A bit of petty, yes. Although I do think some important questions have been asked. But, honestly, I believe that we are getting lovely looking miniatures for a very fair price, when they become available, at a not insignificant discount to planned retail price. I'm alright with this.
Jimsolo wrote: I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.
I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.
So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before
Jimsolo wrote: I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.
I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.
So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before
In the past, they did both and you could choose. Don't know about now.
Oh, and regarding the pricing issues - I have a feeling that this is a boutique company, i.e they will price their models as more expensive than the competition because of the aesthetic and the perceived elite status that comes with having the minis. That's why their prices are higher than those of Skirmish games.
Jimsolo wrote: I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.
I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.
So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before
As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.
working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice
Jimsolo wrote: I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.
I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.
So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before
As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.
Thats a shame ( don't worry only a personal gripe ) I saw some conversion potential in a couple of the heroes and metal is a pain in the arse to alter and cut.
Buzzsaw wrote: The "discount" on the pledges is profoundly misleading, bordering on violating some real ethical rules.
The thing is everything is very transparent unlike a lot of other kickstarters (if we neglect math errors and a price correction on some troops boxes). The numbers were there from day one and everyone could calculate his individual savings. I wouldn't classify that as unethical at all (rather the opposite).
As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.
Have RH done any spin cast resin before? can they show any examples?
I don't believe they have, Vic. This is their first foray into spin cast resin, though I do believe their plan is to work with an established caster to produce them.
somewheresomehow wrote: Azazelx, they finally put in the cost for the "free upgrades" to the 15 dollar troop boxes, since those hadn't been factored in (originally.)
So they bumped the prices of the troop boxes? For the KS or the RRP?
It seems counter-productive in terms of customer relations (or, to put it another way, a stupid PR move) to increase the RRP to take into consideration stuff that was pretty much a given to be included.
Not quite. Some of the points are fairly legitimate, and there's some good conversation in here about the KS in general.
But there's quite a bit of the petty floating about too.
What can I say? That mix is a part of Dakka. Welcome to every single Kickstarter thread. If people want bunnies and sunshine and naught but positive and/or sycophantic comments, this is the wrong forum for you. If someone doesn't like this thread, stay the hell away from any thread with "GW" in the title.
rayphoton wrote: working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice
I would say more or less the same price for non-heroes, and definitley less for heroes.
For non-heroes:
RH 3(regular)-4(heavy)$ in KS
RH 4,3(regular)-5(heavy)$ for RRP
GW goes from 2,9 $ for a cadian (troop), 3,7 $ for a SM (troop), 3,95$ for a storm trooper (elite), 6,6$ for DE Wrack (elite), to 10$ for a Wraithguard (elite)
that just comparing dollars...if you normalize looking at the quality...
rayphoton wrote: working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice
I would say more or less the same price for non-heroes, and less for heroes.
For non-heroes:
RH 3(regular)-4(heavy)$ in KS
RH 4,3(regular)-5(heavy)$ for RRP
GW goes from 2,9 $ for a cadian (troop), 3,7 $ for a SM (troop), 3,95$ for a storm trooper (elite), 6,6$ for DE Wrack (elite), to 10$ for a Wraithguard (elite)
My box of 5 striking scorpions was 35,,,same for my reapers. I haven't priced cadians or sm in a long time as i have all that i need but ...eldar sure ain't cheap
Also I'm expecting my RH minis to look much better and provide more pose alternatives than the cadians did. I hope
finally my prices do include the free minis who lower the over all average of everything. I'm sort of doing a how much does everything put together and average how much each mini comes out as.
MSRP without freebies......i don't even want to consider the cost
rayphoton wrote: I'm sort of doing a how much does everything put together and average how much each mini comes out as.
Yeh, that's kinda what I do. Right now my plan is $175 for 35 (high quality) minis + whatever freebies. Not including postage, it's $5 a model (less if you include the freebies). I'm absolutely alright with this deal.
Crunching numbers can be fun, and it has been interesting to read your findings guys. But I think at the end of the campaign, all you can do is decide what models you'd like, add up the total cost and think "does this represent decent value, and am I happy to spend this much money on this much stuff?". The math work is all great but really at the end it'll be a personal, individual decision for each of us to make based on our own differing perceptions of value for money.
And also when we think about value, we have to consider less quantitative factors. Someone who loves these minis (or art) and has been waiting years for something like this to come along, is going to place a higher value, and is going to willing to pay more than someone who kinda likes, wouldn't mind a couple of these little bits of resin/metal. I mean that sometimes there is a difference between cost and value, you know?
I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.
Would one of the Heralds mind asking the RH crew for some firmer details on the Shipping schedule and how it's planned to work? I realise there's a lot of figures yet to be unlocked that need to be factored in, but they need to start giving us info on this before the end date gets too close.
Azazelx wrote: I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.
This is true also.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lots of factors to consider when the time comes, not just $cost, as you say.
Buzzsaw wrote: The "discount" on the pledges is profoundly misleading, bordering on violating some real ethical rules.
The thing is everything is very transparent unlike a lot of other kickstarters (if we neglect math errors and a price correction on some troops boxes). The numbers were there from day one and everyone could calculate his individual savings. I wouldn't classify that as unethical at all (rather the opposite).
Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored, hehe). It is important also to be able to discern the difference between the campaign as a whole and the individual statements within it. Yesterday's "HOW GOOD A DEAL IS THE TGG KICKSTARTER?" purports to provide exact discount amounts for pledge levels that are highly variable, and presents the best case scenario rather then a range.
Quite simply put, as everyone seems to recognize, the "Retail Value" number given in that chart are only true with a very specific pattern of buying, and in fact the value fluctuates wildly.
Let's take just a small example (as I have to be afk very soon);
First Class Box; $40, Retail value $80, Pick $40 worth of TGG Miniatures and also receive the TGG Digital Art Book.
Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.
Sooo.... yeah. Of course, as we've seen, the values on their chart are only true with very specific load-outs, and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).
If they are trying to be absolute (rather then misleading) why are their statements of value so absolute?
How good a deal is the TGG Kickstarter?
We're just done updating the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy front page.
We hope that things will be easier to understand this way.
If you have any comments or suggestions (or kudos!), please share them with us in the comments section.
The key point to note is the level of discount built in each pledge, BEFORE the Freebies and Free Upgrades are even applied. You will note that most of the pledges are discounted over 35%! See image here.
Pledge - Est. Retail Value - (How much is available to spend on minis)
Rookie $10 - Est. retail: $14 - ($0)
Private $15 - Est. retail: $30 - ($15)
First Class Box $40 - Est. retail: $80 - ($40)
Painter Box $95 - Est. retail: $164 - ($80)
Cadet Box $95 - Est. retail: $151 - ($80)
Lieutenant Box $165 - Est. retail: $253 - ($150)
Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)
Captain Box $365 - Est. retail: $584 - ($370)
Major Box $495 - Est. retail: $789 - ($510)
Colonel Box $745 - Est. retail: $1 205 - ($790)
General Box $995 - Est. retail: $1 609 - ($1 070)
Buzzsaw wrote: Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.
The Heavy trooper boxes are about the worst ‘deal’ and eliminates all 'savings' by pledging for them.
Herald’s, since RH want to make everything mix and match, can we have a suggestion made to dump the ‘digital art book’ and reallocated that 14$ back into the mix? That the ‘free’ art book has an attached value as part of the pledge packages is a tad surprising to me. Since we are doing all al a cart pledge levels now, I’d like to option to opt out of it.
The pricing of pledges and structure has now been through several iterations. Starting with a very big change up forced by KS itself pre campaign. I'd wager the RRP is based on the pre swap allotments. Because then you were very limited in possible selection.
A lot of this is like running a sentence through Google translate a couple times then argueing over comma placement.
Azazelx wrote: I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.
Would one of the Heralds mind asking the RH crew for some firmer details on the Shipping schedule and how it's planned to work? I realise there's a lot of figures yet to be unlocked that need to be factored in, but they need to start giving us info on this before the end date gets too close.
True, but it's not like I have a hankering to give it to GW in the meantime...
Another way to see it is pre-emptive spending that protects one's wallet from depredations on GW's part.
I'm extremely curious to see what will happen in the last few hours. Edge of your seat kinda thing. It's a good thing I'll be off that morning to follow the play by play.
Buzzsaw wrote: Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.
The Heavy trooper boxes are about the worst ‘deal’ and eliminates all 'savings' by pledging for them.
Herald’s, since RH want to make everything mix and match, can we have a suggestion made to dump the ‘digital art book’ and reallocated that 14$ back into the mix? That the ‘free’ art book has an attached value as part of the pledge packages is a tad surprising to me. Since we are doing all al a cart pledge levels now, I’d like to option to opt out of it.
Personally, I'd also like to opt out of the KS exclusive model in favor of a different $15 character or squad. At least for me, as long as the KSnipers get unlocked, I have everything I need in the LT set for my plans to use the models.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Personally, I'd also like to opt out of the KS exclusive model in favor of a different $15 character or squad.
It does make more sense to completely remove the mandatory pics and make it 100% value selections. Course they would have to update the graphics one more time with more 'New Math'. That could be bad as suddenly the Art book isnt 'worth' 14$ anymore and the KS exclusive mini becomes a 10$ selection
Buzzsaw wrote: Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).
All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.
Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.
Buzzsaw wrote: Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).
All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.
Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.
Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?
That seems as transparent as anything else they did there.
And again, there is a difference between a statement being deceptive and the entire campaign being so. That "the numbers are all there" is not an excuse for making statements of claims that are clearly misleading.
Buzzsaw wrote: Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).
All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.
Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.
Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?.
All the heros on 15$KS price have the same retail value: 18$.
Minx wrote: Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.
Lets examine the text of the pledge:
RagingHeros Lt Pledge wrote:
3 $10 Heroines (or $30 worth of Heroines) + 4 $15 Troops (or $60 worth of Troops) + 4 $15 Supports (or $60 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + the TGG Digital Artbook.
Pledge is 165, there is 150 in value. X = 15. It was easy to divine that the KS exclusive model had a $ value and was part of my pledge. This is different from other KS but whatever. It’s a mini, fits in the 15$ selection, and has a value. Ok great.
Why on early would I consider a Digital Art book (that I would guess would be a mix of house shots of WIP models and concept art that is already posted on the web) to have a value AND be part of the % discount that they like to make a point of bringing up every time someone questions the value of the pledge levels?
How is that transparent? Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.
The 3D prints just came in, we'll be snapping images and sharing them very soon, probably tomorrow. Also, we have the concept art for the Iron empire mascot coming up later tonight!
Someone want to start the timer for the next update?
Minx wrote: Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.
Lets examine the text of the pledge:
RagingHeros Lt Pledge wrote:
3 $10 Heroines (or $30 worth of Heroines) + 4 $15 Troops (or $60 worth of Troops) + 4 $15 Supports (or $60 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + the TGG Digital Artbook.
Pledge is 165, there is 150 in value. X = 15. It was easy to divine that the KS exclusive model had a $ value and was part of my pledge. This is different from other KS but whatever. It’s a mini, fits in the 15$ selection, and has a value. Ok great.
Why on early would I consider a Digital Art book (that I would guess would be a mix of house shots of WIP models and concept art that is already posted on the web) to have a value AND be part of the % discount that they like to make a point of bringing up every time someone questions the value of the pledge levels?
How is that transparent? Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.
Pledge $10 or more
58 backers
ROOKIE - Our most sincere thanks + a lavishly designed digital artbook featuring the art of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy (Retail value $14). Designed as a real Digital coffee table book, it will include all the TGG concept art, many unreleased sketches, stories and background, embedded videos of concert art drawing and 3D sculpting, and more... A very special treat if you like the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy!
the KSS price of Drusilla Lepic is 15$ each. is clearly stated. you can buy many of them...at 15$ each of course
Sergio Tulkas wrote: ROOKIE - Our most sincere thanks + a lavishly designed digital artbook featuring the art of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy (Retail value $14). Designed as a real Digital coffee table book, it will include all the TGG concept art, many unreleased sketches, stories and background, embedded videos of concert art drawing and 3D sculpting, and more... A very special treat if you like the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy!
Good catch, I missed that. The thanks for supporting us level wasnt one I read completly. Since value was always there, then lets make this a la cart, let me drop the art book, toss 1$ more in for a box of Troops, and call it a day.
Vhalan wrote: Show me anywhere prior to that discount breakdown they posted that the DIGITAL Art book had an attached value to it. I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.
Is that also true for other digital products? You are living in a strange but beautiful world
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buzzsaw wrote: Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?
There are at least two ways to do it: set the value to an arbitrary but high value or use their common value for a comparable miniature. One of those ways is just stupid and they chose the other.
Vhalan wrote: I expect to pay for printed Art books. I expect those to have a value since it requires resources to put the images on paper and ship them to me. A digital art book, not so much.
So the creation of the art in the first place, whether it is a digital file or printed on paper, has no intrinsic value? Just the materials it is printed on?
MajorWesJanson wrote: So the creation of the art in the first place, whether it is a digital file or printed on paper, has no intrinsic value? Just the materials it is printed on?
In the context of a KS, where its treated as a value add, yes I would argue it intrinsic value is limited. Where it posted to Drive Through or the webstore of RH, thats a different value context.
Ive been shown that it has had value attached since the beginning, now Id like the option to trade that value to something else. Reallocating that 'value' changes the equation for me and would make this KS favorable when it has been sitting at marginal.
Couldn't give a monkeys if the discount is 5% or 25% or 40% for a particular set of choices - it's boring frankly. Do the miniatures represent something interesting to get my hands on? Yes Am I prepared to wait? Yes Do I think I will get good value for money (superb miniatures at the right price)? Yes. If the answer is no then don't pledge.
