buddha wrote: So question for anyone who has figured the point system out yet. Is the wargear cost included in the basic profile and the point sheet for additions or changes or does everyone have to pay for everything listed or added? Seems like a lot of book keeping for the latter.
From the way it looks, the price listed for a unit is for them naked. You have to buy any and all wargear that they have. So a Terminator has to buy his storm bolter and power fist. The only exception is the Named Characters.
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Cephalobeard wrote: Slightly annoying the Primaris appear to be getting an additional codex after release, along with Death Guard.
Agreed. But if the units come with their datasheet like what has been the norm for a while, that isn't as much of an annoyance to me.
This is from a page or 2 back I just copy and paste.
Necrons:
Reanimation protocols are made at the start of your movement phase. Roll a D6 for every slain model, on a 5+ it comes back. You can roll again in the following turns. You cannot roll if the whole unit is slain.
Living metal allows for automatically regaining lost wounds
Basic Gauss is 24" Rapid Fire **Ap-2**,
GaussCannon is Ap-3 Dmg Discipline 10
Warriors cost unchanged form 7th.
Monolith M6" W20 S8 T8 Save3+,
Gauss Flux Arc Heavy 3 S5 Ap-2,
Whip Heavy 6 S8 Ap-2
DmgD6. When it gets charged, roll on a D6 and if
4+ (or worse, depending on wounds lost)
charging unit gets D6 mortal wounds.
Yeah i have seen this. Byt just wonder if är have pic like the marine book.
Interesting to note that I haven't seen this posted yet but I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
Why do you guys think that tournaments are going to go over 2k? They could just go to 1.5 instead. Just because the points adjustment means that everything you take now is more expensive doesn't mean you up the points limit but keep it the same, results in new lists and more interesting decisions at the list building stage that way
luke1705 wrote: Interesting to note that I haven't seen this posted yet but I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
And it looks like Skyfire has been changed to "+1 to hit" against targets that have the "Fly" keyword.
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Cephalobeard wrote: Slightly annoying the Primaris appear to be getting an additional codex after release, along with Death Guard.
It's not really surprising. That's the way it went with AoS; the starter box stuff got their books first.
luke1705 wrote: Interesting to note that I haven't seen this posted yet but I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
I was thinking the same RE FMC, but if you look at the Commander in coldstar suit, who was previously a FMC, he doesn't have the hard to hit rule
I'm disappointed with how they handled the Tau (specifically the crisis suits). I'm not commenting on the relative power level (which is impossible to gauge without playing) but rather the reliance on gimmicks instead of properly statting and costing the suits. Combined with the fluff/rules changes to my Astartes Secundus marine armies, it isn't looking good for me personally at first glance.
So basically you have the option to kit out most models however you want. For marines we can see that the basic bolter is free, so is the bolt pistol and CCW.
So you can choose if you want to go bolt pistol CCW, bolter, etc.
Then for other specialized things you can decide what upgrades to buy or not. We also see that for certain models the upgrade is free(like the crozius) but you still have the option to take other things if that is what you want. Meanhile the things with more options start off cheaper with less. Also it helps deal with trying to balance out weapon swaps. Instead of paying for that special issue bolter and then paying the same to get a plasma gun you just buy the plasma gun without worrying that you wasted points on the base guy getting the special issue bolter. I love it!!
It will take some getting used to but I like it!!! The versatility in building the models you want to build is amazing!! Now if we can see how IG was pointed for certain things to see if it is different across different factions.
So basically you have the option to kit out most models however you want. For marines we can see that the basic bolter is free, so is the bolt pistol and CCW.
So you can choose if you want to go bolt pistol CCW, bolter, etc.
Then for other specialized things you can decide what upgrades to buy or not. We also see that for certain models the upgrade is free(like the crozius) but you still have the option to take other things if that is what you want. Meanhile the things with more options start off cheaper with less. Also it helps deal with trying to balance out weapon swaps. Instead of paying for that special issue bolter and then paying the same to get a plasma gun you just buy the plasma gun without worrying that you wasted points on the base guy getting the special issue bolter. I love it!!
It will take some getting used to but I like it!!! The versatility in building the models you want to build is amazing!! Now if we can see how IG was pointed for certain things to see if it is different across different factions.
Why are you imagining that you can kit out things more freely than before? The dataslate still lists what equipment and option the unit has.
I really hope that we don't have a Primaris book drop until they have a well-rounded range, I don't think anyone wants another two-book release like we had for the Stormcast Battletome.
BroodSpawn wrote: Why do you guys think that tournaments are going to go over 2k? They could just go to 1.5 instead. Just because the points adjustment means that everything you take now is more expensive doesn't mean you up the points limit but keep it the same, results in new lists and more interesting decisions at the list building stage that way
Because the detachment that should be seeing the most play is the Battalion Detachment, which requires 2 HQ and 3 Troops. Jumping the price of those units up means that most of the armies will have little room for choice. Which means a Space Marine army is going to be pretty much a carbon copy of another Space Marine army at its core. And that just makes the game boring. More points equals more choice, which means more enjoyable gameplay.
Yeah, all I see that it does is control point values more specifically and with sweeping errata (if lascannons are underpriced, they just need to change 1 number in an army list)
BroodSpawn wrote: Why do you guys think that tournaments are going to go over 2k? They could just go to 1.5 instead. Just because the points adjustment means that everything you take now is more expensive doesn't mean you up the points limit but keep it the same, results in new lists and more interesting decisions at the list building stage that way
Because the detachment that should be seeing the most play is the Battalion Detachment, which requires 2 HQ and 3 Troops. Jumping the price of those units up means that most of the armies will have little room for choice. Which means a Space Marine army is going to be pretty much a carbon copy of another Space Marine army at its core. And that just makes the game boring. More points equals more choice, which means more enjoyable gameplay.
When I first saw the Battalion I thought it looked hard to get. Then I realised you're basically there with the marines from the starter. Just need 1 more squad of Intercessors.
I'm just browsing through the Tau rules but imho this is not looking good. Stealth suits now only get a -1 to hit penalty when you shoot them from over 12".. and ghosts keels a -2 (if the drone still lives). Guess stealth suits go back on the shelve again. Also all our template weapons are now useless, D6 hits? What a terrible joke, the only use they had was against hordes where you'd score and easy 6-8 hits, or deep striking units doing the same, how is an average of 3.5 HITS going to help against waves of ork boys or tyranid, sigh. Markerlights are pretty iffy, if you dont get 5 hits there is no +BS, just a reroll on 1 but I guess they are still required to get relentless as that has been removed from all our battlesuits as well.
Haha and get this, broadsides used to be 65 points, now they are 80 base with no weapons rofl. Yeah great they can get 2 HYMPs now, at 40 points a pop rofl. No wonder 2000pts games will no longer last as long, you can bring half the units now :'). Even the heavy rail rifle is 60 points doubling the cost of a single broadside. I'm at a loss for words here how the guy that wrote the tau faction focus was so excited..
Oh my god. The "Way of the Short Blade" rule. Like 40% of my gaming group play orks. They are gonna hate Farsight. They are lucky tought that I prefer much more Shadowsun
Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.
MoD_Legion wrote: I'm just browsing through the Tau rules but imho this is not looking good. Stealth suits now only get a -1 to hit penalty when you shoot them from over 12".. and ghosts keels a -2 (if the drone still lives). Guess stealth suits go back on the shelve again.
Yes, because -1 to be hit from over 12" coupled with the "Infantry" keyword(meaning they can automatically claim area cover) for a +1 bonus to their armor save.
Man. Stealth Suits are traaaaaash.
Also all our template weapons are now useless, D6 hits? What a terrible joke, the only use they had was against hordes where you'd score and easy 6-8 hits, or deep striking units doing the same, how is an average of 3.5 HITS going to help against waves of ork boys or tyranid, sigh.
Get over it. Everyone is in the same boat for templates.
Markerlights are pretty iffy, if you dont there is no +BS. I guess they are still required to get relentless as that has been removed from all our battlesuits as well.
Or you take a Target Lock as Support System...
Haha and get this, broadsides used to be 65 points, now they are 80 base with no weapons rofl. Yeah great they cam get 2 HYMPs now, at 40 points a pop rofl. No wonder 2000pts games will no longer last as long, you can bring half the units now :'). Even the heavy rail rifle is 60 points doubling the cost of a single broadside. I'm at a loss for words here how the guy that wrote the tau faction focus was so excited..
From the rather complete leaks so far i'd say Blood Angels look terrific (synergized stacking of buffs will RULE this edition, and those character models will make some very scary units, hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, additional attacks, etc...).
Tau look significantly less so. They have really doubled down on their one-dimensional play-style, and other than the terrific Kouyon, once-per-game (or twice with the appropriate character) ability, they have very, very little going on for them.
I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there
I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it
Makes sense I suppose. I can't see the chapter master getting involved in every piddly scrap with a bunch of Orks.
But Roubote Guilliman can?
"My lord, recon reports a small group of Orks aimlessly wandering the sur.."
"GET ME MY POWERFIST!!!"
"But sir, we can send in the fire raptors or Lieutenant Scrub can handle them"
"POWERFIIISSSSTTT!"
portugus wrote: Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.
We saw the Skyhammer/Skyspear stuff from the Space Marine armory--they subtract 1 from their Hit roll against ground targets, add 1 to Hit rolls against "Fly" keyworded units.
Galas wrote: I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there
I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it
I think the salt really comes from lack of tricky plays, or strategies. Even the Tyranid faction focus highlighted one or two EASY ways a horde of assault gribblies can be across the table, and assaulting, turn 1. I don't expect that trick for Tau, obviously, but at a glance (a rather complete one thanks to those leaks), there isn't even a roughly equivalent play that the Tau could make to feel good about their chances.
MoD_Legion wrote: I'm just browsing through the Tau rules but imho this is not looking good. Stealth suits now only get a -1 to hit penalty when you shoot them from over 12".. and ghosts keels a -2 (if the drone still lives). Guess stealth suits go back on the shelve again. Also all our template weapons are now useless, D6 hits? What a terrible joke, the only use they had was against hordes where you'd score and easy 6-8 hits, or deep striking units doing the same, how is an average of 3.5 HITS going to help against waves of ork boys or tyranid, sigh. Markerlights are pretty iffy, if you dont get 5 hits there is no +BS, just a reroll on 1 but I guess they are still required to get relentless as that has been removed from all our battlesuits as well.
Haha and get this, broadsides used to be 65 points, now they are 80 base with no weapons rofl. Yeah great they can get 2 HYMPs now, at 40 points a pop rofl. No wonder 2000pts games will no longer last as long, you can bring half the units now :'). Even the heavy rail rifle is 60 points doubling the cost of a single broadside. I'm at a loss for words here how the guy that wrote the tau faction focus was so excited..
Everything went up in points, Stormravens are closer to 300pts now doesnt mean the balance is off or is bad just means games of the same amount of models will be 2500-3k points instead of 2k.
IMO the Tau -1/-2 is fine for those stealth units, there will be other modifiers here and there too. It may be a slight nerf but looking over all it might be balanced.
portugus wrote: Hoping they let my Astra Militarum hydras shoot at ground targets. 2 twin linked autocannons now giving 8 shots. Also hoping we get our platoon commanders back but we'll see.
We saw the Skyhammer/Skyspear stuff from the Space Marine armory--they subtract 1 from their Hit roll against ground targets, add 1 to Hit rolls against "Fly" keyworded units.
To me it seems like this is a throwback to few editions ago where a Marine or Chaos Marine army could use points efficient shooting units coupled with at least two good assault units in Rhinos, either for counter-assault or getting to the enemy that camps.
And if an army like that actually works, like it used to, instead of 'let's spam formations that give me the most free stuff possible' I'm in awe.
Wow, Tau just got FAST. Target Lock is definitely gonna be my go to support system for all suits. Removing the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons (why yes, I do want mobile Broadsides, thank you), removing the penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons (Crisis Suits moving between 9" and 14" a turn and firing at full BS? Um, all of the yes), and gaining the ability to fire rapid fire weapons after advancing at -1 BS?! Between that, our tanks getting movement 12" and our infantry having 6" or 7", mobile Tau just became godly. A Coldstar Commander (who is finally worth taking!!!!) is moving 40" a turn and still hitting on a 2+. My Tau are very happy with this.
Not to mention Advanced Targetting System. Increasing the AP values of all weapons by 1 (AP 0 becomes -1, AP -1 becomes -2, etc) is just plain good. Nothing more needs to be said, that is just good.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. I think Tau, particularly mobile Tau, are gonna be in a good place in 8th. Yeah if you played gunline Tau you may be a bit SOL here, but the army is in a good place no matter how you look at it.
Galas wrote: I don't see reasons to salt for now, even as a Tau player. Yeah, all of our stuits and miniatures cost more points now... just like basically everything out there
I have seen the Vespids datasheet but it was very blurry, I can't read it
I think the salt really comes from lack of tricky plays, or strategies. Even the Tyranid faction focus highlighted one or two EASY ways a horde of assault gribblies can be across the table, and assaulting, turn 1. I don't expect that trick for Tau, obviously, but at a glance (a rather complete one thanks to those leaks), there isn't even a roughly equivalent play that the Tau could make to feel good about their chances.
