Thought I would start a thread for Dark Eldar Tactics with the new codex.
So far some people have the codex and some people do not, and some people do not care and will never buy it, so here we are.
As usual some people say the sky has fallen in, and some people like the new options.
Lets look at whats different, starting with HQ-
Most of the special characters are gone. Baron, Kher, Malys, Duke, Vect. See ya, obviously they are now too busy with plots to go onto battlefields. GW broke a pattern here, normally only unit entries without models have been dropped for 7th codexes, Vect had a model, which was same era as Drazhar, but is currently MIA or POW, or just gone.
Special Characters that remain-
Lelith
Urien
Drazhar
Lets Begin.
HQ
Lelith-
Dropped in cost 25pts base.
Lost shardnet and impaler base.
Can purchase impaler, it is now reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Costs 15 pts.
Gained warlord trait 'blood dancer: +1WS to model if it is the warlord.
Attacks still ignore all armor
Dodge rule is the same as before
Gained rampage
Now attacks = 5 base, old = 4
League apart changed:
Old- gained bonus attacks based on WS difference between highest WS in target unit and Lelith's WS New- Reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls when in a challenge
Overall thoughts-
Against High WS models/units you now have more attacks if Rampage goes off, reroll all failed wounds and hits in a challenge is very good, especially given you have a good chance to end up with 7+d3[5+1 charge+1 for two ccwpn]+[d3 rampage] attacks on the charge, average 9 against any unit that outnumbers you regardless of target WS, netting more attacks than before.
Average 9 Attacks against T4 will see ~ 4 wounds on average that ignore saves after rerolls in a challenge if PfP is giving FC ~ 6 wounds on average in a challenge. Against T5 will see ~ 2.3 wounds average, if PfP is giving FC will see ~4 wounds in a challenge. Reminder that these attacks ignore all armor saves.
Urien
Dropped in cost by 50pts
Profile unchanged
With pain tokens gone no longer grants a pain token, now has haemonoculus ability that improves PfP level by 1 turn, normally it applies only to the unit a Haem is in, Uriens applies to all units within 12" not just his own. This means pfp 6+ turn 1, 5+ turn 2 for units within 12". There are other ways to augment this further in the codex.
Warlord trait- fixed, 'ancient evil' model and all friendly dark eldar units within 12" cause fear
Lost the ability to make grots uber grots
Lost mend the flesh
Lost father of Pain
gained 'It Will not Die!'
gained FnP 4+
Old ichor gauntlet- 3+ poisoned any unsaved wounds = ID New Ichor injector- Fleshbane, lethal dose[wound rolls of 6 = ID]
Old Casket: 12" str=d6ap=d6 assault 2d6 one shot
New Casket: 12" str=3 ap=3 assault 2d6 one shot
Old clone field: Negate d3 hits in assault
New clone field: 4++
Overall- In assault Urien lost the ability for every wound to be ID, but is now more likely to cause wounds, making him more threatening to non multiwound models, and slightly less threatening to non multiwound models. The casket is in some ways more useful now, you don't have to worry about the the chance of rolling a str 1 or 2 result, and don't have to worry about rolling an ap 4 ,5 ,6 making it overall slightly better at killing MEQs, as before you essentially had a 50/50 shot it was str 3 or less, and a 50/50 shot it was ap 3 or less, meaning the chance it was both was less than 50/50, which is where it is now given S 3 versus T 4, but at least you can predict the odds of something happening, and being able to make predictions about what you can do is more of a basis for competitiveness than before.
Urien is a force multiplier now with the extension of improving PfP for units within 12" whereas before he improved it only for d3 wrack/grot units
Drazhar
dropped in cost 40 pts
profile unchanged
wargear the same
Lost:
Darting strike
Riposte
Klaivex powers: 'muderous assault' and 'onslaught' gone
Master of blades:
Old- Incubi joined become fearless, drazhar gets klaivex powers listed above
New- Can only join incubi. While part of incubi unit, drazhar and all incubi in unit +1 WS
Gained-
Rampage
Muderous assault- gains additional attack for each to wound roll of 6 at same I step, these attacks do not generate further bonus attacks
Overall- still no access to grenades, or an inv save. Has the power to severely cripple anything he charges that is Toughness 5 or less, regardless of armor. Either possible 5+d3 str 5(6 with FC from PfP) ap 2 attacks, or 6+d3 str 4 (5 with FC from PfP) ap 3 attacks, with bonus attacks for to wound rolls of 6. With a unit of Incubi 3 incubi if they assault a unit that is not in cover, or even get assaulted by another unt, have the power to completely decimate said unit before they get to strike back due to large amount high initiative S4-5 ap 2/3 attacks. On the charge 3 incubi get 3x(4+d3) str3 ap 3 attacks or 3x(3+d3) str4 ap2 attacks at I 5 plus Drazhars attacks stated above, assuming no klaivex in squad, cost would be 250 for said unit.
Against a unit of TWC for example if you take the +1str ap2 option for all would see on average ~ 5.87 wounds that are AP 2 caused, if incubi have FC from PFP would be average ~ 8 wounds that ignore armor. if you take the AP 3 option for the extra attack but not the extra strength would see ~3.6 wounds on average without FC from PfP, and ~6.5 wounds with FC on the charge with ap3.
Results improve drastically against T4 and MEQ or TEQ.
Still weak against high toughness 6+ things due to needing to kill whats in assault and not being able to withstand a lot of attacks that ignore armor.
My first thoughts are that Dark Eldar have some really good vehicle hunting options now.
Scourge with Haywire blasters for dealing with Knights or Wave Serpents.
Reavers actually could be pretty good in this role as well. With Str 4 Rending and d6Str 6 Rending caltrops for HoW, coupled with their speed, could make them quite good vehicle hunters. Throw in a Heat Lance and you have a fast threatening unit that can hunt vehicles and pound MSU infantry units.
Whats the math on Reavers going after a Knight Titan? Ignoring that Ion Shield and smashing it with loads of Rending HoW in it's back or side sounds like a decent possibility off the top of my head.
rollawaythestone wrote: My first thoughts are that Dark Eldar have some really good vehicle hunting options now.
Scourge with Haywire blasters for dealing with Knights or Wave Serpents.
Reavers actually could be pretty good in this role as well. With Str 4 Rending and d6Str 6 Rending caltrops for HoW, coupled with their speed, could make them quite good vehicle hunters. Throw in a Heat Lance and you have a fast threatening unit that can hunt vehicles and pound MSU infantry units.
Whats the math on Reavers going after a Knight Titan? Ignoring that Ion Shield and smashing it with loads of Rending HoW in it's back or side sounds like a decent possibility off the top of my head.
Aren't all CC hits against walkers resolved against the front?
assuming you could get rear armor somehow(you would have to set up and then have the knight not run away or turn to face you)
12 reavers with 4 clusters ~270 points
8 str4 HoW needing 6s
4d6 str6 How ~14 hits needing 4+
8+ hull points.
I don't have my book on me, but i'm like 80% sure HoW is resolved against the side it hit against. But regular hits are against the front for Walkers. HoW is an exception.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's a question. Does Furious Charge modify a Reaver's Bladevane / Caltrops? I suppose not cause it's worded like a set modifier.
The Reavers are really durable too. 4+ Jink, 5+ armor, and very quickly will have FnP as well. Will get shredded by Wave Serpents, but are small and can attempt to hide.
rollawaythestone wrote: The Reavers are really durable too. 4+ Jink, 5+ armor, and very quickly will have FnP as well. Will get shredded by Wave Serpents, but are small and can attempt to hide.
everything gets FNP at the same time, they are a little slower moving across the table than they use to be. :(
So serious question...is it worth collecting Dark Eldar now? I really have begun to get tired of my Nids always getting shredded by pretty much any army these days
Frozocrone wrote: So serious question...is it worth collecting Dark Eldar now? I really have begun to get tired of my Nids always getting shredded by pretty much any army these days
I certainly wouldnt start the army now, so much BS junk. It also is a fairly expensive army to play, with a lot of it's best units in finecase or lots of cheap vehicles.
That said if you already play them, I wouldnt get too much doom and gloom. It sucks, but it has been done. Find a way to make it work or wait 4-5 years
WWP is insanely powerful. Expect to see eldar allies for no scatter wraithguard.
Beastmasters can take power swords. I could see 8 khymera and 4 beast masters with powerswords being a very scarry unit coming across the table.
Chronos and talos have fnp and can be ungraded to fnp 4+. That is a huge boost to survivability. They still maybe slow but they might be able to make it across the table.
Khymera are only daemons now so although they cause fear they are reduced to a 5+ invlun, so hug that cover with your beast squad.
There's a formation of 5 Taloi that gives them scout, I would hate to be facing that when they outflank...especially since they start with FnP.
I would love to see the tantalus deepstruck in with a WWP.
The funniest combo that I can think of is deep striking a unit in on turn 2 or 3 that's outfitted with the relics and war gear that stack to cause -4 LD and psychic tests to peril on any double and hit with soul fright, fear etc and cause as many LD checks as possible. The one problem is that this doesn't work against ATSKNF...
Khymera are only daemons now so although they cause fear they are reduced to a 5+ invlun, so hug that cover with your beast squad.
There's a formation of 5 Taloi that gives them scout, I would hate to be facing that when they outflank...especially since they start with FnP.
I would love to see the tantalus deepstruck in with a WWP.
The funniest combo that I can think of is deep striking a unit in on turn 2 or 3 that's outfitted with the relics and war gear that stack to cause -4 LD and psychic tests to peril on any double and hit with soul fright, fear etc and cause as many LD checks as possible. The one problem is that this doesn't work against ATSKNF...
Archons can only take one relic each. Though a spiritseer might be nice to add for phychic shriek and the power that takes away fearless.
I am rapidly building some stuff to finish off my army and play with my buddy tomorrow and am stuck on the talos/cronos... I don't know which to build! Talos has the better statline, and could melee vehicles or other tough stuff, and is a bit shooty... Cronos gives 4+ fnp but the 6 inch range seems marginal... Help me out! Ha ha, I will be facing Orks almost all of the time with my buddy if that helps..
flaming tadpole wrote: Quick question as I don't have the dex yet, is blasterborn still a possible thing or is it dead?
certainly still a thing. Changes are you have to take 5 models min, but each is 1 point cheaper and no shard carbines.
Kind of lacking compared to scourges, or allied firedragons though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Metalhed2434 wrote: I am rapidly building some stuff to finish off my army and play with my buddy tomorrow and am stuck on the talos/cronos... I don't know which to build! Talos has the better statline, and could melee vehicles or other tough stuff, and is a bit shooty... Cronos gives 4+ fnp but the 6 inch range seems marginal... Help me out! Ha ha, I will be facing Orks almost all of the time with my buddy if that helps..
Cronos are good in the massive 5 beast unit. You want 1 of them and 4 talos. so everyone has 4+ FNP
flaming tadpole wrote: Thanks! also are cluster caltrops and heat lances still one for every 3 reavers?
Yes that is correct!
Thanks exergy! I am not sure when I will be able to afford 5 more... But you have a good point, I am going to want both eventually so I may as well go either way for the first.
There's a formation of 5 Taloi that gives them scout, I would hate to be facing that when they outflank...especially since they start with FnP.
Or just march them foward. They cannot charge from outflanking, so either fire turn 1, get really close and fire + charge turn 2
compared to arrive turn 2 or 3, possibly on the wrong board edge, shoot, but possibly have no targets in range, and then charge turn 3-4 if there is anything in range
Frozocrone wrote: So serious question...is it worth collecting Dark Eldar now? I really have begun to get tired of my Nids always getting shredded by pretty much any army these days
If you like the army and want it, if you are really thinking abou tit, the new book IS'NT AS BAD AS PEOPLE ARE SAYING!
There is alot of hate going around for stupid reason.
Also with the ability to take 9 fliers, or the Coven codex with amazing good walking unit/formations and dont forget WWP's!!!! No scatter DS is amazing.
With Scourges getting much better, Bikes are still very useful, just in a different way, can take Blasters/Heat lances with Rending HoW for cheaper.
The meta shifted, something that was a Must to take now have to compete with other things (this is a good thing) more favor to the armor and a lot more options.
Some Army options:
Full DS: DSing 90% your army, get some grots in an Imperial Bastion (placed in the corner of back field table) with Voidshields+Common relay for easy to get Reserves.
-this will also work with the Flying lists Ive seen being thought about. 9 Fliers with DS'ing Venom/raiders.
Coven list: Lots of Grots, Wracks in Venoms, many Talos (formations) 4+ FnP's good AT and AI, just lacks AA (Normal for DE)
Tac: 2-3 Raiders, 2-3 Venoms, 1-2 bike lists, 1-2 fliers, 2-3 units of Scourges, DSing Archon+court, some Shields with Splinter Rack.
The point is, there are many options and different ways to play now, No army will be Eldar good for the Tournament scene. We will never be Top tier, but we IMO gain alittle ground compare to Orc, Tau, GK and Nids.
Why not equip an Archon/Succubus with a WWP and attach it to a Scourge unit to make sure they get where they're going? Have to take an HQ anyway, and might as well use it to help make sure that certain vehicle dies. Maybe 4x Heat Lances instead of Haywire Blasters- perhaps a Blaster(Archon)/Blast pistol(Succubus) for an additional chance at a Pen?
Sinful Hero wrote: Why not equip an Archon/Succubus with a WWP and attach it to a Scourge unit to make sure they get where they're going? Have to take an HQ anyway, and might as well use it to help make sure that certain vehicle dies. Maybe 4x Heat Lances instead of Haywire Blasters- perhaps a Blaster(Archon)/Blast pistol(Succubus) for an additional chance at a Pen?
Scourge should be used for haywire. Turn one you need to apply pressure on tanks and they do it better then anything else in the book. Hide them from sight then jump out 12 and start stripping hull points.
Using an Archon with scourge is frankly a waste of it's potential. If your playing mono DE then consider what role you need more. If you need to threaten their backfield for more then a turn I would use him to bring a Sslyth or Grot bomb. I honestly prefer the Sslyth as they are 10 points less a piece and each have a shard carbine meaning they can drop a unit on arrival. If your after more anti tank, I would take blaster born.
If your considering CWE allies then I would say warp in fire dragons. Some people like wraith guard more, but FD are cheaper and lets be honest, both units will be dead the turn after. Dragons are much better at AT and have a much smaller footprint meaning they are harder to prevent from coming in. If you want to have a shot at distorting a MC, take the WG. Either way also consider a shadow council of Shadow seers, being able to psishriek a different target then you shoot leans me toward FD's again as they can hit a high AV target while the Archons helm + a few psishrieks will drop any MC's or high value infantry out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I am thinking of fielding Barahoth +12 clawed fiends.
555pts for 40 T5 wounds.
On the assault they will poor out 72 S5 attacks plus barahoths 5 s4 ap3 attacks.
All with hit and run, should shred anything it looks at while being immune to tarpits!
Just got done playing the new DE with my Chaos and I will say that there vehicles have gotten weaker with the loss of the Flicker Field, they did gain shroud though which is still annoying.
Aether Sails have changed as well, no more raiders BSing there way across the table first turn.
jackflashultra wrote: Just got done playing the new DE with my Chaos and I will say that there vehicles have gotten weaker with the loss of the Flicker Field, they did gain shroud though which is still annoying.
Aether Sails have changed as well, no more raiders BSing there way across the table first turn.
They have, what, a 36" Flat Out with Aether Sales now? That doesn't seem much different then before.
Also, I didn't see this at first, but Raiders and Venoms come stock with DS now, FWIW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think stall tactics are going to be a very common thing for DE, now. Aim for second, and reserve, reserve, reserve. The longer you can wait, the better PfP is when you come on.
jackflashultra wrote: Just got done playing the new DE with my Chaos and I will say that there vehicles have gotten weaker with the loss of the Flicker Field, they did gain shroud though which is still annoying.
Aether Sails have changed as well, no more raiders BSing there way across the table first turn.
They have, what, a 36" Flat Out with Aether Sales now? That doesn't seem much different then before.
Also, I didn't see this at first, but Raiders and Venoms come stock with DS now, FWIW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think stall tactics are going to be a very common thing for DE, now. Aim for second, and reserve, reserve, reserve. The longer you can wait, the better PfP is when you come on.
Completely depends on format. If it's maelstrom then stalling loses you the game real fast.
Completely depends on format. If it's maelstrom then stalling loses you the game real fast.
Really? If anything I would think stalling is perfect for Maelstrom.
To be clear, I'm not saying reserve the entire army (which would obviously lose you any game). Keep enough fast elements on the board early, and reserve other fast elements to respond to new Maelstrom dynamics.
