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Post by: Mushkilla
There's a new Pragmatic Realspace Raider guide up (written by The_Burning_Eye). The article is below for those who are interested:
The Pragmatic Realspace Raider: Deployment
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Love those articles Mush, really great info.
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Post by: mercury14
So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?
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Post by: lustigjh
mercury14 wrote:So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?
RAW, yes, unless I missed a recent change
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Post by: Frozocrone
mercury14 wrote:So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?
Yes (but it can't go below too  , dat insane heroism).
Thoughts on this list that I'm considering for a 1250 tournament?
DE CAD
Lhamaeans
3x5 Kabalite Warriors in Venoms w/ 2x Splinter Cannons
5x Scourge w/ 4x Haywire Blasters
3x Reavers w/ Arena Champion (4 models)
5 Scourge w/ 4x Haywire Blasters
5 Scourge w/ 4x Heat Lance
Tau - Firebase Support Cadre
3x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, 2x EWO, 1x TL
3x Broadsides w/ HYMP, SMS, 2x EWO, 1x TL
Riptide w/ IA, EWO
Missions are two objectives, relic and maybe KP (also has FB, StW and LB). Lhamaeans in reserve as long as possible and grabs backfield objective, same for Reavers who go for Linebreaker (last reaver as I didn't know where to spend points). Firebase as I recently had the pleasure of facing it for the first time (admittedly with a Buffmander attached) and was like...wow. That happened.
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Post by: mercury14
Has anyone run Eldar CC units in Raiders yet? I ran a fun list with Striking Scorpions and Storm Guardians in them last week vs Nids and they did great. Scorpions really are a nice unit when you can reliably deliver them to the sort of target they want to face.
Banshees give me a sad with no grenades so I haven't tried them yet. Wraithblades maybe?
They're not a CC unit but what about Wraithguard in a Raider to get them where you want? Or deep-striking it and firing out of it? They dont even care if it explodes, can't really be hurt, cant be pinned.
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Post by: Frozocrone
Has anyone tried running Shredders yet? How effective are they?
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Post by: Jimsolo
mercury14 wrote:So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?
Hells yeah! This is what makes Leadership Shenanigan lists so fun! If you run a Grotesquerie, Scarlet Epicurean, and Covenite Fleshcorps formation, you can stick all the haemmies together (with an Armor of Misery or Mask of Secrets ally, even!) and stack that Ld bubble right up.
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Post by: sweetbacon
 Jimsolo wrote:mercury14 wrote:So the Freakish Spectacle -1 leadership bubble around coven units.... If I have multiple coven formations or detachments does that stack?
Hells yeah! This is what makes Leadership Shenanigan lists so fun! If you run a Grotesquerie, Scarlet Epicurean, and Covenite Fleshcorps formation, you can stick all the haemmies together (with an Armor of Misery or Mask of Secrets ally, even!) and stack that Ld bubble right up.
Ran all Coven list and WWP'd a DA complete with AoM Haemie and a Grotesquerie squad down in the Tau backfield near some Broadsides. DA shooting killed three drones and the Broadsides took a -4 Ld check and promptly ran off the board. Much laughter (on my part) ensued. Coven units are the most fun I've had playing with DE since I started using them in 5th edition.
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Post by: Jimsolo
The new Harlequin's stuff works well with it. If you take The Heroes Path formation and stick each of them in a Venom, it's pretty tasty. The Shadowseer can bring a further -2 Ld and Psychic Shriek. The Jester can make people flee off of any table edge with a single casualty...it's pretty tasty.
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Post by: Mushkilla
Got a game in against Imperial Knights. For those that are interested the link to the battle report is bellow:
BR4: Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
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Post by: mercury14
Interesting match and a difficult matchup for coven. I enjoy reading your bat reps, keep 'em up.
I'm planning on playing Coven in a regional tournament in a few weeks and was wondering how I'll deal with knights. I was considering allying in Eldar for a Wraithknight, Wraithlord with bright lances, and maybe a Mantarch.
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Post by: Lord Blackscale
Curse you work internet for keeping me away from delicious dark eldar battle reports! Dang you to heck!
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Post by: Mushkilla
mercury14 wrote:I'm planning on playing Coven in a regional tournament in a few weeks and was wondering how I'll deal with knights. I was considering allying in Eldar for a Wraithknight, Wraithlord with bright lances, and maybe a Mantarch.
Awesome let us know how it goes! 
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
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Post by: zerosignal
Played an interesting maelstrom game yesterday, my Imperial Fists vs. my housemates DE. Rough lists:
IF 1850 (Single CAD)
Chapter Master - bike, SE, TH
Terminator Assault Squad - 3 LC, 2 TH/SS - Land Raider (Godhammer pattern)
Bike Squad (5) - 2x grav gun
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, HB, Combi-plasma - Rhino w/dozer blade (combat squadded)
Tactical Squad (10) - Flamer, ML, Combi-plasma - Rhino w/dozer blade (combat squadded)
Stormtalon - skyhammer
Stormtalon - skyhammer
Thunderfire cannon
Stalker - storm bolter
Devastator Squad (5) - 2x lascannon, 2x ML
DE 1850 (Scalpel Squadron, Grotesquerie, RSR)
Archon in Raider
2x 5 kabalite warriors in Raider
3x Ravager
2x Razorwing jetfighter
3? (Grots? 3 attacks, rampage, T5, 3W guys)
Scalpel squadron - 2 venoms, 2x 5 wracks
Grotesquerie - a big blob of tough wounds that I ran away from/hid in a LR from all game!
We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination, whilst contesting/scoring his backfield objectives. His scalpel squadron wiffed and he was forced to kill the TFC turn 1 with another unit as well as the Stalker (we'd determined the previous game both units were a heavy threat to his army).
My turn 1 was an abject disaster - I think I managed to kill a venom and my bikes + CM failed the charge as the wreck made it difficult terrain... my shooting was pretty ineffective and it looked like I was going to be trounced. However over the next few turns I managed to push him off objectives and retain mine, and when my stormtalons came on I was able to hover and grab all 6 (aided by my obsec bikers thanks to the 'mounted assault' rule) with the help of some long-range bolter fire from tac squads, killing his warriors.
We stopped counting maelstrom/victory points eventually, it ended something like 19-6, and his only hope of victory was tabling me. He made a big mistake in where he brought the Grotesquerie in, and it ended up hemmed in by a Land Raider and a lot of difficult terrain (Ruins)... I'd moved a combat squad (obsec) inside to keep a backfield objective, and he was slowly running out of can-openers to kill the AV14 tank... MVP for me was my TFC Techmarine Gunner, who flamed/plasma cuttered a couple of skimmers, repaired an immobilised and two hull points on the Land Raider, and was an all-round star. That man deserves a medal! (or a new toolbox).
In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be). In terms of DE, the Scalpel Squadron seems very powerful, and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).
Apologies this is only partly DE-specific, but both myself and my opponent are learning about the army (I still have little idea what most of the more interesting units do!)
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Well from what you said about the grots..You made the right call. Get away from them asap lol. Having ignores cover against DE is byfar the best counter against them.
I played my friend who had a thunderfire cannon and Vindicare assassin...I shouldve been destroyed. But bad dice rolling on his part is the only reason I was able to pull out a win.
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Post by: zerosignal
They were pure comedy... 400? points that ate a unit worth less than half that in the whole game. To be fair though, if he'd got lucky and popped my Land Raider, I'd have been in a much worse state. I ended the game with LR+5 man tacs, techmarine, chapter master (1W!) and 5 tacs in a rhino. He still had both fighters, two Ravagers, the archon (hiding after I blew up his transport, the coward!) and the massive blob of grotesques. Another turn might have swung it for him.
MVP for him I think was the fighters, they blew up both my stormguppies and really put the hurt on my squads and bikes with the large blast, poison 2+ missiles.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Im surprised the LR made it alive.... I usually just wipe them off the board at the best chance I get. Most infantry the grots touch usually dont last long in CC. The shear amount of ID poison attacks is just insane.
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Post by: zerosignal
He was a bit unlucky. It got glanced a few times, and the techmarine repaired two hull points. Even with Lance, you need 5+ to pen it.
The grots... well, sure. But they're super slow and I'm either mounted (bikes) or mobile (rhinos). They don't have Move Through Cover. I guess the problem was he had a hammer but no anvil to crush me against, so I could just run away all game. I didn't even bother shooting at them - not much point.
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Post by: Mushkilla
Thanks for sharing your report zerosignal. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions.
zerosignal wrote:We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination
Am I reading this right did you get Ascendancy and Domination on turn 1? Even if you didn't, how did your opponent let you control all 6 objectives?
zerosignal wrote:In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be).
Who placed the first objective marker? You or your opponent? Where did you place them? Where did your opponent place them?
zerosignal wrote:..and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).
Why were your opponents grotesques trying to chase your units? When he can force them to come to him?
Thanks!
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Post by: Inevitable_Faith
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.
Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"
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Post by: zerosignal
 Mushkilla wrote:Thanks for sharing your report zerosignal. If you don't mind me asking I have a few questions.
zerosignal wrote:We played Contact Lost, which gave me a huge advantage as I started on 3 objectives and my OS plus manouvrability allowed me to get Ascendancy and Domination
Am I reading this right did you get Ascendancy and Domination on turn 1? Even if you didn't, how did your opponent let you control all 6 objectives?
zerosignal wrote:In all, I think it demonstrated how important mobility is for maelstrom (and how swingy some of the missions can be).
Who placed the first objective marker? You or your opponent? Where did you place them? Where did your opponent place them?
zerosignal wrote:..and I think we learnt the problem of an expensive deathstar-style assault unit with no mobility (I ran away from the Grots all game, except the last turn where they completely murderised the Dev Squad. They really needed a way to open up the Land Raider).
Why were your opponents grotesques trying to chase your units? When he can force them to come to him?
Thanks!
1) No, I got Ascendancy and Domination later in the game (maybe turn 3 and 4? I don't recall). I managed to blow up a raider and the embarked warriors off an objective, I had three objectives in my deployment zone with obsec units on them, and I grabbed his 3 objectives with obsec bike squad+ CM and two hovering stormtalons. It did demonstrate how obsec is a thing, but also something I really dislike about maelstrom - you're essentially playing goldfish and don't get to react to what your opponent draws.
2) We both placed objectives simultaneously (which was an error, but to speed things along - our games take ages as I am still learning!). 3 in each of our deployment zones, pretty much evenly across the table at 12" in (dawn of war deployment). Each of us had two objectives in cover (ruins) and one more in the open. At the start of the game we had 3 each. Remember objectives are placed before choosing table edge now (unsure I like this change as much, although I suppose it forces balance. Or just randomness).
3) Unsure what you mean here? By this point I was so far ahead on vp I could afford to abandon my deployment zone and run away from the stabbymc.stabbythings. It didn't help that he had poor rolls moving through cover (snake eyes on one turn), I'd kinda boxed him in with the LR, and the LR just wouldn't die. Hooray for Tech Support! Automatically Appended Next Post:  Inevitable_Faith wrote:DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.
Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"
So then you have what 9 units that are reserved and never score?
You're going to lose to MSU obsec.
Not much chance of you ever winning maelstrom either.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Inevitable_Faith wrote:DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.
Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"
It is just with a bunch of friends Ive been playing with for awhile. We like to play for giggles, and sometimes we will throw in a list to rustle some jimmies. so me of us will use a competitive list, others would just make a fluff list. Spamming the fliers in my group wouldnt make me TFG...We all have anti fliers/fliers we use for the most part. Thank you very much.
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Post by: blaktoof
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
I believe there is an apoc formation for razorwings that gives them flyby attacks. Other than that there currently aren't any.
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Post by: Solar Shock
This was your friends major tactical error above all by the sounds of it. What Mush is trying to point out is, why would an aggressive, slow force (grotesquerie and flyers - so many blasts! they want you huddled) want evenly spaced objectives. Had mush been playing he would have crowded them as much as possible, as close as possible and around terrain if he could. That way, even if it ended up you had 6 objectives in your deployment with objec secure units it wouldn't have mattered. It would have forced you to decide; Do I stay put on the objectives to score VP or do I move away from the objectives to play aggressively. Then when his grots came in from reserves, if you had remained on your objectives it wouldn't have mattered, objsec or not, your entire army more than likely couldn't wipe him out in one turn and his second turn would have seen him charge as many units as possible; and you can be certain there wouldn't be much left on those objectives after that. Had you moved away he can now DS in and control them all, forcing you to come to him; something else that would have ended badly for any units trying to secure a objective. The point being the spread out objectives meant the DE's fragile forces had to be spread thin, then when the grots arrived you could simply move away, as its not like you needed to stay near any particular objective, as they were all spread out. This massively hampered the DE list, you had mobility and objsec - something great for spread out objectives. He had blasts and grot bombs as his main hammer - the anvil should have been the crowded objectives. Like you said, he had no anvil, not because he had no units acting as an anvil, but because he had spread the anvil evenly across the table. Point your friend to some of Mush's batreps, i think he'd find it very insightful. Also if you played again the same game, with crowded objectives, I think you'd be in for a real struggle, you'd be forced to fight the grots and forced to crowd for the flyers missiles. Not saying you didn't play well, but your friend really gave himself a difficult challenge
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Post by: zerosignal
You know you roll and choose table edges after placing objectives? So how can you bunch up more than 3? (I think there might also be a rule for how close to other objectives you can place?)
Plus you want to be on objectives to get cards for Contact Lost?
I don't see your reasoning here.
Edit after some more thought - I agree he spread himself too thin, and he did realise after the game he should have gone for my other flank with the grot blob. By the time the grots reached my units though I was so far ahead it didn't matter; he could only have won by tabling me and my units had mobility (rhinos, bikes) or AV14 (land raider with techmarine support) to move away or ignore. I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
So Im thinking about using the formation that has the Shadowseer,death jester and solitiare.... Would that be good? giving infiltrate to the solitaire seems like a solid upgrade for him, and have the shadowseer provide some support , aas weel as the DJ.
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Post by: Solar Shock
zerosignal wrote:You know you roll and choose table edges after placing objectives? So how can you bunch up more than 3? (I think there might also be a rule for how close to other objectives you can place?) Plus you want to be on objectives to get cards for Contact Lost? I don't see your reasoning here. Edit after some more thought - I agree he spread himself too thin, and he did realise after the game he should have gone for my other flank with the grot blob. By the time the grots reached my units though I was so far ahead it didn't matter; he could only have won by tabling me and my units had mobility (rhinos, bikes) or AV14 (land raider with techmarine support) to move away or ignore. I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.
Yes, but if the objectives are on your side, he will just DS onto them and eat your units, if they are on his, he'll more than likely start his grots on them already. Objectives must be 6" apart, so it goes like this; you place 1, he places 1: 6" away from that, you place one (could be anywhere - including far away), he places another 6" inch from the first, then you place another, he places his 3rd and final completing the square with your first 1 and all three of his. Thats 4 together minimum, if you place your other two close thats 4-6 in close proximity. a 10 man grot bomb has a pretty large foot print. His list includes 2 flyers who do nothing for objectives and a grot bomb thats almost 1/3 his army, he should be playing to its strengths, the ability to obliterate crowded targets with missiles and a 10 man unit that has 30 wounds with FNP and IWND. Think of it this way; what would you have done had he had 4 objectives on his side in a 6x6" square that had that grot unit sat spread covering pretty much all four? I highly doubt you'd have been moving into go 'secure' them and get cards? you'd have sat on 2 and hoped to beat the 4? See in your game, you had no need to go to his objectives, you had 3 on your side, you had mobility and objsec. You could have simply sat there, his 2 min squads of troops weren't likely to hold an objective long. Admittedly, mush uses only grots and talos ( atm), in 1250 pt games, but he has yet to lose any game and has gone against serpent spam, Knight lance and some other tough lists. Secondly yes the game type contact lost does alter the tactics, but in reality his list is centred around the grots and flyers, both who excel at mulching tightly knitted units. Grots certainly dont want to have to move much and flyers cant score, why would he want to be spread out? also, wracks in the scalpel squadron have at most like 2 guns, they too don't want to be chasing units about. You could simply move and shoot, he could simply move, ofc in a spreadout objective game he was going to be at a disadvantage. The grot bomb is a lot of points, but its not meant to be chasing bikes or vehicles it cant hurt from one objective to another, its supposed to be sat in the key location eating anything that dares come close.You played your list in that setup exactly as you should have, you secured your 3, then quickly removed his scoring units, then when his big bad slow unit arrived you spread out and capped the objectives, by that point a slow CC unit is pretty much screwed, at most it could probably get from one objective to another each of his turns, you mentioned you got ascendancy and supremcy, pointing out that at some point you probably covered nearly all the objectives. His 400 pt unit is now limited to getting to one objective at a time, instead of sitting on 4 and forcing you to come to him. You played to your strengths and his weaknesses, while he gave himself a hard time. Admittedly his scalpel whiffing first blood didn't help him at all, but overall he should have forced your mobile army to stay still by putting all the objectives together.
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Post by: sweetbacon
zerosignal wrote:
I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.
What the Grots "do" is murder practically everything they get their hands on and control/deny territory. But they have to be positioned correctly to be effective. If your opponent studies Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, particularly with regards to objective placement, you may gain a newfound respect for these musclebound point sinks in your next game against him.
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Post by: Inevitable_Faith
Inevitable_Faith wrote:DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok so are there any formations out there for Razorwings and voidbombers? I have a nice collection of them....I wanted to use them in a fun game.
There are no formations of razorwings and voidravens that I know of but if you take the (and correct me if I'm wrong) realspace raiders detachment you get 6 fast attack choices. I roughed it out and I think you can fit 6 razorwing fighters in a 1000 point list by taking a naked archon, two troops of naked kabalite warriors and then the 6 razorwings, I think I even gave them all dark lance upgrades. Since void ravens are a heavy support you could do a 2000 point battle with 6 razorwings, 3 voidravens and then fill out your hq and troops as desired, might even have some points leftover for something too, sorry my dex isn't near me atm.
Edit: I see you noted "fun game" take my suggestion with a grain of salt because I don't know what your players are like over there but spamming that many flyers in my group would get me some stares, they'd all agree to play it once for giggles, find out it sucks not being able to shoot at anything half the game and only ever hit on 6s anyways then they'd never play me using that list ever. TLDR, this list may not fit the bill of "fun"
So then you have what 9 units that are reserved and never score?
You're going to lose to MSU obsec.
Not much chance of you ever winning maelstrom either.
Bringing that many fliers could be fun even if it is ineffective, you'd have to go for tabling your opponent I think if you even want to consider winning with it. But that was not the intention of my post anyways, I was merely trying to suggest some crazy idea you can pull off with a DE list because a detachment allows for it without going unbound.
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Post by: Mushkilla
Solar Shock wrote:Yes, but if the objectives are on your side, he will just DS onto them and eat your units, if they are on his, he'll more than likely start his grots on them already. Objectives must be 6" apart, so it goes like this;
you place 1, he places 1: 6" away from that, you place one (could be anywhere - including far away), he places another 6" inch from the first, then you place another, he places his 3rd and final completing the square with your first 1 and all three of his. Thats 4 together minimum, if you place your other two close thats 4-6 in close proximity. a 10 man grot bomb has a pretty large foot print. His list includes 2 flyers who do nothing for objectives and a grot bomb thats almost 1/3 his army, he should be playing to its strengths, the ability to obliterate crowded targets with missiles and a 10 man unit that has 30 wounds with FNP and IWND.
Think of it this way; what would you have done had he had 4 objectives on his side in a 6x6" square that had that grot unit sat spread covering pretty much all four? I highly doubt you'd have been moving into go 'secure' them and get cards? you'd have sat on 2 and hoped to beat the 4? See in your game, you had no need to go to his objectives, you had 3 on your side, you had mobility and objsec. You could have simply sat there, his 2 min squads of troops weren't likely to hold an objective long.
Admittedly, mush uses only grots and talos ( atm), in 1250 pt games, but he has yet to lose any game and has gone against serpent spam, Knight lance and some other tough lists. Secondly yes the game type contact lost does alter the tactics, but in reality his list is centred around the grots and flyers, both who excel at mulching tightly knitted units. Grots certainly dont want to have to move much and flyers cant score, why would he want to be spread out? also, wracks in the scalpel squadron have at most like 2 guns, they too don't want to be chasing units about. You could simply move and shoot, he could simply move, ofc in a spreadout objective game he was going to be at a disadvantage.
