.
And I don't know how competitive it will be. But there are lots of themes for my army I really want to try now. Daemon Engines theme, raptorial host theme, even tons of terminator armor in a bringers of despair theme because chain axe combi bolter terminators are now a thing.
It just adds a ton of flavour. And that I feel is far better than some borg standard like army list that everyone will feel compelled to bring because everything else is just so bad.The 40 cultist thing was so jarring and unfluffy. I mean, I was a CSM army, but somehow, we were supposed to rely on that 40 man cultist blob... Cultists are mere fodder!!! They should have never become our key lynchpin unit.
This release brings back the CSM to our CSM armies in a big way and I love it because of that.
Know your own fluff, AL, IW and WB rely on massively differing quality of cultists far more then on their marines.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned, and seeing as we're on the topic of kitbashing, how do the new CSM scale with the old ones? Are they taller and a better fit with the Primaris line or are they still squat? Asking as I'd like to make some Noise Marines with the upgrade kit which is apparently interchangeable with the new models.
Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
"Heretic Astartes" excuse you!
Chaos Space Marines is correct. Heretic Astartes refers to the wider faction that includes Death Guard and Thousand Sons; any army that exclusively features the other legions and Renegade Chapters is a Chaos Space Marines army.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.
For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.
And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.
Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......
In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.
And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.
Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.
For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.
And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.
Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......
In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.
And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.
Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.
I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
What case do you have though, i listed up about a 3rd of all traitor marine legions, so no your csm first policy is not as case and done as you think. ( I won't even start to mention the traitor guard regiments used and employed by the bl f.e. Which seems to draw them in like moths.) Traitor guard or renegades and heretics, or Hereticus millitarium as gw wants to call them, are a whole other can, sadly underrepresented and underperforming.
And whilest marines should and got a buff, well some did, atleast red Corsairs did, due to recycling marines. Always recycle lads! On the overall i still doubt csm will be seeing play as tax troop for other subfactions, it is in no means good to further nerf cultists, because your centerpiece you know is now relegated to be irrelevant tax troops.
Meanwhile those armies that were built around cultists as established by lore allready that do exist now can go take a hike off a cliff even morso. Hip hip hurray......
In short, beyond red Corsairs i don't see csm as a competitive viable choice to field, and in competitive we mostlikely will see a hike of fielded csm by 15 per csm army maybee, until people realise that nurglings still do better f.e., based on 5 man squads for battalions in order to fuel other csm armies and traitor legions. Basically we now have a battery the likes off IG provided.
And here comes my next point Cp actually is less of a problem for csm as a faction overall then their overreliance on very specific Setup of support charachters and specific options marks and stratagems. If cp mainly would've been a problem people would've just brought the 5 CP R& H battery to tournaments for 170 pts.
Summa sumarum, some subfactions atleast now can find a way to field csm, and it ain't the ones that should, see my sig, overall we get another nerf to cultists, to the point where it literally is no difference between R&H troops and csm cultists to field which goes to exemplify how bad the cultists have become now.
I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.
Well, an actual R&H book is our fetish buffet. The Hereticus Militarium thing gives a modicum of hope, but nothing I'm counting on.
I am just curious. Would your view change if they subsequently came out with a proper traitor guard codex? And why would it stay the same. Because obviously if they did come out with a proper traitor guard index, it would have loads of stuff, traits, warlord traits, strategems, relics and all for a proper traitor guard army.
No, my problem is twofold,
A: CSM are still not good enough to build a core.
Basically if you need to give out bonus cp up to guardstandards and a tide stratagems for people to maybee start considering running more then msu marines then the unit is just bad.
B: you don't fix the bad unit by making the decent Alternative worse to force people into taking the bad unit that now has a subfaction that might makes them competitively speaking playable.
As for traitor guard, no traitor guard do not fix the issue i have with the bad cultists atm.
My solution would've been to either lower the price back down to 4 ppm apply Mere Mortals and split AL agents out of the Cultists or would've left it at the Status quo.
Also R&H rules are written by the gw rules Team and if they would've wanted they could've easily fixed the issues they have and make them playable. They didn't, ergo i don't tust them to write the rules propperly enough for the army.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Our army is called "chaos space marines" ... I rest my case.
There will be a book (hopefully) about traitor guard and then traitor guard can be front and centre of that book. But me? I am glad the emphasis is CSM front and centre this time round for our codex 2.0. Because when I signed up to play this army many years ago, I wanted to play chaos space marines, not mass cultists...
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
The basic CSM squads have a fundamental problem with how they relate to Loyalist SM. You need 14-15 CSM to meet the statistical performance of tactical SM over the course of the game, but there is no way we'd ever get 11pt CSM. That price inefficiency makes Cultists that much more important. Now I'm sure the new rules help but I haven't run the numbers on the new rules, but I find it hard to imagine a drastic enough improvement. I think Red Corsairs giving CP, stands to be the best improvement of basic CSM, but that's a rather round about way to justify basic CSM. I hope the way it all plays out on the table top surprises me.
Don't be so ready to downplay CSM just because they are merely chaos marines. Having a CSM squad with a combi bolter (champion) and 1 guy using a reaper chain cannon kind changes things.
Now, at 24 inches and standing still, the squad is throwing out 8 shots of Str 5, AP -1 and 10 shots of Str 4. Such a squad costs 86 points. It doesn't seem that bad really, for a basic CSM squad.
On average each Marine is shooting 2 shots Str 4 and 1.6 shots of Str 5, AP -1. Not bad for mere marines huh. And they need to get though 4 marines to reach your reaper chain cannon.
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
Except in the novels and fluff CSM are typically a warband of veterans supported by masses of slaves and cultists as fodder... so its something of a deviation from the fluff to so drastically refocus the codex to basic CSM over Cultists. What is relatively rare in for CSM are the bog standard CSM that are less experienced than loyalist tactical marines,
Traitor Guard are typically separate a distinct forces working in conjunction and coordination with CSM. The Cultists however are more immediately subservient; they represent the random mortal masses that live and crew their ships and that the CSM are perfectly willing to drive ahead of them as meat shields. Some cultists are simply more capable than others.
I think most people understand Cultists probably shouldn't have had legion rules affecting them; this was a surprise when we first got the original rules. Losing it isn't that much of a surprise, even if inconvenient. Its that in combination with a point increase where it becomes an overreaction. It undermines one the only ways to maintain the viability of a more elite chaos army; because of how foundational cultists are a cost increase on cultists amounts to a cost increase for everything. Cultists are a bottom of the barrel unit, brought mostly for the bodies; they shouldn't be pricier than IG.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
I hated that part of the movie so much. Marine vs Marine and somehow the bad guys die in droves....just use cultists if you want cheap movie canon-fodder.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or I can use 6 Chosen with 5 Combi-Bolters and a Reaper for better effect.
As long as you're OK with your MEQ bodies being 17ppm instead of 13ppm with identical defenses and not having obsec.
Having obsec and providing CPs makes Troop slot units slightly less combat-effective than similar non-troop units at the same role.
If vets provided the same CPs that infantry provided it would be a complete no-brainer to run just vets, even just as lasgun mooks - they deal a significant amount more damage with their BS3 and only cost 1 point more.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Or I can use 6 Chosen with 5 Combi-Bolters and a Reaper for better effect.
As long as you're OK with your MEQ bodies being 17ppm instead of 13ppm with identical defenses and not having obsec.
Having obsec and providing CPs makes Troop slot units slightly less combat-effective than similar non-troop units at the same role.
If vets provided the same CPs that infantry provided it would be a complete no-brainer to run just vets, even just as lasgun mooks - they deal a significant amount more damage with their BS3 and only cost 1 point more.
More at 11.
Chosen are 14 points. So that's 16 points when you add the Combi-Bolter. Otherwise known as 3 points for double the firepower and double the attacks (technically triple because free chainswords).
For CP, you can just use Renegades and Heretics for more durable bodies. Red Corsairs detachments already grant +1CP anyway, so it isn't like this is a grand bonus like you're making it out to be. 2 more CP for a statistically worse unit when I have other means to produce it? Nah.
You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either. And berserkers are obviously so good when they can advance and charge.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
VotLW, is basically the reason alone why CSM armies still are somewhat playable, so even the discussion about using Red Corsair CSM with a tide equivalent is for naught beyond the 15 little raidy CSM.
Objectives may become increasingly important, issue is if you can table your opponent beofre the objectives matter well yeah , i guess you can see where i am going with that.
Eldenfirefly wrote: You know, red corsairs are a CSM army. The only thing they lose is VOTLW, which only applies to infantry and bikers. So, every other specialist detachment or unit that you want to use that doesn't involve infantry and bikers can be used perfectly fine in a red corsairs detachment...
So, that means Daemon Princes, all calvary heroes, all vehicles (ALL), all daemon engines, all super heavies, totally can be placed into a red corsairs batallion, and you won't miss VOTLW for those.
Even certain units like berserkers, which typically delete everything they touch usually, don't usually need it either.
And how can you say Ob sec isn't important. Objectives are increasingly important, with the way GW is designing missions.
VotLW, is basically the reason alone why CSM armies still are somewhat playable, so even the discussion about using Red Corsair CSM with a tide equivalent is for naught beyond the 15 little raidy CSM.
Objectives may become increasingly important, issue is if you can table your opponent beofre the objectives matter well yeah , i guess you can see where i am going with that.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
Well, the tactics thread has been alive with tons of new combos, how old/new units can be used, etc etc. And I am excited about all the new potential new stuff that CSM gets. So, shrugs. I will just stick to enjoying all the new stuff coming out.
Feel free to be unhappy instead if that works for you.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions: No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army. . There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions:
No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army.
.
There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
I already stated they would need to be used like Conscripts and current Cultists. They're not good, but the best of a bad situation.
Exactly. Dead units don't hold objectives, so winning the shootout is more important. That's why, for durability, I'm leaning towards working with Renegades and Heretics. They still offer a cheap Battalion (170 for the unloyal 32 + the points for the Commisar equivalent, which is probably less than 40), and takes up plenty of space to ward off deep strike. They're as bad as Cultists and Conscripts basically, but I think they will work fine.
As someone that actually plays R&H somewhat regularly in Mono or Soup fashion. Several Missconceptions:
No, you are delusional if you think the Illoyal 32 are durable or more durable then Same pts fielded with any other army.