By all means continue to give constructive criticism of the kickstarter, miniatures, whatever you fancy, it's your time (and it amused me for a page or two).
When people are discussing value, why are they seeming to ignore the freebies for the most part (that's a pretty big value in virtual savings/value)? Having these as paid add-ons might up some pledges too (if they haven't already).
It's really looking like they may have tapped out the potential in the markets they have awareness in. I know it's a small team, but are they relying on current backers to make this thing spread? Or do they have some magical marketing plan?
I do not have a particular issue with the basic troops price adjustment, 18$ and 20$ RRP sounded too cheap especially the 18$ one, do I believe they hadn't noticed the error 10 days now? strangely, yes, I do, its their first one, it feels like it is their first one and I can leave many amateurish things slip by, because it is their first one, I would not allow such things from a bigger company or a company with a history in kickstarter, but from a 3 person studio, with no previous kickstarter under their belt? sure.
Now a small note on the digital artbook, while it does not cost them to print it, the manhours to make it a reality are the same so yes they can cost it, it does cost to be produced and yes they can sell it at a discount, even if it will not be for sale later on, because they can honestly cost it set a price they would sell it and then discount it.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....
You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....
You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.
For all of the negativity, some good has come out of it. Some of it comes dangerously close to repetitive noise, however.
At the risk of pointing to an uncomfortable truth, if one feels discussion of value, pricing and discount are pedantic, irrelevant or besides-the-point, such complaints would be more profitably presented to the campaign creators.
This discussion did not, pace objectors, arise organically from the ground: discussions of value and discount are happening because RH decided to spend the entirety of yesterday's update (save for 3 sentences, four if you count an interjection) on the topic of "HOW GOOD A DEAL IS THE TGG KICKSTARTER?" (all caps in original).
It was the campaign creators that decided to highlight some very questionable math (questionable enough that it necessitated a clarification comment almost as long as the update itself to explain their original point).
In all frankness it seems puzzling why they would even bring up the issue of discounts: it's easily the weakest aspect of the campaign from a consumer point of view, and their efforts to make it seem sweeter only serve to make them seem duplicitous or of questionable competency. Paying special attention to the added value items seems a far better use of update space, given their apparent inability to spare time for communication.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....
You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.
Without an imputation of snark, has there actually been a model shown? It was my impression that the very first pre-produciton models will be seen perhaps tomorrow.
Ecstasy in Service wrote: whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....
You are not alone. But the majority of posts here make an enthusiastic appreciation of the miniatures look like off topic. This thread makes a cross examination in a murder case look like a friendly chat.
I'm with you guys. As I said in an earlier post, I'm happy. Obviously wanting more unlocks, really need those IE snipers. But even if they don't appear, I can probably switch to the K's if I need to. Or just wait until general release, whatever. I'm not gonna get near to this project for a year anyway. And I'm more than happy with what I'll be getting for my money. And happy to wait, I've got spare cash now, might not in 12 months. And got plenty other stuff to get done between now and release. Content.
Let's try this again ('d posted in the wrong thread)
This bit from the KS comments sounds promising
Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago
The 3D prints just came in, we'll be snapping images and sharing them very soon, probably tomorrow. Also, we have the concept art for the Iron empire mascot coming up later tonight!
Does it change anyone else's calculus that Victoria Minis just showcased their WIP female IG stand-ins, and they fit the GW aesthetic perfectly? I don't want to go out on a limb, but the price will also be more reasonable and the miniatures will almost certainly arrive sooner,
The reason I bring this up is because 90% of my interest in this KS came from the fact that someone was finally making a range of futuristic female soldiers. There were a lot of aspects of RH's Kickstarter and their model designs that made me uncomfortable dropping the vaultful of money needed to get a decent sized force from them. Now that options are appearing, I find my enthusiasm flagging. I will still buy some of the heroes and heavies (and the baby hippo!) when they hit retail, but I've just found a use for that money right now (well, soonish) that might otherwise have been tied up in this Kickstarter for years.
I apologise for the negativity, but I was curious who would find their pledges affected by the competition. Is this a real, unaddressed problem that might haunt a Kickstarter insisting on boutique+ pricing for a product that appeals mainly because of the perceived novelty? Ofr are there really hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of people who really just want oversculpted boutique soldiers?
It'll be interesting to see. But I think the type of people who want female guard mostly want them for aesthetic reasons, and there is a lot of style in these miniatures. Don't get me wrong, the Victoria ones are nice and, yes, they possibly will fit better for people who already have Cadian (or mordian) armies and are looking to add, but I just love the designs here. And ten model Victoria squads are currently $45, not exactly a cheaper alternative. But, yeh, you're right. It might have an effect. Hope not though.
I like the look of what Victoria Minis has shown and may well get some (and will also have a look at the jungle girls from Maximini although I don't like the weapons on the first two but they may get better)
but actually them being closer to the GW aesthetic makes them less attractive than the Raging Heroes stuff to me,
and while we might get these ones sooner I doubt Vic will produce the range of stuff shown in this KS (at least in the same time frame), she's got a whole bunch of other stuff to do to (including the really neat looking beastmen)
As to whether RH stuff will be oversculpted I'll wait to see the 3D prints (they've got some in hand today). I doubt it based on what they've done before. Their stuff does have it's own aesthetic and if they stick to that I'll be happy
I'll be getting both. With Vic coming onto the scene however, it is likely I will only get excess Iron Empire for Aura's traitor Krieg guard army, while I will take one of each of the JB's and Kurganovas, and then add a load of Vic's.
My Guard already is pretty mixed, with both armies having a cadian/catachan crossover and mixed models.
True, but it's not like I have a hankering to give it to GW in the meantime... Another way to see it is pre-emptive spending that protects one's wallet from depredations on GW's part.
I'm extremely curious to see what will happen in the last few hours. Edge of your seat kinda thing. It's a good thing I'll be off that morning to follow the play by play.
Even if you're doing the whole "I hate everything about GW" mantra, there's plenty of other stuff available right now that is available to purchase. At risk of "pledge-pull" self-parody, I'm now inclined to drop down or out at this stage, though I will wait until the last 24-48 hours to see if they can entice me to stay. Simply as I'm not seeing it as worthwhile use of $365, and the "added value" isn't all that great to me when all the other factors are taken into consideration, and their Numberwang maths is starting to annoy me. Perhaps I'll change to an EB Lieutenant if one opens up, which will still allow me to take most of the heroes I'm after (ie the $10 range).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does it change anyone else's calculus that Victoria Minis just showcased their WIP female IG stand-ins, and they fit the GW aesthetic perfectly? I don't want to go out on a limb, but the price will also be more reasonable and the miniatures will almost certainly arrive sooner,
The reason I bring this up is because 90% of my interest in this KS came from the fact that someone was finally making a range of futuristic female soldiers. There were a lot of aspects of RH's Kickstarter and their model designs that made me uncomfortable dropping the vaultful of money needed to get a decent sized force from them. Now that options are appearing, I find my enthusiasm flagging. I will still buy some of the heroes and heavies (and the baby hippo!) when they hit retail, but I've just found a use for that money right now (well, soonish) that might otherwise have been tied up in this Kickstarter for years.
I apologise for the negativity, but I was curious who would find their pledges affected by the competition. Is this a real, unaddressed problem that might haunt a Kickstarter insisting on boutique+ pricing for a product that appeals mainly because of the perceived novelty? Ofr are there really hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of people who really just want oversculpted boutique soldiers?
They're both ranges of female miniatures, but the aesthetics are very different. I don't see them as interchangable simply because they all have sculpted breasts. Speaking for myself again, I'm sure I can find a use for both types of figure. While I have some issues with the RH KS, none of them are with the aesthetics, and I'm not sure you could say that RH has gained $420k on the back of "novelty". It's much more largely based on their previous body of work, which includes things like Not-Witch Elves and Not Dark-Eldar and Not-Daemonettes, so I don't see Vic's female Tannenburger WIPs to be in direct competition with the Kurganovas or Iron Empire. What I do see, actually, is $300k pledged for female miniatures just coincidently happening just before Vic finally starts sculpting the female guard we've been asking her to sculpt for over a year. I'm not suggesting that Vic is trying to play spoiler, but that RH's 1st-day $300k might have been enough market research by proxy to finally spur Vic to take her own female troops out of the concept art stage where they have apparently been for some time, and into the beginnings of sculpture.
Which is good news for all of us.
The "Oversculpted boutique soldiers" is unnecessary. I get that you like Vic's work, but please don't go all raging fanboi for Vic while feeling a need to insult everything else. It's unbecoming.
Also, I've got no issue with you or anyone else finding other things to spend money on right now over Kickstarting your life away, but Vic has said that she hopes to have some females hopefully by the end of the year. That's still 6-odd months, which is not exactly "right now" and arguably "soonish". (I'd pay it as "soonish" in Kickstarter time, though! )
I wonder how it'll size with the dog they already sculpted?
I'm not in a "I hate GW mantra"... I just haven't been terribly excited by anything at all lately. I had my mind set on painting Dreamforge stuff this summer, and it's almost as if that "wind" is stil coming out of me. I'm not in the mood for starting something new, I want to finish what I've got in the works instead.
BTW, thanks for the Cat's image, my update just said that photobucket's image had been removed.
Didn't the last update mention the K Snipers unlocked, yet I'm still showing 419K?
The total when they updated put them at 420, now it is down below 420. Today has been a relative roller coster of funding for them. Since it started at 416 this early morning.
The lack of a truly comprehensive update is killing the momentum.
so I don't see Vic's female Tannenburger WIPs to be in direct competition with the Kurganovas or Iron Empire. What I do see, actually, is $300k pledged for female miniatures just coincidently happening just before Vic finally starts sculpting the female guard we've been asking her to sculpt for over a year. I'm not suggesting that Vic is trying to play spoiler, but that RH's 1st-day $300k might have been enough market research by proxy to finally spur Vic to take her own female troops out of the concept art stage where they have apparently been for some time, and into the beginnings of sculpture.
Feel I should say something here since I seem to be getting a lot of mentions on a thread which is not about Vic minis.
I don't intend my work to be in direct competition with RH, I wish them every success. Its all good for the hobby. My interpretation of how women are represented on the battlefield is very different from RH. Its a different product and I don't expect a great deal of overlap between the ranges.
I've had WIP females on my bench for a long, long time. It is a subject that has come up again and again in relation to my range either through forums, FB and through private emails and messages.
The requests have gotten far more frequent lately, and this is possibly because of the RH project bringing the subject into the spotlight.
My range is currently going through big changes as it moves forward into resin, so it seems like a good time to show what progress I've made with the female sculpts (not much yet) as it gives me an indication of what projects to prioritize.
I really appreciate the interest, but I think it might be better to keep mentions of Vic minis in the Vic Minis thread.
Cheers, V
I'm not in a "I hate GW mantra"... I just haven't been terribly excited by anything at all lately. I had my mind set on painting Dreamforge stuff this summer, and it's almost as if that "wind" is stil coming out of me. I'm not in the mood for starting something new, I want to finish what I've got in the works instead.
BTW, thanks for the Cat's image, my update just said that photobucket's image had been removed.
Didn't the last update mention the K Snipers unlocked, yet I'm still showing 419K?
It seems that shortly after the update went live at about 11:15PM EST the total dropped by about $1k. Oddly this is being put into today, (6/22) rather then 6/21 as would be appropriate (I was watching carefully, the change in pledges came not later then 11:40 PM).
According to their comments "Yes, about that: waist height to the heroines when sitting upright." Honestly, it seems impossible to imagine that the details on that figure could be reproduced with any kind of fidelity at that size...
Man, I'm like in withdraw, I want to know where the rest of my plastic if from Mark! (Referring to DFD, that is.)
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I wonder how it'll size with the dog they already sculpted?
I'm not in a "I hate GW mantra"... I just haven't been terribly excited by anything at all lately. I had my mind set on painting Dreamforge stuff this summer, and it's almost as if that "wind" is stil coming out of me. I'm not in the mood for starting something new, I want to finish what I've got in the works instead.
BTW, thanks for the Cat's image, my update just said that photobucket's image had been removed.
Didn't the last update mention the K Snipers unlocked, yet I'm still showing 419K?
Oh, I wasn't just (or even especially) talking about you for the "I hate GW" thing.
BTW, thanks for the Cat's image, my update just said that photobucket's image had been removed.
According to their comments "Yes, about that: waist height to the heroines when sitting upright." Honestly, it seems impossible to imagine that the details on that figure could be reproduced with any kind of fidelity at that size...
Man, I'm like in withdraw, I want to know where the rest of my plastic if from Mark! (Referring to DFD, that is.)
Assume Christmas (maybe) for Wave 2 and June 2014 for Wave 3 (maybe).
For RH. Show the renders that are (supposedly?) completed. Enough of being drip-fed concept art.
I'm going to give this until Victoria Miniatures releases the new penal commander head set. If they fail to impress me by then, I'm pulling out and converting my own inquisitional henchmen.
I'm trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible but I do have a question I'd like clarified:
If I only want Heroines and don't care about the troops and support units, can I get a Lieutenant level pledge and just use all the available funds within that pledge to get Heroines?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible but I do have a question I'd like clarified:
If I only want Heroines and don't care about the troops and support units, can I get a Lieutenant level pledge and just use all the available funds within that pledge to get Heroines?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm trying to stay out of this thread as much as possible but I do have a question I'd like clarified:
If I only want Heroines and don't care about the troops and support units, can I get a Lieutenant level pledge and just use all the available funds within that pledge to get Heroines?
Yes.