The grot bomb is a lot of points, but its not meant to be chasing bikes or vehicles it cant hurt from one objective to another, its supposed to be sat in the key location eating anything that dares come close.You played your list in that setup exactly as you should have, you secured your 3, then quickly removed his scoring units, then when his big bad slow unit arrived you spread out and capped the objectives, by that point a slow CC unit is pretty much screwed, at most it could probably get from one objective to another each of his turns, you mentioned you got ascendancy and supremcy, pointing out that at some point you probably covered nearly all the objectives. His 400 pt unit is now limited to getting to one objective at a time, instead of sitting on 4 and forcing you to come to him. You played to your strengths and his weaknesses, while he gave himself a hard time. Admittedly his scalpel whiffing first blood didn't help him at all, but overall he should have forced your mobile army to stay still by putting all the objectives together.
This is an excellent explanation of how to get the most out of large units of grotesques, and is the strategy I try to stick to with my current list. The only clarification is that objectives markers need to be placed 12" away from each other, however when you take into account that each objective has a 3" radius score zone around them then they are effectively 6" away from each other for the purpose of scoring either objective.
To illustrate Solar Shock explanation, below is an example from a game with 6 objective markers, with my opponent placing the odd numbered objectives and me placing the even numbered objectives. The green circles represent the 3" radius score zones:
The objectives 1, 2, 4 and 6 form a diamond around a piece of terrain. If the grotesques control that diamond (which they can thanks to no scatter deep strike and their resilience) the Dark Eldar player controls 66% of the objectives in the game. Any objective secure unit that want to score/contest them, leaves themselves well within charge range. This is how you force your opponent to come to you. It's a very powerful concept.
Another useful concept against objective secure is blocking. It doesn't matter if a unit is objective secure if it can't get within 3" of the objective. In the example bellow the Imperial Knights can't contest objectives 2 and 3 because they can't get within 3" of the objective. If they were objective secure they wouldn't be able to score the objectives for the same reason:
sweetbacon wrote:zerosignal wrote:
I just think the grots are a bad points sink - too slow for what they do.
What the Grots "do" is murder practically everything they get their hands on and control/deny territory. But they have to be positioned correctly to be effective. If your opponent studies Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, particularly with regards to objective placement, you may gain a newfound respect for these musclebound point sinks in your next game against him.
Agreed, grotesques are all about territory control and shouldn't be trying to chase things down. Here are the links to the reports if your friend is interested:
BR1: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Necrons - 1250pts
BR2: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Serpent Spam - 1250pts
BR3: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Grey Knights - 1250pts
BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Hope that helps. 
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Post by: Solar Shock
Ahh yes sorry, 12" from central points, poorly worded on my behalf. Mush you got any more games coming up soon? eagerly awaiting your next Batrep, almost finished converting up my grots and im literally drooling at all the butching they are gona do
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Post by: Mushkilla
Solar Shock wrote:Mush you got any more games coming up soon? eagerly awaiting your next Batrep, almost finished converting up my grots and im literally drooling at all the butching they are gona do
Got a game against white scars biker list this coming weekend. Was hoping for tau originally.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Wait...can one unit control multiple objectives in this edition?
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Post by: Mushkilla
Jimsolo wrote:Wait...can one unit control multiple objectives in this edition?
Nope only one at a time, but you choose which. With tactical objective cards and a hand of three you at most need to score three in a turn, aside from cards like dominion.
You can however contest multiple objectives with one unit. Area control with grotesques is as much about preventing your opponent from scoring objectives with non obsec units and/or making your opponent sacrifice obsec units to score objectives. The former reduces your opponents card draw the latter allows you to score destroy X cards.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.
If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.
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Post by: zerosignal
Thanks very much for the explanations and strategy guys, this is really interesting stuff. I haven't been playing long so all of these points are very useful. I will try and make use of what you've taught me here in my next few games, and discuss it with my DE opponent too
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Post by: Solar Shock
HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.
If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.
Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either
zerosignal wrote:Thanks very much for the explanations and strategy guys, this is really interesting stuff. I haven't been playing long so all of these points are very useful. I will try and make use of what you've taught me here in my next few games, and discuss it with my DE opponent too
No worries Zero, glad you enjoyed the game and clearly you played your list well, seems its your friend you needs a little advice hopefully he'll give you a good run for your money next time.
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Post by: sweetbacon
Solar Shock wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.
If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.
Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either
Yeah, I concur with Solar's statement. Just off the top of my head, I can't think of any possible Obsec (troop) unit I would want within 12 inches of a large squad of Grotesques. Maybe, mayyyyyybe, a Fearless 50 man IG blob could hold out for a few turns if the Grots roll low on Rampage.
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Post by: winterman
sweetbacon wrote:Solar Shock wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.
If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.
Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either
Yeah, I concur with Solar's statement. Just off the top of my head, I can't think of any possible Obsec (troop) unit I would want within 12 inches of a large squad of Grotesques. Maybe, mayyyyyybe, a Fearless 50 man IG blob could hold out for a few turns if the Grots roll low on Rampage.
Depends on the mission.
Endless war? I don't mind my units being close if the game ends. Whittle down the grots size mid game and/or assault to pull them away from middle of diamond late game, then jump objectives end game.
For maelstrom (which is all the batreps so far for mush) then its more tricky since you can't use end game trickery, but the same idea holds. You just have to sacrifice if points are at stake.
Also not all obsec is created equal. I'd assume he's talking about the really good obsec stuff like eldar bikes and/or MSU obsec . If its deck chair style obsec then not as much cause for alarm.
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Post by: KiloFiX
Got wrecked by a Soul Grinder today.
Was playing only Coven, 1K.
Only thing that could touch that front AV13 was a single Talos and it died in the second round of Assault after only managing to put 2 wounds on the SG. After that didn't have anything else effective.
Planning to start running more Talos, even in smaller games from now on.
Just something to think about.
Not sure if even Grots would do well against Regular AV12 Dreads.
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Post by: Frozocrone
You could take an Abberation with the Scissorhands? For Rending I think? That would hopefully get through AV12 and maybe immobilise at which point you're laughing since all your S5 attacks go into rear armour of 10
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Solar Shock wrote:HawaiiMatt wrote:What I don't understand about the area control diamond is opponents lack of response with MSU scoring.
If the Grotesque blob contests 3 or 4 objectives, an opponent with objective secure could move scoring units opposite the objective(s). With no shooting, you have to shift the Grotesques off out of the sweet spot to remove the objective secure.
It just seems like a skilled opponent would force you out of the diamond, while shooting up the rest of your army.
Hmm Matt could you clarify? what do you mean by moving to opposite side? you mean like putting an objsec on one diamond point? forcing the grots to come that way? you'd be sacrificing that objsec unit for sure, as the grots would quickly butcher them up. Luckily for mush the 'rest of his army' is 4 talos, who generally aren't going anywhere either
Grots are in the center of the diamond, spread out to be within 3" of 3 objectives.
I'd gladly drop combat squaded marines 3" on the other side of those objectives. To move at one group, you move away from the other two/three.
I think MSU objective secure would give the diamond pattern Grot-star a rough going.
-Matt
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Post by: sweetbacon
 KiloFiX wrote:Got wrecked by a Soul Grinder today.
Was playing only Coven, 1K.
Only thing that could touch that front AV13 was a single Talos and it died in the second round of Assault after only managing to put 2 wounds on the SG. After that didn't have anything else effective.
Planning to start running more Talos, even in smaller games from now on.
Just something to think about.
Not sure if even Grots would do well against Regular AV12 Dreads.
Yeah, I have learned to keep Grots away from Dreads and any CC Walkers at all costs. Outside of GK with Force and IK's, it is the one unit that can completely nullify Grots in CC as they can't hurt it unless they get Str 6 or Rending with a Scissorhand. And even then you're only glancing it on sixes. Squads of 2-3 Talos (or a Formation) with AT tail weapons are the only Coven unit you should engage Dread-equivalents with. Bringing multiple is also key, as you found out, because one Talos will probably die before it can take out the Walker.
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Post by: Mushkilla
 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Grots are in the center of the diamond, spread out to be within 3" of 3 objectives.
I'd gladly drop combat squaded marines 3" on the other side of those objectives. To move at one group, you move away from the other two/three.
I think MSU objective secure would give the diamond pattern Grot-star a rough going.
-Matt
Depends.
If you send one objective secure squad to contest/score an objective. Then it will score its secure objective X card at the end of its turn without me being able to do anything. Then it comes down to what I tactical objectives I have on my turn and if first blood has been scored or not. If I have destroy X , secure X (for the objective they are on) or first blood hasn't been scored then its worthwhile being dragged out of position and assault the objective secure unit.
If you send multiple units to secure multiple objectives at the same time then multi charge would be my response (depending on the size of the grotesque unit) as this prevents the core of the grot unit being pulled out of position and allows them to take out multiple units.
Finally in the case of my list I have redundancy, as I have two large units of grotesques that can support each other. They are not in a vacuum either as the four talos in the list are tailored for taking out chaff and msu object secure with their splinter cannons.
The game will play differently against MSU objective secure, no doubt about it. But my experience with this list so far makes me doubt that it will be the "rough going" you are making it out to be. Of course, as with all theoryhammer, I might be completely wrong in practice. 
Hope that helps explain my reasoning, I'm sure I'll get some games in against msu and post the reports soon enough and I'll be looking forward to your analysis/feedback regardless of the outcome. Cheers!
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
I haven't seen the Grot star in action, but I have seen death stars land in a diamond.
A buddy of mine runs a single cad of orks, with 6 trukk 'ard boyz, 3 MANz in trukks and 6 more vehicles as fast/heavies.
When his opponent dropped into the center of the diamond, he unloaded orks all around it. The combi charge really spread the death star thin, and the multiple 'ard boy nobz were able to do enough damage to not break.
I'm not saying you're doomed, but well played MSU had no trouble with the death star parked in the diamond.
-Matt
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Post by: KiloFiX
The other problem I've had when playing Coven and using the diamond Objective placement is when my opponent comes in at the last moment with ObSec Troops.
That isn't to say the diamond Objective placement isn't effective, but there are certain situations that require moving out of it.
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Post by: vipoid
When I first read that, I thought there was some sort of Ork death-star I wasn't aware of.
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Post by: Solar Shock
 vipoid wrote:
When I first read that, I thought there was some sort of Ork death-star I wasn't aware of.
Max grot unit and as many warbosses as you can fit in? 1 with DLS, 1 with Big Boss Pole, 1 with da head'wompa, then throw in 3 meks for challenges? Majority T3? hahahahahaha oh dear. Maybe a Big Mek with MFF too? for that 4++ invun, then a painboy.
That could be hilarious
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Post by: Frozocrone
Thoughts on which list to take to a tournament I'm going to soon? Missions would be Relic and Emperor's Will.
List one: Null Deployment
List 2: Firebase Support Cadre
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Post by: lustigjh
 Frozocrone wrote:Obviously Null Deployment is Null Deployment but Skyfire is a bit of an issue. I'm also undecided on whether to go CAD or RSR with the amount of Reavers I have.
I'd go RSR since it's unlikely your two venoms of warriors are going to want to sit on objectives and fight for them
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.
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Post by: KiloFiX
All 6 of my Venom Wrack groups have an Ossefactor.
Single shot but almost guaranteed to Wound, and then does another D6.
I like it better than the Liquifier.
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Post by: vipoid
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.
It's pretty good - the main issue is the Wracks themselves. They're really not cut out to be Elite units, and can't offer any ranged weapons to support the ossefactor.
So do I.
But, then again, if you offered me the choice between a liquifier gun and a pinecone rammed up my arse, I'd still need a while to decide.
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Post by: sweetbacon
vipoid wrote:DaKKaLAnce wrote:Has anyone used the new wrack weapon? Ossicfactor(sorry dont know how to spell it). I havent gotten the new kit yet, But really want to use that new weapon.
It's pretty good - the main issue is the Wracks themselves. They're really not cut out to be Elite units, and can't offer any ranged weapons to support the ossefactor.
So do I.
But, then again, if you offered me the choice between a liquifier gun and a pinecone rammed up my arse, I'd still need a while to decide.
Ha! Nicely done Vipoid. I have the same opinion of the Liquifier. I would argue it is the most baffling nerf in all of 7th edition.
As for the Ossefactor, the only problem with it is that Wrack units can only take one. If each Wrack could pay to take one, then I think Wracks would actually be useful. Pricey, but useful.
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Post by: Gamerely
Had my first real game with Dark Eldar last night. Played against my friend's Blood Angels. I don't think it could have gone any better than what it did. The first time I played him I used Space Wolves and it was pretty much a one sided beating. This time around I only lost my scourges and the talos. At 1500 points not losing a single warrior OR raider against that many shots and meltas is incredible. Those guys on the steering wheel need something to drink after all those clutch jinks. Also, killing mephiston in CC in the first round BEFORE he even got a chance to swing back? That was fantastic. Last time we played he killed about 20 grey hunters with just Mephiston and his unit.
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Post by: vipoid
sweetbacon wrote:
Ha! Nicely done Vipoid. I have the same opinion of the Liquifier. I would argue it is the most baffling nerf in all of 7th edition.
I think it's right up there with hellions losing an attack, and Archons losing all AP2.
sweetbacon wrote:
As for the Ossefactor, the only problem with it is that Wrack units can only take one. If each Wrack could pay to take one, then I think Wracks would actually be useful. Pricey, but useful.
I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:
- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them
- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.
As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.
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Post by: sweetbacon
vipoid wrote:
I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:
- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them
- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.
As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.
I agree with allowing the Acothyst and the Haemie to take one. That seems like the best option. What I don't understand about the Ossefactor is why even bother introducing it if only one model in a unit that not a lot of people take to begin with can purchase one? God forbid that Wracks actually do something semi-useful in the shooting phase.
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Post by: Jimsolo
sweetbacon wrote: vipoid wrote:
I don't think every Wrack needs to take one to make them useful. However, I would suggest:
- Allow Acothysts and Haemonculi to take them
- Allow Wracks to swap out their melee weapons for some sort of ranged weapon.
As it stands, the problem is that you're paying for most of the squad to just sit back and do nothing. I don't think they all need ossefactors - they just need some sort of ranged weapon. Hell, let them have cheap (i.e. appropriately costed) Hexrifles - then they might have enough shots to actually accomplish something.
I agree with allowing the Acothyst and the Haemie to take one. That seems like the best option. What I don't understand about the Ossefactor is why even bother introducing it if only one model in a unit that not a lot of people take to begin with can purchase one? God forbid that Wracks actually do something semi-useful in the shooting phase.
Not a lot of people use wracks? Virtually every list I'm seeing (or playing) uses a Scalpel Squadron, Scarlet Epicureans, or both. For 15 pts I think the ossie more than earns its biscuits.
The liquifier gun, in the other hand, is a bag of crap.
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Post by: sweetbacon
Scalpel Squadron, I'll grant you (although I'm not sure I've actually seen it earn First Blood). Our metas must be very different though, as I've never seen anybody run a Scarlet Epicurean in person so far. It seems like the Coven formations, other than the Scalpel Squadron, that people like are Dark Artisan, Grotesquerie, and Corpsethief.
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Post by: vipoid
sweetbacon wrote:I agree with allowing the Acothyst and the Haemie to take one. That seems like the best option. What I don't understand about the Ossefactor is why even bother introducing it if only one model in a unit that not a lot of people take to begin with can purchase one? God forbid that Wracks actually do something semi-useful in the shooting phase.
Well quite.
Jimsolo wrote:
Not a lot of people use wracks? Virtually every list I'm seeing (or playing) uses a Scalpel Squadron, Scarlet Epicureans, or both.
Really?
I've seen virtually no lists with Scarlet Epicureans, and most of the ones with Scalpel Squadrons use them for a null-deployment, rather than for the wracks themselves.
Jimsolo wrote:For 15 pts I think the ossie more than earns its biscuits.
I agree. The problem is the 50pts of wracks you have to take to access it - 4/5 of which will be sitting, picking their noses (somehow), whilst the 5th member fires the ossefactor.
I'm sure you could make some kind of lightbulb-esque joke out of that. "How many Wracks does it take to fire an ossefactor? Five. One to actually fire it, two to torture innocents, one to get their haemonculus a cup of blood and one who tries to pick his nose through his mask."
sweetbacon wrote:Scalpel Squadron, I'll grant you (although I'm not sure I've actually seen it earn First Blood). Our metas must be very different though, as I've never seen anybody run a Scarlet Epicurean in person so far. It seems like the Coven formations, other than the Scalpel Squadron, that people like are Dark Artisan, Grotesquerie, and Corpsethief.
This is what I've seen as well.
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Post by: Alcibiades
Well not having actually played Dark Eldar , it however seems to me that, more than for most other units, the Wracks serve as ablative wounds for the special weapon(s) and/or Acothyst that do most of the actual damage.
Ossefactors are excellent weapons. It is actually a 65-point weapon defended by 4 ablative wounds. The other Wracks aren't "sitting around doing nothing"; they're sitting around being wounds.
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Post by: rollawaythestone
I've been playing some games against a local Dark Eldar player. I've been getting my butt kicked by Raiders full of Warriors with Splinter Racks and Nightshields. They have been blowing my Flying Tyrants out of the sky. With a 3+ Jink they are incredibly durable to my Tyrant's fire (even with E-grubs) and their shooting suffers no ill effects from Jinking. It seems like an incredibly powerful unit - permanent 3+ cover with tons of twin-linked poison shooting. I suppose this loadout isn't more popular because Wave Serpents would shred this unit, but it seems really powerful to me. What are your thoughts? Any strategic advice for facing these as Tyranids?
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Post by: vipoid
Alcibiades wrote:Well not having actually played Dark Eldar , it however seems to me that, more than for most other units, the Wracks serve as ablative wounds for the special weapon(s) and/or Acothyst that do most of the actual damage.
Thing is, I can think of Warriors as ablative wounds for my Blaster. The difference is that they're cheaper and still have guns to fire when they're not being shot at.
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Post by: SarisKhan
rollawaythestone wrote:I've been playing some games against a local Dark Eldar player. I've been getting my butt kicked by Raiders full of Warriors with Splinter Racks and Nightshields. They have been blowing my Flying Tyrants out of the sky. With a 3+ Jink they are incredibly durable to my Tyrant's fire (even with E-grubs) and their shooting suffers no ill effects from Jinking. It seems like an incredibly powerful unit - permanent 3+ cover with tons of twin-linked poison shooting. I suppose this loadout isn't more popular because Wave Serpents would shred this unit, but it seems really powerful to me. What are your thoughts? Any strategic advice for facing these as Tyranids?
Gunboat Raiders are the core of my army. Eldar seldom appear in my local meta and I've yet to meet any on a battlefield, fortunately.
Hive Guards are good against them. Position the Guards behind BLoS cover and fire those S8 shots with Ignores Cover. They're pretty cheap, too.
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Post by: pesce5279
Your hive tyrants should be smashing those gunboats with their Egrub flamers. The boats get no jink saves from flamers and the guys inside are taking D6 S5? (not sure what the str is on the Egrubs) hits.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
The flamer has a 9" range, He can easily avod it and shoot him with lots of twin link shots.
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Post by: SarisKhan
DaKKaLAnce wrote:The flamer has a 9" range, He can easily avod it and shoot him with lots of twin link shots.
Yes, that's what I've learnt to do after some unpleasant experiences.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
I always wait for my Nid friend to make a move first with his flying circus of MC. Just make sure you are far enough from the distance that needed for him to hit you with Flamers.
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Post by: Red Corsair
rollawaythestone wrote:I've been playing some games against a local Dark Eldar player. I've been getting my butt kicked by Raiders full of Warriors with Splinter Racks and Nightshields. They have been blowing my Flying Tyrants out of the sky. With a 3+ Jink they are incredibly durable to my Tyrant's fire (even with E-grubs) and their shooting suffers no ill effects from Jinking. It seems like an incredibly powerful unit - permanent 3+ cover with tons of twin-linked poison shooting. I suppose this loadout isn't more popular because Wave Serpents would shred this unit, but it seems really powerful to me. What are your thoughts? Any strategic advice for facing these as Tyranids?
