The Chaos Lord from Blackstone Fortress is shown in the new codex and is described as a "Chaos Lord with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol". Probably means that model is getting a separate release as the new generic Chaos Lord model. Additionally, Thunder Hammers are now under the Melee Weapons list for Chaos, meaning a lot of characters and some units (like Chosen) can take them now!
Lord Discordant is well under 200 points, I think he's actually going to be worth it. Big target obviously, but T6 W12 2+ 5++ with access to all the usual defensive buffs isn't bad for the points, and quick maths says he hits harder than a Daemon Prince. Honestly, he seems like a better value Maulerfiend in the HQ slot; competition for both slots is going to be tough though, especially with the Dark Apostle and Master of Possessions being great choices now.
Arachnofiend wrote: Lord Discordant has a decent statline... for a heavy support model. Unless his offensive stats are comparative to a daemon prince and you can realistically run multiples I don't think he's going to get used.
The Lord Discordant hits like a truck in melee; it seems like he's supposed to push up with Maulerfiends and Venomcrawlers rather than sit back and babysit a daemon engine gunline. He makes 12 attacks on his top bracket as all of his weapons (except his Chainglaive) make bonus attacks in the same manner as Chainswords;
Weapon Skill 2+
4 Strength 6 AP-2 Damage 2 attacks, increasing to Strength 8 on the charge (Impaler Chainglaive)
2 Strength 4 AP-0 Damage 1 attacks (Mechatendrils)
5 Strength 7 AP-2 Damage D3 attacks (Bladed limbs and tail)
1 Strength 8 AP-4 Damage D3 attack that inflicts D3 mortal wounds on a Vehicle as long as the wound roll for the attack is successful when targeting a Vehicle (Techno-virus Injector)
Give him some form of re-rolls to-hit or wound, or slap on Veterans of the Long War, and he'll murder entire squads or your average vehicle pretty easily. He has a 12" move too but no Fly.
Yep, that's the kind of thing I wanted to see. Means I'll have to adjust my build plans to have two Lord Discordants instead of two Venom Crawlers, but I think I'm all right with that, hehe.
MinscS2 wrote: I want to like the Lord Discordant, but he'll never survive turn 1...
Run multiples He's not that expensive at all and he will absolutely carve up most things he touches.
Budget Terminators with Chainaxes and Combi-Bolters are now a thing and under 30 points per model, might be worth looking at especially with the Bolter Discipline rule in effect?
MinscS2 wrote: I want to like the Lord Discordant, but he'll never survive turn 1...
His weapons are strong enough that you should look at him as a daemon engine in his own right, not as a buffing HQ that the rest of your units rely on. If you're taking one, you should take more than one, and right now my issue is not "will he survive" and is instead "why would I take Maulerfiends for my Lord Discordant to buff when I just take more Lords instead".
MinscS2 wrote: I want to like the Lord Discordant, but he'll never survive turn 1...
Run multiples He's not that expensive at all and he will absolutely carve up most things he touches.
Budget Terminators with Chainaxes and Combi-Bolters are now a thing and under 30 points per model, might be worth looking at especially with the Bolter Discipline rule in effect?
MinscS2 wrote: I want to like the Lord Discordant, but he'll never survive turn 1...
Run multiples He's not that expensive at all and he will absolutely carve up most things he touches.
Budget Terminators with Chainaxes and Combi-Bolters are now a thing and under 30 points per model, might be worth looking at especially with the Bolter Discipline rule in effect?
Have Terminators dropped in points?
2, still more expensive then loyalist base body but Chainaxe + combi bolter for 3 pts makes them rather cheap now.
Caederes wrote: The Chaos Lord from Blackstone Fortress is shown in the new codex and is described as a "Chaos Lord with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol". Probably means that model is getting a separate release as the new generic Chaos Lord model. Additionally, Thunder Hammers are now under the Melee Weapons list for Chaos, meaning a lot of characters and some units (like Chosen) can take them now!
This is great news! I really like the concept of a chaos lord with hammer, but not enough to get a BL detachment just to run him.
I wonder if they nerf the cultists to make sure a separate traitorguard release have a strong selling point. (ofcourse fluffwise, it make good sense they dont get legion traits; centuries of specific training tactics dont translate well to traumatised hivescum with robes).
I wonder if they nerf the cultists to make sure a separate traitorguard release have a strong selling point. (ofcourse fluffwise, it make good sense they dont get legion traits; centuries of specific training tactics dont translate well to traumatised hivescum with robes).
Speaking for myself:
I think they're finally realizing that there are issues with regards to having these cheaper options in books and how it affects the 'vision' of the army. It's like how Brood Brothers in GSC work as their own unit now and the Detachment rules have been changed.
Hopefully it's a sign of things to come with Conscripts. Shame that Cultists got a points hike instead of drop though...but I think that would exacerbate the problem further.
Caederes wrote: The Chaos Lord from Blackstone Fortress is shown in the new codex and is described as a "Chaos Lord with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol". Probably means that model is getting a separate release as the new generic Chaos Lord model. Additionally, Thunder Hammers are now under the Melee Weapons list for Chaos, meaning a lot of characters and some units (like Chosen) can take them now!
This is great news! I really like the concept of a chaos lord with hammer, but not enough to get a BL detachment just to run him.
I was already planning on gluing the model onto a Disc of Tzeentch and running him as a Chaos Lord with a power maul so I'm definitely happy he'll get a legit thunder hammer instead.
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Oookay, that makes a lot more sense. Man, I really feel like three Lord Discordants is massively better than one with the heavy support daemon engines... something to think about, I suppose.
Arachnofiend wrote: Oookay, that makes a lot more sense. Man, I really feel like three Lord Discordants is massively better than one with the heavy support daemon engines... something to think about, I suppose.
no doubt. They hit pretty hard, but onky 12 wounds on a 5++ kinda kills it... and onlt T6, so even autocannons are wounding on 3s
T6 doesn't concern me too much, most people I see are picking their anti-tank weapons around the assumption that they're shooting at T8 so T6 really isn't meaningfully different from T7.
Arachnofiend wrote: T6 doesn't concern me too much, most people I see are picking their anti-tank weapons around the assumption that they're shooting at T8 so T6 really isn't meaningfully different from T7.
This is true. I face a lot of autocannons, so eh... i love the model though. Ill probably see what people come up with and maybe buy a couple down the road.
You wont spam him because he eats your HQ slots, and it looks like Chaos is going to need those on other support models. You could still do it, but it would be in a very specific build and I feel you miss out more then you gain.
1 lord discordant can be a real bitch to deal with given these leaks. You can spend 1 CP to give him every mark, so he can then get all three god specific powers caston him, have an apostle give him a further -1 to hit, have a MOP give him +1 invuln save. He heals himself D3+1 and can have a MOP heal him a further 3 (2 if he uses the discordant for the sacrifice wound) using the multi mark strat he can then use the nurgle strat for a FURTHER D3 regen meaning the dink can regen 10 wounds a turn in theory. All while being -3 to hit if alpha legion, Having a 3+ invuln anda 5+++ (using the multi mark ability and powers )
Thats a lot of singing parts, but even if 25% of that goes down this guy is a trap for anyone silly enough to waste shots on
Still no sign of the plastic sorcerer, or whoever has inherited his old backpack that we saw in the rumour engine yet - I think there's still more chaos characters to come.
And sorceror is the kind of character I could see in the start collecting set too.
So a scourge detachment to live with my thoisand sons might be worth taking! The relic plus overwatch on 5+ means they're not getting smashed in mele easily. Stick a couple of rotor cannons, oblits and the stargate. May be worthwhile!
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
Blobs of corsairs tiding? welll that is quite nice boost to regular CSM
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
Yes, I just saw the video. This is legit. But it does cost 3 cp. Red Corsairs are .... gonna be fun.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
Indeed, Red Corsairs confirmed Legion strength boys,
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
Indeed, Red Corsairs confirmed Legion strength boys,
OVERRUN THEM!
Huron says "bah, who runs mass cultists, I run ... mass CSM!"
Latro_ wrote: who'd of thought... in 8th ed you are probably gonna see squads of 20 chaos space marines
I imagine this to be rather nasty tbf, if it is indeed not limited, a Battalion can do this 2 x, with a 20 man block and it's equipment, that is 260 pts each time recycled and teleported.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
It's Chaos Space Marines. Are you really gonna run a unit of 20 CSM to get value out of this?
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
It's Chaos Space Marines. Are you really gonna run a unit of 20 CSM to get value out of this?
What speaks against this, the cheapest maximum value battalion for these shenanigans costs 500 pts.
I dunno, I'm still not buying it. Chaos has a LOT of other things you can do with those CP, and part of why Tide of Traitors worked in your favor was that at the time cultists were harder to kill than their points cost - forcing your opponent to overkill the unit so they won't have to deal with it again next turn was a win for you. CSM don't really have that luxury.
In other news, the Host Raptorial shockingly has some uses with its warlord trait. I think it's clearly way better for Warp Talons than it is for Raptors, which is a bit weird but eh.
xttz wrote: Did the the new oblit rules in the codex get PL6?
Allegedly yes, which is why people are thinking that shadowspear is probably correct. Also because they got a huge buff in stat line and abilities, and the unit wasn’t bad before. So having them be the same price for much better would be a little bit surprising.
But also I want that to happen because I want 9 of those new dudes, but at 115 per model it is not worth IMO
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Apologies for the awful formatting....
I was the original writer of this. Typed it up really quickly this morning, hence the poor formatting. By the time I got it all written I couldnt face going over it all again lol. Missed out a few things too but I got most of it....
So one thing I'm curious about... I haven't seen anyone mention anything about the Purge, Brazen Beasts, Scourged, and Flawless Host having keyword restrictions. Logically they should be tied to their respective deities in the same way World Eaters must be <Khorne>, but not making any specific restrictions means that you can use their rules to represent a variety of renegade chapters, which is nice.
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Apologies for the awful formatting....
I was the original writer of this. Typed it up really quickly this morning, hence the poor formatting. By the time I got it all written I couldnt face going over it all again lol. Missed out a few things too but I got most of it....
Thanks for writing this up! Questions if you know:
- Have terminators indeed dropped in points?
- How much are the new rotor cannon things?
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Apologies for the awful formatting....
I was the original writer of this. Typed it up really quickly this morning, hence the poor formatting. By the time I got it all written I couldnt face going over it all again lol. Missed out a few things too but I got most of it....
Thanks for writing this up! Questions if you know:
- Have terminators indeed dropped in points?
- How much are the new rotor cannon things?
Terminators have only dropped a bit because you can give them chainaxes and not the standard power weps/power fists.
From what I remember hearing, the new rotor cannons are about the same cost as a missile launcher I think.
BigBrown wrote: I find it pretty amusing how GW just keep looking for ways to make Cultists worse. Has there ever been a unit nerfed on three separate occasions within a year?
Commissars/conscripts?
Then there is 7th edition DW, they had 4 iterations of rules, each one worse than the last. And that was on top of complete lack of though on their mixed squads that made most of simple game actions illegal once they were anything but footsloggers...
Slowroll wrote: Havocs move and fire but are locked to 5 man squad size. Not sure I like that.
And there goes all my enthusiasm for this codex!
Wot?
Literally what, I am pretty sure most SM players would kill for devastators with T5 and relentless regardless of unit size.
Also, the CSM priest prayers look ridiculously strong, he is one of the best and most versatile buffers in the game now. Will clowns who complained about him repent now?
Lockark wrote: Of note don't they usely wait like 6+ months before releasing a Start Collecting for a updated army?
xttz wrote: Calling it now... April FAQ / Codex errata fixes them to 115pts, then CA 2019 drops them to ~105
Likely exactly how it happens. It annoys me though that I’m going to have to wait 2 weeks to pick up those oblits to know for sure. Hopefully GW addresses this sooner than that as it’s almost a doubling in price and totally not worth at 115 IMO.
Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):
I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.
Apologies for the awful formatting....
This is exactly why we say wait for the effin' book. +2 to charges for raptors....+2 move for daemon engines. Good god.
Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
That's not bad for a unit of 5 being 160 with chain axes and combis. Could be a cheap distraction unit or ablative wounds for a deepstriking character.
Arachnofiend wrote: Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it)
sorry WHAT?!
It's Chaos Space Marines. Are you really gonna run a unit of 20 CSM to get value out of this?
Quite possibly if I can get them +1 attack pretty easily. Still a lot to process though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Not +2 to charges for raptors. +2 to charges for warp talons.
...GW has gotta realize they designed raptors as a shooting unit eventually, right? Oh well, in the mean time we can enjoy Flawless Host Warp Talons having a reliable deep strike charge and obliterating anything they come in contact with.
The relic for that detachment is pretty funny, too. Unless I'm misunderstanding it you can pop it twice a turn, moving over them during your movement and then moving back to the other side during your charge phase.
Either way - 7 inch charge for guys that ignore overwatch - yes please.
Raptors actually have a better chance to get in, because they can take Icon of wrath if they are Khorne. So, 7 inch charge with a reroll on the charge ...
Raptors aren't going to do much of anything once they're in with their chainswords, though. Re-roll wounds is a damn good rule, a warp talon can punch quite a bit above its weight class in a way that raptors just can't replicate.
Hmmm, I supposed you can take a Khorne detachment and deep strike it in along with the Khorne warp talons. The Loci for Khorne gives a reroll to charge for all khorne daemons within 6 inches (which warp talons are). Its more inconvenient though.
Yes, they are expensive. But If you are taking a Khorne detachment of bloodletters, then I guess the warp talons can first charge in without fear of overwatch and tie up everything, and the blood letters can follow. Might be a case of overkill. Especially now that CSM can take 5 combi bolter+chain axe terminators. Maybe easier to just use those. They are at least more resilient than warp talons.
I got ten warp talons who has hardly ever seen any action though, so it would be fantastic if I could try them out.
Well chaincannon is definetly outrageous and it is not limited to Havoc only. Running it with 5-man CSM squad (Champ wtih Combi-bolter) is quite viable option.
And it just made basic heavy bolter obsolete unless it is very expensive or heavy bolter is very cheap.
This must be a new record low, I don't see one mention of the Emperor's Children in that article.
such a dribble of informaton. So frustrating. Seems sonic weapon profiles are back? or where they always? I've only played one game of 8th before shelving the game.
I want to do EC so much, but this told us nearly nothing based on my knowledge base.
I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
We pretty much know we are getting World Eaters and Emperors Children books sometime this edition. Why paint up the generic CSM models when they know they have some zany Emperors Children specific ones to show off in the coming months.
Heck Im more disappointing that the Khorne article had the classic Khorne Bezerkers in it since that means no new kit for at least a bit longer.
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
Understandable. Maybe the Heldrake head will fit comfortably?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, to be fair, if we want shooty CSM, its basically slanaash CSM, and Emperor's children are the poster boy for slanaash CSM.
eh. Previously, just the noise marines, and maybe not even then. EC are better as close combat specialists thanks to always fight first, as it lets you effectively 'cheat' every combat phase. Like most marine armies, you want to dump the basics for the Effective-at-killing stuff, but it can be quite effective.
The new havocs wont care if they're emperors children or not. It has no meaningful effect
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, to be fair, if we want shooty CSM, its basically slanaash CSM, and Emperor's children are the poster boy for slanaash CSM.
eh. Previously, just the noise marines, and maybe not even then. EC are better as close combat specialists thanks to always fight first, as it lets you effectively 'cheat' every combat phase. Like most marine armies, you want to dump the basics for the Effective-at-killing stuff, but it can be quite effective.
The new havocs wont care if they're emperors children or not. It has no meaningful effect
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
Use the Baleflamer instead. For a model that wants to get up close, the Autocannon loses appeal.
Also for the complaints about Havocs and the new squad size...really?
Nobody was running them in a large number anyway, and for just a point more a model they now have T5 and old Relentless. What's the problem exactly?
Yea I was talking about the model itself. Would have to incorporate the flamer into the mouth of the mount or so I guess to stay wysiwyg, but having a big gun on a combat mount just looks weird and out of place to me.
Understandable. Maybe the Heldrake head will fit comfortably?
The Helstalker already has a choice of weapons for its mouth...
Oh boy that Emperor Children article was a let down!
Not even a word about Slaanesh deamon like they did
with the World Eaters and Khorne deamons,
nothing on sonic weapons?!
Just hoping for a codex later on the road with a proper Slaanesh release
but I sure feel disapointed.
I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, to be fair, if we want shooty CSM, its basically slanaash CSM, and Emperor's children are the poster boy for slanaash CSM.
eh. Previously, just the noise marines, and maybe not even then. EC are better as close combat specialists thanks to always fight first, as it lets you effectively 'cheat' every combat phase. Like most marine armies, you want to dump the basics for the Effective-at-killing stuff, but it can be quite effective.
The new havocs wont care if they're emperors children or not. It has no meaningful effect
Did ya just forget about Endless Cacophony or
Just don't care very much, there are lots of ways to spend CP.
Juggling 5 man squads so that losing 1 wound models doesn't cost you 16 shots each doesn't seem worthwhile. T5 or not, the firepower people would be building around for that stratagem is easy to simply erase from the board, especially since they have be within 24".
Sir Heckington wrote: I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
They gave the army 4 or 5 distinct ways to build using new characters and multiple avenues of buffs that can be combined.
So if I'm reading this right we get the following for the dark apostle ( and other future priests)?
default = re-roll all hits in the fight phase
1: -1 to hit a unit with ranged
2: 2d6 , keep highest for morale checks within 6"
3: +3A, -4 AP for all melee on the priest
4: +1 to hit for a friendly unit with ranged attacks
5: +1 to wound with melee attacks for a friendly unit
6: 5++ within 6"
Khorne: +2S for the priest
Tzeentch: Priest regains D3 lost wounds?
Nurgle: +2T for priest
Slaanesh: priest can advance and charge
Here's a summary of the fluff in the Vigilus book, for anyone interested. Any complaints should probably be in spoiler brackets, since not everyone wants to know what happens just yet.
mortar_crew wrote: Oh boy that Emperor Children article was a let down!
Not even a word about Slaanesh deamon like they did
with the World Eaters and Khorne deamons,
nothing on sonic weapons?!
Just hoping for a codex later on the road with a proper Slaanesh release
but I sure feel disapointed.
I'm honestly long past the point of being disappointed when it comes to Emperor's Children. But...hey, they did confirm that the old resin Noise Marine upgrade kit is still compatible with the new CSM kit. As a lover of all things Slaaneshi I'm happy that at least the Flawless Host got some nice characterful rules. However, they should have kept Advance and Charge; not the Red Corsairs. Since all their unique rules revolve around melee! Also Vigilus Ablaze apparently mention at least two named Keeper's of Secrets owning Sororitas and Drukari; so hopefully the new model is on its way with a plastic Herald or two.
Sir Heckington wrote: I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
Oh please, nobody was running Bolter Havocs. Also what's not fun about the Renegade Traits? Granted that Crimson Slaughter could've been better...
Sir Heckington wrote: I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
Oh please, nobody was running Bolter Havocs. Also what's not fun about the Renegade Traits? Granted that Crimson Slaughter could've been better...
Ah well, gonna have to put my bolter havocs away then... Not all of us play the game competitively you know.
They just don't seem all that fun to play with, but I might be wrong there, though I'm mostly going off the CSM one.
So... does anyone think that running something like Huron's new "traitor 17" or whatever but with one bulked out Marine squad is going to be really obnoxious esp. at any small game size but potentially at large ones? 'Cause, it's the first thing I thought of when seeing that.
I mean, I know larger squads is out of fashion these days, but 15-20 Marines that you need to wipe out or they can be recycled, with a detachment that can recycle them up to 4 times, seems pretty strong. Even a basic 10 man unit with triple plasma, that you can redeploy wherever and it can hold objectives, seems like a way bigger thorn for 3 CP than a one-time cultist blob respawn for 2, in the context of a faction that provides extra CP.
People need o stop making claims that nobody plays a certain way. It's just false. Havocs were never hyper competitive and when I did see them, I saw plenty of players taking ablative wounds.
That said, gaining a point of toughness and being able to redeploy from hidden deployment and fire to full affect more then makes up for it and you get to save points. If it really bugs you that much just take normal CSM units that are 10 strong with 2 heavys.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
spiralingcadaver wrote: So... does anyone think that running something like Huron's new "traitor 17" or whatever but with one bulked out Marine squad is going to be really obnoxious esp. at any small game size but potentially at large ones? 'Cause, it's the first thing I thought of when seeing that.
I mean, I know larger squads is out of fashion these days, but 15-20 Marines that you need to wipe out or they can be recycled, with a detachment that can recycle them up to 4 times, seems pretty strong. Even a basic 10 man unit with triple plasma, that you can redeploy wherever and it can hold objectives, seems like a way bigger thorn for 3 CP than a one-time cultist blob respawn for 2, in the context of a faction that provides extra CP.
It's not even remotely broken, marines still die pretty easily and the strat is 3cp. It's situationally a big deal, and it forces your opponent to really think before targeting that unit, since he is going to want to finish it off. But, even if he fails your looking at 2 CP to auto pass and another 3 to come back.
yea i'm not complaining owning many havocs it does not 'feel' right they are t5 but if they are 14pts each that is only 2 off a plague marine who has a 5fnp
the chain guns are nasty.... 2 units of 5 jumping out a rhino with EC thats 96 heavy bolter shots! crazy
Brutus_Apex wrote: I don’t want to complain about a buff, especially for Chaos Marines, but does it bother anyone else immensely that havocs are now toughness 5?
Like, can I just have a small amount of consistency across the board here. I hate it when GW does this.
Sure but then if there is one thing GW is consistent at, it's being inconsistent...
What bothers me about the havoc is their champion.
To me that is one of the coolest new models and a painful reminder that we STILL don't have chosen models.
That dude looks way more badass than he as any right to be lol.
Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if cultists loose the the legion keyword , you can't even use stratagems anymore as the detachment you add them to is no longer comprised of only <legion> models.
Here's a summary of the fluff in the Vigilus book, for anyone interested. Any complaints should probably be in spoiler brackets, since not everyone wants to know what happens just yet.
Thanks for the link. It's very predictable in that plot armor reigns supreme and ultimately disappointing as it's no more definitive than an episode of Scooby Doo. I've spoilered the post below for the link click adverse.
Spoiler:
The Chaos invasion is at first overwhelming, but clever use of ceding ground to the orks, genestealers, etc means that Calgar is able to pit his foes against one another and slow them down, at the cost of the planet being less salvageable should they somehow win.
- The Vengeful spirit and accompanying chaos fleet are absolutely decimating the Imperial navy, but it's still not quite enough. As a result Abaddon makes a deal with the Fallen (who are hiding in the swirl, as they have a fortress city in there, hence why the Dark Angels were always looking at it in book 1) and they activate a gravity weapon-esque thing called the voidclaw that messes with all the ships in orbit. The chaos navy knew it was coming and had positioned themselves accordingly, but the Imperials are shredded by it and Chaos now has overwhelming naval superiority.
- Calgar realises that he's stuffed and his promise to Guilliman will be unfulfilled if things keep progressing at this rate, so he hatches a plan. Thing is, he ideally needs some eldar friends if this plan is going to work, so he goes to the angry Saim Hann lot and after fighting his way through to them and surrounding them, manages to hold a successful parlay.
