Daedalus81 wrote: I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.
Not even close, D.
The "wAiT aNd SeE" meme isn't denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts before leaping to conclusions. It's ridiculing those that are too stubborn to engage in any level of speculation and those who refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever, no matter the situation, and that now no matter how much is reported, there's always still more to 'wait' for.
Also, that even with the text in front of them (like the Eldritch Omens Autarch rules), in black and white for all the world to see, they will stubbornly insist that it will magically be different in a book that already went to print.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.
Not even close, D.
The "wAiT aNd SeE" meme isn't denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts before leaping to conclusions. It's ridiculing those that are too stubborn to engage in any level of speculation and those who refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever, no matter the situation, and that now no matter how much is reported, there's always still more to 'wait' for.
Also, that even with the text in front of them (like the Eldritch Omens Autarch rules), in black and white for all the world to see, they will stubbornly insist that it will magically be different in a book that already went to print.
Nah, the Autarch thing is something the fans just have to browbeat GW on so they can give us the loadouts that should be available.
Worked with the Worldclaimer + Raptors fiasco, should work here.
Daedalus81 wrote: I find it kind of sad that the hive mind has popularized denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts in front of them being making a judgement or reaction.
Not even close, D.
The "wAiT aNd SeE" meme isn't denigrating the idea that a person should have all the facts before leaping to conclusions. It's ridiculing those that are too stubborn to engage in any level of speculation and those who refuse to draw any conclusions whatsoever, no matter the situation, and that now no matter how much is reported, there's always still more to 'wait' for.
Also, that even with the text in front of them (like the Eldritch Omens Autarch rules), in black and white for all the world to see, they will stubbornly insist that it will magically be different in a book that already went to print.
Nah, the Autarch thing is something the fans just have to browbeat GW on so they can give us the loadouts that should be available.
Worked with the Worldclaimer + Raptors fiasco, should work here.
Worldclaimer never got to use his spear in melee. So oh well.
That's great and all, but I'd trade every word of these extra multi-layered rules for the ability to just give my Exalted Champion any weapons I choose.
The old school rending rule. Very nice coupled with CSM buffed attacks and all the melee other rules we're getting. It's a shame is Khorne specific though. Oh well...can't wait to see what Slaanesh and Nurgle get.
How exactly are those Night Lords Chosen going to "flatout wipe the floor" with their whopping two combi-meltas?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's great and all, but I'd trade every word of these extra multi-layered rules for the ability to just give my Exalted Champion any weapons I choose.
And I'd trade them for jump packs for my characters.
Gadzilla666 wrote: How exactly are those Night Lords Chosen going to "flatout wipe the floor" with their whopping two combi-meltas?
You got me there. I think he's alluding to Chosen having two of these warband traits. So maybe along with the +4" to range other than grenade and relics. That's something I suppose.
Gadzilla666 wrote: How exactly are those Night Lords Chosen going to "flatout wipe the floor" with their whopping two combi-meltas?
You got me there. I think he's alluding to Chosen having two of these warband traits. So maybe along with the +4" to range other than grenade and relics. That's something I suppose.
The leak says that they get one, in addition to the actual Legion trait. So the only way they could have the Tzeentch trait and the +4 range trait is if you were running a custom warband, at which point you wouldn't be getting the Night Lords trait.
Oh...you're right. Okay, I have no idea what he's going on about either. Gaining +1 to wound and re-rolling 1 to wound isn't a bad combo in melee though, assuming you can get them there.
My comment was based on the fact that chosen can be taken in in squads of 10, 4 meltas with +1 to wound and rerolling 1 to wound or 1 damage roll, is nothing to scoff at.
clockworkchris9 wrote: My comment was based on the fact that chosen can be taken in in squads of 10, 4 meltas with +1 to wound and rerolling 1 to wound or 1 damage roll, is nothing to scoff at.
I can scoff at it when the points are going to be over 200 for that.
clockworkchris9 wrote: My comment was based on the fact that chosen can be taken in in squads of 10, 4 meltas with +1 to wound and rerolling 1 to wound or 1 damage roll, is nothing to scoff at.
I can scoff at it when the points are going to be over 200 for that.
Never are the points going to be under 200
We can assume csm get the Same pricetag as Tac marines, there is no Way that chosen remains under sternguard pts wise unless gw seriously cranked up the codex creep.
The mere fact that you need 10 chosen to Make a dedicated at sqaud in the first place is stupid enough, without access to droppods.
clockworkchris9 wrote: My comment was based on the fact that chosen can be taken in in squads of 10, 4 meltas with +1 to wound and rerolling 1 to wound or 1 damage roll, is nothing to scoff at.
I can scoff at it when the points are going to be over 200 for that.
Never are the points going to be under 200
We can assume csm get the Same pricetag as Tac marines, there is no Way that chosen remains under sternguard pts wise unless gw seriously cranked up the codex creep.
The mere fact that you need 10 chosen to Make a dedicated at sqaud in the first place is stupid enough, without access to droppods.
They'll be more expensive than Sternguard. An extra wound, attack, considerably better melee capability, and the "free" trait. And even if you paid the 115 PPM for the Dreadclaw, you'd: 1; come down outside of melta range, and 2; outside of the range of the Night Lords leadership debuff, meaning unless you have another unit within 9', the "super doctrine" would only work on a L6 or less vehicle. No, of these I'd definitely go with Khorne. But seriously, it's probably better to go Nurgle, because at least then they might survive long enough to actually do something.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's great and all, but I'd trade every word of these extra multi-layered rules for the ability to just give my Exalted Champion any weapons I choose.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's great and all, but I'd trade every word of these extra multi-layered rules for the ability to just give my Exalted Champion any weapons I choose.
Drachnyen has pierce and sweep profile.
8A/S10/AP-4/Dam D3/6+ to wound causes D3 MW 16A/S7/AP-4/Dam 1
Always fights first
-1 to wound
First failed save reduced to 0 damage
+1S on the charge
Can only take max 3 damage per phase
Full rerolls
Charge bonus
Supposedly very pricy (would be around 300 ish points)
Custom traits:
After charging, in melee 6s to hit auto wound (Khorne specific)
In melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (Tzeentch specific)
+1 to wound vs half strength unit (Nurgle specific)
+1ap on a 6 to wound unmodified (Slaanesh specific)
+1 to advance and charge rolls
+1 to hit when targeting closest enemy unit
+1 movement & strength
+4" to range other than grenade and relic
After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game
If you take this one you can't take a second custom trait, also Chosen can't take this one:
Ignore CA Fallback and shoot & fallback and charge, but with -1 to hit for the rest of the turn (unmarked specific, so no marks allowed)
Also he says there are no HQ upgrades like space marines. We get marks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hopefully, EC Chosen are not locked to the Slaanesh Specific custom trait. They're already AP-3 with +1AP on an unmodified 6 to wound.
I assume that marked units can't take other gods specific traits so: +1 to advance and charge rolls, or +1 movement & strength would work nicely.
Hmm....now I think I can build a real Night Lords Legion trait. I'm thinking, +1 to charge and advance and +1 to strength and movement, add Marks and Icons to taste per unit. Go straight for their throats.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Hmm....now I think I can build a real Night Lords Legion trait. I'm thinking, +1 to charge and advance and +1 to strength and movement, add Marks and Icons to taste per unit. Go straight for their throats.
Now if only we could build a real CSM codex we'd be getting somewhere
Daedalus81 wrote:Hurrr...Abaddon with 3 per phase...no more character protection?
Possibly going to 10+ wounds?
NinthMusketeer wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Hmm....now I think I can build a real Night Lords Legion trait. I'm thinking, +1 to charge and advance and +1 to strength and movement, add Marks and Icons to taste per unit. Go straight for their throats.
Now if only we could build a real CSM codex we'd be getting somewhere
That's easy. Take a copy of 3.5, write "THESE ARE A HEAVY SUPPORT CHOICE" above the Obliterators entry, and then you take a permanent marker and mark out Siren. Done.
Drachnyen has pierce and sweep profile.
8A/S10/AP-4/Dam D3/6+ to wound causes D3 MW 16A/S7/AP-4/Dam 1
Always fights first
-1 to wound
First failed save reduced to 0 damage
+1S on the charge
Can only take max 3 damage per phase
Full rerolls
Charge bonus
Supposedly very pricy (would be around 300 ish points)
Custom traits:
After charging, in melee 6s to hit auto wound (Khorne specific)
In melee or shooting, reroll 1 wound or 1 damage (Tzeentch specific)
+1 to wound vs half strength unit (Nurgle specific)
+1ap on a 6 to wound unmodified (Slaanesh specific)
+1 to advance and charge rolls
+1 to hit when targeting closest enemy unit
+1 movement & strength
+4" to range other than grenade and relic
After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game
If you take this one you can't take a second custom trait, also Chosen can't take this one:
Ignore CA Fallback and shoot & fallback and charge, but with -1 to hit for the rest of the turn (unmarked specific, so no marks allowed)
Also he says there are no HQ upgrades like space marines. We get marks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hopefully, EC Chosen are not locked to the Slaanesh Specific custom trait. They're already AP-3 with +1AP on an unmodified 6 to wound.
I assume that marked units can't take other gods specific traits so: +1 to advance and charge rolls, or +1 movement & strength would work nicely.
Abaddon lookss spicy but I think you could see most of those changes coming tbf (-1W, re-rolls, FF, Drach to -4 and doing MW and also having two profiles), the only one that takes me by surprise is the ignoring damage on the first unsaved wound. I wonder what the ToH will do now then? Probably just a D3 PF I bet or maybe toned down to be like a DP talon (making an extra attack or two) that hits like a slightly stronger LC.
Daedalus81 wrote:I would think he'll be like C'Tan at W9. I don't think we've seen phase limiting go beyond three times the limit.
He has the Tzeentch save and he's a smaller model so he'll probably be ok, but just feels weird at the moment.
Possibly. He still sounds pretty durable, even without character protection.
But, OH! The first "Unmarked" Legion trait! That could work, as long as the -1 to hit only applies to shooting, and not melee. Ignoring CA doesn't sound very "Night Lords" though. Be interesting to see the other Unmarked traits
Daedalus81 wrote:I would think he'll be like C'Tan at W9. I don't think we've seen phase limiting go beyond three times the limit.
He has the Tzeentch save and he's a smaller model so he'll probably be ok, but just feels weird at the moment.
Possibly. He still sounds pretty durable, even without character protection.
But, OH! The first "Unmarked" Legion trait! That could work, as long as the -1 to hit only applies to shooting, and not melee. Ignoring CA doesn't sound very "Night Lords" though. Be interesting to see the other Unmarked traits
Daedalus81 wrote:I would think he'll be like C'Tan at W9. I don't think we've seen phase limiting go beyond three times the limit.
He has the Tzeentch save and he's a smaller model so he'll probably be ok, but just feels weird at the moment.
Possibly. He still sounds pretty durable, even without character protection.
But, OH! The first "Unmarked" Legion trait! That could work, as long as the -1 to hit only applies to shooting, and not melee. Ignoring CA doesn't sound very "Night Lords" though. Be interesting to see the other Unmarked traits
It's also coming through a game of "telephone" between the actual leaker and Clockworkchris. That's why it went from "everything gets a Legion trait" to "everything gets a Legion trait EXCEPT Cultists". Sometimes information gets muddled in the transcription process. They've been making Dd3 weapons do a flat number of damage all through 9th edition codexes. I doubt they'll leave Abby out. I just hope that they do the same for the Claws of the Black Hunt.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.
And why can the Warpsmith only buff DAEMON ENGINES, instead of just VEHICLES? Did he forget how normal vehicles work? He can only do "Giant Evil Spiders" and dinobots now?
And only one available loadout for Exalted Champions? Based on an old kit? Good grief, I hope these particular playtest rules failed so hard that they took them out back and burned them.
Posted a correction, disco lord and warpsmit affect vehicules with their +1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Hmm....now I think I can build a real Night Lords Legion trait. I'm thinking, +1 to charge and advance and +1 to strength and movement, add Marks and Icons to taste per unit. Go straight for their throats.
You can also stick with the night lords legion trait and give chosen the custom +1 advance and charge for chosen that have +2 to advance and charge.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So if Night Lords want their trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, gw can't read the fluff in their own codexes. Way to go.
And why can the Warpsmith only buff DAEMON ENGINES, instead of just VEHICLES? Did he forget how normal vehicles work? He can only do "Giant Evil Spiders" and dinobots now?
And only one available loadout for Exalted Champions? Based on an old kit? Good grief, I hope these particular playtest rules failed so hard that they took them out back and burned them.
Posted a correction, disco lord and warpsmit affect vehicules with their +1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Hmm....now I think I can build a real Night Lords Legion trait. I'm thinking, +1 to charge and advance and +1 to strength and movement, add Marks and Icons to taste per unit. Go straight for their throats.
You can also stick with the night lords legion trait and give chosen the custom +1 advance and charge for chosen that have +2 to advance and charge.
Interesting stuff. Chosen with +2 to advance and charge would be pretty silly.
Now we just need the warlord traits and relics and points values and we'll practically have the whole codex, and then to wait another month or two for the official release.
clockworkchris9 wrote: Posted a correction, disco lord and warpsmit affect vehicules with their +1 to hit.
Yeah, saw that. Groovy. Might have to get/convert one to park behind the Fellblade. Let my Sorcerer go do something else.
You can also stick with the night lords legion trait and give chosen the custom +1 advance and charge for chosen that have +2 to advance and charge.
Erggh....not sure at this point. It depends how they handle the WTs and Relics. I really don't want to give up Killing Fury + Claws of the Black Hunt for my Chaos Lord, but I'm also pretty tired of morale mechanics that don't work on most of the other factions in the game. Even with 3.5 having to pay for Daemonic Visage for my Raptors felt like a waste most of the time. We'll see once we get the rest of the custom traits, especially the Unmarked ones.
Hey, could you possibly clear up Abbaddon's damage for the Black Legion players? Is it D3, or Dd3?
clockworkchris9 wrote: Posted a correction, disco lord and warpsmit affect vehicules with their +1 to hit.
Yeah, saw that. Groovy. Might have to get/convert one to park behind the Fellblade. Let my Sorcerer go do something else.
You can also stick with the night lords legion trait and give chosen the custom +1 advance and charge for chosen that have +2 to advance and charge.
Erggh....not sure at this point. It depends how they handle the WTs and Relics. I really don't want to give up Killing Fury + Claws of the Black Hunt for my Chaos Lord, but I'm also pretty tired of morale mechanics that don't work on most of the other factions in the game. Even with 3.5 having to pay for Daemonic Visage for my Raptors felt like a waste most of the time. We'll see once we get the rest of the custom traits, especially the Unmarked ones.
