Agamemnon2 wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Yes. They look fine. Boobs are possibly slightly too large making the rest of the torso look small, but even that's not bothering me. These soldiers look tough and solid. I have no use for skinny pin-head barbies.

Ok you want disproportionate heroic troops, sorry we have nothing to discuss on that point, I am sorry I thought you wanted realistic proportionate troops.

Could you be any more condescending?

I tried to, I thought he had issues with the 1/3/3 which is the average proportions in drawing and wanted a 1/3/4, I defended 1/3/3 because it is the average and 1/3/4 is more of a "supermodel" proportions in drawing, but did a mockup in 1/3/4 to make some bridge for discussion, once I finally understood he championed 1/2/3 which is heroic proportions, I do not think I can viably continue discussion, I want more realistic proportions he wants heroic, two incompatible ideas with no real middle ground.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

It is not 1/2/3 if you are using the helmet as the measuring stick. It's more like 1(plus helmet)/2.4/3.6, assuming the helmet adds 1/5 of a head height to the head, which is reasonable to account for hair and padding/armor. 1/3/3 looks odd because it makes the legs look too small for the upper body. That's more of a Mantic thing than a Raging Heroes thing.

Thank you. That's not a head, it's a helmet. The premise of these arguments has been flawed for several pages.

Spoiler:

Note head size vs helmet size:

I think it is still 1/2/3 without helmet

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

I tried to, I thought he had issues with the 1/3/3 which is the average proportions in drawing a...

I had issue with you saying thins, because it is painfully wrong. It is funny how people who demand realistic proportions have no clue what realistic proportions are.

 Crimson wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

I tried to, I thought he had issues with the 1/3/3 which is the average proportions in drawing a...

I had issue with you saying thins, because it is painfully wrong. It is funny how people who demand realistic proportions have no clue what realistic proportions are.

I know what it isn't and 1/2/3 is not it, if you look at their artwork its 1/3/4 which according to drawing proportions is the idealized proportions.

In any case even if I champion the more "proper" 1/3/3,5 (7,5 heads) or the idealized 1/3/4 (8 heads) proportions, you understand the departure from 1/2/3 is even greater.

For reference CB sculpts which are ideal in my opinion are 1/3/3,5

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

I know what it isn't and 1/2/3 is not it, if you look at their artwork its 1/3/4 which according to drawing proportions is the idealized proportions.

In any case even if I champion the more "proper" 1/3/3,5 (7,5 heads) or the idealized 1/3/4 (8 heads) proportions, you understand the departure from 1/2/3 is even greater.

It is not greater, as both of those retain proper torso/leg ratio which is important. Why 1/2/3 (They're more like 1/2.2/2.8, really) looks Ok to me because the torso/leg ratio is about correct 'heroic' scale doesn't really affect that, it affects head and hand size and general stockiness of the models.

So, as long as the legs are 50% of the body, you do not care of proportions?

Sorry I do care

I do care. I just necessarily don't care for realistic proportions, merely that they're stylised so so that they look good. Short legs make things look like Flintstones.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think it is still 1/2/3 without helmet

Interesting choice of head-height (including big hair and most of the neck...). But at least it supports your claim

Edit: Looking at the original rendering, i would leave it as is (or maybe reduce the bust size slightly).

 Breotan wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I'd rather these scaled in with dreamforges plastic offerings rather than GWs.

I actually agree with this. I have a few figures from companies other than GW and I'm perfectally fine with my RH girls being useful in some game other than just 40k.

That might be nice, but ignoring the whole "40K Counts As" demographic would not be a wise move.

Someone already brought up the whole "Dystopian Debacle" earlier in the thread - if these models end up scaling badly with 40K (and RH have assured us, more or less, that they won't!), this won't end well.

Like Insaniak said, If the TGG are taller than Space Marines...

... then they cease having a use.

They would still have a use for me, though as I have said I am scale flexible. The "40k" demographic is definately a large market to target however producing ugly models would be worse than size issues imho. I think the best compromise was the more slender small chested version at a 40k compatible scale.

They are slender enough for heavily armoured shock troopers. I like how they look solid and tough an would make perfect Stormtroopers.

 Alpharius wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I'd rather these scaled in with dreamforges plastic offerings rather than GWs.

I actually agree with this. I have a few figures from companies other than GW and I'm perfectally fine with my RH girls being useful in some game other than just 40k.

That might be nice, but ignoring the whole "40K Counts As" demographic would not be a wise move.

Someone already brought up the whole "Dystopian Debacle" earlier in the thread - if these models end up scaling badly with 40K (and RH have assured us, more or less, that they won't!), this won't end well.

Like Insaniak said, If the TGG are taller than Space Marines...

Height has nothing to do with proportions.

If the TGG are taller then space marines, then they're out of proportion to RH's own established model line, the original Kruganova sisters for example.

Loud'n Raging wrote:
Upcoming Stretch Goals:

$400,000: Unlock of the Iron Empire Motor Bike #1.
See how gamers are planning to use it...

$405,000: Freebie: Raven, the Jailbirds Freedom Fighter



The Freedom Fighter of the Jailbirds could only be their leader, as all their lives are about getting free from the Kurganova's clutches.

So, meet Raven the Chain Breaker, supreme leader of the Jailbirds. Even more than a prisoner, Raven used to be a gladiator slave who fought for a powerful family of the Kurganova realm. Through her prowess in the arena and her cunning intelligence, she became some sort of star among the Kurganova society. But all this was part of her careful plans to achieve freedom for her and her cohorts.

The 'Raven Uprising', as it was later called, was the first episode of massive jailbreaks on the Kurganova prison planet.

Raven was then able to unite the fleeing Jailbirds and to raid enough Kurganova military supplies to form a small but strong army that have vowed to keep on harassing the Kurganova forces until their prisons are empty.

$410,000: Unlock of Tarja, Yaga Soul Weaver

Tarja is the second Yaga Soul Weaver that we are unveiling though this Kickstarter. The Yaga Soul Weaver channel the forces of ancient spirits through their cyber-enhanced shamanism.

On the battlefield the Yaga Soul Weavers generally work as a team, each of them serving as a relay and an amplifier of the shamanic forces.

$415,000 Free Upgrade for the boxes of Heavy Troopers (details forthcoming)
Like what you see?

Then please help us grow this Kickstarter: just share the images along with the link to this kickstarter: http://kck.st/18RPJfh

I like the look of Raven, other than her face. Not a massive fan of her expression in the concept art. Though it'll probably be a bit better in the actual sculpt.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Height has nothing to do with proportions.

In a way it does. In a small model with realistic proportions many details become too small to paint or even see. This is why most more realistically proportioned models are 32-35mm instead of 28mm.




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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If the TGG are taller then space marines, then they're out of proportion to RH's own established model line, the original Kruganova sisters for example.

Kurganova sisters are crazy tall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Raven looks rad.

Oh I am positive they can do it.

I like Raven's jacket, but not all the other gak hanging off her. A cleaner silhouette would look better, in my opinion.

 AlexHolker wrote:
I like Raven's jacket, but not all the other gak hanging off her. A cleaner silhouette would look better, in my opinion.

I had the same reaction. I was expecting something more in line with that 'over-the-top-90's-punk-culture' look that we've come to expect from the Jailbirds, and Raven looks a little more like the Kurganovas to me. The more I look at her, though, the more I like her. Especially in the context of the game system they're working on, she provides a good 'missing link' showing the connection between the two armies. In addition, her big spiky knee pads and other decorative accoutrements (sp? Opera says no but Google says yes) kind of fit the theme. She doesn't match the line troopers, but I think she totally fits in as a 'boss' of the group. In one of the films that this sort of look is prevalent in (the gangs from any of the 90's Batman films, dystopian science fiction movies like Tank Girl) she would fit in with the punk-girl gang as the towering monstrosity that jumps out to menace the hero as the obvious 'boss encounter.'

She definitely isn't what I was expecting. But I think with a good paint job (and possibly some conversion, because I love adding more decoration to my commanders!) she could really shine as a leader of the Jailbirds.

Raven looks great.

These freebie freedom fighters are among the coolest characters of all. I'd gladly add another $10 for those if they weren't added for free already. :p

Raven looks like a beast. I love her, maybe a little too much stuff dangling off her boots but she is definitely in the top 3 models I am most excited about so far.

Talk about HBIC- Raven is not someone that I'd like to mess with. I think she looks great. Tough, intimidating, even regal in a crazy sort of way. Perfect for the leader/founder of the Jailbirds. Plus, "chainbreaker" is one of the best epithets I've heard in a while.

 Guildsman wrote:
Talk about HBIC- Raven is not someone that I'd like to mess with. I think she looks great. Tough, intimidating, even regal in a crazy sort of way. Perfect for the leader/founder of the Jailbirds. Plus, "chainbreaker" is one of the best epithets I've heard in a while.

I'll second that. I like the chains on her, too. Good decorative choice.

I would just to like to say I signed up to the Kickstarter due to the picture released, however if they alter this ( proportion wise ) I would feel they altered their design to what they were offering which is wrong.

I think the Proposed 28mm was fine IMHO and as this is what they were aiming at then why change it ?

If you want differently proportioned miniatures sign up to another kickstarter or start your own.

 lone dirty dog wrote:
I would just to like to say I signed up to the Kickstarter due to the picture released, however if they alter this ( proportion wise ) I would feel they altered their design to what they were offering which is wrong.

I think the Proposed 28mm was fine IMHO and as this is what they were aiming at then why change it ?

If you want differently proportioned miniatures sign up to another kickstarter or start your own.

You do realize the big first and second day spike comes from those that expected models in alignment with their previous correctly proportioned scaled models, not GW proportioned heroic models.

Not to mention that they said that their models would match the concept art.

I bought in expecting the models to match proportionately, in addition to any other features.

I just want good looking miniatures, no matter what other game universe they can proxy to.

I'm with grefven in this one.

And heroic scale miniatures are not good looking miniatures.

 Fafnir wrote:
And heroic scale miniatures are not good looking miniatures.

In your opinion. I disagree. They look better on tabletop.

Can someone provide me a clear definition on the term 'heroic scale?' I did a number of searches for it, but all I can find is a single website that lists 'heroic scale' as synonymous with '25mm scale.' While I can discern most terms like this from context, it seems like most people use 'heroic scale' as code for 'Games Workshop produced minis.'

We did two days of round-n-round over this already, guys. LnR said he was going to take everyone's opinion into consideration, and I for one think that the Raging Heroes team has done a dynamite job of taking and acting on community feedback, so I'm going to continue to give them the benefit of the doubt on this and other issues. They're working on something in regards to this issue even now, so let's wait and see what they come back to us with before we break out our torches and pitchforks again.

Edit: $400,000 crossed, and the first bike unlocked!

Heroic scale means the different models parts are disproportionate and at other scales with each other, so the head, arms and legs are bigger than the body to emphasize the detail on these parts, the weapons are even bigger, essentially if you want to see a pure example of heroic scale, just look at GW models.

At start heroic scaling in the then 25mm was done because the industry was young the sculptors new and the lead used to cast the miniatures too soft to make so thin model parts, this carried on until the recent times, at the moment most new miniature companies and individual sculptors move towards truer to proportion scale, this is aided by increased resilience in casting materials, better moulding technology and increased talent from the sculptors.

Heroic scale is so closely identified with GW because they use it, and they're the industry leader. Any company producing counts-as figures for their games has to follow it to mesh properly (Mantic, etc.).

Aesthetically, it means a specific distortion of the human form: oversized head, hands, feet, and weapons. When GW got started back in the 80s, casting technology dictated this sort of style. Nowadays, it's not necessary. GW products are the best examples, especially things like Catachans. Infinity is a great example of the opposite approach, which is usually termed "realistic scale."

Earlier in the thread, someone posted a picture of a Cadian next to a an actual soldier. That is a good example of how heroic scale is different. Heroic scale is not restricted to a particular height, however (25mm, 28mm, etc.).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Earlier in the thread, someone posted a picture of a Cadian next to a an actual soldier. That is a good example of how heroic scale is different. Heroic scale is not restricted to a particular height, however (25mm, 28mm, etc.).

Any idea what page? (Or even a rough idea?) I'd be interested to see that picture, because all the arguments for changing the sculpt thus far have been thoroughly unconvincing. People seem really sure of their point of view, though, so I'm still willing to listen.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Earlier in the thread, someone posted a picture of a Cadian next to a an actual soldier. That is a good example of how heroic scale is different. Heroic scale is not restricted to a particular height, however (25mm, 28mm, etc.).

Any idea what page? (Or even a rough idea?) I'd be interested to see that picture, because all the arguments for changing the sculpt thus far have been thoroughly unconvincing. People seem really sure of their point of view, though, so I'm still willing to listen.

http://wfarcadia.blogspot.se/2012/01/matter-of-scalepart-1.html

I am guessing they refer to this image

And there are different degrees of 'heroic scale' Cadians are more distorted than FW guard. I think Cadians look a bit weird, but FW stuff is perfect, and I've never heard anyone complain about their proportions (before this thread anyway), although they are far from realistic.

Some people seem to think that more realistic -> better, but I really do not agree with that, not when it comes to miniatures, game graphics or just art styles in general. And with miniatures you have to take the account the distance you view them too. Realistic might look nice from up close, but on actual gaming table I think somewhat 'heroic' proportions work better.

michelangelo's david is pretty much Hero scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_%28Michelangelo%29

And I dont think anyone can bash it

 Crimson wrote:
And there are different degrees of 'heroic scale' Cadians are more distorted than FW guard. I think Cadians look a bit weird, but FW stuff is perfect, and I've never heard anyone complain about their proportions (before this thread anyway), although they are far from realistic.

Some people seem to think that more realistic -> better, but I really do not agree with that, not when it comes to miniatures, game graphics or just art styles in general. And with miniatures you have to take the account the distance you view them too. Realistic might look nice from up close, but on actual gaming table I think somewhat 'heroic' proportions work better.

I understand the need for models to look good from a tabletop distance, but from three feet away, you could cut out half the detail on the models and never know the difference. Exaggeration of features is necessary for this scale, to an extent, but when weapons are as big as the model, feet, heads, and hands are huge, and proportions are skewed to accomplish these features, then that's the "heroic scale" we are talking about (really its more a style, than scale).

I'm confident Raging Heroes will come up with a working solution that will please a good majority of people.

