Jimsolo wrote:
Matt, it's starting to seem like you aren't really interested in Dark Eldar anymore.
Do you have any ideas on how to make thinks work, rather than why nothing will work?
It seems like you've been putting a lot of thought into it, so I'd be interested in any constructive insights you may have come to.

It's not that DE don't work, it's that CwE work better, for less points, with few exceptions.

Tau and marker lights really put a huge damper on DE infantry.
Loss of hit and run and big beast packs has hindered that build.
Mass D shooting neuters coven lists.
I see a lot of options for a Craft world with some DE support, but not a lot working as well the other way, and very little working without some ally support.

I have been wondering about an Eldar CAD with wave serpents as fast attack, housing grotesques inside. Wave serpents still provide decent firepower, and you might be able to soften up the enemy before unloading the DE payload. This would give you some survivability until you get a little higher up on the pain chart. The extra 2 guys that can be transported are important, as 4 grotesques don't seem to get it done, but 5 with characters, or 6 without seems like a good number.

Hmm. That could be nasty. Bit pricey in points. How much do wave serpents do in this edition? (At 5-6 grots, I'm wondering if a Webway portal might be more efficient than a WS.)

Could you take a Grotesquerie with WS's as transports? The uber-grots might make that even more attractive.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hmm. That could be nasty. Bit pricey in points. How much do wave serpents do in this edition? (At 5-6 grots, I'm wondering if a Webway portal might be more efficient than a WS.)

Could you take a Grotesquerie with WS's as transports? The uber-grots might make that even more attractive.

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

Add Autarch with Banshee Mask to deny Overwatch and, let's say, Shard of Anaris (Str 5 Rending, Fearless). A Farseer could buff with all sorts of psychic powers. Hammerhand would be fun for sure.

Hey, another not-quite-deathstar idea!

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Stock, it's 110 points.
Cheapest webway guy is 95, and does nothing other than be a webway.
For the points, I'd rather be in the serpent. You cannot disembark and assault, but you can't webway and assault either.
I'd even consider it with incubi, if you can get psyker support to keep them alive.

-Matt

Add Autarch with Banshee Mask to deny Overwatch and, let's say, Shard of Anaris (Str 5 Rending, Fearless). A Farseer could buff with all sorts of psychic powers. Hammerhand would be fun for sure.

Hey, another not-quite-deathstar idea!

If you're doing this - which is a great plan - then I think you'd be better off in an open-topped transport. If a scary combat unit pops up next to your opponent and he knows he can't overwatch it, every gun will be turned at that unit in his shooting phase. Yes, your opponent may be able to blow up the transport, but considering the possibility of being able to charge out of it completely unharmed, I think it's worth it, especially on models that hit hard but don't get hit hard.

I agree,

An OT transport would be very useful. Even if you didn't bring a WWP caddy. DS in a raider behind some cover/a useful position then even when he does use all of his weapons to blow you sky high your not likely to take many wounds with the incubi. If you had incubi in a wave serpent that couldn't be overwatched they'd become pretty high priority for leaving on your side of the board

So I played a game against my ELdar friend Saturday night. we were playing 2k points and he was using the WK(sun cannon setup) and WG with D cannons. And the Aspect formation(FD,DR, SH, +1 BS) no bikes this time.

As for the other things, He had rangers, SS , WS , farseer ,Spiritseer and guardians with a ML and Warlock and a Crimson hunter.

We were playing Maelstrom , Contact lost(the one that you get a Tac card for every Objective you control).

He went first and Nightfighting was in play.

Turn 1 Was looking grim. He was able to get 6 points right off the bat, and my units took some hits. My Ravager got a lucky shot at the WS and Pen and Exploded it, Killing 3 Fire dragons inside. and my venom was able to kill 4 WG(he rolled poorly on saves).

Turn 2-5 was just grim for me(so it seemed). My Reaver jetbikes were the only thing keeping me alive(on the field)
By turn 3 i have 6 units on the field and 2 man unit of Warriors. But to my surprise (and his) those warriors had the killing blow and the WK and won the game by killing the Wraithlord on turn 4 to win the game and table him.

The rolling gods were very cruel this game. I failed every single LD test I took, and only be cause of 1 shot luck, I won the game. If the Wraithlord and the WK lived, then I wouldve lost the game 19vp to 7-8. I dont have my list on me, But I can post it later.

DakkaLance id love to hear about how the units performed outside of the lucky/unlucky rolls. For example the hawks and the dark reapers? surely the DR's were pretty brutal considering they can ignore jink? and most of your force was relying on this?

How were the WG? painful? how did you deal with them? sit at range and shoot poison?

Solar Shock wrote:
DakkaLance id love to hear about how the units performed outside of the lucky/unlucky rolls. For example the hawks and the dark reapers? surely the DR's were pretty brutal considering they can ignore jink? and most of your force was relying on this?

How were the WG? painful? how did you deal with them? sit at range and shoot poison?

The reapers Did well, But I used my bikes to rush them, so around turn 3 I had them killed. I was using the RSR detachment, so that helped first turn. Most of my units were out of LOS , or had something to hide behind to provide a cover save.

First turn he shot the Raider I had behind cover and exploded it, killing 5 wyches inside. T2 he shot at a ravager but only managed to strip 2 HP but killed it later turn 3. My reavers killed them turn 3 after killing the rangers.

The WG were unable to do much since I killed 4 with 1 venom and the last remaining killed 1 model part of my Court. But was later killed by my void mine along with his farseer and spiritseer.

The Hawks DS behind my Objective near my board edge , and killed 5-6 mandrakes that were holding the objective. But were killed by the remaining drakes and a venom later on.

Overall my bikes squads killed SS,guardians, DR and rangers. The only reason I was able to table him was because of the 2 falling back warriors lol


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With the way we were deployed, I was basically stuck on my deployment. He was slowly pushing me back and had 3 objectives at all times. The bikes speed was what helped clear his back field support, and surround him

If you could play again what would you want to take more of? The reavers sounded pretty effective, how many did you play? Do post your list if you get chance

How do people USE Reavers? The only two things mine ever do is suck and die.

I love my reavers! I rush them up with the catrops and try to Ty up and troops that can threaten my formation or to hit obj campers. I try to keep the groups low so 3-5 per squad, maybe two to three squads, of course they are only part of my fast attacks cause I almost always run RSR to add in my jet, a group of scourges and soon more hellions haha

So how are your Reavers not getting murdelated in the first round of CC? Mine have never survived two rounds of combat, ever.

 Jimsolo wrote:
So how are your Reavers not getting murdelated in the first round of CC? Mine have never survived two rounds of combat, ever.

With Caltrops and Bladevanes at I10, and then their own attacks at I6, there shouldn't be much left of whatever you're assaulting to hit back very hard. You win combat and sweep, or you Hit and Run out to charge in again and Bladevane them again. You should never sit in combat for multiple rounds with Reavers, their strength is in their Hammer of Wrath and the survivability provided by Skilled Rider when not in combat.

I deploy my Reavers behind BLoS so they don't get shot at. Or, alternately, they may be targed by one or two units T1, but there's so many Raider gunboats and other stuff around that the enemy simply can't kill everything. Enforcing (and confusing) target priority has been becoming one of my main tactics.

I usually circle the Reavers about the enemy during the first turns to get a good position. Again, the core of my army gets into a firefight whilst the Reavers get to hide... until they get the opportunity to strike and BAM! Rending HoW.

That was exactly what happened during one of my recent tournament games. After owning a Chaos Relic Predator they were able to charge a Biker Sorc and his meatshield unit of Cultists. Cultists vanished quickly and the Sorc required a H&R + second charge to strip the last Wound off him. With that, I scored Slay the Warlord, Kingslayer, and 2 VPs for grabbing the objective marker that was there.

Another game they rescued a poor Farseer that got charged by a unit of Termagants and a Carnifex (desperately needed to grab an objective over there). The Windriders protecting her died, but she made her 4++ and survived. The unit of Reavers that was just next to the fight charged and tore the Carnifex apart just with Rending HoW. They had the +1 Attack drug, so when they get to CC they wiped out the Termagants with 24 attacks at Init 6.

Long story short: move from cover to cover (preferably one that blocks line of sight) until you get to charge. ???. Profit.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I deploy my Reavers behind BLoS so they don't get shot at. Or, alternately, they may be targed by one or two units T1, but there's so many Raider gunboats and other stuff around that the enemy simply can't kill everything. Enforcing (and confusing) target priority has been becoming one of my main tactics.

I usually circle the Reavers about the enemy during the first turns to get a good position. Again, the core of my army gets into a firefight whilst the Reavers get to hide... until they get the opportunity to strike and BAM! Rending HoW.

That was exactly what happened during one of my recent tournament games. After owning a Chaos Relic Predator they were able to charge a Biker Sorc and his meatshield unit of Cultists. Cultists vanished quickly and the Sorc required a H&R + second charge to strip the last Wound off him. With that, I scored Slay the Warlord, Kingslayer, and 2 VPs for grabbing the objective marker that was there.

Another game they rescued a poor Farseer that got charged by a unit of Termagants and a Carnifex (desperately needed to grab an objective over there). The Windriders protecting her died, but she made her 4++ and survived. The unit of Reavers that was just next to the fight charged and tore the Carnifex apart just with Rending HoW. They had the +1 Attack drug, so when they get to CC they wiped out the Termagants with 24 attacks at Init 6.

Long story short: move from cover to cover (preferably one that blocks line of sight) until you get to charge. ???. Profit.

This is how I was able to get the Dark reapers. I Basically I was chain assaulting his units to get to the reapers. It worked out well since I only lost 3 bikes per squad.


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Here is the list I put together(Was not expecting this list to do as well as it did)

RSR

HQ-Archon with Huskblade,blast pistol,soul trap,shadow field
Court-2 medus 2 Ur-ghul
-Venom , extra splinter cannon

Urien

Troops
10x Warriors , blaster, Slinter cannon
-Raider ,DL,Nightfields,Splinter racks

9x Wyches
Hydra guantlets, Hektrix with AG
(urien goes here)
-Raider,DL with Nightshields

FA
6x Reavers, 2 Blasters 2 CC
6 Reavers, 2 Heatlance, 2 CC
3x Reavers , 1 Blaster, 1 CC
Razorwing, 2 DL, Splinter cannon.

Elites
10 Mandrakes

HS
2 Ravagers, 3 DL , Night shields
1 Voidraven, 2 DL , 4 Shatterfield, Nightshields.

This is the list I put together in about 10 mins lol

I normally don't like using mathhammer as the first diagnostic tool, but I'm curious whether or not my luck is just really bad, or other peoples' is just really good.

Assuming a 3-man squad, fresh out, charging a MEQ unit. You've got six shots, four hits, two wounds, .66 unsaved wounds.

Bladevanes give us 2 S4 hits, which have a 1/2 chance to wound (1 wound), 1/3 chance at a Rend, and 2/9 chance of an additional wound. So, .55 wounds.

Caltrops cause 3.5 hits on average. 5/6 chance to wound (1/5 is a rend, 4/15 chance for a wound otherwise) leaves us with .7 rends and .93 wounds getting through.

Regular attacks have a 1/2 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, and 1/3 chance to get through. So 9 attacks with a 1/18 chance to get a wound through gives us another .5 wounds.

After all is said and done, the Reavers accomplish (on average, assuming they didn't have to Jink or suffer casualties from overwatch) 3.34 wounds. Not enough to wipe a squad. Then the marines get to counter, and if there's a sergeant in there you're hosed.

Even if you break the marines they don't run, so you have to either H&R, which means the unit you just bailed on shoots you again next turn and then charges YOU, or you stick around in combat and get torn into tiny, bloody pieces.

Did I make an error somewhere?

Ok, I dont let math hammer try to Determine whether or not a unit will be effective. I always "glance" it. Just look at it, and get an idea how effective it will be, Dont let the number confuse you. MMV, so you just got to judge it best you can. I look at my stats and what I need and if it looks decent enough, then why not give it a try. Very rarely have the rolls been statistically correct, so ive just given up on math hammer and just wing it and see how well my results are with my rolls.

Alot of players depend too much on it too much, and I feel that is more of a Con than pro. Dont over think your toy soliders, just play them and look at them as a whole. Hard to explain, but I just know it has been working for me so far.



Keep the bikes on the flanks and let them hunt units in the back field. Divide & conquer, etc.

Reavers are some of the best units in all of 40K. Jim - you're forgetting to factor in Power from Pain and Combat Drugs to their value. And I don't find that MEQ beat them in CC at all. I kill them on I10 and then what's left only wounds with 25% of its attacks. Then I get 5+ and FnP.

I run Reavers in six-Elf units with 2x Caltrops. That gives them enough killing power to slaughter MEQ, take (out wounded) MCs, vehicles, etc. Also I run Heat Lances on them sometimes (but not always). They're great at softening up targets before the assault or helping the rest of my list's blasters/DLs pop a transport so that I can assault the squishy insides.

Here's what I do... Turn one they all go flat-out and move into my opponents' backfield while the rest of my list rushes. 3+ Jinking Reavers are pretty durable and the pressure they provide gives my opponents some hard choices to make. This move makes my opponent shoot at my Venoms/trueborn/etc much less. Also this is a great way to run Harlequin Skyweavers (esp with re-rollable jink), just flat-out them with Zephyrglaives into your opponents' backfield with the Reavers and nobody shoots the Harlies.

Turn two I assault all the Reavers and Skyweavers. It's a massacre.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I normally don't like using mathhammer as the first diagnostic tool, but I'm curious whether or not my luck is just really bad, or other peoples' is just really good.

Assuming a 3-man squad, fresh out, charging a MEQ unit. You've got six shots, four hits, two wounds, .66 unsaved wounds.

Bladevanes give us 2 S4 hits, which have a 1/2 chance to wound (1 wound), 1/3 chance at a Rend, and 2/9 chance of an additional wound. So, .55 wounds.

Caltrops cause 3.5 hits on average. 5/6 chance to wound (1/5 is a rend, 4/15 chance for a wound otherwise) leaves us with .7 rends and .93 wounds getting through.

Regular attacks have a 1/2 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, and 1/3 chance to get through. So 9 attacks with a 1/18 chance to get a wound through gives us another .5 wounds.

After all is said and done, the Reavers accomplish (on average, assuming they didn't have to Jink or suffer casualties from overwatch) 3.34 wounds. Not enough to wipe a squad. Then the marines get to counter, and if there's a sergeant in there you're hosed.

Even if you break the marines they don't run, so you have to either H&R, which means the unit you just bailed on shoots you again next turn and then charges YOU, or you stick around in combat and get torn into tiny, bloody pieces.

Did I make an error somewhere?

Your math sounds fine, I think the issue is you're assuming a 3-man Reaver squad assaulting a 5 man Tac squad. I don't know of anyone who runs 3 Reavers. If you're taking Caltrops over Heat Lances, you're taking 6 and getting 2 Caltrops. So just double your results from before and you'll be surprised at how much damage they will do. Mercury14 was correct, the Combat Drugs table and Power from Pain both make them even better. How he runs his bikes is my exact tactic as well. Turbo-boost right where you want to assault, and take your 3+ jink. You're getting a minimum of 6+ FNP if you hit assault turn 2, and 5+ FNP every round after that.

3-man Reaver squad with a single Cluster Caltrop costs 63 pts. What did you expect of such a tiny unit? Double that, flank the enemy/flat-out into B-LoS, 3+ Jink if need be and assault.

Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

I had a ton of luck with my jet bike army.
It's:
Autarch on bike with laser lance and mask
4x3 scatter laser bikes
5 wraith guard in a serpent
4x6 reavers with 2 caltrops
2x5 scourage with haywire
10 Lhamaean in raider
2x5 warriors in venoms

Turn 1, reavers, autarch, serpent and raider all went flank out up a flank.
Opponents turn 1.
He's he's got 34 poison shots and 48 S6 shots coming in from the front, and 5 very serious assault units about to roll down his flank. The remaining 3rd of his force is out of range due to the speed bikes. He could run his death star toward the reavers, but then he's got to contest with 5 Strength D shots, and 30 attacks with 2+ poison and lethal dose. If he brings in any reserves near the reavers they'll be at risk of assault.

