Yes, they can actually The Haemies can purchase WWP. Just straight up it's in the actual listing in the army book as a option look at the very bottom. They have to take different instruments of pain or something like that.
I'd rather take 5 hamies and allie in a shadow council for 5 spitiseers all with shriek. Just DS in and delete units with shrieks. Take the armor on one haemi and hope you can find a spot where he can ping the most/best units LD. You just need to find a way to open up armor first turn which isn't easy using the coven supplement as primary.
With 2 cads it becomes easier as eldar can pick up the slack.
Yeah, it's rather brutal unit if you add in Wraithguard w/ D - Scythes and Wraithcannons. I mean you can do it with just a Coven Cad and a Ally.
1 Haemonoculus w/ WWP 1 Iyanden Spiritseer
5 Wraithguard w/ 3 D Scythes, 2 Wraithcannons ( you have to go with this because you really can't shoot 1 unit with 5 templates on a Deep Striking unit , it's difficult sort of )
Total : 365
Not sure what you could use on the Haemy to make it even worse though cause that unit alone will take any other unit off the board. I can't actually think of much that would stand up to getting hit with a Psychic Shriek, plus the cannons plus the templates.
I mean probably a Imperial Knight. A knight could stand up to and something that had Flier.
Haemy gives -1 LD , Spirit Seers Get Psychic Shriek, then you get to hit them with 3 Templates that are AP2 , and 2 Wraithcannon shots.
It is impossible for one unit to use multiple shrieks, unless I am mistaken on pg 24 it says "no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase".
Some people take a different interpretation to that. It's a very contemptuous debate issue. Best to let it go but yes, if you play that way then it is not possible others do not. Even some of the bigger tournaments lean towards the interpretation that that is a reference to a specific model as there is no such thing as a "psychic unit" excepting individual models or brotherhood. It's a really big debate topic that goes either way. Just play it how your local agrees to play it.
I don't think you even need the Haemy CAD. Just take a Real Space Raider list. There's one that is similar in Army lists that is really good I think.
I actually really like the Dark Eldar army list and rules. I personally thnk people are underselling how powerful that Power from the Pain Chart is and how it will affect their games.
Real Space Raider seems to be where it's at though.
2 Archons
2 Iyanden Spirit Seers
Wraith Guard
Wave Serpents
As many fast attack as you can fit.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah, it's rather brutal unit if you add in Wraithguard w/ D - Scythes and Wraithcannons. I mean you can do it with just a Coven Cad and a Ally.
1 Haemonoculus w/ WWP
5 Wraithguard w/ 3 D Scythes, 2 Wraithcannons ( you have to go with this because you really can't shoot 1 unit with 5 templates on a Deep Striking unit , it's difficult sort of )
Haemy gives -1 LD...
Two Points:
1) Archron is cheaper and give -2 LD (armor of misery)
2) Wraithguard can't mix and match weapons.
Yeah, there's no real benefit for putting the Haemi in there over the Archon, as obviously the WG can't benefit from the PfP boost. The Archon's also a better shot and a better fighter, and you can kit him out to fulfil whatever role you need fulfilling or, as Matt said, you can just stick with the necessities and he'll be cheaper.
CKO wrote: It is impossible for one unit to use multiple shrieks, unless I am mistaken on pg 24 it says "no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase".
Yea which is why you run them as 5 units. Shadow counsel just means you get 5 as one HQ but they are all IC's still.
Ok so, time to seriously chime in here. I have had three games with the new codex. Loving it so far. The first game was a real space raid detachment vs eldar jetbikes army of doom. This game a unit of two talos were the stars of the match annihilating all in their path.
The second and third games, I got my hands on the new coven supplement, and it's fantastic! Not as a primary detachment but as a secondary detachment to a primary CAD of dark eldar. The first game I played a mauler fiend and nurgle spawn chaos marine rush army. The second a whitescar biker army with almost 40 bikes at 1500pts.
I have filmed both batreps and will post them up on the YouTube channel, the first one is already up.
A few things have become apparent, I love the two talos in a unit, they are awesome, I can't stress this enough! They rock, but watch out for grav guns . This is the list I was running :
Primary dark eldar CAD Succubus
5 mandrakes
2x5 kabalites with blasters in venoms with dual cannon
Venom with dual cannon
5scourge haywire blaster
Razorwing with lances
Ravager with lances and night shield
Coven detachment
Heamonculus liquifier and wwp Heamonculus
5 wracks w/liquifier, acothist with liquifier
3 grotesques, liquifier in a raider with a lance and night shields
2 talos in one unit.
1500pts
Still needs some fine tuning, but I have had a lot of fun with this list. I'm not sold on the ravager or the wracks. But the coven units with their pfp rules and their -1 leadership bubble is awesome!
As always, play testing is the true test.
SisterSydney wrote: Congrats. Also I keep hearing stories like yours that make it sound like the outcome of a Maelstrom game tends to be sorta random.
Yes the down side is that objectives can be a bit random but 40k is much better with Maelstrom. Maelstrom is a far more dynamic, interesting way to play 40k that punishes sitting and castling and rewards lists that can get out and make things happen. It also encourages CC and forces player to make more interesting choices.
Ah good catch on Wraith Guard. I didn't realize that.
Yes, the Archon is kind of a better choice over the Haemy to go with the Wraithguard as he can get a blaster and the Armour of Misery.Armour of misery works amazingly well I'm sure with Psychic Shriek and Terrify both from Telepathy.
Plus you get the Court of the Archon for each one which is pretty amazing.
For Mixing and Matching ...
What would you give a Autarch to go with a Reaver Jetbike Squad?
Hollismason wrote: Would he benefit from the squad's hit and run special rule? Wait how does a Autarch get 2D6 or 3D6 impact hits O_o.
He would indeed benefit. 2D6/3D6 rending HoW hits comes from the 2 or 3 Reaver models that you would give Cluster Caltrops to. I would also recoment taking a Fusion Gun on the Autarch and a couple special wepons on the Reavers as well. If you tank wounds on the Autarch's 3+/4++ you wont have to jink.
SkaredCast wrote: Ok so, time to seriously chime in here. I have had three games with the new codex. Loving it so far. The first game was a real space raid detachment vs eldar jetbikes army of doom. This game a unit of two talos were the stars of the match annihilating all in their path.
The second and third games, I got my hands on the new coven supplement, and it's fantastic! Not as a primary detachment but as a secondary detachment to a primary CAD of dark eldar. The first game I played a mauler fiend and nurgle spawn chaos marine rush army. The second a whitescar biker army with almost 40 bikes at 1500pts.
I have filmed both batreps and will post them up on the YouTube channel, the first one is already up.
A few things have become apparent, I love the two talos in a unit, they are awesome, I can't stress this enough! They rock, but watch out for grav guns . This is the list I was running :
Primary dark eldar CAD Succubus
5 mandrakes
2x5 kabalites with blasters in venoms with dual cannon
Venom with dual cannon
5scourge haywire blaster
Razorwing with lances
Ravager with lances and night shield
Coven detachment
Heamonculus liquifier and wwp Heamonculus
5 wracks w/liquifier, acothist with liquifier
3 grotesques, liquifier in a raider with a lance and night shields
2 talos in one unit.
1500pts
Still needs some fine tuning, but I have had a lot of fun with this list. I'm not sold on the ravager or the wracks. But the coven units with their pfp rules and their -1 leadership bubble is awesome!
As always, play testing is the true test.
I do enjoy your videos, especially since I am new to Dark Eldar! Congratulations on your win against the Craftworld What sort of missiles did you use for the Razerwing?
It's actually not that expensive really. Plus honestly he already comes stock with hay wire grenades which is amazing because you know he has grenades.
So this is the load out suggested above
Autarch w/ Banshee Mask, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun
Reapers x9 w/ 3 Caltrops, 3 Heat Lances( 219)
Total : 329 (9)
Total : 256 (6)
So if it did not jink you'd get , 3 ST6 AP2 , 1 ST8 AP2 (all melta) , then followed by 6 ST4 Rending HOW, then 3D6ST 6 Rending. Then the Autarch w/ his 5 ST6 attacks and they'd be at -5 so he'd probably go before them, with 6 it'd be 2D6.
It's a legitimate way to get a really decent HtH combat guy in with the reavers.
Well you can't have everything. I don't think artillery can move and fire, but
I think you can put Maugen Ra , a Archon w/ a Webway Portal, and 3 D Cannon support battery into one squad and deep strike it then fire, as Maugen Ra has relentless?
see hollis thats the crap I've been talking about. I'm trying to NOT collect DE, and then you go make up a combo with my favorite eldar character, Mr. Ra, you keep this up and i won't be able to say no!!
Hollismason wrote: Well you can't have everything. I don't think artillery can move and fire, but
I think you can put Maugen Ra , a Archon w/ a Webway Portal, and 3 D Cannon support battery into one squad and deep strike it then fire, as Maugen Ra has relentless?
Relentless doesn't transfer, which Mr. Ra has. Slow and Purposefully does transfer, but you can't get it.
So not 100% tactics related but it does affect the tactics I will use once my army is assembled. I noticed in the Wych box set it only gives you 1 of each set of wych weapon (1 pair of razorflails, one set of hydra gauntlets and 1 shardnet and impaler). Of course in a squad of 10 you can have 3 wych weapons in any combination. One of each just seems tedious so I'd want to stack 1 type in a squad.
So the questions is how are you guys equipping your wych squads? One of each? Saying screw you to stupid money gouging from GW (because that's what I see this lack of options in-box as) and don't run WYSIWYG or are you buying 3 boxes to equip 1 squad with three hydra gauntlets etc...
Since I'm not rich I'm thinking of doing one squad with razorflailsx3, 1 squad with hydra gauntletsx3 and my bloodbrides with shardnet and impalersx3.
I know wychs aren't terribly popular right now but what have you guys been doing for running them?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: So not 100% tactics related but it does affect the tactics I will use once my army is assembled. I noticed in the Wych box set it only gives you 1 of each set of wych weapon (1 pair of razorflails, one set of hydra gauntlets and 1 shardnet and impaler). Of course in a squad of 10 you can have 3 wych weapons in any combination. One of each just seems tedious so I'd want to stack 1 type in a squad.
So the questions is how are you guys equipping your wych squads? One of each? Saying screw you to stupid money gouging from GW (because that's what I see this lack of options in-box as) and don't run WYSIWYG or are you buying 3 boxes to equip 1 squad with three hydra gauntlets etc...
Since I'm not rich I'm thinking of doing one squad with razorflailsx3, 1 squad with hydra gauntletsx3 and my bloodbrides with shardnet and impalersx3.
I know wychs aren't terribly popular right now but what have you guys been doing for running them?
Go on ebay and buy the special weapons you want. They are probably $2 each but you get the ones you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, everyone is talking about how wwp and wraithguard are the hotness. Which an ap2 flamer really is hot. But is it really that much better than medusa's sp3 flamer? The wraiths are much more survivable but the medusa can be put into a raider making them much more mobile. As it stands once the wraithgaurd flames their unit they have a hard time doing much of anything else. Whats more flamers coming out of a raider have a large area to be positioned where there is issue with the wraith guards getting to use all 5 flamers the turn they drop because of being deployed in a circle. Also because medusa are 25pts instead of 42pts you can take a few more which makes them deadlier to everything that is not sv2+
So the big question is, are their enough sv2+ units and are wraiths that much more survivable?
Can we ignore Wave Serpents for the sake of discussion? It's like a real life general discussing the strategy with his assisstants and one of them constantly goes "They will just nuke your army". For the love of God, there exist other units and other armies in the game that can be dealt with.
CKO wrote: When you deepstrike in its considered combat speed right? Meaning the guys inside fire at full bs, right?
HawaiiMatt wrote: And then, the pure eldar open fire with the wave serpents, ignoring the cover save.
So much for being cool.
-Matt
This is just a silly point though. Nothing is cool if it's countered by the best codex using the best and most OP unit in the game? Come on, the conversation has to get past that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, everyone is talking about how wwp and wraithguard are the hotness. Which an ap2 flamer really is hot. But is it really that much better than medusa's sp3 flamer? The wraiths are much more survivable but the medusa can be put into a raider making them much more mobile. As it stands once the wraithgaurd flames their unit they have a hard time doing much of anything else. Whats more flamers coming out of a raider have a large area to be positioned where there is issue with the wraith guards getting to use all 5 flamers the turn they drop because of being deployed in a circle. Also because medusa are 25pts instead of 42pts you can take a few more which makes them deadlier to everything that is not sv2+
So the big question is, are their enough sv2+ units and are wraiths that much more survivable?
Couldn't you DS the wraiths down in a raider with the archon? Does the WWP transfer onto the transport? I know it transfers onto his unit, and that the raider states it transfers onto the unit as well (but thats still with scatter), but I dont think the WWP words anything specific?
Solar Shock wrote: Couldn't you DS the wraiths down in a raider with the archon? Does the WWP transfer onto the transport? I know it transfers onto his unit, and that the raider states it transfers onto the unit as well (but thats still with scatter), but I dont think the WWP words anything specific?
I don't think this works because the wraithguard are bulky. So a min squad of 5 would fill the raider and leave no room for the Archon.
Solar Shock wrote: Couldn't you DS the wraiths down in a raider with the archon? Does the WWP transfer onto the transport? I know it transfers onto his unit, and that the raider states it transfers onto the unit as well (but thats still with scatter), but I dont think the WWP words anything specific?
I don't think this works because the wraithguard are bulky. So a min squad of 5 would fill the raider and leave no room for the Archon.
But, otherwise, it would work I think, but only with a Venom. The Archon himself can take a Venom as a dedicated transport, which then is part of his unit and so benefits from the WWP. However, at that point, you're paying 35pts for just for non-scatter (as a Venom can DS normally) which, on a model with such a small footprint, is not worth it, in my opinion.
Solar Shock wrote: Couldn't you DS the wraiths down in a raider with the archon? Does the WWP transfer onto the transport? I know it transfers onto his unit, and that the raider states it transfers onto the unit as well (but thats still with scatter), but I dont think the WWP words anything specific?
I don't think this works because the wraithguard are bulky. So a min squad of 5 would fill the raider and leave no room for the Archon.
But, otherwise, it would work I think, but only with a Venom. The Archon himself can take a Venom as a dedicated transport, which then is part of his unit and so benefits from the WWP. However, at that point, you're paying 35pts for just for non-scatter (as a Venom can DS normally) which, on a model with such a small footprint, is not worth it, in my opinion.
But the reason you want non-scatter, is for the wraithguard templates. But as someone mentioned, wrathguard are bulky; therefore 2 slots, so a min squad of 5 in a raider already fill it, leaving no room for the WWP archon. So in a venom this is obviously also a no go.
But yeh, the dedicated transport for the archon is sweet. 20 pts more than a WWP, so its whether you really need the non-scatter on the unit and how mobile you need them. Im not too keen on D-scythe wraiths the more I look at it. Someone else already mentioned a pretty good point in that the medusae' eye beam template is pretty damn effective, which means you could put them into the venom with the archon and have a pretty nasty mobile unit. Or in a raider with some sslyth for more shooting too.
I think the wraithcannons would be more effective than the D-sythes simply due to range, any opponent is going to realise how nasty a WWP'd D-sythe unit is and act accordingly; attempt to kite and ignore while dealing with the rest of the army, or focus them down immediately. Atleast with the wraithcannons your likely to still be able to shoot stuff and not have them chasing units all over the board.
CKO wrote: After reading everyones ideas especially hollismason, who pointed out some powerful unique traits that only Dark Eldar have. I am going to start a new Dark Eldar army for sure, this codex gets two thumbs up from me! At the moment I am thinking about making a durable Dark Eldar list! Durable and Dark Eldar normally are not in the same sentence but I really think it is possible with this new codex, and with Power of Pain you benefit for making a durable list.
The list I am thinking about using will have Cronos with Spirit Probes and Urien Rakarth to give units a 5+ feel no pain save on the first turn and a 4+ save after that. The Cronos unit and beastmasters units with Urien Rakarth will start on the field, the monstrous creature unit has 9 toughness 7 wounds, all with a 3+ armor save, and a 4+ feel no pain save that is extremely durable even wave serpent spam will cry out loud facing that.
Remember that if you want durable DE, you are going to be using coven units anyway and those start with 5+ FNP stock. Use the coven PFP and you get fearless turn 2, or turn 1 if you have a haemi.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote: The webway works on anything the character is embarked on and the unit he has joined.
You could go serpent + Archon + 5 wraithguard + 1 other model.
If you go with a Raider, you're only left with 9 spots open, and the Wraithguard take up 2 spots each.
