The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid and anybody saying the contrary is very, very wrong to stay polite. The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ? As for the terminator box, it's not just poor, it is outright insulting.
What's funny is that with this new kit, GW didn't even tried to improve terminator's rules. They're still t4, while havocs are t5 ?
No question it's wrong, I was just interjecting GWs possible thought process. "Look at all the different weapons you get!". "But I just want 5 of the same type". "Oh".
As an aside can Havocs still take special weapons as a codex option, or has that gone? If so obviously the Talon rule makes you want to take the heavy option but the kit completely lacks the arm options to arm them with specials, and even fails to equip them with the bare number of special weapons.
bullyboy wrote: No question it's wrong, I was just interjecting GWs possible thought process. "Look at all the different weapons you get!". "But I just want 5 of the same type". "Oh".
I don't think there was any real thought process behind the chaos design team and all of these problems are squarely on their shoulders and whoever greenlighted their laziness.
I think the design team isn't placing any thought to the game they make models to. I see it as more like "look at these 5 terminators I made" and then the team lead asked for some options to customize and the sculptor added a few and they called it a day. But that was it, the focus is on sculpting individual characters within the box rather than providing the customer with the options to make their unit characterful.
So for me, I think GW needs a new design lead for chaos. One that isn't missing the mark. There shouldn't be this many disappointed chaos players. It shouldn't need chaos white knights protecting the new releases. And for Chaos's sake who the hell put releasing a lazy terminator kit above new chaos bikers? That is a damn tragedy because new bikers are what is needed, not a boring terminator kit.
WhiteDog wrote: The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid and anybody saying the contrary is very, very wrong to stay polite. The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ? As for the terminator box, it's not just poor, it is outright insulting.
What's funny is that with this new kit, GW didn't even tried to improve terminator's rules. They're still t4, while havocs are t5 ?
He here you can now make the cheapest possible terminators.
To my knowledge the GW design team designs the models, then rules are written for them. The processes are notionally kept separate but I've severe doubts they're not just told to 'limit the number of special weapons'. Contrast this with Battlefront (who are in fairness a fairly crappy company in their own right and are currently sinking to my knowledge). Their £30 BMP kit has options for both the BMP-1 and BMP-2 - which means 10 whole plastic hulls and turrets (plus various accessories). The same with their T55 kit (PSC goes even further, their version of the T-55 builds three different variants).
Another massively disappointing factor is that the Legs and torsos aren't separate, meaning the old Forge World conversion kits are in part useless. It also makes conversion work a notable paint.
It's a tremendous shame we didn't get a kit with 10 power fists (with claws that could be attached in order to make lightning claws and parts for chainfists), and 5 power swords, power axes, mauls and chain axes, plus the 15 various combi-weapon variants (bolters, plasma, flamer, melta) and then the 2 special weapons. But at that stage GW would probably be charging £50 a box.
Thankfully Forge World does offer combi-weapon arms, but those require some cutting and conversion work, which just leaves me inclined to make use of the Plastic heresy-era Terminators. I was hoping to get the Grave Warden terminators, but they are no longer in production.
I think I'll be sitting these models out (in fact I'll be sitting all of these new kits out, since they all are incredibly disappointing) bar Abaddon who I feel is somewhat justified in his cost (being a single figure of a notable scale and level of detail).
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: As an aside can Havocs still take special weapons as a codex option, or has that gone? If so obviously the Talon rule makes you want to take the heavy option but the kit completely lacks the arm options to arm them with specials, and even fails to equip them with the bare number of special weapons.
Sadly that option is gone now, only heavy weapons on havoks now except for the champ.
WhiteDog wrote: The simple fact that you cannot build the basic loadout with a box is stupid
This I agree with, but...
WhiteDog wrote: The content of the havoc box is very poor ; you need 4 box to make a complete 5 man squad with las canon ?
... this is just wrong. No idea how you come to the conclusion of "four boxes needed for one squad", since you need two boxes to arm four Havocs with Lascannons (each box coming with two, and only four Havocs can carry heavy weapons, the fifth is always the champion). Also: the default options for not-champion Havocs are Heavy Bolter or Lascannon - of which each box has two each - so one box of Havocs can indeed build a "basic loadout" of a full unit.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So, has anyone else noticed that Chosen can now take thunder hammers? ...but Terminators can't?
Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: So, has anyone else noticed that Chosen can now take thunder hammers? ...but Terminators can't?
Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.
or they jsut keep doing what they'vebeen since forever, ignore them competely
Chosen are such a strange unit. I refuse to touch them until they receive a kit on their own. You can basically arm them however you want at the moment and I don't trust that one bit. Odds are they get Trueborned next edition.
Yep, I second this.
I used to do a lot of kit bashing and converting. I've more or less stopped now because I know that my models may become obsolete when GW actually gets around to making them.
Who knows what Chosen will do next time around. They don't even have much of a niche right now anyway except for take some special weapons.
They need to have rules like Veterans do in HH, make them specialized against specific targets.
Also, a 2+ armour save a 2 wounds would go a long way.
Roknar wrote: Trying to make the kit work somewhat and looking at the poweraxe upgrade kti from forgeworld.
Problem is they are cataphractii so you'd have to cut of all the axes and then you'd still not have enough arms to make a complete default loadout...
So I tried just putting on the cataphractii arms, I mean, chaos do scrounge right?
could this work? Although I'm not sure where to get the combi bolter arms? seems to be only axes and special wepoins are sold seprately
I used to use some Cataphractii bits for fun on some random Terminators I did. This is the old basic Terminator box, so I'm not sure about scale-matching the newer, larger Terminators.
Roknar wrote: Trying to make the kit work somewhat and looking at the poweraxe upgrade kti from forgeworld.
Problem is they are cataphractii so you'd have to cut of all the axes and then you'd still not have enough arms to make a complete default loadout...
So I tried just putting on the cataphractii arms, I mean, chaos do scrounge right?
could this work? Although I'm not sure where to get the combi bolter arms? seems to be only axes and special wepoins are sold seprately
I used to use some Cataphractii bits for fun on some random Terminators I did. This is the old basic Terminator box, so I'm not sure about scale-matching the newer, larger Terminators.
Spoiler:
thanks, they don't seem to be a huge departure scalewise and the cataphractii aren't small either so it shouldn't be an issue.
It's just not really feasible unless you happen to have some bits. I still have some arms left over so I could just get the justaerin weapons and power axes.
A good counts-as for the Power Axes could be the Halberds from the GK Terminator kit. Would need to remove the extra hand off the halberd but that doesn't seem like such a hard task.
I will casually mention that in addition to the rotocannons, Pop Goes The Monkey also has a bunch of varieties of Cataphracti shoulders and chain axes.
Does anyone know if the Chaos Marines in the Shadowspear box are different sprues/molds or the exact same as the ones in the new regular Chaos Marines box? And if they're different do you think GW will eventually sell all the Chaos kits from Shadowspear separately?
BrotherGecko wrote: So for me, I think GW needs a new design lead for chaos. One that isn't missing the mark. There shouldn't be this many disappointed chaos players. It shouldn't need chaos white knights protecting the new releases. And for Chaos's sake who the hell put releasing a lazy terminator kit above new chaos bikers? That is a damn tragedy because new bikers are what is needed, not a boring terminator kit.
Jes Goodwin is still there as oversight, no?
I mean think about the old kits that we've lost. They had lots of customisation options. I was even about thinking what I could use to spruce these up a bit to make them more unique. Looking at the old Chaos fantasy line models that are direct from GW now. Marauders, Knights, Warshrine, Lord on Manticore. Lots of chains, hooks, skulls, plenty of axes. These little fetishes are completely removed from most of the the kits today. I refuse to believe whoever is the lead on Chaos is in any way interested in the faction.Basically we're at the point where customising GW miniatures is getting increasingly difficult and if your army can't be unique to you then what's the point?
From the voxcast interviews the view I'm getting is that they are interested in promoting customization by mixing parts between different kits, not giving all the options in one kit - but that philosophy might only hold true for the Primaris line.
Carlovonsexron wrote: From the voxcast interviews the view I'm getting is that they are interested in promoting customization by mixing parts between different kits, not giving all the options in one kit - but that philosophy might only hold true for the Primaris line.
Given the way GW minis are desgiend these days I think it's clear that this is demonstrably false.
There has definitely been a lot more bile for chaos than for other faction updates. GSC was nothing but praise. Death Guard didnt get this much hate, despite being the beginning of GWs monopose philosophy. DG did get hate for that, but that was the only complaint. With this release, many more people are disappointed.
Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.
Grey Knights and Space Marine terminators are boring by comparison, having next to no customization, but hey, they have lots of weapon options.
The bar that Chaos players have put their expectations is astronomically high. Yall want perfect rules, kits with every option under the sun, and for GW to give you all those models for free. It just ain't happening on any front.
I'm personally enjoying the kits and I'll have a fantastic chaos army when the slaanesh daemons and emperors children hit the scene. The new KoS, a horde of venomcrawlers, all supported by blastmasters and, hopefully, fulgrim.
3 sprue Termis have no reason to be more expensive than their 2 sprue new kit except for "GW says so". Havocs have 3 sprues, CSM do have 3, many kits do. Restricting Termis to 2 is nothing but either being cheap or putting in less effort. And adding multiple copies of weapons you sculpted specifically for that kit is not that hard, soooo...yeah.
At least the Havocs and CSM look really nice. The Havoc champ is more imposing than most metal CSM heros!
SeanDrake wrote: I dropped into my lfgs yesterday and saw the chaos players building Havocs and stuff and for some reason a movie quote just popped into my head.
"Begun the Clone War has."
Monopose sculpts in a mass battle game is bad mmmkkk
Massively overpriced Monopse kits one tiny step above easy build kits are even worse.
