Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

I suspect/hope that the Eliminators and Chaos Marines (that we've only seen 3 each so far) are actually ETB sets including in Shadow Spear and separately.

It just seems odd to me that they would only preview 3 of each if Shadow Spear itself would come with 5 each (the minimum unit size for each, presumably)
It would be a great way to A) replace the ancient ETB Chaos Marine set and B) get the Eliminators out there quickly.

Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

Voss wrote:
Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

But the unrecyclable laminated cards and boards are waste as are the unrecyclable plastic inserts used for packaging.

I helped run a bits store for a while, the amount of waste was an eye opener already and has gotten much worse, it used to be mostly card.

Polystyrene is probably one of the most recyclable plastics of all, being a simple thermoplastic. You can recycle it yourself if you heat it up and have a use for molten styrene!

Although I suspect much sprue waste is just sent to landfill despite that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rayvon wrote:

Voss wrote:
Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

But the unrecyclable laminated cards and boards are waste as are the unrecyclable plastic inserts used for packaging.

I helped run a bits store for a while and the amount of waste was an eye opener already and has gotten much worse, it used to be mostly card.

Is this in the boardgames used as a vehicle to sell standard models, like Betrayal at Calth, as opposed to the purely 40k boxsets like Tooth and Claw? The latter has much less "waste" (depending on what you do with the boardgames) than the former.

Its the big boxed game sets like this that are the main offenders, they have a lot of stuff in that many people buying for the minis just throw away and they release so many of these nowadays as opposed to just boxes with sprues in.


Its not a huge issue but an issue that can be improved upon none the less.

Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

 Rayvon wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I’m definitely with you on the waste issue. The nurgle stuff from the starter set and all of the contents of forgebane apart from the knights are still piles of grey plastic guilt for me. They aren’t the only examples either.

Hopefully the stuff will be sold separately soon. But the box sets are such good value that you’re virtually getting the other faction’s stuff for free. I can easily see myself getting the set if the rules are good, because I’ll need the models in time take to a tournament in March.

Yea I cannot blame people for buying and I know that a lot of people will buy it just because of the price, I am a big GW fan but it makes me sad that they have such a horrible environmental impact with all the unrecyclable waste they have been producing recently.

Agreed. I actually work for an environmental charity and we're doing a big thing about plastic waste at the moment. It's a bit awkward!

My least favourite thing is that they've started putting black plastic packaging around the frames in boxes, for stuff like kill team models and some of the primaris characters. That stuff should be recyclable (actually it shouldn't exist at all since it does nothing) but the fact that it's black means the machines can't see it.

Honestly GW aren't the worst. They have a bunch of solar panels on their factory roof, which is nice. But there's an awful lot more they could do. These sets are definitely wasteful.

 Galef wrote:
I suspect/hope that the Eliminators and Chaos Marines (that we've only seen 3 each so far) are actually ETB sets including in Shadow Spear and separately.

It just seems odd to me that they would only preview 3 of each if Shadow Spear itself would come with 5 each (the minimum unit size for each, presumably)
It would be a great way to A) replace the ancient ETB Chaos Marine set and B) get the Eliminators out there quickly.

We know there's at least two more CSM that didn't get previewed but were in the video. One had what looked like a meltagun and one had the same helmet as the boltgun armed CSM from the photo preview, but a box instead of a magazine for the ammo feed.

Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

Them being a 3 minimum unit would be...interesting. I could see them being a max of 3, but being able to deploy and operate separately once the game starts...but I guess they could also just be units of 3 ala Aggressors or Inceptors.

I'm thinking it's just that there's a 'unit upgrade' option for both items they don't want to show off just yet.

 Galef wrote:
I suspect/hope that the Eliminators and Chaos Marines (that we've only seen 3 each so far) are actually ETB sets including in Shadow Spear and separately.

It just seems odd to me that they would only preview 3 of each if Shadow Spear itself would come with 5 each (the minimum unit size for each, presumably)
It would be a great way to A) replace the ancient ETB Chaos Marine set and B) get the Eliminators out there quickly.

Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

Dunno if it is any indicator, but the old push fit CSM are No Longer Available on the US store.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

Them being a 3 minimum unit would be...interesting. I could see them being a max of 3, but being able to deploy and operate separately once the game starts.

In any case, I'm getting tired of the "min 5 for all Infantry that aren't close to monster sized" philosophy GW has lately. It would be refreshing to see some units operating as 3-man specialty teams.
3-min does not have to be reserves for Bikers and larger bulky Infantry. Regular Joes should be able to work at 3-min.

-

 DominayTrix wrote:

Dunno if it is any indicator, but the old push fit CSM are No Longer Available on the US store.

The Ork Boyz one went to "No Longer Available" when their book came out, but they're back now under the "Easy To Build" banner.

I've been kinda/sorta wondering if we'll see the Blackstone Fortress "enemies" sprue made available by itself.

Eliminators could easily be a 3-man team like aggressors and Inceptors. In fact that's what I expect, now we've seen the photo of three together. If anything I'm a little worried that the two kneeling guys look like the exact same model, so wondering if these are ETB rather than full kits.

If anything for Primaris is troops in this release then I think it'll be those guys in the reiver armour with bolt rifles. And that would be cool.

I do wonder what else there'll be for marines in the box. CSM have obliterators, troops and that spider thing, plus at least one character. It also looks like there's a posessed marine on the art pic. Marines seem to have troops, snipers, a librarian and probably a captain/lieutenant. It feels like something's missing from the marine side of things but there's nothing on the picture (which I'm taking to be the box art) that it could easily be. That said, snipers aren't in that pic either.

Mandragola wrote:
Eliminators could easily be a 3-man team like aggressors and Inceptors. In fact that's what I expect, now we've seen the photo of three together. If anything I'm a little worried that the two kneeling guys look like the exact same model, so wondering if these are ETB rather than full kits.

The ETB kits have come after full kits. And no ETB products have been in these 'battleboxes'.

There have been "Combat Squad" sized boxes(5 rather than 10 Intercessors and Reivers) but that's been as "streamlined" as they get.

If anything for Primaris is troops in this release then I think it'll be those guys in the reiver armour with bolt rifles. And that would be cool.

I do wonder what else there'll be for marines in the box. CSM have obliterators, troops and that spider thing, plus at least one character. It also looks like there's a posessed marine on the art pic. Marines seem to have troops, snipers, a librarian and probably a captain/lieutenant. It feels like something's missing from the marine side of things but there's nothing on the picture (which I'm taking to be the box art) that it could easily be. That said, snipers aren't in that pic either.

There's a Lieutenant/Captain(I'm saying Lieutenant personally) in the art as "Primarisized Telion", the Librarian, the Vanguard "troopers", and the unpictured Eliminators.

Several people have said there's a minigun looking weapon on one of the Vanguard troopers but I'm not seeing it.

it's hilarious how people already jump their horses calling kits ETB because they didn't show full unit size firsthand

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
I think I'm going to have to buy up chaos terminators out of fear their models go the way of those ridiculous obliterators. Often less is more, and just because you can throw more detail onto models doesn't mean you should, especially if they are monopose

Unless they are daemonically posessed terminators, i wouldnt worry. Look at the new generic chaos marines, that is a better basis.

I also wouldn't by them now anyway since most folks hate those models. You would be able to get them from ebay for a song I'm guessing.

 aracersss wrote:
it's hilarious how people already jump their horses calling kits ETB because they didn't show full unit size firsthand

ETB? Evil Twin Brother? Estimated Time of Berthing?

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ETB

 Galef wrote:
I suspect/hope that the Eliminators and Chaos Marines (that we've only seen 3 each so far) are actually ETB sets including in Shadow Spear and separately.

It just seems odd to me that they would only preview 3 of each if Shadow Spear itself would come with 5 each (the minimum unit size for each, presumably)
It would be a great way to A) replace the ancient ETB Chaos Marine set and B) get the Eliminators out there quickly.

Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

I'm guessing there are some doubles in there in the eliminators case. Like, you just swap heads on a couple to get to 5. The CSM could be the two from black Stone maybe, IDK about that one since I never saw the sprews, probably unlikely given how they normally pack those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
it's hilarious how people already jump their horses calling kits ETB because they didn't show full unit size firsthand

ETB? Evil Twin Brother? Estimated Time of Berthing?

https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ETB

Easy To Build

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Eliminators could easily be a 3-man team like aggressors and Inceptors. In fact that's what I expect, now we've seen the photo of three together. If anything I'm a little worried that the two kneeling guys look like the exact same model, so wondering if these are ETB rather than full kits.

The ETB kits have come after full kits.

But that's not true though, is it? I could have sworn Reivers & Aggressors were ETB before their full kit was released.

I agree with you though that these Battle Boxes often have unique sprues or just the sprues for the full kits. But there are several kits that are ALL ETB models.
It wouldn't be far fetched if the Eliminators & Chaos Marines shown were the same sculpts as the ETB kits that will hopefully release alongside Shadow Spear.

After all, the ETB Intercessors have "duplicates" in Dark Imperium that use the same CAD design with minor tweaks, like pistol/pouches in different spots.
The ETB Sgt and the unhelmeted Sgt from DI being an example of the exact same model/pose with slight differences on the belt.

-

I'm 99% sure all of this will be monopose kits. This is basically a new starter set. Everything is a new model.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Eliminators could easily be a 3-man team like aggressors and Inceptors. In fact that's what I expect, now we've seen the photo of three together. If anything I'm a little worried that the two kneeling guys look like the exact same model, so wondering if these are ETB rather than full kits.

The ETB kits have come after full kits.

But that's not true though, is it? I could have sworn Reivers & Aggressors were ETB before their full kit was released.

I agree with you though that these Battle Boxes often have unique sprues or just the sprues for the full kits. But there are several kits that are ALL ETB models.
It wouldn't be far fetched if the Eliminators & Chaos Marines shown were the same sculpts as the ETB kits that will hopefully release alongside Shadow Spear.

After all, the ETB Intercessors have "duplicates" in Dark Imperium that use the same CAD design with minor tweaks, like pistol/pouches in different spots.
The ETB Sgt and the unhelmeted Sgt from DI being an example

-

Also worth noting that on the AoS side the ETB models for Sequitors were released prior to full kit and one could fairly say that Soul Wars was effectively an assortment of ETB models as well. It's a bit of a different scenario from the 40k boxed games released lately since that was marketed as a true starter set (with the full rulebook,etc.) and not as a bulk-buy of extant sprues but it does mean that there is precedent for GW boxes being essentially ETB versions. Shadowspear was also likely designed after Soul Wars (and Blackstone Fortress, which was also mostly ETB-equivalent) which may be more indicative of GW's current design.

Time will tell of course.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I'm 99% sure all of this will be monopose kits. This is basically a new starter set. Everything is a new model.

except it follows vigilus 2nd book oO ... gw rarely (iff ever currently) makes a campaign boxset ETB

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Eliminators could easily be a 3-man team like aggressors and Inceptors. In fact that's what I expect, now we've seen the photo of three together. If anything I'm a little worried that the two kneeling guys look like the exact same model, so wondering if these are ETB rather than full kits.

The ETB kits have come after full kits.

But that's not true though, is it? I could have sworn Reivers & Aggressors were ETB before their full kit was released.

Reivers came before theirs--that's my bad. I forgot that they were part of the initial push coupled around the starter set and the secondary starter sets. They went up for preorder July 8th.


Codex: Space Marines came with the full kit for Reivers, Aggressors, and the Redemptor.

In October the Aggressors and Redemptors got their ETB kit.

I agree with you though that these Battle Boxes often have unique sprues or just the sprues for the full kits.

Not "unique" sprues, unless you're suggesting that the Intercessors and Reivers don't actually have 5 man Combat Squads available.

But there are several kits that are ALL ETB models.
It wouldn't be far fetched if the Eliminators & Chaos Marines shown were the same sculpts as the ETB kits that will hopefully release alongside Shadow Spear.

After all, the ETB Intercessors have "duplicates" in Dark Imperium that use the same CAD design with minor tweaks, like pistol/pouches in different spots.
The ETB Sgt and the unhelmeted Sgt from DI being an example of the exact same model/pose with slight differences on the belt.
-

And here's where I think the problem lies. You're thinking of this as a Dark Imperium analogue--it's not. I really don't expect there to be ETB kits releasing alongside of it.

At least for the snipers it doesn't mucy matter if they're easy to build or not, as the cloak limits drastically their poseabilty anyway.

Yeah Soul Wars was what I was thinking of as the precedent for this box.