Hey, could you possibly clear up Abbaddon's damage for the Black Legion players? Is it D3, or Dd3?
Another thing in favor of morale shenanigans, I got info on the nid codex, synapse still lets nids ignore morale, but now its only a 6'' range and it might be an AURA. so really good.
One thing that I'm worried about is that the World Eaters will get left in the lurch for a period of time after the CSM codex is released, being left with old models and rules while the rest of CSM move on.
ArcaneHorror wrote: One thing that I'm worried about is that the World Eaters will get left in the lurch for a period of time after the CSM codex is released, being left with old models and rules while the rest of CSM move on.
In the grand scheme of things, this shouldn't be a very long period of time. I feel for World Eaters players that will just want to play with their Berzerkers in the interim time period, but I can't imagine that World Eaters will have to wait for too long to get their own Codex, new models, and Angron.
Of course, I say that, and some crazy world event will happen that'll delay World Eaters and Emperor's Children to 2047.
I could imagine GW to release WE first and then CSM, or at least announce WE when CSM drop as people will certainly get confused with WE missing in the tome. My biggest fear is that CSM dex was initially sheduled for early 9th Ed and that it was postponed due to logistical reasons. Worst case would be that CSM receive a book that falls out from power creep due to this ,time capsule’ effect. Powerlevel from the current rules looks a bit like that tbh
Btw it is a hellish Nightmare to start WE or CSM now…
ArcaneHorror wrote: One thing that I'm worried about is that the World Eaters will get left in the lurch for a period of time after the CSM codex is released, being left with old models and rules while the rest of CSM move on.
In the grand scheme of things, this shouldn't be a very long period of time. I feel for World Eaters players that will just want to play with their Berzerkers in the interim time period, but I can't imagine that World Eaters will have to wait for too long to get their own Codex, new models, and Angron.
Of course, I say that, and some crazy world event will happen that'll delay World Eaters and Emperor's Children to 2047.
Or World Eaters will get a WD or Warhammer Community supplement until the full codex is ready.
2x210 wrote: Murder Sword is gone as a relic, I'm legitimately worried that means Chaos Lords won't have access to power swords, or are equipment locked.
Given there isn't a generic stock "chaos lord" as such, I can't see them equipment locking it.
2x210 wrote: Murder Sword is gone as a relic, I'm legitimately worried that means Chaos Lords won't have access to power swords, or are equipment locked.
Given there isn't a generic stock "chaos lord" as such, I can't see them equipment locking it.
Of course Chaos Marines would be the one faction that wouldn't get broad access to Transhuman Phys. Though iirc, it's only Primaris units that get it in the regular Space Marine dex and the firstborn don't get it, so I suppose to a degree it makes sense. But then, with how the balance is going, with how valuable Transhuman Phys. is is a strat, I see a lot of people leaning to Nurgle stuff just for that.
I'm in the camp that would love to see all versions of Transhuman go the way of the dodo, but if you're handing it out to everyone, then hand it out to everyone.
drbored wrote: Though iirc, it's only Primaris units that get it in the regular Space Marine dex and the firstborn don't get it, so I suppose to a degree it makes sense.
drbored wrote: Though iirc, it's only Primaris units that get it in the regular Space Marine dex and the firstborn don't get it, so I suppose to a degree it makes sense.
drbored wrote: Though iirc, it's only Primaris units that get it in the regular Space Marine dex and the firstborn don't get it, so I suppose to a degree it makes sense.
Cadians get a version of transhuman.
Nothing makes sense with that awful strat.
They are slowly evolving 40k over to the AoS style of fixed wound rolls
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Which means there's a large chance that the 9th ed Chaos Lord will be locked to only Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol.
Would that surprise anyone?
Surprise? No. Absolutely and totally INFURIATE? Yes, yes it would.
Sersi wrote:
Some more info this morning.
-legions do not get their own spells
-daemonforge strat is still there, now its +1 BS/WS for daemon engines
-dank apostles can give out 4++ instead of 5++
-biker strat, if they advance -1 to hit
So some info and corrections
-transhuman is there but only available to nurgle units
-dank apostle still has a 4++, but no longer has the invul bubble prayer
-No murdersword
-No new daemon engine
CSM get Trans-human Physiology...but is locked to mark of Nurgle. Pain.
I'd rather we didn't have that garbage in the first place. I hate those damned stratagems. At least they found the spot to stick it where it will be the least useful.
drbored wrote: Though iirc, it's only Primaris units that get it in the regular Space Marine dex and the firstborn don't get it, so I suppose to a degree it makes sense.
Cadians get a version of transhuman.
Nothing makes sense with that awful strat.
I take it all back, burn all transhuman strats.
Now you're getting it. Now just remove the word "transhuman" and that sentence is perfect.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Now you're getting it. Now just remove the word "transhuman" and that sentence is perfect.
Let it be the end of the age of Stratagems !
I'm kidding, but it's true that things are going out of hand with strats. Like, the -1 to be hit of the bickers when advancing could just as well always be on. And when you look at the jumble of keywords in the leaked Tyranid data sheets I fear for ours...
l0k1 wrote: So, Nurgle marked CSM units can get trash human......but Death Guard can't? That's just plain stupid.
Only thing consistent about GW's releases and rules designs is how inconsistent they are.
There's lots of people all over the internet suggesting a hundred ways to handle stratagems (or remove them completely) that would help the game. Everything from extreme changes to the game like alternating activations, to small things like trimming the stratagems that each book gets by half. Some suggest getting rid of stratagems and command points entirely and just having a few generic abilities that you can use once per game, or having maybe 6 stratagems that you get to use one of per Battle Round, with no command point generation or anything like that to worry about.
There's the way that AoS does it, where you build up command points over time, but they're still relatively limited, giving you maybe one or two things you can do per turn throughout the game, and the way Kill Team does it where you only have 2-3 command points to work with and only about 6 stratagems to use, some of which affect your whole force, some of which are more situational.
Titanicus, Necromunda, all of these games have 1/4th or even only 1/6th of the number of stratagems that 40k has, and they're so, so, so much easier to get into.
And that's just one area that 9th ed could be improved upon...
l0k1 wrote: So, Nurgle marked CSM units can get trash human......but Death Guard can't? That's just plain stupid.
Clearly, the normal nurgle worshippers are more devoted than the scrubs of the death guard.
and even though there are "Nurgle" warbands that makes sense, like the bio-chemical warcrime division of imperial japan but in speesh that are the "Purge", it still is of great insight into the gw-rulesteam communication and general design coordination.
aka non, seemingly
l0k1 wrote: So, Nurgle marked CSM units can get trash human......but Death Guard can't? That's just plain stupid.
Clearly, the normal nurgle worshippers are more devoted than the scrubs of the death guard.
and even though there are "Nurgle" warbands that makes sense, like the bio-chemical warcrime division of imperial japan but in speesh that are the "Purge", it still is of great insight into the gw-rulesteam communication and general design coordination.
aka non, seemingly
God I wish we got some cool chemical weapon units for Nurgle marked Chaos Space Marines; Chem munitions, Phosphex, Rad weapons, etc.
l0k1 wrote: So, Nurgle marked CSM units can get trash human......but Death Guard can't? That's just plain stupid.
Clearly, the normal nurgle worshippers are more devoted than the scrubs of the death guard.
and even though there are "Nurgle" warbands that makes sense, like the bio-chemical warcrime division of imperial japan but in speesh that are the "Purge", it still is of great insight into the gw-rulesteam communication and general design coordination.
aka non, seemingly
God I wish we got some cool chemical weapon units for Nurgle marked Chaos Space Marines; Chem munitions, Phosphex, Rad weapons, etc.
We had that, with the purge formation in 7th, which made templates dangerous terrain that lingered for a turn and better AP at the cost of getting hot i believe?
Problem was that some "very smart guy" decided to not tie it specifically to CSM, which allowed R&H which counted as CSM for battleforce organisation (and therefore was able to pick CSM formations) to take advantage of it, specifically the Vraks branch which could make artillery (thuddguns and heavy mortars) into troops...
Not much fun if half the map is now dangerous terrain, nvm you were then talking about t7 3+ sv troop choices thanks to how artillery worked. Oi you wanted to deepstrike there, better start rolling those mishap tables and say goodbye to your movement.
drbored wrote: ... Necromunda, ... [has] 1/4th or even only 1/6th of the number of stratagems that 40k has...
Careful now. You might summon The Baxx, who has an encyclopediac memory of the 300+ gang tactics cards that exist.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Some of y'all asked for separate codices for everything. This is what happens when GW listens to those few.
This has nothing to do with separate codices.
It absolutely does due to GW making things even MORE inconsistent than what they normally do.
So the issue is not one of the idea of multiple codexes, but with GW's hamfisted execution of same.
There is nothing inherent to the idea of more books that determines their quality must be lower.
Death Guard got by fine being in the main codex. Now there's arbitrary garbage like missing Venomcrawlers and Obliterators. There's more to I consistency than just stats and points and strats.
Yep, hence a lot of the other issues with Chaos Marines that GW doesn't seem interested in addressing.
Chaos Lords limited to three models, a decent if aged terminator lord that has options, an ancient jump pack lord with no options, and a weird mono-pose plastic lord with no options.
Obliterators coming in one-pose pairs and only in the start collecting. Same with the Venomcrawler. Who knows what's going to happen to those models when the start collecting disappears?
A weird and cringey mix of ooooold rhino-chassis vehicles and the Defiler with heavily baroque dino-bots, and the Heldrake which frankly I view as one of the worst flier models GW has ever released. It's clunky, difficult to transport, and its proportions are all over the place, from its gaping rear end to its always-banking-left pose.
Terminators and Chosen so limited on options from their sprues that they've just lumped all of the different weapons into a single profile.
Completely awful internal balance between the various chaos gods, while two of the gods have separate Codexes (Death Guard and Thousand Sons) and World Eaters MIA for the moment and Emperor's Children stuck in the main book.
There's so many inconsistencies that are very frustrating as a fan of Chaos Marines to deal with. All of it tells me one thing as a consumer: The Chaos Marine model line/rules are INCOMPLETE.
Until we get Emperor's Children and World Eaters as their own books, finish updating some of the old models in the Chaos Marine dex, and give the Venomcrawler and Obliterators their own boxes, the Chaos Marine line will remain plainly incomplete, and the only thing we can do as fans is... wait.
drbored wrote: ... Necromunda, ... [has] 1/4th or even only 1/6th of the number of stratagems that 40k has...
Careful now. You might summon The Baxx, who has an encyclopediac memory of the 300+ gang tactics cards that exist.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Some of y'all asked for separate codices for everything. This is what happens when GW listens to those few.
This has nothing to do with separate codices.
It absolutely does due to GW making things even MORE inconsistent than what they normally do.
So the issue is not one of the idea of multiple codexes, but with GW's hamfisted execution of same.
There is nothing inherent to the idea of more books that determines their quality must be lower.
Death Guard got by fine being in the main codex. Now there's arbitrary garbage like missing Venomcrawlers and Obliterators. There's more to I consistency than just stats and points and strats.
The price of getting PBC, drones and myphitic haulers instead.
We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
drbored wrote: ... Necromunda, ... [has] 1/4th or even only 1/6th of the number of stratagems that 40k has...
Careful now. You might summon The Baxx, who has an encyclopediac memory of the 300+ gang tactics cards that exist.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Some of y'all asked for separate codices for everything. This is what happens when GW listens to those few.
This has nothing to do with separate codices.
It absolutely does due to GW making things even MORE inconsistent than what they normally do.
So the issue is not one of the idea of multiple codexes, but with GW's hamfisted execution of same.
There is nothing inherent to the idea of more books that determines their quality must be lower.
Death Guard got by fine being in the main codex. Now there's arbitrary garbage like missing Venomcrawlers and Obliterators. There's more to I consistency than just stats and points and strats.
Once again, not an issue inherent to them having their own book and everything to do with GW fumbling the ball.
Or in this case, just having a different of idea to you of what they think the army looks like, but I would be inclined to agree that most core units in a faction should have some degree of availability across all the sub factions.
If GW could wean themselves off re-selling their players the same book + a few changes every few years and switch to the same digital model that pretty much every other game company of note uses these days this wouldn't be an obstacle of course.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
The designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers were created by Mortarion as an act of spite. The Death Lord sought to create a mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard’s superiority over their former kin. For months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge. The resultant Daemon Engines reflect well the values of the figure that created them.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
Me: "Oh that's such a cool tank...$170...noooooooooope"
Anyway - it would make sense that Mortarion would use that chassis as the foundation for the PBC.
Gert wrote: The Plagueburst came first then the Aquitor was released after. It's like how the Vulturax is similar to the FW Blight Drone but still different.
You still wouldn't say the Blight Drone was invented by Mortarion though.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
The designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers were created by Mortarion as an act of spite. The Death Lord sought to create a mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard’s superiority over their former kin. For months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge. The resultant Daemon Engines reflect well the values of the figure that created them.
It's the same exact tank with a shield in the front, dude. Mortarion can say he invented it but the game taking place before all that has the Arquitor.
Gert wrote: The Plagueburst came first then the Aquitor was released after. It's like how the Vulturax is similar to the FW Blight Drone but still different.
You still wouldn't say the Blight Drone was invented by Mortarion though.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
The designs for the first Plagueburst Crawlers were created by Mortarion as an act of spite. The Death Lord sought to create a mobile artillery piece that would outclass any comparative Imperial weapon, and thus demonstrate the Death Guard’s superiority over their former kin. For months he locked himself away in the smog-wreathed spires of the Black Manse on Plague Planet, obsessing endlessly over his foul brainchild, turning all of his remarkable intellect to the challenge. The resultant Daemon Engines reflect well the values of the figure that created them.
It's the same exact tank with a shield in the front, dude. Mortarion can say he invented it but the game taking place before all that has the Arquitor.
Mortarion is a fictional character, the writing studio says he invented it in the unit entry. The 30k tank was made after its release because they liked the design. Choose to ignore the in-game fluff if you wish.
It's the same exact tank with a shield in the front, dude. Mortarion can say he invented it but the game taking place before all that has the Arquitor.
Fluffwise there's a lot more to Daemon engines than taking an imperial tank and painting it green. There's a whole convoluted process for summoning the right kind of daemons and binding them into the machine.
The 'invention' process would be less like someone sitting drawing blueprints, and more like the last 30mins of Event Horizon dragged out over several months.