Except that the KS-exclusive figure seems to be locked in as a choice, and I'm not sure how the "Value" of the digital art book fits in. The "$x worth of heroines, $y worth of troops and $z worth of support" are now just dollar-value numbers that can be added together and used for that many dollars worth of whatever in whatever mix you like. (Hence the grousing at their recent "look at the savings" posts, which are kinda meaningless in the context of mix-and-match monies).
The "Oversculpted boutique soldiers" is unnecessary. I get that you like Vic's work, but please don't go all raging fanboi for Vic while feeling a need to insult everything else. It's unbecoming.
I was actually trying to dig at the people claiming these sculpts could never be reproduced in plastic because of all the amazing and impossible details that reject the very notion of plastic. I quite like the actual renders, especially of the unaltered 28mm Kurganova Heavies, although I did laugh at the fact that people had to photoshop the breasts to look smaller. I would feel a lot better about buying their sculpts in bulk if I didn't feel like I was supporting a slightly-less-obnoxious Brother Vinnie.
I have never bought any of Vic's minis and generally find most of her work to be overpriced for what it is, although I admit I am not a member of her target demographic...or wasn't. For me, her new sculpts scratch exactly the same itch as the Raging Heroes minis I care about--badass soldiers who happen to be women--but without the guilt of supporting a cheesecake line indirectly. It's kind of like how I felt bad when I bought any Image Comics because a small portion of that money supported the existence of Rob Liefeld.
Also, I've got no issue with you or anyone else finding other things to spend money on right now over Kickstarting your life away, but Vic has said that she hopes to have some females hopefully by the end of the year. That's still 6-odd months, which is not exactly "right now" and arguably "soonish". (I'd pay it as "soonish" in Kickstarter time, though! )
I figured that "right now" in a Raging Heroes thread covered through Jan 2014. Also, I need a few months to recover from Robotech, et al., anyway.
EDIT: And that's another mascot that looks amazing. If they made a $15 or so pledge for just the mascots, I'd find this kickstarter a lot more enticing.
Except that the KS-exclusive figure seems to be locked in as a choice, and I'm not sure how the "Value" of the digital art book fits in. The "$x worth of heroines, $y worth of troops and $z worth of support" are now just dollar-value numbers that can be added together and used for that many dollars worth of whatever in whatever mix you like. (Hence the grousing at their recent "look at the savings" posts, which are kinda meaningless in the context of mix-and-match monies).
Ok thanks. That makes sense. So if my (hypothetical) $150 contained 3 Heroines, 6 Troops and 2 Support I could ignore that and just get 15 $10 heroines, for example.
Love the cat thing (never understood the bits of hate towards the kurganovas snipers either). Would make for a good Dark Mechanicus mascot. I'll definitely buy some vic females (and males), because they the variety of options being presented is huge, I've just been waiting for the right material. In the same way I would love to see all the RH miniatures in hard plastic (or at the very least proper resin - thinking of Mierce Miniatures), because I will be converting them and converting metal tends to leave me with sliced up thumbs!
Well, given the length of time they took to post Update #20 I find it somewhat underwhelming in content. Whilst there's nothing overly outstanding about Jinx, imho, I don't think an entire update pretty much devoted to one freebie SG is the right way to go at the moment.
I feel that we needed a bigger update, one that at least mentioned the fact that they've got 3d prints in hand and are working on some photos. An update that gave us more stretch goals to look forwards to, gave the next few days some structure up to the $450k/$500k mark to try and get some of the momentum back. Whereas the little snippet at the bottom of the update about another update on Sunday with SGs just feels tacked on as an afterthought. Though I guess with the way things are going, we're unlikely to need more SGs before then, especially after the drop in pledge figures following the update.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, looks like not everyone is happy with the current status of the KS. There's currently both an EB$352 Captain and an EB$487Major available.
I really appreciate the interest, but I think it might be better to keep mentions of Vic minis in the Vic Minis thread.
Cheers, V
Aye, even though I was also guilty of this on the previous page I'm going to have to agree, so from now on if we can keep comments on Vic's stuff in her thread, it would be much appreciated. Channelling the spirit of rule two into the thread.
I am expecting update 20 to be a stop gap and update 21 showing actual 3D prints and maybe other work, I quite like the giant Sphinx cat, was hoping for a female one, but with so many piercings there is no way I will paint it like mine, so ok male.
The way this swings the last few days is amazing now it is at 42,5K it jumped 1k in 5 minutes?
Aye, its certainly stalled the past few days, and lack of updates seems to be a major contributing factor.
I understand why they are going the path they are going, but I do think at this point biting the bullet and checking in a few quick big stretch goals every five thou for about $25K would help tremendously.
I also think they want to get the range unlocked first, give folks a reason to spend more money, then space out larger gaps between free goals, or totally new models they are adding on top.
Mantic did well with Deadzone by adding things later on that it seemed they had maybe rolled off a thought on, but until the success of the kickstarter exploded wouldn't have even thought of adding. Reaper was similar adding more lines after lines as it ballooned
Obviously I agree with the statement they don't want to get caught out by shipping etc, but I still think they would do a lot more with this kickstarter, if they just unlocked everything tomorrow.. and then started adding new unexpected units or other things at much larger stretch goals to cover the costs.
Right now it seems a lot of people are getting cold feet because they are not so certain everything can be unlocked in time, and if RH can handle the madness of updates on the last day.
I am just sitting on my EB Commander 230 pledge simply in hopes that I get the ones I really want, even my most conservative goals require 8 minis we don't have unlocked get unlocked... and that is 80k worth of stretch goals.
Well, they promised that they'd show us the next few stretch goals now, but they are stretching that out with a freebie preview and the promise to show off the next stretch goals that were supposed to go up today, tomorrow. Yay..
I also think they want to get the range unlocked first, give folks a reason to spend more money, then space out larger gaps between free goals, or totally new models they are adding on top.
....but I still think they would do a lot more with this kickstarter, if they just unlocked everything tomorrow.. and then started adding new unexpected units or other things at much larger stretch goals to cover the costs.
Right now it seems a lot of people are getting cold feet because they are not so certain everything can be unlocked in time, and if RH can handle the madness of updates on the last day.
Yeh, I think this would work. They wouldn't even have to unlock everything. Say they just unlocked all the troops, all the support, and the 3 commanders in one go. This would allow the people building armies to really confidently stay in because they know they'll be able to get the bulk of their force. They could then just leave the mechas and remaining heroines to be unlocked over time. I think it would stop a lot of the people who are sitting on the fence from pulling out because they can't build an army from the faction they want. Right now all the unlocks are spread over the 3 factions leaving none of them fully complimented.
Well they promised Jinx later that day and the sculpts/ prints tomorrow, they still can do that with an update later today, although I expected this to happen on Sunday.
Buzzsaw wrote: According to their comments "Yes, about that: waist height to the heroines when sitting upright." Honestly, it seems impossible to imagine that the details on that figure could be reproduced with any kind of fidelity at that size...
Judging from the similar sized "Walter, the Renaissance dog" that is part of the limited Königsmark sister box they won't have a problem transferring the concept into a worthwhile miniature.
I have confidence they will keep the spirit of the feline intact, and it would be an interesting, and awesome mini. That is about all I can really say about it. I want to see their KS take on Walter.
Psychotic, you didn't get what he was inferring, which was, that they arbitrarily put up updates whenever they "reach a hidden stretch goal." Aka, something the company places upon the group, that has to be hit, before they will place an update.
I think it's more likely that they're overwhelmed right now, with all the things they mentioned they were working on in Update #19.
I don't think they're conspiring to hide to SGs until we fulfill secret goals or anything; what's likelier is, they couldn't stall the announcement of the next SG any longer now that the snipers were unlocked, so they put up a picture. Meanwhile, they had hoped to give us a big update with several SGs at once, but it's not ready yet (probably because their art director isn't feeling too well). I seem to remember them mentioning earlier that they're working day and night on new concept art to give us enough SGs until the end of the campaign. And I wouldn't be surprised if they're also busy working on 3D renders so they have something concrete to show us soon.
They've mentioned reading this forum, and I can just imagine how weird this thread must be for them: "We need more stretch goals!", "Where the hell are the 3D renders?", "But there aren't any real savings!", "Give us details about the game", "We want to know what ships when!", "They need to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to survive!" Um, seriously. I'm not saying none of those are reasonable requests, but you can obviously see that they get to be quite incompatible, and there's no way they can work out all the details about shipping and the game and such, and keep up with the work they absolutely need to do to get through this Kickstarter. Especially for a 3-person studio in France (I mention France because I also suspect there is a -slight- linguistic/cultural barrier that accounts for the "messy" aspect of the updates). And even if they're not directly reading this (which, admittedly, would also require a significant time commitment), the reports they're getting from heralds must be even more confusing.
Also, as a sidenote: people are hating on the Kurg snipers? I am seriously considering getting them, even though I'm all Iron Empire--they just look too cool!
See, I was totally hyped for the Kurg Snipers... and then the concept art arrived and I was a bit meh about all but the bottom right one, which was the one I was most looking forward to anyways. The others just.. killed it though.
Alyanumbers wrote: "They need to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to survive!" Um, seriously.
To be fair now, I never said they need to unlock everything "to survive" (and I deliberately didn't say everything). They're clearly surviving just fine. Just suggesting it as a possibility to think about in order to appease some of the more twitchy, nervous (but big money) backers and maintain their level/momentum. As I said a couple of times a page or two back, I'm pretty happy with how it's all going and where the KS sits at the moment.
Alyanumbers wrote: "They need to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to survive!" Um, seriously.
To be fair now, I never said they need to unlock everything "to survive" (and I deliberately didn't say everything). They're clearly surviving just fine. Just suggesting it as a possibility to think about in order to appease some of the more twitchy, nervous (but big money) backers and maintain their level/momentum. As I said a couple of times a page or two back, I'm pretty happy with how it's all going and where the KS sits at the moment.
Oh, I should have been clearer. I'm referring to what they're getting out of this thread, rather than what you're saying directly. Also, hyperbole. My bad. :/ But in any case, there's no way they can unlock a big batch at once, since they're very acutely aware of the need for more SGs.
They've mentioned reading this forum, and I can just imagine how weird this thread must be for them: "We need more stretch goals!", "Where the hell are the 3D renders?", "But there aren't any real savings!", "Give us details about the game", "We want to know what ships when!", "They need to UNLOCK EVERYTHING to survive!" Um, seriously. I'm not saying none of those are reasonable requests, but you can obviously see that they get to be quite incompatible, and there's no way they can work out all the details about shipping and the game and such, and keep up with the work they absolutely need to do to get through this Kickstarter. Especially for a 3-person studio in France (I mention France because I also suspect there is a -slight- linguistic/cultural barrier that accounts for the "messy" aspect of the updates). And even if they're not directly reading this (which, admittedly, would also require a significant time commitment), the reports they're getting from heralds must be even more confusing.
But.. let's break those down a little, shall we?
Firstly, I do think they're overwhelmed and stressed right now, and that's without Benoit's back injury a few days ago.
Now, my issue with most of these is that they claim to have been preparing for this Kickstarter for anywhere between 6-18 months depending on who you listen to. Given that this was initially supposed to launch in February, I think most of these issues should really have been worked out before the KS began, and essentially be non-issues now.
Stretch Goals - this is part of maintaining a Kickstarter. We know that keeping on top of updates is vital. Now we know that the initial days' rush threw their original stretch goals out of the window, and the subsequent slowdown to a near-crawl has mangled their quickly-remade plans as well. However, I'd think that an afternoon's meeting would be enough time to work out a progression of $20-50k or so in $5k increments. You would assume that the silhouetted concept artwork are all finished images (well before the KS started) that just need the "stretch price" to be typed in. Post them on the KS page and job done. A relatively easy job, if they've prepared properly in the last 6 months. (Remember Reaper's maps?) This helps keep the momentum up and potentially increases pledges.
Renders - well, they claimed at the start of the campaign that almost all (80%?) were finished and the rest would be finished by the conclusion of the campaign. Even if NO new renders get finished during the campaign due to Benoit's injury, they should still have most of them in a condition to be displayed. While the concept art is nice, look at the renders by comparison - Nurse Bernadette, Nepharya, Blondie? All looking great, and FAR better at selling the figures than artwork, especially considering how often great concept art becomes merely good or average figures. If they have them done, they should be in ready-to-show images, similar to the Nurse or Blondie. Again, great for backer momentum and enthusiasm.
Real Savings - they kinda screwed themselves a little in the first 2 days and also with their discount/pricing structure. $6.50 savings on $10 heroines and $3 savings on $15 heroines? That doesn't take even a month of preparation. It just takes 1 objective person to look at (as opposed to their friends, yes-men, fans) and point out it needs fixin'. The easy fix for this is to increase the giveaways. Whether it makes it worthwhile or not for them comes down to their KS attitude - if they're seeing this as a slightly-discounted direct retail channel, or as an opportunity to raise funds to produce models that they will sell for years to come - and how far to one side or the other they want to lean.
The RH Game - Easy one. Just put it off since everyone is going to use these figures for WarHammerZoneInfinityEtc anyway - "We're still in the very early stages of working it out right now, but rest assured that it will be the best quality product that we can bring to market."
What Ships When - since they're planning on going into production mode pretty quickly post-KS, and the assumption is (was?) that all the initial silhouettes would be unlocked, I'm sure they would (should?) have a general roadmap. They don't need to be able to tell us that now, but they will need to have that info before the campaign ends. If they don't, it has the potential to hurt them.