Sure that's one thing, but man...Pathfinders are going to be a big role here.
Their Grav-Inhibitor Drones are going to be a must have versus assault armies.
BroodSpawn wrote: Why do you guys think that tournaments are going to go over 2k? They could just go to 1.5 instead. Just because the points adjustment means that everything you take now is more expensive doesn't mean you up the points limit but keep it the same, results in new lists and more interesting decisions at the list building stage that way
Because the detachment that should be seeing the most play is the Battalion Detachment, which requires 2 HQ and 3 Troops. Jumping the price of those units up means that most of the armies will have little room for choice. Which means a Space Marine army is going to be pretty much a carbon copy of another Space Marine army at its core. And that just makes the game boring. More points equals more choice, which means more enjoyable gameplay.
When I first saw the Battalion I thought it looked hard to get. Then I realised you're basically there with the marines from the starter. Just need 1 more squad of Intercessors.
The thing is, I am at nearly 1500 pts with most of the basic units I would run. And then I remembered that I need a third troop, so I am over that even with a 90 pt Camo Cloak Sniper Scout Squad (tm). I can't even come close to my basic army without 2000 pts.
buddha wrote: Complete re-balance of the game means old worries and perspectives are irrelevant until we see them play out. Plus it looks like 2K is the new 1500pts of 7th so the price increases will be commiserate with increased game size.
100% ^ This!
yea looks to me tournaments are gonna be 2000min more like 2500
esp the streamlined rules likely faster games...
although I don't see the game being faster than before (some stuff will be faster while other thing will slow the game down), it would be really sad if GW starts to remove the powercreep and than the community starts doing it by increasing the point level.
In tournaments, players should have room on the table to move and make decisions when building an army (instead of just taking everything).
1850 in 7th with all the free stuff was already too big, no reason to not take the chance with 8th and scale it down to 1250-1500 points per game (and making more games)
I mean there are some very cheap models in the game, with the hard hitters being more expensive
So instead of the minimum amount Fire Warriors and 3 Riptides and a Sturmsurge, we get a lot more FW and just 1-2 Riptides or a Sturmsurge
Of course all those that have 3 Riptides, 9 Ghostkeel and 1 Sturmsurge now want to use all their models in a tournament game, and I have Space Wolves now worth 20k points here, but I still don't want to see all of them on the table outside Apocalypse
but it is always that
I want to run 3 Biker units and 3 units of Jump Marines but that won't fit in 1850, lets play 2000 and the other guy wants to play 2250 because he likes to have one more tank etc
Keep it with 1500 or below and make decisions, and start thinking how you get your army working instead of just put everything inside or copy&paste the generic list
I know people on the internet like to jump to conclusions, but the points increases that Tau are seeing (as are CSM, which has been extensively covered) are not exclusive to them. The increase of points values on many units was necessary to balance them for their utility. CSM saw pretty much the same thing - good units got their points costs increased, bad units got their costs decreased (just look at the Lord of Skulls, losing like 400 points because he was previously worse than hot garbage).
All of this means two things:
1) Your games will be faster to play. This isn't just important for tournament games, though they do benefit. Whereas a game at 1850 could easily have taken 3 or 4 hours, expect that game to be completed in 1.5 -2 hours (roughly of course). So whether you had a great game or a bad game, it'll be faster, letting you play more games and letting you actually get in a full game if you only have 2 hours to play.
2) Your units that previously you took because they were OPOP are still going to be fine. The nerf hammer isn't coming to make it so that your favorite unit isn't good. It's coming to make it so that your friend's favorite unit actually has the ability to not auto-lose to your favorite unit just because it happened to have substantially worse rules.
In summary, If you want to have fun, it sounds like this edition will be tons of fun. If you want to win, focus on tactics and it sounds like you will find victory this edition.
Every edition means change and therefore profits for GW as people adapt to those changes. But the longer you stick with it, the less it costs you when these changes come around because you'll already have most or all of what you want or need.
Kanluwen wrote: Yes, because -1 to be hit from over 12" coupled with the "Infantry" keyword(meaning they can automatically claim area cover) for a +1 bonus to their armor save.
Man. Stealth Suits are traaaaaash.
The point of stealth suits was to dance on the 18" range and use the ghostkeel formation ability to hit vehicles/stuff on the rear or with no cover. They wont be hiding in terrain if they are doing their job, but granted a +2 save in terrain is neat.
Get over it. Everyone is in the same boat for templates.
Fair enough, however it does take away the 1 use we still had for hammerheads, and really the use I personally had for riptides, it just removes options without giving anything back.
Kanluwen wrote: Or you take a Target Lock as Support System...
Which takes up 1 its valuable slots which is hard to read but looks like its just 3 slots to fill with weapons AND support systems, and reduces BS by 1 when you use it.. yeah great option because our to hit is so wonderful as it is.
There are just so many way to get reroll on 1's to hit, what is the use of having 3-4 different way of getting that as it wont stack (most likely). To be fair though I'm prolly missing some things in combination with the new rules but at first glance it looks exactly like I feared. They nerf some key units that get abused (rightly so I guess ) but we don't really get anything back, even the gimmicky things like Ethereals now are useless as it still has the same never used abilities, but the one useful one has been replaced by an ability that you can get from 3 difference sources. But I guess we'll have to wait and see how it goes but as others said we look even more 1 dimensional than before.
Red Corsair wrote: Anyone else notice there is no more generic chapter masters? Oops
They all died in Baal.
I guess they borrowed every other successor chapter masters for help as well
Yes, every single one; 993 nameless Chapter Masters died on Baal, only to be replaced by Primaris Marines. As Dante jet-packed away, he was heard to utter the immortal line "begun, the prime Wars have."
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?
I really like the quality of the packaging. I think is one of the best starters sets GW has ever done. If you discount the 45€ euros for the hardback rulebook, it goes down to 80€, 5€ less than Dark Vengeance, with even more and bigger miniatures.
I know we got a Sisters rumor several pages back, but if any with access could post actual Sisters battlesheets, I will personally burninate several heretics in the Emperors name myself!! ( and be truely thankfull)
Spoletta wrote: So i guess that the tau (sorry, t'au) leaks confirm us that flyers (not simply models with the fly rule) cannot be assaulted without the fly keyword.
Fine by me, the ability for a flying monster to tear chunks out of a plane was all I ever wanted on that front.
Kanluwen wrote: Yes, because -1 to be hit from over 12" coupled with the "Infantry" keyword(meaning they can automatically claim area cover) for a +1 bonus to their armor save.
Man. Stealth Suits are traaaaaash.
The point of stealth suits was to dance on the 18" range and use the ghostkeel formation ability to hit vehicles/stuff on the rear or with no cover. They wont be hiding in terrain if they are doing their job, but granted a +2 save in terrain is neat.
So basically they weren't there to do anything, hrmh?
Get over it. Everyone is in the same boat for templates.
Fair enough, however it does take away the 1 use we still had for hammerheads, and really the use I personally had for riptides, it just removes options without giving anything back.
Again:
EVERYONE had it changed. You'll get over it quick though.
Kanluwen wrote: Or you take a Target Lock as Support System...
Which takes up 1 its valuable slots which is hard to read but looks like its just 3 slots to fill with weapons AND support systems, and reduces BS by 1 when you use it.. yeah great option because our to hit is so wonderful as it is.
Uh no. Read it. It allows you to utilize Rapid Fire weapons when Advancing, but with a -1 To Hit.
It also allows for you to ignore the Move and Fire penalties of Heavy Weapons and the Advance and Fire penalties of Assault weapons.
There are just so many way to get reroll on 1's to hit, what is the use of having 3-4 different way of getting that as it wont stack (most likely). To be fair though I'm prolly missing some things in combination with the new rules but at first glance it looks exactly like I feared. They nerf some key units that get abused (rightly so I guess ) but we don't really get anything back, even the gimmicky things like Ethereals now are useless as it still has the same never used abilities, but the one useful one has been replaced by an ability that you can get from 3 difference sources. But I guess we'll have to wait and see how it goes but as others said we look even more 1 dimensional than before.
You really need to take a step back and actually read through things.
Most of what you're looking at is tied to keywords.
Ethereals, for example, grant some benefits to INFANTRY and BATTLESUITS but not DRONES.
The ability from Markerlights is granted to anything that targets the unit hit by Markerlights.
etc etc.
would love to get some info on custodes and grey knights.
the other stuff really does look good so far. i think its important to look at the datasheets with the upcoming rules in mind. some (myself included) often looking at profiles and thinking "ehh" however with the new rules it might just work.
scatterbikes for example. moving giving them -1 to hit and the new to wound chart also will only wound most infantry on 3+ now. good to see some balance.
Therion wrote: To me it seems like this is a throwback to few editions ago where a Marine or Chaos Marine army could use points efficient shooting units coupled with at least two good assault units in Rhinos, either for counter-assault or getting to the enemy that camps.
And if an army like that actually works, like it used to, instead of 'let's spam formations that give me the most free stuff possible' I'm in awe.
Dude, I'm so far down memory lane right now it's not even funny, not just because of what you posted, but also that it's you posting it. Ahh 40K from a decade ago, how I miss you.
@ some other dudes - You may notice that the stuff that's really climbing in price, quite consistently across all armies, are units that feature concentrated speciial and heavy weapons. It doesn't seem, at least from what we've seen, that anyone is getting unfairly treated in that regard either, it's the new normal. Basic troops more affordable by comparison and I think that this is exactly what GW was looking to accomplish with these rules. I'm very happy.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
It also allows for you to ignore the Move and Fire penalties of Heavy Weapons and the Advance and Fire penalties of Assault weapons.
Most of what you're looking at is tied to keywords.
Ethereals, for example, grant some benefits to INFANTRY and BATTLESUITS but not DRONES.
The ability from Markerlights is granted to anything that targets the unit hit by Markerlights.
etc etc.
Yes which is exactly my point, abilities we already used to have or which already will now be granted through the use of markerlights, why waste precious support slots.
There some points I missed though, broadsides having 6 wounds, crisis suits 3 and they are T5, and the new wounding mechanic means power fist no longer insta kill suits but only wound on a 3+ making the suits more survivable in CC. The sky might not yet actually be falling but it still looks to me like we are losing more options than we are getting back, but then again I haven't really payed attention to the whole main rules so much so it might not turn out so bad . Most of our units also appear to be faster than most standard units which might be a thing.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Not too bad, really would like to know what their mark does and if lucius is actually worth taking.
Deadawake1347 wrote: Has there been any news on whether or not the Jetpack keyword still allows you to jump-shoot-jump?
The leaks didnt show what Jetpack does yet, but I wouldnt count on it, movement values have been upped for most suits though and we get ways of shooting after advancing so you still get a double move (but I dont think after shooting).
It also allows for you to ignore the Move and Fire penalties of Heavy Weapons and the Advance and Fire penalties of Assault weapons.
Most of what you're looking at is tied to keywords.
Ethereals, for example, grant some benefits to INFANTRY and BATTLESUITS but not DRONES.
The ability from Markerlights is granted to anything that targets the unit hit by Markerlights.
etc etc.
Yes which is exactly my point, abilities we already used to have or which already will now be granted through the use of markerlights, why waste precious support slots.
There some points I missed though, broadsides having 6 wounds, crisis suits 3 and they are T5, and the new wounding mechanic means power fist no longer insta kill suits but only wound on a 3+ making the suits more survivable in CC. The sky might not yet actually be falling but it still looks to me like we are losing more options than we are getting back, but then again I haven't really payed attention to the whole main rules so much so it might not turn out so bad . Most of our units also appear to be faster than most standard units which might be a thing.
Maybe you should look at the other leaks before lamenting. EVERY faction that was over powered is dropping down a peg or two while the weaker ones get a boost. Look at the marine leak for Christ sake, all the spammed tier 1 units got MASSIVE price hikes.
Maybe you should look at the other leaks before lamenting. EVERY faction that was over powered is dropping down a peg or two while the weaker ones get a boost. Look at the marine leak for Christ sake, all the spammed tier 1 units got MASSIVE price hikes.
Galas wrote: Unboxing of the Starter Box. In german:
I really like the quality of the packaging. I think is one of the best starters sets GW has ever done. If you discount the 45€ euros for the hardback rulebook, it goes down to 80€, 5€ less than Dark Vengeance, with even more and bigger miniatures.
Mmmmmmm, I can already feel and smell that plastic shrink wrap.
Ok I've seen the majority of str d weapons but we all know everyone wants to know what the DEATH STRIKE Missile launcher does.... it's a darn single shot nuke people.....it was bound to be greatly improved
Deadawake1347 wrote: Has there been any news on whether or not the Jetpack keyword still allows you to jump-shoot-jump?
The leaks didnt show what Jetpack does yet, but I wouldnt count on it, movement values have been upped for most suits though and we get ways of shooting after advancing so you still get a double move (but I dont think after shooting).
That's what I was thinking/fearing. Nearly all of the weapons available to Tau Jetpack units are short range, and the current mechanic allowed them to dance along the edges of charge ranges. If that goes away I don't see them surviving much past that first salvo, even with the extra defensive stats.