The models look like they might well be easy-to-build. I’m not certain that’s the case, but for now that’s my theory. And yes, of course we’ve often have ETB versions of minis before the full kits came out – indeed that was the case for all of the initial Primaris and Death Guard releases. The core set was all ETB, with full kits released later on.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah Soul Wars was what I was thinking of as the precedent for this box.

The models look like they might well be easy-to-build. I’m not certain that’s the case, but for now that’s my theory. And yes, of course we’ve often have ETB versions of minis before the full kits came out – indeed that was the case for all of the initial Primaris and Death Guard releases. The core set was all ETB, with full kits released later on.

Okay we need to specify some stuff here:

"Easy to Build" is a specific line of things that GW releases, at a lower price point. They actually have a tab under both systems so you can sort that stuff out.
Starter sets like Dark Imperium or Soul Wars, while functionally the same concept of pushfit models...aren't considered Easy to Build. I don't know why they do this.
"Battlebox" sets like Shadowspear, Wake the Dead, Carrion Empire, etc. These are full kits bundled into a cheaper package.

They seem to have a pattern of ETB being tied to 3 units from the starter set and 1 "new" unit that will be present in the army book and a smaller starter set but not the big starter set for the initial launch.

AoS made things a bit wonky though as they launched the ETB straight off with the starter set, rather than waiting a month or so like they did with 40k.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I suspect/hope that the Eliminators and Chaos Marines (that we've only seen 3 each so far) are actually ETB sets including in Shadow Spear and separately.

It just seems odd to me that they would only preview 3 of each if Shadow Spear itself would come with 5 each (the minimum unit size for each, presumably)
It would be a great way to A) replace the ancient ETB Chaos Marine set and B) get the Eliminators out there quickly.

We know there's at least two more CSM that didn't get previewed but were in the video. One had what looked like a meltagun and one had the same helmet as the boltgun armed CSM from the photo preview, but a box instead of a magazine for the ammo feed.

Actually, I'd be quite excited if Eliminators were a 3-min unit. It would set them apart from Scouts and emphasis the "rarity" of them
I'm not sure how I feel about them being Troops or Elites, though. If they are Troops, I'd expect them to start replacing Scouts and even Intercessors as the default Battalion filler.
If they are Elites, I could see them never hitting the table at all unless they have some amazing rules.

-

Them being a 3 minimum unit would be...interesting. I could see them being a max of 3, but being able to deploy and operate separately once the game starts...but I guess they could also just be units of 3 ala Aggressors or Inceptors.

I'm thinking it's just that there's a 'unit upgrade' option for both items they don't want to show off just yet.

If you look at pg 9 of this thread, there is a screen cap of the CSM with drum mag bolter next to the previewed trio. I am pretty sure all 4 shown there have different helmets which is great!

Voss wrote:
Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

Yes, they are. Anything purchased that then just sits around in one's home or garage is a waste of natural resources that were not put to any purpose. Not to preach, but all humans must dramatically reduce their consumption. Recycling doesn't solve everything, either. The process still requires energy, does not have a %100 conversion rate from used plastic to a new product, and can only be done so many times before the plastic has to be thrown away.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

I'm thinking those are 'sniper rifles' and not bolters, so maybe they will work like "Sniper Rifles with SIA" rather than having their own variety.

Has anyone commented that the same image that shows the additional CSM with the drum mag also shows a CSM holding a melta gun in the background? So that's actually at least a 5-man squad for CSM. By inference, we can probably expect Eliminators to also come in a squad of 5 (or more).

Also, I'm nearly positive based on the composition of main art image that we've seen that this image has been cropped so as not to show a significant portion of the Primaris force on the left side—probably a vehicle (or vehicles) of some kind. I don't have a lot of hard support for that—just an artist's hunch based on the way the forces arranged in the frame and the odd ways certain elements and figures break the frame edges. The only solid proof I have is that the opener shows at least a little more of the left-hand side of the artwork than the static image does—like you can see a few more of the Eliminator's waaaay in the back just above Mr. Beardy's raised bolt rifle.

 Kanluwen wrote:
[There's a Lieutenant/Captain(I'm saying Lieutenant personally) in the art as "Primarisized Telion", the Librarian, the Vanguard "troopers", and the unpictured Eliminators.

Several people have said there's a minigun looking weapon on one of the Vanguard troopers but I'm not seeing it.

The "minigun" looks like a bolter with a lot of muzzle flash to my eyes. I do think "Primarisized Telion" is a Captain as he has the chest clasp and aiguillette's that GW like to use on SM Captains. But I think there is a Lieutenant in the picture as well. The Riever/Vanguard chap just below "Telion" is sporting a Lieutenant's emblem on his left shoulder.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

I'm thinking those are 'sniper rifles' and not bolters, so maybe they will work like "Sniper Rifles with SIA" rather than having their own variety.

I think you're right. Though I hope these guys can deal with HQs with higher than T3 though

 Kanluwen wrote:
And here's where I think the problem lies. You're thinking of this as a Dark Imperium analogue--it's not. I really don't expect there to be ETB kits releasing alongside of it.

I wasn't really thinking of it as a analogue starter kit, but just using the similarities between models in DI and the ETB as precedence.
If Shadow Spear only contains 3 Eliminators, then I would expect those same CAD sculpts to be the ETB Eliminators, if they have them at all.

The same could be true for the Chaos Marines. The 3 previewed could be used for the (hopefully inevitable) ETB set, with any other Chaos Marines, such as a Melta carrier, being exclusive to the Shadow Spear or eventual updated Chaos Marine full kit.

At any rate, I will only be getting the Eliminators if they are ETB and units of 3. If they end up being units of 5 minimum, I'll pass

-

Good catch on the Lieutenant's icon--the most interesting part is that I don't see anyone else with the 'vanes' from Grav-Chutes other than him! He also doesn't have the 'antennae' that the other infantry have.
Same with clocking the Eliminator up above 'Telion'.

I wonder if maybe these guys will have some kind of 'sabotage' ability like Lias Issodon used to have?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And here's where I think the problem lies. You're thinking of this as a Dark Imperium analogue--it's not. I really don't expect there to be ETB kits releasing alongside of it.

I wasn't really thinking of it as a analogue starter kit, but just using the similarities between models in DI and the ETB as precedence.
If Shadow Spear only contains 3 Eliminators, then I would expect those same CAD sculpts to be the ETB Eliminators, if they have them at all.

The same could be true for the Chaos Marines. The 3 previewed could be used for the (hopefully inevitable) ETB set, with any other Chaos Marines, such as a Melta carrier, being exclusive to the Shadow Spear or eventual updated Chaos Marine full kit.

At any rate, I will only be getting the Eliminators if they are ETB and units of 3. If they end up being units of 5 minimum, I'll pass
-

But WHY would you expect any of this?

They flatout clocked it as full kits from the outset. They're not ETBs.

A deep striking Lieutenant would be quite welcome for Successor Chapter armies that are 100% Primaris for fluff reasons so those Grave-Chute vanes give me hope.

Since they specifically said "Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead," all of which are 100% full kit releases, I was surprised when people here said they thought these would be easy to build kits.

 Kanluwen wrote:

But WHY would you expect any of this?

I only expect it for the Chaos Marines. It's getting tiresome that all the awesome new CSM are in large boxes and not in a kit of their own. So for sure they need a full kit, but than the ETB needs to be updated accordingly. It would be weird to have these new scale Marines that look very different to the Chaos ETB Marines around at the same time.

I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

-

yeah I don't expect these to be ETB unless they come with an updated rulebook. What people are forgetting about the recent AoS release is that it coincided with 2nd Edition release, and came with a rulebook.

This just seems like a really nice battle box. Can't wait to see the rest of the models!

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Sterling191 wrote:
Teaser fluff aint rules.

Occam's Razor.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

No one said anything about actual rules. This is all we currently have. You can assume as much as you want from it or you can ignore it completely if that suits you better.

 Darkseid wrote:
Why do some players want Oldmarines to be gone so badly?

Given the different aesthetics and battlefield roles, I think there is space for both Oldmarines and Primaris to co-exist.

The whole debate sounds more like a case of 'I told you that evil GeeDubz is screwing you over', than actually support for either of the marines.

I think in a lot of cases it's less "I want old marines to go away" and more "if old marines are going away I want to know it sooner rather than later" or failing that "I want to know that when old marines go away I'll still be able to use my Landraiders/Predators/Storm Ravens".

Blastaar wrote:

Voss wrote:
Models people buy and keep but never paint don't qualify as 'environmental waste'

And Plastic sprue bits are hardly unrecyclable.

Yes, they are. Anything purchased that then just sits around in one's home or garage is a waste of natural resources that were not put to any purpose. Not to preach, but all humans must dramatically reduce their consumption. Recycling doesn't solve everything, either. The process still requires energy, does not have a %100 conversion rate from used plastic to a new product, and can only be done so many times before the plastic has to be thrown away.

The purpose is to look nice. You think I'm ever going to play with the Gundam models I built? Nope.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Then they are a hard pass for me. If I want 5-man SM snipers, I'll get Scouts. The box is undoubtedly cheaper than whatever price 5 Primaris will be.

-

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

And yet reivers were called terror troops and have a rule that affects morale....

Hope they are not better than Vindicare's or they boost them in the new mini dex.

On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

 Mr Morden wrote:
Hope they are not better than Vindicare's or they boost them in the new mini dex.

I know this probably ain't the place to ask, but do we actually know anything about this mini-dex yet?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

Needle sniper rifles still exist (such as the Ratling snipers IIRC), but some are definitely not, like the long-las used by most Imperial Guard snipers.

Space Marine Scout snipers appear to be a laser weapon of some kind too, although they may be a needle rifle. Obviously Stalker snipers are bolt weapons.

In the far future, there are many forms of sniper

 Haighus wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
On the fluff/rules side of the argument, carrying the right toxins for the job was what gave snipers in previous editions the ability to always wound things on fixed numbers, rather then using the S/T system.

I don't believe toxins were mentioned much around the old snipers?

It was 4+, whether you were an SM scout or an eldar ranger (and rangers used laser weapons).

Back in 2nd, when they were Needle Sniper Rifles, they fired crystalized toxin slivers. I think that was carried forward, but a quick survey of my books didn’t find it.

Needle sniper rifles still exist (such as the Ratling snipers IIRC), but some are definitely not, like the long-las used by most Imperial Guard snipers.

Space Marine Scout snipers appear to be a laser weapon of some kind too, although they may be a needle rifle. Obviously Stalker snipers are bolt weapons.

In the far future, there are many forms of sniper

Needle sniper rifles actually used a laser to punch small holes in armor and then project the toxins. Used by Eldar, Marines, and Ratlings according to the 2nd ed wargear book.

 Nevelon wrote:


Needle sniper rifles actually used a laser to punch small holes in armor and then project the toxins. Used by Eldar, Marines, and Ratlings according to the 2nd ed wargear book.

Which is why I thought the Marine snipers may be needle rifles- they have a power feed, but no obvious ammo feed. However, the power feed may be powering the laser part of a needle rifle, rather than a pure laser, and the needle ammo feed may just be subtle or something. IG uses long-lases, which are definitely pure laser- they are modified lasguns- excepting Ratlings, who don't use the long-las- their rifles are definitely needle rifles.

Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

If I was a betting man, I’d guess Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

That is rampant speculation based on nothing but the twisted ravings of the voices in my head. YMMV. Don’t quote me on that (unless I’m right, of course )

 Galef wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't "expect" the Snipers to be ETB, but I WANT them to be. I don't want to buy a unit of 5-10 models went all I want is 3.

What if they come in minimum units of 5?

Then they are a hard pass for me. If I want 5-man SM snipers, I'll get Scouts. The box is undoubtedly cheaper than whatever price 5 Primaris will be.

-

So far GW's been pretty good about giving us new units that occupy a similer niche to old marines well not outright replacing the old units. I expect this will continue and the primaris snipers will fill a similer niche to scout snipers well having their own place as well. that said there's been demand for power armor snipers for awhile so..

as for damage I'm expecting them to be Stalker bolt rifles with specialty ammo. this is the minimum, and might be alright depending on the speciality ammo and the points cost of the unit

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Agreed. They same base rifle body is there with a new barrel, scope, magazine, and stock. I look at the bolt rifle as the same sort of thing as the M16/AR-15 family of rifles. There are sniper variants, carbines, and the like. The upper and lower receivers are largely unchanged, much like on the bolt rifle.

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

Most of the weapons that Belisarius Cawl designed are very standardized. The difference between Bolt Rifles is often tiny, with a swap in magazine or scope. The difference in the Plasma Incinerators are similarly small, save for the Heavy option that has a backpack attachment. The bolt pistols that the Primaris range uses all share themes and styles that all seems to be based a short hop from the regular Bolt Rifle.