EviscerationPlague wrote: We already had Drones through FW and FW provides a PBC before it being Nurgled (the Arquitor). That Death Guard are the only Legion to maintain those and not Black Legion and Iron Warriors is a bit silly when they don't have Warpsmiths available either.
The PBC is a siege weapon designed by Mortarions own hand according to their codex. To be a unique codex they needed to add and subtract units to create differences and prevent overlap where possible, hence new units and some losses.
You DID see the Arquitor right? Mortarion did not design the PBC hahahaha
Me: "Oh that's such a cool tank...$170...noooooooooope"
Anyway - it would make sense that Mortarion would use that chassis as the foundation for the PBC.
Can DG even field the Arquitor? I don't see any 40k rules, only 30k.
Just realised CSM are likely going to be balanced against the current marine dex, we are probably going to be playing with an underpowered 'early 9th edition' codex well into 10thed.
But lets be honest as a CSM player half the hobby is complaining
arcanum wrote: Just realised CSM are likely going to be balanced against the current marine dex, we are probably going to be playing with an underpowered 'early 9th edition' codex well into 10thed.
But lets be honest as a CSM player half the hobby is complaining
Possible they are working on SM 2.0 dex and they are balancing against that. It's not all doom and gloom fellas (and ladies).
arcanum wrote: Just realised CSM are likely going to be balanced against the current marine dex, we are probably going to be playing with an underpowered 'early 9th edition' codex well into 10thed.
But lets be honest as a CSM player half the hobby is complaining
Possible they are working on SM 2.0 dex and they are balancing against that. It's not all doom and gloom fellas (and ladies).
drbored wrote: Obliterators coming in one-pose pairs and only in the start collecting. Same with the Venomcrawler. Who knows what's going to happen to those models when the start collecting disappears?
They'll probably re-package them in a fashion similar to the Necrons Royal Court.
...and then charge you an extra $20 for the new box art.
arcanum wrote: Just realised CSM are likely going to be balanced against the current marine dex, we are probably going to be playing with an underpowered 'early 9th edition' codex well into 10thed.
I really don't think so. Nothing else lately is, and a lot of stuff is firmly aimed at being marine killers.
I think it does mean a SM 9.5 (9.75? 9.9?) codex, however.
I truly believe GW has some issue with Chaos, even ignoring stupid gak like dropping Jump Pack Heroes and the weird Chosen/termi rules this codex seems incredibly weak
Compare it to stuff like the new Tau Codex or Eldar or Custodes or hell the Nid leaks all of those are cleary more powerful. Its like they want Chaos to be at a perpetual disadvantage. My theory is that they want less blood soaked killers and half naked sexlords on the tabletop. Probably why Nurgle and to a lesser degree Tzeentch get the love, some stupid ass corporate mandate to look more "presentable" so mommy and daddy will buy the kiddos stuff.
And the worst thing is we will probably see a new codex Space Marine that blows us out of the water in less than a year.
Ohh well at least I'll have fun modeling my guys and deploying them before I'm inevitably shot off the board time and time again
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...he could have used the Arquitor chassis as a base for the design? I don't see how it existing and Morty inventing the PBC are mutually exclusive.
Morty copied the Mechanicum's homework and fooled everybody. He was always a hypocrite.
Although yes, as much as I like the Arquitor and PBC, introducing the former after the latter when it'd already been established it was Morty's OC was pretty silly.
That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
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2x210 wrote: Compare it to stuff like the new Tau Codex or Eldar or Custodes or hell the Nid leaks all of those are cleary more powerful. Its like they want Chaos to be at a perpetual disadvantage. My theory is that they want less blood soaked killers and half naked sexlords on the tabletop. Probably why Nurgle and to a lesser degree Tzeentch get the love, some stupid ass corporate mandate to look more "presentable" so mommy and daddy will buy the kiddos stuff.
Might want to do at least the bare minimum of research on GW's model releases before tossing out a claim like that.
2x210 wrote: I truly believe GW has some issue with Chaos, even ignoring stupid gak like dropping Jump Pack Heroes and the weird Chosen/termi rules this codex seems incredibly weak
Compare it to stuff like the new Tau Codex or Eldar or Custodes or hell the Nid leaks all of those are cleary more powerful. Its like they want Chaos to be at a perpetual disadvantage. My theory is that they want less blood soaked killers and half naked sexlords on the tabletop. Probably why Nurgle and to a lesser degree Tzeentch get the love, some stupid ass corporate mandate to look more "presentable" so mommy and daddy will buy the kiddos stuff.
And the worst thing is we will probably see a new codex Space Marine that blows us out of the water in less than a year.
Ohh well at least I'll have fun modeling my guys and deploying them before I'm inevitably shot off the board time and time again
No models no rules is not a new thing, its sucks but it is what it is. As far a rules go it pretty certain at this point if the rumors are accurate CSM will once again underpowered compared to more recent codices. Which is incredibly disappointing given the supposed importance of the Cicatrix Maledictum and Chaos supposedly having the Imperium on the ropes.
But disagree on it being on it being due to subject matter. Khorne has never had a problem with representation, no one cares about blood and guts. While Slaanesh is all cleaned up and presentable on the tabletop; the only breast are on creature that are clearly not humanoid.. I mean there's a model playing someone's innards as a harp. GW clearly wants to split off the god-specific factions as its stronger branding and allows for a more strongly themed product line; and that takes time. What they don't seem to have a clear vision for what to do with everyone else. Black Legion and the four Cult Legions are going to get model support, everyone else they'll just be paint jobs for now. Look at Chaos in AOS to see where this is going. So this might be more of a get us by codex.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
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2x210 wrote: Compare it to stuff like the new Tau Codex or Eldar or Custodes or hell the Nid leaks all of those are cleary more powerful. Its like they want Chaos to be at a perpetual disadvantage. My theory is that they want less blood soaked killers and half naked sexlords on the tabletop. Probably why Nurgle and to a lesser degree Tzeentch get the love, some stupid ass corporate mandate to look more "presentable" so mommy and daddy will buy the kiddos stuff.
Might want to do at least the bare minimum of research on GW's model releases before tossing out a claim like that.
Thousand Sons and Deathguard got entire new product lines along with Primarchs. 1000 Sons are super clean Egyptian style and Deathguard are just zombie bloated Marines neither of which are particularly offensive especially with Zombie media being prevalent. Meanwhile World Eaters and Emperor's Children have nothing new, Zerkers are one of the oldest sculpts still around and the only new Noise Marine is the single model with a guitar that came out a few years ago. I'm not talking about AoS or Demon models, and if I was I'd point out Slaneesh was completely remodeled and shelved for awhile until the fanbase got pissy enough to bring Shem back. But thats not my point, my point is Slaneesh as a "sex god" which might be an incredible simplification to the lore but nonetheless is what they are commonly seen as and Khorne being the hyper violent god lends themselves to conversions that accent these themes, conversions like that are something little Billy's mom would be more offended by then a rotting zombie since those have been all over mainstream media the past few years and certainly less offensive then Egyptian's in SPPAAAAACCEEEEE. The movement away from choices with Chaos models along with the lack of model support makes me think there is a corporate mandate to tread lighlty with those themes. Supposedly WE are coming soon so we will see what they go with as their ascetic but I would imagine gore and brutality will be toned down in favor of the gladiator look and theme. As for the Emperor's Children I wouldn't expect to see them for a long long time probably late 10th edition.
They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
2x210 wrote: ... and if I was I'd point out Slaneesh was completely remodeled and shelved for awhile until the fanbase got pissy enough to bring Shem back.
Wasn't true then. Isn't true now.
2x210 wrote: But thats not my point, my point is Slaneesh as a "sex god" which might be an incredible simplification to the lore but nonetheless is what they are commonly seen as...
By meme-y 4channers who only have a superficial read on the situation.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.
Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.
Have Noise marines lost or gained any special rules
What are the other gods unique stratagem, does slaanesh still have the ability to shoot twice ? (thanks for telling us about Nurgle trans human physiology btw)
Curious about the wording, on the emperor's children trait, where they ignore modifiers to their WS/BS is this only negative modifiers or all modifiers ?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign because people figured out how to game the reporting system and decided to troll GW by reporting a bunch of wins for Chaos and Tau.
And hey, they did EVENTUALLY blow up Cadia, so... that's something.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign because people figured out how to game the reporting system and decided to troll GW by reporting a bunch of wins for Chaos and Tau.
Chaos won because they figured out the mechanics of the system, and coordinated the reporting of wins to the systems and planets that would have maximum effect. Imperium lost because they were a disorganized herd of cats where half their players never figured out how to get from the sector-level map to system-level map and the other half reported all their wins to Caliban to drive the compliance up to 99% while Cadia got wrecked.
And GW have been exacting their revenge ever since.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
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2x210 wrote: Compare it to stuff like the new Tau Codex or Eldar or Custodes or hell the Nid leaks all of those are cleary more powerful. Its like they want Chaos to be at a perpetual disadvantage. My theory is that they want less blood soaked killers and half naked sexlords on the tabletop. Probably why Nurgle and to a lesser degree Tzeentch get the love, some stupid ass corporate mandate to look more "presentable" so mommy and daddy will buy the kiddos stuff.
Might want to do at least the bare minimum of research on GW's model releases before tossing out a claim like that.
Thousand Sons and Deathguard got entire new product lines along with [etc] Meanwhile World Eaters and Emperor's Children have nothing new, Zerkers are one of the oldest sculpts still around [etc]
Yeah but... a comparison to AOS tells an entirely different story in which khorne was the poster child baddies of the reboot, and slaanesh had a major update with IMHO a pretty successful look or certainly one that I would argue isn't just phoned in. It's almost like GW's model has switched to sometimes major (and yes sometimes there are minor ones) overhauls of dated lines to create new faction identities, and EC and WE haven't had their turn yet.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.
Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.
To be fair, centuries of constant warfare would leave the survivors crippled and mad, so having no space god magic to call on, that seems legit.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.
Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.
To be fair, centuries of constant warfare would leave the survivors crippled and mad, so having no space god magic to call on, that seems legit.
I know you're just trying to annoy me, but wouldn't that also apply for other long lived factions? Custodes, Eldar, etc?
Gert wrote: Nobody point out to Voss that the Great Crusade was 200 years long and there were Astartes who served from the start to the end without going bananas.
Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.
Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.
To be fair, centuries of constant warfare would leave the survivors crippled and mad, so having no space god magic to call on, that seems legit.
I know you're just trying to annoy me, but wouldn't that also apply for other long lived factions? Custodes, Eldar, etc?
Nope and Nope.
As for Custodes and Eldar. The latter actually have health care facilities and a complete mental break/disassociation with their lives as soldiers. The former are just oiled up 'hot bois' in leather pants who posed outside a throne room 10,000 years. What issues would they have? Beyond trying to cope with the Great Retcon of 2017...
Marines are intentionally ground down into psychopaths and degenerate from there. Chaos ones are lucky if someone is going staple an arm back on rather than eat it.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.
I would even argue that while the majority clearly aren't the nicest of folk, they aren't insane. There are of course exceptions *cough*Kharn*cough* but insanity would mean they weren't capable warriors and warlords, which they are.
Are CSM generally psychopathic and sociopathic? Absolutely, but you don't survive in the Warp or as a Renegade for long just on being good at killing (Kharn explicitly doesn't survive, he gets resurrected by Khorne all the time).
It does depend on where exactly the concept of sanity is being placed. From what I have gathered over the years, what is perfectly sane for a Marine would be borderline for a normal human at best. Compared to a human CSM are certainly well into insanity, and even compared to normal Marine psychology they are out there. But some degree of insanity is likely necessary to even survive the conditions they live in. The Warp eats sanity alive.
Gert wrote: Nobody point out to Voss that the Great Crusade was 200 years long and there were Astartes who served from the start to the end without going bananas.
Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Can't have the bad guys winning apparently
The World That Was would like a word with you...
I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.
2x210 wrote: I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.
That's not exactly how things went, you're missing out like thousands of years of events in between and that's not even a particularly accurate idea of what is happening presently in AoS.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: It does depend on where exactly the concept of sanity is being placed. From what I have gathered over the years, what is perfectly sane for a Marine would be borderline for a normal human at best. Compared to a human CSM are certainly well into insanity, and even compared to normal Marine psychology they are out there. But some degree of insanity is likely necessary to even survive the conditions they live in. The Warp eats sanity alive.
Yeah for sure the majority of CSM are not sane by modern or even generic 40k human standards but there is still a difference in what would be considered a psychosis and a personality disorder, and CSM largely fall into the latter category.
NinthMusketeer wrote: That's like saying all vehicles of the same basic shape are the same, which isn't at all true. Having a superficially similar exterior means next to nothing when they use different technology anyways.
So how do you feel about the plethora of Leman Russ tank entries? Or that new Primaris Predator or Speeder?
The different Leman Russes are all just the same tank with different turret weapons. The floaty primaris tanks are just that: tanks that float, instead of using treads, like REAL TANKS should.
Anyways, what is it you're complaining about? That the 30k Bombard tanks don't have 40k rules?
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Yeah, pretty much. Though I still think a lot of the issue is that gw can't stand the idea that CSM can be better than loyalists without using the POWER OF THE CHAOS GODS. Which is why they emphasize the Marked Legions, and always push Marks and Daemonic stuff for the Undivided Legions. Tougher because of Nurgle? Fine. Fightier because of Khorne? Fine. Better because you're a veteran of centuries of constant warfare? Nooooo, we can't have that.
To be fair, centuries of constant warfare would leave the survivors crippled and mad, so having no space god magic to call on, that seems legit.
I know you're just trying to annoy me, but wouldn't that also apply for other long lived factions? Custodes, Eldar, etc?
Nope and Nope.
As for Custodes and Eldar. The latter actually have health care facilities and a complete mental break/disassociation with their lives as soldiers. The former are just oiled up 'hot bois' in leather pants who posed outside a throne room 10,000 years. What issues would they have? Beyond trying to cope with the Great Retcon of 2017...
Marines are intentionally ground down into psychopaths and degenerate from there. Chaos ones are lucky if someone is going staple an arm back on rather than eat it.
Are, you even trying? *sigh*
First off: we already know that there's plenty of CSM who are hundreds of years old, but aren't gibbering lunatics. There's plenty of examples. Psychopaths? Yes, but as you said, that's just the starting point for an Astartes. Is your average CSM more psychopathic than your average loyalist? Yes, probably. But that isn't the kind of "mad" you were talking about, now was it?