~iPaint

 Darkness wrote:
michelangelo's david is pretty much Hero scale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_%28Michelangelo%29

And I dont think anyone can bash it

Funny story, the David was supposed to be put on top of a building. The proportions are distorted because it was intended to be viewed from far below it. The local government loved it so much, though, that they kept it on the ground.

 -iPaint- wrote:


I'm confident Raging Heroes will come up with a working solution that will please a good majority of people.

~iPaint

Me too - I just don't want them to be too tall is all!

Yeah, my female commissars, Kurganova sisters do stand above a SM captain, the legs are sooo,,,,,,,leggy! and they are on 6inch heels or so on top of those legs! A fluff based hero of the state has to look up to his commissar literally, not just figuratively as she is a head taller than the IG who also stand as tall as the SM minis which is hilarious enough as is.

Call me a weirdo but from all that I have seen on this KS the thing that interested me the most was the Baby hippo!

 Crimson wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
And heroic scale miniatures are not good looking miniatures.

In your opinion. I disagree. They look better on tabletop.

Yes I agreeI like the slightly out of scale comical look myself, I do understand all you others as to wanting more realistic look and contrast to there earlier released miniatures ,but when I saw the 3d render that's when I joined as I thought this was the way the final miniature was going to look.

With kickstarters you take a slight chance anyway, but as I joined at the later day after seeing the render of the final look (minus a few details) I assumed this was it.

I do have some of there earlier females which look great don't get me wrong, but they don't match up to the majority of my other miniatures which is why I was hesitant of joining the kickstarter.
Then I saw the render and thought great these will blend in well, now I am panicking if they revert back to there original style.

I can understand if the early joiners were pissed of as they were expecting there normal format and then found out they were changing it, but if this was there intention to change the style from the start that is just bad luck for expecting things to stay the same because of earlier work.

However I think it is a bit off to show the style you intend then only to change it, this was the reason I joined now and not earlier.

I hope they are going to decide soon if they are going to change the style to a slimmer taller mini, as i will want to with draw from the kickstarter as these minis will be of no use for my needs.

So does any one know when this will be decided ?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Heroic scale means the different models parts are disproportionate and at other scales with each other, so the head, arms and legs are bigger than the body to emphasize the detail on these parts, the weapons are even bigger, essentially if you want to see a pure example of heroic scale, just look at GW models.

GW minis have small legs, not large legs. Compare the length of a Cadian's arm to his leg. Now compare your arm to your leg.


If you think heroic scale means larger legs, that might explain some of the proportion issues being argued in this thread...

large as in fatter not taller.

You know, even GW can't keep it's models scaled properly together. Just looking at a few random models sitting around my desk. Vargard Obyron is a full head taller than a Grey Knight, which is the same size as a DV Chaos Chosen, which is a head taller than a AoBR Ork, which is the same height as an Eversor Assassin, which is shorter than a Cadian.

I think the issue is we're all too used to The GW Way™, where they just make models in whatever size they please to make it look cool, rather than following any real scale.

You see I don't get this whole GW reference, ok they are the original concept of heroic scale but of late most of my minis are made from 3rd party companies.

To be fair most were designed to work alongside the GW ranges initially,but most companies are producing almost complete miniatures.

Due to this most of my minis revolve around these companies, I can't even remember the last GW pat I used of late.
So to say it is solely to tie in with GW is incorrect, I just want to be able to tie my miniatures together without looking out of place.

The Kurganova heavy trooper renderings are really growing on me. I hope they won't change too much.

So... who's got paint schemes planned out eh?

Keep in mind that plans are to make the characters slightly larger than the troopers to make them visually stand out, as seen with Kurnigovas.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:So... who's got paint schemes planned out eh?

Oooh! Me! Me! Valhallans! That way I can use the Kurganovas and the Jailbirds together. (I'll just do the Jailbirds on desert bases! ) I'm actually really excited to come up with some kind of unifying scheme for them.

Kroothawk wrote:Keep in mind that plans are to make the characters slightly larger than the troopers to make them visually stand out, as seen with Kurnigovas.

Really? I'd heard that bandied about on forums and such, but hadn't seen that officially yet. Do you remember where you saw it at? I kind of thought that the Kurganovas were only taller because of their costuming (the ones already in production are, in body, the same size as normal guardsmen, roughly, and it's only their heels and their hats that make them taller).

I'm not sure 'larger' is the best way to put it (based on the Kurganovas and all their other character models). Their characters often are slightly 'taller' due to heels, and appear more substantial due to accessories (capes, long hair with barbs, robes, trenchcoats, etc.). Referring to the characters as 'larger' makes them sound thicker/big boned

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So... who's got paint schemes planned out eh?

Going with Jailbirds and my plan is for CSM cultists. Which is the start of a new army for me. I do not have IG either so I may decide to go renegade guard instead but either way these girls are going to be under the influence

Of alcohol, dark gods and all the hard drugs they can find!


Holy crap! You need to find a Doomrider model for them! XD

Chaos cultists would be a pretty sweet option!

In the interests of full disclosure, I feel I should also mention that several of these ladies will be doing double duty in my Necromunda gang. Especially the Lulus if it turns out that they are indeed children.

My Jailbirds will probably end up in a standard catachan/Vietnam color scheme. But each at a character level standard.

I'll need to practice on flesh tones....I hate flesh tones.

I probably may do desert tones, or mountainous desert. Or, if I decide to play em for Deadzone, since that will come to me first... I may just paint them black and whiteand some other little colors, to make them have that old timey jail bird theme.

I'm convinced the lulu's will be ratlings personally.

Geez, I'm out then I'm in, currently in for the Raven miniature, I think as long as they keep that one true to the concept art (especially the face) I'm in to the end.

 keltikhoa wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
So... who's got paint schemes planned out eh?

Going with Jailbirds and my plan is for CSM cultists. Which is the start of a new army for me. I do not have IG either so I may decide to go renegade guard instead but either way these girls are going to be under the influence

That's pretty much what I was going to do. Grab some to use as cultists / renegade IG depending on size of the game and what not. Probably going to end up with deserty colours to match the few Talllarns I've picked up

man There is alot of debate on scale . I have to say , that I field a lot of different minis in my force from different companies and systems ...tbh, when your playing on the table top ,,no one ever notices the very slight scale difference. occasionally I'll get a ...that mini is not gw and I'll nod and show it to them they say cool and then well continue on . I'd like the RH minis to be more faithful to actual scale like they did with the space elves looking characters and the daemonettes stand ins since tbh...no on is really ever going to notice if there not the exact same height/width/depth as the gw brand. And id like to be able to use these minis for all kinds of stuff, not just 40k


Also i have to second an earlier opinion. GW's scale is all over the place. 10 marines are supposed to fit in a rhino......are you serious?

I got to say I preferred the 28mm suggestion that was made a few pages back.

Minis painted the same will look uniform anyway even if they're scaled differently (as long as they're all 28mm) so I'd prefer they go for more realistic proportions than heroic.

I'm not judging anyone who likes heroic I'm just saying i preref idealized.

It's surprising at first glance, but most people are around 7 heads tall.



(note that the "Heroic" scale used in Loomis' image is different from the Heroic scale used in miniatures)

It's not so much the heroic scale look that is the concern for me, I don't mind if they are more realistically proportioned but I am not a fan of the over slim look.

If they keep a slightly bulky feel to the body size mass then that would be great for me, they don't need to have oversized hands or heads but I don't like the anorexia look.

This way they would blend with most ranges without looking out of place.

 rayphoton wrote:
Also i have to second an earlier opinion. GW's scale is all over the place. 10 marines are supposed to fit in a rhino......are you serious?

Technically 10+ don't forget the rhino crew. So thats what two more?

Actually one crew member, the squad sergeant takes up the other place up front.

Or 12 orks in a trukk. or 20 in a battle wagon

 BrookM wrote:
Actually one crew member, the squad sergeant takes up the other place up front.

Then how does the driver drive and fire the pintle mounted SB with no squad embarked?

 HisDivineShadow wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Actually one crew member, the squad sergeant takes up the other place up front.

Then how does the driver drive and fire the pintle mounted SB with no squad embarked?

The Machine Spirit provides somehow no doubt. Imperial Armour 2 has a nice diagram on who goes where when bussed in a Rhino.

But that's something for the fluff section of the forums maybe.

 keltikhoa wrote:
Or 12 orks in a trukk. or 20 in a battle wagon

I knew someone who had a whole mob of orks with arms positioned 'barrel of monkeys' style so that he could fit all of them in the back of a trukk.

Wasn't the rule for ork battlewagons in 2nd edition that the capacity of said wagon was however many orks you could balance on top of it?

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Wasn't the rule for ork battlewagons in 2nd edition that the capacity of said wagon was however many orks you could balance on top of it?

At one point, yeah, that was the rule. Although I believe if one of your orks fell off, it died.

would it have been modeling for advantage then if you made sides out of full plasticard sheets so you had a bucket o' orks on wheels?

Back then there was no official model. You could make it however you wanted

Moving towards the Raven unlock at a nice, brisk pace!

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Back then there was no official model.

Actually, there was. It just wasn't available for very long, as the mould was supposedly dropped and broken. It was sold in resin under licence by Armorcast for a while, but nobody noticed.


Meanwhile, that topic, hey?

I was kind of surprised to see delays based on Benoit's injury. Does anyone know about how small this company is, anyway? I've expected the possibility of delays from industrial difficulties, but is the company small enough that a personal injury to one person could significantly delay production?

Jim, it's three people. Total.

There's already a delay and the KS isn't even over? Isn't this moving into "GW FAQ" territory?

Hello! We've been quite silent since late yesterday, and that was not entirely due to careful planning. While we intended to spend quite the many hours working on external communications for the KS, Benoit's body decided to take a break: he threw his back so bad he could barely walk, and when he did, he had to be completely bent at the waist... Lucky for us, he saw an excellent chiropractor today who set the articulation back, but the inflammation is still high, so when I say he's now flat on his back, well, ... he is ;-)
So, in a way, it's just as well that the KS is moving more slowly for the moment, we'll be back with a vengeance in no time :-)
Also there's a good chance of our unveiling quite a few stretch goals at once, which will be an opportunity to discover and share new images, instead of staring at the silhouettes. As soon as I can get my man back on Photoshop, we'll make that happen!

I don't think it's that big of a deal, at this point, but I'd hate to have something like that delay production of the minis significantly.

That being said, I'd rather everyone was healthy and safe rather than getting my minis on time. My toys aren't worth someone compounding an injury for.

Ah yes, France. A chiropractor. My mother swears by one. She's only had her back pain come back every month for the past 40 odd years.

We're in great hands, boys.

Dude, that is not cool. Insults against entire nationalities are the kind of joke you tell amongst close friends, in private. A public forum isn't the place where that kind of thing is acceptable.

I believe the insult was towards chiropractors, not French people. Of which I am nominally a part of, as I keep being reminded of often enough.

With a name like Mathieu I'd have figured you clearly had some sort of Hungarian or Indian heritage...

I hope Benoit gets better; losing 33% of your workforce isn't good for any company. Hopefully we're still far enough away from the actual start of production that it won't matter.

What delay? We haven't run out of SGs yet, its not like its come to screeching halt...there was just no update.....

Well, before anyone ninja's me, here's what I've been doing for the last hour while listening to the rain outside.

"But we can say that our personal taste is for proportions more in line to the ones of our Heroines, because we find them more beautiful, and because we think that the entire industry is moving towards “truer”, or at least, more elegant proportions."

Some quick photoshop based on RH's comments from Update #16:



And some lines marking feet (best guess based on boots/high heels) and knees. Blondie is a bit more leggy than the others. The extra length in the photoshopped troopers' torsos make up for the missing height RH was discussing earlier in the KS (I believe their current intentions are to make the Heroine sculpts slightly taller than the R&F troops to draw attention to the characters, though we may or may not see a change later on based on their comment from Update #16).



I think they'll be spot on if they can adjust the scaling and proportions of the rank and files to match up a bit better with their Heroine renders.

Who's got bets for the next batch of stretch goal reveals?

My guess is for some Iron Empire Snipers and Volga Potemkine, the Kurganova's Standard.

~iPaint

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, Raven's been officially unlocked! Yaaaaay!



Awesome stuff!

 -iPaint- wrote:



My guess is for some Iron Empire Snipers and Volga Potemkine, the Kurganova's Standard.

~iPaint

Nope. Can't be a big unit unlock for Iron Empire. It was just Iron Empire (Bikes) and Jail Birds before them (Mechs) so Kruganova Snipers is a possibility (or a bike/mech, gotta be a big unit, I'm hoping snipers meself) and then an IE Hero, followed by a Jail Bird unit, then a JB Hero, and so forth.

Not so much "can't" as "probably won't"

So, here;s a question I haven't seen answered yet.

Why is Blondie wearing Mickey Mouse ears?

Because she was a big fan back in the day?

 Ouze wrote:
So, here;s a question I haven't seen answered yet.

Why is Blondie wearing Mickey Mouse ears?

Because nothing screams 'punk' louder than defaced Disney paraphernalia.

We've still got 32 or so unlocks to go.

Eh, we'll make it!

 -iPaint- wrote:
Well, before anyone ninja's me, here's what I've been doing for the last hour while listening to the rain outside.

"But we can say that our personal taste is for proportions more in line to the ones of our Heroines, because we find them more beautiful, and because we think that the entire industry is moving towards “truer”, or at least, more elegant proportions."

Some quick photoshop based on RH's comments from Update #16:



And some lines marking feet (best guess based on boots/high heels) and knees. Blondie is a bit more leggy than the others. The extra length in the photoshopped troopers' torsos make up for the missing height RH was discussing earlier in the KS (I believe their current intentions are to make the Heroine sculpts slightly taller than the R&F troops to draw attention to the characters, though we may or may not see a change later on based on their comment from Update #16).



I think they'll be spot on if they can adjust the scaling and proportions of the rank and files to match up a bit better with their Heroine renders.

Who's got bets for the next batch of stretch goal reveals?

My guess is for some Iron Empire Snipers and Volga Potemkine, the Kurganova's Standard.

~iPaint

Either of these renders I would be happy with, as long as they don't adjust the body mass.

Well in my opinion is doesn't really matter how much leg, bust or size they really are. Aslong as they're along the lines of 32 mm i'm fine. I find the red box generally to small to do anything with paintwise.

