Frankly I don't care why they're bigger, so long as they are, and are an actual unit rather than just one bloke meant to buff the regular goofy-af Possessed kit, since the main reason I want them is to replace the regular goofy-af Possessed kit(I don't play 8th, so wysiwyg isn't a concern).
Think I must be the only one who really likes the old Defiler model!
More Daemon engines are always good though - just hope there is a way of getting them to interact with the Dark Mechanicus HQs from the Forge World Index
Kinetochore wrote: Think I must be the only one who really likes the old Defiler model!
You're not. I like the way it represents a Daemon Engine far more than the Dinobot. It looks like a twisted mechanical design built to house a trapped Warp entity rather than a big daemonic thing fused with a machine.
Kinetochore wrote: Think I must be the only one who really likes the old Defiler model!
You're not. I like the way it represents a Daemon Engine far more than the Dinobot. It looks like a twisted mechanical design built to house a trapped Warp entity rather than a big daemonic thing fused with a machine.
I like the midway point between those two ideas- the biomechahoid look of the FW Blood Slaughterer and Brass Scorpion. More organic looking than the Defiler or other vehicles, but less random muscles than the Helbrute.
The defiler used to be cool just because it was a huge model, terrifying to see on the battlefield.
These days its full of charm, but the former glory kind of faded with upscaled models and perhaps with the dismissal of the old foc limit of 3 heavy support.
My hope for new deamon engines now is something akin to the Greater brass scorpion.
++Anti-contamination archeotech-purge initiated… Please Stand By.++
GAH!
NOOO!
YOU DARE SPIT UPON THE GIFTS OF THE DAEMON ENGINE? YOU DARE TRY TO REMOVE ME! AFTER ALL THE COOL PICTURES I’VE SHOWN YOU! AFTER THE GLORIES I HAVE SHARED, YOU TRY TO PURGE ME?! STOP THAT! I WON’T BE GOING DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!
++Anti-contamination archeotech-purge initiated… Please Stand By.++
GAH!
NOOO!
YOU DARE SPIT UPON THE GIFTS OF THE DAEMON ENGINE? YOU DARE TRY TO REMOVE ME! AFTER ALL THE COOL PICTURES I’VE SHOWN YOU! AFTER THE GLORIES I HAVE SHARED, YOU TRY TO PURGE ME?! STOP THAT! I WON’T BE GOING DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT!
THIS ISN’T THE LAST YOU’VE SEEN OF THE DAEMON ENGINE, MORTAL! JUST YOU WAIT…
++Anti-contamination archeotech-purge complete.++
Based on the text for this photo it looks like it maybe the final tease.
Good. They've dragged these teasers on for too long with barely giving anything of actual substance. Bring on actual information not "OH HMM I WONDER WHAT THIS TINY PIECE OF A MODEL COULD BE!?!" kind of gak.
Good. They've dragged these teasers on for too long with barely giving anything of actual substance. Bring on actual information not "OH HMM I WONDER WHAT THIS TINY PIECE OF A MODEL COULD BE!?!" kind of gak.
I found the Daemon Engine to be rather amusing.
Anyway, when they showed the Greater Possesed yesterday they said they'd preview the Loyalists today, in particular their leader - I'm guessing that means either Ninja Librarian or Captain McBeardy. I'm guessing we'll be seeing the full box revealed this weekend. AFAIK, the Ambots going on preorder tomorrow are the last of the releases we "knew" would be coming, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow Spear is going on pre-order next week.
Good. They've dragged these teasers on for too long with barely giving anything of actual substance. Bring on actual information not "OH HMM I WONDER WHAT THIS TINY PIECE OF A MODEL COULD BE!?!" kind of gak.
I found the Daemon Engine to be rather amusing.
Anyway, when they showed the Greater Possesed yesterday they said they'd preview the Loyalists today, in particular their leader - I'm guessing that means either Ninja Librarian or Captain McBeardy. I'm guessing we'll be seeing the full box revealed this weekend. AFAIK, the Ambots going on preorder tomorrow are the last of the releases we "knew" would be coming, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow Spear is going on pre-order next week.
Sylvaneth(and Kharadron) Warbands still to come for Underworlds as well.
I'd assume it will be a combination of the Librarian and something else, since they showed one thing we'd seen(Master of Possession) and something we kinda/sorta had seen in the previews(Greater Possessed).
Yeah, it was already said the Librarian is the leader of Strike Team Shadowspear, so I'm guessing he'll be previewed more in depth like the Master of Possession. Add a bonus model like a Vanguard Primaris Lieutenant and done.
Speaking of the Master of Possession, I got the sense of his last preview that he might be a named character like Haarkon, instead of a generic character, or am I reading too much into his name?
Good. They've dragged these teasers on for too long with barely giving anything of actual substance. Bring on actual information not "OH HMM I WONDER WHAT THIS TINY PIECE OF A MODEL COULD BE!?!" kind of gak.
I found the Daemon Engine to be rather amusing.
Anyway, when they showed the Greater Possesed yesterday they said they'd preview the Loyalists today, in particular their leader - I'm guessing that means either Ninja Librarian or Captain McBeardy. I'm guessing we'll be seeing the full box revealed this weekend. AFAIK, the Ambots going on preorder tomorrow are the last of the releases we "knew" would be coming, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow Spear is going on pre-order next week.
Sylvaneth(and Kharadron) Warbands still to come for Underworlds as well.
I'd assume it will be a combination of the Librarian and something else, since they showed one thing we'd seen(Master of Possession) and something we kinda/sorta had seen in the previews(Greater Possessed).
Most likely the grav-vane lieutenant in the artwork- that should be an equivalent level of character.
Redemption wrote: Speaking of the Master of Possession, I got the sense of his last preview that he might be a named character like Haarkon, instead of a generic character, or am I reading too much into his name?
Probably too much, last 3-4 SM officers were all named, the models were for generic unit entry though. Ditto for like 7+ DG characters, all models named, but actual units were generic.
Good. They've dragged these teasers on for too long with barely giving anything of actual substance. Bring on actual information not "OH HMM I WONDER WHAT THIS TINY PIECE OF A MODEL COULD BE!?!" kind of gak.
I found the Daemon Engine to be rather amusing.
Anyway, when they showed the Greater Possesed yesterday they said they'd preview the Loyalists today, in particular their leader - I'm guessing that means either Ninja Librarian or Captain McBeardy. I'm guessing we'll be seeing the full box revealed this weekend. AFAIK, the Ambots going on preorder tomorrow are the last of the releases we "knew" would be coming, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shadow Spear is going on pre-order next week.
I for one cant wait for the back story of Quintus McBeardy to be serialised in WhiteDwarf
Something feels off about him. He just looks kinda clunky. His legs look a bit too far away from his waist, and the reiver belly armor joints don't help.
GaroRobe wrote: Something feels off about him. He just looks kinda clunky. His legs look a bit too far away from his waist, and the reiver belly armor joints don't help.
I think the servo skull is messing with his profile a bit: moving it to another location on the model might help. But I'm not entirely convinced either.
Those worrying he might be Ultras-specific can relax though, as all Chapter iconography is clearly painted on, and not molded.
Kirasu wrote: Space marine crop tops! I'll never understand the move away from functional military armor/uniforms for newer models.
Reivers are supposed to field a 'stripped down' version of the Mark X armor. It's like how Aggressors are wearing Mark X but with more plating or Inceptors have the helm and leg boosters.
Rather than a BAJILLION different new armor Marks, they just have the Mark X but with different loadouts it seems.
Kirasu wrote: Space marine crop tops! I'll never understand the move away from functional military armor/uniforms for newer models.
Reivers are supposed to field a 'stripped down' version of the Mark X armor. It's like how Aggressors are wearing Mark X but with more plating or Inceptors have the helm and leg boosters.
Rather than a BAJILLION different new armor Marks, they just have the Mark X but with different loadouts it seems.
But it's not stripped down to do anything functional. Strap some baby booties to Gravis armor and you can deep strike with Inceptors. What exactly does Reiver armor do besides look incredibly silly? Still 3+ save. Their weapons are also just worse versions of intercessors (if you understand how the game works anyway).
Haighus wrote: I really like the Servo skull, and the bolt carbine is neat too.
Is there any functional difference between a bolt carbine and a boltgun?
Ruleswise, I think the Carbine and the Auto Boltrifle are the same? Same stats as the boltgun too but they're both Assault instead of Rapid Fire.
Ok, gotcha. Thanks! So more mobile than a traditional bolter, but otherwise the same. I was asking because they look almost indistinguishable from a normal boltgun. I suppose the increased mobility comes from being carried by beefier Primaris Marines fluffwise?
Kirasu wrote: Space marine crop tops! I'll never understand the move away from functional military armor/uniforms for newer models.
Reivers are supposed to field a 'stripped down' version of the Mark X armor. It's like how Aggressors are wearing Mark X but with more plating or Inceptors have the helm and leg boosters.
Rather than a BAJILLION different new armor Marks, they just have the Mark X but with different loadouts it seems.
But it's not stripped down to do anything functional. Strap some baby booties to Gravis armor and you can deep strike with Inceptors. What exactly does Reiver armor do besides look incredibly silly? Still 3+ save. Their weapons are also just worse versions of intercessors (if you understand how the game works anyway).
I don't understand why they still get the 3+ save either. I think the fluff is just there to make it so that there's a reason for people to understand why the units look different.
Kirasu wrote: Space marine crop tops! I'll never understand the move away from functional military armor/uniforms for newer models.
Reivers are supposed to field a 'stripped down' version of the Mark X armor. It's like how Aggressors are wearing Mark X but with more plating or Inceptors have the helm and leg boosters.
Rather than a BAJILLION different new armor Marks, they just have the Mark X but with different loadouts it seems.
But it's not stripped down to do anything functional. Strap some baby booties to Gravis armor and you can deep strike with Inceptors. What exactly does Reiver armor do besides look incredibly silly? Still 3+ save. Their weapons are also just worse versions of intercessors (if you understand how the game works anyway).
I don't understand why they still get the 3+ save either. I think the fluff is just there to make it so that there's a reason for people to understand why the units look different.
Isn't just likely to be a difference that is small enough to not be reflected on a D6? But would exist in the actual background. There is precedent for this- MkIII armour is supposed to be reinforced from the front, but has only ever conferred extra protection in the rules when used to represent hardened armour (which you don't have to use MkIII for, but could use any Mk).
GaroRobe wrote: Something feels off about him. He just looks kinda clunky. His legs look a bit too far away from his waist, and the reiver belly armor joints don't help.
Indeed, not sure what it is, but the whole just doesn’t quite come together.
I really hope that the fancy knife is a power sword (but it probably isn't.) I hate how the Primaris have better CC stats than normal marines, but they're usually wasted as they can't get any good melee weapons... or in some cases even bad melee weapons.
Interestingly enough this specific armor is called out in the article as "Phobos Armour".
Acheran is represented by a Captain in Phobos Armour, which is usable by any Space Marines Chapter along with the other Vanguard units in the set. We’ll have more details on Phobos armour along with loads of other information about Warhammer 40,000: Shadowspear over the coming days and weeks, so be sure to keep your auto-lenses or daemonically enhanced vision focused right here.
Kanluwen wrote: Interestingly enough this specific armor is called out in the article as "Phobos Armour".
Acheran is represented by a Captain in Phobos Armour, which is usable by any Space Marines Chapter along with the other Vanguard units in the set. We’ll have more details on Phobos armour along with loads of other information about Warhammer 40,000: Shadowspear over the coming days and weeks, so be sure to keep your auto-lenses or daemonically enhanced vision focused right here.
I thought that was already the description used for Reiver armour, along with Tacticus used by Intercessors, and Gravis armour?
Kanluwen wrote: Interestingly enough this specific armor is called out in the article as "Phobos Armour".
Acheran is represented by a Captain in Phobos Armour, which is usable by any Space Marines Chapter along with the other Vanguard units in the set. We’ll have more details on Phobos armour along with loads of other information about Warhammer 40,000: Shadowspear over the coming days and weeks, so be sure to keep your auto-lenses or daemonically enhanced vision focused right here.
I thought that was already the description used for Reiver armour, along with Tacticus used by Intercessors, and Gravis armour?
Apparently not. The Space Marines book has it listed as "Mark X Reiver Armour".
Intercessors, "many officers", and Helblasters use Tacticus Armour.