.
There is this little rule, called Random Leadership, in a propper book it would've been called "Uncertain Worth" but again GW don't write propper books for FW armies so have fun, regardless It once was D6+4 for morale, with equal SV to a guardsmen.
Now it is D6+2 for morale with SV6 . Of course you could gamble, pick mutants over militia instead, to get a sweet 1/6 chance for T4. Did i mention that you get an equal high chance at getting D6 losses before the battle starts?
We haven't talked about BS/WS yet, let's say you don't want to gamble and pick Militia, that is still (except for the championof the militia) a 4ppm model with SV6 WS/BS 5+. and a leadership that is on average 5.5.
The Commisar Equivalent, called an enforcer is 30 pts, it kills D3 Models within 3" of a squad if the squad should make a Morale tests, however, he does also do that if you technically would autopass morale due to not taking enough losses, or "In it for the money". So much for him.
I already stated they would need to be used like Conscripts and current Cultists. They're not good, but the best of a bad situation.
Then go for the 50 man mutant blob with enforcer back up. just "230" pts for one such combo.
maybee even pick a Psyker coven for a nigh guaranteed denial and unnatural vigour and a commander, that would be 815 pts.
No, my problem is twofold,
A: CSM are still not good enough to build a core.
Basically if you need to give out bonus cp up to guardstandards and a tide stratagems for people to maybee start considering running more then msu marines then the unit is just bad.
B: you don't fix the bad unit by making the decent Alternative worse to force people into taking the bad unit that now has a subfaction that might makes them competitively speaking playable.
As for traitor guard, no traitor guard do not fix the issue i have with the bad cultists atm.
My solution would've been to either lower the price back down to 4 ppm apply Mere Mortals and split AL agents out of the Cultists or would've left it at the Status quo.
Also R&H rules are written by the gw rules Team and if they would've wanted they could've easily fixed the issues they have and make them playable. They didn't, ergo i don't tust them to write the rules propperly enough for the army.
100% in agreement. CSM are still unfortunate in this environment, and wrecking cultists is a terrible way to fix them. (I suspect it's because they're locked in to statting Marines the same across SM, CSM, and various specialists on the Marine side. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, that they realize but can't fix that issue, so are just working at internal corrections in CSM, and not that they don't see the power armor problem in the 8th competitive meta.)
I think that Mere Mortals and 4ppm is a definite step in the right direction, and there's precedent in factions for unevenly tagging units, like Iron Hands giving vehicles a buff.
And yeah, the R&H rules are just awful. It's the only reason I'm glad FW didn't try to make chapter tactics for theirs. They've attempted to balance some vehicles, but their army and character support has been just weak.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Idk. I'm starting to think the normal 10-man CSM squad with 2 plasma guns might not be the worst thing in the world. Or give them two lascannons and park them next to a noctilith shrine and take alpha legion. They get the extra survivability that they need and lascannons pack a punch. With the new beta bolter rules, they can reach out and touch infantry too, and VotLW can help at least one squad wound.
The main issue for me was the lack of heavy weapon bits available to chaos marines, but now we will have those in the havoc box. I think its worth trying. Those squads will have a lot more offensive punch than any cultist squad at range at least.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!
It is certainly an option, problem is though, chosen ain't that great either.
Bharring wrote: Can't the same be said of Loyalists? When they're the protagonists, they're all highly qualified and capable. When they're not, they die like flies.
Which happens for (almost) every faction. With a few key exceptions, the same force is either a powerful force to be reckoned with, or some comically outmatched shlub. Depending on the whim of the writer.
Have we had any price leaks on the Havocs or Terminators yet? I am guessing £25 for the Havocs and £30 for the Terminators but in light of recent price increases I am not sure.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote:Have we had any price leaks on the Havocs or Terminators yet? I am guessing £25 for the Havocs and £30 for the Terminators but in light of recent price increases I am not sure.
DaveC wrote:Price list is out
Terminators $60, £35, €45
Havocs $55, £32.50
USD and GBP prices are confirmed Havocs are either €40 or €42 depending on what rate they pick.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.
For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.
I don't think it would have made any sense to make these new Chaos Marines Primaris-sized, lots of people say things like "Primaris are just true-scale Marines!" but that idea has some pretty strange implications. Space Marine kits aren't quite accurate to their proper scale in relation to other models so yes, Primaris marines are closer to the scale they should have, but the problem with saying they're meant to be true-scale Marines is that they're just meant to be bigger than standard Space Marines. They have a lore reason for being a larger model as they have increased height compared to normal Space Marines. So at the moment Primaris Models are the right scale to represent Primaris marines, if Chaos Marines had been suddenly bought up to that scale then you'd just move the problem around and have wrongly scaled Primaris marines and recent models like in Blackstone Fortress still wrong.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Even the scale difference between Primaris and the new Chaos Space Marines sort takes a little wind out of the sails of regular marines.
For me it's reverse. Chaos marines still being proper scale for space marines rather than head taller primaris makes sense. Would be silly to start to retcon why marines from age of heresy suddenly grew up full head taller.
Likewise. If anything, it gives me a glimmer of hope that GW isn't totally done with Regular Space Marines. Even if all we get are more series of Space Marine Heroes, that is better than nothing (and great for my Kill Team!). If they had made the new CSM stuff Primaris-sized without adjusting their stats, I would have been very disappointed.
I don't think it would have made any sense to make these new Chaos Marines Primaris-sized, lots of people say things like "Primaris are just true-scale Marines!" but that idea has some pretty strange implications. Space Marine kits aren't quite accurate to their proper scale in relation to other models so yes, Primaris marines are closer to the scale they should have, but the problem with saying they're meant to be true-scale Marines is that they're just meant to be bigger than standard Space Marines. They have a lore reason for being a larger model as they have increased height compared to normal Space Marines. So at the moment Primaris Models are the right scale to represent Primaris marines, if Chaos Marines had been suddenly bought up to that scale then you'd just move the problem around and have wrongly scaled Primaris marines and recent models like in Blackstone Fortress still wrong.
I think what people mean when they say that, is that GW wanted to make updated marine models in a more correct scale but needed (or wanted) to do it in a way that wouldn't enrage all Marine players. Basically they felt there was a market demand for Marines of that size and just wrote some fluff to explain their existence. Then the conspiratorial addendum is that eventually they'll just drop the other Marines and Primariss-sized marines will just be marines.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....
Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.
Haven't seen any rule that says you must have x or y mark to take x or y renegade trait. Could be in some sidebar we haven't seen yet, or there might not be one at all.
Remember, marks don't really give you anything. It's the icons and other things around them that do.
drbored wrote: Haven't seen any rule that says you must have x or y mark to take x or y renegade trait. Could be in some sidebar we haven't seen yet, or there might not be one at all.
Remember, marks don't really give you anything. It's the icons and other things around them that do.
true but the marks mean you can't have certains stratigiums etc
Nightlord1987 wrote: Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....
Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.
Edit: Phone is euughh
I think you're missing the point...
What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....
Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.
Edit: Phone is euughh
I think you're missing the point...
What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.
So far that we don't know, we have purge, Flawless, the tzeenchian and one khornate aswell as the red Corsairs.
I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Don't think there are any restrictions to renegade chapters for marks. Actually, in 8th edition, I think you can even stuff different marks of troops into the same Rhino now. And the Rhino itself can also bear a different mark of chaos than the troops it transports. lol You could have a unit of reaper chain cannon havocs with mark of slanaash in the Rhino along with a unit of 5 berserkers. Nothing will happen, the berserkers won't kill anyone in the Rhino, and the Rhino won't eat anyone either...lol
warboss wrote: I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').
Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
If black crusade is anything to go by then there are ways to make your own fresh if you know the right rituals and have the materials. Far lesser versions of the rubric effectively.
warboss wrote: I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').
Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.
I appreciate the explanation but I preferred the more balanced sounding "Undivided" moniker where you worship aspects of all four gods as opposed to something that sounds you simply haven't picked your major in college yet. It might as well have been changed to undecided.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Nothing stops you from using the generic Captain. Librarians and Chaplains and Techmarines (formerly the Master of the Forge) have super limited options in the first place. They would never have fit your "build your army" standard.
I don't play marines. It's about the signal that GW is sending us about how they think about their game.
And good luck trying to find a convincing count-as for Guilliman in a custom chapter…
warboss wrote: Don't be ridiculous. Chaos players can *NEVER* be happy. Whining online is their version of the Long War regardless of what GW does or how many boxes they check off on that playerbase's wishlist like new models, demon primarchs, legion rules, etc. Until there is a return to the 3.5 Codex days where Chaos reigned supreme, they will continue their unhappy little rebellion.
Don't be the half-sibbling of the lord of Maccrage for Chaos players.
warboss wrote: I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').
Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.
Yep. Marks used to give a tangible bonus. Now, they're just a way to unlock icons. There's the stratagems too but... eh? Not a big fan of the whole stratagem/cp system considering where we are with it right now.
Still, the point is probably that these Renegade Warbands aren't as devoted to a single god as some of the mono-god Legions are.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Is there really no Mark restricions on the Renegades? Because it seems super cheezy to have Slaaneshi Purge or Khorne Flawless Host....
Purge is a renegade option as is Flawless Host, you pick one per detachment.
Edit: Phone is euughh
I think you're missing the point...
What he means is: you can take a Trait for a Renegade faction that is, fluff-wise, dedicated to a particular god, but then give them Marks from a different god. There are no evident restrictions on this besides our loyalty to fluff and self-respect.
Edit: Ninja'd
I wouldn't worry about it to much its probably an oversight that will be corrected in an FAQ.
Not really. Plenty of Novels like Pandorax or Malodrax or Death of Antagonis or the Salamander Novels or whatever where Chaos Marines are mostly fodder and die in droves, even to Catachans, etc...
GW Bolter-Pron lives by sending Spikey Marines into the meat grinder typically 40K-ridiculous numbers.
As far as your novel selection goes it underscores one thing... When Chaos is the antagonist and needs to lose they bring CSM as fodder; when Chaos are the protagonist they're veteran marines that bring Cultists as fodder and mostly win. To that degree, GW's done a great job of translating the lore onto the tabletop, however most CSM players are here to be protagonists in their own narrative and not being pushed into taking the version of a CSM army that's depicted as losing in the lore and struggles on the tabletop.