A little late I know, but ... I actually really like the redemptor dread's visual design. Yeah it's a little fat, but hte legs make up for that, and I love the design of the heavy flamer hand.
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
It also allows for you to ignore the Move and Fire penalties of Heavy Weapons and the Advance and Fire penalties of Assault weapons.
Most of what you're looking at is tied to keywords.
Ethereals, for example, grant some benefits to INFANTRY and BATTLESUITS but not DRONES.
The ability from Markerlights is granted to anything that targets the unit hit by Markerlights.
etc etc.
Yes which is exactly my point, abilities we already used to have or which already will now be granted through the use of markerlights, why waste precious support slots.
Because those abilities are granted through Markerlights hitting a specific target.
There some points I missed though, broadsides having 6 wounds, crisis suits 3 and they are T5, and the new wounding mechanic means power fist no longer insta kill suits but only wound on a 3+ making the suits more survivable in CC. The sky might not yet actually be falling but it still looks to me like we are losing more options than we are getting back, but then again I haven't really payed attention to the whole main rules so much so it might not turn out so bad . Most of our units also appear to be faster than most standard units which might be a thing.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Not too bad, really would like to know what their mark does and if lucius is actually worth taking.
I am slightly sad that the Doomsiren is Assault D6 like the other former template weapons. But if the points aren't terrible and the Chaos Lord can take it again is fine. I'll be happy to just use my Sonic Blasters again.
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
3000 points of ork boyz? Hope the deployment zone is big enough.
Kanluwen wrote: That's not what you said before though...you basically said that Stealth Suits were just there to take the Ghostkeel's benefits.
No I said they use the ghostkeel benefits to JSJ at around 18" shooting stuff, which they now wont be able to do due not have a 2+ cover save nor the ability to hits stuff in the rear.
Kanluwen wrote: Because those abilities are granted through Markerlights hitting a specific target.
Yes, targets which will be getting markerlight hits anyways because thats why you are shooting at them. Quite rarely you shoot at stuff as Tau that does not have markerlights on it, unless its a rare occasion that the unit by itself was decent enough not to need it, which they now took away by default, but I'll concede the point that situationally the abilities can be useful, but I still wonder if the costs are worth it.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Thank you I really appreciate the reply, they look pretty good sonic blasters have improved allot, especially now cover is a modifier, i love the ability to attack even if killed, is it like the current wulfen rules where they get to attack again even if they already fought ?
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Not too bad, really would like to know what their mark does and if lucius is actually worth taking.
I am slightly sad that the Doomsiren is Assault D6 like the other former template weapons. But if the points aren't terrible and the Chaos Lord can take it again is fine. I'll be happy to just use my Sonic Blasters again.
It is weird that the doom siren is only d3 and not d6 like other template weapons, but I suppose it is a sacrifice worth making in exchange for actual good sonic blasters.
Are Noise/slaanesh marines +1 movement over other marines ?
Death guard appear to get a unique(?) psychic discipline that they can (must?) generate psychic powers from. They can take plague marines in troops instead of elites, and maybe something else but the only leaked version of that page cut off that section, presumably because it lacked much in the way of rules.
Similarly, the blood angels leak had little in the way of chapter tactics. A few units gained the option of taking jump packs where they previously could not, they gained access to inferno pistols and hand/heavy flamers, and a unique psychic discipline which blood angels must generate from.
Basically, it looks like (at least until individual codex releases) we lost legion/chapter tactics for the most part. The trade off is most HQs have a benefit they grant, so you can get your bonuses there instead.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Sounds good, maybe Tau aren't the pack up and go home army if you're facing them
Which to gamgee means he's fethed.
Break out the tiny violins lads. There's bitter tears about to be shed...
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
gigasnail wrote: matched play carrying over the psychic power rule of 1. so much for being able to have reliable access to catalyst.
I've read it over about three times and I'm just hoping that it's something that tournaments ignore....or that the points costs for psykers is much lower than it was. Picking the power is great. Everyone being able to cast is great. It appears that having more than 3 psykers in any army is not great.
I'm fine with the point increases as well, and am really hoping it's balanced. However from looking things over my concern is that they may have killed the fun, highly mobile Tau by removing the Jetpack movement. If they did you basically sacrifice any shorter range units to a charge.
I would absolutely hate to be forced into a static gunline army consisting of only the long range units.
I don't understand the Tau complaints. Things got generally better and cost more points. Isn't that a good thing for Tau? I mean, look at crisis suits, they're crazy now - T5 W3 3+, can fire 3 weapons at 3 targets by default, can leave combat with no penalty whatsoever... of course they're more points, they're substantially more powerful. Plus, this is the world of 27 point multimeltas - everything got more expensive in points, even assault terminators after you cost in weapons. Way too early to say what's good or bad.
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
The movement rules mentions flyers, but not the 90 degrees turn thing of 7th, so the speculation goes that flyers can now pivot as normal models, as-well as being assaulted.
Man, 40" move on the coldstar...brutal
Here's hoping for a couple cheeky Tyranid leaks.
This is what I have compiled so far.
From this thread:
Spoiler:
Tyranids:
Termagaunts cost a bit less than a melta bomb (melta is 5)
Tervigon M8" W14 S7 T8 Save3+, can either create a 10
fleshborer Termagaunt unit (you need to keep the points for them)
OR re-add fleshborer Termagaunt models to an existing unit
>Carnifex
>67 points
>M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+
>It doesn't degrade
>if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
>Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3
>Monstrous Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3
>Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
>If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
>2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.
Haruspex
S7 (degrades) T8 W13
If it kills a model it can do an extra attack and heal 1 wound.
Every wound he takes does a mortal wound on the enemy on a 6 (I suppose it's acid blood)
If killed roll a dice, on a 6 it does 3 mortal wound on an enemy unit within 3"
Digging claws Sx2 AP-3 damage d6
Venomthrope
-1 to be hit for infantry.
Lictor
WS2+ S6 W4 A3 5+
+2 armour save in cover,
-1 to be hit
can infiltrate at 9" and can reroll charge the turn it shows up
Had a guy in a fb group who had read the index answering some questions before, this is what I got from him (english was sort of poor so not everything was very clear) :
Spoiler:
-------
Gargoyles move 12
Shrikes move 10
Broodlord HQ Mucolid spore FA Genestealers 12 points
Naked tyrant is 143 points
Naked Tervigon is 217
Devourers with Brainleech are 18" S6 Assualt 3
Boneswords AP -2 +1 attack if you've got a pair
Powers:
1. Catalyst basically 5+ FnP 2. -1 to hit and LD on enemy unit
3. Move and fire heavy/advance and fire with assualt with no modifiers, advance and still charge
Mawloc deploy more than 1" from enemy,roll D6 for all enemies within 6, 1 nothing, 2-3 1mortal wound, 4-5 D3 mortal wounds, 6 6 mortal wounds
Shadow in the warp psykers within 8 get -1 LD, within 12 of HT/Swarmlord
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
The movement rules mentions flyers, but not the 90 degrees turn thing of 7th, so the speculation goes that flyers can now move as normal models, as-well as being assaulted.
The latter speculation is true. Flyers can be assaulted, but only by models with the fly special rule. Go go gadget Tau crisis suits assaulting a heldrake! I'm sure it'll work out great for you!
Will be interesting to see how this interacts with FMC assaulting each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shadows in the warp LD debuff (while slightly lackluster) could be a big deal with the new morale system.
*glances over the SM melee weapon list*
Sigh, what's the point of having dedicated profiles for melee weapons if they're just going to be so uninspiring?
Has there been any information regarding the Powers of the C'tan? A friend of mine sent me a screengrab which indicated they each had "one," which I assume to be from a list?
The Transcendant C'tan was not in the screenshot, either. Returning to weird GMC status, or leaving us as a usable model individual from the TVault kit?
The latter speculation is true. Flyers can be assaulted, but only by models with the fly special rule. Go go gadget Tau crisis suits assaulting a heldrake! I'm sure it'll work out great for you!
Will be interesting to see how this interacts with FMC assaulting each other.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The shadows in the warp LD debuff (while slightly lackluster) could be a big deal with the new morale system.
What, really? Then the Crisis Suits can't be assaulted at all more or less? Then the whole cool fallback-and-shoot dosen't make much sense, since they aren't threatened by 90% of models anyway.
I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NamelessBard wrote: Do people not realize that everything is getting rebalanced points cost wise?
Calling something dead or overpowered is extremely short sighted.
You seem to be new here. People around these parts, have drawn such conclusions on much less information before.
Darkseid wrote: I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NamelessBard wrote: Do people not realize that everything is getting rebalanced points cost wise?
Calling something dead or overpowered is extremely short sighted.
You seem to be new here. People around these parts, have drawn such conclusions on much less information before.
I think the differences seem to be for vehicle mounted plasma. As losing a Leman Russ to a single roll of a 1 would be a tad unfair.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Not too bad, really would like to know what their mark does and if lucius is actually worth taking.
I am slightly sad that the Doomsiren is Assault D6 like the other former template weapons. But if the points aren't terrible and the Chaos Lord can take it again is fine. I'll be happy to just use my Sonic Blasters again.
It is weird that the doom siren is only d3 and not d6 like other template weapons, but I suppose it is a sacrifice worth making in exchange for actual good sonic blasters.
Are Noise/slaanesh marines +1 movement over other marines ?
Nothing besides the weapons and the one rule have been leaked yet...sadly. The other three gods got their icons released, but not Slaanesh. Pretty much nothing for Daemons either. Although, I was able to make out the 3 Slaaneshi daemon power names: Cacophonic Choir, Symphony of Pain, and Hysterical Frenzy. Which is odd because those were CSM Slaaneshi power's; so who know what they do now.
Cephalobeard wrote: I have tons of Tau. Their points feel correct now. Tears are delicious.
Broadsides were decent, but so OP that they needed a 3.5x points increase? Don't think so .
Did you miss the part where they're T5 6W, have double the amount of shots (Seriously... a missileside puts out 16 shots not counting drones), and are now mobile (with just -1BS, or Target Locks)?
Kanluwen wrote: That's not what you said before though...you basically said that Stealth Suits were just there to take the Ghostkeel's benefits.
No I said they use the ghostkeel benefits to JSJ at around 18" shooting stuff, which they now wont be able to do due not have a 2+ cover save nor the ability to hits stuff in the rear.
Well personally as an Imperial Guard player I'm extremely worried about only being able to hit stealth suits on 5s and ghostkeels on 6s, with what amounts to a pretty good save still while in cover. Remember blast isn't a thing anymore, my Basilisks, which used to be able to be ordered to ignore cover, would wipe out a squad of stealth suits with every direct hit, now I'm going to have to roll d6 shots, and even then I'll be hitting on 5s/6s? That's like what, one hit if I'm lucky, which still has to wound and they still get a save? I'm a bit worried that guard are going to be stuck in the basement tier again, but willing to wait for the book/leaks to see for sure.
Either way those stealth suits are still super resilient.
Also does anyone know if the tau codex has been reposted? It's taken down now and I can't find it elsewhere.
EDIT: Wait, I just found them...MoD_Legion, you understand stealth suits now have a 2+ armor save while in cover right? Right? You get that right?
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
The movement rules mentions flyers, but not the 90 degrees turn thing of 7th, so the speculation goes that flyers can now pivot as normal models, as-well as being assaulted.
I referenced the sun shark rules because the sun shark specifically mentions a 90 degree pivot then needing to move 20 inches straight forwards.
That is gonna be insanely tricky to keep from just zooming off the board and dying.
Rydria wrote: Has any slaanesh related things been spoiled yet like daemons, noise marines ?
- Noise Marines
- If killed in melee don't remove them, and at the end of the phase they can attack with melee or shooting weapons (even if engaged) before removing them.
-
- Blastmaster 48" Heavyd3 S8 Ap-2 damage d3 ignore cover
- Or Assault d6 S4 Ap-1 damage 1
- Doomsiren assault d3 S5 Ap-2 damage 1 ignore cover
- Other sonic weapon Assault3 24" S4 ignore cover.
Not too bad, really would like to know what their mark does and if lucius is actually worth taking.
I am slightly sad that the Doomsiren is Assault D6 like the other former template weapons. But if the points aren't terrible and the Chaos Lord can take it again is fine. I'll be happy to just use my Sonic Blasters again.
It is weird that the doom siren is only d3 and not d6 like other template weapons, but I suppose it is a sacrifice worth making in exchange for actual good sonic blasters.
Are Noise/slaanesh marines +1 movement over other marines ?
Nothing besides the weapons and the one rule have been leaked yet...sadly. The other three gods got their icons released, but not Slaanesh. Pretty much nothing for Daemons either. Although, I was able to make out the 3 Slaaneshi daemon power names: Cacophonic Choir, Symphony of Pain, and Hysterical Frenzy. Which is odd because those were CSM Slaaneshi power's; so who know what they do now.
That kind of sucks, that they didn't reveal the slaanesh icon as well. perhaps there is just 1 psychic discipline for each god now across daemons and chaos marines ?
