Ignores armour
Has her 3++/4++ saves any more
She has apparently +1 A but that might just replace her special ability which depended on the opponents WS and was actually quite fluffy - hence being dropped I guess
I am surprised nobody (that I have seen) is touting how much ID stuff the DE have now. I also am surprised nobody has mentioned the Coven book. It has about 8 different formations in it, some really nice warlord traits, great art work and fluff, and some pretty good buffs to a Coven list. I think Coven is a viable list again . Liquifier will still be king even with the other gun (only one shot), and ST3.
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
No doom and gloom!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: She does ignore armour (precision blade I believe), has her 4++ 3++, can take an impaler, and I believe she rerolls hits and wounds in CC. She has 5 attacks with Rampage.
I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.
That doesn't mean they're comparable to last edition's Mandrakes, which were probably the worst unit in all of 40k.
Addendum: Morden, we have confirmation on Lilith. She's a beast and only 150 points now.
Fishboy wrote: I am surprised nobody (that I have seen) is touting how much ID stuff the DE have now.
ID certainly is nice, but most of it appears mostly on things without a good AP and mostly on things that are melee ranged, so it isnt that useful against the MCs that are dominating right now, as it is difficult to close in on Jump/Jet MCs and nearly impossible to close in on FMCs. Once you get there, roll your 6 to wound and then it gets shrugged off by a 2+ or 3+ save.
Against characters, who takes a combat monster that isn't EW. If they do, who would accept a challenge from a DE character sporting ID and high init? If not in a challenge, LOS and armor save will be enough.
So DE have a lot of ID, that is a good counter to Ogryns and Tyranids ground MCs. Exactly what they needed!
I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.
That doesn't mean they're comparable to last edition's Mandrakes, which were probably the worst unit in all of 40k.
Addendum: Morden, we have confirmation on Lilith. She's a beast and only 150 points now.
At least they brought an unique feature to the list being inflitrators.
mercury14 wrote: Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts
does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10
what about WS 10, so she can hit a daemon prince on 3+
mercury14 wrote: Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts
does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.
If that's your concern then you can run a cheap Haemi or succubus. With a Haemi pushing PfP another turn forward, the whole unit will come onto the map with a 5+ FNP plus probably cover, etc. Then when they assault the following turn they'll have furious charge.
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.
Archon with webway portal, shadowfield, and an agonizer is 155 pts, and I think the agonizer isn't exactly necessary if his entire job is to escort and then maybe tank wounds with his shadowfield. Getting an archon up to 200 points is ridiculous.
Sslyth are 25 points a piece for T5, 2 wounds, and feel no pain. They also have a shardcarbine, ST 5, and 5 attacks on the charge. That combined with the shadowfield is how the court survives.
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.
Archon with webway portal, shadowfield, and an agonizer is 155 pts, and I think the agonizer isn't exactly necessary if his entire job is to escort and then maybe tank wounds with his shadowfield. Getting an archon up to 200 points is ridiculous.
Sslyth are 25 points a piece for T5, 2 wounds, and feel no pain. They also have a shardcarbine, ST 5, and 5 attacks on the charge. That combined with the shadowfield is how the court survives.
Sslyth use to also come stock with ghostplate. 4+/6++ on T5 isnt terrible in terms of durability. 4 attacks base isnt bad either.
4) Combat Drugs. D6 for every unit.
1. +1A
2. +1S
3. +1I
4. +1T
5. +1WS
6. +1Ld
Strength from Pain. The effects are based on game turn.
1. Nothing.
2. Feel No Pain (6+)
3. Feel No Pain
4. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge
5. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Fearless
6. Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Fearless, Rage
Bloodbrides have Haywire
Wyches / Bloodbrides / Succubi: 4 + invul VS inflicted wounds in every Combat subphase.
Lelith: standard 4 + invul. 3 + invul VS every inflicted wounds in Combat subphase
Succubus can take: Replace close combat weapon witch Archite Blade 20 P.ts Replace splinter pistol with blast pistol 15 P.ts. Take Haywire Greandes 5 P.ts. Take a Webway Portal 35 P.ts Take objects from Close Combat Weapons, Weapons and Wych Cult / Cruelty or Artifacts.
Up to 4 trueborn can have Special Weapons.
trueborn Up to 2 can have Heavy Weapons.
Scourges are "16 P.ts" and "up to 4 models" can take special/heavy. They're Jump Infantry
Only flyers have Skyfire
Blood Dance is a Warlord trait that gives +1WS
And more from Scorpion:
In the Wargear section there is a note that states that Venom blades are only for Acolyths but...
In the Solitaires option it reads that the solitaire can change his carbine for a blast pistol and a venom blade.
Trueborn don't get access to carbines, jetbikes have Hit & run.
Baleblast is 18"
Q: What kind of save does a venom get now? He said no shields, so is it just left with cover and jink?
A: It has its 5+ inv. Only vihicle with flickerfield, no other can get it.
Q: Price on Aethersails?
A: 5 points, making flat out 24".
Q: Could i ask what, if any, changes have been made to Lelith, is it true she is now getting re-rolls on to hit + wound instead of bonus attacks vs WS?
A: 150, Rampage. No armour saves vs her melee weapons. Same inv as before. A league apart: reroll hit & wound in challenge, warlord trait: blood Dancer: +1WS, making her WS 10.
Q: Can Archons take 2 blast pistols?
A: Only one pistol
Q: Was there any change to how many special weapons can be taken by a squad of Trueborn since the size increased from 3 to 5? (Still only 2 dark lances/splinter cannons and 4 blasters?)
A: No change
Q: What exactly does the Wych special weapons do? Still trying to figure out something with the 100 wyches that I have
A: 2 Razorflails: AP5, Specialist weapon, re-roll to hit. Shardnet & Impaler: AP5, +1A, re-roll 1's to hit and wound. 2 Hydra Gauntlets: AP5, Shred, specialist weapon.
Q: Is the Voidraven Bomber now 10/10/10 as rumored?
A: Yes
Q: Can any of the voidraven, razerwing, raider, ravager, venom or reavers jink and fire at full balistic skill or are they stuck snapfiring after jinking?
A: Only snapfiring
Q: You mentioned that an acoultist is the only one that can use a venom blade. Can you confirm that scourges can no longer use a venom blade even though there is one that comes on their sprue?
A: Solitaire can get it too.
Q: You mentioned Trueborn have the same weapon options. Please confirm that they can still use shardcarbines. Other rumors have identified this as an option that was removed.
A: It is indeed removed
Q: Can you confirm how beast packs work. Can you really take 12 of anything in any combination and don't even need to bring a beast master in the pack?
A: Yes, that is true
Q: Are there any new army specific rules for any of the units besides pfp?
A: No
Q: When you take a Talos or Chronos in a group of 3 do they stay as a unit on the table or do you purchase them together and then they act independently on the board?
A: It states unit size 1-3
Q: What does the ossifactor do?
A: R: 24" S1, AP", Assault 1, Fleshbane and if a non-vihicle is removed as casualty, that model's unit saffers D6 hits, Ignoring Cover, S = T of model removed and AP-.
Nice and 1 can be bought pr 5 wracks just like LG.
Q: Has the shredder changed?
A: R12", S6, AP -, blast, Shred.
Q: [RE: Beastpacks] Have any of the prices for the models changed? Up or Down?
A: Beastmaster 10 p, Khy 10, RF 20p, CF 30.
Q: [RE: Beastpacks] How does the unit composition work? Similar to the 5th ed rulebook, or different?
A: 12 models, free choice.
Q: You mentioned that the Heam model is more like the old Heam Ancient, is it the same price?
A: 70
Q: Does anything change or 'speed up' the PfP table?
A: Hemon, Animus Vitae (need to wound with it - this actually very nice!!!) Archon in the formation. (not a very good formation)
Q: Are the Relics usable and interesting, or crap and interesting, or neither?
A: Artefacts of Cruelty are mostly good I think. There can be some nasty combinations.
Q: Is there any way to make Dark Lances better, or have they changed? I never found a Ravager particularly effective at busting tanks.
A: The same.
Q: Have weapon profiles changed, especially, haywire blaster?
A: Some have, some have not. Haywire blaster is still the same.
Q: What are the options for Arena Champ? Just power sword and Agonizer?
A: power sword and agonizer
Q: Reavers still Skilled Rider?
A: Yes
Q: Any changes to reaver options and their pricings. Blaster? Caltrops? Heal-L?
A: 16 points each, Blaster 10p, Heat Lance 10p, Grav 5 p, Cluster 15p. Same options as before, allthough Clusters give D6 S6 HoW hits, all their HoW hit have shred, and Grav gives concussive.
------
Drugs give:
on a D6:
¨
1. +1A
2. +1S
3. +1I
4. +1T
5. +1WS
6. +1Ld
warlord traits:
1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS 6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless
Automatically Appended Next Post: Correction regarding Reavers: "crap! ! I am so sorry!!! It is rending and not shred. I mixed it up!"
mercury14 wrote: Wych math vs MEQ where wych is charging. Percentages of a marine killed.
Regular Wych: 16.7% Wych with Hydra Gauntlets: 28.8%
Wych with Razorflail: 25.0%
Wych with SN Impaler: not sure but I suspect >25%
Wych on +1A drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1A drugs and HG: 37%
Wych on +1A and Razor: 33.3%
Wych on +1S drugs: 25%
Wych on +1S and HG: 37.5%
Wych on +1S and Razor: 37.5%
Wych on +1WS drugs: 22.2%
Wych on +1WS and HG: 37.0%
Wych on +1WS and Razor: 29.6%
Hekatrix on +1A drugs: 27.8%
Hekatrix on +1S drugs: 33.3%
Hekatrix on +1 WS drugs: 29.6%
Hekatrix on +1S and HG: 50%
Hekatrix on +1WS and Raz: 39.5%
Hekatrix +1WS and HG: 49.4%
Hekatrix +1A and HG: 46.3%
So it takes a full 6 wyches charging to kill a single marine... Yea that's why people say they suck. You aren't charging every turn, and your not going to make it there with 6 girls plus the unit leader unless your opponent is a chump. What infantry doesn't carry a flamer these days? The only times I don't carry flamers on my marines are when I am podding melta, which EXPLODES that fancy raider causing ~6 dead wyches, this is turn 1 btw so forget any FnP arguements. OK lets see how well the remaining 4 hold out after overwatch.
10 wyches with 3 weapons a hekkatrix and an agonizer in a raider is around 200 points!
200 pts! Please try to rationalize a one dimensional units that sucks at it's job for 200 points... Please I genuinely want to be missing something here because I own buckets of the things.
EDIT: The fancy weapons are trash BTW. A 50% point increase for 25% damage increase makes no sense. Just take more units.
As for the Drugs, only one helps them survive better, and even then they are just an ork boy, who cost 5-6 pts btw.
So now we can still get our old Haywire wyches, they come with +1 attack, +1 Ld, are not troops, and cost 15ppm instead of 12, but we still have them!
And more from Scorpion:
Q: Has the shredder changed?
A: R12", S6, AP -, blast, Shred.
3rd iteration of the shredder. Still epic fail
"they were terrible at 5 points and 18" last edition, let's nerf the range and add shred to something that usually wounds on 2+, that will make it good"
Q: Any changes to reaver options and their pricings. Blaster? Caltrops? Heal-L?
A: 16 points each, Blaster 10p, Heat Lance 10p, Grav 5 p, Cluster 15p. Same options as before, allthough Clusters give D6 S6 HoW hits, all their HoW hit have shred, and Grav gives concussive.
shred on reaver HoW, not Rending.
oooo that is much worse. I was almost thinking they could be decent with rending. O well
warlord traits:
1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS 6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless
There is almost never a reason to not roll strategic traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Colpicklejar wrote: Are the 'artifacts of cruelty' the regs artificats in the 'dex or are they the coven ones? Wish we had those.
