I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.
Hollismason wrote: I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.
Well considering there are alot of Sm playes, it doesnt matter too much.
Hollismason wrote: I think one of the things people miss about the Coven is that they have Fear and while not a amazing ability, you still do take fear checks against them at -1 LD.
Well considering there are alot of Sm playes, it doesnt matter too much.
the fundimental problem with 40k is that 60+% of the players are SM. Immune to fear and morale checks, 4s accross the board with a 3+ save. With that average, things that are geared to killing Geq or forcing morale checks are basically useless. At least mortars and flamers have a chance of downing a marine. PGLs do not....
I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. In one instance I got a turn 4 assault off on a 17x Boyz squad and with Furious charge was rolling 25 S4 attacks (3 shred) killed eight, and wiped them all out with a sweeping advance, losing just a single Wych. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points. They were even doing fine surviving shooting attacks and zero died in overwatch.
Oh and 9x Reavers with T5 was ridiculous. Reavers are one of the best units in 40k now.
Yeah I kind of don't think Wyches suck , I'm not sure why people still think this is the case when they have a 4++, 5+ in CC.If you charge turn 2 near a Haemy or have the Animus go off or both, they're turn 4 abilities, Urien especially seems like he'd mesh well.I think a cool army would be Coven w/ Formations w/ Wyches as allies w/ Flyers Small to medium size units of Grotesques to tie up units then Wyches to charge in to add in additional attacks etc...
Alot of lists are including Kabalite Warriors in the lists in 5 man squads w/ Blasters, why not just take 5 Wyches really.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of don't think Wyches suck , I'm not sure why people still think this is the case when they have a 4++, 5+ in CC.If you charge turn 2 near a Haemy or have the Animus go off or both, they're turn 4 abilities, Urien especially seems like he'd mesh well.I think a cool army would be Coven w/ Formations w/ Wyches as allies w/ Flyers Small to medium size units of Grotesques to tie up units then Wyches to charge in to add in additional attacks etc...
Alot of lists are including Kabalite Warriors in the lists in 5 man squads w/ Blasters, why not just take 5 Wyches really.
Wyches don't suck at all. Folks have been complaining that they suck because they can't wipe out Land Raiders and superheavy vehicles anymore which they never should have done in the first place. But they're buffed in a few ways CC-wise and utility-wise from last codex.
- you don't have to pay 2 pts/model for haywire now, so that's effectively a -2 pt decrease
- Power from Pain is *MUCH* better for them.
c
- Combat drugs are more useful in their new role because they usually didn't matter before when they were just suiciding against vehicles.
- Raiders are significantly safer so less risk of vehicle explosions. In fact a lot of opponents will think that shooting at Wyches with a 3+ jink isn't worth it and allow them to carry out their attacks.
I think people are still envisioning them as purely little tie-up suicide units though, which I think is wrong. Yes they can do that now still, however I think their best configuration is 6-8 Wyches in a Raider w/nightshields & disintigrator cannon, Hekatrix, and Hydra Gauntlets. That really feels like the sweet spot to me because it's fairly resilient with PfP and 3+ jink, can win CCs against shooty units and certain CC units, and the Hekatrix can tie up or maybe defeat guys with power fists.
What what what. You just listed two things that aren't improvements in anyway for their effectiveness in fighting with infantry. If you didn't want to wreck tanks with them you didn't have to take the HWG, now it's not even an option. This doesn't make them any better in strictly infantry at all. Whether combat drugs improved or not is debatable, but certainly not just by the logic that "they didn't matter vs vehicles", see the last statement. Still doesn't make them any better in CC. The loss of the Duke makes combat drugs significantly worse imo he was a must for Wych heavy armies and was just an excellent character.
I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points.
S5 attacks? How did you swing that? Wyches are 3, furious is +1, drugs you said was toughness.
25 attacks, half hit, half wound, save on 6+. You're looking at 6-7 kills as an average result. You get 8, which is just a little on the hot side.
Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.
Surviving Orcs should have downed 2 more with weight of attacks.
It's still a decent outcome, winning by 4 or 5, with a massive initiative advantage.
On the other hand, if those boyz got off a single round of normal shooting, the wyches aren't likely to arrive in good form.
Wyches are about as good as Warriors. Meaning that you've got to take some of them unless you're running unbound, and both are outclassed in every possible way by venoms and reavers.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.
EDIT: Nevermind, I'm an idiot... I'm confusing phases with sub-phases.
I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points.
S5 attacks? How did you swing that? Wyches are 3, furious is +1, drugs you said was toughness.
25 attacks, half hit, half wound, save on 6+. You're looking at 6-7 kills as an average result. You get 8, which is just a little on the hot side.
Overwatch (~30 shots, depending on weapons) should have produced 5 hits, 3+ to wound and FnP as the only save, producing 2 to 3 kills.
Surviving Orcs should have downed 2 more with weight of attacks.
It's still a decent outcome, winning by 4 or 5, with a massive initiative advantage.
On the other hand, if those boyz got off a single round of normal shooting, the wyches aren't likely to arrive in good form.
Wyches are about as good as Warriors. Meaning that you've got to take some of them unless you're running unbound, and both are outclassed in every possible way by venoms and reavers.
Typo on the S5, should have been S4 (which I mentioned it was in the previous sentence). Furious charge.
I didn't have any overwatch but it wasn't due to luck. Remember my Wyches were T4 so your math based on 3+ to wound is off. Also my Wyches were in cover so they had 5+ cover save, 5+ FNP. None died which is mathematically an average result.
I got +1T drugs and mulched scads Orks in CC. In one instance I got a turn 4 assault off on a 17x Boyz squad and with Furious charge was rolling 25 S4 attacks (3 shred) killed eight, and wiped them all out with a sweeping advance, losing just a single Wych. All those S5 attacks and a T4, 4++, 5+ FNP on defense was just stunningly good for 10 points. They were even doing fine surviving shooting attacks and zero died in overwatch.
Oh and 9x Reavers with T5 was ridiculous. Reavers are one of the best units in 40k now.
Shock prows allow rams not tank shock. Chain snares for tank shock.
I didn't have any overwatch but it wasn't due to luck. Remember my Wyches were T4 so your math based on 3+ to wound is off. Also my Wyches were in cover so they had 5+ cover save, 5+ FNP. None died which is mathematically an average result.
You're right, they were T4.
30 shots, 5 hits, 1/2 wound, 2/3rds fail 5+ cover, 2/3rds fail 5+ feel no pain.
Average of 1.11 wounds.
What odd about the wych love is that on turn 4 after rolling up +1 Toughness and getting into combat intact, they are about as good as a BA assault marine, without a jump pack.
Guess I should take another look at BA.
Hollismason: In the old dex, Archons could buy a phantasm grenade launcher, which would grant assault grenades and defensive grenades to everyone in his unit.
Probably, anyway small units of a Grotesques in Falcons, yay or nay.
It's the only 6 transport capacity vehicle I know of for Eldar unless there is a Forgeworld thing.
Only reason I brought it up was because of the Grotesquirie, but then it'd take 2 turns for the Grotesques to Charge , they'd have to get out, wait a turn, then charge.
Hollismason wrote: What I am surprised about is the fact that Lhaemans don't seem to be getting enough love.
Only problem with them is 0 Assault grenades. Still 10points for a 2+ Poison 6s instant death is a steal and they benefit from PfP.
Lhaemeans are fantastic. Good initiative and WS, 10 FREAKIN POINTS, for poisoned 2+ attacks. These ladies are way undercosted for their potential, and they will be an all-star assault unit. Problems with Wraithknights? Splinter pistol, charge, force saves. Same with Riptides, or any other high-T nasty out there.
When you think about it , 1 person court with Venom Cannon seems kind of like a steal, if you consider it to just be part of the vehicle, but Medusae cannot fire if the Venom moves 12. However it could deepstrike and flame something.
When you think about it , 1 person court with Venom Cannon seems kind of like a steal, if you consider it to just be part of the vehicle, but Medusae cannot fire if the Venom moves 12. However it could deepstrike and flame something.
I like the following:
1. a Raider full of Lhamaeans,
2. a Venom full of Sslyth with 1 Lhamaean for Leadership,
3. a Raider with a mixture of Sslyth and Lhamaeans,
4. a Raider with Medusae with a Lhamaean for LD
This is just the ones I like. The Ur-Ghuls aren't even bad, I just like Sslyth and Lhamaeans.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Probably, anyway small units of a Grotesques in Falcons, yay or nay.
It's the only 6 transport capacity vehicle I know of for Eldar unless there is a Forgeworld thing.
Only reason I brought it up was because of the Grotesquirie, but then it'd take 2 turns for the Grotesques to Charge , they'd have to get out, wait a turn, then charge.
I wouldn't put Grots in a Falcon for the exact reason you stated. Falcons need to sit in the backfield and say "pew pew". Grots need to bum-rush things and say "punch punch". Bad combo.
The bigger question is, if I put wych heads on warrior bodies with CCW and pistol, are they passable as Lahmaia?
It gives the 5+ armor appearance while still having the pistol/ccw.
Unit of 9 led by Archon for tanking overwatch?
If nothing else, that unit sure makes the Archon look like a pimp.
I think that would look fine, although I think the Lhaemen specifically are a all female cult. Just ordered some Grotesques myself as well as a 3rd edition Talos, for parts.
Sooooo.....
Does anyone think a Air Calvary army would do well. Like 3 Void Raven bombers , with 3 Raven Wing?
A Tantalus has 16 of transport capacity, this would allow 8 grotesques, they are open topped to so assault vehicules. That unit is about 500pts tho, its not bad but very expensive
Automatically Appended Next Post: Air cavalry will be an option I think, the DE flyers offer solutions against infantry, heavy infantry, MC AND Vehicules. An d the fact that they can jink on a 3+ makes them very worthwhile I think
I'm having a lot of success with my Razorwing Jetfighter in the new dex. Two scythes, two missiles, and splinter cannon hits hard as heck. I think it's an exceptional unit right now. Thoughts?
I'm going to use Bloodbrides in my next match. Maybe with combat drugs they'll get 5 attacks each on the charge or something. And while the Syren seems not worth it at first glance since the squad already has Ld9, she can get 5 (or 6) Agonizer/P-Sword attacks. And Wych weapons cost the same but Brides make better use of them.
They share the slot with Trueborn so it's hard to justify Brides in a competitive list but I'll see if I can pull them off sometime.
mercury14 wrote: I'm going to use Bloodbrides in my next match. Maybe with combat drugs they'll get 5 attacks each on the charge or something. And while the Syren seems not worth it at first glance since the squad already has Ld9, she can get 5 (or 6) Agonizer/P-Sword attacks. And Wych weapons cost the same but Brides make better use of them.
They share the slot with Trueborn so it's hard to justify Brides in a competitive list but I'll see if I can pull them off sometime.
I was finding a hard time to find a use for trueborn. Blasters are ok, but heatlances and haywire seems so much better. If you really want high strength shooting, allied eldar do it much better (able to run and then shoot, more guns, and better guns), and that's on a platform with 4+ armor, not to vanish when a stock flamer clips the transport.
I ordered raging heros Blood vestrals to use as lameans. Amazing models. I'll be running a full unit of them as well as trying a 8:2 sslyth:lamean mix.
I ordered raging heros Blood vestrals to use as lameans. Amazing models. I'll be running a full unit of them as well as trying a 8:2 sslyth:lamean mix.
Beautiful models, but doesn't really look like 5+ armor to me, they look far more like wyches.
I ordered raging heros Blood vestrals to use as lameans. Amazing models. I'll be running a full unit of them as well as trying a 8:2 sslyth:lamean mix.
Beautiful models, but doesn't really look like 5+ armor to me, they look far more like wyches.
True, but on the other hand official Lhamaean model do not seem to be wearing any more armour than wytches either. She basically has an armoured corset and shoulderpads.
I've contemplated a good way to build Lhamaeans, as even if I wouldn't mind the cost, multiples of the same single-pose model just will not do. I'm not sure whether to convert the finecast ones or use something completely different.
I ordered raging heros Blood vestrals to use as lameans. Amazing models. I'll be running a full unit of them as well as trying a 8:2 sslyth:lamean mix.
Beautiful models, but doesn't really look like 5+ armor to me, they look far more like wyches.
True, but on the other hand official Lhamaean model do not seem to be wearing any more armour than wytches either. She basically has an armoured corset and shoulderpads.
I've contemplated a good way to build Lhamaeans, as even if I wouldn't mind the cost, multiples of the same single-pose model just will not do. I'm not sure whether to convert the finecast ones or use something completely different.
I'm going to see if I can get some of the 2nd edition DE warriors that had women chests; use current warrior legs, wych heads and arms.
I don't want 10 of the same pose either; and I don't want them to look like wyches, since I will be running wyches as well.
What decision making process do you guys go through when arming your Talos? The obvious one is to put the ichor injector on when you are going to be facing monstrous creatures and other multi-wound enemies.
Most survivable unit for leaving everything off the board and going for the 2nd turn w/ Turn manipulation for beta strike?
2 Slyth w/ Venom? (115) (T5 , 4 W)
2 Small Squads of Mandrakes ( take up elites :( )
?????????
I kind of feel like Slyth are the best bet, because even if the transport gets say blown up by a Manticore or whatever, you've still got 4 T5 Wounds Out of LOS.
Hollismason wrote: Most survivable unit for leaving everything off the board and going for the 2nd turn w/ Turn manipulation for beta strike?
2 Slyth w/ Venom? (115) (T5 , 4 W)
2 Small Squads of Mandrakes ( take up elites :( )
?????????
I kind of feel like Slyth are the best bet, because even if the transport gets say blown up by a Manticore or whatever, you've still got 4 T5 Wounds Out of LOS.
Most survivable? Probably an allied wraith knight, or mandrakes in woods with a farseer casting invisibility, or an archon with a shadow field, invisibility and that spell that gives rerolling saves.
Talos/Cronos pain engines would probably work fine though.
ive been having a discussion with a friend about Dark eldar weaponry and we are disagreeing on somtehing.
I’m seing everyone tripping out on the Haywire Blasters, saying theyre amazing, even though I would agree that against many list they would be very good but as a competive list option I just cant see it since they just aren’t a “take all comers” type of option, there are quite a few no-vehicules or minimal/only flyers vehicules list out there, even in the competitive settings. To name just a few: Wraiths / Scythespam necron lists, Draigostar + dreadknight GK lists, Riptides + Crisis suits spam tau lists, all of the Tyranids armies and even just the jinking skimmers will be fine being shot at (looking mostly at you waveserpents but also Disruption pod Tau and Nightshield DE). Im seeing people talk about taking 2-3 units of haywire blaster scourge but against any of these lists your just losing 240-360pts before the game even started. At least darklight can hurt(and hurt very well) non-vehicules, I personally would consider the scourges with Blasters instead of Haywire Blasters since they are MUCH more versatile, even if it costs 20pts more per units and they lose 6” of range.
I tried to compare the Haywire effect vs the Darklight effect and Darklight is just so much better in most circumstances.
To start off, against MC of any kind the higher strength and AP makes the difference between a very effective weapon (dark light) and a mostly useless weapon (Haywire). Same thing for Terminators or even space marines . The Str8 of Darklight is great against T3-4 multiple wound targets as well for insta-gib potential.
But we all know that this is where the haywire blaster is weak, so lets consider where its strong: against vehicules. So against AV10: The darklight is still clearly better: same odds of damaging the vehicule but quadrupling the odds of getting a penetrating hit, which also get +1 on the vehicule damage table due to being AP2 . Against AV11: I would still argue that Darklight is better, sure you double the odds of doing nothing (“1” & “2”) but your still tripling the odds of a penetrating hit with once again the +1 on damage table Now Against AV12, 13 & 14 is where the Haywire does better: Ok the Darklight triples the odds of doing nothing compared to Haywire but to compensate, it still doubles to odds of getting a penetrating hit with still the +1 to damage table. Now I know that the Haywire is better but, really, its not by a clear margin, having a chance at destroying a vehicule in one hit is nice from the +1 to damage roll and doubling the odds of a pen which accentuates that ability makes it more likely to happen. Sure 50% chance of doing nothing isn’t great but its not bad, especially against a Landraider or Monolith.
So Haywire is clearly worse against EVERYTHING, except AV12,13 & 14 where it a BIT better. Hence I’m not too impressed by Haywire Blaster.
I see nothing wrong with taking a unit of Scourges with Haywire, but agree 100% that spamming 3 units is a good way to lose the game.I'd say taking a full 10 man squad of Scourges that way you at least at least have something that can deal with some horde.It's not a take on all comers weapon, I mean what are you going to do if you play against a all bike army that has flyers?ST4 aint that hot against T5, but at least if you had a few more 4 ST4 blasts and 12 Poison 4+ may do something.
as to my earlier best single figure to put on the board with a Beta Strike.
Does everyone think a Wraithknight or a Wraithguard behind a Aegis would be best for a Beta Strike list?
Wraithknight is pretty good for setting up a beta strike. Alternatively a vauls wrath battery of 3 shadow weavers could also be a nice, durable, and cheap option to accomplish this. With the wraithknight you will need to leave something else on the board if your opponent is bringing a grav centstar. Barrage artillery left out of LoS in ruins is almost impossible to remove turn 1.
Another alternative is to take two waveserpents with holofields and put them in each corners to start off with. This will make most opponents want to close on at least one of them as serpents are ridiculously hard to kill at 36"+ range. If they close this will leave the opponent out of position once the beta strike comes in. If they ignore them then serpent shields can pound away.
IMOMSU armies like DE can afford to take cheap ~100 pts units that have little effect against some opponents while being fantastic against others. In the case of haywire scourges this is important as one of the current top tier competitive units is Imperial Knights which they are a real threat against. Their major weakness is also somewhat mitigated (MC and high toughness) by the rest of the army having poison shooting and AP2 Str8 weapons being very easy to get in other places, ie blasters and lances on warriors, true born, and reavers, also can be put on raiders and come on Razorwing Jetfighter, pretty much all of which are either good, mandatory if not taking wyches, or great units.