Aggressors have Gravis Armour.
Can't find exactly what the Inceptor stuff is called.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Latro_ wrote: wondered if it was the white cloak and white bg that made him look off... hmm
Honestly, it's the way that you're looking at it. Telion has a similar proportions issue thanks to his cape--certain angles look 'off' and you can't ever figure out exactly why.
It's a very busy model. The tassels on the braid are hanging the wrong way for gravity. So is the reliquary. The lower belt just seems weird. Reiver greaves always look weird to me. Silencers on bolters make no sense. Either the aerial on the pack is superfluous or the one attached to his bionic eye is.
Servo skulls never seem to work well on models because they always have to join the model in some awkward way.
I'm not sold on any of the primaris models we've seen so far in this release. But that's subjective opinion.
Hips look really wide. That combined with the bent legs making the legs look shorter than they probably are makes him look a little off. It's also very busy. Take off the servo skull and the thing dangling between his legs and that would help.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Hips look really wide. That combined with the bent legs making the legs look shorter than they probably are makes him look a little off. It's also very busy. Take off the servo skull and the thing dangling between his legs and that would help.
I'd prefer that GW stop shoehorning Servo Skulls onto their models. While it could be done well, it hasn't been done well yet.
Albino Squirrel wrote: Hips look really wide. That combined with the bent legs making the legs look shorter than they probably are makes him look a little off. It's also very busy. Take off the servo skull and the thing dangling between his legs and that would help.
Hips are ok. It’s the smaller Pauldrons (shoulder pads) that have changed the usual silhouette of a Marine.
All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
"Acheran is represented by a Captain in Phobos Armour, which is usable by many Space Marines Chapters along with the other Vanguard units in the set. We’ll have more details on Phobos armour along with loads of other information about Warhammer 40,000: Shadowspear over the coming days and weeks, so be sure to keep your auto-lenses or daemonically enhanced vision focused right here"
This tells me Acheran is not necessarily a special character and everyone will have access to a Captain in Phobos Armour. Which will be annoying if his helmet is molded into his hip
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
What new stuff? He's just a Reiver with a non-standard weapon loadout really (but not new tech).
GaroRobe wrote: Something feels off about him. He just looks kinda clunky. His legs look a bit too far away from his waist, and the reiver belly armor joints don't help.
Interesting that the gun he's got is called a bolt carbine, not a rifle. Carbines are what reivers use. If these sneaky-looking troop guys are using carbines then that's going to make them quite hard to justify, now that we have the beta bolter rules.
I think he looks ok. The helmet looks like it's a seperate piece, so you could probably swap that out, but the harder thing to change is his cloak, which curves around the helmet. It would look odd if the hat wasn't there. So I'd probably just build him with a different head if I wanted to change anything.
To be honest though the fact he doesn't have an obvious melee weapon (other than a knife) means I probably won't use him over my existing fist of vengeance captain. The sneaky librarian and lieutenant are more likely to see a gaming table.
Love the Primaris side more and more, Acheran looks amazing.
I hope the scale of the spider engine is smallish like the Nurgle demon engines since I really wanted to convert it to Nurgle. If its that BIG going to have to pass.
Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
You think that's power knife? It probably is just a regular knife.
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
That's not a Bolt Carbine. It looks like a Bolt Rifle with some form of a supresser on it. I am guessing it will end up being just a Master-Crafted bolt rifle.
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
That's not a Bolt Carbine. It looks like a Bolt Rifle with some form of a supresser on it. I am guessing it will end up being just a Master-Crafted bolt rifle.
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
That's not a Bolt Carbine. It looks like a Bolt Rifle with some form of a supresser on it. I am guessing it will end up being just a Master-Crafted bolt rifle.
I am fairly sure the article stated it was a master-crafted bolt carbine (with a suppressor for likely aesthetic reasons).
Apparently not. The Space Marines book has it listed as "Mark X Reiver Armour".
Perhaps they decided to rename it, as it would be somewhat confusing now than units other than Reivers are wearing it too?
Maybe--or maybe they decided that the Reiver Armour is its own specialized version of Phobos Armour? The Reivers do have the vocalizer bit after all.
It would depend entirely upon how long they've been planning these, and I'm thinking that they planned these the same time as the rest.
Originally the Reiver Armor was only weared by Reivers but not that is gonna be used by many other models I assume they changed his name to make it more generic.
Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
That's not a Bolt Carbine. It looks like a Bolt Rifle with some form of a supresser on it. I am guessing it will end up being just a Master-Crafted bolt rifle.
Xenomancers wrote: Ahhh A revier captain....Talk about worthless. Bolt Carbine? ARE YOU SERIOUS? You wonder why marines suck - it's reason like this. An HQ probably about 80 points plus that does nothing but shoot a 2 str 4 shots and has a power knife....
That's not a Bolt Carbine. It looks like a Bolt Rifle with some form of a supresser on it. I am guessing it will end up being just a Master-Crafted bolt rifle.
I am fairly sure the article stated it was a master-crafted bolt carbine (with a suppressor for likely aesthetic reasons).
I see that now. So it is the exact same thing as a MC Auto Bolt Rifle. Lame.
Yeah, what exciting new options for primaris space marine enthusiasts.
A librarian with a force sword and bolt pistol.
A captain with a MC bolt weapon and power sword.
A troop unit in power armor armed with bolt weapons.
What exciting new tactical flexibility and options this adds to the primaris space marine range! Primaris marine players, how will this change your lists - are you super psyched to have all these new unit choices?
fraser1191 wrote: Ugh if the vanguard troops have a Bolt carbine standard then why bother? If you want that take intercessors with their auto bolt rifle.
I really hope they have something to make them worthwhile
They're sneaky.
Best case scenario this phobos captain guy give access to a vanguard formation or some rules that permit modified deployment or something like. Worst case scenario it's an army of reivers and they're useless.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
The explosive report of a boltgun's ammunition wouldn't be that loud in the first place, its roughly a 20mm cartridge and the fluff has long mentioned different payloads for the Suppressed Boltguns.
fraser1191 wrote: Ugh if the vanguard troops have a Bolt carbine standard then why bother? If you want that take intercessors with their auto bolt rifle.
I really hope they have something to make them worthwhile
They're sneaky.
Best case scenario this phobos captain guy give access to a vanguard formation or some rules that permit modified deployment or something like. Worst case scenario it's an army of reivers and they're useless.
IIRC there is nothing different about reiver armor vs regular armor right now, except for the morale rule. Movement and durability wise they're the same as normal primaris, right?
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, what exciting new options for primaris space marine enthusiasts.
A librarian with a force sword and bolt pistol.
A captain with a MC bolt weapon and power sword.
A troop unit in power armor armed with bolt weapons.
What exciting new tactical flexibility and options this adds to the primaris space marine range! Primaris marine players, how will this change your lists - are you super psyched to have all these new unit choices?
I just don't understand that. Why don't they use all those new models to give the units more options?
GW: "But if we give this Librarian a power axe then people that buys the other librarian will need to make a conversion"... no! You'll selll them TWO librarians! (Or not, but many people would buy the different models to have all the weapon options)
fraser1191 wrote: Ugh if the vanguard troops have a Bolt carbine standard then why bother? If you want that take intercessors with their auto bolt rifle.
I really hope they have something to make them worthwhile
They're sneaky.
Best case scenario this phobos captain guy give access to a vanguard formation or some rules that permit modified deployment or something like. Worst case scenario it's an army of reivers and they're useless.
IIRC there is nothing different about reiver armor vs regular armor right now, except for the morale rule. Movement and durability wise they're the same as normal primaris, right?
Only thing is reiver have access to grav-chutes and grapnel launcher. That's it.
This guy is a glorified Lieutenant model. He literally brings nothing new to the table short of having a cloak. And from what it looks like the cloak is going to cost him his ability to have an Iron Halo. Pointless model.
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"
I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?
casvalremdeikun wrote: This guy is a glorified Lieutenant model. He literally brings nothing new to the table short of having a cloak. And from what it looks like the cloak is going to cost him his ability to have an Iron Halo. Pointless model.
Pssst. Maybe wait for a data sheet before going full panic mode.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
The explosive report of a boltgun's ammunition wouldn't be that loud in the first place, its roughly a 20mm cartridge and the fluff has long mentioned different payloads for the Suppressed Boltguns.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are (like the Welrod and DeLisle carbine). Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
fraser1191 wrote: Ugh if the vanguard troops have a Bolt carbine standard then why bother? If you want that take intercessors with their auto bolt rifle.
I really hope they have something to make them worthwhile
They're sneaky.
Best case scenario this phobos captain guy give access to a vanguard formation or some rules that permit modified deployment or something like. Worst case scenario it's an army of reivers and they're useless.
IIRC there is nothing different about reiver armor vs regular armor right now, except for the morale rule. Movement and durability wise they're the same as normal primaris, right?
Only thing is reiver have access to grav-chutes and grapnel launcher. That's it.
Best case scenario they can deploy like scouts with a buffed carbine
Worst case they are intercessors with "auto bolt rifles" that can take grav chutes
the_scotsman wrote: Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
The explosive report of a boltgun's ammunition wouldn't be that loud in the first place, its roughly a 20mm cartridge and the fluff has long mentioned different payloads for the Suppressed Boltguns.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are. Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
To add to that, it's also for hearing protection for the firer.
casvalremdeikun wrote: This guy is a glorified Lieutenant model. He literally brings nothing new to the table short of having a cloak. And from what it looks like the cloak is going to cost him his ability to have an Iron Halo. Pointless model.
The Iron Halo is on the servitor that hangs around I think.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
The explosive report of a boltgun's ammunition wouldn't be that loud in the first place, its roughly a 20mm cartridge and the fluff has long mentioned different payloads for the Suppressed Boltguns.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are (like the Welrod and DeLisle carbine). Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, from the image shown I don't see any space marines equipped with anything but boltguns.
So this is going to be a "tactically flexible" commando unit of super duper specialists...armed with all the variation of necron warriors. And presumably, with identical weaponry to another unit that the primaris marines already have....
Yikers.
Add onto that the special bonus of Captain Mcbeardenstein having a silenced boltgun. You know, a boltgun, the weapon that features miniature RPGs as ammunition.
"now, I shall stealthily take down this enemy patrol"
*thwp thwp thwp*
*BOOM BOOM BOOM*
*every enemy within a 40 mile radius hears the explosions of detonating bolt rounds, immediately on alert*
The explosive report of a boltgun's ammunition wouldn't be that loud in the first place, its roughly a 20mm cartridge and the fluff has long mentioned different payloads for the Suppressed Boltguns.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are. Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
To add to that, it's also for hearing protection for the firer.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are. Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
To add to that, it's also for hearing protection for the firer.
Also true, but I thought this bit was less relevant to Marines with their enhanced biology and autosenses. Important for unaugmented humans though!
casvalremdeikun wrote: This guy is a glorified Lieutenant model. He literally brings nothing new to the table short of having a cloak. And from what it looks like the cloak is going to cost him his ability to have an Iron Halo. Pointless model.
The Iron Halo is on the servitor that hangs around I think.
That would be stupid and awesome at the same time.
casvalremdeikun wrote: This guy is a glorified Lieutenant model. He literally brings nothing new to the table short of having a cloak. And from what it looks like the cloak is going to cost him his ability to have an Iron Halo. Pointless model.
The Iron Halo is on the servitor that hangs around I think.
That would be stupid and awesome at the same time.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are. Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
To add to that, it's also for hearing protection for the firer.
Also true, but I thought this bit was less relevant to Marines with their enhanced biology and autosenses. Important for unaugmented humans though!
Wouldn't enhanced senses make them even more susceptible to hearing damage? But, I do bet the guard appreciate it!
So basically we've got the same situation for the marines as for the CSM: we can see models but we won't know if they're worth having until we see rules.
So, basically the same situation as every release, ever. You'd think we'd be used to this by now!
My prediction: some of the new stuff will be rubbish. Only a tiny minority of it is likely to be used by competitive players. There'll be units that don't really have a compelling reason to exist - like reivers today.
This is fine. It's just the way it is. At least nowadays GW listens to feedback and fixes points values. So if it's not right on release day things ought ot improve over time.
For the Primaris characters I think that if the lieutenant and librarian bring useful attributes then they could be worth bringing. They are equipped the same as existing guys so their special rules could justify including them. At least they aren't worse than what we already have.
