Just to clarify I don’t necessarily think there shouldn’t be tech innovation in 40k, just that the Martian priesthood should start getting antsy about it and maybe there could be an interesting development concerning the activities of Cawl and the reaction of the greater Mechanicus.
I mean they are concerned about him, guillaman has even said he will likely need to kill cawl at some point, cawl keeps asking to be made fabricator general. Mars is split over Cawl, some hate him and some flock to him as a new path for the admech. Guillamans "approval" of him is likely what has stopped open rebellion and allowed the growth of a faction that agrees with cawl, preventing ad mech as a whole just killing him and making a schism more likely in the future. At the moment the tech heresy, approval of a demi god and high risk of damage is not worth them fighting to remove cawl over just yet. Though might be if the traitor gene seed and his semi AI become wide spread knowledge.
Latro_ wrote: warp talons might be quite fun with the exalted possessed'd +1s
5 make em WE deep strike in near him charge in you can't overwatch, 16 s5 -2 attacks re-rolling to wound. would VOTLW be the +1 after or before the re-roll to wound because that 5 (maybe 4) (edit: guess it does not matter just re-roll ye 3,2,1's) to wound knights with a re-roll goes a fair way. not totally terrible for 120pts .. taking what 5 wounds off a knight?
also s8 heldrake
they will also stack with deamon heralds most likely making a deamonkin force more viable, so can get em to str 6 plus locus buff
Nostromodamus wrote: Just to clarify I don’t necessarily think there shouldn’t be tech innovation in 40k, just that the Martian priesthood should start getting antsy about it and maybe there could be an interesting development concerning the activities of Cawl and the reaction of the greater Mechanicus.
But don't the Adeptus Mechanicus makes new technology like, all the time, since the origination of the lore? The only problem with that is the fact that for something to be approbed as "safe" has to past so many regulators and inspections that centuries can happen before that. But I assume having a Primarch covering your back will make things go faster.
This actually seems pretty solid, and it is nice to get another troop option. Someone who's better at maths needs to do the calculations on the effect of the bolter's special rule.
My only gripe is the lack of options on the Sergeant. I really don't get why GW doesn't understand that you can glue those upgrade sprue weapon on models other than Intercessor Sergeants. Allowing Reivers to take them too would be a big step towards foxing them as well.
AduroT wrote: Interesting that the whole Infiltrator unit has to give up its shooting to use Smoke while only the Surpressor’s Sergeant is required to.
From what the model appeared to be, it looked like just the Suppressor Sergeant had a smoke launcher attached to his autocannon while the others have smoke grenades actually on their persons.
I'm not sure how I feel about the Omni-Scramblers, if only because it might shift what would be a sidegrade unit into a "Must Have" now.
They seem like a really decent forward unit. Have them in cover and any wounds you lose to ap- will just be healed next turn or you have a chance at a revive. Or a double revive if you have an apothecary nearby.
Nostromodamus wrote: Just to clarify I don’t necessarily think there shouldn’t be tech innovation in 40k, just that the Martian priesthood should start getting antsy about it and maybe there could be an interesting development concerning the activities of Cawl and the reaction of the greater Mechanicus.
But don't the Adeptus Mechanicus makes new technology like, all the time, since the origination of the lore? The only problem with that is the fact that for something to be approbed as "safe" has to past so many regulators and inspections that centuries can happen before that. But I assume having a Primarch covering your back will make things go faster.
To some extent. It really depends on the religious minutiae that a particular Tech Priest or Forge World subscribes to. Generally though innovation is frowned upon and has led to civil wars previously, so with that precident I’m interested in how GW approach any potential intra-Mechanicum feuding vis-a-vis Belesarius Cawl.
They seem like a really decent forward unit. Have them in cover and any wounds you lose to ap- will just be healed next turn or you have a chance at a revive. Or a double revive if you have an apothecary nearby.
Heal 1 model. Not any, and AP doesn't matter.
Revive is most likely just going to cost you shots.
Plus there's area denial which marines need.
It's pretty situational. Against some armies, an additional 3" further out will matter. Against others, it won't.
The complete lack of firepower, AP or any close combat ability, on the other hand, will make them mediocre against everything.
Especially if the beta rules for SM bolt weapons comes through, intercessors with +6 range and -1 AP look a lot better, and they aren't an amazing unit either.
Really happy with infiltrators they seem excellent, in a castle style force they will be very useful to stop deep strikers. The fact they have smoke grenades is very cool too.
Would just like to say that I apologise for doubting you.
This unit actually looks interesting, cool to see that they get the scout rule.
No worries! If it were me, I would also doubt some random guy who pops out of nowhere claiming to have a bunch of datasheets.
But yeah, Infiltrators look super neat as well. Not as good offensively as Inceptors, but they have other more tactical uses.
Thanks! Any chance of the Venomcrawler or the Master of Possession datasheets? Or at least, are there any rules clarifying which Chaos faction can take these units?
JohnnyHell wrote: Pretty sure the Dakka mods would rather they weren't in the thread tbh
If you're referring to the datasheet, typically what I've seen here with leaks what happens is that it's ok that you post links to such things as long as they're NOT hosted on dakka but instead elsewhere. If they get a complaint from the IP owner, the mods immediately remove the "offending" material themselves. Regardless, you could always ask/alert one.
I'd say the Chaos stuff meets my expectation for the most part. New Obliterators are very welcome, the character looks at least OK, and the Venomcrawler is at least a new unit that you might use if it is priced appropriately (under 100). For the Posessed, you had to expect a walking, melee only type guy, hopefully this new one moves more than 4"!
The CSM squad is a disappointment. The lack of options points this to being a Dark Imperium type of set rather than the more recent "Battle Boxes". Few if any would field a CSM squad with this set of options. I'm not thrilled to have Bane Jr as a squad leader but that is an easy enough conversion.
Not much on my "wish list" here, but not too bad, all things considered.
The Space Marine stuff looks very promising! The CSMs lead me to believe they might not have separate shoulder pads, and I'm curious about that.
Oblits sound tasty but unless DG can take them I will be giving the chaise a shrug. DG could also use the greater possessed but who knows if we'll get them.
So every Vanguard Marine in Phobos armour gets the new keyword and the concealed positions rule. I'd assume this means an updated Riever datasheet in whatever book the Vanguards full rules come in?
Right. So the drop lieutenant doesn't even have a reiver comat knife that would give an extra attack, he just has normal CCW that does absolutely nothing. He however has 'knife fighter' special rule, which means that hit rolls of six generate two hits in melee... So pretty much the same end result than if he just had the reiver knife for one extra attack. Utterly pointless. And someone really spend time to write this CC rule for this character which utterly sucks in melee, because he doesn't have a real melee weapon...
It is also unfortunate that even though the reiver knife and chainsword have identical rules, they're different entries, so you still cannot give the captain the Teeth of Terra...
The Primaris units themselves seem nice, but the characters are a complete fail. The Librarian might be good, depending on the powers. It would be unlikely that they'd be worse than standard librarius powers...
It may just be the perspective, but the picture of the venomcrawler on its data sheet looks smaller than I expected (compared to the CSM standing behind it)
XT-1984 wrote: Hotrod thank you for showing us this stuff.
Do you have the datasheet for Obliterators? That'd be awesome.
No problem, it's my pleasure to share them! I sent all of the datasheets to Valrak, and he should be posting them up soon. He just did a stream on all of the datasheets as well!
Sooo, 6 shot, t5, w4 oblits for pl 6....soo 120ish points?
So 240 points for the 12 shots we have now, on 8 t5 wounds instead of 9 t4 wounds.
With the capability to go to 360ish points, wich will be brutal with cacaphony and veterans.
Seems.... Ok? 100 points would be fair also imho
Crimson wrote: Right. So the drop lieutenant doesn't even have a reiver comat knife that would give an extra attack, he just has normal CCW that does absolutely nothing. He however has 'knife fighter' special rule, which means that hit rolls of six generate two hits in melee... So pretty much the same end result than if he just had the reiver knife for one extra attack. Utterly pointless. And someone really spend time to write this CC rule for this character which utterly sucks in melee, because he doesn't have a real melee weapon...
It is also unfortunate that even though the reiver knife and chainsword have identical rules, they're different entries, so you still cannot give the captain the Teeth of Terra...
The Primaris units themselves seem nice, but the characters are a complete fail. The Librarian might be good, depending on the powers. It would be unlikely that they'd be worse than standard librarius powers...
My thought is that those datasheets are exclusives to Shadowspear so the actual units may have more build options available. So it is not set in stone just yet.
But I also think that this sets miniatures are monopose. The fact that none of those units don't have any options avaible kinda leads in that direction.
Sotahullu wrote: My thought is that those datasheets are exclusives to Shadowspear so the actual units may have more build options available. So it is not set in stone just yet.
But I also think that this sets miniatures are monopose. The fact that none of those units don't have any options avaible kinda leads in that direction.
If I remember rightly, Forgebane only had the data sheets for one build of the multi build kits that were included.