Hornets are an Eldar Fast Attack choice from Imperial Armour Apocalypse (3rd edition).
They're a 2HP AV{11-11-10} fast skimmer. They look like a cross between a Wave Serpent and a Venom. The most common loadout fits a pair of pulse lasers, and costs 80 points for the privilege.
They get a couple USRs on top of that, but that's the gist.
as for beta strike units on the board I would just go for a bunch of 5man mandrakes units, you can hide them well and in any kind of cover they are really tough,
On this note maybe adding a tough character to them could make them even stickier, a fun idea me and my friend were workng on was Allied Karandras joinning a full unit of Mandrakes as he is also infiltrate so can join them, they give him Shrouding and bodies, he gives them assault grenades and a 2+ArSv in case the opponent has ignore cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: wow, hornets seem pretty awesome, for 80pts you get 4 bightlance shot at 48" range?! on a fast skimmer (moving 12" and still shooting all guns and jink possibilities) thats amazing
While you're on the subject of moving and jinking, they actually get an ability that lets them snap fire while turbo-boosting. And they get star engines, so...
They're not lances, though. They're just S8 AP2. If you want to hunt AV14, you'll need another weapon profile. Guess which one I suggest?
I think that Vaul's Weapons batteries may not be a good choice against Alpha Strike lists.That's the big problem, I mean you need the 2nd turn of Game turn 1. A Alpha Striking Drop Pod list could kill a Weapon Battery pretty easily.
Although...
Vauls Weapon Batter x 3
Aegis Defense line w/ Comm
160 is a pretty good deal...
Has anyone thought of purposefully manipulating the game to "start" on turn 3 with a Comm Relay and a Autarch?
I know it sounds nuts ,but when you think about it what's the turn that everything changes? Turn 3 everything get's feel no pain. More if you consider turn manipulation.
So Haywire is clearly worse against EVERYTHING, except AV12,13 & 14 where it a BIT better. Hence I’m not too impressed by Haywire Blaster.
Am I missing something?
3 Things.
1) The extra 6" of range isn't much, but going from within 18 to within 24 means you're a hell of a lot more survivable.
2) 20 points per unit cheaper is often 40-60 points in an army. It adds up.
3) Synergy. If you shouldn't take haywire because lots of people mech up, then you shouldn't take venoms, because lots of people do.
The DE army oozes anti-infantry shooting. Have a few units dedicated tank hunters doesn't hurt.
If an opponent shows up with no armor at all, I will accept that my scourge will be spending 120 points to dump out 3 poison shots and 4 S4 shots. And then grin as I unload the other ~100 to 200 poison shots.
I agree about Haywires, although I don't think there is much AV10-11 in the game at really where the lances are going to be better picks, I think it's more about the cost of opportunity in takening a 200 pt unit that effectively has a suicide tank nuke role. This will never trade well with transports, and in an ObSec transport heavy meta, I just don't like them. I think Reavers are the optimal choice, maybe a unit or two of Blasterborn deepstriking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I think people are skimping on the anti-infantry, splinter weaponry is pretty mediocre vs T4 and under, some CC units or flyers or Dissie Ravagers are highly underappreciated
Automatically Appended Next Post: What are people finding is the best Court composition?
Hollismason wrote: I think that Vaul's Weapons batteries may not be a good choice against Alpha Strike lists.That's the big problem, I mean you need the 2nd turn of Game turn 1. A Alpha Striking Drop Pod list could kill a Weapon Battery pretty easily.
What exactly is eating through 12 T7 wounds that can GtG in ruins and start out of LoS? Even a grav centstar needs to get ignore cover and manage to get LoS to do it.
It definitely is. This is my common setup for reserves base armies for both eldar and imperial armies (different artillery of course).
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone thought of purposefully manipulating the game to "start" on turn 3 with a Comm Relay and a Autarch?
I know it sounds nuts ,but when you think about it what's the turn that everything changes? Turn 3 everything get's feel no pain. More if you consider turn manipulation.
Of course they get 2 full turns to get to you.
I think this could have some major utility. Just put the right units on the board at the right time. This can also help keep your paper mache flyers alive as you can ensure they come on after you kill the quad gun or after the opponent's flyers. I am a real believer that the DE army plays better by not fighting until turn 2-3. Though with the addition of the covens tables for the haemies this is a bit less of an issue.
riptides and dreadkights with their 2+ arSv will be a pain, terminators too. I do see your point but I find that taking a bit less poison so you still get lots of Darklight will be a stronger TAC army then cramming tons of poison and a few haywire.
I know I am going to get alot of backlash for saying this but, reavers have some drawbacks. They are very vulnerable to templates especially heavy incinerators, hammer of wraith attacks require a good charge roll, and even with a good charge roll you have to be concern with overwatch, also only the models that get in base to base contact get the hammer of wraith attacks.
CKO wrote: I know I am going to get alot of backlash for saying this but, reavers have some drawbacks. They are very vulnerable to templates especially heavy incinerators, hammer of wraith attacks require a good charge roll, and even with a good charge roll you have to be concern with overwatch, also only the models that get in base to base contact get the hammer of wraith attacks.
Am I the only one having these problems?
Templates are indeed dangerous. Kill off their wielders with other stuff in your army beforehand and/or try to move out of their range.
Reavers are Dark Eldar Jetbikes. They've got a 12" movement and Fleet. It should be relatively easy to get them where you want them.
Overwatch might be troublesome from time to time. The damage might be mitigated with +1T drugs (it's a random roll, sadly) or an allied Jetbike Eldar Guy.
All in all, I think the Reavers are very good. Not "the best unit in the game" as some people claim, since they have their shortcomings, but they are indeed very good.
With 12" move it's not that hard to get they to all/mostly hammer unless you're running units of more than six (usually).
Templates, meh. If they're deep striking a template onto you it's obviously a threat for almost all unit in the codex and reavers are no exception. At least they get potential FnP now.
Reavers are some of the best units in the game because for just 16 points they can do so many things. They're the fastest units in the game, can hurt tanks, kill hordes, MEQ, TEQ. They're not objective secured but their speed and ability to kill most Objective secured enemy units makes up for that.
CKO wrote: I know I am going to get alot of backlash for saying this but, reavers have some drawbacks. They are very vulnerable to templates especially heavy incinerators, hammer of wraith attacks require a good charge roll, and even with a good charge roll you have to be concern with overwatch, also only the models that get in base to base contact get the hammer of wraith attacks.
Am I the only one having these problems?
Templates are indeed dangerous. Kill off their wielders with other stuff in your army beforehand and/or try to move out of their range.
Reavers are Dark Eldar Jetbikes. They've got a 12" movement and Fleet. It should be relatively easy to get them where you want them.
Overwatch might be troublesome from time to time. The damage might be mitigated with +1T drugs (it's a random roll, sadly) or an allied Jetbike Eldar Guy.
All in all, I think the Reavers are very good. Not "the best unit in the game" as some people claim, since they have their shortcomings, but they are indeed very good.
I've had problem with low charge rolls keeping the caltops out of combat, and had problems with decent overwatch killing the caltrops if they are too close to the front.
I have been playing with the concept of using very small beast packs (and hellions) to eat the over-watch. Both are fast enough to hit with the reavers.
Wall of Death is a huge problem, and a throw away unit seems like the answer.
Yeah, MSU is the answer. Have a small unit of Wyches with FnP eat overwatch, a few Khymera, etc. And 3-4 Incubi with 3+ armor and FnP will tolerate flamers well.
Small units of Grotesques seem to be a good answer as well. They're relatively cheap for the number of wounds they have , high toughness, Feel No Pain and brutal in CC.I could see a Grotesques, Wyches, Reavers army being really good. Incubi for the AP2.It'd work well with Reavers because smaller units can just leave the combat. A tactic of tying up units with Grotesques then repeatedly hit and running out of them seems to not be a pleasant experience.
Think of it like a boat. The Anchor is Wyches w/ their 4+ Invulnerable and 5++ or Grotesques , The boat is Helions , Reavers.
You just keep units in place for 1 turn so you can get 2 hit and runs. It's also incredibly cheap to do.
What do you guys think about using raiders for transports over venoms because the raider can block line of sight to our reavers. With advance aethersails the raider can move up to the enemy lines and the reavers can turbo boost right behind them. If the wyches in the raiders survive that turn they can charge and eat overwatch. But overwatch really isn't that big of a deal, with the exception of maybe tau. Most units do not have the volume of fire to do a lot of damage.
If you use another unit to eat overwatch for the reavers than there is less room for them to get into base to base contact as the first unit that charge is taking up the majority of the space. Especially when you look at the rules you must get as many units in base to base contact as possible so no being sneaky and leaving space for the reavers. Also reavers do not have fleet so the average roll of 7 with lets say 1 die from overwatch equals not alot in base to base contact or if you use another unit to eat overwatch that unit will take up space. Also the hammer of wraith attacks do not automatically hit rear armour it hits the side they are facing so I am not seeing how they are so good against vehicles. Also they have a 5+ armour save ignore cover weapons totally annihilate them, especially that smart weapon that tau have. Feel no pain can only do so much.
With that being said I am looking at the unit not the army, with the right army they are good, but I dont see mandatory written on this unit at all.
mercury14 wrote: Reavers can pen Land Raiders in CC with caltrops. They're good against vehicles.
If thats your only requirement for being good against vehicles is its chance of killing a Land Raider than ok. If you have 10 hits with caltrops on average thats 1 or 2 rending hits, stats wise its not good enough for me.
Raiders screening reavers works really well. I pack the raiders with warriors with splinter racks, and you get 24 shots on the over-watch with re-roll to hit. Raider gets the 3+ cover jinking.
I'm starting to like blasters on the reavers too. You can dart out from the Raider (wreckage), fire, and scoot back behind with the assault move. 116 points for a pair of very hard to kill, very mobile blaster shots isn't bad. With a good drugs roll, they can double duty in combat.
I think Grotesques in Raiders from the Grotesquirie Formation is probably the best bet for Tarpit in analog to assist Reavers or Reavers assist grotesques.
Small numbers , High ST, Multi Wound, and Feel No pain , plus Fear less.
If you don't wipe them out in 2 concurrent turns, then just leave combat with Hit and Run to go and help with another combat.
The thing with Dark Eldar, possibly more than any other army, is the game is won from really just two things.
1- the movement phase
2- unit allocation/target priority
1 is hard to discuss, because it is highly variable based on setup, terrain, opponents move etc.
2- You want to always be in the position where you have your worst unit(s) tying up the opponents best unit, and your best unit on their 2nd best, your 2nd best on their 3rd best, etc. This of course ties in with point 1, which is why 1 is first, because that lets you setup this scenario.
With 2 in mind yes reavers can pen a land raider, so can a 10 man warrior squad that has a blaster/s cannon in a raider with splinter racks, but there are things in the dark eldar list that can do it much better. ie haywire scourges, blasterborn deepstrike with an archon with blaster, 2 ravagers with dark lances.
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah it's really hard to pick between Blasters and Melta on the Reavers, I think Blasters might just be a bit better
Also HawaiiMatt I don't get your signature, even after reading the context. Why did you make that your quote?
Reavers is the only place we get 10 point blasters, we should be using them.
As for the sig, it's from the fantasy side of forum, a very vocal self proclaimed expert who nearly never actually plays. It's good to let people know where the advice is coming from. It's about time I update it anyway.
I like heat lances because of the AP1. To me that's worth it as 2 penetrates on a Imperial Knight could possibly destroy it , that's why I always say heat lance.
I'm sure there are lots of maths on the subject though.
Hollismason wrote: I like heat lances because of the AP1. To me that's worth it as 2 penetrates on a Imperial Knight could possibly destroy it , that's why I always say heat lance.
I'm sure there are lots of maths on the subject though.
I don't care about the math hammer, I always roll a 1 on the D3.
Is it just me, or is DE an army that's all fast attack?
Most cost effective Anti-tank, Anti-infantry, Anti-monster, and Anti-flyer are all in fast attack.
If I was building a WAAC unbound Dark Eldar army, I don't think I'd take anything but fast attack.
You can in fact take a combined arms detachment and have a Detachment that is Real Space Raiders, and a Detachment that is the Coven Detachment correcT?
Okay so Beast units can be taken in groups as small as one, and we get 6 FA slots. Or more than 6 if we bring multiple detachments. That means we can bring things like 10-point Khymera units running around all over the place, grabbing objectives or drawing overwatch. Or single Fiends. And would anyone bother targeting a single Flock with S6 fire to insta-kill it when there are far better things to aim S6+ guns at?
I haven't thought about it too much but I sense that tiny Beast units with one or maybe three models could have some real utility in a DE army. Obviously first blood would be an issue but if we get first turn we should be getting that anyway. If not, tiny beast units can easily hide behind BLOS cover or in reserve.
Next match I'll run a helper monkey along side my Wyches in Raiders to supplement their attacks with half a dozen S5 monkey punches and see how that goes.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so Beast units can be taken in groups as small as one, and we get 6 FA slots. Or more than 6 if we bring multiple detachments. That means we can bring things like 10-point Khymera units running around all over the place, grabbing objectives or drawing overwatch. Or single Fiends. And would anyone bother targeting a single Flock with S6 fire to insta-kill it when there are far better things to aim S6+ guns at?
I haven't thought about it too much but I sense that tiny Beast units with one or maybe three models could have some real utility in a DE army. Obviously first blood would be an issue but if we get first turn we should be getting that anyway. If not, tiny beast units can easily hide behind BLOS cover or in reserve.
Next match I'll run a helper monkey along side my Wyches in Raiders to supplement their attacks with half a dozen S5 monkey punches and see how that goes.
Thoughts?
i think this is an interesting point. there are two sides to it.
on one case, your likely to lose first blood, and in missions where units destroyed count as vp's your likely to lose a few there. You could argue that with 6 of these units that you could lose enough vp's to lose the battle. But on the otherhand, even if you lost all 6 units in overwatch or to enemy shooting, you could argue that they allowed you to win the battle. As by simply tying up a unit, or drawing away fire can certainly allow you to get your units into the right combats and positions.
My thoughts would be not to take units of 1. But to take units of 2-3, yes you are tripling the cost, but what your actually allowing for is the fact that by combining these units in charges with wyches or whatever other you its like reavers your dramatically increasing the beast packs chance of surviving combat or the overwatch.
For example, by using 1 khymera to charge a unit of marines or whatever, then charging with wyches. With only 1 khymera it is likely to be destroyed either by overwatch or by the marines striking back in combat. so in both cases you have given up a vp even if your wyches do end up winning the combat. But with a slightly larger unit they are much more likely to survive not only the overwatch, but also the combat, as youd hope that through the combination of high initiatives of DE units you can reduce/remove the enemies ability to kill the entire beast pack. Thus saving you losing a vp in some missions and also give the unit the ability to then make more assaults in the next turns or to simply go contest objectives.
I truly do think that MSUDE will be very effective, as with the idea mercury just gave, its not so much about bringing so many 1 model units to eat every overwatch, its about bringing 4-5 3man units (or other sizes around these areas) to eat specific overwatches, or tie up key units. in this case i would then consider taking certain combinations for certain tasks. So i think a clawed fiend combined with 3 khymera would be much more effective at tying up a unit for a turn. although you could argue that you could simply take 6 khymera for the same amount of wounds, but with a clawed fiend you can take as many wounds onto it as possible that way to prevent losing 25 percent of a unit (if you take a unit size of 5). To this extent, razorflocks would be better for eating overwatches as single units, due to the fact that with multiple wounds on the single unit at a cheaper cost makes it more likely they will survive to be backed up by your second charging unit.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so Beast units can be taken in groups as small as one, and we get 6 FA slots. Or more than 6 if we bring multiple detachments. That means we can bring things like 10-point Khymera units running around all over the place, grabbing objectives or drawing overwatch. Or single Fiends. And would anyone bother targeting a single Flock with S6 fire to insta-kill it when there are far better things to aim S6+ guns at?
I haven't thought about it too much but I sense that tiny Beast units with one or maybe three models could have some real utility in a DE army. Obviously first blood would be an issue but if we get first turn we should be getting that anyway. If not, tiny beast units can easily hide behind BLOS cover or in reserve.
Next match I'll run a helper monkey along side my Wyches in Raiders to supplement their attacks with half a dozen S5 monkey punches and see how that goes.
Thoughts?
That's what's tough about the DE book. It really depends on your local meta of what's ok to field. If you area is playing RAW (unbound or as many detachments as you want) DE become crazy good in that they have 10 point HQ's, 40 points troops and 10 point fast attack slots. You can easily over-whelm an opponents ability to target enough (sans Purifiers in a SW pod).
So what about trueborns with shredders? Seems like having 1-2 of them in venoms ds in is a pretty good utility unit that can dish out a lot of pain. Course you'd want some higher priority targets in there like grots or talos to take some heat off them, but overall they seem very appealing.
Hollismason wrote: Well with a combined arms detachment, Wracks suddenly become super good to take.
I mean it's feasible in 1850 to take 2 small squads of Grotesque, 1 large squad, the rest be Wracks in venoms.
Then be able to take
6 Fast Attack slots.
So yeah the book really shines when you get into the Combined Arms detachment because of what you can do.
I wouldn't sell short a army that had 3 to 4 squads of Grotesques backed up by Reavers and Fliers.
CAD doesn't make wracks troops. Even in the CCD (the coven special formation), they are still elites, it's just you get a ton of elite slots.
Wracks have a huge problem. They are average at best, and cost a stupid amount of money. I was wondering about the formation with precision strike, but I'm not going to shell out the money for the experiment.
IMOGW dropped the ball by not making Wracks and Hellions troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I like them with Shredders in a Venom. 135 points for 12 poison shots and 4 ST6 blasts is not terrible.
It's the 12" range is the problem. If a shredder had an 18" or 24" range it might get some love, but at 12", you're putting a dedicated shooting squad danger-close.
Hollismason wrote: Well with a combined arms detachment, Wracks suddenly become super good to take.
I mean it's feasible in 1850 to take 2 small squads of Grotesque, 1 large squad, the rest be Wracks in venoms.
