Well if we base it off of Stormcast chambers for the lolz, their first proper chamber release was also called the Vanguard Chamber. So possibly a Librarian force of Primaris next year?
#confirmed
I could see the Gravis armored troops being the equivalent of a 1st company in a non-Primaris marine chapter. Basically imagine the Deathwing, but as Primaris in Gravis armor variants.
Tiberius501 wrote: Well if we base it off of Stormcast chambers for the lolz, their first proper chamber release was also called the Vanguard Chamber. So possibly a Librarian force of Primaris next year?
#confirmed
It’s also the name of a type of detachment in the core book so maybe any future Primaris releases will be under the heading of “ outrider” or “spearhead”?
JohnnyHell wrote: I mean, they told you exactly how long you’d have to wait and are releasing more than expected, with more regular updates. Not sure how that compares to Orktober other than similar wishes to “skip to the end” and get the releases!
The issue here (for me) is simply letting us know the release date, so I know when to have how much $ put aside (and how much I can safely spend in my fortnightly pay periods before then)
bullyboy wrote: It was specifically stated at LVO that these guys all use the Reiver armour, including the Librarian. They are supposed to be an infiltration unit so I expect all new units, rules, and psychic powers.
Does this mean there's gonna be a wave of marines in all gravis armour at some point?
Eh, maybe. I don't know how you would do Gravis Troops (these added Chambers of Primaris seam to be covering all of the FO slots).
I don't think GW are going to themselves to just the three existing MK-X types. So far the majority of the Vanguard do seem to use a version of the Phobos armour. But we have already seen one exception to this. The drop devastators look to have a new varient that has elements from both the Tacticus and Inceptor Gravis styles.
If there is a wave heavily based around the Gravis, then we could again see something new that fits the "theme" to go alongside them.
Latro_ wrote: my money is on a viglius 2 book, heavy on chaos 8th ed formations and a couple of data slates
It will likely have formations for Primaris Vanguard as well. There will be bitching about MOAR MUHREENS! like usual too.
Twice the bitching, because Marines and Spiky Marines and not enough Xenos.
One thing to point out, the first Vigilus book focuses on the first half of the war, namely the War of the Beasts as the Imperium tries to deal with the invading Orks and Genestealer Cultists who had been prematurely triggered into an uprising by the arrival of said Orks. Chaos didn't show up in force until the end of that one, setting the stage for the second book.
Latro_ wrote: my money is on a viglius 2 book, heavy on chaos 8th ed formations and a couple of data slates
It will likely have formations for Primaris Vanguard as well. There will be bitching about MOAR MUHREENS! like usual too.
Twice the bitching, because Marines and Spiky Marines and not enough Xenos.
One thing to point out, the first Vigilus book focuses on the first half of the war, namely the War of the Beasts as the Imperium tries to deal with the invading Orks and Genestealer Cultists who had been prematurely triggered into an uprising by the arrival of said Orks. Chaos didn't show up in force until the end of that one, setting the stage for the second book.
yeah Book 2 will likely involve the chaos invasion and feature rules for vanguard forces. my guess is we'll get a Vanguard speciality detachment, a detachment for a few specal chapters, A raven guard one based around a mix of vanguard and standard primaris for example. a CSM detachment, a Black legion specific one (likely based around Abaddon) a CSM one, one for 1k sons, one for death guard, etc. and maybe one for some other forces on world, such as custodes or something.
I expect the primaris sniper dudes will literally be revier stats with a 36" s4 -1 rapid fire 1 with the sniper rule and MW on 6 gun which will likely have the word bolter in it like 'assassin bolt rifle' so you'll rapid fire it if you dont move quite far
camo cloaks like scouts and infiltrate like scouts.
expect the libby will be a normal libby with one special rule that will let himself and one unit redeploy at the start of the game, maybe a -1 to hit aura... something like that
I like how people speculate termie trophy rack is Abby when I put picture that matches it nearly 100% here 50 pages ago...
Note also far left guy, owner of the chainaxe possibly?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, new DE pic (didn't we already saw this one tho?):
YOU KNOW, MORTALS, WHEN A WARPSMITH BOUND ME TO THE RUMOUR ENGINE IN A VILE FUSION OF DAEMON AND MACHINE, I INITIALLY WASN’T SUPER JAZZED ABOUT THE IDEA, BUT THIS HAS ACTUALLY BEEN PRETTY COOL. LIKE, CHECK THIS OUT.
Spoiler:
CAN YOU GUESS WHAT IT IS? I KNOW, BUT THE HEXAGRAMMIC WARDS PREVENT ME FROM TELLING YOU… FOR NOW!
JohnnyHell wrote: I mean, they told you exactly how long you’d have to wait and are releasing more than expected, with more regular updates. Not sure how that compares to Orktober other than similar wishes to “skip to the end” and get the releases!
The issue here (for me) is simply letting us know the release date, so I know when to have how much $ put aside (and how much I can safely spend in my fortnightly pay periods before then)
They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
streetsamurai wrote: Have the bad feeling that the new terminators will turned out to only be a single character in termi armour
People expecting things like a whole new terminator kit are setting themselves up for disappointment.
I'm not saying it won't happen, but what I am saying is we know that these teasers revolve around a boxed set, and we have no reason to believe rather than hope that Chaos will be receiving entirely new or revamped, stand-alone kits alongside this release. We don't even know that Abaddon will be available separately (right away, that is; no doubt he would receive the Eldrad treatment if he's part of the boxed game).
All this talk of brand-new terminators and everything else has been people hyping themselves up with wishlist items. It will be really cool if Chaos gets a proper revamp to some outdated kits but we have no reason to expect this.
streetsamurai wrote: Have the bad feeling that the new terminators will turned out to only be a single character in termi armour
People expecting things like a whole new terminator kit are setting themselves up for disappointment.
I'm not saying it won't happen, but what I am saying is we know that these teasers revolve around a boxed set, and we have no reason to believe rather than hope that Chaos will be receiving entirely new or revamped, stand-alone kits alongside this release. We don't even know that Abaddon will be available separately (right away, that is; no doubt he would receive the Eldrad treatment if he's part of the boxed game).
If Abaddon were part of Shadowspear, they would have shown him in the cover art/poster that will be included in the box. That we have seen already.
Because that's what they frigging do with these boxed sets.
All this talk of brand-new terminators and everything else has been people hyping themselves up with wishlist items. It will be really cool if Chaos gets a proper revamp to some outdated kits but we have no reason to expect this.
Actually at this point, for us to be seeing things still associated with Shadowspear? It would have to be something akin to a new Dark Imperium set NOT a battlebox like they've said it is. Or the box will have to be around $250 a pop instead of the normal $160.
The last two CSM release (TS, DG) have had three new terminator units between them. DG also had an ETB set and two lords. We're getting a new terminator unit and maybe a bodyguard kit for Abaddon similar to Deathshroud.
Why wouldn't there be a new terminator kit? We've seen one terminator model with a two handed mace in the artwork (who very well could be a character), as well as back spikes, power fist, and possible gun from the daemon rumor engine. That makes it seem like more than one terminator is coming. If it was just a single character, he wouldn't have all these options. Unless they release a new version of the multi part Terminator lord (which would be nice, tbh)
Its like people theorizing the possessed may just be a single character instead of a unit.
Its like people theorizing the possessed may just be a single character instead of a unit.
yea! read the above story
There are two possessed pictured behind the MoP in the first video.
Yeah, I agree. It lends more credence to them being Characters/Retinue for the Master of Possesion, rather than a new Possessed kit.
I kind wonder even more now if all the rumour engine photos are of his Retinue and not actually replacement kits for Termies/possessed, etc
Tiberius501 wrote: Well if we base it off of Stormcast chambers for the lolz, their first proper chamber release was also called the Vanguard Chamber. So possibly a Librarian force of Primaris next year?
#confirmed
The Librarian Chamber of Space Marines is called "Grey Knights". I'm sure they'll get Primaris-scale models eventually, but probably not for a few years.
Latro_ wrote: I expect the primaris sniper dudes will literally be revier stats with a 36" s4 -1 rapid fire 1 with the sniper rule and MW on 6 gun which will likely have the word bolter in it like 'assassin bolt rifle' so you'll rapid fire it if you dont move quite far
camo cloaks like scouts and infiltrate like scouts.
expect the libby will be a normal libby with one special rule that will let himself and one unit redeploy at the start of the game, maybe a -1 to hit aura... something like that
I can tell you right now that the snipers will have special ammo (was mentioned at LVO) including the ability to shoot round corners (as the one GW staffer stated). Unless he was trolling, these won't be your stock sniper rifle dudes.
Latro_ wrote: I expect the primaris sniper dudes will literally be revier stats with a 36" s4 -1 rapid fire 1 with the sniper rule and MW on 6 gun which will likely have the word bolter in it like 'assassin bolt rifle' so you'll rapid fire it if you dont move quite far
camo cloaks like scouts and infiltrate like scouts.
expect the libby will be a normal libby with one special rule that will let himself and one unit redeploy at the start of the game, maybe a -1 to hit aura... something like that
I can tell you right now that the snipers will have special ammo (was mentioned at LVO) including the ability to shoot round corners (as the one GW staffer stated). Unless he was trolling, these won't be your stock sniper rifle dudes.
Which certainly jives with them not being Troops (just my speculation) as GW has been clever enough so far to not completely replace/make redudant any OldMarine units. If Elimiators are Troops, Sniper Scouts are 100% redundant, which GW has not yet done with any Primaris unit.
Even Tactical Marines offer special/combi-weapon options over Intercessors.
Sniper scouts will be an awful lot cheaper than eliminators, I'd assume. Eliminators are going to be tougher and have better guns.
That said, I'd be amazed if they were troops. The guys in not-reiver armour might be troops but I'd assume the snipers and autocannon guys would be something else. I'm just not sure what, and I hope they aren't yet more elites.
I expect the snipers to be elites, but there to be a heavy support unit too. I can't imagine there being a Troop unit with access to a heavy weapon as this would practically eliminate Intercessors as a choice. And as we've seen from the artwork there is at least 2 hvy weapon options, the autocannon type and gatling weapon.
If the terminator model was only the guy in the picture wielding the two-handed censer mace weapon, then why the picture of the power fist?
Perhaps a new character/lord/whatever kit with the option for multiple loadouts? Can only speculate, but it doesn't seem particularly ornate for a one-off character's armament.
I’ve seen that picture of a “Gatling” weapon everyone is talking about. It’s obviously just a bolt rifle, isn’t it? There’s a big blast coming out of it but the gun seems to be identical to the ones the other guys gave.
Otherwise yes I agree it would be a surprise to see a heavy weapon in a troop choice. We’ve seen an image with two auto cannon guys and no other squad members around, which suggests that you get units of them on their own.
Kanluwen wrote: I'd expect the autocannon guys to be Heavy Support and Eliminators as Elites, while the others would be Troops.
That is what I'd expect too. Although at first, I did think the Snipers would be Troops, until I realize how redundant it would make Scouts
I kinda hope the none of the new units are Elites though. Eliminators mgith fit well in either Fast/Heavy depending on their method of deployment/weapon loadout. Same goes for the heavy weapon "jump devs" Could be Fast or Heavy. Primaris already has 3 Elite options, but only 1 Fast/Heavy currently
I count five elite choices (including the ancient and apothecary), one fast and one heavy.
It's interesting (to me, maybe nobody else!) that we keep getting Primaris infantry and apparently no vehicles. It seems to me that the line could really use some thing like a Predator-equivalent and maybe a land speeder. A flyer would also be good.
Primaris chapters can't only use repulsors for all their vehicular needs. How do they get down to the planet?
