It's not that much when you think about the formation, what it get's what it frees up ( elite slots).
I mean that's less than 500 for 30 models, 3 Raiders, a massive amount of mid strength shooting. Fearless, great objective holders etc.. The main thing though is it frees up a Elite Slot, do I think it's super competitive? Maybe. It's a lot of models that are fearless to get rid of that are pretty tough, and if in cover, hard to dig out without Ignore cover.
The main thing people were going for with Wrack heavy armies is all there. Cheap, Fearless troops. Sure they're not Objective Secured but that's not a slight against them.
If you're running Covens, though, elites slots aren't at a premium anyway. The detachments in the supplement really loosen up the FOC bottleneck there. Don't get me wrong, the Fleshcorps isn't bad, it just doesn't thrill me. I could probably get a Scalpel Squadron and group of Epicureans for not a whole lot more. (The covens detachments are like Voltron though. The more you hook up, the cooler it gets.)
I kind of think the Scalpel Squadron is pretty powerful because of the VP reward. It's like the go to unit for me really, I generally always take it. The ability to gain D3 , then pull ahead with Maelstrom mission objectives is pretty much the gak.
The most I've managed to pull ahead is by 4 on the first turn but that was enough to send my opponent scrambling. Then the rest comes in to grab more VPs and such. Pretty over at that point to a degree and their trying to focus on that issue.
The army is built around gaining mission objectives and extra VPs so it's like yes, I want that.
Scalpel Squadron
Thought this would be a good thread to post this on. Mod feel free to sticky it to the first post. A full dark eldar video tactica series that breaks down each unit individually. 22 videos and counting so far. Enjoy it fellow archons! (http://youtu.be/rkHmD9kSJzQ?list=PLij7UdcB6g2fHnrST99jf1nDqageQ4UNt)
After several attempts, I think I've come to the conclusion that tactical videos just aren't for me. For tactica, I think articles work better than videos. It's easier to skim back over an article when referring back in order to make list choices or to reread strategy. In addition, I (and I assume most people) read faster than the average speaker talks, which makes it more time consuming, while at the same time less productive, to watch tactical videos as opposed to reading the material. Videos are much more useful for things like painting/modeling tutorials or bat reps, where the video can move at higher than real-time speeds and don't leave the viewers restrained by the presente's speaking speed.
Thanks anyway, though. Hopefully someone else can get something from it. On the plus side, great paint job on that Ravager!
Why doesn't anyone ever actually show positioning on the board along with showing what's going on with the unit. It may seem boring ,but actually showing something like specifically scenarios where you'd deep strike a ravager vs. when not to.
Actually show the distance on the board , like show the different types of deployment and the actual threat range.
I dunno, I like videos and think their good tactics, but something I've learned in writing and with sketch and comedy on stage is Show don't Tell.
Show me the range of the Ravager on a empty board.
Show me the scenarios when you'd want to deep strike.
Like for instance because of it's range Deep Striking along the short board edge is great if you focus your army towards the other board edge.
Examples like that.
Also, please speak from your diaphragm.
I think you have a great wonderful characterized voice but it could be better somewhat if you'd speak from your diaphragm.
Sorry to be nitpicky.
All of your advice is really great. Do a video on Combos with the Coven. That would be great. If you need any help I'm sure Jimsolo's got some great combos and I do as well.
Thanks for the comments and ideas for the tactical series. What is done is done, but you have given me something to think about. I appreciate it!
So. I have tested a null deployment list at 1500pts to great effect and would like the communities feedback.
Archon (hope for the labyrinthine trait, or pick it if you can)
2 + units of 5 kabs in venoms with blasters and dual cannon.
2 lance razorwings
void raven
Allied Eldar
Bike autarch
3 eldar jetbikes
Scalpel Squadron - 2 units of wracks in venoms.
This list harkens to the old 5th edition "reserve" list. And with the autarch can really allow some cool wave manipulation of the reserves. I know it would struggle against some lists, but so do other lists. The idea would be to give the enemy turn 1. And have them waste a few turns of the game, and then hit them hard turn 2 and 3. The void raven and razorwings do the main hunting, while the venoms then mop up survivors. It was a lot of fun to play and I can see myself enjoying it alot.
So for your list;
How do you plan to stay on the board turn 1?
Are you planning on any upgrades on the autarch (mantle of laughing god) and the Scalpel Squadron (some Ossefactors or Liquifiers)? I imagine you are as you have a pretty barebones list but these upgrades will probably determine if the list hits like a wet noodle or like a truck of wet noodles.
You might want to consider a unit of fire dragons or wraithguard to WWP with the archon. It makes people absolutely freak out when you have that sort of firepower still in reserves.
If you need to stay on the board and are struggling to then you could consider some Battle Cannon Vengeance Batteries. 150 pts for 2 AV14 buildings. You can also make DE version of them with some fruit cups and extra bits.
I've been running something similar to that null deployment with my DE/Eldar. I just bought a trio of Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries I'm looking forward to testing for a good solid T7 unit to stay on the board as well. I do run a unit of fire dragons in a raider with archon and wwp as well. They've never failed to kill a vehicle be it an imperial knight or a wave serpent. The other nice thing about them is it lets you buy a wave serpent which also adds another tough unit to leave on the board.
I've been racking my brain for the longest time trying to figure out how people are using the Scalpel Squadron and not consistently giving up first blood to your opponent with your fragile ass venoms. And then it just suddenly clicked in my mind last night:
Duh, you pick up first blood by shooting a unit to death the turn the squadron deep-strikes.
For some reason I was under the impression that you needed to kill a unit in assault with the wracks in order to score the D3 victory points. That's not the case, so obviously the trick is to DS them near a small, vulnerable unit (like IG veterans lulz) and let 'em have it with the splinter cannons for EZ first blood.
Honestly I'd be tempted to take two detachments of it (it's only a bit more than 500 points to take take 4 double SC venoms with ossefactor wracks in them), but without the assurance of a webway portal I'm weary of trying to deep-strike 4 boats so close together that they're all in range to focus down one unit.
Definitely a good formation, though. I'm making a 1500 point list with the Corpsethief Claw and Dark Artisan formations as its core. I've got a bit less than 600 points left over, and having a tough time trying to decide what to fill the list out with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated note, I ran Corpsethief for the first time today, and it, backed up by a Dark Artisan squad, wiped a beserker star containing Abaddon and Kharne in it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an unrelated note, I ran Corpsethief for the first time today, and it, backed up by a Dark Artisan squad, wiped a beserker star containing Abaddon and Kharne in it.
t'was glorious.
Awesome! I'm planning on running the same thing, Corpsethief backed up by the DA, against a couple of squads of TWC, so it is great to hear how devastating they can be to normally feared close combat monster units.
I've given some thought to Dire Avengers in a Raider, but I think that most of the Eldar aspects are matched fairly evenly (on the balance) with options from the Eldar codex.
I don't own any actual CWE, but I think if you did, then investing in some Raiders would be very profitable for the Eldar player. I'm not sure any aspect other than Fire Dragons offer something the DE codex lacks. (At least, that can be mounted in a vehicle.)
What about instead of the corpsethief you run 2-3 dark artisan squads? With wwp so they just pop up in critical locations for a little scare mongering and board control. I also think itd be so fun to have a few DA squads appearing right in the middle of their force
I'm thinking this cos buying and painting another 5 is a big mission, and you can't deep strike the corpsethief
Jimsolo wrote: I've given some thought to Dire Avengers in a Raider, but I think that most of the Eldar aspects are matched fairly evenly (on the balance) with options from the Eldar codex.
I don't own any actual CWE, but I think if you did, then investing in some Raiders would be very profitable for the Eldar player. I'm not sure any aspect other than Fire Dragons offer something the DE codex lacks. (At least, that can be mounted in a vehicle.)
What about Dark Reapers in a Raider? They're only a little more than Trueborn with blasters and shoot differently with the Reaper launcher... And have 3+ armor.
vorrax-ghul wrote: What about instead of the corpsethief you run 2-3 dark artisan squads? With wwp so they just pop up in critical locations for a little scare mongering and board control. I also think itd be so fun to have a few DA squads appearing right in the middle of their force
I'm thinking this cos buying and painting another 5 is a big mission, and you can't deep strike the corpsethief
Luckily for myself I own two OOP taloi and 3 new ones, but I was in your camp anyway. Why not just run 2 DA instead? simple answer is board control. Corpse thief after scouting owns a huge area of board. Not only that but it rakes in extra VP's in assault which will cause your opponent to be further on his heals.
Not sure how I feel running them both however, DA and CT I mean as thats just too many points in 2 units.
No one's been biting in the list sub-forum, so I'll fish for some CC here.
These are two lists that I need to pick from to run in an 1850 points tournament. They're mostly the same, coming down to either Venom-spam with Coven formations or Raider spam with coven formations. Curious to know which list Dakka thinks is stronger.
Spoiler:
BlaxicanX wrote: Here are two (hopefully) competitive lists that I'll be choosing from to run in a tournament. C&C is, as always, appreciated.
In 5th edition, reserving everything as a dark eldar player was commonplace! I am very excited that the Null deployment concept has returned once more! I requires three things:
Autarch (for reserve manipulation)
Dark Eldar force of some sort.
The Scalpel Squadron (formation from the coven book) - this is what allows you to keep everything off the table. Why? well, it deepstrikes turn 1, and stops you from loosing the game automatically.
So, why is null deployment so effective?
Ideally you want to go second. This basically negates your opponents entire first turn of shooting, and drastically reduces the second turns (if you placed the scalpel squadron right) This makes the enemy army not as effective at dealing with the fragile dark eldar units, and gives us a chance to do the most damage when we arrive from reserve.
The autarch is there to really assist in reserves, and if you get a dark eldar re roll reserves warlord trait, then its even better! Re rolling and then adding +1 or -1 is awesome like that you can really choose what comes on quite reliably.
I find the dark eldar do most of their damage in the first 3 turns of play, and the enemy will usually get beat up pretty hard, but then, turn 4 and 5 is when they can come back into it if they begin to win the war of attrition (lets face it, dark eldar are not the toughest). SO! by keeping everything in reserve, those first three turns of dark eldar dealing out punishment and death are the second, third and fourth turns! This allows less time for the enemy to fight back as effectively and gives the dark kin a great advantage in game.
So! What are your thoughts? To illustrate my point, you can watch this video battle report, I use a Null deployment dark eldar army, with three fliers and venoms and a wwp against a knight and a space marine biker heavy army.
BlaxicanX wrote: No one's been biting in the list sub-forum, so I'll fish for some CC here.
These are two lists that I need to pick from to run in an 1850 points tournament. They're mostly the same, coming down to either Venom-spam with Coven formations or Raider spam with coven formations. Curious to know which list Dakka thinks is stronger.
Spoiler:
BlaxicanX wrote: Here are two (hopefully) competitive lists that I'll be choosing from to run in a tournament. C&C is, as always, appreciated.
BlaxicanX wrote: No one's been biting in the list sub-forum, so I'll fish for some CC here.
These are two lists that I need to pick from to run in an 1850 points tournament. They're mostly the same, coming down to either Venom-spam with Coven formations or Raider spam with coven formations. Curious to know which list Dakka thinks is stronger.
Spoiler:
BlaxicanX wrote: Here are two (hopefully) competitive lists that I'll be choosing from to run in a tournament. C&C is, as always, appreciated.
Hmm. I like them both. I'd be tempted to go with the Raider list myself, since I tend to face a vehicle thick meta.
I like the raider list better tbh, but thats based on my gaming group. Lots of nids and daemon FMC, the splinter racks ups the chance you can get hits to force grounding tests, which gives you some decent anti air in regards to FMC only of course.
Consider 9 warriors rapid firing at FMC, 18 shots, need 6s, 3 hits, reroll misses 2 more hits, 5 hits is 2.5 wounds. not amazing but it has a decent chance to wound a FMC and force a grounding test. The more you force the opponent to make the better the odds they fail.
having the raiders over the venoms also gives you an additional potential darklight shot a turn per unit, and considering your not really hurting for poisoned shots the venoms just aren't necessary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Big Borg wrote: I haven't purchased the new Codex yet. How have these characters/units fared?
Urien - fared well
Hellions- were not great before, got a little worse.
Scourges- are now amazing for their cost
Kabalite warriors- pretty much unchanged, dropped in cost 1 point per model
Ravager- lost ability to fire all weapons on move at full BS, went up in cost...
Wyches- No change in cost, wyche weapons cheaper but worse, however a squad of 10 wyches can now take 3 wyche weapons.
Am I missing something? It seems to be that the way the codex is designed is as a mixed kabalite/coven/cult force, with the coven starting on the board with its very tough units that can endure fire, and the wych cult units coming into play later in the game so as to benefit from PfP, which seems to be what they are balanced around.
Yep. I had the same impression. That's how I've been playing and, so far, it seems to be working pretty well. Coven units/formations from the supplement + Real Space Raiders is a really good combo, I've found.
sweetbacon wrote: Yep. I had the same impression. That's how I've been playing and, so far, it seems to be working pretty well. Coven units/formations from the supplement + Real Space Raiders is a really good combo, I've found.
It seems that maybe you could do roughly the same thing inside a purely wych cult or kabalite list, using beastpacks and courts of the archon (Sslyths) as your tougher first-turn units.
Really a Wych shouldn't even be on the board before she has FnP.
SisterSydney wrote: But without an allied Archon, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.