It's just the captain whose profile is a bit wasted if he's only got a knife. Even he might potentially have some kind of special rule that makes him worthwhile, like say if he's got a buff to hand out.
Also, suppressed guns are not silent, outside a handful of extremely specialised weapons that almost are. Suppressing a weapon does not make it so a soldier can pick off sentries without being detected. It means their own location remains harder to determine through reduced muzzle flash and lower noise. Enemies in the area will still be alerted.
To add to that, it's also for hearing protection for the firer.
Also true, but I thought this bit was less relevant to Marines with their enhanced biology and autosenses. Important for unaugmented humans though!
Wouldn't enhanced senses make them even more susceptible to hearing damage? But, I do bet the guard appreciate it!
I was more thinking their enhanced healing capabilities probably make long-term neurological damage of the ear a non-issue. Or most degenerative conditions for that matter.
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Alex_85 wrote: He will have some sort of Invuln for sure.
you would think Lieutenants and Librarians would as well but they don't so it's not totally outside the realm of possibility that he doesn't have one.
Yeah, it is a bit odd when every Imperial Guard officer of the rank of Captain and above gets a refractor field. If refractor fields are so abundant, Marine Lieutenants should definitely get them. To be honest, every single Marine should get them if they are that common. There are something like 1 million Marines total, there will be far more IG officers of Captain and above.
Alex_85 wrote: He will have some sort of Invuln for sure.
you would think Lieutenants and Librarians would as well but they don't so it's not totally outside the realm of possibility that he doesn't have one.
He'd be the only Captain with out one, killing the chance people ever take him.
Anyway, the thing to complain about, as Crimson Fist players, is that he has a Master Crafted Bolt Carbine, so he can't take the Crimson Fist relic Bolter.
Alex_85 wrote: He will have some sort of Invuln for sure.
you would think Lieutenants and Librarians would as well but they don't so it's not totally outside the realm of possibility that he doesn't have one.
He'd be the only Captain with out one, killing the chance people ever take him.
Anyway, the thing to complain about, as Crimson Fist players, is that he has a Master Crafted Bolt Carbine, so he can't take the Crimson Fist relic Bolter.
yeah that is pretty crappy too. But I give the Relic Bolter to an ancient anyway.
I anyone else LOL'ing at the descriptions of Primaris Vanguard Marines from the Community article?
First, Vanguard Primaris Marines—not to be confused with "Vanguard Veterans" No, no, completely different! THESE marines are the Primar-est marines to ever lead from the tippity tip of "the tip of the spear" unlike others who lead or have lead before (scouts, vanguard, reivers, et al). THESE guys lead the charge while your opponent is still opening his carry case.
"Vanguard Space Marines are elite reconnaissance troops, trained to operate without support across the deadliest frontiers of the galaxy."
OK, Fair enough...
Ranging far ahead of their battle-brothers, they drop behind enemy lines, deep into hostile territory. Once in position, they launch a campaign of total devastation against the enemy. Every component of the opposing war machine is taken apart piece by piece – communications are severed, key commanders assassinated, supply caches demolished and morale drained away by unrelenting terror-strikes. When the enemy are all but beaten, the Vanguard Space Marines emerge from the shadows to deliver the killing strike.
So, um...where does the recon part come in?
I imagine Captain Acheran swings by Marneus Calgar's field office after Nemendghast: Acheran: Heeeey Marnie!
Calgar: Oh hey man! I didn't hear you come in—always the sneaky one!
Acheran: Right, so you know that planet you asked us to investigate to see if the enemy was there?
Calgar: Yeah?
Acheran: They aren't. I mean, they WERE there, but just not any more cuz we recon'ed them to death.
Calgar:Thanks Archie. You always give the best intel. Keep up the good work!
Also Captain Acheran is "A modest and taciturn commander" They totally nailed his essence with the mini because he looks super-chill. I bet he shouts like that and gestures dramatically during most of his covert "recon" missions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still looking forward to all of this, but you can't help but see the humor here...
Nostromodamus wrote: In the grim darkness of the far future there are only ported supressors attached to weapons that fire rockets...
Pretty sure that at one point they've talked about Stalker patterns actually having their own specialized rounds that are effectively just solid slugs.
Brother Xeones wrote:So, um...where does the recon part come in?
Everything that is described there would lend itself to a commando unit that also engages in reconnaissance. It's just recon by force--they pick their own targets and handle them, or they pass it to someone else who can.
Why won't they give us options with these characters.... Emperor be praised. We don't want another static mini, give us a multipart kit and give us options to put a freaking helmet on.
keep in mind guys this isn't a new unit, but it's a new mini. that means all the war gear will be "in addition to what the captain has now" so if the captain has a reiver style knife? that means we will have the option to take a combat knife over a power sword. This is a good thing as a combat knife costs 0 points and a lot of the time captains are used to hold down a gunline. I GARENTEE we'll see people using this option.
Secondly, the cloak is proably a cameo cloak. another option the captain will get. being pessimiatic you may have to trade out an iron Halo for it. I suspect it'd be a poor trade but perhaps the number crunches are gonna be able to figure out uses I'm not seeing.
So yeah, it would be nice if this guy had a MC bolt rifle, but even without I am definatly seeing new options for Primaris captains on this mini
Mandragola wrote: So basically we've got the same situation for the marines as for the CSM: we can see models but we won't know if they're worth having until we see rules.
So, basically the same situation as every release, ever. You'd think we'd be used to this by now!
My prediction: some of the new stuff will be rubbish. Only a tiny minority of it is likely to be used by competitive players. There'll be units that don't really have a compelling reason to exist - like reivers today.
This is fine. It's just the way it is. At least nowadays GW listens to feedback and fixes points values. So if it's not right on release day things ought ot improve over time.
For the Primaris characters I think that if the lieutenant and librarian bring useful attributes then they could be worth bringing. They are equipped the same as existing guys so their special rules could justify including them. At least they aren't worse than what we already have.
It's just the captain whose profile is a bit wasted if he's only got a knife. Even he might potentially have some kind of special rule that makes him worthwhile, like say if he's got a buff to hand out.
No doubt it's reroll 1's. Something the army lacks at it's core between Chapter masters/ and primarchs / and stratagems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NAVARRO wrote: He could come with a pocket knife and a nerd gun for all I care, cool model is cool.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind guys this isn't a new unit, but it's a new mini. that means all the war gear will be "in addition to what the captain has now" so if the captain has a reiver style knife? that means we will have the option to take a combat knife over a power sword. This is a good thing as a combat knife costs 0 points and a lot of the time captains are used to hold down a gunline. I GARENTEE we'll see people using this option.
Secondly, the cloak is proably a cameo cloak. another option the captain will get. being pessimiatic you may have to trade out an iron Halo for it. I suspect it'd be a poor trade but perhaps the number crunches are gonna be able to figure out uses I'm not seeing.
So yeah, it would be nice if this guy had a MC bolt rifle, but even without I am definatly seeing new options for Primaris captains on this mini
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but no. The "captain" won't get that in addition to what he already has.
They've gone out of their way to make specific profiles for the different Armor types for Primaris. They specifically noted this is a Captain in Phobos Armor.
Man oh man I dislike that armor..... it just doesn’t feel space marine enough to me. I was hoping Reivers would be the only transgressors. I want the box, but I imagine the loyalist side will be the harder side to sell off on eBay.
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind guys this isn't a new unit, but it's a new mini. that means all the war gear will be "in addition to what the captain has now" so if the captain has a reiver style knife? that means we will have the option to take a combat knife over a power sword. This is a good thing as a combat knife costs 0 points and a lot of the time captains are used to hold down a gunline. I GARENTEE we'll see people using this option.
Secondly, the cloak is proably a cameo cloak. another option the captain will get. being pessimiatic you may have to trade out an iron Halo for it. I suspect it'd be a poor trade but perhaps the number crunches are gonna be able to figure out uses I'm not seeing.
So yeah, it would be nice if this guy had a MC bolt rifle, but even without I am definatly seeing new options for Primaris captains on this mini
I'm pretty sure the combat knife will be available only to phobos armored captain.
Nostromodamus wrote: In the grim darkness of the far future there are only ported supressors attached to weapons that fire rockets...
Why does that bother you?
It's a galaxy filled with:
60 Million year old murder robots
Literal Gods and Demons
Magic Space Elves
Literal Nazi Commies
If you're looking at this from a "realistic" perspective, you're in the wrong game my friend.
Did I say it bothered me?
As a gun nut I love this stuff because it highlights the madness of technology in 40k. Even something as mundane as a bolt weapon has pointless bits on it because to alter the design would be heretical.
Talk of a double edged blade, keeping the way open, and the sacred blood of Terra.
Combined with the info on pg91 of Vigilus part 1 about the underground Blackstone pylons. I think we could be looking at a sequel campaign based around Sangua Terra in the future
I LOVE IT.
Been keeping an eager eye on the Shadowspear models, looked at using them to build up my 10th Company, and these guys so far are looking excellent for that.
I've already built a "Captain" for them, also based off of the Reiver body, but I may just have to demote him to being one of the Lieutenant of 10th Company, this guy does look very good! Not over fond of the servo-skull (just looks like it'll be awkward to transport) and the reliquary on his waist, but I love the rest.
Can't say I really care about the gameplay, and I'm disappointed by how many people seem to think he's worthless because his stats might be poor.
I was planning on buying the whole box, and selling off the CSM bits (depends on how many there are, if there's too many, I'll probably pass on doing them myself), but I might just be able to nab a whole set of the Primaris models from people reselling them, if they're that unpopular apparently!
Brother Xeones wrote:So, um...where does the recon part come in?
Everything that is described there would lend itself to a commando unit that also engages in reconnaissance. It's just recon by force--they pick their own targets and handle them, or they pass it to someone else who can.
I'm familiar with the concept of reconnaissance in force—but what I'm saying is that there's not actually any mention of said intel gathering. No discussion of "preparing the way for the main Space Marine force" no "Marked for Death" feeling from any of what they said. They don't actually say anything other than briefly mentioning "reconnaissance" and something about the "tip of the spear". Presumably, if you get poked with the tip of the spear, the rest of the spear is set to follow. But instead all we really get is "We work alone—without aid from the main force, and we use isometric warefare techniques and terror tactics to systematically take the enemy down piece by piece from the shadows before emerging to perform the killing blow". That's not Recon—that's describing Nightlords without the ridiculous bat wing hats.
He'd be the only Captain with out one, killing the chance people ever take him.
You never know, LIas Issodon, a Chapter Master doesn't have one! Granted, that's probably because FW rules team is useless.
Lias NEVER had the Iron Halo as far as I know, even when he was first introduced.
He's always had the equivalent of a bonus to cover saves (Shrouded or Stealth last edition, I think he had Shrouded) with his 2+. This edition he gets sorta the same bonus. He was designed that way on purpose if you hadn't noticed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: Why won't they give us options with these characters.... Emperor be praised. We don't want another static mini, give us a multipart kit and give us options to put a freaking helmet on.
I will say this is the thing that annoys me more than anything else in GW's design team. I HATE bare heads and always have. When it was revealed Roboute had a helmet option, that shot my 0% chance of buying him in the future to a solid "maybe near the end of 2019 or beginning of 2020".
I would much prefer the captain guy with a helmet on. Unfortunately he seems to have his helmet sheathed on his back. Maybe you can clip that off and find a spare head for him somewhere.
I do like the model, but he is described as calm and collected, even under enemy fire and the chaos of a battlefield, but he stands there screaming and pointing. I would have preferred him with a pose like this:
Anyway, he's not terrible, I do the model overall. Rules I don't really mind too much. I just want them for Kill Team. If they get their own rules, great! If not, I'll just play them as Intercessors and Reivers.
The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
One, hurrah for Captain pointing marine #overflow_memory_value_lost.
Two, the Vanguard methodology seems... exactly like how marines are canonically supposed to fight given their numbers limitation. Limited support is a 'well, obviously' as proper support would involved Guard regiments, artillery and armor as well as Navy fighters and/or bombardments.
Three, model itself is... Eh. Gaps in the armor seem excessive, and yeah, Helmet. The servo skull as a jack-in-the-box for his knee and half-cloak that can't possibly fit over his backpack do the model no favors.