It put my opponent into a position with some very hard decision to make, and very little time to react.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

Maybe you don't have enough.
Maybe you need another more pressing target, like 3 incubi in a night shielded raider, 11 to 13 S4 AP2 attacks usually hitting on 3+ for a 70 point unit.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
Reaver jet bikes are easily one of the best units in the Codex. They can put on some hurt to a unit they charge.

So I keep hearing, but mine consistently just get killed. Maybe I just have bad luck with them.

Maybe you don't have enough.
Maybe you need another more pressing target, like 3 incubi in a night shielded raider, 11 to 13 S4 AP2 attacks usually hitting on 3+ for a 70 point unit.

Im guessing this includes a klaivex?

So here's a quick question.

Aside magnets (Which I intend to do for this flyer) what do you all have most success with when using a Razorwing?

I built my last one as Splinter Rifle, Dark Lance and Monoscythe Missiles. With the one I got to supplement it, I'm thinking of using Necrotoxin and Dark Lance/Splinter Rifles? Is that good?
If only for Wraithknights...

 Frozocrone wrote:
With the one I got to supplement it, I'm thinking of using Necrotoxin and Dark Lance/Splinter Rifles? Is that good?
If only for Wraithknights...

I run both of my RWJFs in that configuration. DLs to shoot down enemy fliers and force Flyrants to Jink. Necrotoxin Missiles help against blobs of high Toughness models. I also add NS, 3+ Jink helps them survive the enemy response after they come so they may return and dish out more damage later.

I run mine with Splinter cannon and DL, with the monoscythe. I have started not using Night shields anymore. But I feel like they are no longer needed.

I won't lie, I run mine stock more often than not. I have a really hard time justifying upgrades it seems. My usual strategy is to fire 2 dissies and 2 missiles when they enter, then I can still be enough of a threat to another unit a different turn. I always figure "if it's debatable which way to run them anyway, may as well pick the cheaper option".

The two lances rarely impress me for antiarmor options because it's not consistent enough to count on for anything. If I want to kill a tank, I'll take something I can count on to get the job done like a unit of firedragons.

 DaKKaLAnce wrote:
I run mine with Splinter cannon and DL, with the monoscythe. I have started not using Night shields anymore. But I feel like they are no longer needed.

Whatever floats your boat. From my personal experience I found that passing Jink saves on 3+ rather than 4+ saved my sorry ass so many times I don't leave Commorragh without NS.

Well the way I look at it, If I jink, then the fighter is going to be useless. My meta is against FMC and Crimson hunters, So They will keep shooting at me and I will keep jinking. That is why I usually dont put NS on my Fliers.

But you can just fly off the board after you jink, then come in the next turn and shoot at full bs

DirtyDeeds wrote:
But you can just fly off the board after you jink, then come in the next turn and shoot at full bs

Yes I could, I did that last game we played and it worked out. I was just trying to say a few points and make my list on a budget . When I have the extra points, I usually go ahead and put the NS on.

i run Dark Lances for hunting other flyers as well. No upgrade on the chin gun, no defensive upgrades. If I have the points, I'll get some Shatterfield Missiles, just because they'll also wound on a 2+ for most things, have shred, and can damage vehicles because of the S7.

My typical tactic is to fly on the board and unload all 4 missiles immediately, typically crushing whatever unit they hit. That way if my opponent shoots at me next turn I've gotten my money's worth out of it if it gets blown out of the sky.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I won't lie, I run mine stock more often than not. I have a really hard time justifying upgrades it seems. My usual strategy is to fire 2 dissies and 2 missiles when they enter, then I can still be enough of a threat to another unit a different turn. I always figure "if it's debatable which way to run them anyway, may as well pick the cheaper option".

The two lances rarely impress me for antiarmor options because it's not consistent enough to count on for anything. If I want to kill a tank, I'll take something I can count on to get the job done like a unit of firedragons.

I agree, I find having 6 s5 ap2 shots a SC and two missiles can clear anything I want off from where I want. The Two DL's usually mean I am not using my missile payload the way I should, or they aren't helping as much. 2 odd DL's isn't worth that cost IMO.

Ooh ok. I was thinking about Voidravens as my flyers and AA while reconstructing my list..

I've used all my Fast Attack on Scourge and Venoms for the Heroes Path formation xD Has anyone used the bombers effectively?

I have been toying with this list ...

Real Space Raiders - 1850

Llhamaen: Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons:

3x 5 Kabalite Warriors: Blaster, Venom, Dual Splinter Cannons:

4 Razorwing Jetfighters: 2 TL Dark Lances, 4 Monoscythe Missiles:
2 Razorwing Jetfighters: 2 TL Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, 4 Monoscythe Missiles:

3 Voidraven Bombers: Two Void Lances, Void Bomb, Nightshields:

10 Splinter Cannons
12 Dark Lances
24 Monoscthe Missiles
6 Void Lances
3 Void Bombs
3 Blasters

You can knock lances but when you spam enough they are quite good. I do like my void ravens a lot. I take the two razors with SCs just for FMCs and sometimes they are handy against ground units.

Is this list competitive ... not really. It is rather 'hit or miss' by nature. No ObSec so I need to kill everything. Not that it isn't possible by turn four/five. I generally lose a few venoms turn one even with the hunter boost from real space.

That said you can field the venoms empty and keep the warriors behind LoS if the terrain is good. There are a few options. Bottom line is that DE flyers are way better en masse. Of course this is nothing new. Void ravens are just fine in this list.

Now specifically - a void raven with FF is just more durable then a razorwing. Don't think that AV11 over AV10 is a small difference. It is enough to keep the void raven flying. And its lance is pretty darn potent. S9 AP2 means you are penetrating more often. It is really that simple. And the S9 blast when you are flying off is nothing to sneeze at.

Notice also that I forgo any extra missiles on the void ravens. While nice I would rather keep the cost down. I have plenty of AI in the razors anyway. However, if I was not using razors I would add two shatterfields to the load out.

Now I played this list twice. I've never gone to any major event with it. So take this with a grain of salt. I have played razors and bombers though more often.

 felixcat wrote:
Now specifically - a void raven with FF is just more durable then a razorwing. Don't think that AV11 over AV10 is a small difference. It is enough to keep the void raven flying. And its lance is pretty darn potent. S9 AP2 means you are penetrating more often. It is really that simple. And the S9 blast when you are flying off is nothing to sneeze at.

Uhm, that used to be the case in the 5th Edition Codex. In 7th Edition, Voidraven has AV 10 and access to NS, which grants Stealth rather than decreasing the range of enemy weapons. No FF.

So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

Hardy har. I'm finishing modeling my DE to paint, and although the wyches won't get PLAYED this edition, if I do break them out for some reason, I'd like to know I have the most viable weapon on them.

I'd assume it'd still be hydra gauntlets, but my math skills are fuzzy at best.

No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

 Red Corsair wrote:
No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

Ok...I'm not looking to compare them to other units, or bare wyches. All I want to know is which, among the three Wych weapons, is mathematically the best, if any?

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
No upgrades, just more wyches. All the current wych weapons suck for their cost.

Ok...I'm not looking to compare them to other units, or bare wyches. All I want to know is which, among the three Wych weapons, is mathematically the best, if any?

Well, I guess I don't see the point really since all 3 are kind of bad. Personally I like the shardnet and impaler since to me it fits their gladiatorial background the best and I find the model looks the coolest. I wasn't trying to be annoying, I just don't see the point in splitting hairs between 3 suboptimal options. just take your favorite.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, is there a consensus on which Wych weapon is best these days?

The one that comes with grotesques.

Hardy har. I'm finishing modeling my DE to paint, and although the wyches won't get PLAYED this edition, if I do break them out for some reason, I'd like to know I have the most viable weapon on them.

I'd assume it'd still be hydra gauntlets, but my math skills are fuzzy at best.

I think I found the best option for my wyches.
Mine will have 2 power swords, 4 chain swords, 6 shuriken pistols, and 2 meltaguns; all for only 72 points; then because that feels too cheap, I'll add a warlock with a spear (converted from mandrakes).
6" battle focus is just awesome, even on guardians.

All jokes aside jimsolo I think the razorflails are better one the charge, more attacks with more re-rolls is great but the hydra gauntlets are best after the charge. It also depends on what you are fighting of course. Hydra/flails are both neck in neck I feel and the shardnet and impaler are the least viable option.

Due to the way the wych boxes are packaged however I will have one wych unit with gauntlets, one with flails and my bloodbrides with have impalers.

Sorry if this isn't entirely helpful but its my take on it. My math is horrible btw so I don't even attempt it lol.

I'm thinking Hydra Gauntlets are probably the best. Wyches are WS4 and Str3 so they hit more easily than they wound - therefore better to have a re-roll on the wound roll than the hit roll I reckon.

I always go hydra for the exact reason given, wyches will hit, it's wounding that's annoying so hydra gauntlets fix that. As for all the options being terrible and people "just not seeing the point" well they don't use wyches very often, sure without all haywire grenades they are not as decent as they used to be but I still like to use a 10 man in a raider cause my opponent doesn't know that so they poor fire at them scared of cc. I'll use them too cc what ever my warrior boats/venoms don't kill with shooting and it works really well.

One thing I love about wyches is the 4++ in cc. They are a relatively cheap unit that you can throw at an enemy MC or high str/ap low number of attacks enemy and they can tarpit them quite nicely.

My math might be way off but one reason I like the razorflails is that assuming you face a ws4 opponent you have a 50% chance to hit, with re-rolls that makes it 75% chance to hit. Since rolling to hit happens before rolling to wound you can't re-roll wounds on failed to hit rolls so the flails help you right out the gate. I'm not arguing that they are better by any means, str3 is still terrible and re-roll to wound greatly helps that, I just don't see the flails nearly as useless as some people seem to perceive them.

I don't think that the Razorflails are useless, it's just that they aren't as good as the Gauntlets. (I mean, I'd still take them if they were the only option.)

But yeah, let's not confuse this academic sidebar with a discussion of whether or not wyches suck. The jury's in: they do.

But I've been accused of being TFG and making cheesy lists a couple of times, so I thought I would shoot myself in the foot and make friendly lists with sub-par units. I just can't bring myself, I guess, to permanently mar my miniatures with sub-par equipment.

Jim ive never seen you come up with a cheesy list ever, most lists I've seen from you are fluff orientated, or around a certain trick, like the LD stuff. Just because you then make a strong list utilising a cool idea doesn't make it cheesy

But then maybe secretly your just an elder player! with all your serpents and wraithknights! GRR you make me so mad!

I like solosam's idea, take some wyches that they either overestimate or underestimate

Confusion might be the best bet.
3x5 wyches, each with a different wych weapon.
Then 2x9 wyches, one with jain zar, the other with karandas.

Try and distract the opponent with how awesome those wych weapons are...

How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1. Ally an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask.
2. Cancel Overwatch.
3. Rape.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1) Don't get into combat
2) Multi-charge since everything is going to overwatch (might as well tie up as many units as possible)
3) Banshee Masks
4) Maximum Threat Overlord (one unit will get shot to bits, bring out five to six and suddenly it's not as bad).
5) Force things to go to ground, then charge.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

Tau is a tough army...But Theres isnt really too much you can do. Soften them up a little before assault.

But honestly sounds like you just had bad rolling and he had great rolling.

or take a lone beast, charge that in first, if they overwatch they can't overwatch again. If they don't... well a unit in combat can't overwatch (and I assume that means the other tau units can't either? they can't elect to overwatch without the primary right? dont know tau well).

A few beasts can be only around 50pts, they can move and keep up with bikes reasonably well. They will take away fire if the enemy realises what trick is coming, they will eat overwatch if he doesn't.

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

Another option is to break units out of the 6" bubbles of each other. I find that many units can be knocked out of supporting fire range by inflicting a couple casualties on the right side. Venoms and other long range guns are great for doing this.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
How does everybody deal with overwatch? My buddy plays tau and the collective overwatch he can put out is hardcore. He killed 5 of my 6 reavers on overwatch alone. And it was already a fairly weakened squad. Maybe it was just a case of him rolling super well and me rolling jinks really poorly.

1. Ally an Autarch Skyrunner with a Banshee Mask.
2. Cancel Overwatch.
3. Rape.

This for sure, if you multi charge these in first anything thats in combat cant overwatch. Start piling in and taking slaves. The only foil I see against the massive tau overwatch would be kroot bubblewrap but as other posters have said, venoms are perfect for poking holes.

I'm trying to stick to mono Dark Eldar for the time being so Banshee Masks are a no go. But a very tempting offer. Weakening the line sounds like a good option. My Reavers really outpaced everybody else so I couldn't really whittle them down before I assaulted. As I play them more I'll get used to how the army moves. I'm used to the slow as gak Imperium.

 Gamerely wrote:
I'm trying to stick to mono Dark Eldar for the time being so Banshee Masks are a no go. But a very tempting offer. Weakening the line sounds like a good option. My Reavers really outpaced everybody else so I couldn't really whittle them down before I assaulted. As I play them more I'll get used to how the army moves. I'm used to the slow as gak Imperium.

Boost an empty raider along side them to block line of sight. Other units can only overwatch if they can see

How many bike squads are you using? 3x6? and are you using the RSR detachment?

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
I'm trying to stick to mono Dark Eldar for the time being so Banshee Masks are a no go. But a very tempting offer. Weakening the line sounds like a good option. My Reavers really outpaced everybody else so I couldn't really whittle them down before I assaulted. As I play them more I'll get used to how the army moves. I'm used to the slow as gak Imperium.

Boost an empty raider along side them to block line of sight. Other units can only overwatch if they can see

Oh wow, I never even considered that! And to DaKKaLAnce, in that game I had 2 units of 6. That was my first time using them in a larger capacity. Just a 750 point game so I was trying some new things.

 Gamerely wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
I'm trying to stick to mono Dark Eldar for the time being so Banshee Masks are a no go. But a very tempting offer. Weakening the line sounds like a good option. My Reavers really outpaced everybody else so I couldn't really whittle them down before I assaulted. As I play them more I'll get used to how the army moves. I'm used to the slow as gak Imperium.

Boost an empty raider along side them to block line of sight. Other units can only overwatch if they can see

Oh wow, I never even considered that! And to DaKKaLAnce, in that game I had 2 units of 6. That was my first time using them in a larger capacity. Just a 750 point game so I was trying some new things.

Ah gotcha. Well that is a good amount at 750. Maybe add another 3 man squad to take the hit? with the jink and Fnp, you shouldn't really have any issues with over watch.

 Gamerely wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
I'm trying to stick to mono Dark Eldar for the time being so Banshee Masks are a no go. But a very tempting offer. Weakening the line sounds like a good option. My Reavers really outpaced everybody else so I couldn't really whittle them down before I assaulted. As I play them more I'll get used to how the army moves. I'm used to the slow as gak Imperium.

Boost an empty raider along side them to block line of sight. Other units can only overwatch if they can see

Oh wow, I never even considered that! And to DaKKaLAnce, in that game I had 2 units of 6. That was my first time using them in a larger capacity. Just a 750 point game so I was trying some new things.

Empty raiders are your friend

If you position your attackers correctly, against Tau you can often make charges from a position out of LOS of some of the supporting units.

Control the weapon ranges, too. Overwatch doesn't negate weapon ranges, and since most of our units are Fleet, we can charge from further back with a greater degree of safety from failed charges. This can prevent some supporting fire, and can at least mitigate Rapid Fire from the models in the target or supporting units.

Our greater mobility makes these tactics much easier for us than for slower armies.