Aside from the rumors page linked, there hasn't been any new info on Sisters that I've seen? Disappointing, but expected I guess. Looks like a bit of a mixed bag for them.
Darkseid wrote: I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
Odds are the (Twin) Heavy Plasma Cannon is a vehicle only weapon. Removing a vehicle outright on a 1 would be a bit extreme...
All the ones that say "after resolving all attacks" are only for plasma weapons with multiple shots, because the other shot(s) may have hit. Single shot weapons don't need that stipulation because they only have one shot.
I'm kinda surprised there are no real Chaos Daemon leaks yet. I would think someone would at least be curious about what the Greater Daemons can do now.
Sersi wrote: I'm kinda surprised there are no real Chaos Daemon leaks yet. I would think someone would at least be curious about what the Greater Daemons can do now.
I'm very, very curious. I just built 30 screamers and am very concerned about them, also just made a Be'Lakor and was concerned he wasn't listed on the GW website as a character in 40k anymore.
Melissia wrote: Aside from the rumors page linked, there hasn't been any new info on Sisters that I've seen? Disappointing, but expected I guess. Looks like a bit of a mixed bag for them.
Im hoping the repentia rumors arent true, as I just happened to get a bunch off ebay for cheap. The penitent engine stuff doesn't look too bad though
Fluxxxx wrote: Man, 40" move on the coldstar...brutal
Here's hoping for a couple cheeky Tyranid leaks.
This is what I have compiled so far.
From this thread:
Spoiler:
Tyranids:
Termagaunts cost a bit less than a melta bomb (melta is 5)
Tervigon M8" W14 S7 T8 Save3+, can either create a 10
fleshborer Termagaunt unit (you need to keep the points for them)
OR re-add fleshborer Termagaunt models to an existing unit
>Carnifex
>67 points
>M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+
>It doesn't degrade
>if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
>Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3
>Monstrous Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3
>Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
>If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
>2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.
Haruspex
S7 (degrades) T8 W13
If it kills a model it can do an extra attack and heal 1 wound.
Every wound he takes does a mortal wound on the enemy on a 6 (I suppose it's acid blood)
If killed roll a dice, on a 6 it does 3 mortal wound on an enemy unit within 3"
Digging claws Sx2 AP-3 damage d6
Venomthrope
-1 to be hit for infantry.
Lictor
WS2+ S6 W4 A3 5+
+2 armour save in cover,
-1 to be hit
can infiltrate at 9" and can reroll charge the turn it shows up
Had a guy in a fb group who had read the index answering some questions before, this is what I got from him (english was sort of poor so not everything was very clear) :
Spoiler:
-------
Gargoyles move 12
Shrikes move 10
Broodlord HQ Mucolid spore FA Genestealers 12 points
Naked tyrant is 143 points
Naked Tervigon is 217
Devourers with Brainleech are 18" S6 Assualt 3
Boneswords AP -2 +1 attack if you've got a pair
Powers:
1. Catalyst basically 5+ FnP 2. -1 to hit and LD on enemy unit
3. Move and fire heavy/advance and fire with assualt with no modifiers, advance and still charge
Mawloc deploy more than 1" from enemy,roll D6 for all enemies within 6, 1 nothing, 2-3 1mortal wound, 4-5 D3 mortal wounds, 6 6 mortal wounds
Shadow in the warp psykers within 8 get -1 LD, within 12 of HT/Swarmlord
What's the source on the Carnifex stats? That sounds AMAZING.
gigasnail wrote: matched play carrying over the psychic power rule of 1. so much for being able to have reliable access to catalyst.
I've read it over about three times and I'm just hoping that it's something that tournaments ignore....or that the points costs for psykers is much lower than it was. Picking the power is great. Everyone being able to cast is great. It appears that having more than 3 psykers in any army is not great.
If I were to guess armies that tend to be psyker heavy will have ways to keep the Rule of One from crippling them. The Tzeentch book from AoS has a lot of extra spells to help keep Tzeentch wizards from running out of different spells to cast. I would guess that in 40k armies that tend to use a lot of psykers will either get loads of spells to pick from and/or certain exceptions to the Rule of One.
Melissia wrote: Aside from the rumors page linked, there hasn't been any new info on Sisters that I've seen? Disappointing, but expected I guess. Looks like a bit of a mixed bag for them.
Im hoping the repentia rumors arent true, as I just happened to get a bunch off ebay for cheap. The penitent engine stuff doesn't look too bad though
Yeah, so am I. Nerfing their offense is kinda lame. Offense was literally all they had going for them!
Fluxxxx wrote: Man, 40" move on the coldstar...brutal
Here's hoping for a couple cheeky Tyranid leaks.
This is what I have compiled so far.
From this thread:
Spoiler:
Tyranids:
Termagaunts cost a bit less than a melta bomb (melta is 5)
Tervigon M8" W14 S7 T8 Save3+, can either create a 10
fleshborer Termagaunt unit (you need to keep the points for them)
OR re-add fleshborer Termagaunt models to an existing unit
>Carnifex
>67 points
>M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+
>It doesn't degrade
>if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
>Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3
>Monstrous Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3
>Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
>If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
>2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.
Haruspex
S7 (degrades) T8 W13
If it kills a model it can do an extra attack and heal 1 wound.
Every wound he takes does a mortal wound on the enemy on a 6 (I suppose it's acid blood)
If killed roll a dice, on a 6 it does 3 mortal wound on an enemy unit within 3"
Digging claws Sx2 AP-3 damage d6
Venomthrope
-1 to be hit for infantry.
Lictor
WS2+ S6 W4 A3 5+
+2 armour save in cover,
-1 to be hit
can infiltrate at 9" and can reroll charge the turn it shows up
Had a guy in a fb group who had read the index answering some questions before, this is what I got from him (english was sort of poor so not everything was very clear) :
Spoiler:
-------
Gargoyles move 12
Shrikes move 10
Broodlord HQ Mucolid spore FA Genestealers 12 points
Naked tyrant is 143 points
Naked Tervigon is 217
Devourers with Brainleech are 18" S6 Assualt 3
Boneswords AP -2 +1 attack if you've got a pair
Powers:
1. Catalyst basically 5+ FnP 2. -1 to hit and LD on enemy unit
3. Move and fire heavy/advance and fire with assualt with no modifiers, advance and still charge
Mawloc deploy more than 1" from enemy,roll D6 for all enemies within 6, 1 nothing, 2-3 1mortal wound, 4-5 D3 mortal wounds, 6 6 mortal wounds
Shadow in the warp psykers within 8 get -1 LD, within 12 of HT/Swarmlord
What's the source on the Carnifex stats? That sounds AMAZING.
Some dude translated it from an Italian source IIRC.
All I know is....I'll be making a LOT of 9" charge rolls, hopefully with fleet. Mawlocs seem just as good as before, lictors are as they should be now, and carnifexes sound positively terrifying. How many can I fit in a tyrannocyte again? I also wonder if genestealers will need to make use of the Trygon tunnel or if they still have infiltrate, which it appears functions in an identical way to deep strike.
Also loving the idea of GSC allies right now. Brood lord brings extra psychic fun and genestealers
Sersi wrote: I'm kinda surprised there are no real Chaos Daemon leaks yet. I would think someone would at least be curious about what the Greater Daemons can do now.
I'm very, very curious. I just built 30 screamers and am very concerned about them, also just made a Be'Lakor and was concerned he wasn't listed on the GW website as a character in 40k anymore.
Here's hoping we get more.
Honestly, I'm a little worried. The last time we got rules it change the entire character of the army. On the upside going by the CSM Daemon Prince we'll get a 15 pt price break on a winged one. I'll be a shame if Blood crushers don't have a "crushing charge" rule like the Primaris Interceptors. Our elites and fast attack need the most boosting.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: ss armies that tend to be psyker heavy will have ways to keep the Rule of One from crippling them. The Tzeentch book from AoS has a lot of extra spells to help keep Tzeentch wizards from running out of different spells to cast. I would guess that in 40k armies that tend to use a lot of psykers will either get loads of spells to pick from and/or certain exceptions to the Rule of One.
This may in fact be why we've not seen Daemons, Eldar or 'Nids properly yet, them being the 3 heaviest Psyker factions (I don't count Grey Knights as I expect they'll work the same way as 1k Sons)
I think what people aren't realizing with the Tau stuff is that the increased point cost is generally due to increased durability, which actually doesn't kill the mobile suit game style but increases the back-and-forth of playing with and against it.
Now, youll be able to get to and charge a unit of crisis suits, but with T5 W3 and a 3+ save that still gets a 5+ vs previously AP3 weapons, you're not going to kill them nearly as easily. Morale is also way less punishing for the multiwound units - 5 crisis suits that took just one casualty had almost a 50% chance to get instagibbed in 7th, now you need to take 2 or more to even start to worry about morale.
What this means is that there's going to be a lot more back and forth, getting charged surviving and falling back to shoot again with the heavier suits. Broadsides you will need to protect but their durability has tripled and you can plop them in cover for a 1+ save. It seems to me "Skirmish/shortrange tau" "Glass cannon gunline tau" and "Durable IG style gunline tau" are all viable options now...which is sweet.
Also with the flyers remember they removed the #1 thing making flyers unusable/ignorable in 7th: Unless I missed it, there are no more firing arcs for weapons.
the_scotsman wrote: I think what people aren't realizing with the Tau stuff is that the increased point cost is generally due to increased durability, which actually doesn't kill the mobile suit game style but increases the back-and-forth of playing with and against it.
Now, youll be able to get to and charge a unit of crisis suits, but with T5 W3 and a 3+ save that still gets a 5+ vs previously AP3 weapons, you're not going to kill them nearly as easily. Morale is also way less punishing for the multiwound units - 5 crisis suits that took just one casualty had almost a 50% chance to get instagibbed in 7th, now you need to take 2 or more to even start to worry about morale.
What this means is that there's going to be a lot more back and forth, getting charged surviving and falling back to shoot again with the heavier suits. Broadsides you will need to protect but their durability has tripled and you can plop them in cover for a 1+ save. It seems to me "Skirmish/shortrange tau" "Glass cannon gunline tau" and "Durable IG style gunline tau" are all viable options now...which is sweet.
Also with the flyers remember they removed the #1 thing making flyers unusable/ignorable in 7th: Unless I missed it, there are no more firing arcs for weapons.
Well, bear in mind that multi-wound weaponry partially mitigates that.
I feel like their statement that games are shorter now has a lot to do with armies in general being smaller now for the same points value, which is technically true bus also kinda cheating.
The new rules might be less convoluted than 7th ended up being, but they seem at a much more convoluted starting point than the 3rd-7th framework ever was.
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
Darkseid wrote: I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
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NamelessBard wrote: Do people not realize that everything is getting rebalanced points cost wise?
Calling something dead or overpowered is extremely short sighted.
You seem to be new here. People around these parts, have drawn such conclusions on much less information before.
I think the differences seem to be for vehicle mounted plasma. As losing a Leman Russ to a single roll of a 1 would be a tad unfair.
The mortal wounds are for vehicle plasma. However, you can bloody lose Mephiston with a to hit of 1... You aren't ever overcharging that pistol. I think a fairer option would be to cause a mortal wound and no longer be able to fire the weapon for the game for infantry models. It's a bit weird that you can lose a primaris marine on a 1 and a normal 1W marine, and undoubtably a single guardsmen once the rules are out. Or as in the case above, a special named character.
JohnU wrote: 64 points lets you add 8 wounds with a +4 invulnerable to any (and multiple) T'au unit. Thats... kinda good.
Eeeeeeeeeeeeeh I still don't see shield drones being very useful. Marker or gun both actually do something other than be a floating pie plate whilst waiting to be ablative wounds.
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
As someone pointed out earlier, people have modelled combat knives and chainswords on tactical marines for pretty much the same purpose. To then buff chainswords whilst not doing something similar to combat knives would be an unfair boost to people with the same models but who had added slightly different components for personal tastes.
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
As someone pointed out earlier, people have modelled combat knives and chainswords on tactical marines for pretty much the same purpose. To then buff chainswords whilst not doing something similar to combat knives would be an unfair boost to people with the same models but who had added slightly different components for personal tastes.
Where are you seeing that combat knives grant an extra attack?
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
As someone pointed out earlier, people have modelled combat knives and chainswords on tactical marines for pretty much the same purpose. To then buff chainswords whilst not doing something similar to combat knives would be an unfair boost to people with the same models but who had added slightly different components for personal tastes.
I don't buy that excuse. Sergeants got chainswords, tac marines got combat knifes in the rules. Whilst chainswords were just CCW's they were still differentiated in the models equipment stat line. I'm thinking more in line of assault marines anyway, they could have warranted a boost in combat over tac marines other than getting the +1 A for a pistol and chainsword.
I just played two games of 8th with the leaked core rules, Only War mission, and starter box dataslates. Then the second mission we each added a Knight. Both were very fun and very close: the second came down to one 4+ armor save!
everything is so much simpler except close combat positioning, which is probably simpler than 7th but still complicated.
I hope we get a FAQ day 1 for some edge cases. like, can't shoot at character unless it's the closest visible target. But maybe they intended to say closest eligable target. one visible unit in close combat prevented me from shooting at a character who was the closest eligable target.