The chaos stuff seems mostly extremely to highly points, and in general not all that useful unless the new spells are boss for the demon caster.
The marine stuff is so so, except for the sniper/eliminator units...at 3 PL= 60pts they will be extremely good at killing characters esp with a vindicare in suppot
1PL anywhere between 15-20 points. So for example the infiltrators say 5 PL, but they could be 17ppm.
The chaos stuff really hope it isn't a direct 20pt per PL, those oblits should be ~105 or 110 points. 120 is a tad too steep. Same for the venom crawler, not great at 140 but anywhere between 125-130 wouldn't be bad.
Formosa wrote: Venom crawler is worse than a dread at the moment, so it better be around the 80-100pt mark, those stats a do not warrant any higher a cost.
It does have a built in heal ability, which helps with the degrading statline.
Formosa wrote: Venom crawler is worse than a dread at the moment, so it better be around the 80-100pt mark, those stats a do not warrant any higher a cost.
At 9 wounds with no degradation I could see an argument for 140
Yeah the entire primaris force seems clunky, but some units are usable - the infiltrator squad, the captain and lieutenant. I'm sad we don't have access to the two new disciplines.
I'd be willing to bet that these are Shadowspear only models, and that we will be seeing new Codexes for both Marines and CSM in the coming months, with the full kits.
Compare 120 points Obliterators or 140 point Venomcrawlers to a 140 point Plagueburst Crawler and I can see myself saving a lot of money on this release.
WhiteDog wrote: Yeah the entire primaris force seems clunky, but some units are usable - the infiltrator squad, the captain and lieutenant. I'm sad we don't have access to the two new disciplines.
How is the lieutenant useful? He's a complete joke character. At least the captain has the anti-DS bubble.
WhiteDog wrote: Yeah the entire primaris force seems clunky, but some units are usable - the infiltrator squad, the captain and lieutenant. I'm sad we don't have access to the two new disciplines.
How is the lieutenant useful? He's a complete joke character. At least the captain has the anti-DS bubble.
He can deepstrike, it's the only primaris lieutenant that can. As I see it the lieutenant can be a bubble for deep striking inceptor and that's it. He has no role beside that.
The captain is not glorious, but compared to all the other primaris captain he is the best : his weapon is arguably the best, he has one more attack, the ability to deepstrike and the andi ds bubble, without any downside. To be fair, it just shows how primaris are useless at the moment.
Togusa wrote: I'd be willing to bet that these are Shadowspear only models, and that we will be seeing new Codexes for both Marines and CSM in the coming months, with the full kits.
Yup I agree, this is exactly like forgebane, same timing too I think. I bet all the points etc. are out of date to the box set and are not reflective of CA18 point decreases like forgebane as well. I am betting that is why options we saw in leaked pics from DE are not appearing either.
I am just enjoying the mechanics and rules, not too fussed over the points just yet since they will probably change.
I'm surprised the Master of Possession doesn't have FLY after GW making a big deal about him floating around (both in the articles' fluff and on the actual model).
The Captain is interesting because he also has the deep strike denial. But wow is that Instigator Bolt Carbine hot garbage. Heavy 1? It should have been Rapid fire.
Formosa wrote: Venom crawler is worse than a dread at the moment, so it better be around the 80-100pt mark, those stats a do not warrant any higher a cost.
At 9 wounds with no degradation I could see an argument for 140
It has very poor damage output and is too easily killed with T7 10 wounds and degrades, that 5++ is nice though,I am also comparing it to a contemptor that also can regen wounds.
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buddha wrote: Can anyone see the number of attacks for the venom crawler? Seems like a make or break statistic for them.
BrotherGecko wrote: I thought GW usually does a Community article on Saturdays? Did a Canadian steal their thunder? Have they become shook?
Most likely it is they who have leaked these datasheets, and not on their facebook page or any official channel to stem the furious backlash from all the long suffering Chaos players.
BrotherGecko wrote: I thought GW usually does a Community article on Saturdays? Did a Canadian steal their thunder? Have they become shook?
Most likely it is they who have leaked these datasheets, and not on their facebook page or any official channel to stem the furious backlash from all the long suffering Chaos players.
That doesn't seem to be in current character for GW to just throw caution to the wind and hope a leak goes well.
Its pretty interesting how they are late wonder what they are going to do. They still have most of it hidden. But they are probably searching for the guy who leaked or they leaked it on purpose.
BrotherGecko wrote: I thought GW usually does a Community article on Saturdays? Did a Canadian steal their thunder? Have they become shook?
Most likely it is they who have leaked these datasheets, and not on their facebook page or any official channel to stem the furious backlash from all the long suffering Chaos players.
Nah, it wasn't Games Workshop that leaked them. This was definitely not an intentional leak by any means.
Formosa wrote: Venom crawler is worse than a dread at the moment, so it better be around the 80-100pt mark, those stats a do not warrant any higher a cost.
At 9 wounds with no degradation I could see an argument for 140
It has very poor damage output and is too easily killed with T7 10 wounds and degrades, that 5++ is nice though,I am also comparing it to a contemptor that also can regen wounds.
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buddha wrote: Can anyone see the number of attacks for the venom crawler? Seems like a make or break statistic for them.
XT-1984 wrote: Either I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me.
I'm saying they have leaked this through their 'leak department' because they know it will get negative feedback. Probably a lot of it.
Can't have that kind of negativity on their facebook page now can they?
So you're saying that they intentionally leaked it, but not to drive up hype - instead because they anticipated loud dakkanerds would gak up their Facebook page and this way they remain clean?
That's quite the theory. Explosively ridiculous. I like you.
XT-1984 wrote: Either I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me.
I'm saying they have leaked this through their 'leak department' because they know it will get negative feedback. Probably a lot of it.
Can't have that kind of negativity on their facebook page now can they?
Why would you make rules if you know its going to make your customer mad? Wouldn't you just make better rules? Even error on the side of over powered because you have an inbuilt system to adjust down?
I'm not sure what your trying to get across makes sense from GW's perspective.
XT-1984 wrote: Well if you're a member of many 40k facebook groups like I am you'd see they are all on fire about how bad the Chaos half is right now.
Personally I'll wait for the stratagems, relics and warlord traits first but there is no denying people are worked up about it.
I politics any press is good press. In gaming communities bad press is less money. Video games and movies can be sunk by bad early reviews and leaks. Lots of people will back off of coolish models with poor rules. Nobody will back off of coolish models with good/great or OP rules. Even if 2 months later the inevitable nerf bat smashes the good times.
It just makes no sense to generate bad PR if your trying to selling something to a niche community with a chip on its shoulder and the constant threat of withholding money.
angelofvengeance wrote: I should point out, that it's a box set and there are probably going to be some rules that supercede those in said box. Chill out, folks.
I don't think anyone is angry at all. We are just waiting to see it, and most of are more eager about models than the rules
I don't understand the fuss about the chaos half - like it has been said by someone previously, all those rules will most likely change in a few month.
The guy at french wargaming studio said in a live that a black legion codex is coming later this year, most certainly with or after Abaddon. What matter is the new minis.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Captain is interesting because he also has the deep strike denial. But wow is that Instigator Bolt Carbine hot garbage. Heavy 1? It should have been Rapid fire.
Yeah I thought it was assault 2. Heavy 1 is underwhelming - but again most primaris units have been underwhelming.
XT-1984 wrote: Either I'm not understanding you or you're not understanding me.
I'm saying they have leaked this through their 'leak department' because they know it will get negative feedback. Probably a lot of it.
Can't have that kind of negativity on their facebook page now can they?
Why would you make rules if you know its going to make your customer mad? Wouldn't you just make better rules? Even error on the side of over powered because you have an inbuilt system to adjust down?
I'm not sure what your trying to get across makes sense from GW's perspective.
GW releases forces they know are wildly unbalanced and are largely apathetic to that, so there is at least a grain of plausibility there...
WhiteDog wrote: I don't understand the fuss about the chaos half - like it has been said by someone previously, all those rules will most likely change in a few month.
The guy at french wargaming studio said in a live that a black legion codex is coming later this year, most certainly with or after Abaddon. What matter is the new minis.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Captain is interesting because he also has the deep strike denial. But wow is that Instigator Bolt Carbine hot garbage. Heavy 1? It should have been Rapid fire.
Yeah I thought it was assault 2. Heavy 1 is underwhelming - but again most primaris units have been underwhelming.
I am very skeptical of a Black Legion codex, given that BL and Abbadon are the core poster boys of the main CSM codex the same way Ultramarines are the poster boy for the SM codex.
Formosa wrote: Venom crawler is worse than a dread at the moment, so it better be around the 80-100pt mark, those stats a do not warrant any higher a cost.
At 9 wounds with no degradation I could see an argument for 140
It has very poor damage output and is too easily killed with T7 10 wounds and degrades, that 5++ is nice though,I am also comparing it to a contemptor that also can regen wounds.