Wait...seriously? Flyrants have access to E-grubs, a heavy flamer with haywire to boot. So it gets an auto S5 hit PLUS a free haywire hit, both ignoring that jink save PLUS it does a D6 s5 no save wounds to the warriors. I can't tell you the number of times my brother has managed to do 2 HP to my raider AND kneecap the occupants, it gets worse with acid spray and drool canons that thanks to torrent can hit multiple hulls if you get bunched up. Automatically Appended Next Post: DaKKaLAnce wrote:The flamer has a 9" range, He can easily avod it and shoot him with lots of twin link shots.
Your exaggerating greatly. Its 24" between deployment zones, indecently that's how far a flyrant swoops lol, so each one can burn 9" into that DZ. You can hid a raider or two but unless you hug the edge of your table end to end somethings getting fethed up. Your also deployed like crap to impact any other nid models and your still fishing for snap shots. Even if it takes two turns who cares, turn one you jink any lace shots and hopefully you own a malenthrope making it a 2+ save but no templates next turn you burn them boats.
Best defense against nids are coven units.
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Post by: rollawaythestone
 Red Corsair wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:I've been playing some games against a local Dark Eldar player. I've been getting my butt kicked by Raiders full of Warriors with Splinter Racks and Nightshields. They have been blowing my Flying Tyrants out of the sky. With a 3+ Jink they are incredibly durable to my Tyrant's fire (even with E-grubs) and their shooting suffers no ill effects from Jinking. It seems like an incredibly powerful unit - permanent 3+ cover with tons of twin-linked poison shooting. I suppose this loadout isn't more popular because Wave Serpents would shred this unit, but it seems really powerful to me. What are your thoughts? Any strategic advice for facing these as Tyranids?
Wait...seriously? Flyrants have access to E-grubs, a heavy flamer with haywire to boot. So it gets an auto S5 hit PLUS a free haywire hit, both ignoring that jink save PLUS it does a D6 s5 no save wounds to the warriors. I can't tell you the number of times my brother has managed to do 2 HP to my raider AND kneecap the occupants, it gets worse with acid spray and drool canons that thanks to torrent can hit multiple hulls if you get bunched up.
Yeah, seriously. Chances are the E-grubs are going to cause 1 Glance. Then d6 to the occupants, but from turn 2 on they get a Feel No Pain against those wounds. With a 3+ Jink the 6 Devourer shots is tough to land blows. It's really tough for a Flyrant to down a Raider (even with E-grubs) and not get blown out of the sky in return. Two Flyrants tag teaming a Raider will work, but it's not easy. Particularly if the Raiders get the drop on the Flyrants. Although I had some abysmal rolls, I flew two Flyrants out of reserve and had them tag team a pair of raiders with their E-grubs and Devourers and didn't do more than 2 glances and maybe ~4 dead Warriors. The following turn the two Raiders downed both Flyrants.
It's a really strong unit and after that game I am totally afraid of them.
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Post by: Mushkilla
On another note, one of my 40k heroes (Fritz) has posted a video on youtube describing the tactics illustrated and discussed in The Repugnant Ramblers battle reports regarding diamond/triangle objective placement. Good to see it being promoted.
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Post by: vipoid
Red Corsair wrote: it gets worse with acid spray and drool canons that thanks to torrent can hit multiple hulls if you get bunched up.
I agree with everything else you've said, but this is an important point - a flamer has to be positioned to cover as much of the vehicle as possible. This actually makes it quite difficult for torrent flamers to hit multiple vehicles, as the template has to be positioned along the length of the raider.
I just thought I'd mention this as it's a rule many people seem to miss.
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Post by: Solar Shock
vipoid wrote: Red Corsair wrote: it gets worse with acid spray and drool canons that thanks to torrent can hit multiple hulls if you get bunched up.
I agree with everything else you've said, but this is an important point - a flamer has to be positioned to cover as much of the vehicle as possible. This actually makes it quite difficult for torrent flamers to hit multiple vehicles, as the template has to be positioned along the length of the raider.
I just thought I'd mention this as it's a rule many people seem to miss.
I didn't think this was true?^^
I was under the understanding that the flamer rules (don't have my BRB on me) have to hit as many models in a unit as possible - or something along those lines, and thus it could be positioned to hit 2 vehicles pretty easily, as once you have a hit on a vehicle with a template you can't score any more hits on that vehicle with the same template.
Could you clear that up for me vipoid?
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Post by: vipoid
Against infantry, it has to be positioned to hit as many models as possible in the target unit.
Against vehicles, the template has to be positioned to cover as much of the target-vehicle's hull as possible.
I don't have a rulebook handy, but I *think* both are under the rules for template weapons. They're definitely on the same page.
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Post by: Solar Shock
vipoid wrote:
Against vehicles, the template has to be positioned to cover as much of the target-vehicle's hull as possible.
ah that definitely rings a bell. Pretty sure that is the wording, which does indeed seem to make it difficult to get multiple.
I think the argument was;
If you have a dude with a flamer and two vehicles in front of him (say two raiders sideways), you could aim for the furthest away, thus placing the template so that the larger end is covering the furthest away while the narrow end passes across the closest, resulting in you hitting both; while still adhering to the rule of; the template has to be positioned to cover as much of the target-vehicle's hull as possible.
But obviously that in itself has its own limitations;
IE you could then only assault the furthest away vehicle, which now might be difficult for BLOS etc... Only really works if the two vehicles are extremely close and you have a certain position (in most cases you require some part of the secondary targets hull to cross the narrow end of the flamer)
But thanks for the clarification vipoid
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Post by: vipoid
No worries.
It's actually more of a pain for Torrent Flamers - since they will almost always have the 'freedom' to position the template lengthways over the raider (thus preventing them from hitting any other targets).
There are ways around this - like making sure that the target vehicle is just barely within the flamer's range (so you can hit a closer one, as you describe), but is requires careful positioning.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yea my brother is a great player and he makes that sort of trick without much effort, i mean premeasuring is a thing now. Anyway the bigger point was that it is not easy to counter flyrants with splinter boats, usually by the time they can rapid fire a huge chunk have been "no escaped" lol. Generally the best I get are 10-12 shots twin linked (10 early game from range then about the same after my squads been neutered but can rapid fire) thats about 3 hits for 1.5 wounds and .5 failed saves.... yea that hardly will be killing a flyrant any time soon.
Also my brother still uses hive guard, which despite worse BS can reliably wreck a skimmer a turn. I know they have limited range, but basically all these tools make it so we don't want to use our best trait, mobility. If you play the range game, the bug player is dominating the table.
I should state my brother has been using malenthropes which are FW, and I know not everyone uses FW. Those things are crazy good and there is no efficient way to kill them since we don't ignore cover.
That said, my coven force can literally walk through his whole army unless he tailors for it with boneswords/whips and swarmy, which he will admit is not a reasonable list that he'd normally take and wouldn't do it.
The no escape rule makes perfect sense fluff wise but it is seriously a crippling rule for our transports against certain foes.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Red Corsair wrote:
The no escape rule makes perfect sense fluff wise but it is seriously a crippling rule for our transports against certain foes.
Well, they needed to balance the over-whelming advantage of open topped transports as an assault platform... man it's hard to type while laughing sarcastically.
-Matt
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Post by: vipoid
I think what annoys me even more is that they called the rule "no escape".
What do you mean "no escape"? My vehicle doesn't even have a roof. 
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Post by: Solar Shock
vipoid wrote:I think what annoys me even more is that they called the rule "no escape".
What do you mean "no escape"? My vehicle doesn't even have a roof.
This^^
A vehicle with an 'ard case, is goin to be way more brutal under flame attacks, i mean you literally can't get out and the case is going to act like an oven I mean you could literally roast the dudes inside simply by flaming the outside! roast em like chicken
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Post by: Red Corsair
HawaiiMatt wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
The no escape rule makes perfect sense fluff wise but it is seriously a crippling rule for our transports against certain foes.
Well, they needed to balance the over-whelming advantage of open topped transports as an assault platform... man it's hard to type while laughing sarcastically.
-Matt
Thanks for making me spew my coffee
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Post by: vipoid
Solar Shock wrote: vipoid wrote:I think what annoys me even more is that they called the rule "no escape".
What do you mean "no escape"? My vehicle doesn't even have a roof.
This^^
A vehicle with an 'ard case, is goin to be way more brutal under flame attacks, i mean you literally can't get out and the case is going to act like an oven I mean you could literally roast the dudes inside simply by flaming the outside! roast em like chicken
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. And, god help those marines if you get the flamer into a fire-point (Hah!).
On another topic, does anyone have any thoughts on anti-skitarri tactics?
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Post by: Red Corsair
I honestly think we will match them quite well, they are basically veteran guardsmen in carapace with no transports, nothing we can't manage. I think our fliers will absolutely devastate them if they aren't careful with spacing.
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Post by: mercury14
My region's annual GT is coming up in a couple weeks and I plan on playing DE with Harlequins. I'm looking at running three units of Trueborn + Venoms with 3-4 blasters each and then pressuring my opponent with Reavers, Skyweavers, and Wyches to tackle MCs.
I recently painted up 10 Scourges though and I've never used them before... And I'm hearing that people have had success with them using HW blasters over Trueborn. Any thoughts on this in my draft list?
Dark Eldar CAD:
Lhamaean
- Venom
7x Wyches, Hekatrix, haywire, hydra
- Raider with DL, NS
7x Wyches, Hekatrix, haywire, hydra
- Raider with DL, NS
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster
- Venom
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster
- Venom
5x Trueborn, 4x Blaster
- Venom
6x Reavers, 2x HL, 2x Caltrops, Arena champion (Warlord?)
6x Reavers, 2x HL, 2x Caltrops
6x Reavers, 2x HL, 2x Caltrops
FAOLCHU'S BLADE
3x Skyweaver, 3x Zephyrblade, 3x HWC
3x Skyweaver, 3x Zephyrblade, 3x HWC
3x Skyweaver, 3x Zephyrblade, 3x HWC
Voidweaver, prismatic cannon
____
1848
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Post by: Ascalam
Putting together a 500 pt list for our local league.
No allies allowed, one source only.
Any suggestions for a fun list ?
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Post by: Solar Shock
500 pts? For fun i'd myself probably take a court heavy list. going with a sort of 'aristocracy evening entertainment' feel. Like a sporting event for the most powerful DE.
So grab some venoms fill a couple with some courts and then just bring some so warriors with blaster in venoms.
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Post by: Gamerely
At 1000 points, what would you suggest to take on a heldrake? I brought a Razorwing, but so far, every time I've brought it I've either missed or failed to even glance another flier with lances. And if I have to jink, I'm pretty much boned. But especially against a heldrake. Any suggestions? It'd be overly fantastic if ravagers had skyfire.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
 Gamerely wrote:At 1000 points, what would you suggest to take on a heldrake? I brought a Razorwing, but so far, every time I've brought it I've either missed or failed to even glance another flier with lances. And if I have to jink, I'm pretty much boned. But especially against a heldrake. Any suggestions? It'd be overly fantastic if ravagers had skyfire.
You could get the bomber instead to up the chances that you will pen. Against the drake. But the fighter is a lot more flexible. The helldrake is sadly one of those fliers we can't ignore since it is a torrent flamer that will instant kill out HQ's in the transports and not allow FnP for most of our units.
You could use 2 fliers if you are dedicated to stoping it. The sooner it is down, the better.
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Post by: vipoid
As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?
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Post by: Solar Shock
vipoid wrote:As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?
Hey Vip, was that confirmed then? as I saw the YMDC thread... but after so many pages I bailed out of that one Well my thoughts are;
Quantum only works until the first pen. However, DE in general have 2 AT styles. Single Lance shots/single High Str shots (blasters), or multiple haywire. The issue with lance shots is they are exactly what quantum wants, Low volume fire that can be negated (needing a 6 to drop it), whereas with increased volume you have a larger chance of dropping quantum and opening up the armour and allowing the rest of your shots to hit AV11.
To me it seems the answer has to be haywire, as quantum doesn't reduce its effectiveness. If lances main benefits (the lance rule) can't be used then imo they seem rather useless.
Thoughts?
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Post by: sweetbacon
vipoid wrote:As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?
Huh? When/where did this happen?
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Post by: lustigjh
Haywire from cover would definitely be my answer. You need to kill Ghost Arks fast to avoid more reanimations but also because you're getting lit up next turn by 20+ shots at that range
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Wait..The new quantum shielding ignores The lance special rule?!
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Solar Shock wrote: vipoid wrote:As a question, what are people's thoughts on dealing with Necron vehicles, now that Quantum Shielding gives immunity to lances?
Hey Vip, was that confirmed then? as I saw the YMDC thread... but after so many pages I bailed out of that one Well my thoughts are;
Quantum only works until the first pen. However, DE in general have 2 AT styles. Single Lance shots/single High Str shots (blasters), or multiple haywire.
Odd, I run 3 types of AT. Melta, Haywire and SMASH!
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.
So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.
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Post by: vipoid
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.
So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.
Except that the QS rule changed - so the AV is changed to 13, rather than getting +2 AV. The argument is that only one set modifier can apply and, since QS is a codex rule, it takes precedence over lance (which is a rulebook rule).
It might end up faqd the same way, but it hasn't been yet.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
vipoid wrote:DaKKaLAnce wrote:Ok I read the forum with the lance and quantum shielding. Just looks like the same arguement from the last necron codex...Which was shut down with an FAQ that ruled in favor of the lance weapon.
So sounds like the RAI is the lance still treats it at AV 12.
Except that the QS rule changed - so the AV is changed to 13, rather than getting +2 AV. The argument is that only one set modifier can apply and, since QS is a codex rule, it takes precedence over lance (which is a rulebook rule).
It might end up faqd the same way, but it hasn't been yet.
It is the same rule with different wording. It isa obivous that GW RAI it to be just 13 armour but not a solid 13 that cant not be ignored by lanced. Considering that GW has been trying to make the game more balanced, I dont see why they change the RAI from before. Just takes a little common sense.
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Post by: vipoid
RAI is subjective, unreliable and, frankly, irrelevant.
RAW is all that matters. And, right now, RAW seems to support QS ignoring lances. Perhaps it will be faqd the other way, but I'm not sure I'd want to rely on every opponent just accepting your RAI interpretation. Especially considering there are obviously a lot of posters on this site alone who think the exact opposite.
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Post by: Frozocrone
Simple, I use Haywire or Melta. I still use S8 Lance, but thats for 2W 2+ really
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Well Im not too worried about what people on the internet say....My group likes to use a little common sense and RAI. So this quantum shielding thing doesnt really effect me. Its just silly people will argue and bend rules just to get an advantage.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Everyone is talking about these Wild Jetbikes and Wraithknights, and i started to wonder how Dark Harlies can handle them.
Using the Scalpel Squadron to beta strike hard, would a Jetbike centric army be the perfect type of army to pull the fear bomb on?
Mirror of Minds can instantly kill a Wraith Knight, Garg Creature or not, and Psy Shriek, Phantasm Grenade Launchers and the Archangle of Pain all ignore armour and cover saves. The Jetbikes are also effected harshly by the Death Jester, who forces them to fall back 3D6 in the direction of my choosing, so hug the board edge at your own peril.
Would this kind of thing work?
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Post by: Alcibiades
RAI is not subjective. It exists in the minds of the designers (well OK so it's subjective from their POV ). It's the actual rule that they intended to create.
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Post by: vipoid
Alcibiades wrote:RAI is not subjective. It exists in the minds of the designers (well OK so it's subjective from their POV ). It's the actual rule that they intended to create.
But that's the thing - none of us are developers, so we have no idea what they intended.
If a non-developer is talking about RAI, then it is subjective because it's just what that person thinks or assumes the developers intended - which often flies in the face of what said developers actually wrote.
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Post by: Frozocrone
Just clear it with your opponent before the battle.
Roll off if in disagreement.
Back to DE tactics? What are the best weapons against Jetbikes and the new WK?
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Post by: vipoid
 Frozocrone wrote:
Back to DE tactics? What are the best weapons against Jetbikes and the new WK?
I'd suggest the foetal position.
It won't help, but it will save time.
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Post by: Vaeleria
For an mono Dark Eldar army I'd say..grenade launchers against the bikes as well as poison spam. Even Ravager with shadowcannons can put a serious dent in any biker unit.
For the WK, well, my previous answer to that thing was an Archoness with that 4+ Poison DS3 weapon and a harem of Lhamaen's putting out the hurt to anything idiotic enough to get to close to their raider.
Now however that won't work anymore, with them being Gargantuan. I guess mono DE will have to go back to Lance spam, wich wounds WK on 4+. Problem is just that Blaster are in great peril if they fire...if the WK doesn't die, then they get charged next turn.
But how is it with allies that are BBs?
If we go Harlies, Hero's path is my choice, not really that costy, with 2 Models in there a WK has to fear. The Shadowseer's ability to roll on Telepathy along with -2 LD is a threat, his fancy mindwar as well. Not to forget that he's a skilled fighter, adding him and the solitar in round 2 to finish a WK should work, as his attacks hit on 3's and he wounds on 2's, yeah, Fleshbane there, no poison. Only downside is that this allows Armorsaves and FNP, but well, to shred a single point it's worthwile.
Solitairs are perfect to pick up already grazed Knights, 6 on to hit and it's a wound, with Blitz we get amazing 12 attacks, that should be able to finish a Wk that has been crippled.
The Death Jester is the bike's mortal foe, forcing them to take a LD test with -2, as long as no character is in there it's measy 6, if failed run 3d6, off the board~ or into the arms of things they do not want to fight.
And even if they survive, next turn gather up and return, they're only firing snapshots that turn, so no hurt from that unit for a round.
Now for our Craftworld brethren, they have a nifty, sweet thing to answer to that 'thread'. If we go along with an allied detachment we get 1 HQ, Farseer for more Psy works, but also a crazy Autarch with Jetbike, Cloak and Shard of Anaris, we'll have to see if that thing remains and if the WK is a Character (if so, good, if not, drop that thought)
Smaller units of bikes on our sides with either Scatter Lasers or Shuriken Cannons work as well, 81 Points hunting 270, why not. Warp Spiders with their monofilament can put a dent into a WK, much more into Bikes, but on to my preferred way to deal with that:
Dark Reaper, vastly underestimated in the last codex, now they get a chance to shine, stuff 5 of those guys in a raider, granting them a mobile shooting platform with 3+ Jink.
They themselves IGNORE Jink...yes, ignore. Any biker unit out in the open is facing, in case of 5 Reapers, 8 Shots S5 DS3 Jink ignore on 3+'s to hit, as well as 3 of those hitting on 2's. And they have range.
Also, those guys can swiftly switch to blast 6 Rockets into an incoming WK, making them able to hurt and maybe repel the two main 'oh so op' units. Yes, they cost, but for that amount of firepower and that level of threat they pose it's quite alright....why can I see myself fielding 3 of those in the near future....
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Post by: vipoid
Really, the solution is to use as much of the new eldar book as possible, and accept that your own list is a little handicapped by having to include some Dark Eldar.
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Post by: Vaeleria
Not really, but I don't play mono Dark Eldar background wise from the start.
I wrote what I'd do if I played Mono DE, didn't I? Just the usual stuff, field as many lances as possible..
for a 1850 points list it's rather easy to gather 24 lances, and 91-121 poison shots, separated on units so that each is able to put a dent into enemy troops. I don't know where you see that as incapable of dealing with those 'threads'
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Post by: vipoid
 Vaeleria wrote:
I wrote what I'd do if I played Mono DE, didn't I? Just the usual stuff, field as many lances as possible..'
You're assumption is that this will be even remotely enough.
Vaeleria wrote:
for a 1850 points list it's rather easy to gather 24 lances, and 91-121 poison shots, separated on units so that each is able to put a dent into enemy troops. I don't know where you see that as incapable of dealing with those 'threads'
And how many scatter-laser jetbikes, wraithknights and wraithlords can the eldar player have at 1850?