So, that said, I'd expect other variations that the Primaris use to be similarly standardized. I just hope we also get a few other types of weapons. There's a marine in the background that looks to be wielding some sort of heavy weapon with a big round barrel discharging some energy. I hope that it's either a Flamer or Melta equivalent, something to give the Primaris some extra punch against the things they struggle with.

Either way, I'm sure this will help shore up some of the weaknesses of All-Primaris armies. Would be great if the rumors are true and we finally get a light transport with them too.

 Nevelon wrote:
Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

Seems pretty underwhelming, so it's in line with how sniper weapons have been statted historically.

I won't bet against it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

Seems pretty underwhelming, so it's in line with how sniper weapons have been statted historically.

I won't bet against it.

It will probably be longer range and have better AP than that. The Stalker Bolt Rifle is AP-2, I would bet the new bolt sniper rifle will have a -2. Especially if these guys are elites. I don't know if the wounding on 2+ is necessary either. That is the point of the mortal wounds.

GW saw how well horus heresy sold, and now primaris are turning into a full legion setup.

It also makes fluff sense considering the mandate he was working under was pre-codex as well.

what's next? we've now got recon/seekers, line tacticals (intercessors), special weapons units (hellblasters), and a jump element (inceptors), as well as the land raider equivalent (repulsor)

just flipping through the red book, core elements we're missing are a rhino-equivalent, and a veteran equivalent

Surprised that some want these kits to be ETB. I pray that they are multiparts and full of customisation (though I seriously doubt it)

 streetsamurai wrote:
Surprised that some want these kits to be ETB. I pray that they are multiparts and full of customisation (though I seriously doubt it)

That hasn't been the trend with any of the Primaris releases so far. Seems odd that they'd start now.

 Nevelon wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Well these sniper rifles seem based on the bolt rifle. I imagine they use specialist ammo like deathwatch - though perhaps with other options.

If I was a betting man, I’d guess Heavy 1, 36” range, always wounds on a 2+, AP 1, D1 targets characters, and MW’s on a 6+ to wound.

That is rampant speculation based on nothing but the twisted ravings of the voices in my head. YMMV. Don’t quote me on that (unless I’m right, of course )

I’d bet closer to d3 Damage myself.

I like the etb's buy 2 when you buy a 10 marine squad and with the bits you can make a ton of different poses. same goes for the space marine heroes.

I want a cheap way to get troops on the field. it helps me build up my nephews force while saving some $. he said he doesnt care if they look exactly alike.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
GW saw how well horus heresy sold, and now primaris are turning into a full legion setup.

It also makes fluff sense considering the mandate he was working under was pre-codex as well.

what's next? we've now got recon/seekers, line tacticals (intercessors), special weapons units (hellblasters), and a jump element (inceptors), as well as the land raider equivalent (repulsor)

just flipping through the red book, core elements we're missing are a rhino-equivalent, and a veteran equivalent

Any primaris bikes yet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
I like the etb's buy 2 when you buy a 10 marine squad and with the bits you can make a ton of different poses. same goes for the space marine heroes.

I want a cheap way to get troops on the field. it helps me build up my nephews force while saving some $. he said he doesnt care if they look exactly alike.

Agreed on the cheap part and I also like the EZ part.
Quick to build, paint and field.

I don’t mind easy to build and repeated poses so much, but I dislike the lack of options in them. Ended up getting a full Reavers box so I could use the grapnels from it on the etb ones.

EDIT - nvm I am dumb

 fraser1191 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

And yet reivers were called terror troops and have a rule that affects morale....

I was at the seminar, they said they will have Hellfire rounds and other types as well. ala Deathwatch.

Khalan wrote:
I was at the seminar, they said they will have Hellfire rounds and other types as well. ala Deathwatch.

So they take special ammo away from sternguard and make it DW exclusive, then give it to the new guys?

Are you sure that’s not just for the DW version of the snipers and the codex guys just get a basic profile?

An option removed from Old Marines and subsequently given to New Marines?

Where's the surprised Pikachu when you need him?

Khalan wrote:

I was at the seminar, they said they will have Hellfire rounds and other types as well. ala Deathwatch.

Iiinteresting. Thank you very much.

None of us know what’s even in the box, let alone its rules. We’re all speculating for now – but based on what we’ve seen before.

I do think that it looks like these are easy to build kits. It’s very hard to tell nowadays though, as for the most part easy to build kits are now very good. And the full kits are now less poseable than they once were, with legs designed to fit onto specific torsos for the Primaris guys, for example. The difference between easy to build and full kits is much reduced nowadays anyway. I use the Primaris guys from the starter set alongside the full kit ones and you’d have no idea which was which without picking them up.

Both easy to build and the new more restrictive full kits actually allow for more realistic poses than the traditional multi-part kits let you do. The flat waist joint on oldmarines means you can’t tilt the model’s shoulders relative to its hips, making realistic poses much harder to achieve. Poses like you see on the chaos marine sergeant wouldn’t have been easily possible with oldmarines. If he’s a multi-part kit I’m curious to know how he fits together.

If you look at those three chaos marines it’s pretty clear to me that they don’t fit together like oldmarines. Where are the joins? The guy with the bolter has his gun square to his body in a way that’s common to ETB kits. The running guy has a knife with a handle moulded to his waist and stomach.

Actually, GW is great at cutting minis so it’s possible that these are multipart and I’m just not seeing how they’ve done it. So I’m not sure about this, I’m just saying what it looks like to me. My impression is that these are extremely well-designed monopose minis.

The other thing is the sheer number of models we seem to be getting in the set. So there are three marine characters on the box art, all of them new. Chaos have that spider thing, the sorcerer, CSMs obliterators and what looks like a possessed CSM very prominently in the bottom right of the picture. It’s potentially so many models that it would be weird if they were anything but easy to build.

I hope I’m wrong because I prefer full kits, but that’s what it looks like to me.

Mandragola wrote:
None of us know what’s even in the box, let alone its rules. We’re all speculating for now – but based on what we’ve seen before.

I do think that it looks like these are easy to build kits. It’s very hard to tell nowadays though, as for the most part easy to build kits are now very good. And the full kits are now less poseable than they once were, with legs designed to fit onto specific torsos for the Primaris guys, for example. The difference between easy to build and full kits is much reduced nowadays anyway. I use the Primaris guys from the starter set alongside the full kit ones and you’d have no idea which was which without picking them up.

Both easy to build and the new more restrictive full kits actually allow for more realistic poses than the traditional multi-part kits let you do. The flat waist joint on oldmarines means you can’t tilt the model’s shoulders relative to its hips, making realistic poses much harder to achieve. Poses like you see on the chaos marine sergeant wouldn’t have been easily possible with oldmarines. If he’s a multi-part kit I’m curious to know how he fits together.

If you look at those three chaos marines it’s pretty clear to me that they don’t fit together like oldmarines. Where are the joins? The guy with the bolter has his gun square to his body in a way that’s common to ETB kits. The running guy has a knife with a handle moulded to his waist and stomach.

Actually, GW is great at cutting minis so it’s possible that these are multipart and I’m just not seeing how they’ve done it. So I’m not sure about this, I’m just saying what it looks like to me. My impression is that these are extremely well-designed monopose minis.

The other thing is the sheer number of models we seem to be getting in the set. So there are three marine characters on the box art, all of them new. Chaos have that spider thing, the sorcerer, CSMs obliterators and what looks like a possessed CSM very prominently in the bottom right of the picture. It’s potentially so many models that it would be weird if they were anything but easy to build.

I hope I’m wrong because I prefer full kits, but that’s what it looks like to me.

I'm not convinced.
For ETB kits, they would actually are way to few models unless we have multiple units of the Reivers 2.0 and CSM.
And even then, it would have to include the full BRB to pull equal with Dark Imperium or the AoS starter sets.
And if it would include the BRB, they would market it as the next starter and not the next battle box.

Khalan wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Brother Xeones wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Eliminators are gonna have ammo types. I wonder if those will be somewhere along the lines of SiA and if these guys will have like 7 ammo types when in Deathwatch

What's your source on this beyond teaser fluff?

Warhammer Community LVO article: "Eliminators are dead-eye snipers. From concealed positions, these expert marksmen target and take out key enemy leaders, utilising a range of exotic and deadly ammunition tailored to their target. No heretic lord or xenos commander is safe."

Teaser fluff aint rules.

And yet reivers were called terror troops and have a rule that affects morale....

I was at the seminar, they said they will have Hellfire rounds and other types as well. ala Deathwatch.

I'm skeptical because of how Sternguard were fixed.

At least they'll be easier to make fit in Deathwatch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm skeptical because of how Sternguard were fixed.

At least they'll be easier to make fit in Deathwatch.

I've been wondering, personally, if we're going to see a new CSM and Space Marines book that addresses some of the wonkiness those books have compared to newer ones. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sternguard get SIA again, if not with SIA returning as a unit perk at least a Stratagem.

I'm also wondering if the Eliminaters having access to those rounds is as a Stratagem.

Like GW will buff old toys with new toys to sell... ;-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Like GW will buff old toys with new toys to sell... ;-)

Oh, you mean like they literally just did with Vigilus' Victrix Guard Specialist Detachment that calls out Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans?

Yes yes we know, "hurr they won't buff old stuff with new stuff to sell!"...but what exactly is competing with the Sternguard and Vanguard from the Primaris range?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Like GW will buff old toys with new toys to sell... ;-)

Oh, you mean like they literally just did with Vigilus' Victrix Guard Specialist Detachment that calls out Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans?

Yes yes we know, "hurr they won't buff old stuff with new stuff to sell!"...but what exactly is competing with the Sternguard and Vanguard from the Primaris range?

Gotta love a conspiracy theory. Trouble with this one is that GW routinely buffs old stuff as well as new. The points changes in CA buffed loads of old SM stuff, and potentially made land raiders usable (though probably not).

GW's commercial interest is obviously best served by producing the best overall game possible, so that people like their product and buy more of it. They cunningly force us to buy the new shiny stuff because it's new, shiny, and better every time.

Honestly, the funniest concept with the whole thing is that it implies Primaris aren't actually "Meh" outside of Deathwatch or a few select units/builds.

Every time GW releases a new model that's good the cry goes out "codex creep!" "they always make new stuff better!" But when the release a new model that's bad the same people don't seem to notice. There is not really a trend to new stuff being better overall, people just confirmation bias away evidence otherwise. Last I checked those new Ork vehicles aren't sweeping the meta.

or they say 'this is rubbish, far too expensive for the points, why would I buy this and not X'

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Every time GW releases a new model that's good the cry goes out "codex creep!" "they always make new stuff better!" But when the release a new model that's bad the same people don't seem to notice. There is not really a trend to new stuff being better overall, people just confirmation bias away evidence otherwise. Last I checked those new Ork vehicles aren't sweeping the meta.

Yeah, the idea that they deliberately make new stuff awesome to sell has never held water, as there’s easily as much stuff that’s been crap when it was released. They just aren’t fantastic at balance.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Every time GW releases a new model that's good the cry goes out "codex creep!" "they always make new stuff better!" But when the release a new model that's bad the same people don't seem to notice. There is not really a trend to new stuff being better overall, people just confirmation bias away evidence otherwise. Last I checked those new Ork vehicles aren't sweeping the meta.

or the much maligned Primaris.

so, is Abbaddon gonna be IN shadowspear? because if so this is easily my most wanted set in ages

BrianDavion wrote:
so, is Abbaddon gonna be IN shadowspear? because if so this is easily my most wanted set in ages

It is unlikely that he will be in Shadowspear, but if that really is Telion and not just a generic Captain that happens to look like him/has a head option for him...it's possible.

The battleboxes have tended towards generic characters, albeit with names being given to them in the box itself but that doesn't tend to carry over to rules.


With those caveats out of the way, I'm thinking that the way it will work is:
Shadowspear---->Vigilus Book II+Abaddon
Wake the Dead went up on September 29th while Vigilus went up on December 8th.

He will not be in the box set; at the LVO preview they called out the librarian and master of possession as the opposing leaders.

Also, y'know, they'd have probably put him front and center in the promo art...

I'll be honest this box is gonna be a hard sell for me unless either bikes, a small transport, and or SS melee units are included.

The snipers aren't game changing(so far) and neither is the librarian unless he has new powers. I also don't see the new troop choice being significantly better since they would defeat the point of intercessors. I also don't play normal chaos so the half is of no interest.