Coven is the new black this edition. Thats before seeing any supplement info btw. I am sure their are some useful coven artifacts, I also predict multiple haemonculi in there since they took the 1-3 from the main dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: LMAO lelith has the +1 WS warlord trait so she is WS10! Thank good she can't take drugs or she would have 3 dead end outcomes basically.
Why can't we have the 3rd ed drugs back where you picked your drug and does and rolled dice to see if you took damage.
I believe the Artefacts mentioned are the codex ones. And yes, Reavers have rending not shred on HoW. I think Scorpion is not a native English speaker and is translating his dex for us to answer questions.
mercury14 wrote: Lilith has 5 attacks +1 for two CCW, +1 for assaulting + D3 Rampage
So between 7 and 11 attacks.
At WS9
Rerolling misses
Rerolling wounds
Ignoring armor
On I9
For just 150 pts
does she have combat drugs finally? I want to bump her up to init 10
what about WS 10, so she can hit a daemon prince on 3+
That is impressive she is really really going to get shot when she wins her combat
Lelith doesn't need drugs according to the fluff - although later post says she gets WS10 anyway due to Warlord trait
Still amuses (saddens actually) that she has the same chance to hit a Gretchin as a Bloodthirster or an Avatar
I believe the new beastpack will be 7 fiends 4 flocks 1 BMaster with Baharoth. That is 37 t5 wounds with 87 attacks on the charge where 63 s5. 25 s3 rending + Bahas blind and power that can tank behind his 2+/4+ and hit and run.
Red Corsair wrote: There is almost never a reason to not roll strategic traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: LMAO lelith has the +1 WS warlord trait so she is WS10! Thank good she can't take drugs or she would have 3 dead end outcomes basically.
What a useful warlord trait for her. Guess that is a good reason not to take her.
serathnal wrote: I believe the new beastpack will be 7 fiends 4 flocks 1 BMaster with Baharoth. That is 37 t5 wounds with 87 attacks on the charge where 63 s5. 25 s3 rending + Bahas blind and power that can tank behind his 2+/4+ and hit and run.
Yea I don't think the pack is dead just different.
1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS 6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless
I am assuming Urien gets #1 by default and Drazhar gets #3 as default(or has a special rule where he cannot be your warlord)
1. warlord and DE within 12" have Fear
2. re-roll Seize, Night Fightig reserve (INSANE GOOD!!!)
3. Warlord has Rage
4.Warlord has Hatred
5. warlord gets +1 WS 6. warlord and DE within 12" get Fearless
I am assuming Urien gets #1 by default and Drazhar gets #3 as default(or has a special rule where he cannot be your warlord)
anything have either 2 or 6 stock?
GW knew we had no interest in reliably getting 2 or 6. Why do you think Vect was pulled
So looking at the DE/Eldar team up from the other end. DE as primary and eldar as allies, (I iknow very little specifics of the Eldar codex) is there an Eldar IC that when joined to Wyches or Incubi that would confer some unit buffs and make these two units into something sick?
Some quick n dirty math for the HoW q model in b2b with the reaver generates d6 hits) shows ~7 dead marines from the HoW alone. So you can feth up a 10-man tac squad pretty royally, and will utterly destroy MSU squads and rear-ten/eleven vehicles. With hit and run, they can basically pinball around the map spamming HoW attacks and then jink away into safety whooping like Zoidberg. Of course, flamers will wreck this.
Not bad. Worth the 45 points though?
edit- Didn't see the comment about it being rending instead of shred. That probably ups the kill count to around 8 or 9.
Jayden63 wrote: So looking at the DE/Eldar team up from the other end. DE as primary and eldar as allies, (I iknow very little specifics of the Eldar codex) is there an Eldar IC that when joined to Wyches or Incubi that would confer some unit buffs and make these two units into something sick?
Add Yriel to 15 wyches with an archon and WWP. Reroll reserves to come in on turn 2 and then use Yriels Eye of doom to kill every single wych right in front of your opponent as a sign of good faith.
Is it bad that I feel that many of the changes to the last few codexes is partly because of myself? Ever since the Chapterhouse suit, the potential for conversion work has went right out the window. Now GW is refuse to have a codex entry for a model they do not have. I feel like characters like the Baron, Wazdakka, and many others are gone because of that damn tervigon kit I made!
Metalhed2434 wrote: Do any of the surviving HQ 's have the reroll nightfight/reserve etc trait stock? That would be kewl...
Doesn't look like it.
Urien has fear, lelith +1 WS, guessing drazhar is rage but he could be the dark horse...
Sad Day....
I am so not even complaining, but I think that the +1 WS trait is a joke...and I literally LOL'd when I heard that it came stock with Lelith. Ha ha ha, I ain't even mad! That is just hilarious.
Lord Scythican wrote: Is it bad that I feel that many of the changes to the last few codexes is partly because of myself? Ever since the Chapterhouse suit, the potential for conversion work has went right out the window. Now GW is refuse to have a codex entry for a model they do not have. I feel like characters like the Baron and Wazdakka are gone because of that damn tervigon kit I made!
Don't beat yourself up. They didn't need to go the route they have recently paved. They could just as easily have made the new archon kit compatible with the missing characters. For example make gear options to make the duke/Vect, leg swap for baron. I mean Nork was tossed into the orgryn who are a dual kit already.
BlaxicanX wrote: Some quick n dirty math for the HoW attacks (assuming each bike hits two bases and that each model in b2b with the reaver generates d6 hits) shows ~7 dead marines from the HoW alone. So you can feth up a 10-man tac squad pretty royally, and will utterly destroy MSU squads and rear-ten/eleven vehicles. With hit and run, they can basically pinball around the map spamming HoW attacks and then jink away into safety whooping like Zoidberg. Of course, flamers will wreck this.
Not bad. Worth the 45 points though?
does hammer of wrath work like that. I thought it didnt matter how many models the bikes touched, but rather how many bikes there are.
BlaxicanX wrote: Some quick n dirty math for the HoW attacks (assuming each bike hits two bases and that each model in b2b with the reaver generates d6 hits) shows ~7 dead marines from the HoW alone. So you can feth up a 10-man tac squad pretty royally, and will utterly destroy MSU squads and rear-ten/eleven vehicles. With hit and run, they can basically pinball around the map spamming HoW attacks and then jink away into safety whooping like Zoidberg. Of course, flamers will wreck this.
Not bad. Worth the 45 points though?
does hammer of wrath work like that. I thought it didnt matter how many models the bikes touched, but rather how many bikes there are.
AdeptSister wrote: The re-rolls to Lilith only apply to challenges? Please tell me that is an error.
I don't think so. It's a pretty silly stipulation.
sounds like something GW would write though....
And another wasted chance.
But wounds from challenges spill over into the unit now, so not a total wash.
Nah I'd say it's a near-total wash against anyone but Chaos. The Nob just kicks back and let's Lelith hit 7 times and wound twice. The sergeant does the exact same thing. If he accepts the challenge, more of his men will die for a certainty. Why would anyone accept that challenge?
AdeptSister wrote: The re-rolls to Lilith only apply to challenges? Please tell me that is an error.
I don't think so. It's a pretty silly stipulation.
sounds like something GW would write though....
And another wasted chance.
But wounds from challenges spill over into the unit now, so not a total wash.
Nah I'd say it's a near-total wash against anyone but Chaos. The Nob just kicks back and let's Lelith hit 7 times and wound twice. The sergeant does the exact same thing. If he accepts the challenge, more of his men will die for a certainty. Why would anyone accept that challenge?
AdeptSister wrote: The re-rolls to Lilith only apply to challenges? Please tell me that is an error.
I don't think so. It's a pretty silly stipulation.
sounds like something GW would write though....
And another wasted chance.
But wounds from challenges spill over into the unit now, so not a total wash.
Nah I'd say it's a near-total wash against anyone but Chaos. The Nob just kicks back and let's Lelith hit 7 times and wound twice. The sergeant does the exact same thing. If he accepts the challenge, more of his men will die for a certainty. Why would anyone accept that challenge?
Because there are narratives to be forged!
It also isn't a total wash if you come up against a combat character that lelith might be able to beat(which are pretty rare). Either she has a chance of handling them, or they dont get to fight.
Coven Warlord Traits:
Allow Chronos and Talos within 12" to reroll FNP of 1
Warlord and any Grotesque unit he is in have it will not die
If warlord is alive add or subtract one from reserve rolls
If warlord is slain by weapon with ID ap1 or ap2 you score D3 victory points
warlord and wrack units he is in get FNP 4+
Warlord has Preferred enemy.
PFP chart is different too going fearless on t2, fear and fearless on t3, add fear and it will not die on t4, loose fearless and add zealot on t5, and t6 add eternal warrior
Wargear section is diabolical playthings. One allows the bearer to add his pick of several USR, vexator mask is -5 init to enemy when in a challenge, orb of despair is s1 ap 2 blast ID, one gives D6 additional attacks in CC but only St3 and no AP but at I10, another gives IWND on a 4+ and poison only ever wounds them on a 6, and the good old nightmare doll that adds one to fnp and ignores first ID would model takes.
One detachment is wracks, raider, venom, grots, Urien, talos, and cronos. Rerolls WL and affects enemy leadership.
There is a Grot formation that is a hamy and 2 grot units and the grots get special rules based on a dice roll. +1 s, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, or FNP 4+
one has cronos, 2 wracks, hamy. wracks get precision strike and count turn as one higher. Warlord auto gets a wl trait.
One is a unit of Talos but must have 5 talos in the unit. They get scout and additional VP for wiping out units.
another has 2 wracks in venom gives D3 VP for first blood, Must be held in reserve but auto come in on turn one in their venom via DS Hamy with 3 wracks and 3 raiders allows Master of Pain to exted 12" from hammy and auto gets a warlord trait
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
Carnival of pain is several of these formations together.
All in all fluffy, really cool, and the artwork in the book is incredible along with the fluff.
Fishboy wrote: Coven Warlord Traits:
Allow Chronos and Talos within 12" to reroll FNP of 1
Warlord and any Grotesque unit he is in have it will not die
If warlord is alive add or subtract one from reserve rolls
If warlord is slain by weapon with ID ap1 or ap2 you score D3 victory points
warlord and wrack units he is in get FNP 4+
Warlord has Preferred enemy.
PFP chart is different too going fearless on t2, fear and fearless on t3, add fear and it will not die on t4, loose fearless and add zealot on t5, and t6 add eternal warrior
Wargear section is diabolical playthings. One allows the bearer to add his pick of several USR, vexator mask is -5 init to enemy when in a challenge, orb of despair is s1 ap 2 blast ID, one gives D6 additional attacks in CC but only St3 and no AP but at I10, another gives IWND on a 4+ and poison only ever wounds them on a 6, and the good old nightmare doll that adds one to fnp and ignores first ID would model takes.
One detachment is wracks, raider, venom, grots, Urien, talos, and cronos. Rerolls WL and affects enemy leadership.
There is a Grot formation that is a hamy and 2 grot units and the grots get special rules based on a dice roll. +1 s, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, or FNP 4+
one has cronos, 2 wracks, hamy. wracks get precision strike and count turn as one higher. Warlord auto gets a wl trait.
One is a unit of Talos but must have 5 talos in the unit. They get scout and additional VP for wiping out units.
another has 2 wracks in venom gives D3 VP for first blood, Must be held in reserve but auto come in on turn one in their venom via DS Hamy with 3 wracks and 3 raiders allows Master of Pain to exted 12" from hammy and auto gets a warlord trait
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
Carnival of pain is several of these formations together.
All in all fluffy, really cool, and the artwork in the book is incredible along with the fluff.
Holy crap...... Is there a CAD detachment in this as well? Someone on Warseer stated that Wracks would become troops...