I think you're either vastly overestimating our firepower, or vastly underestimating how powerful eldar's new firepower is. But then, you already did that in the other threads, so it's hardly surprising.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
80% of your 24''- 36'' range poison shots are going to be wiped out in a single round of shooting- the inverse is not true if the Dark Eldar get to go first.
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Post by: vipoid
 BlaxicanX wrote:80% of your 24''- 36'' range poison shots are going to be wiped out in a single round of shooting- the inverse is not true if the Dark Eldar get to go first.
This.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
You guys underestimate the power of a 3+ cover save...
Trying being alittle more positive, This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.
With the WK being the key threat (according to rumors) It might not be a bad idea to field a ravager or even a FW reaper.
The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW
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Post by: vipoid
No, we really don't.
1 jetbike squad = 40 S6 shots.
Against AV10 - 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 40 = ~4.4 Hull Points (with a ~50% chance to explode)
Against AV11 - 2/3 x 1/3 x 1/3 x 40 = ~3 Hull Points
Which of our AV10 vehicles have 6 Hull Points?
Which of our AV11 vehicles have 4 Hull Points?
Is the answer 'none'?
Furthermore, if you're getting this cover save by jinking, then even if you survive (by some miracle) then you've still crippled your ability to retaliate.
Then show me something to be positive about. Show me something that indicates the new Eldar book won't be about as well balanced as the world's fattest man sharing a sea-saw with a newly-hatched duckling.
Show me something that indicates we can compete against this new level of one-one-upmanship. And, when I say 'show me something', I don't just mean blind optimism.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.
Has it never occurred to you that some battles may not be winnable? The aforementioned blind optimism only gets you so far.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW
Even reaching the WK with Reavers seems like a dubious idea - since the new jetbikes will have no trouble blowing them off the table. And, even if you do get to him, your blaster is wounding on 4s and he gets a 5++ and FNP afterwards, and your Reavers' HoW hits are wounding on 6s in combat (which he again gets a 5++ and FNP against). I'm not seeing the threat.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
DaKKaLAnce wrote:You guys underestimate the power of a 3+ cover save...
Trying being alittle more positive, This is a thread to help DE with tactics, not give up and complain about how you guys cant win a game because you heard rumors.
With the WK being the key threat (according to rumors) It might not be a bad idea to field a ravager or even a FW reaper.
The reaver jet bikes will also be useful, shoot him with blaster then charge the WK and HoW
3+ cover...
So 9 shots equates to 6 hits, 3 glances or pens, and 1 gets through cover.
Ok, so 5 jet bikes taking 27 shots kill a jinking raider.
Venoms don't get 3+ cover.
12 shots, 8 hits, 4 glance/pen 2 get through cover.
4 bikes kill a jinking venom.
Venom vs bike:
12 shots, 8 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 kills.
It takes 108 points of bikes to kill a venom.
It takes 195 points of venoms to kill those same 4 bikes.
That's really a problem. The odds aren't slightly in the Craftworlds favor, they are stupidly stacked in the craftworlds favor. It would be like we're playing poker and the craftworld hand 9 cards and dark eldar had 5.
Pure DE vs any Gargantuan Creature is going to be rough.
Old Wraith Knight, we needed 9 shots to get one past the goalie.
New wraith knight, only wounded on a 6 vs poison and has FnP. Now we'll need 40.5 poison shots for 1 wound.
What do you think the point increase will be to account for the 450% improvement on survivability vs our poison?
-Matt
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
"oh no I have to snapfire a DL!" please...The main threat will be what is inside, and since jink does not affect the passengers, it is well worth it.
Reaver jet bikes can be a great solution to the WK, or hell even against the Eldar bikes. Maybe killing the WK is an option that is better left alone.
Assuming Eldar stay the same for the most part, It would be much easier to just ignore the WK and kill units we can actually hurt with our splinter weapons. Our bikes can match speed with theirs, and are much better in CC.
As far as rumors, its best you guys dont over react like every other internet try hard and just take wait until we have an actual codex
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Post by: vipoid
Jinking a Venom does.
Also, considering that Eldar jetbikes outrange raider passengers by 12" *and* have a 2d6 assault jump, have fun getting those raiders into range.
(This, of course, assuming they survive at all)
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
Reaver jet bikes can be a great solution to the WK, or hell even against the Eldar bikes. Maybe killing the WK is an option that is better left alone.
By what possible measure?
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Jinking a raider does not limit my ability to hurt.
Assuming Eldar stay the same for the most part, It would be much easier to just ignore the WK and kill units we can actually hurt with our splinter weapons. Our bikes can match speed with theirs, and are much better in CC.
Once again, we appear to be forgetting that their bikes can obliterate ours from 36" away. Plus, they have a 12" move and a 2d6" assault jump. How exactly are you catching them?
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
As far as rumors, its best you guys dont over react like every other internet try hard and just take wait until we have an actual codex
Except that some of these aren't even rumours - they're established facts.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Did you forget that DE bikes have the same rules? DE can also move 2d6" in the assalt phase.
Also playing DE takes some tactics. Im not chasing the Bikes across the map with raiders...With the speed DE have, you can easily trap/corner the eldar to get close enough to another raider, it is all about position.
You are so worried about the Scatter lasers, you are overreacting about them. Just like in the pass, There will be a counter. All you have to do is fight fire with fire and the reavers can easily kill the windriders you are so worried about.
Field MSU of the reavers, all you need is one of them to get into assault and you have them trapped. learn to work around cut n paste units, a good tactic can go a long way.
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Post by: Frozocrone
Would Razorwings work? Off the board T1 and Missiles are 48" range and large blast so sure to cause lots of wounds, even if Ap5...
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Post by: vipoid
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Did you forget that DE bikes have the same rules? DE can also move 2d6" in the assalt phase.
Which helps them far less if they want to get into combat.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Also playing DE takes some tactics. Im not chasing the Bikes across the map with raiders...With the speed DE have, you can easily trap/corner the eldar to get close enough to another raider, it is all about position.
How are these raiders all still alive? How many turns do you seriously think they'll live?
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
You are so worried about the Scatter lasers, you are overreacting about them.
No, I am being honest. If you think we're fine against that degree of mobile firepower, then you're delusional.
You have yet to name anything even remotely resembling a counter.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:All you have to do is fight fire with fire and the reavers can easily kill the windriders you are so worried about.
6 Eldar jet bikes (162pts) vs 10 reavers (160pts)
The eldar jetbikes shoot first (having 12" of range over the reavers). 24 shots, 16 hits, 13.33 wounds. If the reavers jink, that's 4.5 reavers dead. If they don't jink, that's 8.9 reavers dead.
So, either you lose 9/10 reavers or else you lost around half, and have negligible firepower to retaliate with.
But, I'm sure you'll want dark eldar to strike first (because obviously you're fighting brain-dead eldar players and will somehow get the jump on him even when his units are just as mobile, but with +12" range).
So, let's try that.
10 shots, 6.7 hits, 3.3 wounds, 1.1 dead eldar. The remaining 5 eldar shoot back, dealing 11 wounds - 3.7 if jinking, 7.4 if not.
Either way, the remaining reavers are unlikely to inflict even a single casualty back.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Field MSU of the reavers, all you need is one of them to get into assault and you have them trapped. learn to work around cut n paste units, a good tactic can go a long way.
How many detachments are you fielding to get all these reavers?
Frozocrone wrote:Would Razorwings work? Off the board T1 and Missiles are 48" range and large blast so sure to cause lots of wounds, even if Ap5...
Could be our best bet, though I seriously pity whatever's left on the field in the meantime.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Uh, what did I miss? How are the new Eldar Jetbikes getting a 36" range on every bike?
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Scatter-lasers have 36'' range.
Every model in a Windrider jetbike squad can take a scatter-laser (or shuriken cannon) for 10ppm.
It's funny because an 8-man squad of Reavers will put ~4 glances on a 3+ save Raider, so for 1080 points you can take 5 squads of 8 WJB's and wipe out 5 raiders a turn. From 48'' away. And there's nothing you can do to stop it beyond hiding behind BLOS or null-deployment.
Even if the Dark Eldar player goes first, he won't even be in range to do anything because warriors in a raider have a maximum threat range of 30''. So if the Eldar player sets up a gunline at 40'' away, the majority of your firepower isn't going to be able to do anything. You'd have to rely on lances.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Huh. What's the source for that rumor? Other than a mention of twin linking and scatter lasers, the master page for the Eldar rumor thread doesn't have ANY rumors up relating to rules.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
It's not a rumor anymore, iirc the profile for the unit is in the latest WD. I'll see if I can find the scan someone posted. edit- Here ya go. 
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Post by: Jimsolo
I wonder if the Scatter Laser profile is going to significantly change. Any word on whether they will still be troops or not?
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Scatter-lasers are strength 6 ap6, heavy 4 with 36'' range. They no longer have laser-lock.
Windriders are a troops choice.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Sweet. Troop tax to get a Farseer into my DE lists just got way better!
But yes, it sounds like trying to outshoot them with Reavers would be a silly way to go. Deep striking gunboats, Psychic Shriek in negative lead bubbles, or flanking monstrous creatures seem like the ways to go. They are definitely a high priority target.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Yeah, it's a great time to play an Eldar /w Dark Eldar allies or vice-versa list.
... not so much if you want to play straight Dark Eldar. Though I guess at this point we're actually pretty used to standing in older brother's shadow.
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Post by: SarisKhan
I bring an allied Eldar detachment to my DE army in order to spice it up to competitive levels. Jetseer, Windriders and a Wraithknight. Seems that with the upcoming changes they're going to be even more of a buff.
1-2 units of 3 Scatriders and a sword-wielding WK should be really competitive but not excessive. Divination Jetseer to cast Prescience and other helpful spells. Blaster Archon in a Venom, 4x Raider Gunboats with NS, 2x RWJF with DLs, NS and Necrotoxin Missiles as the DE core. Seems pretty well-equipped to counter Imperial Knights, Bikers and Wolfstars. I won't win the local tournaments but should be able to get a place in the first 10.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
Any chances the windriders will be bumped to a 4+ save? That would make me feel a little more comfortable about facing large groups of them.
I am concerned for the havoc they will wreak against my vehicle heavy lists. I suspect my coven lists will also struggle against them because of the ease with which they can put wounds on grotesques and still outmaneuver them.
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Post by: Vaeleria
I honestly can't wait to test different approaches against those Jet-Bikes. I'm rather fired up to find a solution, than being scared or frustrated already.
I'll let you guys know how it worked
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Post by: Lord Commissar
Its interesting how the wave serpents have been replaced by something with even more weight of fire.
As dark eldar players, they definitely give our skimmers some trouble by having an amazing wave of s6 fire. However, its not fundamentally different from facing the ignore cover waveserpent. Essentially the serpents s6 shots twinlinked, followed by s7 ignore shots is approximately the same amount of threat as the non-twin linked jetbikes that dont ignore cover, but have more shots.
So, the answer is, the same as before. Did you ever win versus waveserpent spam anyways?
The wraithknight is basically a slap to the face though. Basically immune to poison. Only way we can deal with that is our own allied in D weapons.
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Post by: Trystis
 Lord Commissar wrote:The wraithknight is basically a slap to the face though. Basically immune to poison. Only way we can deal with that is our own allied in D weapons.
Allied harlequins also have some ok weapons against wraithknights like neural disrupters, caresses, and several of the psychic powers the Shadowseers can access.
I wonder if we will get to take cluster caltrops on each of our jet bikes in the future.
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Post by: vipoid
Trystis wrote:
I wonder if we will get to take cluster caltrops on each of our jet bikes in the future.
I wondered if we might be allowed rules like 'skyfire' or 'ignores cover' or even 'twin-linked'. I wondered if our vehicles and troops might be allowed weapons that aren't just 'dark lances' and 'more dark lances'.
Considering the answers to these, I really wouldn't get your hopes up. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if our next "codex" is released as an Eldar supplement.
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Post by: Ascalam
We have twin-linked. I use it a lot due to playing Covens as my main army.
You can find it on the Talos Pain Engine
More twin-linked would be very nice though.
Something skyfire that isn't a flyer would be good. More haywire weapons/Heat lance style weapons would be good.
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Post by: vipoid
 Ascalam wrote:We have twin-linked. I use it a lot due to playing Covens as my main army.
You can find it on the Talos Pain Engine
More twin-linked would be very nice though.
Something skyfire that isn't a flyer would be good. More haywire weapons/Heat lance style weapons would be good.
I'd really like it if warriors and trueborn could take heat lances and haywire blasters.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Real space raider detachment.
Use Reavers to harrass Windriders, Make sure raiders & friends follow or stay back slightly behind to allow bikes to pressure windriders into force shooting bikes. First turn jink like there is no tomorrow, anyone who actually has enough experience with DE will know the save will help you limit the damage you take.
5 Squads seems about right for normal spam list , so make sure you try to do the same or just have atleast 4 max. The eldar player wont be able to kill all the threats in his face if you rush him. He would have to split his fire and focus on bikes or raiders.
If he kills the raiders? cool, more than likely my bikes will be in his fice turn 1 after the bikes more 12"-flatout and 2d6". if he goes first? well still wouldnt change much, just be sure to position the bikes up front and raiders back, make it to where if he wants to shoot the raiders he will have to put himself closer to the reavers threat range.
Having a ravager without DL might not be a bad idea. Shoot those bikes with 9 str5 ap 2 shots will make him want to jink if he cares about those bikes, making them less effective later.
you can math hammer all you want, but any exp player will know math hammer is not always right. you either roll well or you dont. DE is not a cut n paste team, they are a Finesses team. Treat them right, and they will return the favor.
If you arent able to pull this off well, then DE might not be the team for you: /
Hell even having harlies would be a great idea, they can make great support for DE
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Post by: vipoid
 DaKKaLAnce wrote:Real space raider detachment.
Use Reavers to harrass Windriders, Make sure raiders & friends follow or stay back slightly behind to allow bikes to pressure windriders into force shooting bikes. First turn jink like there is no tomorrow, anyone who actually has enough experience with DE will know the save will help you limit the damage you take.
5 Squads seems about right for normal spam list , so make sure you try to do the same or just have atleast 4 max. The eldar player wont be able to kill all the threats in his face if you rush him. He would have to split his fire and focus on bikes or raiders.
Well, the eldar player can easily wipe out 5 units of jinking bikes, then move back out of range of the raider passengers.
Or, even if the Raiders passengers get to shoot him at long range, the damage you'll inflict will be pitiful in comparison - and you'll then spend your next turn removing raiders.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
you can math hammer all you want, but any exp player will know math hammer is not always right. you either roll well or you dont. DE is not a cut n paste team, they are a Finesses team. Treat them right, and they will return the favor.
Sigh, this nonsense argument again.
The fact that dice don't always come up averages doesn't mean that you get to dismiss math out of hand.
If your strategy revolves around getting much better luck than your opponent, not only are DE not the army for you, but you need to seriously rethink your tactics.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Vaeleria wrote:I honestly can't wait to test different approaches against those Jet-Bikes. I'm rather fired up to find a solution, than being scared or frustrated already.
I'll let you guys know how it worked
Don't over-look really cheap beast packs.
Fast enough to catch the bikes, cheap enough that if the eldar fires on them, they are over-killing the target. Never leave a slot left open.
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Post by: vipoid
What sort of cheap beast units are you thinking of?
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
vipoid wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Real space raider detachment.
Use Reavers to harrass Windriders, Make sure raiders & friends follow or stay back slightly behind to allow bikes to pressure windriders into force shooting bikes. First turn jink like there is no tomorrow, anyone who actually has enough experience with DE will know the save will help you limit the damage you take.
5 Squads seems about right for normal spam list , so make sure you try to do the same or just have atleast 4 max. The eldar player wont be able to kill all the threats in his face if you rush him. He would have to split his fire and focus on bikes or raiders.
Well, the eldar player can easily wipe out 5 units of jinking bikes, then move back out of range of the raider passengers.
Or, even if the Raiders passengers get to shoot him at long range, the damage you'll inflict will be pitiful in comparison - and you'll then spend your next turn removing raiders.
DaKKaLAnce wrote:
you can math hammer all you want, but any exp player will know math hammer is not always right. you either roll well or you dont. DE is not a cut n paste team, they are a Finesses team. Treat them right, and they will return the favor.
Sigh, this nonsense argument again.
The fact that dice don't always come up averages doesn't mean that you get to dismiss math out of hand.
If your strategy revolves around getting much better luck than your opponent, not only are DE not the army for you, but you need to seriously rethink your tactics.
My tactics have been very effective. If you dont try then you will never learn. You are going based off assumption and a slight guess off probability.
This tactic will work well, and has worked for me when it comes to rushing a shooty army. Try it out, and you will be surprised how well a 3+ jink save can absorb fire. The Ravager with 3 dissy would also help with the bikes, they would either jink or just loose a bunch of bikes. You are wanting a point and shoot option with no strat, im sorry but you will not have much luck against an army that can match you in speed and firepower. Playing against eldar is putting your archon skills to the limit.
Judging from your previous post, you arent the type to use tactics that require you to think outside the box. Maybe playing another army might be a good idea for you.
Mushykilla has lot of tips for using deployment, objective placement, terrain, etc. to give you the advantage in a battle. The counters are there, you just have to know how to use them.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
vipoid wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Real space raider detachment.
Use Reavers to harrass Windriders, Make sure raiders & friends follow or stay back slightly behind to allow bikes to pressure windriders into force shooting bikes. First turn jink like there is no tomorrow, anyone who actually has enough experience with DE will know the save will help you limit the damage you take.
5 Squads seems about right for normal spam list , so make sure you try to do the same or just have atleast 4 max. The eldar player wont be able to kill all the threats in his face if you rush him. He would have to split his fire and focus on bikes or raiders.
Well, the eldar player can easily wipe out 5 units of jinking bikes, then move back out of range of the raider passengers.
Or, even if the Raiders passengers get to shoot him at long range, the damage you'll inflict will be pitiful in comparison - and you'll then spend your next turn removing raiders.
They key is to run too many small units. Accept that most will die.
2 formations gives you 12 fast attack choices, and possibly 4 webway portals landing with multiple S4 AP3 templates.
I run my bikes in groups of 3. Always jinks. Jinking doesn't impact your D6 S6 rending HoW or your 2S4 Rending HoW. At 61 points, and 3+ jink, they are exceptionally survivable for the cost.
I think DE are going to have the least trouble with eldar bikes. We've got better speed and cheaper MSU than anyone else.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
HawaiiMatt wrote:
They key is to run too many small units. Accept that most will die.
2 formations gives you 12 fast attack choices, and possibly 4 webway portals landing with multiple S4 AP3 templates.
I run my bikes in groups of 3. Always jinks. Jinking doesn't impact your D6 S6 rending HoW or your 2S4 Rending HoW. At 61 points, and 3+ jink, they are exceptionally survivable for the cost.
I think DE are going to have the least trouble with eldar bikes. We've got better speed and cheaper MSU than anyone else.
I completely agree. That is why im not too worried about the bikes as others seem to be. The only real threat would be the wraith knight being a GC.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Wait...how are Wraithknights "basically immune to poison?"
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Post by: SarisKhan
Jimsolo wrote:Wait...how are Wraithknights "basically immune to poison?"
Poison wounds Gargantuan Creatures only on a 6+. Then you've got to go through 3+ armour and an in-built FnP.
Time to consider other tools.
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Post by: Jimsolo
When did they become Gargantuan? Is this another rumor that hasn't been put up on the main page of the rumor thread?
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Post by: vipoid
Jimsolo wrote:When did they become Gargantuan? Is this another rumor that hasn't been put up on the main page of the rumor thread?
It's not a rumour - it's been confirmed.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Jimsolo wrote:When did they become Gargantuan? Is this another rumor that hasn't been put up on the main page of the rumor thread?
Here http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/boom-eldar-rules-tidalwave.html
That info was provided earlier in the day by a guy who took a picture of himself holding the new codex, so it's likely legit.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Cool. Looks pretty sweet. Like the change to the Hemlock big time. Freakshow lists are going to benefit from that.