Then be able to take
6 Fast Attack slots.
So yeah the book really shines when you get into the Combined Arms detachment because of what you can do.
I wouldn't sell short a army that had 3 to 4 squads of Grotesques backed up by Reavers and Fliers.
CAD doesn't make wracks troops. Even in the CCD (the coven special formation), they are still elites, it's just you get a ton of elite slots.
Wracks have a huge problem. They are average at best, and cost a stupid amount of money. I was wondering about the formation with precision strike, but I'm not going to shell out the money for the experiment.
IMOGW dropped the ball by not making Wracks and Hellions troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I like them with Shredders in a Venom. 135 points for 12 poison shots and 4 ST6 blasts is not terrible.
It's the 12" range is the problem. If a shredder had an 18" or 24" range it might get some love, but at 12", you're putting a dedicated shooting squad danger-close.
-Matt
They're not a bad unit for 115 points to get them into a Venom and have 5 guys inside it that are Fearless and come stock with FNP plus 4+ poison. That's cheap for 10 points a model.
Yeah that is such a huge fething disappointment that your main guys cannot get any fast moving transports. It's kind of ridiculous that every other codex can get some type of fast moving HQ except for Dark Eldar. Who get nothing.
So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.
Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?
The Shadow wrote: So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.
Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?
I played a game with 30 wyches, and then ran nearly the exact same army, except I swapped out wyches for allied Dire Avengers.
Honestly, I'm glad my wyches don't have arms yet (as I've been on the fence).
After that game, I'm 100% sold on not running wyches. Other units do the killing better (reavers), other units do the tanking better (grotesques/talos).
Really, the problem isn't wyches, it's 7th edition assault rules.
The dire avengers survived much better, and put out the hurt much more effectively. My conversion plan is to give all my warriors shuriken catapults (they look like 4+ armor to me) and give my wyches the splinter rifles (they can pass as 5+ armor).
So wyches are working for you with 200+ points of supporting characters? My problem with that is now it's a huge target, and it really suffers should it bump into a dedicated assault unit.
Best of all, you shouldn't hear any whining about Dire Avengers, unlike many eldar units.
The Shadow wrote: So how are people finding wyches overall, now? I know the original consensus was that they they're weren't great, but, having bought the old battleforce and the new one (both of which are good deals for me), I've been left with two units of them.
Eight of them I'll almost definitely use (with a Succubus and an Autarch in a raider) but is it worth having another unit? And if so, how should it be run? And is the upgrade to Bloodbrides worth it?
I'm loving Wyches this edition and take 2-3 units every match. I'm 5W, 0L, 1D with the new codex. They seem pretty good to me and perfectly worth 10 points.
For reference I run them in units of 6-8 with Hekatrix and Hydra Gauntlets. I sometimes run the Hekatrix (need the Ld point) with haywire grenades but that depends on how much anti-tank I'm bringing elsewhere. I run them in a Raider with NS, dissies.
Right now I'm running two units like that plus a third no upgrades or just hydras, in a Venom.
The Wyches rush or counter anything my opponents move forward. The rest of the army's poison shooting softens targets that the Wyches then beat in CC or at least tie them up, providing me with a nice amount of control. I run Reavers too (sometimes incubi too), so if the Wyches need help they show up and wreck face.
I think Wyches are pretty good honestly. Fun too. I just finished ten more of them today so I have 30.
Haven't used bloodbrides yet but they can be effective. I just have issues with them in the elite slot because I want to run trueborn. I plan on using one unit of BBs next time I play though.
It costs points but a Syren with Agonizer is pretty fearsome. Five attacks, they're like a mini Succubus.
I don't understand why people don't like Wracks especially from the coven detachment or from the Scarlet Epicureans Formation.So what's the deal with the Scarlet Epicureans formation? Why is it such a big deal?Well first off you have to take a Haemy and you have to take a Cronos.They get Precision Strikes which is alright, but the big thing is that both units treat the turn 1 higher than normal which of course stacks with the Haemonoculus.The big thing is that.So if you deep striked them with the Haemy you'd get them up to turn 5 when they charged, so they'd have Zealot.So they'd reroll all of the misses.That's pretty good.Wracks though in general are really good with the coven detachments.
Seriously.
They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.
I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.
I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.
Hollismason wrote: I don't understand why people don't like Wracks especially from the coven detachment or from the Scarlet Epicureans Formation.So what's the deal with the Scarlet Epicureans formation? Why is it such a big deal?Well first off you have to take a Haemy and you have to take a Cronos.They get Precision Strikes which is alright, but the big thing is that both units treat the turn 1 higher than normal which of course stacks with the Haemonoculus.The big thing is that.So if you deep striked them with the Haemy you'd get them up to turn 5 when they charged, so they'd have Zealot.So they'd reroll all of the misses.That's pretty good.Wracks though in general are really good with the coven detachments.
Seriously.
They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.
I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.
I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.
I don't think people think they suck in Coven lists. But used out of the main codex they're underwhelming.
Seriously.
They're Fearless 10 point troops with 2 CC weapons that are 4+ poisoned and they come stock with FNP.
I don't get the dislike, course I haven't got that much experience in but I have some.
I have had no success with the Animus Vitae that thing fething sucks btw grr it never works.
It's not that they are bad, it's that they aren't good enough to shine. Fearless is good, but you've got to do something besides just sit in combat.
10 T4 models with feel no pain, or 1 T7 model with 3+ armor and feel no pain. Both are 100 points.
Animus Vitae is terrible, odds of it working is very slim, much better options for the 0-1 relic.
They're more mobile than a Talos though and put out more attacks with probably the same odds. 10 of them with fearless with 3 attacks on the charge. WS4 isn't terrible either, especially if they get Zealot.
That's why I think the Scarlet Epicurions is a good formation. Specifically that formation. +2 to the turn total, hell yes.
I mean what are the odds 10 charge versus a Rip Tide versus a Talos Charging it.
I actually think they messed up and it's suppose to only trigger it's ability once a game. IE you can shoot it more than once but it only activates once.
It's just a insanely improbably thing that will occur.
Animus Vitae is terrible, odds of it working is very slim, much better options for the 0-1 relic.
wait i thought it had been set at: 1 relic per character and 1 of each per army? As i'd be taking this as standard, is +1 turn of PFP worth those points? most definitely unless you have specific reason to bring another relic and have only 1 HQ. yeh if you dont get it that sucks, but when you do its surely such an amazing multiplier.
It's so incredibly specific in what is required with it's str range and what have you it just cannot be relied on to reliably work plus you have to give up that Relic slot.
Most of the Relics are pretty decent. Armour of Misery etc..
EDIT:
What do people think of this it's kind of expensive but I think is cool as hell as a "strikeforce"
It's a 5 man unit but Lelith , Klaivex and the Haemy in the unit has Rampage and treats the turn as 1 turn higher. The Haemonoculus would be from the coven. It's kind of the foundation for a themed Coven and Wyches army. Basic idea is that the Haemonoculus Covens have teamed with the Wyches under Vect for a raid.
Leliths kind of awesome because she get's Power from the Pain so in combat she'd have a 3+ 5+, plus she rerolls all to hits and wounds and has like a gazillion attacks, plus she can get furious charge.
Thanks for the prelies on the Wyches topic, guys. I might see if I can somehow magnetise them to their bases, which allows me to run them as Sisters of Slaughter for WHFB if they don't work out so well.
The supporting characters' role of adding extra punch to a wych squad is only secondary though. The Succubus is there because I need a HQ and the Autarch is there for reserve manipulation.
It's really annoying DE don't have any reserve manipulation in their own codex. I dunno, maybe it's supposed to portray how indisciplined their armies are ("sorry, can't fight now, doin' all the drugs") but it just seems like an oversight.
SisterSydney wrote: It's really annoying DE don't have any reserve manipulation in their own codex. I dunno, maybe it's supposed to portray how indisciplined their armies are ("sorry, can't fight now, doin' all the drugs") but it just seems like an oversight.
The Improved comms and advanced tactical planning was left in the garage next to the Archons jetbike and skyboard.
I just hope they continue to neuter all codex characters as much as they did for DE.
im still holding out the chars will be more like the Ork ones;
Where they released a crazy amount of formations, each often with its own character sorta thing. I think that is a decent way to go, minus the cost of multiple books. Gona need a whole bookcase to hold everything you need to play warhammer thesedays.
Would be cool to see characters return this way. the only fear is how long does it take for GW to releasre these :/
I don't anticipate seeing any supplements like the orc/imperials one with Dark Eldar stuff in them for a while.
possibly ever.
The problem is they are not seen as one of the "main bad guy going to end the world" type of threats for campaigns.
The only campaign book I recall seeing them in was "valedor" where essentially they were on the "good" side fighting with eldar against nids, and that was an apoc book.
the dark eldar are ultra evil, but they exist in a weird paradox in that they are essentially a neutral force in the scheme of things. They have their own plots, but they are not really based on conquering and or destroying the galaxy like many of the other evil factions. As such its unlikely they will be in a campaign supplement.
We may one day see some supplements for wych cults, or kabal of the black hand(would be a good way to return vect...), or maybe an supplement that has eldar+dark eldar versus something and we might see a few formations there.
The recent pending release of nid drop spores makes the above seem probable in the not so distant forever away future.
Not saying it's overly effective, but i saw something fun someone did with Lelith to make her work stupendously well. It may have something to do with the fact he was playing against a Melee Ork and Melee Tyranid list, but still a fun idea.
Farseer
Farseer with Stone
Lelith
2 Warlocks
All in a Venom. Probably expensive as hell, I'd guess around 500pts? But by god did it work, the Farseer with Stone got Fortune, Doom and Prescience while the other Farseer got Sanctuary and Hammer Hand while the Warlocks got some other buffs. It. was. Slaughter.
Lelith charged into a unit of 3 Carnifexes at Str 6 re-rolling to hit and wound with a 2+ invulnerable save in combat. She killed 2 Carnifexs and wounded the other before they lifted a finger. This was turn 2 by the way. She carried on to eat an Ork Warboss, a Tyranofex and a MANZ Missile before the game was called.
As i said, not the best combo at all, costs way to much points and you might not get those powers, but the utter glee on his face when he rolled 10 attacks at Str 7 (Hammerhand, Empower, Furious Charge) with re-rolls and took a Tyrannofex off the board was worth sharing with you guys.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Not saying it's overly effective, but i saw something fun someone did with Lelith to make her work stupendously well. It may have something to do with the fact he was playing against a Melee Ork and Melee Tyranid list, but still a fun idea.
Farseer
Farseer with Stone
Lelith
2 Warlocks
All in a Venom. Probably expensive as hell, I'd guess around 500pts? But by god did it work, the Farseer with Stone got Fortune, Doom and Prescience while the other Farseer got Sanctuary and Hammer Hand while the Warlocks got some other buffs. It. was. Slaughter.
Lelith charged into a unit of 3 Carnifexes at Str 6 re-rolling to hit and wound with a 2+ invulnerable save in combat. She killed 2 Carnifexs and wounded the other before they lifted a finger. This was turn 2 by the way. She carried on to eat an Ork Warboss, a Tyranofex and a MANZ Missile before the game was called.
As i said, not the best combo at all, costs way to much points and you might not get those powers, but the utter glee on his face when he rolled 10 attacks at Str 7 (Hammerhand, Empower, Furious Charge) with re-rolls and took a Tyrannofex off the board was worth sharing with you guys.
.... I sometimes run the Hekatrix (need the Ld point) with haywire grenades but that depends on how much anti-tank I'm bringing elsewhere. I run them in a Raider with NS, dissies.
I find it ironic with the Haywire tactic on wyches, that wyches now get the 4++ against 'all wounds' in the fight subphase, effectively neutering the whole kamikaze thing from the previous dex. Only, now all wyches can't carry haywire. Only the Hekatrix.
It's really weird that they name all of these special characters in the Dark Eldar book, but didn't make the models.I want the Mandrake Special Character.Speaking of which does anyone use Mandrakes, the models are really cool and I was thinking of getting some.I think they'd work in a Urien list with Scouting Talos.They'd be ST5 on the charge with Furious Charge.
Scout forward w/ Talos, Move Mandrakes, Urien comes on with a unit of Grotesques.
Hollismason wrote: It's really weird that they name all of these special characters in the Dark Eldar book, but didn't make the models.I want the Mandrake Special Character.Speaking of which does anyone use Mandrakes, the models are really cool and I was thinking of getting some.I think they'd work in a Urien list with Scouting Talos.They'd be ST5 on the charge with Furious Charge.
Scout forward w/ Talos, Move Mandrakes, Urien comes on with a unit of Grotesques.
Mandrakes are great. Point for point, they put as many wounds on a T4 target as stealth suits would have.
It would be really cool and hilarious to do 20 to 30 Mandrakes, then the Corpse thief Formation with Deep Striking Grotesques w/ Haemies and Urien. Just take a normal Dark Eldar detachment, Corpse Thief , Grotesquirie.
You'd have no defense against fliers other than like Twin linked Heat lances if you put that on the Talos.
I'm a bit late to the DSing Heatlance discussion but the chances of getting into Melta range via Deepstrike with these things is actually pretty good.
Say you are trying to DS 1" off the bottom right corner of a Land Raider. Think of it as a coordinate system, with the origin being your succseful hit, and the Land Raider taking up the first quadrant. That basically gives you a 75% chance of landing somewhere successfully, and the vast majority of that area will still be in the 9" melta range (as their will only be a small section 9+ inches directly away from the LR that will land you out of range, on the flip side, you will have some areas on the other side of the LR that will be successful). So, for simplicity sake, lets called it 75% (intuitively I think it's higher then that).
33% direct hit + 75%(66%) for scatter but still in Melta range leaves ~ an 82.5% chance of success. Really pretty reasonable odds.
Succubus with glaive, armor of misery, goes with 7x Wyches
(Assortment of Trueborn, ravagers, a couple Kabs)
I ripped the stuffing out of Space Marines, tabling them in five turns except for his flyer. The 1x Beast units were excellent. He didn't want to devote entire shooting attacks to Khymera but was forced to, as they ran around the map taking maelstrom objectives. It felt very rewarding to cause his units to focus on tiny 30-point units, as it gave my Wyches breathing room. The Fiends all made it into CC, one destroyed his Thunderfire cannon, another leapt into his aegis defense line and bashed up his Devastators manning the quad gun.
The pressure of all this let my two Ravager units with DLs fire all game, only getting shot at once (immobilized, kept firing). My combat drug was +1 attack which was RIDICULOUS. Five-attack Bloodbrides.
ShadarLogoth wrote: I'm a bit late to the DSing Heatlance discussion but the chances of getting into Melta range via Deepstrike with these things is actually pretty good.
Spoiler:
Say you are trying to DS 1" off the bottom right corner of a Land Raider. Think of it as a coordinate system, with the origin being your succseful hit, and the Land Raider taking up the first quadrant. That basically gives you a 75% chance of landing somewhere successfully, and the vast majority of that area will still be in the 9" melta range (as their will only be a small section 9+ inches directly away from the LR that will land you out of range, on the flip side, you will have some areas on the other side of the LR that will be successful). So, for simplicity sake, lets called it 75% (intuitively I think it's higher then that).
33% direct hit + 75%(66%) for scatter but still in Melta range leaves ~ an 82.5% chance of success. Really pretty reasonable odds.
Except if you scatter on top of the tank you're trying to melta, don't you Mishap?
ShadarLogoth wrote: I'm a bit late to the DSing Heatlance discussion but the chances of getting into Melta range via Deepstrike with these things is actually pretty good.
Spoiler:
Say you are trying to DS 1" off the bottom right corner of a Land Raider. Think of it as a coordinate system, with the origin being your succseful hit, and the Land Raider taking up the first quadrant. That basically gives you a 75% chance of landing somewhere successfully, and the vast majority of that area will still be in the 9" melta range (as their will only be a small section 9+ inches directly away from the LR that will land you out of range, on the flip side, you will have some areas on the other side of the LR that will be successful). So, for simplicity sake, lets called it 75% (intuitively I think it's higher then that).
33% direct hit + 75%(66%) for scatter but still in Melta range leaves ~ an 82.5% chance of success. Really pretty reasonable odds.
Except if you scatter on top of the tank you're trying to melta, don't you Mishap?
Scatter happens in 2 dimensions, while melta range is a 1 dimensional problem. If you scatter the full 12", but tangential to the line between the scourges and the tank you still have the exact same range to target.
33% of the time you dont scatter
66% of the time you scatter
~25% of the time you do scatter, you go in a direction that does not greatly affect your range to target
~50% of the time you do scatter you go in a direction that somewhat affects your range to target
~25% of the time you do scatter, you go in a direction that does GREATLY affect your range to target (getting closer or further away)
then you have to determine how much you scatter. You have a 40% chance of scattering not very far and a very small chance of scattering more than 9", which in 2D means you are often going to be still in range.
SisterSydney wrote: It's really annoying DE don't have any reserve manipulation in their own codex. I dunno, maybe it's supposed to portray how indisciplined their armies are ("sorry, can't fight now, doin' all the drugs") but it just seems like an oversight.
The Improved comms and advanced tactical planning was left in the garage next to the Archons jetbike and skyboard.
I just hope they continue to neuter all codex characters as much as they did for DE.
-Matt
We all know that GW didn't offer those HQ options because they couldn't be bothered to make the models themselves, and after their debacle with the CHS lawsuit, they're not going to leave any room for a third party to make a model in their place.
Exergy wrote: You have a 40% chance of scattering not very far and a very small chance of scattering more than 9", which in 2D means you are often going to be still in range.
You start 1" away, so a 8" scatter directly away puts the first model exactly in range, and at least 2 of the next 4.
A 9" scatter is going to leave you with only a single model at half range.
10" scatter gives you a handful of S6 shots vs his AV12 (or worse).
When you do scatter, you have a 4/6 scatter, 1/4 of those are moving directly away, 1/6 are moving far enough where you lose melta.
Interestingly, 4/6 scatter, 1/4 move toward the tank, and depending on the tank, you might get really lucky and scatter past it.