Fishboy wrote: Coven Warlord Traits:
Allow Chronos and Talos within 12" to reroll FNP of 1
Warlord and any Grotesque unit he is in have it will not die
If warlord is alive add or subtract one from reserve rolls
If warlord is slain by weapon with ID ap1 or ap2 you score D3 victory points
warlord and wrack units he is in get FNP 4+
Warlord has Preferred enemy.
PFP chart is different too going fearless on t2, fear and fearless on t3, add fear and it will not die on t4, loose fearless and add zealot on t5, and t6 add eternal warrior
Wargear section is diabolical playthings. One allows the bearer to add his pick of several USR, vexator mask is -5 init to enemy when in a challenge, orb of despair is s1 ap 2 blast ID, one gives D6 additional attacks in CC but only St3 and no AP but at I10, another gives IWND on a 4+ and poison only ever wounds them on a 6, and the good old nightmare doll that adds one to fnp and ignores first ID would model takes.
One detachment is wracks, raider, venom, grots, Urien, talos, and cronos. Rerolls WL and affects enemy leadership.
There is a Grot formation that is a hamy and 2 grot units and the grots get special rules based on a dice roll. +1 s, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, or FNP 4+
one has cronos, 2 wracks, hamy. wracks get precision strike and count turn as one higher. Warlord auto gets a wl trait.
One is a unit of Talos but must have 5 talos in the unit. They get scout and additional VP for wiping out units.
another has 2 wracks in venom gives D3 VP for first blood, Must be held in reserve but auto come in on turn one in their venom via DS Hamy with 3 wracks and 3 raiders allows Master of Pain to exted 12" from hammy and auto gets a warlord trait
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
Carnival of pain is several of these formations together.
All in all fluffy, really cool, and the artwork in the book is incredible along with the fluff.
I seriously hope you're not messing with me
That sounds really quite interesting, and I look forward to doing my "Mad Scientist" list with Fabius and his Dark Eldar colleagues.
May I just say that every time I see your avatar it brings me great joy!
"Ha ha awesome! I was thinking of changing it, but I can never bring myself to do it
"
Don't do it!!! Ha ha ha, did you make it yourself?
Really sucks about hellions :( I take forever to paint stuff because I am a perfectionist, and I just finished my first 5. Took me like a week! I will still field them, me and my group keep things pretty casual anyways. It was kind of hilarious to watch them fail hard in their first game last week. Not excited to see them get worse ha ha.
Fishboy wrote: Coven Warlord Traits:
Allow Chronos and Talos within 12" to reroll FNP of 1
Warlord and any Grotesque unit he is in have it will not die
If warlord is alive add or subtract one from reserve rolls
If warlord is slain by weapon with ID ap1 or ap2 you score D3 victory points
warlord and wrack units he is in get FNP 4+
Warlord has Preferred enemy.
PFP chart is different too going fearless on t2, fear and fearless on t3, add fear and it will not die on t4, loose fearless and add zealot on t5, and t6 add eternal warrior
Wargear section is diabolical playthings. One allows the bearer to add his pick of several USR, vexator mask is -5 init to enemy when in a challenge, orb of despair is s1 ap 2 blast ID, one gives D6 additional attacks in CC but only St3 and no AP but at I10, another gives IWND on a 4+ and poison only ever wounds them on a 6, and the good old nightmare doll that adds one to fnp and ignores first ID would model takes.
One detachment is wracks, raider, venom, grots, Urien, talos, and cronos. Rerolls WL and affects enemy leadership.
There is a Grot formation that is a hamy and 2 grot units and the grots get special rules based on a dice roll. +1 s, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, or FNP 4+
one has cronos, 2 wracks, hamy. wracks get precision strike and count turn as one higher. Warlord auto gets a wl trait.
One is a unit of Talos but must have 5 talos in the unit. They get scout and additional VP for wiping out units.
another has 2 wracks in venom gives D3 VP for first blood, Must be held in reserve but auto come in on turn one in their venom via DS Hamy with 3 wracks and 3 raiders allows Master of Pain to exted 12" from hammy and auto gets a warlord trait
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
Carnival of pain is several of these formations together.
All in all fluffy, really cool, and the artwork in the book is incredible along with the fluff.
Wow, these sound insane to be honest. The 5 talos formation (5 scouting nasties!) and the 2 grot formations sound dirty.
May I just say that every time I see your avatar it brings me great joy!
"Ha ha awesome! I was thinking of changing it, but I can never bring myself to do it
"
Don't do it!!! Ha ha ha, did you make it yourself?
Really sucks about hellions :( I take forever to paint stuff because I am a perfectionist, and I just finished my first 5. Took me like a week! I will still field them, me and my group keep things pretty casual anyways. It was kind of hilarious to watch them fail hard in their first game last week. Not excited to see them get worse ha ha.
Nah didn't make it, but fell in love with it instantly
I hear you about the models. They are so cool but not great. 15 shooting their pods won't be awful, but it's the painting 15 of them that hurts most I think
It does indeed look fun, It is a shame I stocked up on all the wrong kits :( Looks like it is time to ditch some of my NiB stuff and start kit-bashing/converting some grots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah...once I finished the 5 my motivation was pretty depleted for the other 2 or 3 kits. Then again I remember painting a full squad of 20 daemonettes all at once and that was terrible! Never again! I think 5 is a good number for me when painting. Keeps me motivated without getting totally burned out.
Metalhed2434 wrote: It does indeed look fun, It is a shame I stocked up on all the wrong kits :( Looks like it is time to ditch some of my NiB stuff and start kit-bashing/converting some grots!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah...once I finished the 5 my motivation was pretty depleted for the other 2 or 3 kits. Then again I remember painting a full squad of 20 daemonettes all at once and that was terrible! Never again! I think 5 is a good number for me when painting. Keeps me motivated without getting totally burned out.
I am using legion of everblight warspears with talos bits.
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
This sounds like a big deal. Obvious question: can the hamy take the webway portal to deep strike this unit?
Info from the Coven Supplement from EvilSpaceElves on TheDarkCity.et:
From a 100% reliable source wishing to remain anonymous (confirmed by pics):
COVEN Supplement
Power from pain - by turn number.
1 – nothing
2 – Fearless
3 – Fear, Fearless
4 – Fear, Fearless, it will not die
5 – Fear, It will not die, zealot
6+ - Eternal Warrior, fear, it will not die, zealot
This is a straight copy from the book - yes some of the powers are omitted on purpose as they are not listed in the chart every turn
Warlord chart
1 – talos & chronos reroll FNP rolls of 1 within 12”of warlord
2 – warlord plus any grotesques he joins gain it will not die
3 – add or subtract 1 from reserve rolls
4 – If your warlord is slain by an attack/weapon with AP 1 or 2 or with the ID rule, gain D3 VP 5 – Warlord plus wracks he joins gain FNP4+
6 – Warlord gains preferred enemy
Artifacts
10pts – pick one of the following at the start of your turn which lasts until your next turn – IWND, fleet, poisoned 4+, rampage (used each turn)
10pts – fighting in a challenge – opponent suffers -5 to initiative
25pts – 8”range, S1, AP2, assault 1, blast, instant death, no effect on vehicles (used as a grenade in shooting phase)
10pts – Additional D6 attacks at S3, AP- at initiative 10, grant an additional pile in move at this step, no bonus applicable for furious charge, rending etc
20pts – IWND 4+, only wounded by poisons special rule on 6
35pts - +1 to FNP rolls, negate first wound suffered if it has the ID rule but when this happens, the item is lost
Coven Detachment
Required – 2HQ, 2 Elite
Optional – 4HQ, 6 Elite, 4 Heavy Support
Units that are available in the detachment – Urien, Haemonculus, Raider (DT only), Venom (DT only), Wracks, grotesques, talos, chronos
Benefits – if this is the primary detachment you can reroll warlord chart from this book. All enemy units within 12”of 1 or more models from this detachment suffer -1LD
Was going to say something about the PfP section of the formation losing any FnP bonuses, and that it made a difficult trade off. Then went back through the rumors and realized Wracks/Grots/Tali get FnP stock.
Wow. Just....wow. I feel super bad for orks now. Hey, you know how your thing is large hordes of cheap, durable models marching up the field. Yea, we do that better. But how's mob rule working out for ya?
With some VERY minor positioning and planning, you can have a horde army with 4+ FnP, Fearless, T4-6 models from turn 1.
If this is indeed accurate rumormongering, this Codex is bringing the heat. Given GW's legendarily constant writing, I fear for the BA codex. 50 point terminators and mandatory challenging inc.
Court is nice especially considering using a WWP with it. Medusa are 25 points each but OMG they would be super nasty hehe. I think GW actually did a pretty good job with this list and I already see options that make them real winners with combos. Serpent spam will still be tough but there are some great anti vehicle punch units and some very nice anti psy wargear that will help out. DS into GK or seer council, take the wargear that causes perils on doubles, and the wargear that reduces leadership).
You seem to forget that these wwp-deepstrike units cost 200-300 points (the archon will cost by himself 150+ points with shadowfield and about 200 with all of the fear stuff) and die on the next turn they arrive as they're still just t3 5+ save guys.
Archon with webway portal, shadowfield, and an agonizer is 155 pts, and I think the agonizer isn't exactly necessary if his entire job is to escort and then maybe tank wounds with his shadowfield. Getting an archon up to 200 points is ridiculous.
Sslyth are 25 points a piece for T5, 2 wounds, and feel no pain. They also have a shardcarbine, ST 5, and 5 attacks on the charge. That combined with the shadowfield is how the court survives.
So it is 150+ and with the anti psyker and negative leadership stuff in the quote, that would be over 200 points. The court with three medusae (the most flamers you can shoot from the deepstrike) and four sslyths (to make majority toughness 5) would be 175 points. So over 300 points(and almost 400 points with the fear stuff) for your three s4 ap3 flamers with some non power weapon guys that might live to the next turn. Good luck with them
i'm also amazed that they could make the hellions even more bad. Good to remember with them is also that it's very hard to get cover with them as they fly over most obstacles. They weren't particularly good in the current codex either after the fifth edition, but at least you could make them troops and/or buff them with the baron (and even without him, get grenades). Now they're just very expensive and cool models that were time consuming to paint and horrible to transport. Gaming abilities are very minor. One more reason not to get the new codex.
Q: so lelith is trash?
A: For 15 pts she can get an Impaler allowing hernto re-roll 1's to wound...
Q: Has anything changed in reaver profiles?
A: No
Q: Every Stat the same like armor save?
A: Yes
Q: Unitbsize 3-10?
A: 3-12
Q: Bladevane gone?
A: Bladevane gies HoW S4, Rending
Q: Other then webway portals deepstriking, no scatter. Once its on the table does it act like it used to, any reserve can enter pls through it?
A: Nope, no other use than DS without scatter.
Q: What is the Detachment in the Codex?
A: 1-2HQ, 2-6Troops, 0-3Elite, 1-6 FA, 0-3 Heavy
Q: What are the special rules for flocks?
A: 3W, 4 A, rending, swarms
Q: What are the special rules for khymera?
A: S4 T4, deamon
Q: What are the special rules for fiends?
A: Rage
Q: What are the special rules for Beastmasters?
A: same but... any beastmaster can get power swords/ Agonisers for 15/25 points. Imagine 12 of them with agonisers. Very expensive but alot of 4+ poison, AP 3 attacks
Q: Isn't the Solitaire a unique Harlequin troupe master?
A: Solitaire = Solarite (scourge champion).
Q: What the changes to hellions, if any? Did the price go down as rumored?
A: 13 p
Q: Are the Helliarch weapon/options still the same?
A: champion can take PGL. hellglaive: +1S, AP5, two handed. Stunclaw: +1S, AP6, ID in challenges
Q: What about Drazhar what happened to him? Did he change?
A: Short answer: yes. No jumping around anymore, can only join Incubi and gives them..... +1 WS. Rampage, otherwise the same.
Q: So hellglaives no longer count as two CCW's?