HawaiiMatt wrote: The webway works on anything the character is embarked on and the unit he has joined.
You could go serpent + Archon + 5 wraithguard + 1 other model.
If you go with a Raider, you're only left with 9 spots open, and the Wraithguard take up 2 spots each.
With a serpent you have to unload your wraithgaurd every time you want to shoot, then get back into it next turn to move and wait one more turn to unload and shoot again.
HawaiiMatt wrote: The webway works on anything the character is embarked on and the unit he has joined.
You could go serpent + Archon + 5 wraithguard + 1 other model.
If you go with a Raider, you're only left with 9 spots open, and the Wraithguard take up 2 spots each.
With a serpent you have to unload your wraithgaurd every time you want to shoot, then get back into it next turn to move and wait one more turn to unload and shoot again.
I think the point is more that you get a Wave Serpent. The WG stay out in the open like they would anyway, and then the Wave Serpent goes off and does what it does best.
Yeah... I'm sure something can be done about that 12 inch Debuff with Dark Eldar.
Also it's not been brought up but the Archon is able to purchase a Venom as a Dedicated Transport, which is a pretty good vehicle.
My Archon is going to ride in one. He's equipped with a Blaster and the Helm of Spite, so even though I'm well aware it's not an "optimal choice", he's still going to provide support to the rest of the army.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: So not 100% tactics related but it does affect the tactics I will use once my army is assembled. I noticed in the Wych box set it only gives you 1 of each set of wych weapon (1 pair of razorflails, one set of hydra gauntlets and 1 shardnet and impaler). Of course in a squad of 10 you can have 3 wych weapons in any combination. One of each just seems tedious so I'd want to stack 1 type in a squad.
So the questions is how are you guys equipping your wych squads? One of each? Saying screw you to stupid money gouging from GW (because that's what I see this lack of options in-box as) and don't run WYSIWYG or are you buying 3 boxes to equip 1 squad with three hydra gauntlets etc...
Since I'm not rich I'm thinking of doing one squad with razorflailsx3, 1 squad with hydra gauntletsx3 and my bloodbrides with shardnet and impalersx3.
I know wychs aren't terribly popular right now but what have you guys been doing for running them?
Go on ebay and buy the special weapons you want. They are probably $2 each but you get the ones you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, everyone is talking about how wwp and wraithguard are the hotness. Which an ap2 flamer really is hot. But is it really that much better than medusa's sp3 flamer? The wraiths are much more survivable but the medusa can be put into a raider making them much more mobile. As it stands once the wraithgaurd flames their unit they have a hard time doing much of anything else. Whats more flamers coming out of a raider have a large area to be positioned where there is issue with the wraith guards getting to use all 5 flamers the turn they drop because of being deployed in a circle. Also because medusa are 25pts instead of 42pts you can take a few more which makes them deadlier to everything that is not sv2+
So the big question is, are their enough sv2+ units and are wraiths that much more survivable?
It is worth it when you consider that they auto-wound and cause ID on a 6. This is extremely dangerous to units with high T and multiple wounds.
HawaiiMatt wrote: The webway works on anything the character is embarked on and the unit he has joined.
You could go serpent + Archon + 5 wraithguard + 1 other model.
If you go with a Raider, you're only left with 9 spots open, and the Wraithguard take up 2 spots each.
With a serpent you have to unload your wraithgaurd every time you want to shoot, then get back into it next turn to move and wait one more turn to unload and shoot again.
I think the point is more that you get a Wave Serpent. The WG stay out in the open like they would anyway, and then the Wave Serpent goes off and does what it does best.
But then you are stuck with wg on the ground and they just don't do anything after they flame one unit. That was the whole point of getting medusa in the raider, for mobility.
With the increase in MSU I don't think WWPWG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?
thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.
in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DEHQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.
Yeah... I'm sure something can be done about that 12 inch Debuff with Dark Eldar.
Also it's not been brought up but the Archon is able to purchase a Venom as a Dedicated Transport, which is a pretty good vehicle.
the 12" debuff only applies if that IC is in a shadow spectre squad according to its rules. You could put a WWP archon in with them that had some -ld funkiness tho.
blaktoof wrote: With the increase in MSU I don't think WWPWG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?
thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.
in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DEHQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.
What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.
blaktoof wrote: With the increase in MSU I don't think WWPWG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?
thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.
in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DEHQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.
What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.
I see nothing wrong with spending about 300points to nearly guarantee that you kill a unit, even if that unit is half your points. Most armies have one or two units that do all the heavy lifting, just aim for those guys. Or you can hunt warlords. There are many HQ units that may be cheap but give the army a lot of utility and are force multipliers so it is worth killing them off.
It's closer to 500 if you want to demolish something.
Archon w/ WWP Armour of Misery
Wraithguard x 5 w/ D Scythes
Iyanden Spirit Seer w/ Telepathy
Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Laser , what ever the hell they take I can't remember I think they're like 120
- 2 LD to something with in 6 inches, for Psychic Scream.
Why do you have a Wave Serpent, everything I've seen says a Independent Character has to disembark with a squad. Squad can just get the hell out. They'd just not be in the same unit anymore.
Pretty sure that -2 Extends out from the Wave Serpent if the Archon is inside it.
So.. by my count and the rulebook is not just like right next to me right now, you could leave the Archon in that Transport, measure out 6 from the hull this smash something to death. With the Wraithguard Disembarking w/ the Spirit Seer, that gives you plenty of room to manuevre perfect template placement.
Amid all the Fast Attack options we have available, I'm starting to like the aesthetic look of Hellions.
What would be the best loadout for them? I'm thinking a Helliarch and maybe a Stunclaw to IK characters in combat for 80 pts, but then again, for 10 points more you can get a Agoniser
blaktoof wrote: With the increase in MSU I don't think WWPWG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?
thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.
in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DEHQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.
What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.
5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.
blaktoof wrote: With the increase in MSU I don't think WWPWG are that great, against armies with low unit counts they are good, or deathstars, but against a MSU army people are talking about dropping close to 400pts of WG with d-scythes with an archon that is minimum 95pts, and a waveserpent which is what 110? Spiritseer, another 80?
thats 685pts without any other upgrades on the archon, which is the cost of a deathstar more or less. Dropping this to kill a 100-150pt unit in a MSU army is silly, as the wg+friends will be engaged, or massively killed the following turn.
in a 1500pt list thats half your army, in reserves in 1 unit, in a 1850 game its 35% or so of your army, so yeah against deathstars that are not invis you will hurt them bad, against anything else...you would have been better off taking 2-3 DEHQ with wwp+gear and trueborn w/blasters or medusae.
What is wrong with 1 archon with 5 scytheguard? Only ~300 points. Yes a lot of armies dont have anything worth 300 points, but you can completely neuter one unit and against MSU possibly live to tell the tail.
5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.
Having a wave serpent on the board isn't bad for avoiding tabling issues turn 1 v a dedicated alpha strike.
Also extends that Debuff. I think it's Objective Secured as well if you take it as the Dedicated Transport for Wraithguard that are bought as Troop Choice.
Frozocrone wrote: Amid all the Fast Attack options we have available, I'm starting to like the aesthetic look of Hellions.
What would be the best loadout for them? I'm thinking a Helliarch and maybe a Stunclaw to IK characters in combat for 80 pts, but then again, for 10 points more you can get a Agoniser
Get beast masters instead. They can move though cover and carry a power sword.
5 scythe guard is 210 archon is min 95 with WWP and nothing else at all. The issue is you cant just pickup 5 scytheguard unless you are playing unbound, you have to have an HQ somewhere and most likely its an iyanden list so the HQ is probably a spiritseer or farseer, so lets be real and say its ~400pts. If its not an iyanden list then you also need a troop unit somewhere for FOC purposes.
certainly you are going to need to take an Eldar HQ and possibly some troops if you want to have them not be unbound. Still it isnt like farseers are terrible units that people never take except in the concept of a tax. They also need not drop with the unit and can be somewhere else in the army.
Similarly DE have to have a troop choice to take an archon. 105 points for 5 warriors in a double cannon venom might be required, but isnt added into the cost of the drop unit.
Well, you could get Wraithguard, and their DT Serpent, OS by using a Spiritseer as the Eldar ally. As a tax he's only 70 pts but, he's ok buffing. Also, if you're willing to pony up the points, gi e him Shard of Anaris for guaranteed Fearless; roll him with Grotesques. This gets you:
Slight allied buffs.
OS Wraithguard.
OS Serpent.
Turn 1 Fearless Grots (that are already slow, ao they're not slowed by the Spiritseer).
Frozocrone wrote: Amid all the Fast Attack options we have available, I'm starting to like the aesthetic look of Hellions.
What would be the best loadout for them? I'm thinking a Helliarch and maybe a Stunclaw to IK characters in combat for 80 pts, but then again, for 10 points more you can get a Agoniser
Get beast masters instead. They can move though cover and carry a power sword.
I also really like the aesthetic of the hellions, especially since I'm building a wych army. To be honest I'm not sold on the stun claw. I'm trying to think of what characters you'd be challenging and anything that is multi-wound will probably have a decent save. The claw is only ap 6. Or they decline the challenge which is probably best case scenario cause then they won't fight at all. You go first but I just don't see this weapon having that great a chance of killing anything worthwhile. I could be wrong but atleast in my meta no one has any juicy targets I'd want to throw that against. And because it specifically states you have to use it in a challenge I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong) it will have ID on things like a carnifex, something I fight a lot and would love an ID weapon to go against. Power sword is alright cause you get the +1 atk but lose a strength, agoniser is sweet but 25 points is excessive IMO, if I had the spare 10 points though I'd take it in a heartbeat.
I also wonder about their attacks, they have 1 attack base with a two handed weapon that only gives them +1 str and ap 5. Strength 4 is kinda...meh really when you think about it it's essentially a marine smacking you with an ap 5 bolter stock. A marine that is toughness 3 with a 5+ save. I feel these guys don't pack enough punch for something so fragile. At least on paper these guys don't impress me much but maybe they will perform better than I expect. After all they do still get PfP and combat drugs and I find far too many people consider those when they say that wyches suck.
Having said all this I still plan on buying some and giving them a shot. Theoryhammer is one thing but actually using the models is another. Hell even if I lose and die horribly I can atleast say I went out with style right?
So what numbers would you take these guys in? They come stock at 5, and can go up to 20, gain no bonus special weapons though for having more (not like wyches). Helliarch is an auto-take in the squad though IMO.
Yeah don't know if it's been mentioned but the Archon with Armour of Misery, running around in a Venom Tanking shocking people with -2 LD is pretty boss.
Can Wave Serpent's tank shock?
Cause that'd be an added edition for leaving the Archon in the Wave Serpent then just fly around tank shocking things.
Plus if you tank shock units thats six inches of him is good to.
Actually that's hilarious because you know you can just move it toward a unit with him in it, then just tank shock it with another unit.
With all these massive LD debuffs running around, anyone looking into the grenade launcher potential? I am thinking of taking one or two just because... Thats a good lil chunk o potential pain to be dealt out on a large amount of units out there. 15/30 points isnt THAT heavy a tax for the potential shenanigans
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.
HawaiiMatt wrote: I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.
Take 1-2 detachment of 2x5 warriors, 1 Lhamaean, and 3x1 beastmasters. Hold the warriors in reserve and they have OBSEC
That is indeed hilarious I have been thinking that MSU based lists are gona be pretty awesome. Loads of cool combos with stuff like Maugan Ra, combined with 5 trueborn with spilnter cannons in a raider, for crazy amounts of poision shots and Maugan Ra's 4str 6 ap5 rending, pinning. May as well keep the dissie too.
Its a quite pricey unit, but in conjunction with other small units combined with ICs I really like the potential for massive fire output in DSing shooty lists.
So combined with HawaiiMatt's cheap unit spam you could balance out the costs to maintain unit count.
HawaiiMatt wrote: I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.
Take 1-2 detachment of 2x5 warriors, 1 Lhamaean, and 3x1 beastmasters. Hold the warriors in reserve and they have OBSEC
HawaiiMatt wrote:I was thinking Ulimate MSU spam.
Realspace Raider Detachment
2x1 Lhamaean as HQ's, 2x5 warriors as troops and 6x1 beastmasters as fast attack.
10 units for a total cost of 160 points.
Do that 10 more times.
That's 22 units of Lhamaeans, 22 units of 5 warriors, and 66 individual beast masters, with enough points left for a half dozen blasters or so in the warriors.
Yup, you've got 110 units on the table (198 models).
Depending on how you meta limits (or doesn't limit) the number/type of detachments you run, You could swamp the table with worthless units, forcing your opponent to massively over-kill and waste fire every time they pull the trigger.
Don't like break checks? No problem! Every time your shot at your 10 to 40 point unit is likely to be wiped out.
Don't like over-watch? No problem! You're not getting charged by a unit of 12, you're getting charged by 12 units of 1. Wow, looks like 11 made it in.
You'll have plenty of units left late in the game with Feel No Pain 5+, Furious Charge, Fearless and Rage.
The funniest part is that if you gave half of them venoms and half raiders w/ dark lances the army would actually be reasonably potent. You could always deploy the transport and worthless units separately.
What's the most efficient way to take that Kabalite Raiding Party that still allows for you to tag it onto a Real Space Raiders Detachment with 6 Fast Attack?
I did notice this and this is why.
Incubi w/ the Formation treat the turn 1 Higher, if you have a Haemonoculus w/ them thats 1 more turn. If you get off a Animus whatever 1 more turn.
So a 9 man squad of just Incubi in a basic Raider is 235, with the Haemonoculus that makes it 305 base.
That seems "expensive"
Until you realize that just base they're starting off with , Turn 3 Abilities, but wait.
You get Urien, so if he's with in 12 inches of anyone that's everything starting off with Turn 3 Abilities which is really crazy.
Hollismason wrote: What's the most efficient way to take that Kabalite Raiding Party that still allows for you to tag it onto a Real Space Raiders Detachment with 6 Fast Attack?
I did notice this and this is why.
Incubi w/ the Formation treat the turn 1 Higher, if you have a Haemonoculus w/ them thats 1 more turn. If you get off a Animus whatever 1 more turn.
So a 9 man squad of just Incubi in a basic Raider is 235, with the Haemonoculus that makes it 305 base.
That seems "expensive"
Until you realize that just base they're starting off with , Turn 3 Abilities, but wait.
You get Urien, so if he's with in 12 inches of anyone that's everything starting off with Turn 3 Abilities which is really crazy.
Would not take a Haemonculus with Incubi, no Fleet slows them down. Actually I wouldn't take that many Incubi to begin with, three or four, five most and a Klaviex for Rampage. In a Venom, due to low model count. Urien still works since he has a bubble for PfP.
That's a good point to stick just 5 in a Venom. That way he benefits from Rampage. Urien is a definite try and take but man that Formation is expensive.
Base cost is
Archon
Incubi
Court
6 Kabalite w/ Transport
Scourges
Hellions
Ravager
Total : 1010
Minimum which also comes with a tax for Real Space of like 200.
So there's not alot of room. It probably isn't worth it.
If you want to spam something why not venoms? taking minimum troops you can get 10 venoms for 750pts or 20 for 1500pts. 20 venoms can really put the pain just don't go up against vehicles.
Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway
6 Squads of Kabalite Trueborn Warriors w/ 2 Haywire Blasters, 3 Shredders , w/ Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons , tank shock thing is 165 I believe.
That's 12 Haywire BLasts
18 ST 6 Blasts
72 Poisoned Shots.
990 Total
I mean do you need all that Haywire is the question, it'd probably be just as useful to take Bareboned 4 Shredders on them. 4 ST6 blasts is good. If you could get some sort of Antiflyer that would be fine right there.
Hollismason wrote: Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway
That would be interesting, seems to make sense too, as trueborn, is an upgrade available to warriors. Only thing I dislike with that formation is the hellions (but then ive never liked hellions that much).
Hollismason wrote: Well supposedly you can upgrade the Kabalite Warriors to True Born and it doesn't affect the formation. I don't know about that one though , but I am pretty sure it works anyway
6 Squads of Kabalite Trueborn Warriors w/ 2 Haywire Blasters, 3 Shredders , w/ Venom w/ 2 Splinter Cannons , tank shock thing is 165 I believe.
That's 12 Haywire BLasts
18 ST 6 Blasts
72 Poisoned Shots.
990 Total
I mean do you need all that Haywire is the question, it'd probably be just as useful to take Bareboned 4 Shredders on them. 4 ST6 blasts is good. If you could get some sort of Antiflyer that would be fine right there.
Hollismason wrote: Oh yeah I keep forgetting those are scourges only which makes no sense.
trueborn with haywire blasters would be like wyches with haywire you'd just put em in a venom, but this time you'd only need to be within 24". Obviously the cost of the blaster would be limiting, but the need to not be in assault range is the balance to that imo.