So, when fighting in a salt flat with no other terrain or enemies to scatter into, heat lances are good. If the enemy has bubbled wrapped at all, or shored up against impassable terrain, odds get much worse.
I'm noticing everyone is taking wyches in units of 7 or 8, 50/50 with hekatrix but no upgrades on her. I'm not quite sure I follow the reasoning here.
If you plan on running an ID with them then yeah drop them to 9 to make space on the raider but as a standalone squad wouldn't it be best to run them as 10 so you get the three wych weapons? At 5 points a piece I think that's a bargain. Hekatrix I can understand running naked just for the extra attacks and LD but if you got some points to spare wouldn't a power sword be ok too? I know strength 3 sucks but ap3 is still decent (agonizer on a hekatrix seems over costed but on a syren it might be decent), especially since I see wyches being most useful in causing wounds then clearing house with a sweeping advance.
Also I see a lot of people running two raiders with wyches then one venom with wyches, is there a reason for this? A specific strategy or something?
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm noticing everyone is taking wyches in units of 7 or 8, 50/50 with hekatrix but no upgrades on her. I'm not quite sure I follow the reasoning here.
If you plan on running an ID with them then yeah drop them to 9 to make space on the raider but as a standalone squad wouldn't it be best to run them as 10 so you get the three wych weapons? At 5 points a piece I think that's a bargain. Hekatrix I can understand running naked just for the extra attacks and LD but if you got some points to spare wouldn't a power sword be ok too? I know strength 3 sucks but ap3 is still decent (agonizer on a hekatrix seems over costed but on a syren it might be decent), especially since I see wyches being most useful in causing wounds then clearing house with a sweeping advance.
Also I see a lot of people running two raiders with wyches then one venom with wyches, is there a reason for this? A specific strategy or something?
I'm hesitant to run 10x wyches with upgrades because I know it will be a fire magnet. I think it's doable, however DE tend to do best in multiple small units. I'll probably try 10x in a raider soon though.
I tend to get Hekatrixes for the Ld point. That being said, I think an agonizer on her works too. I wouldn't run all of them with agonizers, maybe just one. Wyches will often end up in CC with units with a 2+ armor, so putting agonizers on ever Hekatrix seems like diminishing returns to me.
Running them in Raiders is *great* this edition, because it makes them a much less-attractive target than ever before due to the 3+ jink save. My experience has been that people either try to ignore them for a turn or two which allows them to carry out their attack plan, or they waste a lot of firepower on a low-point Wych squad that jinks most of it away. Either way I usually feel like I'm winning.
Three Wych squads in Raiders with NS seems to be the magic number for me. Simply put, early in the game it's really hard to stop three Raiders with shooting unless your opponent ignores a lot of cover. If I run a 4th squad I'll put them in Venoms.
the problems with mathematical analysis of DSing;
If you think of scatter as a circle, with 1 inch smaller circles within each, thus creating your distances. The issues are then;
A) your unit size will affect whether you successfully DS, as even if you scatter but its not within the area of the tank there is still a chance when placing your models you will touch something and thus unsuccessfully DS.
B) Actually cant think of a B that hasnt been mentioned
But the way to mathematically do it would be I think;
Use the circles, the scatter dice is represented by an angle from 0 to 360, so this you need to randomly generate 66% of the time, the distance is then set by a random value generated between 2 and 12, this would then give you a resultant point. You would want to run a simulation of this calculation a 1000 times, then by looking at the resultant if drawn out, you would be able to determine;
What provides the least chance of mishap (IE the area that has the least points of data) and which distance provides the highest chance of getting into melta with minimal chance of mishap (as this will be higher than the distance for lowest chance of mishap) - it is a slight trade off
I dont think this will be too hard to simulate, i may have a try tomorrow at work.
I also think it might be favourable to consider the scourges as the static object and that your target is what is moving away from you, but not sure il have a think
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm noticing everyone is taking wyches in units of 7 or 8, 50/50 with hekatrix but no upgrades on her. I'm not quite sure I follow the reasoning here.
If you plan on running an ID with them then yeah drop them to 9 to make space on the raider but as a standalone squad wouldn't it be best to run them as 10 so you get the three wych weapons? At 5 points a piece I think that's a bargain. Hekatrix I can understand running naked just for the extra attacks and LD but if you got some points to spare wouldn't a power sword be ok too? I know strength 3 sucks but ap3 is still decent (agonizer on a hekatrix seems over costed but on a syren it might be decent), especially since I see wyches being most useful in causing wounds then clearing house with a sweeping advance.
Also I see a lot of people running two raiders with wyches then one venom with wyches, is there a reason for this? A specific strategy or something?
I'm hesitant to run 10x wyches with upgrades because I know it will be a fire magnet. I think it's doable, however DE tend to do best in multiple small units. I'll probably try 10x in a raider soon though.
I tend to get Hekatrixes for the Ld point. That being said, I think an agonizer on her works too. I wouldn't run all of them with agonizers, maybe just one. Wyches will often end up in CC with units with a 2+ armor, so putting agonizers on ever Hekatrix seems like diminishing returns to me.
Running them in Raiders is *great* this edition, because it makes them a much less-attractive target than ever before due to the 3+ jink save. My experience has been that people either try to ignore them for a turn or two which allows them to carry out their attack plan, or they waste a lot of firepower on a low-point Wych squad that jinks most of it away. Either way I usually feel like I'm winning.
Three Wych squads in Raiders with NS seems to be the magic number for me. Simply put, early in the game it's really hard to stop three Raiders with shooting unless your opponent ignores a lot of cover. If I run a 4th squad I'll put them in Venoms.
Is 10x wyches with 3x wych weapons and a naked hekatrix in a raider a big target? I'm not sure since I only started collecting my DE models so far and haven't played with them yet. I don't think that squad is too expensive so if they dump firepower on it then you jink and get 3+ with NS or they don't shoot at it and you pretty much guarantee an assault next turn. Win/Win I suppose right? I dunno I guess I'm sold on the wych weapons cause I think they are cheap force multipliers for your wych units, it doesn't make sense to me to not take a squad of ten with 3 wych weapons unless you want them joined by an IC or want to put them in a venom.
Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
No but I saw it in action - it was very durable when deployed in ruins (3+ armour, 4+ cover, 5+ FnP). Didn't take a lot of wounds and just regained them all when IWND kicked in.
I think they ran it barebones (TL Splinter Cannon) all I can remember was 'going to shoot that unit with the Talos' *chucks a bucket of dice*
Solar Shock wrote: the problems with mathematical analysis of DSing;
If you think of scatter as a circle, with 1 inch smaller circles within each, thus creating your distances. The issues are then;
A) your unit size will affect whether you successfully DS, as even if you scatter but its not within the area of the tank there is still a chance when placing your models you will touch something and thus unsuccessfully DS.
B) Actually cant think of a B that hasnt been mentioned
But the way to mathematically do it would be I think;
Use the circles, the scatter dice is represented by an angle from 0 to 360, so this you need to randomly generate 66% of the time, the distance is then set by a random value generated between 2 and 12, this would then give you a resultant point. You would want to run a simulation of this calculation a 1000 times, then by looking at the resultant if drawn out, you would be able to determine;
What provides the least chance of mishap (IE the area that has the least points of data) and which distance provides the highest chance of getting into melta with minimal chance of mishap (as this will be higher than the distance for lowest chance of mishap) - it is a slight trade off
I dont think this will be too hard to simulate, i may have a try tomorrow at work.
I also think it might be favourable to consider the scourges as the static object and that your target is what is moving away from you, but not sure il have a think
You need not run the simulation any times. You just create a 2D map of where you can end up.
33% of the time you start at the center of a circle where you started to DS. then there are 11 different circles going outwards from your start points. Each has a well known probability of landing on them(2.7, 5.8, 8.3, 11.1, 13.8, 16.6, 13.8....) lowered by the chance that you will only scatter 66% of the time.
Once you know you are on one of those circles, you need to divide the circles into sectors, perhaps 10 sectors going around the circumference, each with a 10% chance of arriving at.
Then you need to evaluate what you achive by landing there. Did you mishap, are you in melta range, or are you out of melta range. Then add up all the probabilities. At the extreme range you are over simplifying with the 10 sectors, but 12" scatter is rare. If you like you can add more sectors there and less at lover levels, 2" scatter is also rare but usually doesnt affect you much.
I would drop 5-6" away with scourges. Then if you scatter mostly towards, you might not mishap if you roll low. If you scatter mostly away you might still be in melta range if you scatter away. If you scatter tangentally, you will almost surely still be in melta range. Gives you a very good chance of being in range and not misshaping.
Anyway given the terrain, table edge, unit placement and size of the tank you will get different expected probabilities. Depending on how you play, your milage will vary. But remember, if the tank is set up near the board edges with lots of dangerous terrain about it, it probably has limited fields of fire. If the tank is completely surrounded in bubblewrap, that bubble wrap costs points.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
No but I saw it in action - it was very durable when deployed in ruins (3+ armour, 4+ cover, 5+ FnP). Didn't take a lot of wounds and just regained them all when IWND kicked in.
I think they ran it barebones (TL Splinter Cannon) all I can remember was 'going to shoot that unit with the Talos' *chucks a bucket of dice*
for 600+ points it better chuck a bucket of dice. Note that it has a chance to one shot a wraithknight, it averages 3.75 wounds after saves on anything within range with a 3+, but boon or bust you could end up doing 6 in one round of shooting.
Do you think that the best lay out is just straight up Splinter Cannons for the Talos w/ Ichor Injectors?
I'm almost up to five ( Built my own!)
So I was thinking this would be cool
Talos Formation
Dark Artisan
2 to 3 Squads of Mandrakes
Whatever else I could fit in the 2000 points
It looks fun and if you were playing Relic it'd be almost a instant win. It's I think at a certain point like turn 3 to 4 that it's almost impossible to kill that Talos unit because of Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die.
On the Talos formation, I'd either stock splinter cannon, or haywire, depending on how much other shooting you have. I'd give a couple of them injectors.
With Dark Artisan coming down in the backfield, you can pin the opponent in place.
If I had the models, I'd love to try 3x Talos formations.
15 Talos, nothing else. Yeah, that Talos is my warlord, good luck with that.
Dark Artisan is another that's just so crazy good it's ridiculous though. That things a Death Star and relatively cheap.
Give the Haemonoculus a Sump, Flesh Gauntlet, and a WWP you're good to go. Ten points to give that Haemy Rampage and he's always going to be pretty much out number, yes please. I tried it out but picked a Heat Lance for the Talos, just because you get the no scatter Deep Strike and it's a melta weapon
Yeah it's a cool formation that's not getting used. I think it could be super powerful with Eldar allies casting Invisibility on it or Shrouding or whatever.That'd pretty much make it indestructible once it get's to a certain turn. It's already indestructible almost after turn 4.
No but I saw it in action - it was very durable when deployed in ruins (3+ armour, 4+ cover, 5+ FnP). Didn't take a lot of wounds and just regained them all when IWND kicked in.
I think they ran it barebones (TL Splinter Cannon) all I can remember was 'going to shoot that unit with the Talos' *chucks a bucket of dice*
I don't believe Talos/Chronos have PfP, so you wouldn't ever gain IWND, correct?
You need not run the simulation any times. You just create a 2D map of where you can end up.
33% of the time you start at the center of a circle where you started to DS. then there are 11 different circles going outwards from your start points. Each has a well known probability of landing on them(2.7, 5.8, 8.3, 11.1, 13.8, 16.6, 13.8....) lowered by the chance that you will only scatter 66% of the time.
Once you know you are on one of those circles, you need to divide the circles into sectors, perhaps 10 sectors going around the circumference, each with a 10% chance of arriving at.
Then you need to evaluate what you achive by landing there. Did you mishap, are you in melta range, or are you out of melta range. Then add up all the probabilities. At the extreme range you are over simplifying with the 10 sectors, but 12" scatter is rare. If you like you can add more sectors there and less at lover levels, 2" scatter is also rare but usually doesnt affect you much.
I would drop 5-6" away with scourges. Then if you scatter mostly towards, you might not mishap if you roll low. If you scatter mostly away you might still be in melta range if you scatter away. If you scatter tangentally, you will almost surely still be in melta range. Gives you a very good chance of being in range and not misshaping.
Anyway given the terrain, table edge, unit placement and size of the tank you will get different expected probabilities. Depending on how you play, your milage will vary. But remember, if the tank is set up near the board edges with lots of dangerous terrain about it, it probably has limited fields of fire. If the tank is completely surrounded in bubblewrap, that bubble wrap costs points.
You are right, simulation wouldn't be neccessary if you had the circle divided into 10 sectors, as youd have only a few calcs. Might have a little look in abit then I know that obviously board setup and so many other factors play into it, but in general knowing what is the most effective distance you can then on the fly factor in other units
I generally tend to feel 5-6" away while a very safe bet, could be reduced, im expecting 2-3" being the best, yeh you have a higher chance of misshap but I think that is a trade-off for the fact you'd hardly ever be out of melta range.
You are right, simulation wouldn't be neccessary if you had the circle divided into 10 sectors, as youd have only a few calcs. Might have a little look in abit then I know that obviously board setup and so many other factors play into it, but in general knowing what is the most effective distance you can then on the fly factor in other units
I generally tend to feel 5-6" away while a very safe bet, could be reduced, im expecting 2-3" being the best, yeh you have a higher chance of misshap but I think that is a trade-off for the fact you'd hardly ever be out of melta range.
Honestly, I think simulating it is as simple as calculating probabilities in all the different sectors. I did a simulation some time ago of this and got a chance of ~80% to land within 9''. The chance was pretty constant within 9'' from the target, but only if the target has a sufficient depth. If you're looking at a target which is "thinner" (in the radial direction) than ~5-6'' you will be better of deepstriking at 1'' (at that point the chance to land within range and without mishap is higher because the area the target fills is smaller). So when hunting tanks I think you're almost always better of deepstriking at 1'' distance.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
I'm a bit nervous about trying it against some dreadknights with the gatling force weapon. There'd be no feel no pain rolls, so just relying on the toughness and 3+ armor save to keep them alive. Having them all in one unit is what makes me especially nervous about it as I've lost numerous daemon princes to the same weapon but at least there the damage wasn't able to roll over to other models.
No but I saw it in action - it was very durable when deployed in ruins (3+ armour, 4+ cover, 5+ FnP). Didn't take a lot of wounds and just regained them all when IWND kicked in.
I think they ran it barebones (TL Splinter Cannon) all I can remember was 'going to shoot that unit with the Talos' *chucks a bucket of dice*
I don't believe Talos/Chronos have PfP, so you wouldn't ever gain IWND, correct?
May have been an oversight on the DE part. I don't have the codex at mo so can't confirm
Actually the Haemonoculus in the unit does have Power from the Pain, but also the Master Artisan rule which allows All Talos and Cronos to reroll FNP rolls of 1 with in 12.Which is crazy because it comes with a Cronos, so they'll get Feel No Pain of a 4+ then a Reroll.Combine this with a Corpsethief Claw of 5 Talos and yes there will not be much that can handle that.Huge unit of Talos that rerolls 1s for Feel No Pain.You get your Scout Move, then first turn move then possibly run, then you deep strike the Dark Artisan near it and you are good to go.
Killer Combo ? Spiritseer w/ Sanctic Discipline rolling for Hammer Hand and stick with Incubi. ST6 AP2 on the charge. Adds 70 points to a squad.
Or for that matter just stick the Guy in a Grotesque squad w/ a Haemonoculus, here's a crazy squad.
Hollismason wrote: Actually the Haemonoculus in the unit does have Power from the Pain, but also the Master Artisan rule which allows All Talos and Cronos to reroll FNP rolls of 1 with in 12.Which is crazy because it comes with a Cronos, so they'll get Feel No Pain of a 4+ then a Reroll.Combine this with a Corpsethief Claw of 5 Talos and yes there will not be much that can handle that.Huge unit of Talos that rerolls 1s for Feel No Pain.You get your Scout Move, then first turn move then possibly run, then you deep strike the Dark Artisan near it and you are good to go.
Killer Combo ? Spiritseer w/ Sanctic Discipline rolling for Hammer Hand and stick with Incubi. ST6 AP2 on the charge. Adds 70 points to a squad.
Or for that matter just stick the Guy in a Grotesque squad w/ a Haemonoculus, here's a crazy squad.
Take 3 Grotesques , 1 Spirit Seer w/ Raider
Take 3 Grotesques , 1 Spirit Seer w/ Raider
Take 3 Grotesques , 1 Spirit Seer w/ Raider
Take 3 Grotesques , 1 Spirit Seer w/ Raider
It's 1000 points...
Or
10 Grotesques
Karandas
I'm just saying the Combos with Eldar are not finished. Everyone auto takes the Autarch ,but there's some crazy combos w/ other things.
Oh definitely, there are some that could be great fun not all top tier, but plenty of reasons to bring some of the named HQs.
Karandas is prime for combining with some nasty units as far as i can remember hes a bit of a monster in CC, as is Mr Ra for a shooty squad, as his weapon isn't particularly anti-tank like the rest of his squad, and the fire dude who's name escapes me. They all bring a good 2+ alongside plenty of USR's. barroth? if thats his name, he gives HnRun to a unit right? that could be quite nasty with grotesques.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
I'm a bit nervous about trying it against some dreadknights with the gatling force weapon. There'd be no feel no pain rolls, so just relying on the toughness and 3+ armor save to keep them alive. Having them all in one unit is what makes me especially nervous about it as I've lost numerous daemon princes to the same weapon but at least there the damage wasn't able to roll over to other models.
I would be more lery of some sort of combat with mass forceweapon toting grey skulls
Hollismason wrote: Killer Combo ? Spiritseer w/ Sanctic Discipline rolling for Hammer Hand and stick with Incubi. ST6 AP2 on the charge. Adds 70 points to a squad...