Second, as for CSM being "lucky if someone is going to staple an arm back on rather than eat it": 10th Company was generally considered a "poor" warband, without a lot of resources. But they still had enough access to bionics that they could give them out to standard human crewmembers if they were deemed "important enough" for them. So they'd definitely have enough for the Astartes of the warband. Better supplied warbands would have even more access. So, no, they wouldn't be crippled, either.
Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.
Gert wrote: Nobody point out to Voss that the Great Crusade was 200 years long and there were Astartes who served from the start to the end without going bananas.
Heck, there are Astartes from the very first batch who are still kicking around and aren't (completely) insane.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Can't have the bad guys winning apparently
The World That Was would like a word with you...
I wouldn't call that a Chaos victory since it lead to the Stormhosts and the Forces of Order being ever more powerful than they were before, I mean they ended up with their own super soldiers which are reborn heroes from that time. Pyrrhic victory at best.
I mean, they ended a freaking world - I'd call that a total victory. And then, when they saw the Mortal Realms thriving, they attacked and forced even the mighty Sigmar to take his ball and go home.
I mean, they ended a freaking world - I'd call that a total victory. And then, when they saw the Mortal Realms thriving, they attacked and forced even the mighty Sigmar to take his ball and go home.
They ended a world all but handed to them on a platter by Teclis.
Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.
Actually, yeah. Having actual cosmic horrors around that are made out of basic recognizable emotions, and you & others can definitely can see and touch and shoot in the face? That actually would be fairly grounding for trying to deal with the fact that the 40k universe is so crap. There's actually a reason, it's standing right there and it isn't even vaguely unknowable or unrecognizable. Its just a personification of wrath, despair, excess or ambition, and it exists to make the universe worse.
NinthMusketeer wrote:CSM are very tolerant of nuerodiversity, happily accepting all varieties of mental disability and insanity into their ranks
Gross. Don't bring real world neurodiversity into this gamers & game designers' cartoonish caricature of outdated 20th century psychology.
Imma just quote the Black Crusade Core Rulebook on this:
BC Core Rulebook, page 278 wrote: Insanity The mere fact of his survival means that the mind of even the least experienced Heretic has been scourged by sights and knowledge so blasphemous and so horrific that they would have flayed bare the mind of a lesser man. Heretics in Black Crusade are considered to already have 100 Insanity Points, to have lost their minds, an to have come through the other side of madness a functional but fundamentally changed person. While heretics do not accrue Insanity Points as characters do in other Warhammer 40,000 games, over time they do tend to acquire small mental tics known as Disorders.
Now without going into the nitty gritty of this, this would be caused by truly terrifying sights - facing down a Greater Daemon, looking directly into the Warp unprotected - gak like that.
The Disorders were based on Chaos God alignment, so tended to amp up aspects of worship/attitutes towards people through the lens of a Chaos God.
So, a Khorne follower could end up with a need to cover himself in blood or lose concentration. A Slaaneshi follower might become so arrogant to those he sees as beneath him that he just can't get along with 'lesser' beings. A Nurgle follower might become so friendly towards others that he becomes very bad at keeping secrets and decieving people. And a Tzeentch follower might become obsessed with the number 9 to the point of... well... insanity!
Those arguing about whether CSM are insane should read Shroud of Night. The main characters are an AL warband that spent centuries fighting in a battleroyal in the eye of terror against the greatest champions of chaos, won and did so without getting corrupted.
Not only are they the most sane characters in the story but they make the Imperial Fists look irrational in comparison.
I mean, its probably easier for authors to write CSM protagonists as not wacked on chaos juice insanity all the time. Not that it doesn't make compelling characters (just look at the Lords of Silence), but a lot of the time, CSM seem to come across rather deluded than actual insane. Dwelling on past glories, going full force into what creed or god they worship, etc.
Resk wrote: Those arguing about whether CSM are insane should read Shroud of Night.
They should read this:
Spoiler:
For over ten thousand years have I lived,”intoned the Chaos warrior. ”For over a hundred centuries have I fought the long war. Eighty-eight million hours cannot contain my hatred.”
For over a day now the space hulk Reaper of Souls had held its orbit over the doomed planet. Brother-Captain Karlsen studied the world visible through the huge art of the stained glass window. It glittered like a jewel in the blackness of space. Its greenness mocked him. Down there people went about their daily business. They lived their lives secure in the knowledge that their Emperor and his mighty legions protected them.
Karlsen laughed his hollow laugh, it bubbled horribly from his ruined throat. Today that ended.
Their stupid ordered lives were over. They were insects, dwelling in an insects’ nest. They lived insect lives and never understood the true nature of the universe, a place of predators who preyed on body and soul.
The fold down there were sheep. Let the sheep look up, thought Karlsen. Let them know the wolves are about to descend on the fold. Let them pray to their senile god and know that he cannot save them.
Their world will burn, he swore. They will pray for death. Their weapons will not save them. Their armies will not protect them. Their pitiful faith will not shield them. They will die and their souls will be consigned screaming to the warp. This I swear by the honour of my Chapter and all the powers of Chaos. But for now let them wait, for I must celebrate the Dark Communion.
He looked down at the throne in which he rested. The ancient brass was moulded in the shape of a mythical beast of Old Earth. Life support tubes connected it to the re-breathers of his ancient armour. The ten thousand year—old runes flickered and glowed in the chill darkness, sending out messages that only a few now living could read and fully understand.
Karlsen studied the walls of this ancient chamber with his baleful red glare, noting as if for the first time the gargoyles that guarded each doorway and sign of the Eye of Horus that enclosed the stained glass window. He noticed the cracked and flaking tiles that covered the ceramite floor and recalled that once they had contained a mosaic depicting the attack on the Emperor’s Palace during the long ago battle for Earth. The picture was long gone, worn away by a million footfalls down the long centuries.
Karlsen lashed the metal tentacles that replaced his left hand and reflexively worked the action of the bolter fused to the stump of his right wrist. There were times he felt like this space hulk, like a strange agglomeration of random bits hastily and crudely connected to an ancient central core.
He knew the space hulk was a jumble of the flotsam and jetsam of interstellar space that had been sucked though the warp to the daemon worlds, had drifted for centuries till it had been integrated into this vast vessel. Whatever shape the hulk had originally possessed was long gone. He was like that — a millennia of mutation, of gifts from his patron Chaos Power had cost him his original shape. No longer was he a tall, powerful Space Marine garbed in ceramite armour. Now he was an inhuman thing, a patchwork of many strange pieces. Only the original body shape and the mind was still Karlsen’s, and sometimes he was not sure even of that.
Could any mind remain intact after ten thousand years. Would it not splinter under the impact of all that accumulated experience? Would not the years bring madness? Instinctively Karlsen knew that he had gone mad many times. There had been centuries when he had gibbered insanely, years when he had reiterated a single crazed chant. He knew that he had lost so much. No mind could hold all his memories. They overflowed like wine from an overfilled cup. It was part of the gift and the curse of his immortality.
That was why, when they could, he and his men celebrated the Dark Communion. They preserved what was important. They stayed themselves and did not devolve into howling Chaos Spawn. In the end, when all was said and done, they were Space Marines, and they had a Space Marine’s pride.
Karlsen cleared his mind as he had learned so long ago. He turned his gaze inward. He needed no drugs, no chants, none of the aids and adjuncts that lesser sorcerers used. He had ten millennia of practice and his powers were strong. He envisioned a vast cavern, the walls of which were lined with pigeon-holes. In each pigeon-hole was a glowing gem. Each glowing gem was a memory. One that he had chosen to preserve. It would remain in this protected space within his mind for as long as he would live. Karlsen had achieved the first level of the Ritual.
Now he reviewed last year, winnowing his memories for deeds he wished to preserve. Was there anything worth keeping, worth preserving from time's slow erosion. That battle on Kadavah, perhaps, where they had aided those pitiful rebels against their Imperial masters, and where he had killed that Blood Angel in the desecrated rubble of the shrine of the Emperor’s Ascension? Yes, he thought, recalling the moment with satisfaction, that was worth preserving.
He visualised the scene clearly. The Blood Angel crawling from the ruins, his armour all pitted and cracked. Nearby lay the huge skull of a destroyed Warhound Titan. In the distance loomed the skeletal remains of Kadavah’s skyscraped towers. He had the moment perfectly. He could taste the dry burned taint in the air, feel the kick of his bolter, hear the groans of the wounded, smell the stink of molten metal, sense the departure of the Blood Angel’s soul. He fixed the memory, reduced it to something hard and bright and pure, then left it in its assigned place. There was nothing else he wanted to preserve.
Now came the next stage. He examined his memories. Now he exulted in who he was and how he came to be. He reached for the gems of memory, and they came to him, one by one.
He was on Prospero, homeworld of his Order. From the balcony of his tower he could see the mile-high spire where dwelled Magnus, Primarch of his Order. The air of the city crackled with hundreds of potent enchantments. His spellbook floated in front of him. He knew that Magnus had been right to defy the Emperor’s Interdict against the study of magic. It was so fascinating and they had learned so much. Soon they would use their spells to smite the Emperor’s enemies and the ruler of mankind would be forced to see the error of his ways,
I was a fool then, thought Karlsen. We were all fools. He reached for another memory.
Anger at the betrayal filled his mind. The Emperor had declared them heretics, outcasts. Their knowledge was deemed forbidden. They were to be purged. The Space Wolves had been despatched to cleanse Prospero. They were forced to flee. In that moment Karlsen realised that the Emperor was a fool and all his followers were dupes. He was jealous of any power he did not understand. Perhaps he feared a potential rival. Whatever his reasons it did not matter. The Thousand Sons must take to their ships and accept Warmaster Horus’ offer of sanctuary. It was their only chance of survival in the turbulent period of civil war, the only way to protect what they had gained.
Another scene filled his mind.
He aimed his bolter at the Loyalist and pulled the trigger. The man screamed and fell. Laser fire scorched the pavement all around him but the shimmer of his protective spells warded it from his body. In the distance he could see the mountain-high silver walls that protected the Emperor’s palace. Overhead the blue sky of Earth was filled with ships. This was the final battle. Today the fate of the galaxy would be decided.
The scene melted into another memory of that awesome battle.
He stood before the gleaming black valves of the Ultimate Gate, the towering portal that guarded the entrance to the Inner Palace. All around him he sensed the press and surge of bodies. Overhead an angel-winged man in blood red armour wrestled with a huge bat-winged daemon. With a final mighty surge the daemon cast the man down. Karlsen heard granite crack and his roar of triumph mingled with ten thousand other voices.
He watched the Earth recede behind him through the armourglass window of the spacecraft. The taste of defeat was bitter in his mouth. The Emperor had defeated Warmaster Horus. Loyalist reinforcements approached Earth, bearing the accursed Space Wolves and the Dark Angels. They were defeated.
The rebellion was over. Now they must flee to the edge of the galaxy, to the one place their foes would not dare pursue them, to the Eye of Terror.
He stood amid the rubble of Prospero and watched the sky change colour. His voice mingled with the chanting of his brothers. Chain lightning crackled from horizon to horizon. Pain filled him as he forced his mind to the task. The towering presence of Magnus was there, calming him, reassuring him that what they attempted could be done, that they could indeed shift an entire world through the warp to the Eye, that their ancient world could be theirs again.
He raced down a long street between low squat buildings. Behind him he heard the whoosh of displaced air, turning he snapped off a shot with his bolter. The long sleek Eldar jet—bike jinked to one side and the shot ricocheted from the walls.
He looked in horror at his hand. It was starting to change. The fingers were lengthening. Already they had fused with his gauntlet and he could not take it off. Was this the result of long term exposure to the warping influence of Chaos within the Eye or something else? His armour was already changing, flowing into a new style. Tiny metal skulls covered his belt, a daemon’s head leered from his shoulder guard. Fear of the change filled him.
He stood in the long hall of a tumbled down building. The roof had long ago collapsed and cold stars glittered in the sky. The daemon crouched in front of him, confined by the pentacle and the power of his will. It snarled and flickers of warpflame emerged from its mouth. It did not want to share its wisdom with him but he knew that soon it would.
He wrapped his tentacles round the throat of the blue—armoured Ultramarine. The man struggled and writhed in his grasp, frantically trying to break his grip and bring his bolter to bear. It was a hopeless struggle. Slowly, inexorably, Karlsen lifted him and with one mighty heave threw him off the top of the tower. He watched with satisfaction as the man tumbled headlong to the ground over a mile below. The fight was over. The last Ultramarine on the planet was dead. The governor’s palace was theirs.
On and on it went. Memories flickered through his mind, reminding him of ancient triumphs and ancient defeats, of all the things he desired to remember and some of the things he would like to forget but could not.
The touch of his sergeant brought him from his reveries. He looked up into Caine’s twisted goat face,”What is it?” he asked.
”Ships rise from the planet, Brother Captain. Defenders come to meet us.”
Good, thought Karlsen. Perhaps this planet shall provide us with some sport after all.
It's from one of the three 2nd edition books, maybe the rulebook, and I guess it's from Bill King. It was better than the whole Codex: Chaos fluff later.
Finally, you're initial statement has a big problem: it assumes that you're more likely to go "mad" from centuries of constant warfare than from centuries of constant warfare and hanging out with Lovecraftian Horrors.
Actually, yeah. Having actual cosmic horrors around that are made out of basic recognizable emotions, and you & others can definitely can see and touch and shoot in the face? That actually would be fairly grounding for trying to deal with the fact that the 40k universe is so crap. There's actually a reason, it's standing right there and it isn't even vaguely unknowable or unrecognizable. Its just a personification of wrath, despair, excess or ambition, and it exists to make the universe worse.
Now that's an interesting take. But......it still doesn't show that a CSM who doesn't worship any of the Chaos Gods is any more likely to be "mad" than one who does. A CSM who doesn't worship the Chaos Gods can still see those cosmic horrors and "shoot them in the face" just as well as one who does. If the simple knowledge of such things makes you "more grounded" with the 40k universe, then it applies to all CSM. You can't spend time in The Eye without knowing about Daemons, after all. But you can do it without worshipping them.
@Dryaktylus: Thanks for the excerpt! It was a good read.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Imma just quote the Black Crusade Core Rulebook on this:
BC Core Rulebook, page 278 wrote:
Insanity The mere fact of his survival means that the mind of even the least experienced Heretic has been scourged by sights and knowledge so blasphemous and so horrific that they would have flayed bare the mind of a lesser man. Heretics in Black Crusade are considered to already have 100 Insanity Points, to have lost their minds, an to have come through the other side of madness a functional but fundamentally changed person. While heretics do not accrue Insanity Points as characters do in other Warhammer 40,000 games, over time they do tend to acquire small mental tics known as Disorders.