Ideally, theoretically, the enemy would still be dealing with your tough units (coven units, the court, beastpacks) whenever the reserves come in.
Or they don't have to start in reserve. Wyches/Kabalite Warriors can be hanging around behind cover at the back of the board, basking in the delicious pain, as the other units close, and then zoom forward in their transports when PfP kicks in.
The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that this is what the designers had in mind. The fact that beasts don't have PfP is practically encouraging it.
SisterSydney wrote: But without an allied Archon, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.
Why not a Bastion with Comms? Gives a unit a big AV14 fortress to hide in- can even put a Quad Gun on the roof to cover for the Deldar's lack of anti-air.
All this talk of static fortifications seems very un-Dark-Eldar-y. But maybe they could sell seats to the show at discounted prices if you man a weapon?
SisterSydney wrote: All this talk of static fortifications seems very un-Dark-Eldar-y. But maybe they could sell seats to the show at discounted prices if you man a weapon?
I would just stick them behind whatever LoS-blocking terrain there happens to be. Anyway, the enemy should be dealing with the swarm of fast-moving beast critters coming at him.
SisterSydney wrote: But without an allied ArchonCWE Autarch, how do you manage the Reserve rolls? I fear you'd end up with units dribbling in and dying piecemeal.
I keep hearing this here and over at the Dark City forums, but I honestly haven't had a problem with it. With static 3+ Reserve rolls, I think I've had maybe one or two units EVER fail to come in two turns in a row since I picked up the army.
For an ally, I much prefer a Farseer. Three extra denial dice, plus a tasty assortment of psychic powers to choose from (and if you take them on a bike, with bikers, they bring Objective Secured to the list, which a formation/raiders list lacks).
Except wyches and hellions. I think their utility still is debatable; the fact that they got hosed isn't.
Wyches lost utility in that they can't walk through superheavy vehicles anymore with ease (they never should have been able to do that in the first place). The Hekatrix throwing then assaulting with a haywire grenade means they can still finish off damaged vehicles and assault things suck as dreadnoughts though.
Wyches got better against everything else though due to them getting PfP without having to kill units first. That's a substantial buff for them against a range of enemies and makes them significantly more survivable when it comes to taking small arms fire and vehicle explosions.
Lastly their Raiders jink on a 3+ now meaning wyches reach their targets more often than ever and vehicle explosions occur less than ever.
Except wyches and hellions. I think their utility still is debatable; the fact that they got hosed isn't.
Wyches lost utility in that they can't walk through superheavy vehicles anymore with ease (they never should have been able to do that in the first place). The Hekatrix throwing then assaulting with a haywire grenade means they can still finish off damaged vehicles and assault things suck as dreadnoughts though.
Wyches got better against everything else though due to them getting PfP without having to kill units first. That's a substantial buff for them against a range of enemies and makes them significantly more survivable when it comes to taking small arms fire and vehicle explosions.
Lastly their Raiders jink on a 3+ now meaning wyches reach their targets more often than ever and vehicle explosions occur less than ever.
They sure don't look hosed to me.
Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.
I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.
Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.
I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.
1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".
2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.
3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".
4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.
5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.
6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.
7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.
Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.
I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.
1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".
2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.
3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".
4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.
5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.
6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.
7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.
1-3) We'll just have to agree to disagree, amigo. No animosity, but I just can't see my way to agreeing with you here.
4) Yes, that's what the Phantasm Grenade Launcher used to do. And it was a good option, back when cover saves mattered. The new PGL isn't even comparable, since it doesn't do anything remotely similar.
5) No, but the changes to cover in 7th impacted the wyches negatively. They were a weaker choice because of that. Now, without Haywire Grenades to back them up, they haven't got anything going for them.
6) It does make them a worse choice for points and slots. If you're spending your mandatory troop selections on wyches, you're wasting those slots.
7) The amount of points it takes to get a Hekatrix into your army is a waste. For that same role you can get another choice somewhere else that will do the job better, faster, with more durability, for a lower cost.
Wyches were already a sub-par selection in the old codex, but if they were kitted and played right they could still be viable. Now? You can run them if you want, and they aren't so awful that they'll prevent you from winning, but if you take them you are absolutely putting yourself at a disadvantage.
I'm still going to run mine. Like Joe Pesci said, "Why? Because I'm stupid." I have the models, they look great, and they are still 'meh' enough that I should be able to stick them in a friendly game and have other units pick up the slack. But with no Haywire Grenades, no Duke, and virtually no cover, I think they're destined to ride the pine when tourney day rolls around.
Then you aren't considering the infinitely worse combat drugs, considerably worse Wych weapons, arguably worse PfP, the removal of a defensive grenade option, the comparative lack of cover in 7th, the point reduction to warriors, or the ludicrously low chance of a hekatrix with haywire grenades accomplishing anything significant. They aren't a good assault unit, aren't a good troops choice, and don't synergize well with any other units/options.
I don't think they're so bad that a skilled player couldn't USE them, (if they already own some) but they are unequivocally worse in this edition, and anybody who doesn't already own them should avoid wasting their money.
1) Combat drugs are about the same not "infinitely worse".
2) Wych weapons are about the same for their cost.
3) PfP is objectively better, not "arguably worse".
4) Wyches could buy defensive grenades? I never noticed. If they had them it wasn't a good option and therefore not a measurable loss.
5) The cover didn't change when the new codex came out.
6) Warriors dropping a point doesn't make Wyches worse. They perform very different roles so relative value isn't cleanly measured.
7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.
1- combat drugs are about the same, but there is no longer an option from a certain HQ to allow you a better chance to get a useful combat drug option, and there currently are no dataslates or formations for wyche cults that would improve combat drugs, or allow for a second combat drug roll or some such.
2- Wyche weapons are not about the same. The ability to reduce attacks is gone, and the rerolls have been severely reduced on the wyche weapons, they did go down in cost by half but I personally, and I think many people would agree, they went further than half in effectiveness.
Old hydra gauntlets = lots of extra attacks
old shardnet+impaler= reduce enemy attacks by 1 in btb old razorflails reroll all to hits and to wounds
all of these were good. arguably the hydra gauntlets were the worst as you average 3.5 attacks, with half hitting, and at S3, maybe 4 your not really getting that much.
new hydra gauntlets=re-roll to wounds
new razorflails= re-roll to hit
new shardnet+impaler= reroll to hit rolls and to wound rolls of 1.
with wyches WS and S the roll you are most likely to fail in a tournament setting is to wound, making razorflails now the worst option. Hydra gauntlets are now the best as most of the dice you will need to reroll will most likely be on wounds, with shardnet+impaler being a middle ground of these two not anywhere as good as before options.
3- pfp overall is better in that the whole army gets it, old wyches would start with it often as you would put a Haem with them so turn 1, or even before you go they have FnP 5+. Currently they are not getting that until turn 3, maybe 2 depending on various army options.
4- old phantasm grenade launcher gave defensive, honestly I agree with you wasn't that big of a loss. I vaguely recall a faq stating the cover from defensive grenades did not count as cover for shooting during overwatch. New PGL is a list tailored item only, since it does not work on ATSKNF or fearless in most tournament settings you will be lucky to have a target to fire at this over all the games you play in total. In the past years multiple times in tournaments on the east coast I have played 4-6 rounds and played against at most 1 opponent each tournament that had models that were not space marines, or just fearless.
5- I don't see much of a change.
6- warriors going down does not make wyches worse, but makes you more likely to buy more warriors over wyches. Which in the end makes wyches less likely to be taken, but not in of itself worse.
7- I think a hekatrix has uses, and the cost isn't ridiculously high to upgrade. 10 pts for an additional attack, 5 pts for the haywire grenades.
If we're comparing last codex's Wyches on the basis of them having a Haemi can we agree to do the same with this Codex's Wyches? FNP 5+ on turn two and on turn three they're hitting at S4.
Also the Hekatrix gives Ld 9, which in a unit with tarpit utility is quite valuable.
Nobody addressed my point about 3+ jinking Raiders being a buff to their delivery system.
Lastly, if we're calling the change to cover between editions a nerf then why aren't we calling the change to the vehicle damage chart a buff? Substantially less explosions... And now they have some kind of FnP to help them cope as long as it's not turn one.
Jimsolo wrote: Because our AV 10 open-topped vehicles still explode to a hard sneeze.
Yes, vehicles got buffed, (I guess...) but the changes to the way we get cover is a much larger negative; the two don't balance out.
3+ Jinking Raiders are nice, there's no denying. Wyches are just a terrible option to put in them.
Yes, a 3+ jink save vehicle in an MSU list carrying 10-point models inside is relatively safe. I've had opponents spend the bulk of their whole shooting phase trying to take out a Raider that keeps rolling that 3+, it's not that rare. And if our opponents want to focus that much firepower on a single Raider in an MSU list just to counter some 10-point Wyches, that's a huge win for us.
3+ jink save from RR is great to okay depending on peoples meta, there is still a decent amount of ignores cover out there.
The issue with PFP is the wyches are in a fast transport, this edition and last. Realistically you can pull off a turn 2 charge with them.
If a raider blows up its taking most of the wyches with it, due to T3 and no armor save.
Considering that the wyches are probably going to reach assault turn 2, having a haem now to give increased pfp is not of much greater use than before since if the raider is getting blown up prior to our turn 2, they still are not getting a 5+ fnp like they did before.
3+ jinking raider is good, im just not so sure that a 3+ jink with no save for the wyches from FnP is better than a 4+ jink with a 5+ save for the wyches if the raider goes down. It's not that far off tho.
Do you guys usually lose a large volume of vehicles turn one? I usually don't... Granted Tau is rare in my meta, but I'm usually pretty okay turn one, especially it the Venoms get a night fighting 3+ jink. And running MSU it's pretty easy to accept a couple vehicles being destroyed or immobilized.
My meta is super mech heavy. Ridiculously so. Many of my games start with my opponent's whole army deployed on the board, without a single exposed enemy infantry unit. Over a hundred and thirty points per HWG just doesn't cut the mustard in Little Egypt. (For a hundred and fifty I can get a single Dark Lance on our toilet tissue transports to go with it!)
The codex doesn't lack for middle of the road assault units, and even has some really good ones. It isn't even like tactical squads, where you might think they suck, but you have to take two troops, and they don't suck as bad as scouts--we have another, really good troops choice.
I'm not saying a Wych can never kill a vehicle or do something worthwhile. But no matter what they do, be it anti-vehicle, anti-infantry, or tar pitting, another unit could have done it better, faster, cheaper, and with greater staying power.
wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.
example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.
which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.
reavers-
Currently I run 2 units of 6 with 2x caltrops each and champ with power weapon. 151 a squad.
I usually lose 1-2 vehicles first turn. It's been since about 4th edition since I lost a lot of vehicles turn 1.
blaktoof wrote: wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.
example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.
which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.
I think a lot of people underestimate this kind of utility that Wyches have. It depends on your meta though.
But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.
mercury14 wrote: But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.
Back in the day Wyches got FNP Turn 1 for the cost of including a Haem (or for just rolling a certain drug result - meaning sometimes they started with FC as well as FNP depending on what you did)
Nowadays it is FNP on Turn 2 at the earliest really, and it's a much more expensive/risky loadout to do that and potentially costs them fleet in the bargain depending how you did it.
I am of the opinion that it is harder to give them FNP than it used to be. I suppose it is easier/cheaper if your goal was to field 3+ Wych units but it also becomes slower at that stage, which is tough as the optimal times to have it are the early rounds, not the later ones.
Also, what utility do you think people are overlooking about wyches? I will happily agree that they are tarpitters. What other role do they have? Maybe 'light infantry harassment' I suppose, but that's risky for them if the light infantry is a shooty infantry. Beyond that I have to admit I can't think of much they do that well. What am I missing?
Earlier he was saying they do good anti-vehicle work.
7) A Hekatrix throwing a combat grenade and then assaulting with one has an very good chance to take off at least one hull point with an outside chance at a pen. I'd assault Wyches into a shooty Dread or a Knight in a second, not so much for the haywire but to tie them up. And if they were injured already yeah I'd go for the kill.
I think wyches are decent against dreds, not against knights.
If I had wyches with haywire, I would even consider assaulting them against an assault dred. Most assault dreds after saves will on average only gib 1 wych so you have a few turns of trying to glance it with haywire grenades, essentially just tarpitting it.
I wouldn't go after a knight because of stomp.
a lot of TOs rule stomp can hit models outside of the assault if the rules for stomp are followed for placing blasts, so it gives them a chance to hurt things of yours near the assault, also one lucky stomp, or a few average ones, on the wyches will end the assault making the tarpit not so effective, and a knight will average 2 stomps on the turn you charge it.
blaktoof wrote: I think wyches are decent against dreds, not against knights.
If I had wyches with haywire, I would even consider assaulting them against an assault dred. Most assault dreds after saves will on average only gib 1 wych so you have a few turns of trying to glance it with haywire grenades, essentially just tarpitting it.
I wouldn't go after a knight because of stomp.
a lot of TOs rule stomp can hit models outside of the assault if the rules for stomp are followed for placing blasts, so it gives them a chance to hurt things of yours near the assault, also one lucky stomp, or a few average ones, on the wyches will end the assault making the tarpit not so effective, and a knight will average 2 stomps on the turn you charge it.
I agree with running Wyches at Dreadnoughts as a viable tactic. Tarpitting them with Wyches and slowly whittling down their HP's with a Hekatrix is actually the only really effective way I have seen Wyches used since the new codex was released. I do get a chuckle out of the fact that the DE units that are actually good in assault like Grotesques and Talos generally want nothing to do with a kitted-out CC Dread, while Wyches, which are pretty terrible in assault, are actually, sorta, kinda decent at dealing with them.