...that still won't have grenades. Honestly, I can't even take Incubi seriously when you're paying a premium for their Initiative score which you can't use in the places where assault units are most useful.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
I'm a bit nervous about trying it against some dreadknights with the gatling force weapon. There'd be no feel no pain rolls, so just relying on the toughness and 3+ armor save to keep them alive. Having them all in one unit is what makes me especially nervous about it as I've lost numerous daemon princes to the same weapon but at least there the damage wasn't able to roll over to other models.
I don't usually see Dreadknights with the gat-silencer, but they do all show up with force weapons. Hitting on 4+ and instant killing on 2+ is a problem. Dreadknight has the speed to get the charge off, and does a ton of damage for his cost. A single dread knight isn't likely to finish off the whole unit, but two of them is a big threat.
IMO, you have to have some Ichor Injectors just for threats like these. Suddenly you're wounding on 2+ instead of threes and threatening with instant death of your own.
To be fair though, If I was tailoring for Grey Knights, I'd take a boat load of Crucibles and webways. S6 auto hit, on multiple units, and no save of any kind. Sounds good to me.
Hollismason wrote: Has anyone used the 5 Talos Formation yet? I kind of think it'd be the strongest anchor for a Beta Strike list, I can't honestly think of anything that could remove that from the board.
I'm a bit nervous about trying it against some dreadknights with the gatling force weapon. There'd be no feel no pain rolls, so just relying on the toughness and 3+ armor save to keep them alive. Having them all in one unit is what makes me especially nervous about it as I've lost numerous daemon princes to the same weapon but at least there the damage wasn't able to roll over to other models.
I don't usually see Dreadknights with the gat-silencer, but they do all show up with force weapons. Hitting on 4+ and instant killing on 2+ is a problem. Dreadknight has the speed to get the charge off, and does a ton of damage for his cost. A single dread knight isn't likely to finish off the whole unit, but two of them is a big threat.
IMO, you have to have some Ichor Injectors just for threats like these. Suddenly you're wounding on 2+ instead of threes and threatening with instant death of your own.
To be fair though, If I was tailoring for Grey Knights, I'd take a boat load of Crucibles and webways. S6 auto hit, on multiple units, and no save of any kind. Sounds good to me.
Yeah, if a dreadknight is standoffish, even with a ton of shots, needing to hit 2/3, wound 1/6, and then fail a save 1/3. One dead talos per 27 shots. The gattling psilencers have 12 shots?, so every other turn you lose a talos. The Talos can nearly down a dreadknight every other turn as well with shooting. Neither one of those is that effective.
I still think a great combo army is going to be Iyanden and The Coven Formation.
The entire army could actually be fearless. Plus with 2 to 3 Spirit Seers w/ Psychic Scream , Invisibility, Shrouding all things that greatly benefit Grotesques, Talos etc..
Then you have the fact that you have Wraith Guard with D Scythes and you have a ton of HQ to take.
Unfortunately the Coven cannot as far as I can see cannot be taken as a Ally codex.
I made this rules thread because I think RAW it actually works this way that multiple formations from the Coven book actually have their Freakish Spectacle stack.
Also, here's why I think Iyanden is the best ally with Coven.
First because of the Above, You honestly just need the Dark Artisan and a Grotesque Squad then you can drop in and Psychic Shriek everything around you at -2 Leadership.
More if you have Terrify.
The thing is for 355 to 375 points you can get a Spirit Seer and a Haemy in a squad of 3-5 Grotesques that can deep strike or just take them stock save the points by a Raider, blast on the board / deep strike etc..
This is incredibly powerful.
First off.
It's turn 3 for the Grotesques. If you are on the bottom of the Turn when your opponent does go to shoot at you. You are going to have It will not die .
The other thing is that the Iyanden Spirit Seers get access to Runes of Battle
Everything on Runes of Battle is something you'd want on a Grotesque squad.
Do not get Conceal/Reveal however you can just roll up and go pick 1 from Telepathy to gain the Primaris of Psychic Scream then roll on Battle to get smething.
1. Gain a Wound back, Grotesques are multi wounds, plus you have It will not die. Or you get the template which BTW you Deepstrike with no scatter.
2. The Malediction side of this is awesome , with the LD negative from the Coven detachment the unit is at -4. Psychic Scream will destroy a unit or you know Phantom Grenade Launchers ( except Marines, but it would actually straight up kill a Flying Daemon Prince, with the launchers).
3. Enhance + or Drain, uh Grotesques have Iniative 4 , this boosts that to a 5, and WS of 5 or do the opposite and drain WS and Ini, now that this happens before shooting then you can do this to a Marine squad then shoot at them with the Shadow Weaver.
4. Protect/ Jinx , -1 Armour save, where Grotesques do not have access to Ap weaponry excepting Scissory hands , you could also actually give them a 5+ save.
5. Quicken , Restrain,
Quicken is awesome , Deep Strike, you're not going to be shooting but also it gives a huge move bonus.
6. +1 ST. Yes.....
So yeah don't think of it as Oh My God 70 points!!! that's the cost of 2 Grotesques.
Take a Spirit Seer and join them to GROTESQUES...
amazing amount of abilities. They also make Wracks really awesome but why would you take a squad of Wracks when you can just have a bunch of mini death stars of 3 Grotesques an Aberation , Haemonoculus, and a Spirit Seer.
That's right I always forget that about them. Anyway they still get awesome things from that chart. The fact that they get a bonus from that chart and the Grotesques cause a -1 is amazing.If your playing someone and they don't have Fearless models (Riptide) and you roll up Terrify, that's boss.Then you get the fact that they can get +1 ST etc.. etc..
Spirit Seers really look like a win all around for pairing with Grotesques.
I thought I should point out, regardless of how basic it might seem, is that if you are going to use the Animus, put it on an Archon. That BS7 drastically increases the chance to hit. Yea, S4 makes it usually 50/50 but, BS7 AP2 is ok.
Of course it's best left behind in combined Eldar/DE forces. Animus gains / loses value with a higher / lower amount of DE bodies. Also, even pure DE don't benefit that much if you run lot of Beastpacks or Non-Transports (like Voidravens or Ravagers or whatever).
Armor of Misery + Shadowfield (I call it Shadowshield since I modeled my Archon with that Cronos spirit vortex as a shield) makes my Archon defensively powerful. The LD down effect doesn't really mean much to me since my meta is like 75% Marines or Daemons. I welcome input in that regard.
What would you think of Triple Talos? Ain't 360ish points a lot for 9 MEQ savez and 1 1/2 Venom's shots?
Has anyone tried the Dark Artisan formation? If so:
1) Did you make the Haemonculus the Warlord?
2) What upgrades (if any) did you purchase for each model?
3) How well did it perform in terms of durability and offensive output?
Reason I'm asking is that I'm looking to include it in an 1250 list
Haemonoculus , Sump or Night Mare Doll or Visage for -5 INI, Fleshgauntlet, WWP
Sump gives the Haemonoculus RAMPAGE, so D3 additional attacks he'll probably be outnumbered. Flesh Gauntlet, is amazing. 4+ to wound , 6s are instant death.
fartherthanfar wrote: Chronos with no upgrade seems semi useless, wouldnt giving him dome shooting be a good idea so that when you deepstrike in you do something?
He does have a Template weapon as stock, albeit is S3 Ap3. Was thinking Spirit Probe though for FnP (4+).
Yeah but it's all one unit and neither of his weapons can harm a vehicle if you want to go the Heat Lance route with the Talos, if you don't then you could just take a Stock Splinter Cannon that comes with the Talos, then the ST3 , AP 3 thing I guess.
fartherthanfar wrote: Chronos with no upgrade seems semi useless, wouldnt giving him dome shooting be a good idea so that when you deepstrike in you do something?
You want the +1 to FNP. After that, it depends on what he's doing. I ran one in a normal list (not deep striking), and let me tell you, a T7 3+ save monster with 4+ FnP is really durable.
I just parked him on my back-field objective, and was fairly confident he'd still be there turn 2 when the rest of the army started to arrive.
He's really fun on a quad-gun, and with the 4+ cover on top of the 3+/4+FnP, he'll stick around.
In double CAD, I'd take 2, one on the comms, the other manning the gun. Everything else in reserve.
If the opponent closes in on the Cronos, you can deep strike near them and you're guys are coming into the fight with 4+ FnP.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah but it's all one unit and neither of his weapons can harm a vehicle if you want to go the Heat Lance route with the Talos, if you don't then you could just take a Stock Splinter Cannon that comes with the Talos, then the ST3 , AP 3 thing I guess.
Having taken a look, as the unit will consist of a talos and cronos, your only going to be able to shoot at one target. So the first thing to decide is whether your going to using them for anti-tank; by DSing them behind some vehicles or a nice parking lot, or if your going to be using them to kill infantry. Either way, I think its important to recognise that neither of these areas are where they excel (compared with other DE units who typically excel in certain areas). What they do bring however is a big fat threat.
If you go anti-tank (although i'd advise against, as i'll explain), then talos: heat lance or haywire with no CC upgrade, Cronos: spirit probe, as the vortex is a large blast Str 3. Personally I wouldn't really go this route, as it doesn't seem efficient to try and make the unit good at shooting tanks, especially with the haemy also in there.
Anti-infantry, Talos; keep the TL splinterpod, and change up a CC weapon for the inchor injector and not the TL shooter, then the Cronos can take the vortex or probe dependant on whether you are planning on having other DE units around or whether your more likely to be killing units alone.
However, that was an analysis based on the statement that you wanted them to be shooting when you DS'ed them, as personally im looking at their WS and BS at 3, and str at 7. To me, they aren't a unit your equipping to shoot, there a unit your equipping to assault with. So Talos: TL splinter, Ichor injector. Cronos: Probe; if even that. This way your equipped for what they are meant for; getting stuck in to some nice juicy infantry that you can hold in combat a few turns. As with the cronos if you equip it to shoot you cant take the injector, so your in combat with just CC weapons instead of a nasty fleshbane, ID on 6's. Also any turns spent locked in combat is further waste as you wont be shooting. As a bonus, at Str 7, they will be fine for assaulting vehicles anyway, so equipping them to shoot these is a little pointless.
Thats how I see em being most effective anyway, as its pretty minimal on the upgrades, but doesn't try to take them and make them efficient at something another unit in your army can do while not reducing what they are already efficient at doing.
Nightmare doll on the Haemonoculus w/ the Cronos is boss. He adds one to his feel no pain roll , so it's a 3+ basically sort of. It works with the Cronos 4+ because it's not giving a modifier he just adds to the roll.
If he is your warlord he gives reroll 1s to every Talos and Cronos within 12". I can't remember if Zealot confers to other models in the squad still but he has that eventually as well.
Nightmare doll on the Haemonoculus w/ the Cronos is boss. He adds one to his feel no pain roll , so it's a 3+ basically sort of. It works with the Cronos 4+ because it's not giving a modifier he just adds to the roll.
If he is your warlord he gives reroll 1s to every Talos and Cronos within 12". I can't remember if Zealot confers to other models in the squad still but he has that eventually as well.
OOOOH good spot, I hadn't considered the wording like that. So are you using the haemy to tank the wounds at the front? currently modelling up this formation myself, but have yet to run it.
Combinding these has some interesting results. For example, in turn 4, a codex unit of Incubi joined by a supplement Haemonculus with Syrup has: Fleet, Night Vision, Feel no Pain (5+), Furious Charge, Fear, Fearless, It Will Not Die (Haemonculus only) and Zealot. Has anyone tried this kind of setup yet?
Combinding these has some interesting results. For example, in turn 4, a codex unit of Incubi joined by a supplement Haemonculus with Syrup has: Fleet, Night Vision, Feel no Pain (5+), Furious Charge, Fear, Fearless, It Will Not Die (Haemonculus only) and Zealot. Has anyone tried this kind of setup yet?
Could be useful for shooting styled lists, as the suppliment allows a nasty 2-8 HQ's I believe, so you could put a suppliment haemy in with trueborn, or with large kabalite blobs sat on objectives. Then you'd have your haemy at the front tanking the shots with his FNP and IWND, not to mention the warriors would then become fearless as the game goes on. Although not a huge fan of the idea of tanking shots, it is a possibility. But depends how much you think the unit is gona be under fire. Could be extremely useful for a dark lance unit of trueborn, as i'd imagine they'd recieve a warm welcome most games.
I know we were avoiding the allies discussion, but can we revisit the issue now that the new codex has dropped? It seems like there's some new ground to go over now.
Well Eldar is the obvious choice, but I think out of all of it, the Iyanden supplement gives the Coven supplement the biggest bonus.Why?Because of the wording of their special rule Freakish Spectacle, it stacks with other units from different detachments that have Freakish Spectacle.So throw in a few Spirit Seers for Psychic Scream and two or more formations for a total of -3 to all units around it or more.
It's completely possible with the units and detachment listed to actually have -3 or more to a LD.
Not to shabby.
Especially when you consider that Iyanden Spirit Seers are basically souped up Warlocks that can get Psychic Shriek.
Here try and beat this up when it deep strikes into your Deployment Zone
7 Grotesques
Haemonoculus from Coven w/ Sump, WWP , Flesh Gauntlet ( He can come from a Formation specifically the Grotesquirie )
Spirit Seer
3 Grotesques in a Falcon ( Yes, they can!)
Haemonoculus
Talos
Cronos ( gives +1 Feel No Pain to Grotesques near him)
Congrats on Turn 2 all that's going to show up in your deployment zone give everything around it -2 LD and then start Psychic Shrieking.
It can even get more disgusting when you consider that you can fit 4 Grotesques and 2 Spirit Seers in 1 Raider.
So you could have
7 Grotesques
Haemonoculus w/ Webway Portal, Flesh Gauntlet, Night Mare Doll or Sump
2 Spirit Seers
4 Grotesques
2 Spirit Seers
Raider
Haemonoculus w/
Talos
Cronos
Place each unit near the Cronos for +1 FNP, roll on Telepathy to get Invisibility or just take Psychic Shriek, then roll the rest on Battle , so you can give units +1 Armour Save and all the other crazy Malediction that come in Battle that add a crap load of power to your Grotesques.
All of which can land in your oppenents deployment zone and give -2 LD, more if you took a Ally of Dark Eldar an a Archon with Armour of Misery or Archangel of Pain if you just want to be a dick. So that everyone is unhappy.
If you landed in a Tyranid army or near it with the Archangel of Pain and 2 Formations of Coven you'd give everything -4 LD, then they'd all have to take a LD check at -4. It can actually get even higher as Battle gives you a chance to get a Malediction thats -3, and the guy comes with a Psychic Shriek. So yes, please take a LD check on -7 or more on 3D6 ignore Armour and Cover.
Want to see a Chaos Daemon player Cry, give him -2 LD then hit him with a Torment Grenade Launcher. What, no you don't get armour or your 2+ Jink.
Want to see Riptides lose their gak and run shrieking from the Battlefield with -4 LD checks?
That's not even counting if you take Phantom Grenade Launchers or Torment Grenade Launchers.
Oh you think that Incubi are bad ass with a Haemonoculus from the coven Detachment add a Spirit seer rolling on Battle with them.
Enjoy a Squad that can get 2+ Armour , Feel No Pain, Fearless, Furious Charge, Fear.
Iyanden Spiritseers are basically steroids for the Dark Eldar army. Every Single Spell Helps The Entire Army.
This
Haemonoculus w/ WWP , Syrup, Fleshgauntlet ( From the Coven Detachment)
7 Incubi w/ Klaivex
2 Spirit Seers
Is 400 Points.
Comes stock with Fearless, Feel No Pain 5+, Causes Fear, Gives -1 LD to Everything around it. Then you start rolling on the Runes of Battle , 2 or more times.
Want to charge someone and give them -4 to their LD against a Fear check? Runes of Battle.
Want to run D6 +3 ? Runes of Battle
Want to have a 2+ Save and Feel No Pain 5+? Runes of Battle
Want to be able to charge someone with ST6 AP2 ? Runes of Battle ( Furious charge, Klaive)
Want to give back a wound to a guy who can already get 1 back from It will not die? Runes of Battle
Currently using Scalpel Squadron as it's a cheap way to get two Venoms into my army (located here ) but I am thinking about what other formations to use in 1250, aside the Big Nasty Carnival of Pain..
I see alot of players trying GrotStar, has anyone tried using ReaverStar? Take 12 Reaver bikes, give them 4 cluster caltrops, stick 2 Farseers in there and you have a deathstar that has Hit/Run, Fearless, and likely Invis(You could decide to roll on Runes of Fate as well, as getting Doom would do wonders for HoW).
jathomas2013 wrote: I see alot of players trying GrotStar, has anyone tried using ReaverStar? Take 12 Reaver bikes, give them 4 cluster caltrops, stick 2 Farseers in there and you have a deathstar that has Hit/Run, Fearless, and likely Invis(You could decide to roll on Runes of Fate as well, as getting Doom would do wonders for HoW).
Has anyone playtested that yet?
What I'm running now. Charged a unit of T-wolf Calvary, next turn got charged by a second Calvary unit. Neutered the first, survived the second with 1-2 left. HnR out to let the rest of the army mop up from there and go around nabbing objectives.
It's not rol- your-face-on-the-board-easy like SeerStar was, but I'd say point for point it's actually better. Where SeerStar's claim to fame was being impossible to kill and good in HtH, these guys come with decent survivability stock and a lot more offensive power. Being as you're still keeping the bulk of the defensive powers with your farseers, it's a fantastic unit.
It'd be easy to kite around if your opponent has any manuverability at all. With nothing but templates for ranged dmg you could have a huge chunk of points just running around chasing it's tail all game.
Yeah they're no very mobile at all but they could claim center board for sure.
You could just go full crazy and take a Dark Artisan formation and drop that in their back field. Then your kind of in between two units that you don't want to be anywhere near.
The good thing about them is they basically make a 6 inch to 12 inch or more threat range.
Plus the whole, I'm just going to multi charge you, I won't get Rampage this turn, but I will if you outnumber me next.
The main problem I encounter with reavers in my local club is drop-podding sternguards - they just annihilate reavers, denying both their armour and jink on first turn. Same with deepstriking flamers. They are just too fragile to be deathstar, even with seers because every TAC list will chew them if they try to be deathstar.