Any CSM stupid enough to fight as fodder would have long ago been killed, leaving only veterans.
Armies are allowed to have more than one viable way to play; they're allowed to have more than one viable troop choice. Many of the points changes and tweaks are happening due to feedback from events. If the inner circle of people who report back to GW say "we're only seeing Cultists" we get what we got. I think its something of a disservice in this instance and seems to be driven by the orthodoxy to be like loyalist and that it says Space Marines so it should mostly be that... but there isn't anything that really says CSM need to have that same sort of balance of different units. With Space Marines in general being cookie cutter, I think anything that allows a type of "SM" army to deviate from whats typical is more distinctive and offers a more varied opportunity for game play.
Hey look, someone gets my reasoning behind Chosen as the main troops and deleting the basic Chaos Marine entry!
It is certainly an option, problem is though, chosen ain't that great either.
I'd actually say that Chosen are fantastic in the same manner as using Company Vets: keep them cheap and double their firepower.
Main difference is now that 6th member is most definitely carrying a Rotor Cannon instead of...well something else.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
warboss wrote: I did miss Undivided when they started taking it away. I suppose they couldn't think of a dedicated model kit to use it with so nixed it. :(
From what was explained to me it was more a case of there is no such thing as "Undivided" (with a capital "U"). You can be dedicated to the four Chaos Gods, or you can be unaligned (small 'u').
Avoiding "Undivided" was a big thing when doing the Black Crusade RPG.
Yep. Marks used to give a tangible bonus. Now, they're just a way to unlock icons. There's the stratagems too but... eh? Not a big fan of the whole stratagem/cp system considering where we are with it right now.
Still, the point is probably that these Renegade Warbands aren't as devoted to a single god as some of the mono-god Legions are.
Totaly agree....I took a break from 40k a few years ago, and when I came back I was baffled that marks did not give any bonus whatsoever (except icons and strats)
Never forget that for one portion of Chaos' existence there, the effects of Marks were supplanted by Icons, and Chaos Marines would forget what God they were dedicated to if the Iconbearer died.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Never forget that for one portion of Chaos' existence there, the effects of Marks were supplanted by Icons, and Chaos Marines would forget what God they were dedicated to if the Iconbearer died.
I hated that so much.
To be honest, I think the current system isn't actually that bad from a fluff perspective. In a way, it reflects quite well how fickle the Chaos Gods really are. You (a CSM) dedicate your existence fully to one of the Four but you will actually reap any benefits that translate to the game on the tabletop only rarely, namely when one of those strats is popped for you or a Sorcerer helps things along.
For those whose dedication and worship goes beyond and into the realms of true insanity, well, they turn into the cult CSM. A CSM dedicated to Khorne would usually perhaps only be pretty adept at using a chainsword but otherwise simply suffer from anger management issues. He could occasionally (conceivably - it's not that likely to happen on the tabletop) become possessed by a blind, bezerk rage in the midst of battle and attack a second time. A Berzerker, however, always has +1S and +1A, which could be interpreted as Khorne's favour. Same works for the other marks, too.
I'll admit this reasoning is more difficult to apply to CSM daemon engines, who don't get the benefits corresponding to the respective possessing entities (like Quicksilver Swiftness, for example).
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?
After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.
Mandragola wrote: Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?
After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.
It perfectly could be. The only thing is that it runs into The Tale of Two 40ks", because on the one hand you have the fluffy, narrative lists made to explore the lore and for the joy of fielding an interesting force (that are really helped along by these kinds of flexible rules, allowing more unique and flavorful combinations), and hard, competitive lists made to optimize the faction and with the goal of fielding a powerful force (which will milk those flexible rules for everything they can).
I enjoy the creative freedom these new rules give, but I recognise that some people will use them to build disgustingly efficient combos.
Mandragola wrote: Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?
After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.
Well The Purged were always represented by Death Guard in the first place as they were a Death Guard warband. The need to differentiate them is weird to me.
Mandragola wrote: Could it be that it's deliberate not to fix renegade marines to particular cults?
After all, they aren't meant to be an exhaustive list of all the traitor marines. It seems pretty reasonable to come up with a homebrew renegade list using the rules for whichever renegade chapter you like, and have them worship any of the gods.
Well The Purged were always represented by Death Guard in the first place as they were a Death Guard warband. The need to differentiate them is weird to me.
THe pruge, would be a candidate for plague marines no?
also were are the Celaved, i think they would've been a better candidate technically for Renegades ?
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
Fluff wise, Purge are one of the many splinters of the former Death Guard, because Death Guard didn't exist in 40K as a coherent Legion before the 8th ret-con. The Death Guard flagship was commanded by Huron and the rest was scattered across the galaxy in rogue warbands, joined the Black Legion, etc.., etc..
That's only partly true. In GWs Codizes they never were mentioned to be Death Guard, not even only Nurgle aligned. Only in FWs Siege of Vraks they were Part of the Death Guard, like almost every Nurgle warband.
I forgot how they're described in the DG Codex, they might Feature in some small blurb there,but I'm only sure about the Cleaved.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
While referencing actual sources.
So far we have seen nothing to suggest them not beeing DG
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
While referencing actual sources.
So far we have seen nothing to suggest them not beeing DG
FW Sources list them as Death Guard, GW Sources list them as having uncertain origins.
Since GW wrote about them most frequently (and frequently ignores or changes FW writing) I think its safe to assume the Uncertain Origins.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
While referencing actual sources.
So far we have seen nothing to suggest them not beeing DG
FW Sources list them as Death Guard, GW Sources list them as having uncertain origins.
Since GW wrote about them most frequently (and frequently ignores or changes FW writing) I think its safe to assume the Uncertain Origins.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard.
Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
While referencing actual sources.
So far we have seen nothing to suggest them not beeing DG
GW lists them as a renegade chapter so we have seen GW list them as a renegade chapter.
They can still fight under the Death Guard and be considered a sub faction without being the Death Guard. Just like all the sub factions under the Black Legion that are not the Black Legion.
Not Online!!! wrote: I personally would bet that the mono god Cults get access to cultmarines as troops, whilest red Corsairs probably are free to choose.
That wouldn't make a ton of sense, for the Scourged at least. They don't have any meaningful connection to the Thousand Sons, they wouldn't have any Rubric Marines that they weren't borrowing or stealing.
Hiring, don't forget that the sorcerers also from time to time work as mercs.
Yeah, if only there was some way to represent the minority of Rubric Marines the Scourged may have at their disposal. Maybe if they were in a different slot, so they still have to run their own guys as their core troop but can potentially take Rubric Marines in a more limited fashion in the way that the other, non-Thousand Sons legions do. If only such a thing existed.
You wound me, but in case of the Purge Plaguemarines make sense since they are a splintter of the deathguard. Also Berzeker Chirurgeons do exist.
And the Flawless host also has a modus operandi close enough to the emperors Children.
But i get your point.
The Purge are a renegade chapter and not a splinter off the Death Guard.
That one being a wiki and the only wiki to list The Purge as being part of the Death Guard. But GW lists them as a renegade chapter so whatever Lexicanum thinks, its wrong.
While referencing actual sources.
So far we have seen nothing to suggest them not beeing DG
FW Sources list them as Death Guard, GW Sources list them as having uncertain origins.
Since GW wrote about them most frequently (and frequently ignores or changes FW writing) I think its safe to assume the Uncertain Origins.
Frequently means nothing in terms of depth tough.
From what I can tell there wasnt really any depth to them in the Siege of Vraks either. Where their vehicles are also shown in the Colors of the Death Guard and not the colors of The Purge. Vraks I believe is also older than some of their listings as being of Uncertain Origin.
I think it more likely to be a FW mistake, or them listing another splinter of the Death Guard as The Purge.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Are you sure about that? Have they said thats all for the Chaos release? Wasn't there some Chaos Sorcerer Rumor Engine or something?
That has me intrigued. If not, then please continue!
To add:
They could easily add some of the units that didn't get updated (Chaos Termie Lords/Sorcerers) in Killteam boxes or as Blackstone Fortress packs, right?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Are you sure about that? Have they said thats all for the Chaos release? Wasn't there some Chaos Sorcerer Rumor Engine or something?
That has me intrigued. If not, then please continue!
To add:
They could easily add some of the units that didn't get updated (Chaos Termie Lords/Sorcerers) in Killteam boxes or as Blackstone Fortress packs, right?
Well the traitor guard would fit the bill for cultists.
In vigilus isn't there a part where the deathguard attack the purge because they are killing everyone while the death guard were trying to infect people with plagues.
I note that the latest Regimental Standard link to the Fallen page on the GW site with an entertaining bit of foreshadowing. Has that been discussed to death yet?
I am pretty sure it wouldn't be the first time a new book had the old models in the pictures. Especially if GW didn't bother making a new picture to print in their reprinted book with added pages. So there could be a new sorcerer but GW just didn't waste the money putting its picture in the book.
Flinty wrote: I note that the latest Regimental Standard link to the Fallen page on the GW site with an entertaining bit of foreshadowing. Has that been discussed to death yet?
Probably just a nod to the fact that the Fallen play a pretty big minor role in the second Vigilus book.
Flinty wrote: I note that the latest Regimental Standard link to the Fallen page on the GW site with an entertaining bit of foreshadowing. Has that been discussed to death yet?
And I like how they recommend you get your lasgun working again by chanting in binary: "Pew! Pew!" or singing "Ode to a Flashlight".
Sgt. Cortez wrote: That's only partly true. In GWs Codizes they never were mentioned to be Death Guard, not even only Nurgle aligned. Only in FWs Siege of Vraks they were Part of the Death Guard, like almost every Nurgle warband.
I forgot how they're described in the DG Codex, they might Feature in some small blurb there,but I'm only sure about the Cleaved.
In ADB's "Black Legion", the Purge are noted as being a splinter faction of the Death Guard.
aracersss wrote: With new slaanesh coming soon for aos ... I can only bet new 40kEC follow through soonish
Here's hoping!