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Post by: Rinkydink
So, I am a pure DE player... I already struggle against Newcrons, and I will likely struggle against Eldar by the looks of things.
Staying positive, wwp's seem good vs the bikes. Dissies may get the nod over DL's on my raiders. Massed posion will work against the bikes too. Talos can take the hits, (To a certain extent) but will not get near them. Razorwing JF' missiles might do okay as well. The issue is, they threaten and can destroy all troops and vehicles in my army, so will be a priority target. I guess board control will be important for us. - Edit: But, then again just discovered windriders are still troops. And kept their 3+. Urgh.
It is a little annoying seeing the rumoured buffs to Banshees, as that really is what Wyches should be. (Ignore overwatch, terrain, cause fear etc.)
As for the rumoured GC WK... My best option seems to be to ignore it as much as possible and focus down the bikers I guess.
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Post by: vipoid
Haven't you been reading this thread? New Eldar are no threat to us.
We just spam bikes, which then beat their bikes and WKs... somehow. And Gunboat Raiders, those to.
And, of course, no one would ever want to use any of our other DE units - so it's a flawless strategy and proves just how balanced Eldar are.
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Post by: SkaredCast
Ive been reading the last few pages of this tactica thread... thought id chime in here:
- No need to get all our panties in a not, armies come and go in level of "power" and 40k is not a game that exists in a vacuum. Each game exists within the relative. And chance and probability... so there are never any definitive things.
@vipoid - for your level of participation in this thread, I am surprised at your comments, they don't seem very... tactically constructive. How do we find a solution when comments seem overly negative and dismissive? The internet gives people the opportunity to be overly negative I guess. I am in no means an expert in the forces of the Dark Kin, but a positive outlook has always helped me find a solution and help other to find something that works within their local area and against their regular opponents. It seems like you have a great knowledge about the intricacies of the game. How would you use the dark eldar if at all tactically to overcome these new challenges?
I think that a more accurate discussion about the new Eldar will really be possible within a few weeks when we start to gather some more real life experience against the new army.
Personally, I have found use within the new coven units when dealing with Gargantuans and other tough minis. The upgrade for the taloi for example is quite handy. I am nervous for the number of D things that we shall be seeing, but I think that as Dark Eldar, using allies and other detachments and formations to complement the main force will be the best way to run against certain builds.
Thoughts?
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Post by: vipoid
 SkaredCast wrote:Ive been reading the last few pages of this tactica thread... thought id chime in here:
- No need to get all our panties in a not, armies come and go in level of "power" and 40k is not a game that exists in a vacuum. Each game exists within the relative. And chance and probability... so there are never any definitive things.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
Yes, it's possible that the eldar player will roll a string of 1s, but it's equally possible that you'll roll that string of 1s instead. Personally, I'd rather side with the average, rather than hoping to win against a much stronger army by sheer luck.
SkaredCast wrote:
@vipoid - for your level of participation in this thread, I am surprised at your comments, they don't seem very... tactically constructive. How do we find a solution when comments seem overly negative and dismissive?
It's ironic that you say that, because I've found a lot of comments overly positive and optimistic, and which don't want to let little things like 'probability' ruin their fun.
It's probably just because I'm just a very cynical person, but really positive comments (especially ones which make demonstrably incorrect assumptions) tend to annoy me far more than overly negative comments. Each to his own, I guess.
SkaredCast wrote: I am in no means an expert in the forces of the Dark Kin, but a positive outlook has always helped me find a solution and help other to find something that works within their local area and against their regular opponents.
It seems we just look at things in different ways. Frankly, I'm more than a little fed up of having to try and dig for solutions to GW's newest OP codex. 
SkaredCast wrote:
Personally, I have found use within the new coven units when dealing with Gargantuans and other tough minis.
Well, Wracks actually have a ranged AP2 Fleshbane weapon. So, with a mere 1040pts of Wracks with Ossefactors (not including transports), you'll have enough shots to take down a Wraithknight. Assuming they're all in range, obviously.
Other solutions include 20 Venoms (1300pts, without passengers), or 9 Dark Lance Ravagers (1125pts)
SkaredCast wrote:
Personally, I have found use within the new coven units when dealing with Gargantuans and other tough minis. The upgrade for the taloi for example is quite handy.
But, how would a Talos ever close with a WK? Unless the WK wants to be in combat with said Talos (e.g. to make use of its S: D Sword), then it can just jump away until the talos is dead from shooting.
SkaredCast wrote: I am nervous for the number of D things that we shall be seeing, but I think that as Dark Eldar, using allies and other detachments and formations to complement the main force will be the best way to run against certain builds.
I guess this is another area where we differ then - as I'd quite like to see allies burn in the deepest pits of hell.
But, if you like allies, I guess it's a great time - since you have full access to all these eldar goodies. The only thing you'll have to deal with is the handicap from having to include DE in an Eldar army.
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Post by: Jimsolo
So, do you have any valid constructive advice, vipoid? As I understand it, this thread is for building up useful tactical strategies. You seem to be doing nothing but complaining non-stop, and with regard to the Eldar dex, we've got at least five threads for that going elsewhere.
Skari, any chance of getting a written tactical article on the ramifications of the new Eldar? There's a whole lot of ground to cover I suspect, both as allies and as enemies.
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Post by: vipoid
Jimsolo wrote:So, do you have any valid constructive advice, vipoid? As I understand it, this thread is for building up useful tactical strategies. You seem to be doing nothing but complaining non-stop, and with regard to the Eldar dex, we've got at least five threads for that going elsewhere.
My apologies, I wasn't aware that probability and realism were banned in tactics threads.
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Post by: SkaredCast
Jimsolo- it really depends on the book first, once I have read through it and seen a few games I'll be able to write some stuff up. I'm mostly doin the video series, so I might to an eldar tactica series first, know your enemy style. Then touch on the ramifications for the game.
Now, tactically I'd like some opinions on night shields. I have started using splinter racks on larger warrior units but I findnit hard to pay the price of almost an entire new raider on upgrades... But! Last night I failed every junk save I had to make, and a lot of them were with 3's ... So ... It's got me thinking if it's worth it... There is not that much ignore cover stuff in my meta.
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Post by: SarisKhan
SkaredCast wrote:Jimsolo- it really depends on the book first, once I have read through it and seen a few games I'll be able to write some stuff up. I'm mostly doin the video series, so I might to an eldar tactica series first, know your enemy style. Then touch on the ramifications for the game.
Now, tactically I'd like some opinions on night shields. I have started using splinter racks on larger warrior units but I findnit hard to pay the price of almost an entire new raider on upgrades... But! Last night I failed every junk save I had to make, and a lot of them were with 3's ... So ... It's got me thinking if it's worth it... There is not that much ignore cover stuff in my meta.
4x Raider gunboats constitute the core of my DE army. I always give them NS. 3+ Jink is very effective against the most common AT weapons.
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Post by: vipoid
SkaredCast wrote:
Now, tactically I'd like some opinions on night shields. I have started using splinter racks on larger warrior units but I findnit hard to pay the price of almost an entire new raider on upgrades... But! Last night I failed every junk save I had to make, and a lot of them were with 3's ... So ... It's got me thinking if it's worth it... There is not that much ignore cover stuff in my meta.
I find it hard to justify night shields simply because I really don't like making my Raiders more expensive than they need to be. If you've got splinter racks as well, then you're already up to 90pts - which seems like an awful lot for an AV10 open-topped skimmer. Generally, I'd prefer to have an extra raider for those points.
That being said, it might depend on how many 'spare' points you have in your list. If you have some points left, but not enough for a full squad, then it might be worth sticking night shields on some things.
Also, if your table has lots of terrain, then you may be able to make use of Night Shields without even needing to jink.
 SarisKhan wrote:4x Raider gunboats constitute the core of my DE army. I always give them NS. 3+ Jink is very effective against the most common AT weapons.
Do you give them Dark Lances or Disintegrators?
Also, do you give the blokes inside any special weapons?
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Post by: SarisKhan
vipoid wrote:
SarisKhan wrote:4x Raider gunboats constitute the core of my DE army. I always give them NS. 3+ Jink is very effective against the most common AT weapons.
Do you give them Dark Lances or Disintegrators?
Also, do you give the blokes inside any special weapons?
It looks like that:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 80 pts.
• 1 Raider, 90 pts. ( DL, Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
Oftentimes I don't have to Jink with every Raider so those DLs have a chance to fire at full BS. They've already proven surprisingly helpful at AT duty numerous times.
Kabbies don't get any special weapons. Their duty is to kill anything with a Toughness value so TL Splinter Rifles are sufficient. Scourges get all the special weapons they want (that is HLs or HBs).
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Post by: SkaredCast
Having the blather taken out of the kabalite unit really mitigates the cost of the night shield. 170 for the unit. That's about right and it focusses the unit to its battlefield roll. Using terrain to not have to jink with the shields is also huge especially ruins. Or presenting an angled shot and adding another +1 to the save.
I have not used my 4 haywire blaster scourge yet. Need to paint them up. Do you deploy or deep strike?
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Post by: vipoid
SarisKhan wrote:
It looks like that:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 80 pts.
• 1 Raider, 90 pts. ( DL, Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
Oftentimes I don't have to Jink with every Raider so those DLs have a chance to fire at full BS. They've already proven surprisingly helpful at AT duty numerous times.
Kabbies don't get any special weapons. Their duty is to kill anything with a Toughness value so TL Splinter Rifles are sufficient. Scourges get all the special weapons they want (that is HLs or HBs).
Thanks, I'll give that a go.
SkaredCast wrote:
I have not used my 4 haywire blaster scourge yet. Need to paint them up. Do you deploy or deep strike?
I generally deploy mine, though they have an awful record. They're infamous in my group for missing with at least half their shots, and rolling 1s to penetrate about half the time too. 
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Post by: SarisKhan
I frequently use two teams of HL Scourges. 80% of the time I DS them, unless I roll the strategic warlord trait with infiltration or fight against Tyranids (who couldn't care less about Melta and Lance USRs). They do quite well and AP1 really does explode vehicles every once in a while.
I haven't used the HB Scourges yet, but I suppose there's no need to DS. They've got a 12"+24" threat range so they can start behind BLoS and hop toward their targets. Not that DSing them is a bad idea, they don't exactly have to drop close to the target in order to be effective.
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Post by: vipoid
SarisKhan wrote:I frequently use two teams of HL Scourges. 80% of the time I DS them, unless I roll the strategic warlord trait with infiltration or fight against Tyranids (who couldn't care less about Melta and Lance USRs). They do quite well and AP1 really does explode vehicles every once in a while.
Do you not have problems with them scattering away from their target (or mishapping)?
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Post by: SarisKhan
vipoid wrote: SarisKhan wrote:I frequently use two teams of HL Scourges. 80% of the time I DS them, unless I roll the strategic warlord trait with infiltration or fight against Tyranids (who couldn't care less about Melta and Lance USRs). They do quite well and AP1 really does explode vehicles every once in a while.
Do you not have problems with them scattering away from their target (or mishapping)?
I usually place them about 5-6" away from the target. They seldom scatter away from Melta range, 9" is awesome. Mishaps occur every now and then. Still, at least in my experience, they were successful significantly more often than not.
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Post by: Homeskillet
SkaredCast wrote:Jimsolo- it really depends on the book first, once I have read through it and seen a few games I'll be able to write some stuff up. I'm mostly doin the video series, so I might to an eldar tactica series first, know your enemy style. Then touch on the ramifications for the game.
Now, tactically I'd like some opinions on night shields. I have started using splinter racks on larger warrior units but I findnit hard to pay the price of almost an entire new raider on upgrades... But! Last night I failed every junk save I had to make, and a lot of them were with 3's ... So ... It's got me thinking if it's worth it... There is not that much ignore cover stuff in my meta.
Skari, It's funny you mention the Nightshields question, as I've been practicing with the following list: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/644789.page
Lots of Shields to keep the dark kin on the move.
SarisKhan wrote: SkaredCast wrote:Jimsolo- it really depends on the book first, once I have read through it and seen a few games I'll be able to write some stuff up. I'm mostly doin the video series, so I might to an eldar tactica series first, know your enemy style. Then touch on the ramifications for the game.
Now, tactically I'd like some opinions on night shields. I have started using splinter racks on larger warrior units but I findnit hard to pay the price of almost an entire new raider on upgrades... But! Last night I failed every junk save I had to make, and a lot of them were with 3's ... So ... It's got me thinking if it's worth it... There is not that much ignore cover stuff in my meta.
4x Raider gunboats constitute the core of my DE army. I always give them NS. 3+ Jink is very effective against the most common AT weapons.
Same here!
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Post by: Jimsolo
Oof, Skari, you're killing me with the video thing.
As far as Night Shields go thought, I'm a huge fan. On Raiders or Dis Ravagers I think they are basically default equipment. I am less inclined to Jink with Lance Ravagers, so Night Shields might get dropped from them to conserve points, but usually they wind up shielded in my lists, too.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
For Scourges, the only games I've deepstruck them in were games where my opponent had no armor values at all and I wanted them more for grabbing objectives late game. Usually I just deploy mine so that they're out of range turn one. If I'm afraid they'll be killed right away (usually just dawn of war deployment), I might put them in regular reserves where they can fly in and reach most targets just fine anyway. I tend to deploy second with my dark eldar to make careful placement choices staying out of range and putting things in reserves as needed.
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Post by: SkaredCast
I like the idea of the deep striking scourge. But it is risky, and it takes away from a razorwing... Now, those are awesome.
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Post by: Jimsolo
At least for anti-armor, I find the scourges to be more reliable than razorwings, but that's just me.
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Post by: Ascalam
Same.
Scourges make great anti-tank in my lists, with a Razorwing bringing the anti-infantry pain..
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Post by: vipoid
Jimsolo wrote:Oof, Skari, you're killing me with the video thing.
As far as Night Shields go thought, I'm a huge fan. On Raiders or Dis Ravagers I think they are basically default equipment. I am less inclined to Jink with Lance Ravagers, so Night Shields might get dropped from them to conserve points, but usually they wind up shielded in my lists, too.
I'd hesitate to put night shields on either Ravager, tbh. Even with Disintegrators, you have no TL so you're still crippling your firepower whenever you jink.
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Post by: SarisKhan
Razorwing Jetfighters are nice. Airborne DLs to make up for our lack of Skyfire (seriously, GW) and, let's say, Necrotoxin Missiles to drop Fleshbane hate on SM Bikers and Wolfstars. Add NS to 3+ Jink after dropping the payload.
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Post by: Solar Shock
I haven't had to chance to field any yet, but would our own bikers fair pretty well against the elder bikes? I was initially looking for a shooting option to overcome them, but in general the 3+ with the option to jink seems to pretty much make shooting rather ineffective. Potentially throwing out lots of MSU venoms? I mean the bikes can only choose one target, so having a good few venoms with kabs inside? Throwing horrendous amounts of poison at them? volume seems the most suitable answer, as you have little effective means of by-passing the armour with jink available. Back to our bikes, not only can we jink ourselves, but crashing into them with caltrops would surely be effective? Plus we have HnR, whereas they don't (?). So once tied up, you could potentially keep them locked down and HnR on their turns to open them up for fire, before charging back in? Gunboats - with dissies? The TL spliterracks for volume, while the dissie for forcing jink? You get the benefit of weight of fire for answering their 3+, while potentially the dissie's force the jinks and help mitigate their shooting next turn? - I've always wanted to run dissies..... just because disintegrating stuff is pretty cooool. But then again shooting something with DarkLight is pretty cool also.... not that cool has anything to do with dice rolling
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Post by: vipoid
SarisKhan wrote:Razorwing Jetfighters are nice. Airborne DLs to make up for our lack of Skyfire (seriously, GW) and, let's say, Necrotoxin Missiles to drop Fleshbane hate on SM Bikers and Wolfstars. Add NS to 3+ Jink after dropping the payload.
Why Necrotoxin missiles? Wouldn't Shatterfield missiles be better - since they're also wounding on 2s, but have Shred?
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Post by: Solar Shock
OOOO has anyone thought;
Medusae? DS in, flamers with AP3 and no cover saves With a blaster archon? Or solo in venoms?
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Post by: SarisKhan
vipoid wrote: SarisKhan wrote:Razorwing Jetfighters are nice. Airborne DLs to make up for our lack of Skyfire (seriously, GW) and, let's say, Necrotoxin Missiles to drop Fleshbane hate on SM Bikers and Wolfstars. Add NS to 3+ Jink after dropping the payload.
Why Necrotoxin missiles? Wouldn't Shatterfield missiles be better - since they're also wounding on 2s, but have Shred?
Because Shatterfields are a paid upgrade. If there are some spare points left to get them then sure, they are better.
Solar Shock wrote:OOOO has anyone thought;
Medusae? DS in, flamers with AP3 and no cover saves With a blaster archon? Or solo in venoms?
I was going to suggest that. WWP Archon + 4 Medusae in a Venom. Probably times two.
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Post by: Ascalam
That would work.
Or we can be naughty and borrow a few wraithguard to WWP in
The Eldar bikes will be pretty beast, but not impossible to overcome.
Landing them In CC with something would also help, but the overwatch would be brutal. Maybe see if you can soak the overwatch on some wracks or something, then hit them with a few Taloi... hmmm....
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Post by: SarisKhan
Talos Pain Engine with a TL Splinter Cannon isn't going to die anytime soon to an equivalent pts. amount of Scatriders (5 will deal only a single Wound on average) and can unleash some Poison hurt in return. Take three, or perhaps the Corpsethief Claw. Maybe throw a Cronos with Spirit Probe somewhere there.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
I know it's not as simple as it seems but I do love Solars idea of using reavers to HnR and tie up their bikes repeatedly.
A huge factor too in a match up like this will be biding our time for PFP to build up. Between that and drugs I think counter bikes are a pretty solid choice. I mean regardless, for me its always been about using speed for positioning/threatening to goad my opponents into over reaching. With Eldar having similar speed I only see this working even more excepting seasoned tourney players.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
I have been saying that our bikes can be a good counter to the eldar. If you get the Real space raider detachment, you can make it even more so.
MSU of reaver is just going to be our counter to the windriders, If you get lucky with nightfighting we can have a 2+ jink turn 1!
Also, I think ignoring the WK might be the best idea for now. We really have nothing that can effectivelyhurt it. I feel like we would be better just running around and claim objectives and win that battle than trying to kill it.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
DaKKaLAnce wrote:I have been saying that our bikes can be a good counter to the eldar. If you get the Real space raider detachment, you can make it even more so.
MSU of reaver is just going to be our counter to the windriders, If you get lucky with nightfighting we can have a 2+ jink turn 1!
Also, I think ignoring the WK might be the best idea for now. We really have nothing that can effectivelyhurt it. I feel like we would be better just running around and claim objectives and win that battle than trying to kill it.
Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.
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Post by: vipoid
 FearPeteySodes wrote:Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.
I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.
I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
First, i don't mean to imply it's as simple as just scoring more points out of the gate, obviously nothing is that easy. However i do think we have better MSU potential and overall speed.
Against a jetbike eldar force I don't think it our of the realm of possibility to be able to out maneuver them into an advantageous position for us using either spare venoms or reavers, etc. The DE game doesn't really change the way i see it, peel off a bike squad by presenting a nice opening or trap it in with WWP strike and drop shots on it...
I havent played a crazy heavy bike list so i won't claim to be an expert but im not going to pull my hair out before trying stuff aside from theory, just too many factors.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
vipoid wrote: FearPeteySodes wrote:Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.
I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.
I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.
Yes, sadly eldar does match our speed very well. This might be a army we would have to play some what defensive against. If our bikes can rush theirs, it could help with keeping them busy.
If the WK is being use(which im guessing it will most of the time) we need to try and avoid it, we can out run the WK. Our focus will not be to kill, But to mainly claim objectives and keep the bikes busy.
Ravagers might be ver useful against the Eldar bikes, making them jink is really a a great outcome, so dissy ravagers might shine against the bikes. We have other options, But I feel like our bikes and dissy ravagers might be a bigger threat.
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Post by: lustigjh
SarisKhan wrote:Talos Pain Engine with a TL Splinter Cannon isn't going to die anytime soon to an equivalent pts. amount of Scatriders (5 will deal only a single Wound on average) and can unleash some Poison hurt in return. Take three, or perhaps the Corpsethief Claw. Maybe throw a Cronos with Spirit Probe somewhere there.