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
Darkseid wrote: I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
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NamelessBard wrote: Do people not realize that everything is getting rebalanced points cost wise?
Calling something dead or overpowered is extremely short sighted.
You seem to be new here. People around these parts, have drawn such conclusions on much less information before.
I think the differences seem to be for vehicle mounted plasma. As losing a Leman Russ to a single roll of a 1 would be a tad unfair.
The mortal wounds are for vehicle plasma. However, you can bloody lose Mephiston with a to hit of 1... You aren't ever overcharging that pistol. I think a fairer option would be to cause a mortal wound and no longer be able to fire the weapon for the game for infantry models. It's a bit weird that you can lose a primaris marine on a 1 and a normal 1W marine, and undoubtably a single guardsmen once the rules are out. Or as in the case above, a special named character.
Looking at all the units We've seen so far, I don't see Combat knives on anyone's profile. Granted none of them are tactical marines, but the Combat Knife may be just something Scouts have now, with the knives marines have being the default "Close Combat Weapon' we've seen in the assault rules.
Firstly a storm bolter is EXACTLY the same as a twin linked bolter? Where's the flavour in that?
Also, why were they bigging up chainswords giving an extra attack if bloody combat knives on tacticals do exactly the same thing? Chainswords should have got -1 ap, it's a bit stupid that they didn't in my opinion.
Darkseid wrote: I'm very surprised by the inconsistencies of the plasma weapons: Some cause a mortal wound, some slay the bearer outright. Some resolve hits before the bearer dies, some don't. I wonder if this is the final, proofread version.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NamelessBard wrote: Do people not realize that everything is getting rebalanced points cost wise?
Calling something dead or overpowered is extremely short sighted.
You seem to be new here. People around these parts, have drawn such conclusions on much less information before.
I think the differences seem to be for vehicle mounted plasma. As losing a Leman Russ to a single roll of a 1 would be a tad unfair.
The mortal wounds are for vehicle plasma. However, you can bloody lose Mephiston with a to hit of 1... You aren't ever overcharging that pistol. I think a fairer option would be to cause a mortal wound and no longer be able to fire the weapon for the game for infantry models. It's a bit weird that you can lose a primaris marine on a 1 and a normal 1W marine, and undoubtably a single guardsmen once the rules are out. Or as in the case above, a special named character.
Looking at all the units We've seen so far, I don't see Combat knives on anyone's profile. Granted none of them are tactical marines, but the Combat Knife may be just something Scouts have now, with the knives marines have being the default "Close Combat Weapon' we've seen in the assault rules.
You may be right about that, I hadn't considered scouts.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
One of the special command tanks they rolled out a while ago. Had a grav cannon in place of the heavy bolter and projected a weak invulnerable save field around it.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
This all sounds glorious to me, I've always disliked tau since they turned up in 3rd or 4th
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
.772% chance of hitting without markerlight. synergy is taus whole thing.
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
hang on i think i missed the marker light rules.
i know 1 gives you rerolls of 1. did the rest get leaked?
One of the special command tanks they rolled out a while ago. Had a grav cannon in place of the heavy bolter and projected a weak invulnerable save field around it.
Combat Knives are for the Space Marine scouts. Power Knives are the ones Tacticals wear, so they don't have a +1 attack if they don't have Chainswords. (I think. I can be wrong)
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
.772% chance of hitting without markerlight. synergy is taus whole thing.
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
hang on i think i missed the marker light rules.
i know 1 gives you rerolls of 1. did the rest get leaked?
2 is Destroyer/Seeker missiles fire at users BS.
3 is no penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons or advancing and shooting assault weapons.
4 is no cover bonus
5 is +1 to hit
Desubot wrote: storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
In all honesty. There are three ways this could have gone.
Option 1: The least fluffy way, was to just make storm bolters in to a completely new weapon with completely different stats. This would improve them, but wouldn't jive with 30 years for fluff.
Option 2: Storm bolter becomes a linked bolter, the things wielded by non-terminators and infantry units become combi-bolters (i.e. Rapid Fire 2, but -1 to hit). This would have jived with 2nd Edition's use of them, but everyone that wasn't an Imperial terminator would cry murder at the thought of firing their weapon at a negative (even if at -1 to-hit the thing is still better than the original storm bolter).
Option 3: Stop pretending there is a difference between two linked bolters (bikes), storm bolters, and combi-bolters.
Part of me would have preferred option 1, but I think option 2 is the most logical without causing tactical terminators to spend too many points on shooting and assault. They're still generalists, but not overpaying for shooting while becoming quite a bit better in the CQB environment they're supposed to thrive in. A storm bolter is just a fancy name for a double bolter, and a lot of armies have other versions of the exact same weapon concept. We didn't need 2-3 different sets of rules for two bolters firing at the same time while being close together.
Making them all RF2 was the most elegant solution that also upgunned tactical terminators to a level that wasn't laughable. Deep striking tactical terminators will actually be able to send out a wall of bolts now, possibly acting like the ace-in-the-hole linebreakers they were meant to be.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
.772% chance of hitting without markerlight. synergy is taus whole thing.
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
hang on i think i missed the marker light rules.
i know 1 gives you rerolls of 1. did the rest get leaked?
Sure did...
1 marker rerolls 1s to hit
2 markers - a destroyer/seeker fires at the firers BS 3 markers - no penalty for heavy/rapid fire weapons when moving/advancing
4 markers - remove the bonuses for cover
5 markers - +1 to to hit rolls
RedFox wrote: Question: so do you actually have to separately purchase all wargears ?
Like the furioso dreadnought have to buy his two fists?
Yes. Except for named characters, who have their wargear included in their point costs.
It also seems like things that don't exist as upgrades are pointed into the unit (so they cost 0pts). It's sort of all over the map really. Hopefully the app will make this all trivial to calculate.
For example, a landraider is actually 350ish points.
239 for the base, then 100 for the two lascannon sponsons, then another 15ish for the heavy bolters (too lazy to look up actual costs).
markerlights now have a new ruleset that stacks up depending on how many markerlights are on the target. also all units firing on the target get the bonuses. no longer is it "charge" system like before:
1: reroll to hit rolls of 1 for every tau empire unit shooting on the target
2: destroyer and seeker missles fired at the target hit on the users normal BS instead of only on a 6.
3: Tau Empire units do not suffer the -1 to hit penality for firing heavy weapons if they moved, assault weapons also do not get the -1 to hit modifier when they advanced.
4: the target unit does not gain any bonuses to their save roll for being in cover.
5: add +1 to hit rolls for tau empire models.
as mentioned before, those bonuses stack and last until the end of the phase.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
.772% chance of hitting without markerlight. synergy is taus whole thing.
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
hang on i think i missed the marker light rules.
i know 1 gives you rerolls of 1. did the rest get leaked?
Spoiler:
The effects are CUMMULATIVE:
1: Reroll failed rolls of 1 for Tau empire models attacking this unit.
2: destroyer and seeker missiles use models BS when firing instead of 6's? (pic is a little fuzzy on this one)
3: No penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons or advancing and firing assault weapons when shooting at this unit.
4: The target unit does not get bonus from cover.
5: Add 1 to hit rolls for T'au empire models attacking this unit.
I actually like that they have the cost of all these models with no wargear instead of building the cost of their default wargear into the unit. It allows them to cost things much more appropriately instead of "cost of this weapon minus the cost of the weapons you lose by upgrading to it" which naturally varied wildly from unit to unit
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Loopstah wrote: Anyone who's seen the nid lists know if spike rifles or stranglewebs are in?
I'm waiting for Nid leaks too...by Friday at the latest I'll know everything
In old codex's they have at least, can't remember if they state it in 7th edition rule book.
No they don't, they never had.
Back in RT every basic marine had a knife or combat accessory. Looks like that was dropped as part of the stock gear in 2nd. But they were issued to the troops at one point.
Looks like the space marine list only has access to the primaris models/units we've already seen, minus the redemptor dread.
I was hoping for some more surprises; maybe a name for the possibly new vehicle from in the background of that picture from the other day, or primaris terminators, or even a primaris chapter master.
There's got to be a "true" primaris list coming down the pipe soon.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
gungo wrote: Considering Frankie was one of the top tau players in the country and playtested the new faction a lot. I'd say they are probably balanced.
Which was offset by reece and co being people who were very obvious about hating tau and wishing they never existed, and now it seems they got their way.
Seriously the pts are only part of the issue a lot of the Tau stuff shows the problem that even the previously lackluster stuff has been nerfed into the ground and that most weapons in general are poorer.
As for the "Buffs" yay a coldstar can fly 40" but wtf is it going to do when it gets there with 8 str 6 -1 rend shots.
"The Storm surge can fire 10 weapons" that includes 4 "Destroyer" missiles that have an impressive 0.772% chance of all hitting, a main gun that requires being almost in charge range to get the most out of.
.772% chance of hitting without markerlight. synergy is taus whole thing.
storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
hang on i think i missed the marker light rules.
i know 1 gives you rerolls of 1. did the rest get leaked?
2 is Destroyer/Seeker missiles fire at users BS.
3 is no penalty to moving and shooting heavy weapons or advancing and shooting assault weapons.
4 is no cover bonus
5 is +1 to hit
woof cumulative bonuses but cant get any better than +1 to hit with rerolls of 1
double woof, support systems makes some of the abilities redundant.
luke1705 wrote: I actually like that they have the cost of all these models with no wargear instead of building the cost of their default wargear into the unit. It allows them to cost things much more appropriately instead of "cost of this weapon minus the cost of the weapons you lose by upgrading to it" which naturally varied wildly from unit to unit
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Loopstah wrote: Anyone who's seen the nid lists know if spike rifles or stranglewebs are in?
I'm waiting for Nid leaks too...by Friday at the latest I'll know everything
I'll be keeping an ear out for you come Friday!! Keen as to see what the nids have in store.
Weird that the Chaos leak pictures showed a "Renegade Knight" page, but there wasn't an entry for it anywhere on the points cost page. I suppose there might be another page with LOW entries on it, given some of the Chaos daemon engines and named Greater Daemons available.
Elensar777 wrote: It is interesting to note that the primaris stuff doesn't cost the same in the space marine index and in the primaris codex of the starter box.
I wonder if there won't be a "primaris only" codex that takes the limited choice of troops into account.
Seems to be indicating they'll be getting their own codex soon after release with their vehicles, dreads, and perhaps characters within it.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.
luke1705 wrote: I actually like that they have the cost of all these models with no wargear instead of building the cost of their default wargear into the unit. It allows them to cost things much more appropriately instead of "cost of this weapon minus the cost of the weapons you lose by upgrading to it" which naturally varied wildly from unit to unit
You know that it's totally possible for them to have an internal point list and calculate the points per model without forcing us to do it for models that only have a single option? It's pretty dumb if 4 terminators can only have a powerfist/storm bolter that we have to then equip them with such.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
Yeah, I figured the Rhino was the one that already exists as a command tank. As for the Lord of War option, I agree it *could* be the Redemptor, I doubt it for a couple of reasons:
1) You can see that its entry starts with "Termi..."
2) It costs a flat number of points. Since we've seen a couple of different weapon loadouts for the Redemptor already, my guess would be it's entry would just be for the chassis and would not include wargear, as per entries for other dreads etc..
I'm guessing the primaris entries in that list are just for models that will be available at release and just a placeholder before the primaris list is expanded (greatly expanded, I hope!) and revamped with its own codex.
Edit: I see Ghaz posted the tank I was thinking of. Thanks
Magc8Ball wrote: Weird that the Chaos leak pictures showed a "Renegade Knight" page, but there wasn't an entry for it anywhere on the points cost page. I suppose there might be another page with LOW entries on it, given some of the Chaos daemon engines and named Greater Daemons available.
Note it doesn't have the heretic astartes faction keyword, it's likely in an entirely separate section of the book.
Is anyone else worried about the standard changes to large blast weapons? My main army has been IG/AM since I started playing in 5th and moving all my large blasts to 1d6 shots is a massive nerf to a significant portion of my force. I'm running 2 minimalist LRBTs right now (Standard Cannon and no sponsons) and having cannons only HIT an average of 1.75 times a round is pretty depressing. Even an ideal scenario of 6 hits only happens every 0.26% of the time, where before hitting 8 models would be an amazing shot for sure, but not unheard of either.
Not to mention I've got a Valkyrie armed with multiple rocket pods, which originally I chose because my circle of friends ran a significant amount of ork boys and kroot. d6 shots from those strictly anti-infantry rockets would be a devastating change.
luke1705 wrote: I actually like that they have the cost of all these models with no wargear instead of building the cost of their default wargear into the unit. It allows them to cost things much more appropriately instead of "cost of this weapon minus the cost of the weapons you lose by upgrading to it" which naturally varied wildly from unit to unit
You know that it's totally possible for them to have an internal point list and calculate the points per model without forcing us to do it for models that only have a single option? It's pretty dumb if 4 terminators can only have a powerfist/storm bolter that we have to then equip them with such.
Not that dumb if they assume they'll go in later and tweak the cost of any of these components individually.