Unlock Everything - this really does have the potential to hurt them, badly at that. This because they're running a 3-faction KS, and people building armies have pledged large amounts of money on Day 1&2 with the assumption that everything they need ot build their _____ army will be unlocked by the end. If key items aren't unlocked, people will pull/reduce their pledges. Note this doesn't affect me personally, because I just want $10 heroes at this point, but then again, if they don't have all of those heroes unlocked, I might well reduce my pledge anyway. The panicked Day 1&2 reorganisation of the stretch goals in expectation of far larger ongoing daily pledge amounts has backfired. They did change things afterwards, but it has the potential to go badly if the campaign starts to have negative inertia. Hence, the vital importance of more frequent updates, renders, etc - stuff that should have been pretty much sorted out before the campaign started...
I mean, my current leaning is to reduce or even drop my pledge. At $365, there's no need or desire to increase it. Now if I do reduce or drop it, I won't do so until the last 48 hours - at which point it will either be negligible due to the feeding frenzy spike, or at worst, part of a far larger mass exodus. Adding some more significant freebies (and not really the petlings, unfortunately) will absolutely make me more likely to keep my existing pledge. Either way, I've pledged as much as I can afford (and frankly, more than I should pledge) already, so increasing it isn't on the table.
I dunno what will happen, but it's certainly going to be interesting.
Renders - well, they claimed at the start of the campaign that almost all (80%?) were finished and the rest would be finished by the conclusion of the campaign.
Minor nitpick, but the actual claim was that 80% would be finished by the end of the Kickstarter, not that 80% were finished at the beginning.
Anyway, I still think their biggest planning problem, however long they were planning it, is that they were following Kickstarter's guidelines and suggestions (something they've mentioned several times previously). The problem, as we've seen, is that that guidance does not work very well for successful gaming Kickstarters.
But, when you consider that this is an incredibly niche product (ultimately, it's mostly for people who want female IG or alt SOB), I still say they're doing incredibly well for such a limited audience within an already limited audience. SHould they have tried to do three armies all at once? Probably should have just done two, but hindsight and all that...
Buzzsaw wrote: According to their comments "Yes, about that: waist height to the heroines when sitting upright." Honestly, it seems impossible to imagine that the details on that figure could be reproduced with any kind of fidelity at that size...
Judging from the similar sized "Walter, the Renaissance dog" that is part of the limited Königsmark sister box they won't have a problem transferring the concept into a worthwhile miniature.
Yes, I agree. I'm painting the Kurganova's dog right now and it is characterful for a tiny lump of metal. Details that should be there are there. And I'm sure it's just paraedolia, but I keep seeing a face on it's back...
Some random thoughts: Why in the world do they post so late at night/early in the morning? The last post was a bit after 5AM France time.
Amusingly, about ten minutes after TGG Update #20, into my inbox comes an update for Cthulhu Wars, update... #47 (FYI, CW started the day after TGG). Also interesting, in-between that update at 11PM last night and now, there has been another update.
They do seem to have some idea of this disconnect. From the comments;
@Abe Lincoln with a Shotgun Axe
You wrote: " I guarantee, if they came out with the information on the wave shipping, and included even two or three more stretch goals, it would bounce up a bunch. A solid update with a few 3D printed minis, solid goals, and well expressed ideas? Probably another 5 digit day."
OK, we are taking you at your word! We will be posting several updates in the next few hours on each of those topics...
Let's see what happens!
First update will be on Wave Shipping, coming up in a few moments.
Project Update #21: SHIPPING YOUR PLEDGE REWARDS IN SEVERAL WAVES
Posted by Loud'n Raging Like
As you are probably aware, while our Kickstarter delivery date is planned for March 2014, the production of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy is spread over several months.
Therefore, we already know that the minis will be produced in several waves.
While we know that everything will be ready to ship by March 2014 as stated, we have been very reluctant to share details of the “wave” production plans, because those plans are fluid.
Nevertheless, we know that having at least some idea of what's coming up can be quite exciting and can help with planning. So here is what we have in mind.
The first wave is planned to include up to 15 Heroines, as well as all the Regular Troopers (that is, the Troops Boxes and the Command Group Boxes) for all 3 armies. The Kurganova Heavy Troopers should also be part of this wave.
This, however, is not a completely FIRM schedule, since this first wave will also be when we finesse our production tactics and workflow. So there might be some more stuff, or there might be a little less.
Overall, we are aiming for 3 waves, or perhaps 4, by March 2014, but it is too early to commit to exactly how many there will be and what will be in them. Because if we do and things don't happen exactly has stated, then everybody gets understandably frustrated :-(
Sad but true: we have been burned too many times by our enthusiasm and our wish to communicate, and so we are now forced to proceed with caution :(
But again, what we can be FIRM about is that everything will be done by March 2014.
Getting in on the wave shipping
There are 2 ways to receive your minis ahead of March 2014, if your pledge rewards include minis that are ready earlier:
DROP SHIP PROGRAMME: You can pick them up at a drop ship location
PERSONAL WAVE SHIPPING PROGRAMME: You can pay the extra shipping costs associated with having your pledge rewards shipped in several waves.
You don't have to make that decision now. When the first wave is ready, we will contact you, and you'll then be able to choose the option you want, (and pay for the extra shipping if need be, if you chose the Personal Wave Shipping Programme).
Drop Ship Locations
Here is the list updated as of June 8. We will be updating this list again this week-end.
What's next?
Stay tuned for another update within the next 2 hours, to find out what's waiting to be unlocked...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if I plan carefully to have all my stuff picked from Wave 1, I still have to pay extra for shipping? Say wha???
Buzzsaw wrote: Sooo... the one thing they are certain of is "what we can be FIRM about is that everything will be done by March 2014."
What about other miniature kickstarter campaigns, esp. those with multiple waves: Have they managed to fulfill their planned shipping dates and when did they announce those dates?
It was a brilliant concoction of marketing speech. I've rarely seen qualifiers used more efficiently.
I know we wanted an update, and a lot of us would have been unhappy had there not been one. But I think we should start clamoring for meaningful updates instead.
In any case, if it's not an extra 23$, I might still plan my purchases for Wave 1 stuff and be done with it. The rest I can get at retail. Support an online stockist.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: So if I plan carefully to have all my stuff picked from Wave 1, I still have to pay extra for shipping? Say wha???
They were talking about waves. That might be interpreted as no extra cost if everything is in one wave. Although to be sure one of the heralds should try to clarify please.
Edit: Please also ask whether it is possible to opt-out of getting freebies, the exclusive heroine, etc, as i am sure those who only want to get one wave would be annoyed to pay extra shipping just for them.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: So if I plan carefully to have all my stuff picked from Wave 1, I still have to pay extra for shipping? Say wha???
They were talking about waves. That might be interpreted as no extra cost if everything is in one wave. Although to be sure one of the heralds should try to clarify please.
It's always a good sign when a long awaited update intended to clear things up needs immediate clarification.
It was also amusing when the total dropped by $50 about 5 minutes after the update was posted.
Though MiniKingdom pretty well nailed it already,
MiniKingdom wrote: ...
Also, don't want to be too negative, but really what use was that update? There was no information in there that we didn't know already. :/
Buzzsaw wrote: It was also amusing when the total dropped by $50 about 5 minutes after the update was posted.
It's even more funny that people try to monitor these minuscule movements...
I said funny, not meaningful.
It was also very difficult to notice, requiring most of my powers of deduction, what with the total posted in huge script in the upper right hand of the page...
From the comments;
Creator Loud'n Raging 1 minute ago
@Emma: If all your models were part of the first wave, of course not. Basically, as soon as a wve becomes available, any pledge rewards that can be fully shipped will be shipped. Absolutely no reason to have you wait until March 2014 if everything you chose is ready in October!
@J.Brown @Emma: it will depend on the size of the package. It's the French Post rate for small parcels + the tracking sticker cost.
So that should put your mind at ease Mathieu: although from the sounds of things the first wave will be very limited.
I had limited myself to mostly Kurganova troop boxes and a few heroes. If the heroes need to be shifted to conform, fine, I'll pick up the ones I want at retail, like I said.
Yeah, I know, I'm not setting myself up for big discounts. But it's what I want...
Buzzsaw wrote: Sooo... the one thing they are certain of is "what we can be FIRM about is that everything will be done by March 2014."
What about other miniature kickstarter campaigns, esp. those with multiple waves: Have they managed to fulfill their planned shipping dates and when did they announce those dates?
One of the few KS projects that has managed to fulfil it's dates so far is Mantic Games with Dreadball and that used waves (they gave a month for the fist shipment, then a quarter for the next two),
but it's so rare if you have to have stuff on the estimated delivery date KS is probably not the place for you
This is a special update because tomorrow is Mireille's birthday, and because we are also smack in the middle of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy campaign, so we thought that we'd spice things up :-)
So the $430,000 Stretch Goal (and maybe some of the others to come) will unlock not one, but THREE veiled silhouettes!
And as some of you have commented, it is true that the Iron Empire has not had a lot of its Heroines unlocked compared to the other factions, while, on the other hand, we are very close to having all the Jailbirds Heroines out (forgive the pun).
So we are taking this opportunity to unveil 2 Iron Empire Heroines and 1 Kurganova Shock Troop Heroine. Yes, life is unfair for the Jailbirds, but then, hasn't it always been?
So here is the very much anticipated Ilsa Wolfenstein, Commander-in-Chief of the Iron Empire army. She is a one-of-a-kind leader, as she will not wait behind the lines but will jump right into the fray, seemingly invulnerable. She had her giant claws specially made for her so that she could engage in melee with the terrible Kurganova were-creatures.
And meet the newly-renamed Lieutenant Drakkan of the Iron Storm Heavy Troopers. Originally, this character was named Lieutenant Kotzen, but several readers pointed out that in German, Kotzen meant vomit. So we ran a little poll on Facebook to get some new name suggestions. In the top three was the name Kieta Drachan, which we felt suited her background the best. However, Drachan in French would be pronounced Drashan, so we changed the spelling to keep the hardness in the name.
And finally, here is Volga Potemkine (with a silent 'e' at the end), who carries the Kurganova army banner. As you may have noted, Volga Potemkine is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek name, as it refers, in a very obvious fashion, to the battle of Stalingrad in which the Soviet Union fought the Nazis, and to the movie Battleship Potemkin, which tells the story of the mutiny of its crew against their tzarist officers, and which has been called one of the greatest propaganda movie ever.
Like them? Please share you favourites. You can also add this link back to the campaign: http://kck.st/18RPJfh
PS/ We are making a big advertising push right now, and we'll tell you more about it in our next update :-)
I quite like Ilsa, can't see a use for her in what I've got planned but the concept art looks quite good. Probably end up using her to fill in $15 instead of another JB trooper command.
It's nice to see that they are looking at ways to get more unlocked without necessarily changing the SG intervals and the feedback that could result from such an action.
Once this is unlocked means the target number for total unlocks is $710k, which is a good bump from both sides of the equation.
Looking at kicktraq though the highest projection is $525k.
I'm a little late to the thread... I backed first day $500. And a week later pulled my backing.
I can't see a reason to back this. The company clearly doesn't know what they are doing, or simply don't care. As someone previously pointed out, they've said that they've been prepping this kickstarter for 6-18 months. But they didn't have the stretch goals ready? And since then their freebies and value have been terrible. They really seem to be treating this like a pre-order, but since the company is really unorganized I doubt they'll ship anything anywhere near the date.
I was thinking of grabbing the LT pledge, but I'm confused. It says for a $165 I can select $150 worth of miniatures. Where's that other fifteen bucks going? If someone says the freebies/kickstarter exclusive model that's nuts.
The mascots are cute, but most people have no use for them.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: I was thinking of grabbing the LT pledge, but I'm confused. It says for a $165 I can select $150 worth of miniatures. Where's that other fifteen bucks going? If someone says the freebies/kickstarter exclusive model that's nuts.
That's going towards the exclusive model and yeah, you're not alone in calling BS on that part.
Yes after all the time I think it is clear that Ragin Heroes made mistakes, I don't think a time machine will appear after a certain amount of time or number of posts pointing out on that one. Of course they have made a whole lot of things, as every company have and as every company they don't tell anyone what speficially happened.
I can't see that Raging Heroes doesn't know what it is doing, just that they didn't prepared well and have to learn out of the experience they made in this Kickstarter. Nevertheless it is a success until now for them and us. The number they achieve is pretty high and we already saw pretty good renders and a great amount of artworks for beautiful characters. They heard the complaints and they reacted. The communication isn't only in one direction and there are changes.
I don't agree that the freebies and upgrades have a terrible value. Until now we have three tank commanders (which have legs thanks to the backers), two freedom fighters and two mascots. Of course not everyone will be using them. That lies in the nature of a free thing, it's just impossible to make something everyone will use. All in all we have a bunch of miniatures and bits, which costs money to produce for a lot of people and is free. And only Drusilla is exclusive, which I think is nice from RH, since nothing is more frustrating as to see many interesting miniatures, you can't get because the KS is over.
The concept art of the newly unlocked minis is great, but still no renders. Talk about missing the point.
The more time that goes on, the more I just want to just cut my pledge completely. If you have the renders, show them. Holding them back just makes it feel like you don't have any confidence in them.
Well, afaik, they've not actually said when we'll see pictures of the prints just that they have some in hand and were taking pictures. That was posted up yesterday, before update 20 was posted.
I have no idea but a print and comparison picture would help settle a lot of issues, if they have concerns or issues with showing a print incase of loosing backers I think they would loose more not showing any.
Oh, I have no doubt that we will see the pictures. It's more down to when we'll see them. Hopefully it will be in another update today or some time tomorrow. Though I'd also like to see details of a few more SGs posted as well. Give us a mini-roadmap so we can start looking a bit further ahead.