A: No
Q: Clawed fiends used to have 4 wounds and 4 attacks.... Curious most about the wounds.
A: 3W, 4A
Q: I can DS 6 Scoruge squads without scatter with 4 HB. My real question is can I bring 3 2 man Haemy squads then split them or just 2 HQ's?
A: Just 2 HQs so only 2 of these 6 sourge units can DS without scatter and only if Hemon joins them and have WWP (35p).
Q: Can you please give more details about sslyth? Still 2 wounds? Armor save? Still 35 points? Attacks?
A: Same as before, FnP and Fleet
Q: Do you see any way to make wracks troops?
A: No
Q: Can I take a soul-trap on a Succubus?
A: No
Q: What is the point cost for a blaster in a squad of Kabalites?
A: 15 for blaster, 15 for SC and 20 for DL
Q: Can Bloodbrides take haywire grenades for the entire squad due to them being a squad of hekatrix?
A: nope, only the champion can.
Q: Are wracks the same as before? Points? Stats? Special equipment? Min squad size?
A: the same stats, yes. minimum size 5. 10p. 15 p for LG, 15p for Ossefactor. Acothyst 10p. Acothyst can get Mindphase gauntlet, Flesh G, Sciccorhand, Venom blade, Electro whip. Agoniser, Stinger Hexrifle, LG. Hexrifle is ok now, Sniper, AP4, Precision shot gives ID. So it becomes AP2, ID when that 6 to hit is rolled. thats not bad for 10p.
Q: what is the cost for a klaivex and did his weapons or stats change?
A: incubi are 20 p each now. 3-10 unit size. Klaive is the same, 10p, and same weapon 15p for demiklaives
Q: Can the Succubus take the Huskblade?
A: No, only Archon
Q: The HB is rumored at 25 points, confirm?
A: 25p, confirmed
Q: The rumor I heard was that sslyth are now 25 points... true or are they 35 still?
A: 25 is correct
Q: Most armies updated to 7th lost access to pinning, even the sniper rule lost it. Is sad.
A: Our necrotoxin missiles did that in the old codex, right? Well its gone now.
Q: Webway portals aren't unique?
A: Nope, not unique
Q: Does the Cronos fnp arua thing affect only dark eldar?
A: Only affects DE
Q: Are raiders/venoms etc available in the fast attack choices?
A: And both are fast choices as well.
Q: Do the DE still have Night Vision?
A: Yes
We now have 2 items that give -2 Ld to nearby enemy units. Within 6" and 9". So even with Ld 10 som pinning tests would be great!.
I love the warlord trait that gains you d3 victory points for a glorious death lol. At worst it washes with slay the warlord with the possibility of going ahead of them just for dying
i'm also amazed that they could make the hellions even more bad. Good to remember with them is also that it's very hard to get cover with them as they fly over most obstacles. They weren't particularly good in the current codex either after the fifth edition, but at least you could make them troops and/or buff them with the baron (and even without him, get grenades). Now they're just very expensive and cool models that were time consuming to paint and horrible to transport. Gaming abilities are very minor. One more reason not to get the new codex.
They werent good in 3rd, they werent good in 5th, they arent good in 7th. How many units have been consistently bad for 20 years?
i'm also amazed that they could make the hellions even more bad. Good to remember with them is also that it's very hard to get cover with them as they fly over most obstacles. They weren't particularly good in the current codex either after the fifth edition, but at least you could make them troops and/or buff them with the baron (and even without him, get grenades). Now they're just very expensive and cool models that were time consuming to paint and horrible to transport. Gaming abilities are very minor. One more reason not to get the new codex.
They werent good in 3rd, they werent good in 5th, they arent good in 7th. How many units have been consistently bad for 20 years?
Anyone who complains about Wyches being underwhelming should take a look at Hellions.
but they were never good, arent a troop choice, and are kind of a fringe DE unit.
after being so unpopular for so long i expect them to eventually get dropped from the range at some point. That or massively buffed in 9th
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: I love the warlord trait that gains you d3 victory points for a glorious death lol. At worst it washes with slay the warlord with the possibility of going ahead of them just for dying
So it is 150+ and with the anti psyker and negative leadership stuff in the quote, that would be over 200 points. The court with three medusae (the most flamers you can shoot from the deepstrike) and four sslyths (to make majority toughness 5) would be 175 points. So over 300 points(and almost 400 points with the fear stuff) for your three s4 ap3 flamers with some non power weapon guys that might live to the next turn. Good luck with them
i'm also amazed that they could make the hellions even more bad. Good to remember with them is also that it's very hard to get cover with them as they fly over most obstacles. They weren't particularly good in the current codex either after the fifth edition, but at least you could make them troops and/or buff them with the baron (and even without him, get grenades). Now they're just very expensive and cool models that were time consuming to paint and horrible to transport. Gaming abilities are very minor. One more reason not to get the new codex.
Not at all entirely sure what this discussion is about, but to address an important point about WW portal from the leaks. It allows accurate DS of a unit, and their transport. So you can take 100% madusae if you wanted, slap them all in a raider, DS the raider, and disembark as a raider is now essentially a mobile drop pod. You wouldn't even necessarily need a WW portal for that.
You could even keep them all in the Raider and just flame from it. Running around flaming out of a raider/venom w/ AP3 is no joke.
Your comment about points vs. effect is probably accurate though. If only there were some sort of super raider to make them more survivable. One, perhaps, unlocked by a sort of Uber archon. Perhaps even give that guy a name and some lore.....Maybe I'm just wish listing though.
i'm also amazed that they could make the hellions even more bad. Good to remember with them is also that it's very hard to get cover with them as they fly over most obstacles. They weren't particularly good in the current codex either after the fifth edition, but at least you could make them troops and/or buff them with the baron (and even without him, get grenades). Now they're just very expensive and cool models that were time consuming to paint and horrible to transport. Gaming abilities are very minor. One more reason not to get the new codex.
They werent good in 3rd, they werent good in 5th, they arent good in 7th. How many units have been consistently bad for 20 years?
Celestians say hi.
not saying they dont exist, but they are mighty rare
Anyone who complains about Wyches being underwhelming should take a look at Hellions.
but they were never good, arent a troop choice, and are kind of a fringe DE unit.
after being so unpopular for so long i expect them to eventually get dropped from the range at some point. That or massively buffed in 9th
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: I love the warlord trait that gains you d3 victory points for a glorious death lol. At worst it washes with slay the warlord with the possibility of going ahead of them just for dying
HURT ME MORE!
Hellions should be single-digit points or get a jink save with skilled rider. They're that far away from being adequate.
Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
So... if all I wanted from a Dark Eldar force was lots of cool looking pirate/raider units skimming around the battlefield shooting poisonous stuff (warrior and trueborns) with some wytches, ravagers and reavers (bladevane was so cool. Not saying good, just cool). Maybe a beastpack if I find good looking proxies.
How does it look like? Would I need some Eldar help for anti-tank?
I could maybe pick up two units of haywire scourges, but I'm mainly into Deldar for the non-coven stuff
Cool one is 1 each of hamy talos and cronos. This is fielded as a single unit so the hammy is in with the MC. They get +1 WS and I and hamy auto gets warlord trait
This sounds like a big deal. Obvious question: can the hamy take the webway portal to deep strike this unit?
There are no stipulations on how you can wargear up your hamy so yep
Grimdark wrote: So... if all I wanted from a Dark Eldar force was lots of cool looking pirate/raider units skimming around the battlefield shooting poisonous stuff (warrior and trueborns) with some wytches, ravagers and reavers (bladevane was so cool. Not saying good, just cool). Maybe a beastpack if I find good looking proxies.
How does it look like? Would I need some Eldar help for anti-tank?
I could maybe pick up two units of haywire scourges, but I'm mainly into Deldar for the non-coven stuff
do you want to win in a competitive enviroment or just play around. DE can provide a lot of fun, zooming around here and there if you arent going to be facing IG parking lots or serpent spam. If you are looking for a tournament list, well you probably will have to wait to see, but from the looks of it the answer would be no.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdeptSister wrote: So how do Kabals compete again? The supplement sounds 100% better.
Sorry if its been posted, just really excited about a couple of these.
From: The Dark City.
Formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
Im really!!!! crazy want to do the 5 Talos with Scout and bonus VP for melee kills. Outflanking 5 T7 MC's with FnP with guns sounds crazy. A simple redeploy of 6" with Haywire guns could still be good, Pop a Vehicle turn 1, chance to charge turn 2, if no, get another shot off. Even tho thats a 600 pts unit lol.
The 1st one looks good too! That means those Grots are S6 T6 4+FnP. With 3A +CCW/Flesh gauntlet and charge (rage +2), out manned, your looking at 6+D3 attacks on the charge thats Poison 4 (Most likely will need 3's to wound due to S6) With Shred and ID! rerolling Charge distance.
ClockworkZion wrote: So Bloodbrides can't all roll with Haywires, just the unit Champ. So Haywire Wyches are in fact dead.
Ergo, Wyches are dead. Can see why they'd want to change them from an anti-tank unit (was effective but faintly ridiculous), but sounds like they haven't given them anything to compensate. Would love to know how sales of the kit do now...
That Coven supplement sounds insanely good! Cannae remember, can you ally with yourself & take detachments from the main codex & supplement?
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
Amishprn86 wrote: Sorry if its been posted, just really excited about a couple of these.
From: The Dark City.
Formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
Im really!!!! crazy want to do the 5 Talos with Scout and bonus VP for melee kills. Outflanking 5 T7 MC's with FnP with guns sounds crazy. A simple redeploy of 6" with Haywire guns could still be good, Pop a Vehicle turn 1, chance to charge turn 2, if no, get another shot off. Even tho thats a 600 pts unit lol.
The 1st one looks good too! That means those Grots are S6 T6 4+FnP. With 3A +CCW/Flesh gauntlet and charge (rage +2), out manned, your looking at 6+D3 attacks on the charge thats Poison 4 (Most likely will need 3's to wound due to S6) With Shred and ID! rerolling Charge distance.
One mistake there. The Grots are not S6 T6 etc. You get one of those traits dependent on the D6 dice roll.
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
I agree with this except for the cheaper part. I don't see how you think a 15 point unit that went up to 25 is cheaper.
Amishprn86 wrote: Sorry if its been posted, just really excited about a couple of these.
From: The Dark City.
Spoiler:
Formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
Im really!!!! crazy want to do the 5 Talos with Scout and bonus VP for melee kills. Outflanking 5 T7 MC's with FnP with guns sounds crazy. A simple redeploy of 6" with Haywire guns could still be good, Pop a Vehicle turn 1, chance to charge turn 2, if no, get another shot off. Even tho thats a 600 pts unit lol.
The 1st one looks good too! That means those Grots are S6 T6 4+FnP. With 3A +CCW/Flesh gauntlet and charge (rage +2), out manned, your looking at 6+D3 attacks on the charge thats Poison 4 (Most likely will need 3's to wound due to S6) With Shred and ID! rerolling Charge distance.
I still have to laugh when people act like outflank on a durable combat unit is good. People were drooling over out flanking thunderwolves in the spacewolf release. I don't get it. Just redeploy them 6" and move and possibly run turn one, outflank is random and easily countered. Then there is the issue of having 600+ points off the table that can't assault when it arrives
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
I agree with this except for the cheaper part. I don't see how you think a 15 point unit that went up to 25 is cheaper.
The tax isnt there anymore. It use to be the max you could get was 5 medusa, but you had to take 1 sslyth, 1 urgul, and 1 lhamean.
Now you can just take 3-5 medusa
Formations
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
The 1st one looks good too! That means those Grots are S6 T6 4+FnP. With 3A +CCW/Flesh gauntlet and charge (rage +2), out manned, your looking at 6+D3 attacks on the charge thats Poison 4 (Most likely will need 3's to wound due to S6) With Shred and ID! rerolling Charge distance.