For fans of Mush's Repugnant Ramblers, I wrote up a batrep using a revised list using the Grotesquerie formation with some kabalites in venoms as the troop tax:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/648535.page#7831852

lustigjh wrote:
For fans of Mush's Repugnant Ramblers, I wrote up a batrep using a revised list using the Grotesquerie formation with some kabalites in venoms as the troop tax:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/648535.page#7831852

Great report Lustigjh and grats on the solid win! Im trying to build a similar coven/kabalite list but my issue is two of my main opponents play mech IG. I read Mush's batrep vs the Imperial knights where his lack of anti armor was mitigated by board presence but against IG with obsec its seemingly not really an option.

My last game i was able to hobble his transports turn 2 with caltrop/vane reavers I couldn't capitalize due to incredibly poor reserve rolls. By the time i had ground my way back on the board. He was so far ahead in points i needed to table to (arguably) win. I feel i could have had we gone to T7 but alas we did not so i got crushed.

How would you build or play a list like this against mech anything really without going full tailoring min/max cheese? Replace venoms with DL raiders?

Edit:
The game was 1500 pts and roughly:

Haemy - WWP, in dark artisan
Talos -Heat lance, chain flails
Chronos - siphon

RSR
Archon - WWP, blast pistol
5 blasterborn
2 X 5 warriors in venoms with SC upgrade
2 Razorwings - DLs
4 X 3 Reavers - Caltrops

Guard
3 chimeras - 2 with vets and Comissar, 1 with priest and ogryns
Vindicator
LR Exterminator
Wyvern (? the multiple barrage anti infantry ?)
Vendetta with special weapon vets

I know my list was a mess but i was just trying to get a feel for some different units since its been a while since i played.

My 1500 coven/kabalite list includes 2 units of Haywire Scourges so that's how I'd do anti armor. I make up for it by taking one less plane and one less Reaver unit - that's a lot of extra anti-infantry if you ask me.

I haven't had the chance yet, but my current build has an autarch with a banshee mask in a squad of 10 grotesques... I already warned my local tau player that I'll be gunnin' for his gunline. >

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I haven't had the chance yet, but my current build has an autarch with a banshee mask in a squad of 10 grotesques... I already warned my local tau player that I'll be gunnin' for his gunline. >

Tau overwatch is 90% why I bought Eldar allies with the new dex. I'm so sick of watching all my stuff die to free shooting attacks.

lustigjh wrote:
My 1500 coven/kabalite list includes 2 units of Haywire Scourges so that's how I'd do anti armor. I make up for it by taking one less plane and one less Reaver unit - that's a lot of extra anti-infantry if you ask me.

Do you find Haywire Scourges useful? I know it's allying in, which you may not want to do, but if you're going with Haywire, you may as well use Swooping Hawks instead. The way I see it, the advantages of Scourges is being able to take a ridiculous amount of heavy weaponry on a small squad, i.e. 4 heat lances. This will give you anti-tank (and anti TEQ/MEQ) capabilities through shooting - i.e. on the turn you deep strike, if you choose to do so - and hence allows them to fulfil a role that swooping hawks can't.

 The Shadow wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
My 1500 coven/kabalite list includes 2 units of Haywire Scourges so that's how I'd do anti armor. I make up for it by taking one less plane and one less Reaver unit - that's a lot of extra anti-infantry if you ask me.

Do you find Haywire Scourges useful? I know it's allying in, which you may not want to do, but if you're going with Haywire, you may as well use Swooping Hawks instead. The way I see it, the advantages of Scourges is being able to take a ridiculous amount of heavy weaponry on a small squad, i.e. 4 heat lances. This will give you anti-tank (and anti TEQ/MEQ) capabilities through shooting - i.e. on the turn you deep strike, if you choose to do so - and hence allows them to fulfil a role that swooping hawks can't.

When it comes to Scourges, that debate will rage forever. The greater range (and greater effective range) of the Haywire Blaster vs the greater utility against non-vehicle targets is a question with no 'one right answer.'

Agreed. I tend to play the range and LOS game so I need mine to stay as far away as possible and strip away hull points which means haywire blasters are the right answer for me. If I used heat lances they would be the only unit in range of the enemy and they'd get obliterated after landing (assuming they didn't mishap in the first place). If you took a different style of list with other threats in the enemy's face then I could see the argument for heat lances, but they don't work in my list.

If your allying in Eldar then their is no point in scourge IMO. Swooping hawks are better at everything for the same cost. With an 18" move and fleet they assault an average of 27"!!! No vehicle in the game can hide from them, and with battle focus and longer ranged AI weapons (plus hawk bombs that ignore cover) it gets annoying how much better they are. Oh, and battle focus to hide after a volley in case they weren't good enough lol. Thanks to having every grenade in the world there is no need to specialize these blokes, they do it all.

Then there are fire dragons for metla. Melta guns AND melta bombs on every model, +1 to damage. Again, annoying when you realize a heatlance scourge is 26ppm to a fire dragons 22 and thanks to battle focus a fire dragon moves ~10" compared to our 12"....

That said I love the models and will continue to field my scourge because I like a challenge in my games lol. I think that's the number one reason to continue using the DE versions, they make for a more challenging game and at least for me, a much more gratifying victory because it was hard fought.

The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

I love me Heat Lance Scourges. They're good at blowing up Vehicles. I also used their mobility/DS to grab remote objectives many times, or score Linebreaker for instance.

Can't wait to start casting Guide on them.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

5 scourge with heavy weapons is 120pts
5 firdragons are 110

Not seeing where your coming from, and in an allied detachment you can get hawks and fragons. I also haven't seen a recent event that didn't allow formations, the aspect shrine gets you 3 in any combo with BS 5 to boot.

Collection limitations don't merit much weight in a tactics discussion IMHO. We are discussing unit merits not what everyone owns.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

5 scourge with heavy weapons is 120pts
5 firdragons are 110

Not seeing where your coming from, and in an allied detachment you can get hawks and fragons. I also haven't seen a recent event that didn't allow formations, the aspect shrine gets you 3 in any combo with BS 5 to boot.

Collection limitations don't merit much weight in a tactics discussion IMHO. We are discussing unit merits not what everyone owns.

Fire Dragons need a good delivery method, whether it's a Wave Serpent or a Falcon or something more unusual like a Webway Portal. I'm not saying that Scourges are better or that Fire Dragons are bad, because that's not the case, it's just that Scourges are something you can stick in a list that's nearing the limit to add a bit more anti-armour firepower and are something that can operate well on their own. Not as well as Fire Dragons operate with a Wave Serpent, but well nonetheless.

Thats a great point shadow, fire dragons are typically going to cost around 220 once all is said and done because without a transport their use is quite limited. That's not to say you're not getting good use out of the firepower of the transport, and the protection for the dragons inside, but it is something to consider when looking at the overall investment required to make good use of either unit.

I make no assumptions of either unit being better than one or the other either, they both have their uses and are good in their own right. Another thing I like about scourges is that running either the HWB or the heat lance are both viable options with pros and cons, its not like there is one clear choice that one is better than the other. To me that speaks to a unit being fairly well balanced, I like seeing this sort of thing within a codex. It's a far cry from some units from other armies that you look at and think "wow, they have 4 weapon options but 3 of them suck so why would I ever load them out differently?".

SoB dominions come to mind in this regard, the storm bolter is quite a laughable choice, the flamer gets no benefit from their AoF and the melta jives so perfectly with them that you'd be daft not to take it. They might as well have just made their codex entry with the melta already equipped.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Thats a great point shadow, fire dragons are typically going to cost around 220 once all is said and done because without a transport their use is quite limited. That's not to say you're not getting good use out of the firepower of the transport, and the protection for the dragons inside, but it is something to consider when looking at the overall investment required to make good use of either unit.

That's true, and part of the reason why Fire Dragons are good. Yes, they do need a transport to function but that transport is hardly a tax and functions well in its own right. That said, that transport still costs and hence it's easier to fit Scourges in any old list.

Scourges also have a slightly larger Melta Range which gets them out of Explosion range and gives them a slightly larger threat threshold.

I just wish my beloved Scourge got +1 to vehicle damage...that's probably why I consider Fire Dragons to be equal to/better than Scourge with their weapons.

@ Red Corsair

You also need to consider the range on the weapons. Scourges can plink away hull points at 24" while Fire Dragons need at least 12".

@ Jimsolo

Swooping Hawks fill the same role as Scourges, but in a different way. While Scourges would like to shoot their targets from a distance, Swooping Hawks have Haywire Grenades so they would much rather assault their targets. What makes them cool is that if equipped with an Exarch, they do not scatter, and any unit that they move over with their 18" movement gets hit with a Haywire Grenade or a str 4 ap4 hit for each model in the unit. This attack can be made against fliers. THEN they can shoot another Haywire grenade.

Swooping Hawks might be able to double down.
6 attempts on a 4+ for a S4 AP4 haywire, then another haywire toss in the shooting phase, followed by 6 more haywires in the assault phase.

Think of it this way. Wyches with haywire used to be awesome. Swooping hawks now fill that role, only doing it better, due to moving a full 12" further than the wyches could; and having 4+ armor too.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

5 scourge with heavy weapons is 120pts
5 firdragons are 110

Not seeing where your coming from, and in an allied detachment you can get hawks and fragons. I also haven't seen a recent event that didn't allow formations, the aspect shrine gets you 3 in any combo with BS 5 to boot.

Collection limitations don't merit much weight in a tactics discussion IMHO. We are discussing unit merits not what everyone owns.

Fire Dragons need a good delivery method, whether it's a Wave Serpent or a Falcon or something more unusual like a Webway Portal. I'm not saying that Scourges are better or that Fire Dragons are bad, because that's not the case, it's just that Scourges are something you can stick in a list that's nearing the limit to add a bit more anti-armour firepower and are something that can operate well on their own. Not as well as Fire Dragons operate with a Wave Serpent, but well nonetheless.

Exactly. Footslogging FDs are cheaper, but virtually useless without a ride. After necessary upgrades, the Scourges are cheaper. The FDs in a transport are better, IMO, but the Scourges cost less to field effectively.

@Redcorsair- Of course collection limitations have a place in such discussions. Finding secondary or tertiary solutions which can be achieved with the models people have access to is one of the primary purposes of in depth tactical discussions. It's why people spend pages upon pages trying in vain to figure out how to make Hellions or Wyches not blow in this edition.

A tactical discussion isn't a unit guide. More than just reaching a communal agreement on three or four 'best' units, a good tactical discussion considers broader strategies for a wider variety of units.

Not to sound snippy but coming from a guy with a thread revolving around leadership shenanigans using up to 4 sources I think suggesting limitations based on models is a flawed stance. I respect the freak show stratagem despite how many sources and models it requires. I don't see how a few aspect warriors is a problem by comparison for example.

I look at what tactics are the most practical, not at what I own necessarily, doing this allows me to make informed future purchases. I'd personally rather own a unit of hawks and dragons along with a couple scourge units then rely on spamming several more scourge units.

Back on topic in regard to fire dragons, they really don't have bad range on foot when you factor in battle focus. 6" move with a 3.5" average battle focus (fleet) and a 12" range is 21.5" total. We are looking at heat lance scourgeas a direct comparison, so 12" move that needs to be within 9" for 21" total. Hlances may say 18" range but they might as well say 9". So as you can see, fire dragons actually out range heat lances on foot overall since they threaten armor at 12" there is no requirement for them to be in melta range unlike heat lances. Obviously they perform best inside a venom or raider, but I felt it was worth displaying just how wide their threat range is even on foot.

I'd suggest an aspect shrine for any DE list as a cheap highly efficient AT section. Go fir +1 BS and take hawks, dragons and even Dreapers. It allows us to relax a bit on AT and focus on the fun AI shenanigans we can pull.

@Red Corsair

If you're going to limit the Scourge to the range of the melta effect, why not do the same for the Fire Dragons?

DirtyDeeds wrote:
@Red Corsair

If you're going to limit the Scourge to the range of the melta effect, why not do the same for the Fire Dragons?

Exactly. When you factor in melta ranges, even with fleet dragons have an effective range of 15.5 vs the 21 of Scourges. That's assuming you're using lances vs HWBs of course, which have an effective range of 36".

Again, (and this keeps getting lost for some reason) I would also prefer Fire Dragons to Scourges, but circumstances don't always allow their inclusion. (Model collections, points values, or event restrictions on number of detachments, sources, and units can all contribute to making the scourges more feasible.)

The Freakshow threads do indeed address a large array of armies, but I think you're mistaken. Freakshows do not require four sources to function. Two will often be sufficient. I talk about such a wide variety of units and options in order to address more possibilities than a single formulaic list. I have mentioned a unit performing in a secondary role when collection limitations force them to be fielded on more than one occasion.

If the tactics we discuss and come up with aren't able to be applied because virtually no one has the models to do so, then those tactics are functionally worthless, and the time spent discussing them a waste.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
@Red Corsair

If you're going to limit the Scourge to the range of the melta effect, why not do the same for the Fire Dragons?

Because I have used scourge exhaustively in 5th, 6th and 7th and heatlances may as well be ranged 9" when regarding vehicle penetration. S6 struggles to even pop rhinos. OTOH a melta gun is an AP1 blaster, there is no need to be in melta range when your shooting at rhinos, especially now that fire dragons from an aspect shrine are BS5 and explode that rhino on a 4+. 5 dragons will hit 4 times, pen twice and get the explode from 12" which actually means they are further away then scourge, ie safer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:
@Red Corsair

If you're going to limit the Scourge to the range of the melta effect, why not do the same for the Fire Dragons?

Exactly. When you factor in melta ranges, even with fleet dragons have an effective range of 15.5 vs the 21 of Scourges. That's assuming you're using lances vs HWBs of course, which have an effective range of 36".

Again, (and this keeps getting lost for some reason) I would also prefer Fire Dragons to Scourges, but circumstances don't always allow their inclusion. (Model collections, points values, or event restrictions on number of detachments, sources, and units can all contribute to making the scourges more feasible.)

The Freakshow threads do indeed address a large array of armies, but I think you're mistaken. Freakshows do not require four sources to function. Two will often be sufficient. I talk about such a wide variety of units and options in order to address more possibilities than a single formulaic list. I have mentioned a unit performing in a secondary role when collection limitations force them to be fielded on more than one occasion.

See the above, thats just flat false in practice.

Also, don't move the post. If we are talking haywire then I am going with hawks over scourge EVERY time. With a 27" average assault and the ability to rape fliers there is no contest that hawks are the winner in the haywire debate. They also keep their anti infantry capability and are WAY more mobile. 120 pts gets you 5 scourge with 4 haywire blasters 122pts get you 7 hawks including the exarch. That's 7 haywire attempts at heavy armor that ignore cover because of melee. And if I draw tyranids or demons I am not stuck with a 120pt handicap.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If the tactics we discuss and come up with aren't able to be applied because virtually no one has the models to do so, then those tactics are functionally worthless, and the time spent discussing them a waste.

Honestly you think your being fair here? I suggested fielding an aspect shrine which btw can be as small as 9 models and your biggest opposition is "virtually no one has the models to do so?" Again, I feel like your being hypocritical when your advocating for 3-5 books and factions in your freakshow discussion, a tactic that is hyper specialized and rock, paper, scissors along with needing more costly models. A general tactics thread can't be about what models each players owns, that's just a silly argument. We aren't going to inventory everyones collections reading this. I think you need to stop hammering on about model restrictions.

btw I am not trying to be rude, but it is frustrating as I respect your opinion in regard to strategy and your hung up on something that's strictly hobby/collector related. I want to hear your stance on the tactics.

You seem to think I am saying 'Fire Dragons are bad and/or not preferable to Scourges,' despite me explicitly saying otherwise several times.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

I never said that. At all. While people were discussing which weapon to put on Scourges (Heat Lances vs Haywire Blasters), you made the assertion that there was no point in taking either form of Scourge; that Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons were better.

MY reply was an attempt to validate the weapon loadout conversation, because your list can't always fit Swooping Hawks/Fire Dragons because A) the event might not let you have allies at all, B) the event might limit what kind/how many detachments you can have, C) you might need more anti-tank and not have the slots left over in your Eldar detachment(s), D) you might need anti-tank and not have enough points left over to fit the Fire Dragons, or E) you might not have those particular models, and would like other effective options, which the Scourges definitely are.