Super easy, barely an inconvenience, if the lore is anything to go by, They just jump out of the ship in orbit and fall miles to the ground and make a super-hero landing.
The standard Vanguard Primaris have battleline markings just as Intercessors. Exterminators and the autocannon dudes have markings for fire support.
AFAIK there are no Marines with battleline symbol that are not troops.
Crimson_ wrote: The standard Vanguard Primaris have battleline markings just as Intercessors. Exterminators and the autocannon dudes have markings for fire support.
AFAIK there are no Marines with battleline symbol that are not troops.
Cool. However, Reivers have the fast attack symbol and Aggressors have the heavy support one. Both are elites.
Not saying that the vanguard guys aren't troops (and I hope that they are) only that whatever's painted on them doesn't give us much to go on. It's not an immutable thing for GW.
Crimson_ wrote: The standard Vanguard Primaris have battleline markings just as Intercessors. Exterminators and the autocannon dudes have markings for fire support.
AFAIK there are no Marines with battleline symbol that are not troops.
Cool. However, Reivers have the fast attack symbol and Aggressors have the heavy support one. Both are elites.
Not saying that the vanguard guys aren't troops (and I hope that they are) only that whatever's painted on them doesn't give us much to go on. It's not an immutable thing for GW.
Let's get some terminology correct here.
Reivers and Inceptors both have the "Close Support" Squad markings. The role per the fluff is "the designated troops must be fast, aggressive, and hard-hitting". It's a bit of a laugh about them with regards to Reivers certainly, but the role is pretty clearly defined. It doesn't say they're Elites or Fast Attacks or whatever.
Hellblasters and Aggressors are both classed as "Fire Support" Squads and have that marking--again they don't have a specific slot.
Was anyone really surprised though that the pseudo-Terminator unit ended up in Elites while the pseudo-Devastator unit ended up in HS? That the kinda/sorta Assault Squad was in FA and the kinda/sorta Company Veterans ended up in Elites?
I don't think they're much like company vets, nor do I think they really belong in Elites when they're not very, and they've mostly got movement and assault things going for them.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If the terminator model was only the guy in the picture wielding the two-handed censer mace weapon, then why the picture of the power fist?
Perhaps a new character/lord/whatever kit with the option for multiple loadouts? Can only speculate, but it doesn't seem particularly ornate for a one-off character's armament.
I'm going to guess rather than a new terminator squad kit we're getting a more elite terminator unit. Sorta the undivided alternative to the DG deathshroud.
Yeah I think reivers should be in the fast attack slot. If they are an analogue with anything in the mini-marine range, it’s assault squads.
But really there’s no simple read-across. Aggressors aren’t veterans like terminators are, inceptors aren’t for close combat like assault squads. Primaris guys are just different.
Which means that these new guys are also different. I think it sounds pretty appropriate for sneaky sniper guys to be elites. I don’t know what slot the auto cannon guys should be in, though HS seems likely. It kind of depends how mobile they are.
Reivers are the only unit that feels badly out of place to me. They should clearly be FA. But it’s not really an issue while they are terrible.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: If the terminator model was only the guy in the picture wielding the two-handed censer mace weapon, then why the picture of the power fist?
Perhaps a new character/lord/whatever kit with the option for multiple loadouts? Can only speculate, but it doesn't seem particularly ornate for a one-off character's armament.
I'm going to guess rather than a new terminator squad kit we're getting a more elite terminator unit. Sorta the undivided alternative to the DG deathshroud.
Abaddon saw Calgar with his new honour guard and was like"boys! We can't have the loyalists showing us up! More gold more spikes!"
stormcraft wrote: Soooo.... What kind of rules would a elite terminator unit need in the current game to be viable? 4++? 3-4 wounds per modell?
4++ justaerin (sp?) in cataphractii armor with an extra wound for being extra veteran wouldn't be unbelievable.
Personally, I think that bikes' flexible squad size and ability to not need to buy melee weapons makes the Terminator niche pretty difficult to fill: you pretty much need to want to get them right in melee, or need them to come in at exactly the right spot at probably full health.
The best suggested rule I've seen is reduce incoming damage either by one or half, so plasma etc. doesn't nuke them. The new damage system makes them about right against small arms fire, but unfortunately it's just too easy to spam good AP damage 2 etc. Or, figure out a way of giving them better offense at range, which would both be symptomatic of and reinforce the ranged supremacy that is a lot of this edition.
Mandragola wrote: Sniper scouts will be an awful lot cheaper than eliminators, I'd assume. Eliminators are going to be tougher and have better guns.
That said, I'd be amazed if they were troops. The guys in not-reiver armour might be troops but I'd assume the snipers and autocannon guys would be something else. I'm just not sure what, and I hope they aren't yet more elites.
I'd be amazed if they were troops too on account of having the fire support chevron on their knee pads. Despite there not being a 1 to 1 equivalency for marine battlefield role and force org slot it does kind of follow some basic logic - they aren't battleline, that's for sure.
I'm so glad they are redoing the chaos space marine plastic box, that is getting embarrassing. Obliterators too. I hope all of the rest follow. Devastators(Havoks) /Mutilators etc.
stormcraft wrote: Soooo.... What kind of rules would a elite terminator unit need in the current game to be viable? 4++? 3-4 wounds per modell?
4++ justaerin (sp?) in cataphractii armor with an extra wound for being extra veteran wouldn't be unbelievable.
Personally, I think that bikes' flexible squad size and ability to not need to buy melee weapons makes the Terminator niche pretty difficult to fill: you pretty much need to want to get them right in melee, or need them to come in at exactly the right spot at probably full health.
The best suggested rule I've seen is reduce incoming damage either by one or half, so plasma etc. doesn't nuke them. The new damage system makes them about right against small arms fire, but unfortunately it's just too easy to spam good AP damage 2 etc. Or, figure out a way of giving them better offense at range, which would both be symptomatic of and reinforce the ranged supremacy that is a lot of this edition.
IIRC what makes death shroud so beloved is their ability to interacept weapons fire aimed at chars
stormcraft wrote: Soooo.... What kind of rules would a elite terminator unit need in the current game to be viable? 4++? 3-4 wounds per modell?
4++ justaerin (sp?) in cataphractii armor with an extra wound for being extra veteran wouldn't be unbelievable.
Personally, I think that bikes' flexible squad size and ability to not need to buy melee weapons makes the Terminator niche pretty difficult to fill: you pretty much need to want to get them right in melee, or need them to come in at exactly the right spot at probably full health.
The best suggested rule I've seen is reduce incoming damage either by one or half, so plasma etc. doesn't nuke them. The new damage system makes them about right against small arms fire, but unfortunately it's just too easy to spam good AP damage 2 etc. Or, figure out a way of giving them better offense at range, which would both be symptomatic of and reinforce the ranged supremacy that is a lot of this edition.
2+/4++ would be a good start. Assuming its a new unit, I think the main thing GW will want to think about is how far to take Abaddon's flavor of undivided. In the books he has 4 adviser/generals each committed to a different chaos god. What if these terminators play off that theme in a lesser way, or even just represent the 40k equivalent of the fantasy Varanguard. A 4 model swiss army knife, that notionally benefits from all the chaos gods, without fizzying out into "undivided".
stormcraft wrote: A terminator with +1 inv, 5+++, +1attack on the charge who always fights first? I would take it
The balance to something hypothetical like this could easily be that if you lose the representative of the particular god you lose the respective god's benefit to the whole unit. Or not, its GW, who needs balance when you can say its streamlined.
Its like people theorizing the possessed may just be a single character instead of a unit.
yea! read the above story
There are two possessed pictured behind the MoP in the first video.
Yeah, I agree. It lends more credence to them being Characters/Retinue for the Master of Possesion, rather than a new Possessed kit.
I kind wonder even more now if all the rumour engine photos are of his Retinue and not actually replacement kits for Termies/possessed, etc
-
Yep.
Just like a certain Ultramarines character.
He’s the master of Possession. If ever there were going to be some possessed but not a new kit itself, that’s gonna be it.
JSG, that answers your question earlier on how people can think it isn’t a whole unit.
I mean for sure it could be. As could the Termies.
But everyone’s lists of ‘What We KNOW is Coming’ is getting longer and longer. But the only bits we know for sure are the ones pictured.
So there definitely Could be some disappointment coming for some..
(I personally think Termies are a lot coming, Possessed, I don’t know though..)
GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
I will admit, it is possible that the foot and maw power fist could go with the Possessed marine on the cover of the boxart. The art does show that he'll have a power fist of some sorts.
That doesn't account for the "moon" shaped claw that we've also been teased, plus the two possessed backpacks (I'm assuming the backpack with skull, spine, and spikes doesn't belong to a standard marine). While it's possible one of those backpacks could go with the boxart model, it still leaves the other one up in the air.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
The problem is that none of that fits with the space pirate/raider/reiver theme. CSMs rarely deploy direct from the Warp, so they need some method of deploying direct from their space craft. Currently only Terminators can do that without FW kits.
Any CSM warband is going to heavily prioritise maintaining void-capable drop transports over all else bar their primary warship. Otherwise they are stranded and a sitting duck.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
The problem is that none of that fits with the space pirate/raider/reiver theme. CSMs rarely deploy direct from the Warp, so they need some method of deploying direct from their space craft. Currently only Terminators can do that without FW kits.
Any CSM warband is going to heavily prioritise maintaining void-capable drop transports over all else bar their primary warship. Otherwise they are stranded and a sitting duck.
I agree. Its one of these ideas some of the designers have mentioned while others have eluded to on more than one occasion that just seems so disconnected from the lore. Aren't the Crimson Slaughter drop pod assault specialists? I can think of a couple different novels where the CSM are flying in a drop ship. All things considered, if infrastructure, maintenance, or availability were as big of a problem it wouldn't be the largest transports still flying... it would be the smaller one that are more easily cobbled back together. Meanwhile the collective loyalist marines have gotten plastic kits for 3 different "light" transport flyers.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
The problem is that none of that fits with the space pirate/raider/reiver theme. CSMs rarely deploy direct from the Warp, so they need some method of deploying direct from their space craft. Currently only Terminators can do that without FW kits.
Any CSM warband is going to heavily prioritise maintaining void-capable drop transports over all else bar their primary warship. Otherwise they are stranded and a sitting duck.
This is exactly why Renegades like The Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs need to be handled in the Vanilla codex via switching of keywords. I know I sound like a broken record but it's such a small task to do and GW refuses to understand or get it.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
The problem is that none of that fits with the space pirate/raider/reiver theme. CSMs rarely deploy direct from the Warp, so they need some method of deploying direct from their space craft. Currently only Terminators can do that without FW kits.
Any CSM warband is going to heavily prioritise maintaining void-capable drop transports over all else bar their primary warship. Otherwise they are stranded and a sitting duck.
This is exactly why Renegades like The Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs need to be handled in the Vanilla codex via switching of keywords. I know I sound like a broken record but it's such a small task to do and GW refuses to understand or get it.
Or they disagree with it. They haven't talked about it recently (and don't always succeed) but they've mentioned several times over the years that army identity is an important concept to them. Flippable chaos/imperium armies aren't something they want, for fluff reasons, identity reasons and of course sales reasons. It puts Cypher and the Fallen in a weird spot, but that's largely nostalgia goggles (he once had a model so had to get one again) overcoming good sense.
Really, how 'armies get to the battle' is trivial fluff stuff. It doesn't matter that there aren't chaos drop pod models- they could easily be terrain or command points or whatever. Armies are there and they fight. Game on.
Logistics in the 40k universe are really obviously nonsense word salad, and having chaos drop pods won't ever fix that, any more than having complete and unbroken timelines for each legionnaire from heresy to 41st millenium.