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buddha wrote: Can anyone see the number of attacks for the venom crawler? Seems like a make or break statistic for them.
6 before it degrades
How did you know its 6?
It was on a chapter master valrak video, looked like 6
WhiteDog wrote: I don't understand the fuss about the chaos half - like it has been said by someone previously, all those rules will most likely change in a few month. The guy at french wargaming studio said in a live that a black legion codex is coming later this year, most certainly with or after Abaddon. What matter is the new minis.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Captain is interesting because he also has the deep strike denial. But wow is that Instigator Bolt Carbine hot garbage. Heavy 1? It should have been Rapid fire.
Yeah I thought it was assault 2. Heavy 1 is underwhelming - but again most primaris units have been underwhelming.
I am very skeptical of a Black Legion codex, given that BL and Abbadon are the core poster boys of the main CSM codex the same way Ultramarines are the poster boy for the SM codex.
Apparently, according to french wargame studio again (and he's always half joking, playing with his friend saying he has seen Abaddon's new rules and not them), the black legion codex is supposed to come after Abaddon later this year. Who knows, he was also saying that there is a new space marine codex coming and that will make them a really agressive army (understable if they all have deepstrike right ?).
Crimson wrote: Right. So the drop lieutenant doesn't even have a reiver comat knife that would give an extra attack, he just has normal CCW that does absolutely nothing. He however has 'knife fighter' special rule, which means that hit rolls of six generate two hits in melee... So pretty much the same end result than if he just had the reiver knife for one extra attack. Utterly pointless. And someone really spend time to write this CC rule for this character which utterly sucks in melee, because he doesn't have a real melee weapon...
It is also unfortunate that even though the reiver knife and chainsword have identical rules, they're different entries, so you still cannot give the captain the Teeth of Terra...
The Primaris units themselves seem nice, but the characters are a complete fail. The Librarian might be good, depending on the powers. It would be unlikely that they'd be worse than standard librarius powers...
To be fair, LTs rule has potential to be much better than combat knife if you luck out with rolls. But yeah, I don't get why Vanguards have 4 different rifles between them when 2 would have sufficed (give captain MC bolt sniper and LT MC marksman carbine and call it a day) and no melee weapon access. The rules also stink of forced 'flavour' instead of balance certain terribad GW writer (who I won't mention to not trigger his blinker defence brigade) loves so much, but at least the lot looks kind of usable and is a handful of buffs here and there away from being good. Hopefully points are OK too, but it does look like a much better effort than the first take at Primaris rules GW did. If only D2 wasn't slapped on everything these days...
If this leak doesn't prove once and for all GW doesn't do leaks, I don't know what will. Think logically, what interest they might have in publishing garbage, potato picture of their products showing them in bad light when they can publish perfect pictures on WC they had made long ago whenever they want?
The silence is interesting, though, I imagine the backlash threatening to sink their new big release before it had even landed had sent them scrambling looking for any possible way out of this...
I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators. Hopefully the kit has plenty of extra rifles the way the Intercessor Squad does.
Also, I would place money on there being 10 Infiltrators in the box, not 5, based on the datasheet. You are required to have a full squad of 5 in order to add a 6th Marine in the form of the Helix Adept. My guess it is two sets of the same sprue and you can build either a Helix Adept or a Sergeant out of the same model.
WhiteDog wrote: I don't understand the fuss about the chaos half - like it has been said by someone previously, all those rules will most likely change in a few month.
The guy at french wargaming studio said in a live that a black legion codex is coming later this year, most certainly with or after Abaddon. What matter is the new minis.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The Captain is interesting because he also has the deep strike denial. But wow is that Instigator Bolt Carbine hot garbage. Heavy 1? It should have been Rapid fire.
Yeah I thought it was assault 2. Heavy 1 is underwhelming - but again most primaris units have been underwhelming.
I am very skeptical of a Black Legion codex, given that BL and Abbadon are the core poster boys of the main CSM codex the same way Ultramarines are the poster boy for the SM codex.
Apparently, according to french wargame studio again (and he's always half joking, playing with his friend saying he has seen Abaddon's new rules and not them), the black legion codex is supposed to come after Abaddon later this year.
Who knows, he was also saying that there is a new space marine codex coming and that will make them a really agressive army (understable if they all have deepstrike right ?).
Well, InControl hinted in a recent podcast that later this year Space Marines will become a brutally good army better than anything else, so those rumors line up.
On the SM side I'm liking the Infiltrators soley because they are new troops with alternative deployment. Characters seem meh at best. The drop autocannon guys have potential due to the grav shoots. Also fun those guys are using the sicaran tank weapon for another heresy throw back. Might have potential in a CC list like blood angels stopping overwatch.
Looking forward to all the chaos models, especially the oblits, but really only matters if DG can take anything.
Lemondish wrote: Drop LT as part of a Crimson Fists Liberator Detachment means on demand access to both reroll auras at once to support other deep strike elements.
Eliminators also use bolt sniper rifles and mortis ammo gives you +2 to hit. That combos pretty nicely with Bolter Drill. Not to mention Slay The Tyrant is a thing. Hopefully, we get squads of 5 or 6 Eliminators so that they are worth using stratagems on.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
Virules wrote: I am very skeptical of a Black Legion codex, given that BL and Abbadon are the core poster boys of the main CSM codex the same way Ultramarines are the poster boy for the SM codex.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
I assume that this box will come with ten Infiltrators, including the Helix Adept. I think I'd rather have two squads of six with the Adept, so I get two anti-DS bubbles. I hope there's enough spare bits so I can convert ETB Reivers into an extra infiltrator and Adept. You of course could just combat squad them, but I'd rather fill FO slots for some CP.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
That is what I was figuring. I am not expecting a full 1:1, but I think converting the backpacks should be easy enough. Throwing extra Infiltrator bits on them should help. At least that is my hope. They don't have chest aquila, which helps significantly. At least then I can put some of my Reiver models to use.
I very well might use three squads of Infiltrators instead of Intercessors for one of my Battalions.
Lemondish wrote: Drop LT as part of a Crimson Fists Liberator Detachment means on demand access to both reroll auras at once to support other deep strike elements.
Eliminators also use bolt sniper rifles and mortis ammo gives you +2 to hit. That combos pretty nicely with Bolter Drill. Not to mention Slay The Tyrant is a thing. Hopefully, we get squads of 5 or 6 Eliminators so that they are worth using stratagems on.
Bolter Drill only works on rapid fire bolter weapons. Also, these are game-breakingly stupid if unit entries in the actual codex become more than three per unit. Do you really want more than nine (currently) models hitting any character on the board on a 2+? That's an instant death option to most characters (namely those in the Toughness 3 realm). That's not good or interesting game design. Doesn't require a stratagem, doesn't cost any CP, and Eliminators are cheap. That's gak game design, and would be even worse with more models per unit.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
I assume that this box will come with ten Infiltrators, including the Helix Adept. I think I'd rather have two squads of six with the Adept, so I get two anti-DS bubbles. I hope there's enough spare bits so I can convert ETB Reivers into an extra infiltrator and Adept. You of course could just combat squad them, but I'd rather fill FO slots for some CP.
According to our dear leaker, there's only 5 infiltrators in the box.
Lemondish wrote: Drop LT as part of a Crimson Fists Liberator Detachment means on demand access to both reroll auras at once to support other deep strike elements.
Eliminators also use bolt sniper rifles and mortis ammo gives you +2 to hit. That combos pretty nicely with Bolter Drill. Not to mention Slay The Tyrant is a thing. Hopefully, we get squads of 5 or 6 Eliminators so that they are worth using stratagems on.
Bolter Drill only works on rapid fire bolter weapons. Also, these are game-breakingly stupid if unit entries in the actual codex become more than three per unit. Do you really want more than nine (currently) models hitting any character on the board on a 2+? That's an instant death option to most characters (namely those in the Toughness 3 realm). That's not good or interesting game design. Doesn't require a stratagem, doesn't cost any CP, and Eliminators are cheap. That's gak game design, and would be even worse with more models per unit.
That's not true at all. Bolter Drill works for any weapon with the word Bolt in the name. I think you are mixing it up with the Beta Bolter Discipline rule.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
I assume that this box will come with ten Infiltrators, including the Helix Adept. I think I'd rather have two squads of six with the Adept, so I get two anti-DS bubbles. I hope there's enough spare bits so I can convert ETB Reivers into an extra infiltrator and Adept. You of course could just combat squad them, but I'd rather fill FO slots for some CP.
According to our dear leaker, there's only 5 infiltrators in the box.
He said he didn't know, and that he was assuming it was only 5.
Elbows wrote: Ah, is Bolter Drill a stratagem or what-not? So you're saying they can become even more silly....sounds swell.
Yes, it is a Stratagem for any squad that fires a weapon with Bolt in the name. On a 6+, they generate an additional to-hit roll (that can't generate more). It really wouldn't add too much, though.