Yeah it's hard thing to defend against which is why I say bunker up with a bunker or take a Talos and Cronos, hard to kill beasties with a 4+ invulnerable.
Or take the Dark Artisan, Corspetheif Claw, and Scalpel formations and just be like " What's up Come at me Bruh"
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's hard thing to defend against which is why I say bunker up with a bunker or take a Talos and Cronos, hard to kill beasties with a 4+ invulnerable.
Or take the Dark Artisan, Corspetheif Claw, and Scalpel formations and just be like " What's up Come at me Bruh"
Actually, it's GK. Tons of force weapons to ID our monsters, plenty of dakka to thin the troops, and S6 soul blazing flamers to toast our transports.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's hard thing to defend against which is why I say bunker up with a bunker or take a Talos and Cronos, hard to kill beasties with a 4+ invulnerable.
Or take the Dark Artisan, Corspetheif Claw, and Scalpel formations and just be like " What's up Come at me Bruh"
Actually, it's GK. Tons of force weapons to ID our monsters, plenty of dakka to thin the troops, and S6 soul blazing flamers to toast our transports.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's hard thing to defend against which is why I say bunker up with a bunker or take a Talos and Cronos, hard to kill beasties with a 4+ invulnerable.
Or take the Dark Artisan, Corspetheif Claw, and Scalpel formations and just be like " What's up Come at me Bruh"
Actually, it's GK. Tons of force weapons to ID our monsters, plenty of dakka to thin the troops, and S6 soul blazing flamers to toast our transports.
Vexler wrote: The main problem I encounter with reavers in my local club is drop-podding sternguards - they just annihilate reavers, denying both their armour and jink on first turn. Same with deepstriking flamers. They are just too fragile to be deathstar, even with seers because every TAC list will chew them if they try to be deathstar.
Disagree strongly, though all the weaknesses you mentioned are valid. Drop pod marines are tough no matter who you are, but winning those fights is about how you fight not what your comp is. I play regularly against Calgar-pod, and if you play to the mission it's a very doable. Farseers cover the reavers weak defense well (mostly invisibility, but fortune/forewarning help a ton too). The rest is just being savvy about what you deploy and where.
Against drop pods you need to reserve the contents of your transports and walk them on leaving enough on to absorb the initial hit. Or like others mentioned you need to have something durable like a cronos or grots. I actually really like the scalpel squadron for this reason. You can go full reserve and not lose automatically.
in 7th there are starting to be a lot of builds for the codexes that are 7th, that are good builds. This makes it hard to build a TAC list sometimes.
regardless of the above thoughts..
against drop pods the best you can do is keep your best stuff off table at the start, so they have to pick from your mediocre to bad units, and try to counter their drop pod assault.
The talos/cronos/haem formation is good for this, as are mandrakes in min units. One because its tough to kill, the other because it has to be countered by models that ignore cover to remove it effectively and its so cheap to put a 3 model unit out.
Other things that make this viable are squads of 1 lhamean per archon. Its 10pts, its not going to do much but under circumstance you force your opponent to direct fire at it to remove it, ie to table you, or remove a unit from an objective. and 10pts against many armies that use 200+ point units as their main forces is good even if it just eats 1 turn of shooting to die.
basically just things you can put on the table that cost close to nothing, or are not easy to remove, so your opponent cannot table you then your beta strike killers come in and counter their drop pods.
Unit spam coupled with reserving your best units is probably the best strategy. I played drop Salamanders for years, and still think that's the best strategy against pods.
I think the Scalpel Squadrons good, I tried it out a bit, and it is really good for pulling ahead early on VPs, especially with Maelstrom as it's possible to claim two Objectives with them and get First Blood for D3.
The two times I used them I pulled ahead 2 to 3 points in the very first turn which I think is a great.
Hollismason wrote: I think the Scalpel Squadrons good, I tried it out a bit, and it is really good for pulling ahead early on VPs, especially with Maelstrom as it's possible to claim two Objectives with them and get First Blood for D3.
The two times I used them I pulled ahead 2 to 3 points in the very first turn which I think is a great.
Yeah I'm stating to like Scalpel Squadron a bit more after testing it. I run mine with a Liquifier and Acothyst w/ Liquifier, DS Templates for First Blood are always nice (and my Venoms can never seem to finish the job off).
How does everyone run their Talos? Thinking of including a Dark Artisan and was wondering what the ideal load out would be (Spirit Probe on Cronos, Scissorhands, Nightmare Doll + Syndriqs Stump with Haemonculus)
I used to run Splinter Cannon, extra CC weapon, and chain flails, but since the switch I'm debating between the flails or the ichor injector. Ranged weapon is still all cannon all the time.
I think the Nightmare doll Or Sump is the best way to go with the Dark Artisan formation, it gives him 3+ Feel No Pain and auto ignores a Instant Death attack, plus he comes stock with Feel No Pain so even if he does lose it to the ID, he still keeps a 4+ Feel No Pain.
Especially if you make him your Warlord so you can get Rerolls on your Feel No Pains.
Sump gives you 2 abilities that he's probably going to have anyway, It Will Not Die , and Poisoned 4+. The big thing everyone wants for Sump is Rampage which is totally worth it for 10 points.
The Haemonoculus stuff is actually pretty good.
edit:
Oh this is just balls crazy awesome assault unit that I tried out against just a straight up let's throw our HQs against each other.
Holy gak is this deadly. Everyones a turn higher, has fearless, feel no pain, -1LD to peeps, You got 3 models that all have Rampage. On Turn 3+ it's got Furious Charge.
It's relatively cheap unit as well coming in at less than 400 with a transport.
It works because the Cronos improves it to a 4+ , but the Nightmare doll doesn't improve it to a 3+ it just adds to your actual roll you make.
Cronos says "The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar Faction and the Feel No Pain special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their Feel No Pain (e.g. Feel No Pain would become Feel No Pain (4+). This is cumulative with any other modifiers to Feel No Pain, but cannot improve their Feel No Pain beyond 4+"
Nightmare doll says "The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes. "
The Haemonoculus doesn't actually have a 3+ feel no pain, he has a 4+ , but if he rolls a 3, he adds one.
It's actually worded exactly how it would need to be worded to work with a Cronos , which is why it's as I see it RAW and RAI.
The other one that is crazy good thing I think people are missing is you can have mulitple Diabolical playthings, there is no restriction that I can find.
The coven codex says
" but can instead select Diabolical Playthings, presented opposite, at the points costs shown"
Diabolical Playthings have no restriction as far as I can see, so you could have
Dark Artisan
Haemonoculus w/
Panacea Perverted, Night Mare Doll, Vexator Mask, Syndriqs Pump, Flesh Gauntlet (160?)
4+(3+) Feel No Pain, 4+ It will not Die, 3+ Armor Save, and basically makes the unit immune from poison shots. In combat he'd have 4+ to wound poison , D3 additional attacks due to Rampage.
It comes down to what is considered a modifier. +1 to the roll or saying it passes on a 3+ rather then a 4+ is really the same thing. Other debates like this have sprung up though I can't think of one right now (lazy off post birthday sugar).
It's worth taking some of these things over to YMDA to be sure.
If you pass the roll when the die shows a 3, it's kind of hard to argue that the threshold isn't 3+. You might have some traction in a contextless argument, but unless your group also lets passengers in a wrecked Land Raider assault in their opponent's assault phase, I don't think anyone with knowledge of the DE rules would let it fly.
What do people think about Liquifier Guns on Talos?
Well the other argument for that is that the Spirit Probe isn't actually improving his save beyond a 4+, the Nightmare Doll is. So there are really two arguments for it. Adding one and giving +1 are two different thinks it may look on the surface semantically the same but it's actually not. One only happens when you roll, one is just a effect that is always on.
I mean the wording of Spirit Probe itself is pretty clear and meant to specifically prevent multiple Spirit probes from going crazy town.
I am not arguing, just suggesting opening a thread in YMDA.
Re-liquifiers, personally I don't like them. They make the unit go up in points rapidly at 15pts per and they work against you with assault. By that I mean they make an easy charge difficult when they work well. Especially when paired with the TLSC.
Hollismason wrote: The Dark Artisan formation is super good basically. Although I think the Perverted Panacea and the Sydriqs are the best combos, 4+ FNP, 4+ IWND.
Especially when you take into consideration a 3+, whatever cover you can get, LOS, majority T7 and re-rolls of 1's for MC.
Only things I can think off that will take it out in one go are probably Dimachaeron and Dreadknight(?). Dimachaeron would have to make Ld check outside Synapse however
Has 6 attacks base (including 2 weapons), has rampage, Weapon Skill 8 so hits on threes and has the ID special rule on 4+. If it makes the charge, it's got AG standard, so is S7 on the charge.
Best MC for nids to kill over Mc's with ...but then again, Splinter Fire should take it out relatively easy
Can you issue a Challenge to it, if so Vexators mask. Also, hilariously a single character should never charge the Dark Artisan formation and accept a challenge, because then it'd be a single character versus a independent character and the Haemonoculus would get its rerolls, while I assume the Talos and Cronos cheer him on.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I'm noticing everyone is taking wyches in units of 7 or 8, 50/50 with hekatrix but no upgrades on her. I'm not quite sure I follow the reasoning here.
If you plan on running an ID with them then yeah drop them to 9 to make space on the raider but as a standalone squad wouldn't it be best to run them as 10 so you get the three wych weapons? At 5 points a piece I think that's a bargain. Hekatrix I can understand running naked just for the extra attacks and LD but if you got some points to spare wouldn't a power sword be ok too? I know strength 3 sucks but ap3 is still decent (agonizer on a hekatrix seems over costed but on a syren it might be decent), especially since I see wyches being most useful in causing wounds then clearing house with a sweeping advance.
Also I see a lot of people running two raiders with wyches then one venom with wyches, is there a reason for this? A specific strategy or something?
I didn't see a response to the question about the 7 or 8 models. In previous codexes, and most likely in this edition as well, you're trying to strike a balance with wyches to try and win combat in your opponents' turn. Wyches 'need' to be locked in combat to survive during your opponents' shooting phase. They just have much better saves in close combat than out. 7 or 8 models tends to be around the sweet spot for killy, but not too killy so you can attempt to win combat in your assault phase, get locked in combat through your opponents' shooting phase, and then hopefully wipe the opponent during your their assault phase. It will leave you free to move etc. during your following turn.
The number used to be about 6 models in older dexes, but we used to suffer fewer casualties during exploding raiders and there was no overwatch, so squad size has gone up on this magical number.
Can you really calculate so precisely the number of models you need to win a combat but not wipe the enemy out in one round? Seems like there'd be too many possible enemies to make a unit that hits that sweet spot routinely.
The Talos Formation for Corpsethief has a insanely possible 32 x 16 inch threat box basically, which is amazing. The models are very wide, it's basically like having 5 little bit bigger Dreadnought bases in a straight line across comes out to 20 inches wide horizontally. It can pretty much deny movement to the center of the board by itself. I don't know many things that would want to charge a 5 man Talos unit, sure it can be killed but seriously the threat range is so impressive that it can just effectively stay center board and threaten just anything.
This was my final version of the " please try and kill this" Dark Artisan
The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.
The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.
Wow so glad I saw this lol. I will be running this next game with some Grots.
SisterSydney wrote: Can you really calculate so precisely the number of models you need to win a combat but not wipe the enemy out in one round? Seems like there'd be too many possible enemies to make a unit that hits that sweet spot routinely.
Nope. Just trial and error and knowing what you stand a better chance of winning against. If you're assaulting terminators... all of that goes out the window, but you'll know that you can possibly tie them up for a couple of turns.
The principle of it, trying to win in your opponents round is the more important aspect. All of it comes down to gauging what you'll be better off assaulting. It's going to happen, where you don't have any good options to assault and have to settle for something that isn't optimal during your game.
7 or 8 models though is still an 'effective' size, without being too small, that it still allows you to make an impact and shave a few points that you can spend elsewhere, lending the MSU mentality more
Hollismason wrote: The Talos Formation for Corpsethief has a insanely possible 32 x 16 inch threat box basically, which is amazing. The models are very wide, it's basically like having 5 little bit bigger Dreadnought bases in a straight line across comes out to 20 inches wide horizontally. It can pretty much deny movement to the center of the board by itself. I don't know many things that would want to charge a 5 man Talos unit, sure it can be killed but seriously the threat range is so impressive that it can just effectively stay center board and threaten just anything.
This was my final version of the " please try and kill this" Dark Artisan
The Haemonoculus has a 3+ FNP, 4+ IWD, 3+ Armour save from shooting. -5 initiative to opponents in Challenges. 4+ to wound and Instant Death on 6s and if charged by a greater number Rampage.
Its arguably one of the best formations for Dark Eldar period.
He's not that expensive if you don't go with the Webway portal. I mean he has a T7 average against shooting, 3+ armour save, 4+ IWND, 3+ FNP I mean yeah he's expensive if you go the full on crazy route, but if you just give him a flesh gauntlet, Syndriqs, Panacea, and Nightmare, webway
He comes in at 185. Without the webway 150. Why you would not want to webway I dunno , maybe you want a unit that says GO AWAY in your Deployment zone behind a Aegis with a quad gun or a comm relay, and you plan on beta striking. Very little is going to wipe this unit off the board turn 1. Plus no one is going to want to come near it.
I just look at it this way the whole unit, Dark Artisan formation, is it worth it? Hell yes it's worth it especially if he's your warlord.
The Talos and Cronos both reroll 1s on FNP and have a 4+ FNP and he causes FEAR at -1 LD check more if another formation is near him because the Formation LD stuff stacks.
For that price? Around 450? For a Deep Striking unit of Monstrous creatures that no one wants to assault that on turn 4 gets ZEALOT. Yes, he is totally worth it.
Everyone forgets I think that that formation get's ZEALOT, in fact if you were lucky and got a Animus off, turn 3 when he's charging after DSing he's got Zealot.
That unit is insane if he charges with Zealot, 5 ST7 AP2s, 4 ST5 AP2 ( or ST10 for SMASH which is a good choice) and that's just the Talos and Cronos. It'll also beat the crap (maybe) out of a Imperial Knight. You get to go before them because their Initiative 5 and you have a higher WS. You'll definitely get 1 ST10 from the Cronos, then the Talos attacks.
What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?
Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.
Scissorhand upgrade for the Abberation. That's the only thing I could think of. A dreadnought / Maulerfiend/ Walker will crush / tarpit a grotesque squad.
Ossefactors all the way.
Torment Grenade Launchers are actually decent especially running multiple formations or having a regular D. Eldar unit. It doesn't affect things that are fearless etc.. but there are a lot of units that it does affect and with multiple formations or detachments you can give some hefty -LD.
I'm currently thinking about Ossefactors for Scalpel Formation Wracks, just to get a bit more ranged firepower for the hopeful First Blood. Liquefiers just seem a bit too weak at S3 now to be worth it, especially when you have to pay the sergeant tax. Furthermore, you don't even need the Ld upgrade for the Acothyst if you're playing Coven, as you're Fearless by T2, and you're hopefully in transports of some kind. The Ossefactor is at least a 24" AP2 Fleshbane gun. It's at least double-range plasma pistol (against everything but vehicles) without gets hot for the same points. Then again, Plasma Pistols are hilariously overpriced, so who knows.
The only times I can think of where running an Acothyst would be good would be if you really want 2x Liquifier in a 5 man, or Ossefactor/Hexrifle potshot squad, or maybe a venom blade or Scissorhand guy in a Raider squad. The issue is that the Acothyst is a 20pt model base that has only marginally more survivability than an Ork Boy, and can't get the same number of expendable cheap wounds around him like a PK Nob can.
For Grots, a sergeant tax for an extra attack and challenge protection for embedded characters isn't too bad, though I'd skip giving him a different weapon as the free Flesh Gauntlet is good enough imo.
Jimsolo wrote: What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?
Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.
I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.
Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.
Jimsolo wrote: What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?
Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.
I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.
Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.
Jimsolo wrote: What do people think about the Coven upgrades? Acothyst or Aberrations yes or no? What upgrades TO them, if any? Liquifier guns and/or ossefactors?
Personally, I think I'll leave my Grots alone, maybe give an Aberration to a squad escorting Rakarth if he needs to be rescued from a challenge. Probably ossefactors for the Wracks. Debating the Acothyst question though.
I run an Acothyst in my Scalpel Squadron formations for two Liquifier Guns. I prefer them to the Ossefactor/Hex Rifle, since you can plop them down near a unit in cover and murder them, using the Venom to finish them off if need be for D3 First Blood.
Aberrations aren't really needed, Fearless turn 2 and you already have a Flesh Gauntlet.
So you just risk the mishap, then?
Yeah pretty much, my DS rolls are great if you scatter off, you can disembark after DSing to get close enough to fire the Templates
Scissorhand has rending not shred with ST 5 base and D3 possible additional attacks, I feel it's a good weapon for the Abberations with it's ST5. It also gives at least something to have when facing Armoured opponents. The Abbberation I believe still keeps the Flesh Gauntlet , so with 2 CC weapons and the Charge just minimum he's swinging with 6 attacks on the charge. That's not to shabby, especially if you take the Grotesquirie and get something crazy good like +1 ST or +1T or RAGE.
I mean yes, you need 6s but any 6s are Glances on AV12.
Grotesques have ST5 so T4 or less they reroll to wound with poisoned weapons which I think people forget.
Here's the majority toughness rule for CC :
Multiple Toughness Values
Quite rarely, a unit will contain models that have different Toughness characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound using the Toughness value of the majority of the engaged foe. If two or more Toughness values are tied for majority, use the highest of those tied values.
This does not apply to Challenges. However if your Haemonoculus goes up against a armoured foe , fails to kill him, you can GLORIOUS INTERVENTION! with the Talos and beat on the guy who challenged.
Dark Artisan is freaking crazy good. Also, the Nightmare doll set up ignores the first Instant Death automatically.
No it does not however, the Talos and Cronos could Glorious Intervention in subsequent turns.
Also this is funny but a unit of Grotesques from the Grotesquirie w/ 5 models and rolling rage get's 6 attacks base on a charge, so 31 attacks plus Rampage.