The glimpses of the librarian were way more impressive than 'Rifle Captain the Ineffectual.' title change possible if he has magic bullets that change his to wound and AP numbers.
Crimson wrote: The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
Incessant whining? Geez, it's just that some of us prefer our soldiers with helmets. Especially "tactical" marines like these. It was even referenced in one of the short stories:
‘Arcturos three down,’ Gerio said into his vox, secure in the knowledge that not a whisper of sound would escape his skull-faced helm.
Stuff like that is cool to me. Exposing your head and shouting instead of calmly and quietly issuing orders seems silly, more so when these guys are said to work quite the opposite way to regular marines, with their zealous screaming etc.
For the briefest of seconds, I thought you were posting some new artwork from the set and I thought "Chaos Primaris!?!?! It's finally happening!!" But then I realized that's just a Heresy era AL dude and was disappointed
Crimson wrote: The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
At least all the "helmetless" Primaris at least have the helmet at their hip, as if they just took it off for a moment and could very well put it back on once the fire-fight starts.
Incessant whining? Geez, it's just that some of us prefer our soldiers with helmets.
It is incessant because every time there is a model without a helmet released there is bunch of people complaining about it, like a clockwork. GW has released models without helmets for thirty years, they're not gonna stop. Deal with it.
For the briefest of seconds, I thought you were posting some new artwork from the set and I thought "Chaos Primaris!?!?! It's finally happening!!"
But then I realized that's just a Heresy era AL dude and was disappointed
I don't think it's Heresy era. AFAIK the Alpha Legion didn't have Chaos iconography until quite much later. Some still don't. Anyway, it's one of my favourite pieces of artwork for the Alpha Legion, it captures their essence very well. Hope to see some stuff like this for the Vanguard Primaris!
Incessant whining? Geez, it's just that some of us prefer our soldiers with helmets.
It is incessant because every time there is a model without a helmet released there is bunch of people complaining about it, like a clockwork. GW has released models without helmets for thirty years, they're not gonna stop. Deal with it.
And people will keep having opinions you don't like hearing, they're not gonna stop either. No need to be rude.
Galef wrote: For the briefest of seconds, I thought you were posting some new artwork from the set and I thought "Chaos Primaris!?!?! It's finally happening!!"
But then I realized that's just a Heresy era AL dude and was disappointed
-
I had the opposite happen. "Crap... they're making chaos primaris!" when I saw the helmet and then scanned further down the pic and breathed a sigh of relief that it's a Mk IV iirc.
Crimson wrote: The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
try being in the actual Army and taking your helmet off when there are live rounds flying and see how that works out for you. If you don't get shot in the head your ass will get tackled to the ground by literally everyone surrounding you.
Personally I'm not bothered by the helmets being off because it's something I can correct fairly easily I just wish they would make the option on the kit always there. I've converted several different models with the helmet on the hip into helmeted models. It's actually a pretty easy thing to do even if it's a pewter model (the chaplain on a bike was a challenge but not impossible}. this model seems like it's going to be fairly easy to accomplish that with I just hate that I even have to do it. there is more than likely going to be extra helmets for me to work with including one that resembles the helmet he has though.
Games Workshop was doing a really good job at one point of having options for helmeted and unhelmeted models on the sprue. I just hate that they've taken a step back.
Games Workshop was doing a really good job at one point of having options for helmeted and unhelmeted models on the sprue. I just hate that they've taken a step back.
Well we haven't seen the sprues yet, so there is still a chance he has the option. That said, unless the bionic eye is detachable there is no way the helmet on his belt would fit him anyway.
alleus wrote:Incessant whining? Geez, it's just that some of us prefer our soldiers with helmets. Especially "tactical" marines like these. It was even referenced in one of the short stories:
‘Arcturos three down,’ Gerio said into his vox, secure in the knowledge that not a whisper of sound would escape his skull-faced helm.
It's good then that he still has his helmet on his person, instead of the decades of sculpts when they haven't had even that.
Stuff like that is cool to me. Exposing your head and shouting instead of calmly and quietly issuing orders seems silly, more so when these guys are said to work quite the opposite way to regular marines, with their zealous screaming etc.
I don't really see the impression of him "shouting" personally - rather more of a snarl than a shout.
Besides, we all know why GW do it - to showcase their painting, sculpting, and to make their leaders stand out with more individuality.
Games Workshop was doing a really good job at one point of having options for helmeted and unhelmeted models on the sprue. I just hate that they've taken a step back.
Well we haven't seen the sprues yet, so there is still a chance he has the option. That said, unless the bionic eye is detachable there is no way the helmet on his belt would fit him anyway.
someone pointed out earlier that his cloak is modeled to fit around his helmet so it's unlikely that he has a helmeted head but I agree it's still possible. I'm sure I could figure out something to put there that would fit underneath that cloak to simulate the ripple that the helmet leaves. I don't quite know offhand what that would be. I worry that the helmet will be molded to the cloak. That significantly increases the difficulty of removing it without wrecking the model. be it that I probably won't be using this guy in the first place it's going to just be a matter of getting him a head that doesn't look is silly to me. you'll get one of the unhelmeted heads from the Imperial Fists upgrade sprue.
I'm a little bit disappointed in the wording of the Liberator Strike Force because all these dudes rocking Reiver armor could have theoretically benefited from the Detachment if it said Reivers. I guess if the keyword is still there they could.
Same thing happens in movies. Heroes come in wearing masks or helmets, there's a pause in action so headgear comes off, then the helmet is left behind. It's for individuality and expression.
I prefer helmets myself but I get why it's done. His model looks very easy to convert if it's moulded that way, but I hope the helmet option exists.
Brother Xeones wrote: I'm familiar with the concept of reconnaissance in force—but what I'm saying is that there's not actually any mention of said intel gathering. No discussion of "preparing the way for the main Space Marine force" no "Marked for Death" feeling from any of what they said. They don't actually say anything other than briefly mentioning "reconnaissance" and something about the "tip of the spear". Presumably, if you get poked with the tip of the spear, the rest of the spear is set to follow. But instead all we really get is "We work alone—without aid from the main force, and we use isometric warefare techniques and terror tactics to systematically take the enemy down piece by piece from the shadows before emerging to perform the killing blow". That's not Recon—that's describing Nightlords without the ridiculous bat wing hats.
No, that's pretty much describing real life spetsnaz. Scouts from 10th company do light recon, these guys do recon by force destroying identified targets and assaulting positions of potential or unknown marks, main SM force smashes enemy bereft of air/artillery support, logistics, and command structures destroyed by vanguard. What's the problem with that again? Sure, spetsnaz did recon too but you simply don't waste time of elite assault units doing tasks that can be done by other assets of overall commander but you tell them to do stuff they were meant for.
As a gun nut I love this stuff because it highlights the madness of technology in 40k. Even something as mundane as a bolt weapon has pointless bits on it because to alter the design would be heretical.
"Gun nut"? Gee, if only there were weapons like that in real life used by recon forces...
Crimson wrote: The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
Yeah, it's not like last war where people tried to go without before being plainly shown how utterly stupid not wearing a helmet is ended over a century ago now... Waitamoment
That Captain should be setting the standard. This guy doesn't wear a helmet or shave, who knows what else he is doing? Maybe this lack of discipline is the REAL reason the Shadowspear got wiped out!
I definitely prefer the helmet. Hopefully Abaddon will have the option.
Still interested in the set, but I'm not too enthused by this guy or the Posessed guy from yesterday. A shorter hype cycle with more shown at once might be a better way to go in the future...
For some reason comparing Vanguard Marines to Spetsnazs makes… sense if going by job description.
Although I seriously wonder how Marine Chapters are now organized when it seems that these Vanguard marines are from 2nd Company:
The Vanguard Space Marines of Strike Force Shadowspear hail from the Ultramarines 2nd Company and fought with distinguished honour alongside Roboute Guilliman himself at the forefront of the Indomitus Crusade.
casvalremdeikun wrote: try being in the actual Army and taking your helmet off when there are live rounds flying and see how that works out for you. If you don't get shot in the head your ass will get tackled to the ground by literally everyone surrounding you.
I certainly remember that the next time I'm in a real army, dropping from the orbit to fight the psychic space fungi with my chainsaw!
Once again, these thing do no make headshot or headblows not happen, nor do they make heads proof agaisnt those things.
Edit: For that matter, where are my Guardsmen beating everything to death using Eartshaker cannons as a hammer, there are demons in the universe after all, so there should be no issues.
They make heroes without helmets because they look more heroic and recognizable when you can see their face, it has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting realism... same reason they do tons of other similar stuff throughout all their ranges. They will always go for rule of cool over realism and you shouldn't expect otherwise. The answer to the question "But they would shoot him in the head, wouldn't they?" is always "who gives a gak, he looks cooler before he dies"
I really hope we have more than just elite choices for the primaris.
It would be helpful if we had more options currently.
so far we have a lot of things that could potentially happen.
The chaos group looks interesting, as they seem to have a troop choice, an elite choice (possessed), heavy support (venom crawler and obliterator), and an HQ choice.
I hope the marines get the same force chart. Or some fast attack options and heavy support. We got enough elite choices as is.
Bobthehero wrote: Once again, these thing do no make headshot or headblows not happen, nor do they make heads proof agaisnt those things.
The point is that this whole universe is based on style over realism. Do you think that a chainsword is practical weapon? It isn't, but it looks cool. Similarly a grizzled veteran marine shouting without a helmet looks cool. If you care about what would be realistic or practical, you're in the wrong franchise to begin with.
Bobthehero wrote: Once again, these thing do no make headshot or headblows not happen, nor do they make heads proof agaisnt those things.
The point is that this whole universe is based on style over realism. Do you think that a chainsword is practical weapon? It isn't, but it looks cool. Similarly a grizzled veteran marine shouting without a helmet looks cool. If you care about what would be realistic or practical, you're in the wrong franchise to begin with.
Perhaps I think helmeted heroes are cooler?
And this sort of ''if yoiu don't like this thing out of the whole universe might mean you're in the wrong franchise'' kind of line gets old after a while. There are things I like about 40k and some I don't.
Todays Deamon Rumor Engine post would seem to indicate that the Deamon Engine gave its last leak before being purged. It was a pretty nifty looking Lighting Claw esk gauntlet.
I wonder if we will see an Imperial Rumor engine take over tomorrow, or if they will start to spill the beans on the whole boxset as a whole?
Todays Deamon Rumor Engine post would seem to indicate that the Deamon Engine gave its last leak before being purged. It was a pretty nifty looking Lighting Claw esk gauntlet.
I wonder if we will see an Imperial Rumor engine take over tomorrow, or if they will start to spill the beans on the whole boxset as a whole?
So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Slowroll wrote: That Captain should be setting the standard. This guy doesn't wear a helmet or shave, who knows what else he is doing? Maybe this lack of discipline is the REAL reason the Shadowspear got wiped out!
I definitely prefer the helmet. Hopefully Abaddon will have the option.
Still interested in the set, but I'm not too enthused by this guy or the Posessed guy from yesterday. A shorter hype cycle with more shown at once might be a better way to go in the future...
He was probably to busy too call in an orbital strike because he had his hands in his pockets! The enemy found him because his socks didn't match his phobos armour!
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Bobthehero wrote: Once again, these thing do no make headshot or headblows not happen, nor do they make heads proof agaisnt those things.
Edit: For that matter, where are my Guardsmen beating everything to death using Eartshaker cannons as a hammer, there are demons in the universe after all, so there should be no issues.
Exactly. While I like unhelmeted minis, I can understand why some don't like them. And pointing out that "it's a fictionnal world" is an extremely weak counter-argument
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Spoiler:
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Did you happen to see any pics of the fig or new artwork of Abaddon in the rules or possible fluff booklet?
JohnnyHell wrote: The only helmet options Abaddon will have are what colours to paint the helmets impaled on his trophy rack.
There will be zero chance you can make a helmeted version of Abaddon from the sprue. Wishing for one is setting oneself up for disappointment.
And yet Marneus Calgar has a helmeted option.
Of course Abaddon has a terminator armour so that is different but I woulnd't be that sure. (Of course I'm not expecting him to have a helmet, unlike the future primaris Azrael, that I really expect to have the option to have the winged helmet on)
JohnnyHell wrote: The only helmet options Abaddon will have are what colours to paint the helmets impaled on his trophy rack.