I don't get how this kickstarter after this amount of planning and the loooooooooooooooong hype that preceeded it. (that gave me a feeling of that they didn't really knew what they were doing in the first place) It started of like all almost all kickstarters that i followed and spend money on went viral sorta speak in the 1 day.

the fact that they basically froze the unlocks. To keep things for the rest of the kickstarter to be unlocked and when the spike dozed off they started it back up. Is it me or don't you feel cheated when the planned this at let's say 500k everything unlocked and after they saw how many people were throwing money at it it suddenly went to 1 million. At the moment it's going really as the winds blows with the unlocks as that's what makes this kickstarter succesfull or not at the end. first it was 10-20-5-2.5k it's all over the place. Cause we need motivation??? Also 300k first freebie

Motivation in this kickstarter is not needed. Since like Buzzaw already stated it has zero point in keeping up with the kickstarter. Except seeing what we get for free or extensions along the line.

Also this whole discussion about anatomy coming from them and I don't mean this in a bad way. But other then breastsize i don't see them altering anything due to them already having they're height set in stone with the kurganova triplets. They are not staple or mandatory but wouldn't it look strange to suddenly go for a realistic look when these models actually got people interested in the first place. "Looks it's hulkette standing next to my other Raging heroes minis wich seem to be smaller......." you won't make everyone happy anyway. Saying majority this or that won't work either cause how many people will actually take the time to speak up or out. Yes they should but i think people should know better up untill now. Not to mention this is making me anxious as to when will there be a deffinite verdict on this.

When I look at this kickstarter it seems to me that they bit off to much which they actually can digest.
We have 3 armies with three looks and are almost identical.
If they would come with rules you really don't have much room to go with accept special rules cause statwise they would be largely the same since they well are largely the same. Pending on what is going to be for a game system but this is way way way to much carrot on a stick from them to us to be honest.
So for it me it's going to be used as a stand-in miniatures for GW.
Here is i think the weakness and also the lagging in this kickstarter. I don't think most units of factions can be used wich each other (too much aesthetic differences between them, maybe kurga/jailbirds could pending on what you get or use them for). So if they don't unlock everything I can't even get the particular army or collection what i want. If they don't unlock or are unable to unlock everything i think many people will either drop pledge or downsize it instead of spending more. Simple cause "my faction" would not be big enough for the pledge i'm giving.
Yes you could take other models but again my painting cabinet is full enough as it is. And i don't think people would give money for models they don't need. Especially how these models will be used. It's not for the game raging heroes is making. They don't even have their backgrounds done let alone the rules. And no 10 sentences do not make a background.

then the freebies. I wouldn't think i would ever say this. But why? Why do i get miniatures I don't want, or need or not for the army i am trying to collect. I will be ending up with a lot of stuff for everything. Wich is nice don't get me wrong since it's free but it's again a stupid waste of money and oppertunity for them and for me. I have at the moment only 1 usefull freebie. So now we get to the crux of is this kickstarter worth the money your putting in. Extra troopers in a box? army selected freebies?
Now I do get not everyone is going for the complete army approach here. But this kickstarters seems fixed in a way that to me doesn't make it flexible they say it is flexible but everything around it seems tacked on and not really thought out. Based on the criticism they recieved perhaps.

I don't have to explain how Kingdom Death did it. But damn those unlocks and prices were actually usefull. Now it's more like drop money. come back in 30 ish days to see how much it has brought up and adjust pledge towards what you need. Hoping the freebies you're getting are compatible with what you want.

It's a shame cause i really hoped they would do it well. But it seems to me this is a project gone horribly astray and buckled under it's own ambitions. Not to say it's not succesfull already and I hope it does. But it could've been a lot lot better.

I will continue back to my lurking.

What's the 410k unlock anyway? I understand they want to take it slow on the updates to get more pledgers in, but an update right about now would be grand.

raven2100 wrote:
... if they don't unlock everything I can't even get the particular army or collection what i want. If they don't unlock or are unable to unlock everything i think many people will either drop pledge or downsize it instead of spending more. Simple cause "my faction" would not be big enough for the pledge i'm giving.

I kind of share this concern. I intend to only pick up the iron empire faction and I'm in at lieutenant level. But I pledged quite early, aware of everything that I wanted, and kinda hoped that eventually most minis/boxes would be unlocked by the time we get to the end (as I'm sure a few others did). The problem with this though is that if the snipers never get unlocked, I'll probably have to drop my pledge amount and wait for general release since they're pretty central to my plan. Don't really see much of a solution to this.

I think that by showing all unlockables straight away, a lot of people may have picked what they wanted and pledged what they needed to right at the start. Now we're all sitting about hoping new people will pledge. And this isn't really getting those snipers/mechas unlocked. It's a bit of a quandary, but I can't really see many of the existing backers significantly increasing their pledges before the end.

Also, kinda agree with your point about the freebies. I really don't need 3 different tank commanders, that one freebie could of been "your choice of tank commander". But, they are free so I'm really not going to moan.

$410k is Unlock of Tarja, Yaga Soul Weaver
With the heavy troopers upgrade at $415k. Though we have no other details of that and once that's reached there's no more SGs detailed.

Fully understanding wanting to take care of health issues first but a place holder update should possibly be posted to that effect and with at least a list of the next SGs. Otherwise it could scare away some potential new backers when they see a lack of updates without explanation.

 BrookM wrote:
What's the 410k unlock anyway? I understand they want to take it slow on the updates to get more pledgers in, but an update right about now would be grand.

It's a Yaga:


$415,000 Free Upgrade for the boxes of Heavy Troopers (details forthcoming)

No slow down on unlocks, still every $5,000.

18 days to go. I have a question. How many renders have we seen so far? I could less than 10 unlocks revealed as renders. Since we were promised that 80% of the sculpts would be squared away by the end of the campaign... shouldn't we have seen more by now?

Also, I have a deep hankering for a French thumb next to a 3D printed mini, for some reason...

Kroot, second Yaga. The first soul weaver unlocked was a Yaga.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
18 days to go. I have a question. How many renders have we seen so far? I could less than 10 unlocks revealed as renders. Since we were promised that 80% of the sculpts would be squared away by the end of the campaign... shouldn't we have seen more by now?

Also, I have a deep hankering for a French thumb next to a 3D printed mini, for some reason...

All renders are in the first post. No idea, if the number is satisfying with 18 days to go.
I don't understand the remark about French thumbs.

They are French. So they would have French thumbs. Nothing more to it, not even a hint of snideness in my comment.


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Does everyone stop thinking when a nationality is mentionned but the real goal of sentence has not been reached? I want to see a darn 3D print. Allow me my verbal curlicues!

Hope this helps with your non-nationality based question:

3D-render:


Actual metal mini:


So when you put the 3D-data into the printer, the result is very close.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
They are French. So they would have French thumbs. Nothing more to it, not even a hint of snideness in my comment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does everyone stop thinking when a nationality is mentionned but the real goal of sentence has not been reached? I want to see a darn 3D print. Allow me my verbal curlicues!

Kroot wasn't accusing you of being offensive. He was just saying that your comment didn't make any sense. Why would you want to see thumbs?

He is implying the thumbs are part of the hand holding the 3d printed mini.

Also, Kroot, edit your post about the 410k SG being the first Yaga, or I will see if I can get a mod to do it. Arushka is also a Yaga, therefore, Tarja is not the first Yaga.

So why wouldn't you just want to see the mini? I still don't see what the thumb adds to the equation.

I believe, for proof they are actually doing something? I do not know. I am just interpreting tea leaves here

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Allow me my verbal curlicues!

That's clearly a snipe at non-verbal communication. Unacceptable.

/sarcasm off

3D prints? Yes, please!


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we seem to have crested $410k

JWMarines wrote:
we seem to have crested $410k

Yep, Tarja, the Second of the Yaga Soul Weavers has been unlocked.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I want to see a darn 3D print. Allow me my verbal curlicues!

Iirc in the update with the first heavy trooper renderings they said one of the virtual sculpts has gone to the printers. Can't be that long any more until you get your wish, although perhaps without the thumb

Do I wish more had been unlocked? Yes. But there is one thing to consider.

A Stretch goal is there to encourage more pledges . They didn't technically have to unlock what they did for the massive run the first day had. What point is there in "backdating" stretch goals? None. Yet they did do some unlocks. And they may have padded the levels a bit, because they had 30 more days to plan for . Would you have unlocked everything and left yourself in a lurch? I wouldn't have. The campaign would have stalled, and possibly flamed out into the ground because peoplewould then be complaining that there wwere no further goals.

@HisDivineShadow: I was under the impression that stretch goals were also to take in funding in order to finance additional products/increase the quality of the product on offer, not just to get more money in the bank.

In reality, I don't think there is a solid definition other than the one Kickstarter themselves laid out in their Help section, which is simply ambiguous enough to allow for any use of the term as it is currently used by any backer or creator.

"A stretch goal is a funding target set by the project creator beyond the original Kickstarter goal. Stretch goals as a term and a practice emerged from the Kickstarter community as a way for creators to "stretch" beyond the initial, official goal of the Kickstarter project and raise more money (and often make cooler stuff!)."

Here is an ogryn sized metal miniature from the RH line. I will be converting a bunch of these as corrupted ogryns that will be hanging around in the underhive of my massive display board for the TGG army.

http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/someone-just-made-bloody-mess.html

They have "scaled up" a version of this with wings and extra parts to make a massive Demon Prince. I will try to make an "unboxing" post of that as soon as I can. I should also have a side by side of a SON next to the Kurganovas...

As I might have mentioned before, I will be using all 3 factions to make my IG/Sisters army. The Iron Empire will occupy the outer defenses of the hive city, since they have the gas masks to be outside. :-)

The Jailbirds will be 'down below' on the mean streets of the hive city, while the rest will be near the upper floors and chapel where the Sisters reside.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Do I wish more had been unlocked? Yes. But there is one thing to consider.

A Stretch goal is there to encourage more pledges . They didn't technically have to unlock what they did for the massive run the first day had. What point is there in "backdating" stretch goals? None. Yet they did do some unlocks. And they may have padded the levels a bit, because they had 30 more days to plan for . Would you have unlocked everything and left yourself in a lurch? I wouldn't have. The campaign would have stalled, and possibly flamed out into the ground because peoplewould then be complaining that there wwere no further goals.

I would disagree fairly strenuously (and in fact have at some length).

While there is no set reason for stretch goals, the standard practice of using them to a) improve the base product and b) expand options has worked fairly well in the past. The problem with the first day of this campaign, not to go too far over ground I've already trod down, is that they basically seem to have been rocked back on their heels and said "whoa...".

The result of that when they did come back, the backers that had jumped in early saw that far less then they expected had been unlocked.

The argument that there must always be a further stretch goal somewhat falls apart when there is this vague mention of plastic tooling (hard plastic, that is), as well as a number of intimations of as-yet not seen units.

There is always more you can put up, but when you have structured your campaign so that there is a ladder that must be climbed just to finish what people regard as "the basics", you run into potential problems. For example, if it looks like there are significant options still locked, there is the possibility that towards the end people will soften, rather then strengthen their support.

That is, no one pledged the Bones campaign on day 1 because they wanted to get C'Thulhu. But there are people that pledged TGG day 1 for items that they knew of but have yet to be unlocked (N.B., marquee characters line General Ilsa are still yet to be unlocked).

Although, in fairness, there are several other divergences from what I have regarded as good practices to quibble over.

 Jimsolo wrote:
So why wouldn't you just want to see the mini? I still don't see what the thumb adds to the equation.

For one, a thumb would confirm that it is not just a render, and two, it would give us another indication of scale, maybe.

I just hope they get better pictures than Defiance games does...

Regarding their "we need backers" update: what if they don't get them? I can see myself sitting on what I have pledged and get what would somewhat satisfy me from the unlocked list. But what about all of those clamoring for snipers, say? Is that what you mean, Buzzsaw, by softening of the pledges?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So why wouldn't you just want to see the mini? I still don't see what the thumb adds to the equation.

For one, a thumb would confirm that it is not just a render, and two, it would give us another indication of scale, maybe.

I just hope they get better pictures than Defiance games does...

Regarding their "we need backers" update: what if they don't get them? I can see myself sitting on what I have pledged and get what would somewhat satisfy me from the unlocked list. But what about all of those clamoring for snipers, say? Is that what you mean, Buzzsaw, by softening of the pledges?

Precisely. For example, I want basically... uh, all of the Iron Empire Heroes and most of the units. Which my current pledge covers (for the sake of argument). If it's going down to the wire and not everything I want has been unlocked, I am in a game of chicken: hold steady on my pledge and hope what I want is unlocked, risking paying money I will then be obligated to spend on things I don't want, or pulling back to cover what I want and know has been unlocked. The IE has, according to the main chart, 7 figures yet to be unlocked for Heroes as well as the Snipers and Mech. At $10k per main unlock, that's $90k just for that one faction.

Hopefully this won't be a problem and the final days will see completely new items put up for stretch goals, but it is a danger that one must be cognizant of.

As to the recruitment drive... uh, I'm not the most into social media, but does anyone know what that has entailed so far? The last official update was June 16th, since then there has been more then 1 unlocked stretch goal that has not been reflected on the front page (in fact we are very nearly once more out of stretch goals...).

As they said, they're going to ease back on the updates so we can focus on giving them more pledgers.

But yeah, right now for me, half of the minis I want and why I'm in on this are still locked away with no idea on when they'll be unlocked.

Look, its not like I don't want things unlocked, I'm just pointing out that having Stretch Goals, while ubiquitous, isn't Law. Its not required by KS or Country. Feeling "cheated" is too common in our "I'm entitled" cultural mindset.

Minis Kick starters just seem to have a much more "throw a tantrum if I'm not getting the free stuff I want and quit" atmosphere than any other genre.

Just a note guys:

LnR from yesterday: "Hello! We've been quite silent since late yesterday, and that was not entirely due to careful planning. While we intended to spend quite the many hours working on external communications for the KS, Benoit's body decided to take a break: he threw his back so bad he could barely walk, and when he did, he had to be completely bent at the waist... Lucky for us, he saw an excellent chiropractor today who set the articulation back, but the inflammation is still high, so when I say he's now flat on his back, well, ... he is ;-) So, in a way, it's just as well that the KS is moving more slowly for the moment, we'll be back with a vengeance in no time :-) Also there's a good chance of our unveiling quite a few stretch goals at once, which will be an opportunity to discover and share new images, instead of staring at the silhouettes. As soon as I can get my man back on Photoshop, we'll make that happen!"

This may have been posted before, but just a reminder to be patient... these things happen

 BrookM wrote:
As they said, they're going to ease back on the updates so we can focus on giving them more pledgers.