Because all of these reasons may affect someone, the haywire blaster/heat lance discussion remains a valid one. That was my only (inital) point.

Firedragons and swooping hawks are both very good at what they do.

However there are places where scourges are better.

Swooping hawks are not an answer to 2+/3+ save models. Firedragons are not mobile and have short range.

Scourges are mobile, and can be an answer to both vehicles and teq or meq at the same time if you take heatlance (blasters too, not sure how those get forgotten always 12" +18" range = 30" threat range, or you can move to 18" from something and shoot it and hope its not in charge range (6" move models would have to roll a 12 to get you... 12" move models would have about a 56% chance to roll a 7+)

Firedragons can plop down and blast the hell out of a tank, but against a 2+/3+ unit they plop down put out 4 wounds that may get inv/cover saved then are going to be shot/charged by anything that is left

Swooping hawks can munch vehicles, but have no real place against MCs/models wich mutli wounds and a decent save as they are at that point about as good as kabalite warriors with splinter rifles in a raider with a splinter rack.

So yeah swooping hawks and firedragons are awesome at fragging vehicles.

Scourges are good at fragging vehicles and MC/tough infantry (haywire blaster excluded as it is good at fragging just vehicles really)

also firedragons need a transport, so saying they cost 10 less than scourges who can deepstrike and move twice as fast as them is misleading.

as for scourge load out, in a TAC I take blasters because of what I stated above.

Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

People! People! The CWE are nice and shiny right now yes, they do alot better, yes, but do we really have to start arguing and giving up just cause GW is as unfair as they always have? Did you all play DE cause you wanted the game to be easy? I sure as hell didnt, matter of fact i picked DE cause Vect is a pimp, the army is skill based, and by god do our models look fantastic!

Sure Eldar do alot better than us, but alot isnt everything, you can only pack so many points in an army and no matter what you are gonna find holes. Alot of reports i see coming in have eldar actually not stomping around dropping the sky, they have strong matches where both armies are neck and neck, mostly because alot of eldar players now are totally horrible at the game cause they just want to win the easiest way without learning the game (i.e new players) not saying all of em suck, the ones that have been playing eldar are damn good and will spank most armies haha but they are a dwindling force.

Meanwhile in DE world you have a smaller group of these new players who more than likely saw a good DE player and thought "That looks easy" so they constantly lose then come cry on the forums DE suck and CWE do everything better. The issue is these low tier players are the loudest voices which cast doom and gloom on everything, this stirs up the forums and people start bickerring and no one helps one another like they should.

Most DE are played by good players, who all have strong merit and have been at it for awhile. Now I havent played Jimsolo or red corsair, but I have read things they wrote in the past that were quite intelligent and offered great views. Now look at them....arguing because that damn CWE got on the thread and the sky is falling. We get it everyone, CWE does things better, move on and lets continue with actual meat and potatoes of this thread with ideas and thoughts. Where is Mush with his tactical advice when you need him huh! haha

All im saying is stop beating the horse, its dead, you either stick with the army or ride the new gravy train. I want to go back to lurking this thread and enjoying the thoughts and ideas that circulate it. please.....(end rant)

DE have a few advantages of CWE.
Better transports, better at doing MSU (seriously, you can get a unit for 10 points). Reavers are awesome, eldar don't have the speed and impact that their dark brothers do. Grotesques are pretty decent, and Coven gets a lot of decent and cheap formations.
But that's about it, and that's a pretty short list.

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

Discussing DE tactics is the purpose of this thread.

Discussing DE + CWE allies tactics is acceptable. Why not get some help?

Ranting about how CWE are superior in every aspect is... silly? Unnecessary? Everyone and their grandmother knows that. No need to beat a dead horse (as someone has already pointed out).

 Jimsolo wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

I agree with the dragons effective range, also many tables have a thing called terrain which slows dragons movement whereas scourges ignore terrain they jump over.

While every model in an elder army can have a good save and str6+ shooting that does not mean the AP is good and the model cost will be high. Scat bikes are I believe 27ppm, a squad of 6 is 162pts and breaks ~30% of the time when it takes 25% casualties, ie 2 models.

When mech was king, as in leafblower/parking lot lists DE did well not buy completely annihilating a vehicle but by putting enough hits on one to immobilize/weapon destroy/stun it and shoot the others slowly whittling them down and then bullying one or two the remaining rounds. Against elder it is similar, bully the units to force break tests then fire at a different unit. If you have done enough casualties to force a break test and there are other equal targets, target the other unit so at the end of the shooting phase the eldar player has to take many break tests. An eldar player with 6 units of 6 scatter bikes, you only need to kill 2 models per unit (total of 12 t4 3+ models...) to force those 6 units to each take a break test, which on average will see 2 out of the 6 break leaving most likely 4 units each down 2+ models (lets say 16 models left total) to shoot back at you. Focusing 2 units to try and utterly kill them (12 models killed) results in 4 full units (24 models) firing back at you. In other words if they are all scat bikes, that's the difference between a possible 64 shots from 4 units or 96 shots from 4 units. That means by spreading out your firepower to have an effect past just killing you can reduce your opponents offense by 1/3. Also it will put you in a position for the next round where you only need to do 1 casualty to force a break check on 4 man units...

Yes that is only part of an eldar army, but the eldar bandwagoneers are talking about 6x6 scat bikes being king. 6x6x27ppm= 972 pts. In an 1850 game that's more than half of a players points.

Much more effective to force the break tests than focus on killing early on. Also some of the DE tac objectives involve break tests

 Jimsolo wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Fire Dragons have a 24" threat range. 6" move, 6" guaranteed run, 12" gun.

Fire Dragons are also BS 5. Kill everything that Scourge do better and can run after shooting. (This is with formation but sadly this will be the norm.)

When you have the guaranteed run you dont need a transport.

Im sorry but there is nothing in the Dark Eldar Codex that Eldar cant do better. Its sad because my 3k pts of Dark Eldar (only army I have painted) are collecting dust.

Played a 1850 pt game yesterday vs Eldar, every model in his army had a 3+ save and Str 6 or better shooting. It was really disheartening watching him run all over the board with his 6" runs and his long ranged guns. Felt like I had nothing to combat him.

What kind of list were you running?

And no, to be truly effective in their role, Dragons need melta range. Thus an 18" effective range.

A fast, open topped skimmer with an invulnerable save does nothing but benefit them.

No, no they don't. This is where the conversation gets frustrating, since when does a s8 ap1 weapon need to be in melta range? Considering our best AT are dark light weapons and are s8 ap2 that arguement falls apart rather quickly. I already pointed it out, shrine dragons hit on 2's so 4 out of 5 hit (technically 4.2) already better then any other DE unit that can carry blasters, the exarch has reroll everything btw, and with the +1 to vehicle damage they will on average explode a rhino a turn outside melta range, vs av 12 they should hull it out (if its a pod, open topped, they explode it again).

Obviously DE skimmers make them better, but in order to avoid the red heron arguments about them needing a transport (tax) it was better to simply demonstrate how they already perform without one.

It doesn't need to be in melta range but when its not str8 struggles against av 13-14.

4 out of 5 hitting is good, but outside of melta range against AV 13 that's a 5+ to have an effect, so 1.32 of those shots will do something before any cover saves/inv saves.

5 blasters at 18 range at BS 4 is 3.3 hits, lets say 3.

3 hits that have an effect on a 4+ so 1.5 of those shots will do something, with twice the chance to pen than a firedragon outside of melta range.

So yes, Firedragons are effective outside of melta range, but are not as effective as a standard blaster.

so no, not better than any other DE unit that can carry blasters.

The +1 to vehicle damage is big, but only comes into play 1/6th of the time against AV 13 and cannot do anything to av 14 outside of melta range.

against AV 11 rhinos they will average 2.64 hits that will roll a 3+ to effect the vehicle. that are ap 1

blasters against AV 11 will average 1.98 hits. that are ap 2

against av 12 fire dragons will average 2 hits that will roll a 4+ to have an effect at ap1.

against av 12 blasters will average 1.32 hits that roll a 4 to have an effect at ap2.

So against AV 11/12 firedragons are better if they are in range than blasters, but blasters have more range and are better then firedragons outside of melta versus av13/14.

I tend to see lots of av12+, mostly av 13+, be it wave serpents, knights, battlewagons.

I don't think anyone is saying firedragons are bad, they are completely amazing when in melta range, but they are not amazing outside of melta range whereas other units perform better than them.

 Jimsolo wrote:
You seem to think I am saying 'Fire Dragons are bad and/or not preferable to Scourges,' despite me explicitly saying otherwise several times.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The number of slot/detachments available in some events may necessitate using Scourges, as well as collection limitations. After all, we're discussing DE primary armies here, so Eldar are usually going to be the allies, not the main event.

Not sure about Swooping Hawks, but compared to Fire Dragons, the Scourges are dirt cheap.

I never said that. At all. While people were discussing which weapon to put on Scourges (Heat Lances vs Haywire Blasters), you made the assertion that there was no point in taking either form of Scourge; that Swooping Hawks and Fire Dragons were better.

MY reply was an attempt to validate the weapon loadout conversation, because your list can't always fit Swooping Hawks/Fire Dragons because A) the event might not let you have allies at all, B) the event might limit what kind/how many detachments you can have, C) you might need more anti-tank and not have the slots left over in your Eldar detachment(s), D) you might need anti-tank and not have enough points left over to fit the Fire Dragons, or E) you might not have those particular models, and would like other effective options, which the Scourges definitely are.

Because all of these reasons may affect someone, the haywire blaster/heat lance discussion remains a valid one. That was my only (inital) point.

Actually you keep adding criteria. First it was too hard for people to acquire the models and now its some strange stance on event restrictions. What event, anywhere, disallows a second detachment of some kind let alone allies? It just wreaks to me of a cheap counter to their inclusion when, again with no disrespect, you yourself keep advocating solutions that require way more detachments/sources. I get it you don't like CWE, for a while I didn't, but I'd rather convert the feth out of my now crappy DE tureborn adding black ark dragon capes and using them as if they were in our book. Same with hawks, they can literally be made FROM a scourge kit. Heck find a way to make then out of your hellions because god knows when you will ever see that model hitting a table again.

This is a tactical discussion and whether you like it or not DE need allies in order to stay competitive without spamming. I would love to be able to field a pure 1850 DE list that could handle anything but thanks to things like Knights and formations it's not realistic.

I can't speak for you folks but I'd much rather field a list full of one of units that can handle any situation then MSU spamming 12 venoms multiple razorwings and lamhaens as HQ's, because honestly thats the type of pure DE list you end up with.

have you guys even considered the new ravager? What the F do I mean? Take that third aspect from a shrine, make it dark reapers and put them in a raider, you now have a mobile (slow and purposeful for the win!) unit that can jink (3+!) ignores opponent jinking while being TL on such targets and can fire S8 OR S5 ap3 basically acting as both a dissy ravager AND a dark lance ravager. Oh and did I mention it's BS5 too?

So for my time and money the best solution to all our AV headaches is just ONE aspect shrine for +1 BS fielding a single uinit of hawks, fire dragons and dark reapers. That still leaves tons of room for our own kind while opening amazing doors for converting (seriously how awesome do Black Serpents, Bone Millers and Tengu sound?) and freeing us up from spamming dark light from less effective slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
It doesn't need to be in melta range but when its not str8 struggles against av 13-14.

4 out of 5 hitting is good, but outside of melta range against AV 13 that's a 5+ to have an effect, so 1.32 of those shots will do something before any cover saves/inv saves.

5 blasters at 18 range at BS 4 is 3.3 hits, lets say 3.

3 hits that have an effect on a 4+ so 1.5 of those shots will do something, with twice the chance to pen than a firedragon outside of melta range.

So yes, Firedragons are effective outside of melta range, but are not as effective as a standard blaster.

so no, not better than any other DE unit that can carry blasters.

The +1 to vehicle damage is big, but only comes into play 1/6th of the time against AV 13 and cannot do anything to av 14 outside of melta range.

against AV 11 rhinos they will average 2.64 hits that will roll a 3+ to effect the vehicle. that are ap 1

blasters against AV 11 will average 1.98 hits. that are ap 2

against av 12 fire dragons will average 2 hits that will roll a 4+ to have an effect at ap1.

against av 12 blasters will average 1.32 hits that roll a 4 to have an effect at ap2.

So against AV 11/12 firedragons are better if they are in range than blasters, but blasters have more range and are better then firedragons outside of melta versus av13/14.

I tend to see lots of av12+, mostly av 13+, be it wave serpents, knights, battlewagons.

I don't think anyone is saying firedragons are bad, they are completely amazing when in melta range, but they are not amazing outside of melta range whereas other units perform better than them.

Dude, where does it say your I'm only taking fire dragons in my post? There should still be plenty of answers in your list to av13 and btw you'd be insane for not deepstriking firedragons against such threats, another incredibly easy thing to do with our army as primary. Dragons are better then any other AT unit on our book for their cost. If you can't see that then I guess it's just not for you, I'd rather not take 20+ darklight weapons on the dsame selections to do a job 1-3 allied CWE units can do.

Also how do you figure lance fire is a better solution to imperial knights then fire dragons?

Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

What's the difference between ones you can take alone? How do you know?

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

.
This ^^
Scourge combined with high elves with the magical bows and you have my hawks, vampire counts hex wraiths, shredders and some wyches and you have my warp spiders, dark reapers im still working on ideas, but tbh the aspect formation is such a boon for DE. Personally ive just started looking at all the Eldar race as one and am now just taking as I see fit. I can see both sides of the argument in regards to scourges and dragons, both have merits and disadvantages take what you need. Knights? DS some dragons in a raider using the angle trick, parking lot? need some cheap AT that comes fully capable, scourges. Its true, the effective range of dragons is quite large, but footslogging theoretically is fantastic, in reality, those dragons would not get anywhere near me. Atleast scourges have the ability to bypass my ability to kite with DS. Pros and Cons.

So on the topic of DE I noticed ITC now allows 3 sources. I realize its a tournament and limiting sources is basically a house rule, but a lot of tournaments across the country (maybe abroad?) use this format.

There is not allowed duplication of formations iirc but it would allow you to take In a pure DE list under their format RSR/CAD/ALLIED detachments for a total of 10 fast attack slots at a cost of 3 hq slots and 5 troop slots. would also get 7 HS, and 7 elite slots.

blaktoof wrote:
So on the topic of DE I noticed ITC now allows 3 sources. I realize its a tournament and limiting sources is basically a house rule, but a lot of tournaments across the country (maybe abroad?) use this format.

There is not allowed duplication of formations iirc but it would allow you to take In a pure DE list under their format RSR/CAD/ALLIED detachments for a total of 10 fast attack slots at a cost of 3 hq slots and 5 troop slots. would also get 7 HS, and 7 elite slots.

Yea that's true, not sure why you would need 10 FA or if you'd get much out of it after the 3HQ/5T tax. What were you considering?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Red Corsair, don't you need to take a Guardian/Windrider Host in order to get the Aspect Host formation?

Nope, it is one of the formations that can be taken by its lonesome which is why I think it is such a great answer to some of our issues. I am not taking D, I am not taking jetbikes and I am not taking a gargantuan or tooled up psychers just a trio of specialists that frankly we should have had as well, but the more I am looking at it, with allies does it really mater that much if it's in our book? Just have a crazy time converting aspects as if they were in our book.

What's the difference between ones you can take alone? How do you know?

Some of the units are actual formations, which have there own additional perks and are a separate data card in the book where as some are just listed as auxiliary options on the decurion style formation. Basically the fallowing are formations that can be selected by themselves:

-The 3 guardian hosts (storm, defender, and windrider)
-Dire avenger Shrine
-Aspect Shrine
-Wraithhost
-Seer Council

 Red Corsair wrote:

Actually you keep adding criteria. First it was too hard for people to acquire the models and now its some strange stance on event restrictions. What event, anywhere, disallows a second detachment of some kind let alone allies?