I would say I think they have tried to limit the amount of haywire DE could spam.... but then I remembered the 6 FA slots in that detatchment I think its probably good they kept them off trueborn, but scourge only? but then who else would you give em to? Considering it seems more a kabal weapon than a coven and there arent really any other kabal units it would work in.
Hollismason wrote: Oh yeah I keep forgetting those are scourges only which makes no sense.
trueborn with haywire blasters would be like wyches with haywire you'd just put em in a venom, but this time you'd only need to be within 24". Obviously the cost of the blaster would be limiting, but the need to not be in assault range is the balance to that imo.
I would say I think they have tried to limit the amount of haywire DE could spam.... but then I remembered the 6 FA slots in that detatchment I think its probably good they kept them off trueborn, but scourge only? but then who else would you give em to? Considering it seems more a kabal weapon than a coven and there arent really any other kabal units it would work in.
how would 4 trueborn with haywire in a venom be any better than 4 scourges with haywire. The Scourges cost less!
yes, but 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters is 120. 5 trueborn with haywire balsters is 100, and the venom adds another 65.
I think both would be decent options, but I dont think trueborn would nessisarily be completely better or OP. They could have given trueborn haywireblasters and heatlances.
If it was going to be too much, they could have let them take haywire or heatlances as heavy weapons rather than special weapons
yes, but 5 scourges with 4 haywire blasters is 120. 5 trueborn with haywire balsters is 100, and the venom adds another 65.
I think both would be decent options, but I dont think trueborn would nessisarily be completely better or OP. They could have given trueborn haywireblasters and heatlances.
If it was going to be too much, they could have let them take haywire or heatlances as heavy weapons rather than special weapons
Moving the haywire blaster to heavy would work. Trueborn get 2, Warriors get 1 per full 10. Scourge are unchanged.
Of course, if you could go haywire and blaster for warriors, that's making warriors actually useful, and we can't have that.
Moving the haywire blaster to heavy would work. Trueborn get 2, Warriors get 1 per full 10. Scourge are unchanged.
Of course, if you could go haywire and blaster for warriors, that's making warriors actually useful, and we can't have that.
-Matt
Whats worse it would give troops choices variety. Doubly bad
scottmmmm wrote: Am I right in understanding that the Talos can only change one of the CCWs into the weapon upgrade options? It certainly seems to read that way
The only reason I ask is that the picture in the book shows one with two of the upgrades...
What are people's thoughts on the best loadout for one?
No you can replace both - wouldn't recommend it though.
It depends on what you want to do, the Scouting Formation one could use five TL Haywire Blasters effectively, but for units of three or less, probably keep them bare minimum
scottmmmm wrote: Am I right in understanding that the Talos can only change one of the CCWs into the weapon upgrade options? It certainly seems to read that way
The only reason I ask is that the picture in the book shows one with two of the upgrades...
What are people's thoughts on the best loadout for one?
No you can replace both - wouldn't recommend it though.
It depends on what you want to do, the Scouting Formation one could use five TL Haywire Blasters effectively, but for units of three or less, probably keep them bare minimum
Are you sure? It reads "the talos can replace one of its close combat weapons with one of the following"
The stinger pod looks quite good vs horde armies such as Orks or Nids
Pretty sure - I think there is something similar in the Tyranid Codex in regards to changing Scything Talons to TL Devourers, but I can't confirm that.
Not sure how I feel about Stinger Pods, Assault 2 is great, but it's a small blast so you won't get a lot of models - and you give up 12 TL Poison shots, at a further range so can do more damage on the first turn.
Do not worry about Tyranids hordes, unless they go FMC heavy, I've played my Nids against DE enough to know Nids have a incredibly tough match-up and the only way they really have a chance against DE is to exploit the lack of good AA that DE have access to
Eldar
Autarch
Maybe Wraithguard w/ D- Scythes
Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent
Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent
Crimson Hunter
5 Razor Wings kitted at 150 , is 750, Archon's another 95, + 110 for each of the Warrior Squads. It'd definitely be less than 1850 or at least you could easily do 1850 with that army.
I kind of wonder how a mass terrify army would work.
Specifically with the Hemlock Fighter because it automatically gets Terrify, not sure if it get's Psychic Shriek.
Anyway with Armour of Misery you could deep strike then bring on a Hemlock Fighter and Terrify something at -3 LD or use it with Coven Formation and -2 LD.
Coven and a mass Psychic Shriek / Terrify Army seems interesting.
I kind of wonder how a mass terrify army would work.
Specifically with the Hemlock Fighter because it automatically gets Terrify, not sure if it get's Psychic Shriek.
Anyway with Armour of Misery you could deep strike then bring on a Hemlock Fighter and Terrify something at -3 LD or use it with Coven Formation and -2 LD.
Coven and a mass Psychic Shriek / Terrify Army seems interesting.
Or all 3. Coven Formation with Hemlock and Terrify for Ld-4.
Really though, I think it's sub-par. A cheap coven formation is around 300 points, another 115 or so for the archon with armor of misery, and then the hemlock for 185. 500 points in LD shenanigans, is great and all until you run into a mech'ed up or fearless army. Or you could just take 7 venoms for about the same cost, and just dump 84 poison shots into the target instead of hoping on the failed Ld test.
Hollismason wrote: I could see a mixed Coven and Iyanden army with Spirit Seer's being effective. You've got Psychic Shriek plus Terrify. That'd be interesting.
Does the Hemlock get Psychic Shriek? I never can keep that straight.
You want to spend 185 points for a level 1, when you could spend 70 points on a level 2? Or 100 points on a level 3?
I'll stick with the spirit seer if I want Shriek, and hope for terrify (or invisibility).
I'm unsure of something with coven though can it be taken as just an ally? Like would it use the ally detachment rules?
Page 48 of the Haemonculi Coven
If you use one of these formations or the Covenite Coterie Detachment, then the following special rules apply.
Covenite Coterie Detachment
2 HQ + 6 optional HQ, 2 elites +6 optional elites and 4 optional heavy support.
Or Take one of 7 Formations
Haemonculus + 2 Grotesques
OR
Haemonculus + Cronos + 2x Wracks
OR
2x Wracks in 2 venoms
OR
5 Talos
OR
Talos + Cronos + Haemonculus
OR
Haemonculus + 3 Wracks + 3 Raiders
OR
Take All 6 of the formations and get some more special rules.
If you aren't using these above, then you don't get the Covens power from pain special table, the warlord traits, or the Diabolical Playthings. In short, you're back to the basic DE codex.
Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.
mercury14 wrote: Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.
What is your list looking like? What units are doing good and what would you change?
mercury14 wrote:
Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.
I have not taken it to a tournament yet nor seen statistics from a major tournament since the release, but my Dark Eldar seem to be far more potent than they were with the old codex. This is in large part due to night-shields increasing raider and ravager durability drastically. New power from pain is also fairly nifty. It starts to kick in right around the same time that I am launching assaults and general mop-up operations.
Whats better wracks or wyches? I know that wyches tie up things better because of dodge but if the wrack unit is fearless because of coven rules and actually doing damage with 4+ posion attacks I am not sure, what do you guys think?
mercury14 wrote: Is anyone else having a lot of success with the new codex? I just took home first place playing mono-DE in a 14 FLGS tournament yesterday, tabling Blood Angels, Astram, and in the championship match against Imperial Fists w/Knight I had the game in the bag in turn one. I'm now 6W, 0L, 1D with the new codex and in four of those wins I tabled my opponent.
What is your list looking like? What units are doing good and what would you change?
I've been running different lists as I'll be experimenting for quite a while I think. Here's my list I won the tournament with. I don't have my list on me so this is a rehash from memory and not 100% accurate and I think some of the math is off, but you get the gist.
Wyches getting some love eh? That's awesome to see wyches used in a successful army. After getting so much flak and pretty much being panned by 90% of the interwebz I'm happy to see them. I bought everything I'd need to start a wych army for this new codex release cause I wanna try DE, how are you running your wyches, what are your tactics with them?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: Wyches getting some love eh? That's awesome to see wyches used in a successful army. After getting so much flak and pretty much being panned by 90% of the interwebz I'm happy to see them. I bought everything I'd need to start a wych army for this new codex release cause I wanna try DE, how are you running your wyches, what are your tactics with them?
Not sure you can really run a Wych army. It's best to think of it sort of like a Wych detachment. Let me summarize why I think Wyches are substantially buffed. Here's a post I made recently on another corner of the interweb:
1) They get a Raider that jinks on a 3+, meaning they're more likely than ever to reach their destination effectively. And when they get into CC it increases their survivability.
2) They're less likely to have their transport explode, increasing their survivability
3) Power from Pain is much better and gives them FnP, increasing their survivability.
4) Since they're not each buying haywire their cost has been effectively dropped two points. That's a free Wych or Hekatrix upgrade.
5) Turn four they all get furious charge. You may say "Ha! Wyches living till turn four?" But with #1, #2, #3, and #4 increasing their survivability they stay around longer than ever.
I've been running Wyches lately and winning a lot. I run seven or eight in a Raider w/NS, Hydra Gauntlets, and a Hekatrix for the morale point and extra attack. I'll run three units together like this (or maybe two plus a smaller Wych unit w/Hydra in a Venom, and I've not just tarpitted, I've killed some stuff with them. And their range of assaultable targets is fairly large, as they can go after MCs that don't have too many attacks, power armor, termis, etc. And while they can't hurt things like Dreadnoughts, I'm finding that Dreads will not assault them because they know they'll get tied up.
Wyches are vulnerable when they come out of CC of course, and that's why you want to consolidate them into cover. But still, a 5+ cover save plus FnP against small arms really isn't terrible durability, certainly more durability than ever before. Just watch out for flamers but at least you get FnP now against most flamers.
Lastly I'll say that internet people are very poor at calculating wyches' value with combat drugs. 2/3 of the drugs are very good, the Ld one is okay, and the initiative one is bad. So only one bad one. But I guarantee you that when your wyches all get Bloodbride numbers of attacks, hit with the strength of assault marines, or rock a T4 FnP with 4++, you're going to feel real good.
Been running Eldar/DE for a long time, and with the new codex I've noticed it really become a split between the two dexes. Before, depending on the list, I was allying in all DE contributed was baron/Vect, warriors in a venom, and maybe trueborn in a venom. In other words: I allied in a utility/beatstick HQ, the troop tax, and maybe one other good unit in the codex (blasterborn).
Now, the lists I'm building could very easily be E/DE or DE/E. Only reason I run CWE main is for to have two farseers, othrwise both lists could easily be an ally detachment of the other. I find myself agonizing over whether to cut one unit from one codex to grab a unit from the other. When a codex is good enough to give the bulk of the Eldar codex a run for its money, it's a good codex.
There are a few things in the new codex that are just perplexing (are grenades banned in the Dark City?) and worth griping about, but by and large most units in the codex can work pretty well. The list I'm using isn't exactly rocket surgery strategy wise, but it fits my play style well and has been incredibly powerful:
Eldar: 2 x Jetseers- Shard/Stone Anath
2 x DA squads in WS's- SL, holofield
Fire dragons (maybe WS, maybe not)
Warp Spiders
Wraith Knight
DE Allies: Archon/Succubus- Armor of misery, WWP, other (haven't decided who I like better here)
1-2 5 man warrior squads -Venoms x 2 cannons
5 Blasterborn- Venom x 2 cannons
12 Reavers- 4 caltrops
Don't have any DE heavy support, which is the only reason that slot is empty. Since GW apparently learned their lesson from Wraith Lords and let Talos/Chronos squad up I'd very strongly consider a squad of Talos w/Blasters to escort the WK. Either way this template has proven to be pretty strong so far, and more importantly is a blast to play.
Question to Mercury in particular about making Wyches work: I take it they really need a Raider? A Venom squad seems dangerously small, while a maxed-out 15-Wych squad on foot relying on WWP alone is too vulnerable to being shot up before they get stuck in?
SisterSydney wrote: Question to Mercury in particular about making Wyches work: I take it they really need a Raider? A Venom squad seems dangerously small, while a maxed-out 15-Wych squad on foot relying on WWP alone is too vulnerable to being shot up before they get stuck in?
I think they're fine in a Venom as well but it depends on your strategy and what you want to do with them. Five in a Venom with no upgrades or just hydra gauntlets is quite inexpensive, agile, and can lend CC support where it matters or tangle up a shooty unit. I used a 5x Wych Venom in my tournament last weekend and turn two I managed to assault a Thunderfire cannon and shut down down the much-dreaded ignores cover fire for a turn. And while he did rescue them, he had to do it with scouts. The Wyches just regrouped and refused to die, GTG in cover with 5+ FNP. Three of them were alive at the end of the game even
15 in a WWP... I guess you could put a Shadowfield Archon in front of them and dare your opponent to make you roll 1s. You can always LoS S6 onto a wych in cover if need be. It could be a funny unit but I think you'd be better taking 9-10 in a raider.
The main reason you want Wyches in a Raider is because 3+ jink is superb. You're daring your opponent to fire on low-point units that are actually fairly well-defended if you can roll a 3. If they dedicate significant firepower on that unit and it does nothing, well that's a major win for you.
Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.
SisterSydney wrote: Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.
DE assault units are best in small, mobile squads that hit hard. Many Dark Eldar players take a look at Wyches and see a small, mobile squad that doesn't hit hard and endeavor to simply make them cheap units that tarpit certain foes fairly well - but I think that's wrong. With drugs, FnP, cheap hydra gauntlets, about seven in a unit, in a Raider that can be surprisingly hard to take down, they can go get the job done.
SisterSydney wrote: Yeah, I thought of Shadowfield shennanigans protecting a "SuccuBlob" in this fluffy list, plus the "die psykers die" helm, but that seems like a big investment in a single point of failure to make a 15-Bloodbride unit work. And if you lose the character with the WWP, you're walkin'... Seems very brittle.
DE assault units are best in small, mobile squads that hit hard. Many Dark Eldar players take a look at Wyches and see a small, mobile squad that doesn't hit hard and endeavor to simply make them cheap units that tarpit certain foes fairly well - but I think that's wrong. With drugs, FnP, cheap hydra gauntlets, about seven in a unit, in a Raider that can be surprisingly hard to take down, they can go get the job done.
Yeah, I'm thinking of running 8 in a Raider with a Succubus with Archite Glaive and an Autarch with a Firesabre (who really is only there for reserves shenanigans but can hit fairly hard to). I reckon it'll be quite a nasty unit, especially since I can hold it in reserve and have a good chance of being able to bring it on exactly when I want it.
I think wyche cult is more viable than initial thoughts from many people, myself included.
One of the other things worth mentioning is the RSR detachment for wyches is pretty nice, as wyches are troops they gain the cover save from night fighting and turn 1. This gives them an out of combat save for a turn or two which helps their survivability towards getting FnP. Also exploding vehicles which last edition were very painful for units of wyches without a FnP save, are slightly mitigated here as the explosion hit does not have the ignores cover rule, so you can take a cover save when your ride blows up at least.
Animus Vitae is also somewhat useful, the effect is huge when it goes off, but as the weapon is 1 shot only and requires an unsaved wound from its str 4 hit is less than a 50/50 shot of getting it off against most armies.
If you run large beastpacks you can even pull off WWP blobs, by getting the beastpacks in the opponents face turn 1-2 then dsing in the wyche blobs with WWP.
blaktoof wrote: I think wyche cult is more viable than initial thoughts from many people, myself included.
One of the other things worth mentioning is the RSR detachment for wyches is pretty nice, as wyches are troops they gain the cover save from night fighting and turn 1. This gives them an out of combat save for a turn or two which helps their survivability towards getting FnP. Also exploding vehicles which last edition were very painful for units of wyches without a FnP save, are slightly mitigated here as the explosion hit does not have the ignores cover rule, so you can take a cover save when your ride blows up at least.
Animus Vitae is also somewhat useful, the effect is huge when it goes off, but as the weapon is 1 shot only and requires an unsaved wound from its str 4 hit is less than a 50/50 shot of getting it off against most armies.
If you run large beastpacks you can even pull off WWP blobs, by getting the beastpacks in the opponents face turn 1-2 then dsing in the wyche blobs with WWP.
Yes, I think Wyches were initially cast off after losing Haywire Grenades, I personally believe their role changed on the battlefield. Decent in CC and with the Invulnerable save and potentially FnP, make a good tarpit unit
Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.
Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.
RancidHate wrote: Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.
Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.
I'm sorry...
Once you read their profile in the Codex you might discover a "Plasma Grenades" entry in their Wargear list... What are they? Assault Grenades, yes!