- The plan is basically "Take an aeldari ship, because they're stealthy to avoid radar, and have psykers to avoid the black legion's sorcerers' "psychic radar", fill it with a bunch of deathstrike missiles and ram the vengeful spirit like a fire ship, making Francis Drake proud."
- While this plan is going on, Abaddon and Calgar + their respective bodyguards have their duel. Calgar is trying to draw it out, and this is ok at the start, but eventually the superiority of Abaddon's wargear is really what does it, and Calgar gets sliced open, with his primary heart completely caput and his secondary one with a big dent in it. Just as Abaddon is about to finish him, Haarken gets word that the Vengeful Spirit is in trouble, and Abaddon falls back, which really pisses off his very thirsty sword.
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
- Calgar survives his grevious wounds, but is no longer able to fight on the front, instead directing everything from his apothecarion bed. Vigilus is still absolutely boned, but it's not quite over yet.
ScarletRose wrote: So status quo, nothing really gets accomplished and Abby wastes a bunch more resources?
Why not just call it 14th Black Crusade at this point?
Because
Spoiler:
It sounds like it's leading up to a third book from the reddit post where RobbyG comes back like a dad trying to find the bully that beat up his son. That's just my opinion though as I don't have any inside sources nor have I even read the actual book but rather just the post. Salt as needed to taste.
The Necrons being referenced as conquering planets off screen is both very funny and kinda sad considering the faction has been left out of the Vigilus story completely.
"And thus the Eldar holdings fell to the conquering Overlord, the great and terrible Nemesor Not-Appearing-In-This-Adventure."
The Necrons being referenced as conquering planets off screen is both very funny and kinda sad considering the faction has been left out of the Vigilus story completely.
"And thus the Eldar holdings fell to the conquering Overlord, the great and terrible Nemesor Not-Appearing-In-This-Adventure."
i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
Thanks for the link. It's very predictable in that plot armor reigns supreme and ultimately disappointing as it's no more definitive than an episode of Scooby Doo.
Not sure why you're surprised that 40K plot development follows Saturday morning cartoon rules. They have to reset the story at the end of the episode in order to keep selling the same action figures.
The Necrons being referenced as conquering planets off screen is both very funny and kinda sad considering the faction has been left out of the Vigilus story completely.
"And thus the Eldar holdings fell to the conquering Overlord, the great and terrible Nemesor Not-Appearing-In-This-Adventure."
Yeah, it does feel like a cheap sitcom cameo where the Fonz just shows up, gives the main characters the double thumbs up and an "eeeeeeyyyyy...", the crowd cheers, and he leaves after minor unimportant plot point #6 is resolved. The battle described basically reads to me like an 80's under the table holiday action figure fight where your Lion-O is just about to defeat He Man and his temporary ally Cobra Commander (who ended up in the toy bag brought over by accident) but Voltron came in to save the day and maintain the status quo. I think I'm just personally expecting too much from a supposedly mainstream wide age range targeted product debuting expensive brand new figures. I just keep hoping that just one of these main GW campaign ends up more like one of the (good) FW campaign books. Those are instead aimed towards an older even more niche crowd that doesn't expect or mind if their new character/fig bites suffers real consequences in the same book as he or she is introduced. Would it kill GW to take an old 2nd tier special character that they don't currently plan on updating for the next 5 years and actually kill them off on screen/page? Does every hero have to survive the century surrounding the great cataclysm that supposedly rendered the Great Imperium of Man in twain? I know some are just missing like iirc Sicarius with their fates unknown because they don't have room in the codex or in the production queue for a new model but that doesn't count.
Thanks for the link. It's very predictable in that plot armor reigns supreme and ultimately disappointing as it's no more definitive than an episode of Scooby Doo.
Not sure why you're surprised that 40K plot development follows Saturday morning cartoon rules. They have to reset the story at the end of the episode in order to keep selling the same action figures.
I was typing pretty much the same thing simultaneously (see above).
Kirasu wrote: i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
They also forget that those ships are equipped with powerful voidshields.
Thanks for the link. It's very predictable in that plot armor reigns supreme and ultimately disappointing as it's no more definitive than an episode of Scooby Doo.
Not sure why you're surprised that 40K plot development follows Saturday morning cartoon rules. They have to reset the story at the end of the episode in order to keep selling the same action figures.
You just got to read the introductions to the various legions, they're not exactly nuanced.
The Necrons being referenced as conquering planets off screen is both very funny and kinda sad considering the faction has been left out of the Vigilus story completely.
"And thus the Eldar holdings fell to the conquering Overlord, the great and terrible Nemesor Not-Appearing-In-This-Adventure."
It'd be so easy to just say "oh yeah and Vigilus system's 8th planet was a tomb world or whatever, so yeah. Necrons!!!!"
I really like the new Dark Apostle - even though the whole mechanic of "He knows prayer X and one prayer of the dark gods, the same prayer can only be chanted once per battle round regardless of how many Apostles your army contains" feels very similar to psychic powers - that can't be denied.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
Guess it's abou if the chant is heared by the gods or not. Not if he is actually capable of chanting.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
Guess it's abou if the chant is heared by the gods or not. Not if he is actually capable of chanting.
Khorne could be listening out for the microwave ping instead
The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
new apostle seems to not carry a power maul now ... it has a new name instead and seems to be +1 ap-1 d2 ... so you hitting on s5 instead of s6 ... with khorne is s7
MinscS2 wrote: I really like the new Dark Apostle - even though the whole mechanic of "He knows prayer X and one prayer of the dark gods, the same prayer can only be chanted once per battle round regardless of how many Apostles your army contains" feels very similar to psychic powers - that can't be denied.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
Maybe there is a way of getting an extra prayer off, if only once or so?
Even then, the prayer that makes it easier to wound is pretty much the same functionally and applies to everybody so...uh...dunno
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
Guess it's abou if the chant is heared by the gods or not. Not if he is actually capable of chanting.
Khorne could be listening out for the microwave ping instead
I go out on a limb and say khorne is probably the god that will listen the least.
Well since his prayer is fighting, in essence khorne does want to eat his khorneflakes undisturbed.
The lore is about as bad as I expected. GW's studio writers are awful.
Super pleased about some of these rules though, even if I'm mildly concerned that Word Bearers will no longer be able to give their Cursed Crozius to an actual Dark Apostle as he no longer wields a power maul.
Sir Heckington wrote: I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
Oh please, nobody was running Bolter Havocs. Also what's not fun about the Renegade Traits? Granted that Crimson Slaughter could've been better...
the crimson slaughter one is second only to red corsairs! they're not limited to 1cp per round, because the refund doesn't come from a stratagem or refund points from a stratagem, so they can potentially gain 1 cp each time they kill an enemy unit. Go face Tau with 10's of small units of drone and pathfinder, and you'll find the CS to be really good I think!
Sir Heckington wrote: I have to ask what this new codex is fixing? CSM 2.0 codex with Vigilus doesn't look anymore fun to play than the old codex.
The traits, even the new renegade ones, look largely unfun and or useless.
Base chaos space marines still suck, cultists have been kicked in the balls multiple times.
Havocs being T5 with Relentless and not having my bolter dudes just feels... off (Gonna have to find something to do with those guys)
What can take thunder hammers is weird, no champions or termie's for it?
Marks still do nothing (Although this is a personal thing, but I really want my marks of old, including one for undivided)
This just feels low effort, like GW didn't actually make an attempt to fix the codex and make it fun, granted the new rules are good, the codex just seems to be missing something.
Oh please, nobody was running Bolter Havocs. Also what's not fun about the Renegade Traits? Granted that Crimson Slaughter could've been better...
the crimson slaughter one is second only to red corsairs! they're not limited to 1cp per round, because the refund doesn't come from a stratagem or refund points from a stratagem, so they can potentially gain 1 cp each time they kill an enemy unit. Go face Tau with 10's of small units of drone and pathfinder, and you'll find the CS to be really good I think!
A lot of Tactical Restraint sounds like you are right, but there is one sentence which imho disallows it:
In matched play games, each player can only gain or have refunded a total of one Command Point per battle round as the result of such rules, regardless of the source.
Kirasu wrote: i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
They also forget that those ships are equipped with powerful voidshields.
BFG rules: Ramming damage is not deflected by shields.
Any damage inflicted in BFG has a chance to cause critical hits, and some of those critical hits can inflict additional damage. Bulkhead Collapse for example inflicts an additiona +D6 damage. For comparison, an Emperor class battleship has 12 Damage points and losing half cripples a ship in BFG.
So can imagine the ram inflicting at least 1 point of damage, then a critical hit for 6 Damage. 7 total Damage at least. Unlikely? Yes, but not impossible. A Gloriana class might have more than 12 Damage points but even so, such a massive hit would be likely to lead to withdrawal, rather than risk its crippling or loss.
mortar_crew wrote: Oh boy that Emperor Children article was a let down!
Not even a word about Slaanesh deamon like they did
with the World Eaters and Khorne deamons,
nothing on sonic weapons?!
Just hoping for a codex later on the road with a proper Slaanesh release
but I sure feel disapointed.
What I don't understand is why they state you would need to stockpile the noise marine upgrade kits.
I assume they aren't going anywhere, anytime soon? Likely a marketing trick or just vehement article gusto. Oh look at that big pile of straws in my hand.
MinscS2 wrote: The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
You think Khorne cares for your chants? Ha! Khorne is a god of action not words! Most of his champions have never even prayed to him before. They have no tongue for it...
You use the (freebie) +2S one because, imagine, that you chose another prayer for your apostle: but oh no, he's the last guy standing and wants to wallop something! He woulda loved that +3A prayer, but he took +1 invuln one instead. That kinda thing.
Are the renagade traits in the codex?
Are the warlord traits/relics of the renagades in the codex?
Or is it just vigilus 2?
Just Vigilus 2. All the new models, detachments, and traits are in Vigilus not the new chaos marine dex. Unless you are starting the army fresh there is no reason to get the updated dex but every reason to get Vigilus 2.
Blog for the blood God made a fun combo with alpha legion a prayer and nurgle miasma you can fairly easily make a unit impossible to hit for the likes of guard and umbuffed tau on a -3 to hit
Kirasu wrote: i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
They also forget that those ships are equipped with powerful voidshields.
BFG rules: Ramming damage is not deflected by shields.
Any damage inflicted in BFG has a chance to cause critical hits, and some of those critical hits can inflict additional damage. Bulkhead Collapse for example inflicts an additiona +D6 damage. For comparison, an Emperor class battleship has 12 Damage points and losing half cripples a ship in BFG.
So can imagine the ram inflicting at least 1 point of damage, then a critical hit for 6 Damage. 7 total Damage at least. Unlikely? Yes, but not impossible. A Gloriana class might have more than 12 Damage points but even so, such a massive hit would be likely to lead to withdrawal, rather than risk its crippling or loss.
In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.
But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.
MinscS2 wrote: I really like the new Dark Apostle - even though the whole mechanic of "He knows prayer X and one prayer of the dark gods, the same prayer can only be chanted once per battle round regardless of how many Apostles your army contains" feels very similar to psychic powers - that can't be denied.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
Maybe there is a way of getting an extra prayer off, if only once or so?
Even then, the prayer that makes it easier to wound is pretty much the same functionally and applies to everybody so...uh...dunno
Good point, that makes even less sense.
+2 Str on self is never a better choice than +1 to wound on self (or on a friendly unit within 6".)
At best it does the same thing but with restrictions. At worst it does nothing.
"But if you already have that prayer on a different Apostle?"
Then pick something else...