There will be zero chance you can make a helmeted version of Abaddon from the sprue. Wishing for one is setting oneself up for disappointment.
And yet Marneus Calgar has a helmeted option.
Of course Abaddon has a terminator armour so that is different but I woulnd't be that sure. (Of course I'm not expecting him to have a helmet, unlike the future primaris Azrael, that I really expect to have the option to have the winged helmet on)
Marneus isn't famous for his haircut (or lack there of). The top knot is, for better or worse, one of Abby's defining visual features and I sincerely doubt they'd cover it up.
Bobthehero wrote: Once again, these thing do no make headshot or headblows not happen, nor do they make heads proof agaisnt those things.
Edit: For that matter, where are my Guardsmen beating everything to death using Eartshaker cannons as a hammer, there are demons in the universe after all, so there should be no issues.
Exactly. While I like unhelmeted minis, I can understand why some don't like them. And pointing out that "it's a fictionnal world" is an extremely weak counter-argument
I dunno, a lot of people seem to not understand that their entire hobby is them interacting with art. Thus the needs of people interacting with art trump military autism, gun nut autism or any other brand of specialist subject pedantry.
There is no man fighting on a battlefield, ducking live fire. There's a small sculpture and a sculptor trying to convince you to invest yourself into his work.
Hotrod wrote: Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
So, 3 CSM characters, 10 CSM, 3 oblits, and a tank vs 3 SM characters and 11 SM? Isn't that hilariously one-sided match? Unless there are multiple SM squads in the box?
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Spoiler:
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Did you happen to see any pics of the fig or new artwork of Abaddon in the rules or possible fluff booklet?
Unfortunately not, no. The only stuff I got to see were pictures of the actual datasheets. It seems that Abaddon won't be in the box itself.
JohnnyHell wrote: The only helmet options Abaddon will have are what colours to paint the helmets impaled on his trophy rack.
There will be zero chance you can make a helmeted version of Abaddon from the sprue. Wishing for one is setting oneself up for disappointment.
And yet Marneus Calgar has a helmeted option.
Of course Abaddon has a terminator armour so that is different but I woulnd't be that sure. (Of course I'm not expecting him to have a helmet, unlike the future primaris Azrael, that I really expect to have the option to have the winged helmet on)
Abaddon has the mark of chaos ascendant on his forehead. I doubt he's getting a helmet.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Hotrod, do the suppressor squads have any way to mitigate the -1 to hit they're going to get when they drop in with their grav chutes?
Also what's the breakdown in the box of the included Squads? Is it just one Squad of each?
No, but they DO have smoke launchers, which is interesting.
And yeah, it seems to just be a squad of each, just like any regular box set.
Pretty disappointing to see that the greater possessed are basically elite characters, rather than an upgraded version/replacement for the possessed unit. I don't think a +1S aura is gonna cut it, even if they are reasonably priced, since possessed's main issue has more to do with their random D3 attacks. It also looks like they won't have any options then. Will their weapons be the same as the possessed? I hope they at least have multiple damage on their weapons given their bulk.
Grimskul wrote: Pretty disappointing to see that the greater possessed are basically elite characters, rather than an upgraded version/replacement for the possessed unit. I don't think a +1S aura is gonna cut it, even if they are reasonably priced, since possessed's main issue has more to do with their random D3 attacks. It also looks like they won't have any options then. Will their weapons be the same as the possessed? I hope they at least have multiple damage on their weapons given their bulk.
Yeah, I'm disappointed as well. I was hoping for newer, better Possessed Marines (mainly as an excuse to buy some Gal Vorbak), but this is ok too, I guess. They have a Force Stave, interestingly enough. S+2, AP-1, D3 damage.
ph34r wrote: Primaris Possessed seems appropriate to me because fluff-wise they have been teasing chaos really wanting some of that sweet Primaris Marine action. It seems like a no-brainer that these would be Primaris-tier.
Also according to the fluff, Fabius Bile has technically had his hands on what in retrospect seems like Primaris bodies for quite a while now. Years before they showed up for the Imperials.
casvalremdeikun wrote: try being in the actual Army and taking your helmet off when there are live rounds flying and see how that works out for you. If you don't get shot in the head your ass will get tackled to the ground by literally everyone surrounding you.
Weird since helmets in war were only a thing since the First World War to protect you from--debris. There's a reason the French first used fireman's helmets. Modern helmets don't stop bullets either.
There is though a wargaming convention where personalities, even Sgts, are unhelmed so you know who the big mojos are. Please don't use the word reality in the same sentence as 40K. Thanks.
Will this box will be full on new monopose units with 'proper' squad boxs later?
Did you skip the whole pre n1600's period where metal helmets were sometimes the only metal armor some people could get?
And once again, if we can remove reality from 40k, where are my Guardsmen jumping in the air to go punch Ork spaceships? Or Eldars throwing suns at Tau who then swallow them. Its all dumb, but apparently its okay because reality shouldn't be mentionned in 40k.
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Spoiler:
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.
Conflicted about the idea that the chaos marines are mono-pose. My hope is that means they'll get a full kit later, or that the kit inside the box IS the full kit, but the Shadowspear rules are much like they were in Forgebane: two specific forces fighting against each other.
If they are mono-pose, and they get another kit on top of that, that would make for a lot of great variety and conversion opportunities. But if they're mono-pose and DON'T get another kit, then we have the Chaos Cultist issue all over again where they never get a proper multi-part kit and we have the same models across the world.
Ok so IF these rumours are true then I will hold off on any purchase of the chaos stuff, I have no interest in monopose models, the possessed IF true are also a no go for me, I want a proper possessed unit, not a couple of characters that buff a bad unit to be slightly less bad, the spider tanks sounds interesting, but again if its a QF kit I will wait for the multipart one.
That locked chaos marine squad loadout strongly implies that.
You mean the one that doesn't feature meltagun and heavy bolter, two weapons we know exist in the box seeing they were in promo video? That one?
Also, like I noted above, 14 SM vs 20 CSM when the latter have a tank and oblits makes me doubt the whole thing. Compared to Dark Imperium, CSM side is actually larger than DG was, while SM are actually much smaller, by 1.5 squads...
Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium
drbored wrote:Conflicted about the idea that the chaos marines are mono-pose. My hope is that means they'll get a full kit later, or that the kit inside the box IS the full kit, but the Shadowspear rules are much like they were in Forgebane: two specific forces fighting against each other.
If they are mono-pose, and they get another kit on top of that, that would make for a lot of great variety and conversion opportunities. But if they're mono-pose and DON'T get another kit, then we have the Chaos Cultist issue all over again where they never get a proper multi-part kit and we have the same models across the world.
Mantle wrote: Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium
You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said
You mean the one that doesn't feature meltagun and heavy bolter, two weapons we know exist in the box seeing they were in promo video? That one?
Also, like I noted above, 14 SM vs 20 CSM when the latter have a tank and oblits makes me doubt the whole thing. Compared to Dark Imperium, CSM side is actually larger than DG was, while SM are actually much smaller, by 1.5 squads...
I can only comment on the rumours we have. They obviously can be false, and considering that they're somewhat disappointing, I hope they are. But it is also possible that models in this box are monopose and there is a separate multipart release for some units, such as the CSM, which would explain the pictures.
Mantle wrote: Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium
You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said
They said it's a battlebox like all the others they've done. The twist is this time it's all new stuff. All the other battleboxes have had the full kits. I didn't buy forgebane but tooth and claw, wrath and rapture and carrion empire all had full ktis.
Hrmm. A lot of that sounds pretty downer. I really hate it when they make 10 wound models since it means the bare minimum for a degrading profile. +1 to summon rolls is so feeble I don't even know why one would write a rule like that.
I don't deeply object to the stat line or buffs provided by the G. Possessed. It means you can stack up to a +2 strength on a variety of things. It will depend on how fast they are. But if they're not going to be a full unit, then they hecken better have <character> otherwise they'll be trash. 1 unit of 2 that splits? That's really weird and I hope is nonsense.
As for the master of possession, I really hope that isn't all he is. That will be very disappointing.
It seems highly unlikely to me that if they would produced a new full multipart CSM kit, it would produce only one exact loadout for the squad. So either the rumours about the rules are wrong, or the CSM in the box are not a full multipart kit.
Mantle wrote: Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium
You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said
The original reveal though showed a meltagun CSM. This dude said they're stuck with a plasma gun. So either this dude is trolling, or he's wrong about the plasma gun, or he's wrong about them being monopose.
Also in the original picture, the Lt has grav chute spines on his backpack, which weren't mentioned in his rules. And an apothecary in a scout squad? Why them specifically? And preventing a unit from shooting until last? That makes no sense and if it were to prevent overwatch, wouldn't it just say that the enemy unit can't shoot in overwatch? Also 2 possessed even though only one has featured in all the art and reveals and trailers?
I dunno, seems sort of fishy to me. I know I'm nitpicking at some little things, and GW do weird things sometimes, so I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but I don't much believe this leak personally. Apologies to leaker if I'm wrong though.
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.
I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,
Ysclyth wrote: Can Thousand Sons or Death Guard take any of the new chaos units?
Most likely as allies, seeing as these units will likely not be in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons Codexes as they are already out, unless they add some little extra bit about other chaos factions being able to take them using the same points and datasheets, which I doubt?
Either way, we won't know for a while. There was another rumor that came up on 4chan. Not sure if it showed up here, but I'll post it just in case. It gives us some more information:
But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.
Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.
What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.
I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,
I'm just a new source, I'm actually surprised that I got this information! It's relatively local, actually, but I really can't say more than that.
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Does Obliterators have some changes to weapon? Does it still random profile shots or fixed weapons on model?
Actually, I just double checked and it seems that Obliterators have Assault 6 shots instead of Assault 4. But the profile is the same, S6+D3, APD3 and D3 damage.
Ysclyth wrote: Can Thousand Sons or Death Guard take any of the new chaos units?
Most likely as allies, seeing as these units will likely not be in the Death Guard or Thousand Sons Codexes as they are already out, unless they add some little extra bit about other chaos factions being able to take them using the same points and datasheets, which I doubt?
Either way, we won't know for a while. There was another rumor that came up on 4chan. Not sure if it showed up here, but I'll post it just in case. It gives us some more information:
Spoiler:
What does "Major Rework of the 40K setting" even mean?
But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.
Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.
My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.
Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.
dienekes96 wrote: Major rework is big enough to sound exciting and vague enough to be anything. Meaningless.
Thanks, Captain Obv.
I'm more interested in the potential beastmen and traitor guardsmen kits that might come out, and have all of this rounded out before Easter, which is mid-April. If Shadowspear goes up for pre-order next week, then that'll be a solid month and a half of releases we'll get for Chaos and Primaris stuff. That's a lot of content.
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"
I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?
Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!
I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40Kis "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.
If, and I do mean if, the CSM turn out to be monopose, I guess I will be happy with my box set and even more Chosen (monopose does seem to be their theme). I probably won't go halfsies with any player that just wants the loyalist stuff though.
I would hope that at very least GW would put out a full updated CSM kit in the future. Otherwise my Black Legion army isn't getting the reinforcements I would have hoped for.
My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.
Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.
Hmm... I guess it is possible. Let's hope you're right.
But the Chaos marine in the background to the right has what looks like a melta gun, not a plasma.
Yeah, that threw me off as well. Perhaps the actual full kit comes with more options than what's in Shadowspear? I'm not sure what to say though, that's what it says on the datasheet. I'm as confounded as you are.
What capacity is your source involved at?
I understand people’s hesitation, as you’ve never posted rumours before about anything so it’s either a new source or you’ve just been quiet in the past.
I’m guessing not local to you, as Canada would be an odd place for it to leak out.
I’d just hope that should all your rumours pan out, you aren’t put off by naysayers,
I'm just a new source, I'm actually surprised that I got this information! It's relatively local, actually, but I really can't say more than that.
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Does Obliterators have some changes to weapon? Does it still random profile shots or fixed weapons on model?
Actually, I just double checked and it seems that Obliterators have Assault 6 shots instead of Assault 4. But the profile is the same, S6+D3, APD3 and D3 damage.
OMG, Assault 6 ? Are you sure? That's a 50% increase in firepower on an already good Ranged unit. They really want to push these new Oblits models huh. If this is true, a squad of 3 will be putting out 18 shots! (And that's without counting Strategems). Btw, please tell me their cost remained the same. If that is so, Oblits just became far and away the best shooting unit CSM now have.