RancidHate wrote: Y'know I'm trying to like Wyches but, I can't. I mean they have a 4++ in combat, a 5+FNP (by their usual ETA), decent amount of attacks but, this next flaw is huge (I don't mean the loss of Haywire)... the lack of anyway to get Assault Grenades.
Many gunlines would be in woods, ruins or some other area terrain. Even if they are effective tarpits for Obliterators or certain Terminators, that not reliably going first hamstrings their attack amounts.
I'm sorry...
Good news. Wyches come with assault grenades
Also looks like errata is up. But its not letting me download it.
The link on black library is missing .pdf at the end. Add that in your address bar and it works fine.
But only real fix is allowing succubus to swap ccw OR splinter pistol for glaive. Thus making the new models loadout legal.
A few popular podcasts in their Dark Eldar codex review said that Wyches had no grenades so they're junk. Like three of them did. I have no idea why but it's become like dirty gossip now.
I just finished painting my second razorwing jetfighter and I'm planning on running one with each loadout of missiles. The strength 6 is nice if you need to take some shots at light vehicles or want to double out some pesky T3 units like necron scarabs, but I also get a lot of use out of the fleshbane missiles for firing into clumps of tougher tyranid units, bikers, or even gargantuan creatures. I rarely find the loss of AP5 much of a factor because the opponent will often have some sort of cover save or a better armor save anyway. Quite frankly, if a unit only has a 5+ save then I'm generally not too concerned about how well they'll survive with or without their armor.
mercury14 wrote: A few popular podcasts in their Dark Eldar codex review said that Wyches had no grenades so they're junk. Like three of them did. I have no idea why but it's become like dirty gossip now.
some people have bad verbal reasoning, so when they hear "lost haywire grenades" it becomes "have no grenades"
Honestly though it seems like podcast after podcast has flubbed their review of the Dark Eldar codex just on basic facts and it's not just Wyches. They've all called Beast units horribly nerfed because they can't be abused for a 2++ rerollable with the Baron and Farseer but they don't mention that all beast units are cheaper, better, or both. Forge the Narrative for instance called Khymera "nerfed hard" because they went from a 4++ to a 5++, but failed to mention that they're now T4 and 2 points cheaper. They're like 4-attack S4/T4/beast Wyches. They're now a stupid-good value for just 10 points.
Beastmasters are cheaper. 10 points gets you a better gun than an 8-pt Kabalite, beast move, and cheap access to AP3 in CC. Razorwing flocks are only 10 pts now, a -33 decrease which makes them worthy fillers even with a decrease in their stats. The Fiend is cheaper and now perfectly playable. You can pack in a few fiends and give the pack T5 vs shooting. The whole beast unit in general is just objectively better but it can't be abused with another codex so it's nerfed....Sad reviewing skills.
And Reavers.... The reviewers ranted and moaned about them being nerfed but they're just plain better, especially for -6 points. They'd be better IMO if they only costed -2 points.
Raiders also deserve mass props for their 3+ jink buff now. That's HUUUUGE for an army that depends so heavily on getting units across the map. Absolutely huge. The buff to raiders isn't just a buff to Raiders, it buffs most units in the codex, and reviewers completely missed it, preferring to just look at units in isolation. Weak.
SSSHHHHhhh!
Keep up all the talk about how terrible DE are. I don't want anyone to see me coming.
To me, the codex only missed on 1 point.
Characters not getting skyboard/jetbike options really sucks.
It just feels like the characters don't have much character.
The tactical genius of the Archons is toted all through the fluff; but on the table, they really do nothing. Succubus might be a super-human killing machine in an arena, but that fails on the battlefield. Haemonculus seem the best of the bunch, as they actually have a unique rule.
Would it have been so hard to give the Archon +1/-1 reserves? Give the Succubus Lethal Strike (6's to hit have instant death).
I am thinking of running two units of scourges but I am worried it might be overkill on the haywire, because once the tanks are dead the haywire gets completely useless. Haywire seems like a necessity for taking out land raiders and imperial knights, but in both cases the single unit of scourges will probably not get the job done the turn they deep strike and they may not last long enough for a second round of fire. Against something like serpent spam, the scourges will not kill a serpent and will die to it the next turn. Most vehicles have rear armor of 10, which our jetbikes, talos, even beasts can rip into. Besides landraiders, what vehicle is played often that has rear armor of more than 10? Is one unit of scourges enough? Should a talos take a haywire blaster to soften up vehicles as it moves across the board?
Raiders of Venoms?
I really can not decide which is better. If you are jinking every turn 3hp and a 3+ jink makes the raider seems much better than the venom. I am also thinking of using wyches as troops, which advanced aether sails seems like it would be good with them. This would allow them to boost into enemy lines (hiding a unit of reavers behind them). They don't blow up like they used to and 3hp and 3+ jink makes them actually able to stick around. I plan to have a unit of medusa in a raider because it offers more area to put flamer templates out of giving me better coverage. Just making sure, if a raider jinks the unit inside can still fire normally because they do not have the jink rule, right?
I did my first battle against the new DE dex last night using my eldar army. I must say I really liked what I saw. My opponent was a new player and it was her first real battle that wasn't a practice skirmish against her husband.
Her unit choices seemed solid but her war gear and tactics were a bit... scattered. That's fine though since she's learning and for war gear she was more excited about trying lots of things out as opposed to optimizing her choices. All in all though we had lots of fun and it was a learning experience for both of us.
The star of her army for sure though was her unit of wyches, they not only did the most damage of anything in her force but they also soaked up a stupid amount of fire power. She played them smart, kept them in cover when they weren't assaulting things and I must say I was impressed with their survivability, especially late game.
Her kabalite warriors didn't do very well at all but I feel that was more a result of poor tactics and positioning than any flaw in the kabalites themselves.
All in all I did like what I fought and It was a very fun match.
Heads up this was part of a league were doing that starts at 500 points and goes up by 250 every month.
I wouldn't field a Dark Eldar army with fewer than 3 units of haywire scourges. The anti-tank elsewhere in the codex is very weak, and your poison can't do anything if the enemy infantry are stuck in metal boxes.
I'd also recommend a source of good moderate strength anti-tank firepower for low AV transports. Wave Serpents or a Tau Firebase Cadre would be my pick for this, since our codex simply lacks that kind of firepower.
HawaiiMatt wrote: SSSHHHHhhh!
Keep up all the talk about how terrible DE are. I don't want anyone to see me coming.
To me, the codex only missed on 1 point.
Characters not getting skyboard/jetbike options really sucks.
It just feels like the characters don't have much character.
The tactical genius of the Archons is toted all through the fluff; but on the table, they really do nothing. Succubus might be a super-human killing machine in an arena, but that fails on the battlefield. Haemonculus seem the best of the bunch, as they actually have a unique rule.
Would it have been so hard to give the Archon +1/-1 reserves? Give the Succubus Lethal Strike (6's to hit have instant death).
Agreed, on the Characters getting some fast attack gear. Makes no sense that might Eldar Autarch can hop on a jetbike and slaughter things, but jetbikes are somehow beneath an archon/wych? That was such a no brainer option it's almost inexcusable. This is the only codex I can think of where the HQ slot is the weakest slot in the book.
However there are some other nit picky points as well. Did phantasm grenade launchers really need to be changed? I suppose so because then archons might get dangerously close to providing some utility to the army outside WWP bisch, and we can't be having that.
Vect. The others have been nice, but losing a random helion king/crazy lady talking to herself in a corner/Drug dealer isn't nearly as bad as THE LEADER OF THE FREAKING DARK CITY. For a company as big on fluff and IP as GW is, this just made no sense.
Wyches should be same points as warriors. I won't enter the fray about whether they are the worst unit ever produced by GW and how the world has ended since hay wire got taken from them, but they're slightly overcosted.
Loving the new codex, but there are some really head scratching decisions in here. I actually like that there is a difference between Venoms and Raiders now, and that you probably need a mix of both to avoid Ignores cover completely invalidating your army. It's a great codex, there's just some really irritating simple ideas that never happened.
If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!
If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.
mercury14 wrote: If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!
If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.
You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.
mercury14 wrote: If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!
If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.
You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.
Really the only thing different between Hellions and Beastmasters is Hellions can hammer of wrath at the cost of movement, and cost more. Hellions basically have no real purpose.
Really the only thing different between Hellions and Beastmasters is Hellions can hammer of wrath at the cost of movement, and cost more. Hellions basically have no real purpose.
Hellions can jump over impassable terrain and can DS. They can also be taken in groups of 13+.
mercury14 wrote: If wyches are overcosted it's by maybe 1 ppm. I think they're fine though. 4++ in CC, FnP, objective secured, combat drugs for 10 points? Sounds good to me!
If you want to talk about head-scratching crappy overcosted units, Hellions are right this way. -3 points each but they lost one CC attack because hellglaives no longer count as 2 weapons. They die as easily as kabalites but struggle in cover since it's dangerous to them. Worse still, they share a slot with our wonderful Reavers which pack soooo much more value per point at just a tiny bit more cost.
You must be confusing hellions with packs of beastmasters . 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.
Combo of Beastmasters being exactly the same but cheaper, no grenades (freaking phantasom), and being in fast attack meant Hellions were DOA. Even if hellglaives had been left alone, there's nothing they do I wouldn't just take a reaver to do and have them do better.
I say wyches are overcosted because you need volume to make them work. 2 points lets you grab mandatory upgrades for the vehicles that are vital to making the wyches a threat. It wouldn't be an issue if they weren't troops, but being as they are (and meant to be spammed) I think the price is a tad high. But if they're working for you, great.
@ lambsandlions
I believea medusa can shoot if the transport that is carrying them jinked since the are considered a different unit within the transport (not 100% sure on that but I tried to find flaws in this in the rulebook and it seems to work). What is noteworthy is that if you moved more than 6" then people in the transport can only fire snapshots thus no template weapons.
Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.
Also Hellions can deep strike FWIW.
I think Hellions should be considered more like fast Kabalites (I guess...).
mercury14 wrote: Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.
bikes are relentless thus reavers can assault even when firing salvo, heavy, and rapid fire.
mercury14 wrote: Hellions can shoot a bit better stock than Reavers. The one annoying thing about Reavers is that their guns are rapid-fire so if they shoot they can't assault. Hellions have assault 2 guns.
bikes are relentless thus reavers can assault even when firing salvo, heavy, and rapid fire.
Hellions are just like every other jump infantry now; massively outclassed by the bikes in the same slot that only cost 3 points more.
The problem isn't with hellions, it's with ALL jump infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.
Winner here ^^
il be using that tip for sure as I want to convert some incubi as it is and i've been toying with the idea of a beast pack.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Hellions are just like every other jump infantry now; massively outclassed by the bikes in the same slot that only cost 3 points more.
The problem isn't with hellions, it's with ALL jump infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, Hellion arms on eldar bodies make pretty decent Incubi, especially with fantasy black guard heads.
Then put spare wych arms on to the hellions to make beastmasters.
So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:
120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire
Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.
lambsandlions wrote: So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:
120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire
Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.
lambsandlions wrote: So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:
120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire
Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.
What would be the best combination?
Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.
lambsandlions wrote: So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:
120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire
Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.
What would be the best combination?
Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.
I think when you get to having more than 2 units of scourges you should have 1 unit of heatlance buggers.
2 haywire and 1 heatlance pack. or 3 and 1.
Something that can go for the explode if you need it.
I'd go 4 reavers and 2 scourge.
I really want to like beast packs, but you really have to pick your fights.
I'd throw the heat lances on reavers with caltrops.
Or if you play with a stupid amount of LOS blocking terrain, blasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.
They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.
lambsandlions wrote: So I am building a army list and I can not decide on the configuration of my fast attack. I know I want to fill up all 6 slots and my options are:
120 pts for 10 khymera 2 beastmaster
126 pts for 6 reavers 2 clustercaltrops
120 pts for 5 scourges 4 haywire
Basically each unit cost almost the same points so I can combine them in any way I want. Scourges are important as they are the best way to deal with high AV vehicles, but they die easy so are usually just a one shot deal. Reavers are a fast multi purpose tools who are only good on the charge. Beasts are reliable but only have basic attacks.
What would be the best combination?
Do you want to include all three options? I would probably run 4x scourges, 2x Reavers if not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plenty of all kinds of antitank for pesky knights and meched up lists, plus the catchall Reavers.
I think when you get to having more than 2 units of scourges you should have 1 unit of heatlance buggers.
2 haywire and 1 heatlance pack. or 3 and 1.
Something that can go for the explode if you need it.
Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.
Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.
Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.
Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.
You also hit the rear armor, which is usually AV 10, meaning you are actually looking at averaging 2 pens and a glance, plus a possible extra pen from the 4 reavers.
120 pts is a lot to spend on a unit that will become completely useless once there are no vehicles, or if you go up against many tau lists, or nids, or bike heavy lists.
Seconded. Haywire's nice, but there are only so many vehicle targets to begin with. Mixing in a few heatlance units adds some flexibility and helps with +2 armor, which DE can struggle with.
Also keep in mind Caltrops can do work in a pinch as well. 2 hitting a AV 12 tank will average one pen. Not a huge advocate of heat lances on reavers though, as you'll be jinking most of the time anyway.
You also hit the rear armor, which is usually AV 10, meaning you are actually looking at averaging 2 pens and a glance, plus a possible extra pen from the 4 reavers.
120 pts is a lot to spend on a unit that will become completely useless once there are no vehicles, or if you go up against many tau lists, or nids, or bike heavy lists.
Truth.com about the HoW. Was thinking of Knights specifically there, but I also forgot about them being walkers (so front armor for them). Still, mine have taken out IK's pretty well so far (2 farseers in tow actually make them really good at it). Either way, the points stands: Reavers w/caltrops aren't ideal AT, but they can get the job done in a pinch.
Reavers and scourges are #1/2 in the FA slot for me. Running 3 squads of each isn't a bad way to go at all. The difference between haywire and heat lance is probably going to be minimal, and come down to taste rather than there being a clear winner/loser.
It depends on your meta. I played this last weekend in a local RTT and my first game I paired with drop pod marines with marneus calgar and some assault termies in a crusader.
Game 2 I played minotaurs with Moloc in LR Spartan full of termies plus a LR Achilles both with immunity to lance and melta.
Game 3 I played against an unbound guard list that was 3 baneblade variants. Yup 27 av 14/13/12 hp's.
I was playing my own marines not my DE, last minute change, but it made me realize how boned I would have been even with 2 units of haywire scourge. Every game especially the second and third I would have struggled to open tanks up.
It was a great day btw. My imperial knight stomped marneus games one and my bike CM hammer of wrath gibbed Moloc game 2 a few turns after my thunderfire immobilized his spartan turn 1 after he failed a DT test
I would have been boned with heat lances on my scourge units had I taken my DE, heck even blasters would have sucked.
Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.
SarisKhan wrote: Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.
My concern exactly. As a Nid player, I'd love to go up against haywire spammer. They are great at AT, but useless against monsters. Doesn't seem like a good TAC option. That being said, HL may be the way to go. Honestly these days my lists are all reaver heavy with AT coming from drop dragons.
I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.
With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.
Why not break up the options such as 2x Haywire/2x Heatlance on Scourge units? They both have the same utility(antivehicle), but when you run out of vehicle targets the Lances and one Shardcarbine still give you utility against infantry/MCs.
coblen wrote: I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.
With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.
If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.
DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.
With a 6 FA detachment and scourge being so inexpensive I don't see why taking a pair of haywire units is even a concern.
Seriously? What other armies do you play where every unit is useful against everything?
The biggest weakness in that book is AT. Vehicles and even super heavies are very popular in 7th. It just seems like a no brainer to me to toss in as much haywire as you need to start an alpha strike.
Tyranids are not a problem when your basic pistol can wound their toughest unit easily.
At their worst a haywire scourge unit is still a very mobile unit with a small footprint that can grab objectives where you need them to.
It's like reavers, people keep throwing up stats for how they can wreck a rhino, it's mind boggling to me that you would waste such potential and almost 4 times the points on a rhino. Heck even a chimera, razorB, or devilfish are not worth it IMO. Anything else and your odds go down an insane amount making the trade much riskier in your opponents favor.
I considered taloi with haywire B, trouble is you want them to run every turn, also the fact that each one is the cost of a full scourge haywire team.
I don't mind heat lance scourge but I would definitely run a 2 haywire units to 1 heatlance by default.
Of course your meta makes a difference here. In my meta I either see elite biker or deathstar armies or I see insane amounts of armor saturation.
coblen wrote: I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.
With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.
If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.
DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.
I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.
I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.