But yeah, right now for me, half of the minis I want and why I'm in on this are still locked away with no idea on when they'll be unlocked.

That's the thing, that makes no sense whatsoever to me. Quiet from the campaign directors does not, in my experience, increase numbers of backers nor does it increase excitement. Cthulhu Wars has been pelting us with updates and it seems to have had no negative effect on their pledges; generally my observation is that greater interaction with the project creator is a plus.

I had presumed that their statements about trying to gather new backers would be accompanied by a push: advertising, organizing the current campaign in a fashion that makes the benefits of pledging obvious, doing interviews...

Are they doing any of those things? Serious question, I have no knowledge that they are, but I may be missing it.

Because if the intention is that the backers are giving the hard sell to their friends, well...

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Look, its not like I don't want things unlocked, I'm just pointing out that having Stretch Goals, while ubiquitous, isn't Law. Its not required by KS or Country. Feeling "cheated" is too common in our "I'm entitled" cultural mindset.

Minis Kick starters just seem to have a much more "throw a tantrum if I'm not getting the free stuff I want and quit" atmosphere than any other genre.

These aren't freebies. The stretch goals that Raging Heroes was dragging its feet over were products that people wanted to buy.

... it's like they're playing hard to get. Isn't it? It works in relationships... but it tends to make investors and customers a bit jittery.

Eh. Finally decided to pledge. I plan to use them for 40K guard, as vets and stormtroopers alongside my Elysians. The scale will hopefully be closeish. Looking forward to seeing what more freebies come along. First kickstart for me.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Because if the intention is that the backers are giving the hard sell to their friends, well...

Spoiler:

Well, the original goal was for $12k. It's possible that they are perfectly happy with adding on another $5k/day for the rest of the campaign.

None of this explains the odd radio silence, but... hey! It is France, after all! They have a strict 25 hour work week over there, or something, right?

Well, it's a three-person operation right? With the brains out of commission due to a thrown back, I guess things can grind to a halt, half a year of prepping or not.

In all fairness, no, closer to 35. But the job situation has just been terrible. These guys are actually in a better position since they essentially created their own work.

But most of the country shuts down for August for vacation. And please, not trying to start a flame war, it is a useful, if a tad simplistic, generalization. I bet these guys probably won't shut down for that long if it's their money on the line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, Quebec has the same thing, except it's only 2 weeks and it's end of July/beginning of August. We pester the hell out of New England during those two weeks generally.

It makes me laugh anytime someone says "Well, the original goal was for $12k." Hur hur hur..... like that was ever their actual goal.

Then of course the ever present "I'm entitled/spoiled first world brats" argument gets rolled out.

It's like this thread goes in circles every few days.

It's flat out stupid to say; "Hey, we're not going to update our KS until you guys get us more pledgers!"

That should really drag the Backers to this project.

Buzz has made very well thought out comments that, people in general and RH, should listen to seriously.

 TalonZahn wrote:
It makes me laugh anytime someone says "Well, the original goal was for $12k." Hur hur hur..... like that was ever their actual goal.

Well, let's at least agree that it's indicative of their actual goal, which was likely much much less than where they are now.

If you put the initial funding goal at $10k and you think you've got a good thing going, you've probably planned stretch goals up to $100k or so.

If you think you can hit $500k or $1M, you're not going to start at $10k.

I disagree completely.

The ramp up and the groundwork they did before this KS ever started indicated they had much, much higher targets in mind. Let alone 12k or anything around it.

It also gave them the opportunity to roll out that nice little graphic at the beginning showing alllllll that stuff we unlocked right off the bat.

I'll admit that now that the CHS thing is more or less settled, I'm looking hard at a minis kickstarter to the tune of, say, 20-30k to get the machinery and materials. Remember that most kickstarters are not THIS successful and a lot of them aim low to ensure that the project gets at least minimal funding.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Remember that most kickstarters are not THIS successful and a lot of them aim low to ensure that the project gets at least minimal funding.

This man speaks the truth.

Plus, they can yell to the world their KS was funded in 30 seconds.....

Next Stretch Goals: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts





Also about shipping:

Shipping costs

Wolfwings asked me a question on Facebook a while back, and I thought I'd share my reply with you all:

THE QUESTION: "How does the drop point affects postage?" and "Is it possible to take multiple pledges at one address to save the postage? Cause you know, Major and Lt. postage rate is the same and we hate the post..."

OUR ANSWER: “The drop ship programme does NOT impact or lower postage. The drop points will mean that people can get their rewards in several waves, instead of waiting for everything to be ready at once.

As for combining pledges to a single address, we cannot discount the shipping costs on that for a simple reason. Right now, we barely break even on shipping for pledges up to about 350 Euros or so. Anything more expensive than that means that we are paying the extra postage ourselves.

Please keep in mind that high pledges mean heavy packages. Our regular shipping cost for our online shop is 9.90 Euros for Shipping with Tracking, which is over $13. But that's for orders that are usually under $150, and where we already actually subsidize a good chunk of the shipping costs.

But in the Kickstarter, the pledges will often be for much higher than 150$ and because all the minis in the KS are discounted, that does not leave us any room to pay for the extra shipping costs ourselves, or subsidize them beyond what we are already doing.

Also, we spoke to many other Kickstarter project creators who ALL told us they lose A LOT of money because of underestimated shipping costs. So we have to be very careful with that.

We worked hard to find the best possible options for everyone, and we were able to drop our shipping costs by half compared to our initial estimates. Also, for anybody outside the US, our shipping costs are quite competitive with other KS (and often downright better). Usually, US shipping costs are actually built into the price of the rewards, but we chose to be transparent and not to proceed this way.

The other thing that has to be factored in is the picking and packing costs. If we were actually able to save a few pennies on shipping, this would go towards picking and packing because right now, given the many different miniatures that will be included in each pledge, and given that pledges are all going to be different, it's going to be a very labour-intensive job to prepare them. And since we're keeping the production in Europe and the US, then the labour costs are significant...

Furthermore, on packing, we do extensive quality control, and we are known for packing our minis very carefully to avoid breakage... And that also has a cost...
I hope this helps :-)”

This Q&A was reposted on several forums, and I was happy to read this post by Azazelx on DakkaDakka (scroll down, it's the second point that he makes that refers to it) which (very kindly) confirms the quality of our packing/shipping operation. Thanks Azazelx!

ANOTHER QUESTION WE SAW COME UP: “I don't want to wait and I'm living far away from a Drop Ship Point. What can I do?”

OUR ANSWER: “There are a couple of options.

First, it is possible that a closer Drop Ship location becomes a reality by the time we are ready for the first wave of minis, as we are getting new partners just about every day. And of course, you can help us with this by going to your friendly local gaming store and telling them about the Drop Ship Programme.
Should they be interested, they can fill this form to sign up.

Second, it will be possible, for those who do not wish to wait, to choose to receive their shipment in several waves. There will be additional shipping costs for that, but if it's something you want, we'll make sure to make that option available to you, probably at Survey time, possibly before.”

I love those snipers. My command squads will now have nothing but snipers!

Woo! Kruganova snipers!

Ugh...the Kurganova concept art just looks too cool....curse my lack of funds to get everything I want from this KS right now!

Still in for mostly Jailbirds and Iron Empire at the moment, with a few Kurganova heroines.

~iPaint

The entirety of that shipping discussion is just a repost of a comment they made a couple of days back, on the kickstarter.

Doesn't help us understand what benefits the stores get, and why they would be willing to waste stocking area to hold onto a batch of minis that gives them no monetary value whereas the space being taken up is money being lost.

The Heavy trooper box upgrade is the same upgrade the normal troopers get.

And sadly, I was looking forward to the kurganova snipers, and now, since only one of them looks decent (to me,) I won't be getting them. At least we can see them now though!

somewheresomehow wrote:
Doesn't help us understand what benefits the stores get, and why they would be willing to waste stocking area to hold onto a batch of minis that gives them no monetary value whereas the space being taken up is money being lost.

Other customers see you picking up your order and ask you about it? You decide to start building in the store and other customers see you and ask the owner about it? You decide that you want something that you missed out on during the kickstarter and buy it while you're there? You start giving the store your business because they're doing you a solid?

I am just itching to drop $600+ on this kickstarter, but until I see some 3D renderings of the jailbirds, I can't in good conscience

 Breotan wrote:

somewheresomehow wrote:
Doesn't help us understand what benefits the stores get, and why they would be willing to waste stocking area to hold onto a batch of minis that gives them no monetary value whereas the space being taken up is money being lost.

Other customers see you picking up your order and ask you about it? You decide to start building in the store and other customers see you and ask the owner about it? You decide that you want something that you missed out on during the kickstarter and buy it while you're there? You start giving the store your business because they're doing you a solid?

Yet for the majority of the stores, currently, it would be people coming in regionally, and not staying for long. You assume everyone is just going to the absolutely local FLGS. You assume that people are going to care about the profit margins of the FLGS that is not their FLGS, or even if they use FLGSes. So I pick up my box of minis, that are seperated from everyone else, and aren't supposed to be outside of the box they were seperated into. And if they are shipped in a single lump sum, then the store has to spend time seperating and grouping them for everyone (because I doubt it would be 1 or 2 minis only, would be a drastic drain on RH's funds), and then either they contact the person, or RH does, which is more time, which is, literally, money, if it is a 3 man operation... oh wait, they are in France, so more than likely, it won't be RH. The costs to the FLGS actually are quite high for this sort of thing, so there has to be another benefit, because really, yours, Breotan, are altruistic based ones that you HOPE the people who use the dropship program, would do, but may or may not do.


And, if they are selling minis, before everyone in the KS gets their orders, I think people will have a very hard time supporting RH. If we, as backers, are the ones currently supporting their product, and they are focusing on keeping stores stocked with the "first wave" or whatever you want to call the first batch of minis sent for Dropship programs, and it delays the release of minis to those who can't get to a Dropship program, then we as backers, have been effectively lied to, because we are supposed to get the product before it reaches retail, or at the same time. If the product is released, in waves, then to retail at the same time, what point is there to supporting the kickstarter now, minus the freebies, which we can buy, at retail?

double, please delete

I'm curious to see how things break out by wave, and how much they'll charge for shipping each wave. It could be good, could be bad. I think my plan with this KS is to keep my lieutenant pledge, possibly do a little bit of add-ons (maybe $50, tops,) and then just be patient. I'm fully expecting delays, waves or no waves, and I don't want to tie up more money than I can happily ignore.

Also, is there anyone in the DC/MD/VA area that might want to see if we can get a friendly local to act as a drop ship? I think I'm going to ask at Drop Zone the next time I'm up that way.

 Lansirill wrote:
I'm curious to see how things break out by wave, and how much they'll charge for shipping each wave.

They aren't going to charge kickstarter backers more for the use of a dropship store. This is one of the reasons there is a bit of a strange feeling for some of us, because this comes directly out of pocket from RH, and has no other benefit than being awesome and altruistic for those who can do it.

somewheresomehow wrote:



And, if they are selling minis, before everyone in the KS gets their orders, I think people will have a very hard time supporting RH. If we, as backers, are the ones currently supporting their product, and they are focusing on keeping stores stocked with the "first wave" or whatever you want to call the first batch of minis sent for Dropship programs, and it delays the release of minis to those who can't get to a Dropship program, then we as backers, have been effectively lied to, because we are supposed to get the product before it reaches retail, or at the same time. If the product is released, in waves, then to retail at the same time, what point is there to supporting the kickstarter now, minus the freebies, which we can buy, at retail?

I'm also hung up on this one. Hence my asking this: can we get a semi-solid breakdown of the shipping waves so we can, if need be, get most of our KS stuff in wave 1?

 Darkness wrote:
I am just itching to drop $600+ on this kickstarter, but until I see some 3D renderings of the jailbirds, I can't in good conscience

While I've already put money into the KS, I am operating on a similar stance. If I don't see 3D renders of the models I want before the kickstarter ends, I'm withdrawing my funds.

somewheresomehow wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

somewheresomehow wrote:
Doesn't help us understand what benefits the stores get, and why they would be willing to waste stocking area to hold onto a batch of minis that gives them no monetary value whereas the space being taken up is money being lost.

Other customers see you picking up your order and ask you about it? You decide to start building in the store and other customers see you and ask the owner about it? You decide that you want something that you missed out on during the kickstarter and buy it while you're there? You start giving the store your business because they're doing you a solid?

Yet for the majority of the stores, currently, it would be people coming in regionally, and not staying for long. You assume everyone is just going to the absolutely local FLGS. You assume that people are going to care about the profit margins of the FLGS that is not their FLGS, or even if they use FLGSes. So I pick up my box of minis, that are seperated from everyone else, and aren't supposed to be outside of the box they were seperated into. And if they are shipped in a single lump sum, then the store has to spend time seperating and grouping them for everyone (because I doubt it would be 1 or 2 minis only, would be a drastic drain on RH's funds), and then either they contact the person, or RH does, which is more time, which is, literally, money, if it is a 3 man operation... oh wait, they are in France, so more than likely, it won't be RH. The costs to the FLGS actually are quite high for this sort of thing, so there has to be another benefit, because really, yours, Breotan, are altruistic based ones that you HOPE the people who use the dropship program, would do, but may or may not do.

I made no assumptions of any kind. I merely offered reasons that a store would possibly benefit from being in the program. You, on the other hand, offered a whole lot of assumptions on why it would fail. If my reasons for being in the program have no merit then neither do your arguments against them as everything is pure conjecture at this point. You want specifics about why a store would participate? Ask the owner of one who is.

somewheresomehow wrote:
And, if they are selling minis, before everyone in the KS gets their orders, I think people will have a very hard time supporting RH. <snip> then we as backers, have been effectively lied to, because we are supposed to get the product before it reaches retail, or at the same time.

Did I miss something? Was this specifically promised as part of the kickstarter program? I thought the only thing "promised" was that you'd get the product you pay for at the end of the kickstarter - assuming they don't just run off to Spain with the money (which usually doesn't happen). Given the stories I've seen posted about how LFGS are anti-kickstarter, promising them first shipments would be a possible way to get them to stock the product. In fact, I'm suprised more projects don't do this very thing.

Personally, I don't care if I get my product earlier or later than the stores, as long as the guys at RH are honest and up front about everything and there isn't too long of a lag between the two.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

I'm also hung up on this one. Hence my asking this: can we get a semi-solid breakdown of the shipping waves so we can, if need be, get most of our KS stuff in wave 1?