Also, tangent- pirate raider reiver theme? Chaos? They come and eat entire worlds or entire sectors are disrupted and rebel. Low key pirate raids aren't really a focus of chaos.
Starfarer wrote: GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
Pretty sure they've done exactly that sort of thing before. In fact, they have just trumped that for Skaven and Flesheaters. Single new model for each, go buy old stuff.
I honestly, no joking, think there is far less to this release than people are hoping for. Lots of the parts we've been shown are likely from the same kit or even same model in several cases.
Essentially super powerful possessed, I mean we have been needing a chaos space marine similar to just being possessed or a heroic unit that acts like an assassin for chaos.
Latro_ wrote: Tell you what chaos do need and I'd be loving... A new flyer. I'm trying to see if that pic from a few days back hints at that but can't see anything.
Some kinda half storm raven half heldrake transport oh lawd
Well the storm raven looks like half a flyer and the Heldrake already looks like half a heldrake... so there is that.
GW see CSM as a largely disorganized force that is unable to keep itself properly equipped. They have generally avoided choices that imply any sort of meaningful infrastructure. For example CSM never got drop pods in our codex, despite lore saying chaos uses drop pods, because the game designer don't picture Chaos as having the necessary non-combat support craft necessary to retrieve conventional drop pods... hence why the FW chaos claws are capable of flying around after coming down. Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
Where I'm going with that, I don't think we'll get a flying transport.
The problem is that none of that fits with the space pirate/raider/reiver theme. CSMs rarely deploy direct from the Warp, so they need some method of deploying direct from their space craft. Currently only Terminators can do that without FW kits.
Any CSM warband is going to heavily prioritise maintaining void-capable drop transports over all else bar their primary warship. Otherwise they are stranded and a sitting duck.
This is exactly why Renegades like The Crimson Slaughter and Red Corsairs need to be handled in the Vanilla codex via switching of keywords. I know I sound like a broken record but it's such a small task to do and GW refuses to understand or get it.
Or they disagree with it. They haven't talked about it recently (and don't always succeed) but they've mentioned several times over the years that army identity is an important concept to them. Flippable chaos/imperium armies aren't something they want, for fluff reasons, identity reasons and of course sales reasons. It puts Cypher and the Fallen in a weird spot, but that's largely nostalgia goggles (he once had a model so had to get one again) overcoming good sense.
Really, how 'armies get to the battle' is trivial fluff stuff. It doesn't matter that there aren't chaos drop pod models- they could easily be terrain or command points or whatever. Armies are there and they fight. Game on.
Logistics in the 40k universe are really obviously nonsense word salad, and having chaos drop pods won't ever fix that, any more than having complete and unbroken timelines for each legionnaire from heresy to 41st millenium.
Also, tangent- pirate raider reiver theme? Chaos? They come and eat entire worlds or entire sectors are disrupted and rebel. Low key pirate raids aren't really a focus of chaos.
Starfarer wrote: GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
Pretty sure they've done exactly that sort of thing before. In fact, they have just trumped that for Skaven and Flesheaters. Single new model for each, go buy old stuff.
I honestly, no joking, think there is far less to this release than people are hoping for. Lots of the parts we've been shown are likely from the same kit or even same model in several cases.
And in WHAT way is the Chaos Marine codex handling Renegades correctly?
It isn't. That's the answer. So how is that keeping army identity?
The teasing has gone on so long that people are just making .as assumptions now. At the start we were fairly sure what we were seeing but now it's all up in the air as people have had so much time to speculate over nothing.
If they don't reveal something good this weekend in gonna be really disappointed, sold 70 quids worth of Tau on eBay to pay for this release (or at least partly pay) and it's just sat there waiting...
GW did say that every day this week we would get "new previews, free short stories and much more". We have gotten two short stories, pretty weak. Just show the box..!
Also, tangent- pirate raider reiver theme? Chaos? They come and eat entire worlds or entire sectors are disrupted and rebel. Low key pirate raids aren't really a focus of chaos.
Fair enough that you disagree with the idea of giving CSM mobility options to fit their fluff, but it is undeniably the case that most CSM forces are essentially reavers preying on weak worlds. The majority of Chaos forces are broken into small warbands doing their own thing, striking wherever they can to avoid major Imperial retribution. It is only occasionally that warbands coalesce into larger forces that threaten entire sectors.
Examples: the Red Corsairs are explicitly raiding pirates; the entire BFG background has an increase in local pirate activity leading into the 12th Black Crusade; the Crimson Slaughter spend most of their time raiding; the Black Legion Lord in BSF was commanding a crew of raiders before his ship was absorbed into the fortress; etc.
Remember that pirates in 40k are on a huge scale- a Chaos warband with a single cruiser at their command has enough firepower to wipe out the settlements on lesser worlds. They are still just raiders most of the time who will generally flee Imperial Navy patrols and avoid important worlds, unless they make pacts or alliances with other warbands for a campaign.
phillv85 wrote: The countdown finishes on Tuesday. I'm not convinced we'll see anything before then.
The countdown was always specifically for Abaddon. It's even at the end of his teaser vid. We'll probably see other stuff then too but the countdown was for the coming of the warmaster.
We may get a shadowspear reveal on Friday. There have only been three shadowspear related things, those being the original announcement and the two teaser vids, all have been on a Friday. The daemon engine is for the broader CSM release (yeah, some of the images are of SS models but not explicitly)
I honestly, no joking, think there is far less to this release than people are hoping for. Lots of the parts we've been shown are likely from the same kit or even same model in several cases.
This seems like a weird coping mechanism to. Seen quite a few people say stuff like this. Lets look at things we "know" we're getting
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Possessed (at least 2)
Baseline CSM squad
Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Terminators (a basic trophy rack and powerfist isn't going of a character. Both TS and DG got new terminators. Also, artwork of flaming mace guy.)
Sorcerer
Dark Apostle (I think this is a pretty safe bet based on the rumour engine. At worst it's a Not!Dark Apostle)
Big thing that might be terrain
That's a pretty hefty release. Whichever way you slice it it's a revamp of the CSM range to bring it into line with the raptors and daemon engines. We also have artwork of chosen alongside flaming mace guy and from DV I'd say a chosen kit is probable too.
Starfarer wrote: GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
I’m not saying a champion though.
Like with Calgar and guard. That was a new Unit.
But it could well be the MoP and his two possessed guards. As opposed to a whole unit.
(Then bear in mind we still could get a ‘not in the box’ release of possessed.
I just think there’s no 100% at the moment.
Then again, I’m surprised some people are still saying maybe Abaddon is in the box.
Artwork, and the fact we’ve been shown the characters for it make it pretty concrete he isn’t.
Also a costly model like that, there’s no way they wouldn’t want to get full price and sell loads of him day one..
This seems like a weird coping mechanism to. Seen quite a few people say stuff like this. Lets look at things we "know" we're getting
Abaddon
Master of Possession
Possessed (at least 2)
Baseline CSM squad
Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Terminators (a basic trophy rack and powerfist isn't going of a character. Both TS and DG got new terminators. Also, artwork of flaming mace guy.)
Sorcerer
Dark Apostle (I think this is a pretty safe bet based on the rumour engine. At worst it's a Not!Dark Apostle)
Big thing that might be terrain
That's a pretty hefty release. Whichever way you slice it it's a revamp of the CSM range to bring it into line with the raptors and daemon engines. We also have artwork of chosen alongside flaming mace guy and from DV I'd say a chosen kit is probable too.
And give me Bringers of Despair!!!
Not that I necessarily disagree with the list, especially as you’ve put numbers in there, as I’m possessed, but still this isn’t a list of KNOW. As terminators aren’t known. They could be the two guard of Abaddon like Calgar instead of MoP getting a set like it (I don’t find that as likely though).
I think this release will be a big one, and it’s needed, but as much as half of the thread is people saying We don’t know as a coping mechanism, the other half is saying We Know.
The reality being somewhere just between.
A bit of a “We don’t know for certain, but this and this, I mean c’mon.. ”
Starfarer wrote: GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
Pretty sure they've done exactly that sort of thing before. In fact, they have just trumped that for Skaven and Flesheaters. Single new model for each, go buy old stuff.
I honestly, no joking, think there is far less to this release than people are hoping for. Lots of the parts we've been shown are likely from the same kit or even same model in several cases.
I'm not saying everything they've previewed will be in the Shadowspear box, but this release is pretty clearly different than a one and done battle box like Carrion Empire.
They've already shown enough possessed parts to indicate a squad, they shown 2 possessed backpacks already in addition to the possessed limbs. I get that being overly cynical is a thing here but it borders on absurd to outright deny the existence of things we've already seen.
So far we know for certain this is what is coming:
Abbaddon
CSM squad
Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Master of Possession
That's all in the Shadowspear box, excluding Abbaddon, and they've said there are more units included in the set.
Conservatively we can say we'll also get new Terminators and new Possessed, and that still leaves pics that hint at a Dark Apostle, either alternate variant of the Venomcrawler or a weapon option for it with a Baleflamer like weapon, and some sort of larger structure that could be anything from a terrain piece to a large daemon engine of some sort. There's also the possibility of havocs, although unless we see more heavy weapons teased that admittedly could just be part of the standard CSM kit.
So just from what we know that's quite a lot of stuff, and from what's teased, that's a whole lot more.
although the defiler has a reaper that looks like this pic it has two of them which constitutes one reaper. So this looks like a normal autocannon, with the heavy bolter preview its looking like we have new havocs.
Doubt its anything mounted on a new vehicle as it'd probably be a reaper
Starfarer wrote: GW has stated every unit in Shadowspear is a new unit. We've already seen the Master of Possession model. He does not have possessed parts himself. We've seen numerous parts from possessed looking units in the Rumor Engine.
So sure, there could be a single possessed champion type model and not new possessed models. I joked about that earlier in this thread. Chances are unlikely they'd create a Master of Possession, and a single Possessed character model and then say, "now go buy these old possessed models separately".
Pretty sure they've done exactly that sort of thing before. In fact, they have just trumped that for Skaven and Flesheaters. Single new model for each, go buy old stuff.
I honestly, no joking, think there is far less to this release than people are hoping for. Lots of the parts we've been shown are likely from the same kit or even same model in several cases.
I'm not saying everything they've previewed will be in the Shadowspear box, but this release is pretty clearly different than a one and done battle box like Carrion Empire.
They've already shown enough possessed parts to indicate a squad, they shown 2 possessed backpacks already in addition to the possessed limbs. I get that being overly cynical is a thing here but it borders on absurd to outright deny the existence of things we've already seen.
So far we know for certain this is what is coming:
Abbaddon
CSM squad
Obliterators
Venomcrawler
Master of Possession
That's all in the Shadowspear box, excluding Abbaddon, and they've said there are more units included in the set.
Conservatively we can say we'll also get new Terminators and new Possessed, and that still leaves pics that hint at a Dark Apostle, either alternate variant of the Venomcrawler or a weapon option for it with a Baleflamer like weapon, and some sort of larger structure that could be anything from a terrain piece to a large daemon engine of some sort. There's also the possibility of havocs, although unless we see more heavy weapons teased that admittedly could just be part of the standard CSM kit.
So just from what we know that's quite a lot of stuff, and from what's teased, that's a whole lot more.
TBF 3 and possibly 4 of the possessed rumour pics look like they are coming from one of the guys in the shadowspear box.
Tiberius501 wrote: Who's excited for just another short story tonight? Or better yet, just showing off a model we've already seen.
Hopefully we'll get a second Daemon engine pic. Maybe of a kneepad or something, that would really spice things up.