Umbros wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Every time GW releases a new model that's good the cry goes out "codex creep!" "they always make new stuff better!" But when the release a new model that's bad the same people don't seem to notice. There is not really a trend to new stuff being better overall, people just confirmation bias away evidence otherwise. Last I checked those new Ork vehicles aren't sweeping the meta.

or the much maligned Primaris.

But the 140 point Squigbuggy still takes the cake


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll be honest this box is gonna be a hard sell for me unless either bikes, a small transport, and or SS melee units are included.

The snipers aren't game changing(so far) and neither is the librarian unless he has new powers. I also don't see the new troop choice being significantly better since they would defeat the point of intercessors. I also don't play normal chaos so the half is of no interest.

Those Vanguard Marines sound more like Elites to me... Still, they seem to carry some kind of sword so if they're troop choices my Space Puppies will rejoice. Will just have to outflank them or wait until a Primaris Rhino EQ arrives (which it will sooner or later).

Still surprised that there would be a new Possessed kit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Still surprised that there would be a new Possessed kit.

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll be honest this box is gonna be a hard sell for me unless either bikes, a small transport, and or SS melee units are included.

I'm really not expecting bikes or Storm Shield toting units(why in the hell would you think they would be in a box that seems to be aimed at a more "Scout/Infiltration" angle?). I could see a small-ish transport or something.

The snipers aren't game changing(so far) and neither is the librarian unless he has new powers.

We don't know anything about the snipers. Saying they "aren't game changing" is way beyond jumping the gun.

Librarian is implied to have powers that synergize with the Vanguard's role--and more to the point, him having a Camo Cloak(which is confirmed I might add) does bring a slightly new and interesting element into things.

I also don't see the new troop choice being significantly better since they would defeat the point of intercessors.

I'd expect it to be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Still surprised that there would be a new Possessed kit.

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

Well possesed has been kinda "meh" for a while now and as it looks like they plan to rework chaos space marines in general maybe they decided that possesed deserved some love for a change.

BrianDavion wrote:

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

I'm wondering if maybe it's not a new Possessed kit but rather some kind of character to add a bit of an 'assassin' to CSM.

 Kanluwen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

I'm wondering if maybe it's not a new Possessed kit but rather some kind of character to add a bit of an 'assassin' to CSM.

If we're getting updated CSM, Possessed are second in line for a makeover, right after Terminators. It could be a character, but given the way he's placed on the cover, he probably isn't and we REALLY DO NEED better Possessed.

Sotahullu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Still surprised that there would be a new Possessed kit.

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

Well possesed has been kinda "meh" for a while now and as it looks like they plan to rework chaos space marines in general maybe they decided that possesed deserved some love for a change.

Yeah, Possessed have been struggling rules and model wise since I started playing chaos with the 3.0 codex.

It's also worth noting that Possessed have been reflecting GW's rules philosophies through the editions. From the rather random but vanilla ones in the 3.0 to the highly custumisable Possessed in 3.5 and back to a lot of randomness until editon 8.0.

I wonder which route GW will take them this time. Despite being a critic of the 3.5 codex; I enjoyed that iteration even if most additional mutations were overprised. At least the -2 morale modifier of the demonic visage could be fun in this edition, particularly with Nightlords.

You'd think that Havos, who have never had a plastic kit, would be more important than a second plastic Possessed kit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You'd think that Havos, who have never had a plastic kit, would be more important than a second plastic Possessed kit.

You can make Havoks out of CSM and a weapon sprue. You cannot make Possessed out of CSM and a mutation sprue. GW tried and failed.

But you can make Possessed out of... the Possessed kit!

Shocking, I know. Whereas there are no plastic Chaos heavy weapons outside of the Heavy Bolter.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

I'm wondering if maybe it's not a new Possessed kit but rather some kind of character to add a bit of an 'assassin' to CSM.

If we're getting updated CSM, Possessed are second in line for a makeover, right after Terminators. It could be a character, but given the way he's placed on the cover, he probably isn't and we REALLY DO NEED better Possessed.

I'll agree with there needing to be better Possessed, it just occurred to me that we don't see the Possessed repeated anywhere else on the art and the placement/ focus seems similar to what now has been identified as a Lieutenant for the Primaris side of things:


It might be reading too much into things, but it looks a bit lonely for the Arch Possessor to be the only character.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But you can make Possessed out of... the Possessed kit!

Shocking, I know. Whereas there are no plastic Chaos heavy weapons outside of the Heavy Bolter.

The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

could be that they're using the new kit as an excuse to revamp the unit?

I'm wondering if maybe it's not a new Possessed kit but rather some kind of character to add a bit of an 'assassin' to CSM.

If we're getting updated CSM, Possessed are second in line for a makeover, right after Terminators. It could be a character, but given the way he's placed on the cover, he probably isn't and we REALLY DO NEED better Possessed.

I'll agree with there needing to be better Possessed, it just occurred to me that we don't see the Possessed repeated anywhere else on the art and the placement/ focus seems similar to what now has been identified as a Lieutenant for the Primaris side of things:

Spoiler:

It might be reading too much into things, but it looks a bit lonely for the Arch Possessor to be the only character.

In the video theres a frame with the master of possession flanked by two possessed bodyguards. I think we may just get two possessed, along with the MoP to mirror the three SM characters in the box.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

Why doesn't it hold up? And replacing an existing plastic kit is equally as important as kit for a unit that's never had a plastic kit?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

Why doesn't it hold up? And replacing an existing plastic kit is equally as important as kit for a unit that's never had a plastic kit?

Havocs are just CSM with heavy weapons. CSM have a plastic kit and now will get a new one. Marine heavy weapons exist, you can even order packs of HH era ones if you so desire. The possessed are a really cool concept which the old kit didn't do justice. Getting a new kit for them is interesting, Havocs would be boring.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll be honest this box is gonna be a hard sell for me unless either bikes, a small transport, and or SS melee units are included.

I'm really not expecting bikes or Storm Shield toting units(why in the hell would you think they would be in a box that seems to be aimed at a more "Scout/Infiltration" angle?). I could see a small-ish transport or something.

The snipers aren't game changing(so far) and neither is the librarian unless he has new powers.

We don't know anything about the snipers. Saying they "aren't game changing" is way beyond jumping the gun.

Librarian is implied to have powers that synergize with the Vanguard's role--and more to the point, him having a Camo Cloak(which is confirmed I might add) does bring a slightly new and interesting element into things.

I also don't see the new troop choice being significantly better since they would defeat the point of intercessors.

I'd expect it to be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.

It's more of a wishlist than an expectation. Plus our vanguard veterans are melee based so there's that as reinforcement.

As far as the snipers, yeah I'm jumping the gun a bit. I know they are probably going to have different ammos, fingers crossed they'll have shield breaker ammo. I like them but for me they need to be able to punch above units with T4

One thing I noticed is that it looks like one of the snipers has a devastator chevron on his knee which may mean they'll be able to give decent fire support against a range of targets

With the librarian it takes more than a camo cloak to get me excited.

And I guess the new troop choice confuses me more than the others cause I feel intercessors have most bases covered and I'm really curious what they are gonna do with them

JSG wrote:
In the video theres a frame with the master of possession flanked by two possessed bodyguards. I think we may just get two possessed, along with the MoP to mirror the three SM characters in the box.

Now that you mention it; I wonder if GW would change the portrial of possessed completely, and make them a small but extremely strong unit, competing with the likes of custodes; just as they do in HH.

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

Why doesn't it hold up? And replacing an existing plastic kit is equally as important as kit for a unit that's never had a plastic kit?

Havocs are just CSM with heavy weapons. CSM have a plastic kit and now will get a new one. Marine heavy weapons exist, you can even order packs of HH era ones if you so desire. The possessed are a really cool concept which the old kit didn't do justice. Getting a new kit for them is interesting, Havocs would be boring.

Havocs would be great, and are a staple of the chaos army list. They've never had a plastic incarnation, making them a good kit to do.

Possessed are debatably a cool concept, and have gone through repeated plastic incarnations that somehow never manage to do them justice (and would be really subjective anyway). I wouldn't hold my breath for yet another one, or expect it to suddenly do them justice if GW does do it.

Chaos frankly needs lots of stuff, possessed are so far down the list they can't even see daylight.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You'd think that Havos, who have never had a plastic kit, would be more important than a second plastic Possessed kit.

While I have long admitted to myself that speculating on why GW does what it does, either in any particular case or multiple cases taken together to discern a pattern, is a roadmap to crazytown I could offer a theory that in this case that the designers went to the accountants and said "we have new designs for Havocs, Possessed, Obliterators and everything else we want to do" and the accountants said "we only have the money to do everything else you want to do and two other kits and since Havocs and Obliterators are both heavy weapons units you don't want to do both of them so pick one to do with Possessed." But again, roadmap, crazytown.

Still got 2 unassembled possessed kits I never got around to building cos they have sucked for 3 editions!

The thing I wonder is if these new CSM will be compatible with stuff like the Noise Marine upgrades. If not, that will really suck. EC are my favorite Traitor Legion. Having newer and better plastics to go with them would be cool.

Also, Havocs could easily be done with a new weapon sprue. Which is exactly why GW probably won't make one. It would make converting way too simple. Look at Primaris Hellblasters and Intercessors. Those could have been accomplished with one base body kit and then a separate weapon kit. It would likely be cheaper to manufacture, but with separate kits, GW can transfer the cost to the customer and then pocket all additional profits.

I almost wonder if the Possessed in the picture is actually a Possessed Character. If the Primaris have two Characters, perhaps CSM will as well.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

Why doesn't it hold up? And replacing an existing plastic kit is equally as important as kit for a unit that's never had a plastic kit?

Because the models look awful. And yes, in my opinion, replacing a bad plastic kit is as important as a kit for a non plastic unit.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t get havocs, I’m saying we should have both. Personally, I’m much more excited by the prospect of a new possessed kit than I am havocs.

I'd wager that if we get a new multi part chaos marine box then legion upgrade will come out similar to the chapter ones, or possibly a new box built off them, so emperor's chumps will get something, actually I take that back, it's probably more likely noise marines will just get a new sculpt with another new unit, a dual kit basically.

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs are just CSM with heavy weapons.

And?

Devastators are just Marines with heavy weapons, and they've had two different plastic kits and before that 3 different metal kits. Four if you count the original Long Fang kit.

 Crimson wrote:
CSM have a plastic kit and now will get a new one.

Again, and? None of this has any relation to a plastic Havoc kit.

 Crimson wrote:
Marine heavy weapons exist...

Sure. Let me just gather together all my plastic Devastator Autocannons I have spare...

 Crimson wrote:
...you can even order packs of HH era ones if you so desire.

Yeah, 'cause that's what GW wants. A new (slightly different scale) Chaos Marine kit either using mini-Marine Dev weapons or FW HH weapons... as Havocs.

 Crimson wrote:
The possessed are a really cool concept which the old kit didn't do justice.

Again, people keep saying things like "doesn't hold up" or "didn't do justice" without actually explaining what that means.

Havocs = No plastic kit.
Possessed = Have a plastic kit.

Why is the latter in more need of a plastic kit than the one that doesn't have one???

 Kinetochore wrote:
Still got 2 unassembled possessed kits I never got around to building cos they have sucked for 3 editions!

But that's the rules, not the miniatures.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The thing I wonder is if these new CSM will be compatible with stuff like the Noise Marine upgrades. If not, that will really suck.

I doubt that's going to be much a problem after Slaanesh gets their turn in the sun.

GW made possessed in the new design space of 40k. Possessed , daemon engines and obliterators probably fit the new design space. A long with recent helbrutes, maulerfiends, heldrakes and forgefiends. Havocs are spikey marine devastators, they are probably not where they want to take CSM. They don't even care about non-spikey space marine havocs, they made a new space marine that does non-spikey marine havoc stuff.

CSM supported by daemon fused space marine and vehicles is where CSM seem to be going.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The possessed kit just doesn’t hold up. I’d say they’re equally as important.

Why doesn't it hold up? And replacing an existing plastic kit is equally as important as kit for a unit that's never had a plastic kit?

This is why they don't hold up.

While I agree that Possessed don't hold up and need a redesgin; Havocs must be one of the oldest infantry kits in GWs lineup; right next to the Berzerkers.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
GW made possessed in the new design space of 40k. Possessed , daemon engines and obliterators probably fit the new design space.

I'd love to see an new Defiler in the quality and stile of the new Chaos Tick.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The thing I wonder is if these new CSM will be compatible with stuff like the Noise Marine upgrades. If not, that will really suck. EC are my favorite Traitor Legion. Having newer and better plastics to go with them would be cool.

I wouldn't expect that...I would expect an Emperor's Children kit down the line.