Sinful Hero wrote: Why not equip an Archon/Succubus with a WWP and attach it to a Scourge unit to make sure they get where they're going? Have to take an HQ anyway, and might as well use it to help make sure that certain vehicle dies. Maybe 4x Heat Lances instead of Haywire Blasters- perhaps a Blaster(Archon)/Blast pistol(Succubus) for an additional chance at a Pen?
a unit of scourges, decked with weapons is 120 points
an archon with blaster, WWP and nothing else(no shadowfield) is 110.
So the archon is nearly doubling the cost of the scourges, for not much effect.
with haywire, it only needs to DS within 24" of it's target. No risk of mishap
with heat, it needs to DS within 9" of it's target. With average scatter you should be able to make it almost all the time.
with heat, it needs to DS within 9" of it's target. With average scatter you should be able to make it almost all the time.
That's a fair point, and I tend to agree. Though, I don't think attaching the WWP to them is a terrible idea all the time. I would envision a list where the WWP is flexible, and if you had something you absolutely wanted to kill, like a Land Raider for instance, bringing in the Scourges for assistance.
If your considering CWE allies then I would say warp in fire dragons. Some people like wraith guard more, but FD are cheaper and lets be honest, both units will be dead the turn after. Dragons are much better at AT and have a much smaller footprint meaning they are harder to prevent from coming in. If you want to have a shot at distorting a MC, take the WG. Either way also consider a shadow council of Shadow seers, being able to psishriek a different target then you shoot leans me toward FD's again as they can hit a high AV target while the Archons helm + a few psishrieks will drop any MC's or high value infantry out there.
Is there anything in CWE eldar that has split fire, because that could really make things interesting
On another note, I am thinking of fielding Barahoth +12 clawed fiends.
555pts for 40 T5 wounds.
On the assault they will poor out 72 S5 attacks plus barahoths 5 s4 ap3 attacks.
All with hit and run, should shred anything it looks at while being immune to tarpits!
Obvious counter are things with str10 or ID. Luckily it could outrun a bunch of grotesques
There's a formation of 5 Taloi that gives them scout, I would hate to be facing that when they outflank...especially since they start with FnP.
Or just march them foward. They cannot charge from outflanking, so either fire turn 1, get really close and fire + charge turn 2
compared to arrive turn 2 or 3, possibly on the wrong board edge, shoot, but possibly have no targets in range, and then charge turn 3-4 if there is anything in range
BlaxicanX wrote: A 6'' scout move is going to get you in charge range turn 2?
Potentially, yes. That, or they are hugging the board edge, in which case you should be well on your way to winning anyway if you are playing any sort of objective based mission.
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
I know this might not be the best loadout for the sqaud, but i am more or less trying to figure out which models to magnetize the upgrades to, and dont want to have to use magnets on every model.
The Webway portal is pure win IMO. I am loving the new mandrakes as well for some ap4 action. As for AT the scourge seem to be the go to choice... 120 for 4 haywire blasters (just make sure you keep them alive!) They are better at killing tanks than any ravager would ever be! Take 2 or 3 of these units, and leave the ravagers at home.
I think that the new name of the game for DE will be reserve null deployment, with autarch Eldar support. I am thinking of a mantarch and then everything in reserve and hope to get the re roll reserves warlord trait on strategic or DE wlt table.
Then pounce on the enemy when they are allready all buffed up.
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
Been thinking about the same thing myself. My gut says to stack them onto the same unit, and keep your cheap ablative wounds up front till you close in on them.
Furthermore, Basters or heat lances?
If you are think Caltrops, I would have to go with Heat Lances right? That would be my thinking anyway.
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
Been thinking about the same thing myself. My gut says to stack them onto the same unit, and keep your cheap ablative wounds up front till you close in on them.
Furthermore, Basters or heat lances?
If you are think Caltrops, I would have to go with Heat Lances right? That would be my thinking anyway.
Yeah i think stacking is better too, just wanted to be sure, before i take my tools to the plastic.
Still unsure of the heat lances. they are better against tanks inside of 9", but blasters are better against everything else.
Reavers are the bomb.
Took a unit of 12, for 252 points. That's 4D6 S6 rending hits on the charge, and you come with hit and run. Just hope for +1T combat drugs!
Don't bother with the gun upgrades, you'll be jinking constantly. Great spot for the Autarch on jet bike.
Scourge are awesome as well, can be a cheap throw away unit for tanking killing, or can try and hold back near 24" and peppering with haywire.
Shadowfield is 10 points more, but doesn't burn out until the end of the phase. If a lucky S4 hit gets through, I still get the 2++ against those Init 1 power fists (for that round).
Hellions... they're ok, but pale compared to reavers.
I was a naysayer to Reavers but, you bring up valid points. 252 pts for 4D6 S6 Rending HOW hits + another 8 S4 Rending HOW hits in addition to their other attacks + Hit and Run
Sounds like a mildy decent counter to that Inviz. Problem is how can they weather return hits without Farseer 4++ power or thsir own Inviz?
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
I don't think you can do that. The Champion can have caltrops (it says 'one model'), but not a special weapon (that says 'one Reaver'.)
jackflashultra wrote: Just got done playing the new DE with my Chaos and I will say that there vehicles have gotten weaker with the loss of the Flicker Field, they did gain shroud though which is still annoying.
Aether Sails have changed as well, no more raiders BSing there way across the table first turn.
They have, what, a 36" Flat Out with Aether Sales now? That doesn't seem much different then before.
Also, I didn't see this at first, but Raiders and Venoms come stock with DS now, FWIW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think stall tactics are going to be a very common thing for DE, now. Aim for second, and reserve, reserve, reserve. The longer you can wait, the better PfP is when you come on.
24" Flat out and yes it really is. Before they could use there aether sails in the movement phase, moving all of that 24 some-odd inchs and then flatting out for another 18". NOW there aether sails don't work in the movement phase. Meaning no extra movement in the movement phase, MEANING no bullshitting there way across the table turn 1
extremefreak17 wrote: With our buffed splinter racks it is pretty disappointing that trueborn cant take shard carbines.
However, you can now put 9 Sslyth + archon (for LD) in a raider with splinter racks instead! 21 T5 wounds and 27 twin-linked poison shots!
It's a moot point though because they increased the cost of the racks and the splinter canon by 5 points, so even had they been able to take carbines, after all the mounting costs you probably would have been able to take to splinter boats full of warriors which would through down the same fire power
If your considering CWE allies then I would say warp in fire dragons. Some people like wraith guard more, but FD are cheaper and lets be honest, both units will be dead the turn after. Dragons are much better at AT and have a much smaller footprint meaning they are harder to prevent from coming in. If you want to have a shot at distorting a MC, take the WG. Either way also consider a shadow council of Shadow seers, being able to psishriek a different target then you shoot leans me toward FD's again as they can hit a high AV target while the Archons helm + a few psishrieks will drop any MC's or high value infantry out there.
Is there anything in CWE eldar that has split fire, because that could really make things interesting
On another note, I am thinking of fielding Barahoth +12 clawed fiends.
555pts for 40 T5 wounds.
On the assault they will poor out 72 S5 attacks plus barahoths 5 s4 ap3 attacks.
All with hit and run, should shred anything it looks at while being immune to tarpits!
Obvious counter are things with str10 or ID. Luckily it could outrun a bunch of grotesques
Well there is always going to be a counter unless you play primary CWE and use invisibility. I tend to prefer staying mostly DE even if it kneecaps the list some. Most s10 isn't a major issue, usually it is wraithknights which barahoth can tank the shooting for a turn while we should kill in our shooting phase pretty easily.
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
I don't think you can do that. The Champion can have caltrops (it says 'one model'), but not a special weapon (that says 'one Reaver'.)
Order of operations semantics. Just give a Reaver the lace and caltrops then make him a champ. Honestly I think the champ is a poor investment anyway. The sweet spot is 6 reavers IMO as well, Either go double heat lance and pop that annoying vehicle before vanishing or go double caltrop, in which case don't take a special, neither special is adding enough for the cost toward combats and you'll be jinking that close every turn anyway.
jackflashultra wrote: Just got done playing the new DE with my Chaos and I will say that there vehicles have gotten weaker with the loss of the Flicker Field, they did gain shroud though which is still annoying.
Aether Sails have changed as well, no more raiders BSing there way across the table first turn.
They have, what, a 36" Flat Out with Aether Sales now? That doesn't seem much different then before.
Also, I didn't see this at first, but Raiders and Venoms come stock with DS now, FWIW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really think stall tactics are going to be a very common thing for DE, now. Aim for second, and reserve, reserve, reserve. The longer you can wait, the better PfP is when you come on.
24" Flat out and yes it really is. Before they could use there aether sails in the movement phase, moving all of that 24 some-odd inchs and then flatting out for another 18". NOW there aether sails don't work in the movement phase. Meaning no extra movement in the movement phase, MEANING no bullshitting there way across the table turn 1
He means now you can't have the best of both worlds and gain the movement while shooting.
Instant death melee weapons.
Liquifier guns.
No longer go full moron.
The lack of them killing themselves is nice, but at LD3 (4) you NEED a babysitter anyway or a simple tank shock will send them back into your deployment zone and honestly probably off the table.
Yea and with 5 MC's spread out it isn't like they can skirt around you easily, honestly you wouldn't want to be too far forward turn one depending on your opponent or they might jump over you. (looking at you waveserpents )
extremefreak17 wrote: With our buffed splinter racks it is pretty disappointing that trueborn cant take shard carbines.
However, you can now put 9 Sslyth + archon (for LD) in a raider with splinter racks instead! 21 T5 wounds and 27 twin-linked poison shots!
or 9 sslyth +1 Llamian
cheaper
Well, not really since you need the archon to unlock it anyway, but it allows you to use the archons leadership/shadow field and most importantly WWP elsewhere.
I do agree though, this is an awesome build! I actually might prefer 2-3 llamians instead for their combat utility against high T targets.
Order of operations semantics. Just give a Reaver the lace and caltrops then make him a champ.
I don't think that is allowed, that's why they used different wording for different items. But this is an old rules argument; it is basically the same issue as with SM Apotecharies.
Order of operations semantics. Just give a Reaver the lace and caltrops then make him a champ.
I don't think that is allowed, that's why they used different wording for different items. But this is an old rules argument; it is basically the same issue as with SM Apotecharies.
Fair enough, I don't want to derail things with rules debates. I see your point, I still stand by mine that the arena champ is nowhere near worth it now that he can't take a venom blade. Its +35pts to get an arena champ with an agonizer, that's more then 2 reavers.
So I just got the Codex as I am really keen to start a Dark Eldar army (something about the hard armies that appeals to me, Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar..) and had a flick at the Ravager and couldn't find why it's bad. I understand Lances aren't that good for Vehicle popping but it's still a fast vehicle so couldn't it fire all of it's weapons when it moves more than 6inches?
Frozocrone wrote: So I just got the Codex as I am really keen to start a Dark Eldar army (something about the hard armies that appeals to me, Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar..) and had a flick at the Ravager and couldn't find why it's bad. I understand Lances aren't that good for Vehicle popping but it's still a fast vehicle so couldn't it fire all of it's weapons when it moves more than 6inches?
it can fire all when it moves 6 or less.
it can fire 2 when it moves 6-12. the third it can snapshot
it use to have a special rue that let it fire all of them, but it got nerfed
Lets say I were to take a unit of six with 2 blasters, 2 cluster caltrops, and an arena champ w/agonizer. Which models do i give the blasters and caltrops to? Would I want to give the arena champ one of each and then put the other two on another single model? Or maybe spread them throughout the unit?
I know this might not be the best loadout for the sqaud, but i am more or less trying to figure out which models to magnetize the upgrades to, and dont want to have to use magnets on every model.
Furthermore, Basters or heat lances?
Putting one set of Cluster Caltrops on the Champion is the safest bet, because he can look-out-sir onto other models. It also allows him to take down enemy characters first. The downside is that it allows a tough character to tank all the HoW's for his unit by issuing a challenge and it's a waste if the Arena Champion declines and so would lose all their HoW hits.
How are DE supposed to deal with the various forms of flyer spam that still shows up. Necrons, Guard, various forms of SM?
Our flyers just dont seem to be able to stand up to a prolonged air fight as AV10 means they are getting penned by all manor shooting airborne or otherwise.
I don't think they could do much about it in the prior codex either. However, there is now the option for up to 6 Razorwings and 3 more Void Ravens. That's some flier spam.
What's the take on the Kabalite Raiding Party?
You get 6+ FnP turn 1, along with
"During the entire first game turn, and duruing any tyrn in which the Night Fight rules are in effect, all Troops units from this Formation have 5+ cover save, and all other units from this Formation have a 6+ cover save."
5+ cover and stealth and fnp is fairly decent durability for DE.
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Jayden63 wrote: How are DE supposed to deal with the various forms of flyer spam that still shows up. Necrons, Guard, various forms of SM?
Our flyers just dont seem to be able to stand up to a prolonged air fight as AV10 means they are getting penned by all manor shooting airborne or otherwise.
Nightshields gives them a 3+ jink. You could spam 6 fighters jink when you need to and used the non-jinky ones to shoot down his flyers.
Or spam scourge and hope to get lucky.
At 1720 points, you get 2 HQ's, 4 troops and 12 units of scourge, packing 48 blasters/heat lances.
Jayden63 wrote: How are DE supposed to deal with the various forms of flyer spam that still shows up. Necrons, Guard, various forms of SM?
Our flyers just dont seem to be able to stand up to a prolonged air fight as AV10 means they are getting penned by all manor shooting airborne or otherwise.
you assume that they are supposed to be able to deal with it. They arent, they are supposed to lose.
Of course if you are super fast and hug cover, you might be able to knock out their ground troops, but it is unlikely
Jayden63 wrote: How are DE supposed to deal with the various forms of flyer spam that still shows up. Necrons, Guard, various forms of SM?
Our flyers just dont seem to be able to stand up to a prolonged air fight as AV10 means they are getting penned by all manor shooting airborne or otherwise.
Being Eldar, could you not just outmaneuver Flyers? They are fast ,but only in a straight line
How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.
Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.
A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.
I played three games today against Orks, CSM and Space Marines. Thought I'd share my thoughts.
Klaivex is an auto-take
If you have any plan of running Incubi then don't be cheap, grab a Klaivex. He was the undeniable MVP of the day. Ran him twice with demi's, once with just a klaive -- I say don't spend the points on the demi. Ran him in a unit with 4 incubi out of a venom. Waited until turn 3 to get FC (after hitting the animus vitae) and with rampage he was averaging 6 attacks on the charge. Ate Kharne in a challenge, killed over his points in every single game.
Obviously you need to be careful with Incubi, but for 110 pts you get a monster CC unit that just destroys.
Hellions are potentially very good, but it all depends on the drugs.
YMMV on whether you're willing to take the risk, but getting 20 shots in a 10 man squad of them is nothing to sneeze at, and with the +1 A drugs they're legit. With FC they were getting 30 attacks on the charge, HoW and S4 went through a lot.
The perfect Archon build is still up in the air.
I still ran my standard soul trap, Huskblade and it performed well. Not amazingly, but well. The real fun comes in the relics and it's very much based on the army you're facing.
Against Orks I ran the armor and Archangel of Pain. WWP in, spaced right between a squad of lootas and nobs. -2 leadership from the armor, popped the angel for another -2. Killed 5 lootas, 3 nobz and then lootas ran off the board. It was stunning. Wont work against everything, but it's very good.
Wyches performed better than expected.
It took them WAY too long to come online, but if they're alive turn 5 they're darn near immovable. Throw them into a unit trying to mop up in CC and cap objectives. They beat their head into them forever.
The formation is stunning
Find the ruins, use stealth -- it's free jink without jinking. This set up my alpha strike in all three games. Nightshields are a must-have (which you already knew) but it's amazing how ho-hum a 6+ cover (5+ with nightfighting) sounds only to see it perform so well.
Remember you get to re-roll your trait too. Getting that No.2 is critical.
Ravagers are very much "meh"
I'm accustomed to running multiple Ravagers and they just didn't feel very good. Might be bad rolls, maybe more testing is needed -- but they were largely underwhelming.
The Voidraven is very, very good
Used the same strategy each game. Fly in, supersonic off the board dropping the bomb, come back in the next turn and shoot. It earned back its points every game.
Against orks and Space Marines it was by a large margin -- slightly less against CSM. It went down to a hail of auto cannons from Obliterators, but I was pleasantly surprised. The Void Mine is so very, very good.
Scourges did well, but heat lances might be the best loadout.
I assumed haywire would be all-valuable, but with lance shots and blasterborn it wasn't that big a deal. Having heat lances allows them to be more of a catch-all and soften up units I was charging with my Incubi.
-----------------------
That's it for now. I'll add more when I try different lists.
I still ran my standard soul trap, Huskblade and it performed well. Not amazingly, but well. The real fun comes in the relics and it's very much based on the army you're facing.