It reduces the number of places they need to go in and fiddle with the point costs. If the powerfist is too cheap, they change the cost once and call it a day. No need to hunt down a lot of individual places where the cost might occur if it was pre-calculated.
Hell, it also makes it dead easy to change just about everything about units as well. Say they want terminators to start with a default SB+power sword instead of a fist. They go to the entry, change the starting equipment, and then leave the rest alone.
This is the ideal setup for a living ruleset that is meant to be tweaked as we go on. If everything were pre-figured then that would lead to more places to make mistakes and typos as changes were implemented. For a bit of extra complexity on the army build side (and not all that much, all told) they make the product a lot more future proof once changes roll in.
If it wasn't like this, I would question how tied to "yearly updates" they really were.
luke1705 wrote: I actually like that they have the cost of all these models with no wargear instead of building the cost of their default wargear into the unit. It allows them to cost things much more appropriately instead of "cost of this weapon minus the cost of the weapons you lose by upgrading to it" which naturally varied wildly from unit to unit
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Loopstah wrote: Anyone who's seen the nid lists know if spike rifles or stranglewebs are in?
I'm waiting for Nid leaks too...by Friday at the latest I'll know everything
I'll be keeping an ear out for you come Friday!! Keen as to see what the nids have in store.
Well to be fair, I'll be "playtesting" on Friday lmao so depending on how late that goes, it might not be until Saturday that you hear things. But don't worry, things will be heard. For I will certainly be playing Nids on Friday
Magc8Ball wrote: Weird that the Chaos leak pictures showed a "Renegade Knight" page, but there wasn't an entry for it anywhere on the points cost page. I suppose there might be another page with LOW entries on it, given some of the Chaos daemon engines and named Greater Daemons available.
If the cover is anything to go by, they're a separate faction like Imperial Knights are which would explain it.
Slave wrote: I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.
Remember that this is without any weapons, most of which will likely double its strength (or have a set strength value). And it'll almost assuredly do d6 damage per wound (or better) as per the Trygon
I'll keep my comments short about the one thing I have a vested interest in - Kroot.
In summary, Kroot lost the sniper rounds upgrade and a melee attack. They have gained an inch of movement and get back to Strength 4 in melee. Krootox will get to use their Toughness 5 and always advance an additional 6" on top of their 7" movement. Kroot Hounds have a nice 12" movement and reroll failed charges against units that took a wound earlier that turn. The Shaper dishes out Leadership bonuses to units within 6" in the form of using his base Leadership (7 instead of 6 or 5 in the case of the hounds) and if he manages to slay a model in melee then all Kroot units within 6" ignore Morale tests. He also creates a 6" bubble that allows all Kroot units to reroll failed wound rolls of 1.
So, reading all of this, I do like the required synergy between the Shaper and the rest of the units, but do not find it very reliable. Keeping that Shaper within 6" of Kroot units seems difficult. Krootox always Advance 6" and Hounds move 12", and even the Carnivores get a pre-game 7" move that, oddly enough, the Shaper does not get. The Shaper is probably behind the other units after the first turn and can't play catch-up. It's also unlikely he can actually destroy a model in melee so relying on that to prevent all Morale tests at the end of the turn is a fool's game. I'm also pretty disappointed that a Kroot assault is less effective than the shots they take before charging- not what I wanted them to be like on the battlefield.
The Always Advance 6" rule for Krootox is a nice, reliable way to keep them moving up with the Hounds, but seems to be in major conflict with the fact they have 48" rapid fire guns. That's an annoying choice to have to make. Hounds seem really fun, though, as they're going to be screaming across the battlefield at 13-18" each turn and I love their rule for catching a blood scent and getting to reroll failed charges against a wounded unit. At 4 points a pop and a -1 AP (which the Krootox do not get, strangely), they can actually do some early damage. It's just a shame that they're so fast and there doesn't seem to be a way to keep a Shaper near them for any bonuses.
I understand these rules are meant for a T'au army, so the Kroot will probably be hanging back near a gunline and that will allow the Shaper to be useful, but I was thinking ahead to a future Kroot Mercenaries release and am using these rules as a template for how such an army may function.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.
I am curious if the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior will be able to be taken separately now. They are listed separately, so it is certainly possible. Which means I might just take the Rhino Primaris alone, rather than both. If I can do that, I might model the Excelsior as just a regular Land Raider.
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
Yea but there are no firing arcs anymore, so a flyer can just circle the board shooting 360 all game.
For psychic powers, not only are you prevented from casting the same (non smite) power twice, you are also limited to three psychic powers on each list so far. With most armies apparently being forced to draw from a single list.
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
Yea but there are no firing arcs anymore, so a flyer can just circle the board shooting 360 all game.
You're right, the optimal course of action is to fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long.
Desubot wrote: storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
In all honesty. There are three ways this could have gone.
Option 1: The least fluffy way, was to just make storm bolters in to a completely new weapon with completely different stats. This would improve them, but wouldn't jive with 30 years for fluff.
Option 2: Storm bolter becomes a linked bolter, the things wielded by non-terminators and infantry units become combi-bolters (i.e. Rapid Fire 2, but -1 to hit). This would have jived with 2nd Edition's use of them, but everyone that wasn't an Imperial terminator would cry murder at the thought of firing their weapon at a negative (even if at -1 to-hit the thing is still better than the original storm bolter).
Option 3: Stop pretending there is a difference between two linked bolters (bikes), storm bolters, and combi-bolters.
Part of me would have preferred option 1, but I think option 2 is the most logical without causing tactical terminators to spend too many points on shooting and assault. They're still generalists, but not overpaying for shooting while becoming quite a bit better in the CQB environment they're supposed to thrive in. A storm bolter is just a fancy name for a double bolter, and a lot of armies have other versions of the exact same weapon concept. We didn't need 2-3 different sets of rules for two bolters firing at the same time while being close together.
Making them all RF2 was the most elegant solution that also upgunned tactical terminators to a level that wasn't laughable. Deep striking tactical terminators will actually be able to send out a wall of bolts now, possibly acting like the ace-in-the-hole linebreakers they were meant to be.
Except there is a difference, combi bolters inter a -1 to hit penalty for firing both guns while the storm bolter does not.
That does sound pretty sad for a Psychic Army. Three powers plus smite a turn is fine in small games, not so much in large. I find the Kroot lack of a 2nd attack disappointing. Virtually every other close combat unit seems to have been buffed.
Desubot wrote: storm bolters are a little disappointing that its the exact same thing as twin linked bolters. not that its bad or anything 4 shots is 4 shots.
In all honesty. There are three ways this could have gone.
Option 1: The least fluffy way, was to just make storm bolters in to a completely new weapon with completely different stats. This would improve them, but wouldn't jive with 30 years for fluff.
Option 2: Storm bolter becomes a linked bolter, the things wielded by non-terminators and infantry units become combi-bolters (i.e. Rapid Fire 2, but -1 to hit). This would have jived with 2nd Edition's use of them, but everyone that wasn't an Imperial terminator would cry murder at the thought of firing their weapon at a negative (even if at -1 to-hit the thing is still better than the original storm bolter).
Option 3: Stop pretending there is a difference between two linked bolters (bikes), storm bolters, and combi-bolters.
Part of me would have preferred option 1, but I think option 2 is the most logical without causing tactical terminators to spend too many points on shooting and assault. They're still generalists, but not overpaying for shooting while becoming quite a bit better in the CQB environment they're supposed to thrive in. A storm bolter is just a fancy name for a double bolter, and a lot of armies have other versions of the exact same weapon concept. We didn't need 2-3 different sets of rules for two bolters firing at the same time while being close together.
Making them all RF2 was the most elegant solution that also upgunned tactical terminators to a level that wasn't laughable. Deep striking tactical terminators will actually be able to send out a wall of bolts now, possibly acting like the ace-in-the-hole linebreakers they were meant to be.
Except there is a difference, combi bolters inter a -1 to hit penalty for firing both guns while the storm bolter does not.
I know that is the general rule for combi-weapons, but have we seen stats for combi-bolters yet? They could just rename them Twin Bolters and they'd be identical to storm bolters.
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.
I am curious if the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior will be able to be taken separately now. They are listed separately, so it is certainly possible. Which means I might just take the Rhino Primaris alone, rather than both. If I can do that, I might model the Excelsior as just a regular Land Raider.
Of course you can field them separately, stop applying 7th edition restrictions to 8th. Basically you need to relearn the game from scratch.
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kestral wrote: That does sound pretty sad for a Psychic Army. Three powers plus smite a turn is fine in small games, not so much in large. I find the Kroot lack of a 2nd attack disappointing. Virtually every other close combat unit seems to have been buffed.
Actually no, so far almost every assault unit lost attacks. Death company, berserkers etc etc. Plus kroot now hit everything on a 3+ and are s4 again. In range of a shaper they reroll 1's. I'd say at worst they took a step sideways and personally I think they got better. They are faster, can rapid fire before assaulting, they strike first on the charge... Look at the cost for Christ sake how much did you really expect?
Flyers count as destroyed when they leave the board, the sun shark still has to move straight after one pivot of 90 degrees max, and it's minimum move has been bumped to 20 inches.
I see a lot less people taking flyers if that's the norm.
Also, what do you think the new standard points level to play at will be, given people will want to use their model collections in similar amounts as before? I'm thinking 3000.
Yea but there are no firing arcs anymore, so a flyer can just circle the board shooting 360 all game.
You're right, the optimal course of action is to fly in a little square in the middle of the board all game long.
That's kinda goofy.
Welcome to 7th edition Tyranids (aka codex Flyrant)
It gets old after a while, but you do have some interesting tactical decisions to pursue, and the fact that you are way more mobile than your opponent usually means that you are dictating to your opponent faster than he can react, unless he is exceptionally crafty and can see multiple turns of your expected moves in advance
Most close combat weapons will add an attack back to their profile, and most assault units will get to also fire their pistol in close combat. I would say it's a wash while dedicated assault units definitely got a buff from the new weaponry being so powerful.
rollawaythestone wrote: Most close combat weapons will add an attack back to their profile, and most assault units will get to also fire their pistol in close combat. I would say it's a wash while dedicated assault units definitely got a buff from the new weaponry being so powerful.
So far we have only seen 3 weapons that add an additional attack, chainswords, combat blades and choppas.
Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.
Galas wrote: Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.
20 kroot and a shaper is cheap and firing 40 s4 shots rerolling 1's followed by another 20 punches in assault at s4 rerolling 1's and hitting everything on a 3+ is nothing to skoff at.
Galas wrote: Yeah, Kroots are chaff. For what they cost they are very good. They can't be competitive meele units compared with other meele units of more meele focused armys. They are good mele units to Tau standarts. They do their job just right.
20 kroot and a shaper is cheap and firing 40 s4 shots rerolling 1's followed by another 20 punches in assault at s4 rerolling 1's and hitting everything on a 3+ is nothing to skoff at.
They will die to a breeze tought. But they are naked bird-men, what can you expect?
So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).
Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.
Slave wrote: I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.
It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.
This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.
McGibs wrote: I mean... it keeps people from just spamming the same spell over and over again.
Actually its forcing you to cast smite over and over again...I agree it will speed up this phase without every caster being able to cast multiple times but for certain armies (like Daemon Tzeentch) it will get pretty boring with most of your offence just being casting smite...
There is the primaris rhino listed and there is something in the lord of war section for 400 points but the picture is cut off, could possibly be the redemptor if it's going to be lord of war level.
The Rhino Primaris is the existing command variant found on the same datasheet as the Land Raider Excelsior.
I am curious if the Rhino Primaris and Land Raider Excelsior will be able to be taken separately now. They are listed separately, so it is certainly possible. Which means I might just take the Rhino Primaris alone, rather than both. If I can do that, I might model the Excelsior as just a regular Land Raider.
Of course you can field them separately, stop applying 7th edition restrictions to 8th. Basically you need to relearn the game from scratch.
I certainly hope you are right. A Primaris Rhino with Pedro Kantor and a Command Squad toting 5 Combi-Plasmas or a Hellblaster Squad with Plasma Incinerators. Especially if he has the ability to give them rerolls of 1s, since I will Overcharge more that way. The Excelsior might be worth it, but probably not over a regular Land Raider.
McGibs wrote: I mean... it keeps people from just spamming the same spell over and over again.
Actually its forcing you to cast smite over and over again...I agree it will speed up this phase without every caster being able to cast multiple times but for certain armies (like Daemon Tzeentch) it will get pretty boring with most of your offence just being casting smite...
AoS horrors have flickering flames as a ranged attack used in the shooting phase, not a specific spell, so it may be some things got shuffled in that manner.
Slave wrote: I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.
It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.
This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.
Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.
The regular screamer killer configuration should never be STR 6. The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.
I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.
STR 6 is sad. Hell, STR 9 was a shock when they lowered it the first time.
I really need to see this.
If they are available in broods, it won't suck as bad.
So if the chapter master rule is anything to go by it seems chapter masters give refill all hits while captains give Errol 1s.
Really like how they are presenting things. Makes it easy to make characters or units with a bunch of options. Curious to see how they limit access since it all seems to be one list.