Also, Havocs could easily be done with a new weapon sprue. Which is exactly why GW probably won't make one. It would make converting way too simple. Look at Primaris Hellblasters and Intercessors. Those could have been accomplished with one base body kit and then a separate weapon kit. It would likely be cheaper to manufacture, but with separate kits, GW can transfer the cost to the customer and then pocket all additional profits.

Or alternatively, they did them as two separate kits because we're not talking about a single weapon in a squad but rather a whole squad outfitted with the weapon.

I almost wonder if the Possessed in the picture is actually a Possessed Character. If the Primaris have two Characters, perhaps CSM will as well.

There's 3 Primaris characters.

The foremost model(carbine, grav-chute pack, bared head with respirator) has a LT insignia.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Havocs = No plastic kit.
Possessed = Have a plastic kit.

What does it matter if something has plastic kit, if it is ugly? What use I have for ugly models?
Havocs are boring, but with the new CSM cool looking ones will be easy to convert, whereas the Possessed are interesting but the current models look bad, thus they need new ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
GW made possessed in the new design space of 40k. Possessed , daemon engines and obliterators probably fit the new design space. A long with recent helbrutes, maulerfiends, heldrakes and forgefiends. Havocs are spikey marine devastators, they are probably not where they want to take CSM. They don't even care about non-spikey space marine havocs, they made a new space marine that does non-spikey marine havoc stuff.

CSM supported by daemon fused space marine and vehicles is where CSM seem to be going.

Which is a good directions, as it differentiates them from they loyalists.

Darkseid wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
GW made possessed in the new design space of 40k. Possessed , daemon engines and obliterators probably fit the new design space.

I'd love to see an new Defiler in the quality and stile of the new Chaos Tick.

I would buy at least 2 defilers if they re did them in the new style. Because you want to talk about a model that didn't age well? The defiler is probably in my top 3.

Crimson wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
GW made possessed in the new design space of 40k. Possessed , daemon engines and obliterators probably fit the new design space. A long with recent helbrutes, maulerfiends, heldrakes and forgefiends. Havocs are spikey marine devastators, they are probably not where they want to take CSM. They don't even care about non-spikey space marine havocs, they made a new space marine that does non-spikey marine havoc stuff.

CSM supported by daemon fused space marine and vehicles is where CSM seem to be going.

Which is a good directions, as it differentiates them from they loyalists.

I didn't like CSM until the DG redesign. If they make CSM something more than blander loyalists then I will be buying a new army lol.

 Crimson wrote:
What does it matter if something has plastic kit, if it is ugly? ...
Havocs are boring

That's all subjective.

What's not subjective is that one unit already has a kit, and the other does not.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What does it matter if something has plastic kit, if it is ugly? ...
Havocs are boring

That's all subjective.

What's not subjective is that one unit already has a kit, and the other does not.

Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The thing I wonder is if these new CSM will be compatible with stuff like the Noise Marine upgrades. If not, that will really suck. EC are my favorite Traitor Legion. Having newer and better plastics to go with them would be cool.

I wouldn't expect that...I would expect an Emperor's Children kit down the line.

Also, Havocs could easily be done with a new weapon sprue. Which is exactly why GW probably won't make one. It would make converting way too simple. Look at Primaris Hellblasters and Intercessors. Those could have been accomplished with one base body kit and then a separate weapon kit. It would likely be cheaper to manufacture, but with separate kits, GW can transfer the cost to the customer and then pocket all additional profits.

Or alternatively, they did them as two separate kits because we're not talking about a single weapon in a squad but rather a whole squad outfitted with the weapon.

I almost wonder if the Possessed in the picture is actually a Possessed Character. If the Primaris have two Characters, perhaps CSM will as well.

There's 3 Primaris characters.

The foremost model(carbine, grav-chute pack, bared head with respirator) has a LT insignia.

I agree that we will likely get a Noise Marine kit. I am more talking in the meantime. I do think you are right that the old upgrades won't be compatible, which is a bit of a shame.

I think the fact that it was a whole squad outfitted with a single weapon type would be more of a reason for there to just be a Sprue with the weapons on it and the bodies on separate Sprues.

I am not convinced that what we are seeing with that artwork is the actual boxed set cover for Shadowspear. I think it might be the cover of Vigilus Volume II. I really doubt they are going to put what appears to be Sergeant Telion in a boxed set. Unless it isn't Telion and it is just a bog-standard Captain type dude. Who knows. A beard on a Space Marine does not necessarily a Sergeant Telion make. Especially since his weapon doesn't look like Quietus, and as Rubicon Calgar shows us, while a Primaris can't use a frickin' SM transport anymore, they definitely get to keep their relics.

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

Really? In all the talk of kits in need of a re-do, no one's talking about these guys?!

You mean Happy Dance Chaos Space Marines? I imagine that kit will be dealt with just like Noise Marines. Eventually.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

I don't know, I don't understand what's your point is except just to whine about everything. Why is the old kit being resin a valid reason for an update, but the old kit being ugly not?

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

I don't know, I don't understand what's your point is except just to whine about everything. Why is the old kit being resin a valid reason for an update, but the old kit being ugly not?

Resin is infinitely more difficult to deal with though. It isn't usable out of the box like plastic. A plastic model needs the mold lines cleaned and then assembly is straightforward. Resin involves removing the billion little triangles of excess resin all over the model, unwarping all of the parts, and then praying it holds together once assembled. And yes, experienced modelers have less of an issue with it. But plastics open up the kits to more people, which leads to better sales, which likely results in better support (GW going to where the money is at).

I don't have a horse in this race whatsoever, but I definitely would like to see new Havocs over Possessed. The more resin kits replaced with plastic the better.

The real question is why is everyone arguing as if CSMs are only going to get one kit updated?

The whole line needs to be updated, and frankly, if they can create a whole new range for every other faction release, they should be doing it for CSMs now.

Why does Chaos have access to codex compliant devastators any ways?

Like does the champion not allow all of his boys to use heavy weapons? Or does he follow the rules laid down by his spiritual liege?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Why does Chaos have access to codex compliant devastators any ways?

Like does the champion not allow all of his boys to use heavy weapons? Or does he follow the rules laid down by his spiritual liege?

Heresy era rules didn't exist yet. That kit is so old and GW didn't have all the fluff distinctions we do now.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Really? In all the talk of kits in need of a re-do, no one's talking about these guys?!

Yes, but then again, I alredy see two new Khorne Berserkers in this new CSM kit. If there is enough pistols and melee weapons to equip the whole squad, that's basically it. Of course it would be nice if they released Legion upgrade sprues, so World Eaters could get some bunny hats and extra axes etc. But like with the Havocs, the new base CSM kit gets you like 80% or 90% there. Havocs wouldn't need a full kit either, just a heavy weapon sprue.We don't even know that such isn't included in the new set, so complaints are a bit premature. And even if it isn't, it's not like marine scale heavy weapons are difficult to come by.

It's going to be a while before we know how many upgrades are in the kit. GW isn't necessarily very generous with weapon upgrades in some of the latest kits.

The GSC Atalan Jackals, for example, only have one cultist knife bit, only two demo charge bits, and only one of each other melee weapon that does anything. I'd honestly be surprised if the new Chaos Marine kit came with enough bolt pistols and chainswords to equip the whole squad. And I bet it'll only have one of any special weapon and one chain axe that will be stuck in that one pose.

For me possessed are like the old Forsaken Fantasy Kit.

If you combine everything in the box to build a unit they are horrible but if you use them as a mega Upgrade-Sprue to sprinkle all your Chaos marines they are fantastic.

I bought 2 boxes of possesed for that. The winged backpack count as Jumpack is a classic, and using a sword-arm as a power sword for a sargeant, etc... is also very cool.

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, but then again, I alredy see two new Khorne Berserkers in this new CSM kit. If there is enough pistols and melee weapons to equip the whole squad, that's basically it. Of course it would be nice if they released Legion upgrade sprues, so World Eaters could get some bunny hats and extra axes etc. But like with the Havocs, the new base CSM kit gets you like 80% or 90% there. Havocs wouldn't need a full kit either, just a heavy weapon sprue.We don't even know that such isn't included in the new set, so complaints are a bit premature. And even if it isn't, it's not like marine scale heavy weapons are difficult to come by.

I see that less as Khorne Berserkers and more Chaos Space Marines finally being able to have chain axes to switch out their boltgun for a more melee focused marine. I always felt that chain axes should be option in addition to chain swords for regular Chaos Space Marines. I hoping (Tzeentch granted) that this is true given the picture. However, you are correct with a head swap these could easily be Berserkers with new armor. Although, if I am going to kitbash Khorne Berserker stuff I would rather use Age of Sigmar as base and 40k them up instead.

Personally, I would much rather have Havocs over any kind of Possessed. I can even agree with you that Havocs are kind boring in comparison. Fundamental units tend to be boring but useful. My army could make much greater use of Havocs than Possessed. I would prefer to not have to kitbash or use resin/Finecast to get what I consider a fundamental unit. I would much rather the new Chaos Space Marine kit include even just a single missile launcher and lascannon than have to located a Horus Heresy heavy weapon's sprue. Especially since GW could Chaos up these weapons a bit then Not to mention if they become the new Chaos Space Marine kit, I am likely going to get enough to build a Havoc sqaud anyways.

I never wanted Possessed because for three reasons: 1) they don't fit my army idea, 2) they don't have attractive models and 3) they aren't very good. Points 1 and 2 being the most important and the same reason I don't have the Chaos unit that Must Not Be Named. I am fine with an updated Possessed kit, but I do prefer GW clearing out all the resin/Finecraft kits with a kit not requiring me to scrounge or hunt to build a unit. I really think GW should be working toward clearing out the old resin kits for all factions. Sure GW has some of better kits in miniatures gaming, but as long as those resin/Finecast one are on the market, they also have some of the worst too.

I would love a Ghal Vorkha plastic version of new possessed in 40mm bases to act as truly fearsome units.

 Starfarer wrote:
The real question is why is everyone arguing as if CSMs are only going to get one kit updated?

The whole line needs to be updated, and frankly, if they can create a whole new range for every other faction release, they should be doing it for CSMs now.

Wait. Whole new range for who? Every other faction? Wasn't genestealers. Wasn't Orks. Primaris aren't a functional army on their own. Most factions got nothing at all. Death guard come closest, I guess, but that was a fair bit back, and they still have to use old tanks and daemons.

 Galas wrote:
For me possessed are like the old Forsaken Fantasy Kit.

If you combine everything in the box to build a unit they are horrible but if you use them as a mega Upgrade-Sprue to sprinkle all your Chaos marines they are fantastic.

I bought 2 boxes of possesed for that. The winged backpack count as Jumpack is a classic, and using a sword-arm as a power sword for a sargeant, etc... is also very cool.

I mean, I've bought Grey Knight and Deathwatch boxes before just to use for bitz, and have done the same even for FW.

That said, the original kit should look at least okay by itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I would love a Ghal Vorkha plastic version of new possessed in 40mm bases to act as truly fearsome units.

Honestly the current Possessed don't lack a lot of the tools the Gal Vorbak have. I know someone tried arguing with me earlier on that at least.

Is there a rough estimate as to when Shadowspear will be released?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Really? In all the talk of kits in need of a re-do, no one's talking about these guys?!

Spoiler:

Again people are assuming CSM upgrade kits on what *may* be a monopose kit in the Shadow Spear set. The bolter marine is very similar to the ones in Blackstone fortress. Temper those expectations people.

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
Is there a rough estimate as to when Shadowspear will be released?

there's a timer on the little preview of abaddon that indicates 26 days so I'm gonna guess Abaddon will be up for pre-order first weekend of march, so... I'd guess ahdowspear will be the week before. with a pre-order date of hmm possiably as early as this weekend if we're really lucky?

“But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt.”

Not a new kit, single model monopose sculpts.

My personal wish would be: Plastic Havocs (with 4 of each....)
Plastic possesed.
Plastic CSM and ofcourse could we please take a look at the Berzerkers?

 ImAGeek wrote:

Nah, of course they don’t need new models, they’re already a plastic kit!

Haha, we came full circle

But seriously, isn't the Berzerker kit the oldest that GW has on the shelves? It even predates the current CSM; that even got a repack and upgrade sprue in the meantime.

Invul wrote:

“But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt.”

Not a new kit, single model monopose sculpts.

Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead

 Darkseid wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Nah, of course they don’t need new models, they’re already a plastic kit!

Haha, we came full circle

But seriously, isn't the Berzerker kit the oldest that GW has on the shelves? It even predates the current CSM; that even got a repack and upgrade sprue in the meantime.