On the other hand, Talos and Cronos wreck nids. T7 with 3+ armor and 4+ feel no pain is a problem for nids. AP2 and lethal dose (ichor injectors) is big threat to the big bugs.
Tyranids aren't a bad match up, Tyranids are just a bad match up for the typically DE build.
If you know the bugs are coming, we have all the tools we need.
Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.
They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.
Reavers can rapid fire at 12" and get the same number of shots as hellions, with T4 and a far more formidable charge if they survive.
Also Reavers are eldar jetbikes, so they can move in the assault phase.
Red Corsair wrote: With a 6 FA detachment and scourge being so inexpensive I don't see why taking a pair of haywire units is even a concern.
Seriously? What other armies do you play where every unit is useful against everything?
The biggest weakness in that book is AT. Vehicles and even super heavies are very popular in 7th. It just seems like a no brainer to me to toss in as much haywire as you need to start an alpha strike.
Tyranids are not a problem when your basic pistol can wound their toughest unit easily.
At their worst a haywire scourge unit is still a very mobile unit with a small footprint that can grab objectives where you need them to.
It's like reavers, people keep throwing up stats for how they can wreck a rhino, it's mind boggling to me that you would waste such potential and almost 4 times the points on a rhino. Heck even a chimera, razorB, or devilfish are not worth it IMO. Anything else and your odds go down an insane amount making the trade much riskier in your opponents favor.
I considered taloi with haywire B, trouble is you want them to run every turn, also the fact that each one is the cost of a full scourge haywire team.
I don't mind heat lance scourge but I would definitely run a 2 haywire units to 1 heatlance by default.
Of course your meta makes a difference here. In my meta I either see elite biker or deathstar armies or I see insane amounts of armor saturation.
Lol, no one said anything about wanting a unit that is useful against everything. We're looking at heat lances being useful to some degree every game whereas HWB are great sometimes, useless other times. With reavers being as good as they are, don't you think it bears consideration?
My six slots may go 3x or 4x reavers...and could be razorwings and/or scourges.
coblen wrote: I wouldn't be afraid to run a bunch of haywire even if I was facing tyranids, or chaos daemons. I feel like we have such amazing options for dealing with them already.
With almost everything else in DE feeling like a hard counter to tyranid I feel like wasting points on haywire guns just makes it fair.
If this was 5th edition, I'd agree with you. 7th edition Nid meta has evolved quite a bit.
DE players tend to take less darklight on average now and with Nids running more FMCs than ever and with malanthropes spreading the love, I'd say that gap is not as wide as it once was.
I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.
So I am looking at the new Dark Artisan formation because it has been given a lot of really good reviews. The unit is pretty expensive and usually going to look something like:
The benefits of the unit are +1 ws and I, -1 leadership with 12", fnp 4+ reroll 1, plus the ability to deep strike on your enemy. This is all good but I am not sure if the cronos can pull his weight and how does it compare to just taking 3 talos? The +1 ws is nice but talos are WS 5 so going to hit most things on a 3+ WS6 doesn't help much. I5 is a little better as most things are I4 so you hit first, but a t7 sv3+ fnp model doesn't really care about getting hit in close combat, you will be able to catch falling back units better. The 4+ reroll 1 FNP seems to be where the hotness is at, and it is good don't get me wrong, but it is not that good. 4+ reroll 1 FNP will save a wound about 58% of the time, compared to FNP 5+ which does it 33% of the time. But the talos are so defensive to begin with I am not sure you need the extra FNP. Lets say eldar is our worst match-up. Their wave serpents will do 4 scatter laser and 4 serpent shield shots, against a normal talos unit that will do an average of .65 wounds and against dark artisan that will do .42 wounds. Really not much of a difference. Whats more I want those wave serpents shooting at my talos so they are not shooting at my raiders or smaller units.
3 talos will also dish out a lot more wounds than the dark artisan formation. So is the WWP worth it? This is more up to debate. With the WWP the earliest the Formation will charge is turn 3 but 50% of the time it will be turn 4 or later. That is a long time to wait without 380pts worth of models. 3 talos starting on the board may not get to their first unit until turn 3 or 4 but they can soak up firepower, which is needed if other parts of your army is deep striking. Also 3 talos with haywire blasters is pretty good anti-tank, they will blow up most vehicles while they are moving forward and be able to assault the unit inside.
Maybe I am missing something but I think 3 talos might be better than the dark artisan formation.
Found a use for hellions.
Attach character with web-way for a pin-point deep strike of 40 poison shots at 18".
Survivors then fire again and assault.
If you use a haemonculus for the portal, you're landing with 5+ FNP on top of your 5+ armor. Then, charging turn 3, you've already got furious charge.
They don't survive as good as bikes, but they shoot a hell of a lot better. And you're looking at a good number of S5 attacks on the charge, even better if you get decent drugs.
Reavers can rapid fire at 12" and get the same number of shots as hellions, with T4 and a far more formidable charge if they survive.
Also Reavers are eldar jetbikes, so they can move in the assault phase.
Reavers cap at 12 models, hellions at 20. The only use for hellions is taking advantage of that full sized unit. Web Way in 20 and they will maul a unit (at 18" range), with enough survivors left to fire again and assault.
Reavers are very good, but I can see a use for 3 units of scourge, 2 units of reavers, and a single hellion blob. If you use a coven haemonculus, they land with fearless. If you use a normal one, they gain fearless on turn 4. I'm not saying hellions are great, everyone take them. I'm saying this is the only way I can see to make them passable.
Since the general consensus is that hellions totally suck, it shouldn't be hard to pick them up pretty cheap.
lambsandlions wrote:So I am looking at the new Dark Artisan formation because it has been given a lot of really good reviews. The unit is pretty expensive and usually going to look something like:
WWP is the reason for the season here. DS in a talos and nearly guarantee that it survives to get into assault with some bonuses. Haemi is a IC meaning LOS, so stick him in front and start wound shuffling like a boss. Against any sort of moderately static army you're dropping in a threat that has to be dealt with immediately and is hyper durable, taking pressure off the rest of the list for a turn. Your opponent may not want to shoot at this squad, but you're not giving them a choice really. They either kill it or have 2 MC's moping up a unit + every turn (if you can manage a multi charge). Pure CC potential, a full Talos squad would do better. However, that squad is going to take 3-4 turns to get there, and by that time is probably going to be whittled down considerably.
Alt: look at the 5 man talos formation. Can do roughly the same thing pressure wise, and you are likely to get into CC mostly intact. Costs more, but also going to soak more wounds as well.
HawaiiMatt wrote:
Reavers cap at 12 models, hellions at 20. The only use for hellions is taking advantage of that full sized unit. Web Way in 20 and they will maul a unit (at 18" range), with enough survivors left to fire again and assault.
Reavers are very good, but I can see a use for 3 units of scourge, 2 units of reavers, and a single hellion blob. If you use a coven haemonculus, they land with fearless. If you use a normal one, they gain fearless on turn 4. I'm not saying hellions are great, everyone take them. I'm saying this is the only way I can see to make them passable.
Since the general consensus is that hellions totally suck, it shouldn't be hard to pick them up pretty cheap.
^^ This. If you are going to field hellions, a giant unit of 20 is about the only advantage they have over any other choice. 40 poison shots on an MC isn't terrible, and there's the chance they survive to do something else. Again, no one's saying this makes for a competitive choice (would need play testing). But if Hellions have a competitive usage, this is probably it: Dropping 40 twin linked poison shots into blobs/MC's.
^^ This. If you are going to field hellions, a giant unit of 20 is about the only advantage they have over any other choice. 40 poison shots on an MC isn't terrible, and there's the chance they survive to do something else. Again, no one's saying this makes for a competitive choice (would need play testing). But if Hellions have a competitive usage, this is probably it: Dropping 40 twin linked poison shots into blobs/MC's.
I'm think it's decent. If you ignore them, they'll be charging with 2 S5 (or better) attacks each, after another volley of poison.
If they've got fearless (coven haemonculus) they can tie up several units, hit and run out with the survives, fire and hit again.
If they are firing into the 5+/5+ FnP guys, they aren't shooting the bikes, scourge or your other soft targets.
SarisKhan wrote: Personally I prefer Heat Lances on my Scourges. Haywire Blasters might be better at eliminating Vehicles under some circumstances, but I play against Tyranids, Chaos Daemons and barely-a-Vehicle-there SM armies that they would be nigh useless far too often. Heat Lances can threaten Bikers, Terminators and MCs as well as Vehicles, and I like TAC choices.
My concern exactly. As a Nid player, I'd love to go up against haywire spammer. They are great at AT, but useless against monsters. Doesn't seem like a good TAC option. That being said, HL may be the way to go. Honestly these days my lists are all reaver heavy with AT coming from drop dragons.
On the other hand, haywire blasters are so much more effective than heat lances that they're worth it anyway. The points you save on anti-tank by bringing a mix of haywire blasters (for high AV targets) and allied moderate strength firepower (for low AV) means that you'll be more effective against both types of armies than if you try to make every weapon effective against every target.
Heat lances really are mediocre weapons, and pretending that they have some kind of anti-elite role is naive at best and disingenuous at worst. If you insist on bringing melta, bring fire dragons. You'll want the wave serpents for transport spam, anyway. (Though Tau are another option for that.)
My math be off, but this is what I came up with comparing Heatlances(in melta range) and Haywire Blasters- feel free to correct me.
Heatlance
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Glance/Pen 33/36 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36
Penetrate 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36 10/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36
Penetrate 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36
Sinful Hero wrote: @Dash2021 Are hellions twinlinked now? I thought they were just Assault 2?
you would need an allied farseer for twinlinked
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: My math be off, but this is what I came up with comparing Heatlances(in melta range) and Haywire Blasters- feel free to correct me.
Heatlance
AV 10 11 12 13 14
Glance/Pen 33/36 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36
Penetrate 31/36 26/36 21/36 15/36 10/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36 30/36
Penetrate 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36 6/36
Note that haywire blasters are str4. So they have a slightly higher chance to get a glance against AV10.
Heat lances in melta range are pretty nice. But 9" is pretty short. Haywire blasters have a 24" range.
Haywire blasters are better, but heatlances offer something that can completement the much better haywireblasters. The posibility to explode and the more likely to pen.
Fortifications? Heat lances
AV10 rear armor that you really want to have gone. Heat Lances
Getting damage results. Heat lances
Infantry (2+ saves especilly) heat lances.
Haywire blasters are better when you want reliable anti tank. Particularly against AV12 and higher.
I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?
You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.
EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.
Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
extremefreak17 wrote: I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?
You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.
EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.
I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.
I dont think going pure any weapon with scourges is going to do you any favors unless you face a whole lot of parking lots. I am planning on doing 4 squads of them +2 reavers in my list... probably going to go with 2 haywire per squad and *maybe* 2 blasters... at 24 ill be able to knock a few hullpoints off per squad, at 18 i should pop a transport a turn per squad, plus the blasters can come in handy after the vehicles are down for additional infantry killing. Least thats my theory anyhow
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
HawaiiMatt wrote: A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.
Not really that big a deal. You can take a pair of Lhamaeans for 20 points. The first refuses any challenges and the second keeps the squad at a healthy Ld9 even while the other is avoiding the combat. And even at Ld3, Psychic Scream (or its equivalents) are all pretty pants against Sslyths because they're balanced as AP2 ignore cover weapons. That kind of profile isn't very threatening to a 2 wound model with FNP, even with the additional 6 hits.
Psychic Scream is far scarier to something like a Gargantuan Creature, where you get to simultaneously ignore an absurdly high toughness score and a 2+ armor save.
Lhamaeans aren't characters and can't issue or refuse challenges. Likewise, they don't get a look out. A very small amount of sniper fire will off the Lhamaean and pin the unit.
With a pair of Lhamaea, you've now lost the no-scatter on the deep strike, and are cutting into the firepower.
Depending on how you play psychic shriek, you might be using the closest model for the LD, or using the Majority Ld for resolving the power. RAW, you only use the highest LD for a characteristic test, and PS is not a characteristic test.
I'm not saying they are bad, only that they do have some subtle considerations to worry about.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
If you want to err on the side of caution, that's understandable. Personally, I like the Heat Lances for their greater effectiveness as a weapon, but I think the difference is narrow enough to go either way.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
If you want to err on the side of caution, that's understandable. Personally, I like the Heat Lances for their greater effectiveness as a weapon, but I think the difference is narrow enough to go either way.
I'd say heat lances are more effective than haywire blasters, but we lack any feasible delivery system for them, which basically balances them out, if not slightly leaning in haywires favor.
Sinful Hero wrote:@Dash2021 Are hellions twinlinked now? I thought they were just Assault 2?
Yea, sorry. I've been playing CWE (aka codex re-roll) for so long I just assume a unit that puts out that many shots is going to get a guide from me.
extremefreak17 wrote:
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?
You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.
EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.
As Matt already pointed out, you could make do with either depending on what roll they are filling. Also I think both he and I are mostly playing devils advocate here, trying to find the best way to polish the turd that is hellions. Me, personally, I'm not advocating DS hellion blob as best in slot or even great unit. Simply backing up Matt's assesment that a big blob of Hellions DS'ng, shooting/bullying back field objective campers is probably about the most competitive use they have. Hellions are pretty bad, but they do have HnR which is (IMO) one of the best USRs in the game. Where Sslyth could put out ~ the same shooting and more dmg in HtH, they can be locked down slogging through big/tough units. Hellions get to shoot and charge every single turn, which might actually put their dmg output against tough targets higher than the Sslyth.
Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.
Anyone here run Ravagers with disintegration cannons? A pair of them would be 18, S5, AP2 shots which sounds extremely good to me. And they're 15 points cheaper each than equipped with lances...
mercury14 wrote: Anyone here run Ravagers with disintegration cannons? A pair of them would be 18, S5, AP2 shots which sounds extremely good to me. And they're 15 points cheaper each than equipped with lances...
Yeah, I'm going to get at least one to run with my wyches and hellions.
Mostly so if I ever win a game I can say, "Dude, you just got beat by Wyches, Hellions and a Ravager."
A ravager in cover with a night shield, throwing out 9 S5 AP2 shots isn't bad for the cost. I don't think I'd ever run two, because I need some more serious threats on the table to force you to deal with.
Or to put it the other way, 3 lances are now 15 pts more expensive than they used to be...
Problem is, if you are moving you are snapshooting one of those guns. If you are not moving you are toast. If you jink, again with the snap shooting...
Dash2021 wrote: Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.
That's a nice way of summarizing it. Sslyth and Hellions have about the same firepower, with Sslyths having an advantage in durability and Hellions having an advantage in mobility.
With durability being such a rare commodity in our codex, I think most people will prefer the snakes -- especially since transports let them claim a 3+ cover save without snap firing, while splinter racks give them rerolls to hit.
Yeah, it's super easy to put Hellions into the cover of Raiders and Venoms. So they'll probably end up with a Cover save.
Also, consider that a unit on Turn 2 can actually have Level 4 abilities and they get incredibly nasty.
How?
Kabalite Raiding party, counts 1 turn higher to turn 3 abilities for feel no pain.
Ally with Coven and get the 12" bubble or shoot someone with a ST4 AP2 and get that ability off. (It's actually possible to get them up to turn 5)
Even base though they've got Feel No Pain when they'd land, have 40 poisoned shots, and you should probably not assault them unless you are going to wipe them out because they have Hit and Run. They also get Combat Drugs which 50% of that chart is amazing.
Seriously on Turn 3 , they'll get Furious Charge, if they got +1 ST, they're charging at ST6, if not ST5. If you ally with the Coven, you can actually get them to turn 6 by turn 3 so great now they're Fearless, Furious Charge, and have Rage.
That formation by the way is not actually that expensive when you consider the benefits of what it does and that on turn 1 you can have 4 huge squads of 20 Warriors with a 4+ cover save and Feel No Pain 6+. You have to buy them a transport. There's nothing that says they have to start in it. So you can take huge squads of Kabalite Warriors which can be upgraded to Trueborn.
The biggest problem with the Dark Eldar army is that people are taking it at face value and don't realize that it is in fact a shooty Daemon army w/ most of the army having basically a 5+ invulnerable under most circumstances, because people don't seem to understand that the army fundamentally want's to ignore the first turn so that it can start getting it's benefits.
Dash2021 wrote: Again, not saying I'd ever actually field a hellion squad, but if I was going to this is how I'd do it.
That's a nice way of summarizing it. Sslyth and Hellions have about the same firepower, with Sslyths having an advantage in durability and Hellions having an advantage in mobility.
With durability being such a rare commodity in our codex, I think most people will prefer the snakes -- especially since transports let them claim a 3+ cover save without snap firing, while splinter racks give them rerolls to hit.