The huge footprint of Corpsethief will help corner the bikes for a charge. 6" move is still pretty bad, though.
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Post by: SarisKhan
lustigjh wrote: SarisKhan wrote:Talos Pain Engine with a TL Splinter Cannon isn't going to die anytime soon to an equivalent pts. amount of Scatriders (5 will deal only a single Wound on average) and can unleash some Poison hurt in return. Take three, or perhaps the Corpsethief Claw. Maybe throw a Cronos with Spirit Probe somewhere there.
The huge footprint of Corpsethief will help corner the bikes for a charge. 6" move is still pretty bad, though.
I think they should be able to catch a unit or two with well thought-out positioning and a bit of luck. Objectives and terrain are also significant factors here.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Solar Shock wrote:I haven't had to chance to field any yet, but would our own bikers fair pretty well against the elder bikes?
All chicken-littling aside, probably not. On a point-for-point basis, the Reavers are a mid range threat, but the Windriders are top-priority. You will probably need to gang up on units of Windriders and bring more points worth of firepower down on them than they cost. (Like most high-priority targets.) Which units you choose to ignore is going to vary by list, but if your opponent basically spams nothing but Windriders you're going to have a tough row to hoe. (I'd recommend some very meticulous unit maneuvering on your part...)
When it comes to Corpsethief, you hopefully brought a Scalpel Squadron, Dark Artisan, Scarlet Epicurean formation, too. While they might out maneuver the CTC, they won't be able to evade everything, especially since each of these formations can either Deep Strke or Outflank.
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Post by: Red Corsair
vipoid wrote: FearPeteySodes wrote:Agree on all points here. Same tactic against knights really regarding the WK. With the speed we have you can generally play the mission pretty hard to build up a nice points lead. I think a lot of the problems people have with the DE codex are assuming old school kill point games or meatgrinders. Mealstrom missions, in particular spoils of war(?) were flippin' built for DE.
I'm not seeing how you'll take the lead over Eldar in maelstrom.
I mean, when a good deal of their army is small units of OS jetbikes, I'm not seeing a mobility advantage on our part.
Have to agree, they basically get the same jetbikes but from their troops meaning they have obsec. Sure theirs are a tad more expensive, but they are also more durable and have far superior damage output. The point difference is trivial as well since they don't require a troop tax, two min warrior squads contribute nothing and lack obsec in RSR detachment and costs us 80 points.
Sadly in regard to the WK I think we literally are only left with ignoring him and keeping everything MSU, saddest part is I pray to face the sword and board version despite being more durable since I'll ignore it. The standard version with heavy wraith canons can also purchase two scatter laser remember meaning he can target 4!!!!! different units.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Do we know if the windrider host will have obsec? I forgot about that if thats the case.
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Post by: Red Corsair
FearPeteySodes wrote:Do we know if the windrider host will have obsec? I forgot about that if thats the case.
Nah, but I doubt you will see eldar using it anyway when they can get everything they need out of a standard cad anyway.
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Post by: vipoid
My concern about ignoring WKs is that it will let the eldar player dominate both objectives and the field.
If he has two WKs, then he can park each one onto an objective, and basically secure those objectives for the entire game. Not only that, but it also creates a ~19" exclusion zone around those WKs. Anything we send into that zone can be charged and obliterated by said WK (to say nothing of their shooting).
My point is simply that winning on objectives may be difficult if the eldar player can basically guarantee two objectives each turn. So, even ignoring the WKs may not be enough.
And God help us if we happen to be playing Relic...
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Do we know the point cost of the weapon loadouts? That will hopefully make him cost alot more(fingers crossed)
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Post by: Rinkydink
If you're talking about WK's, they are 295.(According to rumours anyway) But can't have both ranged and cc D. One or the other.
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Post by: Jimsolo
The CC D comes with their only invulnerable save, is that correct? I haven't seen it, so I might be waaaaaay wrong.
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Post by: Hollismason
No that's correct and Corpsethief may not be the best thing to take against Wraithknights or Eldar for that matter. I think maybe taking Triple Dark Lance Ravagers maybe?
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Post by: Jimsolo
I know it isn't necessarily comparable, but I've tried using triple triple Dark Lance Ravagers against a gargantuan creature (a T-C'Tan in this case) and failed so abysmally I have never tried again.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Hmm. Hopefully with either your 36 Poison shots or your 5 Heat Lance shots will soften him up before the charge (or on Overwatch, you know, whichever, lol).
But yeah, the CTC probably shouldn't take on a full-strength WK.
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Post by: Dalymiddleboro
Easy way to deal with wind riders are venoms.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Not at equal points values. (vipoid already did the math a few pages back, I believe.) Venoms are a good way to finish them off or try for a morale failure, though.
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Post by: mercury14
MSU and morale failure are the way to beat a Windrider list. Proximity to a coven unit plus plucking off a Windrider or three will force a Ld7 morale check they really don't want to have to make.
Ignore the WK and play MSU.
And the Serpent spam (or even semi-spam) auto-win button against us us now gone.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Jimsolo wrote:
Not at equal points values. (vipoid already did the math a few pages back, I believe.) Venoms are a good way to finish them off or try for a morale failure, though.
Right now the best unit to include IMO is a coven unit with an archon wearing the armor of misery. DS in with a WWP, drop their LD, try as best you can to cause as many moral checks as you can. This is in regard to facing massed windriders, if your not playing with kneecapping silly detachment restrictions I'd add in harlequins for further LD debuffing and veil of tears to keep the whole mess alive.
We have the tools, but it is SEVERELY annoying that we now have to basically tailor every list to this match up, it basically decides 33% of our list minimum. Automatically Appended Next Post: mercury14 wrote:MSU and morale failure are the way to beat a Windrider list. Proximity to a coven unit plus plucking off a Windrider or three will force a Ld7 morale check they really don't want to have to make.
Ignore the WK and play MSU.
And the Serpent spam (or even semi-spam) auto-win button against us us now gone.
Is it though? Basically the advice so far is to attempt to out MSU CWE, which honestly IMO isn't possible and the losing strategum. Simply put they do it more efficiently then us with better offense. It sucks, but it's the truth.
I also don't think WS spam is dead at all, just different. That shield will annihilate anything it wants still, is it a moronic 60" range? No, but a 12" move with a 24" range is hardly none threatening when it now boasts 2d6 shots. Jury is still out on that one.
Honestly I have a feeling Eldar themselves will make it tough for one another. I mean, so many builds in the new book look amazing, yet so many hard counter one another. I mean Dark reapers inside of WS turn 1 will wreck windrider armies, small aspect shrine formations inside WS? yes please! BS5 ignoring jink with S5 ap 3, will wreck windrider units while the WS can also cripple others. Yet that list will not be so mobile as to beat things like massed DS.
One thing is certain though, a WK will pretty much be in EVERY list and it's a crap shoot as to which one you build to face.
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Post by: Jimsolo
I don't really consider the Ld targeting tactics tailoring against the Eldar; I've been using the Armor of Misery/TGL/Freakish Spectacle/PGL/Allied Telepathy strats since the Covens supplement came out.
Still, I can understand how frustrating such a big change in tactics might be.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Jimsolo wrote:I don't really consider the Ld targeting tactics tailoring against the Eldar; I've been using the Armor of Misery/TGL/Freakish Spectacle/ PGL/Allied Telepathy strats since the Covens supplement came out.
Still, I can understand how frustrating such a big change in tactics might be.
When I say tailoring I don't mean it's only good against eldar but more that now I am basically forced to take it in order to deal with eldar unless I want an insanely uphill battle in that match. Being forced to take things really ruins my day as I like to run off the chart strange builds no one else generally does.
Tailoring is generally used to mean something quite different and I should have realized the mixed message I was sending so sorry
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Post by: Jimsolo
Ah. I get what you were saying.
Yeah, the game changes over time, and some of the adaptations can be frustrating. I finally shelved my Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts when 7th edition failed to rescue them. It appears like the days of heavy vehicles might be well and truly behind us, and a more infantry heavy game, supported by lighter vehicles (and Jinking units everywhere you look!) is the predominant path of least resistance.
I think the Freakshow lists I've been running are going to get better if the trend continues. (So happy thoughts for me!) As someone who considers DE his primary army now, I'm seriously hoping we don't return to the days of heavy armor and omni-14 vehicles as the mainstay.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yea see I liked my freakshow as well, but I really have trouble thinking of ways to combat that WK, he invalidates large Grot squads and taloi entirely.
I'll adapt as you said, probably finish that evil circus idea I was back burning in an attempt to save time and money on space clown conversions, but I guess they forced my hand hehe.
Worst part is I almost finished my Coven Wraith knight conversion but now I don't even want to use it. I hate using (to steal MTG terminology) power 9 choices.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Sorry Red to step in and go OT here, but you have to finish that WK. It just needs to happen...
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Post by: Red Corsair
FearPeteySodes wrote:Sorry Red to step in and go OT here, but you have to finish that WK. It just needs to happen...
Ha ha yea I know, I have been taking a hobby break due to a herniated disc in my neck (don't ask me how I managed that one) but at the very least he'll get painted super dope for painting competitions/centerpiece duty. The irony is I armed him with the sword and shield because it looked cool and was less brutal for my opponents and now it's probably the best build
Man I can't wait until I can paint/sculpt again
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Post by: Jimsolo
Red Corsair wrote:Yea see I liked my freakshow as well, but I really have trouble thinking of ways to combat that WK, he invalidates large Grot squads and taloi entirely.
I'll adapt as you said, probably finish that evil circus idea I was back burning in an attempt to save time and money on space clown conversions, but I guess they forced my hand hehe.
Worst part is I almost finished my Coven Wraith knight conversion but now I don't even want to use it. I hate using (to steal MTG terminology) power 9 choices.
The Freakshow lists can handle Wraithknights I think. The Psychic Shrieks at least will work on him even better than the bikes. (Or be more devastating, points-wise.)
There are lots of new challenges here, but I think DE have a good footing going forward, maybe better than some other armies.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yea I honestly feel sorriest for Orks and the new skitarri.
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Post by: Solar Shock
Me poor orks! they are not looking forward to Eldar.... especially when they got shafted so hard on the walker front.... GMC.... now that's what the orks need!
Any notes on changes to the suncannon? I had intended to run a dual wraithcannon WK prior to this change, I prefer fun, fluffy lists and i'd not like to bring a unit no one wants to play. Plus I spent like a fortune on that dude and he's mid conversion.
I think a CTC, DA, Grot bomb, with good positioning you should be able to close off enough of the table that you are neutering their JSJ? Aiming to pen them in while the CTC absorbs the firepower, then if they boost over you hopefully with a good spread they won't escape CC.
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Post by: Mushkilla
Red Corsair wrote:Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.
As far as I'm aware D weapons don't ignore FnP in 7th edition (unless I missed a rule somewhere). D weapons count as S10 for the purpose of calculating instant death (unless specified otherwise the scythes count as S4 for example). So the corpse thief do get FnP against the Wraith Knight, also the wraith knight will strike at I1 when charging through cover, so as long as the talos are equipped with iquor injectors they should make short work of it. I'm much more concerned about the double wraith cannon variant personally.
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Post by: SarisKhan
Mushkilla wrote: Red Corsair wrote:Yea the sword and board WK will flat out rape a corpse thief claw now. He strikes at initiative 5 and will most likely get the assault off and with destroyer attacks your not getting FnP and generally going to lose at least 2 of the 5 before swinging back. At that point you won't have the volume to reliably kill him.
As far as I'm aware D weapons don't ignore FnP in 7th edition (unless I missed a rule somewhere). D weapons count as S10 for the purpose of calculating instant death (unless specified otherwise the scythes count as S4 for example). So the corpse thief do get FnP against the Wraith Knight, also the wraith knight will strike at I1 when charging through cover, so as long as the talos are equipped with iquor injectors they should make short work of it. I'm much more concerned about the double wraith cannon variant personally.
" Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."
" For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."
That's what the rules say. I used to think that FnP can work as long as Strength D doesn't cause S10- ID (so no go for T5 or below), but now I'm not so sure.
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Post by: Solar Shock
So that's stating;
for FnP to be ignored the destroyer weapon must have ID or the unsaved wound must cause ID. That correct?
Does distortion have ID as rule? The weapons are Str D, so count as Str 10, they don't directly have ID going from SarisKhans second quote.
"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."
So for me that looks like anything above T5 gets FnP.
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Post by: Jpr
No it's quite clearly saying you don't get FNP against destroyer hits or against an unsaved instant death wound.
It's then saying for instant death purposes (aka to see if you get double tapped by the destroyer hit) it counts as str 10. So the talos wont get instant deathed but they will have their FNP ignored.
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Post by: Solar Shock
Ahh yeh, sorry re-reading that and I don't see how I got it wrong!
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Post by: Red Corsair
Yea, it's pretty bad considering the WK is 295 and the CTC is 650. I know I can hug terrain, I have done it before verse dread knights but it definitely leaves you in the weeds literally hoping your opponent is stupid. It is not a reliable tactic since they are far more mobile, it's basically like he is auto pinning 30% or more of your list each turn. Not only that but there is no guarantee you kill him even inside terrain. 20 attacks, for 14 hits and 12 wounds. 4 saved from the shield then 2.67 from FnP meaning more then half the time he will survive with 1 wound. I know 2 of those wounds should be ID but he also can save those or you can roll a 1 on your d3 wounds.
A 650 pt slow moving CC unit should not have that much struggle to over come a 295 jack of all trades. and again that requires a terrain feature large enough for 5 taloi to completely hide inside, if your in the open with one it's much more tilted in his favor.
You all know how much I love the CTC, but the new WK is the hard counter to it unfortunately.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Could be worse. I've seen an entire CTC killed by a single, run of the mill Daemon Prince, in a single round of combat.
I think Instant Death in general is the bane of the Talos.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Jimsolo wrote:Could be worse. I've seen an entire CTC killed by a single, run of the mill Daemon Prince, in a single round of combat.
I think Instant Death in general is the bane of the Talos.
I hate instant death as a rule, it's very poorly designed. High point models should never be one shotted off the table, it dashes hopes and ironically is very uncinematic which is why I am surprised it has hung around post 5th.
Oh well, I'll just make a creepy as feth ring leader and sideshow clowns to scream at him and honk their horns until he falls over
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Post by: Jimsolo
Well, a lot of them are protected by either being Eternal Warriors or Gargantuan Creatures.
I can understand the frustration, especially when there isn't sufficient explanation. But I think ID from high strength just makes sense. Barring magical influence, it kind of doesn't matter how ripped a normal human (or Tau, Eldar, etc) is, if the damage from an orbital bombardment penetrates his force field or what have you, there's no reason the victim shouldn't be so much raspberry jelly.
Especially against armies that can field massed high-wound models or monstrous creatures, such as Daemons, Eldar, Tyranids, or (as of the last Codex) us, Instant Death provides a needed check. It's frustrating at times, but I'm not sure it's broken. (Especially in regards to Taloi, it's pretty uncommon, as well.)
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.
If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Red Corsair wrote:Yea, it's pretty bad considering the WK is 295 and the CTC is 650. I know I can hug terrain, I have done it before verse dread knights but it definitely leaves you in the weeds literally hoping your opponent is stupid. It is not a reliable tactic since they are far more mobile, it's basically like he is auto pinning 30% or more of your list each turn. Not only that but there is no guarantee you kill him even inside terrain. 20 attacks, for 14 hits and 12 wounds. 4 saved from the shield then 2.67 from FnP meaning more then half the time he will survive with 1 wound. I know 2 of those wounds should be ID but he also can save those or you can roll a 1 on your d3 wounds.
A 650 pt slow moving CC unit should not have that much struggle to over come a 295 jack of all trades. and again that requires a terrain feature large enough for 5 taloi to completely hide inside, if your in the open with one it's much more tilted in his favor.
You all know how much I love the CTC, but the new WK is the hard counter to it unfortunately.
Factor in the shooting. 30 poison shots, 3/4 (BS3 twin-linked), 1/6 wound, 1/3 fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. An extra 0.833 wounds per turn. Yay!
Or ally in harliquins with neuro disruptor. Hits on 3+, wounds on 2+, no armor, FnP fails 2/3rds. Every 2.7 shots is 1 unsaved wound. That's actually pretty bad, considering it's 25 points a shot, with a 12" range. It's 2 wounds per 145 point troupe, more expensive if you give them any sort of close combat weapons.
True borne are the most cost effective high strength low AP shooting, but they are only scoring 1 wound per ~130 points of trueborne.
Venoms with poison vs Gargantuan creatures is wound per 219 points of venoms.
Pretty much our only solution is to ally in psykers, run Ld debuffs and psychic scream.
-Matt Automatically Appended Next Post: DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
Dark Lance?
2/3 hit, 1/2 wounds, 2/3 fail FnP. That's assuming he's in the open and he didn't take the invul close combat model.
That's 27 dark lance shots to kill 1.
How many do you bring?
In an army that gets psykers as squad leaders with a power that heals a wound.
Just saying...
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Post by: Jimsolo
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.
If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Honestly the best option is a cast of players formation with the mask, and an archon with armor of misery in a raider with WWP. Basically scream at it, neuro disrupt its last few wounds then with a little luck force as many moral tests as you can on near by bikes through your other shooting.
I wish there were an efficient DE only source for tackling the problem but it looks like we either ignore him (not sure this is smart) or ally in harlequins or eldar.
Keep in mind we can take a WK ourselves now that he is a single formation. I hate to say it, but the best answer to a wraith knight in the game currently is another WK.
For me I am considering dark reapers, they flat out rape windriders and with relentless can get the drop everytime from inside transports and they can also help put down that WK if you need him dead after the first couple turns. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jimsolo wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.
If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.
Yea the CC variety is also going to be the most allowed version since it lacks ranged D. Don't forget he still gets 2 independently firing scatter lasers. 8 s6 shots is nothing to roll you eyes at.
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Post by: SarisKhan
Jimsolo wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.
If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.
Seems Ranged D is the new black, but my own Dark Wraithknight is going to get all close and personal with a Glaive + Shield. I wanted it to be an unkillable solution to Imperial Knights and deathstars so that load-out is awesome to me.
Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.
Regardless, I'm using Eldar allies myself to plug holes in my DE army so I'm not subject to the same shortcomings a pure army would be.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Eldar or Harleqins bringing Psychic Shriek are going to be the best way for DE to handle bikes and WKs, I think. TGLs and PGLs will help too, but aren't as effective at taking advantage of the DE's massed Ld negatives as Shriek is.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Jimsolo wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Yeah I hate how DE get fethd over by the WK. More than likely , players will use the range type(becuase range D is much better than CC D). I hate having to ignore it, but we cant do anything to it without sacrificing alot of points to kill it.
If it goes range, then Ravagers would be our best defense against it. Maybe a fighter or bomber. Our DL will have to be used to try and kill it asap or we can play the objective game and stop him from moving ll ovver the board.
You think range will be more prevalent than CC? I assumed people would prioritize the Invuln save.
Yes, I think having range D might be what more players would use(hard to confirm with the codex). If players do use him as a CC D monster, then I honest would prefer that. Means He wont be shooting 3-4 units a turn and I can just avoid him a little easier since he will really ony be able to assault and kill 1 unit a turn.
Ravagers with with DL are still not a bad option. They can fill a multi role for us. I will play test against my friend (who is a eldar player) and his WK and bikes. I will run 3 ravagers, 2 with DL, 1 with dissy's. I will update you guys on how it works.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Red Corsair wrote:Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take
True. It kind of feels like the Imperium, Chaos, and various Eldar are becoming most efficient when fielded together. Tau, Orks, and Necrons are the solo armies these days. I hemmed and hawed, but eventually decided to just run with it.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Also, It would be easier to take allies; But im one who likes to take some challenges and not use allies. Against Eldar, it will be a uphill battle ,yes. But not impossible.
I pick ravagers because they can also fill a anti tank role for a all comers list. As far as everything else, I will just to make some adjustments.