To some people's disappointment about it feeling like a Scooby Doo episode:
Spoiler:
Calgar couldn't have died, they just released a new model for him for $100. If he then died a month or 2 later I feel like that would be utterly hilariously ridiculous, so not sure what people were expecting.
If he hadn't had a new figure though then I would think he'd die.
Also, as a side note:
Spoiler:
With the war in Vigilus not over, that means the next campaign book could finally introduce the Blood Angels where Dante comes in Primarised or, my theory, Dante is killed by Horus' talon and is made into a rebirthed Sanguinius.
There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Tiberius501 wrote: To some people's disappointment about it feeling like a Scooby Doo episode:
Spoiler:
Calgar couldn't have died, they just released a new model for him for $100. If he then died a month or 2 later I feel like that would be utterly hilariously ridiculous, so not sure what people were expecting.
If he hadn't had a new figure though then I would think he'd die.
]
I actually addressed that in my post (and I'm the one who called it a Scooby Doo episode so I assume you're referring to me).
Spoiler:
They could have killed off a second or third tier character like Telion or Cassius for example to put some finality or gravitas on the situation.
I'm very annoyed by the rotor cannon thingy being pretty much as strong as 3 heavy bolter. WHY GW WHY? Between that and the Kellermorph pistols, stats power creep…
warboss wrote: think I'm just personally expecting too much from a supposedly mainstream wide age range targeted product debuting expensive brand new figures. I just keep hoping that just one of these main GW campaign ends up more like one of the (good) FW campaign books.
The problem with GW campaigns is that unlike Forge World, who understands right that 40k is a setting, one in which there are thousands of different chapters, regiments, and all. So Forge World creates bespoke characters and factions for their stories, work up to make us care for them, and give us a real ending that doesn't have to go back to the status quo. GW is really dumb (or really good at giving people what they want and most 40k fans have terrible ideas, idk) and think of 40k as a story (it's not, or at least not a good one) rather than a setting. So they take already established factions (easier, you don't have to work to make us care for them), existing characters (thousands of thousands of world but everyone is always the same, gakky smallworld stuff) and have to go back to the status quo. With extra added “story advancement” where they force those same smallworld stupid characters to make stuff that have galaxy-wide effects, which is anathema to the settings.
Bad GW!
Roknar wrote: I could see myself using the lord discordant as a replacement for a juggerlord.
maybe minus thje autocannon on the model, that thing looks a bit ridiculous.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Imagine though if it was Horus' talon that strikes down Dante and rebirths Sanguinius' spirit or something. The same weapon that was used to kill Sanguinius brings him back in the wake of another dead Blood Angel hero. Dat drama tho. It won't happen haha, Dante will just get Primarised if anything, but I think it'd be cool.
But it would also spit in the face of other people who should get their primarchs over Sanguinius so I agree there. Definitely should be Russ or Lion or any of the others hinted to return over a legitimately dead one.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Imagine though if it was Horus' talon that strikes down Dante and rebirths Sanguinius' spirit or something. The same weapon that was used to kill Sanguinius brings him back in the wake of another dead Blood Angel hero. Dat drama tho. It won't happen haha, Dante will just get Primarised if anything, but I think it'd be cool.
But it would also spit in the face of other people who should get their primarchs over Sanguinius so I agree there. Definitely should be Russ or Lion or any of the others hinted to return over a legitimately dead one.
It’d be kinda cool for a character to be reborn via soul transferral from the weapon that killed/mortally wounded them.
It’s been speculated that the sword Cypher carries is actually the sword Luther used to wound The Lion and it contains his soul.... you might be onto something.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Imagine though if it was Horus' talon that strikes down Dante and rebirths Sanguinius' spirit or something. The same weapon that was used to kill Sanguinius brings him back in the wake of another dead Blood Angel hero. Dat drama tho. It won't happen haha, Dante will just get Primarised if anything, but I think it'd be cool.
But it would also spit in the face of other people who should get their primarchs over Sanguinius so I agree there. Definitely should be Russ or Lion or any of the others hinted to return over a legitimately dead one.
It’d be kinda cool for a character to be reborn via soul transferral from the weapon that killed/mortally wounded them.
It’s been speculated that the sword Cypher carries is actually the sword Luther used to wound The Lion and it contains his soul.... you might be onto something.
... I can already see it...
Dante comes from the other side of the rift onto the vengeful spirit, stuff happens, he gets impaled on one of the crystalline status and he basically dies... BUT WAIT, the blood of his son awakens the statue and basically supercharges dante and turns him into sanginius reborn, except he' still dante but now all superpowered and abaddon has to retreat into the warp, cursing that he'll get them next time !!
Tiberius501 wrote: To some people's disappointment about it feeling like a Scooby Doo episode:
Spoiler:
Calgar couldn't have died, they just released a new model for him for $100. If he then died a month or 2 later I feel like that would be utterly hilariously ridiculous, so not sure what people were expecting.
If he hadn't had a new figure though then I would think he'd die.
]
I actually addressed that in my post (and I'm the one who called it a Scooby Doo episode so I assume you're referring to me).
Spoiler:
They could have killed off a second or third tier character like Telion or Cassius for example to put some finality or gravitas on the situation.
Sorry, I wasn't referring purely to you, but yes that would've made it better, I agree.
MinscS2 wrote: I really like the new Dark Apostle - even though the whole mechanic of "He knows prayer X and one prayer of the dark gods, the same prayer can only be chanted once per battle round regardless of how many Apostles your army contains" feels very similar to psychic powers - that can't be denied.
Not necessarily bad, but I don't get why they have a chance to fail in the first place. In the grim future where there is only war, Dark Apostles often suffer from bouts of sudden voicecracks?
The Khorne-chant seems very odd (read: bad) however. When is +2 Str a better pick than +3 A +3 AP? Meh.
Maybe there is a way of getting an extra prayer off, if only once or so?
Even then, the prayer that makes it easier to wound is pretty much the same functionally and applies to everybody so...uh...dunno
Good point, that makes even less sense.
+2 Str on self is never a better choice than +1 to wound on self (or on a friendly unit within 6".)
At best it does the same thing but with restrictions. At worst it does nothing.
"But if you already have that prayer on a different Apostle?"
Then pick something else...
The only way I could see it is if you have the possibility of an extra prayer and you get the extra attack + strength AND another apostle buffs that guy with easier wounds.
So.....never lol. Wait, no not even then. At that point a sorcerer would be better to add + strength AND an attack instead of another apostle.
I can't even think of a hypothetical situation were it would be useful.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I'm very annoyed by the rotor cannon thingy being pretty much as strong as 3 heavy bolter. WHY GW WHY? Between that and the Kellermorph pistols, stats power creep…
warboss wrote: think I'm just personally expecting too much from a supposedly mainstream wide age range targeted product debuting expensive brand new figures. I just keep hoping that just one of these main GW campaign ends up more like one of the (good) FW campaign books.
The problem with GW campaigns is that unlike Forge World, who understands right that 40k is a setting, one in which there are thousands of different chapters, regiments, and all. So Forge World creates bespoke characters and factions for their stories, work up to make us care for them, and give us a real ending that doesn't have to go back to the status quo. GW is really dumb (or really good at giving people what they want and most 40k fans have terrible ideas, idk) and think of 40k as a story (it's not, or at least not a good one) rather than a setting. So they take already established factions (easier, you don't have to work to make us care for them), existing characters (thousands of thousands of world but everyone is always the same, gakky smallworld stuff) and have to go back to the status quo. With extra added “story advancement” where they force those same smallworld stupid characters to make stuff that have galaxy-wide effects, which is anathema to the settings.
Bad GW!
Indeed. What they refuse to admit is that not every character model needs to be in the codex to be considered as "supported". A simple PDF with fair and flavorful statting (not just a pump and dump to get it out the door to check off a box) is all that it needs. No art, no fancy new fluff... just the rules. And with that they could sell the model and use the character in a self contained meaningful way if they wanted to. Instead, we get plastic kits for everyone that need to last for 10 years on average so they can't negatively affect the character in any way... only buff (as with PriMarneus Calgar).
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I'm very annoyed by the rotor cannon thingy being pretty much as strong as 3 heavy bolter. WHY GW WHY? Between that and the Kellermorph pistols, stats power creep…
warboss wrote: think I'm just personally expecting too much from a supposedly mainstream wide age range targeted product debuting expensive brand new figures. I just keep hoping that just one of these main GW campaign ends up more like one of the (good) FW campaign books.
The problem with GW campaigns is that unlike Forge World, who understands right that 40k is a setting, one in which there are thousands of different chapters, regiments, and all. So Forge World creates bespoke characters and factions for their stories, work up to make us care for them, and give us a real ending that doesn't have to go back to the status quo. GW is really dumb (or really good at giving people what they want and most 40k fans have terrible ideas, idk) and think of 40k as a story (it's not, or at least not a good one) rather than a setting. So they take already established factions (easier, you don't have to work to make us care for them), existing characters (thousands of thousands of world but everyone is always the same, gakky smallworld stuff) and have to go back to the status quo. With extra added “story advancement” where they force those same smallworld stupid characters to make stuff that have galaxy-wide effects, which is anathema to the settings.
Bad GW!
Right, its a massive philosophical difference in story telling. GW wants to cram as many characters (with models) and factions (with new expensive models) into every single story possible because a decent percentage of GW gamers love when they’re favorite faction is mentioned. It has almost nothing to do with crafting a coherent story as I think most of us understand that it makes no damn sense that EVERYONE is always on a single planet, lol.
FW campaign books are the gold standard and one of the few places where 40k lore is still taken seriously.
I wouldn't go that far myself. People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc). Special rules sell models and I'm ok with that as long as they're fair and balanced properly. What we don't need is every single character to be alive in the setting at the exact timeframe that the setting is currently in. Maybe I had a very forgiving group of players in 3rd edition but no one ever complained that Macharius was in an IG army because he died in the fluff centuries earlier or later that someone had the temerity to use Sergeant Culln or Lysander centuries to a millenium after they were captains or a chapter master (or maybe even a dreadnought now).
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
I might be expecting to much from GW but you're definitely expecting too much from the playerbase, lol.
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
Yep. always liked this much better than having every army led by some special characters
Kirasu wrote: i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
They also forget that those ships are equipped with powerful voidshields.
BFG rules: Ramming damage is not deflected by shields.
Any damage inflicted in BFG has a chance to cause critical hits, and some of those critical hits can inflict additional damage. Bulkhead Collapse for example inflicts an additiona +D6 damage. For comparison, an Emperor class battleship has 12 Damage points and losing half cripples a ship in BFG.
So can imagine the ram inflicting at least 1 point of damage, then a critical hit for 6 Damage. 7 total Damage at least. Unlikely? Yes, but not impossible. A Gloriana class might have more than 12 Damage points but even so, such a massive hit would be likely to lead to withdrawal, rather than risk its crippling or loss.
In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.
But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.
BFG is relevant as that is the only GW system portraying space combat, so what is or is not reasonable within BFG is a yardstick since we do not have RL ships like 40K to compare against.
The Damage capacity of ships in 40K does not scale linearly or in line with the dimensions of the ship. An Imperial battleship has 12 Damage while a cruiser has 8 yet the battleship is twice as long. The Planet Killer, so big that its construction was thought by the Imperium to have only been possible within the warp space overlap in the Eye, only had 14 Damage. Clearly there seems to be a point of diminishing return. Therefore there is no reason to suppose a Gloriana would have a dramatically different Damage capacity. That is simply famboyism. It sounds like someone does not know their 40K space background.
This is even before examination about the potential effect of that deathstrike warhead. Special torpedo munitions in BFG can cause automatic critical hits, so that Deathstrike warhead could have produced equivalent results to a vortex torpedo hit.