But hey ho new GW something something Facebook page.
I prefer the modularity of the older kits myself, but I think describing the new CSM, Terminators, and Havocs as "one step above easy build" is unnecessary hyperbole. The only chief difference is that the torsos are moulded to the legs in most of the models. The arms, heads, and accessories are still interchangeable. GW has even explicitly stated that the Havocs kitbash readily with the CSM. We have lost customisation ability, but it is still miles away from easy to build.
Now the Shadowspear CSM are literally one step above easy to build. They are monopose, with zero options, but require glue to construct. That is just above etb. The multipart kits are still way away from that.
I love this idea that GW providing a kit that would cover the basic equipment the unit comes with is somehow them giving us stuff for "free". The mark up GW make is insane.
drbored wrote: Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.
There's ten giant spike sets that could easily have been replaced with weapons enough that I'd actually get that kit. Normally I'm on GW's side, the havoc and marine kits are more or fine to me, quite literally what I asked for a few months back when I said I wanted to see havoc and chaos marine kits like the genestealer cult ones. This terminator kit? I'd have to buy five of them to do the load out they recommended, or I get to see how well the scale of forge world chain axes stands up to them and buy a second box so I have enough combi bolters.
If I get them, they're character fodder, then possibly a serious consideration to make a unit out of the second box, but this weapon loadout is just sad, especially compared to the other boxes. If they want to throw a 20 buck sprue out there that doubles up on nothing but termi weapons, I'd actually consider them, but as is even I'm backing away from that kit.
Problem is, theres no way GW can win. You call not having chainaxes in the terminator kit "lazy" but if you had any decent number of weapon options that would add a new sprue and a box of 5 terminators would cost 70+ bucks, which people wont pay for a unit that doesn't even do well on the table.
The 3 sprue kit would not have to cost 70 US buck unless GW actually want to beat their growth last year (which is double), and there're also that option to sell 2 sprues kit at approriate 2 sprue kit price.
But yeah, why make more, when they can make less and still sell at the same price? And people'd buy it anyway, Investors will be pleased, sculptor be happy he didn't had to waste more time designing a 3rd sprue and figure out which extra bits he had to put in to fill the blank.
Kill Team makes some sense as GW has already done that with GSC, the Chaos Sorcerer is a Commanders option and there is a brand new CSM kit to put together a faction starter with. Plus, Heretic Astartes doesn't have a starter yet.
Yeah its definitely an outside chance. But I wouldn't want to rule it out. Some kind of super coven unit, or a crewed/ridden demon engine could be possible.
Yeah its definitely an outside chance. But I wouldn't want to rule it out. Some kind of super coven unit, or a crewed/ridden demon engine could be possible.
I could see Apocalypse coming with some new generic characters released, to freshen up the releases or the like.
But I think the Kill-Team avenue is more reasonable. We know there's the Kill Team "Elites" expansion still to come, but we don't really know what will come with it aside from The Fractal Blades and Toofrippa's Krew sets...both of which just seem to be pricier kits than a KT+Commander option.
I do think the sorcerer will be part of a group. Maybe because I already have the finecast one, I don't see me getting the new one unless it comes with something else I could use. Besides, I think the Master of Possession makes a great count as if I didn't already have one or wanted to run two. The MoP already looks the part far more than my finecast one.
Grey Knight terminators being boring when they have a ton of customization with 10 helmets (in two styles, 5 and 5), bare heads, hands holding demon heads, standards, weapons, etc...
What kind of customization do this new terminators have? Heads that are more homogeneus than the previous one, lack of TENTACLE ARM, and basically 1 of each weapon.
As others have said, NO, this could have been a three sprue kit for the same price as many others shown. GW was the one that decide this kit had to be done in two sprues for absolutely no reason.
Monopose sculpts in a mass battle game is bad mmmkkk
Massively overpriced Monopse kits one tiny step above easy build kits are even worse.
I might be in the minority, but as a modeler first and a gamer second, I think stuff like the DW:OK monopose kits work fine for most infantry. Being able to swap in weapons, heads, details, and sergeant gear (in other words, stock bodies and arms for most guys) I don't think would notably hurt just about any line but some of the more creative renegade/ork sort of kitbashes. But, only if the idea is you're able to make cheaper line infantry or whatever. Like, I'd be happy if my Neophyte Cultists had all been one of 9 poses and I got to pick heads, auto/shotguns, special weapons and the sergeant's arms, if the sprue efficiency cut 1/3 off the price.
But, the problem is that latter bit: they're still charging more. Just like PVC had me dropping out of WM when they kept charging the same prices as metal, I'm not going to tolerate those high prices and them just making the models cheaper for GW to produce (or, in this case, the slap in the face that is some seemingly intentionally poor options) without seeing a decent price. I'll stick to kitbashing my old marines, when GW could have seen me buying new kits of theirs, if they'd made them well and priced them reasonably.
As a heads up for anyone buying Abaddon and wanting to build him and paint components:
I highly suggest building the cape onto the shoulderpads, as per the instruction, and also attaching it to the trophy rack on Abaddon's back. It's a very snug fit otherwise and can potentially break something after you've been painting!
Manfred von Drakken wrote: What's there to conspiracy about? CSM squads and terminators got updated, and the cultists got reboxed. Nothing to see, here.
massive pricedrop, on cultists, ergo we will probably see new cultists?
I mean, About Bloddy time, but yeah, i guess that is what he wants to point out.,
Manfred von Drakken wrote: What's there to conspiracy about? CSM squads and terminators got updated, and the cultists got reboxed. Nothing to see, here.
Some of that stuff(the Terminator Lord's Cadre, specifically) hasn't been available for quite some time either.
Carlovonsexron wrote: From the voxcast interviews the view I'm getting is that they are interested in promoting customization by mixing parts between different kits, not giving all the options in one kit - but that philosophy might only hold true for the Primaris line.
Given the way GW minis are desgiend these days I think it's clear that this is demonstrably false.
How? With both the Primaris and the new CSM most of the bits are interchangeable between the kits. It just that the rule writers refuse to do anything with this potential. It is not the models which are the problem it is the rules. Have you actually build any of these kits you constantly keep spreading false information about?
The Lord Discordant getting a week all to himself is rather weak, but whatever. I'm not even done assembling the Shadowspear box I got this week and I'm getting a box of CSM, a box of Havocs or two, maybe Abaddon if he's back in stock and just maaaybe the Termis next weekend. A slow week won't kill me I'll skip him for a while, I never bought dinobots and don't really like them. But I *would* have bought a Dark Apostle.
Carlovonsexron wrote: Given the way GW minis are desgiend these days I think it's clear that this is demonstrably false.
How? With both the Primaris and the new CSM most of the bits are interchangeable between the kits. It just that the rule writers refuse to do anything with this potential. It is not the models which are the problem it is the rules. Have you actually build any of these kits you constantly keep spreading false information about?
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
In the new kits, torsos and leg components are matched together. Unless you were going all out and buying Mark 3 and 4 armor and also buying Forge World kits- there wasn't much 'customization', it was just more parts to glue together- and everything you could add to it for customization (tabard pieces, pouches, holsters, etc.) wasn't much different (though Mark 3 has the best pouches), and most of that kibble can still be attached to the new kits.
Two arms holding a weapon are matched up, giving them a wider variety of poses when paired with the legs. And don't pretend the old kits did any better- it was pretty much the same pose holding a bolter or special weapon, with the same arms. All of the old arms are completely compatible with the new kits. Primaris arms are compatible with the new kits. Original loyalist arms are compatible with the new kits. And vice versa.
If you want to use backpacks from older kits, you just cut the little 'pyramid' nub off the back, and glue the backpack on. Mark 3, Mark 4, Deathwatch, Old CSM backpacks, jump packs- it's all the same. Primaris backpacks also work.
You can glue damned near any head you want onto any of the bodies, beakies might be a little tricky with some torsos but that's about it.
So let's be honest- nothing has been 'taken' from your pool of customization options. Things have been added. You do not have fewer options than before, you now have more options than before. You can take arms, legs, heads, backpacks, weapons, etc. from the new kits and kitbash them with the old kits. The new Havocs are ALSO compatible with the new CSM kit and the older stuff as well.
The sad thing is that with Chaos Space Marines, you have some legitimate complaints to be made about the army... but it seems like people gravitate over and just complain about literally everything. No wonder GW didn't do anything with this faction for nearly 15 years.
I am truely happy for all the Chaos fans out there...after all, the Havocs look rather badass...and the Marines look very "flexible" as to which evil deity they worship...
...BUT HOW LONG IS THIS FRIGGINNG CHAOS PRE-ORDER CRAP GOING ON FOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR????
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Its just that its now been FIVE! weeks of Chaos and nothing but Chaos...and its getting to the point where I feel I have to purchase something Chaos to appease the plastic overlords whom reside in Nottingham, just to resume pre-orders that are NOT Chaos-related!
Once again, I am sorry for my out burst - I'm an emotional chap - but I do forsee the next issue of White Dwarf being a glorified argos catalogue dedicated to the forces of the foul fiends from the warp...
Im glad for the long csm release window, hopefully followed by a few weeks of shadespire and sigmar. I dont play either, and my wallet needs the relief from an upcoming fw order, heresygirls kickstarter, and maybe artel w. So bring on another week of csm characters after the lord discordant. Or at least drop the last clampacks alongside some sigmar.
Kanluwen wrote: As a heads up for anyone buying Abaddon and wanting to build him and paint components:
I highly suggest building the cape onto the shoulderpads, as per the instruction, and also attaching it to the trophy rack on Abaddon's back. It's a very snug fit otherwise and can potentially break something after you've been painting!