Against Orks I ran the armor and Archangel of Pain. WWP in, spaced right between a squad of lootas and nobs. -2 leadership from the armor, popped the angel for another -2. Killed 5 lootas, 3 nobz and then lootas ran off the board. It was stunning. Wont work against everything, but it's very good.
It should be noted that an Archon can only take one Relic. Either the Armor, or the Archangel, but not both.
Scourges did well, but heat lances might be the best loadout.
I assumed haywire would be all-valuable, but with lance shots and blasterborn it wasn't that big a deal. Having heat lances allows them to be more of a catch-all and soften up units I was charging with my Incubi.
-----------------------
That's it for now. I'll add more when I try different lists.
Haywire will probably be better in more competitive contexts against Knight Titans and Wave Serpents. Heat Lances are probably better TAC weapons.
How well do you think the new PfP rules will work with Deep Striking Venoms/Raiders? Gives units a sure fire way to get FnP...although less models on the board
Frozocrone wrote: @ DE Vets
How well do you think the new PfP rules will work with Deep Striking Venoms/Raiders? Gives units a sure fire way to get FnP...although less models on the board
With enough mandrakes to keep you from getting tabled, it might work. 2+ cover and out of line of sight isn't all that easy to kill.
lambsandlions wrote: How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.
Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.
A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.
They can be pretty decent. On the charge, they're killing ~6 marines on average, counting the three caltrops and the squad's 27 melee attacks. With I6 they're going to easily hit and run out of there, and skilled rider is giving them a 3+ jink save.
If I were to run them, I probably wouldn't bother giving them any ranged special weapons, since any enemy not brain-dead is going to recognize how threatening they are and you'll probably be jinking them the majority of the time. I would just rely on your strength 6 rending hits to whomp vehicles and infantry.
Also, with the average roll on the combat drugs table being 4, you've got a decent chance of rolling around with T5 reavers, for extra lulz.
True Borne as psudo Ravager.
Raider, night shields, dark lance.
5 Trueborne, 2 dark lances.
170 points for the combo, and you get a 3+ jink, which only makes 1 of the 3 dark lances snap shot. The other two are firing normally. You also can split 1 shot off of the other two.
lambsandlions wrote: How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.
Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.
A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.
They can be pretty decent. On the charge, they're killing ~6 marines on average, counting the three caltrops and the squad's 27 melee attacks. With I6 they're going to easily hit and run out of there, and skilled rider is giving them a 3+ jink save.
If I were to run them, I probably wouldn't bother giving them any ranged special weapons, since any enemy not brain-dead is going to recognize how threatening they are and you'll probably be jinking them the majority of the time. I would just rely on your strength 6 rending hits to whomp vehicles and infantry.
Also, with the average roll on the combat drugs table being 4, you've got a decent chance of rolling around with T5 reavers, for extra lulz.
Yeah, the special weapons don't work well on a unit that will be jinking every turn. An arena champ with a power sword might be nice, he will kill 2 extra marines.
Also you are equally likely to get any outcome in the combat drugs. There is no average roll, but half of the are pretty good so 50/50 chance.
Auswin wrote:I played three games today against Orks, CSM and Space Marines. Thought I'd share my thoughts.
Klaivex is an auto-take
If you have any plan of running Incubi then don't be cheap, grab a Klaivex. He was the undeniable MVP of the day. Ran him twice with demi's, once with just a klaive -- I say don't spend the points on the demi. Ran him in a unit with 4 incubi out of a venom. Waited until turn 3 to get FC (after hitting the animus vitae) and with rampage he was averaging 6 attacks on the charge. Ate Kharne in a challenge, killed over his points in every single game.
Obviously you need to be careful with Incubi, but for 110 pts you get a monster CC unit that just destroys.
Hellions are potentially very good, but it all depends on the drugs.
YMMV on whether you're willing to take the risk, but getting 20 shots in a 10 man squad of them is nothing to sneeze at, and with the +1 A drugs they're legit. With FC they were getting 30 attacks on the charge, HoW and S4 went through a lot.
The perfect Archon build is still up in the air.
I still ran my standard soul trap, Huskblade and it performed well. Not amazingly, but well. The real fun comes in the relics and it's very much based on the army you're facing.
Against Orks I ran the armor and Archangel of Pain. WWP in, spaced right between a squad of lootas and nobs. -2 leadership from the armor, popped the angel for another -2. Killed 5 lootas, 3 nobz and then lootas ran off the board. It was stunning. Wont work against everything, but it's very good.
Wyches performed better than expected.
It took them WAY too long to come online, but if they're alive turn 5 they're darn near immovable. Throw them into a unit trying to mop up in CC and cap objectives. They beat their head into them forever.
The formation is stunning
Find the ruins, use stealth -- it's free jink without jinking. This set up my alpha strike in all three games. Nightshields are a must-have (which you already knew) but it's amazing how ho-hum a 6+ cover (5+ with nightfighting) sounds only to see it perform so well.
Remember you get to re-roll your trait too. Getting that No.2 is critical.
Ravagers are very much "meh"
I'm accustomed to running multiple Ravagers and they just didn't feel very good. Might be bad rolls, maybe more testing is needed -- but they were largely underwhelming.
The Voidraven is very, very good
Used the same strategy each game. Fly in, supersonic off the board dropping the bomb, come back in the next turn and shoot. It earned back its points every game.
Against orks and Space Marines it was by a large margin -- slightly less against CSM. It went down to a hail of auto cannons from Obliterators, but I was pleasantly surprised. The Void Mine is so very, very good.
Scourges did well, but heat lances might be the best loadout.
I assumed haywire would be all-valuable, but with lance shots and blasterborn it wasn't that big a deal. Having heat lances allows them to be more of a catch-all and soften up units I was charging with my Incubi.
-----------------------
That's it for now. I'll add more when I try different lists.
Well, youre Voidraven tactic is illegal. While I am not sure if it is intended, that you can supersonic off the board in the same turn it arrives, the rules for bombs are pretty clear: No Turbo-boost after a bombing run! --- The thing with one artefact per Character was already mentioned. You can still use this tactic if you put 2 characters in the same unit, but its going to be really expensive and as you mentioned, it doesnt work against marines, nids and everything else with ASKNF or fearless.
Spoiler:
BlaxicanX wrote:
lambsandlions wrote: How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.
Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.
A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.
They can be pretty decent. On the charge, they're killing ~6 marines on average, counting the three caltrops and the squad's 27 melee attacks. With I6 they're going to easily hit and run out of there, and skilled rider is giving them a 3+ jink save.
If I were to run them, I probably wouldn't bother giving them any ranged special weapons, since any enemy not brain-dead is going to recognize how threatening they are and you'll probably be jinking them the majority of the time. I would just rely on your strength 6 rending hits to whomp vehicles and infantry.
Also, with the average roll on the combat drugs table being 4, you've got a decent chance of rolling around with T5 reavers, for extra lulz.
The average roll on a d6 is 3.5 --- well you cant roll that and the average number has nothing to do with the chance to get a specific roll. The chances to get +T is just 1/6
Spoiler:
HawaiiMatt wrote:True Borne as psudo Ravager.
Raider, night shields, dark lance.
5 Trueborne, 2 dark lances.
170 points for the combo, and you get a 3+ jink, which only makes 1 of the 3 dark lances snap shot. The other two are firing normally. You also can split 1 shot off of the other two.
I think you forget that the Lances of the trueborn can only snapfire, if the raider has moved. Lances are heavy and the passangers count as moved too after their Transport has moved. If you want a stationary weapon platform this might be an Option, otherwise take the ravager or a raider filled with blasterborn coming out of a WWP for some rear armor shots. Another thing is, that I dont find lance-ravagers that impressive anymore with the new vehicle rules. We now have better AT Options for the points (Scourges, Reavers). I prefer the Variant with Dissis, cause massed AP2 fire is something I cant get easily somewhere else.
Am I wrong thinking about a Deep Strike Venom with Trueborn, 4 with Blasters, being a decent Sternguard stand-in? Lance S8 is enticing, plus spending the tiny amount of points on another Splinter Cannon means 12 shots at some Infantry unit nearby and 4 S8 Lance at the vehicle right next to it. A nice little blob of death? 180pts is pretty steep for not-a-sure-thing but a Jink afterwards might keep it alive for a second try. Would be nice on backfield models like a Tau Hammerhead or similar long range tank.
It should be noted that an Archon can only take one Relic. Either the Armor, or the Archangel, but not both.
Based on what, precisely? I don't see any rule that limits relics to one-per-Archon. The Archon entry says "may times items from the artefacts of cruelty list" and pg 109 simply says "only one of EACH relic may be taken."
An Archon can absolutely take two relics, as long as the same relic isn't doubled up somewhere else in the list.
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Elmir wrote: Can you fly off the board and bomb in the same turn with the voidbomber? o.O
I had no idea that was possible...
Yeah, I messed that up. I missed the rule that it couldn't enter and leave on the same turn. This changes things quite a lot. I'll have to playtest with the bomber further.
Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
Seriously, my Archon sucks :(
If your not using a WWP just field lelith or drazar if you want a combat machine. Even more so on drazar if your fielding an Incubi escort.
Agree about taking a Klaivex with Incubi, looks beastly.
I'm only fielding three Incubi though, Klaivex being one of them. Wish I could find points for more but eh - I do have a Succubus attached to them in a Venom though..
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
Seriously, my Archon sucks :(
If your not using a WWP just field lelith or drazar if you want a combat machine. Even more so on drazar if your fielding an Incubi escort.
I'd stay away from wouldbe cc machines these days.
True born or other units like Firedragons should be able to get the job done.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
Seriously, my Archon sucks :(
The Klavex is a nice bonus, the extra init, WS, and attack being a bargain for 10 points.
The demi klaves are kind of a joke though. if combined, they function exactly like a regular klave, if apart you get +1 attack but are taken down to str3 and AP3. What is the point of paying 15 points for that?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
Seriously, my Archon sucks :(
If your not using a WWP just field lelith or drazar if you want a combat machine. Even more so on drazar if your fielding an Incubi escort.
I'd stay away from wouldbe cc machines these days.
True born or other units like Firedragons should be able to get the job done.
While I agree, sometimes you just want to field a CC monster.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Agreed on the Klaivex being an auto take on a unit of Incubi. He did amazingly for me in 2 games (the third he was evaporated by a Riptide, what are you gonna do?). I took a unit of 4 to bodyguard my Archon, and in both games the Archon was shocking. He seriously only scored 1 wound in 2 games (although that wound did instant kill a Mawlock, so he came in where it mattered) but in both games the Klaivex was cleaving through units. He did 3 wounds a turn to a unit of Warriors until he killed them, the Archon was staring at a butterfly. Then he slaughtered some Grey Hunters, the Archon was admiring a fancy looking Rock.
Seriously, my Archon sucks :(
The Klavex is a nice bonus, the extra init, WS, and attack being a bargain for 10 points.
The demi klaves are kind of a joke though. if combined, they function exactly like a regular klave, if apart you get +1 attack but are taken down to str3 and AP3. What is the point of paying 15 points for that?
Yea the wrecked the demi klaives. I could see it as a neat option if it was like 5 points but 15 is silly dumb.
In my recent game vs SM, I ran two 3xIncubi + Klaivex units in Venoms and they wrecked face. Four of them w/Klaivex is a good number due the the frequency of 5x model units tha make it easy to Rampage.
mercury14 wrote: In my recent game vs SM, I ran two 3xIncubi + Klaivex units in Venoms and they wrecked face. Four of them w/Klaivex is a good number due the the frequency of 5x model units tha make it easy to Rampage.
Sounds solid. But I want some mandrakes too.
Question, why venom? Wouldn't the 3+ jink raider with 3 hp be better?
Raiders would have been a bit safer but I own nine Venoms and only three Raiders and the Raiders were occupied.
By the way, I assaulted an invisible (LOL) unit of 3x Grav Cents, Chapter Master, and Librarian with 9x Reavers w/3x Caltrops, killing the Master with Hammers (he had one wound removed already) and losing only one Reaver in return. The following turn I lost only one more Reaver, hit and ran out of combat and then on my turn I charged right back in, wiping the squad.
Auswin wrote: Oh man... I didn't even think about Reavers being the hard counter to centstar. That's fantastic
Yeah the first time in I had a packet of 4 rending wounds and the Chapter Master was mashing the LOS button after failing his 3++ on the first one (having 1 wound left). He let a Cent die and when he tried to give a second Cent a wound he failed LOS and died too. The Second time in all the Cents died to Hammers and the Librarian died to CC attacks. The whole Centstar died and all I lost were two Reavers.
Just to clarifie you cant wwp a talos/cronos unit as the carryier cant join mc's.
heres an idea for fun wwp a 20 warrior blob with 2 cannon and 2 blasters, with the carrier having the animus to give a big blob of troops with fnp 5 (if animus kills something) in the enemy deployment zone turn 2. Could be intresting.
I found fear pretty darn useful to be honest. The armor giving fear and -2 leadership caused a unit of 30 boyz with a PC nob to be reduced to WS1.
The nob couldn't hit my archon and the number of wounds went from a likely 15 to 5 as a result.
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Skullhammer wrote: Just to clarifie you cant wwp a talos/cronos unit as the carryier cant join mc's.
heres an idea for fun wwp a 20 warrior blob with 2 cannon and 2 blasters, with the carrier having the animus to give a big blob of troops with fnp 5 (if animus kills something) in the enemy deployment zone turn 2. Could be intresting.
You can in the supplement! There's a formation that's two Talos and a Cronos with a Haemonculus that gets to attach. It explicitly says it ignore the rule that ICs can't join MCs.
Skullhammer wrote: Just to clarifie you cant wwp a talos/cronos unit as the carryier cant join mc's.
heres an idea for fun wwp a 20 warrior blob with 2 cannon and 2 blasters, with the carrier having the animus to give a big blob of troops with fnp 5 (if animus kills something) in the enemy deployment zone turn 2. Could be intresting.
True nuff.
I was thinking of the old rule where you couldn't join a unit of only one MC, but could join if there were 2 or more..
mercury14 wrote: Raiders would have been a bit safer but I own nine Venoms and only three Raiders and the Raiders were occupied.
By the way, I assaulted an invisible (LOL) unit of 3x Grav Cents, Chapter Master, and Librarian with 9x Reavers w/3x Caltrops, killing the Master with Hammers (he had one wound removed already) and losing only one Reaver in return. The following turn I lost only one more Reaver, hit and ran out of combat and then on my turn I charged right back in, wiping the squad.
Reavers are spectacular.
BrB gonna get three boxes
I always loved the models and to see this after Bladevanes were changed just makes me happy
What would you say is the optimal number?
@Everyone
Which missiles are best for the Razerwing? Neurotoxin or Monoscythe?
Which missiles are best for the Razerwing? Neurotoxin or Monoscythe?
I prefer Necrotoxin on the whole now. The loss of AP means you're better off going monoscythe against majority T3, light armor -- but Fleshbane against anything means it does more against MEQ/TEQ, MC's and Demon Princes. If you meta is Eldar/IG heavy I'd go mono, but overall I think using Monos to pop transports are "meh" given the other options.
Okay, so I really like the Dark Eldar models and have been looking to start a small Dark Eldar force (both as a standalone and as an ally to my Eldar) for some time now. Currently I have the contents of the old battleforce (Raider, 10 Warriors, 10 Wyches and 3 Reavers) and I also think I have an OOP Raider lying around too. Is this a decent start? Where would you recommend I go from here? What's good in the new book and what would work well alongside Eldar? Bear in mind I'm not looking to spend too much or to amass a huge army!
You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.
Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.
In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.
3 more Reavers should have you set out with a well balanced small force. Then all you need is a HQ of choice to carry a Webway Portal to teleport your Wyches in. That is the cheapest way to get an effective army for small points
Deepstrike the Wyches somewhere safe, have the unit of 6 Reavers with 2 Caltrops scare the pants off of everyone while the 10 man Splinter Cannon toting Warrior Squad shreds infantry.
Best i can do with those limitations, but it should be fun!
special rules the same [note that PfP has changed]
Gained- may buy a venom or raider as a dedicated transport
Ultimately the differences between the new Archon and the Old Archon are in the wargear.
Most notably the Husk blade is now ap 3 instead of 2, and soul trap has changed.
Soul Trap Old- If bearer kills an enemy independent character or monstrous creature can take a LD test, if passed doubles strength of bearer, to max strength 10.
New- For each unsaved wound inflicted in challenge on an enemy character gain +1 strength (up to max strength 10)
PGL- no longer grants grenades to unit, instead gives a shooting attack that does wounds based off LD roll, fearless and ATSKNF models immune. The ability to grant a court, incubi, grots, wracks, or any other unit joined grenades is now gone.
Blast pistol- still range 6.