So whatever else might be said about the Vigilus writing, the withdrawal of Abaddon’s flagship is not that far fetched, especially given the symbolism of that ship and the immense prestige loss if it should be destroyed. Also it is consistent with the BFG background, where many ship engagements were fought to disengagement not to the total destruction of one ship. While one might complain about why then to suffer a devastating critical hit, it is not impossible, just as it is possible to lose a character in a 40K game in a single hit due to a series of bad rolls.
Kirasu wrote: i think the writers didnt do their research on what a Gloriana Class starship is...
Spoiler:
- Sure enough, the plan worked, with the Imperial Navy's remaining ships trying to open up a path for the Aeldari (there's a funny little bit here about how they dragged so many ships for this attack away from other planets that the Necrons, etc just took them) and the Eldar managed to ram the Vengeful spirit, ripping a whopping great big hole in it. The ship is very nearly dead, but manages to pull off an emergency warp translation (and therefore will probably be fixed up and fine by the time the writers need it as a plot device), but this hands naval superiority/equality at least back to the Imperium.
I know GW has to fit as many copywritten units/weapons into a story as possible, ut a deathstrike missile is a battlefield weapon, not a naval weapon and an Eldar ship is incredibly tiny. The Vengeful Spirit is something like ELEVEN miles long!
They also forget that those ships are equipped with powerful voidshields.
BFG rules: Ramming damage is not deflected by shields.
Any damage inflicted in BFG has a chance to cause critical hits, and some of those critical hits can inflict additional damage. Bulkhead Collapse for example inflicts an additiona +D6 damage. For comparison, an Emperor class battleship has 12 Damage points and losing half cripples a ship in BFG.
So can imagine the ram inflicting at least 1 point of damage, then a critical hit for 6 Damage. 7 total Damage at least. Unlikely? Yes, but not impossible. A Gloriana class might have more than 12 Damage points but even so, such a massive hit would be likely to lead to withdrawal, rather than risk its crippling or loss.
In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.
But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.
BFG is relevant as that is the only GW system portraying space combat, so what is or is not reasonable within BFG is a yardstick since we do not have RL ships like 40K to compare against.
The Damage capacity of ships in 40K does not scale linearly or in line with the dimensions of the ship. An Imperial battleship has 12 Damage while a cruiser has 8 yet the battleship is twice as long. The Planet Killer, so big that its construction was thought by the Imperium to have only been possible within the warp space overlap in the Eye, only had 14 Damage. Clearly there seems to be a point of diminishing return. Therefore there is no reason to suppose a Gloriana would have a dramatically different Damage capacity. That is simply famboyism. It sounds like someone does not know their 40K space background.
also consider, even if it was an eldar cruiser, you're talking about a 5 kilometer slab of wraith bone, accelerated to a fairly high speed that directly hits the hull of the ship. this will deal CONSIDERABLE damage. and depending what is hurt could very well knock the ship out of the fight, ESPECIALLY if Abaddon is being careful not to let his flagship be destroyed
Don't forget that the Chaos Lord from Blackstone Fortress looks like he will get a separate release too, based on the codex referring to him as a generic Lord and the fact that Chaos now has standard access to Thunder Hammers.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Imagine though if it was Horus' talon that strikes down Dante and rebirths Sanguinius' spirit or something. The same weapon that was used to kill Sanguinius brings him back in the wake of another dead Blood Angel hero. Dat drama tho. It won't happen haha, Dante will just get Primarised if anything, but I think it'd be cool.
But it would also spit in the face of other people who should get their primarchs over Sanguinius so I agree there. Definitely should be Russ or Lion or any of the others hinted to return over a legitimately dead one.
You know what would be even better tho? If instead of stabbing Dante with the Talon he stabbed Guilliman! And he died too! And then the Emperor was so shaken by the death of his favorite son, he rises from the Golden Throne and screams NOOOOOOO and uses his psychic power to fly around the Earth fast, so fast like faster than the speed of light that it reverses time until we're back before the 13th Black Crusade and Guilliman is still alive and in stasis and there's no Cocatrice Malediction or primaris or Cawl Who?? And before the Custodes (who stay on Terra where they belong) even notice he's gone the Emperor jumps back on the Throne like nothing happened. Except he winks and that's how you know it was all real!
I mean at this point, despite all this Advancing the Storyline, the new setting is just as static as the old one. It's almost like nothing really momentous changes unless they need an excuse to revive a dead primarch or squat the entire space marine line.
drbored wrote: Well, as the rest of Ablaze is out, it looks like everything has been revealed.
We're just waiting on the Master of Executions, Lord Discordant, Havocs, and Terminators to release, which could be a single wave.
Ideally, they'll also release the Venomcrawler and oblits separately, but I have a feeling that wont be for a while...
At this point, I would honestly be okay with pre-orders being a couple of weeks away for the Havocs and Terminators. I just pre-ordered Abbadon and a squad of CSM today. I still haven't finished building all of Shadowspear yet. Both my wallet and my paint station could use some time to recover a bit.
Abaddon, Dark Apostle, Terminators, Havocs, Obliterators - all the other new data-sheets are for brand new units. Chaos Space Marines got a new data-sheet but have no changes that I can see other than access to the new minigun. Chaos Lords and any character or unit (i.e. Chosen) that can access the Melee Weapons list can also take Thunder Hammers now.
Caederes wrote: Don't forget that the Chaos Lord from Blackstone Fortress looks like he will get a separate release too, based on the codex referring to him as a generic Lord and the fact that Chaos now has standard access to Thunder Hammers.
I dunno, with the amount of kits that get stuck in boxes until those disappear and never get a release I wouldn't count on anything getting a separate release.
We have now what? Two units that we are unable to build? Cultists and chosen, both of which had kits in boxes that are no longer available.
Chosen came and disappeared again, while the cultists got replaced by a very puzzling box without the leader or special weapons and are snapfit (wthGW ?_?)
The other difference is that Blackstone Fortress wasn't a starter set, where models are more likely to remain exclusive. I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if the Obsidius Mallex model doesn't get a separate release in the next few weeks.
Caederes wrote: The other difference is that Blackstone Fortress wasn't a starter set, where models are more likely to remain exclusive. I'd be very surprised (and disappointed) if the Obsidius Mallex model doesn't get a separate release in the next few weeks.
This. It also leads to my hope that the other models in it get released, if they do, this could be a greater year for chaos.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
I'm down. It was stupid to kill them off in the first place.
zend wrote: There will be so much reeeeeeeee if Sanguinius comes back in any sort of physical capacity. Might as well bring back Ferrus, the original Alpharius, and Conrad too if they do though.
Imagine though if it was Horus' talon that strikes down Dante and rebirths Sanguinius' spirit or something. The same weapon that was used to kill Sanguinius brings him back in the wake of another dead Blood Angel hero. Dat drama tho. It won't happen haha, Dante will just get Primarised if anything, but I think it'd be cool.
But it would also spit in the face of other people who should get their primarchs over Sanguinius so I agree there. Definitely should be Russ or Lion or any of the others hinted to return over a legitimately dead one.
You know what would be even better tho? If instead of stabbing Dante with the Talon he stabbed Guilliman! And he died too! And then the Emperor was so shaken by the death of his favorite son, he rises from the Golden Throne and screams NOOOOOOO and uses his psychic power to fly around the Earth fast, so fast like faster than the speed of light that it reverses time until we're back before the 13th Black Crusade and Guilliman is still alive and in stasis and there's no Cocatrice Malediction or primaris or Cawl Who?? And before the Custodes (who stay on Terra where they belong) even notice he's gone the Emperor jumps back on the Throne like nothing happened. Except he winks and that's how you know it was all real!
*wipes tear from eye* Beautiful. Would that it were so.
I think people get hung up on the power of the Vengeful Spirit and Gloriana class ships in general. These were the Legion flagships, designed to be among the most powerful warships humanity had ever built. But they were not invincible. They were more powerful than any other ship one on one, and they were flagships that were commanded by the best strategic minds in the Imperial Navy, frequently by Primarchs too. They were surrounded by dozens of other ships too.
But they were far from invincible. The Dark Angels Gloriana was on a skeleton crew and battered to near space unworthiness by the end of the Heresy. She was almost lost to one Death Guard battleship. And if I remember that part right, it was a ramming attack too!
By 40k most of the Glorianas were lost and the Vengeful Spirit has been through 10,000 years of battle and Warp mutations. She’s described by GW as having sections open to space and unusable. She’s a shadow of her former glory by 40k and is still one of the most powerful ships in existence.
Thanatos73 wrote: I think people get hung up on the power of the Vengeful Spirit and Gloriana class ships in general. These were the Legion flagships, designed to be among the most powerful warships humanity had ever built. But they were not invincible. They were more powerful than any other ship one on one, and they were flagships that were commanded by the best strategic minds in the Imperial Navy, frequently by Primarchs too. They were surrounded by dozens of other ships too.
But they were far from invincible. The Dark Angels Gloriana was on a skeleton crew and battered to near space unworthiness by the end of the Heresy. She was almost lost to one Death Guard battleship. And if I remember that part right, it was a ramming attack too!
By 40k most of the Glorianas were lost and the Vengeful Spirit has been through 10,000 years of battle and Warp mutations. She’s described by GW as having sections open to space and unusable. She’s a shadow of her former glory by 40k and is still one of the most powerful ships in existence.
There is a scale drawing of a Gloriana class alongside a "standard" battle barge in FW Horus Heresy Book 3. The Gloriana is about 2x as long in length. However as demonstrated by an Emperor battleship vs. a Lunar cruiser comparison, doubling the length only resulted in about 50% extra Damage capacity, and the Planet Killer vs. the Emperor class only yielded an extra 2 Damage points though we do not know for certain the length of the Planet Killer. I highly doubt the Damage capacity of the Gloriana exceeding the 14 of the Planet Killer.
Even IF for purely the sake of argument, we generously gave a Gloriana 50% more than an Emperor, i.e. a total of 18, a single Bulkhead Collapse inflicting 6 extra Damage means 7 Damage inflicted. That is still over 7/18, or over 1/3 of the total Damage capacity in a single blow. It is easy to see why any commander would withdraw their flagship in such a situation, especially if it might have already taken damage earlier in the battle.
Once you start bringing in gravity of other planets, and probably the gravity generated by the mass of itself, a smaller ship that can blow a hole in it somewhere could compromise it’s super structure so much it could potentially start collapsing on itself. Especially if that hole is in the middle of the ship.
The most awful thing about it is, I bet it was influenced by the last Jedi....
Could you continue the discussion about the events somewhere else please? I come here for the news on minis and don't want to be spoilered by someone not using spoiler tags. Even replies on the topic moaning about new awfull lore is too much.
Are the renagade traits in the codex?
Are the warlord traits/relics of the renagades in the codex?
Or is it just vigilus 2?
Just Vigilus 2. All the new models, detachments, and traits are in Vigilus not the new chaos marine dex. Unless you are starting the army fresh there is no reason to get the updated dex but every reason to get Vigilus 2.
Thanks buddha, im just worried because the last campain book i got (damacles) was invalidated a few months later along with traitor legions.
Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but theres still one demon engine pic unsolved isn't there? And perhaps there is some deliberate deceit going on with the significance of the alpha legion being last showcased. Have all the pages of vigilus been seen for sure? It seems only peronalities got advance copies and could be under orders to skip a page of two for their pre recorded reviews that popped up today. I don't think there is any truth to this, but hey, what would I know, I'm just alpharius..
Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
also consider, even if it was an eldar cruiser, you're talking about a 5 kilometer slab of wraith bone, accelerated to a fairly high speed that directly hits the hull of the ship. this will deal CONSIDERABLE damage. and depending what is hurt could very well knock the ship out of the fight, ESPECIALLY if Abaddon is being careful not to let his flagship be destroyed
Hey put enough speed and no need to be km long to do it. For all we know imperium has forgotten e=mc2 and were congratulating themselves on clever use of deathstrike when it was near lightspeed eldar ship that did it
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
But... they also want to sell those new obliterators right? 115 pts just.. makes no sense and the people coming up with that, have no grasp of anything in the game. Then again, I kind of lost hope with GW long ago when it comes to balancing.
also consider, even if it was an eldar cruiser, you're talking about a 5 kilometer slab of wraith bone, accelerated to a fairly high speed that directly hits the hull of the ship. this will deal CONSIDERABLE damage. and depending what is hurt could very well knock the ship out of the fight, ESPECIALLY if Abaddon is being careful not to let his flagship be destroyed
Hey put enough speed and no need to be km long to do it. For all we know imperium has forgotten e=mc2 and were congratulating themselves on clever use of deathstrike when it was near lightspeed eldar ship that did it
Why is everyone talking down Oblits at their right price? The stacking available to them with the apostle is real. AL Slaaneshi Oblits are going to find it very easy to get 1+/4++/5+++, -2 to hit. That's about as good as a defensive profile can get.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 65pts would have been all kinds of dumb, frankly.
"At the start of each battle round".
So even if your opponent goes first, your Dark Apostle can pray, making sure that you get (if you chose it) that 5++ aura or -1 to hit ability on a crucial unit, in your opponents turn.
As someone who often finds themselves going last, this is amazing, as psychic buffs does nothing if your opponent kills whatever you wanted to buff before you could activate them.
Latro_ wrote: Bit of a confirmation of sorts the oblits pt cost is a misprint. The new data slate is 1-3 but in the back of the book where it has the old pts cost it also has the old unit size of just 3. So pretty much solidifies they forgot to change it to the higher cost.
Well, that puts the obliterators back into trash tier again
could you imagine the ammount of salt that would've been spilled by that?
Also it would make no sense since GW wants to sell us on havocs.
Ultimately i think they went the wrong way with nerfing the oblits but he what do i know.
But... they also want to sell those new obliterators right? 115 pts just.. makes no sense and the people coming up with that, have no grasp of anything in the game. Then again, I kind of lost hope with GW long ago when it comes to balancing.
Yeah but most poeple HAVE obliterators, because they were actually decent.
Havocs on the other hand, were NEVER particualry interesting good or liked and therefore A LOT LESS are owned by players.
Ergo where is the bigger market?
Spoiler:
The Havocs, and just for good measure, the Marines cost 6$ less then a Forgefiend so you can imagine the price for a propper havoc unit, and since we also have not seen how many of each gun are in there they can make a decent income from multiple sales
People would still get those havocs. Its a slightly different niche really compared to Oblits. The latest hotness for those Havocs are that tasty Reaper Chain Cannon. That gun is mainly a anti horde gun. Clears out chaff really well. Oblits are for shooting at heavy duty stuff. Knights, power armour, monsters, etc etc. You could go lascannon havocs, but then what are you going to use to clear hordes? The way I see it, that reaper chain cannon havocs are too valuable to use other than as they are. Want to go heavy duty, that's what stuff like Oblits and other heavy support are for. (Or for chaos CSM, just going right up in the face and smashing them in works too). So, the two fill different niches. If you are using Oblits to clear chaff, you are doing something wrong. And while you could stack enough strategems and prayers to make a reaper chain cannon squad hurt even a Knight, they don't need any support at all to kill chaff fine.
Eldenfirefly wrote: People would still get those havocs. Its a slightly different niche really compared to Oblits. The latest hotness for those Havocs are that tasty Reaper Chain Cannon. That gun is mainly a anti horde gun. Clears out chaff really well. Oblits are for shooting at heavy duty stuff. Knights, power armour, monsters, etc etc. You could go lascannon havocs, but then what are you going to use to clear hordes? The way I see it, that reaper chain cannon havocs are too valuable to use other than as they are. Want to go heavy duty, that's what stuff like Oblits and other heavy support are for. (Or for chaos CSM, just going right up in the face and smashing them in works too). So, the two fill different niches. If you are using Oblits to clear chaff, you are doing something wrong. And while you could stack enough strategems and prayers to make a reaper chain cannon squad hurt even a Knight, they don't need any support at all to kill chaff fine.
And why can't havocs do both? VotLW still works on them on legion havocs, leading to 4+ wounds on nearly anything with the Rotor cannon.
Because he's talking about stacking buffs on one unit until it's god-tier, and you choose the unit with the greatest damage output and the best defensive profile - that's Oblits over Havocs.
But you don't have to play that way. I'm sure 3x havocs will be really competitive.
Thanatos73 wrote: I think people get hung up on the power of the Vengeful Spirit and Gloriana class ships in general. These were the Legion flagships, designed to be among the most powerful warships humanity had ever built. But they were not invincible. They were more powerful than any other ship one on one, and they were flagships that were commanded by the best strategic minds in the Imperial Navy, frequently by Primarchs too. They were surrounded by dozens of other ships too.
But they were far from invincible. The Dark Angels Gloriana was on a skeleton crew and battered to near space unworthiness by the end of the Heresy. She was almost lost to one Death Guard battleship. And if I remember that part right, it was a ramming attack too!
By 40k most of the Glorianas were lost and the Vengeful Spirit has been through 10,000 years of battle and Warp mutations. She’s described by GW as having sections open to space and unusable. She’s a shadow of her former glory by 40k and is still one of the most powerful ships in existence.
There is a scale drawing of a Gloriana class alongside a "standard" battle barge in FW Horus Heresy Book 3. The Gloriana is about 2x as long in length. However as demonstrated by an Emperor battleship vs. a Lunar cruiser comparison, doubling the length only resulted in about 50% extra Damage capacity, and the Planet Killer vs. the Emperor class only yielded an extra 2 Damage points though we do not know for certain the length of the Planet Killer. I highly doubt the Damage capacity of the Gloriana exceeding the 14 of the Planet Killer.
Even IF for purely the sake of argument, we generously gave a Gloriana 50% more than an Emperor, i.e. a total of 18, a single Bulkhead Collapse inflicting 6 extra Damage means 7 Damage inflicted. That is still over 7/18, or over 1/3 of the total Damage capacity in a single blow. It is easy to see why any commander would withdraw their flagship in such a situation, especially if it might have already taken damage earlier in the battle.
Spoiler:
Gloriana-class battleships are not the most powerful ships built by the Imperium. That honour goes to the Abyss-class, of which only three were built at the onset of the Horus Heresy.
We have BFG rules for a surviving Abyss-class in 40k- the Rapturous Rex. IIRC, it had 24hp, definitely at least 20. That is the upper limit for a Gloriana-class, but the actual value would likely be lower. I think 16-18hp would be very plausible for a Gloriana based on this. Only unique survivors of the Dark Age would be more powerful, like the Phalanx.
Kirasu wrote: In what way does BFG rules have anything to do with this? These games rarely reflect the fluff, however, a book CAN reflect the fluff accurately but GW is writing saturday morning cartoons lately. You don't seem like you know what a Gloriana class ship is either with the statement of "It might have".. It's orders of magnitudes more powerful and durable than any other ship ever constructed (Thats why only less than 2 dozen were ever constructed). One eldar ship isn't going to blow "huge holes" in it.. Again, deathstrike missiles are battlefield weapons and are a complete and utter joke in a void war.
But the fluff has been a disaster since the Ward Era anyway, unless you love G.I Joe style writing.
I like how 95% of the time the only argument of people who don't like additions to the lore is "how dare they touch my headcanon (that had little in common with canon in the first place), the complete !".
First, even ignoring the fact BFG completely trumps whatever you imagine 40K space combat to be, if you had any point to stand on about ramming tactics efficiency, the ramming prows wouldn't feature extremely prominently on literally every single Imperial, Chaos, Eldar, Ork, Dark Eldar (add dozen more races) ship. Oh, wait, they do, so you're completely wrong to begin with.
Second, it seems you have no idea what Gloriana is. Before HH novels retconned them, Glorianas were simple battle barges, end of story. The ships that were later named Glorianas feature in dozens of books and short stories, and not a single one of these paints them as anything exceptional. Hell, half of HH stories don't either, duel of Infidus Imperator (bog standard battle barge) vs Macragge's Honour somehow wasn't one-sided engagement and Word Bearers fully expected to be able to win. I wonder why if Glorianas are so l33t? In battle of Phall, the Iron Blood was boarded and would be destroyed if IF didn't suddenly withdraw which again doesn't really jive with your headcanon, does it? You have several other Glorianas like Swordstorm and Amphion (which was 'just' a navy battleship, again weird status for supposed h4x ship, not to mention a blow for their supposed rarity) destroyed in normal battles, others like Chronicle of Ashes captured in regular battles, etc, etc.
Ironically, what is perfect example of "G.I Joe style writing" is trumpeting up of Glorianas as these invincible mega-hiper battleships (as opposed to 'just' a heavy battle barge with flagship modifications) by a handful of BL writers (who then ass-pulled even more giga-duper class out of thin air, the Furious Abyss trio) and your inability to see it is kind of funny. Maybe look in the mirror before accusing someone first?
As for deathstrikes being 'battlefield' weapons, this is "technically" right but it completely ignores the fact votex warheads ignore armour and if you drill a few dozen holes through the length of the ship it will completely cease to be combat-worthy, no matter what technical nitpicking you will use. If you stab someone with a butter knife, whining it's not meant for that won't make the wound disappear, will it?
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Once you start bringing in gravity of other planets, and probably the gravity generated by the mass of itself, a smaller ship that can blow a hole in it somewhere could compromise it’s super structure so much it could potentially start collapsing on itself. Especially if that hole is in the middle of the ship.
The most awful thing about it is, I bet it was influenced by the last Jedi....
Most likely it was influenced by the centuries of ramships in actual naval engagements or BFG where ramming ships was a valid, legitimate tactic for at least 3 of the factions.
Sad, but not unexpected. I think we've already leaked/seen all the new models the CSM are getting.
Only question is, where's that sorcerer? Maybe a blackstone fortress expansion set?
On a side note, they mistake the Crimson Slaughter on bikes for word bearers. They've got the word bearers symbol on the pic, but that's not them
GaroRobe wrote: Sad, but not unexpected. I think we've already leaked/seen all the new models the CSM are getting.
Only question is, where's that sorcerer? Maybe a blackstone fortress expansion set?
On a side note, they mistake the Crimson Slaughter on bikes for word bearers. They've got the word bearers symbol on the pic, but that's not them
Well IDK about that, we are still waiting to see alot of the known releases. Notably Terminators, so maybe yet to come?
GaroRobe wrote: Sad, but not unexpected. I think we've already leaked/seen all the new models the CSM are getting.
Only question is, where's that sorcerer? Maybe a blackstone fortress expansion set?
On a side note, they mistake the Crimson Slaughter on bikes for word bearers. They've got the word bearers symbol on the pic, but that's not them
Well IDK about that, we are still waiting to see alot of the known releases. Notably Terminators, so maybe yet to come?
The datamined Terminator and Havoc stuff suggests we'll be seeing them go up as part of the "What's Coming Next Week" post today.
It's also worth mentioning that the banner page on the GW webstore proper? It shows a lot of stuff that isn't up for release next Saturday, but is still known.
Anybody who has looked at the new chaos codex:
I am one of the 3 people on Earth who use the fallen
Can anybody tell me if their datasheets have changed at all? Either cyphers or the Fallen?
I assume nobody here has seen the Dex in person or whatever, but it's worth a shot.
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
Yep. always liked this much better than having every army led by some special characters
None of the special characters were broken. If anything, most of them were underpowered.