One mistake there. The Grots are not S6 T6 etc. You get one of those traits dependent on the D6 dice roll.
It sounds good, but remember that with a posioned weapon, they are already going to get shred against anything T4 or less. Another case of GW not bothering to look at their rules, just handing them out in redundant fashion.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
Doesnt have any FA, but then it also doesnt have to take any troops
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
I agree with this except for the cheaper part. I don't see how you think a 15 point unit that went up to 25 is cheaper.
The tax isnt there anymore. It use to be the max you could get was 5 medusa, but you had to take 1 sslyth, 1 urgul, and 1 lhamean.
Now you can just take 3-5 medusa
Sure but then say that. The unit was broke for many reasons, not just the tax.
also;
5 medusa + 1 sslyth, 1 urgul, and 1 lhamean from the old book was 135
5 medusa now is 125. So if all your interested in is the medusa it is cheaper now sans tax even if fewer models.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
Doesnt have any FA, but then it also doesnt have to take any troops
I was referring to options more then slot semantics.
If I'm not mistaken, one can take a Detachment from the main Codex and then the second one from a Supplement, since they're both the same faction. Just fulfil the slot requirements and go!
A friend of mine has been in the process of commissioning a Baron led hellion army (60 hellions, Baron + a few other bits and bobs) to be painted over the course of this year. His last few hellion units should arrive later this month. Lucky guy! Just in time for his army to no longer work!
I guess we will be using the 5th edition codex when play.
I am yet again questioning why I play this game. First it was 7th edition causing me doubt. Then the IG codex, and now this.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
Doesnt have any FA, but then it also doesnt have to take any troops
I was referring to options more then slot semantics.
I think not having FA is a hiderance. No scourges, reavers, or razorwings certainly hurts.
but not having to take 2 troops means you dont have to waste points on warriors or wyches.
I can see 2X5warriors in venoms being pretty stock in non coven lists. Not sure if you add the blaster or not.
You could also use 10warriors+cannon with splinter racks in a raider.
Otherwise I dont see any viable way to take troops.
Glad to see those new rumor confirmations. Need to decide if I am still selling the army or not. A non-scattering DSing Tantalos with whatever I put inside along with a detachment of 5 scouting talos, reduced price warriors loaded up in venoms and a DSing Scourge unit with Haywire? This sounds pretty good.
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
I agree with this except for the cheaper part. I don't see how you think a 15 point unit that went up to 25 is cheaper.
Reliability is one thing, but the potential of them firing s5+ ap 3- templates kept opponents on their toes. As an added bonus you can clip vehicles, 2d6+1 armour penetration has knocked a hull point off every now and then. And having two (that are the max amount fitting to venom) gives enough reliability. Having both of them shooting blanks is very unlikely. And about the price. With the tax, the two medusae unit is 90 points, now you get four for 100. The exactly same unit actually costs more points now. The extra bodies are useful though, my llhamean hasn't seen too much tabletop as she is usually the first one to suffer the fiery death in the wreck
OOPS! yes it is a D6 roll for those, But still good!
And I like Scout mostly for the 6" move, But sometimes you need that out flank (IG back table Parking lot comes to mind) Ive had nice things happen due t out flank, Not its not the best, but sometimes its what you need....
Col. Dash wrote: Glad to see those new rumor confirmations. Need to decide if I am still selling the army or not. A non-scattering DSing Tantalos with whatever I put inside along with a detachment of 5 scouting talos, reduced price warriors loaded up in venoms and a DSing Scourge unit with Haywire? This sounds pretty good.
Who has 5 Talos? I have 2 and I never used more than 1 in a game just for fun.
The DSing Tantalos is going to offer some fun. But how many people have a Tantalos and where did the rules go, it seems they were pulled by forgeworld for a possible update.
Col. Dash wrote: Glad to see those new rumor confirmations. Need to decide if I am still selling the army or not. A non-scattering DSing Tantalos with whatever I put inside along with a detachment of 5 scouting talos, reduced price warriors loaded up in venoms and a DSing Scourge unit with Haywire? This sounds pretty good.
Who has 5 Talos? I have 2 and I never used more than 1 in a game just for fun.
The DSing Tantalos is going to offer some fun. But how many people have a Tantalos and where did the rules go, it seems they were pulled by forgeworld for a possible update.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
oh you mean their day one dlc? With the 4 pages that could have easily been added into the main book? Ork players told you about this months ago. Lets not pretend this isnt the new modus operandi for them here on out.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
I have to agree with you. At first I thought it was lame that there was virtually no bleed between the two books. Other supplements (Orks, wolves) brought a lot of tasty stuff for those factions to use.
But the more I think about it, the more I like this way better. I have exactly zero coven units in my dark eldar force right now, and I plan to keep it that way. Did coven units get really awesome? Yes, certainly. But it's not like having them absent in my list is ruining some great synergy that would otherwise be present if I had the supplement. This is the way supplements should operate, IMO- related to the main codex, but different enough in playstyle and units that they effectively stand alone.
I AM a bit annoyed that the covens get like 9 formations and my kabalites get zero. And it does seem that the edge in power is definitely on the side of the covens, but that I can forgive. I don't think they completely blow them out of the water.
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
oh you mean their day one dlc? With the 4 pages that could have easily been added into the main book? Ork players told you about this months ago. Lets not pretend this isnt the new modus operandi for them here on out.
Sounds like there might be as many as 10-15 pages of stuff!? (amazing I know).
Though I'm interested in the extra fluff it should bring.
Can the Haemonculus in a coven detachment take a WWP?
If so, that formation of Haemy, talos and chronos with WWP can be pretty nasty if they form one unit. DS without scatter with 2 of those MCs with his FnP is no joke I assume...
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
I have to agree with you. At first I thought it was lame that there was virtually no bleed between the two books. Other supplements (Orks, wolves) brought a lot of tasty stuff for those factions to use.
But the more I think about it, the more I like this way better. I have exactly zero coven units in my dark eldar force right now, and I plan to keep it that way. Did coven units get really awesome? Yes, certainly. But it's not like having them absent in my list is ruining some great synergy that would otherwise be present if I had the supplement. This is the way supplements should operate, IMO- related to the main codex, but different enough in playstyle and units that they effectively stand alone.
I AM a bit annoyed that the covens get like 9 formations and my kabalites get zero. And it does seem that the edge in power is definitely on the side of the covens, but that I can forgive. I don't think they completely blow them out of the water.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you. It dident bring orks tastey stuff to use, it brought the taste of bile to our mouths when we realized our codex was actually 100 dollars instead of 50, for 4 pages they could have easily added into the codex.
I'll probably still take Wyches w/Hekatrix and haywire. Throwing a HWgrenade and then assaulting with one can still do 2 HP to vehicles pretty easily and they can successfully assault enemies that have been weakened by Venom fire. They'll have less utility but still mostly the same old Wyches.
Anyone know what flickerfields do on a venom? Still 5++?
mercury14 wrote: I'll probably still take Wyches w/Hekatrix and haywire. Throwing a HWgrenade and then assaulting with one can still do 2 HP to vehicles pretty easily and they can successfully assault enemies that have been weakened by Venom fire. They'll have less utility but still mostly the same old Wyches.
Anyone know what flickerfields do on a venom? Still 5++?
On the math:
1 thrown = 3+ to hit (2/3 chance), 0.66 hits > 4/6 chance for glance, 1/6 chance of pen, so 0.55 HP damage, (.11 pens)
Assault, 3+ to hit (2/3 chance), 0.66 hits > 4/6 chance for glance, 1/6 chance of pen, so 0.55 HP damage, (.11 pens)
Average Total = 1.1HP damage (.22 pens)
So is this just looking like a continuation of the pattern we've seen all year?
[Xenos] Tyranids: very poorly balanced and and received as one of the worst GW releases to date
[IoM] Astra Militarum: good new units, great internal and external balance, widely regarded as a buff, positively received
[Xenos] Orks: terrible release, terrible internal balancing, most issues prevalent in the prior dex remaining unchanged, badly received
[IoM] Space Wolves: decently balanced, strong new units, good rebalancing of units, general improvement to army wide balance, well received
[IoM] Grek Knights: no new units, dex sized down massively, GK core buffed immensely, truer to the theme of GK than before, better overall internal balance, positively received
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
I guess we'll have to see if Scourges, 3x Elites, and court of the Archon are enough to carry our entire army through the list building stage. It's looking pretty dismal as is. Beastpack was the only thing arguably needing a nerf, nothing else was game breaking in comparison even to the weakest codexes, and what sucks is that all the changes have just been dumbing the army down and taking less customisation and ingame choice out of the hands of the player.
I want to know exactly what to do win my 9 Venoms. After the first 3 in Elites (which taking means no Grots or Mandrakes) do I have to spam the worst unit shown so far in the codex just to include my Venoms? Seems a poor change if so. Has anyone seen if we can still take Wrack troops? As this is the big question on my mind right now.
If not, I think for me I'm just going to stick with the 5E dex. No new units, crappy new rules, badly written changes, less customisation than before, much less diversity in troops, loss of so many models (and good/crucial ones at that), to me wall this just cannot be made up for by getting playable Court+Mandrakes (and both of these remain to be seen how playable they actually are). I stomached it for the Nid release, they are my tournament army and at least we got new models... And for this to be looking worse than the Nid release, says a lot. As of yet I've seen zero reason to upgrade my dex to this new version, and many reasons to go down kicking and screaming with the old. To those who feel differently, exactly what so far has you excited about the new dex, in case I missed some positives so that I can accurately compare the two for myself.
Oaka wrote: Is the Beastpack unit terrible because they have new rules or terrible because the Baron doesn't exist anymore?
Both by the looks of it - its the classic double nerf. Both the Beasts themselves have been made worse and removing the Baron means they can no longer be the lynchpin of an army.
A friend of mine has been in the process of commissioning a Baron led hellion army (60 hellions, Baron + a few other bits and bobs) to be painted over the course of this year. His last few hellion units should arrive later this month. Lucky guy! Just in time for his army to no longer work!
I guess we will be using the 5th edition codex when play.
I am yet again questioning why I play this game. First it was 7th edition causing me doubt. Then the IG codex, and now this.
I also love the day 1 money squeeze DLC, because why? Is there any explanation except zero respect for your customers? Dex has nothing new in it, least cthey ould have done is include the 4 page formation to an already overpriced codex...
Who remembers when a codex announcement meant a likely improvement and something to look forward to, including new units? What do I have to be happy about here? I didnt think they could do worse than the Nid dex, but looks like they may have outdone themselves slightly with this one.
If I had a bunch of Hellions already assembled and painted, I would simply use them as counts-as Scourges with haywire blasters and flip the table at anyone who objects.
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
What?
From Mandraks on one hand to Venom-spam on the other, the old DE-dex is pretty much the textbook example of internal-balance failure. And why I know that tournament-players lament the loss of Haywire-Wyches, it was a unit utterly at odds with what it was supposed to be doing as a result of inept game-design.
New one seems much sleeker in the "game-play" department, even if it got its fluff taken out of it, as have all 7th Ed. books thus far.
jamopower wrote: Hellions were great in fifth edition with Baron buffs, pain tokens and the majority cover rules still in effect.
Also medusae in venom have been one of my favourite units for a long time. Sad that the medusae were actually also nerfed. +10 points and the strenght d6+1 and apd6 was better than s4 ap3. Only bonus is that you don't have to pay the llhamean and ur-ghul tax anymore.
I think they're better now, more reliable, and much cheaper. And easier to take.
I agree with this except for the cheaper part. I don't see how you think a 15 point unit that went up to 25 is cheaper.
The tax isnt there anymore. It use to be the max you could get was 5 medusa, but you had to take 1 sslyth, 1 urgul, and 1 lhamean.