Jimsolo wrote: Sweet, blak, do you guys think wyches are still worth taking? Or are those points better spent elsewhere?
I only think they're really worth the points if you need to tarpit a scary unit like CCB Lord, Centstar, Dreadnoughts, etc. And they really only make good tarpits in larger squads of 7+ with a Covens Haemonculus to make them Fearless. So a pretty decent points investment which probably could be spent elsewhere, but I'm saying if you absolutely have/want to take Wyches, this is what they seem to be best at now. If they roll + 1 Toughness on the Combat Drugs, they will get their FNP against some nasty things in CC, so a 4++/5+ Fearless unit makes for decently effective tarpit.
But again, I'm not endorsing Wyches as "good." Just opining on what they do best now.
blaktoof wrote: wyches are good at engaging high attrition expensive units that hit very very hard, with a limited number of attacks with no real source of rerolls for those attacks.
example- a wraithknight, terminators with thunderhammer/SS.
which is what they were always good at, but not worth using for over other things which actually kill the units they tarpit for about the same points.
I think a lot of people underestimate this kind of utility that Wyches have. It depends on your meta though.
But even against SM type armies Wyches got better because they get FnP much more easily. They survive in CC better as well as against small arms fire.
What utility? They are one of the most one dimensional units in the book, focusing on the worst phase of the game.
10 wyches in a raider with upgrades costs the same as 10 marines with a rhino and 2 specials. That's insane when you look at durability and output over the course of a game.
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Jimsolo wrote: Sweet, blak, do you guys think wyches are still worth taking? Or are those points better spent elsewhere?
Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.
Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.
Lol, why you singlin' me out? I've been preaching the waste of space that is wyches for the last two pages.
I think Wyches can be used. They have a different role now and cant be relied on to do what they used to do. Will they die to shooting? yes, they always have.
Will they crumble to assault units with lots of attacks? yup... they always have.
I like the new PFP chart and the drugs are all useful and thats nice there is no longer a useless one (unless you are playing low Initiative armies).
Can you run a pure wych cult? I dont think it would do as well as a balanced or kabalitic centric force... but I think It would be playable with the proper generalship.
Ok. Then again, I am a chronic optimist wading through the quagmire of the internet swamp of doom and sorrow.
People really can't see the utility of cheap 10-point gals that can tie up Dreadnoughts, MCs, Knights, Cents, most stuff that comes out of a Drop Pod, TH/SS/Shooty Termis, etc?
Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.
mercury14 wrote: Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.
Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.
I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.
Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.
Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.
So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.
mercury14 wrote: Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.
Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.
I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.
Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.
Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.
So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.
To be fair, a couple of the armies you posted have units that can be tied up (e.g, TMC's, particulary a grounded Tyrant, BikerStar, BargeLord - this might change come te new Necron Codex).
Personally I still think Kabalite Warriors are the better Troop choice, but I may take a unit of Wyches in an army just to see how often they can be used to tarpit a unit.
mercury14 wrote: Kabalites are solid units, yeah, however they lack the utility of Wyches and die just as easily to bolt gun fire.
Arguably they die slower since they'll almost never assault something and thus take no Overwatch fire.
I also have no idea why people keep using the word 'utility' when discussing the Wyches. Since this conversation started the 'utility' appear to be 'tarpit'. That has been expanded on to list what units they can tarpit and what units they cannot. That is not actually utility to my mind, what you are saying is they are limited tarpits, who are only good at tarpitting certain things and are bad at tarpitting others. So, basically they have one job (tarpit) but can't tarpit most enemy units, only a handful of units (specifically, they tarpit things with low to no shooting that have strong but limited in number attacks in assault). I will agree that's something that they can do, but they don't actually do it with much 'utility' ecause that's actually a very specific thing.
Then we have the warrior unit who, if given a blaster, has the ability to damage basically any unit in the game with its shooting. That's actually utility because no matter what army my opponent is playing, no matter what units he does or does not bring, I know that my Warriors will be able to shoot at and hurt his army.
Meanwhile, if there is no Wraithknight or Cent/Termie shooty squad or non-flamer Dread (so, y'know, just for starters, if I'm playing against Crons, Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar, or Imperial Guard - or any Space Marine or Eldar army not fielding the list noted here) then my Wyches are just derping around doing...nothing. That is not utility to my mind, that is a specialist unit with a limited number of optimal targets.
So Wyches do 1 thing well against limited targets and Warriors do 1 thing well against basically any target. I do not understand how you call Wyches as the one with utility from that pair.
Well said, Thor.
Wyches have such a limited, hyper-specific role that unless you know exactly what you'll be facing (i.e., one of the few units previously mentioned that you would feel okay about wasting points on Wyches in order to tie them up), then Warriors are always the better TAC choice.
Hollismason wrote: Fleshcorps is a good formation, it's basically another Urian when you think about it. Of course it only affects those wracks, but that's still really good because...
Look at this
Haemonoculus w/ Fleshgauntlet , WWP, Syndriqs < Free Floating Haemonoculus that can be put in other squads to give them Fearless or just buddy up with the Grotesquerie.
10 x Wracks w/ 2 Ossefactors
Raider w/ Zilch
10 Wracks w/ 2 Ossesfactors
Raider w/ Zilch
10 Wracks w/ 2 Osseffactor
Raider w/ Zilch
That's 15 AP2 shots. 9 ST 5 , 6 2+ Fleshbane, AP2
All of those have Fearless. Get rid of 30 models with Fearless, that will be in a raider, eventually gaining Zealot on turn 4 or sooner, and they have FNP.
Add a Grotesquerie
Haemonoculus
2 Squads of Grotesques
Like the book specifically has units and formations that go together perfectly. It's kind of neat.
Here's another problem. How can the cove codex, assuming you only want to bring the coven book, deal with walkers and land raiders? ...
Jimsolo wrote: Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.
I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?
This is somewhat of a tactica question, somewhat of a rules question I suppose. I play a lot of Necrons in my local meta and they use this HQ against me (maybe orrikan or something) who makes it so that all terrain is difficult on turn one. It's hell on my venoms and raiders because if they move they need to make two dangerous checks each.
My question is, can this power be used even if that HQ is in reserve? It says the power happens on turn one, however I was under the impression that units had to actually be on the board for their powers to be used.
Seriously, it puzzles me why people suggest squandering points on rubbish when there are so many better options in the book. It's not like we are forced to make them work.
I am just beginning to piece together a Dark Eidar army or an allied Dark Eldar/Eldar team, so I'm glad I came across this discussion. Can you please recommend a 1,800 point army for me? My LGS hasn't even obtained the new Dark Eldar codex yet, so I'm in the dark at the moment. I think that these models look great. Now, I need to figure out what to play. Thanks for any assistance.
But, don't worry about what i have. I only have the models because I like the models. If regular Eldar would be great supplements, please recommend those characters (e.g., I like the Warp Spiders, Jet bikes and Wraight Knight models).
Jimsolo wrote: Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.
I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?
Scissorhands. The haemmy and the Aberration should both take one. They can easily manage it against walkers attacking without S10, and if they have the Toughess boost (or the walker is slim on attacks) then even that is no big deal. Don't get me wrong, they aren't ideal, but vehicles are our Achilles Heel, and walkers doubly so. The Grotesquerie is a good way to take them down, or at least it has been for me so far.
That being said, I face Penitent Engines more than anything else in the Walker front, so that might be coloring my perceptions.
Jimsolo wrote: Corpsethief Claw, Dark Artisan can deal with both. Grotesquerie can put most walkers in the ground, too.
I agree that the DA and Corpsethief can handle Walkers, but how does the Grotesquerie? Aren't Walkers always hit on their front armor in CC? And since, other than War Walkers, the common Walkers are SM-type Dreadnoughts with front armor 12-13, how can Grots hurt them? They'd need to roll the +1 Strength on the Latest Experiments(?) table to even have a chance of glancing them, right?
Scissorhands. The haemmy and the Aberration should both take one. They can easily manage it against walkers attacking without S10, and if they have the Toughess boost (or the walker is slim on attacks) then even that is no big deal. Don't get me wrong, they aren't ideal, but vehicles are our Achilles Heel, and walkers doubly so. The Grotesquerie is a good way to take them down, or at least it has been for me so far.
That being said, I face Penitent Engines more than anything else in the Walker front, so that might be coloring my perceptions.
Ah, I forgot about Scissorhands. Now I see your point. Yeah, you're right that the Grotesquerie COULD deal with a Dread-type Walker in CC. But, like you said, it would not be an ideal way to do it. Other than worrying about getting ID'd by Str 10, I'm also concerned that your Fearless Grots could just get tied up for 2-3 turns in a slap fight with the Dreadnought, thereby sidelining one of your hardest hitting units. I think most opponents would be thrilled to trade a Dreadnought in exchange for neutralizing your Grots for half the game. .
You might be right. But if your options are throw the grots at it or let it tear through the rest of your army, I prefer letting the grots hit it, assuming the engines can't get over there. Even then, I assume the engines were moving in as quick as they can.
My preferred anti-tank in a coven list, though? Allies.
Jimsolo wrote: You might be right. But if your options are throw the grots at it or let it tear through the rest of your army, I prefer letting the grots hit it, assuming the engines can't get over there. Even then, I assume the engines were moving in as quick as they can.
My preferred anti-tank in a coven list, though? Allies.
Fair enough. I agree that the engines should be handling any Dreadnoughts in a Coven list.
I haven't tried a full Coven list. I just ally in the formations to regular DE so I have a decent amount of shooty anti-tank and punchy anti-everything.
They definitely struggle vs vehicles. I honestly prefer an 'Eldar unification' army, mixing and matching with Eldar, Iyanden, DE, Covens, and Corsairs as the list requires.
Jimsolo wrote: Like, a mini release? Or an actual codex?
Sounds like an actual codex. The rumor is from Darnok on Warseer who has a superb track record for rumors. This is the guy who leaked Wraithblades, Spiritseers, a psychic flyer, and the Wraithknight long before the Eldar codex was released so he seems to have an inside source.
If you're running a MSU list then a Knight really isn't that much of a threat. I'd be tempted to ignore it and kill the other stuff in the list.
Also I think a couple Venoms full of blasterborn are decent. Or blasterborn coming out of a Webway portal with an Archon w/blaster, rear arc where the shield doesn't work.
mercury14 wrote: If you're running a MSU list then a Knight really isn't that much of a threat. I'd be tempted to ignore it and kill the other stuff in the list.
Also I think a couple Venoms full of blasterborn are decent. Or blasterborn coming out of a Webway portal with an Archon w/blaster, rear arc where the shield doesn't work.
Someone said today the knight player gets to decide where the shield faces during your shooting phase? So I guess that's less than reliable.
Allied Fire Dragons or Dark Reaper in a gunboat would be my pick for the best solution, honestly.
mercury14 wrote: If you're running a MSU list then a Knight really isn't that much of a threat. I'd be tempted to ignore it and kill the other stuff in the list.
Also I think a couple Venoms full of blasterborn are decent. Or blasterborn coming out of a Webway portal with an Archon w/blaster, rear arc where the shield doesn't work.
Someone said today the knight player gets to decide where the shield faces during your shooting phase? So I guess that's less than reliable.
Allied Fire Dragons or Dark Reaper in a gunboat would be my pick for the best solution, honestly.
IIRC, they still can't position the shield in the rear arc.
mercury14 wrote: If you're running a MSU list then a Knight really isn't that much of a threat. I'd be tempted to ignore it and kill the other stuff in the list.
Also I think a couple Venoms full of blasterborn are decent. Or blasterborn coming out of a Webway portal with an Archon w/blaster, rear arc where the shield doesn't work.
Someone said today the knight player gets to decide where the shield faces during your shooting phase? So I guess that's less than reliable.
Allied Fire Dragons or Dark Reaper in a gunboat would be my pick for the best solution, honestly.
IIRC, they still can't position the shield in the rear arc.
Ithink there is only one Knight that cant put the shield on the rear arc. all the other knights can , but I dont have the codex to actually check it up, going off what my friends are telling me
The basic Knights most assuredly can shield rear arc. Maybe one/some of the Forgeworld ones cannot, but I certainly haven't faced all of them, so I dunno.
@Jimsolo - also, yes, they most assuredly get to face them at the start of the opponent's shooting phase.
Thor665 wrote: The basic Knights most assuredly can shield rear arc. Maybe one/some of the Forgeworld ones cannot, but I certainly haven't faced all of them, so I dunno.
So in my game yesterday, my unit of 4 Grotesques and a Succubus were assaulted by a Flyrant and insta-deathed it, losing no models. Then on my turn they assaulted a Carnifex and insta-deathed it too before it could even act. Grotesques are superb...
Lol, I think that particular encounter might not be representative of their performance on the whole. But I agree that they are awesome sauce in this edition.
I can't say I'm too surprised by how well the Grotesques did. Maybe surprised that they killed the Flyrant in one turn, but that is a matchup that favors the Grots. In close combat, the only thing they really fear are Str 10 attacks/Instant Death and/or Force weapons. I still kind of get the sense that Grots are a little under the radar in terms of how good they are, at least to people who don't play Dark Eldar. I've had a few opponents be unpleasantly surprised by what Grots did to their deathstar units when they got their hands on them.