I suspect the release wave'll be small and limited to things we have given the new CSM codex release, proably a noise marine kit and call it a day
Yeah I doubt we'll see Emperor's Children for awhile. And when we do, we'll get what we've seen for DG and Thousand Sons: Noise Marines, Terminators, Fulgrim, a bunch of characters, and a chaff unit (which already exists in AOS I think, so maybe not that.) And probably a monster/tank or two. Given how much Chaos just got, I doubt we'll see this for awhile. I expect them to release a new Codex and probably some more Primaris soon to round out regular marines and bring them up to speed with Chaos. We're used to Chaos being the prototype for them, so I expect this to continue.
BrianDavion wrote: I suspect the release wave'll be small and limited to things we have given the new CSM codex release, proably a noise marine kit and call it a day
I don't see them releasing Noise Marines without a full-blown Emperor's Children Codex. Fulgrim (all Snake'd up!), Noise Marines, Noise Marine Terminators, obligatory character clampacks for 1-offs with absurd sound-related ajective nounverb names (Loudblaze Cacophonator, Thundercrack Wailtormentor, y'know. their usual nonsense), maybe a Daemon Engine of some sort, a terrain piece (or just the one Slaanesh is getting in AoS), pink/purple dice, a book, and datacards that will be invalid within 2-3 years.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They'll find a way to put him in the Emperor's Children Codex, even though he renounced his Legion.
I hope not, although I fear you're right.
I tend to look at it this way:
The four main "Cult" characters - Typhus, Ahriman, Kharn and Fabius - are all kinda hated by their parent Legion.
Typhus made the Death Guard what they are today, and Mortarion and him aren't exactly friends. Ahriman made the Thousand Sons what they are today, and whilst they seemed to have patched things up a bit, Magnus was certainly no fan of Ahriman for a long time. Kharn shattered his own Legion, and still attacks his allies to this day! Fabius turned away from Slaaneshi-worship for his own goals.
So they're all outcasts in a way, so it's not awful if he's in the Emp Children Codex.
For the more "loyal" Emperor's Children we have Lucius the Eternally Useless and the inevitable return of Lord Snakeington.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They'll find a way to put him in the Emperor's Children Codex, even though he renounced his Legion.
I hope not, although I fear you're right.
I tend to look at it this way:
The four main "Cult" characters - Typhus, Ahriman, Kharn and Fabius - are all kinda hated by their parent Legion.
Typhus made the Death Guard what they are today, and Mortarion and him aren't exactly friends.
Ahriman made the Thousand Sons what they are today, and whilst they seemed to have patched things up a bit, Magnus was certainly no fan of Ahriman for a long time.
Kharn shattered his own Legion, and still attacks his allies to this day!
Fabius turned away from Slaaneshi-worship for his own goals.
So they're all outcasts in a way, so it's not awful if he's in the Emp Children Codex.
For the more "loyal" Emperor's Children we have Lucius the Eternally Useless and the inevitable return of Lord Snakeington.
I get that the other three also renounced their legion, but they are still true to their respectively gods. Fabius is different as he never worshipped Slaanesh in any way and he sells his services to the highest bidding.
I still fear that you are right, and there is some logic in that, although I dislike it.
Have lucius as the legion champion, but keep fabius in the codex. Just replace his emperors children keyword with a mercenary rule that he can join chaos marine armies without using or disrupting legion traits.
I don't think there's necessarily any correlation between new daemon ranges and new 40k ranges. We've had the new Khorne stuff for quite a while but still the awful old zerkers.
If anything it matches up more with AoS than 40k. A good proportion of the stuff in the Tsons book is just AoS models ported across.
As of the moment, there is not a dedicated "chaff" unit for Slaanesh armies. And so far, I think only Tzeentch has had the chaff unit exist in both 40k and AoS (Daemons excluded.) Poxwalkers are only for 40k, Kairac alcoytes are only in AoS (though, artwork of them has shown up in 40k...), and bloodreavers are only in AoS. Only Tzaangors can be used in both systems, and even then, the 40k ones come with an additional gun sprue. (Not sure about the ones on disks, but I think they're all usable in 40k)
You guys make it sound like there's some desperate need to shift Fabius to another codex. Remember that Lucius was specifically introduced to give Emprah's Kiddies a Slaanesh worshipping named character (and possibly to make people forget about the unforgettable DOOMRIDER!). Fabius can stay in the general Chaos Marine codex where he belongs because that book isn't going anywhere and the eventual Emperor's Children codex won't be in dire need of named characters with Lucius, Fulgrim and possibly any named daemons Age of Sigmar might get and that get ported over.
Mandragola wrote: I don't think there's necessarily any correlation between new daemon ranges and new 40k ranges. We've had the new Khorne stuff for quite a while but still the awful old zerkers.
If anything it matches up more with AoS than 40k. A good proportion of the stuff in the Tsons book is just AoS models ported across.
The pattern people are hoping for exists. Both Tzeentch and Burgle got their AoS and 40k releases back to back. Khorne simply was too early for this particular thing, but even then GW realized the crossover potential and handed out new Bloodthrister profiles to go with the new model as well as introduced Khorne Daemonkin, which ended up being the first and only of its kind even though people hoped for other gods to get the same treatment.
And since Khorne was first and Tzeentch and Nurgle followed, the two most recent examples of a god specific AoS release keep up the hope that a 40k Slaanesh release isn't too far off.
Of course, people also hope that the AoS release will not be just a daemon release, me being one of them, and that we'll see mortal followers of Slaanesh as well. If that's not the case, we will most likely be looking at a half assed attempt like Khorne got. Nobody will be happy. GW will suck. You know the drill. But if it's both new daemonic and mortal units that see their release with Hedonites, there's actually a good chance to see 40k Slaaneshi releases as well fairly close to the AoS release.
Considering we got genestealer cults and chaos marines back to back, followed by slaanesh daemons that can be used in both systems, I foresee them focusing on AoS for a little while. I am praying that Emperors Children get their codex sooner rather than later but I want it to be with much fanfare and a huge wave of releases, which wont be for a few months at least. That said, considering how much nurgle stuff came out after the release of 8th edition, I dont think GW is afraid if flooding the market with one particular chaos god for a while.
My main concern, honestly, is the high amount of negativity around the chaos releases as of late. Every single article about chaos marines that GW posts is met with more bile than any other faction they've focused on since 8th launched. I'll be the first to suggest that they probably deserve it since they seem so out of touch with what chaos players want, but my concern is that in the future they may forego giving chaos marines new stuff thinking "well, no matter what we do they arent happy so let's just skip them".
Malika2 wrote: Or a Fabius Bile mini dex, include some weird enhanced marines in there and you're good to go.
He will get folded back into the Emperors children book whenever it's released. Kharne, Ahriman and Typhus were all outcasts after all and they seem to like folding them back in. IDK, could be wrong but it makes it easier for them that way.
I always considered Lucius the Eternal as the EC 'character'. Fabius Bile does need a new model though. I wouldn't mind them throwing him into the EC Codex. I don't really get the issue. The main thing is that he has a datasheet and he doesn't interrupt legion tactics when he's added into a detachment.
If you’re using multiple units of Havocs, you’ll likely have enough heavy weapons to take full units with the same weapon! If you keep it low on points, you can run four Heavy Bolters for 116 points per five-man unit. However, you can (and should!) invest in the new reaper chaincannons to dramatically increase your number of shots. These incredible weapons give you 8 shots at up to 24”, but since the Havocs can move and shoot with no penalty, you have an effective 30” range – I always believe you should consider a unit’s ‘total’ threat range when determining if it’s right for you.
If you’re using multiple units of Havocs, you’ll likely have enough heavy weapons to take full units with the same weapon! If you keep it low on points, you can run four Heavy Bolters for 116 points per five-man unit. However, you can (and should!) invest in the new reaper chaincannons to dramatically increase your number of shots. These incredible weapons give you 8 shots at up to 24”, but since the Havocs can move and shoot with no penalty, you have an effective 30” range – I always believe you should consider a unit’s ‘total’ threat range when determining if it’s right for you.
That is like rubbing salt in.
Haha, that quote is pure gold. eBay sellers are going to make a penny on that chaincannon.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I'm extremely annoyed by this "Give the new weapon a profile that make the old weapon seem like a tickler". Very very annoying.
"if you field multiple units of havocs, you will have enough guns to equip the whole squad with the same gun"
Meanwhile we get a rocket launcher in the csm box but no autocannon, ya know, the gun that is kinda a checkmark of csm....
I know it's been mentioned multiple times already, but ForgeWorld makes rotor cannons that will probably be much cheaper than buying individual bitz from bitz sellers.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I know it's been mentioned multiple times already, but ForgeWorld makes rotor cannons that will probably be much cheaper than buying individual bitz from bitz sellers.
Oh, they're a different look from the ones in the Havoc box, absolutely, but they remain an option for people who want it. It's still a scummy move on GWs part, I'm just spreading awareness of potential ways around it. I like the Havoc one better too, but not better enough to buy 4 boxes of Havocs or to pay bitz sellers for it.
So, people are still pretending that a unit of havocs with 4x reaper chaincannons is remotely a thing you'd want to do, huh?
I'm not saying it's not uncool for GW to make a new weapon and only put one in the box, but I'm just sitting here scratching my head and wondering why everyone actually wants to build this unit. They seem about as competitive as double lightning claw vanvets to me: decent damage if you can get them where they need to be, but hideously overcosted for their 1W 3+ no invuln profile.
33 points for a marine body! +1T is not going to make those not the VERY FIRST thing I shoot when I'm playing against you.
the_scotsman wrote: So, people are still pretending that a unit of havocs with 4x reaper chaincannons is remotely a thing you'd want to do, huh?
I'm not saying it's not uncool for GW to make a new weapon and only put one in the box, but I'm just sitting here scratching my head and wondering why everyone actually wants to build this unit. They seem about as competitive as double lightning claw vanvets to me: decent damage if you can get them where they need to be, but hideously overcosted for their 1W 3+ no invuln profile.
33 points for a marine body! +1T is not going to make those not the VERY FIRST thing I shoot when I'm playing against you.
Because csm stratagems reward bigger or more base Shooty units more.
8 shots turn to 16 f.e. Therefore the rotor is miles better then the hb even though mathemathically they are basically excactly the same shots per pts.
the_scotsman wrote: So, people are still pretending that a unit of havocs with 4x reaper chaincannons is remotely a thing you'd want to do, huh?