Oh, her concept art looks fantastic. But we won't have an idea how she actually looks until they release an render. And for all we know, that might not even happen.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, her concept art looks fantastic. But we won't have an idea how she actually looks until they release an render. And for all we know, that might not even happen.
A wise alien once said: "patience you must have my young padawan".
Cheers to whoever is updating the OP with all the stretch goal pics (not sure if it's RH themselves or one of the mods... MDS?)
I am very interested in seeing the 3d prints! The art is fantastic, as are the renders, but I can't believe they didn't have any prints done before the campaign. Still, that could really help boost this, I think
It's done fantastic, and every campaign has a lull in the middle. It could easily catch a huge wave at the end, too, as these often do.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, her concept art looks fantastic. But we won't have an idea how she actually looks until they release an render. And for all we know, that might not even happen.
A wise alien once said: "patience you must have my young padawan".
Considering the amount of competing kickstarters and online retailers out there, I have no obligation to be patient, and RH should not expect me to be. Especially with something so rudimentary as pictures of what I am actually paying for.
I know it's only art, but drakkan looks amazing. Really happy with that. And I have faith that the renders will be very close, but we'll see soon enough.
Fafnir 530736 5768611 wrote:Considering the amount of competing kickstarters and online retailers out there, I have no obligation to be patient, and RH should not expect me to be. Especially with something so rudimentary as pictures of what I am actually paying for.
Since you haven't paid yet and won't for at least another fourteen days i feel it's okay to ask for a bit of patience.
.
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
Yup, and the renders they have already shown have looked fantastic IMO. That's why I've no doubt that the rest will be also.
I just read the following in the TGG kickstarter comments:
PsychoticStorm on KS wrote:
I really love Jinx, I hope they fix his paws though, back paws 4 fingers front paws 5 fingers and elongated.
and since i can't post over there right now i have to ask here: Is there another picture of Jinx or am i just not seeing what PsychoticStorm saw.
For reference the picture from update #20:
And minx is right, we have two weeks to mull things over. If, after those two weeks, we still want to pledge, we will. If we don't, then we won't. I understand the want for information, I understand the concerns and questions. I just don't understand the desperation and franticness.
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
Yup, and the renders they have already shown have looked fantastic IMO. That's why I've no doubt that the rest will be also.
Well, the renders of the heroines do all look very nice. However, there were issues with the trooper renders that sparked quite a big debate at the time and we've not seen anything since. Admittedly, the troopers were WIP so some differences from the concept art are to be expected.
What we need to see, and sooner rather than later, is pics of actual 3d prints. Really, imho, they either should have got at least a couple of pictures up yesterday. It doesn't take that much to snap some pictures and upload them, if they're not the best quality just make sure they're clearly listed as such. Either that, or they shouldn't have mentioned it and we'd not be in the current situation of jam tomorrow.
I think some of you guys are forgetting RH's past. I haven't heard a bad thing about them. I think you should have a little more faith in a company that has already proved they can produce great miniatures.
Minx wrote: I just read the following in the TGG kickstarter comments:
PsychoticStorm on KS wrote:
I really love Jinx, I hope they fix his paws though, back paws 4 fingers front paws 5 fingers and elongated.
and since i can't post over there right now i have to ask here: Is there another picture of Jinx or am i just not seeing what PsychoticStorm saw.
For reference the picture from update #20:
Spoiler:
Pic looks like Jinx has 3 "fingers" front and back. Cats have 5 at front and 4 back.
But if Jinx is a cat sized miniature, then you couldn't tell the difference I guess.
Kroothawk wrote: Pic looks like Jinx has 3 "fingers" front and back. Cats have 5 at front and 4 back.
But if Jinx is a cat sized miniature, then you couldn't tell the difference I guess.
Oh, I see. Total misunderstanding on my part.
The fifth frontal claw of my cat isn't as visible when seen from the front though. Perhaps that's why the alien cat got three back and front?
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
Agreed. I've backed many KS projects, not all of them game related. Only the boardgaming ones, particularly those involving minis, seem to have this level of demand from the backers to have everything completed and visible upfront. Some of the projects I've backed barely even had a functioning prototype ready, with few to no stretch goals or freebies available. So, maybe my expectations are a bit different.
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
Yup, and the renders they have already shown have looked fantastic IMO. That's why I've no doubt that the rest will be also.
Well, the renders of the heroines do all look very nice. However, there were issues with the trooper renders that sparked quite a big debate at the time and we've not seen anything since. Admittedly, the troopers were WIP so some differences from the concept art are to be expected.
What we need to see, and sooner rather than later, is pics of actual 3d prints. Really, imho, they either should have got at least a couple of pictures up yesterday. It doesn't take that much to snap some pictures and upload them, if they're not the best quality just make sure they're clearly listed as such. Either that, or they shouldn't have mentioned it and we'd not be in the current situation of jam tomorrow.
For my part, I liked those wip troopers. I agreed with some of the criticisms that the chests could be smaller, and they seemed to take those criticisms on board. Apart from that, I thought they were looking really really good. But you're right, pics of 3d prints would be nice. Like I said though, I don't think there needs to be a huge rush for them. They've got two weeks to show us.
Its going to be half a model high in that pose, so it is going to be big enough to make out such detail.
Assuming the front paws have the side finger the concept art has fingers 4 in front and 3 at the back, in both cases 1 finger short of how many there should have been.
Moreover Sphynx cats have really long front fingers able to grasp things, on the plus side they got the tail about right I think its long enough.
It's a bit of a mess of a KickStarter to get into, to be honest.
I've funded on the Lt level, but say I want a mecha. What do I do then? Can I buy that extra with my Lt pack, or do I in some way trade two $15 packs for the $30 mecha pack after the final kickstarter date?
Knowing what you will get, how to choose the rest and such is just a big jumble.
Purifier wrote: It's a bit of a mess of a KickStarter to get into, to be honest.
I've funded on the Lt level, but say I want a mecha. What do I do then? Can I buy that extra with my Lt pack, or do I in some way trade two $15 packs for the $30 mecha pack after the final kickstarter date?
Knowing what you will get, how to choose the rest and such is just a big jumble.
It's pretty easy. Pledge $165, then choose $150 worth of miniatures.
Purifier wrote: I've funded on the Lt level, but say I want a mecha. What do I do then? Can I buy that extra with my Lt pack, or do I in some way trade two $15 packs for the $30 mecha pack after the final kickstarter date?
You can choose any miniature you like for a total sum of $150. In addition you get the KS exclusive heroine, the digital artbook and the freebies. If you'd like more miniatures you can add to your pledge.
Edit: Moreover, don't forget to add the shipping costs.
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Purifier wrote: I've funded on the Lt level, but say I want a mecha. What do I do then? Can I buy that extra with my Lt pack, or do I in some way trade two $15 packs for the $30 mecha pack after the final kickstarter date?
You can choose any miniature you like for a total sum of $150. In addition you get the KS exclusive heroine, the digital artbook and the freebies. If you'd like more miniatures you can add to your pledge.
Edit: Moreover, don't forget to add the shipping costs.
.
Alright, and this list of what you wanna choose, I take it that's not something you can do right now, but will be available?
Yeh, you pledge what you wanna pledge. Then at the end of the kick starter they send you what thy call a survey. That's when you choose what models you want and where you want to spend that pledge money.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's how it is usually done, if this is you're first kickstarer.
Purifier wrote: Alright, and this list of what you wanna choose, I take it that's not something you can do right now, but will be available?
The currently available miniatures are marked as unlocked (or available at launch) on the KS main page underneath the heading "THE ARMIES". Those pictures are not always up to date though, in that case i would suggest looking at the first post of this thread.
Edit: As alanmckenzie wrote your final selection will be done once the kickstarter campaign is over. They will ask you what minis you'd like.
Kroothawk wrote: Pic looks like Jinx has 3 "fingers" front and back. Cats have 5 at front and 4 back.
But if Jinx is a cat sized miniature, then you couldn't tell the difference I guess.
Oh, I see. Total misunderstanding on my part.
The fifth frontal claw of my cat isn't as visible when seen from the front though. Perhaps that's why the alien cat got three back and front?
True, the fifth claw on the front paw is usually a little higher and inside the paw, so not ver visible. But to reiterate: If Charlie is anything to go by, you will clearly be able to count toes on a cat. They sculpt and cast that well.
Jimsolo wrote: I for one don't really care how many toes the cat has. It isn't really a cat, after all, but an alien that just kind of looks like one.
To be honest I don't care for that cat at all, I hate the dam things in real life sure as hell don't want it as a model so mine will go on the trade list.
Anyone want to trade the cat for the hippo to be honest I cant believe how much feedback there is on the thing.
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
At past the halfway mark of the campaign, we have seen one squad box of prints that they didn't have posted the first day. They had originally pledged for 80% printed and shown by the end. Given the 1 per day updates they generally do, there are 13 more updates I can expect to see before the end of the timer. I think asking for patience is like asking the iceberg to please move aside and let the Titanic pass.
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
At past the halfway mark of the campaign, we have seen one squad box of prints that they didn't have posted the first day. They had originally pledged for 80% printed and shown by the end. Given the 1 per day updates they generally do, there are 13 more updates I can expect to see before the end of the timer. I think asking for patience is like asking the iceberg to please move aside and let the Titanic pass.
I like you!
Let's be fair and say that Benoit's back delayed the prints and renders a bit and say we only see 60% of them. (He might have been better going to a science-based doctor ). Your point still stands and I'm with you.
I second the notion that it doesn't mean a frakking thing how many toes are on an ALIEN feline entity.
There are even HUMANS in real life with extra digits. And cats that have extras. I used to have such a feline. He had a thumb. He could pick up kibble and eat it like an apple.
Quibbling over a mini of an alien animal missing a digit is crazy.
You had a polydactil cat? so cool. I love those. Mine are plain old boring cats, but one of them in the neighbourhood is a polydactil. I feed him kibbles on the side, to my fiancee's consternation.
Do you know if they can learn to use a flusht toilet?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I have to say, I love your avatar picture!
Fafnir wrote: Oh, her concept art looks fantastic. But we won't have an idea how she actually looks until they release an render. And for all we know, that might not even happen.
A wise alien once said: "patience you must have my young padawan".
Considering the amount of competing kickstarters and online retailers out there, I have no obligation to be patient, and RH should not expect me to be. Especially with something so rudimentary as pictures of what I am actually paying for.
Yes, they had some of the rending work done, not all though, I'm guessing. Kickstarters are for developing unfinished products however. I'd rather they take time and do it right, rather than just phone it in to get some pics up. There's always an element of risk when it comes to investing, but given what renders they have produced so far, it's a risk I feel like taking. I can understand wanting it now, I just don't know how realistic that is.
Project Update #21: SHIPPING YOUR PLEDGE REWARDS IN SEVERAL WAVES
Posted by Loud'n Raging Like
You don't have to make that decision now. When the first wave is ready, we will contact you, and you'll then be able to choose the option you want, (and pay for the extra shipping if need be, if you chose the Personal Wave Shipping Programme).
So if I plan carefully to have all my stuff picked from Wave 1, I still have to pay extra for shipping? Say wha???
Buzzsaw wrote: Sooo... the one thing they are certain of is "what we can be FIRM about is that everything will be done by March 2014."
What about other miniature kickstarter campaigns, esp. those with multiple waves: Have they managed to fulfill their planned shipping dates and when did they announce those dates?
It varies widely - though the initial dates are always announced during the Kickstarter campaigns, they often start to slip and then we end up with amended dates (that can also slip) or even better - no dates.
Mantic have done well on dates with DreadBall and Kings of War. They didn't charge extra for shipping in waves.
Sedition Wars is a mess, no final/updated ETA on Wave 2. But they didn't charge extra for shipping in waves.
Dreamforge is a mess, no final/updated ETA on Waves 2 or 3. They did charge extra for shipping in waves.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote: Maybe Jinx is a Yakuza cat, who has been naughty six times
Or its a rough-looking concept art sketch and the final render/model will have the appropriate number of cat-fingers?
WolfStark wrote: They already showed renders and they will continue with it but it's strange if someone expects to see everything. Kickstarter is not a online shop.
Agreed. I've backed many KS projects, not all of them game related. Only the boardgaming ones, particularly those involving minis, seem to have this level of demand from the backers to have everything completed and visible upfront. Some of the projects I've backed barely even had a functioning prototype ready, with few to no stretch goals or freebies available. So, maybe my expectations are a bit different.
Miniatures and Boardgaming Kickstarters have evolved their own norms and expectations in the last year or so. One of them is that they're used by many creators as an online shop for pre-orders, and in turn are treated like that by the customers/backers. Witness the number of projects on the front page of N&R where some/many/all of the rewards are pretty much the same price as RRP, and in many cases more than you'll be able to buy them for at retail from somewhere like Miniaturemarket... (ie - reward prices are a lot more than wholesale prices to distributors would be). That's not funding the ability to create a project so much as selling pre-orders.
For my part, I liked those wip troopers. I agreed with some of the criticisms that the chests could be smaller, and they seemed to take those criticisms on board. Apart from that, I thought they were looking really really good. But you're right, pics of 3d prints would be nice. Like I said though, I don't think there needs to be a huge rush for them. They've got two weeks to show us.
Yes and no. It depends on how much they like money - and if they want more or less of it in the end. While prints would be great, I'm sure completed or even WIP renders would still be very good for the campaign.
Renders - well, they claimed at the start of the campaign that almost all (80%?) were finished and the rest would be finished by the conclusion of the campaign.