You would imagine they will come when they do Angron.

All the Black Legion things (ie generic Chaos) make sense to come with Abaddon

 Darkseid wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Nah, of course they don’t need new models, they’re already a plastic kit!

Haha, we came full circle

But seriously, isn't the Berzerker kit the oldest that GW has on the shelves? It even predates the current CSM; that even got a repack and upgrade sprue in the meantime.

1997 I believe? Certainly one of the oldest plastic kits remaining, and may be the oldest with the recent demise of the old Ork buggy kit. I think it is a couple of years older than the Catachans kit (1999?). Other contenders would be the Eldar Guardians and maybe some of the oldest plastic vehicles. I'd have to dig around for release dates though!

Eldar vypers would surely be the oldest?

How old is the current Abaddon model? Fabius Bile is certainly getting up there. The ork Deffkopta model with twin big shootas has to be pretty darn old at this point.

Not sure if any of these are near being the oldest but they darn sure need updated kits! Although the biggest eyesore IMO, Abaddon (because of his place in the plot) is at last getting his day in the sun.

 ingtaer wrote:
Eldar vypers would surely be the oldest?

The Viper definitly aged better than the Berzerkers.

Speaking of which: One thing I love about the new Chaos Marines is that you can see the MK4 armor shine through all the chaosy bitz. Same thing for the Death Guard, who sport the MK3 beneath all the corruption.

I wonder what that means for potential new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. Will we see chaosified MK2 and MK5 as well?

Space Marine Bike is now the oldest one. I think. Pretty sure it predates the Vyper, as the Vyper was a long time coming after the Eldar Jetbikes, which came out around the same time as Space Marine Bikes.

Even Chaos got new bikes. Eventually.

For Khorne Berzerkers? I want a more hodge-podge look to their armour. After all, they don't strike me as a force that takes particularly great care of their kit, being somewhat loony. Instead, I can see replacement parts being salvaged from the slain, and grabbed by whomever gets there first. And add in some bare arms, as we see on Kharne, in the style of the all-too-briefly available 2nd Ed metals. Seen here.

(one on the left)

And here



I feel it really adds to their look. Other opinions are of course available.

 Darkseid wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Eldar vypers would surely be the oldest?

The Viper definitly aged better than the Berzerkers.

Speaking of which: One thing I love about the new Chaos Marines is that you can see the MK4 armor shine through all the chaosy bitz. Same thing for the Death Guard, who sport the MK3 beneath all the corruption.

I wonder what that means for potential new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. Will we see chaosified MK2 and MK5 as well?

Well, if you go back to the original post in this thread, you can see there are at least two Mk V models. The one from the video appears to be Mk V, as does the Marine on the right in the image that has the Mk IV model. I hope we see more Mk IV though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Darkseid wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
Eldar vypers would surely be the oldest?

The Viper definitly aged better than the Berzerkers.

Speaking of which: One thing I love about the new Chaos Marines is that you can see the MK4 armor shine through all the chaosy bitz. Same thing for the Death Guard, who sport the MK3 beneath all the corruption.

I wonder what that means for potential new Berzerkers and Noise Marines. Will we see chaosified MK2 and MK5 as well?

Well, if you go back to the original post in this thread, you can see there are at least two Mk V models. The one from the video appears to be Mk V, as does the Marine on the right in the image that has the Mk IV model. I hope we see more Mk IV though.

MkV is essentially poor-quality MkIV though, so I would expect CSM to have a mix of the two. If you repair MkIV with readily available components, it results in MkV in essence. The two are fully interchageable and basically the same thing. Some Marines at the end of the Great Crusade were using MkV-style respirators with MkIV armour, to show just how compatible they are. This just became more common after gak hit the fan (presumably the "dog-nosed" resiprator is more complex than the Mantilla/Sarus pattern respirator).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

For Khorne Berzerkers? I want a more hodge-podge look to their armour. After all, they don't strike me as a force that takes particularly great care of their kit, being somewhat loony. Instead, I can see replacement parts being salvaged from the slain, and grabbed by whomever gets there first. And add in some bare arms, as we see on Kharne, in the style of the all-too-briefly available 2nd Ed metals. Seen here.

If they did it right, I'd be all for the ragtag armor look on Berserkers. Though, the closest thing to the look these days would be the Wulfen, since they've got the black carapace and bare limbs look going. A kit that looked like a mix between Wulfen and AOS Bloodwarriors would be a hard pass for me. But a mix of Kharn and new CSM would be an instant buy. I'm trying to hold off on getting the FW Berserker upgrade heads to put on the new CSM,just in the hopes of new Berserkers when World Eaters finally get love.

BrianDavion wrote:

BlueGrassGamer wrote:
Is there a rough estimate as to when Shadowspear will be released?

there's a timer on the little preview of abaddon that indicates 26 days so I'm gonna guess Abaddon will be up for pre-order first weekend of march, so... I'd guess ahdowspear will be the week before. with a pre-order date of hmm possiably as early as this weekend if we're really lucky?

Rumour on Bolter and Chainsword from a side conversation had at the LVO is it will be out in 3 to 4 weeks it's "imminent"

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DaemonEngine2-Feb13-Image1hvrgxc.jpg

Possessed again

Between the Telion look-a-like, the other sniper Primaris... and the boxset being called Shadow Spear... I wonder if this will include Abaddon and play as some sort of scenario driven assassination mini-game.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Between the Telion look-a-like, the other sniper Primaris... and the boxset being called Shadow Spear... I wonder if this will include Abaddon and play as some sort of scenario driven assassination mini-game.

I'd be super-surprised if Abby actually came in the box, but I like the cut of your jib good sir. This should be something they include in the following White Dwarf issue as an additional scenario.

GaroRobe wrote:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DaemonEngine2-Feb13-Image1hvrgxc.jpg

Possessed again

Awww look at those cute little toe beans.

I'm sorry, but all I see is Chaos Sandals

Because that is what it is?

PiñaColada wrote:
How old is the current Abaddon model? Fabius Bile is certainly getting up there.

2nd edition for both, not counting redoing abbadon's base connection since he used to be on a 25mm slot-style. So, what, 20-ish years?

1.) Multipart kits in this box.

2.) Possessed are a new unit, something like Gal Vorbak.

3.) Obliterators are obliterators as we now have them.

Feel free to take with plenty of salt, just what I was told by a shopkeeper.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/DaemonEngine2-Feb13-Image1hvrgxc.jpg

Possessed again

Awww look at those cute little toe beans.

I am the only one that sees Wulfen more than Possessed here? I mean, Wulfen are pretty much Loyalist Possessed Marines anyway

-

 Galef wrote:
[
Awww look at those cute little toe beans.

I am the only one that sees Wulfen more than Possessed here? I mean, Wulfen are pretty much Loyalist Possessed Marines anyway

-

GaroRobe wrote:

 Galef wrote:
[
Awww look at those cute little toe beans.

I am the only one that sees Wulfen more than Possessed here? I mean, Wulfen are pretty much Loyalist Possessed Marines anyway

-

I was thinking of Wulfen too. Hopefully they'll look a lot better. Even in art, Wulfen look bad, so I'm hopefully, since the boxart looks pretty cool. I just don't see why the sole of their feet would need armor at all. It doesn't even look like a destroyed shoe, but rather something added after the food mutated.

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

I don't know, I don't understand what's your point is except just to whine about everything. Why is the old kit being resin a valid reason for an update, but the old kit being ugly not?

1) Resin is of an objectively inferior quality as compared to modern plastics.

2) Whether or not a model is "ugly" is entirely subjective.

There are any number of old models which I think stand up well in terms of visual aesthetic, regardless of their age. However, if a figure is only available in what is almost universally understood to be a material that is bad for the hobby, then there is reason to make new plastic molds for the miniature. If you're already going to invest money in making new molds, it makes sense to at least consider updating the sculpt; it's more cost efficient that way.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:
I'm sorry, but all I see is Chaos Sandals

Techically, they're more like chaos-y stirrup pants. No doubt the Eye of Terror is a little behind the times when it comes to fashion. It seems the 80's is still where it's at...

 Norchack wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

I don't know, I don't understand what's your point is except just to whine about everything. Why is the old kit being resin a valid reason for an update, but the old kit being ugly not?

1) Resin is of an objectively inferior quality as compared to modern plastics.

That’s simply not true

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Really? In all the talk of kits in need of a re-do, no one's talking about these guys?!

They already have a kit. AoS Khorne Bloodbound Blood Warriors are pretty much Khorn Berserkers. Though I modded mine more and used em as CSM because Chaos needs love too.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 Norchack wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Havocs have a resin kit. That plastic is preferable over resin is subjective.

Cool, and we're been talking about plastic kits the entire time, so why bring up a resin kit?

I don't know, I don't understand what's your point is except just to whine about everything. Why is the old kit being resin a valid reason for an update, but the old kit being ugly not?

1) Resin is of an objectively inferior quality as compared to modern plastics.

That’s simply not true

That may be an overstatement on my part. I've been told that it is superior in its ability to capture detail, though I'm not convinced. I do know that it is far more difficult to work with as a hobbyist. It warps, it bubbles, and it is very difficult to use in converting figures. By what metric do you consider it to be superior to the plastics GW currently uses?

without derailing again the thread ... I believe the factor lies on sharp details for resin over plastic. Another factor is the hot water application to customize cables and other flexible belts

Resin is capable of way sharper detail, preserves texture far better, and can do undercuts. Kingdom Death happens to do a lot of minis first in resin and then in HIPS (same material GW uses), and it's really clear which is a superior cast in how they translate.

Now, that doesn't mean resin is superior in all regards (it's more fragile, more expensive, and tends towards small runs so it's harder to get (or GW suffers in QC for their volume)), and I often prefer plastic for the price, but resin is certainly a good material, and for display painting it's got huge advantages.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Resin is capable of way sharper detail, preserves texture far better, and can do undercuts. Kingdom Death happens to do a lot of minis first in resin and then in HIPS (same material GW uses), and it's really clear which is a superior cast in how they translate.

Now, that doesn't mean resin is superior in all regards (it's more fragile, more expensive, and tends towards small runs so it's harder to get (or GW suffers in QC for their volume)), and I often prefer plastic for the price, but resin is certainly a good material, and for display painting it's got huge advantages.

That's what I've always understood. Which, to my mind, translates to GW's plastics being the superior material for the hobby overall. I know I would love to see some of the models that previously available in metal but now exclusively available in resin get converted over to plastic.

For GW's volume and the scale of most of their games, yeah, I think their current model makes the most sense: plastic for nearly everything; resin only for very niche things where smaller print runs are better.

IMHO they should be printing most of their characters in resin if they're charging so much for characters to offset the mold prices, but I think they just overcharge for characters and probably have print runs that are plenty viable for a $15-ish per model character prices.

Can anyone fill me in on what the Gal Vorbak are like? I don't know 30k stats.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Can anyone fill me in on what the Gal Vorbak are like? I don't know 30k stats.

You can find their stats online. Equivalent to around the same as current GW except 2+ WS; 3+ BS, add a wound or two since "damage" isn't a stat. Points are similar to 40k prices.

Rending is now mortal wounds on 6s
Rage is a charge turn buff
Deep Strike is the same as various 9" reserves effects
Stubborn is probably closest to ATSKNF

I'm surprised nobody has drawn a distinction between proper resin (like Forgeworld) and the poor quality resin that is Finecast. I have no issues with working with proper resin - obviously I'd prefer plastic, and I'm still unsure if I'd rather work with resin or metal for an upgrade, but Finecast is flimsy, prone to awful miscasts and I've even heard too many horror stories about it melting on a hot day. Last time I checked, it gets pretty hot here in Sydney.

Can we please keep the discussion on Shadowspear and not on the properties or desirability of different materials (unless it is pertinent).

Thanks,
ingtaer.

The fact the foot is in the Rumor Daemon Engine pretty much seals it as a new Possessed to me. I just hope they look really good. The old ones are...eh. I would be fine with the Master of Possession, 10 CSM, 5 Possessed, and the Tick. Especially if that translates to similar volumes of figures for the Space Marines (I really don't want there to be a ton of characters in the box). Hopefully some sort of vehicle or Dreadnought is in there for the SM. I would actually really like for there to be some sort of manned Walker for the SM like the Ironstrider. But the SM would be aping Star Wars way too much with that.

But the rumor engine of the vehicle top pretty much indicates some sort of speeder. I am hoping for a transport, but I would be fine with some sort of Anti-Tank weapons platform.