I'm hoping for a third heavy weapon (which would strongly suggest new Havocs) or a combi-bolter/reaper autocannon preview (which would further support a new Terminator kit) personally.
My guess is that the Autocannon is a sponson weapon for the Venomcrawler. Outside possibility of it signifying a new Havoc kit, but I am not convinced.
aka_mythos wrote: Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
They actually loot all their vehicles from loyalist stockpiles after they make planetfall and discard them when they leave. They do retrieve the spikes and trophy racks though so they can reuse them next time as they generally lack the infrastructure and technological sophistication to easily produce replacement decorations.
aka_mythos wrote: Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
They actually loot all their vehicles from loyalist stockpiles after they make planetfall and discard them when they leave. They do retrieve the spikes and trophy racks though so they can reuse them next time as they generally lack the infrastructure and technological sophistication to easily produce replacement decorations.
Those poor Chaos Space Marines will be in for a surprise when they face Primaris and realize that they don't use predators and landraiders.
aka_mythos wrote: Don't ask me how Predators get planet side if CSM don't have Thunderhawk transporters, which also retrieve drop pods.
They actually loot all their vehicles from loyalist stockpiles after they make planetfall and discard them when they leave. They do retrieve the spikes and trophy racks though so they can reuse them next time as they generally lack the infrastructure and technological sophistication to easily produce replacement decorations.
Those poor Chaos Space Marines will be in for a surprise when they face Primaris and realize that they don't use predators and landraiders.
Exactly. Not only are almost all their spikes specifically designed for compatibility with the MkIIc Rhino chassis, everyone knows unembiggened marines are physically incapable of riding in floaty tanks. This plot point will feature heavily in the novelization.
If they are power armor heavy weapons they will be pushed as a way to build havocs at the very minimum.
Which makes me think GW puts plants in these rumor threads to stir up dramedy over what GW should or shouldn't do so that they go "boom" when they do both things that are being complained about and ascend to chaos godhood.
That said, it was a pretty awesome one. Cool, stealthy kills. It's abott a Reiver though, maybe there are a new type of Reiver in the box? Or maybe the "Strike Force" that is mentioned at the end is the box contents for the Marines. Sounds more likely.
casvalremdeikun wrote: My guess is that the Autocannon is a sponson weapon for the Venomcrawler. Outside possibility of it signifying a new Havoc kit, but I am not convinced.
The picture from the Master of Position video has some vague figures in the background that are holding an autocannon that looks exactly like the one in the rumor engine.
The fact that's a regular Autocannon as opposed to a Reaper (the Reaper Autocannon has two barrels, and the Hades Autocannon looks like a Gatling gun) could mean new Havocs or it could be in the CSM kit. It could also be part of a vehicle as those tend to use regular Autocannons or Hades Autocannons, but often not a Reaper Autocannon. There's a barely visible, slightly abstract part on the side that could be a sponson for a vehicle but could also just be the rest of the autocannon that's held. There isn't enough of it to really tell.
casvalremdeikun wrote: My guess is that the Autocannon is a sponson weapon for the Venomcrawler. Outside possibility of it signifying a new Havoc kit, but I am not convinced.
The picture from the Master of Position video has some vague figures in the background that are holding an autocannon that looks exactly like the one in the rumor engine.
It isn't exactly the same- the DE pic has a support strut along the bottom that is absent in the video screenshot. The DE autocannon also seems to have a shorter barrel, although this is harder to tell. The absence of the strut is by far the most obvious feature. However, the two "barrels" on the screenshot autocannon are of different diametre, similar to the DE one, which to me points away from it being a reaper autocannon.
I think there are two autocannon designs floating around. This bodes well.
FunkyBoy wrote: Man, I'm super excited to finally see new Chaos stuff, the marines look awesome, it's about time Chaos got more love!
But that giant spider thing? Not so much... Makes me think back about how the Defiler was failure.
Has it been said if it's just marines getting a make over or are Raptors and Terminators and such coming too?
I've only seen snippets and can't seem to get any info!
Raptors are about the only kit that is near guaranteed to not get replaced- they are far newer than the rest of the range, and match the modern aesthetic being 6th ed plastics released following the awesome Dark Vengeance Chosen.
There are lots of hints about potential new Terminators, but nothing concrete. The best we have at the moment is for at least one new Terminator model being almost certain, but not necessarily a whole squad.
Similar for new Possessed- there is likely a squad, but we've only seen previews hinting at at least two models.
Havocs are a possibility, but we are only going on the existence of the heavy bolter and two similar, but slightly different autocannon designs previewed. A new Sorceror and Dark Apostle seem likely based on DE and RE pics, but nothing concrete either.
CSM, Obliterators, the Master of Possession and the Venom Crawler are confirmed by the teasers. Mutilators have no real evidence, but seem a no-brainer for a duel kit.
For the “Black Legion” to take our world in the remaining time on this presumptuous countdown would be impossible, requiring nothing less than the sudden arrival of thousands of Heretic Astartes and a Gloriana-class Battleship.
For the “Black Legion” to take our world in the remaining time on this presumptuous countdown would be impossible, requiring nothing less than the sudden arrival of thousands of Heretic Astartes and a Gloriana-class Battleship.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Still think that this autocannon and the heavy bolter are the 2 heavy weapon options in the CSM kit.
Look at the Rumour Engine thread- there seem to be two autocannon designs floating around.
However, that is why I want to see a third heavy weapon confirmed- I think more than two in the basic CSM box is very unlikely.
While it might not be ideal, if GW managed to put all the heavy weapons in the basic kit it'd be better than the current havoc squad kit. It might almost be enough that GW doesn't need to do a Havoc Squad kit, which would allow them to make other releases. The sprues have only become more crammed with bits than when the CSM kit was made and it isn't as if we had any new options for the Champion or weapon specialists. They could fit them on if they tried.
For the “Black Legion” to take our world in the remaining time on this presumptuous countdown would be impossible, requiring nothing less than the sudden arrival of thousands of Heretic Astartes and a Gloriana-class Battleship.
If that's not foreshadowing I don't know what is.
I'd hate to be that guy... I'm pretty sure jinxing it is punishable by death.
Latro_ wrote:although the defiler has a reaper that looks like this pic it has two of them which constitutes one reaper.
*grumble* Its pretty silly that something as big as the Defiler's reaper autocannon(s) is only a single reaper autocannon... especially when you compare it to what terminators can carry and the other weapons that use the same sort of Razorback turret type mount. If it can't be twin reapers, the halves of the Defiler's reaper autocannon(s) are each big enough to be a standard autocannon. *grumble*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: didnt take him long to fix up the vengeful spirit then
It probably fixed itself... its probably contributed so much the dark gods probably think more highly of it than most of their champions.
FunkyBoy wrote: Man, I'm super excited to finally see new Chaos stuff, the marines look awesome, it's about time Chaos got more love!
But that giant spider thing? Not so much... Makes me think back about how the Defiler was failure.
Has it been said if it's just marines getting a make over or are Raptors and Terminators and such coming too?
I've only seen snippets and can't seem to get any info!
Raptors are about the only kit that is near guaranteed to not get replaced- they are far newer than the rest of the range, and match the modern aesthetic being 6th ed plastics released following the awesome Dark Vengeance Chosen.
There are lots of hints about potential new Terminators, but nothing concrete. The best we have at the moment is for at least one new Terminator model being almost certain, but not necessarily a whole squad.
Similar for new Possessed- there is likely a squad, but we've only seen previews hinting at at least two models.
Havocs are a possibility, but we are only going on the existence of the heavy bolter and two similar, but slightly different autocannon designs previewed. A new Sorceror and Dark Apostle seem likely based on DE and RE pics, but nothing concrete either.
CSM, Obliterators, the Master of Possession and the Venom Crawler are confirmed by the teasers. Mutilators have no real evidence, but seem a no-brainer for a duel kit.
Ah thats a shame, saying that though the Raptors are not all that bad.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
Terminators eh? See what I was thinking is if Abby is getting a new Model, they would either include his bodyguards or at least a new Terminator kit, the current ones are okay but something a bit more interesting would not go amiss.
I'd love some new Havocs, they look so dated and bland now, I mean a conversion/kit-bash would fix that but new models would be cool. Always wondered why Chaos still use Autocannons.. wouldn't Heavy Bolters surpass that in every way? A new Sorceror would be good, there is one that comes to mind that was really cool, it may have been part of the Dark Vengeance set? Or maybe that was an Apostle.
I think new Oblitorators are a must, they have NEVER been good IMO for such a cool concept... lot of people talking about Mutilators, not really sure what they are, being in and out of the hobby I've missed a good chunk of news and such.
Indeed, our prognosticators inform us of a large warp disruption approaching the planet – we can only assume that it is Roboute Guilliman and his fleet, here to complete our liberation of the world
Indeed, our prognosticators inform us of a large warp disruption approaching the planet – we can only assume that it is Roboute Guilliman and his fleet, here to complete our liberation of the world
That's hilariously delusional.
-
hey they DID surmise correctly it was a glorianna class battleship leading the fleet, give em some credit!
FunkyBoy wrote: Man, I'm super excited to finally see new Chaos stuff, the marines look awesome, it's about time Chaos got more love!
But that giant spider thing? Not so much... Makes me think back about how the Defiler was failure.
Has it been said if it's just marines getting a make over or are Raptors and Terminators and such coming too?
I've only seen snippets and can't seem to get any info!
Raptors are about the only kit that is near guaranteed to not get replaced- they are far newer than the rest of the range, and match the modern aesthetic being 6th ed plastics released following the awesome Dark Vengeance Chosen.
There are lots of hints about potential new Terminators, but nothing concrete. The best we have at the moment is for at least one new Terminator model being almost certain, but not necessarily a whole squad.
Similar for new Possessed- there is likely a squad, but we've only seen previews hinting at at least two models.
Havocs are a possibility, but we are only going on the existence of the heavy bolter and two similar, but slightly different autocannon designs previewed. A new Sorceror and Dark Apostle seem likely based on DE and RE pics, but nothing concrete either.
CSM, Obliterators, the Master of Possession and the Venom Crawler are confirmed by the teasers. Mutilators have no real evidence, but seem a no-brainer for a duel kit.
Ah thats a shame, saying that though the Raptors are not all that bad.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
Terminators eh? See what I was thinking is if Abby is getting a new Model, they would either include his bodyguards or at least a new Terminator kit, the current ones are okay but something a bit more interesting would not go amiss.
I'd love some new Havocs, they look so dated and bland now, I mean a conversion/kit-bash would fix that but new models would be cool. Always wondered why Chaos still use Autocannons.. wouldn't Heavy Bolters surpass that in every way? A new Sorceror would be good, there is one that comes to mind that was really cool, it may have been part of the Dark Vengeance set? Or maybe that was an Apostle.
I think new Oblitorators are a must, they have NEVER been good IMO for such a cool concept... lot of people talking about Mutilators, not really sure what they are, being in and out of the hobby I've missed a good chunk of news and such.
Thanks for the update!
CSM use Autocannons because they didn't invent assault cannons. Assault cannons are the loyalist replacement for them. And all the renegades forgot to bring along their assault cannons with them...
The chosen in Dark Vengence weren't possessed, their armor was similar to the raptors I'd say.
Mutilators are CC Oblits that have been introduced in 6th edition. Their models were as aweful as their rules. Their rules are better now (still not great), the models are still ugly and failcast. If you ask me the whole concept of Mutilators is an epic fail, they took away Powerfists from Oblits to legitimate Mutilators, but they're still unnecessary, slow CC terminators when terminators are already not the greatest choice...
CSM use Autocannons because they didn't invent assault cannons. Assault cannons are the loyalist replacement for them. And all the renegades forgot to bring along their assault cannons with them...