Minor nitpick, but the actual claim was that 80% would be finished by the end of the Kickstarter, not that 80% were finished at the beginning.
Anyway, I still think their biggest planning problem, however long they were planning it, is that they were following Kickstarter's guidelines and suggestions (something they've mentioned several times previously). The problem, as we've seen, is that that guidance does not work very well for successful gaming Kickstarters.
Fair enough on the 80%. I must have misremembered. Still, they surely should have more to show?
I'd have thought a much more logical course of action for their planning would have been to study the mega-successful KS campaigns in our niche and those who ran into trouble, like those from CMON, Mantic, Reaper etc - and Wyrd et al - skim reading through the comments and properly reading the updates sequentially and see what appeared to work and what did not. Even contact some other KS creators in the industry and pick their brains.
I think at this point, or near the $450k mark, the floodgates need to open and RH needs to get everything they're capable of currently funding and have renders/prints for out for people to see. I'd be more willing to spend a bit more for stuff we haven't seen or heard about yet (silhouettes or not) as the last week approaches.
With 14 days left, at the current pace, we are looking at maybe $480k going into the final 48 hours. Sure, half a million dollars is nothing to scoff at, but the final week of the KS campaign needs to go well enough to potentially handle a surge in the last 48 hours, which means unlocked miniatures, renders, and printed models visible for potential backers to see, and purchase.
At this point, there's not much reason for me to stay up to date with this project, because I don't have the feeling that the next update is going to be a mystery, fresh, or exciting (or whatever buzzword fits); it's going to be 1-3 unlocks of stuff we have been teased with, want to buy, but can't yet because the pledge levels aren't structured around a carrot-on-a-stick. We know there's bikes, mechs, and more characters we might want, but if they aren't going to be funded, there's no reason to maintain a pledge that includes the funds for them.
It's rough being in the slump of the project right now, but I feel like there are some things RH could be doing to at least keep their current backers interested and talking about the project.
I don't think that no matter what RH does at this point will make me spend more money at this point. I, as I suspect the majority of the current backers, will wait until the final day to adjust the pledge. What's the point for me to adjust my pledge today, and then some more every 2-3 days when I can just do it once the final day.
Fafnir wrote: The thing is, we've heard that 80% of the renders are done (or that the renders as a whole are 80% completed? Something to that effect).
As potential investors, why are we not allowed to see this?
Let's get the facts straight and not make up things just to harm Raging Heroes:
Raging Heroes wrote:Ultimately, 80% of the sculpts will be done by the end of the Kickstarter, and the rest (mainly hero characters) will be done the following month.
You already did and you will continue to do, as said already.
And yes I know that this part of KS has some own rules but that doesn't mean everyone have to follow them. It is still Kickstarter, not Amazon. Arena Rex didn't have much to show too, just a few WIPs and mostly artworks. In terms of freebies it was some but not a whole army. Not everyone is CMON.
It possible that they do feel the same way, it's been about 9 days since the trooper WIPs were shown and we've not really seen anything since the follow up post saying that they were reading all of the feedback.
However, there are clearly some sculpts that they feel are either finished or pretty much finished given that they've gone to the next stage and actually have 3d prints in hand. So, unless they go through the process a number of times, stopping work on a sculpt whilst they get one printed out, these are probably either finished or needing a couple of small tweaks. In either case, they've been sat on the renders rather than sharing them with KS to get more interest.
I would feel the same way too, many veteran kickstarter companies have raised the bar and expectations quite a bit and every company entering KS with a good enough presentation is judged as a veteran player.
I don't think the final 48 hours will see the typical size of spike that other Kickstarters do.
I also believe that this will be due to their inability to post updates in a quick manner. They just don't give the impression that they can post rapid fire updates to keep the final feeding frenzy going.
There will be an influx of money, just not in the huge amounts some have seen in the past.
What I think may be handy for them to do, is bash together some basic updates along the lines of "Wow, that's $X reached, SG A is now unlocked here's what's needed for figure E" Stick all these in a word document or something, ready to copy & paste over when the time is right. Should help with getting updates out swiftly when/if things start to pick up. If they were just basic unlock updates it's not too hard to combine them on the fly either.
As for how we get from here (small daily increases) to needing rapid fire unlocks, that's a bit harder. Certainly more updates are needed, with some actual content to get people motivated again. We need to see the following, sooner rather than later, to break out of the lull.
- Longer list of SGs and what levels we can unlock them at. (Both unlocks and freebies)
- More renders
- Photos of the actual 3d work they've had in hand since Friday.
The above would probably be broken down into a couple of updates, but if they've done the prep work they can throw them out in fairly quick succession.
There's also other things that have been mentioned but not really talked about further. These would probably go into another update a little time later.
- paypal option. Something that a number of KS projects use
- post KS option to add more funds
- details of adding extra freebies for $X each
Azazelx wrote:They need more/better extras and freebies to get more people in. Not for us - we're already pledged.
Of course, people who have already pledged might be motivated to pledge more. With more items unlocked, I'd potentially be increasing my pledge. Right now I'm not entirely sure that I even know what I want to get with the $150 I already have to spend.
Alpharius wrote:That's an interesting theory.
I wonder if RH actually feel the same way?
In one of their updates they wrote that they've been bitten by their desire to communicate in the past, and are now trying to be more cautious in what they say. It read very much like once bitten, twice shy. I believe it was the update that addressed the wave shipping, so either #20 or #21.
Well, looks like RH are in the office again, given the updated list of Drop Ship locations. Shame that there's still not one close to me and there's not enough information on perks (other than potentially increased foot fall) to get one of the FLGSs interested here.
HisDivineShadow wrote: Have we seen anywhere near 80% of sculpts yet? More then halfway through now?
Nope. We have not. Of course, they also said that 80% of the sculpts would be done by the end of the KS, and didn't make any promises about halfway through. I can see why you'd expect that they would show you the sculpts, but they didn't promise to post pictures of the entire 80% either. I think we just need to be patient, and our lust for sculpts will be sated. We've still got two weeks to go, which is plenty of time for reveals.
Could it be anything to do with Kickstarter's new policies regarding renders? I remember they clarified things to state that renders that people could mistake for final products were not allowable (of course, Wild West Exodus used renders extensively for almost everything, so that argument doesn't seem to explain things).
Thing is, the longer we go without seeing more renders or actual sculpts the less time there is for them to have a positive impact on funding for the KS both short term and in bringing people back the last day to push the numbers up.
There's less than two weeks to go, based on the kicktraq count down, and we're looking at our first day of negative pledges (previous days have generally gone positive again by now). This isn't really a lull any more it's starting to look like a decline.
Even going on yesterday's data, kicktraq is projecting a top end of just under $504k by the end of the KS. This falls significantly short of the currently needed $710k to unlock everything that's already been previewed.
RiTides wrote: Could it be anything to do with Kickstarter's new policies regarding renders? I remember they clarified things to state that renders that people could mistake for final products were not allowable (of course, Wild West Exodus used renders extensively for almost everything, so that argument doesn't seem to explain things).
That was solely for one category, and not the games one.
HisDivineShadow wrote:Have we seen anywhere near 80% of sculpts yet?
No, because that was never claimed nor intended (see my RH quote on this very page).
HisDivineShadow wrote:
Jimsolo wrote: We've still got two weeks to go, which is plenty of time for reveals.
Not at the rate they do updates.
There are no fixed rates of posting updates.
HisDivineShadow wrote:Still, aside from the few renders on the Main page at launch, we've been shown One render Wip.
Why not one every other update? Or every few? It can only help even if they aren't perfect It gets people talking, active, and pledging
Again a deliberately false statement. We have been shown renders of 2 new units since launch.
And it is telling that only people making up stuff to hurt RH are demanding new material however imperfect.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:In all fairness, they can put more than one of two pictures per update. They might.
Or they might unlock three heroines at 430,000 $
I wonder whether people constantly badmouthing this campaign honestly think that a lack of updates is hurting this campaign more than their own actions
I wonder whether people constantly badmouthing this campaign honestly think that a lack of updates is hurting this campaign more than their own actions
HisDivineShadow wrote:Still, aside from the few renders on the Main page at launch, we've been shown One render Wip.
Why not one every other update? Or every few? It can only help even if they aren't perfect It gets people talking, active, and pledging
Again a deliberately false statement. We have been shown renders of 2 new units since launch.
And it is telling that only people making up stuff to hurt RH are demanding new material however imperfect.
That being said, I think this is ascribing some malicious intent where none exists. HDS has been pretty reasonably supportive thus far, and I don't think he's making 'deliberately false' statements, nor do I think he's 'making up stuff to hurt RH.'
I think some people have unreasonable expectations, but I don't think the vast majority of them are intentionally trying to kneecap the campaign. Just a personal opinion, of course.
Feel free to bookmark this link to stay current, as we'll continue to add new retailers whenever they contact us.
How will it work?
When the first wave is ready to ship, we'll contact you so that you can indicate if a Drop Ship location is near you and of interest to you.
If that is the case, your package will be prepared and sealed, and your name will be on it. The retailer will not have to do any sorting or preparing of any kind.
We also answered 2 questions yesterday, which we thought might be of interest to you:
Regarding the ship dates for your pledge: basically, as soon as a wave of minis becomes available, any pledge rewards that can be fully shipped will be shipped. Absolutely no reason to have you wait until March 2014 if everything you chose is ready in October 2013!
Also, someone asked what the cost would be for the wave shipping: that will depend on the weight of the parcel. It will be the French Post rate for small parcels + the tracking sticker cost.
And stay tuned for our next update today, featuring the 3D printed prototype of One-Shot Blondie.
prankster wrote: Thing is, the longer we go without seeing more renders or actual sculpts the less time there is for them to have a positive impact on funding for the KS both short term and in bringing people back the last day to push the numbers up.
There's less than two weeks to go, based on the kicktraq count down, and we're looking at our first day of negative pledges (previous days have generally gone positive again by now). This isn't really a lull any more it's starting to look like a decline.
Even going on yesterday's data, kicktraq is projecting a top end of just under $504k by the end of the KS. This falls significantly short of the currently needed $710k to unlock everything that's already been previewed.
I'm not sure that there's much value in Kicktraq's projections just yet. They tend to show fairly linear upper and lower bounds, which seems to ignore the trend of many mini Kickstarters to have an exponential hook on the last day or two. So while it might be fair to say that, minus any last minute hook, the KS should end around 475-510k, that's really only giving us a lower bound on what to expect.
I think the criticism is at the very least, at least in my case, indication that we care. I think apathy would be worse.
I already said I'd pay for extra shipping, by pledging I am tacitly showing I can and will wait for the product to ship. Now am I allowed just a tiny bit of impatience in wanting to see the renders? Please?
No, because that was never claimed nor intended (see my RH quote on this very page).
There is an understanding and hoped for, implied or not, that backers might get to see work if done before the end of the project.
There are no fixed rates of posting updates.
Irrelevant. I didn't say based on scientific projections of posting ratio.
Again a deliberately false statement. We have been shown renders of 2 new units since launch.
I'll concede this point, as I forgot about the earlier ones for the reg Kurganovs. Still. Even the fact that I forgot about them is telling. Because they are hidden deep in the updates. And I've vociferously followed this since pre launch.
And it is telling that only people making up stuff to hurt RH are demanding new material however imperfect.
I wonder whether people constantly badmouthing this campaign honestly think that a lack of updates is hurting this campaign more than their own actions
Odd that by claiming I'm maliciously making stuff up you are malicously making something up, just saying that, because that would mean that people who want it to succeed DO NOT WANT MORE. Which is hilariously facetious. .
prankster wrote: Even going on yesterday's data, kicktraq is projecting a top end of just under $504k by the end of the KS. This falls significantly short of the currently needed $710k to unlock everything that's already been previewed.
I'm not sure that there's much value in Kicktraq's projections just yet. They tend to show fairly linear upper and lower bounds, which seems to ignore the trend of many mini Kickstarters to have an exponential hook on the last day or two. So while it might be fair to say that, minus any last minute hook, the KS should end around 475-510k, that's really only giving us a lower bound on what to expect.
I fully appreciate that many mini KS projects have an upwards swing in the last day, its easy to see on a number of other projects. The thing is, I'm not sure that RH will have as big an upward swing as some people seem to expect, which means that we need an improvement now to get more things unlocked to actually get people in for the last minute boost and ensure that everything is unlocked. Every slow day just means that the last day has to be that much better to avoid people being disappointed that X or Y isn't unlocked and pulling or reducing their pledge.
It'll go up. it'll boom like other KS. There's a lot of people on the fence, but there's a lot of them, I would bet, that are already sold and are just waiting for the last few minutes because there's no incentive otherwise, the EBs are long gone.
I'm paying a beer to everyone who says "no big upswing" if it does happen.
I already said it, but there won't be the "big" upswing at the end.
It will increase, but not anywhere near what other Kicks have seen in the final 48 like; Myth, DZ, KoW, Robotech, etc..
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an upswing around the time reminders go out, and then a drop-off within 12 hours of that because RH can't react fast enough with Updates and fresh Goals to ride the frenzy.
TalonZahn wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if there was an upswing around the time reminders go out, and then a drop-off within 12 hours of that because RH can't react fast enough with Updates and fresh Goals to ride the frenzy.
I agree, but to a point, I don't believe there will be a frenzy unless the unlocks keep flowing fully and completely. If the unlocks are as slow to being unlocked as they are now, we may not reach the frenzied masses. There is hope, there is time, but will they capitalize on it is the question.
TalonZahn wrote: I already said it, but there won't be the "big" upswing at the end.
It will increase, but not anywhere near what other Kicks have seen in the final 48 like; Myth, DZ, KoW, Robotech, etc..