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Post by: FearPeteySodes
Red Corsair wrote:Lets be honest, we were best off before allying in CWE but this release basically forced our hands. Being forced one way never feels good, it also feels crappy when your favorite army, DE, are more or less the handicap on the CWE allies you take
Agreed, I had always intended to build a wraith ally but that was more for fun and change ups. Making it mandatory as you say for sure takes some steam out.
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Post by: syypher
Hey guys! I've been thinking about possibly trying out DE... can anyone start me off with what a competitive DE list looks like? (Just pure DE) I really have no where to look at since I haven't seen any placing very high in recent national tournaments.
TLDR: What does a competitive 1850 tournament pure DE list look like?
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Post by: whembly
Start thinking about the Tantalus vs the scatbikes and all...
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?
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Post by: syypher
DaKKaLAnce wrote:Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?
What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
SarisKhan wrote:
Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.
If somehow they all get to rapid fire range...
12 S5 AP2 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 2/3rds fail feel no pain; .88 wounds from the raiders.
80 poison shots, twin linked. 8/9 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. 2.63 wounds.
12 poison shots (not twin linked) 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. .29 wounds.
So, 775 points of shooting kills half a wraith knight. Somehow, I don't think this is a solution.
I'm going to get one, as I feel left out of this whole LoW crowd, though I'm more likely to run my with the glaive or the suncannon, likely to run both with starcannons... because, reasons.
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Post by: SarisKhan
HawaiiMatt wrote: SarisKhan wrote:
Btw, if my math is correct, my 4 Raider gunboats and Archon's DT Venom would cause 1,6 unsaved Wounds after a single volley at full range. Assuming I'd be able to place all 4 Raiders within 12" from the WK that would be 2,9 unsaved Wounds. Not that bad.
If somehow they all get to rapid fire range...
12 S5 AP2 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 2/3rds fail feel no pain; .88 wounds from the raiders.
80 poison shots, twin linked. 8/9 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. 2.63 wounds.
12 poison shots (not twin linked) 2/3 hit, 1/6th wound, 1/3rd fail armor, 2/3 fail FnP. .29 wounds.
So, 775 points of shooting kills half a wraith knight. Somehow, I don't think this is a solution.
I'm going to get one, as I feel left out of this whole LoW crowd, though I'm more likely to run my with the glaive or the suncannon, likely to run both with starcannons... because, reasons.
Yeah, not exactly what I would call a cost-efficient solution, but at least they're an integral part of my army. If I happen to face a WK at least I've got a chance to inflict some damage.
Anyway, I've got my own slightly converted Dark Wraithknight, so... Skyrunner Farseer + two min units of Scatriders and hey! I've got a competitive army that's still mostly (69%) DE!
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
 syypher wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?
What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.
I honestly dont remember. I just know it was a beautiful army, and had the Talos formation and what looked like a few raiders(not sure what was inside). But I have a feeling the meta will shift with the new Eldar codex so I would hang tight and see who comes up with a plan to use DE in the new meta. Blasterborn in a venom seem to be the goto option for most list.
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Post by: Red Corsair
DaKKaLAnce wrote: syypher wrote: DaKKaLAnce wrote:Im surprised that there is not many DE list that win tournaments . I believe Frankie from frontline gaming has a good list. Did he finish well in the tournament he was in?
What does that list look like? I'm looking for a starting point for a 1850 competitive DE list.
I honestly dont remember. I just know it was a beautiful army, and had the Talos formation and what looked like a few raiders(not sure what was inside). But I have a feeling the meta will shift with the new Eldar codex so I would hang tight and see who comes up with a plan to use DE in the new meta. Blasterborn in a venom seem to be the goto option for most list.
Corpse thief claw, 3 razorwings, 2 single lamhaens in venoms for HQ's and 2 min warriors squads in venoms. Pretty army but kind of boring build to be honest. Could easily mix it up though.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Ok thank you!
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Post by: SkaredCast
The new WK is going to be a force to be reckoned with for sure. But easy allies with the eldar means also... ironically easy solutions to our problems. I like to see the full eldar race as an entire race... all three books as one! And corsairs from IA 11.
Pick and choose what you like to make it work for you. iMO.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Don't forget Covens, Harlequins, and/or Iyanden!
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Post by: Red Corsair
I think the hemlock might be the best tool vs a WK from the eldar book, between its psi shriek and two D scythes it should bring him down pretty quickly. I actually think those things are more offensive lol.
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Post by: Solar Shock
I've wanted to run a hemlock for ages a ghost plane? yes please! conversions are a go-go! flamepyre phoenix combined with some vampire counts stuff
As for dealing with scatbike spam. I hear the banshee mask now prevent overwatch and confers. So im thinking an autarch on bike with the mask, in a unit of reavers, charge in and tie them up, HnR, repeat. Not always going to be effective, but being able to prevent overwatch will be one hell of a party trick!
wyches who ignore overwatch? well that's what they should have done in the first place! Beaststar that ignores overwatch? hellions who ignore overwatch? in a huge blob for getting off multicharges?
You could really make some tau players cry when you explain that your large multi-assaulting blob which about to tie up most of his list is ignoring his army-wide overwatch
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Post by: Lord Blackscale
Solar Shock wrote:You could really make some tau players cry when you explain that your large multi-assaulting blob which about to tie up most of his list is ignoring his army-wide overwatch
That is pure gold!
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
The hemlock flier might be our cheapest /most effecient solution aginst the WK. He will be shooting 2 D weapons at him,and can use Shriek to inflict more damage.
Stack it with Jimsolo's Freakshow list , and you will be inflicting wounds that only a Fnp can stop.
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Post by: SkaredCast
Had my first real game with a couple of gun boats.. with night shields. I had a lot of fun with them... one got blasted off the table, the other survived and was pivotal late game.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?
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Post by: pesce5279
Jimsolo wrote:Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?
I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.
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Post by: Red Corsair
pesce5279 wrote: Jimsolo wrote:Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?
I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.
I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Red Corsair wrote:pesce5279 wrote: Jimsolo wrote:Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?
I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.
I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.
And a monumental points cost. Automatically Appended Next Post: To clarify: for DE, you have to take troops anyway. To my mind, a Venom-borne squad of warriors is even more susceptible to the templates than the raider, since they have half as many guys to take the wounds. At least the squad in the raider can't be wiped out entirely by a single template. (And the force field doesn't protect the guys inside, alas.) While you do get more shots, on average, with the venom, those shots aren't twin-linked, and sacrifices the capacity for another anti-tank or anti-terminator weapon in your army.
The first couple template heavy armies fixed my little red wagon, that's for sure, but since then I've learned that cowardice is the better part of valor, and to just run from template bearers (most of whom I can outpace). Deep Strikers are a pain, that's for sure, but the fact that your raiders are the juiciest target is something to use to your advantage, since you almost certainly know who they're coming after.
The only advantage the venom has over the raider is the force field (a mediocre advantage at best--nice once in a while but certainly not something you can count on) and a higher anti-infantry capacity than the raider, an advantage that is virtually negated by a pack of murderous warriors.
I love (LOVE) venoms, don't get me wrong. But for troops, I vastly prefer 2-3 gunboats.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Jimsolo wrote: Red Corsair wrote:pesce5279 wrote: Jimsolo wrote:Night Shield/Splinter Rack gunboats are my bread and butter in the Troops department. Absolutely amazing. What's your specific gunboat recipe? You use any special/heavy weapons?
I'm with you. My 1500 pt list consists of 3 boats (shields/racks/lance) with 10 stock warriors.
I am with neither of you, my primary opponents all love template weapons on mobile platforms. Drop pods, flyrants and torrent flamers... Gun boats absolutely suck for their cost against armies equipped with these things. Pretty much every book in the game can splash this type of unit as well and honestly should. Your much better off 90% of the time using venoms for your poison shots. The best hands down splinter boat I have used is a raider loaded up with Sslyth, you can get durability, loads of firepower and a hammer counter assault unit in one stop.
And a monumental points cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To clarify: for DE, you have to take troops anyway. To my mind, a Venom-borne squad of warriors is even more susceptible to the templates than the raider, since they have half as many guys to take the wounds. At least the squad in the raider can't be wiped out entirely by a single template. (And the force field doesn't protect the guys inside, alas.) While you do get more shots, on average, with the venom, those shots aren't twin-linked, and sacrifices the capacity for another anti-tank or anti-terminator weapon in your army.
The first couple template heavy armies fixed my little red wagon, that's for sure, but since then I've learned that cowardice is the better part of valor, and to just run from template bearers (most of whom I can outpace). Deep Strikers are a pain, that's for sure, but the fact that your raiders are the juiciest target is something to use to your advantage, since you almost certainly know who they're coming after.
The only advantage the venom has over the raider is the force field (a mediocre advantage at best--nice once in a while but certainly not something you can count on) and a higher anti-infantry capacity than the raider, an advantage that is virtually negated by a pack of murderous warriors.
I love (LOVE) venoms, don't get me wrong. But for troops, I vastly prefer 2-3 gunboats.
Well your breaking the number one principle for DE longevity, that is if you want to have staying power either go high toughness/multiple wounds or go MSU. Your claiming that Sslyth are expensive but per point warriors in a gun boat are more expensive for their durability and damage output. A gun boat squad costs you 80 for the scrubs plus 85 for the raider. 165 points for a squad whos best utility comes from being within 12" of the enemy which is the sweet spot for their template weapons to strike. Consider 4 Sslyth in a venom now, 165pts and dumps out 12 shots from 36" or 24 shots at 18" and the occupants still provide 8 T5 wounds with FnP turn 1 AND they are awesome at assaulting objective squatters. Lets not assume our opponents are stupid, most light infantry like guard vets, scouts, pathfinders or even lictors have stealth and will be in cover meaning going to ground can ruin our day trying to shoot them off that maelstrom point we need, assault on the other hand is the BEST way to clear them off. Thats something warriors suck at. For the sake of this argument I assume the DE warriors lack obsec since 90% of the time they're coming from a RSR detachment, this makes objective clearing much harder. using splinter racks your also marrying the raider to the occupants, instead of getting 4 objective grabbers your getting 2 for twice the cost since your almost never intentionally going to leave the raider. In 6th I was using them off and on, but the introduction of maelstrom and 'No Escape' sealed their fate for me personally.
If your using kabalites you want to keep them cheap and split your enemies focus. Put them in venoms and either use range to survive or DS them and disembark into terrain for long range objectives forcing your enemy to shoot down TWO targets. None of this btw even considers your soul fright strategy (which I agree is a fun one) making them and their raider yet more expensive and a bigger target but also less PGL's overall. I also love venoms with chain snares, possibly my favorite vehicle change in the new book since tank shock, unlike soul fright, can target ATSKNF.
Just my take anyway, this coming from a guy with 90 warriors and 7 raiders btw lol.
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Post by: Frozocrone
What's the best way to deal with a Wraithknight and Gargantuans in general (aside the obvious crying in a corner..)
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Post by: Deamon
Frozocrone wrote:What's the best way to deal with a Wraithknight and Gargantuans in general (aside the obvious crying in a corner..)
Adding some eldar ally with D-Weapons (Like WG with D-Scythe in raider with WWP archon)
In a pure DE list... I realy don't know. Are GMC fearless? If need a fear bomb could do the trick.
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Post by: blaktoof
I think grots are still useful against a gargantuan creature, talos wich ichor injectors too.
Ichor injectors are not poison weapons, they have fleshbane so they still wound a GC on a 2+, the talos will also ignore the armor save. Any rolls of 6 have ID, which against a GC causes d3 wounds instead of 1.
9 grots[315pts] on charge will average 18hits, which will cause ~3 6's and 12 other wounds. Resulting in an average of 6 wounds unsaved before stomp attacks.
2 talos with ichor injectors will average 4 hits, since they have smash the Wk will not get any saves and with wounding on 2+ due to fleshbane and 6's causing d3 wounds there is a very good chance to outright kill a WK, a corpsethief claw mobbing a WK that had 3 ichor injectors in it would give a very high chance to outright kill a WK in 1 round before stomps.
Also reavers with rending are a good way to put some easy wounds on a WK, if it is already hurt from something a squad of 9 reavers with caltrops would average ~ 3 rends and 1 other wound to be saved from HoW, which could finish off a hurt WK pretty handily.
Blasters/Daklances are still useful. Wound half the time, ignore armor save. Dropping some blasterborn on a WK will see it lose 2-3 Wounds followed with some charging reavers or grots, or talos with Ichor= profit.
I think the key is trying to get your opponent to extend with its WK to do something, and then bullying it when its out of cover or unsupported.
Honestly I think corpsethief claw or grots are the best choice from pure DE forces.
GMC are fearless, so fear bomb wont do much.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Farseer, warlock, 3x3 bikes, vyper + FIVE WRAITH KNIGHTS is 1803. That leaves points to gets some scatter lasers on the bikes. I'd go with 2 w/cannons, 2 w/ suncannons and 1 with sword.
That gives the 3 on point invul saves, and lets the 2 in back get cover.
Between Invul and Feel No Pain, most of your solution will fall flat.
Grots are bad because they don't get Ichor Injectors, only the Talos have the option. Grots are wounding on 6's, which does instant death (D3 wounds ignore FnP, but doesn't bypass armor). After armor saves, you're looking at only getting 1 unsaved wound through. So D3 wounds. If Grots don't get lit up on the way in, or don't get face pounded by the Wraith Glaive.
Psychic shriek from allies, and MSU to limit losses is the only answer.
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Post by: blaktoof
you are correct on the grots, I blame psuedophedrene on thinking they had ichor injectors.
With flesh gauntlets 10 grots on the charge would average 20 hits, 3 wounds. One would get through and cause d3 wounds, because they rolled a 6 to wound so all the wounds are ID.
However the wraith knight isnt rocking distort cannons and wraithglaive, so its either a big assault threat, or a shooting threat with stomps.
I would feel pretty okay with charging grots at a WK. On average they will still tear a Non glaive Wk apart in 2-3 turns and suffer a few losses. Coven grots with zealot would average 30 hits instead of 20, which is likely 5 wounds, 2 failed saves is 2-6 wounds on the first round. If the WK is double ranged D it will not be putting out much hurt outside of stomps. The wraith glaive, if the rules are the same is only hitting on average 1-2 times.
I would much rather see a WK than an IK as a coven player.
and corpse thief claw with 3+ ichor injectors would still tear a Wk apart in one go without abyssmal rolling. But then anything with bad rolling, will fail- even psychic shriek.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
The part you're missing is that your ways of killing a WK involve getting into combat with it. You move 6, he moves 12 and ignores terrain.
If he's shooty, he's going to back away firing until he thinks he can take you. If he's melee, he'll soften you up first, then come in. He is hitting on 4+, with 5 attacks, striking first; + HoW and stomps.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Psychic Shriek, Laugh of Sorrows, or Mirror of Minds can both be good, especially if the target is in range of the Mask of Secrets or the Armor of Misery. Mirror of Minds is great if you've got negatives stacked on the WK, since it doesn't even care if the wound is saved. It keeps going until the WK beats the d6+Ld check or dies.
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Post by: sweetbacon
blaktoof wrote:you are correct on the grots, I blame psuedophedrene on thinking they had ichor injectors.
With flesh gauntlets 10 grots on the charge would average 20 hits, 3 wounds. One would get through and cause d3 wounds, because they rolled a 6 to wound so all the wounds are ID.
However the wraith knight isnt rocking distort cannons and wraithglaive, so its either a big assault threat, or a shooting threat with stomps.
I would feel pretty okay with charging grots at a WK. On average they will still tear a Non glaive Wk apart in 2-3 turns and suffer a few losses. Coven grots with zealot would average 30 hits instead of 20, which is likely 5 wounds, 2 failed saves is 2-6 wounds on the first round. If the WK is double ranged D it will not be putting out much hurt outside of stomps. The wraith glaive, if the rules are the same is only hitting on average 1-2 times.
I would much rather see a WK than an IK as a coven player.
and corpse thief claw with 3+ ichor injectors would still tear a Wk apart in one go without abyssmal rolling. But then anything with bad rolling, will fail- even psychic shriek.
Yeah, this is yet one more reason why the DE codex is so frustrating. The only weapon we have that can sort of deal with WK's in CC, the Ichor Injector, can only be taken by Talos and Urien. Urien will get crushed if he fails one 4+++ and to kill it with Talos, you'd probably need a full Corpsethief to stand a chance which is twice as many points as the WK. If Grots could take Ichor Injectors, I think they would be a solid option, but obviously DE can't have nice things because GW hates us.
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Post by: SkaredCast
So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...
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Post by: extremefreak17
SkaredCast wrote:So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...
Yeah ravagers are not that great at all. Consider the crimson hunter is only hit on 6s too and has skyfire.
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Post by: Homeskillet
SkaredCast wrote:So. I am considering switching out my three ravagers for the three crimson hunters formation from the eldar codex. Vector Dancer, Preffered enemy flier, sunder and an extra str 8 shot per tank for about the same cost as a ravager with night shields... oh and a stock 4+ cover...
Yeah expect to see lots of those formations in tournament play.
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Post by: blaktoof
HawaiiMatt wrote:The part you're missing is that your ways of killing a WK involve getting into combat with it. You move 6, he moves 12 and ignores terrain.
If he's shooty, he's going to back away firing until he thinks he can take you. If he's melee, he'll soften you up first, then come in. He is hitting on 4+, with 5 attacks, striking first; + HoW and stomps.
HoW from 1 model is obviously the least of the worries despite being at I10 and S10, stomps go at I1 so the talos/grots will strike before stomps, but yes an I5 wraithknight will strike first. If it is kitted out for assault, its shooting will be not so hot, if it is kitted out for shooting its assault will be not so hot.
The point you make about movement is very important, as most likely it can kite you around the table for a good bit of the game before it is caught. However an assault Wk not assaulting and shooting at grots is a waste of a WK. Some assault WKs will only have the shuriken catapults, so will only be shooting at 12" range, which is assault range for the grots or WK. The shooting from that on average will result in .33 wounds per turn of shooting. If they upgraded to say scatter lasers, it would average 1.2 wounds per shooting, so maybe would kill 1 before it gets charged.
Killing a Wk in psychic combat is possible, but even with stacking negative modifiers (which require you to be well within charge range..) Lets say you can stack up to -4 [armor of misery, and mask are within range] LD on the WK with a shadowseer and somehow none of the units you need to pull it off get gibbed. The WK is now LD 6 (10-4) Shadowseer is LD 10.
Said shadowseer has about a 1/3 chance to have one of the phantasmancy powers. Or can pick psychic shriek
For psychic shriek:
You roll 2 warp dice, hope one is 4+ (25% chance to fail) Most likely you will throw more warp dice. If you roll two dice the odds of periling are 3% If you roll three dice the odds are about 7%. The chances of failing on two dice is 25% on Three Dice its 12.5%
Some people play that witchfires being shooting attacks require to you roll to hit, since that is the rules... if you are playing in such a tournament you have a 1/3rd chance to fail this step by missing.
Your opponent can attempt to deny the power. This of course depends on how many success you have, and how many dice the opponent wants to throw, as well as any other special things like they have someone that grants adamantium will.
You now have to roll dice. On average you will roll a 10 on 3d6. The Wk is LD (10-4)=6 So you have done 4 wounds.
But wait.
as a Gargantuan creature it has FnP. 4 unsaved wounds * .33 chance to negate from FnP is now 2.8 wounds.
If it has a scatter shield it gets an invulnerable save as well, which would modify that from 2.7 wounds to 1.7 wounds. Lets be nice and say 2.
It has 4 wounds left.
not really very effective, considering you have a lot of tests which you have to not fail, albeit the chance for each one is in your favor, then it results in an average of 2-3 wounds done and your models giving the modifiers are all in shooting/charge range.
Mirror of minds is the best bet, however it is WC 2 and a focussed witchfire, the wounds can be saved through FnP and Invulnerable saves, however if you get the power to go off you essentially have to roll a 3 or higher to keep trying to wound. If you roll a 1 the Wk at -4 would need a 5,6 and if you roll a 2 it would need a 6 to end the power. This however does mean that there is a 1/6 chance every time you try to wound that the power is ended. The end result is on "mathhammer" average you would have 5 chances to wound, each one the Wk would get a FnP and possible Inv save, resulting in on average doing 3.3 wounds to a non shield Wk and 2.2 wounds to a shield Wk. Not much better than psychic shriek, but you can do it from 24" instead of 18" and given the 1/6 nature of it ending you have a better chance to actually have a "high result" and kill the WK than Psychic shriek or laugh of sorrows. I.e. it has a large curve of chance to do high damage, but like the other powers its average damage sits at about 2-3 wounds done after FnP and possible Inv saves.