Durable? Talos with Ichor Injectors (fleshbane, and instant death on 6), twin-heat lance, Cronos with 4+ FnP bubble, Haemonculus that gives all Talos and Cronos re-rolls of 1 on feel no pain, a webway for pin-point deep strike, and a few rending attacks. 370 points. Try and shoot up T7 3+ armor, 4+ FnP (re-roll 1's), after it's teleported in exactly where it wants to be. If that wasn't enough, the Talos/Cronos get +1 Ws and +1 Init. It's just a totally awesome "Deal with this NOW" unit.
The snakes have been surprisingly squishy to me. Maybe that's because I usually see at least 10 snipers in every game, and that totally gimps a Ld3 unit.
Hollismason wrote: I still can't come up with a good decent lay out for the Kabalite Raiding party.
The raiding party seems pretty point and click to me. 6 x 5 man warriors in venoms w/cannons, 4-7 Incubi w/Archon (agonizer + shadow field), min hellions, 5 scourges w/haywire blasters, 3 medusa in a venom w/cannons, Ravager. Ally in reserve manipulation (autarch would be easiest)
Go for the turn 2 beta strike, deploying hellions, Ravager, and ally units spread out/OOR of opponent. Turn 2 drop everything and neuter.
Here again though, I think it's kind of turd polishing. Is +1 PfP worth having to soak 6-700 points in warriors? Don't get me wrong, 6 venoms and 6 blasters is cool, but you can do that in the regular detachment. The only thing the Raiding party gets is 5+/6+ cover and + 1 PfP. Cover doesn't really factor in, as you are either capable of jinking via your mandatory transport or, preferably, off the table ready to beta strike. So in the end you're shoehorning in at least 2 units you want to leave home (hellions/ravagers), and seriously have to bloat your troops for +1 pfp. If you start upgrading to trueborn you have even fewer points left over for the allies that you're desperately going to need to cover the gaping holes in your army.
In contrast, give up your +1 PfP and you get back the wasted points on hellions/ravager/troops/court (i'd put incubi here too: too expensive for my blood) you don't want and get to allocate those points towards reavers/scourges/Razorwings/Talos/Cronos. The formation just offers to little for such a restrictive composition. Pass.
Ascalam wrote: Or to put it the other way, 3 lances are now 15 pts more expensive than they used to be...
Problem is, if you are moving you are snapshooting one of those guns. If you are not moving you are toast. If you jink, again with the snap shooting...
Ravagers are kind of sucky these days.
Not sure about other people's experiences with Ravagers but when I run them they don't take much fire at all. I rush a large volume of small units and nobody is ever able to not flinch and fire at backfield Ravagers. Even enemy deep strikers typically ignore them. And I keep them behind cover so I don't need to jink with them.
If I'm running higher-cost units such as Grots and have a smaller number of threats on the board I might think twice about taking Ravagers, however they almost always take very little heat and survive for a long time.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
As an enclaves main player, you are horribly underestimating the 9" melta range.
You don't need to land PINPOINT, you need to land GOOD ENOUGH.
Not saying that haywires are useless, the range has its perks (especially with jump movement, as it means you got an on-foot 36" threat range, not HAVING to deepstrike) and as S4AP4 its not outright useless outside of AT value, but the lance deals so much more when it comes to dealing with other nasties like MCs and termies. (and termi MCs like dreadknights and riptides)
Its a matter of choice, do you need that extra anti-tank range to assure its done, or the backup anti-nasty gun?
And I for one love the fact there is no direct right answer here.
It's all about different degrees of competitiveness and the eternal Fluff vs. Power issue. Personally I wouldn't run an army with "rudimentary Troops choices" and some odd-but-optimised unit choices. I try the semi-competitive approach with a TAC army that makes some sense from the fluff standpoint. Like, Archon leader in a Venom, Kabalite Warriors in Raiders, Scourges and Ravagers. See, a nice Kabal force. And then some Fliers for the sake of completeness and some airborne destruction.
Is this army highly competitive? No. Does it make more sense (from the fluff standpoint) than an "army" led by Lhameans/Sslyths with 10 Warriors scattered across two Venoms and consisting mostly of Scourges and Reavers? Yes.
I play nids regularly and I can testify that they are now one of our worst match-ups. they can field several FMC that can start the game next to a malenthrope and jink if needed for a 2++ and any that haven't are equipped with heavy flamers basically making them all mini hell drakes of old. The ability to ignore our vehicles jink with a haywire HF all while toasting the passengers is very frustrating. Basically run your troop transports empty and walk your infantry on later and try to kill any malenthropes early.
On the other hand, Talos and Cronos wreck nids. T7 with 3+ armor and 4+ feel no pain is a problem for nids. AP2 and lethal dose (ichor injectors) is big threat to the big bugs.
Tyranids aren't a bad match up, Tyranids are just a bad match up for the typically DE build.
If you know the bugs are coming, we have all the tools we need.
Actually not really, little bugs to a number on taloi and they out maneuver them as well. Recycled gargoyles especially. I agree old lists need reworking but that is hardly exclusive to tyranid match ups. Drop pod marines etc etc all have the ability to screw over troops as transport passengers. It's why my armies are looking more and more like sideshows filled with Fiends, Sslyth and Grotesques rather then warriors and wyches.
extremefreak17 wrote: I just dont see the greatness of Heat Lances. How are the Scourge getting within 9" anyway? Deep Strike is unreliable with the chance to scatter out of melta range, or onto the target and mishap. If you start them on the board, they will need a few turns to get into melta range, and could easily be shot off by then. I get that S6 AP2 is good against other targets, but at that point, why not just take Blasers for S8 and 18" range?
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?
You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.
EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.
I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.
Anyone determined enough to paint, transport and then deepstrike a massive 20 man hellion unit gets mad credit from me. Just the logistical headache alone makes that unit a none option for me.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
As an enclaves main player, you are horribly underestimating the 9" melta range.
You don't need to land PINPOINT, you need to land GOOD ENOUGH.
Not saying that haywires are useless, the range has its perks (especially with jump movement, as it means you got an on-foot 36" threat range, not HAVING to deepstrike) and as S4AP4 its not outright useless outside of AT value, but the lance deals so much more when it comes to dealing with other nasties like MCs and termies. (and termi MCs like dreadknights and riptides)
Its a matter of choice, do you need that extra anti-tank range to assure its done, or the backup anti-nasty gun?
And I for one love the fact there is no direct right answer here.
The trouble with heatlances though is you pretty much MUST deep strike them. DE need to start cracking armor turn 1, we can't afford to have scourge not come in 33% of the time turn 2, then scatter 67% of the time. Farsight enclaves is a poor comparison IMO, you can take solo suits which are smaller footprint and you are s8, you also get 2 shots per suit and are WAY more durable with a JSJ ability. Your looking at apples to melons there. With tau your not exactly struggling to dump AT shots down field turn 1 also and usually they are icing on the cake OR they have a very specific threat to target like a Knight.
Sadly we need AT specialists to kill rhinos, for that task I'd rather field the haywire blaster. Kill their transport early and keep them corralled. Keep in mind this is my opinion on taking one over another, personally I think you should take at least a 1:1 ratio but I would rather have a 2:1 of haywire:heatlances.
If melta is what your Jonesing for I still say take firedragons. I hated to admit it but CWE really are a tool we can't ignore, a jet farseer, some windriders a firedragon unit and a wraithknight round out any DE list in every damned phase. Firedragons are 110 for 5 but you need a venom, but now when DS'ing you have 12 SC shots at the target you cracked (or something else) and with a 6" disembark PLUS battle focus their melta guns are miles ahead of HL scourge. Oh and they have melta bombs and a 3+ save with ld9.
The trouble with heatlances though is you pretty much MUST deep strike them. DE need to start cracking armor turn 1, we can't afford to have scourge not come in 33% of the time turn 2, then scatter 67% of the time. Farsight enclaves is a poor comparison IMO, you can take solo suits which are smaller footprint and you are s8, you also get 2 shots per suit and are WAY more durable with a JSJ ability. Your looking at apples to melons there. With tau your not exactly struggling to dump AT shots down field turn 1 also and usually they are icing on the cake OR they have a very specific threat to target like a Knight.
Sadly we need AT specialists to kill rhinos, for that task I'd rather field the haywire blaster. Kill their transport early and keep them corralled. Keep in mind this is my opinion on taking one over another, personally I think you should take at least a 1:1 ratio but I would rather have a 2:1 of haywire:heatlances.
If melta is what your Jonesing for I still say take firedragons. I hated to admit it but CWE really are a tool we can't ignore, a jet farseer, some windriders a firedragon unit and a wraithknight round out any DE list in every damned phase. Firedragons are 110 for 5 but you need a venom, but now when DS'ing you have 12 SC shots at the target you cracked (or something else) and with a 6" disembark PLUS battle focus their melta guns are miles ahead of HL scourge. Oh and they have melta bombs and a 3+ save with ld9.
TL;DR Take firedragons for melta.
Pretty much this.
Heat Lances are not S8 like everyone else's Melta, they are S6. If they scatter outside of 9", they are pretty much useless against most vehicles. They are actually pretty terrible at killing MC's as well. 4 Heatlances only put 1 unsaved wound on a Riptide in the open, and you would need 9 lances to put a single wound on a Wraithknight. It gets even worse if you factor cover. Yes, they can gank Termies, but so can Dissies, Blsters, and Dark Lances, which we have plenty of already in our army.
Hollismason wrote: I think the biggest thing to take away from Eldar should be the great CCHQs they have.
Mainly because they're all pretty boss.
You've got
Autarch w/ Jetbike w/ lance, meltagun thingie, and he has a shield , plus benefits from hit and run if he's with a unit of Reavers
You've got Baharoth who's crazy good with Hellions when you think about it.
You've got Karandos who's just awesome, he gives stealth, infiltrate, etc..
You've got Fuegan who's great as well.
Like all of the Phoenix Lords for Eldar are super great for Dark Eldar as several of them make up for whatever lack the unit their in doesn't have.
Asurmen + 9 Wyches might be something. He can tank shooting and overwatch with T4, 2+, 4++, EW. Also has AP 2 and is an absolute boss in chalenges.
Pheonix Lords could be fun beat sticks, but utility HQ's reign supreme. Farseer is never a bad option, and the Autarch has a lot of strong synergy with the types of lists that DE want to run. Autarch gives you a nice beat stick if you want as well, so that's a two-fer.
PL's for funzies list will be a blast, but leave em at home in a tournament.
Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.
Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.
That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.
Red Corsair wrote: Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.
Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.
That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.
Red Corsair wrote: Solo psychers are very underwhelming IMHO. They will have hit or miss impact while a phoenix lord will add an anchor to an important flank the whole game. Though I will admit I haven't used Eldrad in a hot minute.
Gotta give my vote to barahoth since he gives hit and run to fiends or grots.
That said I would never waste him in hellions since they already have the ability and because it's like putting caviar on a pop tart.
I don't think Hellions are bad, I think that the faq they're 13 points which I feel is cheap can be taken in a squad of 20 and get multiple special abilities edges them to being decent.
HOWEVER
Reavers are so much better in like almost every aspect it's hard to say take Helions over Reavers. However Helions have some amazing just amazing models so there's that, and as I said it's pretty easy to keep them in cover, also by the 2nd or 3 turn if you are manipulating the turns or coming in on Turn 2, the squads got Fearless, Furious Charge, and Feel No Pain.
That's boss for 13 points a model, plus probably the best special ability in the game almost Hit and Run which confers to characters that join.
Autarch on a bike could join them etc..
Plus the big thing of having a huge squad size of 20, that's 40 Poison Shots coming at you. Plus they get hit and run. Charging in with ST5 on later turns. Possibly ST6. That's pretty boss.
So far I have had great success mixing Dark Eldar detachments with the new Coven detachment. I think they mesh well and really add alot to each other. Units of taloi are amazing and the archons load out is awesome... agonizer, soultrap, haywires, shadowfield... this is cheap and send him up against the nastiest unit with a 3+ save and challenge! lol.
The only problem that I see with the 20 man Blob of Hellions is that really there's no way to put any special character in with them unless you went with maybe a Autarch from Eldar.
That's about it. It also has like no other role on the field , it's just anti-infantry, where as a 12 man Reaver bike squad can be anti infantry and anti tank but it's going to have fewer bodies, but it's damage out put is insane.
The models though are pretty boss and they are not actually Terribad. I could see it's use in a Deep Strike force with Grotesquire etc..
Hollismason wrote: The only problem that I see with the 20 man Blob of Hellions is that really there's no way to put any special character in with them unless you went with maybe a Autarch from Eldar.
That's about it. It also has like no other role on the field , it's just anti-infantry, where as a 12 man Reaver bike squad can be anti infantry and anti tank but it's going to have fewer bodies, but it's damage out put is insane.
The models though are pretty boss and they are not actually Terribad. I could see it's use in a Deep Strike force with Grotesquire etc..
40 S5 attacks (possibly S6), does give a little anti-tank.
The S5 attacks might actually be better than the S6 rending hammer of wraith. Since HoW says it hits the vehicle facing touched, the hellions can get to that rear armor.
Sinful Hero wrote: Well, as far as Blasters/Heatlances within 9" Blasters become far outshined. Heatlances can't roll below Str 8, and are AP1(if I remember right). In the 10-18" band Blasters may be superior, but they are also more expensive for a more generalist weapon. Of course, Blasters can take on MCs as well better than Heatlances can at any range.
Forgot about the cost difference. I still dont see how the unit reliably makes it into 9" range though.
I think you overestimate the unreliability of Deep Strike, but there might just be a gulf between our personal experiences with the mechanic.
I admit it is hard to be objective when trying to make a point about scatter as there are unlimited possibilities, but i'l try anyway.
You have only a 33% chance of landing a "hit" on the DS, and if you do scatter, your average distance will be 7". For something with a 9" effective range, a 66% chance to scatter ~7" is pretty terrible if you ask me. It complicates thinks further when you consider intial placement. Do you place them right at 9" and pray for a hit or a low-average scatter towards your target? Or do you place them closer and hope we dont mishap into the target, but open up some room for scattering off. Terrain can be easily abused by an opponent as well when he know your reach is only 9". DT tests are not something you want to take on a 4+ model. Even on an open board with no terrain, and with perfect scatter, you can easily get bubble wraped out. Most of these problems are solved by the 24" range on a Haywire Blaster.
Remember, they are not Drop Pods Marines. They dont get auto correct and cant move 6" after landing.
You are thinking in 1 Dimension. The scatter occurs in 2 Dimensions.
So you land, 66% chance to scatter. but then only a small chance you will be scattering directly towards your target or directly away from your target. Moving 8" sideways and you are still in 9" from target but perhaps not in the correct firing arch(which you dont care about much with lance melta)
As for the Hellion blob + WWP Haemy, we are looking at 365 points and a FA slot. Would a Sslyth Court not be better?
You could take 9 Sslyth + Raider w/Splinter Racks & Nightshields + WWP Archon for 415 points and no slot. 27 Twinlinked Posion shots is almoist as good as 40. You get 1 less wound, but they are T5 and still have FNP. Each gets 5 S5 attacks on the charge as well. Worth an extra 50 points if you ask me. If you wanted to go cheap you could even trade the Archon for a Lhamean. Forces you to gamble a bit on your Deepstrike, but is also 85 points cheaper. I like the Archon because he can be given upgrades to flavor.
EDIT: Depending on how your group reads the rule for the Court, you might not be able to save the 85 points if you are forced to take the Archon anyway. Still, 415 points for that unit is far better than 365 for the Hellions.
I wish Sslyth had power from pain. Sslyth blob is looking good, but keep in mind that the hellions get drugs, hit and run, furious charge, fearless, fleet, and are jump infantry.
If I wanted a unit to land and take a beating, Sslyth is a great choice. If I wanted a unit to land, and tie up a few enemy units, I'd take hellions. Hellions having more speed can grab multiple enemies a lot easier than Sslyth will be able to.
They are doing different things (though both dish out a lot of poison hits).
I think it's more fair to compare Sslyth to Dark Artisan formation, both WWP into the backfield and provide a big close combat threat, both are slow on the ground, and both are really tough to kill.
A slight concern is the Sslyth leadership of 3. It's begging for a psychic scream, and you better take that IC in the unit, you'll need his leadership.
So just a thought. If you are really thinking of taking hellions for pure dakka power. What about scourges with no special weapons. 10 is 160 points and puts out 30 splinter shots. They have no leadership problems, they have ghostplate, they have mobility. No expensive HQ nessisary.