This is actually a really reasonable request. I think that it might help if we could come up with a list of the things we want to see out of the Kickstarter team. The team has been amazing at listening to community feedback, they're far more receptive than I would ever have imagined, and I think that coming up with a 'list of demands,' so to speak, might be helpful. It might help to clarify which desires from the community are actually wanted and which ones are just one or two people repeating themselves over and over again.

I personally would like to see:

1. Greater clarity about the Drop Ship program(me). Will there be any kind of benefit to the store, other than community interest? If I'm going to pitch this to the proprietor of my local game store, are there any salient selling points I can use?
2. A clear map of the shipping waves. Which models will be shipping when?
3. A longer roadmap of stretch goals.

As a side note, I had another question, since I think it's unlikely my local proprietor will be interested in the Drop Ship program. I know that if you aren't signed up for the drop program, then you will only receive your order when they are all finished. So, what if all of your minis would be finished by the third wave of production? (As a hypothetical.) Would you receive them once your minis are done, or would your order not ship until the entire Kickstarter range has been produced?

I would still like clarity about the webinars, too. Specifically, language concerns. I don't mean to be rude, but I would be interested to know what languages the presentation will be given in, and how fluent of a speaker the presenter will be in the language(s) used. I've had Skype conversations overseas that were very pleasant (one with Oded Adomi Leshem, actually) and easy to follow, and some where the presenter had such a thick accent that it was nearly impossible to follow. I'm not throwing rocks at anyone for their inability to know every language on earth, but I think the webinar would be a bigger selling point if there was a little bit of assurance that we would be able to understand the presenter, and they were able to understand us. In addition, given that there is some international interest in this KS, will the webinar be presented to people of multiple linguistic origins? That could slow it down, resulting in less time to devote to the subject at hand.

Those are just the things that are concerning me, although nothing to a great degree. Still really, really excited by all this. I had a lovely financial windfall that means I'll be able to afford my EB box after all, so my interest has been redoubled. (I didn't realize other people beyond my wife were going to give me gifts for my first father's day. Unexpected, but certainly not unappreciated!)

Congrats on the baby, incidentally.

Good point on the webinar. At that price, though, I hope a dvd copy of the experience would be a nice gesture to relieve that kind of linguistic barrier.

Breotan: You're right in saying that it was never a given about the campaign that backers get their stuff first. I think it comes from an old school assumption that you please your backers as soon as possible. As an unfit analogy, take my fiancee and I's position. We contracted a loan with someone to buy an existing business. We damn well make sure that money-lender sees his payment first day of the month, even if we have to eat KD for a week.

As you aptly pointed out, they made zero promises. And we have zero protection. But it would be nice of them.

 Breotan wrote:
Personally, I don't care if I get my product earlier or later than the stores, as long as the guys at RH are honest and up front about everything and there isn't too long of a lag between the two.

That is the part I care about. I may get grumpy, but if they are up front? I won't be angry. Grumpy can be sated by going "That is an amazing mini! I can't wait to get my greedy mitts on it!" Whereas, if I am angry, I would probably demand a refund, because really, if it turns out to be that they are selling to retailers and I am second fiddle to that, and there was no up front "Hey, we are letting these dropship stores sell product early, because of their willingness to be awesome!" statement, then I as a person would not only feel lied too, but also stolen from. The emotional response may be my own opinion, but I think communication on this program, to us, as backers, is crucial so we can either a.) know the whole story, b.) stick our heads in the sands like ostriches, and hope everything turns out okay, or c.) take our money and wait for retail.

And yeah, all we are doing is currently assuming, since RH hasn't been the most open about some of their methodologies so far. They have been communicating far more, up until the back sprain, but these somewhat downturn, and the "get backers so we can comment!" ideology, is going to hurt them, in the long run.

Anyone know if the game they're making for these models is going to be a one shot, or few shot styled board game or a full blown minis game that will be well supported for many years to come?

I'm assuming it's going to be a full blown minis game, since a one shot would likely be a boxed deal that we would have seen already.

I too, assume a minis game. One I would enthusiastically play, probably without regard for rules quality!

I hope minis game. I don't like putting money into oneshot things. Part of the joy of minis games is that they tend to last a long time, always getting new content and models.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Congrats on the baby, incidentally.

Thanks!

Isoulle wrote:
I hope minis game. I don't like putting money into oneshot things. Part of the joy of minis games is that they tend to last a long time, always getting new content and models.

That's why I dig minis games too, although if I'm honest I pledged into Raging Heroes before I even knew a game was in the works. I just like the minis that much! (And intend to use them in 40k, of course. )

Full blown minis game. Looks like a lot of human on human fighting, but once the Dark Elves get released we can all tag team the pointy eared freaks who then there better'n us!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Full blown minis game. Looks like a lot of human on human fighting, but once the Dark Elves get released we can all tag team the pointy eared freaks who then there better'n us!

I'm pretty sure the Dark Elves are planned to be a fantasy army. It might be a little unfair to make them fight people with lasers and whatnot!

All their other planned armies (TGG, the SoB wanna bes) are Sci Fi and they've said the DE will be for the RH game. So I'm just extrapolating they're another faction.

Maybe they'll be a high magic faction? Like a more serious version of the Spelljammer concept? Shoot, as a transport vehicle, how freaking awesome would a Smalljammer be?

Why can't it be a double function army, same with the SoB wannabes? Would make better sense since releasing a single faction as a kickstarter, would be a pain to keep people interested in enough to get very far.

If you only have say Grim Dark Space Nuns, you would get a very distinct crowd, and it doesn't scream multiple faction in it, enough to have a fully fleshed road map. Whereas, Battle Nuns, being generic, could allow them to build both a fantasy and space line, that both groups could latch onto, and bleed our wallets dry. Or, better yet... have both at the same time, and both be dual functioning. So much money being thrown at them, they would need many nets to try and catch it all.

It's really hard to make dual function sci fi/fantasy though.

I'm sure you could USE them for whatever kind of game you want, somewheresomehow, but I think that the Raging Heroes specific game is going to be scifi, at this point. (Although I wouldn't rule out a fantasy game at a later date.)

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All their other planned armies (TGG, the SoB wanna bes) are Sci Fi and they've said the DE will be for the RH game. So I'm just extrapolating they're another faction.

Look at the concept art they released here though: http://www.ragingheroes.com/pages/kickstarter-news

Horses and harpies. Though maybe (like the current KS) the DE KS will wind up being multiple armies, and it will be a 2-in-1 KS for sci-fi and fantasy DE armies? *shrug*

So can we add to the list clarity on product distribution, by this I mean do we as backers receive ours before retailers.
I do feel slightly cheated by this as in a sense we are the money backers to get the project into production, on that front I feel it is only fair to reward those who made this a reality.
If you think about it there is no reason for us to take the financial risk if they are going to retailers first, although this has not been stated I am sure there are many backers feeling the same.

Also as to the update issues when I backed the DreamForge Kickstarter I was only after the Mortis, however after each update I ended up getting at least one of everything (except the 15mm models).
So in a sense going quite does not really inspire backers IMHO.

If I understand this right, dirty dog, you're asking if the backers who are not using the Drop Ship program get their shipments before or after the models become available for retail?

The answer, as I understand it, is no. If you are signed up for the Drop Ship program, then you will get them as they become available. Otherwise, your order doesn't ship until ALL the minis are ready. I think they talked about this earlier.

If I've deciphered what you're saying correctly in the latter part of your post, you're then saying that if the answer is as I believe it to be, then you feel cheated, correct? In which case, you should take a couple of things into consideration. The first is that (assuming you pledged at lieutenant level or above) you are getting free minis, including one that is exclusive to the Kickstarter. You are also receiving those minis that you are paying for at a discount that those who wait for retail will not enjoy. In addition, the need for Raging Heroes to ship your order all at once (to keep shipping costs reasonable) shouldn't exclude them from beginning to sell the minis that they've already begun to produce, should it?

If that doesn't make you feel better, then you might want to look into the Drop Ship Program. If you can get a game store that is local to you sign up for the Drop Ship Program, then you won't have to wait at all!

Hope that helps.

 Jimsolo wrote:
If I understand this right, dirty dog, you're asking if the backers who are not using the Drop Ship program get their shipments before or after the models become available for retail?

The answer, as I understand it, is no. If you are signed up for the Drop Ship program, then you will get them as they become available. Otherwise, your order doesn't ship until ALL the minis are ready. I think they talked about this earlier.

If I've deciphered what you're saying correctly in the latter part of your post, you're then saying that if the answer is as I believe it to be, then you feel cheated, correct? In which case, you should take a couple of things into consideration. The first is that (assuming you pledged at lieutenant level or above) you are getting free minis, including one that is exclusive to the Kickstarter. You are also receiving those minis that you are paying for at a discount that those who wait for retail will not enjoy. In addition, the need for Raging Heroes to ship your order all at once (to keep shipping costs reasonable) shouldn't exclude them from beginning to sell the minis that they've already begun to produce, should it?

If that doesn't make you feel better, then you might want to look into the Drop Ship Program. If you can get a game store that is local to you sign up for the Drop Ship Program, then you won't have to wait at all!

Hope that helps.

Thanks for clearing that up yes I see your point however there are only 3 drop points for the UK and they are all rather centralised (which is to far from me to get to) so that option aint going to happen.

What I was wondering is could they not offer the same system DreamForge did and release in waves, at least that way we would be getting something at intervals rather than waiting nearly a year.

This could be set up as an option bases you either have it sent out in waves or a complete order when finished, I understand that there would be a shipping charge for this and a need to break it down to group releases but surly this would be a better option.

I know there would still be some delay for backers as to the retailers but at least you would be getting some stuff at intervals rather than waiting, also as I have found with most kickstarters there are all ways delays so the wait could be even longer.

 lone dirty dog wrote:

What I was wondering is could they not offer the same system DreamForge did and release in waves, at least that way we would be getting something at intervals rather than waiting nearly a year.
This could be set up as an option bases you either have it sent out in waves or a complete order when finished, I understand that there would be a shipping charge for this and a need to break it down to group releases but surly this would be a better option.
I know there would still be some delay for backers as to the retailers but at least you would be getting some stuff at intervals rather than waiting, also as I have found with most kickstarters there are all ways delays so the wait could be even longer.

WolfStark posted the following:

Second, it will be possible, for those who do not wish to wait, to choose to receive their shipment in several waves. There will be additional shipping costs for that, but if it's something you want, we'll make sure to make that option available to you, probably at Survey time, possibly before.

Well, in that case I am happy now so thanks guys for the help and info, I joined late so I missed a lot of this and I just want some cool looking minis.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Otherwise, your order doesn't ship until ALL the minis are ready.

Question for the Heralds, is the 2014 shipping date listed in the KS the Wave 1 shipping or is that the expected release date of the full run to backers?

https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/

Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

@Vhalan
Sorry I am confused today, I send the answer on the KS page, instead of here. But here the official answer for you:
"The whole range of release. First wave will be in early fall."

2014 is the final ship date. Pre-delays. Wave 1 is actually rumoured to be ready to ship as early as September.

They really need to clarify which models are to be available in which waves/when, and also what the additional shipping costs will be. It's all a bit vague right now (like the hard plastic talk).

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/
Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

Can I vote for Leutnant R. Brechen with his famous Kübelwagen?

I prefer Hauptmann Rülpsen with his infamous Bierwagen...

 Kroothawk wrote:

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/
Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

Can I vote for Leutnant R. Brechen with his famous Kübelwagen?

Nice one.

The waves you are referring to Jim, are in reference to the dropship program. Not an additional wave shipment program, as far as we know, as they have yet to qualify if the waves were meant seperate from the Drop Ship or not.

Also, I am PAYING for that exclusive figure, so please, try again about getting something "exclusive" from this KS besides having to automatically pay for it. Especially since it comes in Painter box and above. The freebies are purchaseable at retail as well. Yes, we get them free, and we can get "significant discounts," on very select model sets, but time is money friend.

And Jim, you are obviously not understanding what I am saying. If they release a single faction, for a single game type (Dark Elves, for Fantasy OR Sc Fi,) they won't have enough singular individual models to appeal beyond a small crowd. Remember, we have 3 factions, each one with their own feel, that appeals as stand ins for differing game systems. A singular Dark Elf or Space Nuns group, would not be big enough to generate the same amount of hooplah.

To also note, we are almost at the halfway mark, with 17 days left, and 31/32 unlocks left to get. I know we will get there, but think about the fact we have a bunch of people who threw down big, to get everything, and some people waiting on the fences to see that all are unlocked to get an entire faction. When you only have ONE faction, and one selection, you reduce your coverage, and then you have to throw up another kickstarter for the battle nuns, which means that by the time you have the third kickstarter, people are either really energized for your work, or drained from it.

Combining and expanding allows for a singularly powerful campaign, that will appeal to the broadest audience, and allow you to begin tooling and paying for the work of both factions, faster, and bring them to an eager market, not currently drained by two of your own kickstarters already.

In essence, it prevents KS burn out, and draws in a bigger audience.

Editted, because I am a stickler on my own posts, and when I see an overlooked is/was/were conflict, I must edit it!

I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

somewheresomehow wrote:
The waves you are referring to Jim, are in reference to the dropship program. Not an additional wave shipment program, as far as we know, as they have yet to qualify if the waves were meant seperate from the Drop Ship or not.

The last update mentions a possible separate (paid) option to send the miniatures in several shipments

LnR in Update #18 wrote:Second, it will be possible, for those who do not wish to wait, to choose to receive their shipment in several waves. There will be additional shipping costs for that, but if it's something you want, we'll make sure to make that option available to you, probably at Survey time, possibly before.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

They don't seem to have the necessary man power to do anything but this kickstarter for the foreseeable future. I reckon there might be some overlap at the tail end of the delivery though.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

That's what I gave them as the most important piece of feedback when I filled in my herald form.

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/]

Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

My nomination is winning

With seperate arm/weapon set ups, I see no reason the Dark Elfs and Space Nuns couldn't dual purpose SciFi/Fantasy.

Thanks Minx! I would quote you and thank you that way, but with my fear of the quote box most of the time, I just wanted to make sure you got a thanks from me for at least setting me straight THAT way!

And BrookM, thank you for that as well! I really want them to succeed, and I want their other KS's to succeed more than this one.

Also, did the math, well, as best of math as we can do with the limited time, and the giant skewing first day.