Well I can see the pessimism covered in this thread about DE in a competitive environment. But I have some good news for the hardcore DE junkie. I actually came up with a pretty gossamer (pun intended) list that shocked the hell out of my buddy (I was using his minis), and in the process got him excited about DE again. Let's just say the list tabled him on turn one...
I've been seeing battle reports of DE null deployment lists using an allied Autarch and Scalpel squadrons. I'm scratching my head as to how this is legal though, given the rules saying at least half your units have to be deployed. Can someone comment?
mercury14 wrote: I've been seeing battle reports of DE null deployment lists using an allied Autarch and Scalpel squadrons. I'm scratching my head as to how this is legal though, given the rules saying at least half your units have to be deployed. Can someone comment?
Because in 7th edition you no longer are required to have half your army deployed.
mercury14 wrote: I've been seeing battle reports of DE null deployment lists using an allied Autarch and Scalpel squadrons. I'm scratching my head as to how this is legal though, given the rules saying at least half your units have to be deployed. Can someone comment?
You aren't required to deploy half, just have models on the board at the end of the turn. And since the Scalpel Squadron deploys 1st turn, it's no problem. (Personally, I think Autarchs are a waste in thes builds, but that's up to taste.)
I don't think Autarchs are a waste because paired with Reaver Jetbikes they make a very hard hitting unit, the Autarch can tank shots at the reavers as well. Plus the Reavers give the Autarch hit and run. Lance, Banshee Mask, Fusion gun, Jetbike and you are GTG with the Autarch.
I have my Autarch in a similar role, but cheaper with only a jetbike and lance. Or if I'm feeling indulgent I'll take the Celestial Lance from the Iyanden book. Path of Strategy really helps with my Razorwing and deep-striking Scourges (and sometimes Blasterborn).
mercury14 wrote: I've been seeing battle reports of DE null deployment lists using an allied Autarch and Scalpel squadrons. I'm scratching my head as to how this is legal though, given the rules saying at least half your units have to be deployed. Can someone comment?
I won't give it all away, but hinges on the scalpel strike plus an Archon deathstar. You need to tie a corsair detachment in this list to make it work seamlessly.
if it involves attaching anything to the scalpel squadrons and DSing them turn 1 its not legal, as the attached models are not units from that formation[the scalpel squadron].
Jimsolo wrote: That's the first good Autarch build I've seen; thanks for that. That being said, I think a Farseer or two would bring more to the table.
It's cheap too, 120 total I think. If you drop the fusion gun and the Lance, and go with a Celestial Lance he's like 130 total, still gets a ST8 shot that's a lance and hits with a ST6 AP2.
So add in
6 - 9 Reaver Jetbikes with Caltrops and Heat Lances , throw that in there. Boom.
You're getting 2D6 ST6 Rending and 4 ST6 AP3 hits, in addition that you've got a Fusion gun and 2 to 3 melta guns.
A Autaurch w/ that build and 6 Reaver jetbikes with 2 Lances and 2 Caltoprs comes to a paltry 266.
blaktoof wrote: I have a strong feeling its not actually legal.
if it involves attaching anything to the scalpel squadrons and DSing them turn 1 its not legal, as the attached models are not units from that formation[the scalpel squadron].
Nothing is attached to the formation, they just back up the alpha strike DS. Corsairs are the key though.
The formation lends to the build either by tying up shooty threats or punishing a hard target by aiding the DS.
Jimsolo wrote: That's the first good Autarch build I've seen; thanks for that. That being said, I think a Farseer or two would bring more to the table.
It's cheap too, 120 total I think. If you drop the fusion gun and the Lance, and go with a Celestial Lance he's like 130 total, still gets a ST8 shot that's a lance and hits with a ST6 AP2.
So add in
6 - 9 Reaver Jetbikes with Caltrops and Heat Lances , throw that in there. Boom.
You're getting 2D6 ST6 Rending and 4 ST6 AP3 hits, in addition that you've got a Fusion gun and 2 to 3 melta guns.
A Autaurch w/ that build and 6 Reaver jetbikes with 2 Lances and 2 Caltoprs comes to a paltry 266.
Definitely not awful. I just can't get past using an Eldar HQ slot and not getting a Telepathy Farseer (especially since we're talking about going Covens anyway).
mercury14 wrote: I've been seeing battle reports of DE null deployment lists using an allied Autarch and Scalpel squadrons. I'm scratching my head as to how this is legal though, given the rules saying at least half your units have to be deployed. Can someone comment?
I won't give it all away, but hinges on the scalpel strike plus an Archon deathstar. You need to tie a corsair detachment in this list to make it work seamlessly.
What would a Corsair CAD bring other than more deep striking?
Hollismason wrote: I'm surprised not to see more Dark Eldar armies with allied in Hornets and shadow weavers.
A lot of folks are still allergic to Forgeworld. It's really odd to me.
The price is egregious. And secondhand minis are difficult to obtain, at least moreso than standard plastic ones.
As GW gets more and more expensive Forgeworld becomes less and less outrageous if you want to stay in the hobby. Not to mention that they have some awesome sculpts, and fun units.
So I played a few games over the week(first time playing DE since new codex). I must say, they really surprised me. 3+ jink is pretty nice to have; warrior gun boats with splinter racks also was nice to have.
The units that stood out the most were the venoms for sure. I played against SM,BA,Nurgle Daemons and Necrons. The hardest time I had was against the BA and their low scatter DS.
The Ravager is $5 more expensive, approximately, but only if you don't consider the ridiculously high international shipping, which jacks up FW prices to the point of unaffordability.
Wellll...if you order over something like $500 you get free shipping. I believe they hand out free shipping vouchers occasionally, but you may have to order something small to get one, or know someone who bought something and won't use it.
Don't they ship for free to GW stores as well?
And if you go to a convention where they'll be present you can pick it up there for no extra charge(such as Gencon in Indianapolis).
Sinful Hero wrote: Wellll...if you order over something like $500 you get free shipping. I believe they hand out free shipping vouchers occasionally, but you may have to order something small to get one, or know someone who bought something and won't use it.
Don't they ship for free to GW stores as well?
And if you go to a convention where they'll be present you can pick it up there for no extra charge(such as Gencon in Indianapolis).
Unfortunately, there are no major cons or GWs anywhere near those of us stranded in the middle of the swamp in Southern Illinois.
I go to the Elk Grove GW when we visit my wife's family up there, (Matt runs a great shop!) but that's way too far of a drive just to save the shipping costs.
mercury14 wrote: Ravagers are better at hurting AV13 and much better against AV14 than Hornets.
Agreed - and even at the price point it's 125 v. 125, right? So it's not even a savings for army construction.
I guess it depends on how much AV 10-12 and how much AV 13+ you see in your meta, and also whether you are already taking Eldar as a flavor to your army, really.
Jimsolo wrote: I go to the Elk Grove GW when we visit my wife's family up there, (Matt runs a great shop!) but that's way too far of a drive just to save the shipping costs.
If you had it shipped to his store, would he then ship it to you? I'm guessing this may be a cheaper way... if "Matt" is willing to do it.
mercury14 wrote: Ravagers are better at hurting AV13 and much better against AV14 than Hornets.
Agreed - and even at the price point it's 125 v. 125, right? So it's not even a savings for army construction.
I guess it depends on how much AV 10-12 and how much AV 13+ you see in your meta, and also whether you are already taking Eldar as a flavor to your army, really.
It's no longer 125 for Hornets, they're substantially cheaper now. Price point is like 190 for two hornets with 4 Pulse Lasers. Also they have the special movement rules etc..
I think it's like 80 points base for a Hornet with 2 Pulse Lasers.
The ravager to me is just like pointless, it's to expensive for what it brings, I'd rather go with a Dark Eldar Raider list and take 3 Razorwings with more fire power and 3 less Dark Lance shot than a Ravager.
Ravager Load out = 3 Dark Lances, Night Shields = 140
Razorwing Dark Lances, 4 Missiles, Splinter cannon , Night shields = 165
I know which one I'd rather take. It's just not a contest.
mercury14 wrote: Ravagers are better at hurting AV13 and much better against AV14 than Hornets.
Agreed - and even at the price point it's 125 v. 125, right? So it's not even a savings for army construction.
I guess it depends on how much AV 10-12 and how much AV 13+ you see in your meta, and also whether you are already taking Eldar as a flavor to your army, really.
It's no longer 125 for Hornets, they're substantially cheaper now. Price point is like 190 for two hornets with 4 Pulse Lasers. Also they have the special movement rules etc..
I think it's like 80 points base for a Hornet with 2 Pulse Lasers.
The ravager to me is just like pointless, it's to expensive for what it brings, I'd rather go with a Dark Eldar Raider list and take 3 Razorwings with more fire power and 3 less Dark Lance shot than a Ravager.
Ravager Load out = 3 Dark Lances, Night Shields = 140
Razorwing Dark Lances, 4 Missiles, Splinter cannon , Night shields = 165
I know which one I'd rather take. It's just not a contest.
I have never really had a problem with ravagers.... So far they have done the job I have set for them. That's all I could ask for. Reapers are great, but so far my experiences with "One hit wonders" has been very bad.
Yeah although I find Ravagers aren't outright bad they are a bit underwhelming for their points cost now. I think the Razorwing is one of the better value flyers in the game, I just wish they had given us an option with one of the missiles to not be a blast so it could hit other flyers.
ryuken87 wrote: Yeah although I find Ravagers aren't outright bad they are a bit underwhelming for their points cost now. I think the Razorwing is one of the better value flyers in the game, I just wish they had given us an option with one of the missiles to not be a blast so it could hit other flyers.
It seems the Fighter has a Multi purpose role. That's what makes it nice to have
ryuken87 wrote: Yeah although I find Ravagers aren't outright bad they are a bit underwhelming for their points cost now. I think the Razorwing is one of the better value flyers in the game, I just wish they had given us an option with one of the missiles to not be a blast so it could hit other flyers.
I'm painting up a second Razorwing for exactly this reason, they seem very good for their points. A pair of them coming across the map in formation really hurts stuff without preventing you from still running MSU.
ryuken87 wrote: Yeah although I find Ravagers aren't outright bad they are a bit underwhelming for their points cost now. I think the Razorwing is one of the better value flyers in the game, I just wish they had given us an option with one of the missiles to not be a blast so it could hit other flyers.
It seems the Fighter has a Multi purpose role. That's what makes it nice to have
I still like it, I'd just like it better if the Razorwing could be kitted out as a dedicated anti-air option akin to the Crimson Hunter (what I imagine a "fighter plane" should be) and the Voidraven for ground forces. The missiles are good, I especially like Shatterfields, but we already have hundreds of poison shots which do the same job. The Voidraven is just a bit flimsy to justify its points. We're talking Stormraven/Stormwolf points once you put the missiles on it.
Another thing going for the Razorwing is the price of the kit. £23 from discount sites is very good going for a GW product.
EDIT: Also, it would have been better had the Razorwing stayed in Heavy Support!
Hollismason wrote: The ravager to me is just like pointless, it's to expensive for what it brings, I'd rather go with a Dark Eldar Raider list and take 3 Razorwings with more fire power and 3 less Dark Lance shot than a Ravager.
Ravager Load out = 3 Dark Lances, Night Shields = 140
Razorwing Dark Lances, 4 Missiles, Splinter cannon , Night shields = 165
I know which one I'd rather take. It's just not a contest.
Unfortunately there is no way to "fit" a Dark Artisan in it that I can find and a Scalpel Squadron. Dark Artisan is my favourite formation. At least not in 1850.
I gotta say, y'all are starting to grow my mild interest in Dark Eldar into an obsession! They seem a lot less daunting now that I have read so much about them.
Yep. A Grotesquerie and/or a Dark Artisan supported by Venoms, Ravagers, Scourges, and Razorwings is a very effective DE build. I'm really curious to see how Frankie from Frontline Gaming does with his tournament DE list which revolves around a Corpsethief Claw formation, Razorwings, Venoms, and Ravagers. He hasn't put up any batreps yet but from what he and Reece have said on the FLG podcast, he's been doing really well it and has only lost the entire Corpsethief Claw unit in one game.
I'd be more interested if his list was unambiguously battle forged. He has 2 lhamean as the only hq to get 2 venoms. Many people don't think courts are a separate hq choice, and I know the ITC faq rules they are but the people who make up The ITC have ruled yes to some questionable things because it supports an army build the desire to play.
I ran Coven (Grotesquerie, Dark Artisan, Scalpel squadron) last night for the first time and tore apart a Tyrannid list in CC. And wow was it FUN and satisfying to just charge in and tear them limb from limb! My opponent wasn't expecting it at all...
I also ran a small Corsair CAD and put a Princess with shimmershield in one of the units of Grotesques to give them all a nice 5++. That unit killed a huge unit of gaunts (LOL rampage), an Exocrene (with a little help), a Tyrannid Warrior, and one of those new Tyrannid drop pods that was camping on an objective.
And my Scalpel Squadron got a 3-point first blood.
Fair enough. If you're waiting for GW to officially FAQ this before you accept it, then you might be in for a long wait. Until then, we only have what they wrote in the codex and the GW employee's response when asked a direct question about it to go off of.
sweetbacon wrote: Fair enough. If you're waiting for GW to officially FAQ this before you accept it, then you might be in for a long wait. Until then, we only have what they wrote in the codex and the GW employee's response when asked a direct question about it to go off of.