Heatlance(Melta Range)
AV......................10......11......12.......13.......14
Glance/Pen.....33/36.31/36.26/36.26/36.26/36
Penetrate........31/36.26/36.21/36.21/36.21/36
Heatlance(Outside Melta Range)
Glance/Pen.....18/36.12/36..6/36..6/36..6/36
Penetrate.........12/36..6/36..0/36..0/36..0/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen.....30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36
Penetrate..........6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36
Blaster
Glance/Pen....30/36.24/36.18/36.18/36.18/36
Penetrate.......24/36.18/36.12/36.12/36.12/36
Actually added the lance rule to these, and made it a bit more legible. Can also convert to % if that's easier to read.
Scourges with just shard carbines are very good anti MC and anti infantry for the cost.
The only issue is that you can get massed splinter shots elsewhere and there aren't too many places we can get a large amount of special and or heavy weapons in a small unit.
Regarding hellions, I don't think its even necessary to put an expensive HQ with them. They have a 12" move and the splinter pods have an 18" range. You should be able to shoot something turn 1 or 2. They already have deepstrike so if you want to deepstrike them you can without an HQ that has WWP. Of course you have to scatter now, but against certain armies on certain tables there is lots of space already... Hellions have decent anti infantry shooting, and can get up to str 5 on the charge with FC from PfP so they can threaten light armor and infantry fairly well. The problem is they are pretty fragile, and what they bring we can get a lot of other places.
Some people seem to forget that the Heat Lances have both Melta and Lance USRs. They might glance AV 14 at full range because it still counts as AV 12, so whilst they're considerably hindered they are not completely useless either.
Another strong point is AP 1. When those pens start coming the number of results might severely impair a Vehicle even when it is not outright destroyed, something that the "Gotta Glance 'em All" Haywire Blasters are all but incapable of.
Speaking of Hellions they are not necessarily terrible, it's just that there are other units that can do their job much better. Reavers and Scourges rock.
I think every unit can be good, but it depends on how you play them. If you have a strategy in mind, then you can make most of the units work .
Of course it goes without saying, it will be difficult and requires some skill to play the other units, but each unit has a purpose that is can execute
Sinful Hero wrote: Heatlance(Melta Range)
AV......................10......11......12.......13.......14
Glance/Pen.....33/36.31/36.26/36.26/36.26/36
Penetrate........31/36.26/36.21/36.21/36.21/36
Heatlance(Outside Melta Range)
Glance/Pen.....18/36.12/36..6/36..6/36..6/36
Penetrate.........12/36..6/36..0/36..0/36..0/36
Haywire blaster
Glance/Pen.....30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36.30/36
Penetrate..........6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36...6/36
Blaster
Glance/Pen....30/36.24/36.18/36.18/36.18/36
Penetrate.......24/36.18/36.12/36.12/36.12/36
Actually added the lance rule to these, and made it a bit more legible. Can also convert to % if that's easier to read.
again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.
Exergy wrote: again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.
Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.
Exergy wrote: again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.
Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.
Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.
Exergy wrote: again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.
Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.
Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.
I'm confused. Explain how Haywire Blasters deal two hullpoints?
And here's the hullpoints a unit of five(4 of each weapon) will deal on average.
AV...............10......11.......12......13......14
Haywire Blaster Glances......2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49
Pens...........0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48
Blaster Glances......2.49...1.98...1.50...1.50...1.50
Pens...........1.98...1.50...0.99...0.99...0.99
Heatlance(Inside Melta)
Glances......2.73...2.58...2.16...2.16...2.16
Pens...........2.58...2.16...1.74...1.74...1.74
Heatlances(Outside Melta)
Glances......1.50...0.99...0.48...0.48...0.48
Pens...........0.99...0.48...0.00...0.00...0.00
Exergy wrote: again remember that Haywire blasters are str4. So there is a 1/6 chance that they will glance AV10. They can potentially get 2 glances, if they hit, roll a 6 to glance, and then roll a 2-5 for the haywire rule.
Haywire weapons roll on the Haywire table instead of rolling for normal armour penetration.
Well, if they don't it only goes up to 31/36. So not really that big of a deal. There's a 5/36 chance to deal two hullpoints. Penetrate is unchanged.
I'm confused. Explain how Haywire Blasters deal two hullpoints?
If they roll for Haywire AND the Str 4 armor pen, they have a slight chance to glance on the Str 4 against AV 10.
Sinful Hero wrote: If they roll for Haywire AND the Str 4 armor pen, they have a slight chance to glance on the Str 4 against AV 10.
pg 165, BRB: Haywire Rule:
'When a weapon with this special rule hits a vehicle, roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling for armour penetration normally:
1 - No result
2-5 Glancing Hit
6 Penetrating Hit'
So for any Haywire Weapon you roll on the above table instead of rolling for armour pen, not in addition.
Also I had a closer look at the table you originally posted, to glance with a Haywire Blaster, you need a 2,3,4 or 5. The chance to cause a glance with a successful hit is 24/36, or 4/6, with a 1/6 to fail and 1/6 to cause a penetrating hit.
Not trying to say other weapons on Scourges are better, just pointing out Haywire Blasters aren't as good as your data shows them to be.
Read the haywire rules, they quite clearly say ".....roll a D6 to determine the effect rather than rolling for armour penetration normally...."
Colored the important bit in red.
EDIT: ninjaed
In any case, none have doubts that haywire beats heat lance when it comes to your everyday armored target.
Its when dealing with superheavies that the heat lance shines, as them extra hull points form "expload" results REALLY matter, the 3.333 HP damage dealt with 4 haywires is just not enough. you need them explode results.
And, still counting the fact it actually puts pain on elite style units, rather then only on armored units. you want something to hurt them oblits, termies and dreadknights, and the heat lance delivers a decent score at doing that.
I vote heat lances, because while they are not quite as amazing against tanks-they cover more angles.
A penetrate still causes a hullpoint though, and my table has it listed as a Glance/Pen(so both). I just listed penetrates as seperate by themselves to illustrate where Blasters and Heatlances shine- additional damage over hullpoint stripping. Just Stunning a vehicle for a turn can be all you need to win a game.
Sinful Hero wrote: A penetrate still causes a hullpoint though, and my table has it listed as a Glance/Pen(so both). I just listed penetrates as seperate by themselves to illustrate where Blasters and Heatlances shine- additional damage over hullpoint stripping. Just Stunning a vehicle for a turn can be all you need to win a game.
I don't think the heat vs haywire will ever be resolved.
A single stun and win the game.
Having 2 scourge survive the return fire and fire again can win the game.
With heat, you're more likely to kill, and to die. With haywire, you can park 15" further away than the scourge with heat, making the chance at a 2nd volley that much higher.
Both are good.
I think the only thing you can say about scourge is that universally, blasters and lances are bad, splinter cannons wound be better serves on venoms. Heat/Haywire are both solid.
I'll post the averages of 2xHeat and Haywire, 2xHaywire and Blaster, and 2xBlaster and Heat in a couple hours if anyone's interested and no one beats me to it.
Got in a game with the Hellion Blob.
Autarch on jetbike leading the blob (with attached haemonculus for deep strike and +1 pain), landed in concert with the Dark Artisan formation (also deep struck).
It let me pour out a ton of fire, and be fairly safe in cover with a 4+ feel no pain.
Opponent tried to charge to thin me out, but the combination of over-watch and striking first at WS5 (drugs), let me absorb is throw-away charge without a loss.
On my turn 3, the hellions and artisans hit 4 units, tying up a huge swath of the opponents force.
Bottom of 3, I hit and ran out, only to pepper the survivors with more poison and hit and run back in for the kills.
Alone, hellions are a turn.
With an Autarch, they are a polished turd.
With a Cronos nearby, they become good. Not great, but Good.
I think a lot of the DE list is hard to theory hammer, because of how the units interact together.
How do you appraise the combat value of a unit with so many outside and random buffs?
If I didn't have Uriel bubbling "fear" and +1 pain in a 12" range from the safety of his stolen eldar wave serpent, the value of the wyches, reavers and hellions would have been far less.
DE just isn't a codex you can evaluate in a vacuum.
I do think that both Heat Lances and Haywire Blasters are good. Different for sure and considerably at that, but they are both good. My personal preference is Heat Lances, but that is affected by my meta.
HawaiiMatt wrote: DE just isn't a codex you can evaluate in a vacuum.
Alone, hellions are a turn. With an Autarch, they are a polished turd. With a Cronos nearby, they become good. Not great, but Good. I think a lot of the DE list is hard to theory hammer, because of how the units interact together. How do you appraise the combat value of a unit with so many outside and random buffs?
If I didn't have Uriel bubbling "fear" and +1 pain in a 12" range from the safety of his stolen eldar wave serpent, the value of the wyches, reavers and hellions would have been far less.
DE just isn't a codex you can evaluate in a vacuum.
But when you consider the cost of this combination, it remains a turd no matter what.
20 Hellions--260 points Haemonculus with WWP, Pump--115 Autarch with Shard, Jetbike--125 Nearby Chronos--100
600 points minimum for 40 splinter shots, which ends up being about 13 wounds on just about any non-vehicle target. Add in the minimal shooting from the other units.
Compare this to 10 Scourges, which can fire 30 Splinter shots for an average of 10 wounds. Oh, and they only cost 160 points. Yes, the are less durable, but it isn't like the Hellions are the paragon of survivability, particularly for their cost.
While I appreciate trying to make bad units work, sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. Hellions don't provide anything that other units in the dex can't do better. At best, they are a generalist in a specialist army. Furthermore, I don't think that deathstar is the way to go with DE. MSU is, and has always been, their strength.
Alone, hellions are a turn.
With an Autarch, they are a polished turd.
With a Cronos nearby, they become good. Not great, but Good.
I think a lot of the DE list is hard to theory hammer, because of how the units interact together.
How do you appraise the combat value of a unit with so many outside and random buffs?
If I didn't have Uriel bubbling "fear" and +1 pain in a 12" range from the safety of his stolen eldar wave serpent, the value of the wyches, reavers and hellions would have been far less.
DE just isn't a codex you can evaluate in a vacuum.
But when you consider the cost of this combination, it remains a turd no matter what.
20 Hellions--260 points
Haemonculus with WWP, Pump--115
Autarch with Shard, Jetbike--125
Nearby Chronos--100
600 points minimum for 40 splinter shots, which ends up being about 13 wounds on just about any non-vehicle target. Add in the minimal shooting from the other units.
Compare this to 10 Scourges, which can fire 30 Splinter shots for an average of 10 wounds. Oh, and they only cost 160 points. Yes, the are less durable, but it isn't like the Hellions are the paragon of survivability, particularly for their cost.
While I appreciate trying to make bad units work, sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. Hellions don't provide anything that other units in the dex can't do better. At best, they are a generalist in a specialist army. Furthermore, I don't think that deathstar is the way to go with DE. MSU is, and has always been, their strength.
Lol, for 600 points you could have the 5 Talos formation, which fire 30 TL Splinter shots. And are more durable. Way more durable.
The hellions can DS on their own, and still fire 40 splinter shots on their own.
Why are the Haemy, Autarch or Cronos even there? what do they ADD to the unit?
Anyways, back to scourges and their weapon choice.
I can't help but feeling that as haywire blasters are not getting enough hull points to kill a simple rhino on their own, you might as well got for the heat lance path and take advantage of the superior stopping power.
Anyways, back to scourges and their weapon choice.
I can't help but feeling that as haywire blasters are not getting enough hull points to kill a simple rhino on their own, you might as well got for the heat lance path and take advantage of the superior stopping power.
There is no "on their own". It's simply not helpful to discuss units in isolation like this. The army is perfectly capable of putting damage on a rhino before or after the scourges shoot.
Furthermore, I don't think that deathstar is the way to go with DE. MSU is, and has always been, their strength.
You can do both, as Deathstars are usually supported by MSU. Grotesques make for a very resilient deathstar base, and infiltrating them next to your opponent forces them to deal with the threat. All the heavy weapons that would normally be pointed towards your paper planes are forced into the Grotesques for 2 turns, while you do what you do with the rest. T5 FnP in cover is a hard unit to move, and even suffering casualties is just going to make it more likely for them to RAAAAAAMMMMPPAAAAAAGEEEEE! when they get to their target. Mostly though, the unit is relatively inexpensive (as Deathstars go) and takes a lot of pressure off the rest of your army.
Anywho, deathstars are definitely doable and possibly even competitive in the DE book. MSU will continue to be good, but there are some legit deathstars in the mix to.
@BoomWolf- Firstly, if you're using your scourges to take out rhinos you've either killed everything else (and made your points back) or your doing it wrong. The biggest advantage of haywire is that 5/6 times it hits it strips a hulpoint (before saves obviously) regardless of AV. Haywire is to glance out high AV targets that would otherwise eat a ton of your AT. Opening a rhino isn't something you need to dedicate a slot to, killing IK's/LR/WS is.
The hellion blob isn't about shooting, it's about the combat. It hits almost as hard as reavers, and it takes a charge way better than reavers.
It's stupidly faster than the Talos formation, and it's likely to land on turn 2 exactly where you want it to land.
It outshoots the BS3 talos.
If you want monstrous and hard to kill, take Dark Artisan(s).
5 talos that get a free 6" move vs 2 Talos, 2 Cronos, and 2 Haemonculus which can land exactly where you want them. (keep in mind, these guys get +1 WS +1 Init).
Hellions kill things that would bog down the Talos/Cronos.
You can do both, as Deathstars are usually supported by MSU. Grotesques make for a very resilient deathstar base, and infiltrating them next to your opponent forces them to deal with the threat. All the heavy weapons that would normally be pointed towards your paper planes are forced into the Grotesques for 2 turns, while you do what you do with the rest. T5 FnP in cover is a hard unit to move, and even suffering casualties is just going to make it more likely for them to RAAAAAAMMMMPPAAAAAAGEEEEE! when they get to their target. Mostly though, the unit is relatively inexpensive (as Deathstars go) and takes a lot of pressure off the rest of your army.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that the unit doesn't do anything extremely well except to survive. While 10 Grotesques is only 350 points, a delivery system via a Webway Portal is necessary. So is some way to make them Fearless. Finally, reserve manipulation is essential, as one cannot drop 500+ points into a unit that may not arrive until turn four (and then assault at turn five at the earliest).
Anywho, deathstars are definitely doable and possibly even competitive in the DE book. MSU will continue to be good, but there are some legit deathstars in the mix to.
Definitely doable. I'm just not sure about competitive. Grotesques are the main candidate, and they are essentially useless in an Imperial Knight world. What else would you consider trying to make into a deatstar?
While I agree with everything you said, there's just one thing and that's "DE shouldn't try to Deathstar" when we had one of the most dominant death stars of 6th in our last dex
So many way, basically thinking I'm going to run 5-6 obsec Venoms, 1 squad of Scourges for nuking some real heavy AT, and just 4-5 squads of 9 Reavers, maybe supported by a bomber for some crowd control. Seems like a good way to clear out blobs and armour saves, the 2 things splinter weaponry doesn't do all that well against, not sure how relevant the Ap2 is gonna be with all those Reavers and being that taking implosion missiles is the only real reason to take a bomber, I might just do a jet instead. Any thoughts.
You can do both, as Deathstars are usually supported by MSU. Grotesques make for a very resilient deathstar base, and infiltrating them next to your opponent forces them to deal with the threat. All the heavy weapons that would normally be pointed towards your paper planes are forced into the Grotesques for 2 turns, while you do what you do with the rest. T5 FnP in cover is a hard unit to move, and even suffering casualties is just going to make it more likely for them to RAAAAAAMMMMPPAAAAAAGEEEEE! when they get to their target. Mostly though, the unit is relatively inexpensive (as Deathstars go) and takes a lot of pressure off the rest of your army.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that the unit doesn't do anything extremely well except to survive. While 10 Grotesques is only 350 points, a delivery system via a Webway Portal is necessary. So is some way to make them Fearless. Finally, reserve manipulation is essential, as one cannot drop 500+ points into a unit that may not arrive until turn four (and then assault at turn five at the earliest).
Anywho, deathstars are definitely doable and possibly even competitive in the DE book. MSU will continue to be good, but there are some legit deathstars in the mix to.
Definitely doable. I'm just not sure about competitive. Grotesques are the main candidate, and they are essentially useless in an Imperial Knight world. What else would you consider trying to make into a deatstar?
Wasn't talking about DS'ng them, was talking about actually infiltrating. I completely agree, that many points in a unit needs to start earning its keep immediately. Ally in Karandras or Iliac for the infiltrate. Iliac is cheaper and has shrouded, but he's Iliac so... Karandras gives you stealth, move through cover, 2+ armor, Str 8 AP2 at initiative and EW to tank Strength 10 shots with. He's super expensive and a legit beat stick himself, so no need to go all out with the grot squad. Take them from the grotesquerie formation to get extra bonuses and their own fearless (letting Karandras split off and do his thang). Really spit balling this here, but you get the idea. Could do the same thing w/out Karandras and just pray for the infiltrate WL trait, but I wouldn't.