How does Abby compare to regular Terminators? Would you say he's the right size for a "true scale" Terminator if you use Primaris as "true scale" Marines?
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
SamusDrake wrote:I am truely happy for all the Chaos fans out there...after all, the Havocs look rather badass...and the Marines look very "flexible" as to which evil deity they worship...
...BUT HOW LONG IS THIS FRIGGINNG CHAOS PRE-ORDER CRAP GOING ON FOOOORRRRRRRRRRRR????
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Its just that its now been FIVE! weeks of Chaos and nothing but Chaos...and its getting to the point where I feel I have to purchase something Chaos to appease the plastic overlords whom reside in Nottingham, just to resume pre-orders that are NOT Chaos-related!
Once again, I am sorry for my out burst - I'm an emotional chap - but I do forsee the next issue of White Dwarf being a glorified argos catalogue dedicated to the forces of the foul fiends from the warp...
That's what happens when GW gets Chaos constipation for decades. It builds and builds until the dam breaks releasing everything at once. Now they just need an Eldar movement to clear out their system for a bit. GW should be more regular after that. If not, they should get more fiber in their diet. Everyone knows while space marines are good, they just don't have the fiber content to stay regular. You need a varied diet of all faction to keep the system running regular.
Kanluwen wrote: As a heads up for anyone buying Abaddon and wanting to build him and paint components:
I highly suggest building the cape onto the shoulderpads, as per the instruction, and also attaching it to the trophy rack on Abaddon's back. It's a very snug fit otherwise and can potentially break something after you've been painting!
How does Abby compare to regular Terminators? Would you say he's the right size for a "true scale" Terminator if you use Primaris as "true scale" Marines?
He's notably larger than regular Terminators, if I had to eyeball him. I tried mounting him on a 40mm for painting purposes but ended up using a large oval base instead.
If you're really motivated? I guess it could work...but really there's a lot of stuff you'd have to do for it. In case it helps, GW actually did a scale shot of him with a Primaris:
Spoiler:
Oh! And there's also a small double sided poster in the (fairly nice) display box as well. One side is this: The other side is this art, minus Abaddon's model covering it up:
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Folks that think this chaos release is long are in for more further down the line
Rumour engine sorcerer backpack piece was never shown in this wave of releases suggesting there might yet be another wave of releases which would make sense as they could get the sorcerer, multipart venom crawler, multi part obliterators/ mutilators, chosen etc
While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Literally the only thing you can't use with the new kits is the old torsos. That's the only thing. The new kit in no way limits your options, when your options for everything else are still there and this new kit is reverse-compatible with that.
The Shadowspear stuff is all monopose, not the new CSM kit.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Literally the only thing you can't use with the new kits is the old torsos. That's the only thing. The new kit in no way limits your options, when your options for everything else are still there and this new kit is reverse-compatible with that.
The Shadowspear stuff is all monopose, not the new CSM kit.
How is not being able to swap the torso adding MORE variety? We definitely don't have more options in the sprue for it. At least in terms of space, individual sprues are a different story (looking at you terminators)
I did say the new csm kit is fine in that sense. It has both monopose and modular parts, best of both worlds.
Removing the option for torsos is quite a sizable chunk of customization you loose, unless you're strict with your armour patterns, nevermind posability/conversions.
I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!
Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.
If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!
Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.
If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.
Or maybe they're not buying GW kits because of bad business practices?
A bad sprue is still a bad sprue. And it's not like GW doesn't have excellent kits while also selling stinkers.
Just brushing over everything calling people complainers won't help anybody.
EVERYBODY benefits from a good sprue, how much you make yourself has nothing to do with the quality of the sprues.
A car will still somewhat drive with three tires, but nobody does that because people would riot.
How is not being able to swap the torso adding MORE variety? We definitely don't have more options in the sprue for it. At least in terms of space, individual sprues are a different story (looking at you terminators)
I did say the new csm kit is fine in that sense. It has both monopose and modular parts, best of both worlds.
Removing the option for torsos is quite a sizable chunk of customization you loose, unless you're strict with your armour patterns, nevermind posability/conversions.
Are the old kits no longer available?
This kit adds more variety, because if you don't like these torsos and leg combos- you still have everything else to add to the old torsos.
People really do be out here wilding up GW's arse.
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
Very drole. Only really works when GW is producing spare bits across ranges to customise them with.
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
Very drole. Only really works when GW is producing spare bits across ranges to customise them with.
At the end of the day it's about enjoying your hobby yeah? I've got a bits box full of things that will make for great conversions on my terminators. It has nothing to do with brown nosing GW and everything to do with perspective. From my perspective, y'all need to find something else to complain about. Could GW have done more? Absolutely. I'll be telling them so in the community survey since that seems to be the only time they really listen. But, the kit is the kit. Buy it or dont. Vote with your dollars. I'm ok with it so I'll get it and enjoy it.
Complaining about torsos and legs being combined into one part is just dumb. The poses are more dynamic and detailed because of it. I dont miss the separate twerking legs and the boring robotic poses that that "customization" allowed. That's the only difference, but somehow that makes them "etb-ish" or "monopose". They look better, hands down.
After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).
I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.
I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.
Complaining about torsos and legs being combined into one part is just dumb. The poses are more dynamic and detailed because of it. I dont miss the separate twerking legs and the boring robotic poses that that "customization" allowed. That's the only difference, but somehow that makes them "etb-ish" or "monopose". They look better, hands down.
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
Wow. Way to call everyone who has a problem with GW's current style of kit design stupid and uncreative.
Marshal Loss wrote: While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.
At the very least, we'll see a new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines at some point.
Back in January or February, we got a price sheet leaked that had a few SCs that we don't have yet as part of the "price raise" bit.
We still haven't seen the Death Guard one, nor have we seen the Genestealer Cultist SC that was in their book.
I'm, personally, speculating that the Shadowspear halves will be released as SC boxes later this year. They're fairly tame in terms of content.
Marshal Loss wrote: While a Sorcerer is definitely coming at some point, perhaps as part of a BSF expansion, I wouldn't get your hopes up for anything else this year. Seems rather unlikely.
At the very least, we'll see a new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines at some point.
Back in January or February, we got a price sheet leaked that had a few SCs that we don't have yet as part of the "price raise" bit.
We still haven't seen the Death Guard one, nor have we seen the Genestealer Cultist SC that was in their book.
I'm, personally, speculating that the Shadowspear halves will be released as SC boxes later this year. They're fairly tame in terms of content.
I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.
The Thunderstrike Brotherhood and Goreblade Warband boxes for AoS were the previous starter set's components, split off into two SCs.
The only reason I keep harping on this is it seems like, conceptually, it's a good avenue to take for something that is actually "new" versus discounting full kits right off the bat.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I don't think the Shadowspear stuff will be in SC boxes. Probably going to see stuff like First Strike and whatnot be discontinued and replaced with Shadowspear sprue boxes. So they would be similar, but not the same thing.
The Thunderstrike Brotherhood and Goreblade Warband boxes for AoS were the previous starter set's components, split off into two SCs.
The only reason I keep harping on this is it seems like, conceptually, it's a good avenue to take for something that is actually "new" versus discounting full kits right off the bat.
Interesting. I forgot about those. You would think they would do something similar with the Genestealer Cults from the old Deathwatch v. GSC game from years ago too. I don't think the Shadowspear contents would constitute a $85-$95 box though. Then again, the main box was overpriced, so maybe?
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
Wow. Way to call everyone who has a problem with GW's current style of kit design stupid and uncreative.
Yeah, the people who disagree with him are just wrong and stupid, those that agree will be correct and brilliant.
That's not poisoning the well, that's snickering behind a punchbowl and waiting to see if someone will get a cup full after you put a sheet over your head and pooped in it while everyone was watching.
drbored wrote: If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.
"If you don't like the President, or the war, or the law- why don't you just leave the country? Let me guess, you're probably a criminal!"
Let's put it this way, dude- you sound more like you're defending a lover than you are a toy company. Whether you love those little plastic men that much, or you're feeling like you've been attacked for what you spent your money on- the statements you've made are not okay or clever. At all. I mean, they're not even funny, and I'd give you credit for that even if you were wrong.
People can have complaints about a few things here and there and not hate the company. Just because we like 40k, we like this game and hobby- it doesn't mean we have to be thrilled with everything GW does. I have complaints about some things my significant other does sometimes, that doesn't mean I should just dump her and hurl her stuff out onto the lawn- that means I voice my complaints, I sometimes get feedback from other people, and I see what changes as time passes.
If you wanna know what's really bad for a company? Guys that shout down that company's critics. Honest and open criticism actually helps a company to develop their products and services and tailor them to the customers. When you try to shout that down, you're not helping. You're not 'supporting' them. You're not doing anyone any favors, you're just raging into the wind. And then the casual passerby sees someone doing exactly as you are, and they think this game attracts rabid sycophants- and then they go do something else.
So, good job being even worse than the people you're complaining about, dude.
BrotherGecko wrote: After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).
I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.
I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.
I pretty much agree with everything your saying. But I'd go further and say some of the newer models are split up into far too many tiny pieces <Fiends>. While it does help minimize the mold lines it exacerbates the number of hair-line gaps you have to fill. I don't now what it is but here has to be a median between mono-pose and assembling a jigsaw puzzle with plastic glue.
drbored wrote: I think we have beaten the "monopose" vs "customization" argument to death. Nobody is changing any minds here. The people that want to complain will complain and those that are more creative and better with glue and clippers will see those complainers as the complainers that they are.
I just finished building the Noctilith Crown and holy crap it is huge. Talk about a centerpiece model!!