The chosen in Dark Vengence weren't possessed, their armor was similar to the raptors I'd say.
Mutilators are CC Oblits that have been introduced in 6th edition. Their models were as aweful as their rules. Their rules are better now (still not great), the models are still ugly and failcast. If you ask me the whole concept of Mutilators is an epic fail, they took away Powerfists from Oblits to legitimate Mutilators, but they're still unnecessary, slow CC terminators when terminators are already not the greatest choice...
Way back in the day CSM could take any unit from the loyalist codex at a premium, when GW moved away from that it left this logic gap. GW doesn't seem to want to distinguish Renegade chapters from the Legions and we end up with something that doesn't really reflect half of the Chaos Marines in the galaxy. A proper Renegade codex would end up more like a codex for a non-codex marine chapter than the CSM codex.
Because I don't think GW will outright eliminate Mutilators, I keep hoping these new "obliterators" we're seeing are aren't actually obliterators, but a more elite obliterator that all the Obliterator and Multiator options combined, effectively merging the obliterators and mutilators back into one as a "new" unit.
Indeed, our prognosticators inform us of a large warp disruption approaching the planet – we can only assume that it is Roboute Guilliman and his fleet, here to complete our liberation of the world
That's hilariously delusional.
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The Roboute Guilliman in the Regimental Standard post links to the Abaddon YouTube video.
I think one of the other reasons chaos use autocannons amongst other things is that they are more reliable easy t maintain and less prone to malfunction... all about that needs to work every time limited resources etc
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yet they kept using plasma guns, even after they started melting on you. Presumably those are even harder to repair.
They perhaps prioritise maintaining a plasma weapon over a rotary weapon due to increased efficacy? Also, we know nothing of warp-tech- repairing a plasma weapon in a daemon forge may be easier than repairing a rotor cannon for all we know about it. Maybe daemons like being bound into a plasma coil
Making up fluff justifications for some of this isn't too hard The weirder bit is that some stuff just disappears entirely despite being simple tech, like any Land Raider Crusaders in a traitor Chapter, or drop pods.
Latro_ wrote: I think one of the other reasons chaos use autocannons amongst other things is that they are more reliable easy t maintain and less prone to malfunction... all about that needs to work every time limited resources etc
assault cannons used to explode on you in 2ed
They did in 3rd edition too. If you rolled 3 1's to hit the thing blew up and you couldn't use it any more.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Yet they kept using plasma guns, even after they started melting on you. Presumably those are even harder to repair.
if i remember correct chaos plasma cannons in 2ed were worse + could only go on dreads not normal marines owing to the new tech at the time needing lots of cables
2nd edition was basically any entirely different type of game and universe. Most comparisons should be with 3rd Ed and later, imo, when the fluff was more nailed down (then destroyed in 8th!)
Kirasu wrote: 2nd edition was basically any entirely different type of game and universe. Most comparisons should be with 3rd Ed and later, imo, when the fluff was more nailed down (then destroyed in 8th!)
Yes and no, I think the biggest take away from looking at the 2nd edition codex is that we used to be able to take any loyalist unit, albeit at a premium. The absence of that rule or any sort of alternative is where a lot of the disconnect between the game and lore for chaos come from. In this case the current lore still supports the notion represented by that old rule, but the current rules do not. Its less a comparison and more a root cause analysis. The best example in the previous edition one of the Renegade Astartes Chaos Space Marine armies that had rules, was in the lore described as drop pod assault specialists... could not take drop pods. Similarly any group of marines that went Renegade in the last 1000 years would still have some of the weapons and vehicles that CSM otherwise don't have access to.
Most likely its just a branding thing. However now that they promote a less formal game style in the form of narrative power level games, there is every reason to fix this, even if its only limited to a narrow play style.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
The Dark Vengeance Chosen weren't generic Chosen, even though pretty much everyone uses them that way. The models were specifically Crimson Slaughter where their armor, if I remember correctly, had become 'alive' constantly shifting and warping itself into agony screaming and moaning faces presumably from the innocents the Crimson Slaughter had murdered. The only way the armor quieted down was through more killing which after a while the screams and faces would return. At least that is what I remember about the literature that came with the Dark Vengeance boxed set. I only read through it the one time as a friend and I played through the scenarios. I have looked at it since and that was a couple years ago.
WhiteDog wrote: If the entire content of the box is released in this week, do you think the box will be available for purchase in april ? Or after that ?
The boxed set is likely to be fully announced this coming Sunday with pre-orders coming a week after. Expect a release date of March 16th.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
The Dark Vengeance Chosen weren't generic Chosen, even though pretty much everyone uses them that way. The models were specifically Crimson Slaughter where their armor, if I remember correctly, had become 'alive' constantly shifting and warping itself into agony screaming and moaning faces presumably from the innocents the Crimson Slaughter had murdered. The only way the armor quieted down was through more killing which after a while the screams and faces would return. At least that is what I remember about the literature that came with the Dark Vengeance boxed set. I only read through it the one time as a friend and I played through the scenarios. I have looked at it since and that was a couple years ago.
I would be very VERY surprised if the miniatures were designed around the Crimson Slaughter lore and not the other way around.
Kirasu wrote: 2nd edition was basically any entirely different type of game and universe. Most comparisons should be with 3rd Ed and later, imo, when the fluff was more nailed down (then destroyed in 8th!)
That's 1st Ed.
The fluff rationalisation that you're thinking of started in 2nd Ed.
And 2nd Ed Chaos is where the Gets Hot! rule came from.
They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
I'm not in a "save up for months" situation (thankfully). More like just a fortnightly budget one, but needing to balance that with the fortnights before and after. Which is why it's so useful to know the date.
Starfarer wrote: They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
That's not entirely fair. They gave us 80 days notice of... something. It could have just been the next Vigilis book for all we know. Or, as many suspected at the time (and is still at least partially true) the new Dooby miniature.
But it wasn't as if they said "Big box coming out in 80 days and we're not going to release anything between then and now so y'all got plenty'o'time to save up!".
Starfarer wrote: They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
That's not entirely fair. They gave us 80 days notice of... something. It could have just been the next Vigilis book for all we know. Or, as many suspected at the time (and is still at least partially true) the new Dooby miniature.
But it wasn't as if they said "Big box coming out in 80 days and we're not going to release anything between then and now so y'all got plenty'o'time to save up!".
"Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead, you’ll find two armies, ready to fight. But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt. Inside, you’ll find the Chaos miniatures you’ve always wanted, updated and adorned with dark and gothic detail, and pitted against them are the first of the Primaris Vanguard Space Marines."
Shadowspear isn't set on Vigilus though. And the 80 day countdown is for Vigilus, seeing as how it's Haarken's whole spiel. Abaddon isn't going to be included in the battlebox. We know the box will have other contents than what we already know, but the terminator(s) and other HQs (though, it's always possible another Chaos HQ is in the box. Tooth and Claw had an iconward and abominant.) will have to be released separately.
fraser1191 wrote: "Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead, you’ll find two armies, ready to fight. But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt. Inside, you’ll find the Chaos miniatures you’ve always wanted, updated and adorned with dark and gothic detail, and pitted against them are the first of the Primaris Vanguard Space Marines."
fraser1191 wrote: "Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead, you’ll find two armies, ready to fight. But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt. Inside, you’ll find the Chaos miniatures you’ve always wanted, updated and adorned with dark and gothic detail, and pitted against them are the first of the Primaris Vanguard Space Marines."
Starfarer wrote: They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
That's not entirely fair. They gave us 80 days notice of... something. It could have just been the next Vigilis book for all we know. Or, as many suspected at the time (and is still at least partially true) the new Dooby miniature.
But it wasn't as if they said "Big box coming out in 80 days and we're not going to release anything between then and now so y'all got plenty'o'time to save up!".
I think the 80 days notice being specifically Chaos related should have been enough to put CSM players on notice. It was enough to prevent me from buying another faction in the interim(GSC was super tempting), and in that time we've now seen plenty of units to indicate how big of a release this will be.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
The Dark Vengeance Chosen weren't generic Chosen, even though pretty much everyone uses them that way. The models were specifically Crimson Slaughter where their armor, if I remember correctly, had become 'alive' constantly shifting and warping itself into agony screaming and moaning faces presumably from the innocents the Crimson Slaughter had murdered. The only way the armor quieted down was through more killing which after a while the screams and faces would return. At least that is what I remember about the literature that came with the Dark Vengeance boxed set. I only read through it the one time as a friend and I played through the scenarios. I have looked at it since and that was a couple years ago.
I would be very VERY surprised if the miniatures were designed around the Crimson Slaughter lore and not the other way around.
I don't know. Their inclusion into 6th edition could have been any number of things that GW wanted to do. Maybe they were just generic filler villains for the Dark Angels to fight where the writers made up a story to go with their model design like you said. Maybe they meant to be the next big Chaos Space Marine thing and/or be the CSM poster boys but never caught on or something. Maybe they were simply meant to plant idea seeds on how even non-traitor legion CSM could be done. I can't say. Looking into a little more, it seems that GW seemed to want Crimson Slaughter to be a thing, but they never could decide on what that thing was. I also feel that Crimson Slaughter expansions and/or codex may have not sold well enough and/or the player base didn't become abuzz with them.
All I am saying is that the Dark Vengeance fluff was written to explain why the models looked the way they did. The writing spoke of the Chosen in the set like Space Hulk talked of the Terminators giving each one a name and a sentence or two on them. I can't remember if the Dark Angel tactical marines got the same treatment in the set. I painted mine in Black Legion and still use them. Although, I had to have the dual lightning claw one be the Aspiring Champion after GW decided to FAQ out that weapon loadout for non-champion Chosen for some reason. Or they can be count-as Fallen which still can have dual lightning claws even though the Dark Angel Veterans kit doesn't really allow it.
Starfarer wrote: They gave us 80 days notice. They revealed several units from the box set and said the rest would be shown at the end of the countdown. They are giving teasers of kits daily to give an idea of how big this release is, and that extends beyond a starter set.
I'm not sure what else they could do to inform us of when it's coming. We don't know the release date, but we can infer with the countdown coming on a Tuesday, preorders will go up that Saturday or the following Saturday at the latest.
That's not entirely fair. They gave us 80 days notice of... something. It could have just been the next Vigilis book for all we know. Or, as many suspected at the time (and is still at least partially true) the new Dooby miniature.
But it wasn't as if they said "Big box coming out in 80 days and we're not going to release anything between then and now so y'all got plenty'o'time to save up!".
I think the 80 days notice being specifically Chaos related should have been enough to put CSM players on notice. It was enough to prevent me from buying another faction in the interim(GSC was super tempting), and in that time we've now seen plenty of units to indicate how big of a release this will be.
I have actually liked that about this release. It has allowed me to save up some money just in case I like what is offered (and I certainly do). I am not feeling much hype fatigue as when the big reveal happened, I knew I was going to get it just based on the models shown. Whatever else in it probably can't sway me away for that. Since then I have kept an eye on this thread, but I haven't really given it much thought.
As to the waiting, I have been waiting years for sculpt updates (though less years than many other CSM players). The only slight concern I could have is Games Workshop making up brand new but only slightly different data sheets for these models ala Primaris. As in those models we though were Chaos Space Marines, no; those are Heretaris Marines which are clone troops that were never true Astartes filled with lesser deamons and super duper evil. I just wanted updated models to some the stuff that hasn't aged well for years now. I don't really care about the whatever the new stuff just yet. I can wait for the full reveal on the new stuff.
Doesn't Shadowspear take place on Nemendghast, which is in the Vigilis sector?