That's not as bad as it could be...but additional hits will still suck. As an Eldar player with Toughness 3 models with 4+ saves, this is basically the death-knell if they show up in large numbers. So much so it wouldn't be worth even playing the game if we see squads of 5-10 of these, etc. If it stays at three, it'll be just "annoying as feth".
He said he didn't know, and that he was assuming it was only 5.
The datasheet gives an option to upgrade to ten, unlike the other datasheets which do not have an option to add squad members. This makes me think that the ten guys actually come in the box. It would also make the sides more balanced.
He said he didn't know, and that he was assuming it was only 5.
The datasheet gives an option to upgrade to ten, unlike the other datasheets which do not have an option to add squad members. This makes me think that the ten guys actually come in the box. It would also make the sides more balanced.
Oh, I totally agree. It would not contain stats for the Helix Adept if there was not one in there.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
That is what I was figuring. I am not expecting a full 1:1, but I think converting the backpacks should be easy enough. Throwing extra Infiltrator bits on them should help. At least that is my hope. They don't have chest aquila, which helps significantly. At least then I can put some of my Reiver models to use.
Small nitpick - they don't have aquilas, but reiver swords-and-skull emblem on chest is different than bones-and-skull of infiltrators. It's a very small detail, though, probably not really visible especially if the rifle is raised high. Reivers also have grenades on chest infiltrators lack, but meh, maybe this infiltrator just took extra load or something.
Funnily enough I was pondering converting my reivers into 'light' intercessor squad with some spare rifles seeing GW seems to have no idea how to fix them, but yeah, going for infiltrators instead might be better idea...
Small nitpick - they don't have aquilas, but reiver swords-and-skull emblem on chest is different than bones-and-skull of infiltrators. It's a very small detail, though, probably not really visible especially if the rifle is raised high. Reivers also have grenades on chest infiltrators lack, but meh, maybe this infiltrator just took extra load or something.
Neither of those are issues for me; I think it is fine to mix bits to get more variety on the squads. I carved the chest eagle off on many of my Intercessors, leaving only the skull, also many of my Intercessors have those chest grenades too, as I think they look cool. Granted, I'd avoid using those bits that have that bigger, different looking grenade, as I assume that that's the shock grenade that only the Reivers have.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators.
They actually have dozens of small differences, certain delusions notwithstanding. But, if you don't care about getting everything 100% perfect, I'd imagine helmet swap (especially to DW pattern) and slight bolter/backpack conversions would suffice to get the point across, especially if you mixed in any leftover Infiltrator bits...
That is what I was figuring. I am not expecting a full 1:1, but I think converting the backpacks should be easy enough. Throwing extra Infiltrator bits on them should help. At least that is my hope. They don't have chest aquila, which helps significantly. At least then I can put some of my Reiver models to use.
Small nitpick - they don't have aquilas, but reiver swords-and-skull emblem on chest is different than bones-and-skull of infiltrators. It's a very small detail, though, probably not really visible especially if the rifle is raised high. Reivers also have grenades on chest infiltrators lack, but meh, maybe this infiltrator just took extra load or something.
Funnily enough I was pondering converting my reivers into 'light' intercessor squad with some spare rifles seeing GW seems to have no idea how to fix them, but yeah, going for infiltrators instead might be better idea...
the grenades are actually separate bits, so that's not really even an issue. The minor change in the chest emblem bug me much either. So it should be an easy enough conversion. Perfect!
Elbows wrote: Ah, is Bolter Drill a stratagem or what-not? So you're saying they can become even more silly....sounds swell.
Yes, it is a Stratagem for any squad that fires a weapon with Bolt in the name. On a 6+, they generate an additional to-hit roll (that can't generate more). It really wouldn't add too much, though.
Positive modifiers increase the the chance for generating more hits. So Bolter Drill on Crimson Fists Intercessors vs a unit twice their size goes off on a 5,6.
Bolter Drill on Crimson Fists Eliminators using Mortis Rounds vs a unit twice their size triggers on a 3+
Bolter Drill on Crimson Fists Eliminators using Mortis Rounds vs a Character goes off on a 4+, when using Slay the Tyrant, it goes off on a 3+
Between awkward sculpt and unfortunate weapons limitations (which so fair they are batting 1000 on primaris characters having poor weapons combinations) that captain is full on bleh. I feel like they’re purposely handicapping primaris HQs at this point so as not to invalidate regular HQs
Between awkward sculpt and unfortunate weapons limitations (which so fair they are batting 1000 on primaris characters having poor weapons combinations) that captain is full on bleh. I feel like they’re purposely handicapping primaris HQs at this point so as not to invalidate regular HQs
Whether it is intentional or not, it is starting to get super infuriating.
casvalremdeikun wrote:the grenades are actually separate bits
Not on ETB reivers, though.
Quasistellar wrote:Yeah that captain. . .
Between awkward sculpt and unfortunate weapons limitations (which so fair they are batting 1000 on primaris characters having poor weapons combinations) that captain is full on bleh. I feel like they’re purposely handicapping primaris HQs at this point so as not to invalidate regular HQs
If so, they are pretty stupid as any min-maxer will tell you bike, pack, or TDA suit of oldmarines is worth more than +1 wound and all it does it shooting new, shiny range in the foot...
BrotherGecko wrote: I thought GW usually does a Community article on Saturdays? Did a Canadian steal their thunder? Have they become shook?
Most likely it is they who have leaked these datasheets, and not on their facebook page or any official channel to stem the furious backlash from all the long suffering Chaos players.
Today was them livestreaming a Grand Tournament for AoS.
I did find my Forgebane booklet as well, it does only feature Skitarii Rangers. Makes me wonder what other stuff will be coming.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I wonder how hard it is going to be to convert Reiver models into Infiltrators. Hopefully the kit has plenty of extra rifles the way the Intercessor Squad does.
Also, I would place money on there being 10 Infiltrators in the box, not 5, based on the datasheet. You are required to have a full squad of 5 in order to add a 6th Marine in the form of the Helix Adept. My guess it is two sets of the same sprue and you can build either a Helix Adept or a Sergeant out of the same model.
It would also make the two sides line up better- 10 troops per, 3 SM characters vs Master of Possession and 2 Greater Posessed, 3 Snipers and 3 heavies vs 3? Obliterators and a vehicle.
No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?
Thats a force of about 400pts that offers up scoring Obsec units, denies deepstrike, and provides 5 CP
z3n1st wrote: No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?
Honestly they could decrease it to 10" not 12"... 12" is excessive. But it is great for anti-cheese but right now deepstrike is already pretty bad.
z3n1st wrote: One unit pretty much singlehandedly shafted an entire codex... that is bad game design
I am now wondering how it interacts with the GSC strategem to deepstrike within 3". Both rules are changes to the standard deepstrike rule- which takes precedent?
z3n1st wrote: No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?
Thats a force of about 400pts that offers up scoring Obsec units, denies deepstrike, and provides 5 CP
Min squad units of primaris haven't been an issue to sweep off the table before it shouldn't be an issue now.
z3n1st wrote: No one sees the issue with 3 units of 5 guys/10 wounds t4 3+ save that can essentially block all but the enemy deployment zone for deepstrike/reinforcements, for most likely less than 300pts...really?
Thats a force of about 400pts that offers up scoring Obsec units, denies deepstrike, and provides 5 CP
Min squad units of primaris haven't been an issue to sweep off the table before it shouldn't be an issue now.
Yeah, exactly. Primaris are not a threat to anyone who has actually played against a non-marine/csm army before. Almost every other codex is vastly more dangerous.
Malefic666 wrote: Any other Chaos players totally bummed by the lacklustre leaks? If the rules I’ve seen are true this release seems more about creating a new keyword, ‘Daemonkin’ than Actually making Possessed work. They still suffer from a lack of an effective delivery mechanism outside of taking Dreadclaws from the Forgeworld book. I hope there’s a lot left to see because a few stronger Possessed with a few more wounds won’t see them on the tables and I have 20 Gal Vorbak I desperately want to use in a Black Legion list.
I mean....rhinos are just fine and they take up one spot. No one else gets 10 2W models into a rhino that I can think of. I just hope the sorcerer gets some buff/debuff spells.
Phobos librarian with tome of malcador is looking pretty solid (2 obscuration/1 librarius) - cant wait to see whats in the new psychic deck.
The number of different variant bolt weapons and inconsistency between naming convention and in game function is beginning to bug me though (i.e. there are now at least 4 different "bolt carbines" which can be assault/rapid/heavy and all with different special abilities).
rhinos are not just fine....70+ player event...not a single rhino in any list lol.....
They are way to many points for what you get esp when compared to what other armies can bring for the points.
An IG Chimera is way better now for almost same point cost- hauls more and has as ton more shots with higher STR/range/AP on about half the shots....yes a 3+ compared to 4+ BS, but with over twice as many shots even counting the new bolter rule the rhino is a piece of crap.
When 8th came out I made myself a good sized "starter set" UltraMarine army using only ETB marines, spare bits, and a couple kits that I had laying around I had no other use for (Imperial Space Marine).