I play Dark Eldar, and have since before the models were released for sale
A single response from a single employee is not a basis for rules decision, often in the past the people you e-mail have given different responses to the same question when asked about a rule. That is why its not considered valid.
And while I agree that it could be a long wait, with a duration of possibly never, I would rather err on the side of not taking advantage when something is definitely questionable. Of course if you ask your TO ahead of time if its okay, they have time to discuss it and come to a ruling before the tournament- which is a nice thing to let them do. I think many tournaments will allow it, mainly because there are many armies that are popular (not dark eldar) that have units that require the same wording to take, ie honor guard, priests, command squads, lone wolves, etc- and many of those players would prefer those options, as they give you more shooting without having to spend points on HQs.
The CAD rules that some people play and locals play actually hurts Dark Eldar the most as the Coven formations are seriously amazing.
Formation limiting will hurt armies like Dark Eldar for a while until people get on the band wagon for pro formation. Adepticon is a little less stringent allowing 1 of each though.
I don't know what the rest of a Grotesquirie , Scalpel, Dark Artisan would even be maybe this would be good?
Elites
5 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch w/ Fast Shot (130)
Troops
3 x Windrider Jetbikes (51)
3 x Windrider Jetbikes (51)
Fast Attack
Crimson Hunter (160)
Totals : 1802
I'd honestly just go straight Eldar Primary , go with MSU of Jetbikes, get 2 spirit seers and put with the Grotesques rolling Runes of Battle and Telepathy, it's null deployment.
Also the Haemonoculus from the Grotesquirie gives the Fire Dragons Fearless, maybe go with something else for the Autarch, who I have no idea how to equip on the ground.
I'd guess you could go with 3 Spirit Seers , then take a Comm Relay Fortification but that's all I can think of. If a Spirit seer is in the same squad with the Haemy from the Dark Eldar codex then he's getting -1 on the LD for Psychic Shriek.
Hey peoples. So I haven't played 40k in over a year now and just picked up 7th and everything for coven (which I loved playing in 5th and 6th). I do have a question though that I just can't seem to find an answer for; with the grotesquerie formation, is there much use if you happen to roll the fleet rule? It doesn't transfer as far as I can see, and haemonculi don't have it. So you would have to run the squad without one in, which when your fearless largely negates the abysmal leadership, but means you have one less turn on PfP (unless you have urien; which I always do, but means everyone has to stick fairly close together). Or have another detachment with a fleet character running with them? (which seems like a large amount of effort just to go through incase you just happen to get that rule)
Thoughts? I tried searching for this, but couldn't find anything, if it's already been discussed can someone show me where?
One of the relics a Haemonculus can take lets you choose from a selection of special rules to apply for the turn, one of which is Fleet. Syndriq's Sump or something.
I think the new supposed Harlequin release will allow Dark Eldar as Battle brothers, so that may add some more units to the army. Be interesting to see how that will work out.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I think they'll get a full update more than what the LotD got. Maybe we can take them as replacement Wyches.
Wyches arent that bad...you just got to know how to use them.
*puts the lid back on that can o' worms.*
Clearly they will be battle brothers, so it doesnt really matter whether its units, datasheets, formations or an entire codex! we all know were gona take em its just i cant currently build any of my army! as its a harle themed force.... so i have to wait :( as it might completely change the current dynamic i have intended :(
What harle units could be possible i think is a more interesting thought train;
solitaire as a HQ or atleast a customisable wargear model
generic harlequins as troops or the filler models
jesters as some sort of HS or long range unit
other units? ive found it hard to find much fluff on harle's
Then, how would this alter the DE dynamic?
I imagine they will bring some psychic powers, some CC punch most likely. I hope they are certainly varied from the shooty CWE and the shooty or choppy DE but being eldar, most likely still low T, low S, probably a poor save, with some cover shenanigans, i cant see them really pushing the boat out other than releasing more units/making them more varied and customisable.
I am expecting a Militarum Tempestus style codex where they are there own faction with their own army list, that has about 4 datasheets and only fills out 1-3 slot types for a force org chart, probably HQ/Troops maybe FA.
Most likely they will bring a psyker, the shadowseer which will be ML1 and have a set power we have seen before.
The jetbike harlies will be a gem, since it will probably give them a 3+ armor save, and they will probably have skilled rider+jink or a ++ of some kind.
Which will give a fairly durable very fast unit which would be pretty sweet to have.
other units could be Mimes. which were basically what scouts are to Space marines for harlequins. Given how they said the kits will be, would have to be a combo kit with the harlequins and we have been told via rumors that one of the 2 box sets will be a combi kit for infantry..
I currently play CWE and am working on my Wych cult DE army for play this summer. I'm not really excited for the Harlies for my CWE but I think they'll be tons of fun in my Wych army (I'm going for a Geisha bath-house theme sort of entertainment theme for my Wych cult as opposed to their usual coliseum thing) I think some Harlies will fit quite nicely in with that theme and add some variety to my forces.
And before anyone jumps on it, I know a Wych cult force is not "top tier". I play for fun and style before competitiveness. Any match where I put a beautifully painted and styled army on the table is a win for me regardless of score. It helps our group is amazing fun and we all play casually for beer and fun over wins.
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I currently play CWE and am working on my Wych cult DE army for play this summer. I'm not really excited for the Harlies for my CWE but I think they'll be tons of fun in my Wych army (I'm going for a Geisha bath-house theme sort of entertainment theme for my Wych cult as opposed to their usual coliseum thing) I think some Harlies will fit quite nicely in with that theme and add some variety to my forces.
And before anyone jumps on it, I know a Wych cult force is not "top tier". I play for fun and style before competitiveness. Any match where I put a beautifully painted and styled army on the table is a win for me regardless of score. It helps our group is amazing fun and we all play casually for beer and fun over wins.
I like that theme, can't wait to see piccies you should do a shot everytime you score a VP could get very interesting being that the further your lead the less sound your tactics become! till by turn 5-6 your just a drunken general
other units could be Mimes. which were basically what scouts are to Space marines for harlequins. Given how they said the kits will be, would have to be a combo kit with the harlequins and we have been told via rumors that one of the 2 box sets will be a combi kit for infantry..
where can one find said rumours? - NVM I found them with a little googling
Inevitable_Faith wrote: I currently play CWE and am working on my Wych cult DE army for play this summer. I'm not really excited for the Harlies for my CWE but I think they'll be tons of fun in my Wych army (I'm going for a Geisha bath-house theme sort of entertainment theme for my Wych cult as opposed to their usual coliseum thing) I think some Harlies will fit quite nicely in with that theme and add some variety to my forces.
And before anyone jumps on it, I know a Wych cult force is not "top tier". I play for fun and style before competitiveness. Any match where I put a beautifully painted and styled army on the table is a win for me regardless of score. It helps our group is amazing fun and we all play casually for beer and fun over wins.
I like that theme, can't wait to see piccies you should do a shot everytime you score a VP could get very interesting being that the further your lead the less sound your tactics become! till by turn 5-6 your just a drunken general
Haha not a bad idea at all! I think for this force in keeping with the Geisha theme I may have to do a tea ceremony before every match to really get the mood going. I could even offer to pour a cup for my opponent. Poisoned of course. Nothing says DE player like having ones opponent slump into a coma across the table by the start of turn 3
As for the pics they may be a while. Gotta wrap up my CWE army before I move to the next project. Got 1000 points done, only 1000 more points to go, on the docket right now is converting up some striking scorpions out of Wood elves glade guards and some guardians. Going for a guerrilla warfare vibe with them.
mercury14 wrote: The Harlequin solitaire is getting rules and a model next week. Let's hope it offers us something that our codex units don't already give us.
mercury14 wrote: The Harlequin solitaire is getting rules and a model next week. Let's hope it offers us something that our codex units don't already give us.
lots of things triggering off hits instead of wounds. cannot be joined by characters when old solitaire was not allowed to join anything, hence the name 'solitaire'
Would be nice if they changed the rules to kiss as stated in rumor.
As a De player, do you feel like your army is doing well? At first I thought my paper planes would just all be destroyed asap. But so far, I have been having some good luck with the army and have not been disappointed...I have been using Real Space raider detachment, Love it!. What are your thoughts and favorite builds/units currently? I would have to say talos and succubus
I know if I asked my opponents that they would say they hate when I use my dark eldar, so that seems like a sign. I think they've been doing very well but I haven't gotten to experiment which many of the coven units outside of the dark artisan formation so far.
Almost finished my grotesqurie to start fielding them, but my strongest performers have generally been my venoms and razorwing jetfighters. I am sad about cutting some units like wyches and ravagers almost completely from my lists though.
lessthanjeff wrote: I know if I asked my opponents that they would say they hate when I use my dark eldar, so that seems like a sign. I think they've been doing very well but I haven't gotten to experiment which many of the coven units outside of the dark artisan formation so far.
Almost finished my grotesqurie to start fielding them, but my strongest performers have generally been my venoms and razorwing jetfighters. I am sad about cutting some units like wyches and ravagers almost completely from my lists though.
I took a break from DE and started playing them again recently. I must say, they seem to be really good. I was trying to use units that I like , so I fielded some wyches with succubus. Seems like a nice lock down unit when you add the succubus. Grots have been very great! I still have yet to test out scourges and hellions, so I will invest in a few boxes of those. Which army has been your most difficult to play against?
I've been winning at least 75% or my games with Dark Eldar since the codex came out. In local tournaments (usually 12-18 players), I've taken 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 7th. Not only that but I've won with a large variety of units and lists. My opponents never know what I'm bringing.
I don't feel Dark Eldar are subpar against any army, in fact I think they're a foil to everyone.*
* Except against wave serpent spam but that' OP crap is just a given to be strong against almost everything so it's not really worth mentioning.
Hey I just wanted to jump in and say that I recently played my first game of Dark Eldar with their new codex, and even my first game of Dark Eldar in 7th.
and the game was at 2,000 points and I took absolutely no vehicles. And the only reason I lost was because of a Hive Crone and a Dimachaeron. And I had too much anti-tank weaponry in haywire blaster scourges.
Have any of you tried out using a foot-slogging list for DE? I used a wall of 60 kabalite warriors. 3 units of 20 and in between were two spirit probe cronos to boost their FNP.
Icculus wrote: Hey I just wanted to jump in and say that I recently played my first game of Dark Eldar with their new codex, and even my first game of Dark Eldar in 7th.
and the game was at 2,000 points and I took absolutely no vehicles. And the only reason I lost was because of a Hive Crone and a Dimachaeron. And I had too much anti-tank weaponry in haywire blaster scourges.
Have any of you tried out using a foot-slogging list for DE? I used a wall of 60 kabalite warriors. 3 units of 20 and in between were two spirit probe cronos to boost their FNP.
I havent tried this with the warriors, But I want to try it with wracks and coven list. I used reaver jet bikes the other day and wow...Just wow. They killed an autharch , SS, and a WS with Hammer of wrath.
I will try to use a wyche cult army list sometime soon. I will need more helions then I will be set
I haven't done a horde of foot warriors since 3rd edition. Using it against a Tyranid army and losing doesn't seem to speak well for its effectiveness though because that's generally a very easy matchup for us. I like taking lots of warriors, but I'd still want them in transports for the protection and mobility they provide.
I think knights make me the most nervous matchup wise. Their existence makes me tend towards a squad of fire dragons in a raider with a webway portal for the ability to hit an unshielded side. I'd like to have some other reliable ways to knock one out but even when I try a similar setup with blasterborn it is significantly inferior in effect.
What do people think of the Solitaire? He is fast and undeniably deadily, but i can't help but think of him as a faster, better protected Eversor Assassin. And who uses them?
On the other hand he is fast enough to keep up with our other assault threats such as Grotesques and Incubi in Raiders as well as Reavers. I feel he could have a place in the list due to his ability to actually ravage vehicles (6's to glance with 12 attacks on any turn) or ravage elite units.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: What do people think of the Solitaire? He is fast and undeniably deadily, but i can't help but think of him as a faster, better protected Eversor Assassin. And who uses them?
On the other hand he is fast enough to keep up with our other assault threats such as Grotesques and Incubi in Raiders as well as Reavers. I feel he could have a place in the list due to his ability to actually ravage vehicles (6's to glance with 12 attacks on any turn) or ravage elite units.
He is also pretty. Let's not forget that.
Harlies in genaeral with DE just looks like a nice idea....They fit in more with DE than our Kin.... Im going to buy the new models as soon as they are released, The Solitaire just looks sexy.
Just started getting into DE as I am building a stand-in army for them, but I will say currently my 2 favorite units are an archon with portal attached to 4 medusae in a venom, amazing first blood unit. As well the grotesquerie, any of the die results are good, and that unit gibs just about anything it touches.
ryuken87 wrote: I think that may be because Tyranids are very, very good with a couple of specific builds/formations, but otherwise pretty average.
So pretty much like every other codex?
To be honest, I think they can be a pretty even match-up. It just depends on generalship. A Splinterboat has a good chance to take down an unsupported Flyrant, while the Flyrant can do the same to the Splinterboat. Whoever masters positioning wins the match.
Maybe it's that I don't run splinterboats. I can take 2 venoms and 2 warrior squads inside for less than the cost of each flyrant. That gives me 44 poisoned shots to shoot against him while he can only knock out one of the 4 units in his turn. There's also a solid chance of getting a skyfire objective somewhere on the board that I hastily swarm over. I've never fought more than 3 fliers in a tyranid list, but with dark eldar I don't think I've ever lost a match. The flyrants are about the only threat to my list it seems like. Everything else I'm generally able to outdistance and outrange to death.