Now you can just take 3-5 medusa
your math on court is wrong.
it used to be:
1-2 lham
1-2 medusae
1-3 sslyth
1-5 ghul
15 Scourges, leaving him with 45+ unusable painted models, and an army completely different to the one he bought. I guess you could do max size scourge units, for maximum fail. You still can't even close to fit as many in the dex as you could with Hellions.
Shuppet, what was this "close to perfect internal balance in the previous dex" you're referring to? Do you realize how many DE units in the old dex never saw the table because they were horrible?
And Beast units are fine. People got too used to Baron abuse IMO. Khymera getting +1T and -2 pts was worth dropping back to 5++ is a lateral move. Against S4 attacks, it's the exact same .22 of a Khymera killed except now they're 17% cheaper for it... So they're objectively better. Beastmasters are the same. The fiend is slightly nerfed but like -10 pts so about the same. The birds got nerfed (good, they were silly), but they came down in price by a whopping 33%.
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
What?
From Mandraks on one hand to Venom-spam on the other, the old DE-dex is pretty much the textbook example of internal-balance failure.
[Xenos] Tyranids: very poorly balanced and and received as one of the worst GW releases to date
[IoM] Astra Militarum: good new units, great internal and external balance, widely regarded as a buff, positively received
[Xenos] Orks: terrible release, terrible internal balancing, most issues prevalent in the prior dex remaining unchanged, badly received
[IoM] Space Wolves: decently balanced, strong new units, good rebalancing of units, general improvement to army wide balance, well received
[IoM] Grek Knights: no new units, dex sized down massively, GK core buffed immensely, truer to the theme of GK than before, better overall internal balance, positively received
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
I agree with the general sentiment that IoM armies are favoured by GW, but the previous DE codex having perfect internal balance? Really? I don't think SW was that well received, good selection of new models for sure (but questionable model designs in cases) but I'd say overall it was lukewarm. There were also plenty of GK players miffed at losing certain units, again I'd say lukewarm. IG aside all recent codexes have been bland/homogenised. DE doesn't look amazing and there are some unnecessary nerfs but some needed buffs and I think what we get will be a bit better than what we have.
Oaka wrote: Is the Beastpack unit terrible because they have new rules or terrible because the Baron doesn't exist anymore?
Both by the looks of it - its the classic double nerf. Both the Beasts themselves have been made worse and removing the Baron means they can no longer be the lynchpin of an army.
Definitely
Flocks were nerfed hard with less wounds, less attacks and it looks like no rending
Kymera got their invuln nerfed
lack of baron means you no longer have a way to get grenades or stealth
TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
and the new PFP is not a buff.
old PFP- you bought 3 cheap haems for an HQ slot and got 3 pain tokens to start for some untis for fnp before game even began.
New pfp- you get the same pfp on turn 3, same of course being the 5+ fnp that was the nerfed version of fnp from 6th on.
Its surviving the first few turns that are critical for DE, not whatever remnants are left turn 3 all of the sudden being able to shrug off minor wounds.
Given the state of wyches last edition that a core element of one of the DE sects pretty much was further kicked down the stairs by its evil stepmother GW is somewhat shocking.
At this point the only possible redemption are some future wyche formations in some other book yet to be released, but that's fairly far fetched at this point.
I don't feel so bad off since I already have about 30 wracks and 10 grots(yay for isle of blood rat ogres...), and a crap ton of scourges, as they appear to be the new hotness, or blackness, or voidness. Also have 2 courts, and 4 clawed fiends, yay for buying crap no one wanted over the years...
Xeriapt wrote: Feels like a bit of a dirty tactic making the supplement have a bunch of rules and formations that sound really good.
Heres the codex, but, if you want the good stuff you have to buy this other book too.
I honestly don't think the coven supplement is necessary. You can make a better all around army with the codex. Coven has zero access to FA.
I have to agree with you. At first I thought it was lame that there was virtually no bleed between the two books. Other supplements (Orks, wolves) brought a lot of tasty stuff for those factions to use.
But the more I think about it, the more I like this way better. I have exactly zero coven units in my dark eldar force right now, and I plan to keep it that way. Did coven units get really awesome? Yes, certainly. But it's not like having them absent in my list is ruining some great synergy that would otherwise be present if I had the supplement. This is the way supplements should operate, IMO- related to the main codex, but different enough in playstyle and units that they effectively stand alone.
I AM a bit annoyed that the covens get like 9 formations and my kabalites get zero. And it does seem that the edge in power is definitely on the side of the covens, but that I can forgive. I don't think they completely blow them out of the water.
Kabalites do get a formation in the DE book. Its the formation that opens those 6 FA slots. The Coven book is awesome and glad I ordered it. As for no access to FA....2 CADS and you have everything....Not sure I see the sour grapes there. I think there are very viable lists in both books as well as combined.
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
I'm sorry what? I've literally never heard anyone say that about DE, ever.
The 5th DE codex suffered massively from Phil Kelly syndrome, I.E. Horrible internal balance with massive hit and miss units. IC Mandrake with the worst rules ever written to be the worst infiltrator that couldn't even join his other friends of worst infiltrators in the game. Massively over costed Reavers, Hellions, tons of bloated war gear with little to no use at all. Nothing in the elite slot (except for sometimes 1 rare unit of Incubi) was ever worth taking but Trueborns. Nothing in heavy support could really compete with the Ravager. Spamming nothing but Trueborns, Ravagers and Venoms was dominant, not because people lacked imagination, but everything else was quite lackluster compared those choices. Eldar allies with Baron beast pack came later, but still, the Trueborns/Ravager/Venom spam was still in the list with beast packs.
blaktoof wrote: I agree, I do see viable lists and there is some good variety.
Just still shocked that wyches didn't see any love.
Would have been nice if all three sects, coven, wyche, and kabalite- had some decent options to build armies from.
I think 2/3rds of those have goodness, the other is much less competitive it seems so far.
Another codex made to bring all units in line. Underwhelming. Uninspired.
I'll play DE as allies. Here they fit quite well, but not as a stand alone army.
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
What?
From Mandraks on one hand to Venom-spam on the other, the old DE-dex is pretty much the textbook example of internal-balance failure. And why I know that tournament-players lament the loss of Haywire-Wyches, it was a unit utterly at odds with what it was supposed to be doing as a result of inept game-design.
New one seems much sleeker in the "game-play" department, even if it got its fluff taken out of it, as have all 7th Ed. books thus far.
Uh what? Did you play the dex or is this just what you saw more commonly in the List Building section? There was almost not a single unplayable unit in the 5E dex other than Mandrakes. Incubi and Talos were probably next on the scale of competiveness, and still not fully unusable, especially not on release. Almost the entire rest of the dex bar a couple (out of many) characters were playable, in fact almost any of them playable up to the highest level of play, with our dex having so many different possible units in competitive play were nobody could bat an eyelid if you went with Reavers or a Beastpack in your fast attack, Flyers or Ravagers in your Heavyset, warriors, why he's or Wracks in your troops, Blasterborn in your Elites or just more Wyches, Haemy or Baron as your HQ, Raiders or Venoms as your transports etc. and this is all at extremely high level of play. Grots, Vect, Dais, etc all being viable options, we had one of the most flexible dexes in the game, and although it lacked external balance and got roflstomped by a few armies (our Eldar being nigh untouchable, particularly for us), internally it was almost as close as you can get to a perfectly balanced codex. 6th and 7th changed the way WWP works, on its actual release it was even better. Complaining about the internal balance of the last dex is to me, the definition of being a typical whiny gamer unsatisfied with anything GW provides.
It's not about tournament players being unhappy, even as a casual player there is no reason to be happy about these changes that I can fathom. You were very vague, what exactly is it about this release that makes it so much better and sleeker than the one before it? The hardcover book? Or do you mean the streamlining on certain rules, completely taking playskill and ingame decisions out of the equation for things like PfP, and the fact that there will be much less choices in certain unit upgrades? This is the only interpretation possible that I can see for the army being "sleeker", but I fail to see how it is a good thing, for neither internal balance nor unit versatility.
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mercury14 wrote: Shuppet, what was this "close to perfect internal balance in the previous dex" you're referring to? Do you realize how many DE units in the old dex never saw the table because they were horrible?
This is exactly what I'm saying. Please name for me the units that never saw the table, bar Mandrakes and the lesser IC's. And almost name for me a better example of an internally balanced codex from 5E onwards.
Oaka wrote: Is the Beastpack unit terrible because they have new rules or terrible because the Baron doesn't exist anymore?
Both by the looks of it - its the classic double nerf. Both the Beasts themselves have been made worse and removing the Baron means they can no longer be the lynchpin of an army.
Definitely
Flocks were nerfed hard with less wounds, less attacks and it looks like no rending
Kymera got their invuln nerfed
lack of baron means you no longer have a way to get grenades or stealth
Yes...they do have rending still and 4 attacks so still 5 on the charge.
Also don't forget that one of the guys posting rumors who was fairly accurate (cant remember his name) said to expect a Wych Cult book too but it might be down the road a little due to the rush to get all the other codex's out. I also would not be surprised to see Vect out there....somewhere
blaktoof wrote: I have daemonettes what I filed off the mouths, and added a small sized GS breast to match the slaaneshi mono boob and call them whoa-mandrakes.
blaktoof wrote: TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.
Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes
blaktoof wrote: TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.
Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes
I hear ya, just with every ork getting grenades pretty much, I thought that had changed. I was wrong.
[Xenos] Tyranids: very poorly balanced and and received as one of the worst GW releases to date
[IoM] Astra Militarum: good new units, great internal and external balance, widely regarded as a buff, positively received
[Xenos] Orks: terrible release, terrible internal balancing, most issues prevalent in the prior dex remaining unchanged, badly received
[IoM] Space Wolves: decently balanced, strong new units, good rebalancing of units, general improvement to army wide balance, well received
[IoM] Grek Knights: no new units, dex sized down massively, GK core buffed immensely, truer to the theme of GK than before, better overall internal balance, positively received
[Xenos] Dark Eldar: close to perfect internal balance of previous dex completely thrown out the window, loss of many flavourful army changing units, no new units at all, massive nerfs to well balanced not OP units, badly recieved???
I agree with the general sentiment that IoM armies are favoured by GW, but the previous DE codex having perfect internal balance? Really? I don't think SW was that well received, good selection of new models for sure (but questionable model designs in cases) but I'd say overall it was lukewarm. There were also plenty of GK players miffed at losing certain units, again I'd say lukewarm. IG aside all recent codexes have been bland/homogenised. DE doesn't look amazing and there are some unnecessary nerfs but some needed buffs and I think what we get will be a bit better than what we have.
I would say that all those codexes got trashed by people online, every single one of them, without exception... all for the same reasons "lots characters, why wasnt this buffed, why was this nerfed and so on"
take orks... its a huge buff with the new codex, huge increase in # of playable competitive lists, they gained instant death CC and shooting weapons, gained so much stuff from the supplement, and people still complain as in the above.
Yes...they do have rending still and 4 attacks so still 5 on the charge.
Also don't forget that one of the guys posting rumors who was fairly accurate (cant remember his name) said to expect a Wych Cult book too but it might be down the road a little due to the rush to get all the other codex's out. I also would not be surprised to see Vect out there....somewhere
I suppose flocks are ok, but going to 3 wounds from 5 is pretty hard. They are cheaper at least.
As for the Wych cult, one would hope they would try to do something. But with wyches starting out so terrible, it would be tough to make anything out of them. Bloodbrides and hellions are worse. Reavers have some potential, so perhaps they could make Suppliment Reavers, but without a succi on a bike, I dont think anyone would buy in.
blaktoof wrote: TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.
Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes
I hear ya, just with every ork getting grenades pretty much, I thought that had changed. I was wrong.
Orks get them, because the Emperor knows they can't use the damn things. Initiative 2 isn't helped by grenades.
blaktoof wrote: TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.
Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes
Canon fodder conscript with initiative 3 for 3 points gets frag grenades. Dedicated assault jump infantry hellions with sky board for 13 points gets nothing... GW logic!
blaktoof wrote: TBH i am still shocked at the lack of assault grenades on assault units, and wyches not decreasing in points and / or gaining some buff.
Welcome to GW. IoM units get grenades, xenos and Chaos dont.
Grenades are actually the emperors divine light shining illumiting the enemy in the bushes
Canon fodder conscript with initiative 3 for 3 points gets frag grenades. Dedicated assault jump infantry hellions with sky board for 13 points gets nothing... GW logic!
or mutilators, warp talons, possessed, incubi, grotesques, wracks, mandrakes
Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.
I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.
But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?
I still have trouble getting over the fact that equipment with the word 'grenade' in it, doesn't count as grenades.. I mean Plague Marines throw voodoo heads infected with AIDS and that count as a grenade?
PhillyT wrote: I disagree with SHUPPET concerning the ork codex balance. It got better with this new codex. It isn't terrible.
Well actually then, we are in agreement, as I agree it's an improvement as well. I just think it's a very marginal one internally, going from bad shape to slightly better, and good cause to be disappointed after what, a 5 year wait was it? When my Ork friends explain their un satisfaction with the codex I can't actually contest it any way, because I know if it was me I'd be pretty deflated by the whole thing as well. It's a pretty meh upgrade, with almost a million things that could have been balanced better just on first glance of the dex, with as always a bunch of unplayable trash. Far more than anythinin the 5E DE codex that people are claiming had terrible internal balance lool, I can see where the complaints stem fromEspecially considering the money squeeze shenanigans involved with that release being off the ricter.
docdoom77 wrote: So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.
I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.
blaktoof wrote: I have daemonettes what I filed off the mouths, and added a small sized GS breast to match the slaaneshi mono boob and call them whoa-mandrakes.
I like it. I may follow suit.
I've done this with talos mini arms to make wracks.
and plan on doing it with fire arms (not sure of source) to make womandrakes.
SHUPPET wrote: Who remembers when a codex announcement meant a likely improvement and something to look forward to, including new units? What do I have to be happy about here?
Exactly!
I spent US$220 on pre-ordered items for this release and I feel like a fething idiot. I know I only have myself to blame, but I got caught up in the excitement of the Dark Eldar update and didn't apply some common sense before ordering the codex, cards, and the new models. I am sure the models will be lovely, but as leaks about the codex and supplement are revealed I am becoming more and more dissatisfied with my purchase. I don't want to even play my army with this codex.
Yeah, this is some bad knee jerking on my part, but I felt this way about the IG codex at this stage of pre-release, and when that book came out the disappointment carried on. So, any hope that my opinion will change on the DE codex once I have it in hand is fleeting.
This process just isn't fun any more. I'm not quitting the game or selling my armies, but GW has lost any sort of impulse buys from me until there are some fundamental changes within the company.
SHUPPET wrote: Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.
I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.
But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?
I think you're the one misunderstanding poor internal balance here.
We aren't measuring their power from a tournament standpoint alone, it's more simply due to the fact that if you took a squad of 9 Reavers with upgrades you where almost guaranteed to never make their points back, so why bother if you could get 2x5 warriors with Venom instead for same price? Speaking of the Venom, did you EVER see anyone in the world who DIDN'T get the no-brainer upgrade for 10 points for a splinter cannon? Why would you ever take scourges when their insane prices would only handicap your list with subpar performance and now your list lacks a Venom. Why would you ever take a Talos when the Talos was slower than a sloth and your army desperately needed AT which the Ravager did, so 1 Talos = 1 less Ravager, which you couldn't afford with your lackluster AT. The list goes on and on, but as others have mentioned before, the DE 5th codex is the textbook example of horrible internal balance.
@darktraveller I feel you man. At best, this codex will be on par with the last one, except require a bunch of money to keep playing the same army at the same level, by buying all the new models they decided to make playable as well as the new codex that allows me to do it.
Why not just leave the playable units playable and focus on fixing the trash tier units? Because no we have to rework our entire armies, and this is exactly what GW needs to stay afloat. It's ridiculous to me how GWs customers have acclimatised to this and just suck it down like soup nowadays, expecting that if you see any sort of improvement on the competive scene you have no reason to complain, no matter how many models your dex limits you to do so and no matter what the cost needed or how much of your old army you need to replace just I have a playable build. The fact that they nerfed even a single unit at was playable pans clearly not OP shows the mind state of both GW and it's supporters for this release, except they didn't just nerf one they nerfed plenty. I can't get behind the people calling this an improvement. At best, a side grade, a very expensive side grade at that, which is not an improvement at all. And what's far more likely is that we just lost a much better dex for a linear ass dex highly limited by its FOC and lack of valid troops. But hey I guess that remains to be seen, just going off the info we have so far though this is how it's looking.
docdoom77 wrote: So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.
I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.
Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.
Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.
I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.
If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.
Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.
Some of the artifacts seem very interesting. There is an armor that gives -2 leadership to units in 6'' and archangel of pain that is one use only, all units in 9" take a -2 leadership test and takes wounds equal to the difference. I was thinking of having wraithguard with a spiritseer drop down with no scatter thanks to the web way portal. Between the -2 leadership debuffs and the spiritseers psychic shriek you can do a lot of damage and then you could open the archangel of pain to deal with everyone in a 9'' radius.
docdoom77 wrote: So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.
I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.
Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.
Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.
Kroot with the rifle barrels shortened and the blades cut off to represent baleblast.
docdoom77 wrote: So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.
I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.
Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.
Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.
Kroot with the rifle barrels shortened and the blades cut off to represent baleblast.
Also a thought. I'm gonna have to give this a good, long think.
SHUPPET wrote: @darktraveller I feel you man. At best, this codex will be on par with the last one, except require a bunch of money to keep playing the same army at the same level, by buying all the new models they decided to make playable as well as the new codex that allows me to do it.
Why not just leave the playable units playable and focus on fixing the trash tier units? Because no we have to rework our entire armies, and this is exactly what GW needs to stay afloat. It's ridiculous to me how GWs customers have acclimatised to this and just suck it down like soup nowadays, expecting that if you see any sort of improvement on the competive scene you have no reason to complain, no matter how many models your dex limits you to do so and no matter what the cost needed or how much of your old army you need to replace just I have a playable build. The fact that they nerfed even a single unit at was playable pans clearly not OP shows the mind state of both GW and it's supporters for this release, except they didn't just nerf one they nerfed plenty. I can't get behind the people calling this an improvement. At best, a side grade, a very expensive side grade at that, which is not an improvement at all. And what's far more likely is that we just lost a much better dex for a linear ass dex highly limited by its FOC and lack of valid troops. But hey I guess that remains to be seen, just going off the info we have so far though this is how it's looking.
Other than the beast-star no longer being viable, but with the change to 7th it was already mostly dead ie it can only hold 1 objective and was not obj secure. and wyches losing haywire, I think the playable units are still playable.
Kabalites are cheaper, so the cost of a 5 man venom squad with blaster is actually the same as before.
Trueborn are cheaper- IIRC blasters are also now cheaper. Loss of carbines is not fun, but with venoms and splinter rifles on warriors many people took trueborn with blasters anyways, so it was just a nerf to possible variety given the buff to splinter racks, but not a real nerf to something that was there.
Ravagers did get hit, cost hike, and it looks like they lost aerial assault so one of the dark lances is now snap shotting if the thing moves, no idea why that was done.
Vect although Iconic, was not really viable due to cost so very few people used him, sad that he is currently gone but not really going to miss the option to take something I never took, or saw since the release of DE being fielded.
Wyches only real viable niche last edition was haywire, which is gone and they received nothing to make up for it. for a long time people didn't even run wyches even with haywire so its not that huge of a loss. Ironically you could take an archon with 12 lhameans and just use wyche models, you dont get combat drugs but 3 attacks on the charge that wounds on a 2+ is no joke for 10 pts. I think it will be hard to pass up the 4 medusae and archon in venom with wwp "bomb" though for the lhameans.
although beaststar may be dead there is not the option to take MSU beasts with the 6 FA detachment, essentially breaking the old beast-star down into multiple smaller units for target saturation/clearing fast small OB SEC units
If anything kabalite lists look to be going back to more original lists of just a bunch of kabalite warriors cruising in raiders shooting stuff, and some venoms with trueborn and blasters, and ravagers. because come on, why take a void raven for 200pts for AT when you can get a Ravager for 125. Which when you look at it is what competitive dark eldar lists have always been if allies are not included. so no real net change. less cost on warriors and trueborn and archon is just offset by the increased cost on venoms/raiders/ravagers netting close to no change in models in an army.
pretre wrote: I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.
If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.
Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.
As frustrating as this is to read it is true. However, when you do collect an army and not a list, and see elements of that army languish year after year, and go through two editions without any improvements (wyches) it is hard not to get resentful of the entire process.
My sig is out of date, and I probably have closer to 10,000 points of DE now, and this codex change tastes like a breath of rancid, hobo exhaust.
docdoom77 wrote: So, now that Mandrakes don't suck does anyone have any good ideas for counts as Mandrakes? I don't want to pay out the butt for finecast.
I was thinking either Daemonettes or Dark Elf Sisters of Slaughter might work well.
Warhammer Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think Wood Elf Wardancers would work too.
Spirit Hosts are pretty cool.
I think for Wood Elves, the Dryads are a better fit.
I use Dryads for Haemonculi and a base for a lot of my Grotesques, so I don't really look to them.
They're also a little big I think for Mandrakes.
I may pick up some Wardancers myself for Mandrakes, then some Spirit Hosts for something because they look cool. xD
What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters
What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin
SHUPPET wrote: Because the prevalent issues from the prior codex were left untouched, with a loss of build versatility, and a terrible release being spread over the course of a month includi day 1 DLC and white Dwarf shenanigans, for a dex that May or may not be stronger than the last competitively, but really no improvement at all to the overall flexibility of the race. This is why Ork players were and are still disappointed with their dex.
I think a lot of you are confusing internal and external balance, and just seeing someone mention the word balance and assuming "balancewhinealert" without really comprehending the issue at hand. How a dex fares in the competitive scene should be the last thing on a checklist, as it really doesn't matter if you have only 2 viable units + mandatory troops in the entire dex to do it with. A well written dex is not something dictated by its tournament performance, and being given an updated badly written dex is a fair enough reason to be disappointed in your dex release, especially when you know you won't be getting another shot at it for at least the next 2 years, and that you likely already waited 2 years (or many, many more) for the current one.
But wait, instadeath CC and ZORKANAUGHTS, I have no right to complain about the prevalent balance issues in my dex, terrible release and loss of a bunch of flavourful characters right, I just need to get out there and spend a bunch of cash so that I can play my army once again at a similar level to my least one? This is what it's really about right?
I think you're the one misunderstanding poor internal balance here.
We aren't measuring their power from a tournament standpoint alone, it's more simply due to the fact that if you took a squad of 9 Reavers with upgrades you where almost guaranteed to never make their points back, so why bother if you could get 2x5 warriors with Venom instead for same price? Speaking of the Venom, did you EVER see anyone in the world who DIDN'T get the no-brainer upgrade for 10 points for a splinter cannon? Why would you ever take scourges when their insane prices would only handicap your list with subpar performance and now your list lacks a Venom. Why would you ever take a Talos when the Talos was slower than a sloth and your army desperately needed AT which the Ravager did, so 1 Talos = 1 less Ravager, which you couldn't afford with your lackluster AT. The list goes on and on, but as others have mentioned before, the DE 5th codex is the textbook example of horrible internal balance.