The formation that I think everyone seems to overlook is the Scarlet Epicureans, it costs a Haemonoculus and Cronos base then 2 Wrack squads, but what makes it great isthe fact they treat the turn 1 higher and it stacks so if you are beta striking and coming in on Turn 2, when they do charge if they have Haemonoculus or are near Urien , they have Zealot as they treat turn 3 as turn 5 which it's hard to argue with 2 squads with Zealot.
That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.
Vexler wrote: That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.
anyway! haemi's dont fight! they are puppeteers! pulling the strings as the dance of flesh and steel plays out delighting in every squeal and devouring the very essence of hope.
Good catch, yeah been playing that wrong for a while now whoops.
Here's a formation I think people need to look at more.
Scarlet Epicureans
1 Cronos
1 Haemonoculus
2 Units of Wracks
All wracks have Precision Strike within 12 of Haemy, All Wracks treat the turn 1 turn higher, stacks. At first your like " Precision strikes BOOO. This is actually huge!
Especially with a Turn 3 charge with Zealot, as you get to allocate where the wounds go when you hit with precision strikes, you can brutalize special characters in the squad.
Next off the Wracks can take Raiders.
Now before Wracks may have not been seen as that useful or considered " Lesser"
This formation though. With a Haemy or Urien!
Coming on in Turn 2 via Aero Sails or just turn 1 it which ever they are turn 3 on Turn 1 with a Haemy or Urien.
That's huge, Fear , Fearless, IWND not that great ; it's turn 3 where they become O_O.
They get Zealot starting Turn 3, if you are dropping in with Turn 2, getting a charge off in turn 3, your charging with Zealot.
That's huge.
Especially when you realize these guys can get venoms if they wish.
So you could have a 9 Man w/ Haemy, Venom w/ Back up, but what to do with that Cronos?
He's perfect for putting in the backfield behind a Aegis or a Fortification.
Anyway I think it's a excellent formation that people are over looking.
Jimsolo wrote: Honestly, I love all the formations. I'd love to field as many as possible, then use Telepathy Farseers to capitalize on the Ld penalties.
or an Iyanden spiritseer council. It's the inspiration for next years build.
mercury14 wrote: Can Hekatrixes and Syrens be the Wyches that take Wych weapons?
I was wondering that myself, and was leaning towards no, because now they are 'Hekatrix and Syrens', and use a different stat line than wyches. However, I've seen it played that you equip the 'wych' with the special weapon, and then upgrade it. So....yeah....no idea.
Vexler wrote: That's right, they cannot intervene, but still, it's not like formation won't work if haemy refuses challenge - most damage will come from talos in CC and cronos in shooting.
anyway! haemi's dont fight! they are puppeteers! pulling the strings as the dance of flesh and steel plays out delighting in every squeal and devouring the very essence of hope.
I've just finished reading this whole thing and was in the middle of building my list from the new codex and it's been quite interesting seeing all the different ideas and methods people have. I personally love the covenant models so have been making a coven list but also loving the fast models so it's been a little tricky but think I've got something.
What I would like to know is I'm aware that all units can be run effectively (even wyches) if backed up properly such and having a few squads of them but is it possible to run a lot of a little?
What I mean is I'm trying to run a raider full of wyches a raider full of kabalite and a couple of venoms worth of wracks for scalpel formation. But I'm worried cos I only have one or two squads of each there won't be a lot of synergy. Has anyone run a large variety of units with small numbers with much success?
I think DE have a very well balanced (internally) codex. With the exception of Hellions, I think all the units are viable these days.
As far as unit variation, I LOVE lists like that, it helps to have some flexibility, and it gives options for unit X to pick up where unit Y falls off. :
I agree that the internal balance seems to be pretty good with the new DE. Right when the codex came out, it seems like Wyches and Hellions were nigh unplayable, but I've seen a decent amount of batreps wherein Wyches actually did okay. Not great, but the new Power From Pain does help them be more effective at tarpitting and tying things up. Hellions, however, still look to be night unplayable.
I tried running two 10x wych squads with Hekatrix (one with agonizer), 3x Hydra Gauntlets, 3x Razorflails in a list in a local tournament the other day and finished 1-1-1.. My loss and my draw were against the teams that took 1st and 2nd and my loss was 8-6. The wyches did great.
Game one vs Ravenguard with Pod-Wolf allies:
The Wyches tarpitted a Ravenguard bike squad with chapter master for a few turns while the rest of my army was free to beat him up without his strongest unit. Three wyches eventually broke out of combat and regrouped, surviving for the rest of the game
The other Wych squad ended up disembarking to take an objective secured maelstrom card while its raider took a second and basically ran around all game doing that. The game ended with me winning 8-3.
Game Two vs Ravenguard with Blood Angel allies:
Both squads of Wyches pounced on dismounted 10-man tac squads in Rhinos that he infiltrated somehow, massacring them horribly with their +1 attack drugs (aka Bloodbride pills). After that they both reached bike squads which were trying to avoid the Wyches in order to reach the shooty units in my army and cut them down too with some Reaver help. Both Wych squads were eventually wiped after more Bikes arrived but even then it took a couple turns. The game ended in a 5-5 tie.
Game 3 vs Tyranids (flyrants, big bugs, everything shrouded), modified relic mission:
I was screwed this game because none of my shooting could ignore cover and with ruins he had easy access to 2+ cover, and some of his things flew. I took out one Malanthrope turn 1 due to my whole shooting phase focusing on it, but he brought two.
So anyway, giant Tyrannids in my face on turn one. Each Wych squad took a grounded flyrant and did GREAT (again with the +1 attack drugs). One of them managed to kill one immediately that had a couple wounds on it and failed his armor save - also the Hekatrix put two wounds on it herself. The other squad only put 1W on the Tyrant and lost (getting feared), but kept making morale saves. Eventually they broke, regrouped, and assaulted the same Tyrant again the following turn. That squad actually survived the game with 2 Wyches left.
Things were rough though for me luck-wise, as my Archon with WWP and trueborn didn't come in until turn 3 and my Reavers didn't come in until turn 4. The Reavers managed to snatch the relic the turn they came in though but died in assault to a bunch of stuff. And the mission was a modified relic mission where you could take the relic in any phase, including consolidating so he consolidated onto the relic as time expired at the bottom of turn 4. Had we been playing a regular relic mission I'd have won with first blood, linebreaker, Warlord (wyches killed his Warlord).
Overall I was pleased with the Wyches in my army. I was hesitant because large squads get your army away from MSU somewhat and there's the vehicle explosion thing. But their Raiders never exploded and were not shot at much in favor of other targets. Nobody wants to focus on a Raiders jinking on a 3+ carrying just some 10 point models in them.
Oh and also my Wyches made ONE FnP check the whole tournament. One. Even though they were around in some cases in turn 5, they only made one..... Even in game one when they had T4 drugs and weren't being denied their FnP much at all, they still couldn't make a roll. :(
Great job! I"m really impressed that you were able to get so much mileage out of your Wyches. I think they should've given you a few extra VPs just for showing that what is thought of as a sub-par unit, Wyches, can be semi-decent when used intelligently.
Hollismason wrote: The only problem with Helions is that Reavers do their job better.
I agree that Reavers are quite good. The only difference I have is that I don't even know what job Hellions are supposed to do other than die quickly and waste points.
Hollismason wrote: The only problem with Helions is that Reavers do their job better.
I agree that Reavers are quite good. The only difference I have is that I don't even know what job Hellions are supposed to do other than die quickly and waste points.
Last edition they were pretty good at tar pitting an enemy and then skipping away once you had a shooting unit free. They also did lovely work as a B-list anti-vehicle unit. This edition? Not so much.
Hellions can deep strike a good amount of Assault 2 poison which is something Reavers can't do. That's just not that good though when we can deep strike Raiders full of TL Kabalites now. And the sad thing is that Hellions lost their +1 attack for their glaive for really no reason at all.
If Hellions were 10 points I'd say they would be adequate but at 13 pts they're just poor. That being said I painted up ten of them so I'll use them from time to time in my 6 FA lists just for fun.
Beastmasters are 10 points, why not just take squads of five of them and shoot stuff instead of Hellions?
mercury14 wrote: Hellions can deep strike a good amount of Assault 2 poison which is something Reavers can't do. That's just not that good though when we can deep strike Raiders full of TL Kabalites now. And the sad thing is that Hellions lost their +1 attack for their glaive for really no reason at all.
If Hellions were 10 points I'd say they would be adequate but at 13 pts they're just poor. That being said I painted up ten of them so I'll use them from time to time in my 6 FA lists just for fun.
I had enough to run a small force of Baron Sathonyx themed dudes, so I have a LOT of worthless minis right now. I keep hoping they'll give us a dataslate character (or two) to replace the ones they took.
while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.
I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions. the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too
fartherthanfar wrote: while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.
I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too
Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.
fartherthanfar wrote: while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.
I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too
Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.
I love the new beastpacks. Khymera going from 4++ to 5++ but getting T4 is a lateral move but they're now -2 points. The fiend costs less and gets *six* S5 attacks on the charge. Beastmasters for 10 points is a bargain.
Wracks out of the codex are mediocre but in the Coven book with the -1 Ld bubble and things like the Scalpel Squadron and better PfP chart, they're excellent.
fartherthanfar wrote: while I agree that hellion arent great they aren`t completely horrible. they are very cheap for jump pack units which shoot decently, can fight in close combat semi-decently and have a bunch of extra rules for fun antics.
I will agree they are probably the worst unit in the codex (besides wracks maybe) but this is actually a good point showing that the dark eldars have a nice internal balance in their codex since most other codexs will have a few units which are clearly worst then hellions.
the old codex was well balanced, the new one is too
Yes, I agree that the internal balance is really good, with only Hellions being the only glaringly obvious terrible unit. As mentioned above Wyches can be quite useful if used correctly. Personally, I don't really "get" Wracks but a lot of people seem to find them useful...for something. The only other unit that I would say is borderline not good are the new Beast Packs. But that's just personal preference. Some people seem to like them now as MSU done to its extreme in order to draw fire and make the opponent overkill a single model unit or ignore it.
I love the new beastpacks. Khymera going from 4++ to 5++ but getting T4 is a lateral move but they're now -2 points. The fiend costs less and gets *six* S5 attacks on the charge. Beastmasters for 10 points is a bargain.
Wracks out of the codex are mediocre but in the Coven book with the -1 Ld bubble and things like the Scalpel Squadron and better PfP chart, they're excellent.
How do you run the new beastpacks? Squads of 12 Khymera? Or do you mix up the Clawed Fiends and Khymera? Have you had much success with them in your games so far?
I haven't done much with beastpacks so far this codex. I've dabbled a bit though. Here are my thoughts.
1) Solo Space Apes. One Fiend running around getting lost in a MSU list. It shows up and monkey-punches stuff Wyches/etc assault. I've run two one-Ape units like this and they do well, you just don't want them on the losing side of combat because of their morale.
2) Ape plus Beastmaster. Same as above but with average morale.
3) Solo Khymera using one or two formations with 6 FA in MSU list. Spam out 1-Khymera units and if anything targets them they're going to badly overkill it and waste a lot of shooting. Then they take objectives (esp in maelstrom), reinforce assaults, draw overwatch fire, etc.
4) 2x Khymera plus Beastmaster. Better now with T4 and hits reasonably hard.
5) Menagerie with Fiend, Khymera, and Beastmaster. That's T5, T4, T3, so it's T5, and it gets 13 attacks on the charge. I might give the Beastmaster a weapon upgrade here because the S5, rending, and AP3 would make this little unit pretty darn punchy.
6) Monkeybird (?). 2 Fiends, Flock. Beastmaster. Keeps them T5 and that's a whole lot of meaty wounds.
Actually looking at it I think you could possibly build a almost "auto-win" army or at least one that is heavily weighed in your favour by taking the Victory Point heavy selections.
Corpsethief Claw (VPs for units destroyed in CC)
Scalpel Squadron (goes great with Corspe thief)
Goe's really great as the Corpsethief is a strong enough unit to just leave on the board on the first turn and not worry about it getting wiped out.
Plus the Scalpel Squadron can come in and additionally target a unit the Talos unit has worked on.
I mean the two units by themselves is around 850, but give a huge amount of victory points possibly.
The thing that's great about the Scalpel Squadron is that first turn you deep strike , disembark kill a unit possibly gain D3 VP, then go and claim a objective for Maelstorm if you got it or the Dark Eldar specific cards.
If you're not taking any sort of reserve manipulation, is reserving a good portion of your army a good idea? I ask because I'm on the fence about whether to reserve some of my more fragile units like Scourges and Venoms if I'm facing Drop Pods. On the one hand, the Drop Pods won't be able to kill them. On the other hand, I risk my army not showing up together which allows my opponent the opportunity to focus everything on the few units on the table.
I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.
You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.
Thor665 wrote: I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.
You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.
Drazhar is pretty bad, but I think I'd rather have him over Hellions. (And wyches over both.)
Any chance on you doing a tactica guide for 7th edition, Thor? Your 5th Ed one really helped me when I started the army.
Thor665 wrote: I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.
You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.
Just chiming in to echo your sentiments. I think people get stuck in the pattern of thinking of them in the circumstances where they perform well -- running with a 4+ invuln and at least 5+ FNP, tarpitting units and keeping threats from targeting your army. It's tempting to look at potential like that and forget that they're still T3 6+ models where the shooting and overwatch phases are concerned.
If I absolutely had to run Wyches, I'd pair them with a Covens Supplement Haemonculus with a Syndriq's Pump. Better to save the cost of a Hekatrix and give the Agonizer to a model with a profile that justifies the expense. As a bonus, the squad will have 5+ FNP and Fearless by the start of the second turn. This still isn't good -- and any raider filled with a squad that expensive is sure to be a priority target -- but at least it's capable of doing its job.
P.S.: Have the wych enthusiasts considered Sslyths yet? They're surprisingly durable and can fill many of the same roles. Give them a try and I don't think you'll be disappointed.
For my money, the ability to gain Objective Secured (which Hellions cannot do) is the deciding factor in the great game of 'Who Sucks More?', ending in slight favor of the wyches, who also have better equipment, as well as the possibility of bringing in a slot less Venom, which is always nice.
I don't screw around with them myself. To my mind, Reavers are the only cult unit worth a damn this edition. I know lots of folks are happy with the new wyches, but I prefer to put more warriors in my troop slots and leave CC to my elites/heavies.
Thor665 wrote: I'm actually amazed that people think Wyches are better than Hellions right now. I mean...don't get me wrong, Hellions are utter dreck, but Wyches? They're dreck too, and I would dare say reasonably clearly worse dreck.
You're also citing Hellions as the worst thing in the dex with ol' Draz standing right there trying to pretend like he's relevant. I'd field a like number of Wyches or Hellions for his points and consider myself better off in the long run every time against any type of foe.
In almost every game I play, Wyches are effective and fun. 4++ in CC, combat drugs, lightning-quick initiative, objective secured, Fell-no-Pain all for just 10 points? That sounds pretty good to me. They're also have a rather wide array of suitable targets from Termis, to MEQ, GEQ, and most monstrous creatures really hate 'em. When I assault my Wyches into a Hive Tyrant that's a win for me because he's likely to be tied up for a while unless he gets rescued. And Wyches will sprinkle occasional wounds on them (hydra gauntlets help). A lot of times in my lists I'll run Wych units to grab a couple enemy units in CC while multiple Reaver units subsequently charge in with bladevanes, then hit n' run out, assaulting in again the following turn. I also run disintegrators on their Raiders or put them in Venoms to soften up whatever they're hitting
A lot of what they can do depends on drugs, and I feel that people don't properly take them into account then evaluating Wyches. I've had matches where they're charging with S5 later in the game and just wrecking all kinds of face, taking down things SM bikers. In a tournament last month I had a squad of seven - yes SEVEN Wyches (with +1a drugs) solo a full-health Hive Tyrant. How did they do it? Splinter pistols took off one wound, the Tyrant challenged the Hekatrix which accepted, no Wyches died, and the thing ate two Agonizer wounds and failed two saves. 4-attack Hydra Gauntlet Wyches FTW. And that wasn't even with furious charge.
For 10 points.
And their Raider had its disintigrator blown off, had that been available it would have been probably even easier.
The problem I have with hellions is that they are competing for a slot with reavers and scourges and quite frankly that is an easy choice to make. Wyches, well its them or warriors so why not throw a couple of tarpits in to wait for my heavy hitters to make their way to them?
Jimsolo wrote: Drazhar is pretty bad, but I think I'd rather have him over Hellions. (And wyches over both.)
But taking Draz obligates you to Incubi or running him solo - neither of which is that good. I think you're overlooking his multiple levels of fail.
Jimsolo wrote: Any chance on you doing a tactica guide for 7th edition, Thor? Your 5th Ed one really helped me when I started the army.
I am actually considering it - there have been enough changes to warrant it paired with the wild and crazy edition/dex fluctuation finally slowing down where one could actually make some valid statements again. (there was a period of time there from basically Escalation through to Knights where the meta was just a rollercoaster of insanity and nothing was sure )
I have shared some thoughts on the podcast I'm part of now - maybe just organizing them for that is what's making me think I could type them up again
Jimsolo wrote: For my money, the ability to gain Objective Secured (which Hellions cannot do) is the deciding factor in the great game of 'Who Sucks More?', ending in slight favor of the wyches, who also have better equipment, as well as the possibility of bringing in a slot less Venom, which is always nice.
Ah-ah - you can't count the Venom and Objec.Sec as a benefit of the Wyches without justifying why you wouldn't take Warriors over Wyches.
I would actually say it is quite obvious that Hellions are better equipped - their base weapon is better for both assault and shooting - they only lose out on the grenades. So it's grenades vs. better assault and better shooting.
I will also add - the Succubus is also a good Cult unit. It's not just Reavers in my opinion.
mercury14 wrote: In almost every game I play, Wyches are effective and fun. 4++ in CC, combat drugs, lightning-quick initiative, objective secured, Fell-no-Pain all for just 10 points? That sounds pretty good to me.