Vehicle prices are interesting but I like the direction they are going with it. Vehicles should be more durable and expensive. Now they have rules that better reflect their role. I do find it interesting how all tau vehicles have the degrading stat lines since they start at 12 wounds
Also 100 point drop pods and 70 point rhinos. Will be interesting to see their stat lines and how they pan out in this edition.
Nightlord1987 wrote: so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?
So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).
It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.
Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.
I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.
Nightlord1987 wrote: so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?
So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).
It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.
Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.
I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.
Considering the missions are nearly exactly the same and the core missions also heavily favor elite mobile armies. So I fully expect armies like eldar to continue to do well with the core missions and I fully expect tournament organizers to continue to make thier own mission primers. Seriously they barely even changed any missions and few tournaments even considered using the BRB missions before because of how unbalanced they were. It honestly doesnt matter how well gw balanced the army indexs if the missions people are playing so heavily favor a certain army design.
Slave wrote: Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.
I hope they are, otherwise the Carnifex will be overpowered.
The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.
It still is a high-strength battering ram. Point for point one of the most durable units in the game, does auto mortal-wounds just by charging, can wound almost any unit in the game on 2's or 3's with the right upgrades, etc.
I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.
Oh well. Times change.
Carnifex have had extremely high base strength for over a decade and they've also been sub-optimal crap for over a decade. I'm perfectly happy with them sacrificing base strength in favor of being an actually good unit and matching their fluff.
Jadenim wrote: So, given the Riptide's nova power still has a 2d6 assault move (even if not assaulting) might (hopefully!) indicate that jet pack moves are still in.
Actually, to me it indicates the opposite. If they were still in, they wouldn't give the Riptide exactly that as an ability that could potentially damage it when activated. It used to be you roll 3d6.
Magc8Ball wrote: Weird that the Chaos leak pictures showed a "Renegade Knight" page, but there wasn't an entry for it anywhere on the points cost page. I suppose there might be another page with LOW entries on it, given some of the Chaos daemon engines and named Greater Daemons available.
Note it doesn't have the heretic astartes faction keyword, it's likely in an entirely separate section of the book.
It does have the Chaos keyword though, making it usable.
Jadenim wrote: So, given the Riptide's nova power still has a 2d6 assault move (even if not assaulting) might (hopefully!) indicate that jet pack moves are still in.
Actually, to me it indicates the opposite. If they were still in, they wouldn't give the Riptide exactly that as an ability that could potentially damage it when activated. It used to be you roll 3d6.
4d6 actually. It was 4d6 if they nova'd. I can all but guarantee jump shoot jump is gone for jet packs and hopefully jetbikes as well. It was a gamey horrible design feature. That said I dont mind it as a special rule here and there.
Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.
Slave wrote: I am having a hard time with a STR 6 Carnifex. That would be the lowest it's ever been.
It got a near 50-point reduction, has a faster movement speed, higher toughness and nearly triple the amount of wounds. With crushing claws it's strength 12.
This is shaping up to be the strongest incarnation of Carnifex we've ever seen.
Unless crushing claws are - 1 to hit.
The regular screamer killer configuration should never be STR 6. The hallmark of this model for 26 YEARS is a high strength battering ran.
I first used them in 1992. This is an extreme departure from the design of the model. I personally have 3 with scythes and bioplasma, just as they were since day 1.
STR 6 is sad. Hell, STR 9 was a shock when they lowered it the first time.
I really need to see this.
If they are available in broods, it won't suck as bad.
Consider: The design space has changed a lot. Carnifexes used to be the meanest thing in town.
But now you have biotitans like the Trygon and his bigger forge world sisters. You have Knights and such in other factions.
A screamer-killer is still a wrecking ball that hits like a truck, but it's a small enough wrecking ball that you can spam it.
And given the small stature of the model next to those huge things, a swarm of them is the way to make them stay scary.
(Incidentaly if we can have a plastic dreadnought the size of a leviathan, I want a plastic super-Carnifex to the same tune.)
Yea the carnifex is tiny now compared to the other bug kits, makes more sense to tone him down then have it remain like 7th where fore some reason he was naturally stronger then every other big bug despite being 1/3 the size.
Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.
I feel like the OP will have HEAPS of updates required in the next few weeks, due to leaks.
Pretty please PM me of anything that pops up in the thread, I would prefer 5 PMs of the same thing then none (makes it so I can do quick updates at work.)
If someone posts something, and you think it should be in the OP, press quote on their post, select all and copy, then just paste in a personal message to me
I really appreciate all the support everyone has been providing so far in helping keep the OP up to date!
rollawaythestone wrote: Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.
rollawaythestone wrote: Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.
It says he can only cast 2 a turn.
Ah fair enough. There is so much info being dumped my reading comprehension is being affected.
rollawaythestone wrote: Casting one of each psychic power per turn is a big limitation, but it seems like Psykers will still be powerful, even armies of them. Mephiston for instance has 4 psychic powers (Smite, and all the Sanguinary powers), and so you'll be able to cast at least 4 powers per turn. If we have access to additional tables, it creates an interesting dynamic - you might be choosing as many powers as you can get just because it allows you to cast more powers overall - at the expense of doubling down on a single power for redundancy sake.
It says he can only cast 2 a turn.
Ah fair enough. There is so much info being dumped my reading comprehension is being affected.
Don't worry about it mate, we all have been off so far. As you said, data dump overload.
gigasnail wrote: matched play carrying over the psychic power rule of 1. so much for being able to have reliable access to catalyst.
I've read it over about three times and I'm just hoping that it's something that tournaments ignore....or that the points costs for psykers is much lower than it was. Picking the power is great. Everyone being able to cast is great. It appears that having more than 3 psykers in any army is not great.
If I were to guess armies that tend to be psyker heavy will have ways to keep the Rule of One from crippling them. The Tzeentch book from AoS has a lot of extra spells to help keep Tzeentch wizards from running out of different spells to cast. I would guess that in 40k armies that tend to use a lot of psykers will either get loads of spells to pick from and/or certain exceptions to the Rule of One.
Problem is this is yet another non-scalable rule. Psykers have bigger impact the smaller the game you have. Fine if you are on the exact point value designed, bad if you want smaller or bigger battle.
I hate unscalable rules. Rules should work equally well whether you play 1000 pts or 5000 pts.
changemod wrote: Yeah okay, the new points system is just downright -hideous- for ease of use.
Also I see Kroot Hound spam becoming a thing: 4ppm assault chaff with a high move rate has all kinds of applications for Tau.
People modelling them as assault drones instead of unfluffily having swarms of hounds with no actual Kroot perhaps?
To be fair the points sheet isn,t made to be easy to use but easy to update. Power is for ease of use.
Frankly I'll take a slightly less convienent points system that can be rejiggered to be more balanced on the fly and only needing to print 1-2 new pages from a pdf to update my book than what we currently have.
Power will let you play games more quickly. Points will (in theory) let you play games more fairly.
It reduces the number of places they need to go in and fiddle with the point costs. If the powerfist is too cheap, they change the cost once and call it a day. No need to hunt down a lot of individual places where the cost might occur if it was pre-calculated.
This has flaw included in it as well. It assumes everybody benefits from weapon equally but obviously not every wielder of powerfist is equally good target for powerfist.
Power fist should cost differently based on who's wielding if you really want to balance it.
Nightlord1987 wrote: so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?
So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).
It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.
Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.
I don't understand the purpose of this change. Perhaps it is because elite armies won't perform so well in 8th ed as before (due to save modifiers and damages on heavy weapons for instance), and/or perhaps because numbers will be a greater advantage than before (because templates are gone). At any rate I'm not sure I like it because it means you'll have to be very careful not to have too many units when you design your army list, which will make cheap troops slightly less interesting.
Or decide not to fight it, take mind set you go second and just flood in units.
So having time to mull stuff over away from the internet I'm actually thinking we're seeing future proofing not just in the points costs for some weapons (namely on Primaris Marines), but in the keywords. Forge World, Sept, Order...it looks like in the future we should be seeing more subfaction keywords that will help create greater divergences in how armies are constructed out of any single codex.
Deshkar wrote: Quite surprising, there isn't more leaks for Tyranids and especially Chaos Daemons. Alot of places, have the indexes on hand already .
Some leaks are text only as well. Granted not everyone has a camera capable of taking high enough quality images to leak the books, but it's surprising the number of leaks we have yet still are missing large swathes of armies from the same book as some of the leaks we,ve gotten.
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Nightlord1987 wrote: Yea, the benefit being, you've seen your enemies deployment, getting to place more units afterwards allows you to counter deploy more wisely.
I do remember this being a thing back in earlier editions.
Im just shocked that the guy placing 5 Imperial Knights is always gonna go first now.
And that,s probably why sieze the initative stayed in,
David Clarke wrote: Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.
axisofentropy wrote: Anyone notice the Hellblaster Power Level is different in yesterdays' leak and today's published dataslate?
Spoiler:
this is weird. maybe ask about this on facebook, tho I doubt they'll respond to leaks.
Frankenberry wrote: So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).
Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.
While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?
Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.
Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.
David Clarke wrote: Anyone got any idea whats going on with points costing on the Primaris Marines as they differ quite widely between the leaked sheet for the core set and the full space marine Matched Play points costings in the more recent leaks. The Hellblaster squad goes down from 200 to 190 while the Inceptors spike up from 159 to 225. Are there full data slates that have yet to be unveiled? Or a playtesting cycle so aggressive that the points change between the separate products going to print? I'm not keen on one of the armies in the core set which appear to be designed as an easy ingress point to the hobby having different points values day 1 depending on where you look.
axisofentropy wrote: Anyone notice the Hellblaster Power Level is different in yesterdays' leak and today's published dataslate?
Spoiler:
this is weird. maybe ask about this on facebook, tho I doubt they'll respond to leaks.
The same thing came p with Inceptors too. I think one value is from the starter or perhaps the GW training seminar for 8th while the other is from the index, but that's just a guess.
Nightlord1987 wrote: so, if I read the deployment rules correctly, after the alternating unit to unit, the player who finishes deployment first, gets to go first?
So a nerf for MSU type armies, but also more workable with the increase/decrease of some unit prices (like transports).
It's a nerf to MSU (which is good), but it will also favor elite armies with fewer units over mass armies, which is bad.
Basically, with this rule, marines will almost always play first against orks, IG or 'nids.
I don't understand the purpose of this change.
Because elite armies are by their very nature better trained and equipped hence the elite description? In previous editions you had a 1-3 d6 strategy rating that you rolled for first turn... elite armies had 3d6 and horde ones had 1d6 to better reflect how unwieldy each force.
Frankenberry wrote: So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).
Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.
While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?
Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.
Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.
So what are you seeing that looks so good?
Everything in the entire game changed points, and rules. Basically anything that looks good or bad based on the old meta is faulty and we need to forget that it existed. 8th can only really be compared to itself.
Frankly though, that's a good thing because it means we'll need time to unravel and break the game and that will lead to the game getting better in the long run.
Out with the old, in with the new.
Actually makes me really glad I'm starting small with a new army and slowly adding stuff to it a unit at a time. Gives me time to adjust to the new game and increase the complexity of my army more smoothly. Even for existing armies easing in escalation style will likely be the best way to get used to how the game now works rather than relying on old meta concepts for an irrelevant edition.
Frankenberry wrote: So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).
Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.
While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?
Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.
Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.
So what are you seeing that looks so good?
Relentless is no longer a rule, and since DC aren't able to use Heavy Weapons, they take no penalty for moving and shooting. The fact they can fire their pistols in close combat is good, it effectively adds an additional attack, a potent one if they have a special pistol. DC can ignore any wound, including a mortal wound on a 6. Instant death is gone, so nothing takes that ability away. They are able to deep strike turn one and possibly even charge turn one, which is new for them. They are fast as hell otherwise. The DC Dread can consolidate 6" instead of 3", which means it can avoid a ton of overwatch. They all can benefit from Sanguinary Priests again, which means an additional +1 to Strength and the possibility of coming back from the dead.
Sanguinary Guard pump out a bunch of wounds now. That's way they cost more. Their Encarmine weapons deal d3 wounds per hit. Add in the Sanguinary Priest near them and they are putting out a lot of high strength, high AP attacks. Sanguinary Guard are in a good place. And if you put an Ancient near them, they are fearless.
And yes, we have seen the data sheets for the characters, and most of them are pretty good.
Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.
To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.
Kingsley wrote: Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.
To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.
It is really a question of targets. Against Toughness 4-5 & 8-9, the Gravgun only suffers from less range and does more damage against 2+ & 3+ Save targets if you are not willing to risk blowing yourself up. Every time you need more damage for a Plasmagun, you need to risk death. This means Gravguns are the superior choice against heavy infantry, armored vehicles, and monsters since you have a chance of doing up to 3 wounds on a single shot. Plasma is better against light/medium infantry that only have 1 Wound.
Frankenberry wrote: So, it's probably already been said...but it's finally worth taking the BA characters! I'm so stoked to finally have a use for Astorath and the Sanguinor (now that he can hide behind his buddies).
Also, with the various buffs, (shame DC aren't fearless though) I think BA's in a good spot.