Yeah I think it’s a lead up to the full box set reveal more than the typical rumour engine thing of hinting at stuff that isn’t coming for ages. The set up and everything is obviously different and seems like they’re teasing until the full reveal. So I would be surprised if they were hinting at Wulfen and these weren’t hints at new possessed.
I could be wrong though obviously but that’s just what I think.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Can anyone fill me in on what the Gal Vorbak are like? I don't know 30k stats.

Speaking as someone with a unit of them and who has played games with them in action (in addition to what has already been said):

The thing with the Gal Vorbak is that they were a huge jump up from 40k possessed when they came out.

And I mean huge. 40k possessed have been a bit of a joke since as far back as I can remember. They have always had the problem of having basic marine durability, but being very expensive (which is bad because basic marines are already overcosted for their durability). Going from T4 W1 to T5 W2 is a massive jump in durability (their statline is filled with 5s, really) and allowed minimum squads to deepstrike in and threaten enemy units on their own, something that possessed have never been able to do historically. Their slew of special rules are potent (high volume of Rending attacks is useful against all targets), but probably my favourite part of them is the unit champion, who sports +1 LD, WS, wounds and attacks as well as a range of special weapon options and the ability to take artificier armour. The result is a unit champion easily able to take on and defeat most HQs 1 on 1, which was always a nasty surprise for the opponent.

Obviously 8th is an extremely lethal environment and even if you ported them directly to 40k the Gal Vorbak wouldn't last long. But the sheer contrast from possessed made them truly something to behold.

If GW were to lift something from 30k into 40k for Chaos, I'd be just as interested if not more in the Mhara Gal. That thing is like my favourite model ever - model design, usefulness and extremely flavourful rules. It's just an absolute terror.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact the foot is in the Rumor Daemon Engine pretty much seals it as a new Possessed to me. I just hope they look really good. The old ones are...eh. I would be fine with the Master of Possession, 10 CSM, 5 Possessed, and the Tick. Especially if that translates to similar volumes of figures for the Space Marines (I really don't want there to be a ton of characters in the box). Hopefully some sort of vehicle or Dreadnought is in there for the SM. I would actually really like for there to be some sort of manned Walker for the SM like the Ironstrider. But the SM would be aping Star Wars way too much with that.

But the rumor engine of the vehicle top pretty much indicates some sort of speeder. I am hoping for a transport, but I would be fine with some sort of Anti-Tank weapons platform.

Am I the only one who thinks a fast transport air speeder would be awesome? Because everyone I've heard mention a Primairs Speeder always assumes it would be just like the old ones and be kited for other uses instead of transport...

 Togusa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact the foot is in the Rumor Daemon Engine pretty much seals it as a new Possessed to me. I just hope they look really good. The old ones are...eh. I would be fine with the Master of Possession, 10 CSM, 5 Possessed, and the Tick. Especially if that translates to similar volumes of figures for the Space Marines (I really don't want there to be a ton of characters in the box). Hopefully some sort of vehicle or Dreadnought is in there for the SM. I would actually really like for there to be some sort of manned Walker for the SM like the Ironstrider. But the SM would be aping Star Wars way too much with that.

But the rumor engine of the vehicle top pretty much indicates some sort of speeder. I am hoping for a transport, but I would be fine with some sort of Anti-Tank weapons platform.

Am I the only one who thinks a fast transport air speeder would be awesome? Because everyone I've heard mention a Primairs Speeder always assumes it would be just like the old ones and be kited for other uses instead of transport...

I think it'd be awesome. I would be in favor of something like the catacomb command barge that can be built as an annihilation barge as well.

Vigilus Defiant page 124 wrote:
7.230 Post: A Terrifying Find
On Nemendghast, an Ultramarines Vanguard strike force discovers the corrupted Black Legion flesh-factory known as the Forge Infernus. Though heavily outnumbered by Daemonkin warriors led by the Master of Possession Vorash Soulflayer, the Ultramarines battle-brothers launch a sabotage operation, crippling the corrupted forge. Their victory comes at great cost; of the strike force, only the Librarian Maltis escapes the planet to warn Calgar of the threat lurking at the edge of the Vigilus System with his fellow battle-brothers recorded missing in action.

I went back into Vigilus Defiant today, remembering a bit about Black Legion in Vigilus before the whole bit about the Worldclaimer was supposed to occur chronologically. Looking back, damn--I can't believe I missed the Vanguard, Daemonkin, and Master of Possession callouts in the book.

I'm now going to double down on my speculation that it's not just a new Possessed kit potentially, but rather a double kit that includes a more nasty version that would be the "Daemonkin".

Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

Thanks for sharing man. Very interesting information if indeed true. Multipart would be cool, and will likely mean that all units in the box will be released separately at some point, instead of possibly staying exclusive to this box. Hopefully that means the old Chaos Marines will finally go the way of the dodo and be replaced by these awesome-looking new dudes.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

If it makes you feel better, it wasn't simply that you were ignored but rather that I wanted to share the specifics of that blurb from Vigilus Defiant. Also I hadn't read or really 'digested' your posts in context of this.

That said, I'd be interested for you to fire back the term "Daemonkin" at them and see the reaction you get.
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

This pleases me.

When and how do you think we'll get the Vanguard's Kill-Team rules?

 Kanluwen wrote:
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

As the main advocate for the ETB stuff (I think I was the only one really pushing it) I would like to clarify, that I never intending to imply or suggest that there would not be full multi-part kits. That, as you say, was always a given.

I just really, really, really, really hope there are ALSO 3-man ETB kits for the Eliminators and Chaos Marines. Either released at the same time, or a few weeks later.

-

But the Deamonkin bit is interesting. I wonder what the difference will be. Maybe Possessed are Marines with the Daemons inhabiting them, while the Daemonkin are the next level in which those Marines are effectively "gone" and it's full the Daemon now.

-

If you say this is a marine and a daemon fused together you expect something more significant than chaos currently gets.

Aesthetically they have been all over the place in an non-cohesive way. Gal Vorbak showed us that you can have crazy possessed marines that have visual cohesiveness without giving up any of their unique character.

The only consistent theme to their rules over the years, has been to be random and hard to predict, which makes them unreliable.

Within the wider context its baffling that the Inquisition can have daemonhosts, which are effectively non-marine possessed... and yet the difference between human and daemonhost is so different than marine and possessed. Daemons are gonna do what daemons are gonna do, so setting that aside... more than our angry marines, our witchy marines, our squish marines, or our loud marines, they are supernatural.

Possessed really should be one of those units that really distinguishes chaos in every facet of the hobby. When you say Possessed you'd like to atleast imagine something at a similar level to a Bloodletter or Plaguebearer inhabiting the CSM, but what we have is more like a nurgling in a marine.

This is to say I welcome anything GW does to improve them.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

As the main advocate for the ETB stuff (I think I was the only one really pushing it) I would like to clarify, that I never intending to imply or suggest that there would not be full multi-part kits. That, as you say, was always a given.

I just really, really, really, really hope there are ALSO 3-man ETB kits for the Eliminators and Chaos Marines. Either released at the same time, or a few weeks later.

There likely won't be. I do think the lead time between this and whatever the releases are supposed to be for the next 'phase' of things is going to be shorter than it's been for past releases, but I can't see them cannibalizing the sales that the ETB would bring vs the 'big boxes'.

But the Deamonkin bit is interesting. I wonder what the difference will be. Maybe Possessed are Marines with the Daemons inhabiting them, while the Daemonkin are the next level in which those Marines are effectively "gone" and it's full the Daemon now.

-

Said before, saying again: I'm wondering if these are some kind of 'characters' that can function as assassins effectively.

They've been dipping into some lore that was really on the fringe, would be kinda cool to see a Heretic Astartes version of "Spear" from the Nemesis novel.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

If it makes you feel better, it wasn't simply that you were ignored but rather that I wanted to share the specifics of that blurb from Vigilus Defiant. Also I hadn't read or really 'digested' your posts in context of this.

That said, I'd be interested for you to fire back the term "Daemonkin" at them and see the reaction you get.
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

Daemonkin was a thing in 7th edition - the Khorne Daemonkin army list which combined Chaos Space Marines and daemons. The reference you quoted could point to a new unit type, a resurrection of that 7th edition faction or a broadening of it to cover the other three gods.

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

Thanks for sharing man. Very interesting information if indeed true. Multipart would be cool, and will likely mean that all units in the box will be released separately at some point, instead of possibly staying exclusive to this box. Hopefully that means the old Chaos Marines will finally go the way of the dodo and be replaced by these awesome-looking new dudes.

Ah yes, the classic "I heard from an employee".

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

If it makes you feel better, it wasn't simply that you were ignored but rather that I wanted to share the specifics of that blurb from Vigilus Defiant. Also I hadn't read or really 'digested' your posts in context of this.

That said, I'd be interested for you to fire back the term "Daemonkin" at them and see the reaction you get.
The multipart bit was always guaranteed, despite the constant posts about Easy to Build stuff. It just isn't happening unless they depart from the normal setup of these battleboxes.

Daemonkin was a thing in 7th edition - the Khorne Daemonkin army list which combined Chaos Space Marines and daemons. The reference you quoted could point to a new unit type, a resurrection of that 7th edition faction or a broadening of it to cover the other three gods.

Yes, Daemonkin was an army in 7th edition--it also was promptly dropped. The reference I quoted refers to it as a unit, not an army.

the size of that claw

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

Thanks for sharing man. Very interesting information if indeed true. Multipart would be cool, and will likely mean that all units in the box will be released separately at some point, instead of possibly staying exclusive to this box. Hopefully that means the old Chaos Marines will finally go the way of the dodo and be replaced by these awesome-looking new dudes.

Ah yes, the classic "I heard from an employee".

Means it's a lead-pipe lock to happen. Tossing my old CSMs right now.

Love it...now show me tzeentch mutations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Tossing my old CSMs right now.

I did that when BF came out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Love it...now show me tzeentch mutations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Tossing my old CSMs right now.

I did that when BF came out.

I understand pure Servants of the Abyss armies did well at LVO.

Wait! ... we got a backpack with an eye, a foot paw, and now a hand claw.. maybe next is something related to nurgle

 aracersss wrote:
the size of that claw

Spoiler:

When I first saw this, I was like

Night Goblins??

Giant Chaos Spawn.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Giant Chaos Spawn.

A model that would never be purchased since they bumped its point cost into uselessness.

Interesting so the ultras lost a battle.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Interesting so the ultras lost a battle.

That claw belongs to a Keeper of Secrets.

The big eye on that claw looks like something very pleasing is happening to it.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3697b5c04946a5786536321a7940cab26f712ecd3b11fd8617575ca788124298.jpg

Someone over at Warseer posted an older image featuring Winged Chaos Marines. Which could share a boxset with Possessed, though we already have two different jumpack units, one specifically aimed for close combats. So I'm not sure if flying possessed would even be something GW would consider making.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Love it...now show me tzeentch mutations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Tossing my old CSMs right now.

I did that when BF came out.

I understand pure Servants of the Abyss armies did well at LVO.

I'm just ready to ditch my old models. BF was the indicator that they were on the way.

skarsol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Giant Chaos Spawn.

A model that would never be purchased since they bumped its point cost into uselessness.

AND WENT OOP.
Ever thought about the fact that GW may write the rules for it?

GaroRobe wrote:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3697b5c04946a5786536321a7940cab26f712ecd3b11fd8617575ca788124298.jpg

Someone over at Warseer posted an older image featuring Winged Chaos Marines. Which could share a boxset with Possessed, though we already have two different jumpack units, one specifically aimed for close combats. So I'm not sure if flying possessed would even be something GW would consider making.

The old raptors used to have wings.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Love it...now show me tzeentch mutations!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Tossing my old CSMs right now.

I did that when BF came out.

I understand pure Servants of the Abyss armies did well at LVO.

I'm just ready to ditch my old models. BF was the indicator that they were on the way.

Yeah. Wondering just what to expect tho...

I don't plan on ditching mine, but have started rebasing them to make them look taller. Figure I'm going to be mixing new and old for a while, like with the DV Chosen.

The new sculpts are good, but not abandon all previous efforts good.

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

Thanks for sharing man. Very interesting information if indeed true. Multipart would be cool, and will likely mean that all units in the box will be released separately at some point, instead of possibly staying exclusive to this box. Hopefully that means the old Chaos Marines will finally go the way of the dodo and be replaced by these awesome-looking new dudes.

Pretty much nothing ever stays exclusive to the boxes. Is there any? Even the HQ's have habit of eventually coming on their own. So if you have patience you can get them separately later if you don't want the rest for discount.

tneva82 wrote:

 Insane Ivan wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Well, as I am accustomed by this point my response was completely ignored, but once again, I was told by a GW employee that the kits are multipart, the possessed are a new Gal Vorbak style unit, and the obliterators are the same as the codex.