Also, I'm totally fine with GW stretching this release out a bit. Vigilus 2 JUST CAME OUT YESTERDAY. Most players have t even finalized their lists with the new points values and models, let alone have they gotten a chance to play any of the new missions. Some of you clearly dont remember the days when GW wouldnt have any releases or updates for months. This isnt a video game where they can push out DLC in a day. Build, paint, play with what you have. By the time you're done with all those projects sitting on your desk I'm sure GW will have released something that all you complainers are going to buy anyway.
If this company is so lazy and evil and money grubbing, why are any of you even here? Oh, wait, let me guess, you get kits for cheap or you buy recast or you buy 3rd party. If any of those are the case, then your opinion matters even less because you're not even supporting the company that is making the product you're complaining about.
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
BrotherGecko wrote: After assembling a couple hundred power armor dudes I can say there isn't too much variation to twisting torsos once you take in account the arms, weapon and legs of the model. The legs and arms produce a natural flow to the posing that twisting the torso often leaves people making models that have broken spines (especially since the belt buckle is attached to the chest and not the legs).
I don't have the new CSM kit but I've got the DG ones and I have managed to get about the same customization out of them. I appreciate the torso attached to the legs if it means bits come already sculpted on. The pouches and knives being separate bits never fit and always looked very awkward but I want them so I think its an acceptable compromise. Besides being able to change the arms, heads, shoulders and backpack is enough variation to change silhouette especially if you add some variation into your paint scheme on a model to model basis.
I still don't like the new terminators or havocs but the CSM kit is probably about as on the mark as I could reasonably ask for.
I pretty much agree with everything your saying. But I'd go further and say some of the newer models are split up into far too many tiny pieces <Fiends>. While it does help minimize the mold lines it exacerbates the number of hair-line gaps you have to fill. I don't now what it is but here has to be a median between mono-pose and assembling a jigsaw puzzle with plastic glue.
I have only two complaints about the new CSM
1)I just wish the torso fronts could be mix and matched
2) You need the instructions on hand to match arms to weapons, witch can slow down the building process. you will also need a box of plastic MKIII or IV marines on hand if you wish to use the Forge World Upgrade weapon sets for the arms.
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
It also still lists the old fixed unit size of 3 with the old point costs, instead of the new 1-3 which is in the new datasheet, so it's definitely wrong.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Hold up there.
I love modularity. I really do.
But I jumped right into creating a Thousand Sons army when those kits came out, for the first time in nearly a decade, and.... WOW. I was so bored by that twelfth torso, fifteenth set of legs, etc... I stalled badly a number of times.
I actually agree with you on the standard Chaos kit. Sticking with the Rubrics, I'd have preferred it to be the other way round: Rubrics with monopose legs+torsos attached (because, as I remember, you couldn't actually rotate their torsos much anyway), to cut down on the assembly, while the standard chaos marines have separate legs and torsos, as well as separate tabards, etc. BUT I also appreciate that this really begins to take up sprue real estate that wasn't entirely needed for the Thousand Sons who had far less wargear options.
Swings and roundabouts. I can see why either approach is taken, and advantages and disadvantages to both.
What it comes down to to me is this: The new Chaos Marines look really good. And converters (like me) will convert regardless of the relative difficulty.
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
nothing yet the FAQ'll address it. logic would dictate that we use the shadowspear cost, as the codex points are almost certainly a misprint. at the same time, precident is that we use the codex cost.
Speaking of, has anyone noticed that Obliterator points are not listed in Vigilus. Do we have any information on the *actual* points cost of Obliterators?
The mini-dex in Shadowspear has the points values for the models in the box. 115 pts for an Oblit. I guess that's as official as it gets and the 65 points listed in Codex V2 should reasonably be considered a misprint (yeah, that's currently only an opinion until we get the FAQ, but come on!).
Does not Codexes take precedence? What has GW actually said about this issue?
nothing yet the FAQ'll address it. logic would dictate that we use the shadowspear cost, as the codex points are almost certainly a misprint. at the same time, precedent is that we use the codex cost.
That was my understanding. Hopefully they have received enough complaints they'll leave the codex cost as is, the shadowspear cost is absurd.
With how arbitrary GW point costs can be or how bad rules can be for some models I don't think we should leap to "it must be a misprint". After all, csm 2.0 is a newer book than shadowspear.
Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
The reason it's pretty much 100% a misprint is that it lists the unit size of Obliterators as 3, not 1-3 as the new datasheet does. So the Obliterators at 65 points, unit of 3...is straight out of the old codex and is incorrect.
Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'm getting a bit tired of this whole "nEw KiTs ArE lEsS cUsToMiZaBle" That's not entirely correct, in fact- it's only a tiny bit correct.
Yeah, I just built a squad of the Old Chaos Space Marines and while they are some of my most unique posed, it wasn't due to the kit itself. I am not fussed at all about the waist being one pose with the new kit. I would have to really look at my old CSM models to even notice they slight rotation I put in them. Adeptus Doritos is correct about the arms. There are about 6 different poses including the chainsword and pistol options with the old kit. All of the bolter/melta/plasma/flamer arms are the same save three types of doo-dad (spike, rivets, skull), and yield three general poses (firing, weapon up, weapon down). The old power packs also don't have much variation. A quick look at the new CSM sprue and it looks like the arms all have slightly different bends to varied between models and look better over all without a good deal of modeling work.
As for customization, I took inspiration from the Shadowspear CSM for poses as the bolt pistol and chainsword monoposes look way better than anything default the old kit could do. And chopping the old kit to pose them similarly was about as much as I would imagine chopping up the monopose to get a little extra mileage out them. And that is before the new CSM kit. I am going to hold off building mine until my Havocs arrive as for the foreseeable future the new kit are going to be my Chosen and loaded up with special weapons most likely with the old CSM continuing to be my Troop marines.
Honestly, I think there are at least 30 really good looking poses out new CSM kit if you count Shadowspear. I personally think after about 30, maybe even 20, and repeats are much of an issue so long as the twin models are right next to each other. They just get lost in the crowd at that point. I know as much as I try to make each model its own thing, that greatly fades away once they are in the game anyways.
forgeworld upgrade kits would like to have a word with the two of you. as well as third party producers.
Some amount of monopose kits are fine, like when they release them in a boxed game. But they should go the extra length to make them more modular in their standalone kits.
Or half and half like they did with the new csm kit. It's not even about fitting mlore on a sprue, they could fit modular bodies and every weapon PLUS an icon into rubrics with three sprues.
There's no reason they would need monopose kits
Hold up there.
I love modularity. I really do.
But I jumped right into creating a Thousand Sons army when those kits came out, for the first time in nearly a decade, and.... WOW. I was so bored by that twelfth torso, fifteenth set of legs, etc... I stalled badly a number of times.
I actually agree with you on the standard Chaos kit. Sticking with the Rubrics, I'd have preferred it to be the other way round: Rubrics with monopose legs+torsos attached (because, as I remember, you couldn't actually rotate their torsos much anyway), to cut down on the assembly, while the standard chaos marines have separate legs and torsos, as well as separate tabards, etc. BUT I also appreciate that this really begins to take up sprue real estate that wasn't entirely needed for the Thousand Sons who had far less wargear options.
Swings and roundabouts. I can see why either approach is taken, and advantages and disadvantages to both.
What it comes down to to me is this: The new Chaos Marines look really good. And converters (like me) will convert regardless of the relative difficulty.
I could see an argument be made for line infantry vs more elite stuff. Especially hordes.
I had bought into manic zombies and I started to get sick of them after a while, so I get what you mean. And it doesn't take 100 models for fatigue to set in.
When I look at kits, I often want modular arms, back packs and heads. Modular torsos are good as well but I do not think they are 100% necessary. I just want a ton of bitz so I can make my dudesmen look cool and different than other people's dudesmen.
If everyone's dudesmen look the same, we may as well just go back to the 3-piece Blackreach marines, which would cut down a lot on assembly time which means I could get my stuff painted and on the battlefield a lot faster.
As for pouches and the like, I am 100% happy to have those molded on the body because the sculptor will take the time to craft them appropriately. None of the old tactical marine pouches or grenades were sized properly for the model. I mean some of the pouches were more like small backpacks, awkwardly fastened to a belt than a real pouch.
Kirasu wrote: With how arbitrary GW point costs can be or how bad rules can be for some models I don't think we should leap to "it must be a misprint". After all, csm 2.0 is a newer book than shadowspear.
Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
It probably is a misprint, but even if it is a misprint, at this moment that fact doesn't really mean much. Point costs are one of the few things that have such an absolute interpretation that even IF GW intended some other point cost there isn't any basis to say its one cost or another over what's printed. People are pointing to the rules in the Shadowspear set as a basis for "intention", but if I remember correctly GW just as quickly changed the rules and costs of the Armiger when it was introduced in Forgebane and revised with the Knight codex. Its a pretty flimsy position to argue that something that is intended to be superseded by the codex some how doesn't. In several of these boxed sets we've seen GW set points differently than the final codex rules, and its usually to make the rules match what's in the box. To reiterate we can't rely on the boxed sets to govern how we interpret the codex.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?
There is not.
Nothing for Death Guard either.
Correct. Though neither of them are on Vigilus, so it makes sense.
Whats that listed right under the Black Legion then? Note that i dont see the Red Corsairs listed, but they got stuff.
Huh. I was wrong then. Weird omission by GW. Especially since they talk about the Red Corsairs elsewhere as if they were there (they are forming the blockade around Vigilus).
Kirasu wrote: Is it a misprint? Probably. Yet they're also flat out bad at balancing pretty much anything so who knows!
Personally I'm waiting for them to tell us that T5 was a misprint.
They mentioned it in the tactica, it wasn't a misprint. Also makes absolutely no sense to me. Between that an the chaingun, the stats are going ridiculous…
topaxygouroun i wrote: Can anyone confirm if there are any specialist detachments for Thousand Sons described in the Vigilus book?