If these guys have decent points costs, I can definitely see use for the Suppressors, Eliminators, and Infiltrators.
I wonder how well Inceptors will mesh with Suppressors?
chaos45 wrote: rhinos are not just fine....70+ player event...not a single rhino in any list lol.....
They are way to many points for what you get esp when compared to what other armies can bring for the points.
An IG Chimera is way better now for almost same point cost- hauls more and has as ton more shots with higher STR/range/AP on about half the shots....yes a 3+ compared to 4+ BS, but with over twice as many shots even counting the new bolter rule the rhino is a piece of crap.
Hauls a ton more T3 models. Woo.
You're right. That 7 points is just murder and totally makes a rhino incapable of carrying things.
From the leaks my initial good bad and ugly based on rules alone. Points costs could change this analysis easily as everything could change to bad or ugly if too much. .
Good:
Infiltrators: Troops choice with alternative deployment and a special ability that messes up deepstrikers.
Obliterators: Bigger and better. Hell they even have a CC weapon now (which makes me wonder the point of mutilators at all now).
Suppressors: FA is not a crowded slot and they can support CC armies preventing overwatch. Plus they are deepstriking heavy weapons which is a mobile option SM armies need.
Bad:
Captain and Lieutenant in phobos armor. Both of these are just worse version of their normal versions.
CSM: Still bad and cool new models (and they are cool) won't change that unfortunately.
Eliminators: Elite 1 shot snipers when they just put out the assassin update? Uh no. Plus they inexplicably put them in heavy support a very contested slot already.
Ugly:
Librarian in Phobos: Infiltrating psyker isn't a bad option regardless, but will likely depend on the psychic discipline.
Master of Possession: A slightly better sorc so nothing great but nothing bad.
Venomcrawler: Not a bad little demon engine putting out 2d3 krak missile shots at top bracket with some okay CC power. However, it also doesn't do anything particularly well which might make it a new defiler (which is not a compliment).
Greater possessed: Interesting elite character that, with the prevalence of demon engines in chaos, could be a good buff without needing a herald.
I like the synergy the Greater Possessed has with the Venom Crawler. The GP boosts the strength of the Venom Crawler, and the VC's Excruciator cannons are based on the model's strength. That give is two Assault D3 lascannons. That's not totally great, but not bad at all.
Kirasu wrote: I love how the guy with knife fighter doesn't have a combat knife but the other characters do.
Someone didnt' read it (the gw team) I was perplexed to find that as well. It was confusing to say the least. And knife fighter is just... ugh give us that for power weapons too at least.
Cause the current ones are really limiting for all races.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: From the leaks my initial good bad and ugly based on rules alone. Points costs could change this analysis easily as everything could change to bad or ugly if too much. .
Good:
Infiltrators: Troops choice with alternative deployment and a special ability that messes up deepstrikers.
Obliterators: Bigger and better. Hell they even have a CC weapon now (which makes me wonder the point of mutilators at all now).
Suppressors: FA is not a crowded slot and they can support CC armies preventing overwatch. Plus they are deepstriking heavy weapons which is a mobile option SM armies need.
Bad:
Captain and Lieutenant in phobos armor. Both of these are just worse version of their normal versions.
CSM: Still bad and cool new models (and they are cool) won't change that unfortunately.
Eliminators: Elite 1 shot snipers when they just put out the assassin update? Uh no. Plus they inexplicably put them in heavy support a very contested slot already.
Ugly:
Librarian in Phobos: Infiltrating psyker isn't a bad option regardless, but will likely depend on the psychic discipline.
Master of Possession: A slightly better sorc so nothing great but nothing bad.
Venomcrawler: Not a bad little demon engine putting out 2d3 krak missile shots at top bracket with some okay CC power. However, it also doesn't do anything particularly well which might make it a new defiler (which is not a compliment).
Greater possessed: Interesting elite character that, with the prevalence of demon engines in chaos, could be a good buff without needing a herald.
Basically. LT and Captain are pretty terrible for what they do.
There needs to be something to make the CSM better and worth taking over cultists... but there won't be.
Eliminators on the other hand I think have potential. I would consider surpressors okayish, but they need a close combat team teamed up with them to maximize them.
You know why you don't see transports in the game now?
Because people didn't like the "first to finish deploying gets to go first" rule and demanded it be changed.
When a 70 point transport with a min sized troop squad and 5 characters lowers your drops by 5 it will suddenly seem worthwhile if it means you almost guarantee first turn.
Models are all gorgeous. From a collector/painter standpoint, they're a must-have.
The rules are all completely underwhelming. Points values could be lower than we're expecting, giving them a good boost, but I'm predicting that they'll be all overpriced because of the abilities they get. If they're well-priced, that could change a lot, but I'm not banking on it.
Also, these will be releasing around the same time that the next Big FAQ should be coming out. There could be a change in there that might make some of these more valuable than they seem on paper. We'll see.
My initial thoughts are this will be the "preset" loadout for the specific unit of CSMs fighting alongside the Master of Possession in that specific engagement, but will only be one available build of a multipart kit.
Past boxsets have had this, usually with named squad leaders.
Hmm... I guess it is possible. Let's hope you're right.
probably similar to what was in other boxed sets like death masque, where you had rules for the guys in the box with set loadouts, but they were the real multipart kits and if you had the codex they could be built however you liked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: as an example, the eldar vs primaris box came with a wraithblades datasheet showing only swords, but it had the full wratihguard/wraithblade kit inside.
drbored wrote: Models are all gorgeous. From a collector/painter standpoint, they're a must-have.
The rules are all completely underwhelming. Points values could be lower than we're expecting, giving them a good boost, but I'm predicting that they'll be all overpriced because of the abilities they get. If they're well-priced, that could change a lot, but I'm not banking on it.
Also, these will be releasing around the same time that the next Big FAQ should be coming out. There could be a change in there that might make some of these more valuable than they seem on paper. We'll see.
I'm reaaaally hoping the venom whatever isn't 140 points with that loadout and that the PL is just considering future options.
Infiltrators I think have a nice spot going forward. Their anti deepstrike utility is a BIG deal and really hurts deepstrikers by pushing back shooting units and outright stopping any chance of deepstriking charges. Their squad medic is nice as he can give the squad just a little bit more juice when they need it and their smoke grenade says in the shooting phase not in your shooting phase so it can be used in the enemies turn which is a BIG advantage for them.
A nice forward screen of them on T1 and T2 really locks down deepstrikers, buy some board control and they are pretty durable with the -1 to hit even without factoring in raven guard synergy for a -2.
The snipers I think are going to be pretty good when paired with a vindicare assassin as they can finish off wounded targets and always be a threat to enemy characters.
The deepstriking heavy weapons guys are pretty solid. Same smoke grenade options as the infiltrators which is nice. Their damage output is alright at s7 ap-2 2 damage with 2 shots. They are not amazing anti tank by any stretch, but if their points are right I can see them getting some good use.
I just started to build Possessed from the Blightkings box. The only thing I'm wondering now is what do I take as even bigger Possessed to represent the Greater one . His rules look impressive, you don't need to ally Daemons in anymore to get that sweet +1 S. I just hope Death Guard gets access to this. Overall the rules look very solid on the Chaos side. Good to see Obliterators go back to 1-3 models, will definitely make me use them more often again.
Looking at my Deathwatch list I'd be looking at swapping out 5 intercessors for the funky new infiltrators to give them a go and also may drop 5 hellblasters for the suppressors for a bit of long range firepower the.
Excited for this release, if there is a new chaos terminator set I'm wanting to do an elite iron warriors army with 2 squads of terminators and some Daemon engines.
Looking at the units, I think the Suppressors do fill a niche in a pure Primaris force ie light tank and transport killing.
However, they seem to work best just set up from the start in the backfield with a cheap Captain or Lt babysitting them. Basically Devastators with autocannon. Their deepstrike shenanigans coupled with Heavy Weapons is just a strange design decision.
Banville wrote: Looking at the units, I think the Suppressors do fill a niche in a pure Primaris force ie light tank and transport killing.
However, they seem to work best just set up from the start in the backfield with a cheap Captain or Lt babysitting them. Basically Devastators with autocannon. Their deepstrike shenanigans coupled with Heavy Weapons is just a strange design decision.
Really love the new models, although I'm impatient to see the Suppressors and Infiltrators. Rules-wise the Suppressors look good to me even though it's a strange mix of rules. But nothing prevents you from setting them normally in your DZ where they should be imo. Playing DA that means they'll reroll their 1s to Hit, manage a kill in a unit my DW Knights want to charge, and bingo they're useful.
The Librarian can be very interesting, I suppose his powers will be rather close-ranged and mainly buffs/debuffs. If he costs less than a Jump Pack Librarian and the powers are good I'll definitely add him.
Having now read the datacards, must admit - this looks like a flop. Don't get me wrong, points would be the ultimate decider but if they are in line with existing units - it'll be a box set of "meh" for me.