Haarken was specific in claiming Vigilis(Planet) for Abaddon, I would assume that Shadowspear sets up Vigilis book 2 which will lead to Abaddon being released.
Not sure what the time difference will be between Shadowspear & book 2. next week for previews of big box then maybe a month of filler before the Despoiler.
I don't think we'll see a box set release until after the April White Dwarf. From the preview of the March edition there was no mention of shadow spear.
I think on Tuesday we'll get to see Abaddon, that's it. Maybe the following Saturday Shadowspear will go on a two week pre-order. That would take us up to about the April White Dwarf preview time.
Remember the Malign Portents countdown only led to the world wide campaign thing, the soul wars box didn't appear for a while later.
fraser1191 wrote: "Shadowspear is a new battlebox. Like Forgebane, Tooth and Claw and Wake the Dead, you’ll find two armies, ready to fight. But there’s a twist – every single model in the box is a brand-new sculpt. Inside, you’ll find the Chaos miniatures you’ve always wanted, updated and adorned with dark and gothic detail, and pitted against them are the first of the Primaris Vanguard Space Marines."
So I just quickly skimmed through the stories again; the first one doesn’t mention any units by name, but here’s the list of stuff from the other two. Not saying this is definitive, but given the current GW trend for everything that’s shown or named to be based on actual models, so that you can buy and recreate it, I’d say this is a good indication of what might be in the release.
Spoiler:
Warpsmith(?) - although he gets killed and possessed, so more likely Possessed
Obliterator with plasma cannon and autocannon
Chaos Space Marines of the Black Legion*
“Mecha-thrills”* - Nega-volt cultists?
“Mutant beastmen”*
Master of Possession of the Black Legion
“Renegade guardsmen”* - including one woman
Arvus lighter terrain piece(?) - could just be flavour, but it’s oddly specifically described compared to the rest of the stories.
Ultramarines Reivers
* - these could just be reference to the Blackstone Fortress miniatures, release of those minis separately or a new kit based on the same aesthetic.
There is already a Warpsmith mini (and there always has been one since 3rd edition). Granted it's failcast, but it looks good and nothing in the rumor pics looks like it could belong to a Warpsmith.
I really wonder what Oblits will get ruleswize as GW stated they'd get stronger weapons. Going from the story and the pics I could see them going back to their old rules with actual weapons instead of the random ones they have currently. Probably a rule shooting two different ones every turn.
Speaking of Dark Vengeance Chosen, were they possessed? I can't remember... 'cos the current set of possessed to me, look so silly... so if there are new ones coming out I pray they are bloody good.
The Dark Vengeance Chosen weren't generic Chosen, even though pretty much everyone uses them that way. The models were specifically Crimson Slaughter where their armor, if I remember correctly, had become 'alive' constantly shifting and warping itself into agony screaming and moaning faces presumably from the innocents the Crimson Slaughter had murdered. The only way the armor quieted down was through more killing which after a while the screams and faces would return. At least that is what I remember about the literature that came with the Dark Vengeance boxed set. I only read through it the one time as a friend and I played through the scenarios. I have looked at it since and that was a couple years ago.
I would be very VERY surprised if the miniatures were designed around the Crimson Slaughter lore and not the other way around.
I don't know. Their inclusion into 6th edition could have been any number of things that GW wanted to do. Maybe they were just generic filler villains for the Dark Angels to fight where the writers made up a story to go with their model design like you said. Maybe they meant to be the next big Chaos Space Marine thing and/or be the CSM poster boys but never caught on or something. Maybe they were simply meant to plant idea seeds on how even non-traitor legion CSM could be done. I can't say. Looking into a little more, it seems that GW seemed to want Crimson Slaughter to be a thing, but they never could decide on what that thing was. I also feel that Crimson Slaughter expansions and/or codex may have not sold well enough and/or the player base didn't become abuzz with them.
All I am saying is that the Dark Vengeance fluff was written to explain why the models looked the way they did. The writing spoke of the Chosen in the set like Space Hulk talked of the Terminators giving each one a name and a sentence or two on them. I can't remember if the Dark Angel tactical marines got the same treatment in the set. I painted mine in Black Legion and still use them. Although, I had to have the dual lightning claw one be the Aspiring Champion after GW decided to FAQ out that weapon loadout for non-champion Chosen for some reason. Or they can be count-as Fallen which still can have dual lightning claws even though the Dark Angel Veterans kit doesn't really allow it.
my impression is that the crimson slaughter where created in the old days of GW where the focus was more on renegade chapters. and the goal was to create a new posterr boy chaos faction, that wasn't a traitor legion. player response was tepid at best, and calls for legion rules kept coming, that alongside the m,ass intreast in the HH, forced GW to reconsider their plans and they returned to putting the traitor legions front and center with 8th edition
Marleymoo wrote: I don't think we'll see a box set release until after the April White Dwarf. From the preview of the March edition there was no mention of shadow spear.
I think on Tuesday we'll get to see Abaddon, that's it. Maybe the following Saturday Shadowspear will go on a two week pre-order. That would take us up to about the April White Dwarf preview time.
Remember the Malign Portents countdown only led to the world wide campaign thing, the soul wars box didn't appear for a while later.
White Dwarf does not do previews anymore. Only fluff and rules. GW clearly said that previews are now a thing of the community page.
Wouldn't surprise me if we saw full Beastmen and Renegade Guard releases, or, rather Hornfaced Gorkillers and Traitoris Millitarum as they'll probably end up being called.
I don't see either forming part of csmtbh ... maybe on a later release for a heretic ig ... that way they can just add meat by bringing the entire IG line with a new upgrade frame
whose to say we won't get a release schedule of march being CSMs, the first half of april being vanguard space marines (remember that the shadowspear blurb says that shadowspear will give us "the first of the vanguard space marines" which to me implies we'll see more) and the second half of april being the return of the lost and the damned. Honestly lost and the damned coming out feels right, GW's been ressurecting an aweful lot of old school stuff (GSC's being the most obvious example) lost and the damned is a pretty obvious missing hole to fill
The rumour from someone on tga who is usually correct, is that the box set will go up for preorder on the 9th but it will be a two week preorder. The individual chaos releases will come after that.
Chikout wrote: The rumour from someone on tga who is usually correct, is that the box set will go up for preorder on the 9th but it will be a two week preorder. The individual chaos releases will come after that.
So at least 3 more weeks of the daemon rumour engine then? Or will it stop and just leave us with previews and no kits they match for 3 weeks, but no further previews?
The marketing process in this case is confusing lol
Someone on reddit apparently has a new chaos marine head:
BrianDavion wrote: whose to say we won't get a release schedule of march being CSMs, the first half of april being vanguard space marines (remember that the shadowspear blurb says that shadowspear will give us "the first of the vanguard space marines" which to me implies we'll see more) and the second half of april being the return of the lost and the damned. Honestly lost and the damned coming out feels right, GW's been ressurecting an aweful lot of old school stuff (GSC's being the most obvious example) lost and the damned is a pretty obvious missing hole to fill
I mean.. that’s a bit out of left field isn’t it?
Love the optimism, but there’s nothing even hinting towards that right?
If anything the second half of April would be AoS related.
Very similar to the back legs of the Venomcrawler but not identical. I'm guessing like the Bloat Drone for Death Guard we'll see a starter set version of the Venomcrawler, and a full kit release separately with alternate weapon options, like the baleflamer that was teased in an earlier rumor engine post.
Starfarer wrote: Very similar to the back legs of the Venomcrawler but not identical. I'm guessing like the Bloat Drone for Death Guard we'll see a starter set version of the Venomcrawler, and a full kit release separately with alternate weapon options, like the baleflamer that was teased in an earlier rumor engine post.
I'm fairly certain it had been confirmed everything was a full kit in this box set?
Starfarer wrote: Very similar to the back legs of the Venomcrawler but not identical. I'm guessing like the Bloat Drone for Death Guard we'll see a starter set version of the Venomcrawler, and a full kit release separately with alternate weapon options, like the baleflamer that was teased in an earlier rumor engine post.
I'm fairly certain it had been confirmed everything was a full kit in this box set?
On the Facebook page someone said it looked like the Venomcrawler legs, but GW posted back saying that they don't post pictures of stuff they've already revealed. So safe to say it most likely isn't the Venomcrawler.
I think it's just the other back leg of the Venomcrawler (i.e. the right rear leg rather than the left rear leg that we've already seen). It's mechanically identical, just with slightly different spiky trim to make the Venomcrawler look all asymetrical and Chaosy. You can actually see the top blade/spike sticking up in the already-seen Venomcrawler image (behind the head crest).
I love how sneaky they are with those teasers, somewhere out there somebody is working themselves into a frenzy about the upcoming release of a Dark Mechanicus Dunecrawler as a result of that picture. Exciting times for Chaos players though, and about time too.
The autocannons are different. The leg does look incredibly similar but perhaps a new daemon engine with the same style of legs/ new defiler done in the same style. Or they just posted a rumour engine of a model we've already seen which would suck.
From Regimental standard"our prognosticators inform us of a large warp disruption approaching the planet – we can only assume that it is Roboute Guilliman and his fleet, here to complete our liberation of the world."
I assume its the Venomcrawler as well.
But when someone mentioned that on their instagram page, they responded "but we've already shown that off. It's not the kind of thing we'd sneak peek in an image like this."
Probably a gotcha. 'Not the venom crawler, but actually from the alternate build, the gun toting 'poisoncrawler'' or some such thing. With the big gun from the other entry.
So a technically correct but meaningless distinction.
That would be such a cheap move. Especially since there's nothing stopping you from using whichever legs you want for the Venomcrawler. Unless it's radically different looking at the bottom and we just can't see it.
It could be a new defiler that has the same esthetic. Like a larger venom crawler. Lord knows that old POS model needs an update and complete overhaul to fit the line.
Thanks to Soulflayer’s dread rituals, malformed creatures now roam the warped industrial districts of Nemendghast in great number, a gruesome parade of heretical warriors infected with the touch of daemonkind and swollen with unnatural gifts. Though his command of the Black Legion on Nemendghast is absolute by decree of Abaddon himself, Vorash Soulflayer has not been without his rivals. The Legion’s Warpsmiths, in particular, have sought to dethrone him and lay claim to Nemendgast’s daemonic flesh-factories for themselves. Soulflayer cares little for such treachery – more than one Warpsmith has joined the ranks of his Daemonkin or been melded to a Daemon Engine for challenging his authority.
Yet those loyal to Soulflayer follow him without question, for they know that if he deems them worthy, he will reward them with transformation into a Greater Possessed – the largest, strongest and most fearsome of their kind. Fellow Daemonkin look upon these deformed champions with great reverence, for they are living proof of the ultimate ascension that awaits them all.
And the good news is, the mutated foot and claw hand are still unknown. Which could either mean theres a box of greater possessed, he's special character, or there will be a dual box.
Or it could just be the unit champion of a possessed squad
I'm not sure I like the model? It's very detailed and all but it's not quite the possessed I was expecting. I was hoping for something along the lines of the Gal Vorbak from Forgeworld.
Given the thickness of the rim compared to the width of the base, I really think it's a 40mm.
50mm bases look thinner in comparison to the width, even though all bases have the same height thickness.
Ahriman21 wrote: Of all things to whine about.....this model looks stellar.
Don't accuse people of "whining" in a pathetic attempt to dismiss criticism. And I never said I didn't like it. I actually do like it. Quite a bit. I hope there's more of them with lots of variety. One of those two things will probably be true.
Ahriman21 wrote: Possessed space marines SHOULD be the size of Primaris. note Gal Vorbak during the heresy.
I disagree, and I see no reason why they should be the size of Primaris other than it's yet another up-scale of a Marine kit.