I did not factor Inv saves into the assault results for grots because the Wk Will pick armor save over the 5+, and if they roll a 6 to wound [the only result that can wound] it is ID and negates FnP.
I did not factor in inv saves or FnP for talos, some of the wounds at str7 would not have Id and would be Inv save + Fnp negated.
I agree the talos grot solution is not amazing, but it is actually better than most psychic options as it has the weight of probability backing it instead of relying on passing a bunch of tests to do mediocre damage one time, and then most likely getting shot/smashed/strikedowned stomped out by a WK that a psyker and any possible accompanying unit may suffer. The talos will of course fare better as they get FnP and wont be Ided, the grots [with the exception of 1 result on the grot formation table] will be T5 and insta gibbed unless they have eternal warrior, which is possible if from a coven formation turn 5+ with certain characters in the unit. A charging Wk with D assault weapon will be killing on average 3 grots on the charge if they do not have EW or Toughness 6[most likely] before stomps, 7 grots attacking back, assuming no upgrades would see 11 hits, 16 if they had zealot. Which would be 2 wounds before saves, maybe 3 if zealot. FnP would be negated due to ID from flesh gauntlet so a .66 chance or 100% chance on average to cause an ID wound that does d3 wounds. If they have zealot that is an average of 2 wounds even with the WK charging, which is the same as the average for most of the psychic powers if they make it to the resolve step. If you manage to get the charge off with grots, not an impossible feat, they will get struck first but will only be looking at 1.68 ID wounds, or 2 models killed on average, leaving 8 with 32 attacks. 16 hits(resulting in d3 wounds at the end of combat average) or 24 hits with zealot (resulting in d3 wounds + 50% chance of d3 more wounds at end of combat) which is better odds than any of the psychic methods, but yes I give you it is harder to catch a WK in assault with models that move 6 and charge 2d6 than for a Wk to catch or avoid same models- but not impossible.
Honestly I think all of the solutions are pretty lackluster, but psychic mojo isn't really shining ahead of the others.
I think there are some other options too-
I think getting of fog of dreams, if you get the power, would be pretty rough on a WK.
It is WC 2, but has no to hit roll and is a malediction. The Wk would only be able to fire snap shots and would hit on 6's in assault, pretty much negating it as a threat outside of the single HoW and stomping.
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Post by: Jimsolo
It's an A-priority target. I think trying to find a solution which destroys it for equivalent points is throwing good money after bad.
I think a far more effective strategy is to treat it like the high priority it is. My current plan is as such:
1. Maneuver with the understanding that #3 is coming. Position or plan to minimize the damage.
2. Dogpile the Wraithknight.
3. Suffer a little beating from the less threatening parts of his army you ignored.
Killing the WK doesn't concern me. It's paying the price for all the attention you pay him; that's my real worry.
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Post by: blaktoof
I think that's a wise statement jimsolo.
Often DE do best matching our worst against an enemies best, and our best at their second best and then bullying things.
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Post by: Red Corsair
WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Red Corsair wrote:WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.
It can split fire, which is a problem for MSU. It can deal with a venom or two on it's way to beat face against whatever it wants to kill.
My issue is the hard counters.
Wraith Knight hard counters Grots and MC's.
Crimson Hunters hard counter our flyers.
Scatterbikes hard counter everything else.
Normal Bikes are still awesome as MSU objective grabbers.
What's our angle? I'm not seeing how a tailored DE list isn't going to have an uphill battle against a Eldar TAC list.
-Matt
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Post by: Homeskillet
HawaiiMatt wrote: Red Corsair wrote:WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.
It can split fire, which is a problem for MSU. It can deal with a venom or two on it's way to beat face against whatever it wants to kill.
My issue is the hard counters.
Wraith Knight hard counters Grots and MC's.
Crimson Hunters hard counter our flyers.
Scatterbikes hard counter everything else.
Normal Bikes are still awesome as MSU objective grabbers.
What's our angle? I'm not seeing how a tailored DE list isn't going to have an uphill battle against a Eldar TAC list.
-Matt
I agree, definitely seems like an uphill battle initially. Although if we can get some massed darklight on the WK and get him out of the way, our Haemonculus Covens units should have a field day in assault with those jetbikes. Even if they don't quite get into assault, just getting close enough to trigger Freakish Spectacle would be great; just have to hurt them enough to cause a LD test. I'm actually a little excited to try my hand against the new Eldar, even if just to confirm how bad it's going to suck getting whooped by them.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
Ok for the WK.... would it be a bad idea to have urien with a squad of wyches go after it? the wyches to give the 4++ in CC(assuming most players would want to make it ranged WK) Urien will be the one trying to kill it with his fleshbane and ID on 6's. Grots will have no save at all against the WK , so no reason to use them.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Good idea vs the Wraithknight, bad idea vs the Eldar army. That Raider will get shot down by massive amounts of strength 6 shots, then the naked wyches torn apart. Even if the Wyches aren't torn apart, when walking they have no chance in hell of catching a Wraithknight unawares.
Also, how many points is this unit? I'd guess at least 300pts including Raider. That Wraithknight costs the same, but is infinately more useful vs a variety of targets, while your Urien Wych squad is only capable of tarpitting the Wraithknight, That doesn't sound fair to me.
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Good idea vs the Wraithknight, bad idea vs the Eldar army. That Raider will get shot down by massive amounts of strength 6 shots, then the naked wyches torn apart. Even if the Wyches aren't torn apart, when walking they have no chance in hell of catching a Wraithknight unawares.
Also, how many points is this unit? I'd guess at least 300pts including Raider. That Wraithknight costs the same, but is infinately more useful vs a variety of targets, while your Urien Wych squad is only capable of tarpitting the Wraithknight, That doesn't sound fair to me.
Well we must accept the fact there is nothing fair when playing against the new eldar codex.
This might be Endtimes 40k for all we know.
The loadout is just one option that you can use, of course it would require lots of support from the list you make with it. But DE really dont have many options against is except for DL spam. Which btw, DL ravagers (to my surprise) work very well against the WK. I used 2, and only lost 1 , the other was destroyed later, but that was from my poor judgement.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
I've played against the new eldar and while i lost, it wasn't a total stomp and i did kill the Wraithknight with my Beta Strike. It got caught between armour of misery, mask of secrets and freakish spectacle then a Psy-Shriek. It took 6 wounds from that! The rest were plinked away via Dark Lances and desperate splinter weapons, but it took almost my entire army to do it. It shouldn't take my entire army to do it!
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Post by: DaKKaLAnce
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I've played against the new eldar and while i lost, it wasn't a total stomp and i did kill the Wraithknight with my Beta Strike. It got caught between armour of misery, mask of secrets and freakish spectacle then a Psy-Shriek. It took 6 wounds from that! The rest were plinked away via Dark Lances and desperate splinter weapons, but it took almost my entire army to do it. It shouldn't take my entire army to do it!
I was able to kill it turn 3. I tried not to Invest in shooting the WK too much. I ran 3-6 man squads of reavers(these guys are MVP for sure), 3 ravagers(2 with DL and 1 with dissy's no NS).
I ran some gunboat warriors, who did alright but did not really shine. The Windriders are just insanely good, But under the pressure my bikes gave him made it much easier to keep him busy.
I have a razorwing, he was able to kill a few bikes, but other than that did nothing. The game was a Tie(last 2nd point grab by the reavers  ) But it was clearly an uphill battle I was surprised to have survived (for the most part).
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Post by: whembly
Beastsquad with the birdies... can it bring down the WK? Doesn't it's rending auto-wound?
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
 whembly wrote:Beastsquad with the birdies... can it bring down the WK? Doesn't it's rending auto-wound?
T3 units with 3 wounds are just asking to get scatter lasered off the table, and really don't like the S6 AP4 (or remove from play) stomps.
So far, our won success is using harliquins and psychic powers? Ouch.
What if he had a 2nd Wraith Knight?
I'm starting to think the toughest eldar is going to be 2 well supported knights.
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Post by: blaktoof
I was looking at the birdies, they get a lot of rending attacks, but are WS2, ironically the fear aspect of the WK is not much of a factor for them hitting since WS1 and WS2 both need 5's to hit.
12 Flocks=240pts
6 attacks each on charge, 72 attacks need 5's to hit. 24 hits, average of 4 rends. Keep in mind on the upper end you do have an 33% chance to roll 8 rends, but on the low chance a 33% chance to roll 2 rends...
They will ignore armor but the knight will get possibly a shield save, and or FNP.
The problem with the flocks is the stomps, 2-5 is str6 which is IDing the swarms, and of course 6 is bad. so 84% of the stomps will probably gib each base they hit.
I still dont think harlequins is reliable, the odds of pulling off any LD based wound removal is less than 50% when you factor in rolling to harness, rolling to hit, denying, FnP, Inv saves. After all that you are looking at averaging 2-3 wounds even with a large (-4ld) penalty stacked on a WK. That's 2-3 psychic phases.
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Post by: SkaredCast
Well, I think that in a regular event (that usually limit LOW to 1) one wraithknight will not be super hard to deal with... nasty? Yes... but not horrible. Same as same as.
Against friends that run multiples... you can always refuse a game you know?
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Post by: Solar Shock
What about beastpacks that are mixed? throwing in some chimera, boost the Majority toughness so your not ID'd by scatterlasers, then when in base contact spread the birdies out? you could even add a banshee masked hawk winged autarch, can keep up, ignores overwatch for the unit and adds +1 to those reserve rolls for your Crimson hunter formations
How does the stomp work with removal? is it the models directly below? IE - can he target the birdies? or will it be at your choice? I've never faced stomp as of yet and don't know much about it.
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Post by: sweetbacon
I'm not sure the new beastpack would work, regardless of its configuration. The issue I'm seeing is that it's now only 12 models and the nerf to Khymera's invul. It is definitely taking casualties, if not being completely destroyed by Scatter Bikes, templates, D-Cannon barrages, etc. If any models do survive, then the WK will most likely be able to dispatch them easily with stomps. If we could still take 25 beasts in one unit and the Khymeras had their 4++, I would actually say running beasts at the WK would be a good solution due to their size which makes it harder for the WK to escape and their durability. However, as things stand now, I'm not sure that we have an efficient way to kill one, let alone multiples. Yes, Dark Lance Ravagers can take one down over several turns. But how often will they be shooting at full BS past the first turn? If the Eldar player is halfway decent, I suspect they would be one of the first targets for the Scatter Bikes.
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Post by: blaktoof
Updated first post with links to JimSolo posts on "Freakshow" armies.
Good info, with synergies listed for possible allies from other factions.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Thanks. Got a Freakshow list game in tonight against my second-worst-case army (Khorne Daemonkin) On the plus side, I Mirror of Minds-ed a Bloodthirster for four wounds to kill it. On the downside, I had so much trouble against his vehicles I almost lost anyway. (And he had a unit of Bloodthirsters with him that ran roughshod all over my business.)
The Shadowseer continued to prove his worth, but the Harlequin troupe kind of got kicked in the nuts.
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Post by: Solosam47
@jimsolo that freakshow list really is something to behold, ever since it first started getting mentioned I have loved the thought of a leadership destroying army.
On a different note, I have a bunch of hellions I got in a trade and while I never use them I really want to (even though the baron is no more ) I was wondering if they can ever be effective?
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Post by: Jimsolo
I've been trying to figure out the same thing! I have a stupid number of them (over five boxes' worth), and have been trying to figure out how to make them useful. I'm going to put up a YMDC poll about a rules question in regards to this, but I may have a potential answer. (A Fortress of Redemption filled with Hellions, is the long and short of it. You can fit twenty-five of them in, and every part of the building has an access point, I think. WIth their jump capacity, the Repel the Invader rule gets a little better for them. With Void Shields for the building and an Eldar gunline on top, there might be something to be had there...
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Jimsolo wrote:I've been trying to figure out the same thing! I have a stupid number of them (over five boxes' worth), and have been trying to figure out how to make them useful. I'm going to put up a YMDC poll about a rules question in regards to this, but I may have a potential answer. (A Fortress of Redemption filled with Hellions, is the long and short of it. You can fit twenty-five of them in, and every part of the building has an access point, I think. WIth their jump capacity, the Repel the Invader rule gets a little better for them. With Void Shields for the building and an Eldar gunline on top, there might be something to be had there...
Swap out the arms with extra wych arms. Call them beast masters.
-Matt
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Post by: Red Corsair
HawaiiMatt wrote: Red Corsair wrote:WK's are honestly only a concern if you play with a lot of MC's and Grots. If you just opt for MSU they are not really as big an issue. Still an issue, but more manageable. It's the idiotic amounts of ranged fire the new eldar can produce at minimal cost that's more concerning.
It can split fire, which is a problem for MSU. It can deal with a venom or two on it's way to beat face against whatever it wants to kill.
What's our angle? I'm not seeing how a tailored DE list isn't going to have an uphill battle against a Eldar TAC list.
-Matt
He can shoot multiple targets but you need to consider his loadout. 2 canons and two shoulder SL's is amazing but single shot sD isn't that scary for our transports or infantry, he has to hit and we need to fail our jink save, or if it's infantry best case for him he obliterates a scrub. The SL's are not much better, he'll land 3 hits and need 4's to strip HP's before we jink. He will be a PITA no doubt, but to think he will be running around like a gundam shooting down 4 targets every turn is a Wet dream. If they go sword and board it's all the better for us to ignore him, he will have more focused damage and higher durability.
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Post by: Solar Shock
I agree with corsair,
He will be a PITA, but only in regards that his capabilities to shoot 4 targets will be causing jink's. a SL alone isn't enough to really put the hurt on units. Still annoying we have an uphill battle simply due to codex power levels (assuming its as tough as it looks to be).
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Post by: Solosam47
With all this eldar love and S: D going around I hope the rumors about Vect coming back as a LoW are true, maybe he will bring duke with him aswell!
On the note of the wraithknight, yeah S: D is banging and we have an uphill battle but I am more worried about that split fire, is it game breaking? No but it is more annoying imo than the S: D. I really wanted to add eldar to my DE but after this new codex I jut don't want that bad ju ju on my soul, I'll stick to just some Harllie allies haha
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Post by: organicpesticide
I've been thinking about running a coven heavy list with an allied seer council. Imagine a unit of 10 grots assaulting knights that are misfortuned.
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Post by: Jimsolo
 Solosam47 wrote:With all this eldar love and S: D going around I hope the rumors about Vect coming back as a LoW are true, maybe he will bring duke with him aswell!
On the note of the wraithknight, yeah S: D is banging and we have an uphill battle but I am more worried about that split fire, is it game breaking? No but it is more annoying imo than the S: D. I really wanted to add eldar to my DE but after this new codex I jut don't want that bad ju ju on my soul, I'll stick to just some Harllie allies haha
You said the word Duke and I got breathless. I had to re-read it to see if it was an actual rumor (and my heart got broken all over again...). Automatically Appended Next Post: organicpesticide wrote:I've been thinking about running a coven heavy list with an allied seer council. Imagine a unit of 10 grots assaulting knights that are misfortuned.
Especially with dem Scissorhands.
Mmm-hmmm.
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Post by: Solosam47
@jimsolo haha sorry bout that, yeah I wish him and baron were still with us :(
On the hellion note I think what would be decent for them and easy for GW to fix is to just FAQ it stating hellions are jump pack infantry, I feel if they could move shoot move it would make them way better and maybe viable to some extent.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Restoring the Helglaives to their former glory would be a big start.
Honestly, I wish there were an 'Arena Hero' HQ we could take. A male wych who had the option for a Hellion Skyboard, a Beastmaster skyboard, and a bike, in addition to normal weapon options.
Maybe a 'Champion of the Arena' rule that gave him a different benefit depending on which of the transportation options he chose, or if he's on foot.
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Post by: Solosam47
I agree with you, one that had the option to take any of those, maybe some upgraded beasts as a bodyguard if you took the skyboard, but mainly to also interact with hellions to make them worth something. Dont get me wrong, the coven is cool and great and all, but I play DE for the speed, for the Kabals and the wytch cults! That's what drew me in to them, that and the pure psycho genius that is vect haha favorite fluff in 40k for a single guy that can be a real d**k
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Post by: Solar Shock
It just doesn't make sense fluffwise that we don't have hero HQs' or designable (aka bike, board etc) I mean the dark city is about carving your own path, through all the treachery, deceit and lies. Not to mention your combat prowess must be through the roof for you to remain top for long. Theres going to be so many archons, wyches and hameonculi that are in leagues of their own, using methods that they have honed for 1000s of years. I mean even scourges are going to have some absolute insanely skilled warriors, why was there no way to represent that in any form?
But OT, bringing eldar for psy support is always going to boost our units considerably, as we have no psychers, so in general our units are powered around that they don't have psy support. So once we do get it they gain a huge boon.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
Solar Shock wrote:It just doesn't make sense fluffwise that we don't have hero HQs' or designable (aka bike, board etc) I mean the dark city is about carving your own path, through all the treachery, deceit and lies. Not to mention your combat prowess must be through the roof for you to remain top for long. Theres going to be so many archons, wyches and hameonculi that are in leagues of their own, using methods that they have honed for 1000s of years. I mean even scourges are going to have some absolute insanely skilled warriors, why was there no way to represent that in any form?
But OT, bringing eldar for psy support is always going to boost our units considerably, as we have no psychers, so in general our units are powered around that they don't have psy support. So once we do get it they gain a huge boon.
At this point, you might as well call us Codex Eldar Taxi Service.
I was running a pirate themed list of dark eldar and eldar. Now I'm finding I only want these units:
1 unit of reavers to be led by Autarch
1-2 units of scourage w/haywire
1 small unit of medusae (very cheap for S4 ap3 template)
Venoms and Raiders
I'm struggling to find a use for anything else, compared to its eldar counterpart.
-Matt
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Post by: sweetbacon
Yeah, it's really hard not to have a raging case of codex envy towards our CWE kin these days.
I was just thinking that War Walkers, while solid by CWE standards, aren't getting a lot of buzz due to how great a lot of the other units in the new Eldar codex are (Scat Bikes now do essentially the same thing for cheaper and with more utility). But if War Walkers were transferred over to the DE codex with same stats and options, they would instantly be one of the top three units in our codex. Depressing.
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Post by: HawaiiMatt
sweetbacon wrote:Yeah, it's really hard not to have a raging case of codex envy towards our CWE kin these days.
I was just thinking that War Walkers, while solid by CWE standards, aren't getting a lot of buzz due to how great a lot of the other units in the new Eldar codex are (Scat Bikes now do essentially the same thing for cheaper and with more utility). But if War Walkers were transferred over to the DE codex with same stats and options, they would instantly be one of the top three units in our codex. Depressing.
How about units of falcons?
A Ravager with 3 lances is 125 points, AV11/11/10 open topped.
A fireprism with a pulse laser, lance and free catapults is 130 points, and AV12/12/10, a tank, can transport, and isn't open topped.
Just to add a little salt to the wound, falcons can be taken in squadrons, so the limitation of heavy support slots vanish, and they gain deep strike without scatter.
How about Dark Reapers? Seriously, why doesn't dark eldar have a dev squad choice? Our only option for heavy weapons in good numbers show up on jump troops; which makes no sense.
What's worse, reapers are cheaper, with options for BS5 and re-rolls to hit vs flying stuff.
We didn't get the short end of the stick, we're didn't even get a stick.
It's honestly very tempting to convert the DE to corrupted craftworld.
Very few things we get are remotely close to eldar, and we only have a handful of units that can do something that eldar don't do better.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Matt, it's starting to seem like you aren't really interested in Dark Eldar anymore.
Do you have any ideas on how to make thinks work, rather than why nothing will work?
It seems like you've been putting a lot of thought into it, so I'd be interested in any constructive insights you may have come to.
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