If we assume 5-6.5k a day, that would mean, by 3 Days left, we will have gained 91k (from now,) meaning we would have gained 9 of the main unlocks, and 9 of the "freebies" (being just short of the 10th freebie.) That is including the K Snipers. The reason I stop at Day 3, is because I have a sneaky suspicion that with the Fourth of July weekend/break coming up, people will either just sit on their pledges, or pull out if they don't have the unlocks they want yet. So Day 3 will start to see the spikes up and down and 48 hours will see more manuevering, and 24 and Sub 24, will either drastically spike up, or petter upwards slowly (seen a couple of slow gain last days for KSes, but they do always gain.)

I think with well done updates, and them not following the silly "bring more backers and then we will update!" shebang, we can see greater than 6.5k days (we tend to get them on big update days,) which changes how many unlocks we will hit, and the uncertainty that will come closer to the end.

I personally feel we will unlock everything, but I am of the camp that... unlock it all with days to spare, so we can all breathe easy, and then rush to make additions to our pledges, with amazing new work that they tease us with.

 shamikebab wrote:

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/]
Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

My nomination is winning

Can you tell what the alternatives are? Not everyone has an account on that fraud network.

somewheresomehow wrote:
Also, did the math, well, as best of math as we can do with the limited time, and the giant skewing first day.

If we assume 5-6.5k a day, that would mean, by 3 Days left, we will have gained 91k (from now,) meaning we would have gained 9 of the main unlocks, and 9 of the "freebies" (being just short of the 10th freebie.) That is including the K Snipers. The reason I stop at Day 3, is because I have a sneaky suspicion that with the Fourth of July weekend/break coming up, people will either just sit on their pledges, or pull out if they don't have the unlocks they want yet. So Day 3 will start to see the spikes up and down and 48 hours will see more manuevering, and 24 and Sub 24, will either drastically spike up, or petter upwards slowly (seen a couple of slow gain last days for KSes, but they do always gain.)

I think with well done updates, and them not following the silly "bring more backers and then we will update!" shebang, we can see greater than 6.5k days (we tend to get them on big update days,) which changes how many unlocks we will hit, and the uncertainty that will come closer to the end.

I personally feel we will unlock everything, but I am of the camp that... unlock it all with days to spare, so we can all breathe easy, and then rush to make additions to our pledges, with amazing new work that they tease us with.

Yeah, I think updates are the key to driving this forwards. Whilst update 18 revealed the sniper unlock at $420k that's all it really gave us, something you can see reflected in the pledges today. We're currently at around $1k pledged since kicktraq rolled into today, and I know for quite a while earlier we were sitting on a negative gain as someone dropped/reduced their pledge. So, it's been a slog of a day that's still well bellow the average we need per day to get everything unlocked before the last 72 hours.

Whilst spamming us with updates doesn't seem to be RHs style, a more regular update schedule would potentially help things ticking along. Say if we got an update every afternoon / evening (French time) that would bring people back to the KS to see what's happening and give people confidence that the creators are involved as not everyone has time or the desire to sit reading through all the comments to spot the odd one or two updates that are posted in there.

Similarly, a longer list of coming stretch goals would keep people interested as well. It doesn't have to be fully detailed with art and a write up for every character but just an overview of the next 5 or so addon unlocks and corresponding freebie unlocks would be sufficient. This serves two purposes, firstly it mitigates the risk of there being no pending SGs listed, in case there's a spike over night when RH are sleeping, and secondly it would help drive interest and give people faith that X/Y/Z add-on would be unlocked soon and they don't need to worry about it being missed.

I do feel that everything will get unlocked by the end of the KS, but there's a lot of work to get from here to there. We need to hit ~$730k funding (IIRC) to unlock everything that was initially revealed. This means we need just under $317k to get there from the current funding of $413,159. If we discount the expected last day rush, that will likely change everything and make all these numbers moot, the KS needs an average of $18647 a day to actually unlock everything. This figure includes today, which is very short of target and assumes that there's no spike on the last day.

Now if funding doesn't, for whatever reason, hit the figure of $730k (based on current SG intervals) then I can see a lot of people doing last minute pledge reductions as they cut funding so as to not end up with figures that they don't want. How much of an impact this has can only be theorised at present, but if something that a lot of people are looking for doesn't get unlocked then it could have a significant impact. Though if this were to happen it could potentially have a big impact on the communities perception of RH as a company and the way that they handle things.

If they were to reduce the distance between unlock SGs (those that don't give us free stuff but just allow us to include things in our pledge totals) to $7.5k then we'd need another $232.5k or a total of $645k to get there, which would be roughly $13676 per day. Whilst that is $5k a day lower it still well above the daily average that we have been seeing. Taking this further to $5k between SGs means we'd need $155k, total $568k or $9117 per day to unlock everything. Even if they keep the freebies at the $10k interval, and I can't see them being increased in frequency, then that's still quite a few extra freebies / upgrade packs, and we can ensure that everything does get unlocked without having to depend on last minute rushes in funding.

 BrookM wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

That's what I gave them as the most important piece of feedback when I filled in my herald form.

When looking at this from a business perspective, I don't have any problem with them running the next kickstarter before this one is completely fulfilled- aka every mini is in all of our grubby hands.

Here's why:

- Each big project has a significant lead time before the first - let alone the last - product appears at retail, or in the mail/post/UPS truck/etc...
- You need funding before you can put up the down payment (or full payment sometimes) to your production facility
- You've got to have all of your packaging, shipping, distribution agreements, etc... set up

That all takes time and money.

So, to me, if they wait to start the next kickstarter (through which they acquire the funds to start making contracts with suppliers/distributors), it's just going to take longer for the next project to be completed, leaving a dead space of nothing new coming in.

They've said their next project is dark elves, so as soon as the last piece of concept art is done on this one, I would expect they will kick into gear producing concept art for dark elves. And as soon as the last sculpt is done on these, I would expect them to kick into gear sculpting dark elves. This piece of the process is necessary before they can begin the next kickstarter. They HAVE to have concepts and sculpts to show for the kickstarter.

Kind of have to go on a few assumptions based on what they've said at this point, but...
- Let's assume the art and sculpts for dark elves are going to be mostly done by december (when they say they want to run the dark elves).
- It's safe to assume that fulfillment of every mini in KS1 will NOT be done until well into 2014, let's assume 1 year - so summer 2014 they ship out everything to non-drop ship people and the last wave to the drop sites. So, starting in ~september of this year, retail stores and RH's site will start getting 'waves' of new 'releases' to begin selling.
- Let's assume that the second kickstarter will have the same distribution timeline

Option 1 - Do NOT run the next KS till the previous one is COMPLETELY fulfilled
- If they wait until summer 2014 for the next kickstarter, that means they and we have to wait potentially another year after that one ends before they could do nuns with guns. That's summer 2015 for the nuns KS and summer 2016 for the last of the nuns models to ship.
- Timeline goes like this if they wait to complete fulfillment before beginning the next round of KS funding:
July13 - KS1 ends
Sept13 - KS1 waves start
July14 - KS1 waves complete
Aug14 - KS2 ends (starts in July)
Oct14 - KS2 waves begin (2 months between KS end and waves)
Aug15 - KS2 waves complete
Sept15 - KS3 ends (starts in Aug)
Nov15 - KS3 waves begin (2 months between KS end and waves)
Sep16 - KS3 waves complete

Option 2 - RUN a KS every 6 months
- This will half the time it would take to get to each army
- Timeline looks something like this:
July13 - KS1 ends
Sep13 - KS1 waves begin
Dec13 - KS2 begins
Jan14 - KS2 ends
Mar14 - KS2 waves begin
Jun14 - KS3 begins
July14 - KS1 waves end
July14 - KS3 ends
Sep14 - KS3 waves begin
Dec14 - KS4? (the game?) begins???
Jan15 - KS2 waves end
Jan15 - KS4? ends?
Mar15 - KS4? Waves? Begin?
July15 - KS3 waves end
Who knows after that... KS4 is completely speculation...


They may not have the capacity to overlap the KS's production and distribution like this, but it would certainly not hurt my feelings if they could speed up the time-line a bit more than 1 army per year. And maybe even get to the game before 2020. When you extrapolate the time-lines of these projects, you'd really be losing momentum between KS's. But with the large investments in this first KS, they may in fact need some space to let people recover.

JW You are forgetting something very important. They already have armies planned for release that aren't part of the KS, tied in with the release of the rules, which will not be funded by Kickstarter.

The Jet girls, for example, are going to be released through a retailer means, alongside the rules.

So there is no giant gap, as they already planned a dual tract for some of this.

They have also made some cues and hinted that the game will launch before Elves or Nuns are released. It just wasn't in the scope of this Kickstarter.

somewheresomehow wrote:
JW You are forgetting something very important. They already have armies planned for release that aren't part of the KS, tied in with the release of the rules, which will not be funded by Kickstarter.

The Jet girls, for example, are going to be released through a retailer means, alongside the rules.

So there is no giant gap, as they already planned a dual tract for some of this.

Good point, I had overlooked that. I thought they were doing the game as a KS too.

No problem! And if the game was going to be a KS, it would be... somewhat foolish to release it Solo. You would need to tie it in, because of the KS rule where you can't sell your store as part of the kickstarter. It has to fund "new things."

Which, I can see a couple of ways of getting around that rule, but I wouldn't recommend it if we want to keep it safe and sane!

And that is kind of why we are trying to make sure they don't overlap too much.

Think of it in this scenario: You are just suddenly releasing the final wave, and you want my money again, already? I haven't even seen all the minis yet from what I just threw my wallet at you for, and you want more? The reaction will be manifold, but there are two that stick out...

1.) There are those who would gladly throw more wallets at them.
2.) There are those who, burned out from having to wait forever to get their full pledge, that they just don't like RH that much.

I would rather they came back to KS with a super strong fan base, than with one that is on the fence still.

KS campaigns are not for instant gratification. There is a wait. By now, most people should understand that.

Didn't the Mantic thread have a similar Convo to this? Starting up a new Is before everything was done from the previous.

Keep in mind that the kickstarter is for three armies, i.e. three factions (Iron Empire fighting the rest, Jailbirds not happy with Kurganova rulership). So rules might be for these, maybe later add the sisters. But definitely not for Fantasy Dark Elves.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/]
Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

My nomination is winning

Can you tell what the alternatives are? Not everyone has an account on that fraud network.

Kortzfleisch 19 Votes
Kroenhardt 3 Votes
Kieta Drachan 2 Votes
Kurtzen 29 Votes
Kurtz 9 Votes
Fleischer 3 Votes
FeindHammer 2 Votes
Katze 1 Vote
Schwartz
Kortig
Kotzen

I would be interested in the background of Kurtzen though. Edit: Okay I know now, World of Warcraft

I like Kieta Drachan, which sounds in German like kindergarden hag/monster

 BrookM wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

That's what I gave them as the most important piece of feedback when I filled in my herald form.

Wish people would give Mantic this advice. :(

I eventually pulled out of Mantic's Deadzone because I saw a cathorse. Some will say I was wrong, and a part of me says they are right... but I do hope Raging Heroes doesn't go the Mantic route of KS after KS after KS.

Their products are good enough to stand on their own. Seriously. I'm saying this in the nicest possible way. Those minis will be amazing, going KS gives me the feeling they didn't believe in them enough. I understand the drive for capital to have a full range, but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone check the kicktraq? I don't know if today is a bad day worldwide, but the harvest seems to be seriously drying up.

Have they addressed the questions regarding hard plastics yet?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I certainly hope they wouldn't do another kickstarter before having delivered on this one, at any rate... right?

Completely without Snark, they've said that they want to do three Kickstarters this year. Now with all the delays in getting this one up and running, I'd hope/assume they no longer have such plans to do three. Regardless, I am concerned that they will be trying to take another trip to the well in Nov/Dec for the DE or Nuns - which will be well before delivering on this one. Which in turn would make me very unhappy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamikebab wrote:

 WolfStark wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/questions/10151646608846168/]

Survey for a new name for Kotzen, because that means to vomit in german.

My nomination is winning

You suggested "Charlie Sheen"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
With seperate arm/weapon set ups, I see no reason the Dark Elfs and Space Nuns couldn't dual purpose SciFi/Fantasy.

There's a lot that depends on. Powered armour, etc, bionics, biotech, etc. You might get a middle ground with Steampunk-style nuns, but it's still not quite happily fitting into fantasy.

Kicktraq is showing today's pledge numbers to be around 900, with 9 hours to go until the day ends.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I eventually pulled out of Mantic's Deadzone because I saw a cathorse. Some will say I was wrong, and a part of me says they are right... but I do hope Raging Heroes doesn't go the Mantic route of KS after KS after KS.

Their products are good enough to stand on their own. Seriously. I'm saying this in the nicest possible way. Those minis will be amazing, going KS gives me the feeling they didn't believe in them enough. I understand the drive for capital to have a full range, but still.

A) Cathorse? I've never f-ed around with Kickstarter before, so this is all new to me. Is that some newfangled slang you World Wide Webernet kids are using these days?

B) As to your point about them not believing in their product...hmmmm. I do agree that these minis are great, but you make a good point. Do you think that maybe the KS was just to give them a way to reach a broader audience, perhaps, rather than just a lack of confidence in their own quality?

Azazelx: I think I have a pretty good handle on your prose style. Even if you did snark, I don't think you do it out of a mean spirit. I had also assumed that 4 months of delay would mean less than the three KS this year.

Honestly, I paid extra shipping to get my Dreamforge in waves, and would do it again. I'm used to paying postage, it's not even an issue in my case.

Regarding Kicktraq: if all of the money we see is from those 14 new backers, that means an average of 61$ each. That's not a lot of weight being pulled in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I eventually pulled out of Mantic's Deadzone because I saw a cathorse. Some will say I was wrong, and a part of me says they are right... but I do hope Raging Heroes doesn't go the Mantic route of KS after KS after KS.

Their products are good enough to stand on their own. Seriously. I'm saying this in the nicest possible way. Those minis will be amazing, going KS gives me the feeling they didn't believe in them enough. I understand the drive for capital to have a full range, but still.

A) Cathorse? I've never f-ed around with Kickstarter before, so this is all new to me. Is that some newfangled slang you World Wide Webernet kids are using these days?

B) As to your point about them not believing in their product...hmmmm. I do agree that these minis are great, but you make a good point. Do you think that maybe the KS was just to give them a way to reach a broader audience, perhaps, rather than just a lack of confidence in their own quality?