Now without going into the nitty gritty of this, this would be caused by truly terrifying sights - facing down a Greater Daemon, looking directly into the Warp unprotected - gak like that.
The Disorders were based on Chaos God alignment, so tended to amp up aspects of worship/attitutes towards people through the lens of a Chaos God.
So, a Khorne follower could end up with a need to cover himself in blood or lose concentration. A Slaaneshi follower might become so arrogant to those he sees as beneath him that he just can't get along with 'lesser' beings. A Nurgle follower might become so friendly towards others that he becomes very bad at keeping secrets and decieving people. And a Tzeentch follower might become obsessed with the number 9 to the point of... well... insanity!
I own Dark Crusade and Tome of Plague (sadly couldn't get the other three before they disappeared into the ether) so thanks for your contributions on that. Embarrassingly I still haven't managed to run a game and don't have my copy near me unfortunately so I have a question.
If Disorders were fundamentally god marked, how did you handle that for Undivided characters? Did they just take a random mix from the various marked disorders?
If you were unaligned**, the GM just picked the table for you, representing that even though you may not be stuck on the path of worship to any particular Chaos God, one of them may have wormed their way into your mind without you even realising.
**On that note - 'unaligned'. It's an interesting word, and I use it rather than Undivided quite intentionally.
When our group was play-testing Black Crusade, I brought up that they had written 'unaligned' everywhere rather than Undivided. The response I got was that it was a directive from on high and that GW was moving away from the concept of Chaos Undivided. When I eventually went on to write for each of the 4 Tome books for Black Crusade, this was further emphasises in the style guides we received - always unaligned, never Undivided.
It does seem that GW is reversing that trend. Perhaps it was a holdover from the Days of Merritt, like how Genestealer Cults weren't even allowed to be referenced whilst he was around?
Not just them though. It's the plastic ones going away that are a bigger worry.
I mean, some of this does not bode well:
Heroes of the Chapter - Sure, completely redundant now that there's a Primaris Ancient on sale separately. Not one, not two, not three, but four Space Marine Captains, including two plastic ones and, more significantly, the one with all the weapon options. Say good bye to any customisation in Marines 2.0 I guess. Add to that the Techmarine, and his attendantServitors. The Chaplain with a Jump Pack, so say good bye to that option I suppose. And finally the plastic Terminator Librarian. That leaves only the Blood Angel Termy Libby on sale, and that's out of stock. They're gutting the First Born range.
This change all but confirms that Chaos are losing the Jump Pack option for Lords, meaning that the only power armour Chaos Lord load-out will be Hammer McMonopose here (unless Chaos Lords also get "Accursed Weapons", allowing the Chosen box to rep any of them). I imagine this means that the Chaos Terminator Lord will only have access to Combi-Bolters, Combi-Meltas, Power Fists, Chainfists, Power Axes or Lightning Claws (or 1 Accursed Weapon or 2 Accursed Weapons).
Dudeface wrote: Chaos lord with jump pack, the really old iron warriors warsmith and my boy Huron are all going oop as of today. Sign of things to come?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not just them though. It's the plastic ones going away that are a bigger worry.
I mean, some of this does not bode well:
Heroes of the Chapter - Sure, completely redundant now that there's a Primaris Ancient on sale separately. Not one, not two, not three, but four Space Marine Captains, including two plastic ones and, more significantly, the one with all the weapon options. Say good bye to any customisation in Marines 2.0 I guess. Add to that the Techmarine, and his attendantServitors. The Chaplain with a Jump Pack, so say good bye to that option I suppose. And finally the plastic Terminator Librarian. That leaves only the Blood Angel Termy Libby on sale, and that's out of stock. They're gutting the First Born range.
This change all but confirms that Chaos are losing the Jump Pack option for Lords, meaning that the only power armour Chaos Lord load-out will be Hammer McMonopose here (unless Chaos Lords also get "Accursed Weapons", allowing the Chosen box to rep any of them). I imagine this means that the Chaos Terminator Lord will only have access to Combi-Bolters, Combi-Meltas, Power Fists, Chainfists, Power Axes or Lightning Claws (or 1 Accursed Weapon or 2 Accursed Weapons).
This is good actually - it helps make the game simpler so new players (who are helpless cattle and cannot understand the concept of conversions or kitbashing) from making mistakes/s.
Huron has a novel coming out in the next few months so I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a new plastic model to replace the resin one come out around the same time.
Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
Dawnbringer wrote: Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
The context for the concerns here in the chaos thread was rumour there wouldn't be a jump pack option for lords and now the official jump pack model is on last chance. Conversely there wasn't mention of a new Huron so it might be happenstance, likewise supposedly mutilators are gone but the models are not on last chance.
Dawnbringer wrote: Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
What do "Firstborn" have to do with Chaos Space Marines? Changes to the Loyalist product line shouldn't affect CSM.
So this all but confirms jumppack lords are really gone.
Ohh well guess I'll skip this new Codex and go back to my Blood Angels for another edition. GW clearly doesn't want my money and who am I to go against them?
Dawnbringer wrote: Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
What do "Firstborn" have to do with Chaos Space Marines? Changes to the Loyalist product line shouldn't affect CSM.
All Chaos Marines are firstborn and GW seems pretty insistent on killing all interest in the army so maybe that's the connection?
Dawnbringer wrote: Let be honest. It's been rumoured for years first born were going the way of the Dodo. Unsurprisingly it's been neither as quick as some predicted, but as inevitable as some feared. I suspect they are doing as stock starts to run low / the maths don't support another production run
.
What do "Firstborn" have to do with Chaos Space Marines? Changes to the Loyalist product line shouldn't affect CSM.
All Chaos Marines are firstborn and GW seems pretty insistent on killing all interest in the army so maybe that's the connection?
Wasnt Bile fething around with Primaris? I'm surprised this codex didnt start the soft rollout of "Enhanced" Chaos based off his research.
Interesting to note that there's no range rotation article up so it looks like these are going for good. Also, the Night Lord champion model isn't included and some of the Marine stuff that's getting axed doesn't have a counterpart model.
Just a weird lump of stuff.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Not just them though. It's the plastic ones going away that are a bigger worry.
I mean, some of this does not bode well:
Heroes of the Chapter - Sure, completely redundant now that there's a Primaris Ancient on sale separately. Not one, not two, not three, but four Space Marine Captains, including two plastic ones and, more significantly, the one with all the weapon options. Say good bye to any customisation in Marines 2.0 I guess. Add to that the Techmarine, and his attendantServitors. The Chaplain with a Jump Pack, so say good bye to that option I suppose. And finally the plastic Terminator Librarian. That leaves only the Blood Angel Termy Libby on sale, and that's out of stock. They're gutting the First Born range.
This change all but confirms that Chaos are losing the Jump Pack option for Lords, meaning that the only power armour Chaos Lord load-out will be Hammer McMonopose here (unless Chaos Lords also get "Accursed Weapons", allowing the Chosen box to rep any of them). I imagine this means that the Chaos Terminator Lord will only have access to Combi-Bolters, Combi-Meltas, Power Fists, Chainfists, Power Axes or Lightning Claws (or 1 Accursed Weapon or 2 Accursed Weapons).
I can understand them dropping some of the finecast kits. Sad to see the classic Commander model go, but besides the Cape and eagle backpack, everything else in that kit the sternguard box does better, and the commander is a holdover from before they revamped how firstborn torsos connected together. Losing the captain with combigrav is bad, but did anyone actually run him?
Techmarine and servitors still exist as the bundled version, but do seem to lose the plasma and melta arms. GW just needs to make a plastic kit of basic servitors to share between techmarine, techpriests, and mechanicus.
Jump Pack Chaplain still has a Blood Angels version
Terminator Librarian looks go be going away as a single model, but is included in the Grey Knights new combat patrol box, so not really gone.
I don't know if this has been pointed out by anyone but a ton of marines have gone on last chance to buy on the GW site. Also the following models are on last chance to buy.
Loyalists will be fine. Anything they lose will just be replaced by some Primaris equivalent. CSM are rarely that lucky. The removal of the Jump Lord lends credence to the rumour that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers won't be able to take jump packs in the 9th edition codex, because if gw doesn't make the model, then they don't make the rules. And they're removing the model, because of "Reasons".
They just expect every Chaos Lord to either be a Terminator, on in PA with just a Hammer and Plasma Pistol. Those are all the options you ever need right? Right?
Theres reasons my CSM all ended up in a nice new home with a friend of mine.
Please stop with this, it's not funny and given next to nothing is verified, yes. We must wait and see. Or ignore it and carry on with our 8th ed stuff and pretend there isn't an impending release.
Please stop with this, it's not funny and given next to nothing is verified, yes. We must wait and see. Or ignore it and carry on with our 8th ed stuff and pretend there isn't an impending release.
Well, what is given is the fact they're on Last Chance to Buy, and when something is just getting repacked they just go straight to No Longer Avalible Online.
Please stop with this, it's not funny and given next to nothing is verified, yes. We must wait and see. Or ignore it and carry on with our 8th ed stuff and pretend there isn't an impending release.
Well, what is given is the fact they're on Last Chance to Buy, and when something is just getting repacked they just go straight to No Longer Avalible Online.
So, we kinda have all we need to know, y'know?
Not really, we don't have any facts about jump packs being removed or huron getting a resculpt. We have to wait and see if they do.
Well, if Huron is gone permanently, that leaves Lucius as the last finecast CSMSC.
Siegfriedfr wrote: The lack of a multipart Chaos Lord cannot go on forever. Obsidius is/was just a temporary bandaid.
I mean, for Space Marines you have like 5 different captains, 15 different lieutenants, versus 1 Chaos Lord.
At this stage, Chaos is being treated like a Xenos faction.
Worse than some Xenos factions - even Eldar have a multipart plastic Autarch kit now.
A multipart lord kit is top of my wishlist for CSM. It's an egregious omission from the range at this point & I really hate that black legion hammerlord model.
What we don't know is whether the codex is accompanied by some new releases right? I mean it is perfectly possible that they're retiring some of the old kits because replacements are coming. Wasn't there some rumour image that looked like some sort of a massive chaosy power claw? Could be some sort of a character.
The aggravating thing is, they had a character model that they could have made a generic jump lord, but instead they made it a named character locked to a single Legion.
Crimson wrote: What we don't know is whether the codex is accompanied by some new releases right? I mean it is perfectly possible that they're retiring some of the old kits because replacements are coming. Wasn't there some rumour image that looked like some sort of a massive chaosy power claw? Could be some sort of a character.
The old leaked road map never mentioned any characters beyond the renegade humans and warpsmith iirc.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The aggravating thing is, they had a character model that they could have made a generic jump lord, but instead they made it a named character locked to a single Legion.
But without the glorious, uh... Hacky Worldspearer, how would we remember the glory of the Vigilish campaign? Books 1 or 2?
Marneus Cowgirl (blessings on his irrelevance now that his boss is back) didn't not die to... somebody else... for you not to remember that other guy introduced just for this random world where nothing important happened!
Gadzilla666 wrote: The aggravating thing is, they had a character model that they could have made a generic jump lord, but instead they made it a named character locked to a single Legion.
But without the glorious, uh... Hacky Worldspearer, how would we remember the glory of the Vigilish campaign? Books 1 or 2?
Marneus Cowgirl (blessings on his irrelevance now that his boss is back) didn't not die to... somebody else... for you not to remember that other guy introduced just for this random world where nothing important happened!
Nope, we definitely wouldn't want to have missed out on that.
But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife. Mr. Thunderhammer, however? Judging from the pics of his sprue, not so much. Looks like you'd need the knife just to get the Eye of Horus shoulder pad off.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The aggravating thing is, they had a character model that they could have made a generic jump lord, but instead they made it a named character locked to a single Legion.
And he wasn't even good. No D2 Claw, no Spear in melee.......just all around blech.
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
I think his point is that Haarken comes with easily removable arms and shoulder pads, the latter of which feature Black Legion iconography. You can purchase Haarken and turn him into a regular jump lord without needing to cut or convert anything. The hammerlord (Mallex) by contrast has no build options and moulded-on Black Legion iconography.
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
I think his point is that Haarken comes with easily removable arms and shoulder pads, the latter of which feature Black Legion iconography. You can purchase Haarken and turn him into a regular jump lord without needing to cut or convert anything. The hammerlord (Mallex) by contrast has no build options and moulded-on Black Legion iconography.
But why would you want build options when Chaos Lords are all armed with thunder hammers and plasma pistols?
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
I think his point is that Haarken comes with easily removable arms and shoulder pads, the latter of which feature Black Legion iconography. You can purchase Haarken and turn him into a regular jump lord without needing to cut or convert anything. The hammerlord (Mallex) by contrast has no build options and moulded-on Black Legion iconography.
But why would you want build options when Chaos Lords are all armed with thunder hammers and plasma pistols?
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
I just can't help it, Doobie. I think it was all of those subliminal messages in those Judas Priest albums. I just can't stop.....breakin' the law, breakin' the law, breakin' the lawwwww!
Gadzilla666 wrote: But, at least the model is multi-part "enough" to kitbash together a jump lord with something besides 1 claw + 1 spear, and from a different Legion without breaking out the old hobby knife.
But why would you want to assemble Haarken with an illegal loadout? As a display piece or something? And I'm pretty sure Haarken is from the Black Legion not a different Legion.
I think his point is that Haarken comes with easily removable arms and shoulder pads, the latter of which feature Black Legion iconography. You can purchase Haarken and turn him into a regular jump lord without needing to cut or convert anything. The hammerlord (Mallex) by contrast has no build options and moulded-on Black Legion iconography.
But why would you want build options when Chaos Lords are all armed with thunder hammers and plasma pistols?
Lol
The sad thing is I'm meeting more and more people with this actual mindset. A friend of mine who is a really good minipainter refuses to paint anything that isnt an "official" color scheme and thinks conversions and even kitbashes are and I quote "really weird and ruin the immersion of the game".
He said this after seeing a squad of Raptors I made that had the possessed wing back packs instead of the normal jump packs........
Man, these things push me more away from 40K than any imbalances or rules bloat ever could. After having experienced 7th Edition and staying with it I didn't think GW could find a way to make me quit 40K. Grimdark Future/One Page rules looks better every day.
Idk why they just don't do what they do with Custodes, an army with NO generic leader kit. Just say any infantry kit can be a "leader" and give them those options.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The removal of the Jump Lord lends credence to the rumour that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers won't be able to take jump packs in the 9th edition codex, because if gw doesn't make the model, then they don't make the rules. And they're removing the model, because of "Reasons".