There is not.
Nothing for Death Guard either.
Correct. Though neither of them are on Vigilus, so it makes sense.
There are Death Guard on Vigilis, they are one of the earlier threats to manifest. A plague ship lands in one of the city spaceports and a small band of Death Guard pop out, spreading Nugleyness and Gellerpox and ravaging one of the hive sprawls.
Marius Xerxes wrote: Death Guard and The Purge got into a fight on Vigilus over their differing aspects of Nurgle and fought each other to a stalemate if I read correctly.
you did which honestly I thought was a really neat twist that showed that not everyone worships the gods in the same way
I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Galef wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Good job GW!
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GW has always presented kitbashes using 100% of their own products for decades; I'm not sure why them doing so yet again would be a surprise. Now, if they instead went back to using things like toy/model kits from other companies along with everyday household products instead then that would be a pleasant surprise.
Galef wrote: I'm pleasantly surprised GW would present a kit-bash article. I've always LOVED conversions but recently GW seems to be allergic to acknowledging them, much less telling how to do them (outside of WD anyway)
Good job GW!
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GW has always presented kitbashes using 100% of their own products for decades; I'm not sure why them doing so yet again would be a surprise. Now, if they instead went back to using things like toy/model kits from other companies along with everyday household products instead then that would be a pleasant surprise.
Warhammer TV has done several kitbash tutorials as well.
The kitbashes are cool. I just wish they'd sell upgrade sprues with enough to accomplish this without having to buy whole kits for bits, but GW needs to take all the money.
I was thinking of using the Noise Marine weapons with the new kits, but seeing the bits on the new bodies, they more than show their age. I think I can do it better with 3rd party bits.
Maybe GW can do a video about how to kitbash 5 standard loadout Chaos terminators with the new kit next.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note these kitbashes are becoming harder/more expensive to do. Enjoy buying the Skullcrusher kit directly from GW for those heads. Same with many of the other fetishes that come from Old World kits that they now keep locked away to themselves.
It's laughable that some think that adding more weapon options would magically increase price by 20$. What GW prices their models at is often pure fantasy pulled from the aether. Look at the 5th edition kits like blood angels or grey knights. Tons of options for LESS that current kits with almost 0 options.
Kirasu wrote: It's laughable that some think that adding more weapon options would magically increase price by 20$. What GW prices their models at is often pure fantasy pulled from the aether. Look at the 5th edition kits like blood angels or grey knights. Tons of options for LESS that current kits with almost 0 options.
Exactly. The cost of production of a kit has barely any incidence on it's price.
Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
SamusDrake wrote: Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
SamusDrake wrote: Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
nope chaos only
Chaos fluff-wise has historically had a lot more trouble with even just maintaining ammunition levels compared to well-supplied loyalists, so it makes sense that chaos has a weapon that uses up 8,000 rounds in ten seconds.
SamusDrake wrote: Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
nope chaos only
Chaos fluff-wise has historically had a lot more trouble with even just maintaining ammunition levels compared to well-supplied loyalists, so it makes sense that chaos has a weapon that uses up 8,000 rounds in ten seconds.
Nothing makes sense about that abomination.
It's one weapon, same size as heavy bolter, almost as good as 3 heavy bolter, no reason.
Mothman wrote: Chaos live a frugal life, conserve ammo and maintain what you have so you can spend big on the days that count
Cheat days, some would say.
But, considering the demon-engine levels that are coming out now, perhaps chaos is finally getting to the point where their supplies are more stable?
Or it uses MINDBULLETS!!11!!
Wasn't that how the old Kai Gun worked?
Dang I miss my Kai Gun.
I would say daemon engines are probably a consequence of poor supply lines. You keep your daemon engine properly fed and it just draws ammo endlessly from hammer-space. Its not like the Hades cannons on a Forgefiend has a way to actually store ammo.
SamusDrake wrote: Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
nope chaos only
Chaos fluff-wise has historically had a lot more trouble with even just maintaining ammunition levels compared to well-supplied loyalists, so it makes sense that chaos has a weapon that uses up 8,000 rounds in ten seconds.
Lol. This is what I mean about idiotic and inconsistent fluff, using the warp to make bullets would be trivial.
SamusDrake wrote: Is the Reaper Chain cannon in the Havocs set available for ordinary Imperial marines? I'm looking for a replacement for the assault cannon marine in Space Crusade...
nope chaos only
Chaos fluff-wise has historically had a lot more trouble with even just maintaining ammunition levels compared to well-supplied loyalists, so it makes sense that chaos has a weapon that uses up 8,000 rounds in ten seconds.
Lol. This is what I mean about idiotic and inconsistent fluff, using the warp to make bullets would be trivial.
Everything I understand about the Warp suggests this would not be trivial, and would probably be very dangerous unless the sigils were crafted by a very skilled Warpsmith (and then just moderately dangerous...).
A better explanation is simply that the Reaper chaincannon is based on the Rotor cannon, and therefore uses much simpler ammo than a heavy bolter. Why it gets such powerful stats is the inconsistent part.
HBs are getting the short end of the stick since forever, sadly. Were they not D3 damage in 2ed/Necromunda?
They shoot projectiles that are somewhat armour-piercing self-propelled grenades that are between a modern GL and a RPG-7 projectile in size, though exact dimensions vary between texts.The ones on the havoc are roughly fist-sized. At hundreds of rounds per minute. Things should messily go boom when it fires. A heavy stubber should not come close to it stat-wise and a gatling not several times as good.
The date for this year’s Big Community Survey – your chance to let us know how we’re doing and influence the kind of content, rules and models we give you – has been revealed! You’ll be able to make your voice heard from the 15th of April – and this time around, we’re asking for your feedback on 3 key areas.
Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
The date for this year’s Big Community Survey – your chance to let us know how we’re doing and influence the kind of content, rules and models we give you – has been revealed! You’ll be able to make your voice heard from the 15th of April – and this time around, we’re asking for your feedback on 3 key areas.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
My problem isn't with point cost. My problem is that for things that according to fluff and common sense should have similar profile, we now usually have the newer option getting rules that massively outperform the classic version.
The Kellermorph's stub pistols should be appropriately the same as boltgun, they are incredibly better. The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
Remember that even one point of stat is a huge difference in fluff in 40k. 1 point of strength is the difference between a conscript and a space marine! One more shot is the difference in rate of fire between a sniper rifle, and a full-auto machine-gun at short range!
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?
I'm not sure what you're getting at- you're bothered that a gun that costs as much as 2 other guns puts out more shots, but at a shorter range?
Hey I love miniguns like anyone else but, if they cost as much points as two heavy B's, the extra stand off range of heavy Bs, especially on the move can be good, my opinion of course.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
The relative cost or value of the heavy bolter is fairly irrelevant because no one has used them in all of the record history of csm units. Only guy that used a heavy bolter is probably someone that bought a boxset and didn't have enough money to get a different weapon
RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.
RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)
And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs. And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes
AngryAngel80 wrote: Hey I love miniguns like anyone else but, if they cost as much points as two heavy B's, the extra stand off range of heavy Bs, especially on the move can be good, my opinion of course.
They're a situational gun, I think. Good for Infiltrating Havocs. I still crutch on the Heavy Bolter, and have always believed in having some guys with them- just doesn't feel like Space Marines if I don't have a few Heavy Bubbas on a few guys.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?
Looking at Havocs, by the time you get 2 Chaincannons you already have a Heavy Bolter squad ready to go. The extra 40 points is almost a whole other Cultist squad. Chaincannons might be offensively better but it's at an appropriate cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Nobody. Like I said, what invalidates the Heavy Bolter in infantry squads like Havocs is the Autocannon. Why there are complaints about Chaincannons doing it makes absolutely no sense.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
My problem isn't with point cost. My problem is that for things that according to fluff and common sense should have similar profile, we now usually have the newer option getting rules that massively outperform the classic version.
The Kellermorph's stub pistols should be appropriately the same as boltgun, they are incredibly better. The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
Remember that even one point of stat is a huge difference in fluff in 40k. 1 point of strength is the difference between a conscript and a space marine! One more shot is the difference in rate of fire between a sniper rifle, and a full-auto machine-gun at short range!
Yeah, it does. Two heavy bolters have two less shots and they have an extra foot of range.
If we added an extra shot to each heavy bolter, they would suddenly be a better weapon than a Chaincannon, right? Almost as though it's a balanced choice. Big think.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
The relative cost or value of the heavy bolter is fairly irrelevant because no one has used them in all of the record history of csm units. Only guy that used a heavy bolter is probably someone that bought a boxset and didn't have enough money to get a different weapon
Yeah, because the Autocannon invalidated its existence, not the Chaincannon.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.
You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?
You have to balance survivability and output. The HB sqd is 110pts (just saying bolter on sg) and will kick out 12 shots a turn. The equivalent chaincannon sqd is 150pts but churns out 32 shots per turn. For less than 40% more points you are getting an almost 200% increase in output. How many turns will you get to shoot before being wiped out? 1, 2 maybe? What can a HB sqd realistically kill in those turns, compared to the chaincannon? If they were good, we'd be seeing a lot of HB havoc sqds already, but they're not terribly efficient at killing anything. Now when you make it a Slaanesh havoc sqd, doubling those shots for one turn really improves the output of the chaincannon over the HB.
I'm not saying the chaincannon havoc sqd is fantastic (it will be dead after 1 turn I'd expect), but it will clear out infantry very effectively.
On a mobile platform with T5, and the shear number of shots being put out with an effective range of 30", yeah, people will be taking squads with four of them. Perhaps not three squads, but expect to see at least one squad.