Shadowfield has changed slightly, for the better
Old- 30 pts
New-40 pts, works until the end of the phased it is lost due to failed save, and is no longer 1 per army.
Webway portal- large change
Old- let you put out small blast marker sized "marker" and models could arrive from it from reserves
New-If model with WWP is in reserves or ongoing reserves, the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and this unit will not scatter if arriving from deepstrike reserve.
This is a very large change.
Essentially you can put a model with a WWP with any unit it can join in reserves, and now they can arrive anywhere you choose. This is something the Dark Eldar needed for a long time and is fluffy as well as powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.
Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.
In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.
+1 to this.
also for allying dark eldar bring FA slot open topped transports, which may be attractive to harlequins, banshees, Striking scorpions,and wraithblades.
Shadowfield has changed slightly, for the better
Old- 30 pts
New-40 pts, works until the end of the phased it is lost due to failed save, and is no longer 1 per army.
Shadowfield hasnt been 1 per army since 3rd edition, when it was 25 points. Back then it could also go anywhere, on an upgrade character if you wanted
It is better, but costing 10 points more... Kind of a wash.
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
-Matt
dont hellions cost 13 points and have 2 shots each?
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
-Matt
dont hellions cost 13 points and have 2 shots each?
Correct. They also happen to have 18" range as opposed to Venom's 36".
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles. Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots. I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank. Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
-Matt
Actually Hellions get 10 shots for the same points cost as 2x SplinterCannons Venoms, which are half the range of the Venom
That said, you probably could build a mass infantry list, but I don't see why you would, you would lose a lot of mobility
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
-Matt
While Hellions are 65 pts for 5, and only have 2 shots each, this certainly is something to consider. Hellions will pump out lots of poison shooting, they are super mobile, have combat drugs and Str 4 attacks, and will have all the power from pain buffs. A unit or two of 10 Hellions running around could be pretty decent.
Auswin wrote:You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.
Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.
In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:3 more Reavers should have you set out with a well balanced small force. Then all you need is a HQ of choice to carry a Webway Portal to teleport your Wyches in. That is the cheapest way to get an effective army for small points
Deepstrike the Wyches somewhere safe, have the unit of 6 Reavers with 2 Caltrops scare the pants off of everyone while the 10 man Splinter Cannon toting Warrior Squad shreds infantry.
Best i can do with those limitations, but it should be fun!
Thanks for the advice guys!
Just to clarify, I am willing to buy a few more units, I just don't want to end up owning every unit in the codex...
And yeah, orIginally (with the old dex) I was going to go transport heavy for DE, with three Venoms, a Raider and a Ravager at 1000pts. It sounds like this is still the way to go?
And I heard wyches aren't great anymore, are they still worth taking? And are Reavers still as awesome as they were? It was my original plan to get another box of them.
special rules the same [note that PfP has changed]
Gained- may buy a venom or raider as a dedicated transport
Ultimately the differences between the new Archon and the Old Archon are in the wargear.
Most notably the Husk blade is now ap 3 instead of 2, and soul trap has changed.
Soul Trap Old- If bearer kills an enemy independent character or monstrous creature can take a LD test, if passed doubles strength of bearer, to max strength 10.
New- For each unsaved wound inflicted in challenge on an enemy character gain +1 strength (up to max strength 10)
PGL- no longer grants grenades to unit, instead gives a shooting attack that does wounds based off LD roll, fearless and ATSKNF models immune. The ability to grant a court, incubi, grots, wracks, or any other unit joined grenades is now gone.Blast pistol- still range 6.
Shadowfield has changed slightly, for the better
Old- 30 pts
New-40 pts, works until the end of the phased it is lost due to failed save, and is no longer 1 per army.
Webway portal- large change
Old- let you put out small blast marker sized "marker" and models could arrive from it from reserves
New-If model with WWP is in reserves or ongoing reserves, the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and this unit will not scatter if arriving from deepstrike reserve.
This is a very large change.
Essentially you can put a model with a WWP with any unit it can join in reserves, and now they can arrive anywhere you choose. This is something the Dark Eldar needed for a long time and is fluffy as well as powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.
Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.
In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.
+1 to this.
also for allying dark eldar bring FA slot open topped transports, which may be attractive to harlequins, banshees, Striking scorpions,and wraithblades.
Dont Archons come with Plasma Grenades anyway? so all they really lost from the launcher was defensive grenades?
Just to clarify, I am willing to buy a few more units, I just don't want to end up owning every unit in the codex...
And yeah, orIginally (with the old dex) I was going to go transport heavy for DE, with three Venoms, a Raider and a Ravager at 1000pts. It sounds like this is still the way to go?
And I heard wyches aren't great anymore, are they still worth taking? And are Reavers still as awesome as they were? It was my original plan to get another box of them.
The venoms certainly still have use. You can probably find a place for the single raider. The ravager will do alright until you can replace it.
No wyches are not worth taking.
Reavers changed, from one kind of awesome to another thing that may well also be awesome.
Dont Archons come with Plasma Grenades anyway? so all they really lost from the launcher was defensive grenades?
Archons do come with plasma grenades. But incubi, grotesques, beasts, hellions, wracks, etc do not come with grenades. The PGL allowed you to give all those units grenades, now it doesnt. So while the archon is no worse for the change, half the army is.
Just to clarify, I am willing to buy a few more units, I just don't want to end up owning every unit in the codex...
And yeah, orIginally (with the old dex) I was going to go transport heavy for DE, with three Venoms, a Raider and a Ravager at 1000pts. It sounds like this is still the way to go?
And I heard wyches aren't great anymore, are they still worth taking? And are Reavers still as awesome as they were? It was my original plan to get another box of them.
The venoms certainly still have use. You can probably find a place for the single raider. The ravager will do alright until you can replace it.
No wyches are not worth taking.
Reavers changed, from one kind of awesome to another thing that may well also be awesome.
I don't actually have those venoms or the ravager, so having to replace them is no problem
Good to hear Reavers are still good though and, as for wyches, I can always convert them into sisters of slaughter for WHFB Dark Elves, so again, no problems. We usually play Battleforged in my group though, so I'd need another Troops choice. I could get another unit of Kabalites or, if it's better and, indeed, legal, simply split them up into two units of five?
Dont Archons come with Plasma Grenades anyway? so all they really lost from the launcher was defensive grenades?
This is correct. Succubus' do too, which is why I think a Succubus with some Howling Banshees with an exarch w/ executioner could be a viable strat.
Maybe a bit more legit, but you really could have done the same thing with a combat Autarch. I think the main problem is that S3 powerswords are the suck. Banshees are a unit that is meant to slay Power Armour, yet they only wound it on a 5+? So damn fail.
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all.
At the new cost for the infantry now, you get more poison shots out of the infantry than you do the vehicles.
Hellions at 12 points get 3 shots each. 60 points for 15 shots. Venom is 65 for 12 shots.
I think you can actually build a massed infantry list with the new codex. It's just a matter of landing the right mix of poison vs anti-tank.
Scourge lets you get anti-tank guns where you need them, as do webways. Reavers do a wonder as well.
-Matt
Actually Hellions get 10 shots for the same points cost as 2x SplinterCannons Venoms, which are half the range of the Venom
That said, you probably could build a mass infantry list, but I don't see why you would, you would lose a lot of mobility
EDIT: Ninja'd
My bad, I thought they had carbines. Looks like only scourge get carbines now.
So you pay 80 points for 15 shots. Still not bad. 5.33 points per shot, making the firepower slightly cheaper than a venom.
The reason to go massed infantry is to neuter the effect of all tank killing firepower. It's a T3/T4 army. Anything designed to kill AV11 is wasteful.
sfshilo wrote: My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.
Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.
Pretty much this. It's why I'm such a huge advocate of running the formation. If you can get Warlord Trait No.2 then night-fighting is basically a lock, and sticking your skimmers in cover is giving them a jink save without the jink. Also it almost guarantees your WWPs will come in turn 2, then you can hit something with the animus vitae to jump-start the PFP.
I watched a game between DE and CSM today where 10 wyches held up Abaddon and 5 CSM termies on turns 5 and 6 because fearless and the invuln kept him stuck mid-board.
sfshilo wrote: My impression of DE is IF you can make it to turn three intact you can do well.
Also a 5++ with a 3+ cover jink on a fast skimmer is pretty sick as far as transports go.
Venom can't get the night shield (caps at 4+ jink), Raider can't get the flicker field (no 5++).
With the new costs, I'm liking the Raiders a lot more than the Venom. 3 Hullpoints at 3+ jink is going to hold up a whole lot better.
The troops seem underwhelming to me, so I'm thinking about using my 3 Venoms with 5 unupgraded warriors. It's a really cheap way to dump 66 poison shots on the table (330 points).
The troops seem underwhelming to me, so I'm thinking about using my 3 Venoms with 5 unupgraded warriors. It's a really cheap way to dump 66 poison shots on the table (330 points).
I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.
For those 330 pts you're looking at two raiders packed with Warriors and racks.
66 poison shots hitting on 3's = 22 wounds -- 8 unsaved wounds to MEQ
20 poison shots (at 24") hitting on 3's re-rolling = 9 wounds -- 3 unsaved wounds to MEQ 40 poison shots (rapid fire) hitting on 3's re-rolling = 18 wounds -- 7 unsaved to MEQ
Factor in the disintegrator cannons and you're looking at 4 unsaved at max, 8 unsaved at rapid fire. I think the extra survivability in the raider and more bodies is worth it.
Also, it should be noted that jinking a Venom destroys your kill potential to 2 wounds, compared to 2.7 at max and 4.7 at rapid fire in raiders with racks.
I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.
Snip math.
Good point. For the same cost, you get the same 6 hullpoints, but with a 3+ jink, and no loss of poison effectiveness while jinking.
The question then becomes, what do you use a venom for?
Point for point, the Raider is more effective at bringing poison hits, and more durable as a transport.
With the stock venom being the same cost, it's hard to justify it for even a small squad of blasterborne.
The only advantage seems to be the smaller footprint, if you're deep striking or hiding.
Time to convert them to vypers?
Maybe I'll use the smaller venoms for Incubi delivery, where being able to hide is more important.
I use Venoms for Incubi delivery and Blasterborn -- but also note that Scourges aren't bulky. Sticking them in a venom gives more mobility than jumping, a fire platform and an extra thin piece of armor. Heat Lances can be used out of DS, haywire for further away
They're also good for DSing without a WWP. Still a risk, but you can't reasonably do that with a raider because of the footprint.
Auswin wrote: I use Venoms for Incubi delivery and Blasterborn -- but also note that Scourges aren't bulky. Sticking them in a venom gives more mobility than jumping...
Page 80 of the basic rule book under transport: Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jetpack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.
Page 65 of the basic rule book: Speical rules: Jump units have the Bulky and Deep Strike special rules.
Page 91 of the Dark Eldar codex: Unit Type, Jump Infantry.
Page 86 and 87 (Dark Eldar) lists the Raider and Venom, neither specifically states that they can carry Jump Infantry.
No, they cannot ride in Raiders or Venoms.
On the other hand... Jump Infantry can embark in a building (page 110).
Traceoftoxin wrote: Venoms shoot at 36.... huge advantage over raider squads. Also, scourge cant embark.
This. Also you want to drop MSU squads on objectives out of sight, venoms allow you to do this while giving you a very high output offensive tool. Raider squads are fantastic but usually are an all your eggs in one basket trick.
I advocate for a mix of both. 2 raider boats with racks and 2-4 venoms depending on the size of the game. I will note that I will no longer arm my basic warriors with blasters. I just isn't worth the cost for the odd pot shot.
Red Corsair wrote: I will note that I will no longer arm my basic warriors with blasters. I just isn't worth the cost for the odd pot shot.
Especially given the cheap cost of Shredders. They're a highly undervalued weapon. Maybe not a lock against MEQ, but it's a horde killer and more often than not you're doing 3-5 wounds with it.
well good things I told my gf to keep her de force small and use warriors in raiders. I think wyches may have a use, gf used them as a clean up unit, after the raiders and warriors had dropped transports and weaken units with poison, the wyches would come and just decimate them. (haven't gotten the codex yet). what is the codex formation? was that stated yet?
beside the dropping Vect, no more AP2 for Archons, and no haywire for wyches(but do think they had a boost to dodge to work in the assault phase not just CC) I kind of like some of the things I am hearing, at least its not totally invalidating her force all together (like I said she usually skirted around the board taking shots and never really engaging unless it was needed.)
I sure don't want to play more money into an army that I wanted to keep small and keep her interested in playing without her losing all the time. AND, their seems to also be a use for the mandrakes (her first models she bought by herself), those models are pretty sweet. Another question what do you guys think would be the best load out for her archons besides WWP?
Auswin wrote: You really need a lot of transports for DE. I don't think they can work as a footdar army at all. Realistically you want around three raiders and four venoms in a 1500 pt list.
Pick if you want Kabals, Wych Cult or Covens and build from there. I like Kabals the best, so amass a lot of Kabalite warriors. They're pretty cheap and should allow you to convert enough trueborn out of them.
In terms of allying with Eldar: I think it's all about kabalites and WWP archons to bring along D-Sythe wraithguard or fire dragons.
Exactly my thought.
A Kabal is the most versatile DE strike force.
Covens are a bit more specialize since they bring less long range weapons to bear.
Wych Cult is more cc oriented which is bad news in a shooty edition.
Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?
lambsandlions wrote: How good are reaver jetbikes? In the old codex they were mostly just harassers who made little sweeps by your opponent but now that bladevanes are HoW based they may have actually good better? A unit of 9 can dish out 3d6 s6 rending HoW attacks. This can very realistically destroy most vehicles who's rear armor is usually av10. Against marines, 10 HoW does 6.66 regular wounds and 1.66 rending wounds, or about 3.75 unsaved wounds. Plus you still have the regular bladevanes s4 rending HoW hits, plus 3 s3 normal attacks per reaver.
Survivability wise reavers are rocking t4 with a 3++ jink save making them about as hard to kill as marines. Jinking is not a big deal for the reavers as their splinter rifle is not the most impressive weapon. Combat drugs can also do a lot to make the t5.
A few units of 9 reavers could be very scary might be a better counter to serpent spam than scourges.
HoW is against the side you ram, not necessarily back armor.
Used the same strategy each game. Fly in, supersonic off the board dropping the bomb, come back in the next turn and shoot. It earned back its points every game.
Does it have a special rule that allows him to leave the board in the same turn it arrives ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, if I read correctly, Reavers dish out a crazy number of S6 Rending attacks.
Would a Reaverstar be possible ?
Maxxed reaver unit, two jetseers, archons with windriders MSU running behind for buffs, moving to LOS in the assault phase shenanigans ?
mercury14 wrote: Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?
Well, in former edition I've thrown my Archon vs anything.
Never unsupported (Wyches) and with an agonizer.
Now the world has changed.
I'm still a huge advocate for 10 warriors in a Raiders with racks.
Snip math.
Good point. For the same cost, you get the same 6 hullpoints, but with a 3+ jink, and no loss of poison effectiveness while jinking.
The question then becomes, what do you use a venom for?
Point for point, the Raider is more effective at bringing poison hits, and more durable as a transport.
With the stock venom being the same cost, it's hard to justify it for even a small squad of blasterborne.
The only advantage seems to be the smaller footprint, if you're deep striking or hiding.
A raider with 3+ jink and splinter racks costs 85, 20 points more than a venom with 2 cannons.
The Shadow wrote: So do scourges seem to be one of the standout units of the new codex?
And how do wracks fare? As they've got a new kit, I'm kinda presuming they'll be pretty good...
Scourges are finally pretty darn good with their point drop and ability to take 4 heavy/special weapons. Basically devistators, that can fly and deep strike. on the other side T3 4+ save.
Wracks are virtually identical to how they were, although they got a new gun in the kit. PFP is different, the codex chart doesnt start giving them anything until Turn 4 and 5. The coven chart gives them a lot of stuff awesome starting on turn 2. Of course they cannot benefit from EW or IWND, so the later stuff is wasted on them.
Weaponwise, the liquifier got worse, the hexrifles a little better.
The new wrack is pretty awesome, nice range and will do some damage to single wounded good save models. Kind of a waste against guardsmen and doesnt work on multiwounded models.
mercury14 wrote: Archons losing access to AP2 melee weapons is a nerf to their utility but I'm just curious, how many people were using Archons in CC to take down assault termis and 2++ save MCs? Even with a shadowfield it seems to me that they've never been very good in that role because they still die. How much of a nerf is this really?
The husk blade was awesome for killing riptides, dreadknights, tyranofex, mega nobs, oblits... pick most books and their was a vital unit that it hard countered. Heck it could even chop down commonly taken characters like necron overlords/destroyer lords and mephiston. The loss of AP2 is defintely a big deal as now he is only good killing MEQ which the book doesn't need help with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
turgon868 wrote: Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.
Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:
4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?
Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?
I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.
For alternate AT I'd take reavers. They are the same cost, similar durability but more importantly they have eldar jetbikes which lets them jump to within 9" with heatlances then jump back 2d6 and with skilled rider they can hop into terrain without danger. So if I want anything other then shardcarbines of haywire blasters I will turn to reavers.
turgon868 wrote: Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.
Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:
4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?
Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?
I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.
For alternate AT I'd take reavers. They are the same cost, similar durability but more importantly they have eldar jetbikes which lets them jump to within 9" with heatlances then jump back 2d6 and with skilled rider they can hop into terrain without danger. So if I want anything other then shardcarbines of haywire blasters I will turn to reavers.
Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?
I am not sure I'd run reavers with any special weapons since I'd just want them to jink every turn. I am interested to see how effective the caltrops end up being though.
turgon868 wrote: Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?
Nope, it also gives move through cover.
Incorrect. You gain +1 jink and autopass difficult tests.
It's pretty awesome really.
Technically equivalent.
I think it's a lot easier to say +1 jink and move through cover though.
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
Since bikes, which are the only units that get Skilled Rider, do not care about difficult terrain to begin with, it's equivalent really, with the added bonus that it simplifies the game rules.
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
I'm going to try 5x warriors with a blaster and sybarite with haywire grenades in a venom for 4 troop choices this saturday. I never liked running the single blaster in the squad because it didn't seem like enough anti armor to be worthwhile, but having two threats to vehicles makes it more reasonable to me and each of these units only costs 135. Depending on the range, you'd get two shots in the shooting phase and one more desperate chance in the assaulting phase.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm going to try 5x warriors with a blaster and sybarite with haywire grenades in a venom for 4 troop choices this saturday. I never liked running the single blaster in the squad because it didn't seem like enough anti armor to be worthwhile, but having two threats to vehicles makes it more reasonable to me and each of these units only costs 135. Depending on the range, you'd get two shots in the shooting phase and one more desperate chance in the assaulting phase.
I'd only run that build if you plan to mass deep strike all of them.
turgon868 wrote: Seems like Scourges are exceedingly versatile now. Most lists I have seen have people putting either Heat Lances or Hawywire blasters on.
Has anyone though about using them to fill other roles:
4 Blasters (140pts squad) compared to Blasterborn in a venom?
Stock unit (80pts squad) with 5 shardcarbines compared to warriors in venoms/raiders?
I say this as I will probably pick up 4 boxes for the above mentioned haywire and heat lances leaving me 10 models to spare.
For alternate AT I'd take reavers. They are the same cost, similar durability but more importantly they have eldar jetbikes which lets them jump to within 9" with heatlances then jump back 2d6 and with skilled rider they can hop into terrain without danger. So if I want anything other then shardcarbines of haywire blasters I will turn to reavers.
Doesn't skilled rider just mean +1 to jink saves?
I am not sure I'd run reavers with any special weapons since I'd just want them to jink every turn. I am interested to see how effective the caltrops end up being though.
You missed my point though. If your going to run scourge with heatlances then your better off using reavers since they have a better shot at surviving. DS'ing scourge with heatlances is way to random, you can easily scatter outside melta range unless you come in close in which case you risk mishap. Either way they die next turn. Heat lance reavers can turbo behind cover turn 1 then jump shoot jump and have a great shot at survival. Since reavers can ignore dangerous they don't always need to be jinking, just drive through ruins.
Red Corsair wrote: If your going to run scourge with heatlances then your better off using reavers since they have a better shot at surviving. DS'ing scourge with heatlances is way to random, you can easily scatter outside melta range unless you come in close in which case you risk mishap. Either way they die next turn. Heat lance reavers can turbo behind cover turn 1 then jump shoot jump and have a great shot at survival. Since reavers can ignore dangerous they don't always need to be jinking, just drive through ruins.
I'm not sold it is way to random. several armies run DSing meltaguns on terminators with only a 6" melta range. That scatters pretty easily, but is still effective.
Scourges have another 3", 1 more gun than termicide, and a smaller footprint so less likely to mishap.
I am really liking the formation... Looking forward to the Covens book to see what sort of nonsense they have access to. The new wrack weapons reads pretty gnarly, my math-fu is weak so I dont know how good it actually is, but sounds awesome.
Until I get the supplement, however, I am planning on either 2 venoms of incubi, or 2 10man squads of grots either with a succubus and an archon with em, deepstriking in the backfield to cause all sorts of nonsense. 2 squads of 6 reavers w/ caltrops, 4 squads of scourges w/ haywire. Couple of raiders w/ racks full of warriors only thing i am unsure of is heavy support- i am thinking voidraven but more for the anti-air...
Yeah we got hit with the bat fairly hard in some areas, but i dont think its gonna hurt us once everyone gets some table time and figures out the optimum strats for their meta
Here is a video Library of the individual Tactica Videos that I have been making with the new release, I hope you enjoy them as much as I have had fun making them.
Hollismason wrote: While I don't play Eldar or Dark Eldar, it seems to me there's going to be some nasty gak with Iyanden.
Mainly because
Archon ; Webway Portal
1-5 Iyanden Spirit Seers w/ Telepathy. Is 1-5 Psychic Shrieks in a turn.
5 Wraithguard w/ Wraithcannons or D Scythes
Can pretty much kill two units in the game straight up on landing. Vehicle or Unit.
Plus w/ Iyanden you get Wraithguard as Troops if you want them, and you can take a unit of Fire Dragons to stick in a Venom or w/ another HQ w/ WWP.
The first combo is close to 500 points, very squishy.
The second combo doesn't make any sense.
It's already been discussed, you can try it, it's not going to be worth its points.
You missed my point though. If your going to run scourge with heatlances then your better off using reavers since they have a better shot at surviving. DS'ing scourge with heatlances is way to random, you can easily scatter outside melta range unless you come in close in which case you risk mishap. Either way they die next turn. Heat lance reavers can turbo behind cover turn 1 then jump shoot jump and have a great shot at survival. Since reavers can ignore dangerous they don't always need to be jinking, just drive through ruins.
This was something i was thinking, the ability to simply use the cover to hide your advances will mean you mostly wont need to jink, blast through the terrain straight into whatever your target is i am really seeing a gunboat styled list working effectively. DSing in your venoms and raiders to help soften up your targets before you hit them with your HoW caltrop reavers. Then a few units intended for CC clean up like incubi. Although these are my thoughts on the kabal side, as i dont intend to try coven just yet (running a fluffy style list that coven dont currently fit).
Ascalam wrote: The codex reads to me as more of a Codex : Eldar supplement than an actual faction.
Most of the things you can do with it involve allying in CWE ..
That has less to do with the dark eldar book itself and more to do with the fact that Eldar is BUSTED
Partially that, to be sure.
the codex seems a bit insipid to me though, and missing a few things.
VERY few SC (yeah i know, no model = good bye ), no LOW listed, Warlord traits by and large suck.
There are a few bright lights, especially if you play coven.
Doesn't help that more than the usual amount of the codex is given over to fluff and a massive wodge of pictures. That really makes it feel more like an add-on than a codex to me.
That said a lot of the new crop of codexes have that feel. Guess i'm just getting old.
the codex seems a bit insipid to me though, and missing a few things.
VERY few SC (yeah i know, no model = good bye ), no LOW listed, Warlord traits by and large suck.
There are a few bright lights, especially if you play coven.
Doesn't help that more than the usual amount of the codex is given over to fluff and a massive wodge of pictures. That really makes it feel more like an add-on than a codex to me.
That said a lot of the new crop of codexes have that feel. Guess i'm just getting old.
Not trying to be all anti GW and such... but to me it seemed more like this:
"what do all dark eldar players already own... what dont they own... buff those.." obviously its not all like that and having the majority of the dex brought up so coven stuff is actually playable... but it seems like the highly competitive looking units this dex are the units you dont own not to say your current units arent worth anything, but most people seem to be building lists around units they dont already have (unless you already had em under all that dust).
In regards to the ability to Buff eldar... it sorta seems the other way. Its the DE units imo that allow the eldar to do nifty stuff, but you can still do those nifty things without the eldar... the eldar cannot. Can the eldar DS all their vehicles if they wish? can they DS pinpoint any unit, assault out of vehicles... these are all awesome things the DE have; yes they allow the eldar to do it if taken as allies, but it works the otherway too. I just think the reason people think its that the DE are the tag along is because eldar are so competitive/broken/full of possible cheese that any allies are seen as the biscuit to the cheese.
The codex layout does indeed seem like a colouring book, but like you said they are moving that way in general, the ork book the first half is fluff and piccies! only annoying thing is they keep having like the wargear/relic list before the units then the actual wargear descriptions after and i feel like im shifting about in the book a lot for not much reason
The codex layout does indeed seem like a colouring book, but like you said they are moving that way in general, the ork book the first half is fluff and piccies! only annoying thing is they keep having like the wargear/relic list before the units then the actual wargear descriptions after and i feel like im shifting about in the book a lot for not much reason
Flip back and forth a few hundred times and you'll need a new $50 codex.
Eldar/DE vs DE/Eldar is an interesting debate.
Flip back and forth a few hundred times and you'll need a new $50 codex.
Havent you heard? each page has a limited viewing time of 200 minutes, after that said page shall unbind and walk back to GW.... ive heard rumours that they also steal models as they go.
Didnt you know the codexes are only leased to us, in about a month GW will be asking for em back along with lease release charges and overdue book returns.
Red Corsair wrote: If your going to run scourge with heatlances then your better off using reavers since they have a better shot at surviving. DS'ing scourge with heatlances is way to random, you can easily scatter outside melta range unless you come in close in which case you risk mishap. Either way they die next turn. Heat lance reavers can turbo behind cover turn 1 then jump shoot jump and have a great shot at survival. Since reavers can ignore dangerous they don't always need to be jinking, just drive through ruins.
I'm not sold it is way to random. several armies run DSing meltaguns on terminators with only a 6" melta range. That scatters pretty easily, but is still effective.
Scourges have another 3", 1 more gun than termicide, and a smaller footprint so less likely to mishap.
I am sure my opinion is tainted from experience. Whenever I deep strike something that isn't LoTD or in a drop pod it seems to scatter massive amounts. I have had issues with lone wolves and they are single models lol.
I am from the camp that thinks just because we have 6 FA choices doesn't mean we should have toss away units that are hit or miss. Also note that while scourge have a 3" boost over melta, thats only inside melta range, outside of 9" they are awful unlike melta that are great out to 12 against light armor.
Another realization is that all of the leadership stuff works against daemons as well.
So marines(which honestly dark eldar have the tools to deal with so no biggy) Tyranids in synapse(once again second verse same as the first).
Second only the MODEL with the fearless rule can not receive wounds. Units that contain fearless models benefit from fearless but are not fearless themselves.
So outside of those two types it will work well against the armies that are actually a problem.
Another perk that is hidden under the radar is tank shock. Now all our venoms can have TS via chain snares. I think its an awesome tool after you DS and jink. Just TS as many units off the table as possible before firing.
Yep, just make sure you dont pass over a model that can reliably hurt you(like the guy with the melta) combined with all the leadership reducing things in the army, you could theoretically make them take 3-4 checks per unit. Also then after they fail any additional tank shocks will cause an auto fall back.
Mandrakes, Scourges and Grotesques seem like the big winners of the book.
Mandrakes get Shrouded and their shooting attack from the start.
Scourges get two more heavy weapons.
Grotesques lose their kill yourself downside and get instant death melee weapons and liquifier guns.
dan2026 wrote: Mandrakes, Scourges and Grotesques seem like the big winners of the book.
Mandrakes get Shrouded and their shooting attack from the start.
Scourges get two more heavy weapons.
Grotesques lose their kill yourself downside and get instant death melee weapons and liquifier guns.
Clawed fiend packs rock. Bikes rock. Courts rock. All in all I think it was a solid update.
So realspace raider detachment - if I get this correctly
It is battle forged
I can use any HQ I need two troops BUT they are not OS
I can have 6 FA slots
I have special warlord traits and missions
I use regular PfP chart from codex
If I take allies (eg. eldar) their troops would be OS
So the big handicap is no OS troops right? Anyone else this yet? I played a game and am hoping I did it right, lol.
dan2026 wrote: Mandrakes, Scourges and Grotesques seem like the big winners of the book.
Mandrakes get Shrouded and their shooting attack from the start.
Scourges get two more heavy weapons.
Grotesques lose their kill yourself downside and get instant death melee weapons and liquifier guns.
Clawed fiend packs rock. Bikes rock. Courts rock. All in all I think it was a solid update.
It seems like most of the units in the book got buffed in one way or another. And if they didn't get buffed, I'm not sure any of them really got worse.
Buffed PfP and more survivable Raiders means Wyches got buffed. They just lost most of their utility against vehicles (which they never should have had in the first place).
Other than the WWP , honestly the artifacts they have are not terribly impressive at all.
Otherwise reading it a bit it's a good codex imo. It's not overpowered, some units that were bad got good. Some units that have NEVER been good (wyches) other than for like one thing stayed the same option. Also PFP is really good. Especially as you can manipulate it. It's possible to make it so Turn 1 becomes Turn 3, and that's crazy.
I mean seriously a army with a majority Feel No Pain is excellent.
Plus the army is designed around a beta strike with all that Deep Striking. Then you throw in Feel No Pain plus Furious Charge.
That isn't even considering all the wonderful combos you can have with the Eldar such as Dark Reapers in Venoms or Ravagers, Deep STriking Non Scattering Wraith Guard or Fire Dragons.
Everyone get's aggravated with Fliers, yeah you can take 6 of them.
What would you say is the better version of Bladevanes, 5th or 7th? I hear people say that they got nerfed as they can no longer fly over troops and just wreck face..
Hollismason wrote:Other than the WWP , honestly the artifacts they have are not terribly impressive at all.
I kind of like the two Ld modifiers. If you take 2 HQs with WWP, strong beta strike units, and the 2 Ld modifier artifacts you could realistically force a bunch of -4 Ld tests to take wounds and run from the wounds. If you combo these with some spiritseers for psychic shriek, invisibility, and shrouding you could do some nasty stuff. I am just trying to figure out what unit I want to use to act as meat shields. I think grots may end up more efficient.
Hollismason wrote:Plus the army is designed around a beta strike with all that Deep Striking. Then you throw in Feel No Pain plus Furious Charge.
I think this is where much of the criticism stems from. People are still thinking they need to alpha strike with a dark eldar army and thus are not looking at the strengths of this codex. With some reserves manipulation and a solid camping element to survive turn 1/2 you are really looking at an excellent beta strike army and one in which the later they arrive the harder they become to deal with. There is really nothing but advantages to a DE to fight starting turn 2 or 3 rather than to start on turn 1 when they are weakest.
Hollismason wrote:That isn't even considering all the wonderful combos you can have with the Eldar such as Dark Reapers in Venoms or Ravagers, Deep STriking Non Scattering Wraith Guard or Fire Dragons.
I love the idea of reapers in a venom or ravager. You can DS them to get side and rear armour.
Leth wrote:Which version hits at I10, Ignores Invisibility and rends?
Totally agree. the new reavers are much better as they can now do more damage, to more different targets, and stay alive longer by staying in melee through the opponent's shooting phase and hit and run out (gaining extra movement in the process!) to shoot and charge something again...if you could give them split fire they would be god like.
Yeah I mean what is that like 200 points for a full Reaver Squad that has 4D6 ST6 HOW hits that Rend plus 12 ST4 Rending Hits.
Oh and they get Feel No Pain at some point, plus get Furious Charge possibly. ( I think they get the chart)And don't they get Combat Drugs? Yeah that's a crazy good squad, they'll absolutely beat the crap out of most things.The army also has multiple awesome formations, like seriously there are some that are just awesome.
Even the supposed "terrible" Troop choice can go in a Raider that deep strikes and fires off some insane amount of shots with Splinter Rifles and Splinter Cannons all that reroll to hit if it has a wrack.I mean seriously multiple things in the army became incredibly good. Especially the Archon's Court, Medusas, AP3 Template, yeah that's terrible.Then add in all the Instant Death , I'd hate to face this with a Tyranid army. It's a good codex, it has some like not terrible units, but then when you actually look at them it's like waaaait a second.Seriously, stop complaining about Wyches. A 4+ Dodge and most likely Feel No Pain, yeah that's terrible for 10 points.It even fits in the fluff with the idea that they like to prolong suffering and such that'd they'd be a army that starts really moving along at the 2nd turn.