The necron codex has pretty much been spilled at this point. Any thoughts on how DE look against them.
T5 Wraiths with the beast type going on I5 that are laughably under-costed at 40-43 points kind of scare me. Everyone is going to run a dozen of them now because why not? And their jetbikes shoot S6 small blasts that ignore cover for just a little over 20 pts.
Tesla got nerfed, as did Annihilation barges so that's good.
mercury14 wrote: The necron codex has pretty much been spilled at this point. Any thoughts on how DE look against them.
T5 Wraiths with the beast type going on I5 that are laughably under-costed at 40-43 points kind of scare me. Everyone is going to run a dozen of them now because why not? And their jetbikes shoot S6 small blasts that ignore cover for just a little over 20 pts.
Tesla got nerfed, as did Annihilation barges so that's good.
From the Necron Perspective, You guys are in trouble.
The Decurion is the new big thing, which creates a 4+ RP for every model that is it available. The new RP is like a super FNP. This makes it extreamly hard to put down enough Necrons before they can cripple your Army.
Factor in that nearly everything in the Codex got either cheaper, better, or both. Things like the Obelisk, which is an AV 14 Superheavy with 4 Tesla Spheres that shot 5 Tesla shots each, and can be taken in one of the formations with the Decurion.
Tomb Blades with Gauss Blasters will blow apart anything, and have insane durability for their points.
The Decurion is going to be an uphill battle for every Army, not just Dark Eldar.
mercury14 wrote: The necron codex has pretty much been spilled at this point. Any thoughts on how DE look against them.
T5 Wraiths with the beast type going on I5 that are laughably under-costed at 40-43 points kind of scare me. Everyone is going to run a dozen of them now because why not? And their jetbikes shoot S6 small blasts that ignore cover for just a little over 20 pts.
Tesla got nerfed, as did Annihilation barges so that's good.
From the Necron Perspective, You guys are in trouble.
The Decurion is the new big thing, which creates a 4+ RP for every model that is it available. The new RP is like a super FNP. This makes it extreamly hard to put down enough Necrons before they can cripple your Army.
Factor in that nearly everything in the Codex got either cheaper, better, or both. Things like the Obelisk, which is an AV 14 Superheavy with 4 Tesla Spheres that shot 5 Tesla shots each, and can be taken in one of the formations with the Decurion.
Tomb Blades with Gauss Blasters will blow apart anything, and have insane durability for their points.
The Decurion is going to be an uphill battle for every Army, not just Dark Eldar.
Annihilation barges look like they got worse and it still looks like there are a bunch of units nobody will ever take. Both Necron flyers got worse. Tomb blades look good but if they jink they can't shoot at least. The Obelisk looks good but a lot of metas and tournaments still don't allow superheavy vehicles.
As for the Harlies I'm very excited to add them to my DE force. The Caress seems very fun and the embrace can be really fun too given it's points cost. I don't care about the kiss so much though, I feel it's too reliant on a lucky six and you get 1 dice to use it with. I'm very curious about their transport though, I want to see what that offers us,
Necron is also something I'm excited for. There seems to be a lot of good stuff in their new dex but nothing I have heard so far scares me too much, it seems (and I know this word is blasphemy in relation to GW products) balanced for the most part. I haven't heard of any useless units or wargear (though some did get a hard nerf but those ones really needed a nerf though...I'm looking at you MSS). I feel the new Necron will be a decent fight for anyone and should be ,ore fun than their current iteration.
Solitare looks like a great addition. I like that hes a solo man, means you can run him for reasonable fun without feeling like you have to plant him with X unit to make them good, or to make him good. I will certainly be adding some harlies to my harle themed DE/CWE!
Oh I laughed at the MSS nerf.... as last time I played crons I forgot MSS and charged his court/lord star (which I had just nuked directly with a STR10 SAG shot - removing the court with ID), his 2 lords and 1 IC then with MSS killed my warboss, my bike mek (who had the SAG) along with all the bikes... instantly I was like oh fail..
But then I remember I play orks and then I realised a 3D6 fear check is still a little iffy for me! but atleast if they run they can potentially regroup... rather than having my warboss kill everyone in the unit.
Honestly, the wraiths wont be that big of a deal. Treat them like any other 3+ save and kill them with volume of shots.
The tomb blades will be a pain with the new weapon....But other than that, im not too worried about the new codex. The apoc unit looks nasty, but my group doesnt use too many super heavy units(except IK).
Yeah I've watched those things destroy many a force. Having my chaos lord turn around and stomp his unit of termies, not fun. Having my Eldar farseer swing his singing spear at his own bikers... sucked. Watching my friends two riptides one turn after the other punch themselves to death, well that one was hilarious but still... The nice thing about the fear test though is that now anything that can get fearless can negate it. Also isn't a fear test just dropping you to WS1 BS1 for the round it applies? I don't think it makes you run away right away. If it did in this case then those scarabs are scary still cause if you fear ad run away then he has a chance to sweeping advance possibly?
And yeah the Solitaire looks nice, both model and rules. I'm looking forward to seeing the pressure both him and my succubus can put on the field.
Necrons don't do to well with really high toughness values. Dark Artisans, and Grotesques will clean up. A Grotesques squad with the a Haemonoculus will in fact kill a Wraith Squad in CC, they get to many INSTANT DEATH, Wound on a 2+ Attacks. 5 Grotesques charging a WRaith Squad they don't care about their rending claws and they are ST6 with wounding on 3s.
5 Grotesques @ 35 points get the charge, so that's like a lot of attacks.Especially if they've got something crazy like Rage or +1 Toughness.
5 Grotesques with Rage on the Charge is going to be a average of 45 attacks. All that wound on a 2+ and Instant Death on a 6, remember if they have Reanimation protocol it's only a 5+ against Instant Death.
Hollismason wrote: Necrons don't do to well with really high toughness values. Dark Artisans, and Grotesques will clean up. A Grotesques squad with the a Haemonoculus will in fact kill a Wraith Squad in CC, they get to many INSTANT DEATH, Wound on a 2+ Attacks. 5 Grotesques charging a WRaith Squad they don't care about their rending claws and they are ST6 with wounding on 3s.
5 Grotesques @ 35 points get the charge, so that's like a lot of attacks.Especially if they've got something crazy like Rage or +1 Toughness.
5 Grotesques with Rage on the Charge is going to be a average of 45 attacks. All that wound on a 2+ and Instant Death on a 6, remember if they have Reanimation protocol it's only a 5+ against Instant Death.
6 Wraith's do 4 Wounds retaliating (18 attacks in total) 5 Grotesques do 2.06 Wounds on the charge, with Rage and 3 on Rampage for each Grotesque (45 attacks in total).
I can't see Grotesques winning against Wraiths, or at least easily, especially in subsequent turns in combat. (you even stastistically lose a Grotesque before they swing, so it's even less than the stat above) It will be a very long combat, thanks to that 3+ invulnerable (and RP if from the Canoptek formation).
(also Wraiths are T5 so Grotesques wound on 4+, unless they get +1S on the chart)
I'll update this post with data for Hatred Grots whn I've had a sleep :p
5 grots is 180pts without upgrades. Should compare against 4 wraiths as that is closer in points. 4 wwraiths with whipcoils are 176 pts.
Grots aren't going to win against wraiths easily, but whoever the winner is will be decided by one person rolling very well, and the other rolling very poorly for one round, otherwise they will come close to wiping each other out over 3-4 rounds of assault.
TBH I think flayed ones are a little scarier than wraiths now.
3 attacks base, WS4 S4 T4 shred, they come with two flayer claws so they get an offhand weapon. 13pts each. oh and they cause fear... they do suffer morale, but if there is a CCB within 12" they can reroll. They also get infiltrate and can come in packs of 20.
20 of them is 260 pts.
20 of them puts out 100 attacks, yes 100, on the charge at strength 4 with shred. Against WS 4 toughness 5 they will hit 50 times and cause 25 wounds. No idea if you can add characters to them in the new codex.
They get a 4+ save 5+ RP, and there are ways they could get a 4+ save 4+ RP with a reroll. If that happens it takes on average 24 poison shots to kill just 1.
Grotesques also have fearless and gain It Will not Die, Also I think your math is wrong. I don't think you counted the 6 + save they have base.
If Grots get +1 ST they reroll all wounds against the Wraiths
If Grots get +1 T , Wraiths Damage is again cut in half
If Grots get Rage and a charge +2 attacks per
If they get FNP 4+ another
You also need to take into account the fact they have a instant death weapon.
They get Zealot on Turn 5.
So yeah, if the Wraiths manage to turn 2 Charge the Grots (which is possible ) they'll do some maybe damage.
If the Grots get a turn 2 Charge and are bumped by Haemy or some other way, their getting through the Wraiths and the Wraiths just going to sit there all game or die.
Even if the wraiths get off a turn 2 charge on equal points of grots, chances are the assault is lasting until turn 4 or 5 and seeing the wraiths either dead or down to a model before the grots are done with.
Yeah that and the Grots get stronger as the turn goes on with gaining It Will not die. It seems like it at first your like oh wait that wouldn't work but it will. The Grotesque formation is really powerful and good.
Grots are nasty and all, but how are they getting into combat with the Wraiths, especially with the charge?
If they are taking a vehicle, that's a lot less grots, if they are footslogging, I find it very unlikely that an entire unit will get anywhere near a set of Wraiths, much less get the charge.
Yeah they do if you go first you should focus on killing the Spyder with shooting though because the Spyder only gives the ability on the first turn not before the game begins.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah they do if you go first you should focus on killing the Spyder with shooting though because the Spyder only gives the ability on the first turn not before the game begins.
But the spyder is only applying a +1to RP (so a +1 to FNP). I understand that 'kill the spyder first' is obviously logical, but I dont think its something you will always be able to do. First off, as a necron player i'd hide it out of LOS at game start, but within 6" of said wraiths. Turn 1 maybe move it out, while also stringing the wraith unit to within the 6" bubble. DE then kill it, but now its turn 2, and my 12" move, D6 run, followed by 12" move is most likely putting me in range of whatever my target was. Once in combat jobs done. wraiths alone are gona be pretty mean, I think the spyder in some cases will be a distraction to the fact that the wraiths are the real issue. I mean they will be out of range of the spyder pretty fast, in cases i'd just focus down the wraiths anyway. Or simply enough that a unit of grots, or something else can handle them. assuming people will run around 6 in the unit?
Spyder > wraiths is the most optimal situation, but isn't the always situation. Is 2 turns of shooting at 1 unit with +1FNP always < than shooting the spyder then shooting the wraiths?
In saying this; I think the spyder would be a prime target for the scalpel squadron. Single model MC unit, with 3+ I think. So T is negated by poison and with enough shots 3+ wont hold. Does the spyder also get the FNP? or is the spyder buffing only the wraiths (and scarabs?).
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't wraiths from Canoptek Harvest lose a few buffs if you pop the Spyder?
Deldar should have little to no problem scrubbing ground-pounding MCs.
It takes an average of 60 poison shots to kill a Spyder with the RP buff applied.
How many darklight shots?
I'm guessing the same amount to take out a single wraith(poison shots I mean)?
No, Spyders have 3 wounds compared to 2 on a Wraith.
10 Darklight shots, assuming no cover. Unlikely to not have cover though.
Either way, once RP is up on it, it takes a surprising amount of firepower to kill it.
I was curious, on a multiwound model do RP bring the model back to full health, or just prevents wounds like a save? If it doesn't die, does it still get the RP roll?
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't wraiths from Canoptek Harvest lose a few buffs if you pop the Spyder?
Deldar should have little to no problem scrubbing ground-pounding MCs.
It takes an average of 60 poison shots to kill a Spyder with the RP buff applied.
How many darklight shots?
I'm guessing the same amount to take out a single wraith(poison shots I mean)?
No, Spyders have 3 wounds compared to 2 on a Wraith.
10 Darklight shots, assuming no cover. Unlikely to not have cover though.
Either way, once RP is up on it, it takes a surprising amount of firepower to kill it.
I was curious, on a multiwound model do RP bring the model back to full health, or just prevents wounds like a save? If it doesn't die, does it still get the RP roll?
The new RP is like a super Feel no Pain. In that it can be taken even against Instant Death (Although with a -1 penalty)
vipoid wrote: I'm curious as to how people feel about combat Archons?
Do you find them worthwhile with no AP2 weapons?
Ive had luck running them so far. They either kill alot or cant find anything to kill since the rest of your army is killing.
Shadowfield is a must if you do run him as a CC beast.
Now back to the overestimated wraiths.... Shoot it with splinter weapons, watch as it dies to the volumes of shots. mathhammer is cool an all, but lets face it.... Everyone has a different exp than others with dice rolls. Dont let those numbers fool you.
vipoid wrote: I'm curious as to how people feel about combat Archons?
Do you find them worthwhile with no AP2 weapons?
Ive had luck running them so far. They either kill alot or cant find anything to kill since the rest of your army is killing.
Shadowfield is a must if you do run him as a CC beast.
Now back to the overestimated wraiths.... Shoot it with splinter weapons, watch as it dies to the volumes of shots. mathhammer is cool an all, but lets face it.... Everyone has a different exp than others with dice rolls. Dont let those numbers fool you.
Honestly in order to field the decurion and multiple dark harvest formations they need to forfeit a lot in the shooting department. It means we have more time to power up ourselves while shrinking their units to a more manageable size.