Slayer-Fan123, my problem is I keep forgetting the Autocannon *exists* (loyalist player), so that is part of the reason I see the chaincannons invalidating the Heavy Bolter.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Nobody. Like I said, what invalidates the Heavy Bolter in infantry squads like Havocs is the Autocannon. Why there are complaints about Chaincannons doing it makes absolutely no sense.
Presumably the idea is that if autocannons are so clearly superior to heavy bolters, the way to fix the situation is by improving heavy bolters, not creating another reasons why heavy bolters are pointless.
It's bad game design, but good for GW's bottom line.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.
You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?
I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:
1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.
I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.
Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.
Danny76 wrote: This is just a CSM tactics thread now right?
I do keep popping in to check but I don’t know what I’m expecting to see as I think that’s it for releases..
We'll get the executioner and apostle, presumably announced on Sunday. Possibly with a short article sometime next week for one or both. But that should wrap up the Chaos Marine release.
The most interesting question right now is whether next week's pre-order's will be as boring as this week's with only those two characters, or if GW wants to release something alongside them like a battletome or some specialist games stuff.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?
I don't know what those are. And, to be honest, I don't really care. I'll say it again: one point of statistic difference in 40k correspond to a HUUUUGE fluff difference. All the various pattern of lasgun, and oh god there are many, don't result in any stat difference.
I don't know what those are. And, to be honest, I don't really care. I'll say it again: one point of statistic difference in 40k correspond to a HUUUUGE fluff difference. All the various pattern of lasgun, and oh god there are many, don't result in any stat difference.
Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Anyone saying that the Chaincannon invalidates the Heavy Bolter is forgetting that:
1. You get two Heavy Bolters for the same price as one Chaincannon
2. Therefore you're paying for 2 less shots but an extra foot of range
That's somewhat balanced believe it or not. What ACTUALLY invalidates the Heavy Bolter is the Autocannon being an option.
Except price of weapon does not tell the whole story. You can't really bring floating weapons now can you?
Unless you're Aeldari....
Why is the Autocannon an invalidation?
In previous editions, the Autocannon, when available, always had its pros over the Heavy Bolter. For one less shot, you have considerably more strength and an extra foot of range. With the price being the same, you gained a lot more flexibility for throwing out shots that would wound more often, ID T3 models (which did come into play more often than one would expect), and you could still glance a good amount of vehicles. The extra shot of the Heavy Bolter couldn't ever compare.
Now, with the new wounding system, the S7 is a little less important. HOWEVER, the Autocannon gained D2, which is an immediate edge the moment you run into tougher models and FNP equivalents. So basically with the three weapons for this edition. 20 points is either:
24" S5 AP-1 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 AP-1 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 AP-1 Heavy 4 D2
The former and latter clearly have niches to fill because the Heavy Bolter is too middling. However, it is the Autocannon bringing the irrelevance because it is the same price as the Heavy Bolter and always has been.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.
Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.
Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.
I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything. That's mostly because of the D6 system. If -1 to hit was done when shooting on a D8 or D10, the bonus is still effective but not brokenly so. Does that make sense?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.
You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?
I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:
1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.
I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.
Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Were people bringing Havoc units with 4xHBs before the Chaincannon came about?
Don't think people will be bringing havoc units with 4 chaincannons either honestly. With no ablative wounds, it's like paying dark reaper points for nothing like dark reaper output or survivability. The chainreaper cannon is the new hotness for 5-man CSM units though holding a midfield objective with the new bolter beta rule.
You're really not understanding how good the weapon is, huh?
I understand it's a weapon with 30" range (movement included), on a single wound 3+ dude that has to footslog with it. If you play first and bring 2 units, I'll just deploy out of your 30". In my turn, with each one of the armies I own I will:
1. Shoot them with biovores or hive guard if you keep them hidden, with practically anything if I can see them.
2. Fly my sorcerers and DP's up and throw them my mortal wound powers (infernal gaze, tzeentc's firestorm, doombolt, bolt of change). Yup got four of them.
3. Shoot them with SMS if I cannot see them, with anything in my Tau army if I can.
I suspect every army will have a way or two for dealing with them.
Chainreaper havocs are a one trick pony, with all their 1 ablative wound and all. They are 34 points per wound, which is almost dark reaper expensive without having the range, damage potential, tricks or survivability of reapers. I think the meta will survive the chaineraper onslaught rather efortlessly.
Literally all those things apply to Dark Reapers, and that damage potential is of a different preferred target and you know that
Galef wrote: RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.
RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)
And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes
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Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
Galef wrote: RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.
RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)
And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes
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Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?
Wow, looks a lot bigger than in the GW comparison. The Havocs are also satisfyingly chunky with extra armour plates and gorgets. Urge to build all CSM from Havocs rising.
I now realize though that I forgot to finish my preorder. Oops.
It would be nice if they gave Chosen, Terminators, HQs, and maybe even Raptors/Warp Talons T5 too- with only the basic CSM squad being weedier. That would really mark out CSM as different to normal SM when they have some kind of veterancy.
Galef wrote: RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.
RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)
And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes
-
Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?
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Long range shooting while objective camping. EDIT: while moving to objective camp or redeploying. Also forgot that Bolter Discipline is a thing.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?
Except unlike your example where both weapons use identical ammunition, heavy bolters use far stronger ammo and more apt comparison would be XM214 vs Mk 47 Striker. While HH rules might went too far with their S3 rotor cannons, that thing should have never been more than S4. Especially seeing new CSM rotor cannons massively outshine both assault cannons (things that in canon replaced them thanks to being flat out better) and redemptor onslaught cannons (funny how a dude can somehow fire more stronger and more accurate shots than massive war machine from much bigger gun that Havoc would never even lift)...
It's almost like people complaining about T5 before even seeing the models firsthand (and ignoring all cues hinting at being more machine than man) were begging to be wrong. Go figure
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The rotor cannon should be approximately the same power level as a heavy bolter (same size, same faction so same technological level, etc) and it LARGELY outperform TWO heavy bolters.
...Kind of like how a GAU-19 puts out more gunfire than an M2?
Except unlike your example where both weapons use identical ammunition, heavy bolters use far stronger ammo and more apt comparison would be XM214 vs Mk 47 Striker. While HH rules might went too far with their S3 rotor cannons, that thing should have never been more than S4. Especially seeing new CSM rotor cannons massively outshine both assault cannons (things that in canon replaced them thanks to being flat out better) and redemptor onslaught cannons (funny how a dude can somehow fire more stronger and more accurate shots than massive war machine from much bigger gun that Havoc would never even lift)...
It's almost like people complaining about T5 before even seeing the models firsthand (and ignoring all cues hinting at being more machine than man) were begging to be wrong. Go figure
Never complained about the t5, was more confused due to not seeing them in comparison to your average marine.
That said not helpfull for hiding the havocs their little size increase.
I've assembled an autocannon guy and that one doesn't look quite as big (it is bigger, though. And then there's the cannon xd). Then again, the legs are so open that they almost don't fit inside the 40mm, so there's that.
Oh, I was not expecting the Havocs to be that big. It is even weirder that they don't have two wounds then. Why are the Primaris Marines T4, W2 and the Havocs which are Marines of similar stature T5, W1?
Crimson wrote: Oh, I was not expecting the Havocs to be that big. It is even weirder that they don't have two wounds then. Why are the Primaris Marines T4, W2 and the Havocs which are Marines of similar stature T5, W1?
Well, then they couldn't fit in their rhinos, now could they?
I like the model in the right with the gorget. It's sort of a chaos take on mk8 armor. The autocannon would distinguish it even more exclusively as chaos but they unfortunately gave a version of it to those ridiculous flying primaris.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything.
I was not complaining about this. My problem is that the rotor canon profile is so much better than the heavy bolter profile, and only that. I was mentioning that “One point of stat difference is a big deal in term of fluff only as something that means this problem is even worse than what could initially be thought.
The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?
Rolsheen wrote: The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?
Rolsheen wrote: The only thing I don't like about spider lord (Lord Discordant) is the head on the beast, does anyone know if a Maulerfiend or Heldrake head would fit?
Galef wrote: RF3 HBs are the answer. It will set them apart from both Autocannons and Chaincannons without being better than either.
RF3 HBs would be the ideal choice for cheapish Havoc units that want to sit back in cover and mow down hordes. The Autocannon does not have the shots for this and the Chaincannon does not have the Range. Yet both would still have purpose over the HB if you are looking for higher damage or willing to spend a bit more, get closer and absolutely mulch hordes at the risk of being a bit more vulnerable (because you are closer/more expensive)
And that's just taking about Havocs. Troop CSMs, Tacticals and Devs would absolutely want RF3 HBs.
And it would be SOOOOO easy for this change to happen. Bolter Discipline can be updated in the next FAQ to treat HBs as RF3 for Astartes
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Well I would want RF 3 weapons because of the Black Legion trait that makes them into Assault 3. I don't know if everybody else wants to deal with that though.
If HBs become RF3, Black Legion then making them Assault 3 is a straight nerf. RF3 give you 6 shots at half range (or stationary using Bolter Discipline. Why would you WANT them to be Assault 3?
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Long range shooting while objective camping. EDIT: while moving to objective camp or redeploying. Also forgot that Bolter Discipline is a thing.
The Assault 3 would only apply when advancing, wouldn't it? Black Legion would suddenly get a 'heavy' weapon that they could fire when advancing. Doesn't sound like much of a nerf to me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Your complaint seems to mainly do with the limits of using a D6 system.
Not at all and I got no idea where you got that conclusion. The chain cannon could work with 8 shots but only S3. It could even work at S4. Just not at S5 AP-1 ON TOP of 8 shots.
That way you get one weapon that hits harder and another that shoots more, each one has its advantages over the other. Not one weapon being an incredibly inferior version of the other.