CSM - a set loadout mixed between assault and shoot - meaning push-fit models and no customisation. Still unsure why to take these over cultists.
Marines - nothing particularly stand out for Primaris that normal Marines don't do better for the points. Still no assault option, still no good fast attack option and still not worth the points (assumption based on current range)
Greater Posessed - assault only character and missed opportunity for GW to recreate the old Posessed range and buff them to a Primaris style model.
Giant Spider walker thing, still hitting on a 4+ with 2D3 shots. Might as well take a helbrute
We already know that there are other releases to follow this boxed set. Considering the theme of this Chaos expansion is 'possession' it would be odd that if that only extended to two new characters. I definitely wouldn't rule out more Possessed-themed units plus expanded datasheets for some of these units alongside their multi-part kit later.
xttz wrote: We already know that there are other releases to follow this boxed set. Considering the theme of this Chaos expansion is 'possession' it would be odd that if that only extended to two new characters. I definitely wouldn't rule out more Possessed-themed units plus expanded datasheets for some of these units alongside their multi-part kit later.
Stop making sense this is a place for knee jerking and complaints about how bad 40k is
The new phobos captain is not worse than previous primaris captain. He has more or less a master crafted stalker bolter with less range but the ability to hit characters, he can deepstrike, has an anti DS bubble and +1 attack. Sure he is bad, like all primaris captain until now.
Love the Infiltrators and Suppressors! Really hope the Infiltrators and Eliminators get Kill Team rules as well, they would fit so well in that setting. If not you could just play them as Intercessors/Reivers and Scouts with sniper rifles I suppose.
The Captain is really all over the place with his rules, don't like him. The Librarian could be cool, love the model, but need to see his powers!
The Suppressors seem to have cool models, you can just sort of see a glimpse of them in their datasheet:
Overall I'm happy, think these will be a fine start into 40k. I just play 30k right now, and these guys kinda feel like 40k Alpha Legion with their infiltrating shenanigans.
One Primaris kit has zero options, those are the Reivers (unless you call losing your gun in favour of a knife an "option"). I think the new Sniper guys will join them in the One-Option-To-Rule-Them-All stakes.
The rest have 2 opitons, except those lucky Hellblasters who have 3!
So odds on the Suppressors' full kill will have two guns. Here's hoping it's not another gun that does a vaguely similar thing to the first gun, like all the other Primaris units.
Ok so infiltrators are kind of the ultimate board control unit. Set them up on objectives in cover and real effort is required to get rid of them. Genuinely good, so long as their price is reasonable. Their guns are even kind of ok, particularly with bolter drill. It’s arguably perfect for fighting daemons.
Eliminators look good to me too. They are a really serious threat to cheaper buffing characters like warlocks. Being heavy support is a problem but not the end of the world.
Depending on their cost, suppressors might be a better alternative to hellblasters. It’ll be interesting to see the maximum unit size on their proper data sheet too. If you can take 6 or 9 it might be good to stick them in a bastion. Dropping them in doesn’t seem terrible but I think you’d be better off deploying them somewhere out of sight instead.
Together, infiltrators, eliminators and suppressors make the idea of a primaris brigade more viable. I expect they’ll give cheaper fast and heavy options and some variety for troops.
The characters seem ok to me. The drop lieutenant has some value in missions where you need to get characters to objectives. He potentially works well with suppressors and inceptors, though obviously they’d prefer a captain. The librarian entirely depends on his powers really, though the freer deployment is nice to have. The captain seems quite bad, though probably not worse than a normal captain with a gun. I’d never take him over my fist of vengeance guy.
On the chaos side I think it’s very disappointing that the marines’ rules are unchanged. The greater possessed seem kind of useful as an elites pick to run around behind the cultists that you’ll still be taking as troops. Oblitorators are already used, so a buffthere is significant.
I’m confused by the box contents because it seems potentially one-sided. I’m not sure how the marines can deal with the spider and 3 oblits.
If it’s anything like dark imperium then therell be there’ll be 10 infiltrators, 3 eliminators and suppressors and 3 characters on the marine side. It’s harder to guess the chaos stuff because there’s less of a direct comparison with the pox walkers. I expect we’ll see a summoner and 2 posessed, 10 marines, the tick and X oblits.
Of course dark imperium also comes with the full rulebook. I don’t think this is going to have that, so there might be more minis instead.
I could easily see myself using all the primaris guys apart from the characters. If I get the set I’ll sell the chaos bits. I might just wait and see when the full primaris kits come out though.
So odds on the Suppressors' full kill will have two guns. Here's hoping it's not another gun that does a vaguely similar thing to the first gun, like all the other Primaris units.
My money is on the same Autocannon, just with a differently shaped foregrip.
If the Suppressor's do have an alternate gun, then I think the odds are good that it will be something more than a variation on the autocannon. The other two Primaris three man squads(Inceptors and Aggressors) both have two different weapon types. It seems to be the five/ten man squads that stick with variations on a theme.
That said its interesting that there is no speculation about a 2nd weapon loadout for the Eliminators. A mono build infantry squad would be a first for the Primaris range outside of the easy build kits.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If the Suppressor's do have an alternate gun, then I think the odds are good that it will be something more than a variation on the autocannon. The other two Primaris three man squads(Inceptors and Aggressors) both have two different weapon types. It seems to be the five/ten man squads that stick with variations on a theme.
That said its interesting that there is no speculation about a 2nd weapon loadout for the Eliminators. A mono build infantry squad would be a first for the Primaris range outside of the easy build kits.
Maybe but at the same time I think the sheer flexability afforded by the specialist ammo types makes for a lack of a perceived NEED for weapon varients.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Looking at my Deathwatch list I'd be looking at swapping out 5 intercessors for the funky new infiltrators to give them a go and also may drop 5 hellblasters for the suppressors for a bit of long range firepower
Speaking of DW, I wonder how new guys will work with them. I can already see tears if the new guys can take SIA for their bolt weapons for usual price
H.B.M.C. wrote: One Primaris kit has zero options, those are the Reivers (unless you call losing your gun in favour of a knife an "option").
Yup, because heavy bolt pistols don't exist. Must be my imagination or something.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The rest have 2 opitons, except those lucky Hellblasters who have 3!
What are Intercessors for 200? Or vehicles and captains/lieutenants for that matter?
H.B.M.C. wrote: So odds on the Suppressors' full kill will have two guns.
Except this is not a starter set so it makes no sense for GW to make new ETB kits to sell for a month or so. These will be full kits if Infiltrators are any indication.
Sotahullu wrote: I just don't understand why Primaris Marines have such dull options to begin with.
That is the appeal to Space Marines to begin with: Flexbility.
As compared to what? Tactical marine with his bolter, bolter, or bolter? Or assault one with chainsword/pistol?
I never got that complaint, their primaris equivalents have real choices changing how the whole unit plays, if 'dull', and only require full access to sarge table to be able to do much grater range of stuff than old squads ever could. And that is the problem with dumb GW rule writer, not their models. Of course, if they did have all the old options, then local complaint brigade would just switch to 'squat' tune...
Irbis wrote: Yup, because heavy bolt pistols don't exist. Must be my imagination or something.
Every post you make starts with you "Nuur! You are wrong!". It's tiresome.
Irbis wrote: What are Intercessors for 200? Or vehicles and captains/lieutenants for that matter?
Oh yes, you are correct. They have a third bolter. Hard to tell between three things that are all just slightly different.
And I clearly was't talking about vehicles of characters. Lern 2 context.
Irbis wrote: Except this is not a starter set so it makes no sense for GW to make new ETB kits to sell for a month or so. These will be full kits if Infiltrators are any indication.
Based on what? They put out ETB Bigger Dread and Not-Terminators, what's to stop them from doing so here? And everything we've seen indicates that these are starterset minis and not full kits.
Irbis wrote: Yup, because heavy bolt pistols don't exist. Must be my imagination or something.
Every post you make starts with you "Nuur! You are wrong!". It's tiresome.
Irbis wrote: What are Intercessors for 200? Or vehicles and captains/lieutenants for that matter?
Oh yes, you are correct. They have a third bolter. Hard to tell between three things that are all just slightly different.
And I clearly was't talking about vehicles of characters. Lern 2 context.
Irbis wrote: Except this is not a starter set so it makes no sense for GW to make new ETB kits to sell for a month or so. These will be full kits if Infiltrators are any indication.
Based on what? They put out ETB Bigger Dread and Not-Terminators, what's to stop them from doing so here? And everything we've seen indicates that these are starterset minis and not full kits.
To be fair, Irbis started his post talking about Deathwatch... And you were wrong. Intercessors weapons are quite different, especially with the better bolter rules and the additional Veteran upgrades from Vigilus. Plus they have an auxiliary grenade launcher and the sergeant can now take a range of close combat options (they’re not even included in the intercessors box, shock!). I also wouldn’t call the aggressors options “similar”, nor the inceptors for that matter. Other than the fact they’re guns that shoot... because they’re guns.