Also can someone clear up the dark harvest. The way I read it is it says 1 spyder, 3 wraiths amd a scarab swarm. Are these units, or models? because even with repair protocol a 3 man wraith unit is much easier to manage especially when you realize it makes staying to within a foot of that spyder WAY harder.
Hollismason wrote: It won't get the Reanimation on the first turn if you go first.
Good to know! Of course one can't always count on going first, or the Spyder being in line of sight. And that's still a ton of poison to get I to range first turn.
Why specifically doesn't Reanimation Protocols work on the first turn, or is it just they won't get the +1?
Hollismason wrote: It won't get the Reanimation on the first turn if you go first.
Good to know! Of course one can't always count on going first, or the Spyder being in line of sight. And that's still a ton of poison to get I to range first turn.
Why specifically doesn't Reanimation Protocols work on the first turn, or is it just they won't get the +1?
Ah ive been mistaken a little in my last posts.
spyder gives RP the rule, the decursion thingy gives the +1. So outside the spyder range they have no FNP whatsoever, nor on first turn if your going first.
Hollismason wrote: It won't get the Reanimation on the first turn if you go first.
Good to know! Of course one can't always count on going first, or the Spyder being in line of sight. And that's still a ton of poison to get I to range first turn.
Why specifically doesn't Reanimation Protocols work on the first turn, or is it just they won't get the +1?
Ah ive been mistaken a little in my last posts.
spyder gives RP the rule, the decursion thingy gives the +1. So outside the spyder range they have no FNP whatsoever, nor on first turn if your going first.
Ah, this is the info I was missing. So either nuke the Spyder or draw the Wraiths out of Range, and they'll be much easier to focus down.
Hollismason wrote: It's hard to hide out of LOS of a 2 Deep Striking Venoms and the 2 AP 2 2+ shots from the Wracks for 230 points.
I dunno what are the odds on 24 Poison Shots, and 2 AP 2 2+ killing a Spyder.
That's what the Scalpel Squadron has.
I'd say about right. 24 shots, 12 hits, 6 saves for 2 wounds then 2 shots for 1.4 hits and 1.2ish wounds.
plus the spyder is actually a valuable target, rather than simply the easiest to kill for 3VPs. So you can assume that once down, the wraiths will fall to volume of fire, then tbh most of the rest of the army (which has to be, 1 lord, immortals, warriors and tomb blades) should be easy to dismantle now the fast hitting assault unit is down.
Well then you gotta deal with the Wraiths' but honestly once they lose Obsec , T5 isn't that big a deal to Dark Eldar. You're basically shooting at something that has 2 wounds.
Red Corsair wrote: Also can someone clear up the dark harvest. The way I read it is it says 1 spyder, 3 wraiths amd a scarab swarm. Are these units, or models? because even with repair protocol a 3 man wraith unit is much easier to manage especially when you realize it makes staying to within a foot of that spyder WAY harder.
RAW it looks to be one Spyder model, one unit of Wraiths and one unit of Scarabs. So you could increase the number of Wraiths and Scarabs but not the Spyder (even in the rules it refers to the Spyder as 'Spyder' not 'unit of Spyders'. To me that implies you can't take more than one Spyder model in the formation.
I actually think as a whole we became much stronger against Necrons. If they try to spam the canoptek harvest they will be sorely lacking in ranged firepower which means we will maintain our mobility thus making the wraiths rather useless. I personally feeling way more confident against crons. Their AV13 is still a PITA but it looks as though they will be fielding half as many vehicles do to price hikes, and losing tesla from snap firing means we can out range their barges ans survive.
Sinful Hero wrote: Their Av13 we usually count as 12 anyway right? Or do they ignore the lance rule? We also still have our Haywire Scourges for Big Bads.
Yea sorry, I always look at it from the perspective of my Marines and DE. AV13 is a bitch to crack for both despite it being 12 for my DE. I usually run with less AT in both armies nowadays. My DE mostly looks to CC and my wraith knight I allie in (or will when he is done check my PM blog).
Red Corsair wrote: Their AV13 is still a PITA but it looks as though they will be fielding half as many vehicles do to price hikes, and losing tesla from snap firing means we can out range their barges ans survive.
Well, do bear in mind that the Ghost Ark not only got cheaper, but now also puts out twice the firepower at 24".
My opponent had a some sort of C'Tan, Obelisk, two units of those insufferable Tomb Blades, two units of 3 wraiths, two Ghost Arks full of warriors, an annihilation barge, Doom Scythe (or whatever the death ray flyer is), a Spyder crapping out scarabs, and maybe some other crap.
I got turn one and moved flat-out down the left flank with the three Wych units and the Archon, fading everything to that flank, thereby creating more distance with his wraiths deployed on the other side. The Venom got immobilized by the Obelisk's dangerous terrain radius. The Trueborn Venoms ended the C'Tan instantly in the shooting phase (easy peasy) while the blasters opened up on the Obelisk, leaving it with 2 hull points.
Turn one for the Necrons saw them open up on the charging Wyches and Archon unit, wrecking one of the Raiders and exploding the immobilized Venom, killing all but one Wych who was then pinned in the wreckage. The Archon's Venom escaped with just a shaken result after some flickerfielding. Their shooting was actually unremarkable except the Tomb Blades' S6 small blast of ignoring our defenses. The Wraiths ran into the center of the map, daring me to target them. The Obelisk's 20 shots combined for very little, just that exploded Venom and like one glancing hull point somewhere else.
Turn two all three of my flyers came in, raining down hot missile death on the Crons. The Bomber targeted Tomb blades and erased a full squad while the Razorwings dumped eight Monoscythe missiles into warriors, killing a stack of them and a few scarabs. Trueborn easily ended the Obelisk which then nicely exploded on a Ghost Ark, immobilizing it at an angle where its gun wasn't facing anything. Splinter fire weakened his Spyder down to one wound.
My assault phase was successful with both large Wych squads reaching units of warriors while the Archon and his Sslyths jumped on the Spyder but neither side took a wound. Both Wych squads won combat but the Necrons held.
Necron turn two his flyer came in and did absolutely nothing to a Trueborn Venom. Death Rays got majorly nerfed. He managed to get three Wraiths into CC with the Archon's unit but failed a six-inch charge to reach a Wych squad. His shooting phase destroyed the Archon's empty Venom while the Tomb blades wrecked a Trueborn venom.
In assault the Sslyths finished off the Spyder but had their hands will with three Wraiths and a Scarab arriving. One Wych squad cleared a stack of Warriors in a sweeping advance with still 8 Wyches left while the other won combat again but it continued. The lone Wych from the exploded Venom managed to get behind BLOS cover in my opponent's deployment zone securing linebreaker later in the game. The Wraiths' assault hit the Sslyths as I feared failing a shadowfield roll and getting instant deathed and having the Sslyths run, but after FNP only one died.
Dark Eldar turn three was a massacre as the trio of flyers and Trueborn eliminated the last Necron vehicles (except the flyer which I ignored), killed two wraiths, and three tomb blades as they chose not to jink (man I hate those things). In assault my Wyches accidentally killed the last Wraith in the middle of the map with splinter pistols and had nothing to assault... While another Sslyth died, leaving just the Archon and two Sslyth bodyguards vs three Wraiths who refused to fail their 3++ no matter how many wounds I put on them, and a Scarab.
The rest of the match just saw Necron units not in CC just horribly punished by shooting as they had no answer to the Flyers. The remaining large wych unit picked up S5 and furious charge and rescued the Archon and Sslyths. Hooray for nine S5 shred attacks.
Final score 8-1 Dark Eldar victory, tabling Crons in six turns except for their flyer and a few Warriors in the corner.
Red Corsair wrote: Their AV13 is still a PITA but it looks as though they will be fielding half as many vehicles do to price hikes, and losing tesla from snap firing means we can out range their barges ans survive.
Well, do bear in mind that the Ghost Ark not only got cheaper, but now also puts out twice the firepower at 24".
I don't have an issue with the arks though. They still won't do much to our vehicles, 10 shots on a vehicle at most will only strip 1 HP on average. It was the AB that sucked, especially with arching, which also is no more!
Automatically Appended Next Post: @mercury- how the feth did you strip 4 HP's from a powered down obelisk? It has a 3++ turn 1 you know right?
Good job taking the V but that cron list seemed scattered, he must have been trying out as many new things as he could pack in. Would be interested in a rematch when he gets his army sorted.
He probably should have DS his C'tan although DE are a massive hard counter to that guy.
Good job taking the V but that cron list seemed scattered, he must have been trying out as many new things as he could pack in. Would be interested in a rematch when he gets his army sorted.
He probably should have DS his C'tan although DE are a massive hard counter to that guy.
One of the dark lances exploded him for 3 HP and a glance got through.
Good job taking the V but that cron list seemed scattered, he must have been trying out as many new things as he could pack in. Would be interested in a rematch when he gets his army sorted.
He probably should have DS his C'tan although DE are a massive hard counter to that guy.
One of the dark lances exploded him for 3 HP and a glance got through.
His C'tan didn't stand a chance.
See that's why you always roll the dice despite what mathhammer tells you. Must have been hard not cracking a grin after that money shot. Obelisk is solid but I don't think it's a massive problem for us. I run a 5 man firedragon squad in a venom to answer the call of LOW's, with battle focus they can even avoid the IK ion shield every time, such a money unit, them and a pair of haywire scourge squads should make very short work of that thing.
Sasori wrote: I just had the exact opposite experience with my Obelisk in a Dark Eldar match. The thing ran roughshod over his entire army.
What firing arcs did you use for your obelisk? What would you say was the biggest contributing factor from it?
I went with the conservative hullmounting ruling for the moment.
I'd say the biggest issue was that I got the Alpha Strike on him. He had a fair amount of lances in his army, and I knew if I could cripple them, he would have nothing to really deal with it, and I did that. After that it was just a shooting gallery.
When you have as many vehicles as he did, it's going to be difficult for me to NOT get several targets. He could have castled, but that would have come with it's own issues.
I think it's going to be hard to deal with. Either it's going to be powered down, or it's going to get the guaranteed turn 2 deepstrke through the Decurion.. Either way, it's going to pretty much get the alpha-strike on you.
It takes a lot of lance shots to really deal with it, unless you get lucky with an explodes result and D3 roll like Mercury did. Even if it was able to be killed by turn 3 or so, the damage was already done.
Red Corsair wrote: Obelisk is solid but I don't think it's a massive problem for us. I run a 5 man firedragon squad in a venom to answer the call of LOW's
Well, that's a bit disingenuous since anyone playing pure DE doesn't have that option.
This is a complete aside, Red Corsair, but I keep meaning to ask you - what's your avatar from?
Sasori wrote: I just had the exact opposite experience with my Obelisk in a Dark Eldar match. The thing ran roughshod over his entire army.
If he lacked the tools and spread out to avoid your wraiths I can see that as being a nightmare lol.
He was spread out, if he had been castled, he could have avoided a lot of firepower, but it would have put nearly every vehicle in gravity pulse range as well, in addition to having it's own issues.
it felt like he had a lot of lances, but every lance lost really hurt him.
At first glance I was thinking the Obelisk was going to be crazy good for its points. And to be sure, it's good for its points.
There's just so much drop melta, haywire, lance, grav, and Knights in the game right now though, that I'm thinking they'll be blown up pretty regularly.
Red Corsair wrote: Obelisk is solid but I don't think it's a massive problem for us. I run a 5 man firedragon squad in a venom to answer the call of LOW's
Well, that's a bit disingenuous since anyone playing pure DE doesn't have that option.
This is a complete aside, Red Corsair, but I keep meaning to ask you - what's your avatar from?
Well That's true, but honestly deepstriking heatlances or haywaire blasters will kill it in short order, heatlance/haywire scourge are only 120pts so we get two units at 60 points less. Even blaster born have solid odds. Remember it's too big and on a flight stand to get cover and it can't jink, so yes you need multiple pens/glances but 6 HP in the open shouldn't be a major issue. Also remember we CAN afford to castle since we can redeploy so easily, meaning it will only get a single target turn one if done well and it's still only bs4 with 5 shots that don't ignore cover, though lucky tesla is a thing, an obscured raider/ravager has solid odds with night shields. Just sacrifice a raider or two turn 1 to give your ravagers cover. Deep strike your blasters. He won't stay powered down forever. It definitely should be killed sooner then later though I'd wait until he powers up.
My avatar is Captain Picard from a star trek episode where he goes back to the 40's and fights the borge lol. Some genius spliced chunk from the movie goonies and made a gif that I clearly get a kick from
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mercury14 wrote: At first glance I was thinking the Obelisk was going to be crazy good for its points. And to be sure, it's good for its points.
There's just so much drop melta, haywire, lance, grav, and Knights in the game right now though, that I'm thinking they'll be blown up pretty regularly.
Their actually cost very appropriately IMO. Nothing broken just a solid unit they have. Fortunately it's just av 12 to us. If you could kill two AB's then you should be able to handle this thing.
Well That's true, but honestly deepstriking heatlances or haywaire blasters will kill it in short order, heatlance/haywire scourge are only 120pts so we get two units at 60 points less. Even blaster born have solid odds. Remember it's too big and on a flight stand to get cover and it can't jink, so yes you need multiple pens/glances but 6 HP in the open shouldn't be a major issue. Also remember we CAN afford to castle since we can redeploy so easily, meaning it will only get a single target turn one if done well and it's still only bs4 with 5 shots that don't ignore cover, though lucky tesla is a thing, an obscured raider/ravager has solid odds with night shields. Just sacrifice a raider or two turn 1 to give your ravagers cover. Deep strike your blasters. He won't stay powered down forever. It definitely should be killed sooner then later though I'd wait until he powers up.