I got that conclusion because of you complaining about how a single point of difference in stats can totally change everything. That's mostly because of the D6 system. If -1 to hit was done when shooting on a D8 or D10, the bonus is still effective but not brokenly so. Does that make sense?
no
hit on 4+ and -1 is 5+ or changing to D8 and hit of 5+ is turned into a 6+ is just a minor difference in overall statistics
A D8 or D10 adds more possibility, but if a rule system doesn't even use the range a D6 provides and everything is too similar so that some options are clear better than others, changing the dice won't do anything
Raichase wrote: 40mm bases for havocs makes it difficult to use those models to represent alternate heavy weapons in regular CSM squads, which is a shame!
If you play in a regulated environment then yeah, that can happen. If you just play as GW intends, the difference in base size doesn't matter.
Just look at Skitarii. Two out of three special weapon guys fit on a 25mm, but there's a humongous oval base in the box for the third guy who's lugging around and equally humongous anti-materiel rifle. And yet, no problems whatsoever having that in the same squad.
The Assault 3 would only apply when advancing, wouldn't it? Black Legion would suddenly get a 'heavy' weapon that they could fire when advancing. Doesn't sound like much of a nerf to me.
It would. That is the advantage Black Legion would have with their Trait. It would allow them to advance to cover a lot of ground getting 3 more S5 AP -1 shots in the process. I could see using this to rush toward objectives early game as well as make use of it quickly move to another part of the table and still provide some threat given it gives Heavy Bolters a potential range of 43-48". Sure there is the -1 but that is really good range for an infantry weapon.
What I did forget about was Bolter Discipline which reward marines for standing still. I haven't played 40k since this beta rule and it doesn't exist in Kill Team. Galef is right in that it does often offer a much bigger advantage to stay put and still double the fire power regardless of range. Which is more useful in most cases. I am not saying that RF 3 Heavy Bolters would suddenly make the Black Legion awesome. Just that as a player that already made use of Heavy Bolters in their Black Legion army, I could see me taking advantage of the change since I already tend to play a highly mobile, if still footslogging, army. There is an argument to made that Galef's suggestion could actual make the Black Legion trait less bad and more inline with many of subfaction traits.
Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.
No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.
Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.
No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.
You only get 8 shoulder pads, so you need to field either 2 rocket launchers or Lascannons, since they are included on the weapon, positively you get 11 pads pairs in a csm box.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle
Maybe they've been doing a production lull to prepare for something big? Rather than produce the chaos release 100% of the time frame, they shifted to a X%/Y% split so the next release will have enough stock.
Or just produced a lot more restocks in general... they certainly need that as well
fraser1191 wrote: I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle
why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more
Some people are never satisfied.
This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.
yeah I mean don't get me wrong, I've got a short list of stuff I'd like to see in addition too. new posessed, an obliterator kit, a venom crawler kit, a fancy new chaos lord, new bikes, new noise marines and bezerkers, but at the same time? I'd say I'm pretty happy with this release. the CORE of CSMs has been revitalized.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle
why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more
Some people are never satisfied.
This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.
yeah I mean don't get me wrong, I've got a short list of stuff I'd like to see in addition too. new posessed, an obliterator kit, a venom crawler kit, a fancy new chaos lord, new bikes, new noise marines and bezerkers, but at the same time? I'd say I'm pretty happy with this release. the CORE of CSMs has been revitalized.
I have been very content with the Chaos release. I all I really wanted was Abbadon, new CSMs and Havocs. Everything else has been gravy. If there was even more that's great, but it would have to wait anyways as I generally don't like having huge piles of stuff to build and paint. I certainly hope more factions (thinking of all that Eldar finecast) get a massive update in the future.
What i think is silly are the fact that raptors and warp talons are hoping around with talons that do nothing for them, meanwhile my normal CSM squads could be running and gunning
Or that Havocs have bigger better armor then normal power armored character models, if anything just the modeling difference is kind of odd.
BTW I did notice that the new terminators have an entirely different inner diameters on their shoulder pad then the old ones. Meaning you can't use old pads on the new models, so good luck hunting down extras I wonder if FW terminator pads will even work.
What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?
There isn't. It's absurd.
I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.
I can't stand inconsistency.
Lol. You're going to gimp yourself?
Why though, havocs are the most insane and probably one of the most effecitve chaos units, if they kill in the name of the gods they will get rewarded, if that means they get roided and becaome bigger to increase mobility for their HW's the chaos gods will make it so.
What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?
There isn't. It's absurd.
I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.
I can't stand inconsistency.
Maybe it's just me, but it feels like T5 Havok being problem is weird considering any CSM unit could be bumped up to T5 via the Mark of Nurgle before 8th.
fraser1191 wrote: I'm gonna be a little salty if all GW releases next week is the Executioner and dark Apostle
why? it's what we're expecting. I for one am going to be pleasently suprised if we get more
Some people are never satisfied.
This is a full resculpt of much of the range with a few surprise new units and people are expecting more? Righto.
I'm more Than satisfied since I don't play csm. It's just this release has been dragging on. These last 2 easily could have been in the same release cycle as the lord discordant. Between leaks and announcements for almost 2 months it's become... less exciting
What's the justification for Havocs being bigger and tougher than regular CSM exactly? Is the Chaos range the most ridiculously out of scale line now?
There isn't. It's absurd.
I'll be mounting mine on regular sized bases and playing them as toughness 4. They have no business being bigger or tougher.
I can't stand inconsistency.
Maybe it's just me, but it feels like T5 Havok being problem is weird considering any CSM unit could be bumped up to T5 via the Mark of Nurgle before 8th.
Not really, the equivalent here would thus make them T6 and the rest T5, they're not different than any other joe schmoe in power armour so should be the same.
Had they buffed all the other marines to T5 nobody would bat an eye.
It seems like GW is going down the "on their way to becoming Obliterators" route with Havocs. That would suit the larger models and T5.
It actually is kind of neat if every branch away from standard CSM shows the progression towards daemonhood for that particular poison. We have Havocs looking like mini Obliterators now, and Raptors moving towards Warp Talons.
It does sort of leave Chosen and Terminators in a bit of a flavourless rut though.
I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.
And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.
One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.
Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.
Stabilizers is a stretch though. They have metal toe nails for feths sake I don't mind them having the rule, personally i think all marines should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, but that justification cracks me up.
Nurglitch wrote: I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.
Red Corsair wrote: Stabilizers is a stretch though. They have metal toe nails for feths sake I don't mind them having the rule, personally i think all marines should ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, but that justification cracks me up.
No arguments from me on that lol. never mind that the actual model has claws that are level with bottom of their boot so they wouldn't even work lol
Nurglitch wrote: I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.
That's just how it's always been with Chaos. Once you start down that path, it's either daemonhood or a terrible death. And the odds are NOT in favor of daemonhood.
Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.
And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.
One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.
Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.
So you admit it wasn't actually part of the Berserker Marine profile.
Berzerkers are S5 despite looking just as scraggy as any regular marine.
And Chaplain Cassius is T6 due to bionics; noone seems to mind.
One is a character, the other is a specialized unit. Anything goes with those.
Berzerkers had S5 for a while but it wasn't via their profile, they got it through furious charge.
At least it could make sense here in that these are all roided out due to khorne and/or focused on martial ability, aka they hit the gym more than your average marine.
Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.
So you admit it wasn't actually part of the Berserker Marine profile.
Also how aren't Havocs a specialized unit?
Maybe not the best words to use but they're like not any of the cult units.They're just dudes carrying big guns. They're no different than a normal csm taking an autocannon. At least not statwise.
Devastators aren't any different from regular marines either, bar some more specialized gear. These get the claws to differentiate, but there's not really any explanation that would give them extra thoughness.
Unless heavy weapons give an extra toughness like bikes do this edition. Randomly getting an extra toughness is just weird
And yea, berzerkers shouldn't have the extra strength built into the profile either, but with those there are lore reasons (not a particularly compelling one but hey) and they have an extra strength like bikers have an extra toughness.
They skipped a step and instead of making a separate rule, they rolled it into their profile. Plus they are elite veterans and thus further on their path to damnation
Nurglitch wrote: I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
I really like this idea. So, instead of just Characters every single Heretic Astartes is on a path towards either Daemonhood or Spawndom.
That's just how it's always been with Chaos. Once you start down that path, it's either daemonhood or a terrible death. And the odds are NOT in favor of daemonhood.
Given that chaos worshippers are usually all about freedom and personal power, enslaving themselves eternally to an alien intellect seems like it would count as an agonising death too. Just, you know, extended indefinitely.
Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?
Ardias wrote: Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?
Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.
No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Option for the Aspiring Champion
Havoc A can be Reaper Chaincannon, Heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc B makes heavy bolter or autocannon.
Havoc C makes Lascannon or missile launcher
Havoc D makes Lascannon or missile launcher.
No idea if you can fit the bits to make, say, a 2 Lascannon and 2 Missile launcher squad. I am about to have a play around so will report back.
Feared that would be the case.
So long you have shoulder pads left you actually can build nearly all weapons easily but guess which is bound to a specific arm backpack and backpack addition.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,
Or ask their IG playing friend for some autocannon barrels to chop and refit in the heavy bolters for the havocs.
Ardias wrote: Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?
This isn’t remotely any kind of confirmation. If anything the exact opposite. And conversion articles on how to make plastic Berzerkers from the new Chaos Marine kit doesn’t scream “new kit on the way”.
Doesn’t look like these legions will be getting anything in the near future to me.
Ardias wrote: Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?
Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.
Yes, but TS used the normal csm transfer sheets, that seems to have been discontinued, whereas DG probably had their own sheet. So that might also hint at such EC and WE Releases in the near future.