Personally I'm doing Reaverstar. I run CWE primary, so two farseers in a squad of 12 reavers w/caltrops. Farseers let you tailor your Deathstar to the threat without changing your army list. Only thing the reavers miss out on to the seer council of old is durability, and even then not by a lot. 3+ cover base, Shrouding/invis/Fortune make them far more resilient than they should be. Serpent spam/Tau are the biggest threat, but you can fish for forewarning/fortune here as well as have your farseers out front to tank AP4 and up.
If your running DE primary, just run more reavers with a farseer/autarch. I'd go Autarch and just use the reavers to get him places, when the unit gets shot up just move the autarch to a different reaver unit.
You don't need a webway portal to deliver Grotesques, in fact why bother?
You realize you can take a 65 point Raider, leave it in reserve and with Aerosails get into the opponents deployment zone or really anywhere on the board.
Raiders a assault vehicle with a 36 inch move. Why risk a Deep Strike or waist the points. When you have that much of a move and ignore pretty much everything with that movement.
That's anywhere.
No need to deep strike, they're not going to charge when they arrive anyway.
Sinful Hero wrote: Assume these are four shot at BS4.
AV...............10......11.......12......13......14
4xHaywire Blaster Hullpoints...2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49...2.49
Pens...........0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48...0.48
4xBlaster Hullpoints...2.49...1.98...1.50...1.50...1.50
Pens...........1.98...1.50...0.99...0.99...0.99
4xHeatlance(Inside Melta)
Hullpoints...2.73...2.58...2.16...2.16...2.16
Pens...........2.58...2.16...1.74...1.74...1.74
4xHeatlances(Outside Melta)
Hullpoints...1.50...0.99...0.48...0.48...0.48
Pens...........0.99...0.48...0.00...0.00...0.00
2xHaywire Blaster2xBlaster Hullpoints...2.50...2.25...2.00...2.00...2.00
Pens...........1.25...1.00...0.75...0.75...0.75
2xHaywire Blaster2xHeatlance(Inside Melta)
Hullpoints...2.63...2.54...2.33...2.33...2.33
Pens...........1.54...1.33...0.92...0.92...0.92
2xHaywire Blaster2xHeatlance(Outside Melta)
Hullpoints...2.04...1.75...1.50...1.50...1.50
Pens...........0.75...0.50...0.25...0.25...0.25
2xBlaster2xHeatlance(Inside Melta)
Hullpoints...2.63...2.29...1.83...1.83...1.83
Pens...........2.29...1.83...1.50...1.50...1.50
2xBlaster2xHeatlance(Outside Melta)
Hullpoints...2.00...1.50...1.00...1.00...1.00
Pens...........1.50...1.00...0.50...0.50...0.50
Note these are just averages. It may not represent the game board, but it does compare the weapon loadouts to each other, and their strengths and weaknesses.
Hollismason wrote: You don't need a webway portal to deliver Grotesques, in fact why bother?
You realize you can take a 65 point Raider, leave it in reserve and with Aerosails get into the opponents deployment zone or really anywhere on the board.
Raiders a assault vehicle with a 36 inch move. Why risk a Deep Strike or waist the points. When you have that much of a move and ignore pretty much everything with that movement.
That's anywhere.
No need to deep strike, they're not going to charge when they arrive anyway.
Can be done either way. The WWP makes sense in that you're going to need an IC to babysit them anyway (LD 3). So you can bring 4+IC in a raider for 265 (barebones archon), or 5 + Archon/WWP for 270. The biggest difference is how many grotesques you bring in. If you were wanting more than 4 then the WWP is definitely the route to go as the 2 raiders you would need add up to ~3 more grotesques, and you'd need another IC for the second unit too.
4 Groqs in a raider is perfectly good way to run it if you're just doing one smallish squad. For anymore the WWP is the way to go.
Hollismason wrote: You don't need a webway portal to deliver Grotesques, in fact why bother?
You realize you can take a 65 point Raider, leave it in reserve and with Aerosails get into the opponents deployment zone or really anywhere on the board.
Raiders a assault vehicle with a 36 inch move. Why risk a Deep Strike or waist the points. When you have that much of a move and ignore pretty much everything with that movement.
That's anywhere.
No need to deep strike, they're not going to charge when they arrive anyway.
Can be done either way. The WWP makes sense in that you're going to need an IC to babysit them anyway (LD 3). So you can bring 4+IC in a raider for 265 (barebones archon), or 5 + Archon/WWP for 270. The biggest difference is how many grotesques you bring in. If you were wanting more than 4 then the WWP is definitely the route to go as the 2 raiders you would need add up to ~3 more grotesques, and you'd need another IC for the second unit too.
4 Groqs in a raider is perfectly good way to run it if you're just doing one smallish squad. For anymore the WWP is the way to go.
Why would you need more than 5 at time. Use the Coven formation, they'll be better than normal, plus they'll come in with fear and fearless if you put a Haemy in there or get them near someone that has it.They'll be charging turn 3 regardless. If you go second, which you should if you can , Turn 3 will be your opponents turn and they'll be fearless.Why would you need more than 5?I mean you could do a multi unit charge but then you are not going to get it the first turn that you charge, subsequent turns you would if you have a 10 man squad.
Basically why would you not take formations from the Coven Detachment?
Grotesquire and the Corspethief Claw are meant to be together almost, with the fact you got the Cronos , Talos and the Haemy can have a WWP.
The Haemonoculus or Urien ( I don't know why you would not take him other than he doesn't come with a WWP)
X5 Grotesques w/ Abberation
Raider w/ Nightshields and Aerosails
X4 Grotesques w/ Abberation
Raider w/ Nightshields and Aerosails
Urien ( who can go with a 3 man squad of Incubi)
Total 625
1 Haemy w/ WWP and whatever
Talos
Chronos
350ish
That's all you need, no one can deal with that gak in their face.
Plus, if you deep strike Grotesques, then you lose the major benefit of taking a assault vehicle and getting the 12 inch move.
This is what can happen with Grotesques Deep striking
Deep Strikes Grotesques
Opponent Runs away
or
Opponent shoots them
or
Opponent Shoots them and Runs away.
The Raider gives them mobility and extra protection that first time they come in.
It's also a crazy good formation for Eldar specifically as they have a good amount of weapons that have pinning and they get access to Psychic Shriek and Terrify.
It's stupidly faster than the Talos formation, and it's likely to land on turn 2 exactly where you want it to land.
It outshoots the BS3 talos.
Talos splintercannons are twinlinked, which will outshoot the hellions. Also much better at shooting at FMC.
Except it doesn't. Unit of 5 gets 30 shots, hitting on 4+ with re-roll. 22.5 hits on average.
Unit of 20 hellions gets 40 shots, hitting on 3+, 26.66 hits on average.
If the Talos fire on a FMC, they aren't charging anything, which is kind of a huge waste of points.
Vs flyers, Talos score 9.16 hits, Hellions score 6.66 hits. Or, the other way to look at it, Talos do 1.52 wounds, Hellions do 1.11 wounds to 3+ armor flyers, ie, they both suck at taking on FMC.
I've been kicking around the idea of WWP jet bikes. You can land with blasters/lances within 9" of a prime target, slag it, then use the 2D6" assault move to spread out and pull back.
You get a good round of shooting in before you need to jink, and you're arriving turn 2 with 5+ FnP (if you use haemonculus for delivery).
If you support correctly, on the following turn, you can have the haemonculus join whatever needs the pain.
For eldar troops, I'd run 10 avengers in a raider with night shields. 20 shuriken shots at 18" is a pretty good gun boat. Frees up the avengers wave serps to act as a battle tank.
BoomWolf wrote: You won't get to pull back any relevant distance, as the WWP carrier got no thrust move, and you need to keep coherency.
13 flying bases put down first, with 25mm base last does put the unit back a little bit. I'll have to measure it out, but I think you can pull back effectively a little over ~4 inches.
(13 bases is the 12 reavers, and the autarch/farseer on jetbike, the 25mm would be the WWP carrier).
He's great with Reavers, gives them some extra punch. Plus he comes with Assault Grenades and can be put in any squad and keep up with access to Jump Pack, Jetbike etc..
110 is a buy in for a Autarch w/ Jetbike, Banshee Mask, Laser Lance , and Fusion Gun.
That's pretty good.
Kind of curious why people who take bare bone Archons w/ Webway don't just take a Succubus for 15 points more. Succubus get's access to WWP.
BoomWolf wrote: Whats with this autarch being pushed everywhere?
Just to arrive a bit sooner more reliably you are spending SO many points x_x
Jetbike Autarch is 85 pts. Mandatory Troops choice in the Allied Detachment, let's say 3x unupgraded Windrider Jetbikes, is 51 pts. 136 pts. total. It's also safe to say that the Autarch's Reserve roll manipulation will benefit more than just the unit of Reavers.
For instance, I intend to use 3 Flyers in my primary list. I've been considering replacing the nerfed Ravagers with a Jetbike Autarch and something useful to ensure the Flyers arrive when I want them.
Has anyone thought of using the coven book as the primary CAD, then the DE codex as secondary and bombing your opponent with multiple 20 man units of warriors with attached hammies from the coven CAD? I figure you are getting to put them where you want…they'll start fearless (thanks to the pFp chart the Haemonculus would be using), they would also start with 5+ FNP because he adds to their own PFP chart. 3-4 of these units would be very durable and tough to move. That's a lot of rapid fire poison on the turn you arrive..and it can contain 4 dark light weapons (five if you want to spend the points on a sybarite with blast pistol). Pepper in some other cool stuff and maybe this would be worth trying.
You just got no way to manipulate the Reserve Rolls which kind of sucks. Actually I just purchased some Dark Eldar stuff, few grotesques and some warriors to get started, my friend has some models already, I just like the way the army plays. It's interesting and to me more a tactical army other than point and clikc which is something the Dark Eldar have been before in 3rd.
CaptKaruthors wrote: Has anyone thought of using the coven book as the primary CAD, then the DE codex as secondary and bombing your opponent with multiple 20 man units of warriors with attached hammies from the coven CAD? I figure you are getting to put them where you want…they'll start fearless (thanks to the pFp chart the Haemonculus would be using), they would also start with 5+ FNP because he adds to their own PFP chart. 3-4 of these units would be very durable and tough to move. That's a lot of rapid fire poison on the turn you arrive..and it can contain 4 dark light weapons (five if you want to spend the points on a sybarite with blast pistol). Pepper in some other cool stuff and maybe this would be worth trying.
You mean, add 105 points to the cost of a unit for the webway?
I don't think Warriors bring enough to the table to justify adding 105 points to their unit.
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BoomWolf wrote: Whats with this autarch being pushed everywhere?
Just to arrive a bit sooner more reliably you are spending SO many points x_x
Autarch on a bike is a great purchase for a combat oriented squad of jetbikes.
95 points for 3+/4++, reserve modifications and 5 S6 AP3 attacks on the charge.
Kind of curious why people who take bare bone Archons w/ Webway don't just take a Succubus for 15 points more. Succubus get's access to WWP.
Assuming you are taking both naked, neither of them are very good at doing anything so 15 points is a big deal. Once you start adding equipment and defining the role of your HQ you can start to ague one over another. A common package is Archon + wwp + blaster which is a shooting specialist who is better than a similarly equipped succubus. If you are instead going to equip an agonizer on your archon you can make the argument that a succubus is a better melee fighter and worth the extra 15 point.
Yeah got them backwards but yeah, she doesn't get a blaster but still she get's the WWP, and is actually good. is close combat. I wouldn't complain about a 4+ invulnerable and a 5+ FNP. That's not like TERRIBLE BAD.
Hollismason wrote: Why don't people give him the Shard of Anaris instead? Isn't that the like 40 point crazy weapon?
Shard is 40 points for fearless. The rest of the stats aren't super, so it really depends on what unit the autarch is going in and why. Instead you could just put Grisly trophies on a few transports and get more broad utility. Soulshrive is 10 points cheaper, AP2, master crafted and gains +1 str every time you cause a wound with it. With the autarchs high # attacks, very reliably gets to S5 after one round of combat, and shoots up quicker with each subsequent round.
You see shard a lot because of needing fearless to protect incredibly large point sink units, and then usually on farseers for whom there's no real change in combat output. Reavers are cheap enough to gamble relying on the Autarch's LD 10, especially with a few trophies in the army. At that point, why not make him a BAMF killing machine?
Ah okay yeah I wasn't sure on what exactly is the best CC load out. Fear could be good but notreally neccessary. If you were making say a "foot" slogging Autarch what would you be taking?I think you could make actually a all fearless army with Iyanden + Grotesquirie / Haemonoculus coven.
There's something there. I dunno what. It sure has hell wouldn't be a large model army though.
You mean, add 105 points to the cost of a unit for the webway?
I don't think Warriors bring enough to the table to justify adding 105 points to their unit.
I don't agree. I think it's something worth exploring. 4 units + full dark light upgrades + hammys is only 1380pts. In a 2k list that gives you plenty of points left to spend on other killy stuff. But that's 84 models that aren't going to run, and can shrug off significant damage..can tarpit…all placed exactly where you'd want them. To me, that is what they "bring to the table". Just the amount of poison output alone makes it worth pursuing. :shrug: Add in other threats and I think the idea has validity. If you choose to only run 3 units…that's even more points that can be spent to bring other threats to the table.
"Freakish Spectacle: Enemy units within 12" of one or more models from this Detachment suffer a -1 penalty to their Leadership value."
Sooo..... it's a -1 LD "from this detachment". Now what about my other coven detachments and formations that give me the same thing? I think it would stack, right?
Grotesquerie is 280 points base (2x3 grotesques and haemonculus).
Are you thinking of the 5 Talos formation?
Double Dark Artisans is likely to get Double Dark Artisans banned. You're going to have to feel out your meta, but if you start to spam the same formation again and again, you might have trouble with how the meta changes army construction rules.
No, I was thinking the Grotesquirie, in terms of 5 Grotesques, Raider , 5 Grotesques, Urien.
Although you can make it cheaper but not really, cause you need some way to get the Grotesques there so it's either WWP or Raider.
The Scalpel formation is the one that's super interesting, D3 victory points for First Blood, plus the ability to just not start on the board with anything except them and a ADL w/ Commlink.
CKO wrote: Coven ld modifier doesnt stack I believe it says one or more models within 12.
One or more, from that detachment.
Then you'd have another, from another detachment; and another from another detachment. @230 points per 2 venoms and 2x5 wracks, you could deep strike in a bubble of Ld-4 and start breaking units with the venoms shooting.
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Hollismason wrote: No, I was thinking the Grotesquirie, in terms of 5 Grotesques, Raider , 5 Grotesques, Urien.
Although you can make it cheaper but not really, cause you need some way to get the Grotesques there so it's either WWP or Raider.
The Scalpel formation is the one that's super interesting, D3 victory points for First Blood, plus the ability to just not start on the board with anything except them and a ADL w/ Commlink.
Urien won't fit in the raider with the Grots.
I'd go 2x3 with normal haemonculus (in raiders) and taking it multiple times.
Uriel really like riding in the safety of the allied wave serpent. Gives him a bigger bubble of +1 pain, and keeps him a hell of a lot safer.
HawaiiMatt wrote: One or more, from that detachment.
Then you'd have another, from another detachment; and another from another detachment. @230 points per 2 venoms and 2x5 wracks, you could deep strike in a bubble of Ld-4 and start breaking units with the venoms shooting.
You would get the -4 ld, but you would have to pay for 8 haemonculus right?
Does Dark Artisan and the Coven suppliment ld effects stack? (-2 ld)
I am wondering how does our melee rank compared to other armies? Has anyone broken down our units and figured out what common melee units they can and can not go up against? Possibly more important, who can a Succubus/archon accept a challenge from and who should you deny one from?
HawaiiMatt wrote: One or more, from that detachment.
Then you'd have another, from another detachment; and another from another detachment. @230 points per 2 venoms and 2x5 wracks, you could deep strike in a bubble of Ld-4 and start breaking units with the venoms shooting.
You would get the -4 ld, but you would have to pay for 8 haemonculus right?
Does Dark Artisan and the Coven suppliment ld effects stack? (-2 ld)
Nope, no haemis in that detachment. You still need a CAD in the list just not in the Scalpel Squadron. It's just 2x (Wracks in a Venom).
What sort of missiles did you use for the Razerwing?
. 10 points for 2 poison shots, you move fast, and ignore terrain.