I'm not saying it's not uncool for GW to make a new weapon and only put one in the box, but I'm just sitting here scratching my head and wondering why everyone actually wants to build this unit. They seem about as competitive as double lightning claw vanvets to me: decent damage if you can get them where they need to be, but hideously overcosted for their 1W 3+ no invuln profile.
33 points for a marine body! +1T is not going to make those not the VERY FIRST thing I shoot when I'm playing against you.
I agree. The whole concept strikes me as an unstoppable unit "on paper". And probably most people will end up remarking, after spending a ton of money to build, that it is a unit that never seems to do what they thought it would do.
Onslaught gattling cannons always look super intimidating when the dice are rolled at one of my units but they never seem to do anything. The reaper chaincannon is better than the small onslaught and worse than the big onslaught and I feel it will throw heaping piles of 'meh' at me if I ever see it.
Every model that you kill in the squad will drastically lower its threat potential and given its range and methods delivery you might only get a turn to blow the whole unit on some worthless chaff.
I think the place I'll use the uber-rotor cannon, if at all, is basic CSM squads, not so much in Havoc squads. A heavy weapon squad typically relies on distance and ablative wounds to stay around long enough to stick around. This version of Havocs have neither. They will likely die relatively quickly and using abilities like shooting twice doesn't make them play better as much as it compensates for not lasting longer.
Terminator article made me sad.
Lots of stuff and nonsense about being a melee unit (that also should have heavy weapons because reasons), but they're so amazingly hard to kill that you must hide them in melee, which somehow magically doesn't have volume of attacks, despite lots of armies having cheap units with multiple attacks and/or bonus attack weapons and/or rerolls.
Good completely unrelated psychic power though: No invulnerable saves.
I don't think the 4 chaingun havoc unit will be a thing, but I do think people will want a lot of chainguns. A troops unit of 5 CSMs with a chaingun and combi-bolter seems very viable. I can certainly see these having a place in battalions and maybe even brigades.
So either way you cut it, people will want lots of chainguns. I guess it might be worth building some havocs with autocannons or maybe lascannons.
I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though. What an absurd choice that would be.
Mandragola wrote: I don't think the 4 chaingun havoc unit will be a thing, but I do think people will want a lot of chainguns. A troops unit of 5 CSMs with a chaingun and combi-bolter seems very viable. I can certainly see these having a place in battalions and maybe even brigades.
So either way you cut it, people will want lots of chainguns. I guess it might be worth building some havocs with autocannons or maybe lascannons.
I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though. What an absurd choice that would be.
I have actually though about this very similarly. 5 CSM squad with Chaingun + Combi-bolter seems kinda competive.
But it all comes down to point cost and I expect Chaingun costing easily over 20+ points.
With Punishing Volley, 4x Chaingun Havoks will likely earn back their points before an enemy can kill them. Also said opponent will likely spend more resources removing them than they were worth... a net gain for you.
Also if you have far juicier threats and Havoks survive they'll likely keep being way more disruptive than 150-ish points would suggest.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: With Punishing Volley, 4x Chaingun Havoks will likely earn back their points before an enemy can kill them. Also said opponent will likely spend more resources removing them than they were worth... a net gain for you.
Also if you have far juicier threats and Havoks survive they'll likely keep being way more disruptive than 150-ish points would suggest.
They're a good unit, but it isn't that simple. Especially with no ablative wounds.
They’re a good unit because of what they can do in one volley.
Put them in a rhino and they can disembark 3 inches and then move a full 6 giving them a threat range of 33, you can even warptime them for a threat range of 40. Then you can prescience them so now they’re hitting on 2”s rerolling 1’s. With cacophony they’re doubling their shots so 32 becomes 64.
Because their main target is chaff they don’t need a huge range because chaff is always deployed ahead of the main army. Plus at 150 pointts and t5 they require quite a bit of firepower to take down with small arms. And even better if someone uses heavy weapons to take them out. That’s heavy weapons not shooting at your armor
Mandragola wrote: I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though.
Why not? Someone actually pointed out earlier conversion from HB to minigun is trivial, just replace HB barrel with rotary element. It's so simple conversion you can do it in a few minutes yourself out of plastic tube and greenstuff no problem...
AduroT wrote: Pop Goes The Monkey makes them in a few varieties as well.
People still recommend that ?
Not only he shown he has law in his behind and is all around terrible person, his stuff (at least things that aren't 1:1 copy/paste knockoffs of GW bits) look like garbage on top of being so expensive even Forge World looks reasonable in comparison
Not Online!!! wrote: Has anyone realized, that all the squads of terminators they showed so far have the excact same weapon composition?
proably cause they're all the same termies. they built a single squad for the studio army and left it at that. not even GW thinks lots of termies is good!
Not Online!!! wrote: Has anyone realized, that all the squads of terminators they showed so far have the excact same weapon composition?
proably cause they're all the same termies. they built a single squad for the studio army and left it at that. not even GW thinks lots of termies is good!
Well they nearly built for all groups a squad and all have a reaper with energy fist.
I do hope we get atleast there 5 Chainaxes.
Mandragola wrote: I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though.
Why not? Someone actually pointed out earlier conversion from HB to minigun is trivial, just replace HB barrel with rotary element. It's so simple conversion you can do it in a few minutes yourself out of plastic tube and greenstuff no problem...
How very nice of them! I know when I'm paying $12 a miniature I always prefer them to include a weapon close to the one I want so as to make it easier for me to convert my parts from scratch instead of, oh I don't know, just including more than 1 of the part I actually want. No, no I much prefer them including multiple copies of the weapon that has literally been in every single box of plastic multipart Chaos Space Marines ever produced rather than the new weapon that nobody has any copies of because it didn't exist up until now and that does basically the same thing as the old weapon but better.
I mean I don't know about you, but when I go rummaging through my bits box the first thing I always think is man, I wish I had me some more chaos heavy bolter bits. But it looks like at long last my prayers have finally been answered! Now all I need are some left-handed powerfists pointing at something and I think I'm set. Thanks GW!
Mandragola wrote: I don't think the 4 chaingun havoc unit will be a thing, but I do think people will want a lot of chainguns. A troops unit of 5 CSMs with a chaingun and combi-bolter seems very viable. I can certainly see these having a place in battalions and maybe even brigades.
So either way you cut it, people will want lots of chainguns. I guess it might be worth building some havocs with autocannons or maybe lascannons.
I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though. What an absurd choice that would be.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
@Irbis: I have never had any problems with working with that maker (didn't know anybody ever did) or his products (I have found his pauldrons extremely useful in my conversions). So as not to take the conversation off track, please PM me with your experience.
Mandragola wrote: I don't think the 4 chaingun havoc unit will be a thing, but I do think people will want a lot of chainguns. A troops unit of 5 CSMs with a chaingun and combi-bolter seems very viable. I can certainly see these having a place in battalions and maybe even brigades.
So either way you cut it, people will want lots of chainguns. I guess it might be worth building some havocs with autocannons or maybe lascannons.
I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though. What an absurd choice that would be.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
AduroT wrote: Pop Goes The Monkey makes them in a few varieties as well.
People still recommend that ?
Not only he shown he has law in his behind and is all around terrible person, his stuff (at least things that aren't 1:1 copy/paste knockoffs of GW bits) look like garbage on top of being so expensive even Forge World looks reasonable in comparison
Uh, yeah, I really like his stuff and find it quite good. Not everything he makes is a style I would use myself, but I can’t think of anything he makes that I would call garbage at all.
Mandragola wrote: I don't think the 4 chaingun havoc unit will be a thing, but I do think people will want a lot of chainguns. A troops unit of 5 CSMs with a chaingun and combi-bolter seems very viable. I can certainly see these having a place in battalions and maybe even brigades.
So either way you cut it, people will want lots of chainguns. I guess it might be worth building some havocs with autocannons or maybe lascannons.
I don't know why they still bother making CSMs with heavy bolters though. What an absurd choice that would be.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
Whilest i agree with the position, i would still have prefered an autocannon, luckily the hb is indeed easily modified into an autocannon.
Togusa wrote: It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
They really do, when that sprue space could have been used for better options and making a viable unit wouldn't require spending as much on conversion parts. If GW is going to make options with terrible rules then they should at least refrain from having those options take up valuable sprue space.
(Well, that or sell every kit with enough copies of every option to equip it however you like without resorting to third-party bits sellers, but we know that's never going to happen.)
I’m not a competitive player anymore either and I just make units that I enjoy.
That being said, I always want the game to be designed with competitiveness in mind to keep things balanced and all options useful.
Would it kill GW to make something like heavy bolters assault 3 or 4. Or give them +1 to hit <infantry>, or extra hits on 6’s against <infantry> or something? Give them a niche.
Togusa wrote: It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
They really do, when that sprue space could have been used for better options and making a viable unit wouldn't require spending as much on conversion parts. If GW is going to make options with terrible rules then they should at least refrain from having those options take up valuable sprue space.
(Well, that or sell every kit with enough copies of every option to equip it however you like without resorting to third-party bits sellers, but we know that's never going to happen.)
This is the other half of the coin really, when the base weapons are not even available in high enough numbers to field the full box with the exact same weapon, like the bolters in the new csm box.
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Brutus_Apex wrote: I’m not a competitive player anymore either and I just make units that I enjoy.
That being said, I always want the game to be designed with competitiveness in mind to keep things balanced and all options useful.
Would it kill GW to make something like heavy bolters assault 3 or 4. Or give them +1 to hit <infantry>, or extra hits on 6’s against <infantry> or something? Give them a niche.
Have you heared about the Lord and saviour rotor Gun?
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
Good for you. The context of this thread is how to play the CSM as optimally as possible though, ergo no one is ever going to talk to you like we're discussing fluffy beerhammer.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
Good for you. The context of this thread is how to play the CSM as optimally as possible though, ergo no one is ever going to talk to you like we're discussing fluffy beerhammer.
Actually this is the news thread, go for the tactics subforum instead for such discussions.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
Good for you. The context of this thread is how to play the CSM as optimally as possible though, ergo no one is ever going to talk to you like we're discussing fluffy beerhammer.