I think it’s also worth noting the aggressors and redemptor easy to build came out AFTER the full kits, they weren’t included in any box sets.
*edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Tiberius501 wrote: The Suppressers could potentially get missile launchers or las cannons as alternate weapons to the autocannons.
I doubt MLs. They are normally in the over the shoulder cary, and these models look to be guns in front.
I’d put money on gatling cannons. They seem to be pushing them as a primaris heavy weapon, can be modeled with a similar pose, fill a different role then the autocannon, and rotary cannons look cool.
Plus, they can have people get the AC version from this box, and then have to purchase the full standalone box when it comes out for the weapon option that works a lot better with the suppressor platform.
I was aware that some MLs are carried that way, but they are niche FW builds. I’ll stand by my guess that MLs are not on the menu for the suppressors.
Yeah missile launchers are definitely a lot less likely but I could see Las Cannons. The pose fits and could swap the bullet chain for a power wire. And Gatling Cannons are also possible too, I agree.
Mr Insomniac wrote: *edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Just seems weird that the CSM squad would have that set kit if the kit inside can be built however.
Mr Insomniac wrote: *edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Just seems weird that the CSM squad would have that set kit if the kit inside can be built however.
I certainly hope it's a real kit.
Its entirely possible those are more narrative rules for playing the specific missions the set comes with. Much like how the newest kill team releases on Warhammer Community had specific loadouts listed for each unit, and then noted "or you can build them as you like."
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Nothing about the two Obliterators shown suggest multi part, and given the rules for flesh metal guns there is no need to be.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Nothing about the two Obliterators shown suggest multi part, and given the rules for flesh metal guns there is no need to be.
By that logic, most models should be stamped out in a single pose, like back in the days of 2ndEd40K.
Mutli-part will make them interesting, rather than always being the same models in the same pose in every army.
Do not get me wrong H.B.M.C I long for them to be multi part, but the models shown thus far just do not look it to me. Either way the new ones are a massive improvement, IMO, on the old Obliterators. And we are both aware how recent GW kits have seen options minimised or all out removed post Chapterhouse. But as an earlier post of yours said in a few hours we can probably put any such arguments to bed.
Crimson_ wrote: I'd say more like Las-Talons, where you need the Grav-Chutes to migitate the shorter range.
That would make them crazy expensive for such fragile models.
Although looking at the leak, only the sarge needs to give up his shooting to pop smoke, but the unit benefits. Still, I hate having expensive models sitting aruond when you pay for the guns. Will help with surviability though if needed.
Mr Insomniac wrote: *edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Just seems weird that the CSM squad would have that set kit if the kit inside can be built however.
I certainly hope it's a real kit.
Fwiw as I said earlier wake the dead contained fixed load out datasheets, for example only wraith blades rules but it was the full kit.
Mr Insomniac wrote: *edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Just seems weird that the CSM squad would have that set kit if the kit inside can be built however.
I certainly hope it's a real kit.
Fwiw as I said earlier wake the dead contained fixed load out datasheets, for example only wraith blades rules but it was the full kit.
I was going to ask on that one. I couldn't remember on the Ad Mech/Necron one, but I seem to remember it only had Rangers and not Vanguards.
GoatboyBeta wrote: If the Suppressor's do have an alternate gun, then I think the odds are good that it will be something more than a variation on the autocannon. The other two Primaris three man squads(Inceptors and Aggressors) both have two different weapon types. It seems to be the five/ten man squads that stick with variations on a theme.
That said its interesting that there is no speculation about a 2nd weapon loadout for the Eliminators. A mono build infantry squad would be a first for the Primaris range outside of the easy build kits.
Until now, most primaris units had options in terms of the type of gun they use : heavy, assault, pistol or rapid fire. Considering the autocanon they have in the box is heavy, I'm thinking their alternative load out will be something like a S6 rapid fire auto canon or a str 5 assault auto canon. At least, that's how most primaris units have been thought until now.
Mr Insomniac wrote: *edit* GW have also just said this is a “battlebox” on Facebook. If I’m not mistaken, other battlebox releases have contained full kits alongside “limited” datasheets.
Just seems weird that the CSM squad would have that set kit if the kit inside can be built however.
I certainly hope it's a real kit.
Its entirely possible those are more narrative rules for playing the specific missions the set comes with. Much like how the newest kill team releases on Warhammer Community had specific loadouts listed for each unit, and then noted "or you can build them as you like."
Have they stopped naming the "unique" squads in the boxsets? The 7th ed ones had names for the unit. I'm surprised the CSM datasheet doesn't have a name like "Gak's Reavers" or something.
Insane Ivan wrote: GW’s Facebook says the full box contents will be revealed today at 6pm GMT.
That’s a nice surprise. I’d convinced myself that it would be revealed when the Vigilus countdown ended in 2 days time. Maybe that’s when they’ll reveal the new Abaddon?
Mr Insomniac wrote: I think Forgebane only had a datasheet for skitarii rangers also, despite the full kit being included. So there’s certainly precedent.
This is correct.
It also only had the Lychguard and Immortals despite being dual kits as well.
I kinda want it to be a big missile rig, like the old Devastator concept art from 4th Ed that I'm sure eventually led to the Centurion suits and even the Aggressors.
I can't tell if the guy with the smoke bomb solves the rumor engine pic, but I'll be surprised if none of them have it.
Sadly, the other Greater Possessed does solve the foot and claw DREs, which isn't surprising. I'm surprised the oblits don't come in units of three, a la Centurions.
Dem Chaos models tho. Blurry but can make out some cool looking poses and details. The obliterators are a good scale, I expected them to be huge but I'm liking that they're not too much bigger than a marine. Not sure I'm a huge fan of the second Greater Possessed but I'll have to see better Rez images. Great to see 10 infiltrators too.
Irbis wrote: Yup, because heavy bolt pistols don't exist. Must be my imagination or something.
Every post you make starts with you "Nuur! You are wrong!". It's tiresome.
I mean, you *were* wrong. Would you prefer a little preamble before it gets pointed out?
Irbis wrote: What are Intercessors for 200? Or vehicles and captains/lieutenants for that matter?
Oh yes, you are correct. They have a third bolter. Hard to tell between three things that are all just slightly different.
No different than the Hellblasters then. At least the Intercessors all get weapon changes, unlike Tacticals. Sure, the Tacticals can have a single different weapon per 5 of them, but that's still at least 3 guys with no choice.
Irbis wrote: Except this is not a starter set so it makes no sense for GW to make new ETB kits to sell for a month or so. These will be full kits if Infiltrators are any indication.
Based on what? They put out ETB Bigger Dread and Not-Terminators, what's to stop them from doing so here? And everything we've seen indicates that these are starterset minis and not full kits.
I'd be inclined to agree these will be just like the DI ones. Not *quite* ETB (still need glue, no slotted bases), but monopose, most likely - that's not to say they probably can't be converted somewhere, but just that they'll be more like the DI Marines than the ones you might get in the Forgebane, Kill Team, or Tooth and Claw.
I think it's completely likely they might make ETB kits of some of these in the future (most likely Infiltrators and Eliminators), but will probably be multipart sculpts in the future - perhaps alongside a Primaris Marines Codex?
As far as this goes, I think Eliminators might be one of the first actual mono-loadout units, or they might later get some kind of other snipers. Suppressors I can see getting something like onslaught gatlings, or maybe even las-talons. Eliminators might get some options for things a la stalker bolt rifles and auto bolt rifles.
Guess the rumour we only get Abaddon and Termies after isn’t looking particularly well informed (not knocking the sharing poster. They only provided word of a rumour, not the rumour itself)
these flying guys with the heavy weapons look a bit daft. Rest of the box seems nice, if a bit boring (in the sense that we already saw the more interesting minis weeks ago)
There are some nice looking minis in here but there is not enough in the box to float my boat thankfully so I can give this a miss, hopefully there will be more down the line.
Middle left chaos marine has chain axe.
And the auto cannon on the other side.
Interesting that they're mostly set up as pistol/ccw.
Also interesting that they're collectively tagged daemonkin...
Not sure why that would be true for generic CSM
Really don't like several of the primaris poses- some are just goofy (flyers and the guy contorting next to the commander) but many of the rest are just generic downward slanted gun pose.
They're bad enough to change mild interest in the box to not interested.
Sotahullu wrote: Well I really think there is going to be more stuff for CSM.
Well there definitely is.
As Abaddon is coming.
As to anything with him though..
But yeah some unsolved bits that are likely terminators.
I said all along there wouldn’t be Possessed itself (as I feel the kit fits the current theme fine anyway), and looks like that will indeed be the case.
This box is probably a pass, but I imagine the characters are gonna stay in this box like the gravis captain and ancient. The librarian and Lt are the only interesting ones
Oh my GOODNESS those suppressors are hilarious. At this point I have to believe that there is someone within the design team of primaris marines trying to sabotage them by making purposefully comical specialist units.