Seriously, yours DON'T? That's the most common type of event restriction I see. Either 'One detachment only,' 'One source only,' or 'one CAD and one Allied Detachment only.' If the groups you run around in let you field as many as you want, I envy you. Where do you live, lol?! I'm coming there for some tourneys, stat!

I haven't seen a SINGLE event since 7th dropped that allowed 1) formations of any kind, 2) more than one CAD, or 3) more than one allied detachment.

No sarcasm, seriously, that's great. I wish we could all live in an environment as permissive as that.

It just wreaks to me of a cheap counter to their inclusion when, again with no disrespect, you yourself keep advocating solutions that require way more detachments/sources. I get it you don't like CWE, for a while I didn't...

I don't know where you're getting this from. I'm not arguing against their inclusion, I've poured buckets of time over the last month or so into trying to convince people to do MORE allying with the various Eldar factions, and how powerful those alliances can be. About a year or so ago 'you don't like CWE' would have been a fair accusation to level against me, but these days its baseless.

This is a tactical discussion and whether you like it or not DE need allies in order to stay competitive without spamming. I would love to be able to field a pure 1850 DE list that could handle anything but thanks to things like Knights and formations it's not realistic.

Dark Eldar are indeed, much better with allies. Please, search my recent post history to establish my track record on THAT. I've been saying that Imperium, Chaos, and Eldar groups should all consider their various armies as one big army each. (Each group, that is.)

I can't speak for you folks but I'd much rather field a list full of one of units that can handle any situation then MSU spamming 12 venoms multiple razorwings and lamhaens as HQ's, because honestly thats the type of pure DE list you end up with.

So would I. Lhamaens as HQs make my skin crawl. Fortunately, DE can be fielded, competitively even, without having to make this kind of list.

A) I love allying Eldar to Dark Eldar. Nothing makes me happier than a list which embodies the spiteful, racist, arrogance of elves.
B) Eldar and Dark Eldar together are GREAT!
C) Fire Dragons are categorically better than Scourges in an anti-tank capacity, when in a transport.
D) They are also more expensive.
E) If, for whatever reason, you cannot field a unit of Fire Dragons in a Dark Eldar primary list, then Scourges are also a very capable anti-armor unit.

To my knowledge, our only point of contention is that you do not think C) requires the disclaimer about transports or that E) is worth discussing at all because none of the reasons which might bring its relevance about are plausible.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Seriously, yours DON'T? That's the most common type of event restriction I see. Either 'One detachment only,' 'One source only,' or 'one CAD and one Allied Detachment only.' If the groups you run around in let you field as many as you want, I envy you. Where do you live, lol?! I'm coming there for some tourneys, stat!

I haven't seen a SINGLE event since 7th dropped that allowed 1) formations of any kind, 2) more than one CAD, or 3) more than one allied detachment.

So you never see Harliquins or Haemonculus Coven?
Neither can be taken as a CAD or as an Allied Detachment, and don't work as 1 source.
I see a lot of 2 sources, no come the apoc allies. I've seen only 1 CAD, but I have not seen any major event that limits a battle brother formation.

I totally agree with the 3 aspect formation. Perhaps we should look at conversion options.
I'm building dark reapers using DE warriors, modified dark lances, and a head swap with dark elf executioners.
Fire Dragons will be warriors again, with converted blasters, and high elf dragon prince heads.
For Swooping hawks, I'm going to use the feathered wings from scourge. 5 boxes will net me 15 hawks and 10 scourge. Not sure what to use for heads yet.

Any ideas for warp spiders, banshees, scorpions and Shining spears?
Maybe Mandrakes mounted on Sky Boards for warp spiders. I really like the mandrake models and the sky boards, fitting them both in makes me happy.

And yeah, my Dark Eldar force will be the Cabal of Envy.

-Matt

So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

The problem with wyches is they are pretty naked, meaning that they don't portray 4+ armor all that well. I guess mandrakes on skyboards don't really look like 3+ either. I just thought the fluff behind the mandrakes matches the warpspiders jumps pretty well.

-Matt

Lol, I sure liked it! Maybe I will put some kind of Incubi on jetboards...

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

As far as conversions go, using Hellions as the base for Warp Spiders sounds cool! Maybe arming them with the chain or net based weapon bits from the various DE bits?

Yeh I used the wych net on one spider conversion of mine, not sure how well it really worked, it was ok, but trying to get another gun into the otherhand didn't work well and I ended up shoulder mounting it (I use shredders as count as spinners - as I dislike the current spider aesthetic)

When it comes to Jetbikers, I've been using the fantasy Wild Riders kit for a while, and other than one snide comment, haven't had any complaints. They've got plenty of upheld or outstretched hands just begging for a weapon swap to hold a ranged gun.

I've gone the dark elf route with the dudes on lizards which has worked really well, I've also used one of the skeletal horses from the mortis engine with a wizard torso, using the DE head with the visor/mask look while using a trophy rack to create the Jetseer, that's probably my favourite of them all so far. check my gallery if you fancy

Howling Banshees: I just had a cool thought. What about taking wyches and using extra masks from the harlequin/wrack kits to cover their faces? Would that be as cool as it looks in my head?

I am using the fantasy witch elves, they have those crazy dynamic poses, come with masked DE looking scary heads, those reems of hair too. I give them some nice big glaives and they look sooooo sweet

Also, why won't they let you use coven?

 Gamerely wrote:
So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Welcome to our brave new Decurion world, where Necrons are basically unkillable. Trying to kill them through shooting is a fool's errand. The only way I've seen to reliably remove Decurion Necrons in large numbers is to sweep them in assault. The only two units that DE have which can do this decently are Covens Grotseques and Talos, as the Freakish Spectacle rule is a godsend in helping them fail leadership so they can be swept.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah, Matt: I see a frequent de facto ban on Haemonculus Covens or Harlies. In point of fact, since adopting Covens as my primary army, I haven't been allowed to use them outside of a friendly game. I just switched clubs and the primary TO at the new one says they will eventually include rules which will allow them, but so far all the events discussed will still exclude my main force.

I was shocked your meta is so restrictive when you post stuff like this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/647025.page
Great tactical lists and ideas, all illegal in your meta.
I thought about trying to use incubi as scorpions, but conversions issues aside, I think I'd rather have incubi.

Even in an environment of CAD + ALLY as only detachment options (so no formations), I'd still run Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Swooping Hawks, but then I'd be "forced" to pick up an HQ and Troop to make it an ally detachment. So banshee mask autarch to lead my reavers and a squad of scatterbikes to meet required core.
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had another thought for dark reapers.
Cold one Knights come with evil looks heads with huge spikes on the sides. Looks kind of similar in style to the reaper range finders.

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

sweetbacon wrote:

 Gamerely wrote:
So just had my first resounding loss. Decurion straight up crushed my skull in, had to concede on turn 3. Tried to outshoot them, not a smart idea apparently. Those things are insanely durable. Is the best tactic to wrap them up in combat? Also, apparently I was using Raiders COMPLETELY wrong. For some reason i thought their combat speed was 12 so I was moving 12 and firing the units inside at full BS. That.... is kind of really mega terrible.

Welcome to our brave new Decurion world, where Necrons are basically unkillable. Trying to kill them through shooting is a fool's errand. The only way I've seen to reliably remove Decurion Necrons in large numbers is to sweep them in assault. The only two units that DE have which can do this decently are Covens Grotseques and Talos, as the Freakish Spectacle rule is a godsend in helping them fail leadership so they can be swept.

I watched a batrep where a covens detachment absolutely demolished a Decurion. It was one of the guys on here I believe. That does sound good though. Maybe bring some reavers to get them tied up, deep strike the grots with haemys. March on in?

@Jimsolo- I think we really are actually in agreement and somewhere along thwe line you may have been playing devils advocate (which is welcome to me) or arguing another point and I missed your message. I then got annoyed discussing restrictions because the ones you were suggesting sounded made up, I am really sorry you have such a bland meta mate! Seriously, in my meta anything goes, forgeworld, unlimited detachments and even unbound. We have an awesome crew and nobody will do anything extremely douchie more then once for the experiment. During large GT's there is much more comp generally taken from Adepticon (ITC) but the missions are generally homegrown with a theme or book maelstrom.

Do you live in the North East mate? Because I live in Maine haha, your always welcome here but I doubt your near by.

So yea just to clear the air and reiterate because I respect your voice so much, sorry our signals were crossed and truely sorry your meta is so incredibly restrictive. Like Matt said, after your article I would never have guessed you couldn't field any of those ideas.

In my experience Unbound isn't even a problem, I have actually played almost entirely themed awesome lists from it and nothing cheesier then you'd see from bound. I played 3 baneblade variants in a 1500 RTT with my TAC marines and beat him by 1 VP on the missions, one more turn and he had a good shot at tabling me. It was an AWESOME game!

For conversions I am going to use black ark lizard cloaks and black guard heads for my fire dragons and I am going to use Executioners skull masks for my dark reapers and I will convert scourge HW's (probably HL's) to make to reaper launchers. My hawks I want to use Wasp wings and bike helmets with small skyboard thrusters as the thorax. I think I'll use plastic card and sculpt the wings since getting others is proving expensive unless anyone else knows an awesome source.

For warp spiders I really want to use a more coven theme and give them sumps with extra limbs to get up to 8 and I'll use shredders for their guns. Lord knows I have enough shredders lol.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

Reapers are S&P (unless my battle scribe source data is wrong) so no need for the transport to move & shoot. I thought about sticking them in a venom to give them 12" move but realized there's no need with 36/48" range on the main guns/upgrades.

I'm planning to run squads of five since that's the box size (although getting a box will be another issue). I'll put them high up in cover and use the money saved on transports to upgrade to the S8 guns.

lustigjh wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Reapers would hijack a dedicated transport (since they can move and fire) and Dragons would start in a FA venom.

-Matt

Now back to tactics, how many reapers do you take in a squad, given that they are going to be mounted in a raider.

-Matt

Reapers are S&P (unless my battle scribe source data is wrong) so no need for the transport to move & shoot. I thought about sticking them in a venom to give them 12" move but realized there's no need with 36/48" range on the main guns/upgrades.

I'm planning to run squads of five since that's the box size (although getting a box will be another issue). I'll put them high up in cover and use the money saved on transports to upgrade to the S8 guns.

Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

I'd assume to have them mobile, open top means they are getting to where they need and shooting without getting out. If I ran em I'd do the same cause sitting in cover waiting for things to shoot isn't the DE/CWE way haha

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

Well, I like having the flexibility of being able to deepstrike/enter from reserves and I also think you will find that you will be able to draw LOS much easier from the raider since they can all shoot from ANY point of the hull. I also like the extra layer of protection since your forcing your opponent to kill a raider first which is actually difficult from 48" away with a 3+ cover save. Remember those reapers have a 3+ but they are also only T3 while that raider makes them immune to small arms fire.

Say you come up against another eldar player with scatter laser bikes, he now has to use a minimum of two units to get those reapers of the table, and you can bet he will want them dead since they ignore jink and windrider armor. That deepstrike will also allow you to get the alpha on another unit first, potentially two since the raider will have a disintegrator.

At the end of the day you can still get great mileage from a unit on foot, but I think you will find that they are much more potent inside a transport or even a bastion if thats the route you want to take.

lustigjh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Honestly you can't go wrong with 3 reapers including the exarch in a raider upgraded to have starshot missiles. 184pts including the raider with night shields and it puts out 7 s5 ap3 or 4 s8 ap3 shots a turn with the ability to move and shoot and jink and retain full BS all with reaper range finders and BS 5 from a shrine. It's my new faux ravager, does a better job of either a dissy or lance ravager on one unit, hard to miss. I'll bump it to 5 members depending on game size but I think 5 is the limit or you make it too juicy of a target.

What's your rationale for putting them in a raider over saving points and placing them in ruins? They do have a 3+ armor save already and the raider could go towards being a splinter boat or fire dragon taxi. I can see the benefit of a 12" move but they also become harder to hide out of LOS.

If I've got line of sight blocking terrain, I'll nose in behind it and swing out the back end into line of sight. Jink, + night shield + obscured = 2+ cover save. Crack that before you get to shoot back at my reapers.
In the open, it drops to 'only' 3+ cover. Forcing an opponent to deal with AV10 HP3 and 2+ or 3+ cover before they can start plinking away at T3 3+ makes them a lot more durable.
I'm going with venom for the fire dragons; chances of me wanting to deep strike is greater, and I want the smaller foot print. Even if I don't deep strike, it is a lot easier to hide a venom on approach than a raider.
Just built the first mandrake hellion hybrid for the warp spider stand in... I like it a lot, might have to get another box of mandrakes to make more than just 5.

-Matt

@HawaiiMatt- Yes, it's a bitter irony that the tactics I work to help other people play and develop I cannot use in competitive play myself. (I still play my lists and tactics against other friends' tourney lists; I wouldn't promote the idea if I didn't think it was viable.) Kinda feel like Moses looking into the promised land sometimes. (My old club was so restrictive they frequently put 40% troop minimum requirements into events, and they disallowed E-codexes altogether.) Still, the new TO says he will loosen up the restrictions, so I'm going to remain optimistic.

@RedCorsair- I take with my army when I travel, so if I'm ever in Maine I'll look you guys up!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally, I'm always in favor of putting units in transports when possible. There are very few units that DON'T benefit from two extra hull points and either a 3+ cover or a 4+ cover and a 5+ invulnerable, especially in the space elf armies.

I'd love to play with you man! Same goes to any other dakkanaut in my neck of the woods (literally lol) PM me if your ever in the north east looking for a game!

I think I know exactly how I am going to approach warp spiders and dark reapers but I am still working the kinks out of fire dragons and hawks. I still like the wasp idea but it is going to take some creativity not breaking the bank on blight drone wings lol.

Reaper miniatures sells a five-pack of fairy wing sets if you like. I used them on a set of scourges, and they look wonderful.

Ah, firing from any point on the vehicle makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that...aspect...of the transport

Jimsolo wrote:Reaper miniatures sells a five-pack of fairy wing sets if you like. I used them on a set of scourges, and they look wonderful.

Spoiler:

Awesome! Thanks!

lustigjh wrote:Ah, firing from any point on the vehicle makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that...aspect...of the transport

Hehe

I was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for the optimum Grotesquerie unit size? I am a big fan of Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, but if one isn't going to go full Grot bomb, what is the best squad size for the formation? Two squads of four? Asymmetrical squad sizes, one small squad and one larger squad WWP'd in? Just wanted to hear any recommendations based on experience.

Two units of four in Raiders is my preference. That way the haemmy can take one, and another character (in my Freakshows, usually the Armor of Misery Archon) takes the other.

Interesting. Thanks Jimsolo. Why the AoM Archon instead of the Succubus though? Points?

I second the 2 squads of 4 with raider. It seems to work the best and has even more survivability. For me a big squad with WWP is beaten very easily so tried it once they killed one squad and slowly moved around the board until they died.

Incognito15 wrote:
I second the 2 squads of 4 with raider. It seems to work the best and has even more survivability. For me a big squad with WWP is beaten very easily so tried it once they killed one squad and slowly moved around the board until they died.

Is the Raider what gives the smaller squad more survivability versus the larger WWP squad?

sweetbacon wrote:
Interesting. Thanks Jimsolo. Why the AoM Archon instead of the Succubus though? Points?

Either would work, I suppose. I like the archon because I have cooler Archon models, lol. You could even have a codex haemmie if you liked. I do like that Archons have access to both useful ranged and CC options, though.

I use both sizes in my current list (one with 10 and one with 4) to fill different roles. My large squad has a Haemie with AoM, Banshee Mask Archon, and Farseer (warlord), while the smaller squad has the formation Haemie and a Raider with Enhanced Aethersails. I use the larger squad as my "death star" that soaks up a LOT of attention. Most people in my meta have ignored it and let the unit ravage their ranks. The smaller squad is used as a counter-assault unit if my opponent wants to deep strike and/or moves fast.