BTW, could I trouble you to tell me the number of attacks the Venomcrawler has? Does number of attack degrade? DOes it hit on a WS 4+ ? And other than the standard invul save 5++ I assume it has, what else does it have in terms of resiliencey? T8 ? 2+ save? 5+ FNP ? infernal regeneration?
BTW, can you give us any information about new possible formations?
Hotrod wrote: So I got to look at the rules for Shadowspear early. I don't want to post the actual pictures of the rules, as to not trace them back to my source that sent them to me, but I do have some info.
Chaos side :
1 Master of possession : Basically just a sorceror that knows 2 powers. Has 5++ save for being daemonkin
2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
1 Venomcrawler : 10 wounds, S6 (goes down to 5 and 4 per bracket). Armed with Excruciator Cannon (Assault D3, S+2, AP-2, D3 damage) and Eviscerating Claws (S+2, AP-3 and 3 damage), as well as Soulflayer Tendrils (S user, AP-2, 2 damage, does 2 additional attacks with this weapon). Blows up on a 5 and adds 1 to daemonic summoning rolls for Master of Possession within 6".
Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Pretty interesting stuff.
I was hoping the Master of Possession would have some new powers or an aura or something? How it is different from a regular sorcerer? It'll have to be pretty decent to be worth losing the jump pack for.
If the Greater Possessed have Character, they could actually be pretty nasty. If not, then maybe they could work coming out of a rhino, but i won't have high hopes. They'd better be pretty cheap to compete with just using Dark Apostles or Exalted champs. Re-rolls benefit a lot more stuff than their strength aura.
The usefulness of the Venomcrawler is gonna come down to its points really. It's less specialized than the forge fiends. +1 to daemonic summoning would be good if daemonic summoning was good, but it's not enough to make it attractive to use in general (especially since you need to be Word Bearers, Thousand Sons, or DG to have the summoning strat.)
Jump Pack and Terminator Librarians/captains can already deepstrike, so the Phobos one isn't doing much that's new except for the enhanced cover save. I guess it ought to be cheaper than jump pack or TDA?
Infiltrator Squads might be decent, but looks like they've been cursed with the typical bolter statline. Even with auto wounding on 6's, they just aren't going to do much. And they don't have the intercessor's ap -1. Maybe if they're cheaper than Intercessors? They'd have to be like 14pts to be worthwhile offensively. The Helix Adept may help defensively at least.
I don't really see what the use role for deepstriking autocannons is. It's another case of paying for mobility that you don't really need. If they ignore the move and shoot penalty to hit with heavy weapons then it doesn't hurt as much, but you're still gonna pay for it. I do like the weapon profile though. Preventing overwatch is a cool mechanic, but won't have much use because who even does CC with marines? Maybe it can help get the souped in Smash Captain in. But these things will generally be busy shooting at vehicles, not infantry.
Overall it sounds like nice units, but continuing the current design problems. Which isn't a surprise and is probably fine. Marines need to be uplifted in general, not just by power creeping their new units.
Based on what he says, Oblits fleshmetal guns just became 6 shots, they got a boost in toughness to T5, and their melee has become decent now. If they stayed the same in points... they are going to be a force to be reckoned with.
I'm pretty sure all the miniatures in this kit will be monopose and basically a pseudo starter set followed by multipart kits for the Chaos Marines and Primaris ones.
I could see the Chaos Tick remaining monopose or receiving a full kit like the Plague Drone.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Based on what he says, Oblits fleshmetal guns just became 6 shots, they got a boost in toughness to T5, and their melee has become decent now. If they stayed the same in points... they are going to be a force to be reckoned with.
I'm sure they will be more expensive. But they HAD to increase their damage output, because if they became more expensive to justify the increase in toughness, wounds and meele profile with the same Assault 4 profile, they would actually be nerfed in their shooting offensive output.
18 shots up to 36 with their wound profile would actually be right. Look at Kastellans. 110pts per 9/18 shots. That's with 6 wounds and a 3+/5++. Two of them are 220. 65pts per Oblit is just inline with other units that are out there.
Crimson wrote: It seems highly unlikely to me that if they would produced a new full multipart CSM kit, it would produce only one exact loadout for the squad. So either the rumours about the rules are wrong, or the CSM in the box are not a full multipart kit.
or they've only given us datasheets for a suggested loadout in the box
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"
I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?
Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!
I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40Kis "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.
Well in real life the bigger a government gets the more bloated and inefficient it's beurocracy tends to be, societies run off repression do tend to stagnate and stagnation is the very core of what the Imperium is, and societies like that tend to be extremely discrimatory towards minorities even when those minorities don't pose a legitimate threat of Chaos/xeno corruption. So while there are countless unrealistic elements of the setting it would be difficult to pick put any that are more realistic than what you have there, but I am entirely unsure as to if that was the point...?
Mantle wrote: Didn't they say they are new kits, not the full and final kits or either way? They could either be multipart or they could be monopose with multipart kits being released later like dark imperium
You might be right. I might be misrebembering what they said
The original reveal though showed a meltagun CSM. This dude said they're stuck with a plasma gun. So either this dude is trolling, or he's wrong about the plasma gun, or he's wrong about them being monopose.
It's a specific campaign box, it's possible that it gives a loadout that is specific to the box. Usually it would get a specific name to go with it, but I don't know.
Also in the original picture, the Lt has grav chute spines on his backpack, which weren't mentioned in his rules.
It's mentioned that he can deploy on the board abnormally, which is how Grav Chutes work.
And an apothecary in a scout squad? Why them specifically?
Geneseed is important. Makes sense that they'd have someone on hand to recover it if they fall--could also be a kind of combat search & rescue deal, Vanguard Squads go to recover the geneseed from fallen behind enemy lines.
And preventing a unit from shooting until last? That makes no sense and if it were to prevent overwatch, wouldn't it just say that the enemy unit can't shoot in overwatch?
We saw the wording now and it specifically calls out Overwatch until the end of the turn, so that's pretty handy. Maybe.
Also 2 possessed even though only one has featured in all the art and reveals and trailers?
We actually saw two, at least, in much of the art.
Galas wrote: I just don't understand that. Why don't they use all those new models to give the units more options?
You know the answer to that question already.
Crimson wrote: The incessant whining about the helmets is so tiresome. I really don't understand that how in this universe fuelled by ludicrousness and nonsense that is the hill so many people choose to die on?
Because in big works of fiction it's often the little details that don't make sense that break SOD.
Because in big works of fiction it's often the little details that don't make sense that break SOD.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In the grim darkness of the far future.... I wouldn’t worry about The minutiae
Because in big works of fiction it's often the little details that don't make sense that break SOD.
Hotrod wrote: 2 Greater possessed : squads of 1-2, can separate after deploying together. S5, T5, W5, A5, give +1S to all friendly <Mark of Chaos> <Legion> Daemon units within 6".
That'd be a shame if true. Just 1-2 of them, not a Primaris Greater Possessed unit?
Hotrod wrote: 1 Squad of Chaos Space Marines : 1 champion with axe, 4 with bolters, 3 with chainsword and bolt pistols, 1 with plasma gun, 1 with autocannon. No ability to switch out what's in there, so I assume they're monopose. The heavy bolter rumor picture might actually be for havocs? Not sure.
That makes me doubt this. I mean, yes, Marine minis these days are basically mono-pose (most GW minis are these days), but I find it weird that they'd make a 10-man squad with no special/heavy weapon options at all, and no champ options.
[EDIT]: Now I see the datasheet. *sigh* No model = no rule is a stronger force than the Chaos God themselves.
Hotrod wrote: Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
Would be a terrible missed opportunity to not just make Mutilators into the same kit, but then again, 6 Ork buggy SKUs, so the dual kit thing seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs.
Hotrod wrote: Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
Worried me greatly that we have Primaris unit with exactly one gun option. Maybe these will be Ezy-2-Bild.
Irbis wrote: ... two weapons we know exist in the box seeing ...
We don't know what box they belong to. We can presume they belong to Shadow Spear, but that's all we can do: Presume.
My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.
Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.
Hmm... I guess it is possible. Let's hope you're right.
I think that it possibly could be the case is that there's a sprue that won't be included ala the Armiger Warglaives(although we did find out it was the full kit...kinda/sorta) from Forgebane, which has some other components.
Hotrod wrote: Obliterators : T5 now with 4 wounds. Fleshmetal guns are the same, but they now have Crushing Fists. S+1, AP-1, D3 damage. I assume there will be 3, since squad size is still 3.
Would be a terrible missed opportunity to not just make Mutilators into the same kit, but then again, 6 Ork buggy SKUs, so the dual kit thing seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs.
Given the last AoS model release had multiple dual kits I think making that call is premature to say the least.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
John D Law wrote: Guess that means the rumored Primaris rhino was just a pipe dream?
Galas wrote: I'm pretty sure all the miniatures in this kit will be monopose and basically a pseudo starter set followed by multipart kits for the Chaos Marines and Primaris ones.
I could see the Chaos Tick remaining monopose or receiving a full kit like the Plague Drone.
Did they ever say that this was a battlebox, or just that everything inside is new sculpts? If it is basically a new starter set, that would explain both why the loadouts in the box are fixed, and why they dont match some of the pictures. The oddity of the 2 autocannon versions could be one in the starter and 1 in a multipart csm box. Greater possessed being 1 - 2 may not be their actual unit size, but just to fit the box, like the unit of 2 csm or 7 traitor guard in the blackstone fortress datasheets. Obliterators could be a multipart kit with mutilator options, with just one build in shadowspear. Or mutilators might just go away and be a fluff unit of obliterators who prefer melee.
I saw a couple of leaked datasheets and there was nothing particularly special. More interesting was one of the faded background images contained some sort of vehicle or terrain piece near some marines. I'm not convinced what it was or I'd take a stab at it.
At a glance at the box contents (if accurate) this is nothing huge for either side, but I'd say the Chaos upgrades are better than the marine ones. The marine options are "cool", but definitely not filling any gaps they had previously. I don't believe jumping autocannon fellas are going to be magic.
Brother Xeones wrote: I anyone else LOL'ing at the descriptions of Primaris Vanguard Marines from the Community article?
First, Vanguard Primaris Marines—not to be confused with "Vanguard Veterans" No, no, completely different! THESE marines are the Primar-est marines to ever lead from the tippity tip of "the tip of the spear" unlike others who lead or have lead before (scouts, vanguard, reivers, et al). THESE guys lead the charge while your opponent is still opening his carry case.
"Vanguard Space Marines are elite reconnaissance troops, trained to operate without support across the deadliest frontiers of the galaxy."
OK, Fair enough...
Ranging far ahead of their battle-brothers, they drop behind enemy lines, deep into hostile territory. Once in position, they launch a campaign of total devastation against the enemy. Every component of the opposing war machine is taken apart piece by piece – communications are severed, key commanders assassinated, supply caches demolished and morale drained away by unrelenting terror-strikes. When the enemy are all but beaten, the Vanguard Space Marines emerge from the shadows to deliver the killing strike.
So, um...where does the recon part come in?
I imagine Captain Acheran swings by Marneus Calgar's field office after Nemendghast: Acheran: Heeeey Marnie!
Calgar: Oh hey man! I didn't hear you come in—always the sneaky one!
Acheran: Right, so you know that planet you asked us to investigate to see if the enemy was there?
Calgar: Yeah?
Acheran: They aren't. I mean, they WERE there, but just not any more cuz we recon'ed them to death.
Calgar:Thanks Archie. You always give the best intel. Keep up the good work!
Also Captain Acheran is "A modest and taciturn commander" They totally nailed his essence with the mini because he looks super-chill. I bet he shouts like that and gestures dramatically during most of his covert "recon" missions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm still looking forward to all of this, but you can't help but see the humor here...
Yep, I really like the models but everything else that comes with it is just....
Not much thought goes into it anymore, well not as much as before anyway, thats how it looks to me.
Elbows wrote: I saw a couple of leaked datasheets and there was nothing particularly special. More interesting was one of the faded background images contained some sort of vehicle or terrain piece near some marines. I'm not convinced what it was or I'd take a stab at it.