Like there's one insufferably douchey hyper-realist die hard Call of Duty fan deisgning the intercessors and reivers and eliminators, and the other guy they've assigned to the project just keeps coming up with the silliest looking designs possible so he can shove them side by side together in the same box.
"BRO! Bro, I came up with the most KILLER design for this bad-ass sniper unit they are going to have sights and goggles and camo cloaks and they are going to look so fething AWESOME, I just need you to make them a commander dude, someone awesome and subtle and sneaky looking."
"Oh yeah, Chad, don't worry, I've got the design all figured out...."
God those flying firemen are awful. No way I'm mounting mine that way.
Now I have to figure out my path forward. I don't know if Deathwatch will have access to these guys, but I could add them to my Dark Angels or finally start a pure Primaris force with my other extras that I have lying around.
Those Flying Primaris seem really odd both in how they've been modeled and the specific idea. The concept of dropping in a heavy-weapon Marine from high altitude is something that isn't bad in itself, if they had been some sort of massive railgun or similar powerful single-shot weapon then having to use the thrusters to counter the recoil (kinda like the Tau Broadside anchoring themselves in place) then that could have been interesting, but why an autocannon of all things?
bullyboy wrote: God those flying firemen are awful. No way I'm mounting mine that way.
Now I have to figure out my path forward. I don't know if Deathwatch will have access to these guys, but I could add them to my Dark Angels or finally start a pure Primaris force with my other extras that I have lying around.
Completely agree on the looks of the Suppressors. I don't think they have the Fly keyword, do they? They just drop down and then are stabilised. They're missing the T5 of actual Gravis armour, too.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Those Flying Primaris seem really odd both in how they've been modeled and the specific idea. The concept of dropping in a heavy-weapon Marine from high altitude is something that isn't bad in itself, if they had been some sort of massive railgun or similar powerful single-shot weapon then having to use the thrusters to counter the recoil (kinda like the Tau Broadside anchoring themselves in place) then that could have been interesting, but why an autocannon of all things?
They should of used the inceptor armor. The bulk would have helped them look less goofy.
Plus they would of looked like primaris Tallgeese.
I kind of like the suppressors actually. I mean they are mad, but fun. They’d be spectacularly inaccurate of course. The lieutenant looks decent too.
The infiltrators have some good poses too, but it does look like there are duplicates. This could be because GW were lazy and only built 4 guys, or because they are monopose. Honestly I think it’s the latter. We’ll see at 6.
Mandragola wrote: I kind of like the suppressors actually. I mean they are mad, but fun. They’d be spectacularly inaccurate of course. The lieutenant looks decent too.
The infiltrators have some good poses too, but it does look like there are duplicates. This could be because GW were lazy and only built 4 guys, or because they are monopose. Honestly I think it’s the latter. We’ll see at 6.
Go look at the sprues for the Reivers, Hellblasters, or Intercessors.
There are not 10 unique bodies. There's 5. They're doubled sprues. It's the whole reason why we've seen 5 mans for them in Wake the Dead and Tooth+Claw.
Mandragola wrote: I kind of like the suppressors actually. I mean they are mad, but fun. They’d be spectacularly inaccurate of course. The lieutenant looks decent too.
The infiltrators have some good poses too, but it does look like there are duplicates. This could be because GW were lazy and only built 4 guys, or because they are monopose. Honestly I think it’s the latter. We’ll see at 6.
Go look at the sprues for the Reivers, Hellblasters, or Intercessors.
There are not 10 unique bodies. There's 5. They're doubled sprues. It's the whole reason why we've seen 5 mans for them in Wake the Dead and Tooth+Claw.
But they have the exact same arms and arm poses. That's not something they would show in an instruction unless you only have these models. Intercessors and reivers have a variety of arm and head options when they are multi part.
But they have the exact same arms and arm poses. That's not something they would show in an instruction unless you only have these models. Intercessors and reivers have a variety of arm and head options when they are multi part.
Did we see the inside of the instruction booklet? Because the Reivers have no Bolt Carbines otherwise, if we go off your logic.
I mean if we're going off what was "spoiled" yesterday, wasn't it really spoiled at the Las Vegas Open when they posted the box's existence and the cover art?
Quite certain there's a blurred chaos marine with a lascannon in the background in that video.
Havocs may be happening indeed.
I think the suppressors will have other weapon options when they finally get a kit. Some form of multi-launcher missile pack would be cool, like a cyclone missile launcher of sorts rule wise. Especially if you could choose missile ammo.
Reviers would fit so so so well with this force if they sorted out their rules/loadout. Those stub pistols with power knives would be awesome. or even a different form of chainsword that gave -1ap with additional attacks of normal chainsord.
I’m intrigued that 6 out of 10 infiltrators and 2 of the flying autocannon dudes are duplicates, while every other model seems to be unique (including every single CSM). I guess that means at least the Space Marines are all monopose, but still doesn’t give a definite answer for the CSM. The earlier spotted Melta and Heavy Bolter are definitely not shown in this reveal.
I was expecting the Black Legion as the Chaos faction, not the Daemonkin. The CSM seem to have a 5 man melee squad and a 5 man shooting squad.
The chaos models are nice, but I will just get the 2 new Possessed. The rest I either already have or don´t want to add to my force.
All in all a good box to kickstart the chaos release. Like Dark Imperium did for the Death Guard.
Looks great. Aside from the abundance of bare heads on the Vanguard side
My only concern is how compatible the Phobos armoured Marines are with existing sculpted shoulder pads. Some of them look like they need that small cut out on the left pauldron to fit properly.
I'm really digging all of it (though the flying SM are a bit silly, I don't mind it). I'm hoping we get some KT rules for these guys so GW can give me a reason to buy this boxed set.
New Chaos Marines look great. I particularly dig the Autocannon guy. SM librarian and new SM type look good too.
stormcraft wrote: Soo, minicodexes with traits and stuff? Thats a suprise
I'm not sure how I feel about it. I don't want to have to set aside another detachment to get their traits and stratagems, so, hopefully there is a clause for these that lets them fold into mainline CSM easily.
Not keen on the infiltrators dunno what it is, it's like theyv made marines not marines anymore but something else like halo or something. Like holding the pistol grip it just seems to modern looking... why would a space marine need to steady his aim like that the recoil won't move his arm
Good find. And honestly I’d be amazed if there weren’t full kids coming.
These guys aren’t full kits, they are like the ones in dark imperium. You can see three pairs of identical interceptors and one pair each of the eliminators and suppressors - with different head positions.
This is fine. I’m actually painting up some dark imperium guys now along with full kit intercessors. You can hardly tell the difference. I’ll probably get this set and then mix them in with full kit guys when they appear.
Overall it looks great. Now let’s see those points (and traits, and psychic powers... and maybe stratagems)!
Back in the day, when I started 40k there was this meme of STEALTH MARINES doing the rounds. Little did we know that mere 15 years later we got real stealth marines on our hands.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Quite certain there's a blurred chaos marine with a lascannon in the background in that video.
Havocs may be happening indeed.
I think the suppressors will have other weapon options when they finally get a kit. Some form of multi-launcher missile pack would be cool, like a cyclone missile launcher of sorts rule wise. Especially if you could choose missile ammo.
Reviers would fit so so so well with this force if they sorted out their rules/loadout. Those stub pistols with power knives would be awesome. or even a different form of chainsword that gave -1ap with additional attacks of normal chainsord.
Watched the video a couple of times, pretty certain there’s no models in it that aren’t in the box. Couldn’t see a lascannon anywhere. Where abouts do you see it?
Damn it. After looking at the Vanguard group shot, it does look like these are DI style monopose/pushfit kits The two Suppressor troopers and a few of the Infiltrators have purity seals and other small details in exactly the same place, but there heads are at a slightly different angle.
Oh well at least my wallet will be getting a temporary reprieve.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Quite certain there's a blurred chaos marine with a lascannon in the background in that video.
Havocs may be happening indeed.
I think the suppressors will have other weapon options when they finally get a kit. Some form of multi-launcher missile pack would be cool, like a cyclone missile launcher of sorts rule wise. Especially if you could choose missile ammo.
Reviers would fit so so so well with this force if they sorted out their rules/loadout. Those stub pistols with power knives would be awesome. or even a different form of chainsword that gave -1ap with additional attacks of normal chainsord.
Watched the video a couple of times, pretty certain there’s no models in it that aren’t in the box. Couldn’t see a lascannon anywhere. Where abouts do you see it?
In the background 7 or 8 second in on one of the platforms in the rear that is blurred. I say it's a lascannon as it doesn't have the underslung rail the autocannon has. If it isn't a lascannon, it is not actually attached to the mini and is part of the terrain but I can't see how it would be.
Odd that there is so much repetition amongst the Primaris side (six Scouty dudes, 2 sniper dudes and 2 grav chute dudes being the same bar different head sculpts) and none that I can see on the Chaos side.
The two Suppressor troopers and a few of the Infiltrators have purity seals and other small details in exactly the same place, but there heads are at a slightly different angle.