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an upswing around the time reminders go out, and then a drop-off within 12 hours of that because RH can't react fast enough with Updates and fresh Goals to ride the frenzy.
I agree with this... there's no momentum and everyone who's would pledged, already has. Unless the do a huge blowout at the end, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw people drop off.
In the end, it's a bunch of great looking miniatures from a poorly run kickstarter. It's a good lesson for people in the future. Kickstarter is not a pre-order system. People are investing in a hypothetical product with no guarantee they'll get it or when. If you're not going to reward them (there's no arguing that the freebies are lackluster), then there's no reason for them to risk their money.
TalonZahn wrote: and then a drop-off within 12 hours of that because RH can't react fast enough with Updates and fresh Goals to ride the frenzy.
They were pretty quick with the EB during the first minutes of the kickstarter campaign and i am sure they set aside some time (or more likely all of it) to maintain the kickstarter page during the final hours. They'll manage.
TalonZahn wrote: and then a drop-off within 12 hours of that because RH can't react fast enough with Updates and fresh Goals to ride the frenzy.
They were pretty quick with the EB during the first minutes of the kickstarter campaign and i am sure they set aside some time (or more likely all of it) to maintain the kickstarter page during the final hours. They'll manage.
Someone seems to have forgotten the lack luster performance of the first 3 days. Or that Update 1 was a FORCED update, that came close to 5 hours after the initial release of the bad EBs.
Minx wrote: They were pretty quick with the EB during the first minutes of the kickstarter campaign and i am sure they set aside some time (or more likely all of it) to maintain the kickstarter page during the final hours. They'll manage.
Someone seems to have forgotten the lack luster performance of the first 3 days. Or that Update 1 was a FORCED update, that came close to 5 hours after the initial release of the bad EBs.
I was only talking about the first minutes and the additional pledge levels back then.
Edit: And yes, the updates since then weren't on time, esp. during the first days. I assume they were quite busy sketching, sculpting and organizing things related to the miniatures of this campaign. Stuff that is either finished or set aside in about two weeks time for the last hours.
That was within the first minutes. The bad EBs came with the first press. The 350 commander being an example (it is actually the original Captain EB release.)
I am just saying, unless they set aside time NOW, to start working on fast crack updates, they won't be able to even come close to retaining the strength of a strong upswing at the end, and kill it pre-maturely.
Kind of like Arena Rex, another 3 person team. They lost some momentum at the end as they ran out of things to throw to the hungry masses. I can see that easily happening with RH, who has worse communication skills, and less signs of having WIPs or renders. Heck, people heckled the AR figures, they still showed em! Unlike RH, they are literally a true starter company, whereas RH has been around a bit.
Update #24 · Jun 24, 2013 · comment
You've been asking a lot about how the finalized miniatures would look in the end. So first off, here is an image of One-Shot Blondie that will help you understand get a better feel of what you can expect. (Story continues below image)
One-Shot Blondie is a character we've been working on for quite some time now. And so she's a good example for us to use to share with you how we work on a miniature.
It also is a good example of how we translate concept art into sculpts, and what you can expect as a final product based on the concepts we are showing in the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter.
In traditional sculpting, a sculptor works alone on his sculpt in a linear fashion. He begins by setting up an armature, then adds masses to define the silhouette, and keeps on adding details until the miniature is finished.
At Raging Heroes, our sculpts come to life through a very collaborative process that is not entirely linear. Once the concept art is finalized and approved, there are generally 4 persons involved in the sculpt of a miniature.
Posing comes first
Let's take the example of One-Shot Blondie. Once they've created a nude body with the correct proportions, Art Director Benoit and Sculpt Supervisor Jean-Romain start researching the pose in 3D. Benoit is the vision behind Raging Heroes. He's the one developing the characters and the Raging Heroes look, stye and feel. His work goes from the very early ideas to the final touches on a sculpt. Jean-Romain supervises all the sculpts. In addition to sculpting himself and bringing his own personal take to a miniature, he also makes sure that all the sculpts fit the technical specs needed for printing and casting. He also supervises a good chunk of the freelancers' work, and he also liaise with the foundries to make sure everything goes right once the minis are in production.
The first iteration of posing is in general very fast. In the case of a character like Blondie, we sometimes also add mock-ups accessories like the cape and the gun to get a better feel of the general silhouette.
Once we have this first version, Mireille comes in and helps revise the pose. She's very talented at detecting minor mistakes and deviations from the concept art, or, on the contrary, at slightly changing small element of the pose to powerfully translate the 2D image in a 3D sculpture because sometimes, the concept art uses visual cheat that cannot be reproduced in 3D. Mireille's background in actors' coaching helps her to add nuances to the body language of the character so that we can get the strongest possible expressivity.
Once we're at this stage, you'd still find the sculpt pretty ugly, and that's one of the reasons we tend to refrain showing work-in-progress sculpts unless we are very close to the last stages. In fact, there's always an amazing difference between what you see during 90% of the sculpting work, and what happens in the last 10% of it. It's really at that time that characters come to life and acquire their unique personality and definitive look.
Getting dressed
Depending on the character, Jean-Romain, Benoit, or Andrea will then start dressing it up by creating all the clothing, props and accessories for the character. Andrea Tarabella is a young Italian sculptor who's been working with us for several months now. He works fast and generally is in charge of the first stages of sculpt development, laying down all the elements that give their basic shape to the sculpts. He's also begun to do more and more posing work, and has been a key element in developing the troops sculpts of the TGG Kickstarter.
During this stage, there are 2 distinct jobs to do: creating all the accessories while being true to the concept and making sure that these accessories can actually fit the posing of the character, and ensuring that they fit the requirement of production (being thick enough so they won't break, not creating undercuts that could be problematic with mould-making, etc.).
Refining the sculpt
After this stage, we've got a sculpt that is acceptable, but really lacks in charisma and elegance. So, once again, Benoit, Mireille and Jean-Romain sit in front of the screen together to correct the posing and adjust the proportions of the main elements so that the silhouette comes very close to its final version. Sometimes, we even go back and recreate the pose entirely from scratch, now that all the clothing and accessories are there to give us a better feel of the bulk and proportions of the character.
In the next step, Jean-Romain and sometimes Benoit refine all the accessories and add the last details. They often work on the character alternatively to regularly provide a fresh eye to the sculpt.
Getting the proportions right
Once that's done, we finally have a decent work-in-progress sculpt. But generally, at that point, we once again tweak the proportions. It's very subtle, but it really makes a difference. With now 4 years of experience, we have come to learn that what we see on the screen will be exactly the same in terms of details in the final miniature.
However, we also know that the perception of proportion on a 2D screen and on an actual cast is in fact very different. On a screen, sculpts tend to appear more squat and with bigger heads or hands, and most of the time, the weapons seem truly enormous. However, once you have the miniature in hand, it looks slender and what looked like a heavy log is now a very elegant sword.
That is another reason why it can be misleading for us to show you 3D renders. When we do that, we often see on forums many comments on proportion issues and then, a few weeks later, when people finally get their mini, we read rave reviews on how well they are proportioned and “just the right size”.
By the way, this is the reason why, when we work, we have to keep on zooming out the sculpts on our screens to their actual 28mm size or even smaller. And believe me, that looks very small on a 21-inch screen! But this helps us get a better feel for the final proportions and product.
Final steps
Anyway, once we are there, Jean-Romain takes the sculpt through its final sculpting stage. First of all, he starts by completely cleaning the model. That means resharpening all angles and edges, smoothing lines, etc., while still keeping a very organic feel to the model. He also removes all the little problems like undercuts, fills gap we might have missed before, makes sure that all the details are strong enough for the printing process, etc.
Once again, Mireille and Benoit then stand behind him in front of the screen to do a final round of last-minute touch-ups. Constantly bringing a fresh eye to the sculpt is essential until the final moments to detect previously unnoticed problems and make sure that the under all angles. Because a mini can look great when we look at it full-front, but not work at all once we spin it by 45°, for example.
And, at last, the sculpt is cut in pieces and prepared for 3D printing. So until this very last minute, the scaling and proportion is subject to refinement to make sure we get the best possible result.
Of course, this is a general example of our workflow and sometimes Benoit, Jean-Romain or Andrea will do a full sculpt nearly all by themselves before the rest of the team comes in.
This workflow, while being demanding on the entire team, is not only a guarantee of a great result, but it is also very efficient when we need to work with new sculptors while still preserving the Raging Heroes style and feel.
Last-minute changes
Is is not unusual for us to make a final change to a sculpt AFTER it comes back from 3D printing. When we begin a new series of characters, having an actual physical miniature in hand helps us assess its final proportions. And so it is with Blondie. There will be a very minor tweak to her head, because when we compare it to other minis, it is a tiny bit too small.
We hope this helps you to understand our process a bit more, and to give you an insight on how very special the minis you are pledging for will be, from full-blown Heroines to Troopers. Indeed, if you look at the Units we've done in the past (Mantis, SF Blood Vestals Troops and Command Group, for example), you'll see that the attention to detail and posing for those is the same as for our other Hero miniatures.
We'll talk a bit more about the Troops and show you photos of the first test 3D-printed trooper on Tuesday. But meanwhile, here's another look at the 3D-printed prototype of One-Shot Blondie:
Left as we view the mini, or real left? I think there might be a tad bit of elongation to the left as we see it mini arm (to place it in the proper length of weapon to human as a ratio,) but it doesn't look like enough to make it "off."
And... now I am confused. Great update, great looking 3D printed mini, pledges are dropping. This kickstarter is starting to make no sense. All rules are off! THE END IS NIGH!
A 3d print will not make existing backers add more to their current pledge right now. The current backers will wait, just like on any other KS, until the final 1-2 days to adjust their pledge up or down. Any big boost mid-campaign will come purely out of new backers joining. But, the better stuff RH can provide until the final days, the better the boost will become, obviously.
Everyone should be quite familiar with how KS works these days.
grefven wrote: A 3d print will not make existing backers add more to their current pledge right now. The current backers will wait, just like on any other KS, until the final 1-2 days to adjust their pledge up or down. Any big boost mid-campaign will come purely out of new backers joining. But, the better stuff RH can provide until the final days, the better the boost will become, obviously.
Everyone should be quite familiar with how KS works these days.
That is the thing, there are people here, who were not backing because there were almost no WIPs, or renders, etc etc etc. This is but a small demographic slice, which then equates to possibly larger slices of the populations.
My assumption of pledge increases was that fence sitters would move in, choosing to back now that they have the information they may not have had that they wanted. Sliding backwards, I assumed would have happened yesterday, due to the somewhat mediocre updates. Not vice a versa.
grefven wrote: A 3d print will not make existing backers add more to their current pledge right now. The current backers will wait, just like on any other KS, until the final 1-2 days to adjust their pledge up or down. Any big boost mid-campaign will come purely out of new backers joining. But, the better stuff RH can provide until the final days, the better the boost will become, obviously.
Everyone should be quite familiar with how KS works these days.
That is the thing, there are people here, who were not backing because there were almost no WIPs, or renders, etc etc etc. This is but a small demographic slice, which then equates to possibly larger slices of the populations.
My assumption of pledge increases was that fence sitters would move in, choosing to back now that they have the information they may not have had that they wanted. Sliding backwards, I assumed would have happened yesterday, due to the somewhat mediocre updates. Not vice a versa.
Even if they were to move in, any "seasoned" KS-backer would only pledge the minimum $1, still to adjust it in the final 1-2 days. The only "reason" to go higher is to get an Early Bird special pledge level.
That is assuming the veterans aren't already in, and don't already have EBs. Most of the veterans probably were part of the massive first wave, simply to grab the EBs in the beginning.
Though, "seasoned" backer implies they are not pulling in new faces who can still be quite squimish from reading everything, and seeing a lot of black silhouettes.
I know my first mini KS had me going through ups and downs of "Do I back now? Do I back later? Oh man!" And then an EB opened up, and I was all "yoink!"
Not saying that their aren't waiting veterans, but whose to say people aren't going to be vindictive with their pledges, so to speak? Did anyone ever notice that there are some mini campaigns that end with a large handful of empty EBs, that probably would have been full if people moved or dropped earlier? And this is somewhat going off topic, but into interesting territory!
PsychoticStorm wrote: Buzzsaw, beyond proclaiming you are right, have you tried contacting them and try to make them fix this?
Of course. Had several long and interesting exchanges with them and made a standing offer to collaborate in whatever way they saw fit. I am certainly interested in helping them do well, not to play the untrammeled altruist, since after all, I hope to buy delightful things from them.
To be fair, while my grandstanding is mostly intended to be humorous, it's also an attempt to point out that I have observed patterns that would seem to fit and explain otherwise puzzling phenomenon going on in campaigns.
For example,
somewheresomehow wrote: And... now I am confused. Great update, great looking 3D printed mini, pledges are dropping. This kickstarter is starting to make no sense. All rules are off! THE END IS NIGH!
People pledging TGG may be presumed to have some knowledge of RH, which means that the update, while providing some insight, doesn't provide anything new. The number of people that are actually interested in the minutia of how RH actually goes about doing their business is dramatically less then the number of people who couldn't care less how they get great models, they just want to see great models.
One-Shot (and thus Update #24) is, therefore, a stellar example of a campaign spending time telling people about what the company in question is already presumed to do well.
What would be noteworthy would be prints of things that are completely new to the campaign, such as the ball-and-socket troopers, which are (to the best of my knowledge) a radical departure from RH's existing core competence.
So, One Shot is essentially more of the same in some people's eyes. But RH also produces very good troops (Vestals, Mantises), so how are they drastically different?