Is it really though? I often don't comment on 'playability' because I also play for fun. I think that's why a lot of us who play for fun don't post because of comments like this. The whole DBTG syndrome is very tiring so we just don't bother & just wait for the posts with the pretty pictures. To say 'the context of this thread' is whatever is wrong. This is for everyone who's interested in ALL aspects of the hobby.
My fear was justified and only 1 pair of LCs? Booooo-urns.
Not sure I'll even get a box to steal their legs for truescale CSM now, simply adding plasticcard to CSM legs works okay. It's a more slender look than Termi legs, but not bad.
Edit: I see a lot of moulded Havoc legs on my regular CSMs in the future if those bad boys are bigger And the gatling screams "add me to a Slaughterpriest for a badass Vulcan Raven conversion'. I like the Havoc as is, too, so...two boxes for two gatlings?! Curse you Kojima.
About Reaper Havocs : with-1 to hit from Dark Apostle, Alpha Legion and Nurgle spell, these guys can very easily get -3 to hit... Nothing bar Dark Reapers or Dakkadakka Dakka Orks will be able to hit hem.
Well, having a fair amount of the old metal and plastic termies I wasn't very interested already. After looking at what you get for the price... yeah, nope thanks.
Yeah it looks like the third sprue is missing from the Havoc page. I mean how hard is it to get this stuff right?
One other thing that's annoying about the Terminators is there's no Icon options. Similar to how the CSM went from having 5 differents bits in the kits to an Black legion eye or just a chaos star.
I don't know what this trend towards removing bits from kits is about but I wish they'd stop it.
That can't be the case - one sprue has chaincannon/heavy bolter/autocannon, while the other has lascannon/missile launcher/special weapons. Can't double up the chaincannon sprue obviously and if you doubled up the latter you'd have 2x las/missile but only 1x autocannon and heavy bolter. There has to be a third sprue we're not seeing
What’s really eating up space on these sprues? Those tusks and trophy racks. Makes me wish they’d all gone to the style of trophy rack Abaddon has just to free up the real estate. 4 or 5 more combi-weapons or combat weapons would make a bunch of people happy.
It would have made more sense to double up ( if they were, looks like we are *probably* getting three different sprues) on the chain cannon sprue as we are already getting a heavy bolter and lascannon in the standard CSM kit. But just leaving out a whole sprue picture on the website? Poor on their part.
How the feth did GW made Grey Knight Terminators with 10 fething falchions 5 swords , 5 lances, a power staff, banners, etc, etc... and then does this terminator kit so lacking in weapons?
Fething trophy racks! They take so much space!
GK terminators will always remain the best multipart plastic terminator kit in relations quality-parts-price followed by the Deathwing one.
BlaxicanX wrote: Good for you. The context of this thread is how to play the CSM as optimally as possible though, ergo no one is ever going to talk to you like we're discussing fluffy beerhammer.
This is a release thread. People read it for news, not complaining. In theory.
A lot of people (myself included) think they're an "older kit." Something that should have been released awhile ago, but only now is coming out. No primaris heads on the trophy racks, less ornate than the CSM, oddly proportioned limbs, etc. Maybe they were meant to come out alongside Dark Vengeance or something.
So, the original fear when the sprues for the havocs leaked is that there would only be ONE of each weapon. Then GW came out and said that most of the weapons had a double in the kit.
My only hope is that these terminators have a sprue that we haven't seen, because holy crap I dont want to have to get 5 boxes to properly load out a minimal squad with combi bolters and chainaxes.
Edit: never mind. The GW site lists the weapons. Only one of each as is seen on the sprues. Good lord this is upsetting.
GaroRobe wrote: A lot of people (myself included) think they're an "older kit." Something that should have been released awhile ago, but only now is coming out. No primaris heads on the trophy racks, less ornate than the CSM, oddly proportioned limbs, etc. Maybe they were meant to come out alongside Dark Vengeance or something.
Old GW sculptor would make legs and torso separated bits. And went out of his way to make sure every single gun had a bayonet attached, even if that meant making a third sprue, then he'll add a top mount banner, wepons and tons of accessories on the 3rd sprue. This kit is definitely not made in those time, the sprue design look very similar to the Blightlord Termie.
The more I look at that Terminator kit and with the idea that it might have been sitting for a while before release.I mean it looks like the hands of the powerfist are identical to the Raptors. I wonder if Abaddon and these Terminators were meant to drop before the Primaris but switched things up. The terminator feet are awfully flat, like the old models rather than the new. I'd love an explanation but obviously we'll never get one.
Abaddon feels more "new." Either he and Guilliman were designed at the same time, or he was designed after him, since both models mirror each other. He also has the Primaris marines all over him, so that can help determine his age. I feel like if he was made at the time as the terminators, he'd be posed standing on a dead terminator, or a dreadnought arm like Magnus.
I don't think speculating on the age that a kit was sculpted is going to help, but here's my 2 cents.
The new terminators are the proper 'scale'. That tells me they were designed with the 'scale up' in mind, which puts its design at least around the same time as the Dark Imperium range.
Yeah I really want to like this new terminators and even if they are good and cool in design (And the helmets in the sprue are nice), but as a multipart plastic kit, is very mediocre. (To GW standards, of course, just like Blightlord terminators are much worse than TS Exalted Sorcerrers as a kit, or Blightkigns)
Wow the Terminator kit is just awful. 1 each of all those different weapon types and perhaps the lamest looking Chainfist ever produced (ok, not the lamest - FW still gets that dubious "honour").
Now before nostalgia goggles make us forget everything, the previous Chaos Termy kit's weapon options weren't huge - 1 Chain Fist, 1 Power Maul, 2 Power Axes, 2 power fists, 1 Combi-Melta, 1 Combi-Flamer, 1 Reaper AC, one Heavy Flamer and 2 Combi-Bolters. So the new kit does have a greater variety of weapon options - that much is true - but just one of each seems really poor given what GW can do with their plastics technology.
As Galas so perfectly put it: How the feth did GW made Grey Knight Terminators with 10 fething falchions 5 swords , 5 lances, a power staff, banners, etc, etc... and then does this terminator kit so lacking in weapons?
Well, if we're honest I think we all know the answer to this question...
And then we get to the Havocs, who GW want AUD$90 for (the feth?), and they aren't even showing the third sprue, which has to exist for there to be 2 of each gun (except for Malibu Stacey's new Gatling Gun). It's a pretty kit, to be sure, but damn the cheek on them for charging that much for a Chaos Dev squad. The Community Survey cannot come quick enough...
The new kit has more heads, more weapons, and greater variety of weapons. The old kit doesn't have lightning claws at all, and no combi-plasma. The new kit also has enough combi-bolters to fit the entire squad with that basic weapon, which is also a big upgrade from the old number.
So, actually, this is a big upgrade. Yes, it may take some effort to make some unique builds, but...
Well, let's be real, Chaos has always gotten the short end of the stick when they compare themselves to anything Imperium based. So, don't compare Chaos to anything Imperium. Instead, let's look at what they gained over the old kit. If you want a greater variety of weapons, hit up e-bay and snag up some old Terminator kits or bits. There are also plenty of forgeworld bits for things like chainaxes and other weapons.
The Havocs, despite having only one chain cannon, are getting not only that new weapon, but also two of every other weapon. This is vastly superior to the old kits that had only one of each weapon in metal. The extra plasma gun, melta gun, and flamer can also be swapped around with the normal Chaos Marines.
Speaking of the normal Chaos Marines, they gained a missile launcher, so if you don't like the havoc missile launcher, use that one. There's some more variety. They also gained a lot more close combat weapon options. Yes, they lost out on the normal bolters that I'm sure will be in high demand now that people are planning on taking min squads of 5, but GW doesn't tailor to min-maxing. Yes, they lost the different icons, but the icon of flame is featured in the Rubric Marines, and the Icon of Despair has two models in the Death Guard range. I'm sure that the Icon of Excess and Icon of Wrath will be forthcoming in those kits, and really, if you paint the normal chaos star that does come in the kit different colors, you can represent it as any of the icons you want. Pink/purple for Excess, red for Wrath, green for Despair, blue or red for Flame.
Let's also remember that when it comes to special weapons, even the updated Tactical Marine box is lacking on many of the options. If you want to throw a lascannon or plasma cannon into a tactical squad, you need to get a box of Devastators. It's the same for Chaos, but Chaos has a lot of different melee weapons you can give to the champion, or use to convert other models in your force.
The great part is that when you combine the options in the Chaos Marines, Havocs, and Raptors sets, you get a massive variety of heads, shoulder pads, special weapons, melee weapons, and pretty much whatever else you could want to customize your army and make each model unique. Then you have the Shadowspear models that, while simpler (not ETB but close), they can be chopped up into all sorts of different things as well.
I sold of 15k points of Chaos Marines 7+ years ago because I didn't like how GW was treating the faction as a whole. Now? I'm thrilled by the new size and detail of the kits that are coming out. The fact that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have their own Codexes and Emperor's Children and World Eaters are likely close, the fact that all 4 Greater Daemons will finally be in plastic, all of the above... from a modeling standpoint, we're in a much better place than we were before.
How dare GW only have one chaincannon in a havoc set? How dare they have only one plasma-gun? I know you guys weren't born yesterday. You're here complaining because you've been complaining about these things for 5-10+ years. Sure, we can expect more out of GW, but they're also a business that's doing what businesses do: keeping to what has made them money before.
And then we get to the Havocs, who GW want AUD$90 for (the feth?), and they aren't even showing the third sprue, which has to exist for there to be 2 of each gun (except for Malibu Stacey's new Gatling Gun). It's a pretty kit, to be sure, but damn the cheek on them for charging that much for a Chaos Dev squad. The Community Survey cannot come quick enough...
Havoc has a reasonable price for a 3 sprue GW kit in 2019. Look at Atalan jackal, they don't even get the extra sprue.
Lol I complaint about the Deathshroud Termie pricing in the last survey and that did absolutely nothing, and it were GW bestseller for awhile even. These survey did squat, as long as GW profit still double, they will not stop experimenting with ridiculous pricing.
We like things like Meltaguns, Heavy Flamers, Terminators and Heavy Bolters. We put them on units we like. We go play and we have a great time with our friends, without Castellan knights, Ynarri bull sauce and all the other hyper competitive nonsense.