Not true. There are rules for heavy plasma cannon, twin heavy flamer, multi melta, twin heavy bolter loyalist dreadnoughts. But there are no such weapons on the sprue, just an assault cannon, a twin-linked lascannon, a powerfist and a missile launcher.
My God you really just said that, and unironically too!
I believe that Huron will get a new mini, but the Jump Pack Lord is gone.
The only Lord we have is Plas/Hammer. Whatever copium the few of you acting like this isn't the case are huffing, please stop.
Not a case of copium, we have 1 rumour source who mentions jump packs are gone that we can't verify yet, a 3rd edition finecast Raptor Lord who doesn't fit the aesthetic is going which might be a hint might be coincidence. There's no rumour from either source of huron getting a resculpt.
To find out if he does you need to....
Also the other Lord models are not on the oop list, so if it fixed loadout or nothing surely they'd remove those too?
The Night Lords Chaos Lord is still for sale so maybe they will allow a Chaos Lord that takes the Night Lords keyword to exchange his thunder hammer and plasma pistol for a power fist and combi-flamer.
I'm concerned about Noise Marines though. Do we have confirmation that the new codex will have rules for their bodies or will it only have rules for their arms? Might make it difficult to move or hold objectives.
I wonder why World Eater players are the most calm ones around here. They have little to no information at all and peoples armies are at risk of loosing access to several units. Props for that
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I wonder why World Eater players are the most calm ones around here. They have little to no information at all and peoples armies are at risk of loosing access to several units. Props for that
Hard to be angry about losing stuff when you don't know what you're losing or when. They will also get a good release of new stuff I'd imagine. So it's not a bad situation necessarily.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The removal of the Jump Lord lends credence to the rumour that Chaos Lords and Sorcerers won't be able to take jump packs in the 9th edition codex, because if gw doesn't make the model, then they don't make the rules. And they're removing the model, because of "Reasons".
Not true. There are rules for heavy plasma cannon, twin heavy flamer, multi melta, twin heavy bolter loyalist dreadnoughts. But there are no such weapons on the sprue, just an assault cannon, a twin-linked lascannon, a powerfist and a missile launcher.
No, not true for Loyalist Scum. You can't assume that any other faction will get the same kind of treatment as loyalists. Just sticking with Dreadnoughts: sure, loyalists Dreadnoughts have kept their "legacy options", but where are the rules for the two Butcher Cannons on the ends of my Chaos Contemptor's arms? They're gone, despite being a legal option since the unit was introduced to the faction in IA13. Why? No official model. Butcher Cannons were a "conversion option", and gw doesn't support those anymore outside of loyalists.
p5freak wrote: Not true. There are rules for heavy plasma cannon, twin heavy flamer, multi melta, twin heavy bolter loyalist dreadnoughts. But there are no such weapons on the sprue, just an assault cannon, a twin-linked lascannon, a powerfist and a missile launcher.
Plasma Cannon comes with the Venerable Dreadnought kit and the arms are interchangeable. The Multi-Melta was on the Black Reach Dreadnought and is the only option in the Space Marine Codex that cannot be bought on a model. Twin Heavy Flamers, Flamestorm Cannons, and Twin Heavy Bolters are not options available to the SM Codex Dreadnoughts, and AFAIK the FW Castraferrum profile is gone, as is the Mortis Dreadnought.
Regardless, availability for Space Marines does not, and never has meant, availability for CSM.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I wonder why World Eater players are the most calm ones around here. They have little to no information at all and peoples armies are at risk of loosing access to several units. Props for that
Its the limbo. World Eaters are effectively in stasis until GW owns up to what they're doing with them. If all the ranged options from the Chaos codex get deleted (for WE) 'cuz Khorne= AXES, melee only yargle bargle flanderization,' I'm already ready to walk away.
I'm still vaguely hoping that GW can walk away from their self-created notion that the followers of chaos are regimented, cookie cutter, one dimensional memes, but signs don't look good.
Its just extra galling for Khorne, because he was the tech/forge master, eager and willing for his followers to use any kind of created weapon to slay and burn.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I wonder why World Eater players are the most calm ones around here. They have little to no information at all and peoples armies are at risk of loosing access to several units. Props for that
Hard to be angry about losing stuff when you don't know what you're losing or when. They will also get a good release of new stuff I'd imagine. So it's not a bad situation necessarily.
Right now, it stands to reason you'd at least temporarily lose the whole army. If a new CSM codex launches missing the World Eaters, how would you even build their army? They'd have no legal codex. Unless they get the White Dwarf treatment...
Best case GW releases a pdf supplement like they did for the Marine chapters that got left in limbo after their codexes were culled
More likely is GW releasing a statement telling existing WE players to use their old (current) codex
Most likely is GW saying nothing about the matter at all, and WE players are left in the dark officially until a week before the WE codex goes up for pre-order
Yeah that and some Khorny Rumour engines make me think that we will see this happen first. I assume at the next preview (do we have btw one incoming anytime soon?) we will see a first hint of WE/CSM along the reveal of the new chaos knight sculpt teased. I am also curious if/what ammount of love chaos deamon will get.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Yeah that and some Khorny Rumour engines make me think that we will see this happen first. I assume at the next preview (do we have btw one incoming anytime soon?) we will see a first hint of WE/CSM along the reveal of the new chaos knight sculpt teased. I am also curious if/what ammount of love chaos deamon will get.
Daemons are a bit of a mystery, their design is very much exactly what 9th ed army building doesn't want to be. They're hard to reward monogod without penalising mixed gods, they're intended to be an easy soup option but that's been slapped as well.
Model wise they're in a strong place though so light release I'd guess.
Voss wrote: Best case is actually the WE codex comes out first, then the general codex follows. Then there isn't any gap at all.
That's also true, but I figured that ship has probably already sailed at this point...
Out of curiosity, why? I may well have missed it, but I haven't seen anything like a timeline or roadmap lately (I'm actually expecting at least a piece of one during the Adepticon Online Preview Adventure (1 hour only with frequent breaks. We know Chaos is coming, but obviously Nids are next and then... ?
They could slide in several things before they finally get around to the spiky boys.
Voss wrote: Best case is actually the WE codex comes out first, then the general codex follows. Then there isn't any gap at all.
That's also true, but I figured that ship has probably already sailed at this point...
Out of curiosity, why? I may well have missed it, but I haven't seen anything like a timeline or roadmap lately (I'm actually expecting at least a piece of one during the Adepticon Online Preview Adventure (1 hour only with frequent breaks. We know Chaos is coming, but obviously Nids are next and then... ?
They could slide in several things before they finally get around to the spiky boys.
IIRC rumours placed CSM codex for April. But I also remember that Chaos knights would come before CSM. But since we're late on original release schedule things are definitely fuzzy (even more so then with usual rumours)
Voss wrote: Best case is actually the WE codex comes out first, then the general codex follows. Then there isn't any gap at all.
That's also true, but I figured that ship has probably already sailed at this point...
Out of curiosity, why? I may well have missed it, but I haven't seen anything like a timeline or roadmap lately (I'm actually expecting at least a piece of one during the Adepticon Online Preview Adventure (1 hour only with frequent breaks. We know Chaos is coming, but obviously Nids are next and then... ?
They could slide in several things before they finally get around to the spiky boys.
I just figure with all the leaks in recent months we'd have heard something about WE aside from "they aren't in the CSM codex" if they were being released before it
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: They always try to make sure the CSM codex is slightly weaker than the SM codex. Ever since that one time it wasn't and Chaos won the Eye of Terror campaign by mistake.
Can't have the bad guys winning apparently
"But everyone is the bad guy in 40k !"
Nope. There is no good or evil. Only strong and weak.
Were I a WE player I'd be quite happy to not be included in the upcoming CSM book, given what we've learned. Sure maybe the WE book won't be any better but realistically it definitely won't be any worse.
blood reaper wrote: It is amazing how every reveal so far has been like "What? It can't possibly get worse!" and then it manages to get even worse.
It's almost like an inverse of the nids book, which by contrast feels a very well rounded and constructed book. The rumours kinda feel like the usual "we didn't know what direction to go in sooooo... err..... here's a stab in the dark"
blood reaper wrote: It is amazing how every reveal so far has been like "What? It can't possibly get worse!" and then it manages to get even worse.
It's almost like an inverse of the nids book, which by contrast feels a very well rounded and constructed book. The rumours kinda feel like the usual "we didn't know what direction to go in sooooo... err..... here's a stab in the dark"
Gw hasn't known what to do with CSM for going on 15 years. Where's Andy Chambers when we need him?
(Yes, I know he's writing games for other companies, but still. )
The sad thing is I'm meeting more and more people with this actual mindset. A friend of mine who is a really good minipainter refuses to paint anything that isnt an "official" color scheme and thinks conversions and even kitbashes are and I quote "really weird and ruin the immersion of the game".
He said this after seeing a squad of Raptors I made that had the possessed wing back packs instead of the normal jump packs........
Yikes
In the past we had awesome conversions, etc, even in wd... Now , we got Kits which we need to be happy if they got the full basic equipment.
Nvm options. And if you got old stuff that you converted/ collected together to achieve specific units like AT-chosen , nope can't have that either anymore...
The sad thing is I'm meeting more and more people with this actual mindset. A friend of mine who is a really good minipainter refuses to paint anything that isnt an "official" color scheme and thinks conversions and even kitbashes are and I quote "really weird and ruin the immersion of the game".
He said this after seeing a squad of Raptors I made that had the possessed wing back packs instead of the normal jump packs........
Yikes
In the past we had awesome conversions, etc, even in wd... Now , we got Kits which we need to be happy if they got the full basic equipment.
Don't worry, if the kit doesn't have the full basic equiptment now, I'm sure GW will fix that in the rules next book.
10th Edition Ork Boys with mandated mix of Shootas and Choppas after the old kit is axed, here we come!
Well i am pretty much done anyways, recent pricehikes and me finishing my last projects i wanted to complete, whilest the one thing 8-9th supposedly had over 6-7 being balance and that just not existing because of course .... With even more ludicrous prices... Yeah gonna get some use out of older books instead.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: How long has it been since GW promised two wounds for all Space Marines, by the way? I think it's around two years by now.
I've spent the last year in a timeless void. That number sounds both right and wrong.
Has to be wrong, though, since 9th came out the end of summer and Space Marines codex was in the fall. October 2020. So, 18 months or so. Give or take leaks and previews.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I wonder why World Eater players are the most calm ones around here. They have little to no information at all and peoples armies are at risk of loosing access to several units. Props for that
I stopped having much hope they would remember the World Eaters even exist more than a decade ago.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: How long has it been since GW promised two wounds for all Space Marines, by the way? I think it's around two years by now.
I've spent the last year in a timeless void. That number sounds both right and wrong.
Has to be wrong, though, since 9th came out the end of summer and Space Marines codex was in the fall. October 2020. So, 18 months or so. Give or take leaks and previews.
I went-a digging, and apparently it's been over 19 months, with the change being announced on exactly 13th of August 2020.
Yeah, it's insane. When they first announced that the CSM have to wait for their codex to get the two wounds, I assumed that this obviously means that their codex is right around the corner. But nope, here we are nineteen months later...
Worse than that, and as I've said a number of times over the years, the Chaos Codex would be better served by being delayed even later to allow for a full World Eater and Emperor's Children Codices to come out, lest we end up in a situation where the Chaos Codex has some Cult units with full rules and others with bare bones rules from ancient (and incompatible) kits.
Unfortunately, GW found a way to somehow make that even worse, so now the book won't even have Cult units, except the dilapidated Noise Marines, leaving WE players with nothing for the foreseeable future.
Tyranids caught a break. Chaos got what they usually get: The pointy end of the stick.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Worse than that, and as I've said a number of times over the years, the Chaos Codex would be better served by being delayed even later to allow for a full World Eater and Emperor's Children Codices to come out, lest we end up in a situation where the Chaos Codex has some Cult units with full rules and others with bare bones rules from ancient (and incompatible) kits.
Unfortunately, GW found a way to somehow make that even worse, so now the book won't even have Cult units, except the dilapidated Noise Marines, leaving WE players with nothing for the foreseeable future.
Tyranids caught a break. Chaos got what they usually get: The pointy end of the stick.
Ok, but it's almost guaranteed that GW will use the CSM release as the reveal of the WE expansion if they haven't already shown it off by then. Regardless of your personal opinions on GW's decision making having a first founding legion missing from the book is something they can't ignore.
My guess would be a download pdf on WarCom with largely unchanged holdover rules updated to match the new CSM book with a "WE coming Q? 202?-ish"
Would it be better to pop out WE and EC before CSM? Sure. But certain very vocal segments of the community couldn't even handle the last CSM update coming "so close" after DG without screaming bloody murder. So trying to do Chaos Knights, WE, EC, and CSM near back to back would probably birth a new Chaos god...
The amount of mess that releasing CSM prior to WE would imply, makes me really doubt that we will see this order of releases at all. We have quite many Khorne based Rumor Engines already, maybe WE will drop sooner than we think?
Btw I wonder when GW will release the update for the CSM from KT:Nachmund. We have new weapon options but no 40k rules to use along yet. I wouldn’t wonder to see GW release the update to Legionaries soon, maxbe even with the 2W stat
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Is there any actual clues that we might get a WE Codex, or is that all pure rumours and conjecture?
There’s nothing official from GW if that’s what you mean, but World Eaters were mentioned in the still extremely correct big leak. Doesn’t specify a codex but I don’t see why it wouldn’t be.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Is there any actual clues that we might get a WE Codex, or is that all pure rumours and conjecture?
There’s nothing official from GW if that’s what you mean, but World Eaters were mentioned in the still extremely correct big leak. Doesn’t specify a codex but I don’t see why it wouldn’t be.
Surely there would be some rather World Eater-esque rumour engines though, wouldn't there?
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:The amount of mess that releasing CSM prior to WE would imply, makes me really doubt that we will see this order of releases at all. We have quite many Khorne based Rumor Engines already, maybe WE will drop sooner than we think?
Btw I wonder when GW will release the update for the CSM from KT:Nachmund. We have new weapon options but no 40k rules to use along yet. I wouldn’t wonder to see GW release the update to Legionaries soon, maxbe even with the 2W stat
There really aren't that many clearly Khorne looking Rumor Engines though. And between having a very trustworthy leak of the CSM update which was stated to be coming soon, a partial update release with Eldritch Omens, and no details on the WE release other than it's existence/absence from the CSM codex it would be hard to imagine that WE were coming before CSM.
Especially given than WE won't likely be just a quick dump and run update like a loyalist Space Marine Supplement. At the very least it will likely be a TS sized and at best DG sized release. Absolute worst case scenario could be a new box of Berzerkers and a codex containing 98% CSM units, but I think even GW knows how badly that'd go.