Thanks for sharing man. Very interesting information if indeed true. Multipart would be cool, and will likely mean that all units in the box will be released separately at some point, instead of possibly staying exclusive to this box. Hopefully that means the old Chaos Marines will finally go the way of the dodo and be replaced by these awesome-looking new dudes.

Pretty much nothing ever stays exclusive to the boxes. Is there any? Even the HQ's have habit of eventually coming on their own. So if you have patience you can get them separately later if you don't want the rest for discount.

A lot of push fit stuff from the starters does, which is presumably why they’re happy about the kits being multipart, as it means they aren’t likely to not be available separately.

GaroRobe wrote:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3697b5c04946a5786536321a7940cab26f712ecd3b11fd8617575ca788124298.jpg

Someone over at Warseer posted an older image featuring Winged Chaos Marines. Which could share a boxset with Possessed, though we already have two different jumpack units, one specifically aimed for close combats. So I'm not sure if flying possessed would even be something GW would consider making.

The possessed kit presently has wings and some possessed are supposed to be able to fly, in past editions they could be upgraded to be jump pack infantry...

I maybe overly optimistic, but with updated rules possessed could easily become the customizable and flexible close combat elite choice... or even an all round flexible choice if they have some sort of daemonic pew pew.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Yeah. Wondering just what to expect tho...

I don't plan on ditching mine, but have started rebasing them to make them look taller. Figure I'm going to be mixing new and old for a while, like with the DV Chosen.

The new sculpts are good, but not abandon all previous efforts good.

I am fortunate in that my CSM were done when i was a teenager...so they look terrible anyway...

 Daedalus81 wrote:

GaroRobe wrote:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3697b5c04946a5786536321a7940cab26f712ecd3b11fd8617575ca788124298.jpg

Someone over at Warseer posted an older image featuring Winged Chaos Marines. Which could share a boxset with Possessed, though we already have two different jumpack units, one specifically aimed for close combats. So I'm not sure if flying possessed would even be something GW would consider making.

The old raptors used to have wings.

Nnnnnnno.

They just stole their flight packs from the Birdmen of Catrazza, they didn't have organic wings.

tneva82 wrote:
Pretty much nothing ever stays exclusive to the boxes. Is there any?

An obvious one is Chaos Cultist special weapons and champions.

New daemon rumour engine. Though possessed seems to be the likely thing all things considered (no debate from me), i'll throw a wild card in there with that claw and posit a new Keeper of Secrets or slannesh daemon?

GaroRobe wrote:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3697b5c04946a5786536321a7940cab26f712ecd3b11fd8617575ca788124298.jpg

Someone over at Warseer posted an older image featuring Winged Chaos Marines. Which could share a boxset with Possessed, though we already have two different jumpack units, one specifically aimed for close combats. So I'm not sure if flying possessed would even be something GW would consider making.

The thing is - Kevin Chin have a distinct work-style, so this flying creatures are Possessed as much as this blood angels leader with fur coat is Blood Angels Primaris capatain.

Honestly, the kits still look monopose to me.

I'll be very happy if I'm wrong. I much prefer full kits. But looking at them, that's what I think. That bolter CSM is just so similar to the BSF ones, for starters.

I don't give much weight to the fact that other battle boxes have contained full kits. They do, but nearly always models that already exist (sometimes with one new kit and often with new characters). It would be unprecedented for a battle box to contain a whole new set of multipart sculpts. If that's ever happened before it might have been the 3rd edition starter set.

But like I say, I'm basing this judgement - which may be wrong - on how the models look. I'm not trying to draw a parallel some or other existing set because this is something different.

I guess we'll see.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Pretty much nothing ever stays exclusive to the boxes. Is there any?

An obvious one is Chaos Cultist special weapons and champions.

Did we ever get a multi part Chosen release post Dark Vengeance? The weird thing is as well as the champs and special weapons not even all of the vanilla cultists sculpts got a release after the set came out. That was 2012 though...a loooong time ago.

That was leaving easy money on the table, too. What was Kirby smoking?! And now I realise that my regular CSM plastics are old enough to vote Geez. Time for new ones!

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Pretty much nothing ever stays exclusive to the boxes. Is there any?

An obvious one is Chaos Cultist special weapons and champions.

Did we ever get a multi part Chosen release post Dark Vengeance? The weird thing is as well as the champs and special weapons not even all of the vanilla cultists sculpts got a release after the set came out. That was 2012 though...a loooong time ago.

Dark Vengeance had 11 different Cultist sculpts, not counting the 2 different weapon/backpack options for the heavy, so basically 12 different models (2 champions, 4 x pistol and CCW, 4 x autogun, and 2 x heavy). Only 5 of those were released separately later, and out of all the Chaos models in that set, only the Helbrute later received a separate multi-part set. The Aspiring Champion which was later added to the newer version of Dark Vengeance was the only other CSM to be released with the same aesthetic, up until Blackstone Fortress.

Mandragola wrote:
Honestly, the kits still look monopose to me.

I'll be very happy if I'm wrong. I much prefer full kits. But looking at them, that's what I think. That bolter CSM is just so similar to the BSF ones, for starters.

I don't give much weight to the fact that other battle boxes have contained full kits. They do, but nearly always models that already exist (sometimes with one new kit and often with new characters). It would be unprecedented for a battle box to contain a whole new set of multipart sculpts. If that's ever happened before it might have been the 3rd edition starter set.

But like I say, I'm basing this judgement - which may be wrong - on how the models look. I'm not trying to draw a parallel some or other existing set because this is something different.

I guess we'll see.

GW have literally said this is a battle box and "the twist" is that it contains all new sculpts. Given that every battle box has contained new minis, all of which have been full kits, I don't see why anyone would suspect otherwise.

Monopose is a meme. It's up there with overdesigned. Every tactical marine, Ork boy, Eldar guardian etc has been posed more or less the same way for twenty odd years, despite them being multipose kits. The new sculpts are posed better and how limiting is it really to have the torso and legs connected?

JSG wrote:
Monopose is a meme. It's up there with overdesigned. Every tactical marine, Ork boy, Eldar guardian etc has been posed more or less the same way for twenty odd years, despite them being multipose kits. The new sculpts are posed better and how limiting is it really to have the torso and legs connected?

Compare the Reivers from the 3-pack monopose to the Reivers from the actual kit and you'll see.

The 'torso and legs being connected' aren't the issue- or what happens in monopose kits. It's the lack of options and customization. I want my models to be able to tilt their heads and face a specific direction, to have dynamic poses with their arms that work with their stance, to have a degree of personalization that makes them actually look the way I want them to.

GW can sometimes make some good monoposes, but let's be honest... most of them are awful. See their timeless classics like: "Imperium's Elite Warrior that can't change magazines without looking at the gun like it's new to him", or "Dude standing bowlegged and pointing a gun and waving a sword over his head", "guy doing aerobics with his weapons", and the ever classic "man yelling at thing he probably doesn't need to yell at".

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
The 'torso and legs being connected' aren't the issue- or what happens in monopose kits. It's the lack of options and customization.

So monopose is a meme

I want my models to be able to tilt their heads and face a specific direction, to have dynamic poses with their arms that work with their stance

And for the first time GW are giving you what you want.

to have a degree of personalization that makes them actually look the way I want them to.

Well personalization, by it's very nature, can't really be included in the kit, so it is really what you make of it.

I'm being a little tongue in cheek with my responses here. I just wanted to push back agaisnt the idea that these new kits are somehow lacking compared to the older kits. IMO the newer kits are the best we've ever had, poses included.

JSG wrote:
I'm being a little tongue in cheek with my responses here. I just wanted to push back agaisnt the idea that these new kits are somehow lacking compared to the older kits. IMO the newer kits are the best we've ever had, poses included.

Let me elaborate:

Reiver 3-pack, monopose. Boring. We both get these packs and our guys will be pretty much identical.

Reiver 10-man kit, not monopose. We could both have completely different appearances in our models, add in new bits, place grenades and holsters and sheathes where we want, etc.

I prefer the latter.

And the old kits... eh. No, not much of a fan. Nearly all the Space Marines in the old kits were the same, with a few customization options- they were still all standing roughly the same exact way.

JSG wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
The 'torso and legs being connected' aren't the issue- or what happens in monopose kits. It's the lack of options and customization.

So monopose is a meme

I want my models to be able to tilt their heads and face a specific direction, to have dynamic poses with their arms that work with their stance

And for the first time GW are giving you what you want.

to have a degree of personalization that makes them actually look the way I want them to.

Well personalization, by it's very nature, can't really be included in the kit, so it is really what you make of it.

I'm being a little tongue in cheek with my responses here. I just wanted to push back agaisnt the idea that these new kits are somehow lacking compared to the older kits. IMO the newer kits are the best we've ever had, poses included.

I agree that I found it much easier to create interesting poses with Primaris marines than with the old "squatting" marines. Even though I could only connect each torso to a set of legs in just one manner, they resulting marine each looks very different (while the old squatting stances all look very similar, at least from a distance), and with creative choices of arms and head directions, I could create distinct and interesting poses far easier than with the older models. The poses might get repetitive if you have an entire army of primaris, but then you could do a lot to mix-and-match the different Primaris kits (e.g., combining the Intercessors and Helblasters kits will give you 10 distinct basic poses for basic Mark X armour marines, which could be easily interchanged with all kinds of different arms etc., and that's not including the poses from the EtB Primaris and any character kits).

Obviously you can do a lot with "old" marines too, but making their poses interesting often requires quite a bit of modelling skill and even greenstuff skills, while the Primaris are a bit more friendly to less-experienced builders, certainly as long as you're happy to do a little kit-bashing.

As for the true monopose EtB kits, to me they look like the can be easily combined with bits from the full kits to just have the basic "torso & legs" as just another option to connect different heads and arms too. The only downside seems to be the pre-molded kit etc.,

Next Deamon Engine post is up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/15/the-daemon-engine-15th-february-2019/



Probably the HB dude included in the regular CSM kit from Shadow Spear, or is HBMC finally getting his Havocs?

I'd put my money on it just being part of the regular CSM box. Looks absolutely awesome though.

Gee, this thing suuure looks like more possessed. It's almost as if certain someone's aura of being 100% wrong 100% of the time somehow warped these into existence

Guys, quick, can you spamwhine something loudly about primaris terminators and veterans? I'd like to get them by my birthday, TYVM

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

JSG wrote:
Monopose is a meme. It's up there with overdesigned. Every tactical marine, Ork boy, Eldar guardian etc has been posed more or less the same way for twenty odd years, despite them being multipose kits. The new sculpts are posed better and how limiting is it really to have the torso and legs connected?

Compare the Reivers from the 3-pack monopose to the Reivers from the actual kit and you'll see.

The 'torso and legs being connected' aren't the issue- or what happens in monopose kits. It's the lack of options and customization. I want my models to be able to tilt their heads and face a specific direction, to have dynamic poses with their arms that work with their stance, to have a degree of personalization that makes them actually look the way I want them to.

I don't get your problem. 3 dynamic, different poses vs 3 identical, squatting + clutching bolter across the chest ones - new kit, even though it's ETB, is obviously superior here.

Even the other thing you mention, posing, is non-issue with new ETBs, all you need is to clip off tab at the bottom of the head, presto, you can pose it you any way you want. Ditto with arms - clip off pegs and you can pose the arm pretty much to the same degree as old 'multipose' minis. The only issue is the fact the pad is part of the arm, so you can't rotate it to hide gaps to nearly same degree, and have to use file/greenstuff for more radical reposing, but the possibility is there. In fact, I'd grade 'ETB' far superior to at least two dozen old plastic "multipose" kits when it comes to ease of assembly and pose, never mind looks and ease of cleanup/prep...

New Heavy Support Primaris Marine confirmed

New planet name as well, rather than being Vigilus (unless it's a location thereon? Really not that up on my Vigilus knowledge).

Re monopose vs multipart, going to talk about the Plague Marines and Reivers as they are the ones I've assembled.

I like the monopose Plague Marines, but I wish they were slightly easier to convert. Some of them you can just swap the head/arms/backpack with no issue, but the ones where those parts aren't easily removable are a pain.

I think it's also important that a multipart kit exists alongside any monopose kits - my monopose Plague Marines / Reivers would have a lot more repetition if I didn't have the multipart kits to raid for parts.

 Irbis wrote:
... certain someone's aura of being 100% wrong 100% of the time...

Excuse me?

The source:




https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/15/warhammer-40000-the-shadow-war-for-nemendghast-part-1/