The fact that they raked in that much cash in the first 2 days shows that they could have amassed most of the money needed with a 15 days campaign. They were out there. They have a well known and beloved product. I'm saying it is a possibility that if they would have thought smaller goals, sent faster to market, the product could have spoken for itself.

Here is a cathorse, and no, it is not a He-Man toy repurposed:
http://i.imgur.com/22zP4hI.jpg

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I eventually pulled out of Mantic's Deadzone because I saw a cathorse. Some will say I was wrong, and a part of me says they are right... but I do hope Raging Heroes doesn't go the Mantic route of KS after KS after KS.

There are soime big problems with running campaigns that overlap with delivery on your first, such as the current campaign becomes a platform for the airing of grievances about the yet-to-be-delivered one.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Anyone check the kicktraq? I don't know if today is a bad day worldwide, but the harvest seems to be seriously drying up.

Oooh, ouch. It's not a global/national trend or holiday so near as I can tell* (it's not so much that Cthulhu Wars beat them, but Warriors of Darkmyre beat them: no slight to the good people at JunkRobot, but they are not going to reach the lofty heights that TGG has already reached).

If I were to speculate, the most obvious problem is the lack of interaction over the last several days. Over the last 3 days there have been two updates; in contrast Cthulhu Wars had 3 updates just today alone.



*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

somewheresomehow wrote:
Kicktraq is showing today's pledge numbers to be around 900, with 9 hours to go until the day ends.

9 hours? To the best of my knowledge Kicktraq goes off EST, so there are about... uh, 70 minutes left. Where is it midnight in 9 hours?

And as we learned in marketing class: a satisfied customer tells 4 people. A dissatisfied customer tells 7. On average.

I've revised my plans for these minis and baring a heroine of three, I'd be all set with what we have, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think 9 hours from now it'll be NZ's midnight.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
And as we learned in marketing class: a satisfied customer tells 4 people. A dissatisfied customer tells 7. On average.

Are these figures American, Canadian, global, or local?

Pulled out of the behind of an esteemed French marketing expert. Because getting a local book was apparently out of the question. That was wayyyyy back in 2005, before most of web 2.0 was firmly entrenched culturally.

Buzz, I was just quoting Kicktraq's big timer up top. So, I am assuming that is the mark of the 24 time period?

Edit: No, you are right. Seems to be based off EST.

Slowest day yet. 1164$

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Azazelx: I think I have a pretty good handle on your prose style. Even if you did snark, I don't think you do it out of a mean spirit. I had also assumed that 4 months of delay would mean less than the three KS this year.

Are you sure? I mean, I understand that you're ...that you're French(!)

But yeah, I'd assume so too, and I'd hope they don't do any more in 2013. Hearing that they wanted to do three in one year gave me pause initially as well. But seeing how so many others seem to treat KS, I am concerned that these guys will try to pull a second one out which I think would lead to very bad things if they were trying to balance the logistics of two. Considering the logistical challenges that they seem to have when releasing 2-3 products to retail, one KS with this many figures would appear to be a herculean task. We've also seen how project creators with an outstanding project tend to put the first one aside while they concentrate on the ramp-up and running of a subsequent campaign for a good two months at least.

Honestly, I paid extra shipping to get my Dreamforge in waves, and would do it again. I'm used to paying postage, it's not even an issue in my case.

It really depends on the numbers and details. None of which we have at this stage.

Regarding Kicktraq: if all of the money we see is from those 14 new backers, that means an average of 61$ each. That's not a lot of weight being pulled in.

This is the trouble with the belief that many KS creators have of thinking that there's just an endless number of suckers out there ready to pour in an unlimited amount of money. There's still not enough bonus/free stuff to make people who were on the fence jump in here, and I think it's pretty clear that there's not going to be. Hell, there's probably not enough bonus/free stuff to make a fair few of the existing pledgers stay in when we get to the last 48 hours. I'm sure there will be a spike, but at this stage there's not going to be a $300k spike as some are hoping, because there aren't enough freebies, nor is there really any reason for most pledgers to increase their pledges (and most of the launch night spike probably grabbed the biggest EB pledge that they could/can/will be able to afford).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
And as we learned in marketing class: a satisfied customer tells 4 people. A dissatisfied customer tells 7. On average.

Are these figures American, Canadian, global, or local?

Those numbers more or less gel (ie, close enough) with what I've also encountered in my own studies.

For me personally the sweet spot is too damn high in, plus it penalizes people who are in it not for an army, but just want a few of the characters.

I'm still sitting at $40 myself, but with half the minis I want still locked up with no word on when they're going to unlock, ehhhh, going to be an interesting last 48 hours for me.

I'm sure they'll all be unlocked before all is said and done, Brookm.

What is this, 'sweet spot' I keep hearing about? And where are people believing it to be?

The sweet spot is the pledge level that nets you the freebies and other free stuff.

At the moment I'm in for lieutenant, but I'll definitely be re-evaluating that closer to the end. I know roughly what I want, and my final pledge will probably be a lot higher, but I can't work out exactly what pledge level I need until I know what will be available. The way the pledge levels are set up really doesn't give me incentive to increase until the end, and to be honest it's a bit frustrating.

As for having the option for paying extra to get stuff shipped in waves, that's definitely something I am in favor of.

You could always try asking your local store to become part of the dropship program, though I do wonder what the actual incentives are for these stores.

I'm in the same boat; I want to support it and only really want a few minis to paint or pad out my guard army with. The freebie / sweet spot is fairly high after postage and probably includes more minis than I actually want.

As it progresses, I'm assuming there will be more freebies making it seem more valuable, in which case I'll stay in if I like them.

But I'm wary about that after the Reaper kickstarter where I bought in due to the huge amount of freebies even though I know I have no use for 95% of them, but they were just too cheap to pass up.

I'm still kicking myself over missing out on the Reaper campaign, all them extra minis.. I'm sure a use could be found for all of them eventually!

What's the "sweet spot"? That is, what should I pledge to make sure I get the freebies?
The "sweet spot" gives you access to all the freebies that will be unlocked during the Kickstarter. This is available to anyone who pledges at LIEUTENANT BOX level and higher pledge levels.

Freebies have not been announced yet, but for example, you may expect to see an alternate version of Charlie, the Kurganovas' war bulldog (original one shown here: http://bit.ly/kurganovas ).

 BrookM wrote:
For me personally the sweet spot is too damn high in, plus it penalizes people who are in it not for an army, but just want a few of the characters.

It's not that the sweet spot is too high me thinks, it's that you want free stuff at $40. Not quite the same thing. Given there are already 5+ free things and more to come I think they put it in the right spot (give or take $20)

Sweet spots are usually at $90-150. This one is from $150 + $20ish post (if you got the initial EB in the opening seconds) up to $160 + $20ish post if you want it now. So Basically $180.

Of course, the freebies/extras lists for the more successful KS campaigns tend to be a touch more expansive than what we see above... I'm sure the RH figures listed there will pretty much be subjectively better than most anything that Mantic puts out for DZ, but a few more wouldn't go astray...

 Makaleth wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
For me personally the sweet spot is too damn high in, plus it penalizes people who are in it not for an army, but just want a few of the characters.

It's not that the sweet spot is too high me thinks, it's that you want free stuff at $40. Not quite the same thing. Given there are already 5+ free things and more to come I think they put it in the right spot (give or take $20)

I said, it's too high for me personally, I haven't been crying out for freebies, I'm just saying, if you're building an army, you're golden, if you are in it for just a few minis, like I am, that's bad luck.

Why not pool with someone else and divide it up?

My friends are all Dutch and alas, all cheapskates.

Nah, I've asked around, but they all like the chunky GW plastics. I think it might be time to find new friends.

I might check with some friends across the Pond Channel, I meant the Channel.

 BrookM wrote:
I'm still kicking myself over missing out on the Reaper campaign, all them extra minis.. I'm sure a use could be found for all of them eventually!

I'm starting to kick myself for going into it; yes the stuff was seriously cheap, but I've got into 3 new games since the KS ended so I'm already overloaded with figures. As such I'm wary of investing in another batch of figures that'll turn up in a years time. I'll barely have gotten the reaper stuff open by then

I think what's worrying me most is that one of the key creatives (and owner) clearly has medical issues that could kill his ability to work on the project

we had him having to go to the doctor just after launch, and now being out of action again with his back (presumably that's why he was at the doctor earlier, but without knowing for certain you worry)

If he can't work on the project things will slow down for sure even if they do bring in 'cover'.

 BrookM wrote:
My friends are all Dutch and alas, all cheapskates.

Nah, I've asked around, but they all like the chunky GW plastics. I think it might be time to find new friends.

I might check with some friends across the Pond Channel, I meant the Channel.

Don't give up on your friends just yet, first send them to have their eyes tested and get their heads examined. No one in their right minds like GW Cadians!

 BrookM wrote:

 Makaleth wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
For me personally the sweet spot is too damn high in, plus it penalizes people who are in it not for an army, but just want a few of the characters.

It's not that the sweet spot is too high me thinks, it's that you want free stuff at $40. Not quite the same thing. Given there are already 5+ free things and more to come I think they put it in the right spot (give or take $20)

I said, it's too high for me personally, I haven't been crying out for freebies, I'm just saying, if you're building an army, you're golden, if you are in it for just a few minis, like I am, that's bad luck.

Ah, sorry, must have read fast. That's perfectly reasonable

 Buzzsaw wrote:
If I were to speculate, the most obvious problem is the lack of interaction over the last several days. Over the last 3 days there have been two updates; in contrast Cthulhu Wars had 3 updates just today alone.

The dependence of the kicktraq graphs on updates or more frequent interactions for this particular kickstarter seems to be rather low. The number of daily backers is slowly decreasing regardless of their updates and "spiked" only when the kickstarter got more exposure on some blogs. I guess most of the interested people who know about the kickstarter are either in already or wait for more information, i.e. the last days of the campaign. So, it's a matter of reaching more people to help the kickstarter along, as they've acknowledged as well:

LnR in Update #17 wrote:Furthermore, we need new backers! So this week-end and beginning of the week, we're gonna focus a bit more on communicating with the outside world, and we invite you to do the same. This means that you may not get as many Updates in the next few days, but it is for a good cause. The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy will conquer the world!

I just did a bit of Math-fu this morning... and I am puzzled by something: Looking at the Lt Box level, you pay 165$ for 150$ worth of minis.

Sure, you get the freebies. You get the exclusive mini. You get the digital artbook.

Still, freebies are supposed to be free. I can't believe a digital artbook is that costly spread over that many backers and 4 months of delay (oh, waiting for the bank? Doodle away on digital artbook...)

So is there a premium added to our pledges for the honour of pledging? For full discolsure's sake, I was lucky and got an EB Commander, so I am "even" in the values stated and the price paid.

Isn't that $15 extra for the exclusive mini? Apologies if you included that in your math-fu.

I wonder if this will be the first Kickstarter to buck the 'last day rush' trend?

I doubt it, but at this point, who knows?

 BrookM wrote:
Isn't that $15 extra for the exclusive mini? Apologies if you included that in your math-fu.

Yeah, it's $30 Heroines + $60 Troops + $60 Support $15 KS Exclusive.

I'm sorry, I really thought they were trying to pack on the value and did not add it. Especially since, at this point, her squad does not exist. So we can't really use her in their game. (I'd assume she needs to lead a squad)

Hehe, that was also my beef with the Painter Box, which would be ideal for me, if I wasn't forced to put down an extra $15 for a mini I really don't like the look of.

LnR just surfaced in the comments on KS. Posting here for further visibility as it'll likely vanish into the history soon.

Loud'n Raging wrote: less than a minute ago

Hello dear backers and pledgers :-)
Yes, we are here! And we do value your feedback and comments!
We are indeed working on a thousand things at once :-)
We'd love to chat a bit more here in the comments section, and we'll try to check in more often.
We have indeed been preparing for this KS for many many months...
We do write long updates every day, sometimes more often.
We are currently working on the front page.
We are continually, even now, improving on the concept art to give you the best possible TGG armies we can, as well as outstanding Freebies!
And we are working on the 3D sculpts.
And we are test 3D-printing some minis, to make intelligent decisions on scale.
And we are also working on the banners and the advertising, now that Benoit can sit in a chair to do some images,
and writing new press releases,
discussing with suppliers,
scheduling production,
overseeing freelancers,
managing the regular business as well,
welcoming new retailers and new drop shippers,
and more...
So it is true that I try to come in when there is something new to say...
As for the concern about the slowing down of the campaign, you all know that most KS experience it at this point in time. But be confident that we are addressing it.
And as for the slowdown on the unlocking of minis, we feel the pain with you, and we will address it as needed as well...
I hope this is helping alleviate some of the concerns...

Hun. Not as much as I'd like. Point is, if no money is coming in, things won't get unlocked. At this pace, we might as well say we'll have 30 or 40K added to the current total.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Hun. Not as much as I'd like. Point is, if no money is coming in, things won't get unlocked.

What makes you so sure about that?

I'd love to see a few more future unlocks laid out instead of being spoon-fed of two or so now. I'd love to know when the rest of my stuff will get unlocked.

That's what I'm waiting on has well I would like to see the other mechs also the other army leaders being that the IE general is what brought me into the ks in the first place.

They are aware:

LnR wrote:And as for the slowdown on the unlocking of minis, we feel the pain with you, and we will address it as needed as well

Early bird Leiutenant (sp?) opening in a minute or two.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Early bird Leiutenant (sp?) opening in a minute or two.

Ta, assuming that was yours at $150, saved me $2 on my LT pledge.

Certainly was. I'm over Raging Heroes issues at this point. I'll see about some of the models when they are released at retail but honestly I can't support a company this unorganized.

I'll keep an eye on it just to see how it turns out, I like some of the models, but this one turned into a pass unless plastics get thrown in.

lol thanks prankster I did the same and moved up to 152 saving myself 2$ as well. even though 2$ does not make much difference in the long run.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I can't support a company this unorganized.

They really aren’t acting like a company that has done nothing but plan this out for 6 months, do they? I get that someone is ill and that is bad timing but there are still 2 other people that could be doing something for the campaign. The scale and sizing issues also make you wonder.

As you folks know from my blog posts about my new Adepticon army for 2014, I am doing the combined IG/SOB thing.

Here is a side by side with a few of my Kurganovas and a recently painted Sister:

http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/as-i-was-working-on-some-other-stuff.html

Front Page changed a little bit:

 keltikhoa wrote:
lol thanks prankster I did the same and moved up to 152 saving myself 2$ as well. even though 2$ does not make much difference in the long run.