BrianDavion wrote: in fairness most people are likely going to buy 2 packs and make 1 las canon and 1 autocanon squad.,
You can assemble all weapons/arms combinations without too much trouble (I've done just that), but there's one less backpack part than you'd need to build them all, so you need to do some work for that one, or cut the cabling that goes to the backpack and use a regular one.
That said, the havoc weapons feel a smidge oversized on regular marines. Not a lot, just a smidge.
Ardias wrote: Did someone else notice that the transfer sheets of the new csm kits do neither feature EC nor WE, thus stealth-confirming new kits for those legions (and maybe new codexes) some time in the near future?
Yes and bizarrely there is decals for Thousand Sons.
Yes, but TS used the normal csm transfer sheets, that seems to have been discontinued, whereas DG probably had their own sheet. So that might also hint at such EC and WE Releases in the near future.
Actually Death Guard has no own decal sheet. Most of their units have so much sculpted detail on them that there really isn't any place to place decals to begin with.
Roknar wrote:
Havocs are the same as any other regular marine, it would have made more sense to improve their BS. The run and shoot is explained via stabilizers at least.
obliterators are also T5 and like three times the size, so being on their way to oblits also makes no sense, apart from not making sense fluffwise either depending on which fluff you go by.
It's not armour either as out termies also only have T4. If they wanted to go that way then at least give them " wounds like the termies or vice versa.
I think increased wounds would've worled better for what GW seems to be trying to represent with the new Havocs, but modern GW has shown they are quite happy to use increased T as a way to represent superior armour already this edition- look at Gravis Marines. They have a 3+ Sv but T5 to represent the effects of the armour.
Anyway, Obliterators are much larger than Havocs, but I meant that Havoks must be accumulating boons that move them towards an Obliterator as the endpoint once they ascend to daemonhood. This suits the MO of Havocs as obsessed with guns. Once they have attracted the attention of the Dark Gods, they will either ascend through possession (like the first Obliterator) or seek out the virus or something.
Plus, the new Havocs are noticeably bigger than Marines (see below) so it becomes plausible that they are aiming for this as an endgoal. Havocs are no longer "normal" Marines, but Marines who have already acquired Chaos rewards.
Albertorius wrote:...so I must admit, I wasn't expecting havocs to be quite this big:
The 40mm bases were a surprise, too.
For comparison, here is the original Obliterator models on 40mm bases...
It still doesn't make sense. If they want veterans that are closer to some ascension of sorts to be T5, then they missed the opportunity to improve the other HQs and elites and the master of possesion.
Their armour isn't really that different either, and then termies should be T5. Why only the havocs? Even when playing the oblit card, they're still way closer to a normal marine than a an actual oblit.
Nurglitch wrote: I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
I...really like this train of thought.
Given enough time in the immaterium, every Chaos Marine will eventually either warp into a twisted daemonic version/mirror of it's former self, become a Chaos Spawn or simply die.
Havoc's are more or less CSM who love heavy weapons a little bit too much, and are half-way on their path to "Obliteratordom"
I have enough heavy weapon marines to run "Havocs" regardless...not sure I'll bother. Personally, I really dislike the hand-wavium style of fixing them...but at the same time there was ZERO point in running them previously, so at least they have some special rules to justify them.
Still think they're just painting a bigger target on their backs...we'll see!
Eldarain wrote: Sneaky move on GW's part to put an end to the annoying player tendency to use the same Heavy weapon minis in elites/troops/heavy units
Ha! Jokes on GW.
I'll keep using my regular CSM /w Heavy Weapons as Havoc's, despite them having the wrong base.
Granted, this might not fly in a tournament but then I on average attend one tourney every 5 years so I'll probably be fine...
Haighus wrote: It seems like GW is going down the "on their way to becoming Obliterators" route with Havocs. That would suit the larger models and T5.
I liked it better when obliterators were less “big terminators” and more “Oh no I caught the Tetsuo virus… IN SPACE” brand of body horror.
“Oh no I'm an imperial guard/citizen but my body is turning into metal and I cannot really control it anymore! Now I'm desperate and the imperium will shoot on sight so I join chaos ” versus “I am a space marines and I like shooting weapons so much… that my power armor magically transform into a a terminator armor, just a bit bigger though”.
They are. Just not specialized in tanking, that would be the plague marine. The Havocs are specialized in shooting big noisy smelly guns. T5 isn't related to shooting big noisy smelly guns.
Nurglitch wrote: I figured it was Terminators into Mutilators and Havocs into Obliterators, Raptors into Warp Talons, with CSM and Chosen into Possessed and Greater Possessed.
I...really like this train of thought.
Given enough time in the immaterium, every Chaos Marine will eventually either warp into a twisted daemonic version/mirror of it's former self, become a Chaos Spawn or simply die.
Havoc's are more or less CSM who love heavy weapons a little bit too much, and are half-way on their path to "Obliteratordom"
Kinda like how this goes, but I still want to know where the Daemon Princes come from by this logic.
I know about the Chaos Boon strategem + the lore, but what if one CSM(or even a renegade) was so good that he skipped a couple of steps(I.E. single handedly wiped out a Craftworld or successfully got the commoners of a Forge World to turn against the Emperor)?
Eldarain wrote: Sneaky move on GW's part to put an end to the annoying player tendency to use the same Heavy weapon minis in elites/troops/heavy units
One that won't work, since they do mixed base size units in several places already (GSCs, for example) and are generally increasingly random about which base size they assign.
Bases don't matter.
Kinda like how this goes, but I still want to know where the Daemon Princes come from by this logic.
If a mortal Individuum proved himself well enough the god he serves will be raised by him to Daemon Prince, which is a mix of Mortal and Greater Daemon. Not fully mortal any more but also not completely warp identity either
For Obliterators the fluff changed a lot over time, from Chaos Robots over ChaosTechpriests to mutating Havocs.
It is used whatever fits best the current rules
Has anyone got a / seen size comparison of the new Terminators compared to the old plastic kit? I can't tell how well the old & new kits would look alongside each other. Thanks
Haighus wrote: It seems like GW is going down the "on their way to becoming Obliterators" route with Havocs. That would suit the larger models and T5.
I liked it better when obliterators were less “big terminators” and more “Oh no I caught the Tetsuo virus… IN SPACE” brand of body horror.
“Oh no I'm an imperial guard/citizen but my body is turning into metal and I cannot really control it anymore! Now I'm desperate and the imperium will shoot on sight so I join chaos ” versus “I am a space marines and I like shooting weapons so much… that my power armor magically transform into a a terminator armor, just a bit bigger though”.
They are. Just not specialized in tanking, that would be the plague marine. The Havocs are specialized in shooting big noisy smelly guns. T5 isn't related to shooting big noisy smelly guns.
Well I guess it's a good thing that Plague Marines are more durable then. So no problem.
Sotahullu wrote: Okay, so why the chaos lord from BSF is getting tagged on?
From the looks of it BSF seems to have been designed as the first release in the new Chaos range, with Mallax being the new Chaos Marine Lord model. Which is a bit strange as he doesn't have anything in the way of options. The game was essentially an advert for the new range, containing enough models for a small 40K force.
But Mallax is contained on his own, separate sprue making him an easy addition for the new Chaos release schedule.
Mallax was also shown off in the new codex, albeit as a nameless chaos champion with thunder hammer.
For those that like the model, it'll be a nice way to get him without having to pay ebay scalper price. I'm just not too fond of him. He's got the "wot" grandma face, and too many flesh wires all over him. His backpack looks like it'd be a nightmare to paint.
GaroRobe wrote: Mallax was also shown off in the new codex, albeit as a nameless chaos champion with thunder hammer.
For those that like the model, it'll be a nice way to get him without having to pay ebay scalper price. I'm just not too fond of him. He's got the "wot" grandma face, and too many flesh wires all over him. His backpack looks like it'd be a nightmare to paint.
granted if your biggest issue with him is his head that'd be easy eneugh to address yeah?
GaroRobe wrote: Mallax was also shown off in the new codex, albeit as a nameless chaos champion with thunder hammer.
For those that like the model, it'll be a nice way to get him without having to pay ebay scalper price. I'm just not too fond of him. He's got the "wot" grandma face, and too many flesh wires all over him. His backpack looks like it'd be a nightmare to paint.
granted if your biggest issue with him is his head that'd be easy eneugh to address yeah?
Nope. I'm all for conversions, but his head looks too difficult to easily snip away at.
And you can see from this angle what I'm talking about in reference to the wires. That backpack is 90% wires. Maybe if someone painted it in another legion color scheme, I'd like it better.
Feel free to post any conversions that you can find of him.
Looking at the 360 spin, it doesn't seem worth the effort. His chest wire connects directly into his head, so you'd need to fix that with greenstuff. Then you'd have to cut away at some of his fur cape, file down the helmet's neck joint, and see if it'd fit. I'm not saying it's impossible. I don't think it's worth the effort.
Would I like him better with the right helmet? Probably. Is it worth buying the model for? Not in my humble opinion.
GaroRobe wrote: Mallax was also shown off in the new codex, albeit as a nameless chaos champion with thunder hammer.
For those that like the model, it'll be a nice way to get him without having to pay ebay scalper price. I'm just not too fond of him. He's got the "wot" grandma face, and too many flesh wires all over him. His backpack looks like it'd be a nightmare to paint.
granted if your biggest issue with him is his head that'd be easy eneugh to address yeah?
Nope. I'm all for conversions, but his head looks too difficult to easily snip away at.
And you can see from this angle what I'm talking about in reference to the wires. That backpack is 90% wires. Maybe if someone painted it in another legion color scheme, I'd like it better.
Yea I want to like him but he's basically a tentacle in armour. I'm not sure I will get him.
I'll skip him for a while, I never bought dinobots and don't really like them. But I *would* have bought a Dark Apostle.
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