Doesn't possession just make you bigger in general? Muscles growing, legs maybe distorting and getting longer.
I definitely think that Possessed marines should be bigger than normal ones, makes them more imposing. Gal Vorbak are amazing, if I played Chaos I would 100% use them as Possessed.
Ahriman21 wrote: Of all things to whine about.....this model looks stellar.
Don't accuse people of "whining" in a pathetic attempt to dismiss criticism. And I never said I didn't like it. I actually do like it. Quite a bit. I hope there's more of them with lots of variety. One of those two things will probably be true.
Ahriman21 wrote: Possessed space marines SHOULD be the size of Primaris. note Gal Vorbak during the heresy.
I disagree, and I see no reason why they should be the size of Primaris other than it's yet another up-scale of a Marine kit.
I just call it as I see it
The kit should absolutely be sized like Primaris, both for "upscaling" reasons AND for fluff reasons. Gal Vorbak style possessed (which seems to be what this unit is aiming for visually at least) are supposed to be huge in size as they matched Custodes in scale. If these new "greater possessed" *Gw speak for "new unit entry replacement* are supposed to be like that of course they will be big. looks like a 40mm
That possessed looks just like the bloke in the drawings / videos. Wonder if there will be variants of it.
And nothing indicates that this was a former primaris. Gal Vorbak were also significantly bigger than normal marines and at least in fluff could take on a Custodes.
In the name of the Emperor! I demand these space marine leaks stop being held prisoner by the heretics. We must know the new weapons we will have at our disposal to defend Vigilis!
Man, the Loyalist Space Marine side is just not going to hold a candle to the Chaos side whatsoever is it? So far everything that's been revealed for Chaos has been fantastic.
Dig everything but the giant mitt - Big Hand is one of the oldest but IMO lamest of the Chaos mutations I'm also a big fan of possessed chaos marines in general, really take the 'fallen space marine' seed and let it grow wild, instead of being sullen / angry spiky marines in dark and/or garish power armor. Not that there's too much wrong with that, it's just not OMF CHOAS enough for me some days
Re: alternate tick bits, seems a lot like the kit will build a new defiler. Autocannon, baleflamer, legs with heavy grieves all check out. Plus building a new defiler into that kit makes good sense - replaces an old model while condensing SKUs and limiting overall design work, while also allowing it to be based, which (Tizz bless them) GW is doing a much better job of when it comes to new vehicles. Looking at the Ork and GSC buggies. IMO all models should be based for game play purposes (abstraction legs to better translation of rules to tabletop, allows for freedom of modeling, etc, etc), I say having had so many years of having my defiler shot or charged because a leg spike was poking out of cover
At least the possessed has decent leg poses, that's been the biggest fault in a lot of GW's models (as if they're designers don't understand how humans move lately)
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The kit should absolutely be sized like Primaris, both for "upscaling" reasons AND for fluff reasons. Gal Vorbak style possessed (which seems to be what this unit is aiming for visually at least) are supposed to be huge in size as they matched Custodes in scale. If these new "greater possessed" *Gw speak for "new unit entry replacement* are supposed to be like that of course they will be big. looks like a 40mm
If its Primaris sized I thinks most likely its just incidental. GW is upsizing all new marines, like Deathguard or Thousand Sons, but those aren't Primaris sized, they are just better proportioned and a little bit taller for it. These possessed are most likely like that and if they are Primaris sized its because the possessed are probably super-sized versions of the now upscaled standard marines rather than being a Chaos - primaris.
If the new possessed are suppose to be possessed primaris, I would actually hope they'd end up a little bigger than primaris for it.
Either way, I think this is the first Possessed kit I thought looked good enough that I actually want to build it for what it is. Thank you GW. It's been a long road paved with tooo many poor attempts at the concept but these are good.
Over on facebook GW community was insisting this isn't any kit they've already revealed. That once the reveal a whole model the won't generally tease a bit of it.
I'm wondering if the greater possessed is a new unit or what will be a squad upgrade. Seems kind of silly to create another unit of possessed. Unless this is GW's compromise for advancing their game by keep the old stuff in place for those that don't want to buy anything new.
And hope this guy is a unit leader. I'd hate it if they are a brand new kind of super possesed, and we're stuck with the old crapppy models for the regular possesed
Nym wrote: Guys, these spikes are the ones on the head of the possessed. They just forgot to clean them. This is clearly this model's backpack.
While I agree the middle one could be, the one where the shoulder is, you would see the spike through the back back and under it, as per the pic with spike on the right. You would see the spike coming up under the backpack and go behind it.
Either way though it means a new data sheet of some kind; a squad leader would require it.
I tend to think it is more likely a new type of possessed, which I am pretty kosher with. I'd love to see a unit type in chaos which was something like DE Grotesque or a Bullygrin.
Something like Str 5, T5, 3W, 3-4A 3+/5++ 7" or 8" move could really have a place with the right weapon, particularly if upgrade options were something which could be "roll 2 or pick 1" as we've seen with other things or just purchasable. Not that I think we'd get it given what the kits look like, but getting wings again would be so good...
I do like that the Master of Possessions is looking like he's going to have fly. The narrative described him as floating on invisible fields of force and looking at his model it seems plausible he'd be flying. That seems to make it much more likely he can keep up with the kind of speed needed by a legit melee unit, particularly if he is going to be buffing them.
Messiah wrote: Are we sure that that is a greater possessed? It sure looks like a regular one..
right before the pic in the article is this text:
Yet those loyal to Soulflayer follow him without question, for they know that if he deems them worthy, he will reward them with transformation into a Greater Possessed – the largest, strongest and most fearsome of their kind. Fellow Daemonkin look upon these deformed champions with great reverence, for they are living proof of the ultimate ascension that awaits them all.
actually reading that again 'chapions' 'look up to them'. I'm leaning on there only being a couple of them and they are characters that do buffs like exalted champs
I actually don't think the Greater Possessed will be a unit upgrade for regular Possessed. It isn't GW's style and would require an updated Datasheet for Possessed, which is unlikely More likely, the GP is a Character unit that somehow interacts/buffs units of Possessed
I like the mini. But I will cut the decorations on the lower leg armour. I had it with this tongue licking deamonfaces on the armour of my minis. Also the sideways flying skull will not survive the knife.
Also also I hope there will be a real crab claw in the bunch, as this is my favourite bit of the current possessed.
TopPlatypus wrote: getting a Defiler vibe from this line in the new story, added spoiler just in case people want to read it first.
Spoiler:
"Larger Daemon-beasts crawled amongst them, stomping with piston-driven force into the fray."
I’d love to see the chaos tick possessed and turned into a chaos marine spider centaur, I think they were driders in dungeons and dragons. It would be a neat idea for the one possessed warpsmith they have referred to.
Galef wrote: I actually don't think the Greater Possessed will be a unit upgrade for regular Possessed. It isn't GW's style and would require an updated Datasheet for Possessed, which is unlikely
More likely, the GP is a Character unit that somehow interacts/buffs units of Possessed
This makes me excited. I really hope we see a new kit for the Possessed unit, with Greater Possessed being a Champion character of some kind.
The old Possessed already looked rubbish, they will look even worse next to this bad boy.
I would love a new possessed kit but with the history of GW treating chaos models I bet it will be like Dark Vengeance. Some new sculpts of like 2-3 possessed and like 5 marines, but all monopose and never available as proper kit, like the chosen / csm. We did not even get a real cultist unit, only a fraction of the available sculpts that got included in DV.
I’d love to see the chaos tick possessed and turned into a chaos marine spider centaur, I think they were driders in dungeons and dragons. It would be a neat idea for the one possessed warpsmith they have referred to.
forgot about those dudes, creepy looking. they'd be pretty rad in partial mechanical form!
I think it's pretty likely that guy is a posessed character, rather than a squad leader. He might be an elite or maybe an HQ.
However, he doesn't seem to be the only possessed model in the works. That crab claw that we've seen is part of another model, and I'm not sure the feet match either.
>1 possessed probably equals a unit of them, I think. But I'm not sure.
In any case, as with the CSMs themselves, new models for units with bad rules are kind of no use. I really hope we get both so that you start to actually see power-armoured models in CSM armies.
Yeah I don't have high hopes for the Greater Possessed. They'll be a melee unit that will die before it can get into melee because, like most things, it will either have to footslog up the board, be put in an overpriced transport, or deepstrike outside of 9", fail a charge, and then get shot in the next turn anyway, relying completely on a 3+ armor save, maybe 2 wounds, maybe a 5+ invul save. None of that will stop the unit, which will likely be overpriced for its offensive abilities, from being wiped out by a unit of hellblasters that'll somehow be half the price.
drbored wrote: Yeah I don't have high hopes for the Greater Possessed. They'll be a melee unit that will die before it can get into melee because, like most things, it will either have to footslog up the board, be put in an overpriced transport, or deepstrike outside of 9", fail a charge, and then get shot in the next turn anyway, relying completely on a 3+ armor save, maybe 2 wounds, maybe a 5+ invul save. None of that will stop the unit, which will likely be overpriced for its offensive abilities, from being wiped out by a unit of hellblasters that'll somehow be half the price.
Well now that we know everything is terrible, we can just scrap the whole release I guess. Maybe if we're lucky they'll just squat the entire faction and save us the trouble.
drbored wrote: Yeah I don't have high hopes for the Greater Possessed. They'll be a melee unit that will die before it can get into melee because, like most things, it will either have to footslog up the board, be put in an overpriced transport, or deepstrike outside of 9", fail a charge, and then get shot in the next turn anyway, relying completely on a 3+ armor save, maybe 2 wounds, maybe a 5+ invul save. None of that will stop the unit, which will likely be overpriced for its offensive abilities, from being wiped out by a unit of hellblasters that'll somehow be half the price.
As someone who plays in order to push little plastic men around a table with a friend and make blim-blam noises, I'm thrilled for these new models and will be including them in my CSM army, regardless of their rules. Because fun!
drbored wrote: Yeah I don't have high hopes for the Greater Possessed. They'll be a melee unit that will die before it can get into melee because, like most things, it will either have to footslog up the board, be put in an overpriced transport, or deepstrike outside of 9", fail a charge, and then get shot in the next turn anyway, relying completely on a 3+ armor save, maybe 2 wounds, maybe a 5+ invul save. None of that will stop the unit, which will likely be overpriced for its offensive abilities, from being wiped out by a unit of hellblasters that'll somehow be half the price.
Since normal possessed are 2 wounds, 3+/5++ I'd expect at least 3 wounds here and maybe an fnp on top. Will they need to footslog? Probably. They will likely be reasonably quick, have ways of moving twice readily available and if you take renegades/red corsairs, advance and charge.
Exalted Champion kind of fills both Lieutenant and {company/chapter} champion, so my guess is brawler and/or daemon + heretic astartes buffers, esp. since the BL raptor lord only buffs the basic unit and not warp talons.
BrotherGecko wrote:Well there is always the chance that the alternative build for the venomcrawler is a transport.
Umm it doesn't look that big... its like a 60mm base from the looks of it. What do you imagine it transporting?
We do know its suppose to weaken reality and make it easier for daemons to manifest around it. So I guess we can think of it as a Daemon's transport.
BrotherGecko wrote:Well there is always the chance that the alternative build for the venomcrawler is a transport.
Umm it doesn't look that big... its like a 60mm base from the looks of it. What do you imagine it transporting?
We do know its suppose to weaken reality and make it easier for daemons to manifest around it. So I guess we can think of it as a Daemon's transport.
I thought it looked like a 100mm base, which would make it pretty chunky.