While we don't have a ton of info on BA yet, everything I read in the leaks made me think they are going to be pretty bad. Other than the ICs, it looks like Points increases pretty much across the board, some very hefty. I'm not sure how you can determine quite yet that its finally worth taking BA characters as we don't have any rules for them yet, correct me if I am wrong and missed the data sheets?
Death company and their dreads took a rather large hit. The points decrease on DC marines is certainly not worth all the special rules and improved stat line they lost (fearless, rage, better FnP, furious charge, possibly relentless), and then look at the DC dreads weapon options. Look at blood talons and then furioso fists, what a joke, talons are utterly pointless to take over fists AND cost more points and the DC dread lost all their DC rules also.
Sang guard went up in points. Baal pred went up in points, sang priest went up in points. Furioso went up in points.
So what are you seeing that looks so good?
Relentless is no longer a rule, and since DC aren't able to use Heavy Weapons, they take no penalty for moving and shooting. The fact they can fire their pistols in close combat is good, it effectively adds an additional attack, a potent one if they have a special pistol. DC can ignore any wound, including a mortal wound on a 6. Instant death is gone, so nothing takes that ability away. They are able to deep strike turn one and possibly even charge turn one, which is new for them. They are fast as hell otherwise. The DC Dread can consolidate 6" instead of 3", which means it can avoid a ton of overwatch. They all can benefit from Sanguinary Priests again, which means an additional +1 to Strength and the possibility of coming back from the dead.
Sanguinary Guard pump out a bunch of wounds now. That's way they cost more. Their Encarmine weapons deal d3 wounds per hit. Add in the Sanguinary Priest near them and they are putting out a lot of high strength, high AP attacks. Sanguinary Guard are in a good place. And if you put an Ancient near them, they are fearless.
And yes, we have seen the data sheets for the characters, and most of them are pretty good.
Just some background so you know where I am coming from/came from, I never played a game in 7th. I played 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th, and quoit when I saw rules for 7th. I felt 6th was bad enough and they doubled down on all the bits I hated and added even more fat to the game. I played BA heavily in 5th and 6th, along with my first army from 2nd Deathwing. So if you see some stuff that looks out of whack, it might be because i'm looking at new stuff, stuff from 6th, and some of the stuff I saw from the 7th codex mixed in.
So, Firing pistols is decent, the more I think about it though the more I'm beginning to feel like it's really a slight nerf over the extra CC attack. You can only fire the pistol in your shooting phase so if you get charged, your not firing it in the first round of CC, and If you charge, presumably you shot before the charge, which could possibly cause a failed charge if opponent removes enough front units, and then you get to fire them again in the 3rd round of CC. I just feel like the extra attack was better for units that had special CCWs. I might change my mind on this with some play but I'm on the fence at the moment.
I don't care for 6+ FNP, at one point it was 4+, which was OP for sure, then it went to 5+ and it felt pretty good there, and now at 6+ i don't think it's going to be much of a factor with all the extra buffs shooting has gotten. I hope I'm wrong but I can do the math on that and its not great.
The turn 1 DS charge is awesome, and something CC armies needed desperately to compete with shooting armies in 40k. Having said that it's fairly unreliable since your going to need an 9+ roll on the dice unless they have something like decent of angels that mitigates it somewhat. hopefully we do.
We'll see how good the 6" consolidation on DC dreads is, I mean, you've got to finish the squad off, and have opponents units within 7" of him. Consolidation into CC was awesome in 4th ed.(?) but it was a different game then too.
The rest of the stuff I can't comment on because I haven't seen the data sheets for the sang guard, characters etc etc, can you point me in their direction so I can check them out? Thanks.
EDIT: NM, just found the data sheets, going to read them now!
NamelessBard wrote: As others have said, it hardly looks lame especially not at that point cost.
Perhaps that's true, perhaps it's not. I wouldn't know, because I haven't seen them, hence the reason I asked for someone to point me in the right direction. You seem to know where they are, so maybe look at the first part of my post and answer that.
Kingsley wrote: Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.
GW balances things using a pendulum system. Rather than fix problems, they swing hard, so that what they're fixing becomes basically irrelevant.
They're also good at overbalancing. Grav Gun shots were too dangerous, and there were too many of them. A reasonable person might try to fix one by limiting the other (lower damage, but still the same amount of shots, or same damage, but fewer shots). GW often opts to 'fix' both.
This is why we get 8th Ed Grav-Guns the way they are.
Just the base points (25 each, not including any wargear). I don't think they'll change much staying around that point value (marine stats, 3++, ignore cover modifiers).
How they deep strike is probably the only really interesting bit.
NamelessBard wrote: As others have said, it hardly looks lame especially not at that point cost.
Perhaps that's true, perhaps it's not. I wouldn't know, because I haven't seen them, hence the reason I asked for someone to point me in the right direction. You seem to know where they are, so maybe look at the first part of my post and answer that.
Not confirmed:
Carnifex
67 points M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+
It doesn't degrade
if charge does mortal wound on a 4+
Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3 Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3 Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage.
If with 2 weapons +1 attacks
2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.
How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn. It means that each T7 3+/5+ wound costs about 10 points each if you assume it heals even once. Sounds pretty efficient to me, even with multiwound guns all over the place.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?
They'll have key word "Blood Angel" where <chapter> should be. But don't hold out for anything decent. Probably just furious charge if we are lucky....
Death company seeming to lose feel no pain is the biggest bummer here, unless black rage has that built in.
Or decide not to fight it, take mind set you go second and just flood in units.
That's actually a pretty good plan. I guess I'll do just that.
On a different note, I noticed that the icon of Khorne will be sweet on deepstriking units (easier to get in HtH). Could be nasty on raptors or terminators...
warboss wrote:
Because elite armies are by their very nature better trained and equipped hence the elite description? In previous editions you had a 1-3 d6 strategy rating that you rolled for first turn... elite armies had 3d6 and horde ones had 1d6 to better reflect how unwieldy each force.
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to use the fluff here... too many possible counter-examples imho...
Therion wrote: How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
I guess the heldrake will have to pay for its weapons as well, increasing the cost.
Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.
Matt.Kingsley wrote:Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.
If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW.
You would be wrong. It has a 5+ invulnerable save from its Riptide Shield Generator, and Shielded Missile Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The only thing that mentions a 3+ invulnerable save is the Nova Shield which is gained by using the Nova Reactor.
Therion wrote: How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
I guess the heldrake will have to pay for its weapons as well, increasing the cost.
You're right, but I don't think the 'claws' cost anything and the stock autocannon probably doesn't cost much if anything at all.
Enginseer Kalashnikov wrote: The death company have Black Rage, but the terminator ancient doesn't. In fact, he doesn't have anything pointing to an kind of bespoke chapter tactic. So I guess chapter tactics and legion rules still being around was just a blatant lie on GW'S part then?
They'll have key word "Blood Angel" where <chapter> should be. But don't hold out for anything decent. Probably just furious charge if we are lucky....
Death company seeming to lose feel no pain is the biggest bummer here, unless black rage has that built in.
Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.
It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.
Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.
It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.
In what way was I implying it isn't a good unit? I'm just saying that it's not quite as cheap as it looks to be.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.
If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW.
Could be a native 5++ that can Nova to a 3++? The 3's and 5's look very similar to me on some of the lower res images.
Edit: ninja'd
Caederes wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:Is it just me, or does the Riptide had an ability that gives it a native 3++, and a Nova Reactor option get a 3++.
If I'm not secretly blind and that is the case... oh GW.
You would be wrong. It has a 5+ invulnerable save from its Riptide Shield Generator, and Shielded Missile Drones have a 4+ invulnerable save. The only thing that mentions a 3+ invulnerable save is the Nova Shield which is gained by using the Nova Reactor.
Ok, I'm just blind then.
*Looks back at the leak I saw*
...well that and this thing is blurry and has a bad resolution lol.
I'm bit concerned about the close combat. Everything seems to be bit weaker in combat as there are no attack bonuses from charging or additional close combat weapons and pistols kick in only after a round of combat. On the other hand hidden fists are valid as ever, although with less attacks and to hit modifiers for them as well. Looks like the melee units are even more dependent of their sergeants than before, on the other hand they now always die last. Well time shows how it goes, but somehow my feeling is that stuff like assault marines are still quite bad when they don't do much damage and opponent can just retreat from combat and shoot them afterwards.
Kingsley wrote: Sad to see grav-guns get dumpstered by the new edition - Rapid Fire 1 is a huge nerf from Salvo 2/3, since it means that they will only fire one shot at 18" instead of potentially 3. I was hoping for Heavy 2.
To make matters worse, plasma guns cost less and are much improved thanks to variable power settings. The grav-cannon is still a valuable option, but I don't see why anyone would pay 15 points for a grav-gun when they could pay 13 points for a plasma gun, which has more range, higher strength, the same AP, and can overcharge if increased damage is necessary.
It is really a question of targets. Against Toughness 4-5 & 8-9, the Gravgun only suffers from less range and does more damage against 2+ & 3+ Save targets if you are not willing to risk blowing yourself up. Every time you need more damage for a Plasmagun, you need to risk death. This means Gravguns are the superior choice against heavy infantry, armored vehicles, and monsters since you have a chance of doing up to 3 wounds on a single shot. Plasma is better against light/medium infantry that only have 1 Wound.
Against Toughness 5, the grav-gun wounds on a 4+ versus the plasma gun's 3+; against Toughness 4, the grav-gun wounds on 3+ but overcharge plasma wounds on 2+. Similarly, overcharge plasma wounds on 4+ instead of 5+ against Toughness 8. Further, the two wounds from an overcharged plasma gun is better than the d3 wounds from a grav-gun against targets with precisely 2 wounds - including Terminators and Primaris Marines.
The plasma gun is better or equal against any one-wound model whatsoever (so the majority of basic units in the game), and overcharging the plasma is often better against multi-wound models as well and almost always better vs. 2 wound ones - and the plasma gun has 6" more range and costs less. Yes, there's a risk of blowing yourself up, but the new rules for Captains (among other things) point towards that being easy to mitigate.
Therion wrote:How many attacks do vehicles with * for A get in close combat? Both the Heldrake and Chaos Land Raider dataslates show * for A value but the degrade box doesn't show A anywhere. Is it outside the camera shot?
The stock Heldrake looks awfully strong for me. T7 12 wounds, 3+ save, 5+ invulnerable, flies, shoots, fights in close combat and does D3 wounds per hit. For 138 points. And it heals one wound automatically at the start of every turn.
Like, for comparison, the LR is T8 16 wounds with no invulnerable and no healing and costs about three times as much kitted up. It does have that 2+ save though, and carries some dudes.
The 138 doesn't include its wargear which you have to pay for. From what I saw the Hades Autocannon is pretty iffy as it will need 5s to-hit if you move and shoot with it, and the Baleflamer is now only D6 hits. Basically, its ranged damage output went kaput but it can do quite a bit of damage in melee...which makes complete sense, it's now an actual mechanical dragon.
It's a mechanical Dragon that moves 30" per turn and assaults? Doesn't sound that bad if it can fight and brings a ton of points efficient wounds. The gun is irrelevant. Oh you have those special dudes hiding at the backlines? Yeah the Dragons get you.
In what way was I implying it isn't a good unit? I'm just saying that it's not quite as cheap as it looks to be.
I didn't mean that you did. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just saying, it seems awfully strong at least on surface level. People will probably do a ton of analysis, math based and otherwise, in the coming months to discover where the cheese is. I'm just now looking at what high toughness good save wounds cost in general. And if you can get T7 3+/5++ wounds that fly and fight pretty damn well for a bit over 10 points a pop, you'll probably see quite a few of those ^_^ Unless that's what the going rate for monstrous wounds is, but then what would be the point of one wound elite guys that cost 25 points a pop or even up to 50 points per wound?
I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(
Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake
Ok, I'm just blind then.
*Looks back at the leak I saw*
...well that and this thing is blurry and has a bad resolution lol.
Don't worry about it, these images are fairly hard to read, I can barely make out the differences in the numbers for the varying saves on the Riptide sheet myself!
There's some major changes with points though. I swear we saw the wargear points section for Chaos Marines earlier but I can't find it anywhere.
Anyway, I like how points costs for weapons aren't baked into unit prices. It makes future balance updates far easier to implement because if the Plasma Gun (for example) is deemed too cheap then it can simply have its points adjusted, or if it's just a certain unit that abuses the weapon then raising that units' points is an alternative.
I'm extremely curious about those Necron rules. Is that -2 (or better) AP for Gauss active at all times even for the basic guns? Seems a bit crazy.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I just want Daemons to be able to use Heldrakes in their detachment. Since I accidentally ordered Heldrakes and then saw I can't use them without CSM or KDK :(
Backstory: I asked "good anti-air for Daemons" and pretty much everyone said Heldrake
I'm not seeing the problem? As far as I understand, you build your army from multiple detachments. Just take one from Daemons and another that allows a bunch of fast attack (Heldrakes) for the smallest additional unit tax as possible. The Outrider detachment lets you take 6 Heldrakes and you only have to take one HQ to accompany them. I'm sure you can find something useful.