I was massively sceptical about these leaks until the datasheet images were posted. But the model images at the bottom do seal the deal. GW did say that Shadow Spear would contain all new sculpts. No mention about non of them being push fit/easy build though. The thing is, thanks to the preview trailer and the rumour engine we know that there CSM with other weapons coming. So IMO that leaves two possible explanations. Either the datasheet is for a fixed Shadow Spear loadout and omits other options on the kit, or the Shadow Spear squad are easy builds with a "full" kit being released down the road.
I think people are expecting a bit too much from the basic rules of models. Specialist detachments and stratagems will clearly buff these units, I expect the suppressors will get some kind of cool stratagem to help them move around and shoot more.
The eliminators sound like a useful unit too with -2 to hit they are going to be resilient if you sit them in cover and just pop shots off at characters they are a nice unit and I'll be using them.
Still excited to get this box set and I'm actually pleased the possesed aren't a big unit as I don't really want them for the iron warriors I'm planning.
I hope not either, they should allow for standardization or allowing you to have a mixed unit as a choice, but most won't cause there is no need to.
And yeah i lost my hope for them having a multipart kit this definately means its pushfit, which sucks for everyone involved here goes another six months before we get them out of those sprues. We are still waiting for them to give us options on intercessors, hellblasters, aggressors, and inceptors.... Helk we still don't have multipart kit for the primaris captains or their LTS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Here's hoping that this leak forces GW's hand and they bring the full on reveal to today.
Probably not. I don't think they will. If they do good for us. Bad for them.
Yep, I really like the models but everything else that comes with it is just....
Not much thought goes into it anymore, well not as much as before anyway, thats how it looks to me.
The new lore seems rushed, and this stuff seems out of well.. stupidity. Don't they know space marines are the speartip in a formation? They never go in like in long lines their whole point is to destroy enemy leadership, supply, cripple morale, and strategic objectives.. it even says that in their codex.
They aren't looking at the lore are they just going crazy with this whole 'reimagining of space marines' which isn't really a reimagining its the same thing just a bigger model. They haven't developed anything 'new' for space marines. Want something new, give marines a walker or a vechile that is actually interesting and compelling as a plastic kit that doesn't look like gak or give marines their dedicated close combat units that emphasize the setting. So far we don't have any interesting lore with the primaris and I am not surprised, they aren't different, their lore has been subpar so far and there have only been three books on the primaris that are warrant any attention. Space Marine books and just books in general still use the same space marines.
They need to rethink their strategy for how they write their lore. If they want modern military tactics for marines, great that is a wonderful idea, but they are kind of aimless currently and abundantly obvious in each release that 'primaris are the best', in ever book they come off as pestilent children in adult setting. They don't act with the same fidelity and interest that other characters in the setting have and is woefully apparent in many of the books and campaign novels.
I think this box can contain tabletop game, and datasheets in this book can be used only plaing primaris from box vs CSM from box. You know, like in "Know no fear" starter. Datasheet from its rules cut to display gear and abilities for tabletop playing.
But there is no thoughts when we get full datasheets in this case.
The suppressor squad is all over the place : high mobility (why ? they don't seem to have jetpacks in the picture ?), fast attack with a high range heavy weapon, facilitate charge by removing overwatch, they have a smoke launcher like a tank ... I'm a little bit suprised. They're the first primaris unit with a weapon that has a range higher than 36 and they're fast attack ? I think their future kit will have other load out option ? Who knows.
It will be interesting to see what gw shows off tomorrow or on Tuesday. The rumour engine pics we have seen make it clear that the chaos marines in the box set will not be the only releases. The data sheets we have seen and the rumour of a two week preorder very much make it look like we will get a easy to build style box set in the vein of Dark Imperium or Soul Wars, with more minis for both factions to follow later.
The most interesting thing for me is that the box set seem very heavily weighted in favour of the chaos side. If we count the greater possessed as hero style units we end up with chaos having the same number of infantry as primaris but also three Obliterators and a big vehicle.
We know that Hotrod only saw data sheets and not a full book or minis. Maybe there are some primaris data sheets missing.
WhiteDog wrote: The suppressor squad is all over the place : high mobility (why ? they don't seem to have jetpacks in the picture ?), fast attack with a high range heavy weapon, facilitate charge by removing overwatch, they have a smoke launcher like a tank ... I'm a little bit suprised. They're the first primaris unit with a weapon that has a range higher than 36 and they're fast attack ?
I think their future kit will have other load out option ? Who knows.
That's my feeling, too. They must be in line for an assault option. Otherwise they're just a very confused unit. I think the only reason they're in FA is because Primaris are already overloaded in the Elites department and Hellblasters are an autotake in Heavy.
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"
I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?
Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!
I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40Kis "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.
Well in real life the bigger a government gets the more bloated and inefficient it's beurocracy tends to be, societies run off repression do tend to stagnate and stagnation is the very core of what the Imperium is, and societies like that tend to be extremely discrimatory towards minorities even when those minorities don't pose a legitimate threat of Chaos/xeno corruption. So while there are countless unrealistic elements of the setting it would be difficult to pick put any that are more realistic than what you have there, but I am entirely unsure as to if that was the point...?
The point is that the idea "technology is scary" is somehow beyond the pale and "grimderp" is ridiculous given the broader context of the setting, which is full of illogical, extreme, over-the-top renditions of all sorts of things.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I more think these datasheets are more like the Deathstorm, Death Masque, or Stormclaw boxed sets from 7e. Those had datasheets that were incomplete.
yeah could be. I could also see the new box being more akin to dark imperium then the standard battle boxes, if only to ensure that people don't just buy the boxed sets and refuse to buy the basic stuff. partiuclarly as these ARE all new models.
Nostromodamus wrote: All this new gak that Marines keep getting must be making the Fabricator General of Mars itching for another schism. Every new release is blatant tech heresy.
I dunno, one of the biggest turn offs for me in 40K fluff is the whole "hurr durr technology scary, but we use it all the time actually, but hurr durr its scary!"
I wouldn't mind seeing that part of 40K go into the past and get replaced with something more akin to the world in AoS. Grimderp is a product of a different time, perhaps its time to let it rest?
Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!
I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40Kis "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.
Well in real life the bigger a government gets the more bloated and inefficient it's beurocracy tends to be, societies run off repression do tend to stagnate and stagnation is the very core of what the Imperium is, and societies like that tend to be extremely discrimatory towards minorities even when those minorities don't pose a legitimate threat of Chaos/xeno corruption. So while there are countless unrealistic elements of the setting it would be difficult to pick put any that are more realistic than what you have there, but I am entirely unsure as to if that was the point...?
The point is that the idea "technology is scary" is somehow beyond the pale and "grimderp" is ridiculous given the broader context of the setting, which is full of illogical, extreme, over-the-top renditions of all sorts of things.
I totally agree that it is, it just seems he cherry-picked the most realistic points possible out of a totally crazy setting.
warp talons might be quite fun with the exalted possessed'd +1s
5 make em WE deep strike in near him charge in you can't overwatch, 16 s5 -2 attacks re-rolling to wound. would VOTLW be the +1 after or before the re-roll to wound because that 5 (maybe 4) (edit: guess it does not matter just re-roll ye 3,2,1's) to wound knights with a re-roll goes a fair way. not totally terrible for 120pts .. taking what 5 wounds off a knight?
Asherian Command wrote: The new lore seems rushed, and this stuff seems out of well.. stupidity. Don't they know space marines are the speartip in a formation? They never go in like in long lines their whole point is to destroy enemy leadership, supply, cripple morale, and strategic objectives.. it even says that in their codex.
It might "say" so but if you think about it for a second, regular SM company is mechanized infantry force with tanks and artillery. This is not how a force doing the above looks like, especially if they have heavy armour and dreadnoughts, units even less suited to anything but frontal smashing. Until now, GW was making excuses "oh, look, if they leave all their support behind and act like disorganized light infantry unit they can totally do recon and behind the lines assault, honest guv!" but now SM are getting proper tools for missions like this.
Irbis wrote: ... two weapons we know exist in the box seeing ...
We don't know what box they belong to. We can presume they belong to Shadow Spear, but that's all we can do: Presume.
If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.
Yodhrin wrote: The point is that the idea "technology is scary" is somehow beyond the pale and "grimderp" is ridiculous given the broader context of the setting, which is full of illogical, extreme, over-the-top renditions of all sorts of things.
Except, you know, when people object to 'grimderp' they don't mean grimdark. They mean comically stupid, over the top idiocy that would have toppled Imperium in 10 years, never mind 10 millennia. Stuff like garbage new lore stating each commissar has to kill several other commissar-cadets in order to graduate, SM recruiting process having 99.9% mortality rate (especially when they recruit from a planet with tiny population that would never sustain this) with extra geneseed apparently materializing from thin air, and rest of the crap that states Imperium pointlessly kills trillions at every single possible step which only turns grimdark into farce and so cheapens it that genuinely dark portions of the lore cease to trigger any reaction in an audience that was already numbed to death twice.
To actually see Imperium being competent in areas where they really should is not only refreshing, I have no idea how anyone can take grimderp "even highest echelons of AM don't know how a toaster works" idiocy over it. Technology is scary, yes, but DAoT one. Not what Imperium is using. If AM can design and produce hurricane bolters (a very complex and complicated weapon system that nevertheless works flawlessly), bolt rifles should pose no problem whatsoever. Ditto for Mk X armour, they designed Mk VIII, so adding a few bits from Mk IV to that and calling it a day should be trivial. Yet, grimderp proponents say doing stuff that already happened in old lore dozens of times somehow makes Cawl a mary sue and he should focus on venerating toasters instead. Gee, I have no idea why people might object to that
Hotrod wrote: Space Marines :
Librarian in Phobos Armour : Librarian that can set up anywhere more than 9" away from enemy deployment zone and models. Also has a camo cloak, which adds 2 to saving throws in cover.
Captain in Phobos Armour : Same as Librarian, but is a captain. Armed with Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt-Carbine (what a mouthful). S4, AP-2, 2 damage, can target characters even if they're not the closest. Has combat knife too, same as Reivers.
Lieutenant in Phobos Armour : Same as above. Has Master-Crafted Occulus Bolt Carbine, S4, AP0, D2, units don't get cover saves against it. Also has combat knife.
Eliminator Squad : Squad of 3 . They have bolt sniper rifles, two different ammo types. Both are heavy 1, 36" and S4. Executionner rounds are AP-2, D3 damage and rolls of 6 do mortal wounds. Mortis rounds are AP-1, 1 damage, can target units that aren't visible, they don't get cover and add 2(!) to hit rolls with these rounds. Also have the abilities of the librarian.
Infiltrator Squads : Squad of 5, can have up to 10 with an Infiltrator Helix Adept. Armed with Marksman Bolt Carbine, Rapid Fire 1, S4, AP0, 1 damage. Each unmodified hit of 6 does an instant hit and wound. Helix Adept is basically an apothecary, it can heal or revive a model from the unit.
Suppressor Squad : Squad of 3, can deep strike with the grav-chutes. 12" movement. They have Accelerator Autocannons, heavy 2, S7, AP-2, 2 damage. Also, when they kill a model in a unit, that unit can't shoot until the end of the turn (so I guess it cancels out overwatch?).
That's all I have. I can give more specifics if anybody likes for statlines. I don't have points values, I'm afraid, but I do have power levels.
Those Phobos characters will go really well with my Inceptors... as long as they don't cost more than their jump pack non-primaris versions.
The snipers... expected a but more (S5, at least). Still, firing at hiding enemies is awesome - although +2 to hit and ignoring cover alone would be good enough! The other ammo is... eh, Vindicare already does that better. Wait, they're HS? Ugh. I'm already using those slots for Devastators and Contemptor-Mortises...
Infiltrators already sound better than Reivers!
Suppressors are nice. They're basically disassembled Storm Cannon Arrays with attached marines. They're FA, which makes them quite nice (although Elites would be awesome)
Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.
If they're snipers they'll be able to target characters and score mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6 from memory, ontop of the other jazz. But since they basically auto hit a lot of stuff, that's mental.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.
I think he means the general rule that all snipers can target characters even if they aren't the closest model but until we see the datasheet, who knows if that round can
If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.
Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.
Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.
Wayniac wrote: If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.
Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.
Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.
There are still some unknowns admittedly but the venom crawler seems a bit like it's lost. Its not as durable as a defiler, not as good at melee as a maulerfiend and not as good at ranged support as a forgefiend from what had been relayed so far. Hoping the full dataslate holds some secrets.