It's okay, the Heavy Bolters on the sprue won't hurt you.
Good for you. The context of this thread is how to play the CSM as optimally as possible though, ergo no one is ever going to talk to you like we're discussing fluffy beerhammer.
I always come to the N&R section for heavy supermeta competition advice, thanks for reaffirming why I enjoy this.
The terminator kit should have had another sprue. GK Termies have 3 and they are 9€ cheaper. I know, different times, but still.
Of course at this point is useless to complaint, GW don't do anymore what they did with the basic CSM or OrkBoyz and repackage a kit with an extra sprue.
Galas wrote: The terminator kit should have had another sprue. GK Termies have 3 and they are 9€ cheaper. I know, different times, but still.
Of course at this point is useless to complaint, GW don't do anymore what they did with the basic CSM or OrkBoyz and repackage a kit with an extra sprue.
That kit also came out back in 6th edition.
This is how GW does price hikes now. They don't do the old yearly ones, they just steadily up the price of kits as they replace them.
I think we'd be less annoyed about a price hike if the level of bits and options were the same. If the new Chaos Termies were €9 more expensive than the GKs yet also had 5 fists, 5 chainaxes, a smattering of Chainfists/Power Mauls/Power Axes/Power Swords/Lightning Claws, enough parts to give all of them any of the combi-weapons, a Reaper and a Heavy Flamer there wouldn't be much left to complain about.
But it doesn't. It's bare bones and more expensive.
It's 5 Marines for $90. There's nothing reasonable about that.
I count the sprue, for that reason 5 Aberrant on 1 sprue or 3 tiny knight on 1 sprue, or 10 ghost on a sprue for the price of 2 sprue kit is not a reasonable price. They could be making a single tiny dude packed to the brim with option into a giant sprue and I'd still call that reasonable price if the price is comparable to similar products.
Based on how the new sprue looks, I have to be the negative Nancy...
...when Kill-Team Elites drops, and Terminators become an option... I'll probably be using Tartaros or Cataphractii terminators as a proxy- for one, I do not want a Chaos Army or any more full blown armies.
Secondly, terminator helmets irk me. They look like a cow crossbred with a Dustbuster. The Chaos version just looks like someone added tusks to that already hideous combo.
Sorry to anyone who really loves the general Terminators' aesthetic, but to me it's the least appealing aesthetic of all 40k Infantry.
But he people we get two pf's. Aren't you happy about that? No?
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AngryAngel80 wrote: I always felt that terminator helmets kinda had dog faces. Like if you glue them in tilted to the side kinda looking down they look so cute.
Yep always thought of them more like that.
That or walrusses.
"Indomitus Terminator armour features large rounded pauldrons and an iconic helmet design that resembles the face of a long-extinct species of Terran canid."
Indomitus pattern helmets are styled after "ancient Terran canids" according to the background. I'd say bulldog or a similiar breed going by the hanging jowls-looking respirator tubes.
I'm still unsure whether I want the new Termis or go for two boxes of Havocs. Like the Blightlords the weapon options are too hodgepodge and the weapons are not that good/cool looking compared to other examples of the same weapon. At least they're not downright UGLY like many Blightlords parts. Actually I had hoped that the new Termis have lots of cool wespons to arm my second squad of Blightlords (got an Infection Cyst for christmas), but now...sigh.
I love the Havocs, though. If the Havocs were more posable I'd only buy Havocs instead of normal CSM for their bigger size and more stylish chest armour with that lovely gorget and trade chainguns for bolters and chainswords
Edit: soundly beaten. That's what you get for hitting "send" on a commute through Germany and it's brilliant cellphone coverage.
So... either they're still not showing a havok sprue or the description is wrong, right?
I mean, it could still have two of each (which it won't, duh), but it'd still be wrong...
Albertorius wrote: So... either they're still not showing a havok sprue or the description is wrong, right?
I mean, it could still have two of each (which it won't, duh), but it'd still be wrong...
I can't find it in the image assets that normally can be found(there was a missing frame on the Eidolon of Mathlaan for example that could be found by replacing the sprue # with 7) that way.
The missing sprue, whatever it is, would contain:
-1x Lascannon
-1x Autocannon
-1x Heavy Bolter
-1x Missile Launcher
-2x Havoc bodies
From the sprue shots we have?
Spoiler:
The Champion and the Lascannon guy on the bottom are on the same sprue.
Reaper Chaincannon guy is on sprue #2.
Missile and Heavy Bolter chaps are on the missing sprue.
Also an interesting note:
This image? It's "FebWeekFourPreorders".
Ok, hear me out on this one, and it may alleviate some of the hostility toward GW regarding the terminators. Chaos and Imperium are different. Chaos warriors are extremely old and I'd expect each terminator is technically a character onto himself. Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality. This is probably their thought process which unfortunately doesn't help more competitive players, but then again, people should know GW doesn't primarily cater to that crowd anyway.
So instead of having access to different kit for different jobs like the Imperium, they are more attached to a certain weapon loadout in a personal way.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, hear me out on this one, and it may alleviate some of the hostility toward GW regarding the terminators. Chaos and Imperium are different. Chaos warriors are extremely old and I'd expect each terminator is technically a character onto himself. Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality. This is probably their thought process which unfortunately doesn't help more competitive players, but then again, people should know GW doesn't primarily cater to that crowd anyway.
So instead of having access to different kit for different jobs like the Imperium, they are more attached to a certain weapon loadout in a personal way.
The problem with this is chainaxes are the DEFAULT loadout. One of everything else I get, but one of the basic barebones option? Get fethed.
Terrible Terminators are terrible. They should have saved the mold cost and invested in cocaine instead. Would have done more good.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, hear me out on this one, and it may alleviate some of the hostility toward GW regarding the terminators. Chaos and Imperium are different. Chaos warriors are extremely old and I'd expect each terminator is technically a character onto himself. Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality. This is probably their thought process which unfortunately doesn't help more competitive players, but then again, people should know GW doesn't primarily cater to that crowd anyway.
So instead of having access to different kit for different jobs like the Imperium, they are more attached to a certain weapon loadout in a personal way.
I wasn't going to say anything, but since you already jinxed it, here we go. Sky Dwarfs and the big gun rats in Age of Sigmar got their original unit entries nerfed to exactly what's on the sprue as a fix for having only one gun option in the box but rules for several guns per unit on their warscroll.
I think it is important to keep complaining about the missing weapon options in these kits. You know what you can look forward to once GW feels the need to fix the situation.
Yup, the lack of the basic options is just daft. CSM''s should have at minimum 10 bolters and 10 bolt pistols and chainswords, Terminators should have the 5 chainaxes and Havocs should have 4 heavy bolters. I would take the Havoc Sergeant having reduced options in the sprue as well, another heavy weapon *cough, rotor cannon* in place of a couple of the special weapons would be fine as meltas and plasmas are generally easy to get hold of.
A quick scan of YouTube Havoc unboxings reveals the third Havoc sprue as well. Looks to be nothing exciting on there, two bodies and the 4 expected weapons.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Yup, the lack of the basic options is just daft. CSM''s should have at minimum 10 bolters and 10 bolt pistols and chainswords, Terminators should have the 5 chainaxes and Havocs should have 4 heavy bolters. I would take the Havoc Sergeant having reduced options in the sprue as well, another heavy weapon *cough, rotor cannon* in place of a couple of the special weapons would be fine as meltas and plasmas are generally easy to get hold of.
A quick scan of YouTube Havoc unboxings reveals the third Havoc sprue as well. Looks to be nothing exciting on there, two bodies and the 4 expected weapons.
Do you maybe have any link to the unboxings? I'd appreciate it
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I've managed to make this guy using the Shadowspear AC body:
I wasn't going to say anything, but since you already jinxed it, here we go. Sky Dwarfs and the big gun rats in Age of Sigmar got their original unit entries nerfed to exactly what's on the sprue as a fix for having only one gun option in the box but rules for several guns per unit on their warscroll.
I think it is important to keep complaining about the missing weapon options in these kits. You know what you can look forward to once GW feels the need to fix the situation.
It's a bit offtopic here, but the reason behind Overlords' gun nerf was that one choice was wildly outpacing the rest when it came to picks.
Add to it the Aether-Khemist's rule(pick a single weapon in the unit, add +1 to its attacks values) and the Grundstock Mortar became 2A 4+/3+ causing D3 damage.
Now?
The unit has a 'firing order', effectively, that makes it so the Aether Khemist's rule isn't going to be making things as dumb.
Stormfiends have had the writing on the wall since End Times. It just took them actually getting an army book for the change to happen.
You can keep repeating that until the cows come home Kan, but I don't believe for a second that they changed the unit's options to match the kit exactly because of 'balance' reasons.
bullyboy wrote: Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality.
If that were true, wouldn't there be more variety, not less?
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Yup, the lack of the basic options is just daft. CSM''s should have at minimum 10 bolters and 10 bolt pistols and chainswords, Terminators should have the 5 chainaxes and Havocs should have 4 heavy bolters.
Would you pay 50% more for each box your proposition would cost?
No, really, what you said would do exactly that, because that much pointless (especially the 4 heavy bolters no one uses...) gear would fill another sprue by itself with trivial ease. Also, your way of thinking makes no sense, you want to ditch special weapons (stuff that tends to be by far the most expensive bit on ebay or bit sites) in favour of bolters and other junk that not only costs peanuts per dozen everywhere, but you can have it for free if you ask nicely someone with big CSM or SM collection? What?
H.B.M.C. wrote: You can keep repeating that until the cows come home Kan, but I don't believe for a second that they changed the unit's options to match the kit exactly because of 'balance' reasons.
Deathwatch, Sternguard and Fallen can fill every squad with the exact same gun choice no problem despite only having 1 (or 0) in box. I wonder, why GW didn't nerf them exact same way if bits are the only consideration?
H.B.M.C. wrote: You can keep repeating that until the cows come home Kan, but I don't believe for a second that they changed the unit's options to match the kit exactly because of 'balance' reasons.
bullyboy wrote: Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality.
If that were true, wouldn't there be more variety, not less?
Not at all. With only 1 weapon type each model has to be different.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You can keep repeating that until the cows come home Kan, but I don't believe for a second that they changed the unit's options to match the kit exactly because of 'balance' reasons.
bullyboy wrote: Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality.