Rules being fine > Your need for no special characters
Don't know if the Executioner is any good as a unit, but that model is an absolute no-no. If I want to use one, definitely going to be a conversion. probably use the Primaris Chaplain as a base.
1x Chaingun bit per kit. But, Heavy Bolters are basically the same besides the barrels, so just grab a CSM kit and a Havoc kit, some Assault Cannon bits, and convert away for four Chainguns.
'This kit will allow you to build 5 Havocs, armed with an array of heavy weaponry. Inside, you’ll find 2 missile launchers, 2 heavy bolters, 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons and 1 reaper chaincannon, giving you loads of choice when kitting out your squads. What’s more, all of these heavy weapons are designed to be compatible with the Chaos Space Marines kit, meaning you’ll be able to use your spares to up-gun your chosen squads! A choice of heads, accessories, shoulder pads and more allow you to customise your Havocs even further.'
'This kit will allow you to build 5 Havocs, armed with an array of heavy weaponry. Inside, you’ll find 2 missile launchers, 2 heavy bolters, 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons and 1 reaper chaincannon, giving you loads of choice when kitting out your squads. What’s more, all of these heavy weapons are designed to be compatible with the Chaos Space Marines kit, meaning you’ll be able to use your spares to up-gun your chosen squads! A choice of heads, accessories, shoulder pads and more allow you to customise your Havocs even further.'
Having just one chaincannon is just plain torture
Luckily it is just simple conversion if using autocannon or heavy bolter as base. And you get other weapons in pairs.
Mr Insomniac wrote: So that confirms there is a 3rd havoc sprue. Wonder why they didn’t show it?
Given the bitz listed and what we've seen of the painted figs, I suspect the "3rd" sprue is just a combo of the bottom halves of the 2 sprues we've already seen
have to say a pretty BS move to have 2 of each weapon except chaingun. Smells a little too much of old GW marketing. I will definitely be converting mine, and since I have all the ACs and HBs I need, won't even need to buy the kit. Sorry GW, but this time your marketing ploy backfired for me.
bullyboy wrote: have to say a pretty BS move to have 2 of each weapon except chaingun. Smells a little too much of old GW marketing. I will definitely be converting mine, and since I have all the ACs and HBs I need, won't even need to buy the kit. Sorry GW, but this time your marketing ploy backfired for me.
And yeah know.
FW has rotor cannons that look almost exactly the same.
The Devastator kit did the same didn’t it?
Something only got 1, then 2 of the other 4/5 choices.
Galen, again looking at the Dev sprue, I don’t see why it’d be repeats.
Also we know it will have two unique bodies to it, so won’t be exactly the same.
(The Dev kit, the two ML’s for instance, looked very similar, but it wasn’t the same part twice etc)
The chaincannon thing is truly cheeky. And with the heavy weapons from the CSM kit blatantly obvious they're skimping the new gun when you could have a single HB if you "had" to reduce one weapon choice. Converting some more wouldn't be hard for the barrels, but that ammo chain is pretty awesome and harder to replicate. IMO it's the best ammo feed in GWs range.
I'm also worried about the amount of lightning claws/stabby hobo fingernails on the Termi kit. They've only ever shown the same pair, have they not? And the more I look at the Termis the less I like them, they seem small compared to their tropy skulls.
Oh well, at least the weapon choices included won't be as daft as the regular Death Guard Plaguemarines...I hope.
Rydria wrote: The only weapon people actually want is the one you only get 1 of in the box fantastic :/
That's called marketing genius.
Edit: I wasn't sarcastically calling you a genius, I was saying it was Marketing Genius (one concept).
I'm not so sure about that. If it had two of the guns, I could see many people buying two boxes so they could have the four gatling squad they wanted. I don't think that terribly many people are willing to buy four boxes for that though.
In any case, as annoying as the situation might be, I suspect that the sprues were designed way before the rules were written, and there isn't any nefarious plan behind this.
The Reaper Chaingun looks great but we have plenty of Heavy Bolter level dakka in a number of places... what it does isn’t exactly something I feel I’ve needed more. Maybe it’ll act to consolidate that fire power to free up other choices elsewhere... but to me itt’s something of a distraction from the sort of heavy weapons we’ve typically had to put on our Havocs to compensate in other ways. Don’t get me wrong its clearly more worthwhile than a number of options, but after I have everything else chosen for my army I’m usually looking for range and anti-tank...
The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
It’s frustrating, but realistically all you need to do is buy a pack of rotor cannons from forgeworld or wherever cut the barrels off and glue them to the end of the heavy bolters and you now have 3 chaincannons per squad.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
It's because the unit entry no longer has Havocs with Boltguns. No need to include an option that doesn't exist.
aka_mythos wrote: The Reaper Chaingun looks great but we have plenty of Heavy Bolter level dakka in a number of places... what it does isn’t exactly something I feel I’ve needed more. Maybe it’ll act to consolidate that fire power to free up other choices elsewhere... but to me itt’s something of a distraction from the sort of heavy weapons we’ve typically had to put on our Havocs to compensate in other ways. Don’t get me wrong its clearly more worthwhile than a number of options, but after I have everything else chosen for my army I’m usually looking for range and anti-tank...
The weapon can also be taken on Basic CSM and Choosen. With 8 shots it would still be viable to shoot the gun on the move even at the -1 penalty compared to the standard heavy bolter.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
It's because the unit entry no longer has Havocs with Boltguns. No need to include an option that doesn't exist.
Not technically. I doubt they built the datasheet *require* four heavy or special weapons. You just can't build a squad with more than five Marines.
I don't understand why people is so eager about the Chaincannon. I mean, its a minigun, its amazing, I love it, but is not like it won't end up nerfed or changed if its become problematic. Or just by random balance changes.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
It's because the unit entry no longer has Havocs with Boltguns. No need to include an option that doesn't exist.
Not technically. I doubt they built the datasheet *require* four heavy or special weapons. You just can't build a squad with more than five Marines.
Nope. Havocs with boltguns no longer exist. It's fething stupid imo, but I suppose it'll just make me spread my heavy weapons out into CSM squads now instead of havocs for those extra wounds I enjoy having.
To be honest, I haven't bought a box of Chaos Space Marines since the 90's.
I've always thought they were a bit absurd-looking, especially as someone who plays Alpha Legion. I need a bit less spikes, skulls, tentacles, etc. I always stuck with the Mark 4's when I started playing them a few years ago for a while.
However, I can appreciate the Baroque style of these new models, and the Havocs look super-badass.
I think I'll be making a new Kill-Team soon. Especially if I can cram a damned MINIGUN into the squad. HYDRA DOMINATUS!
Since Chaos Lords can take Thunder Hammers now and we can include Obsilliest Mollusk from Blackstone Fortress, albeit as a generic Chaos Lord... what are the odds of those Traitor Guardsmen appearing in the new Codex? Or are we gonna be stuck running them as cultists?
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
It's because the unit entry no longer has Havocs with Boltguns. No need to include an option that doesn't exist.
I really hate when GW screws around with a unit in such a way. Though a look in my crystal ball tells me that in 9th Havocs will get their meat shields back.
Galas wrote: I don't understand why people is so eager about the Chaincannon. I mean, its a minigun, its amazing, I love it, but is not like it won't end up nerfed or changed if its become problematic. Or just by random balance changes.
Don't we know better to not fall into that trap?
Sush, man! What are you trying to do? Cut into our Forge World revenue?
Not going for the Havoc chain gun guys, but I think I will put 2 of them in a 10 man chaos marine sqd. My havocs will remain as AT duty (IW, so yeah, that's what they do)
Surprised not to see the Lord Discordant on pre-order so we still have a few more weeks of chaos releases.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing I hate is that you can't buy four boxes of Havocs and build some of the extras as regular CSM. They don't have the backpacks to do it. Nor are there boltguns(from what I can tell) to build Havocs with boltguns, despite the fact the kit allows for it.
Just means that you can build cooler looking heavy weapons guys for the regular CSM boxes and get more from your Bolter guys that way, IMO.
Really disappointed in GWs decision to remake indominus terminators vs cataphractii. While the old kit didn’t particularly age well, notably when compared to current SM terms, it had some nice features like the tentacle arm. I had long ago compensated for the lack of options by getting bits from ebay or FW. How cool would a chaos cataphractii kit have been? They could have kept both. The new chain fist and ventilator head look derpy compared to the old ones. All that said it’s always nice to get new kits with full load outs. Hopefully there will be alternative head options. Or maybe chaos warrior heads will fit.
Lotus Corgi wrote: Really disappointed in GWs decision to remake indominus terminators vs cataphractii. While the old kit didn’t particularly age well, notably when compared to current SM terms, it had some nice features like the tentacle arm. I had long ago compensated for the lack of options by getting bits from ebay or FW. How cool would a chaos cataphractii kit have been? They could have kept both. The new chain fist and ventilator head look derpy compared to the old ones. All that said it’s always nice to get new kits with full load outs. Hopefully there will be alternative head options. Or maybe chaos warrior heads will fit.
Indominus is the classic an better looking design. NIce to see that they got a worthy update.
bullyboy wrote: have to say a pretty BS move to have 2 of each weapon except chaingun. Smells a little too much of old GW marketing. I will definitely be converting mine, and since I have all the ACs and HBs I need, won't even need to buy the kit. Sorry GW, but this time your marketing ploy backfired for me.
I agree. That´s the good old middle finger GW uses to satisfy their fanbase. Luckily for me I still have CSM from the 90s boardgame Space Crusade which included three miniguns. I will have to see if the spare minigun from the SM Landspeeder can be converted for infantry use to complement the squad.
Galas wrote: I don't understand why people is so eager about the Chaincannon. I mean, its a minigun, its amazing, I love it, but is not like it won't end up nerfed or changed if its become problematic. Or just by random balance changes.
Don't we know better to not fall into that trap?
Slaanesh havocs with VOTLW have 62 shots while wounding GEQ on 2+ and MEQ on 3+ and everything else on 4+ so they appear to be really good gameplay wise, also chainguns are really cool.
Galas wrote: I don't understand why people is so eager about the Chaincannon. I mean, its a minigun, its amazing, I love it, but is not like it won't end up nerfed or changed if its become problematic. Or just by random balance changes.
Lotus Corgi wrote: Really disappointed in GWs decision to remake indominus terminators vs cataphractii. While the old kit didn’t particularly age well, notably when compared to current SM terms, it had some nice features like the tentacle arm. I had long ago compensated for the lack of options by getting bits from ebay or FW. How cool would a chaos cataphractii kit have been? They could have kept both. The new chain fist and ventilator head look derpy compared to the old ones. All that said it’s always nice to get new kits with full load outs. Hopefully there will be alternative head options. Or maybe chaos warrior heads will fit.
Tartaros was already used up by TS, Cataphractii by DG. They did Indomitus because not only Sons of Horus had tons of the stuff, but to not reapeat visual themes with the other two chaos releases. And while I liked old kit better too, I can see why they went with refresh - 4 inch move on army that likes melee would have been a non-starter...
tbh, I think havocs are way more valuable with lascannons than with reaper chaincannons. The ability to scare Knights is where it's at, and the fact that there's 2 lascannons in a box is great. It means I can get 2 boxes, have enough for 1 lascannon squad, 1 missile launcher squad, and an autocannon squad is great. Then I can throw the 2 reaper chaincannons onto the chaos marines that are more likely to be closer anyway.
Thank goodness some of those weapons are doubled up. Now I can't wait to see the terminator sprue and see all the stuff that's on that. I'm sure it'll be 1 of each combi weapon and the rest stormbolters.
I've already ordered three additional chainguns to slot onto my MkIII Chaos bodies. Slot them into squads or actually make a Havoc squad (something I haven't bothered with yet). You can find chainguns from 3rd party retailers very easily...