Tannhauser42 wrote: So, One Shot is essentially more of the same in some people's eyes. But RH also produces very good troops (Vestals, Mantises), so how are they drastically different?
What would be noteworthy would be prints of things that are completely new to the campaign, such as theball-and-socket troopers, which are (to the best of my knowledge) a radical departure from RH's existing core competence.
Emphasis re-emphasized. The existing line of troops from RH are known for being a) very nice and b) mono-pose or very limited in posing.
Again, to the best of my knowledge, there are no ball-and-socket figures currently produced by RH. Certainly none that are "Utra-customizable multi-part troops, thanks to multi-part ball-joint system", as the front page of the campaign describes them.
I've never heard of ball and socket miniatures, to be honest. I would be very interested in seeing some more detail on what they look like unassembled, and how this ball and socket system works. (What the limitations are, etc.)
In addition, if we're wishlisting about things that might give the KS a bump, I would like to know EXACTLY what I get in the boxed sets. My biggest complaint about GW has always been that I don't know which bits are in which boxes. If Raging Heroes were to take steps to correct my ignorance, that would really be going above and beyond, in my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, Buzzsaw, you're saying this:
I have a funny question, well not funny per se, but humour me:
If one does not have an EB slot, what is the advantage of pledging more than a single dollar and adjusting later via paypal? I assume the fees to the creators are much less, for one?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now does anyone know how I'd go about sending beer across the border?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If one does not have an EB slot, what is the advantage of pledging more than a single dollar and adjusting later via paypal?
The only advantage I can see would be to the project creater as they (assumedly) don't have to fork over more money to CMON.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:By CMON I assume you mean Amazon and KS?
Yeah, I'm confused there: is C'MoN involved in this in some way? I certainly wasn't aware of it if so.
As to the original question, the only real danger as I see it is I'm not sure that there has been confirmation that there will be a post campaign pledge manager. That said, due to the nature of the campaign it seems almost impossible for there to not be a post campaign pledge manager that you can add to (a great danger of any ala cart campaign is that people will simply make math errors).
If one does not have an EB slot, what is the advantage of pledging more than a single dollar and adjusting later via paypal? I assume the fees to the creators are much less, for one?
Well, if everyone only pledged $1.. the project wouldn't fund.
But otherwise, yes the Fees are less with Paypal (~3% compared to 10%).
It depends on if RH will let you change your pledged level after the fact, or if it's just add-ons. If you can change from $1 to Lieutenant or Commander or Uberpanzerreichskommado, there's no penalty to doing that (aside from the whole Tragedy of the Commons type deal.) If you can't, ie if you can only buy add-ons post-KS, then you miss out on the exclusive KS mini, the freebies, and if you were going to get one of the $350+ level pledge levels you will get slightly less value for your money.
Basically the only direct advantage to pledging more than $1 occurs if you can't 'buy' a pledge level post-KS.
I thought you always had to pledge at least the level you selected (not under). So an early pledge level would have to match the value listed, or be higher, I thought.
I've never tried entering a number less than the pledge level selected... seems just... wrong, somehow!
One of my friends want to jump into my pledge. I just don't know how he'd insist on sharing the freebies. I feel he'd want Svetlana, but that one is the best of the lot, in my opinion.
I guess he'll have to be a big boy and use his own credit card.
One of my friends want to jump into my pledge. I just don't know how he'd insist on sharing the freebies. I feel he'd want Svetlana, but that one is the best of the lot, in my opinion.
I guess he'll have to be a big boy and use his own credit card.
Yeah, I've got a few friends who have kicked in some money just so they can get a few of the heroines without having to pay the unbelievable shipping and handling, but I'm not about to share my freebies.
I'd almost say the opposite. They should probably charge a bit more for shipping in order for them not to lose money on it. But let no Herald hear that.
Azazelx wrote: Again guys, the shipping charge is actually very reasonable. It's simply that you're not used to paying it...
I wasn't trying to knock RH or accuse them of any silly-buggers. It's just that international shipping is always astronomical. Given the amount of merchandise I'm receiving, it's actually pretty reasonable.
Blegh, I'm getting shifty on my own pledge, mostly due to the financial commitment I have to kick in, this next week will be telling on if I can or not.
Buzzsaw wrote: One-Shot (and thus Update #24) is, therefore, a stellar example of a campaign spending time telling people about what the company in question is already presumed to do well.
I think this pretty much describes the update. I certainly wasn't wowed by it, especially given the sparsity of the pictures. Even though it's more of the same, it would have been nice to see a few more pictures, from different angles and also with one of their existing figures for a scale comparison.
I guess we're waiting until Tuesday to potentially see something new from them. Hopefully, we'll get more than two pictures of the troopers in that update. Until then, we'll probably not gain much in the way of new backers.
Buzzsaw wrote:One-Shot (and thus Update #24) is, therefore, a stellar example of a campaign spending time telling people about what the company in question is already presumed to do well.
Can't be that stellar with comments like this (I remember a lot demands for actual prints in this thread, but I won't search for them now):
lone dirty dog wrote:I am even considering upping my pledge now, this is all I wanted to see, now I have I am pretty dam happy
BTW the print shows (as people familiar with RH already know) that prints are almost exactly as the renders, as they are taken from the same data set. And we have seen WIP renders of troops.
Kroothawk wrote: BTW the print shows (as people familiar with RH already know) that prints are almost exactly as the renders, as they are taken from the same data set. And we have seen WIP renders of troops.
Whilst they have, historically, gotten things pretty close to the renders there's always going to be some changes from the concept art. This is why more renders / 3D prints are being demanded, especially after the WIP heavy troopers where there were a number of differences from the concept art that people weren't happy with. The other main argument for seeing renders / prints is that it shows things are moving forwards and gives a, very early, indication of how likely the first wave is to make it's proposed shipping date.
If we were seeing a larger number of renders then there'd be less demand for 3D prints, imho, as anyone who's seen RH's previous work should be happy enough with a final render as there should be very few if any changes once it's gone for a first print. For those who aren't familiar with RH's work, people who were likely growing more skittish as we went for longer without more renders / 3Ds, the update yesterday was probably more reassuring as they can see directly how one of the figures compares to her concept art.
Buzzsaw wrote: Again, to the best of my knowledge, there are no ball-and-socket figures currently produced by RH. Certainly none that are "Utra-customizable multi-part troops, thanks to multi-part ball-joint system", as the front page of the campaign describes them.
The Königsmark sisters come with different arms and weapons (esp. in the limited box) that can be attached with a simplified ball-socket-thingy (a cylindrical hole and a matching part of a cone / half sphere). Some other miniatures come with additional heads. So, instead of two to five of these sockets we now get up to eight (?) connections for the more customizable troopers. In essence we can expect an update with nothing really new then? That's a shame
We are starting today with the Heroines. So, while they are not yet all unlocked (that will come later), this means that you can now more easily plan your pledge.
Talking about planning your pledge, we want to thank Kenneth Gray, who has created a nifty web page that will help you compute how to spend your pledge, and to determine how you need to up it to get all the TGG you want.
Please note that this is not an official tool yet. But those who have used it have said it does the job quite nicely, and Kenny, bless his heart, is regularly updating it.
We will be unveiling most of the Troops and Supports during the week.
Like what you see? Then please, share it → Note: Kickstarter is not allowing me to upload this image full-size here (grrrrrrrrr!), but you can view it full-size on the front page
Apparently according to it I have $5 left on my tab after all is said and done. I wonder if that could be applied to shipping, I'll have to ask. Otherwise I suppose I could toss another $5 in to grab another $10 heroine, maybe One Shot Blondie, she might belong to another army but she looks fun to paint. Or go up $10 and I can grab one of the $15 Shocktrooper heroes, or IE's General Ilsa... or of course I can scrap the whole thing all together. Decisions, decisions.
Edit: Holy cow! I just noticed that Blondie is rocking a Hog's Tooth from the look of things! That's freakin moto!
Yeah, there's a few on there that I wasn't really looking at before due to the outlines being unimpressive. Going to have to go through properly tonight and recalculate what I'm looking for. Good thing I snagged another EB Commander earlier
Whoops, figured out where that extra $5 came from, I was a hero light, I removed Irina Vega by accident, decided to replace her with One Shot Blondie as Irina's sculpt isn't exactly exciting.
Buzzsaw wrote:One-Shot (and thus Update #24) is, therefore, a stellar example of a campaign spending time telling people about what the company in question is already presumed to do well.
Can't be that stellar with comments like this (I remember a lot demands for actual prints in this thread, but I won't search for them now):
lone dirty dog wrote:I am even considering upping my pledge now, this is all I wanted to see, now I have I am pretty dam happy
BTW the print shows (as people familiar with RH already know) that prints are almost exactly as the renders, as they are taken from the same data set. And we have seen WIP renders of troops.
Speaking for myself, I've been asking for Renders, not prints. Prints are fine, great, wonderful. But I've had enough experience with RH to know that their figures end up looking pretty close to the renders. Having the print(s?) is great, especially since we had people questioning the ...validity of those prints a week or so ago, but more renders would be much more useful to the rest of us.
That's a perfect example of a figure with questionable concept art that might well work if we could see the render. Likewise, Yoko the broken-legged pyromaniac.
Buzzsaw wrote:One-Shot (and thus Update #24) is, therefore, a stellar example of a campaign spending time telling people about what the company in question is already presumed to do well.
Can't be that stellar with comments like this (I remember a lot demands for actual prints in this thread, but I won't search for them now):
lone dirty dog wrote:I am even considering upping my pledge now, this is all I wanted to see, now I have I am pretty dam happy
BTW the print shows (as people familiar with RH already know) that prints are almost exactly as the renders, as they are taken from the same data set. And we have seen WIP renders of troops.
Speaking for myself, I've been asking for Renders, not prints. Prints are fine, great, wonderful. But I've had enough experience with RH to know that their figures end up looking pretty close to the renders. Having the print(s?) is great, especially since we had people questioning the ...validity of those prints a week or so ago, but more renders would be much more useful to the rest of us.
Same here. There's not much question that RH can provide quality concept art, and if you have any of their other models, it's no surprise that these prints look great. What we really need to see are the steps inbetween.
She was one of the best reveals for me.. absolutely excellent take on a female Ogre, much better than the horrific 'male Ogre with saggy breasts' GW pulled out for Blood Bowl, or the just a little too boyish Maneater.
I'd pay for a whole unit if it was of a similar design.
She was one of the best reveals for me.. absolutely excellent take on a female Ogre, much better than the horrific 'male Ogre with saggy breasts' GW pulled out for Blood Bowl, or the just a little too boyish Maneater.
I'd pay for a whole unit if it was of a similar design.
I'm a Kiki fan myself. The first thing that popped into my head when I saw her was 'Death by Snu-Snu'. Foxy might be fun for a diorama piece, but useless for game play unless I use her as an objective. Yoko is promising, but the legs are a bit awkward... it might be catching her in mid-turn, but on the sketch it looks a lot like she's just trying to look sexy with her flame thrower.
Shashenka is the first of the soul weavers that I like; the other ones are in awkward poses. Baba Yaga is nice, but I'm unlikely to get any of the $15 Heroines (the discount is mediocre and I'm not sure that they're really worth $5 more than the $10 ones.) Other than Shashenka, Ivanka is looking to be the only Kurganova I'll probably be going for.
All of the IE reveals are good except for the sniper. Not a fan of the way she's holding the rifle, and it really throws the model off for me.
I wonder if Kurganova troops would look horribly missmatched along side IE troops. Because at this point, my favored aesthetic has shifted from Kurgs to IE, due to the heroines. The concepts for the Kurgs haven't been my cup of tea overall.
That's what I thought - bit of a bummer there, though I guess I can substitute one of the other factions heavies, since this is all one big 'counts as' bonanza anyway!
That's not to say that the concept art revealed isn't great (I remain exceptionally pleased with the IE), but it's now somewhat muddled what is and what isn't unlocked, and... well, okay then.
The concept art is revealed. Cool?
It can't really do much to cause people to increase their pledges, because it's a glimpse of what's planned, rather then what is available.
If someone hasn't pledged yet, because it's not a good enough deal, because they have questions about... scale/renders/casts/plastics/hygiene/whatever, what about this update would make them say "ah, now I put down my money"?
Well, there isn't a lot in the latest update to persuade new pledges to jump on board. However, I think there's enough there so that existing pledges can take a look at what they were looking for and then adjust their pledges accordingly. So there'll be a small bump, especially from those who were unsure about outlines but like the actual art work.
It does, as you cover, make the image more confusing as to what's unlocked / locked / coming soon. I think that's down to the way that they've organised the image though, so that they can just update the one image as things get unlocked and they weren't really planning to show off all the art early, they're just reacting to the way the campaign is going.
I think it's a good thing they revealed all, as it would, for me at least, make it easier to narrow down the exact amount I need to pledge. I believe all characters/troops will be unlocked by the end of this KS regardless of the amount. The *real* stretch goals would come after they were all unlocked, but I doubt we'll really get there now.
Actually Helena Drakenfield really does it for me. Not the most dynamic pose, but damn I like her helmet.
I prefer the graphics to the outlines, so I am pleased with this. The graphics have tags next to the unlocked one, I think it's enough.
I wish Kenny would open up his app for yet-unlocked choices, just so we can really do the lazy-man's "if everything unlocks." It's great that he did that much, though, not complaining.
I'm pretty happy with Jinx. Whenever i settle on a great model for a Rogue Trader Gyrinx to accompany my Inquisitor, someone comes up with something better.
I'm going to have to agree, so from now on if we can keep comments on Vic's stuff in her thread, it would be much appreciated. Channelling the spirit of rule two into the thread. 