I prefer Haemies if I'm using the Grotesquerie formation because it expediates the Power from Pain rule that makes these units work so well. The Grotesques will bruise enough noses that you do not need another hard hitter in the squad.

I read earlier that someone had a hard time with a Decurion, I wanted to let them know that my Grotesques wiped the board clean of all but 3 Jet pack models by turn 6.

But going small works too, I had my unit of 4 Grots and Haemie tie up 6 Mega Nobs (Assault variant), a squad of 5 lychguard, and a Scythe wielding Overlord for 5 rounds of combat while my large squad obliterated the center field.

The key to using Grotesques is to either neutralize or avoid the units that by pass their survivability through Instant Death. Strength 10 and Force weapons need to be the primary focus of your shooting attacks.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
I use both sizes in my current list (one with 10 and one with 4) to fill different roles. My large squad has a Haemie with AoM, Banshee Mask Archon, and Farseer (warlord), while the smaller squad has the formation Haemie and a Raider with Enhanced Aethersails. I use the larger squad as my "death star" that soaks up a LOT of attention. Most people in my meta have ignored it and let the unit ravage their ranks. The smaller squad is used as a counter-assault unit if my opponent wants to deep strike and/or moves fast.

I prefer Haemies if I'm using the Grotesquerie formation because it expediates the Power from Pain rule that makes these units work so well. The Grotesques will bruise enough noses that you do not need another hard hitter in the squad.

I read earlier that someone had a hard time with a Decurion, I wanted to let them know that my Grotesques wiped the board clean of all but 3 Jet pack models by turn 6.

But going small works too, I had my unit of 4 Grots and Haemie tie up 6 Mega Nobs (Assault variant), a squad of 5 lychguard, and a Scythe wielding Overlord for 5 rounds of combat while my large squad obliterated the center field.

The key to using Grotesques is to either neutralize or avoid the units that by pass their survivability through Instant Death. Strength 10 and Force weapons need to be the primary focus of your shooting attacks.

That's a really interesting approach. It's half Grot bomb/half small unit. Other than maybe the 4+FNP, what is generally the most useful ability from the Latest Experiment table for them?

Depends on your opponent, but T6 is another favorite of mine. Str 6 helps against the av 12 for space marine drop pods and dreads though. The rest is garbage in my opinion.

T6 is my favorite, but there really aren't any bad options. I even put the Sump on my Haemmy in case I get fleet.

 Jimsolo wrote:
T6 is my favorite, but there really aren't any bad options. I even put the Sump on my Haemmy in case I get fleet.

I could go without shred.... we already have that against t4 and below and those models that are t5 or higher tend to be in smaller squads anyways.

If I have to fight a GC or MC, I'd really like it. Rage is the one that's kinda 'meh' to me.

+1 T is my absolute favorite though.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If I have to fight a GC or MC, I'd really like it. Rage is the one that's kinda 'meh' to me.

+1 T is my absolute favorite though.

Yeah, I would have to agree that the + 1 T or the + 1 Str are probably the best as it means they can't be ID's by Str 10 and/or they don't have to flee in terror from Dreadnoughts. I have a regular opponent who plays Space Wolves and I'm hoping to roll the +1 T against him to help me chew through his TWC PF/TH/SS death star.

But I do agree that Rage is kind of pointless since they already have Rampage. If I had to rank them in order of what I hope to roll, it would be:

1. + 1 T
2. + 1 Str
3. 4+ FNP
4. Fleet
5. Shred
6. Rage

For me Rage would rank higher than Shred as they reroll to wound against a lot of things to begin with.

For my money, it's

Toughness
Strength
FNP
Shred
Fleet
Rage

But none of them disappoint me.

1. +1 toughness/ fnp
2. +1 str
3. Rage
4. Fleet
5. Shred

I believe that it is more important for grotesques to survive than to hit harder. Grotesques benefit from the +1 T or fnp in every phase once they hit the board. Everything else only affects the combat phases.

sweetbacon wrote:
I was wondering if anybody has any suggestions for the optimum Grotesquerie unit size? I am a big fan of Mushkilla's Grot bomb tactics, but if one isn't going to go full Grot bomb, what is the best squad size for the formation? Two squads of four? Asymmetrical squad sizes, one small squad and one larger squad WWP'd in? Just wanted to hear any recommendations based on experience.

I like to use both units of 3 Grots. This ensures you will essentially always be outnumbered when you charge, so you can get your Rampage on. I've found 3 is enough to do a lot of damage without sinking tons of points into the unit in case they get spanked by some S10 or D shots before they get to do their damage.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
1. +1 toughness/ fnp
2. +1 str
3. Rage
4. Fleet
5. Shred

I believe that it is more important for grotesques to survive than to hit harder. Grotesques benefit from the +1 T or fnp in every phase once they hit the board. Everything else only affects the combat phases.

This is a very good point, I think Grots are underrated in their role as a deadly tarpit unit that will tie up and grind down other tough units over several turns. There pretty much the only DE unit other than Talos that I don't mind going toe to toe with Necron Wraiths.

Dependings on drugs, wyches have a good shot at stalling them. If you can get the +1 T drug, wyches are going to give them headaches. 4++ and FnP is not something the wraiths like.

Beast Packs can force the issue of targeting as well.
~48 S4 attacks on the charge can put a good dent into most necron units, doing it for 120 points with the speed of being a beast is pretty huge.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Dependings on drugs, wyches have a good shot at stalling them. If you can get the +1 T drug, wyches are going to give them headaches. 4++ and FnP is not something the wraiths like.

Beast Packs can force the issue of targeting as well.
~48 S4 attacks on the charge can put a good dent into most necron units, doing it for 120 points with the speed of being a beast is pretty huge.

-Matt

Both are interesting approaches and could be fun to try. I do worry about Leadership with the Wyches though. Unless you stick a Coven Haemie in with them to make them Fearless. As for the Beast Pack, I know that's a lot of attacks, but I've seen Decurion Necron Warriors shrug off an insane amount of damage with only a few casualties. And you'd have the same Leadership issue as Khymera have terrible Leadership. You could put a Beast Master in with them to boost it, but it's still not that great. Plus 5 ++ just isn't that survivable. Sigh. The nerf to Beast Packs really makes it hard to justify taking them over Scourges, RWJ, Reavers, or just more Venoms.

I still love 12 clawed fiends with baharoth leading them lol. It has a weakness to s10 but as long as baharoth is out front you can soak a bit. The thing is usually in combat turn 2 anyway and it hits like a brick. I know it has too many hard counters to be competitive but it is so much fun to run.

Hmm. What's B-Roth bring to the party? Not super familiar.

I ran an 8 fiend pack with a beastmaster, Jain zar, and baharroth (occasionally in the pack) this past Saturday at a tournament. Jain Z makes the pack amazing with her banshee mask, fear, -2 leadership, and 6" aura of -5 WS/I debuff. It's like having psychic powers without the need to test for them.

Baharroth adds in another 2+ eternal warrior tank, a 12" move to keep up, and hit & run to the unit. I find special B a good character to add, but not always necessary. There are only a few units that I would absolutely need hit & run for, and those I can usually shoot down or kite with the pack.

Both phoenix lords are also fearless and come with the warlord trait of +3" to run. Rolling that 6 and seeing the fiends move 20" in a turn is quite frightening to some opponents...

I see (or hear of) a lot of people using beastpacks, Rhyper, but I've never really seen the appeal. Obviously Fiends dish out a great amount of decent strength attacks, but with no AP. I find that, with the high volume of poisoned (yet high-AP) fire that Dark Eldar can dish out, lightly armoured units (i.e. the kind that fiends would excel against) aren't a problem. I would have thought that points (especially allied Eldar points, if you're getting Baharroth and/or Jain Zar) would be better spent on things that can deal with MEQ/TEQ.

Also, even with Baharroth taking with his 2+, I can't see the beast pack being that durable now they don't have easy access to Shrouded and without a Farseer to Fortune them. And surely Jain Zar slows the unit down?

You probably haven't faced many super courts in a decurion, then. I once inflicted 80+ wounds in a single shooting phase on such a unit and only removed 2 models. Close combat is definitely the way to go against them for hope of sweeping them in combat and I'd be more tempted by the beastpacks myself if coven units didn't do such a bang-up job of it.

Jain Z doesn't slow the unit down. She only moves 6", but with an additional +3" to their run, she actually makes the pack faster. Combat is great with her as (except against WS 8+), the fiends are hitting on 3's and wounding fairly easily with strength 5. Tying up a unit in CC is more advantageous than shooting too, as typically the units I assault want to shoot, so removing that option from them for a turn is a win in my book.

Fiends also have 6 attacks each on the charge, 4 if multicharging or otherwise. Drowning an opponent in saves is a viable tactic with them especially.

The Fiends + Jain Zair idea looks like it could be pretty fun. Personally, though, I'd much rather pair her up with a Grotesquerie as I prefer Grots to Fiends, due to their bonuses from Latest Experiment and the Covens PfP table.

Fun fact of the day:

Cegorach's Revenge + Grotesquerie = 1850 points.

And it's great fun using Harlies as the rapier and Grotesques as the big bashy hammer. Grot units are a great place to put your Shadowseers and the 3++ Solitiare that rerolls 1s on saves fears nothing.

 Rypher wrote:
Jain Z doesn't slow the unit down. She only moves 6", but with an additional +3" to their run, she actually makes the pack faster. Combat is great with her as (except against WS 8+), the fiends are hitting on 3's and wounding fairly easily with strength 5. Tying up a unit in CC is more advantageous than shooting too, as typically the units I assault want to shoot, so removing that option from them for a turn is a win in my book.

Fiends also have 6 attacks each on the charge, 4 if multicharging or otherwise. Drowning an opponent in saves is a viable tactic with them especially.

Wow, great call on Jain. I was used to sticking with Birdman from the last book and because hit and run is so good. I may need to try her next time.

To also address the why bring the pack question; it's a great tool since it has a large footprint and can multi many units that are a pain or it can focus on super durable units and sweep them. It's a similar principle to why people brought massive packs with the last book, only now fiends are better sine the pack caps out at a smaller number and since every member can be a fiend. 12 brings 36 T5 wounds and 72 S5 attacks on the charge...pretty brutal.

Tonight's matchup @1500 pts.... I'm going against a player who will bring some combination of Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Knights (owns 2 with lancer), or Tyrannids.

Corpsethief Claw (every model is uniquely equipped)
Masque with 2 Shadowseers and a Jester with the Troupes in Weavers, Voidweaver. Each Troupe Master has a caress and two models in each unit have kisses.

I shall pwn or be pwned. I'll let people know how it goes...

UPDATE: Tabled him in turn four outside of a couple drop pods. I only lost a Starweaver and four Harlies.

Play of the Game: A Troupe Master killed his Librarian Dreadnight Warlord in a single turn of combat.

mercury14 wrote:
Play of the Game: A Troupe Master killed his Librarian Dreadnight Warlord in a single turn of combat.

Oh geez. I'm not familiar with harlies - How'd you do it?

lustigjh wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Play of the Game: A Troupe Master killed his Librarian Dreadnight Warlord in a single turn of combat.

Oh geez. I'm not familiar with harlies - How'd you do it?

If I remember right, the troop master can take a weapon that auto pebs or glances on a six to hit

DirtyDeeds wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

mercury14 wrote:
Play of the Game: A Troupe Master killed his Librarian Dreadnight Warlord in a single turn of combat.

Oh geez. I'm not familiar with harlies - How'd you do it?

If I remember right, the troop master can take a weapon that auto pebs or glances on a six to hit

Harlequin's Caress; 6 to hit is an auto wound at AP2, vs vehicles, a 6 to hit is an auto glance.

Mmmmm those harlies do make for some fun speedy assaults haha

So guys I am asking for advice. Want to run a Dark Eldar/Harlequin force, I dont care the mix up except that I cant run 5 talos as i dont have the models. Otherwise everything is fair game.

1850 tournament, predominent Eldar/Necron, the last 2 tournaments I have been to I am 0-2 vs Eldar and 0-1 vs Necrons.

What are some of the lists that have been successful for you lately with Dark Eldar or are we all resorting to allying Eldar in.

I've been allying either Harlies or Eldar in, a la the Freakshow tactics.

Havent ran the freakshow but I think I am going to try this:

Haemonculus - Something (have 30 pts)

5x Warriors - Venom SC
5x Warriors - Venom SC

4x Grotesque - Raider

6x Reavers - 2x CC
6x Reavers - 2x CC

3x Ravagers - 3x DL

5x Fire Dragons - Wave Serpent SC
10x Dire Avengers - PW/SS - Wave Serpent SC
10x Warp Spiders -
(this is Aspect Host all have Exarch)

Thoughts?

Here's my list for tonight @2,500 points, unknown opponent:

CORPSETHIEF CLAW

GROTESQUERIE, 5x Grotesques/3x Grotesques, Abberation with agonizer, Haemi warlord

Covenite Coterie
- Haemis w/scissorhands, vexator masks
- 7x Wracks, Acothyst w/scissorhands
- Raider with NS

- Haemis w/scissorhands, vexator masks
- 7x Wracks, Acothyst w/scissorhands
- Raider with NS

- 5x Wracks, Osse
- Venom

2x Cronos, probes

DARK ELDAR ALLIED DETACHMENT
- Archon, WWP, blaster
- Beast Pack, 11x Khymera, 1x Beastmaster

- 10x Kabalite Warriors, dark lance

- Voidraven Bomber, flickerfield, 4x Shatterfield Missiles

2500

I think I'm going to wreck face with this list. And the 13-model beastpack coming out of his backfield should be terrifying.

Hey Merc,
List looks like a great list. How are you running the beast pack? as a DS with the archon? As I can't see any other way for them to come from the backfield?

Also, are you footslogging your grotesquerie? Hows that panned out for ya? suppose alongside the CTC they provide some tough support.

mercury14 wrote:

CORPSETHIEF CLAW
GROTESQUERIE
Covenite Coterie
DARK ELDAR ALLIED DETACHMENT

Not legal. The restriction in the allied detachment,
"All units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or no faction)."

And on pave 118, under Factions
In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the nits described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

That makes Haemonculus Covens the Dark Eldar Faction, and the Allied detachments prevents you from running Dark Eldar as your primary, and taking Dark Eldar in an allied detachment.

Yeah, you may take Realspace Raiders or good ol' CAD, but not an Allied Detachment.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

CORPSETHIEF CLAW
GROTESQUERIE
Covenite Coterie
DARK ELDAR ALLIED DETACHMENT

Not legal. The restriction in the allied detachment,
"All units chosen must have a different faction to any of the units in your primary detachment (or no faction)."

And on pave 118, under Factions
In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the nits described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of.

That makes Haemonculus Covens the Dark Eldar Faction, and the Allied detachments prevents you from running Dark Eldar as your primary, and taking Dark Eldar in an allied detachment.

Ah, good call. Swapped it out for a CAD using 2x5 Kabalites.

Also I forgot to mention a Voidraven Bomber in the list with Shatterfield missiles and FF.

Solar Shock wrote:
Hey Merc,
List looks like a great list. How are you running the beast pack? as a DS with the archon? As I can't see any other way for them to come from the backfield?

Also, are you footslogging your grotesquerie? Hows that panned out for ya? suppose alongside the CTC they provide some tough support.

Yeah, footslogging the Grotesquerie. Footslogging Grotesques works out great for me because what are people going to do, shoot em? In a list with two Cronoses? Maybe in cover? Assault them? And they'll keep the Talos from getting swarmed...

And yeah, The Archon is bringing a full beastpack through a WWP. Turn three should be terrifying as I dont see many Talos/Cronos/Grots getting gunned down on the way in, plus the Khymera and bomber should be there. And I'll probably just rush the Wracks to draw fire if need be.

Depends on your meta. If your meta likes to play with str d, you could run into some issues.

DirtyDeeds wrote:
Depends on your meta. If your meta likes to play with str d, you could run into some issues.