If that were true, wouldn't there be more variety, not less?
Not at all. With only 1 weapon type each model has to be different.
It's a shame varied weapon loadouts are near universally worthless when compared with standardized and mono-units.
The fact there's only one combi-plasma in the box (incidentally, the best combi-weapon there) should come as no surprise to anyone.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You can keep repeating that until the cows come home Kan, but I don't believe for a second that they changed the unit's options to match the kit exactly because of 'balance' reasons.
bullyboy wrote: Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality.
If that were true, wouldn't there be more variety, not less?
Not at all. With only 1 weapon type each model has to be different.
It's a shame varied weapon loadouts are near universally worthless when compared with standardized and mono-units.
The fact there's only one combi-plasma in the box (incidentally, the best combi-weapon there) should come as no surprise to anyone.
So having received my Vigilus Ablaze today and had a flick through, it might be my nativity but I expected the shadowspear units to be in there. I know I had the choice of codex or expansion, but the flowchart kinda indicated I wouldn't need the revised codex, when apparently I do.
Edit: Sorry I can carry a pdf extra ontop of it all when they could have just reprinted them in the updates rules.
Irbis wrote: Like what? Give the box only half of each weapon?
Nothing you post makes any sense. Maybe you should just stop?
Maybe it's just you? The argument made perfect sense: If you're forced to build each model with different loadouts because there's only one of each, that forces diversity. The point Irbis was making was that one of each weapon is the lowest you can go if your aim is to force diversity because something has to exist in order to be an option; we don't get half of a weapon in kits.
Do people really believe that GW would put small amounts of random weapons to *force diversity* and not more realistically to *sell more boxes*?
Because even people not playing competitive would rather equip their squad with the same weapons simply because having 5 different weapons doesn't make any sense and is actually bloody annoying to play.
"Let me make 5 different hit rolls and wound rolls for my MSU squad, ho wait I need to first check the various different weapons ranges to see who can hit what."
And if you think the price of a box is a direct consequences of the number/density of sprues, you are delusional.
bullyboy wrote: Ok, hear me out on this one, and it may alleviate some of the hostility toward GW regarding the terminators. Chaos and Imperium are different. Chaos warriors are extremely old and I'd expect each terminator is technically a character onto himself. Therefore, in GW eyes each terminator should be equipped differently to show this individuality. This is probably their thought process which unfortunately doesn't help more competitive players, but then again, people should know GW doesn't primarily cater to that crowd anyway.
So instead of having access to different kit for different jobs like the Imperium, they are more attached to a certain weapon loadout in a personal way.
The problem with this is chainaxes are the DEFAULT loadout. One of everything else I get, but one of the basic barebones option? Get fethed.
Just like the Eldar War Walker. Basic loadout is 2 Shurikens, but there's only one in the box.
I haven't seen the pricing for the new Terminator kit, but I'm probably just going to build up my Calth/Prospero Termies for my Chaos force. Those kits have a decent amount of options and I can kitbash anything else probably not too difficultly.
krakjen wrote: Do people really believe that GW would put small amounts of random weapons to *force diversity* and not more realistically to *sell more boxes*?
Because even people not playing competitive would rather equip their squad with the same weapons simply because having 5 different weapons doesn't make any sense and is actually bloody annoying to play.
"Let me make 5 different hit rolls and wound rolls for my MSU squad, ho wait I need to first check the various different weapons ranges to see who can hit what."
And if you think the price of a box is a direct consequences of the number/density of sprues, you are delusional.
Hate to say it but this makes no sense. People aren't going to buy 5 boxes of terms just to equip 5 dudes the way they want. That is not GWs reason to make the sprues this way. It would be delusional on their behalf.
krakjen wrote: Do people really believe that GW would put small amounts of random weapons to *force diversity* and not more realistically to *sell more boxes*?
Because even people not playing competitive would rather equip their squad with the same weapons simply because having 5 different weapons doesn't make any sense and is actually bloody annoying to play.
"Let me make 5 different hit rolls and wound rolls for my MSU squad, ho wait I need to first check the various different weapons ranges to see who can hit what."
And if you think the price of a box is a direct consequences of the number/density of sprues, you are delusional.
Hate to say it but this makes no sense. People aren't going to buy 5 boxes of terms just to equip 5 dudes the way they want. That is not GWs reason to make the sprues this way. It would be delusional on their behalf.
This isn't true, sadly I know of MANY folks that buy multiples of kits just so they can achieve one optimal load out.
The scalpers on eaby are going to have a field day. So far no one is parting out the kits, but thats normal this early. Gona be 5 bucks per chain axe So you would be better off buying multiple kits.
I think I am going to be odd and buy the old ones for cheaper while I can. The new terminators still have moronic proportions but at least the old kit is easily fixed by adding a small sphere of greenstuff under the body bits so they have a waist, then lowering the arms slightly. The new guys are solidly modled to their legs, good luck fixing stumpy.
krakjen wrote: Do people really believe that GW would put small amounts of random weapons to *force diversity* and not more realistically to *sell more boxes*?
Because even people not playing competitive would rather equip their squad with the same weapons simply because having 5 different weapons doesn't make any sense and is actually bloody annoying to play.
"Let me make 5 different hit rolls and wound rolls for my MSU squad, ho wait I need to first check the various different weapons ranges to see who can hit what."
And if you think the price of a box is a direct consequences of the number/density of sprues, you are delusional.
Hate to say it but this makes no sense. People aren't going to buy 5 boxes of terms just to equip 5 dudes the way they want. That is not GWs reason to make the sprues this way. It would be delusional on their behalf.
I was tempted to ask when being delusional has ever stopped GW, but I actually agree with you. Not because I think GW wouldn't try to wring extra sales out of deliberate bits shortage, which I'm inclined to think is the case with Havocs, but because everything about the Terminators strikes me as GW considering it a second rate box that's not worth the effort or expense to redo properly. The whole batch looks like they got their latest hire to prove themselves on an established design and only allowed for the barest budget necessary to get them on sprue. Even pricing them as they do seems like an attempt to get as much money out of the kit as possibly because they expect enough people already have all the Terminators they'll ever need and won't buy new ones. Might be a question of sprue budget for Chaos Marines in general, allowing them to redo Terminators along with releasing all the actual new stuff as long as they keep it cheap.
I have no trouble believing that with Chaos Terminators the designers actually thought having a wild mix of weapons in a single squad was desirable because it's so fluffy, as you mentioned earlier.
I just think the Terminator box could have a third sprue with many more weapons. That way it could have justified his price.
As it is know, is just a bad kit in relation price-value/variety/sprues, just like the Deathsroud terminators are horrible in that regard even if I have one kit because they are very cool, but they are three tiny character like sprues (?) for a elite unit.
One could say "Yeah but if they sold those three sprues separately they would cost 30€ each!"... yeah Sherlock. Because characters are characters, those are an elite unit.
Red Corsair wrote: The scalpers on eaby are going to have a field day. So far no one is parting out the kits, but thats normal this early. Gona be 5 bucks per chain axe
Galas wrote: I just think the Terminator box could have a third sprue with many more weapons. That way it could have justified his price.
As it is know, is just a bad kit in relation price-value/variety/sprues, just like the Deathsroud terminators are horrible in that regard even if I have one kit because they are very cool, but they are three tiny character like sprues (?) for a elite unit.
One could say "Yeah but if they sold those three sprues separately they would cost 30€ each!"... yeah Sherlock. Because characters are characters, those are an elite unit.
They seem to want to keep these kits on 2 sprues though. That said, have a look at the wolf guard terminator kit lol. They wasted too much space on this kit making the legs/bodies you have the same space it normally takes for 5 sets of legs and 5 bodies used on just one half of the body with one leg. So double that THEN add the second leg and that is the major reason this kit is so limited. It's also strange to me that they double the number of heads you get in the new kit, but halved the variety. Their is no ram or rhino head in there.
Silver lining is they managed to keep all the available options from the data sheet and actually added the sword in the kit meaning it's safe next time they update lol.
Red Corsair wrote: The scalpers on eaby are going to have a field day. So far no one is parting out the kits, but thats normal this early. Gona be 5 bucks per chain axe
I have purchased those FW chain axes, so I can personally attest to how garbage they are. They break as soon as you look at them, that's if they manage to get to you in tact with no errors.
Trying to make the kit work somewhat and looking at the poweraxe upgrade kti from forgeworld.
Problem is they are cataphractii so you'd have to cut of all the axes and then you'd still not have enough arms to make a complete default loadout...
So I tried just putting on the cataphractii arms, I mean, chaos do scrounge right?
could this work? Although I'm not sure where to get the combi bolter arms? seems to be only axes and special wepoins are sold seprately
The issue is, at least to me, you should not have to scrounge from other kits or buy from bits sellers just to get the basic loadouts. This is already a £35 (apply your local currency) kit with limited poseability and odd options, you should not be forced to buy other bits. Not everyone has a limitless bits box with countless options either. Recently GW has made some great kits and positive moves, but having such an iconic unit as Chaos Terminators basically be forced to have a Hodge podge of options straight from the box is daft.
This really wouldn't be a problem if GW sold special weapon upgrade packs, but no, they really want you to buy whole kits to get things, even if people would be more inclined to buy a $60 termi kit and a $20 upgrade than $120 of terminators.
Gael Knight wrote: Don't really think that's a solution consider the Cataphractii Terminators are even more expensive again, never mind buying resin chain axes.
If loyalists can get upgrades then why can't Chaos?
They have those kits from 3rd edition. That counts, right?
Gael Knight wrote: Don't really think that's a solution consider the Cataphractii Terminators are even more expensive again, never mind buying resin chain axes.
If loyalists can get upgrades then why can't Chaos?
The upgrades kits are a lot cheaper than buying 5 boxes and you don't need to buy cataphractii terminators for the axes +arms.
That said I can't find any bolter arms, so yea that would mean having to buy the actual terminators, at which point there is no point to the GW kit at all unless you REALLY like the aesthetics.
Having two different types of arms would look silly. sad times
For the loadout I used in the pic it looks like you would need to buy you're choce of forgeworld termies + some kti that has bolters+ the axes :(
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