Okay it's no longer a Alpha Strike army, but when you look at it from the perspective that you can manipulate reserves and even at Turn 3 the "crappy" squads have Feel No Pain. What's to gripe about. It puts even more pressure on your opponent to end things quickly because the longer your on the board the worse it gets for them. That's awesome. Then you get a beta-strike that's incredibly powerful. Being able to Deep STrike a unit where you want it and not scatter and it's not a UNIQUE item, you can take TWO HQs with it or more possibly.
mercury14 wrote: Buffed PfP and more survivable Raiders means Wyches got buffed. They just lost most of their utility against vehicles (which they never should have had in the first place).
Did you play with the 3.5 codex? Because if you had you would realize how much of a shadow wyches have been since then.
Sucking and being updated to suck marginally less but still mostly sucking isn't gona cut it for most folks so we should move on from the wych debate maybe.
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Hollismason wrote: Yeah I mean what is that like 200 points for a full Reaver Squad that has 4D6 ST6 HOW hits that Rend plus 12 ST4 Rending Hits.
I like reavers but people need to stop with the unrealistic assumptions that you will somehow base every reaver for HoW. Also your assumption is wrong because it assumes bikes can be 16 strong. Best case scenario, if somehow you manage to get a full unit based its 4d6 s6 + 8 s4
It's not that fething hard. Also that's still super good. I did look it up 9 come to almost 200 perfectly. Add in they get combat drugs, and the Feel No Pain, that's pretty good.
Hollismason wrote: It's not that fething hard. Also that's still super good. I did look it up 9 come to almost 200 perfectly. Add in they get combat drugs, and the Feel No Pain, that's pretty good.
It's a really good unit.
Actually it is pretty hard if your following the rules for assault correctly moving the closest to closest by shortest route. HoW triggers at i10 before ANY piles ins. I like the reavers a lot but I think the 12 man units are too big and a point sink. I'll be running 6 man harassment teams personally since MSU is so big right now. As I said it is way too hard trying to base 12 bikes on the charge unless your facing horde lists, it is also overkill against things like combat squads.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah plus you know it's not like you are going to be hurting for Fast Attack with up to 6 slots available with that Data Slate.
Exactly. If you make them too large then they will draw more fire then they can take. They are cheap per model but they get expensive rather fast as a unit if your not careful.
Except closest to closest is only for the first model. After that you go model by model and as long as you meet the requirements you have a lot of freedom.
Whats the math on Reavers going after a Knight Titan? Ignoring that Ion Shield and smashing it with loads of Rending HoW in it's back or side sounds like a decent possibility off the top of my head.
Full squad with 4 caltrops, you're looking at good odds of knocking of 3 hull points.
Leth wrote: Except closest to closest is only for the first model. After that you go model by model and as long as you meet the requirements you have a lot of freedom.
Also 3+ Jink is pretty significant
^^
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Elmir wrote: no, a model can only take on artifact normally (same for all the codexes right now, at least the 6th and up codexes)
"Only one of each Artefact of Cruelty may be taken per army. A model may take one of the following:"
So you can't go and stack artifacts on 1 model. Note the difference with, for instance, the arcane wargear wording:
"A model may take one of each of the following:"
I just want to point out that it doesn't actually say this.
It says ""Only one of each of the following relics may be taken per army."
There is absolutely no restriction on the amount of Relics a model can take. I've tripple checked both the Coven book and the Dark Eldar book. This restriction may exist in other Codexes, but it does not exist in this one.
Since I may have gotten a bit overly excited about the DE codex coming out and I may have (in preparation for the impending release) purchased a bunch of wych units to make a Wych Cult force I guess I may be stuck now lol.
Don't get me wrong I don't think it's a bad codex by any means, in fact I very much like it. It seems the Wych units are somewhat underpowered according to many people here. I'm not sure I buy into them being the garbage that some people make them out to be, but on my first look I'll agree they don't look to be the most competitive options. Combat drugs and PfP should help them compete, just means they're not an alpha strike force, patience (oddly enough) may be the winning factor in using them successfully.
Their use does seem a bit counter intuitive to be sure but I'm not against the challenge, in fact I'm looking forward to it. used right I think a unit of bloodbrides with a succubus (prob glaive and armor of misery I think) DS with the WWP used properly could make a big mess of some squads. I know there are better options than the Bloodbrides for melee but I got a box to convert into them so they look different than normal wyches and so I'm determined to use them. They'll be able to pump out a lot of attacks with a siren too and should be a fairly deadly unit.
I'm intrigued by the incubi with a klaivex, that seems like a pretty solid unit. Demi-klaives do seem rather overpriced for something that only gives you one extra attack but at the cost of all your attacks having a lower chance to wound.
I like the archite glaive for the succubus, seems like a solid choice for it's points cost. The agoniser I think should be dropped 5 points and I feel it'd be a fair bargain.
This is the first time I'll be playing DE and so I have no pre-7th notions of how the army was/should be. I don't play competitively either, just casual fun games with whomever will be kind enough to square off on the table with me that day. I'm rather excited to try out this force and I'm definitely not ready to write off the wych cult force yet, still seems like lotsa fun and I'll reserve an opinion on wyches as troops until I get a few matches in at the very least.
Also reavers look very appealing, solid unit on paper imo, I really wanna try hellions though, looks a lot worse on paper but meh, they might surprise me.
Leth wrote: Except closest to closest is only for the first model. After that you go model by model and as long as you meet the requirements you have a lot of freedom.
Also 3+ Jink is pretty significant
And with no fleet do to being bikes the average roll is a 7, have fun getting the lead guy in and then having everyone else magically base. I love how that lead model is super important when people are factoring in overwatch and the difficulty of making assaults, but then later it is so easy not only to base one guy for combat, but heck the whole crew will get in before pile ins. It doesn't happen.
Leth wrote: Except closest to closest is only for the first model. After that you go model by model and as long as you meet the requirements you have a lot of freedom.
Also 3+ Jink is pretty significant
^^
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Elmir wrote: no, a model can only take on artifact normally (same for all the codexes right now, at least the 6th and up codexes)
"Only one of each Artefact of Cruelty may be taken per army. A model may take one of the following:"
So you can't go and stack artifacts on 1 model. Note the difference with, for instance, the arcane wargear wording:
"A model may take one of each of the following:"
I just want to point out that it doesn't actually say this.
It says ""Only one of each of the following relics may be taken per army."
There is absolutely no restriction on the amount of Relics a model can take. I've tripple checked both the Coven book and the Dark Eldar book. This restriction may exist in other Codexes, but it does not exist in this one.
I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.
TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ
I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.
TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ
Exalted this. Thank you for clarifying which page this wording was on. I felt like I was taking crazy pills because I kept reading the p. 109 words.
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And with no fleet do to being bikes the average roll is a 7, have fun getting the lead guy in and then having everyone else magically base. I love how that lead model is super important when people are factoring in overwatch and the difficulty of making assaults, but then later it is so easy not only to base one guy for combat, but heck the whole crew will get in before pile ins. It doesn't happen.
I'm not sure what you are implying here because in my experience it happens all the time. Maybe you only assault things perpendicular to each other? I'm not sure how you are having this experience with assaults.
You typically have units standing in a line-ish formation relative to the deployment edges. They will stagger a bit, and spread out as needed depending on the weapons you are throwing at them. However, it's quite common that several models are within, say, 6 or 7 inches of each other.
Now, you probably won't get all of your units in base to base. But I think you can reasonably rely on the 3 or so that have CCs to get there. That's the lions share of you damage from HoW anyway.
I have a very big (old style) DE army with 8 raiders and a few units of everything and as i read it they can simply go back to business now!
And i personally don't like the monsters and non-DE retinue models, so i am glad that warriors, raiders, scourges, reavers and more or less all old units are back to being good.
I did buy new wracks to add to my old metal grotesques (now used as wracks) and even that seems a good buy.
I'm not sure why Warriors keep getting called 'good' by people. I don't think they're bad, but they don't seem great to me either. Maybe because Wyches don't have a purpose anymore and wracks can't be troops? So by default Warriors are the good choice now? I guess their points went down slightly but aren't we only saving like 5 points on standard load outs now. Am I missing something?
I do agree that the codex is generally a bit better now, with mainly Wyches and HQs getting nerfed and other units becoming viable, should make for some interesting lists.
What does everyone think about large squads of foot warriors? My thought is 2 squads of 20 with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters to anchor my line and provide some mid/long range anti-tank. That squad rolls out at 230 points.
I'm making a coven list, so I'm going with 6 squads of 5 wracks in venoms. I have thought that my default loadout will be an acothyst with a hex rifle and a wrack with an ossefactor in each squad. I'm really liking the chance of getting an instant death precision shot every now and then, and the rending doesn't hurt either.
Problem with running 9 fliers is our flyers are mediocre, poorly armouried and lack of hover/vector dancer really hurt them.
You can realspace without nine flyers - three are enough for sure and then you have 'hunter' and scourges and/or reavers for the other three slots.
I am currently building a test list ... I also am quite fond of the haemie grot coven detachment - fearless/FNP grots ... yes please. That was the biggest issue with grots - they ran. Now - with small squads they hit like a ton of bricks and you can take casualties without fleeing off the table. Very good little detachment
Haemie - pick your upgrades
4 grots raider/sails
5 grots raider/sails
As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.
It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.
I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because
Dark Eldar have always been a interesting army and a harder playing army in regards to actual player skill. They were like that when they first came out. It's not like a point and click army and it's become even more complicated with the chart and the playstyle.
Not sure whether anyone mentioned that, but the new Dodge grants 4++ against all Wounds inflicted in the Fight sub-phase. Ergo, against Overwatch too. 4++ and FnP during later turns seems okay to me.
Hollismason wrote: As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.
It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.
I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because
Dark Eldar have always been a interesting army and a harder playing army in regards to actual player skill. They were like that when they first came out. It's not like a point and click army and it's become even more complicated with the chart and the playstyle.
It's pretty cool mechanic.
You missed the sybarite tax for a haywire grenade.
So it 135.
Personally I don't think its worth paying 30 for the grenade and blaster. Just pay 105 and get a venom plus 5 rifle shots and get AT elsewhere where it's more efficient.
I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.
TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ
Yea sorry, I was headed to bed and a bit groggy so I when I reached for my book and could't find it I just hit post :/
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Shardar and Leth- Please read the discussion before posting. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself with regard to HoW. I was stating it was hard to set up HoW on large units, like the 12 model units that were being brought up. If you disagree and think you can easily base 12 bikes then I am genuinely happy for you. For most players, getting a unit over 6 to land all their HoW is a bike unrealistic.
You realize White Scar bike armies are popular right? They have skilled rider, Hit and run, and strength 5 HoW yet you never hear how great they are in assault and they have better stats and krack grenades to boot.
Reavers are great maelstrom grabbers, harassers and mop up units but I think taking them in large quantities is a mistake.
Loss of bladevane changes their tactical value if you used them to harass units. If you used them as mobile AT pot shots they are better.
thoughts-
3 reavers with 1 blaster before = 81pts
3 reavers with 1 blaster now = 58pts
6 reavers with 2 blasters before = 162pts
6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops before = 172pts
6 reavers with 2 cluster caltrops and 2 blasters before=202pts
6 reavers with 2 blasters now = 116pts
6 reavers with 2 blasters and 2 cluster caltrops now = 146pts
consider we can get 6 FA.
Reavers may no longer be harassers, but now can be dual threat for less cost than 1 role they had before. Before bladevaning would allow us to put hits on something without engaging it, but we gave up shooting and assault, now we can shoot and assault and benefit from both in the same turn.
I think reavers lost utility, but they gained a lot in power for a lower cost.
Reavers now have the potential to threaten armor in shooting and assault, since HoW caltrops hit the armor facing you charge you can score a significant amount of str6 hits that rend, on average you will see 1 rend on a charge with 2 caltrops. This can give a unit 2 blaster shots and average 6 str 6 hits and 1 str6+d3 hits on a vehicle in 1 turn if it can shoot and charge it. That is no joke against transports, even against non transports you are looking at 2 str8 lance hits and a follow up str 8 hit from the rend, which is no joke for 1 round. More impressively, if the vehicle is already hurt, if you drop it with the blaster shots you can now charge the squad that has to disembark from the explosion, with a good chance of annhilating them from the HoW hits alone.
I think taking a "large unit" of reavers is not very tactically sound.
With access to 6 FA per detachment if we are taking the raiders detachment, it is best to take small units of reavers. You can always run them near each other so they can combine into an assault for the effect of a large unit, and against smaller targets break up to engage multiple units. As power from pain is no longer requiring us to kill units to progress the PfP level it is not that necessary to have a large unit of reavers, unless you just want to roll a bunch of dice when you shoot/assault things, but then be wary you will be rolling a bunch of dice when you have to make jink saves...
Regarding heat leances on scourges- DSing melta works for marines because even outside of melta range its str 8. Heat lances outside of melta range are str6, yeah they have lance but against a transport or armor that is AV 11-12 you still need 5-6 to just glance, a str 8 meltagun is glancing or penning on 3+ vs av 11 and 4+ versus av 12. Consider an average roll on 2d6 is 7, so a melta gun is scoring a 15 on average in melta range, and a 11.5 on average outside melta range, a heat lance is scoring a 9.5 outside melta range, and a 13 average inside melta range. Honestly heat lances is equal to melta gun at AV13-14 and below it in quality at AV 12 or less, which is why melta works out better deep striking than scourges with heat lances. Heat lances do have a better range than meltaguns, but the range difference for being in "melta range" is only 3" ie 6" for meltagun 9" for heat lance. So there is a 3" window where heat lances get melta range over meltaguns, and against AV12 or less the average roll from a meltagun is still good enough to glance AV 12 or less with a strong chance to pen. Those 2 points of strength make a large difference.
Foot Dark Eldar-
In older editions I do not think it would be viable, with WWP I think it is viable now.
it's hard to discuss a possibly viable foot list, without knowing the specifics of the event - often they have different list building rules.
That said, I think it is possible to have a non vehicle(armor) dark eldar list that works, I am not sure if it is as competitive as a DE list that uses vehicles.
The basis of the list would be using MSUFA and elite elements to saturate the board at the start, and have some in reserve to handle threats. Then your troop elements would be large blocks of things with HQs that have WWP so you can overcome the infantry lack of mobility by being able to place them as you see fit more or less turn 2+. I think its viable, but probably a lot harder to succeed with than a "traditional" dark eldar list.
I think ultimately a few of the formations + the raiding party detachment will end up being the most competitive pure dark eldar builds. namely the coven formation that gives you scouting talos, combined with mandrakes you have a large amount of initial close target saturation. I also think the formation that is 2 wracks in venoms that get 1st turn deepstrike and score d3 VP instead of 1 if they get first blood is probably one of the best formations published. Essentially you can deepstrike and disembark the wracks on a soft unit, or softened unit, and drop 4 liquifier templates on them, if they die you just got on average 2 VPs, thats pretty damn good. Not sure if the Venoms also get the special rule for more VP or if its just the wrack units form the formation, either way its nice and gives DE a first turn response if we are going second and the enemy opened themselves or DS something themselves.
There are changes in the codex but ultimately DE are the same, they will win based on the movement phase and setup. Just now there are lot more tools to retake the edge during our movement phases.
Hollismason wrote: As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.
It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.
I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because
Dark Eldar have always been a interesting army and a harder playing army in regards to actual player skill. They were like that when they first came out. It's not like a point and click army and it's become even more complicated with the chart and the playstyle.
It's pretty cool mechanic.
You missed the sybarite tax for a haywire grenade.
So it 135.
Personally I don't think its worth paying 30 for the grenade and blaster. Just pay 105 and get a venom plus 5 rifle shots and get AT elsewhere where it's more efficient.
I think it would aid the point you are making if you had some source to back it up. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or rude in this btw, this is not an attack on you Red Corsair, I'm just trying to help out. Since the artifact thing still seems to go back and forth here is the pertinent information. On page 69 in the wargear list if you look right under artefacts of cruelty it states that you may only take one each artefact per army. The line right under that reads "A model may take one of the following:" One obviously being the operative word there. Some confusion may be stemming from page 109 in the artefact descriptions where it does say that you may only take one of each per army but it doesn't mention only one per model. Under the unit entries it also says "may take choices from:... artefacts of cruelty" and of course artefacts is lumped in with everything else with nothing to remind you that you may only take one.
TLDR page 69 has the important info, only one artefact per HQ
Yea sorry, I was headed to bed and a bit groggy so I when I reached for my book and could't find it I just hit post :/
That's probably true I don't play Dark Eldar, I play Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons, but Dark Eldar were my army in 3rd (when they were opposite eldar!!).
I actually think Kabalite True Born come in at cheaper, I think from the way I am reading it you can actually have a Venom w/ 5 of them and 4 of them have Shredders or 3 Shredders and 2 H. Weapons.
Not sure though. I'm reading it on Ubuntu and it always messes up the indents.
Tank shock only occurs during the movement phase you can't flat out. So I don't think that tactic will work. I guess with it being a fast skimmer you could maybe just keep tank shocking the unit? Dunno but it looks like tank shock is a different beast because you declare doing it instead of your normal move.