It has some strength D. This is a new opponent that I've never met before who's new to the area so I don't know what to expect.

But honestly 12" Wraithcannons and scythes might need until turn two to fire and by then they'll be overwhelmed. And I can always direct my Wracks their way since they're riding in the vehicles. If I can make them deal with Wracks their D won't be difficult to deal with.

UPDATE: He showed up with pure Eldar, two Aspect Hosts and a CAD with 2 Farseers, 3 Falcons, Serpents, lots of Dire Avengers. I rolled him, turn four was a massacre seeing me win five assaults. My losses for the game: one Wrack unit, half my grotesques, one Raider, a Venom, The Khymera, and one Haemi (removed by a DA Exarch's Diresword ability). All my Talos and Cronos survived even though he had an 8-man Dark Reaper unit on the board pounding away...

I posted this in the army lists forum initially, but didn't get any replies and realized this might be a better place for it, since it's more basic DE stuff.

Havent played at all since 5th, and I wasn't an experienced player even then and never played DE in my life.

Thinking of starting up the hobby again, with DE. How does this sound as a start?

745 pts - DE


- Think I might be taking a bit too many blasters/lances for the point level, and the splinter racks are probably wasted with so few warriors? Maybe remove some blasters, add warriors (or some archon tools) would be better. Could drop like 4 blasters and the splinter racks and bump the warrior squads up to full size.

To bump it up to 1k, turn the Trueborns back into Warriors, and add an aspect host

992 - Eldar/DE



Now, reading this thread recently I came across Red Corsairs suggestion of using Dark Reapers in a raider instead of the ravager, and it really made me question whether the Ravager has any purpose at all, does it have any real advantage over raider mounted min squad of aspect host dark reapers?

So that made me think of something like this instead:

Archon
WWP

9x Warriors
blaster
10x Warriors
blaster

Raider w DL,SR
Raider w DL,SR
Raider w DL,night shields

6x Wspider
exarch

5x Firedragons
exarch
DT: Wave Serpent
- scannon
- scat laser
- holofields


3x Dark Reapers
exarch
3x starshot

= 990

Archon deepstrikes with the firedragons.

I feel like I'm a bit low on actual units this way tho, even though it's just one less vehicle than with the two venoms.

Maybe it's just an overall impact of trying to fit in an aspect host at this points level and just having DE native solutions would be more efficient until higher points?

So SM get like ten free tanks just for playing space marines. And they all come with free TL heavy bolters. Riiiight.

Next codex please.

Huh?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Huh?

That is the appropriate reaction to have, yes.

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Huh?

That is the appropriate reaction to have, yes.

I get the feeling you're trying to make some kind of witty commentary, but I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. What do Space Marine tanks have to do with the list that was posted?

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Huh?

That is the appropriate reaction to have, yes.

I get the feeling you're trying to make some kind of witty commentary, but I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. What do Space Marine tanks have to do with the list that was posted?

It was off topic, but if you take two Demi Companies (SM Decurion) from the new Space Marine Codex, then you can take Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods for free.

Back on topic, those lists could work, but I do think that cramming an Aspect Host at such a low point level is PROBABLY hampering you. However, BS 5 shooty bits are never easy to pass up. Just remember that the Fire Dragons cannot Run and Shoot if the Archon is still in the squad. Maybe put them in a Raider instead? It's cheaper and it allows the squad to remain safely embarked in a vehicle AND shoot. It also allows you to bypass an Imperial Knight's shield if you place the vehicle at one of the cross sections to it's shield.

Please stay on topic. Thanks.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Huh?

That is the appropriate reaction to have, yes.

I get the feeling you're trying to make some kind of witty commentary, but I'm just not picking up what you're putting down. What do Space Marine tanks have to do with the list that was posted?

It was off topic, but if you take two Demi Companies (SM Decurion) from the new Space Marine Codex, then you can take Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods for free.

Back on topic, those lists could work, but I do think that cramming an Aspect Host at such a low point level is PROBABLY hampering you. However, BS 5 shooty bits are never easy to pass up. Just remember that the Fire Dragons cannot Run and Shoot if the Archon is still in the squad. Maybe put them in a Raider instead? It's cheaper and it allows the squad to remain safely embarked in a vehicle AND shoot. It also allows you to bypass an Imperial Knight's shield if you place the vehicle at one of the cross sections to it's shield.

Thanks. I'd planned on keeping the archon in the wave serpent and just disembark the firedragons, since I assume I'd use him as my warlord, so wave serpent would be better at keeping him safe than a raider?

Didn't know about the possible void shield bypass when shooting from the transport tho :O

Hmm Seems to me you have two choices;
1)Archon with WWP and dragons in a serpent, DSing in, disembark and then shooting at whatever it is you want dead.
2)Archon with dragons in raider DSing in and killing whatever it is you want dead. Benefits being the raider is OT so you can shoot from any point on the vehicle, compared with the serpent which is now more than likely facing backwards? As you disembark from the rear.


As for your Warlord issue; Yeh he is safer inside a serpent than a raider. But you aren't in a serpent. You disembarked to shoot remember Highly likely the turn the dragons arrive, in your opponents turn he's going to wipe them off the table. If you do the job in a raider you don't have to disembark, so he's actually got another layer of protection compared with the serpent.

Secondly, personally, (don't know what everyone else would do) but if I did disembark from the serpent or have the raider get wrecked, with a shadowfield you could actually have the archon tank for the dragons; yeh he might die, but I would be willing to suggest that the wounds saved from the dragons would mean that they could either hop back into the serpent (or the raider if you disembarked) and do some more damage next turn. Not sure Archon > Firedragons in terms of use post the initial WWP DS and melta.

Any more experienced players willing to chime in on this;
Go in a raider, Archon WWP DS, disembark, melta your chosen unit, have archon tank the incoming fire next turn, Re-embark, move up and shoot another unit?
(by disembarking you give yourself the chance of having the raider survive his return fire, as he'd focus the dragons I would assume) - On a side note, if the raider did get blown up, have the archon leave the unit, then on the following turn your dragons can Battle focus, giving them quite a large threat range anyway.

I go the Raider route. It's fairly effective at wiping 1-2 units, although it also draws a LOT of enemy fire. If you use that to your advantage it's a great pick.

Solar Shock wrote:
Hmm Seems to me you have two choices;
1)Archon with WWP and dragons in a serpent, DSing in, disembark and then shooting at whatever it is you want dead.
2)Archon with dragons in raider DSing in and killing whatever it is you want dead. Benefits being the raider is OT so you can shoot from any point on the vehicle, compared with the serpent which is now more than likely facing backwards? As you disembark from the rear.

The rear issue is easily solved by buying vectored engines. That lets you line up your idea drop and then turning after shooting.
If you're only running 5 fire dragons, you might also have a 3rd option, which is a falcon. It's got better firepower, but would require with a guardian warhost, ally detachment or CAD. With my DE, I'm running 1 or 2 aspect shrines, so the falcon is a no go.

Here's how I'd look at it.
The raider will absorb a bit more fire before everyone on board is tossed out and promptly shot dead.
The serpent/falcon is harder to kill, and the opponent my opt for just killing the fire dragons.
The short range of the firedragons means that an opponent might be able to assault and take it out in combat. I've lost many to guardsmen with krak grenades.

I've shifted from the above 3 options to the truly disposable option.
My Fire Dragons are in a venom and just hoping for the best with the deep strike. It's got a tiny footprint, and between disembark and battle fortune, it's been working well enough.
That's freed up my Archon to do what he does best; escort my grotesques into battle tanking S10, Strength D and force weapon hits with his 2+ invul.
I'm also running a unit of dark reapers, and a raider.
At time of deployment, I can shift Reapers into the venom and webway it with the archon, or leave the Reapers in support and deep strike the dragons via venom. And I still have the option to deep strike the Grotesques and Archon should I want to. That flexibility has served me really well, but more often than not, it's been firedragons in the venom.


-Matt

I can't stress enough how important the WWP is.

I played a game last Saturday, using Scalpel Squadron, RSR and Harlequins Cast of Players for a Freakshow bonanza. Had an Archon with the Raider but didn't bother with a WWP.

Oh my days, I scatter onto the enemy and mishap, rolling a 1 for the table. Warlord, FB, Psychic Defence, gone in one roll.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I can't stress enough how important the WWP is.

I played a game last Saturday, using Scalpel Squadron, RSR and Harlequins Cast of Players for a Freakshow bonanza. Had an Archon with the Raider but didn't bother with a WWP.

Oh my days, I scatter onto the enemy and mishap, rolling a 1 for the table. Warlord, FB, Psychic Defence, gone in one roll.

Yeah, if you put all your eggs in one big basket, better have a WWP. If you go with the much smaller venom, you can get away without the WWP, just don't load it up with expensive dudes, 120 points of infantry is plenty (5 fire dragons w/exarch).

-Matt

Looking to run beastpack for the first time this weekend. Any tips or watchouts? Going to make sure my beastmasters are far away from each other in unit so both cant be picked off by one barrage but other than that anything to watch out for?

What usually makes up your beastpack?

Thanks!

6+ fiends, maybe a beastmaster, and a combat character from Eldar / Harlequins with fearless. Either psychic power them up, or run them as distraction unit meant to sweep smaller units. I'm a huge fan of the fiend pack.

You dont find that the characters slow them down? You like the fiend pack over grotesques?

Are khymerae runnable?

Incognito15 wrote:
You dont find that the characters slow them down?

If it's a big enough unit, you could conga line quite easily. However, it's easier to add a Farseer/Autach with a jetbike to keep up.

A great force multiplier is adding baharroth too.

You like the fiend pack over grotesques?

They do two radical different things in an army. Large beast packs are basically used as distraction units and ablative wound pools for attached characters.

Grotesques are meant to get into CC to bring the pain as fast as possible.

In a Coven list, Grots are really nice.

But, I'm a big fan of the Beast unit as well.

Are khymerae runnable?

Absolutely. Because their sooo cheap and effective.

Another idea I've seen is that since the Beast squad can be really cheap, you could take that Real Space Raider list (6 FA slots), and have 6 cheapo beast units for distraction and objective grabbers.

You dont feel like one has an advantage over the other with these loadouts:

5x Khymerae, 1x Beastmaster, 4x Fiend

or

4x Grotesque - in Raider

I like the beastpack as I dont have to worry so much about my fragile transport being blown up then my effectiveness shot.

If you are that close, I'd try to get a majority thoughness of 5 by increasing the # of Fiends to 5.

So are mono-deldar dead? Is it just too tempting to ally in Eldar, or can deldar compete at top tables on their own? Does anyone know for sure?

Depends on your classification of dead. You can go 2-1 in a tourney but your going to face that eldar or tau list that hard counters you. The problem with allying eldar is every unit in the de codex has a unit in the dar codex thats better. So where do you stop?

I mean for 1500 I did have Scourge and Razorwings but eventually it turned into

Lhamaeans
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
10x Kabalite Warriors w/ Raider, NS, SR
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon

Aspect Host (+1 BS)
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons

Crimson Death
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter Exarch

But like, it was tough finding a game

On a DE note, has anyone had success with any of the Wrack formations, aside Scalpel Squadrom (that just never works out for me).

Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

 Jimsolo wrote:
Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

Have you used the Epicureans? I want to run them for "kill my Warlord" shenanigans but am not sure what to do with them besides maybe attack squads with special weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mercury14 wrote:
So SM get like ten free tanks just for playing space marines. And they all come with free TL heavy bolters. Riiiight.

Next codex please.

I'm not happy about this garbage, either. It's really exciting knowing DE only missed the Decurion "free things for your army because sales!" bus by about 2 months so we get to suck up being part of a crappy codex cycle for almost a full cycle.

How do we deal efficiently with the inevitable objsec ghost pod spam armies? Give in to bringing Eldar allies? Field armies of Scourges? Find a new hobby?

Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

This doesn't make sense though. For one, they can take min-sized tac squads. Two, in no way is ten free tanks too expensive. Even if you insist on calling the use of tac squads a tax (and they were going to use a couple anyway most likely), they get up to +550 points in their list. In an 1850 match, it's 2400 points of space marines versus 1850 of Dark Eldar. And everything in their formation plus those ten free tanks is objective secured. We have no real way to deal with that.

When there's a drop pod, a Razorback, and a SM infantry unit all obsec on three or four objectives, what can we do? Even if we use coven and assault, by the time we get there, there aren't enough turns life in the game to clear everything.

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Those free transports come with a monumental tax though, chock full of TAC which aren't that great.

This doesn't make sense though. For one, they can take min-sized tac squads. Two, in no way is ten free tanks too expensive. Even if you insist on calling the use of tac squads a tax (and they were going to use a couple anyway most likely), they get up to +550 points in their list. In an 1850 match, it's 2400 points of space marines versus 1850 of Dark Eldar. And everything in their formation plus those ten free tanks is objective secured. We have no real way to deal with that.

When there's a drop pod, a Razorback, and a SM infantry unit all obsec on three or four objectives, what can we do? Even if we use coven and assault, by the time we get there, there aren't enough turns life in the game to clear everything.

to get free transports they have to take:
2 chaplains or captains(can be one of each)
6 tactical squads
2 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents (2 total)
2 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad. (2 total, can be one of each)

the min cost without upgrades for min sized squads would be ~ 1000pts for the cheapest min sized squad with 0 points in any upgrades or gear. which are 2 captains(no upgrades), 6 squads of 5 tacticals (no upgrades), 2 5 man assault squads(no upgrades), 2 5 man dev squads (no upgrades)

and then they can get free vehicles. So the tacticals could have 6 free razorbacks with no upgrades, the assault squads Maybe 2 free razorbacks, and the 2 5 man dev squads 2 razorbacks, so yeah they get 10 free vehicles but look at the army list. Consider when you are buying upgrades for the squads they are often going to be more than double the base cost for marine stuff. You just hit 2k points, so you can have the units above with trimmed back upgrades and no upgrade to the free tanks, and pretty much have no additional special rules for formations are are locked in to those units. Going to other more interesting units(grav cents) drastically costs more, and grav cents don't come with vehicle options that can be free.

so yes they can get +550 points at 1850 but they will not be able to upgrade the vehicles and they will not be able to upgrade multiple squads due to points limits.

and these are MIN size squads, so those 6 tac squads is a total of 30 models. The two min sized assault squads, 10 more models, 2 dev squads, 10 more models. 2 captains 10 vehicles, this army is under 70 models most of which are 1 wound, low AV, and no 2+ saves, no ++ saves outside of characters. I would rather fight this army than scatbike spam/pentyrant/gravbikes+invis centstar many times over.

What are you going to do when a drop pod and AV11 3hp razorback is on on objective with 5 tac marines? I hope you have a solution for killing that as dark eldar, I would say raider with splinter racks averages 3-4 dead marines a turn, the darklance from raider and 1 unit of scourges with haywire should be able to clear all of that in 2 turns.

I would be more than happy to face the above army list with free vehicles. Its not drop podding, and if they take free drop pods thats just a bonus in my book because what are they going to drop pod at those points? tac marines? not as scary as the normal grav biker spam drop pod sternguard lists I see in tournaments.

Not to mention that even without the upgrades, you still need to take an Auxillary choice.

I'd be happy facing off against it more than ScatterSpam

lustigjh wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Scarlet Epicureans don't suck.

I think mono Dark Eldar can still function, but it's harder. Ask me again when this escalation league coming up is finished. (It's restricted to the point where I can only run mono-DE.)

Have you used the Epicureans? I want to run them for "kill my Warlord" shenanigans but am not sure what to do with them besides maybe attack squads with special weapons

I do. Usually just as two squads of five in venoms, with the haemmy riding in a Raider with the Grotesquerie formation I almost always take.

It allows me to throw some Venom spam on the field, and gives me some fairly durable troops should I need them for mop-up assault work or for securing objectives. If my opponent runs a beatstick HQ, then the Epicurean becomes my Warlord, so I can get VP from dying at his hands, while my Grotesques kill the enemy warlord with overflow wounds. It's usually pretty effective.