My avatar is Captain Picard from a star trek episode where he goes back to the 40's and fights the borge lol. Some genius spliced chunk from the movie goonies and made a gif that I clearly get a kick from
Hah, that's awsome. There's something strangely amusing about seeing Patrick Stewart wielding a Tommy gun.
Red Corsair wrote: Obelisk is solid but I don't think it's a massive problem for us. I run a 5 man firedragon squad in a venom to answer the call of LOW's
Well, that's a bit disingenuous since anyone playing pure DE doesn't have that option.
This is a complete aside, Red Corsair, but I keep meaning to ask you - what's your avatar from?
Well That's true, but honestly deepstriking heatlances or haywaire blasters will kill it in short order, heatlance/haywire scourge are only 120pts so we get two units at 60 points less. Even blaster born have solid odds. Remember it's too big and on a flight stand to get cover and it can't jink, so yes you need multiple pens/glances but 6 HP in the open shouldn't be a major issue. Also remember we CAN afford to castle since we can redeploy so easily, meaning it will only get a single target turn one if done well and it's still only bs4 with 5 shots that don't ignore cover, though lucky tesla is a thing, an obscured raider/ravager has solid odds with night shields. Just sacrifice a raider or two turn 1 to give your ravagers cover. Deep strike your blasters. He won't stay powered down forever. It definitely should be killed sooner then later though I'd wait until he powers up.
My avatar is Captain Picard from a star trek episode where he goes back to the 40's and fights the borge lol. Some genius spliced chunk from the movie goonies and made a gif that I clearly get a kick from
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mercury14 wrote: At first glance I was thinking the Obelisk was going to be crazy good for its points. And to be sure, it's good for its points.
There's just so much drop melta, haywire, lance, grav, and Knights in the game right now though, that I'm thinking they'll be blown up pretty regularly.
Their actually cost very appropriately IMO. Nothing broken just a solid unit they have. Fortunately it's just av 12 to us. If you could kill two AB's then you should be able to handle this thing.
I hate to tell you this but your avatar is not from star trek, its from Indiana jones and the temple of doom, and the chunky kid is chunk from the goonies doing the 'truffle shuffle'
is a still from indiana jones. The lady in the far right is the heroine from the film.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mercury14 wrote: So the splinter cannon upgrade on the Razorwing is salvo 4/6. But it always has to move so does that mean it can never fire 6 times?
btw, Interesting stuff Mush.
I believe vehicles have relentless, so it always counts as stationary when firing
How do we fair for AA? Are razorwings enough? Anyone thought of running an imperial strongpoint[Bastion with Comms, 2 ADL with Quad Guns)? Basically a beta strike list- Comms to bring in scourges and such turn 2?
Sinful Hero wrote: How do we fair for AA? Are razorwings enough? Anyone thought of running an imperial strongpoint[Bastion with Comms, 2 ADL with Quad Guns)? Basically a beta strike list- Comms to bring in scourges and such turn 2?
DE flyers are decent AA, however they're really mostly ground pounders. If you have to use them as AA you can't fire the missiles.
Generally the way I handle enemy flyers is by ignoring them and running MSU lists to minimize their potential.
mercury14 wrote: ....my Wyches accidentally killed the last Wraith in the middle of the map with splinter pistols and had nothing to assault...
I can just imagine:
WYCH (shooting last Wraith): Ha! Got him!
HEKATRIX (slapping her): Foolish girl! Whom shall we melee, now?
WYCH: I'm sorry, mistress. Punish me!
HEKATRIX: My heart's not in it, child. I can hardly reach climax fighting these robotic zombies -- it's like torturing a toaster.
[The assembled legions of Commorragh nod sadly to one another before going home to mistreat kittens]
mercury14 wrote: ....my Wyches accidentally killed the last Wraith in the middle of the map with splinter pistols and had nothing to assault...
I can just imagine:
WYCH (shooting last Wraith): Ha! Got him!
HEKATRIX (slapping her): Foolish girl! Whom shall we melee, now?
WYCH: I'm sorry, mistress. Punish me!
HEKATRIX: My heart's not in it, child. I can hardly reach climax fighting these robotic zombies -- it's like torturing a toaster.
[The assembled legions of Commorragh nod sadly to one another before going home to mistreat kittens]
the haywire cannon is rumored to be a blast weapon with haywire.
the glaive is +1s ap 2 first round of assault, S ap 3 second round and on
the bolas are 1 use only and do a blast with AP2 cant recall strength from rumors.
As they are jetbikes, not vehicles, an IC can join them.
Therefore they can benefit from an archon/succ/haem with a WWP.
An archon with blaster, or blast pistol/huskblade Shadow field, WWP with 6 of them (you can take units of 6) could make a very nasty, but expensive unit. They appear, they can pretty much blast any vehicle into the ground, Archon can tank wounds from return fire with shadowfield, and next round they can fire and assault things with good mobility to reach anything that tried to run.
Unit would cost 400 points base for archon with wwp, and 6 skyweavers without upgrades, guessing proposed unit above would cost approximately 600.
For 120 couldn't you just take Haywire Scourges? Most of the time, those blasts will still only be hitting one vehicle anyway, and even if you could take all 6 with the Haywire Blast you can take five haywire scourge squads for the same price(which is 20 Haywire shots).
But why not just use haywire scourge which are WAY cheaper? Even a unit of firedragons does it better for less. The blast on the haywire canon to me is just odd, the blast doesn't really make it any better against vehicles and it cost more, it also can't be snap fired now which sucks.
I think they may have a use for assaulting elite units and dealing with horde, but really thats what we already do best.
I think they look awesome and I will try using them, but I can't see them adding any role tactically that we don't already do better for cheaper now.
I really want to see the relics of the black library and the characters first, it could make a world of difference, especially if a character can grab a bike as well (doubtful).
I agree haywire scourges point for point are significantly better if you want an unit that deep strikes and shootings AV.
The idea behind the jetbikes is the turn after the DS, they can threaten another vehicle, they have assault potential, hit and run to get out of assault if they are assaulted, decent save and jink. I am not even sold on this idea and would have to use them some times before I even think its worthwhile, and chances are its not. But when compared to people thinking of doing things like d-scythe wraithguard these look a lot better for close to the same fire power but a lot more defense and movement + assault.
Honestly a large reaver mob could probably achieve the same thing for less cost too though.
The haywire cannon can be bought for each model for +5pts.
I also really want to see the relics of the black library
Here's a question, guys - what do you use a standard (i.e. non-coven) haemonculus for. I can certainly see the appeal of coven Haemonculi - what with Fearless turn 1, IWND on turn 3, Zealot on turn 4 etc.
However, as I'm messing around with coven-less lists, I'm wracking (ha!) my brain to try and work out why you'd use a standard Haemonculus.
I guess the main point is that his bonus doesn't seem nearly as useful. On Coven units, he does nothing for a full 2 turns and, in many cases, nothing for the third either.
On most other units, 6+ FNP on turn 1 is rarely anything to shout about. 5+ FNP on turn 2 is a little better, but on the other hand you're generally trying to avoid damage rather than tanking it. By turn 3, you'd have the main bonus anyway and FC is worthless on a lot of units. Hell, Fearless is arguably a detrimental ability for our warriors.
I guess he might be useful on Incubi, though he does slow them down in the process (and many people would perhaps prefer a more killy character).
In essence, with pfp becoming a certainty (and rarely spectacular), I'm questioning the usefulness of getting the benefits a turn early.
So, what am I missing? What do you use a standard Haemonculus for?
in non coven lists Haem do not add much to shooty lists. Most shooty lists are MSU so the bonus to getting FnP earlier is not that great for the cost.
I guess if you knew you were fighting orks/guard blob you could take one with liquifer and wwp with trueborn shredders to get a lot of anti infantry going, but not worth it considering dark eldar already have anti infantry covered elsewhere.
For wyches its not bad of an HQ option, as you get PfP earlier and the standard PfP table does benefit wyches a lot, they also can take a scissorhand for relatively cheap with adds another way to get some ignores armor attacks (rending and all).
Sinful Hero wrote:For 120 couldn't you just take Haywire Scourges? Most of the time, those blasts will still only be hitting one vehicle anyway, and even if you could take all 6 with the Haywire Blast you can take five haywire scourge squads for the same price(which is 20 Haywire shots).
HAHA! im glad all you guys clocked this...
I was like... haywire....blast?? what vehicles are close enough that a blast is useful?
Shame GW don't seem to spend more than the time it took to come up with the idea to decide whether its even worth it IMO, I doubt they are blast, I reckon they are like all other cannons in DE/CWE.... multiple shots I reckon its a 2 shot haywire cannon.
vipoid wrote: Here's a question, guys - what do you use a standard (i.e. non-coven) haemonculus for. I can certainly see the appeal of coven Haemonculi - what with Fearless turn 1, IWND on turn 3, Zealot on turn 4 etc.
However, as I'm messing around with coven-less lists, I'm wracking (ha!) my brain to try and work out why you'd use a standard Haemonculus.
I guess the main point is that his bonus doesn't seem nearly as useful. On Coven units, he does nothing for a full 2 turns and, in many cases, nothing for the third either.
On most other units, 6+ FNP on turn 1 is rarely anything to shout about. 5+ FNP on turn 2 is a little better, but on the other hand you're generally trying to avoid damage rather than tanking it. By turn 3, you'd have the main bonus anyway and FC is worthless on a lot of units. Hell, Fearless is arguably a detrimental ability for our warriors.
I guess he might be useful on Incubi, though he does slow them down in the process (and many people would perhaps prefer a more killy character).
In essence, with pfp becoming a certainty (and rarely spectacular), I'm questioning the usefulness of getting the benefits a turn early.
So, what am I missing? What do you use a standard Haemonculus for?
I take a regular haemy with my unit of grotesques.
Gives a great leadership value and gives them str 6 furious charge by turn 3 which ends up being huge.
Small blasts do have a use against vehicles. Against targets like imperial knights a BS 4 small blast has better than an 80% chance to hit. That is a sight better than BS4 would offer. Against some of the bigger super heavies and tanks you almost cannot miss. Admittedly I would have preferred a multiple shot weapon but oh well.
Not that haywire is particularity useful for a DE ally. Scourges are already extremely good.
Hey guys, new to Dark Eldar, quick question: Is it ever worth it to spend the points to put a heavy weapon in a unit of blasterborn? Sorry if this is has already been asked.
Hollismason wrote: Not really the reason people like the Trueborn is the mass amounts of Special Weapons specifically Blasters that they can take.
I guess yeah, you can but I don't see a benefit.
I used to always run a unit of 3 with two splinter canons in a venom. You can still do it now but the min number is 5 rather then 3 and canons went from 10 points to 15. They did drop 1 point though for the guy but whoopy.
So before it was 121 for 3 with 2 canons in a dual canon venom
Now it is 160 for 5 with 2 canons in a dual canon venom.
Its mostly worthless now since you can simply take 2 venoms for cheaper and we can get them empty now or from the archon. I also don't think it's worth making your infantry more expensive and losing obsec.
Sinful Hero wrote: @mushkilla
Do you think you could make a post and edit in a link to all your guides so blaktoof might edit them into the first post? (Hint hint)
I'm 1-0 against the new Necron codex... But wow are they stomping through my meta with a lot of easy victories. Anyone else play them with their DE yet?
mercury14 wrote: I'm 1-0 against the new Necron codex... But wow are they stomping through my meta with a lot of easy victories. Anyone else play them with their DE yet?
I’ve had one game against Necrons and lost. We played a game from the UKGT mission pack (EW is primary, Maelstrom secondary, Warlord/First Strike/Linebreaker tertiary). It was against Wraiths, three Sentry Pylons with Zandrehk giving a Relentless bubble and a CCB. My list isn’t as competitive and it was really tough going. We weren’t 100% sure of the Pylon rules but it seems you can’t jink them so that’s two autopens on a Raider at AP1. I also had a terrible first round of shooting so all of the Wraiths and CCB were able to charge on turn 2. Luckily they were a bit bunched after combat and my Razorwing took a load out with its Shatterfield missiles. In the end I was able to salvage a draw in the primary with objective grabbing bikes but lost overall.
New RP definitely helped as his CCB in particular was able to bounce quite a few wounds with it. He took all my anti-armour shots on the Overlord and between his 4++, RP and IWND it was harder to kill than before when a Phase Shifter was 3++.
Something worth remembering (and something necron players seem to "forget about") is that you subtract one from the reanimation protocol roll if the weapon that inflicted the wound had the instant death special rule (Any Wound allocated to a model has the Instant Death special rule if the Strength value of that attack is at least double the Toughness value of that model).
We have access to a lot of S8 weapons and weapons that cause instant death on a 6 (flesh gauntlets and such). I have been courteously reminding necrons players of this rule in my games (as they seem to be unaware it exists).
I've had one game against the new Necron. I put 60ish ap5 wounds and 5 ap2 wounds into a royal court with lychguard in one phase and I only caused 2 wounds. He didn't even deem it worthwhile to use the res orb and saved it for another turn.
I did win, but mostly by tactical mistakes made by my opponent. Next time I plan on completely ignoring the court and hoping things will go better though.
I appreciate it!
No animosity, but I just can't see my way to agreeing with you here.