Not that familiar with Codex CSM, but are "Demonkin" a thing in the book? Its a word that GW seem to be using a lot when they talk about the Chaos half of Shadow Spear. And it feels like they may be setting it up as some kind of proto subfaction keyword, in the same way that they use "Primaris" in the SM books.
drbored wrote: Yeah I don't have high hopes for the Greater Possessed. They'll be a melee unit that will die before it can get into melee because, like most things, it will either have to footslog up the board, be put in an overpriced transport, or deepstrike outside of 9", fail a charge, and then get shot in the next turn anyway, relying completely on a 3+ armor save, maybe 2 wounds, maybe a 5+ invul save. None of that will stop the unit, which will likely be overpriced for its offensive abilities, from being wiped out by a unit of hellblasters that'll somehow be half the price.
Well now that we know everything is terrible, we can just scrap the whole release I guess. Maybe if we're lucky they'll just squat the entire faction and save us the trouble.
This is the most sensible option. It would save us from a ton of complaining threads on dakka.
I for one have had little to zero interest in anything chaos ever. But this new stuff is really calling @ me to start a renegade force. the primaris stuff is why I'm buying the box but now instead of selling the chaos side, I wont.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Not that familiar with Codex CSM, but are "Demonkin" a thing in the book? Its a word that GW seem to be using a lot when they talk about the Chaos half of Shadow Spear. And it feels like they may be setting it up as some kind of proto subfaction keyword, in the same way that they use "Primaris" in the SM books.
No. It honestly sounds like a new keyword to separate the various csm daemon hybrid units from the proper daemons and "fix" the fact that as things stand these CSM units can benefit from the effects in both the CSM codex and Chaos Daemons codex. That is something of an outlier advantage and a surprise that it hasn't been addressed given the approach they've taken with this edition it really seemed unintentional. Personally I liked these CSM units being able to benefit like that, but GW.
Said it before imo and a guess but daemonkin will prob be a keyword you buy for a detachment with cp like the viglius book does for marines that unlocks rules relics etc
BrotherGecko wrote:Well there is always the chance that the alternative build for the venomcrawler is a transport.
Umm it doesn't look that big... its like a 60mm base from the looks of it. What do you imagine it transporting?
We do know its suppose to weaken reality and make it easier for daemons to manifest around it. So I guess we can think of it as a Daemon's transport.
The artwork places it in the area of being on a 100-150mm base. Otherwise its about the same size as the obliterator. Either way, it is a reality defying, laughing in the face of physics, non-real organic machine made of iron, souls and nightmares. So why couldn't it just poop out possessed or chaos marines like a monolith?
BrotherGecko wrote:Well there is always the chance that the alternative build for the venomcrawler is a transport.
Umm it doesn't look that big... its like a 60mm base from the looks of it. What do you imagine it transporting?
We do know its suppose to weaken reality and make it easier for daemons to manifest around it. So I guess we can think of it as a Daemon's transport.
The artwork places it in the area of being on a 100-150mm base. Otherwise its about the same size as the obliterator. Either way, it is a reality defying, laughing in the face of physics, non-real organic machine made of iron, souls and nightmares. So why couldn't it just poop out possessed or chaos marines like a monolith?
Yeah, I think you're right. The more I look and think on it... it's probably meant to be the chaos counter part to the Mechanicus dunecrawler. That base is 130mm. I think what threw me off was that someone said the guns were heavy stubbers (making it like the smaller and clearly wrong one in my bellow pictures). Clearly they're more autocannon/reaper autocannon sized.
When you put them next to each other is seem pretty plainly they're on the same size base.
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BrotherGecko wrote: I'm wondering if the greater possessed is a new unit or what will be a squad upgrade. Seems kind of silly to create another unit of possessed. Unless this is GW's compromise for advancing their game by keep the old stuff in place for those that don't want to buy anything new.
Like they have been doing for every Primaris Unit?
GoatboyBeta wrote: Not that familiar with Codex CSM, but are "Demonkin" a thing in the book? Its a word that GW seem to be using a lot when they talk about the Chaos half of Shadow Spear. And it feels like they may be setting it up as some kind of proto subfaction keyword, in the same way that they use "Primaris" in the SM books.
It used to be one encompassing demon units (IIRC: demon prince, possessed, warp talons, obliterators, mutilators). I agree with Lastro that it will probably become a bought detachment keyword, if it's not just <legion> dudes with the daemon keyword.
I play CSM Renegades and use almost zero Chaos models (never cared for them), but if the Greater Possessed isn't a character, it may be the Primarization of Chaos. Bigger models, a couple extra attacks, wounds, etc.
It's neat to see CSM get so many toys/units which I won't be buying (but I'll kit-bash if the rules aren't obnoxious).
According to the new bit of vigilus fluff that we got today when the spider demon engine thing dies, smaller versions of itself and other horrific creatures come out of it, maybe it is a transport for possessed?
Also apparently the flying primaris dudes weapons shot missiles of some sort.
Mantle wrote: According to the new bit of vigilus fluff that we got today when the spider demon engine thing dies, smaller versions of itself and other horrific creatures come out of it, maybe it is a transport for possessed?
Also apparently the flying primaris dudes weapons shot missiles of some sort.
could just be some sort of rule that when it dies it explodes extra good
My understanding is that the dome referenced is part of the Forge's architecture. Daemon spider engines pour out of it, after it is destroyed by missiles shot by Space Marines flyers.
The spiders were coming out of the factory, not another spider. However they did mention an even larger daemon engine with the spiders. This might be an even larger vehicle we didn’t see yet.
Mendi Warrior wrote: My understanding is that the dome referenced is part of the Forge's architecture. Daemon spider engines pour out of it, after it is destroyed by missiles shot by Space Marines flyers.
You are correct sir it clearly states a trio of marine fliers destroy the dome structure with missiles allowing hundreds of Denon engines to come out, most interestingly it mentions other much larger engines. Possibly a new defiler?
I read it as the dome exploding was like another building housing more of the same daemon engines...
On the bigger engine mentioned. The auto cannon pic and the leg pic plus the auto cannons wording was MORTAL, I THINK TODAY’S DARK VISION OF A FUTURE MODEL IS THE MOST POWERFUL YET! GAZE UPON ITS GLORY.
Why would the auto cannon be the most powerful model yet...unless of course it's an updated defiler
I would love larger daemon engines.
"Pimp my old Defiler" will be easy if there are alternate builds and leftover bits.
My only certainty so far is that all of this will hurt ... this will really hurt … My wallet will die in excruciating pain (again)
Mantle wrote: According to the new bit of vigilus fluff that we got today when the spider demon engine thing dies, smaller versions of itself and other horrific creatures come out of it, maybe it is a transport for possessed?
Also apparently the flying primaris dudes weapons shot missiles of some sort.
Nah the "ridged dome" they climb out of is another factory in the distance. And there is no mention of any Primaris Vanguard troopers. The story describes "boxy blue aircraft of the Emperor’s lapdogs". So probably Ultramarines Storm Ravens/Talons/Hawks.
also pure speculation but look at the middle bottom of the current defiler it's rounded torso... could fit with that preview with the chains coming down
GaroRobe wrote: Couldn't you say the same about possessed, though? (This example relies on the hope that possessed get a new kit, not just Greater Possessed.)
People like possessed as a unit in terms of lore and all, they just don't get used much due to bad stats. People want to use them. The defiler doesn't have the same appeal. It's kind of iconic, but mostly just because it was the only daemon engine kit for a long time, and it's always been kind of ridiculous. I have 2 so i have a fondness for them and wish they were better, but I understand that they probably won't ever be.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Do you really think that, given the information about Primaris Possessed, that regular Possessed are getting a new kit as well?
This assumes the greater possessed isn't something like an elite choice character like how every updated 8th edition faction has by the bucket and that the set wouldn't also have normal possessed to go with their big daddy.
But has anyone suggested that these 2 Greater Possessed models (it appears to only be 2 from the artwork, but will of course wait for clarification) will work in a similar fashion to how Geminae or the new bodyguards for Calgar work?
Seems to make the most sense to me, a perfect counter grouping of models to go against Calgar and his bodyguard.
That was theorized a few pages back. You'd think it would be something that the article would have mentioned. Personally, the moon shaped claw just seems pretty uninspired for a model that will make up half a unit, if they are two per squad.
GaroRobe wrote: That was theorized a few pages back. You'd think it would be something that the article would have mentioned. Personally, the moon shaped claw just seems pretty uninspired for a model that will make up half a unit, if they are two per squad.
The second Possessed alongside the Master of Possession in the artwork at the top of the villain article has the moon claw. However, there are two other Marines with similar eyes to the two Possessed in the background. I'm still holding out hope for a full kit of Possessed.
GaroRobe wrote: That was theorized a few pages back. You'd think it would be something that the article would have mentioned. Personally, the moon shaped claw just seems pretty uninspired for a model that will make up half a unit, if they are two per squad.
Of course, it was a dumb theory. Unless you are talking about something else than the name.
Primaris Possessed seems appropriate to me because fluff-wise they have been teasing chaos really wanting some of that sweet Primaris Marine action. It seems like a no-brainer that these would be Primaris-tier.
Yes, the laughing Ork faces and the fact that I like the model really shows off the rage.
Marshal Loss wrote: Really hoping it's a new unit and not just a new character. I want a full squad of bad boys of that quality. What an amazing sculpt.
Well there a few options:
1. It's a character, in which case boo. 2. It's one of a pair of bodyguard. Also boo. 3. It's the one big thing in a new unit of Possessed (like the ATV in the GSC Outrider kit). That's... fine I guess. 4. It's part of a new Primaris Greater Possessed kit that has 5 models (probably with limited poses but lots of different arms/heads).
On Voxcast they specifically mentioned starting to upsize Chaos Marines with the Thousands Sons and Death Guard release because they knew they were rebooting Imperial marines with Primaris. The true scaling of Marines by GW has been in the works for years.
GaroRobe wrote: Couldn't you say the same about possessed, though? (This example relies on the hope that possessed get a new kit, not just Greater Possessed.)
People like possessed as a unit in terms of lore and all, they just don't get used much due to bad stats. People want to use them. The defiler doesn't have the same appeal. It's kind of iconic, but mostly just because it was the only daemon engine kit for a long time, and it's always been kind of ridiculous. .
If the Defiler doesn't have the same appeal it may be because its a really silly looking model and always has been. It looks like a He-Man toy. no wonder people don't want to use it. What better way to get people to want to use the unit then a new model that actually looks amazing?
GaroRobe wrote: Couldn't you say the same about possessed, though? (This example relies on the hope that possessed get a new kit, not just Greater Possessed.)
People like possessed as a unit in terms of lore and all, they just don't get used much due to bad stats. People want to use them. The defiler doesn't have the same appeal. It's kind of iconic, but mostly just because it was the only daemon engine kit for a long time, and it's always been kind of ridiculous. .
If the Defiler doesn't have the same appeal it may be because its a really silly looking model and always has been. It looks like a He-Man toy. no wonder people don't want to use it. What better way to get people to want to use the unit then a new model that actually looks amazing?
Sure, if you want to redeem the defiler to the fanbase you probably could. But why bother when you can introduce something totally new with no baggage? The problem isn't just that the kit is bad, it's that the whole unit design is a bit silly. Putting out another defiler with a higher level of detail doesn't solve the problem.
I'm also a big fan of possessed chaos marines in general, really take the 'fallen space marine' seed and let it grow wild, instead of being sullen / angry spiky marines in dark and/or garish power armor. Not that there's too much wrong with that, it's just not OMF CHOAS enough for me some days 
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also pure speculation but look at the middle bottom of the current defiler it's rounded torso... could fit with that preview with the chains coming down