What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Played a game yesterday with some stuff I've never used before. Brought some helions and mandrakes. The helions basically won the game. I had just one left and he sweeping advanced my friends crisis team, it was beautiful.

 Gamerely wrote:
Played a game yesterday with some stuff I've never used before. Brought some helions and mandrakes. The helions basically won the game. I had just one left and he sweeping advanced my friends crisis team, it was beautiful.

When you said hellions won you the game, I pictured your opponent choking to death from laughter as you deployed the hellions.
The only issue with hellions is the price, they really are not worth 13 points.

But, like all things dark eldar, if you ignore them long enough, and roll well on the drugs, the combination of power from pain and combat drugs might make them suck less by the end of the game.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Varies. Try to keep him in range of the units that need him. He can follow a CTC for true silliness, but usually staying centrally located and getting in range of my thickest knot of guys works best. They've also got Smah, so they can usually hold their own in assault, which means. One occasionally work as backstop anti-vehicle units.

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

Agreed. My Cronos is just along for the ride in my Dark Artisan. He's a Spirit Probe tax, who can melt a few MEQ with his flamer and stomp on a couple of MEQ/TEQ in CC, if his big brother, the Talos, leaves anything for him stomp. But I keep my expectations for the Cronos' offensive efforts low. With that said, I still find him worth every point due to the 4+ FNP he hands out. If run alongside a Corpsethief Claw, you have five MCs with good shooting and scary CC abilities that now have Necron Decurion-level resiliency.

sweetbacon wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

mercury14 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
What do you do with the Cronos? Just move it up the field?

Usually my Cronos just sorta watch people go "OMG AHHHHHGH!" when they're getting hammered by Talos and Grotesques... And they wander into whatever CC they feel like. Sometimes they'll use their little spray gun on stuff but mostly they just sorta go where they please. Or they don't. There's not much to 'em. Often times they're on drop pod smashing duty and do second-line chores like that.

This should be the official Cronos tactica guide.

Agreed. My Cronos is just along for the ride in my Dark Artisan. He's a Spirit Probe tax, who can melt a few MEQ with his flamer and stomp on a couple of MEQ/TEQ in CC, if his big brother, the Talos, leaves anything for him stomp. But I keep my expectations for the Cronos' offensive efforts low. With that said, I still find him worth every point due to the 4+ FNP he hands out. If run alongside a Corpsethief Claw, you have five MCs with good shooting and scary CC abilities that now have Necron Decurion-level resiliency.

Make that Haemie your warlord and now they're even better.

I always do!

What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

 CKO wrote:
What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

Its most point efficient to add nothing to them. None of the options are particularly good.

the wych weapons are cheap but you get what you pay for. If you have 5 points to spare and don't know where to spend it then why not zoidbe... hydra gauntlet? Overall though their use is most exemplified by their rules. They are a cheap unit you can throw at a scary unit with low number of attacks and high ap/strength and let their dodge 4++ frustrate the enemy.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
the wych weapons are cheap but you get what you pay for.

Honestly, I'd argue that even 5pts is too much for the pitiful bonuses they grant.

 Jimsolo wrote:

I do. Usually just as two squads of five in venoms, with the haemmy riding in a Raider with the Grotesquerie formation I almost always take.

It allows me to throw some Venom spam on the field, and gives me some fairly durable troops should I need them for mop-up assault work or for securing objectives. If my opponent runs a beatstick HQ, then the Epicurean becomes my Warlord, so I can get VP from dying at his hands, while my Grotesques kill the enemy warlord with overflow wounds. It's usually pretty effective.

Could you post one of your lists?

Wyches pretty much blow.

Academically, however, I think the hydra gauntlets are just slightly better on average than the other two.

I've seen the mathhammer done before, and it varies depending on the drugs you have and the opponent you're up against, but I seem to recall gauntlets having a small margin of advantage in the average situation.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

If i was to use Wyches, I'd say a Hekatrix with an Agoniser is a must. She is overly expensive and not particularly good at what she wants to do, but the unit has no teeth against MEQ without her killing 1 MEQ a turn. Without her you'll find they will rarely manage a single wound, with her you might find you do 2!

If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I'd go with Harlequins if you only have one ally. They have the psychic powers plus the attacks/powers that most benefit from the CTC's Freakish Spectacle.

Craftworld Eldar make a string showing, too. A grotesquerie and/or a scalpel squadron complement the army nicely, giving you more Freakish Spectacle bubbles to stack up. Farseer Windrunners can keep pace with the army, and provide some psychic support, including Psychic Shriek, Dominate, and Terrify (so much better with multiple Ld negs in play). Invisible CTCs are the stuff of nightmares.

I've got any ally available, quantity and CtA (only requirement has to be a bound army).

Was thinking CWE, but that requires having to buy a lot of Eldar to compliment it and eh...

Four models is all you need for an Allied detachment (Farseer Skyrunner and Windriders). Two or three of those can really crush an enemy (and his soul). The psychic boons really go well with the Dark Eldar. There's a nice synergy there.

 Frozocrone wrote:
If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I would take multiple canoptek harvest formations as allies. They are fast, and fairly tough, and overall good for their points. They can engage and tie up multiple units quickly while the CTC closes to engage.

If I wanted to stick with "eldar race" I think an allied eldar detachment with farseer skyrunner, and wind riders. Would add in a craftworld aspect warhost formation or whatever and take a bunch of hawks/spiders.

Another fun idea would be wraithhost + CTC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wyches pretty much blow.

Academically, however, I think the hydra gauntlets are just slightly better on average than the other two.

I've seen the mathhammer done before, and it varies depending on the drugs you have and the opponent you're up against, but I seem to recall gauntlets having a small margin of advantage in the average situation.

Yeah IIRC against WS4 T4 hydragauntlets are the best. Shardnet and impaler are very close 2nd and actually equal if the unit does not have +1S or does not have FC.

The Hek upgrade +haywire is often the most cost effecient upgrade, you can throw a grenade and get 1 attack in assault for a decent chance of 2 HPS off a vehicle at least Really the average comes out to be about 1.2HPs between a thrown grenade and assaulting a vehicle if it has WS, and I think 1.5 if the vehicle has no WS stat.

Harlequins work as great allies for wyches, because you can get Hit and Run in the units from the harlequin elite characters. If you take starweavers as FA or whatever, you can put the ICs with a 5 model wyche squad since they have a 6 model transport capacity. HnR is a big deal for wyches because a lot of the PfP results that give combat bonuses are reliant on the models with PfP charging to get the bonus (FC, Rage) This gives you the oppurtunity to disengage an unit on your enemies turn and reassault it. Of course this gives your enemy another chance to overwatch you...

Beastpacks with almost all khymera and some flocks work great with wyches too, they are fast so they can get in and assault first to eat overwatch- are more likely to survive overwatch, and are relatively cheap.

The main problem is once the wyches charge in, even not being overwatched now- they just don't hit that hard until late in the game when they might have FC+Rage+combat drugs- and even thent he Hek needs to be kitted out.

Other than shooting being favored over assault for many editions, wyches are bad at assault. they were bad at assault last DE codex- and they were made worse by removal of Haywire, reduction in power of wyche weapons (yeah they are 5pts less, but they are crap now..) considering many codexes after DE saw weapons go down in cost, and models go down in cost that neither of these happened left wyches in a spot where they are actually worse now than they have ever been.

Wyches are good in assault in some circumstances though:

1) Against MCs, Dreads, TH/SS Termis with low volume of attacks, your opponent doesn't want to get them tangled up with Wyches.

2) If they get the right combat drug.

3) Later in the game when PfP is kickin'. 4++ FnP + furious charge + combat drugs = excellent CC unit for 10 points

The problem is you often need to assault them turn 2 before PfP is in full gear...

 Frozocrone wrote:
If I wanted to use Corpsethief Claw, who would be the best allies to compliment it? Craftworlds for Farseer and Bikes/Hawks and co, Harlequins for Freakshow or DE (Covens for Dark Artisan) and maybe some Scourge and Venoms?

I've run the CtC + Dark Artisan with Spirit Probe (with the Haemie's WL trait that let's the Talos re-roll 1's on FNP) and those two units working together are almost unkillable unless you're facing D-weapon spam or Grav spam. Other than that, everything else will bounce off of it. And then they start killing stuff.

Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

 vipoid wrote:
Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

My two large grotesques squads won't care.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Anyone else concerned about DAs having 3+ and 2+ rerollable jink on their bikes?

My two large grotesques squads won't care.

They'll care when overwatch hits them at full BS.

Now Medusae, they really won't care, especially with a WWP caddy and a raider. Hello bikes, have some AP3 templates.

Though that assumes your opponent only has one bike squad that needs killing.

I certainly don't see that squad surviving to get a second chance.

 vipoid wrote:
Though that assumes your opponent only has one bike squad that needs killing.

I certainly don't see that squad surviving to get a second chance.

But surely its cheap enough that your medusae and WWP will be cheaper than the bike unit you just erased. Personally, with all the new SM love and dex's I think its fair to say AP3 ignores cover is going to potent in the coming meta. Couple that with some dark reapers, then those land speeders are also in trouble

As for full BS overwatch, stuff like banshee mask? oh no overwatch? dang!

Solar Shock wrote:
But surely its cheap enough that your medusae and WWP will be cheaper than the bike unit you just erased.

I'm not so sure.

You're talking minimum 95pts for an Archon with WWP. Then at least 3 Medusae (unless you only want to kill 1/3 of the bike squad). So, you're already up to 170. Then you'll likely want a Raider (both to protect and move the squad, and to allow you to properly aim their templates), which brings them up to 225, as an absolute minimum.

At the very least, I don't see you coming out ahead.

Solar Shock wrote:
Couple that with some dark reapers, then those land speeders are also in trouble

As for full BS overwatch, stuff like banshee mask? oh no overwatch? dang!

I see we're back to Eldar allies. Yey...

 vipoid wrote:

I'm not so sure.

You're talking minimum 95pts for an Archon with WWP. Then at least 3 Medusae (unless you only want to kill 1/3 of the bike squad). So, you're already up to 170. Then you'll likely want a Raider (both to protect and move the squad, and to allow you to properly aim their templates), which brings them up to 225, as an absolute minimum.

At the very least, I don't see you coming out ahead.

I see we're back to Eldar allies. Yey...

But you just said that you wouldn't expect them to survive the following turn, so why are you spending all those extra points on a transport etc. Yeh it would be useful, if they did survive, but there are various ways to run a suicide squad. Personally, i'd probably consider dropping the WWP caddy and simply stick them in a venom, then you can simply either run them on the board as a distraction/focus unit, or DS them. Yeh you still have the chance to scatter etc, but for the cost (venom and 3 medusae = 130 points minimum) you have a throw away unit that you can use to clear out quite a potent unit. I mean if I came against some DA list where he had a powerful HQ in a bike squad, having a throw away unit that can remove the HQs retinue allowing you to then lay volumes of poison into whatever remains sounds good to me.

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

As for allies, I highly expect to be seeing players running various formations from across the SM factions, so competitively I dont think you can afford to be against allies simply because it sucks (although it certainly does suck! and I completely agree But tactically wise thats how i'd deal with DA)

Solar Shock wrote:

But you just said that you wouldn't expect them to survive the following turn, so why are you spending all those extra points on a transport etc.

Because a transport at least forces your opponent to deal with them. If they don't have a transport then they're a lot easier to just ignore (since they're going to be spending the rest of the game moving 12", and trying to catch units that move 12+").

Solar Shock wrote:
Personally, i'd probably consider dropping the WWP caddy and simply stick them in a venom, then you can simply either run them on the board as a distraction/focus unit, or DS them.

Fair enough, but wasn't it you who suggested the WWP in the first place?

Solar Shock wrote:

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

If you did that, what would you use for your warlord?

 vipoid wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

I'd probably run two for redundancy, but AP3 ignores cover I feel is going to be a very useful with the rise of SM units.

If you did that, what would you use for your warlord?

The farseer ally?

BAHAHAH! +1^^^

Yeh i agree, a venom would seriously help amplify their threat potential, just hope you get some lucky jinks?
Indeed, pinpoint WWP is so powerful with templates but you were right on the money with a 100 point tax being a little pricey for a one trick poney. I think going venoms is far superior in terms of efficiency, not only can you jink, you can shoot and hopefully if you survive, next turn melt more face. Compared to a WWP caddy the 55 points goes much further.

Warlord wise i'd probably have a haemy in the grotesquerie, but only because ive been converting my grotesquerie for so long to not use it would be ridiculous

Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

Speaking of which, having some jet-lag induced insomnia and came up with this while trying (and failing) to fall asleep.

Not sure it's actually legal tho, but I think so? Had been reading the skyhammer formation thread and all the complaining about scatterbikes and the new DA bikes...

RSR
Archon
WWP

9x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR

Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS

Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon

Eldar AD
Autarch

5x Rangers

Aspect host
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch

Aspect host
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot

= 1849 pts

Fire dragons go in the venoms
Reapers in the Night shield raiders

(Could alternatively ditch the night shields and kit out the autarch with power lance, banshee mask, fusion guns and wings, and have him jump around all willy nilly, and if we did so, presumably let one of the Dark Reaper exarchs be our Warlord)

Autarch is there for reserve rolls in case we face skyhammer or have to go 2nd vs something shooty, rangers so we can deploy something T1.
Everything can deep strike if we want/need to. Got 9 skimmers, 21 long-mid range s8 shots (6 lances, 3 blasters, 12 starshot) spread across 12 units, 15 melta shots, 6 splinter cannons, and 29-58 twinlinked splinter rifle shots depending on range.

This isn't something I'll be fielding anytime soon, just my no-sleep brain couldn't let the idea go and it looks really solid to me. Anti-infantry, check. Anti-mech, double check. No true ignores cover but it ignores the most important form (jink). Maybe a bit questionable on the anti-air front.

Trystis wrote:

 CKO wrote:
What is the best loadout for a ten man wyche squad?

Its most point efficient to add nothing to them. None of the options are particularly good.

I think getting an agonizer in there is a good option. At least it's always worked out well for me.

number9dream wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Shrine dark reapers in a raider are still my top answer to any bike in the game.

Speaking of which, having some jet-lag induced insomnia and came up with this while trying (and failing) to fall asleep.

Not sure it's actually legal tho, but I think so? Had been reading the skyhammer formation thread and all the complaining about scatterbikes and the new DA bikes...

RSR
Archon
WWP
Venom w scannon

9x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
10x Warriors w blaster
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR
Raider w DL&SR

Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS
Raider w DL&NS

Venom w scannon
Venom w scannon

Eldar AD
Autarch

5x Rangers

Aspect host
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch
5x Fire Dragons /w Exarch

Aspect host
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot
3x Dark Reapers /w Exarch&Starshot

= 1849 pts

Fire dragons go in the venoms
Reapers in the Night shield raiders

(Could alternatively ditch the night shields and kit out the autarch with power lance, banshee mask, fusion guns and wings, and have him jump around all willy nilly, and if we did so, presumably let one of the Dark Reaper exarchs be our Warlord)

Autarch is there for reserve rolls in case we face skyhammer or have to go 2nd vs something shooty, rangers so we can deploy something T1.
Everything can deep strike if we want/need to. Got 9 skimmers, 21 long-mid range s8 shots (6 lances, 3 blasters, 12 starshot) spread across 12 units, 15 melta shots, 6 splinter cannons, and 29-58 twinlinked splinter rifle shots depending on range.

This isn't something I'll be fielding anytime soon, just my no-sleep brain couldn't let the idea go and it looks really solid to me. Anti-infantry, check. Anti-mech, double check. No true ignores cover but it ignores the most important form (jink). Maybe a bit questionable on the anti-air front.

Solid list. Shift the Archons venom to fast attack. He won't fit with the fire dragons, and they cannot start in it, as it's his dedicated transport. I'd ditch a squad of warriors, and bring something more useful, like 5 grotesques (joined by webway archon and autarch)


-Matt