Well...first off, you functionally just described Warriors also - and Warriors are at least good at their efforts in the shooting phase, unlike Wyches who are weak in the assault phase. And Warriors are even cheaper.
mercury14 wrote: When I assault my Wyches into a Hive Tyrant that's a win for me because he's likely to be tied up for a while unless he gets rescued. And Wyches will sprinkle occasional wounds on them (hydra gauntlets help). A lot of times in my lists I'll run Wych units to grab a couple enemy units in CC while multiple Reaver units subsequently charge in with bladevanes, then hit n' run out, assaulting in again the following turn. I also run disintegrators on their Raiders or put them in Venoms to soften up whatever they're hitting
To my mind the thing is - an MC I could assault with Wyches is also one I could gun down easily with poison and Blasters - which is what Warriors would have, which is what I would take instead of Wyches. The Reaver trick is okay, but it's really only saving them from Overwatch which Reavers are actually pretty resilient to in any case - and the job could be done by a better assault unit than Wyches regardless. I will agree our transports are good - but we have access to them via Warriors and even other assault units, that are also good - so I find that a non-starter as an argument for taking Wyches.
mercury14 wrote: A lot of what they can do depends on drugs, and I feel that people don't properly take them into account then evaluating Wyches.
I will guardedly agree with this, but there are actually not even that many drug effects that boost them in combat anymore.
mercury14 wrote: I've had matches where they're charging with S5 later in the game and just wrecking all kinds of face, taking down things SM bikers. In a tournament last month I had a squad of seven - yes SEVEN Wyches (with +1a drugs) solo a full-health Hive Tyrant. How did they do it? Splinter pistols took off one wound, the Tyrant challenged the Hekatrix which accepted, no Wyches died, and the thing ate two Agonizer wounds and failed two saves. 4-attack Hydra Gauntlet Wyches FTW. And that wasn't even with furious charge.
I will agree there are moments when any unit will perform above and beyond what one expects. I disagree that these moments happening are a good way to judge the actual quality of the unit.
Warriors don't have combat drugs, they only have one base attack in CC, and their 5+ is substantially worse than 4++ in CC. And since their gun is rapid-fire they can't even shoot and assault, only throw the grenade.
Against Nids you can't always rely on just throwing out a lot of poison and calling it a win. They can get into your ranks pretty quickly so it's quite helpful to have one or more units that can hang in CC with them, and for us that means either Wyches, Grots, or Talos. Maybe Sslyths but not really for their points.
+1A
+1S
+1WS
+1T
...all boost them in assault
+1Ld boosts them as tarpit units, less good but still somewhat useful
Jimsolo wrote: For my money, the ability to gain Objective Secured (which Hellions cannot do) is the deciding factor in the great game of 'Who Sucks More?', ending in slight favor of the wyches, who also have better equipment, as well as the possibility of bringing in a slot less Venom, which is always nice.
Ah-ah - you can't count the Venom and Objec.Sec as a benefit of the Wyches without justifying why you wouldn't take Warriors over Wyches.
I would actually say it is quite obvious that Hellions are better equipped - their base weapon is better for both assault and shooting - they only lose out on the grenades. So it's grenades vs. better assault and better shooting.
Lol, I DO take Warriors over wyches. Pretty much every time.
mercury14 wrote: Warriors don't have combat drugs, they only have one base attack in CC, and their 5+ is substantially worse than 4++ in CC. And since their gun is rapid-fire they can't even shoot and assault, only throw the grenade.
Well, they also could just rapid fire and then receive the assault allowing them o also Overwatch - and their 5+ is substantially better than the Wych 6+ vs. Overwatch if you feel a need to assault.
Also, you ding them for only having 1 base attack...well, so do Wyches - their only win is in having an additional CCW. So while that does give them +1 attack across the board better than Warriors, that's not actually that massively intimidating I feel.
I will agree Wyches do have the invuln save and the pistol and drugs, all of which do combine to make them marginally more effective than Warriors in dealing with assault - they are vastly inferior in shooting though. So, balance wise, I would say it's quite fair to suggest that Warriors would overall do more damage across the bredth of the game, and would also serve as a speed-bump in a reasonably similar way to Wyches barring power weapons on their opponents.
mercury14 wrote: Against Nids you can't always rely on just throwing out a lot of poison and calling it a win.
I somewhat disagree with this. Even in your own description you seem to be aware this is the way to handle Nids, you just also think a tarpit unit has value - to which I'll agree. But, yeah, massed shooting is an excellent way to deal with nids.
mercury14 wrote: it's quite helpful to have one or more units that can hang in CC with them, and for us that means either Wyches, Grots, or Talos. Maybe Sslyths but not really for their points.
I agree that an assault/counter assault/tarpit tool is useful. Where I disagree is that Wyches are remotely the correct choice. With their Liquifier, higher toughness, and greater damage output in assault, Grots are markedly superior to Wyches in dealing with Hordes. Sslyth also, on a point to point basis, are superior. I will agree Incubi are a bit lackluster, We also do have Reavers, Lhameans, Mandrakes, Wracks, Hellions, and Beasts as assault options, though I will agree some are better than others - I would say most are superior to the Wyches.
+1Ld boosts them as tarpit units, less good but still somewhat useful
+1I is the only pretty useless one.
+1 WS and +1A are also pretty lackluster - I will agree they boost, but in a very minor way as it's really just more hits at S3 Ap- which isn't exactly anything to write home about.
+1T is a "boost" but the fearsome wall of T4 isn't actually going to slow down too many units. I will agree it helps us use our FNP more though, which is indeed a great option to have, but requires the gaming of dealing with a lot of Str 6-7 specifically. Which is not out of the realms considering the builds out there, but most of the sources of that type of shooting I think will tend to chew through Wych squads anyway if they happen to be targeted upon us. I do accept it as a boost though.
It's to bad GW doesn't understand their own phases and worded it perfectly so that Wyches do not get their save vs. Overwatch otherwise they'd be amazing.
Hollismason wrote: It's to bad GW doesn't understand their own phases and worded it perfectly so that Wyches do not get their save vs. Overwatch otherwise they'd be amazing.
When they talk about Wyches they talk about their invulnerable save being used against Overwatch. Someone else brought it up , not sure where that was said though.
mercury14 wrote: Thor, you realize that hellglaives lost their +1A feature in this codex, right? They now have just one attack.
I most assuredly realize that - and don't get me wrong, I am not attempting to argue that Hellions qualify as "good" i think they are terrible.
I just also think Wyches are also terrible - and in the contest of 'who sucks least' tend to think Hellions are probably the winners.
Sorry to sidetrack the wych discussion, but I'm finalizing my army selections, and I'd like to hear some consensus from other players regarding the Court of the Archon -- especially from some of the older players.
We brought this up earlier in the thread, but as I read it, one can take a Court of the Archon without actually requiring an Archon. The Retainers rule seems only to indicate that the selection doesn't cost an additional HQ slot if you do include the Archon.
More importantly, this lets one satisfy the mandatory HQ slot by taking a Court -- without paying the Archon tax. Thor665 (and others), would you mind weighing in on this?
I think you'll run into lots of players who will contest your interpretation of the rules.
I also think it isn't worth it. The DEhq's aren't terrible, and the Warlord traits are pretty good too. They are a unit with some fun options, and you might be able to squeeze some gimmick juice out of them, but I think there are other, better options for the points.
Depends what you want to build, really - the Lhamean+Venom/Raider option is a really pretty potent build to get in some extra mech for shockingly cheap.
As to the legality of it...eh, I see the argument for both directions. I would say check with the TO for any given event before going there. I can think of a few bigger events that have already ruled it as a-ok, so there appear to be people going by the RAW as opposed to the RAI of the way it is written in the codex,
Jimsolo wrote: I also think it isn't worth it. The DEhq's aren't terrible, and the Warlord traits are pretty good too.
On that point, I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree. Unless I'm wounding on 2's with an instant death weapon, I don't like bouncing off a 2+ armor save.
That said, I'm functionally using an Autarch as my Archon already. Moreover, that Autarch gives me the Shard of Anaris, a Banshee Mask, and reserves manipulation. I simply don't need a second beatstick, much less one that comes without any force multipliers. Avoiding the HQ tax is a big deal to me.
I think I'll proceed as I am for now. I already need a pretty permissive environment because of my army's Forgeworld elements, so I'm probably not losing much more by avoiding the Dark Eldar HQ.
K. Thought you were looking for feedback; my bad. I hope it works out for you! If you're set on using a court sans HQ, I'd go with 1-5 Lhamaeans in a Venom.
Why do you feel like an HQ has to equal a beat stick, if I may ask? Not trying to change your mind, just curious. The DE have quite a few ways to use them. Webway portals open up a wide range of shenanigans with the HQ serving as essentially an escort. Archons and Haemonculi both have access to ranged options that certainly don't suck. And there's always the possibility of using the HQ not as a melee champion, but a melee weed whacker, targeting mobs of troop units that are beneath the notice of the beatstick big boys. It also occurs to me that you could pick up a Covens formation and use a character from one of those as your warlord. (Dark Artisan and Scarlet Epicureans leap out.)
Make sure you let us know how it turns out! If it works, I'd be more than willing to give it a shot myself.
Corollax wrote: What does the Haemonculus add to that arrangement, exactly? I don't follow.
I should have clarified a Coven Haemonoculus goes really well with Lhaemen because he gives them fearless and since they have PFP , FNP turn 2 , eventually giving the squad Zealot on turn 4. They are basically "better" Wracks.
The fact that their 10 a model for 3 attacks on a charge and 2+ poisoned is pretty boss.
The Court of Archon is just better with a Coven Haemonoculus
Ah, so you meant an entire squad of Lhameans -- not just one.
You're spending 70 points (minimum) to buff a 90 point squad. They're better, sure, but are they twice as good? Even as good as a redundant squad? I'm skeptical.
It's not that I'm looking for a beatstick, per se -- it's just that none of the force multipliers available in the DE codex are actually worth their point cost. For 100 points, I can get a Farseer. That's what an efficient force multiplier looks like.
EDIT: The WWP is interesting, but is probably more useful when paired with Eldar units like Wraithguard and Fire Dragons. If I truly had to use my HQ option, I'd probably field that. Not sure if I'd bother to pay for the shadowfield and agonizer.
If you think of it as a "better" Wrack squad with better liquifiers your not gonna go wrong.
Also, what's up with people always taking the minimum Grots, seriously 4 is the perfect amount.
I've been impressed so far with what I've seen people do with the D. Eldar even if people are hung up on Triple Dark Lance Ravagers, which I still cannot understand.
Corollax- I'd definitely go with the WG or Fire Dragons! Both are excellent examples of those shenanigans I was mentioning. (And that way you aren't having to make some squishy one wound model your warlord.) I think DSing Wraithguard or Fire Dragons (either/or) would add some desperately needed anti-armor to a DE list.
Hollis- I always start with 3 and add the fourth if I have the extra points. And I dont understand why you would take any Ravager other than triple Dark Lance. The Ravager is one of the few non CC anti-armor tools in the DE arsenal, and while it may not be as awesome as it was in the last 'dex, it's still nothing to shake a stick at.
Jimsolo wrote: And I dont understand why you would take any Ravager other than triple Dark Lance. The Ravager is one of the few non CC anti-armor tools in the DE arsenal, and while it may not be as awesome as it was in the last 'dex, it's still nothing to shake a stick at.
Ever run a pair of Ravagers with disintegration cannons? 18 S5 AP2 shots is nothing to shake a stick at.
Jimsolo wrote: Corollax- I'd definitely go with the WG or Fire Dragons! Both are excellent examples of those shenanigans I was mentioning. (And that way you aren't having to make some squishy one wound model your warlord.) I think DSing Wraithguard or Fire Dragons (either/or) would add some desperately needed anti-armor to a DE list.
My Warlord is my Autarch, with a 9-man Sslyth retinue. It's technically a primary Eldar army, just with only ~500 points of Eldar. I wouldn't call that squad fragile by any measure.
That said, Haywire Blaster Scourges are a perfectly effective source of anti-tank in our own codex. Certainly better than what Ravagers are these days...(No flickerfields, no aerial assault, and more expensive in the bargain? No thanks!)
Jimsolo wrote: And I dont understand why you would take any Ravager other than triple Dark Lance. The Ravager is one of the few non CC anti-armor tools in the DE arsenal, and while it may not be as awesome as it was in the last 'dex, it's still nothing to shake a stick at.
Ever run a pair of Ravagers with disintegration cannons? 18 S5 AP2 shots is nothing to shake a stick at.
At the cost of six Dark Lances? No I have not. I just can't justify that.
Corollax wrote:
Jimsolo wrote: Corollax- I'd definitely go with the WG or Fire Dragons! Both are excellent examples of those shenanigans I was mentioning. (And that way you aren't having to make some squishy one wound model your warlord.) I think DSing Wraithguard or Fire Dragons (either/or) would add some desperately needed anti-armor to a DE list.
My Warlord is my Autarch, with a 9-man Sslyth retinue. It's technically a primary Eldar army, just with only ~500 points of Eldar. I wouldn't call that squad fragile by any measure.
That said, Haywire Blaster Scourges are a perfectly effective source of anti-tank in our own codex. Certainly better than what Ravagers are these days...(No flickerfields, no aerial assault, and more expensive in the bargain? No thanks!)
Good idea with the Autarch. Do you find the CWE warlord traits to be worth it? (Not arguing, legitimately curious.)
Sorry, just not seeing it. Haywire Blasters have assy range, and Scourges are too fragile for my tastes. Even more fragile than the Ravagers, which won't be auto wiped by AP 4 shooting, which isn't that hard to come by.
Jimsolo wrote: Good idea with the Autarch. Do you find the CWE warlord traits to be worth it? (Not arguing, legitimately curious.
The Dark Eldar Warlord Traits are indisputably better. In practice, I think I'd probably use the Tactical (Maelstrom) or Strategic (EW) warlord traits. I don't care much either way, since it's all too random to build a strategy around. The reserves manipulation and first-turn fearless rules matter more to me. Eldar wargear tends to be quite a bit cheaper, as well.
Jimsolo wrote: Sorry, just not seeing it. Haywire Blasters have assy range, and Scourges are too fragile for my tastes. Even more fragile than the Ravagers, which won't be auto wiped by AP 4 shooting, which isn't that hard to come by.
Haywire Blasters have longer range than any other special weapon in our codex. They're shorter than a Dark Lance, certainly, but show me a squad that buys Dark Lances at 24 ppm! (Nevermind that haywire is more effective on all but the lowest of AV values).
This is colored partly by the fact that my Eldar contingent will be bringing three hornets. With six pulse lasers, the only thing Ravagers could possibly contribute would be the lance rule. Haywire is a far more cost-effective option for AV13 and AV14 models.
The only way the Dark Eldar can get Anti-Air is with other Air units. These can have a multifunctional role in the army so you're not sitting there pissing in the wind at 2+ Jink Flying Daemon Princes of Doom or Flyrants.
If you want anti-tank take a Reaver jetbike squad with Heat Lances or Scourges w/ Heat Lances etc..etc..
I just think they're overcosted.
I mean hell
Ravager
3 Dark Lances
Night Shield
Total 140
x 3
= 420 points
Void Raven w/ Void Lances, 4 Shatterfield missiles , Night Shields 215
Razorwing w/ 2 Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, Night Shields 165
I just view them as being way over priced for what you're actually getting which is basically a slightly improved Raider Chassis w/ 3 Dark Lances. If it even had 1 more point of armour I'd be like hell yes or if you could take them in squadrons.
Anything that's going to shoot at them isn't going to worry about that AV11 , sure it makes it immune to ST4 / 5 to a degree but overall just unimpressed.
The formation I think that is under appreciated the most is the Scarlet Epicureans.
2 Squads of Wracks ( Who can actually have Transports AFAIK, treat the turn 1 higher, get Precision Strikes with in 12")
Cronos
Haemonoculus
They're ability stacks with Father and Master of pain, along with the Animus. Now precision strikes isn't that great, what is great though is the fact they start off turn 1 with turn 3 abilities. That means when they charge turn 2, they're turn 4 and when they charge turn 3 , they're Zealot.
For a beta strike list this is pretty impressive. Charging in on turn 3 with Zealot and Poisoned 4+, which is not terrible for a 10 point model. Beta Striking with these in a Raider w/ Ossefactors and Distintegrators get's you 3 2+ Wound AP2 shots, and 6 AP 2 ST5 shots. Not to shabby.
The kicker is the Cronos is actually great to have, because you can stick it behind a Corpsethief Claw on the first turn and No One is going to shoot at this thing when 5 Talos are in front of it. All the while it's giving the Talos 4+ FNP.
So yeah
Scarlet Epicuraens + Corpsethief is a great formation choice. Especially if you are going for a army that has Animus Vitae combo in it as that's 3 turns higher with these guys.
Who underestimates them? They're awesome! The only formation from the covens supplement I'm not terribly impressed with is the Fleshcorps. The only real reason to take one is to get a full Carnival. (Which I'd really like to do someday...)
Fleshcorps is a good formation, it's basically another Urian when you think about it. Of course it only affects those wracks, but that's still really good because...
Look at this
Haemonoculus w/ Fleshgauntlet , WWP, Syndriqs < Free Floating Haemonoculus that can be put in other squads to give them Fearless or just buddy up with the Grotesquerie.
10 x Wracks w/ 2 Ossefactors
Raider w/ Zilch
10 Wracks w/ 2 Ossesfactors
Raider w/ Zilch
10 Wracks w/ 2 Osseffactor
Raider w/ Zilch
That's 15 AP2 shots. 9 ST 5 , 6 2+ Fleshbane, AP2
All of those have Fearless. Get rid of 30 models with Fearless, that will be in a raider, eventually gaining Zealot on turn 4 or sooner, and they have FNP.
Add a Grotesquerie
Haemonoculus
2 Squads of Grotesques
Like the book specifically has units and formations that go together perfectly. It's kind of neat.
if you scatter off, you can disembark after DSing to get close enough to fire the Templates