Regarding the KT upgrade, if GW follows their current pattern then the 40k rules could be either in Nachmund or on WarCom and then hopefully reprinted in the CSM book. The bundled kit likely won't be sold seperately until the next KT box set releases.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Is there any actual clues that we might get a WE Codex, or is that all pure rumours and conjecture?
There’s nothing official from GW if that’s what you mean, but World Eaters were mentioned in the still extremely correct big leak. Doesn’t specify a codex but I don’t see why it wouldn’t be.
Surely there would be some rather World Eater-esque rumour engines though, wouldn't there?
GW makes the rules when it comes to what shows up in the Rumor Engines so no we have no way of knowing. They seem to like leaving some ambiguity of what the images are for though which could mean that the new WE stuff is so obvious what it is that they don't want to spoil it. Or it could be that the WE release is not coming as soon as we think it is. Because even what I said earlier about GW "having to address the missing berzerkers in the room" when CSM drops, that could just be a "Hey looks like there's no WE here, have a dataslate. WE coming eventually." with no visual teasers if they're worried about hyping it up too soon.
That said, there are a few that might be WE related:
These could be Angrons wings since they look similar to the plastic Bloodthirser wings. The size seems off however and they could also fit a Jabberslythe (which we've gotten another rumor engine picture of)
Spoiler:
This is almost certainly Khorne related though whether it's for Daemons, a marine, or some mutation is hard to say.
Spoiler:
I think this is the most likely WE teaser so far. It looks more sterile/engineered than what I'd expect for AoS and seems to be part of some butcher/chopping weapon. The bare arm could mean it's something for Corpse Grinder Cults (if GW ever gives them anything again...) but WE are also not unknown for going sleeveless.
Spoiler:
This one seems a little less likely as it looks a little to "dainty" for something Khornate, though it's also not clear what Chaos army it would fit (looks a little like a reimagined Huron though)
Spoiler:
Everyone seemed to think this would be for the new Warpsmith howeverwhile it could still be CSM, I think there's a chance it's WE. The forge motif of the side vent would fit in with Khorne and the way the handle is shaded makes it look as though it could be made of bone.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: The amount of mess that releasing CSM prior to WE would imply, makes me really doubt that we will see this order of releases at all. We have quite many Khorne based Rumor Engines already, maybe WE will drop sooner than we think?
Btw I wonder when GW will release the update for the CSM from KT:Nachmund. We have new weapon options but no 40k rules to use along yet. I wouldn’t wonder to see GW release the update to Legionaries soon, maxbe even with the 2W stat
CSM are not getting 2W until the 9th edition codex. Gw has had plenty of opportunities to do it since announcing that it will happen, the most recent being the release of the new Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box, but haven't done it. They're going for "maximum manufactured discontent" with Chaos players. Expect nothing before the codex.
And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.
So just like they promised 19 months ago.
Nothing to see here but the ongoing discontent of CSM players. Do we have any Edition 3.5 Codex comments to add
But seriously, GW is taking their own sweet time getting around to the basic Heretic Astartes. I understand why it isn’t “a simple FAQ” job to give them more wounds, but it’s looking like 2 years from the initial announcement. Oof.
And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.
So just like they promised 19 months ago.
Nothing to see here but the ongoing discontent of CSM players. Do we have any Edition 3.5 Codex comments to add
But seriously, GW is taking their own sweet time getting around to the basic Heretic Astartes. I understand why it isn’t “a simple FAQ” job to give them more wounds, but it’s looking like 2 years from the initial announcement. Oof.
By all accounts they're expanding the section of the roster with 1w ironically as well, so it'll be "here's 2 wounds, enjoy some more 1w models!"
Cool, cool.
Elf players, here's all your stuff.
...
...
Oh, hey chaos riffraff. We're just... just going to go. What, these kits? They're coming with us- you weren't buying them anyway.
Oh, did you expect a heads up or something on your half of Eldritch Omens? No? Bye.
Voss wrote: Oh, hey chaos riffraff. We're just... just going to go. What, these kits? They're coming with us- you weren't buying them anyway.
People on here knew about it on Friday, now other people will know. And yes, generally it follows that if you haven't bought the Chaos models listed, all of which are web order only, you weren't buying them anyway.
Oh, did you expect a heads up or something on your half of Eldritch Omens? No? Bye.
What? Did you expect the Chaos stuff to not come out with the Codex? The Codex that might show up at the Adepticon preview on Thursday?
The Eldritch Omens models are probably cheaper on ebay right now than they will be when gw gives them a separate release. Those cardboard boxes aren't cheap, y'know.
So, if the Jump Lord is just being "rotated", then I guess there's some hope that our characters won't be losing their jump packs. Hmmm....hope. Feels weird. It probably won't last long, though.
Oh, did you expect a heads up or something on your half of Eldritch Omens? No? Bye.
What? Did you expect the Chaos stuff to not come out with the Codex? The Codex that might show up at the Adepticon preview on Thursday?
I didn't expect the eldar so soon. usually its several months for versus boxes to become solo releases. But given that they're setting elfs loose in the world, an update about the chaos models seems warranted. Or polite. Or a token gesture. Not absolute silence and a complete lack of anything. And given the chaos release is supposed to be multiple kits, no, I do not. I'd expect the EO solo releases to happen separately so the codex release weekend isn't overcrowded.
No idea why you'd expect the chaos codex in the Adepticon preview. I mean, absolutely none. They're in mid-hype about the tyranid book, and rumors point to knights before marines (and said rumormonger has been reliable to a fault so far). At best, I expect a short roadmap of the next three codex releases, but only a vague mention by super faction (imperial, chaos, xenos)
People talk about how the autarch fix was GW taking a step in the right direction, but to me it really just peeves me off because it shows they can easily fix their weird design restrictions but they continue to ignore it for no reason. It genuinely seems like they hate certain factions.
How bad does the team at GW have to be to not know what to do with EVIL SPACE MARINES. Its such a simple concept that writes itself. I could design crazy demon engines in my sleep.
Restricted loadouts with no weapon options is unacceptable for plastic kits of non-named characters if you ask me.
GW miniatures are fine but my friends and I have moved on when it comes to their rules writing. Onepagerules is a great alternative and pretty dang fun if you ask me.
I am quite sure Adepticon will show Chaos Knights. We already have them teased from the new years trailer. When there is one thing that GW is reliable on, it is that stuff teased will be released first before new teasers. We currently still miss one Guard Related and one Chaos Knight related model from the teaser.
But yeah, it is hard to deny that GW tends to treat some factions way worse than others. I cannot get rid of the feel that the designers are simply having no love/motivation for Chaos currently
Don Savik wrote: People talk about how the autarch fix was GW taking a step in the right direction, but to me it really just peeves me off because it shows they can easily fix their weird design restrictions but they continue to ignore it for no reason. It genuinely seems like they hate certain factions.
How bad does the team at GW have to be to not know what to do with EVIL SPACE MARINES. Its such a simple concept that writes itself. I could design crazy demon engines in my sleep.
To be fair to GW, a good chunk of CSM players hate the daemon engines (or at least have no use for them) and _really, really_ despise the idea that their faction is just 'Space Marines, but Evil.'
So that puts up some design constraints.
Don Savik wrote: People talk about how the autarch fix was GW taking a step in the right direction, but to me it really just peeves me off because it shows they can easily fix their weird design restrictions but they continue to ignore it for no reason. It genuinely seems like they hate certain factions.
How bad does the team at GW have to be to not know what to do with EVIL SPACE MARINES. Its such a simple concept that writes itself. I could design crazy demon engines in my sleep.
To be fair to GW, a good chunk of CSM players hate the daemon engines (or at least have no use for them) and _really, really_ despise the idea that their faction is just 'Space Marines, but Evil.'
So that puts up some design constraints.
Well if instead of lackluster dinobots we would've gotten more things like hellblades and decimators then most people would be more than happy about more daemonengines.
Some people like daemon engines some don't. Which is fine, because the CSM roster is deep enough that you should be able to take what you like, and leave the rest. My only problem is when it seems like gw is trying to push us towards daemon engines and away from our other vehicle options through rules.
Sasori wrote: The Dinobots are not bad, but the Venomcrawler and Helstalker are much more of the design style I'd like to see going forward.
They're too much Daemon Engine for my tastes, and not enough Daemon Engine.
It's why I prefer things like the Defiler, the Brass Scorpion, and so on: Clearly mechanical things built to be inhabited by Daemonic entities rather than metallic Daemons.
They're nice, but CSM isn't Dark Mechanicus. It's nice to have some things but the focus really is going off CSM in general aint it. Including the fallen out of the wayside actual vehicles.
Sasori wrote: The Dinobots are not bad, but the Venomcrawler and Helstalker are much more of the design style I'd like to see going forward.
They're too much Daemon Engine for my tastes, and not enough Daemon Engine.
It's why I prefer things like the Defiler, the Brass Scorpion, and so on: Clearly mechanical things built to be inhabited by Daemonic entities rather than metallic Daemons.
I have similar feelings about the Helbrute. I don't enjoy the bulbous fleshy-ness of it. The Venomcrawler pulls back from that a bit, at least.
Sasori wrote: The Dinobots are not bad, but the Venomcrawler and Helstalker are much more of the design style I'd like to see going forward.
They're too much Daemon Engine for my tastes, and not enough Daemon Engine.
It's why I prefer things like the Defiler, the Brass Scorpion, and so on: Clearly mechanical things built to be inhabited by Daemonic entities rather than metallic Daemons.
I have similar feelings about the Helbrute. I don't enjoy the bulbous fleshy-ness of it. The Venomcrawler pulls back from that a bit, at least.
The lack of an "un-mutated" plastic Chaos Dreadnought is annoying. Personally, I'm happy using fw dreads instead. But that isn't the case for everyone because fw isn't a viable option for them for various reasons. It doesn't help that gw decided to actively penalize you for using them either.
Voss wrote:They're running out of things to stack in front of Chaos Marines.
Maybe two wounds won't ever happen: 10th will be a complete revision and knock over the board before chaos comes.
The codex will probably come in August, because gw would probably find it hilarious dropping it exactly two years after telling us that we'll be getting 2W.
Sasori wrote: The Dinobots are not bad, but the Venomcrawler and Helstalker are much more of the design style I'd like to see going forward.
They're too much Daemon Engine for my tastes, and not enough Daemon Engine.
It's why I prefer things like the Defiler, the Brass Scorpion, and so on: Clearly mechanical things built to be inhabited by Daemonic entities rather than metallic Daemons.
I have similar feelings about the Helbrute. I don't enjoy the bulbous fleshy-ness of it. The Venomcrawler pulls back from that a bit, at least.
The lack of an "un-mutated" plastic Chaos Dreadnought is annoying. Personally, I'm happy using fw dreads instead. But that isn't the case for everyone because fw isn't a viable option for them for various reasons. It doesn't help that gw decided to actively penalize you for using them either.
I still can't believe GW gave the psychic Dreadnought to Blood Angels, instead of the Legion that literally invented them.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The codex will probably come in August, because gw would probably find it hilarious dropping it exactly two years after telling us that we'll be getting 2W.
My serious guess would be trying to cram it in in may before HH comes out, which will probably dominate July and August. Hopefully the preview gives us an idea.
I'd expect them to space it out from HH, so they don't cannibalize each other.
But that window seems to be collapsing, and their aren't many books left to act as spacers or get out before either a new edition or Psychic Awakening-style filler garbage.
I have also been happy to see the scaling back of fleshiness on more recent daemon engines. Leave the full on flesh-is-machine vibe for the obliterator cults.
Ahh... I liked the S User guns on the Venomcrawler. Was fun to mix them with Greater Possessed... which don't exist anyway, so I guess that's a wash.
2+ though? That's a surprise. I mean, I've always said that Daemon Engines should be more accomplished at hitting things in melee than Guardsmen (WS/BS4+ for Daemon Engines was a joke), but 2+? Yikes. That might be going too far.
Honestly I'm surprised that Oblits aren't 1-2 in a unit. For feth's sake I wish they'd do a separate Ogryn-style kit of 3 really cool modular Oblits with so many different guns that no 3 should ever look the same... and then a separate Venomcrawler and let them be in squadrons of 3.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Okayyy....New rumours from B&C courtesy of Clockworkchris (and at least one of these is going to make some people angry):
Squad sizes:
Legionaires: 5-10
Terminators: 5-10
Havocs: 5
Obliterators: 1-3
Chosen: 5-10
Apparently there is only one fight/shoot twice stratagem in the codex, and it only applies to LEGIONAIRES.
Fine. I get why some might be irritated, but that marines don't come off as a huge pack of vermin actually feels a little better.
I'd rather they ditch shoot/fight twice altogether, but limiting to the basic unit doesn't bother me. It feels more thematic (and a reason to take the basic unit, rather than ditch them immediately)
Meh? Its fast and 2+ is good, but after a leak full of monstrous creatures, even the carnifex is sneering at that. Customization, for one (something chaos apparently knows nothing of and: 2+ save -1 damage and _8_ S7 AP4 attacks (adrenals and chitin thorns wargear) that are damage 3, plus tails and whatever.
This, on the other hand, seems quite dangerous on paper. Problem, as always, is delivery. And any stupid random special rules that will make them worse.
Sasori wrote: I was hoping the Venomcrawler would be a bit more beefy... Wonder if you can take them in squads now. Otherwise that seems pretty weak.
Going from 10 wounds to 9 is actually a pretty good move, as it won't degrade anymore. Worked out well for Contemptors. Though I do find it annoying that WS2 was just TOO GOOD for our Relic Dreadnoughts, but ok for the Venomcrawler, apparently.
Sasori wrote: I was hoping the Venomcrawler would be a bit more beefy... Wonder if you can take them in squads now. Otherwise that seems pretty weak.
Going from 10 wounds to 9 is actually a pretty good move, as it won't degrade anymore. Worked out well for Contemptors. Though I do find it annoying that WS2 was just TOO GOOD for our Relic Dreadnoughts, but ok for the Venomcrawler, apparently.
FW is too broken for WS2+ Contemptors, you know that!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also LOOOOOOL at the CSM squad cap. It isn't like anyone ran 20 man squads anyway but I love how GW is gonna do arbitrary changes for the sake of it.
I'm more or less indifferent to all of that... except for Legionnaires being capped at 10... I currently own like 130 of them, wtf am I supposed to do with that many legionnaires now?? lol
Meh? Its fast and 2+ is good, but after a leak full of monstrous creatures, even the carnifex is sneering at that. Customization, for one (something chaos apparently knows nothing of and: 2+ save -1 damage and _8_ S7 AP4 attacks (adrenals and chitin thorns wargear) that are damage 3, plus tails and whatever.