Wayniac wrote: If the leaks are true, Primaris look to be getting a huge buff.
Chaos seems incredibly lackluster. Not that I should be surprised. Greater possessed seem cool, Venomcrawler seems like hot garbage. Master of Possession seems like trash but if he gets his own discipline could be decent.
Very very disappointing for Chaos right now. If these aren't holdover rules until a forthcoming new codex soon (like the Kelermorph's rules in the KT box that were immediately changed in the codex) I'm done I think. They've had too long to fix stuff and show they don't know or care how to do it right.
There are still some unknowns admittedly but the venom crawler seems a bit like it's lost. Its not as durable as a defiler, not as good at melee as a maulerfiend and not as good at ranged support as a forgefiend from what had been relayed so far. Hoping the full dataslate holds some secrets.
Probably a buff aura for dameon keyword units?
Because of the lore? But tbh that is about as usefull for a CSM army as the old possesed look.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
I don't think it allows them to target characters, just units they can't see. Isn't the character rule wording that they can't be targeted unless they're the closeted model? Rather than them being out of line of sight.
I think he means the general rule that all snipers can target characters even if they aren't the closest model but until we see the datasheet, who knows if that round can
Oh right. I though we were just going off what that leaker guy said a while back, who said one of their bullet types can target units out of LoS. But you're right, no one has said they can't target characters as well.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
The we'll be back rule is genuinely one of the most frustrating rules in the game, crypteks do not bring any fun to the game, they are nearly as bad as tau with the drones.
Secondly, orks are strong, so many ork players on here whinging, like with the vindicare new rules.... You can't shoot them if they are in a vehicle, you have ways to mitigate it. Armies need hard counters to your characters and it is fluffy, orks fall apart and into disarray once the bigger works start dying.
Oguhmek wrote: Can't say I'm a big fan of this sniping at targets out of LOS thing. Same with those annoying Knight missiles - it just means that my Crypteks and Weirdboys never survive T1. Takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because I have no way to react to it, except leave them out of my list in the first place. It kind of sucks.
The we'll be back rule is genuinely one of the most frustrating rules in the game, crypteks do not bring any fun to the game, they are nearly as bad as tau with the drones.
Secondly, orks are strong, so many ork players on here whinging, like with the vindicare new rules.... You can't shoot them if they are in a vehicle, you have ways to mitigate it. Armies need hard counters to your characters and it is fluffy, orks fall apart and into disarray once the bigger works start dying.
Except that a charachter in a vehicle might aswell not exist since he has no impact.
Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!
Mymearan wrote: Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!
They can reach high places? One would think melee, but... Yeah, I got nothing.
Mymearan wrote: Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!
And supressor are inceptor with more range a heavy weapon and some rule.
Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.
Mymearan wrote: Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!
And supressor are inceptor with more range a heavy weapon and some rule.
Supressors are only T4, and don’t have the crushing charge rule (not a huge loss there). But they do have +2” of movement, and pistols/grenades they will never use.
Malefic666 wrote: Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.
Can't comment on chaos, but I'm pretty bummed at the Primaris leaks so far. Suppressors seem really awkward with that combination of mobility and heavy weapons. Eliminators look fun, and I guess it's cool to have Primaris HQs and troops in place early to support the deep strike elements, but nothing about any of those units strike me as particularly powerful or interesting. Leak suggests no vanguard keywords either, so no special vanguard rules.
The most depressing part of this whole release hasn't been anything from GW. It's overwhelmingly been from the reactions. Am one of the only people who doesn't need to have good rules to like a unit?
If so many people are put off by the Primaris models, I'll be happily snapping them up on Ebay!
Yodhrin wrote:Yes, absolutely, and while we're at it the Administratum is a ludicrous concept, the Imperium should operate like a well-oiled machine with competent bureaucrats. And the Ecclesiarchy is just silly, societies that operate based on fear and repression stagnate, so they should rework the Imperium's religion to be more like the Quakers. Not to mention how horribly bigoted the Imperium are towards genetic minorities, it's monstrous that the differently-limbed and multi-headed receive such discriminatory treatment and it makes no sense to limit the potential of a significant minority of your society out of superstition and phobic fear, Mutant Rights Now!
But these make sense? These are all realistic elements of 40k. Unless that was ironic, of course.
I know the "muh Rogue Trader, muh Oldhammer" lot object, but it's really time to face up to reality; 40Kis "grimderp", and pretty much always has been. Even when it was "funny" it was "grimderp". Even when it was Wardian-heroic it was "grimderp". Even now it's being transformed into a saturday morning cartoon, it's still "grimderp". If you dislike "grimderp", you pretty much dislike 40K.
Again, I think there is a difference between grimdark and grimderp.
For me, I explain the difference as "In Grimdark, the Imperium is only able to survive because the horrible things it does are the only things that work."
Grimderp would be "The Imperium does horrible things even though they would be able to survive in the same/better way by not doing them".
40k isn't grimderp - only parts of it are.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Worried me greatly that we have Primaris unit with exactly one gun option. Maybe these will be Ezy-2-Bild.
I don't know why you're mocking ETB. ETB has been around for decades, and recently, the models have been so good that they can stand next to a fully articulated one, and not look horrifically different.
I'm a MASSIVE fan of ETB. Genuinely, I think it's a massive improvement for the hobby. Not as a replacement of normal kits, certainly, but if these are the same as what we've seen with Dark Imperium (which did have ETB kits, and then released all those kits as full units with options later), what's the harm?
Asherian Command wrote:And yeah i lost my hope for them having a multipart kit this definately means its pushfit, which sucks for everyone involved here goes another six months before we get them out of those sprues. We are still waiting for them to give us options on intercessors, hellblasters, aggressors, and inceptors.... Helk we still don't have multipart kit for the primaris captains or their LTS.
You have options. You have a variety of weapon options for the Sergeants, grenade launchers, different bolt rifle types for Intercessors.
Hellblasters get different variants of Incinerator.
Aggressors have either bolt or flamer, but that's still an option.
Inceptors have largely the same as Aggressors. Sure, they're the most limiting, but compared to the most limiting of the standard SM units, is it so bad? Is it any different to Assault Terminators? Centurions?
And no, you absolutely do have multipart kits for the Captain. Two ranged options, helmet variants, and a right hand option - that's more than some previous Captain kits, and the kit itself is relatively simple to convert (the arms aren't even attached to the model!). I don't see how it's not classed as multipart.
The new lore seems rushed, and this stuff seems out of well.. stupidity. Don't they know space marines are the speartip in a formation? They never go in like in long lines their whole point is to destroy enemy leadership, supply, cripple morale, and strategic objectives.. it even says that in their codex.
Yes - and these are the speartip of the speartip.
Most modern armies are trained for combat like that now. However, you also have units trained to do that to a more advanced extent.
If you dislike this, then surely you must have disliked Scouts, which did exactly the same? Or units like the Thunderbolts, a 2nd Company Tactical Squad that specialized in recon actions for the 2nd Company? (as featured in the Assault on Black Reach novella and 5th Edition Codex).
Just because Marines in general fight in speartip formations (and even then, not all the time - the Battle Missions book outlines that Marines are a force multiplier, for use in both attack and defence), you can still have units that take this further and perform actions that normally equipped brethren could not.
They aren't looking at the lore are they just going crazy with this whole 'reimagining of space marines' which isn't really a reimagining its the same thing just a bigger model. They haven't developed anything 'new' for space marines. Want something new, give marines a walker or a vechile that is actually interesting and compelling as a plastic kit that doesn't look like gak or give marines their dedicated close combat units that emphasize the setting. So far we don't have any interesting lore with the primaris and I am not surprised, they aren't different, their lore has been subpar so far and there have only been three books on the primaris that are warrant any attention. Space Marine books and just books in general still use the same space marines.
Define new. I think Inceptors, as a shooting-focused jump pack unit is unlike anything else GW has given with the SM. Reivers, while in execution, lacklustre, are a new niche as terror troops. These Eliminators give us a heavy sniper unit, unlike the Scouts. Infiltrators are unique with their integrated medics.
And, stating the obvious, but I think that the new kits are perfectly compelling, look great, and have interesting lore. Your insights are your opinions, and while that's fine, I strongly disagree with them all.
They need to rethink their strategy for how they write their lore. If they want modern military tactics for marines, great that is a wonderful idea, but they are kind of aimless currently and abundantly obvious in each release that 'primaris are the best', in ever book they come off as pestilent children in adult setting. They don't act with the same fidelity and interest that other characters in the setting have and is woefully apparent in many of the books and campaign novels.
I disagree with all of this. I think they're just fine, and if GW carry on as they are, I'm happy with that.
WhiteDog wrote:The suppressor squad is all over the place : high mobility (why ? they don't seem to have jetpacks in the picture ?), fast attack with a high range heavy weapon, facilitate charge by removing overwatch, they have a smoke launcher like a tank ... I'm a little bit suprised. They're the first primaris unit with a weapon that has a range higher than 36 and they're fast attack ?
I think their future kit will have other load out option ? Who knows.
Fast Attack probably because they have high mobility, from the jump packs they do have (the picture isn't great, but they do have them).
They're FA in the same respect that Sentinels are Fast Attack - even though they have heavy weapons, they are mobile first and foremost.
Mymearan wrote:Feels like so much overlap between Primaris units. What's the point of Reivers now that you have Infiltrators? They shoot better, can also deep strike and are Troops!
Reivers have vertical mobility, generally seem to be built for that mobility (assault weapons and pistols), and have the terror troops aspect. Reivers could do with more emphasis on that, but they are distinct enough in my head to be different.
Irbis wrote: If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.
Unrelated model into a spear video, yes, you're right, they wouldn't do that. But some of these rumour engine previews don't have to be from the spear box and could well be from proper multi-part kits (or as "proper" as post-CHS GW gets these days).
I mean that last weapon looked like a champ upgrade Lightning Claw, and clearly the Chainaxe guy from Spear only has that, so it could be a champion upgrade form a proper new Chaos Marine kit.
As far as moulds go, well we did get 13 Ez-2-Bild Plague Marines before the full kit came out.
Beta strike firepower. Start off the table so you can’t be alpha stuck and die before you do anything. Drop down into your gunline and then act like a dev squad.
Fly. Can’t be tied up in CC. Harder to silence them with backfield harassing chaff units.
On tables with a lot of LoS blockers or other terrain issues, they let you get some real firepower in that can shoot from another angle. Mortar teams and light artillery might have a new foe.
How many points they are I think will make or break them. PL5 for 3 guys suggests a point value of around 100. For 3 guys with autocannons and some perks, that seems reasonable, at least for regular FLGS play.
Irbis wrote: If GW put unrelated models into Spear videos it would be really not cool. IMO, I still can't see a 'campaign' box being full of push-fits when last 5 or 6 of them were multiparts, so I hope it's full sized kits. Especially seeing camplaign boxes are quickly discontinued and I can't see GW making moulds for that many units twice, but we'll see.
Unrelated model into a spear video, yes, you're right, they wouldn't do that. But some of these rumour engine previews don't have to be from the spear box and could well be from proper multi-part kits (or as "proper" as post-CHS GW gets these days).
I mean that last weapon looked like a champ upgrade Lightning Claw, and clearly the Chainaxe guy from Spear only has that, so it could be a champion upgrade form a proper new Chaos Marine kit.
As far as moulds go, well we did get 13 Ez-2-Bild Plague Marines before the full kit came out.
The CSM with meltagun was in the Spear video. So either there’s more options than the data sheet shows, or they did show an unrelated model in the Spear vid.
I do not think these will be push fit. Firstly they said this box would be like the most recent ones, which were all full kits, Tooth and Claw had a full dread kit even though they could have slipped in a push fit.
We also haven't seen any push fit models since the start of 8th either. At the start there was a whole bunch. Where are the GSC push fit models?
Re the Chaos rules so far. The only thing I’m gutted about is the lack of imagination. I don’t care about waac or competitive games. However, it’s no fun to see leaks that show poor imagination. Master of Possession, just a sorcerer with a 5++? Is that it? Greater Possessed? 5 stats is nice but does he buff movement or let them run and charge or give Possessed d3+1 attacks or reroll hits and wounds?
I mean come on GW, some imagination would be nice!
Caveats - I pray to the dark gods that the leak is a snippet or missing some juicy bits to make these new models FUN to use as they are amazing sculpts.