However if you were straight up on them it's possible to tank shock them , them fail their morale and your continueing move make them fall back even more. So if it's head on it looks like that may work. Declare your full move for speed. Tank shock they fall back you keep moving forward in the path their falling back in and tank schock them again and they'd fall back again automatically.
So if it was a head on tank shock, you declare X movement. You tank shock them, they fall back immediately. You continue your move it leads into them again, they fall back again.
I think they're still restricted to the whole 12 inch move
Hollismason wrote: As for warriors being good. Well first off any unit in the army that stays alive to turn 3 get's Feel No Pain, with the mass amount of ability to Deep Strike plus the ability to manipulate the Chart, then you get a situation where depending on your play style your paying 8 points a model for a model that can have Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and Eventually Fearless.
It's why this whole Wyches and X units are terrible is so weird to me. Yes, if you charge a unit on Turn 1 with your Wyches then you will probably get them killed. However if you hold off for a turn 2 or later charge they're excellent troops.
I'd say the reason Warriors became good was because of Splinter Racks affecting everything but also because
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
Haywire Grenade
Venom w/ 2 Splinter cannons
125 points
You've got to take a Sybrite to take haywire. It's 70 points for the warriors, 65 for the venom. 135 for the combo.
The part not to forget is that if you're going with realspace raiders detachment, all the troops get 5+ cover (which includes the transports).
While I like the haywire/blaster venom units, it seems to me like you're wasting your free cover save.
A raider with 10 warriors and night shields is getting a 4+ cover for free turn 1, and can start jinking turn 2 if it needs to.
It's going to continue to be my statement that people will find this to be a more difficult army to defeat than they initially think. Simply because it plays a waiting game and can keep out of range easily with it's vehicles along with winding down the turns until it for 2 to 3 turns in strikes.Which I think is pretty cool because it is actually a tactical army.Getting pretty much army wide Feel No Pain and multiple ways to increase the turn count artificially is pretty interesting.
What's the minimum cost for the Formation is what I'm wondering as it's a full turn early for Feel No Pain.
Also no one else thinks it's hilarious that this can be a Tyranid style army?
You get 6 fast attack, and can take units of 3 of your big guys. 3 Squads of Beasts and 5 to 6 Monstrous Creatures to me seems pretty sweet and no one is really like Holy gak, wait I can have Monstrous Creatures that infiltrate with a formation and I get these sweet beast packs that's kind of awesome.
Hollismason wrote: Tank shock only occurs during the movement phase you can't flat out. So I don't think that tactic will work. I guess with it being a fast skimmer you could maybe just keep tank shocking the unit? Dunno but it looks like tank shock is a different beast because you declare doing it instead of your normal move.
However if you were straight up on them it's possible to tank shock them , them fail their morale and your continueing move make them fall back even more. So if it's head on it looks like that may work. Declare your full move for speed. Tank shock they fall back you keep moving forward in the path their falling back in and tank schock them again and they'd fall back again automatically.
So if it was a head on tank shock, you declare X movement. You tank shock them, they fall back immediately. You continue your move it leads into them again, they fall back again.
I think they're still restricted to the whole 12 inch move
You have like 6-7 venoms.......Each one with their 12 inch move potentially hitting 2-3 units
Generally speaking I like the changes to the codex, though the non weapon wargear is still atrocious with few exceptions (WWP is sweet for one)
One thing I feel obligated to point out is that in the Tau and Chaos codex you are not prevented from taking multiple artefacts on a single character. I realise that we DO have that limitation (though I don't think its justified), to those saying that this is the norm, you are incorrect. It varies, and it seems the DE where hit with the nerf stick.
Overall though I've dreamt of taloi swarms for some time. Dreams do come true folks, just trust in GW....
Leth wrote: I would always take the chain snares on the venoms for the tank shock(if its 10 points or less)
Just the ability to tank shock any unit like 5-6 times in a turn.....combined with leadership reductions, make them run
Snares are only 5pts and available on venoms now. I think they are an auto include now. Tank shock will make up for a lack of OBSEC in the realspace raiders detachment and is a sound tactic on any fast vehicle with DS.
Basically DS something like blasterborn, shoot then jink in their turn. If you survived tankshock rather then snapfire, or both
Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.
Hollismason wrote: Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.
It wouldn't be because first it has the skimmer rule, then it has the Tank Shock rule. Even if your not tank shocking the only time you are allowed to move onto a model, Skimmers still cannot end their move on top of a unit and if they do they get moved so that their not.
mercury14 wrote: So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?
No, Drop Pods have special rules that allow that not to happen ever.
Skimmers have a specific rule that states if they end their move on top of another unit or a enemy unit you move them the minimum distance so that they are not on top of it.
Hollismason wrote: Waaaait a second..Oh gak I just realized after reading the tank shock rules You can declare you are tanking shocking from Deep Strike I'm pretty sure this works... gonna make a thread in YMDC.
Sounds like a mishap.
it is just a way to mishap.
tank shock does not give permission to deploy within 1" of enemy models, which is what causes the mishap.
tank shock also requires you move some distance in a set direction which is the actual tank shock and models you move through, are tank shocked if they are non vehicle non terrain things. None of this stops mishaping from the initial deployment.
even if it did work, you cannot disembark if you tank shock so probably would not be best the best idea.
Go read the YMDC, I'm arguing for it. I've stated the reasons and the rules there. People are hung up on the whole you have to move X amount the problem is Tank Shock just says you premeasure then declare how far you move.
Also if it does work it's kind of broken because you can tank shock something they fail then they run off the board.
godswildcard wrote: What does everyone think about large squads of foot warriors? My thought is 2 squads of 20 with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters to anchor my line and provide some mid/long range anti-tank. That squad rolls out at 230 points.
I'm making a coven list, so I'm going with 6 squads of 5 wracks in venoms. I have thought that my default loadout will be an acothyst with a hex rifle and a wrack with an ossefactor in each squad. I'm really liking the chance of getting an instant death precision shot every now and then, and the rending doesn't hurt either.
DE dont play well with an anchored line, they play well moving fast and free abandoning one position for another when it suits them.
Also 230 points for 4 str8 ap2 guns is pretty bad. Devistators can get all lascannons for 155.
Also 230 points for 4 str8 ap2 guns is pretty bad. Devistators can get all lascannons for 155.
Devistators don't get 16 wounds to absorb with.
-Matt
^^ This.
They also don't have OB/Sec, and can't dump 16/32 Poison shots + those 4 S8 AP 2 shots into any MC (or really any non-vehicle) that dare gets close enough.
mercury14 wrote: So now drop pod armies are going to kill all our skimmers by landing on them?
No, Drop Pods have special rules that allow that not to happen ever.
Skimmers have a specific rule that states if they end their move on top of another unit or a enemy unit you move them the minimum distance so that they are not on top of it.
Drop Pods can also not declare tank shock.
I must say I'm really intrigued by this discussion. Clever Handle has also brought it up on 3++. We really need to get this FAQed one way or another. Write your friendly GW staff, folks!
I too like the fact that now it's even better to come from reserves and play a longer battle.
It's what i did since the first codex anyway, always using the Web Portal (IMO the most unique aspect of the DE).
Just charging into battle is a one-trick pony and no-brainer style of playing i don't like anyway.
And now i can, again (and more than i the previous codex), field a large army in raiders that with speed and flexibility outsmarts the opponent.
morgoth wrote: Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.
The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.
With enough raiders, you could potentially create a barrier behind the unit you are going to tank shock, then simply tank shock and have the unit removed from play due to being unable to fall back without being within your raider.
Box them in, DS in your archon with his WWP and his -LD, tank shock and laugh as your opponent simply has to remove his units
Obviously I doubt this is any sort of competitive play, but could be hilarious fun to attempt in some friendly games.
Solar Shock wrote: With enough raiders, you could potentially create a barrier behind the unit you are going to tank shock, then simply tank shock and have the unit removed from play due to being unable to fall back without being within your raider.
Box them in, DS in your archon with his WWP and his -LD, tank shock and laugh as your opponent simply has to remove his units
Obviously I doubt this is any sort of competitive play, but could be hilarious fun to attempt in some friendly games.
This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.
Red Corsair wrote: Or, you know, you could just clip a guy not carrying an AT weapon.
Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.
Tank shocking with Dark Eldar vehicles is anecdotal at best. When you're paper thin, you don't try to get in CC range with anything.
Are you serious?
Please tell me the chances of a random S4 bloke taking down an AV10 vehicle.
I may be way too cautious.
But really what I meant is that next turn, those guys or their friends can either shoot your rear armor or charge you.
I don't think that's a great plan.
morgoth wrote: Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.
The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.
You're replying to the wrong comment, this one was about tank shocking repeatedly to cause a fall back, which is just... not that tactically sound imo.
For the fliers, sure S4 sounds like a joke, but with AV10, S6 weapons deal a lot more damage than on AV12, S7, etc. AV10 from S8 shots is like 2+ to pen, 1+ from a lascan.
Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.
This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.
The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.
With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.
Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.
AP 2 Explodes on a 6, yeah?
It's also not quite 1/3 to hit, FTR.
A Twinlinked Las has : (11÷36)(5÷6)(1÷6) = .042% chance of exploding an AV 10 flier. I'd take those odds any day of the week.
Now, granted, if you allow your opponent to amass fire power on them they can go down pretty quickly. The key is, don't. Flier almost always have the initiative (ie they get to see where everything is before they come on the field). Use it to your advantage and you can generally keep those AV 10 fliers around a lot longer then you might think.
This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.
The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.
With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.
No you don't get it.
If I tank shock in the center of that U, there is no spot for them to move out. they are deleted from the table.
Meaning a TL lascan has 1/3rd to hit, and then auto glance, pen on 2+, followed by an explodes on 4+ - I don't like those odds from something that's costed so high.
AP 2 Explodes on a 6, yeah?
It's also not quite 1/3 to hit, FTR.
A Twinlinked Las has : (11÷36)(5÷6)(1÷6) = .042% chance of exploding an AV 10 flier. I'd take those odds any day of the week.
Now, granted, if you allow your opponent to amass fire power on them they can go down pretty quickly. The key is, don't. Flier almost always have the initiative (ie they get to see where everything is before they come on the field). Use it to your advantage and you can generally keep those AV 10 fliers around a lot longer then you might think.
Lascan is AP1.
Immobilized = 33% destroyed for a flyer
TL Lascan is 11/36. it's not 1/3 it's just almost the same thing. It's just 9.3% sure.
But that's not even an anti-air weapon.
It may not be *that* fragile, and I should try it to get a better idea.
I just don't think it can be worth its point cost.
If I tank shock in the center of that U, there is no spot for them to move out. they are deleted from the table.
It has been like that since 4th.
That is what i was saying But no worries.
However, for me that requires too many raiders in order to delete 1 unit.
Im suggesting, its possible with a line of raiders behind the enemy units, so 1 raider per unit, to then have the raiders in front tank shock, have them fail their check (which would be due to the combination of lowering their leadership and a generally low leadership anyway- so something like ork boys), forcing them to fall back into the other raider and be deleted. That then only requires 2 raiders, rather than 4, but with obviously the chance it can fail due to them passing. But with it only requiring two raiders, it means you can actually do this multiple times in a turn. Its a different idea to the U shape idea.
morgoth wrote: Or, you know, you could try to find an enemy that does not have S4+, because that's enough to wreck your AV10.
The amount of S4 shooting required to take down an AV10 vehicle is silly even without any saves involved, particularly since not everyone is a Space Marine with BS 4. Now the legendary "taking down our Fliers with Bolters" thing is simply asinine. Do you know how many Bolter Snap Shots does it take to strip all 3 HPs from a Flyer? 108 Snap Shots. That's without any kind of save, like 6+ cover from the Night Shields or 4+/3+ Jink. If somebody targeted my Fliers with S4 ground weapons, I'd laugh.
But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.
This has always worked. I don't see why you need an archon, you just need to crunch his units in a U made of 3 Skimmers.
The archon is for the -LD, as in to give you better odds at actually having them fail their check. Plus if you WWP the archon you actually can have the -LD on a couple units (assuming its an AOE -LD?) so could perform the tank shock trick on multiple units at once, not simply one unit.
With your idea are you suggesting;
A triangle of skimmers around a unit of ork boys lets say, with the third skimmer, instead of it sealing the triangle, it tank shocks into the centre, then if they fail they fall back into the two raiders and are destroyed, what happens if they pass the check and have to move to the sides but cant? is that also them destroyed? But tbh with the skimmers being long and thin, the unit may be able to squeeze down the sides, I dont really know, I've never tried this before.
This works better with a venom and Reavers. Surround them with a unit of reavers, then tank shock into the middle with the venom. Pass or fail they are destroyed unless they Death Or Glory successfully.
A unit of mandrakes manning quad-gun inside Aegis Defence Line - 4 TLBS 4 shots with 2+ constant cover for 136 points minimum. Sounds quite awesome for me.
A unit of mandrakes manning quad-gun inside Aegis Defence Line - 4 TLBS 4 shots with 2+ constant cover for 136 points minimum. Sounds quite awesome for me.
Stick an objective on there too and camp the game out But yeh mandrakes are looking sweeeet! A couple units infiltrating onto objectives, with a nice 2+ cover save, pushing out baleblasts while the rest of your army DS's to where its needed. I think DE have a real nice tactical codex this time round; if you want to play that way, with plenty of options to play a longer game. I mean even holding venoms at splinter cannon range in order to soften the enemy for a turn or two before coming in for a 2nd or 3rd turn strike with your now FNP, FC units.
But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.
No, they are still laughable. You need 43.2 BS4 shots to do a single hull point, if I don't jink (night shields for 6+ cover).
Fired at my infantry, those bolters would do 19.2 wounding hits.
I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.
Leth wrote: Which version hits at I10, Ignores Invisibility and rends?
I would go with that version.
Well, the other one hits at initiative "movement phase", and also ignores invisibility, though I will agree it doesn't rend.
I like the new bikes better, but I do think the old bladevanes were better as a stand alone thing.
I just like the new bikes because I like assaulting bikes, and old bikes were *not* that.
But when your flyer has 1-2 HP of damage on it already bolters suddenly become a threat.
No, they are still laughable. You need 43.2 BS4 shots to do a single hull point, if I don't jink (night shields for 6+ cover).
Fired at my infantry, those bolters would do 19.2 wounding hits.
I specifically "complain" to my opponents that S4 can actually kill my flyers in the hopes that they do try and shoot them down with it.
Ha ha, I love adding mind games to 40k... You sir, are a scholar!
Careful who you try to mind game. Guy told me the same thing so I fired my 30 shoota boy mob at one ( 56 shoota shots and 3 rokkits) he laughed and said it was a trick and didn't jink.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Careful who you try to mind game. Guy told me the same thing so I fired my 30 shoota boy mob at one ( 56 shoota shots and 3 rokkits) he laughed and said it was a trick and didn't jink.
He lost his flyer.
Mind tricks don't work on orks, only teef.
That, I'd jink against. And I'd still be happy you chose to inflict half as many hits.
The problem is, if there's a substantial quantity of S4 shooting coming your way, you have to consider a jink if you only have 1-2 HP left. I've unfortunately lost a couple Crimson Hunters that way by not jinking, then S4 gets a glance or two and you have no save.
Yes on average it takes a fair number of S4 shots to land a glance, however what people need to realize is that it's a low bell curve so 1-2 glances aren't terribly unlikely given 30 or so shots.
Is there anyway possible to scout move or infiltrate a Raider or Venom. I've not seen one. This is including Eldar. Is there a Eldar character that may allow this. Just curious.
Hollismason wrote: Is there anyway possible to scout move or infiltrate a Raider or Venom. I've not seen one. This is including Eldar. Is there a Eldar character that may allow this. Just curious.
There is the strategic warlord trait.
Also if you play infiltrating IC can infiltrate the units they are attached to then Illic Nightspear and Karandras can both infiltrate.
Can Dark Eldar field blobs? I don't think they're a deathstar army, primarily since they lack psykers for shennanigans, but a maximum strength unit of 15 Bloodbrides (or 20 Trueborn) led by a Succubus, Archon, or both with Webway Portal and/or Infiltrate would be ... interesting, albeit awfully fragile for their points.
For example, in my for-the-heck-of-it Pretty Killers list, I tried this:
Archon, Succubus, & Bloodbrides (the Arch-Succublob): 555 points
Archon w/ Animus Vitae, Huskblade (or maybe Agoniser), Haywire Grenades, Shadow Field, and (of course) Webway Portal.
Succubus w/ Helm of Spite (iz fashionable hat), Archite Glaive, & Haywire Grenades.