Yeah, $2 isn't that much really, but no reason not to take the saving when it's there. Though it's actually my second pledge, grabbed the $152 LT the other day. Figured I'd be pledging that much extra on top of the $230 EB commander that it was worth $20 shipping for a second set of freebies. Just have to hope that RH pull it out of the bag and get everything I'm interested in unlocked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WolfStark wrote:
Front Page changed a little bit:

That makes things a little clearer, especially with regards to the bonus stuff for commander and above. Though the RRP figures seem unneeded, especially as the RRP value of the pledge is going to vary depending on what you actually take. It'd be nice to see what they're basing this off, as whilst it'd possibly be $10 heroines it doesn't quite work when you throw the KS exclusive in there.

We've unlocked the fifth free upgrade, i.e. extra bits like heads and arms for the Kurganova and IE heavy trooper boxes:

On the subject of updating the front page, anyone else notice that the Troopers image has been updated. I'm sure it used to list the RRP for the JB troopers/command as $18 rather than $20

Though I can't find an older image to be sure.

Silly Dakka autocorrecting my original domain...

prankster wrote:
On the subject of updating the front page, anyone else notice that the Troopers image has been updated. I'm sure it used to list the RRP for the JB troopers/command as $18 rather than $20

I vaguely remember this, too. But I haven't looked in a while so I might be misremembering.

It may well be that upgrading the boxes means adding more stuff to the retail product too

so they need to push up the MRSP to keep their margins

Yeah, I can see why they may increase the RRP, its just odd that the JB boxes are currently more than the others but have the same extras.

Hmm, maybe it's just me but the $40 pledge now also shows that you'll get the exclusive mini, but you don't have to pay for it. What-what?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm guessing a copy-pasta feth up.

prankster wrote:
On the subject of updating the front page, anyone else notice that the Troopers image has been updated. I'm sure it used to list the RRP for the JB troopers/command as $18 rather than $20

Spoiler:

Though I can't find an older image to be sure.

Silly Dakka autocorrecting my original domain...

There was no change, they were always more expensive than the other troop boxes. I found an image from the 4th of June:

 Minx wrote:

prankster wrote:
On the subject of updating the front page, anyone else notice that the Troopers image has been updated. I'm sure it used to list the RRP for the JB troopers/command as $18 rather than $20

Spoiler:

Though I can't find an older image to be sure.

Silly Dakka autocorrecting my original domain...

There was no change, they were always more expensive than the other troop boxes. I found an image from the 4th of June:

Spoiler:

Ah, I am going crazy then, just had them down at $18 RRP in excel for calculations. Thanks for clearing that up

Project Update #19: HOW GOOD A DEAL IS THE TGG KICKSTARTER?
Posted by Loud'n Raging
Hello dear backers and pledgers :-)

Some of you have been wondering what we've been up to, so here's a mixed back of what's keeping us busy right now:

Well, we are indeed working on a thousand things at once :-)
We write long updates every day, sometimes more often.
We have just updated the front page (see below)
We are continually, even now, improving on the concept art to give you the best possible TGG armies we can, as well as outstanding Freebies!
We are working on the 3D sculpts.
We are test 3D-printing some minis, to make intelligent decisions on scale.
We are also working on banners and advertising, now that Benoit can sit in a chair to do some images,
We are also writing new press releases, discussing with suppliers, scheduling production, overseeing freelancers, managing the regular business as well, welcoming new retailers and new drop shippers, and more...

As for the concern about the slowing down of the campaign, you all know that most KS experience it at this point in time. But be confident that we are addressing it.
As for the slowdown on the unlocking of minis, we feel the pain with you, and we will address it as needed as well...

How good a deal is the TGG Kickstarter?
We're just done updating the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy front page.
We hope that things will be easier to understand this way.
If you have any comments or suggestions (or kudos!), please share them with us in the comments section.

The key point to note is the level of discount built in each pledge, BEFORE the Freebies and Free Upgrades are even applied. You will note that most of the pledges are discounted over 35%! See image here.

Pledge - Est. Retail Value - (How much is available to spend on minis)
Rookie $10 - Est. retail: $14 - ($0)
Private $15 - Est. retail: $30 - ($15)
First Class Box $40 - Est. retail: $80 - ($40)
Painter Box $95 - Est. retail: $164 - ($80)
Cadet Box $95 - Est. retail: $151 - ($80)
Lieutenant Box $165 - Est. retail: $253 - ($150)
Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)
Captain Box $365 - Est. retail: $584 - ($370)
Major Box $495 - Est. retail: $789 - ($510)
Colonel Box $745 - Est. retail: $1 205 - ($790)
General Box $995 - Est. retail: $1 609 - ($1 070)

Again, this is BEFORE the FREEBIES...

Stretch goals

You've just unlocked the FREE UPGRADE #5 on the Heavy Troopers for the Kruganova Shock Troops and the Iron Empire.

The next one is at $420,000, the Box of 3 Kurganova Snipers.

Upcoming unlocks will be in the next Update! Stay tuned!

Anyone else feel that it’s a bit misleading to cherry pick in order to advertise the highest possible discount?

For instance, if I wanted 8 boxes of Iron Empire Troops, 1 Command box, and a Heavy Weapons box, my total comes to $183.50 retail pricing on a LT pledge of $165, or a 10.08% discount before shipping is factored.

If I decide I want heavy Troops, 6 boxes of Heavy Infantry, 1 Command box, and 1 misc hero for a retail pledge of $181. Or an 8.8% discount before shipping.

Vhalan wrote:
Anyone else feel that it’s a bit misleading to cherry pick in order to advertise the highest possible discount?

They could have used "xy saves you up to z" although that might look too complicated in the pledge level graphics. All the numbers are there anyway and had been there from the beginning (and apparently confused some people even in this thread).

All they needed to add was the phrase *maximum possible saving.

Yeah, main reason I dropped is single models aren't really for me. If I wanted this it would be for an army project and the savings just aren't there for that to be worthwhile a year in advance. And since even The Warstore sells at 10% off (currently at least) it's a wash if you're not super excited about the freebies, which I haven't been so far.

And yeah, they should have put maximum savings on the KS Update.

The savings of going up a pledge-level is still not good enough for people to pledge with multiple accounts to get more freebies.

The frontpage needs a vast redesign.

(Cross Posting from the comments)

I'm utterly at a loss as to how these numbers were derived.

To break it down to an understandable level, take"Lieutenant Box $165 - Est. retail: $253 - ($150)"

What would you have to spend your $150 on that would be equal to $253 at retail?

For example, suppose one bought a mech ($30), 2 Heavy Trooper Boxes ($40), 2 Trooper boxes ($30), a big hero ($20) and basic heroes ($30).

$150, and the savings?
$5 on the mech,
$7 on the Heavies ($3.50 each),
$6 on the troopers ($3 each),
$5 on the big hero and,
$19.50 on the 3 heroes ($6.50 each).

$42.50 in savings. Which beings the value to $192.50... a far cry from $253.

In fact, I'm not sure how you can get to $253. Even buying 15 $10 heroes (so 15x$16.50= $247.50) doesn't get you to $253. Seriously, where is that extra $5.50 coming from?

I decided to do the math for my pledging.

Retail $330 + S&H
KS: $235 + S&H

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I decided to do the math for my pledging.

Retail $330 + S&H
KS: $235 + S&H

What are you getting to accrue $95 in savings? Also, given that they claim "Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)" you're still rather short of their claimed values.

Well, going by their suggested pack (going for maximum difference) and adding leptic I think its 7,5$ less than their estimated for LT.

Lets see

Commander box
5x 10$ heroines 50$ ERP 82.50$ saves 32.50$
6x 15$ troops 90$ ERP 120 (JB) Saves 30$
6x 15$ support 90$ ERP 129 (artillery) Saves 39$
Leptic ERP 18$ Saves 18$
1 additional 10$ Heroine ERP 16.5$ Saves 16.50$

Cost 230 ERP 366 Saves 136

Leaves 23$ saves accounted for

If I go for maximum saves
23x 10$ heroines 230$ ERP 379.50$ Saves 149.50$
Leptic ERP 18$ Saves 18$
1 additional 10$ Heroine ERP 16.5$ Saves 16.50$
Cost 230$ ERP 414$ Saves 184$

If I do the above as is from last update
24x 10$ heroines 240$ ERP 396$ Saves 156$
Leptic ERP 18$ Saves 18$
Cost 240$ ERP 414$ Saves 174$

I clearly cannot see where the 389 comes from...

What's bizarre is they haven't even consistently oversold things: the math on the Commander pledge level puts the savings under the maximum. $240, 24 $10 heroes ($16.50 MSRP) is $396, they only claim a value of $389.

What?

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
All they needed to add was the phrase *maximum possible saving.

Are they using the original makeups of the pledge levels (ie 4 characters, 2 troops, 1 support, 1 ice-cream, etc) or are they now all basing the savings on buying as many $10 ($15rrp) characters as possible?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, I see they're basing the numbers on Numberwang.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And since even The Warstore sells at 10% off (currently at least) it's a wash if you're not super excited about the freebies

It's cheaper(*) to buy directly from RH (disregarding the shipping costs), so i have no idea how the "10% off" works in this case

(*) I checked Ivanka and her sisters and the limited Kurganova box. Possible reason could be different currency exchange rates as the RH shop uses Euro and offers estimates for other currencies.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I decided to do the math for my pledging.

Retail $330 + S&H
KS: $235 + S&H

What are you getting to accrue $95 in savings? Also, given that they claim "Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)" you're still rather short of their claimed values.

My math's a little rough because I used whole numbers, so heroines were just put down as $15 for example. ($10 Heroines that is)
but I'm getting the following:
6x $10 Heroines (one of these is the "free" heroine at the Commander level)
1x $20 Heroine
4x Grunts
2x Grunt CS
1x Heavy Grunt CS
2x Heavy Grunts
1x Sniper team

With freebies that gives me 62 odd models, all of which I can paint and enjoy for their own merits, two of which are good add ons for my army itself. (Kahno and Svetlana) I do intend to paint the rest for various stuff. How could I leave a model with the nickname "Chain Breaker" in the bits box?

Edit: For the record I have a EB Commander box at $230

To be fair, some of these are far better values at the EB range.

Doing the math....

My level is 230 EB Commander, which, with shipping and to pay for my OLD list, is at 283$

I am getting 5 10$ minis there is my 50$ allotment

I am getting the Jb trooper and command, lulus, and kurganova heavy command from my troopers, which is 70$. Throw Necro Priestess' cost here, so 90$ worth of stuff. (Full allotment met)

My support = JB Mecha, JB Sniper, JB Bike, JB Artillery, JB bike 2/3, and that makes 90$ (Full allotment met.)

That leaves me with 2 15$ minis (cruz and baba,) I will be purchasing. So that makes it 260 + 23 shipping = 283$

So, going by alotments...

Retail: Heroine allotment - 82.50
Trooper allotment - 113.50
Support Allotment - 118
Additionals - 36
Shipping - 23 (for constant)

373.00$ At retail. (The EB level keeps the 10$ mini and the 15$ exclusive as truly free, so it has to remain constant versus the retail.)

283 v 373. Great Savings, but this is assuming we unlock 8 different pieces parts.

(Yoko, Snow Ivanka, Mortoria, Baba, JB Bikesx2, JB Snipers, and Lulus.)

If someone wants to double check my math, please do! My brain is fried now.

Edit: You can't add the 10$ mini as part of the actual retail value of the box, as to be fair to the math, you have to keep all constants constant. So we can't include the KS excvlusive, or our 10$ heroine. Otherwise your math is wrong, even with rounding. It is especially wrong, because retail is 16.50, so you would round up to 17, which inflates the math heavily.

If you include the 10$ heroine, and the 15$ exclusive... Or 34.50$ extra retail value. Or would push at least my pledge over to 407.50$

This is more or less what I was planning on getting:

2 10$ heroines
2 15$ heroines
7 Kurganova Troops
2 Kurganova Heavies
3 Kurganova Artilleries

Total KS is 240$, MSRP is 306,50$ I get roughly 22% off, shipping I figure is a wash. Not bad by any stretch, as I don't have easy access to a stockist in my country that does a significant discount. One FLGS even sells above MSRP because, well, why not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But all in all, I guess an update is what the community was waiting for. Pledges jumped 3K since I left this morning.

@somehow you realize you don't have to stay with the 'allotments' for heroines/supports/troops right?

The swap update removed that arbitrary separation in your 'funds'

I mean if you want what you want its fine. I'm also sticking with a basically what I was going for pre swap update.


150 EB Lt

3 JB Cmnd
1 JB reg
And some assortment of bikes/Arty/mecha
And an undetermined combo of Nepharya, Bernadette, Yoko, Mimi, or Parker.

Oh, I know HDS, which was why the Necropriestess' "funding" came from the Trooper section, since I am not going to grab the average heavy troopers right now, leaving a 20$ "slot" open.

And this is all based on my old list of what I wanted to buy. Currently, if the snipers are as bad as the Kurganovas' one, I will have space to get one of my 15$ minis from them, and allows me to cut my pledge even further and keep it closer to the original 253$ mark.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I decided to do the math for my pledging.

Retail $330 + S&H
KS: $235 + S&H

What are you getting to accrue $95 in savings? Also, given that they claim "Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)" you're still rather short of their claimed values.

My math's a little rough because I used whole numbers, so heroines were just put down as $15 for example. ($10 Heroines that is)
but I'm getting the following:
6x $10 Heroines (one of these is the "free" heroine at the Commander level) [$39]
1x $20 Heroine [$5]
4x Grunts [$20]
2x Grunt CS [$10]
1x Heavy Grunt CS [$5]
2x Heavy Grunts [$10]
1x Sniper team [$6.50]

With freebies that gives me 62 odd models, all of which I can paint and enjoy for their own merits, two of which are good add ons for my army itself. (Kahno and Svetlana) I do intend to paint the rest for various stuff. How could I leave a model with the nickname "Chain Breaker" in the bits box?

Edit: For the record I have a EB Commander box at $230

Yup, $95.50 in "savings", of which 40% is from the $10 heroes.

See, ultimately the problem with posting tendentious math like they have (actually tendentious numbers, they didn't present their math) is that a non-trivial number of their offerings are actually (when adjusted for actuarial cost) are actually more expensive if bought ahead of time.

It boggles my mind that they thought that presenting these acontextual numbers was valuable.