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
Yep. always liked this much better than having every army led by some special characters
None of the special characters were broken. If anything, most of them were underpowered.
Rules being fine > Your need for no special characters
You are missing the point dude. Entirely missing the point. It's about the spirit of the game, not rules being too strong.
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...
And why do those special rules need to be packaged with that specific gear? Why just not make the special rules those characters have Warlord Traits, or some other type Hero Traits you can slap on any character and then customise the gear too?
And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...
Because named characters often have specific abilities/equipment unique to them. Yes you can just refluff it, but well you can do that with your other HQs as well. Shadowsun is always going to be in her modified suit, I don't want that, I want my commander in a regular suit, gives me more room to build them as their own character without the mechanical ramifications of special characters.
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Especially Badab war characters were excellent for this - few people knew who they were, yet they gave dozens of characterful builds. There is a reason why Blaylock and Issodon were so popular. Alas, after 5th edition a lot of this was ruined by "OFFICIAL CHAPTER ONLY" crowd, but still, if you want anything but *yawn* thunder hammer/storm shield Captain Beatstickus Dumblandus #298848745038945 the special characters are pretty much the only way to do this. Just look at primaris range - no special characters, all generic junk, you can tell what the HQ will be and their loadout down to last frag grenade as soon as you see the chapter name. Gee, that sure sounds like ""your"" character, doesn't it...
YEAH but the CSM Codex 3.5 disagrees with you...
Not its/our fault that the rest of the game didn't go with the flow.
warboss wrote: People whined when FW introduced a special character (iirc a dark angel chaplain in IA3 Taros?) and people whined there was nothing special about him (or a model iirc).
Don't introduce “special characters”. Introduce characters.
“Hey it's this guy, he is a space marine captain, he has this personality and have this adventure. Since he is a space marine captain you can use the space marine captain to represent him, or better, use the space marine rules to represent the cool character that you got the idea from through immersion on the settings via all those characters (that can be represented with the standard ruleset) we introduced earlier”
I remember when playing special characters required asking specific permission from the opponent.
Yep. always liked this much better than having every army led by some special characters
None of the special characters were broken. If anything, most of them were underpowered.
Rules being fine > Your need for no special characters
You are missing the point dude. Entirely missing the point. It's about the spirit of the game, not rules being too strong.
And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?
Irbis wrote: You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting.
Because some people want to create their own characters/stories/narratives and don't want to use pre-packaged characters, or even 'counts as'.
Irbis wrote: Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
No he fething didn't. He made it so the only way to play Salamanders/Imp Fists/Raven Guard/Crimson Fists/etc. was to bring a special character.
I'm glad that rot never spread to Chaos, forcing World Eater players to bring Kharn to every battle lest their World Eaters suddenly stop being World Eaters, and so on.
If you like special characters that's fine - there was a period in my life where I never took to the table without my Half-Brother leading the charge, Tiggy by his side - but eventually I wanted to tell my own stories with my own characters.
Crimson wrote: And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.
Hey now. Can't get they get Power Fists now? And at least 2 different types of Bolter?
Irbis wrote: You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting.
Because some people want to create their own characters/stories/narratives and don't want to use pre-packaged characters, or even 'counts as'.
Irbis wrote: Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
No he fething didn't. He made it so the only way to play Salamanders/Imp Fists/Raven Guard/Crimson Fists/etc. was to bring a special character.
I'm glad that rot never spread to Chaos, forcing World Eater players to bring Kharn to every battle lest their World Eaters suddenly stop being World Eaters, and so on.
If you like special characters that's fine - there was a period in my life where I never took to the table without my Half-Brother leading the charge, Tiggy by his side - but eventually I wanted to tell my own stories with my own characters.
Crimson wrote: And the problem with the Primaris characters is not the lack of special characters, it is the lack of options on normal characters.
Hey now. Can't get they get Power Fists now? And at least 2 different types of Bolter?
How can one hold all these options!!!
If the model was actually creative in any form, chances are counts-as would happen even with wargear. I don't buy your argument.
So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.
We actually have exactly that already. They're called Warlord Traits and Relics. You can make your own character, give them the special rule (Warlord Trait) that you desire, give them a Relic to boost their abilities, and name them whatever you want.
I really don't get where these complaints are suddenly coming from. Either way, this is a thread about the New Chaos Marines, so maybe we should get back on topic.
drbored wrote: So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.
drbored wrote: So, I think the issue is that there are a group of people complaining in here that want you to be able to take a generic character, add on abilities to suit your taste, and name them whatever you want.
We actually have exactly that already. They're called Warlord Traits and Relics. You can make your own character, give them the special rule (Warlord Trait) that you desire, give them a Relic to boost their abilities, and name them whatever you want.
I really don't get where these complaints are suddenly coming from. Either way, this is a thread about the New Chaos Marines, so maybe we should get back on topic.
You missed the point. Please go back and relook at the WHOLE thread. ( of course you are correct, but look at where the conversation diverted to three different tangents... It wouldn't be a DAKKA thread without it.)
If generic characters had more options available, especially Primaris, and we could somehow get something like the character creation thing from CA18 allowed for match play, I think people would be happier. [Note- I haven’t looked into the custom character thing from CA18 for more than ten seconds a page, approximately.]
I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.
Honestly, I don't need a metric gak ton of "Special characters", seeing the ones I have seen so far, I am almost ready to throw the towel in on some of these so called "Special characters"...
I don't see a problem, either with someone who wants to put together their own special character, within reason. Some of these "New" guys in the New or additional codex they are coming out with are a little over the top. I honestly saw two or three and wasn't really impressed with what GW did with them....
back in the day, the Player was the one who dictated their game, not needing anyone to come behind them for them to ask "Mother may I"...
Grot 6 wrote: I need to see the new Chaos Codex, and coincide it with the Blackstar Fortress Black Legion fella's... Personally, those are the only ones I am interested in, and needing to clean up.
I can speak to him: unless my tired memory is playing tricks on me, he's exactly the same cost (as of his release) as a Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and a SM thunder hammer. And his rules effectively are the same as the generic one with the slightly unusual wargear choice, except that he also provides his lord buff to the BSF keyword models and requires they deploy near him. He's the most generic special character I've noticed in a while. If they add the BSF units with the new cultist "not a space marine" rule, he'd be essentially identical to a generic character with specific gear.
Irbis wrote: You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Because if I do that, I'm locked to that exact pairing of rules and gear, which might or might not fit with the idea I have for my character.
Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.
Albertorius wrote: Because if I do that, I'm locked to that exact pairing of rules and gear, which might or might not fit with the idea I have for my character.
Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.
Problem is, of course, that GW is giving less and less customization options for regular characters too nowadays, anyway. Which makes me sad.
Hear hear, i miss the insane customizability of Ork Hq choices.
Sadly epitomised the most within the Ork Codex itself, a book that should, by rights, be the most free and open to kitbashing, wacky weapon combos and other madness. But no, 6 optionless buggies. Fantastic.
Sadly epitomised the most within the Ork Codex itself, a book that should, by rights, be the most free and open to kitbashing, wacky weapon combos and other madness.
But no, 6 optionless buggies. Fantastic.
I belive that was literally the worst about the codex.
No more Biker warbosses but here take these 6 buggies that are all completly optionless.
I miss the days of the release of the dakka Jet, still having 2 of them and a burna bomba at home ready to be painted and not one looks identical with any other.
That was a Set well done.
'This kit will allow you to build 5 Havocs, armed with an array of heavy weaponry. Inside, you’ll find 2 missile launchers, 2 heavy bolters, 2 lascannons, 2 autocannons and 1 reaper chaincannon, giving you loads of choice when kitting out your squads. What’s more, all of these heavy weapons are designed to be compatible with the Chaos Space Marines kit, meaning you’ll be able to use your spares to up-gun your chosen squads! A choice of heads, accessories, shoulder pads and more allow you to customise your Havocs even further.'
Having just one chaincannon is just plain torture
Luckily it is just simple conversion if using autocannon or heavy bolter as base. And you get other weapons in pairs.
The one bonus I'm getting from this is Chosen still exist.
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
Yes, exactly, and my own chapter/craftworld/hive fleet/subfaction too!
Irbis wrote: You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Rename Sicarus entry to “Experienced captain” then. Rename Kantor to “Elite first company captain”. Or give them faux latin names. I don't care. Just don't make “Play with other people's character” the official fun way to play.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?
No, special characters being made an integral part of the game, on the same level as generic stuff (along with a lot of stuff, especially true now on 8th with the subfaction specific rules) reframe the game from the original, RPG-inspired “Build your own army with it's lore and character etc” into “Play with armies and characters designed by us”, Warmachine style.
I did my own chapter and characters for awhile. When I got back into Marines with the release of Primaris and basically started over, I switched to Salamanders. Mostly got my own characters with that, but I have converted up the Apothecary from Forgeworld, and would like to do the Dreadnaught and Vulkan eventually.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If the model was actually creative in any form, chances are counts-as would happen even with wargear. I don't buy your argument.
You quote an entire post with separate points being made, so I honestly don't know what point you're attempting to make. Can you please clarify?
That was directed at the "tell stories with my characters" paragraph. They talked about Counts As being bad, and my argument is if your model wasn't super generic you'd likely have to do Counts As anyway.
When you use Counts As with a Special Character, it is really no different than just using an HQ that didn't have a lot of options. Chaplains certainly never had a ton of options, did they?
Albertorius wrote: I'd generally prefer to play with my own characters, rather than someone else's, which is basically what you're doing when using specials.
Yes, exactly, and my own chapter/craftworld/hive fleet/subfaction too!
Irbis wrote: You know, I never understood this point. It just makes no sense. Generic characters are garbage - good if you want beatstick, bad if you want character or anything actually interesting. Ward in 5th edition actually got it right - take rules, run as whoever you want. Want experienced captain leading veteran tactical company? Take Sicarius. Want elite first company captain boosting vanguard and sternguard in particular? Take Kantor. Want assault company captain? Take Shrike. All special characters did for fluffy players was providing them with framework available nowhere else, certainly not on generic bland.
Rename Sicarus entry to “Experienced captain” then. Rename Kantor to “Elite first company captain”. Or give them faux latin names. I don't care. Just don't make “Play with other people's character” the official fun way to play.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And special characters that aren't exactly strong go against the spirit of the game?
No, special characters being made an integral part of the game, on the same level as generic stuff (along with a lot of stuff, especially true now on 8th with the subfaction specific rules) reframe the game from the original, RPG-inspired “Build your own army with it's lore and character etc” into “Play with armies and characters designed by us”, Warmachine style.
Nothing stops you from using the generic Captain. Librarians and Chaplains and Techmarines (formerly the Master of the Forge) have super limited options in the first place. They would never have fit your "build your army" standard.
Making customizable, modular models is really tricky. Maybe it's because I built several Space Marine armies (Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes) using bits ferreted from bitz re-sellers, but I really like how that worked. Alternately, given how it creates space for 3rd parties like Kromlech (who do create miniatures, by the way) to profit from GW's IP and marketing, I can see how it's not something GW might want to pursue. Plus looking at the plastic sprues I'm kind of astonished by how GW is looking to combine those goals.
I'll also confess to loving the "[Insert Name Here] Generic Space Marine Captain" approach to characters, but I can see how it's cool to have characters from the stories available for use. Part of the appeal of Warhammer is that it can be a lot of stuff to a lot of people.
Looking at the CSM sprues I was rather hopeful for customisation due to seperate torsos and legs, but on closer inspection, the back of the torso seems to have detail which slots into a set piece of legs, making mix and match very fiddly.
Will hold off from buying them when there is more known about the customisation. But it doesn't bode well.
He's not that expensive at all and he will absolutely carve up most things he touches.
!". 
. Fixed now.