Definitely appears weaker, but it depends on its special rules. Carnifexes may have 2+, but VC has 5++. It's much faster, better BS and WS, a gun on top of a decent melee profile. Some extra layers could at least put it more in the Carnifex ballpark.
Sasori wrote: I was hoping the Venomcrawler would be a bit more beefy... Wonder if you can take them in squads now. Otherwise that seems pretty weak.
Going from 10 wounds to 9 is actually a pretty good move, as it won't degrade anymore. Worked out well for Contemptors. Though I do find it annoying that WS2 was just TOO GOOD for our Relic Dreadnoughts, but ok for the Venomcrawler, apparently.
Sure, that's fine if it was going to stay at 10w, but most Vehicles have been going up in wounds, not down. I was sort of expecting it something like 12 or more Wounds.
Meh? Its fast and 2+ is good, but after a leak full of monstrous creatures, even the carnifex is sneering at that. Customization, for one (something chaos apparently knows nothing of and: 2+ save -1 damage and _8_ S7 AP4 attacks (adrenals and chitin thorns wargear) that are damage 3, plus tails and whatever.
Definitely appears weaker, but it depends on its special rules. Carnifexes may have 2+, but VC has 5++. It's much faster, better BS and WS, a gun on top of a decent melee profile. Some extra layers could at least put it more in the Carnifex ballpark.
Eh, is a Venomcrawler really supposed to compare to something like a Carnifex in a fistfight? I'd think that would be more of a job for a Maulerfiend, at least as far as daemon engines are concerned. The Venomcrawler looks more geared towards taking on MEQs.
Thanks for the relay ! Like always it all depends on points but at WS2 the venom crawler might be nice ! (If only for the consistency). And the 2 Dmg guns are nice !
6 attacks base, hitting on 2s, so 5 will hit, at s7, so against marines 3-ish will wound, at ap-3, so maybe 2 will get through and you've got two dead primaris if they don't transhuman.
I mean, sure? At the end of the day, I bet GW will make us pay a premium in points for this little guy just for the privilege of having WS2+
Sasori wrote: I was hoping the Venomcrawler would be a bit more beefy... Wonder if you can take them in squads now. Otherwise that seems pretty weak.
Going from 10 wounds to 9 is actually a pretty good move, as it won't degrade anymore. Worked out well for Contemptors. Though I do find it annoying that WS2 was just TOO GOOD for our Relic Dreadnoughts, but ok for the Venomcrawler, apparently.
Sure, that's fine if it was going to stay at 10w, but most Vehicles have been going up in wounds, not down. I was sort of expecting it something like 12 or more Wounds.
Sounds like the usual 9th Ed stat shift on the Venomcrawler. I wonder a bit why people react so negative alredy. Powercreep of the edition should be on our side. The only downside in my eyes is D2 feeling often like D1 due to the sheer amount of ,reduce damage’ rules. If the costs are right then the venomcrawler will be a good nasty unit that hits too hard to be ignored. If it is affected by the Doctrine rule then the exploding hits will up it’s output a bit more, especially in EC
I really like the new possesed stats. Putting them in a transport and dashing towards an enemy in a rhino sounds fun. I wonder what Stratagems and Synnergy we will have for deamonic units and deamon engines.
As for the legionary cap I have to say that this is unexpected. The name suggests that the unit will put a load of models on the table, therefore I assumed GW will rather put the minimal unit size on 10. The ability to fight/shoot twice locked on them is not really unexpected considering that was the baseline in the whole edition so far. I honestly prefer my default dudes to hit twice rather than noise marines.
We are back at old school gw, except with monetised patches and a PR team.
Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Which units are you thinking of that'll efficiently clear 20 marines via blast?
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Most blast weapons aren't dropping MEQs very effectively and just because people think it's strong now doesn't mean it's going to be strong in the future. Remember, GW likely started work on 10th edition as soon as last year and is likely already incorporating ideas into codexes as a means of testing (crossfire, Tau doing actions for Markerlights both being examples of possible future mechanics).
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Which units are you thinking of that'll efficiently clear 20 marines via blast?
I'd like to know too because blast has been more of a potential boogeyman than one I've actually seen or heard of having any major impact on games played.
I'd like to know too because blast has been more of a potential boogeyman than one I've actually seen or heard of having any major impact on games played.
That's because for most armies, blast is a problem solved at the army list step, not a game play problem. And you generally want MSU anyway, so that makes blast doubly irrelevant.
The few true horde units left die to normal basic weapons fire (especially late 9th 'basic' weapons), so blast isn't really a consideration. In all honestly its mostly a detriment on vehicle weapons (can't fire in melee)
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
If GW really thought 40 wound blobs were a problem, they wouldn't have made Primaris Crusaders exist in their current form.
While some competitive lists have included PCrusader blobs (as opposed to MSU 10 strong squads) in them, they usually stick to 14-15 models large and even then you wouldn't call those lists oppressive.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
If GW really thought 40 wound blobs were a problem, they wouldn't have made Primaris Crusaders exist in their current form.
While some competitive lists have included PCrusader blobs (as opposed to MSU 10 strong squads) in them, they usually stick to 14-15 models large and even then you wouldn't call those lists oppressive.
Primaris Crusaders have 4+ saves on at least half their models to get to 20 models. And they don't have access to psyker buffs without allies which bring other penalties.
Sasori wrote: I was hoping the Venomcrawler would be a bit more beefy... Wonder if you can take them in squads now. Otherwise that seems pretty weak.
Going from 10 wounds to 9 is actually a pretty good move, as it won't degrade anymore. Worked out well for Contemptors. Though I do find it annoying that WS2 was just TOO GOOD for our Relic Dreadnoughts, but ok for the Venomcrawler, apparently.
Sure, that's fine if it was going to stay at 10w, but most Vehicles have been going up in wounds, not down. I was sort of expecting it something like 12 or more Wounds.
So 10w and degrading would have been preferable?
No, that's not what I said. I agreed that if it were to stay at 10W and Degrade, 9W is preferable.I expected it to gain more wounds since most vehicles units have gained wounds and that 12W degrading is preferable to 9W non-degrading.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
If GW really thought 40 wound blobs were a problem, they wouldn't have made Primaris Crusaders exist in their current form.
While some competitive lists have included PCrusader blobs (as opposed to MSU 10 strong squads) in them, they usually stick to 14-15 models large and even then you wouldn't call those lists oppressive.
Primaris Crusaders have 4+ saves on at least half their models to get to 20 models. And they don't have access to psyker buffs without allies which bring other penalties.
A BT Chaplain can put out many similar buffs to a Psyker though, such as 5+ FNP, psychic immunity, +1 attack on charging/being charged/intervening, mortals wound in melee or a second Vow.
Not to mention the other buffs they can get from other characters (+1 strength and rerolls from Helbrecht, Gimaldus has his own 6+ FNP aura and improved advances). Furthermore in a world with increasing AP values, the difference between a 3+ and a 4+ isn't all that large when all the models already have a 5++.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
If GW really thought 40 wound blobs were a problem, they wouldn't have made Primaris Crusaders exist in their current form.
While some competitive lists have included PCrusader blobs (as opposed to MSU 10 strong squads) in them, they usually stick to 14-15 models large and even then you wouldn't call those lists oppressive.
Primaris Crusaders have 4+ saves on at least half their models to get to 20 models. And they don't have access to psyker buffs without allies which bring other penalties.
A BT Chaplain can put out many similar buffs to a Psyker though, such as 5+ FNP, psychic immunity, +1 attack on charging/being charged/intervening, mortals wound in melee or a second Vow.
Not to mention the other buffs they can get from other characters (+1 strength and rerolls from Helbrecht, Gimaldus has his own 6+ FNP aura and improved advances). Furthermore in a world with increasing AP values, the difference between a 3+ and a 4+ isn't all that large when all the models already have a 5++.
3 psychic disciplines plus Dark Apostles plus who knows what buffs they're adding to the CSM codex on top of that. It's not a like for like comparison no matter how you try and split it.
Wait what's the 3rd discipline? Dark Hereticus at the moment has only two targetable buffs, one of which these rumour has already said has been nerfed (Warptime). Malefic is rumoured to only work on Daemonkin and Dark Apostles will probably only draw their prayers from a single list (unlike Templars that have 2 lists they can draw from).
Also saying "20 blob squads would (not could) be a problem because if they have 40 wounds because GW may or may not have added buffs we don't know about elsewhere in the codex" isn't exactly the most compelling arguement, especially since GW has balanced stratagems (I assume those are what you mean?) with a scaling cost based on unit size before.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Wait what's the 3rd discipline? Dark Hereticus at the moment has only two targetable buffs, one of which these rumour has already said has been nerfed (Warptime). Malefic is rumoured to only work on Daemonkin and Dark Apostles will probably only draw their prayers from a single list (unlike Templars that have 2 lists they can draw from).
Also saying "20 blob squads would (not could) be a problem because if they have 40 wounds because GW may or may not have added buffs we don't know about elsewhere in the codex" isn't exactly the most compelling arguement, especially since GW has balanced stratagems (I assume those are what you mean?) with a scaling cost based on unit size before.
I don't care how "compelling" you find it the point because it still stands. Just because it wouldn't be strong in the current codex doesn't mean it can't or won't be strong in the next one.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Wait what's the 3rd discipline? Dark Hereticus at the moment has only two targetable buffs, one of which these rumour has already said has been nerfed (Warptime). Malefic is rumoured to only work on Daemonkin and Dark Apostles will probably only draw their prayers from a single list (unlike Templars that have 2 lists they can draw from).
Also saying "20 blob squads would (not could) be a problem because if they have 40 wounds because GW may or may not have added buffs we don't know about elsewhere in the codex" isn't exactly the most compelling arguement, especially since GW has balanced stratagems (I assume those are what you mean?) with a scaling cost based on unit size before.
I don't care how "compelling" you find it the point because it still stands. Just because it wouldn't be strong in the current codex doesn't mean it can't or won't be strong in the next one.
And also doesn't mean it would be either. You'd need to be able to give them a lot of stacking buffs to be on par with what Black Templars can do, and Templars still don't take 20 strong blobs.
Unless GW decided top stop balancing stratagem cost on unit size or Hereticus (a discipline that's historically more about targeting enemies than buff your own units) or Dark Prayers completely full of broken buffs, I can't see how a blob of CSMs could match let alone be overwhelmingly more strong than what Templars can already do.
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Most blast weapons aren't dropping MEQs very effectively and just because people think it's strong now doesn't mean it's going to be strong in the future. Remember, GW likely started work on 10th edition as soon as last year and is likely already incorporating ideas into codexes as a means of testing (crossfire, Tau doing actions for Markerlights both being examples of possible future mechanics).
Not Online!!! wrote: Edit: Also lol, "legionaires" fighting in batches of 5-10 only as if the one thing doctrinal that they have over their loyalist cousins wasn't massed training....
Thanks gw.
Balance had to be made for gaining a wound. I know someone is going to immediately reply and say 20 model blobs weren't a problem, but at 40 wounds they would be a problem.
Lol no, have you Seen the damage in blast weapons in average?
Which units are you thinking of that'll efficiently clear 20 marines via blast?
I'd like to know too because blast has been more of a potential boogeyman than one I've actually seen or heard of having any major impact on games played.
Most blast weapons have d2 /3, hell a 20 man chaos marine unit is what 360 pts appropriatly? For that you get how many koptas with twin rockits 7? And koptas aren't even particulary amazing and they yet would still wash the enemy in 12 wounds that kill kill atleast 10.
Most blast weapons and the d2 inflation will make any legionariesquad over 11 a bad choice, thats my point, it would've never have gotten problematic so to speak.
tneva82 wrote: Rather than blast just worry about all the dam2 weapons out there. W2 in 9e is basically W1 in 8e.
D2 is kept in check by -1D on dreads, DG, and know what looks to be knights as well. If they allowed 20 man blobs AND they became popular then it might be worth running a lot of D2, but at present it most definitely is not something you spam.
b-b-b-but they have a facebook page and posted this self-aware meme!!!
And that facebook page got you an autarch that can equip itself properly. What do you think the odds of something like that would be in older editions in between the 5 year FAQs?
Most blast weapons have d2 /3, hell a 20 man chaos marine unit is what 360 pts appropriatly? For that you get how many koptas with twin rockits 7? And koptas aren't even particulary amazing and they yet would still wash the enemy in 12 wounds that kill kill atleast 10.
Most blast weapons and the d2 inflation will make any legionariesquad over 11 a bad choice, thats my point, it would've never have gotten problematic so to speak.
6 shots a piece - 42 shots * .333 * .833 * .666 = 7.8 MEQ. If they're in cover it's 6. Without blast and no cover they would kill 5.2, so there isn't a huge gap there.
More rumours from B&C courtesy of Clockworkchris. And I remind everyone that these are rumours, and the person providing them says they're coming from early playtest rules, not an actual codex:
Possessed are M9
All "standard weapons", IE bolters, chainswords, lascannons, are the same profile as current.
New stratagems:
+1 to hit for Terminators and Chosen.
Fire Frenzy: Shooting Phase - if a HELLBRUTE has been hit, it can fire at the unit that hit it or the closest enemy unit. (I assume that this is in the opponent's Shooting Phase).
Gadzilla666 wrote: More rumours from B&C courtesy of Clockworkchris. And I remind everyone that these are rumours, and the person providing them says they're coming from early playtest rules, not an actual codex:
Possessed are M9.
Combined with the S/T/W/A improvements from earlier, and the damage profile, that's really tasty.
They won't need a rhino tax to get across the board, I guess.
Gadzilla666 wrote: More rumours from B&C courtesy of Clockworkchris. And I remind everyone that these are rumours, and the person providing them says they're coming from early playtest rules, not an actual codex:
Possessed are M9.
Combined with the S/T/W/A improvements from earlier, and the damage profile, that's really tasty.
They won't need a rhino tax to get across the board, I guess.
Which is good, because they probably won't be able to embark in Rhinos, if Death Guard Possessed are anything to go by. With that statline, and Mark of Nurgle for -1 to wound, they shouldn't have much trouble hoofing it.
trait to work they need to load up on: Raptors (makes sense), Daemon Princes and Possessed (in the Legion known for avoiding Chaos worship), and Mutant Culstists and Spawn (in the Legion known to have the least amount of mutations, because of that whole avoiding Chaos worship thing). So once again, 
Combined with the S/T/W/A improvements from earlier, and the damage profile, that's really tasty.