15 Bloodbrides, including Syren w/ Agoniser and 3 models w/ Shardnet & Impaler
I'm sure that particular example is flawed (e.g. forgot the Soul Trap), but y'all get the idea. Is there a version of this that can be made to work?
I have actually been considering some DE based deathstars. I am not convinced yet I have any worth taking but my initial ones to test are;
*Archon Court 4 medusae+4 Sslyth+Archon w/ WWP, shadow field, huskblade, and armour of misery. Excellent anti infantry punch when you first land and pretty good melee. Again decent price tag.
*Haemy+Grots; WWP, 4 Liquifiers, armour of misery, and crucible. Pretty good anti infantry damage and melee. Reasonable price tag.
With forgeworld;
*6-12 medusae+Archon w/ WWP+Tantalus to land then flame something dead.
With eldar;
*5 Spiritseers + archon w/ WWP, Shadow field, Armour of Misery + Irillyth + 12 clawed fiends; this is my re-imagined beast pack, the key components are 5 Lv2 telepathy psykers to hopefully get invisibility and to put down psychic shrieks, hit and run, the ability to either scout w/ night fight or DS with no scatter. I am still not convinced even this has what it takes to make an effective deathstar.
*Archon Court 4 medusae+4 Sslyth+Archon w/ WWP, shadow field, huskblade, and armour of misery. Excellent anti infantry punch when you first land and pretty good melee. Again decent price tag.
umm, 5 T3 models, 4 T5 models, unit is T3 against shooting.
Always have as many Sslyth as you have T3 models to ensure you are T5 against shooting.
Cambonimachine wrote: Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.
Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?
Cambonimachine wrote: Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.
Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?
10D3 wall of death?
Depends what charges, its 20 hits on average, so 6 wounds against marines, 3 wounds against T5 to 6, and no wounds against T7+ but that's 500pts worth of Grotes. And without a rule like battle focus the WWP drop doesn't make it really worth it, especially at 50ppm + haemy w/WWP.
I'd rather spend the 505pts on 10 D-scythe wraithguard and Iyanden spiritseer with spirit stones. Much more effective, guaranteed ap2, causes instant death and can hurt tanks.
Oh see I was doing it purely for the CC punch. and its only 350pts of grots which is still an absurd number given how much other stuff i could get for it. Never said it was competitive... actually come to think of it can you even fit 10 grot bases +1 under a pie plate?
I'd rather spend the 505pts on 10 D-scythe wraithguard and Iyanden spiritseer with spirit stones. Much more effective, guaranteed ap2, causes instant death and can hurt tanks.
But they are also much easier to wipe off the map, and not nearly as punchy in CC.
I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.
I think these are the rumoured formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP 2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.
Otherwise that's a 2k formation.
Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.
I played another list with Wyches last night and they generally did well. My oppponent was Necrons (3x3 wraith list, 1500 pts). I couldn't roll a 3+ jink save for anything so my Raiders all wrecked by turn two and I took some heavy casualties, however I was able to take the fight to him and keep him fully occupied while I dominated maelstrom objectives. I would have won except on turn 5 he drew "destroy any unit", "destroy any vehicle", and 'destroy any flyer" and my Razorwing Jetfighter was on his side of the map with 1 HP left, *boom*, 3 VPs for him to get the Draw.
I ran two 5x Wyches (naked) w/Venom, and a 8x Wych, Hekatrix, haywire, Hydra w/Raider unit. All three of the units made it into CC, although the large unit got pinned in a vehicle wreck turn two and didn't make it into CC until turn four, however it still had 7 models in it. The combat drug was +1 attack so they were killing 'Crons.
The large Wych squad assaulted a unit of 3x Wraiths that were eating Kabalites on an objective and tore them up. It was turn 4 so they were S4 with furious charge and wiped the wraiths (with a little Kabalite help) after just two turns. 29 S4 attacks (plus a few reroll to wound) on the charge from just seven Wyches... Only one wraith survived I6 and then it died too on my opponent's turn which was perfect. No Wyches even died, it was easy.
The other wych squads did okay but had lesser results. One fled combat against immortals on the second turn and failed to regroup for two turns. The other won its CC against a 5x warrior squad after a sweep but then got shot up and failed morale too. I think the Hekatrix might turn out to be important for me in order to get that Ld point. It was cool seeing Wyches get shot by AP5 guns and then survive with FNP though. When they get a 5+ cover and 5+ FNP they're actually somewhat durable against small arms fire.
It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)
Frozocrone wrote: It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)
So assault marines shouldnt have Krak Grenades?
I think the issue is that haywire grenades are too good. They should have been made 4+ to glance, no chance to pen and then still 1-2ppm and availible to whole squads.
Frozocrone wrote: It's nice to see Wyches are performing well, considering they lost their haywire Grenades (should never had have it imo, they are Cc fighters fluff wise)
I think Wyches are fine and that most of the complaining about them is based on the Haywire thing. Also combat drugs and the new PfP are major factors in their performance and folks haven't done a good job considering them when they complain about Wyches.
Also consider that without haywire costing 2 ppm, you basically now get an extra Wych.
I presume that Wyches really want to start in Reserve and Deep Strike so they (a) enter CC with at least FNP and (b) have less time to get shot up?
I'm impressed that five-Wych units were so effective. On the other end of the spectrum, anyone tried a maximum size blob of 15 (using WWP since they wouldn't fit in a transport)? I'm curious what the best employment is for Wych units of various sizes: 5 in Venom, 8-10 in Raider, 11-15 with WWP.
I think the issue is that haywire grenades are too good. They should have been made 4+ to glance, no chance to pen and then still 1-2ppm and availible to whole squads.
Krak Grenades are not Haywire grenades, and should not be compared to them. True to SM credo, kraks are "ok" against a lot of things. Haywire is phenomenal against one thing. No reason for an infantry-killing CC squad to also delete vehicles on contact (regardless of AV). Leave that to Scarabs.
Cambonimachine wrote: Once i get the Covens 'dex next payday I'll look again, but im theoryhammering the idea of x10grots with a haemy w/ wwp for shenanigans.
Still not sure why everyone is all about the liquifiers though? I'm personally not a fan of the variable ap and s3 just seems a bit weak to me?
I don't own any Grots either, but this is an idea I was thinking of as well. I also wasn't going to put Liquifiers on them, they don't seem at all worth the points. These guys naked with a Haemy seem like they'll be nasty, particularly if you can get a Cronos in range to boost their FNP.
I plan to take 4 Kabalite squads in upgraded Raiders to kill infantry with mass TL Poison, 2x5 Scourges with Heat Lances as TACAT units, 2 Razorwing Jetfighters and 1 Voidraven Bomber for a mixture of flying AI/AT that can help with enemy FMCs/Flyers and two DL Ravagers for even more AT. Now add an Archon with Blaster and the Helm of Spite in a dedicated Venom to gain some more of AT/AI and the anti-Psyker bonus. Not a tournament winning list, but seems like a comprehensive TAC army to me.
Hey Sydney, I tried 15 Wyches with a Haemi w/ WWP last weekend against IG. It worked well. I think I lost about 4-5 in the enemy shooting phase, but after that they were able to kill an Infantry Squad and a Scions Command Squad. The thing that seemed to help them is this new codex gives us a lot of target saturation, and our Beta Strike is amazing now.
Drake118 wrote: Hey Sydney, I tried 15 Wyches with a Haemi w/ WWP last weekend against IG. It worked well. I think I lost about 4-5 in the enemy shooting phase, but after that they were able to kill an Infantry Squad and a Scions Command Squad. The thing that seemed to help them is this new codex gives us a lot of target saturation, and our Beta Strike is amazing now.
How did you only lose 4-5? I suppose you DSed in and then ran to avoid getting a pie plate in the face, but what if your run move fails? Then even if you get a good run, you are still bunched up for flamers+pie or they can rapid fire you with lasguns. IG are the last army I would want to DS wyches against.
SisterSydney wrote:I presume that Wyches really want to start in Reserve and Deep Strike so they (a) enter CC with at least FNP and (b) have less time to get shot up?
I'm impressed that five-Wych units were so effective. On the other end of the spectrum, anyone tried a maximum size blob of 15 (using WWP since they wouldn't fit in a transport)? I'm curious what the best employment is for Wych units of various sizes: 5 in Venom, 8-10 in Raider, 11-15 with WWP.
mercury14 wrote:I ran two 5x Wyches (naked) w/Venom, and a 8x Wych, Hekatrix, haywire, Hydra w/Raider unit. All three of the units made it into CC, although the large unit got pinned in a vehicle wreck turn two and didn't make it into CC until turn four, however it still had 7 models in it. The combat drug was +1 attack so they were killing 'Crons.
It was cool seeing Wyches get shot by AP5 guns and then survive with FNP though. When they get a 5+ cover and 5+ FNP they're actually somewhat durable against small arms fire.
I'm assuming mercury ran his wyches starting on the board based upon him saying about how quickly he failed his jink saves. But i think different uses will see different deployments.
5 man wych units in venoms starting on the board could be good for applying initial pressure through boosting up the board, or flanking.
they could also be useful DSing in turn 2-3 to act as a back-up unit, like how mercury used them to wipe those wraiths. a sorta DSing counter charge unit, as FNP and FC will make them rather nasty. You could potentially DS them next to a unit that you know is going to get charged next turn, acting as both a dissuader and clean-up unit.
I think the larger blob is better for a later turn WWP, turn 3+ would see them with considerable survivability and could be used to tie up a powerful unit while you spend the last couple turns taking objectives and clearing up elsewhere.
i'd also be interested in whether anyone has DS'ed or WWP'd in wyches.
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
Might be a good way to get an extra VP. Imagine, 24 Posion shots + 2 Obesfactors on turn 1 to finish something off(you can use other units to soften up a unit first). Of course if you go second, you might already give up first blood being DE.
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 Talos is 600 points. If you could include 1 cronos and 4 talos would be better for the 4+ FNP. Still this thing is going to be a lot of fun. Perhaps not competetive, but fun.
Yeah I started two Wych squads in Venoms and the 8x Wych squad in a Raider (obviously), and on the map.
Dark Eldar are not a reserve army and PfP doesn't change that IMO. Yes a single unit in a WWP can erase a high-value enemy unit so there's utility there, however in general we want all hands on deck, attacking right from turn one. Being in reserve doesn't keep us safe, it just gives our opponents a simpler choice of who to shoot at on the board.
I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.
I think these are the rumoured formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP 2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.
Otherwise that's a 2k formation.
Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.
its a formation for large point games, you cant have units count as from more than one detachment so it is indeed all the units from each detachment in total.
there is a similar thing for tyranids, with the squads all at min sized and no upgrades on anything it comes to ~2500pts
the option 3 thing is very good, but if you plan to alpha strike turn 2 you could end up losing if you go first, you drop your wrack venoms, if opponent kills them at end of game turn 1 (both player turns 1) you lose.
I know they're were some nasty formations in that, that can be turned into Deathstars.
Specifically that unit of Haemy and Talos or something like that.
I think these are the rumoured formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP 2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
That's the part that stands out to me for some abuse issues. Also that's like a ridiculous amount of points I bet anything that the all 6 formations is a bit different and meets the requirements of all so like if you have 3 Wrack units then you've met the 2 Wrack requirement of the other formation or something.
Otherwise that's a 2k formation.
Number 3 though let's you set nothing on the board so you can basically have an alpha strike on turn two, dunno if people noticed that. So play with that formation and the Real Space Raiders and drop in on everyone. You could even just set a Comm Relay nearby let them drop in and run over to it so you can reroll reserves.
its a formation for large point games, you cant have units count as from more than one detachment so it is indeed all the units from each detachment in total.
there is a similar thing for tyranids, with the squads all at min sized and no upgrades on anything it comes to ~2500pts
the option 3 thing is very good, but if you plan to alpha strike turn 2 you could end up losing if you go first, you drop your wrack venoms, if opponent kills them at end of game turn 1 (both player turns 1) you lose.
2120 pts, with no upgrades, and as small as you can get on every squad.
That's a bit disappointing. As it's a very very good formation.That's #3 w/ the 2 Wracks in Venoms that deep strike on turn 1 really get's me as probably the most strikingly good.Especially considering the Beta Strike ability of the army but also because of the First Blood, getting D3 victory points on Turn 1 , plus being able to fufill an Objective is pretty great. The Haemy plus Talos and Chronos is interesting because it can deep strike ( Pretty sure Haemy can get a WWP). I think that may have been missed.
Also that Detachment is amazing, it's all Elites which is really interesting as it changes some huge things for the army.
It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.
SisterSydney wrote: Does the Coven supplement have any new units or wargear? Or just formations (meh) and missions (bleh)?
It has it's own artifact table, own Warlord table, own PfP table, own CAD, and, yes, a bunch of formations. The CAD itself is a pretty big difference though...
It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.
You talking about the Covenite Coterie?
It's actually more dramatic then that. 2 HQ 2 Elite are compulsory, and 4 more HQ, 6 more elite, and 4 HS are optional. So you can run as many as 6 HQs, 8 Elites, and 4 HS. Pretty interesting options, there.
Also, all CADs/Formations get the -1 Leadership to all units within 12" rule. I could see some interesting combos with that and the core DE book.
After reading everyones ideas especially hollismason, who pointed out some powerful unique traits that only Dark Eldar have. I am going to start a new Dark Eldar army for sure, this codex gets two thumbs up from me! At the moment I am thinking about making a durable Dark Eldar list! Durable and Dark Eldar normally are not in the same sentence but I really think it is possible with this new codex, and with Power of Pain you benefit for making a durable list.
The list I am thinking about using will have Cronos with Spirit Probes and Urien Rakarth to give units a 5+ feel no pain save on the first turn and a 4+ save after that. The Cronos unit and beastmasters units with Urien Rakarth will start on the field, the monstrous creature unit has 9 toughness 7 wounds, all with a 3+ armor save, and a 4+ feel no pain save that is extremely durable even wave serpent spam will cry out loud facing that. To protect the weak vehicles I will keep them in reserve, I will use an Autarch's path of strategy to bring in units on a 2+. The important vehicles will have nightshields to give them a 3+ cover save. Turn 2 is when all the units will have a feel no pain save that can be a 4+ depending on the positioning, and if one of those wave serpents used their shields a portal with fire dragons will hopefully destroy it. Have your vehicles open fire and hopefully your beastmasters units are in charge range if not it is ok, because turn 3 you get to take advantage of furious charge.If done correctly you can have furious charge wyches, not alot of damage but I am looking at the durability of 4+ invulnerable followed by a 4+ feel no pain save.
I am focusing on thinking of ways to make Dark Eldar list more durable so we can take advantage of our late game buffs.
CKO wrote: After reading everyones ideas especially hollismason, who pointed out some powerful unique traits that only Dark Eldar have. I am going to start a new Dark Eldar army for sure, this codex gets two thumbs up from me! At the moment I am thinking about making a durable Dark Eldar list! Durable and Dark Eldar normally are not in the same sentence but I really think it is possible with this new codex, and with Power of Pain you benefit for making a durable list.
I'm not building a durable DE list, but I do want some durability. DE units are much more specialized than any other army (they are what eldar should have been), it's nice to have something to force your opponents decisions.
I'll be running 3 beast packs, each with 10 khymera and 2 beast masters. It's only 120 points each, and shows up with T4 5+ invul and 40 S4 attacks on the charge.
It brings the body count up, and pushes forward very fast very early.
mercury14 wrote: Regarding the formation where you put a Haemi, Talos, and Cronos in one unit, is there any reason the Haemi can't leave it? Or another IC can't join?
It specifically states that that cannot in fact happen on both points.
Also 5 Talos in one unit even if it is a expensive is pretty amazing because they get scout which of course is amazing but it's exactly like the Chaos Murderpack where 1 Invisibility spell affects the whole unit.
SisterSydney wrote: Does the Coven supplement have any new units or wargear? Or just formations (meh) and missions (bleh)?
It has it's own artifact table, own Warlord table, own PfP table, own CAD, and, yes, a bunch of formations. The CAD itself is a pretty big difference though...
It's a 1 HQ , 2 ELites, and then I think 3 more elites.
You talking about the Covenite Coterie?
It's actually more dramatic then that. 2 HQ 2 Elite are compulsory, and 4 more HQ, 6 more elite, and 4 HS are optional. So you can run as many as 6 HQs, 8 Elites, and 4 HS. Pretty interesting options, there.
Also, all CADs/Formations get the -1 Leadership to all units within 12" rule. I could see some interesting combos with that and the core DE book.
Woah, wait you mean you can take 6 HQs? I'll have to look over that , cause that's hilarious if you can take 6 Courts of the Archon, unfortunately you won't get the later turn bonuses though as you'll have fearless I believe.
puts a lot of eggs in 1 basket though.
)
--- well you cant roll that and the average number has nothing to do with the chance to get a specific roll. The chances to get +T is just 1/6