Upon its release when WWP worked differently, the Talos was much more viable and much more common. Reavers were also much more popular too. These are definitely not units that never saw the table. Scourges are another crappy unit actually, I'll give you that, forgot about them. The nobrained upgrade for Venom is pretty irrelevant to the overall picture here, I mean the balance between Venoms and Raiders is quite well done and both were extremely popular, I mentioned a bunch of units like this competing quite heavily for the same slots and roles which you completely ignored, making your list of "and it goes on", an extremely poor response to this. So many different units were extremely popular and saw play and many many people had their own take on DE, every dex will always have one or two "best competitive builds" but ours was one of the most flexible with it being easy to fit almost any unit in the codex in without it ruining your build. Barely any dexes can say the same. The answer to Reavers issues in 7th, where it's still very playable regardless, is not to nerf them into the ground. I think our 7E release is going to be quite a rude awakening to some people who insist our 5E dex was unbalanced internally, in comparison to the rest of 40k it was possibly the best balanced dex in the game, it's hard to realise this from a drivers perspective because the flaws are more obvious, but where we have Mandrakes and Scourges, every other dex has just as many or more units that will never, ever hit the table, and have much less versatility in options that are safe to play without it being a ridiculous inclusion. Mandrakes are highlighted because they are so ridiculously bad, but at the end f the day, they are just as unplayable as CSM Warp Talons, possessed, Mutilators, Helbrutes, raptors, forgefiends, etc, (as were upon release, I can't keep up with the recent influx of data slates I'm sure some of them maybe somewhat playable today), and as written upon release, none of them would ever see any play in a sensible list ever. The same cannot be said about our less competitive models, with Grots - incubi occasionally appearing in Elites, Flyers being good in the HS, 3 very common different troop choices between whacks warriors and Wyches, all very playable and spam able in their own right, varied HQs from baron, Sliscus, Archons, Haemys, Vect, all consistently getting used, even Hexatrix aren't unplayable giving you very good and mobile Agoniser support to deal with beastpack tarpits (namely WK, other MCs, and bike blobs) while still continuing HWG saturation and threats. Similar, can be said for Reavers, And they got used quite often regardless. I think calling the last one unbalanced internally is silly - especially when the underlying statement was that the balance has degraded, which is almost undeniably the way it's looking,
SHUPPET wrote: Because now we have to rework our entire armies
I think you must have missed the last 20 years if you think this is in anyway a new thing...
edit: That being said, I think it's a bit early to start the weeping and gnashing. Insert anecdote about the Codex: Eldar thread here.
Kind of exactly my point. We have gotten so accustomed to being served crap, and now that it's worse than ever it's still being accepted. Would it be so mucho to expect that a Wych cult army all riding Venoms would still be playable with the rollover? Why not leave the things that work and fix the ones that don't. These models were by nobody's standards OP. Except maybe a Knight player but they don't get to complain.
Also, I've mentioned several times that it remains to be seen, and that I'm merely commenting on the info at hand, aka what this thread is for.
pretre wrote: I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.
If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.
Collect diversely and you'll find you welcome edition/codex changes as a breath of fresh air.
I'm going to agree and then disagree
while I have always tried to collect a bunch of different types of models for my army, so I have had grots, a razorwing, raiders with dissies, all the beasts, hellions, scourges, large units of wracks, tons of character models, incubi and the archon court. I had 5 old mandrakes, they are somewhere.
What really bugs me is the lack of options for basic troops.
Warriors are fieldable in 2 variants. 5 in a venom with a blaster or 10 in a raider with a splinter cannon. Dark lances on warriors havent been viable since 3rd. Foot warriors havent been fieldable since about the same time. In no circumstance is it ever a smart idea to take a sybarite
Wyches havent been competitive in anything but suicide grenade squads since 5th. I kept my large units of 7-9 with a hextrix + haemi for combat longer than most and I paid for it. Now there is no reason to take them.
I want to collect cinematic models, I want each one of my units to have a sergent upgrade with some wargear, a blast pistol or power sword, or agonizer or something. But tell me, is there any reason to take any upgrades on any DE units?
I have dozens of HQ models, probably 11 Archons alone. All looking different and with different weapon options. I use to field a different one each battle. I had 2 on bikes. Now I can't field half of them as their weapon/mount choices dont exist. I have to field an HQ, but at the moment they are looking like a tax best to be avoided.
So moving forward:
Venoms, Scourges, maybe a grot bully unit, and an Archon Court(I'm excited about it). With an archon that is doing what exactly. Ill find out, but he might just wait in reserve to try and prevent giving up slay the warlord.
I think exergy gets it. I mean, you could own every unit in the dex, is there really that much to be happy about if every time one model becomes playable another becomes equally unusable? Especially when you need to buy a new overpriced codex just to continue playing at all?
BTW: Why are people saying that if the Ravagers move you can only snapshot? They are Fast Skimmers in the previous codex (FAQ) and i haven't seen anything that takes away from that in the new codex, so they can move 6" and still shoot everything.
What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters
What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin
Im not sure hellions go better. Loss of an attack per model and the ability to get grenades does get made up for by a reduction in points.
Reavers lost their signature flyover attack, and got a CC charge ability for less points. Not sure they got better
I keep looking at our AT ability and frowning. Dark Lances getting more expensive across the board, Ravagers getting more expensive to boot and losing flickerfields, the old nightshield, and aerial assault hurts bad.
Scourges make short work of landraiders, from about the same range, but DE ability to take out medium armor is going to be severly lacking.
Archons use to be duelists. Now they lack a way to get an AP2 weapon. What exactly is the point of a CCmonster with str3 and AP3? I'm definitly sure they did not get better.
pretre wrote: I have said it before and I'll say it again. Folks who collect one list for their army do not weather edition and codex changes well. Folks who collect armies do much better.
I'm sure they do, but is that really surprising? I mean, yeah, if you own every model in the codex, it's likely at least some of them will be buffed.
If you aren't prepared to break off a bunch of arms and glue on a bunch of new ones every couple years, 40k isn't for you.
If you aren't prepared to have some models in your collection sit on the shelf for a couple years, while others that were sitting up there come down, 40k isn't for you.
I could be misinterpreting your tone here (and if so, I apologise in advance), but you do seem oddly derisive of those who have become attached to their armies.
I don't collect wych armies myself, but I can certainly sympathise with those who got into DE to create wych armies. And, I don't see why anyone would defend a company with a policy of "sorry, we've sold most of our wych stock, so it's their turn to be crap for the next 4 years. But, look at these nice shiny grotesque models we've just buffed, wouldn't you rather have these instead? Don't worry - we have plenty in stock."
Grarg wrote: BTW: Why are people saying that if the Ravagers move you can only snapshot? They are Fast Skimmers in the previous codex (FAQ) and i haven't seen anything that takes away from that in the new codex, so they can move 6" and still shoot everything.
They use to be able to move 12 and shoot everything. Now they are limited to 6" and cost 20 points more. Expect to see less of them.
What got worse: Wych's tank killing ability Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit) number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex) some points on vehicle options loss of nearly all special characters
What got better: literally everything else, many things by a wide margin
Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.
Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.
Wyches tank killing ability didn't get worse - the entire army's tank killing ability got worse with the loss/nerfs of our best and most reliable AT units. When the one thing everyone was hoping for with this release (read: earlier in this thread) was better AT.
That aside, there is more to well written codex's than dex power. With the loss of a substantial amount of units, the addition of none, and the nerf of crucial units, the buff of the Court, Mandrakes, and other units already playable do not even come close to making up for what we are losing going into this new dex. Especially when it comes to unit versatility. If anyone takes troop choices consisting of anything above the minimum amount of Warrior squads for mandatorys, its solely for spamming Venoms. And even then you are strictly limited to Warriors. Great improvement! Love the versatility! Brilliant writing on the new DE codex !
1 - urien or haemy plus 2 units of grots - d6 roll at start of game for grots - +1S, +1T, fleet, shred, rage, 4+ FNP
2 - 1 haemy, 1 chronos, 2 units of wracks - all wracks gain precision strike, wracks treat turn 1 higher for pfp. if haemy is the warlord he gets trait 4 automatically
3 - 2 units of wracks in 2 venoms - if a unit in this formation scores first blood, gain D3 vp rather than 1. Wracks must start embarked an in reserve. Deployed turn 1 via deep strike
4 - unit of 5 Talos - gain scout. Score an extra vp for any non vehicle unit killed in combat
5 - 1 haemy, 1 Chronos, 1 Talos - form a single unit. Characters may not join it outside of this formation. Talos and chronos gain +1ws and init. If haemy is warlord, gain trait 1 automatically
6 - 1 haemy, 3 units of wracks with raiders. Master of pain from haemy confers to all units in this formation within 12". Warlord trait 5 if haemy is warlord
7 - all 6 formations as above in 1 formation - called the carnival of pain. Urien form formation 1 has his master of pain rule confer to whole formation. All non vehicles reroll 1's to wound in combat
You know, when every I see the word "grot" I keep thinking of the ork unit.
It's kind of funny.
Upon its release when WWP worked differently, the Talos was much more viable and much more common. Reavers were also much more popular too. These are definitely not units that never saw the table. Scourges are another crappy unit actually, I'll give you that, forgot about them. The nobrained upgrade for Venom is pretty irrelevant to the overall picture here, I mean the balance between Venoms and Raiders is quite well done and both were extremely popular, I mentioned a bunch of units like this competing quite heavily for the same slots and roles which you completely ignored, making your list of "and it goes on", an extremely poor response to this. So many different units were extremely popular and saw play and many many people had their own take on DE, every dex will always have one or two "best competitive builds" but ours was one of the most flexible with it being easy to fit almost any unit in the codex in without it ruining your build. Barely any dexes can say the same. The answer to Reavers issues in 7th, where it's still very playable regardless, is not to nerf them into the ground. I think our 7E release is going to be quite a rude awakening to some people who insist our 5E dex was unbalanced internally, in comparison to the rest of 40k it was possibly the best balanced dex in the game, it's hard to realise this from a drivers perspective because the flaws are more obvious, but where we have Mandrakes and Scourges, every other dex has just as many or more units that will never, ever hit the table, and have much less versatility in options that are safe to play without it being a ridiculous inclusion. Mandrakes are highlighted because they are so ridiculously bad, but at the end f the day, they are just as unplayable as CSM Warp Talons, possessed, Mutilators, Helbrutes, raptors, forgefiends, etc, (as were upon release, I can't keep up with the recent influx of data slates I'm sure some of them maybe somewhat playable today), and as written upon release, none of them would ever see any play in a sensible list ever. The same cannot be said about our less competitive models, with Grots - incubi occasionally appearing in Elites, Flyers being good in the HS, 3 very common different troop choices between whacks warriors and Wyches, all very playable and spam able in their own right, varied HQs from baron, Sliscus, Archons, Haemys, Vect, all consistently getting used, even Hexatrix aren't unplayable giving you very good and mobile Agoniser support to deal with beastpack tarpits (namely WK, other MCs, and bike blobs) while still continuing HWG saturation and threats. Similar, can be said for Reavers, And they got used quite often regardless. I think calling the last one unbalanced internally is silly - especially when the underlying statement was that the balance has degraded, which is almost undeniably the way it's looking,
his thread is for.
I know exactly how the WWP worked on release and the only thing Talos got used for frequently was for conversion parts. Your meta must have been absurdly out of touch if you think the DE could afford anything else but Ravager spam in 5th edition, aka. Parking lot edition.
There's a difference between unplayable and poor balance. The Reavers wasn't bad and certainly not unplayable but they weren't worth their points when measured with other unit.
In the HQ department you never saw Lilith due to her poor rules and absurd cost. Vect was used in some alpha strike lists in 6th, but other than that, he never saw action. The Succubus was useless, the DE was riddled with massive amounts of war gear and somehow she was excluded from buying them. The Stock Archon with tons of ways to be equipped/Baron/Duke was so absurdly good for their points that they overshadowed anything else in that department, again, poor internal balance.
In the elite department you had grots.. Yeah, no.. Especially not with the nerf to the WWP. Wracks were decent, if only you had a hemmy but never as elite. Mandrakes, do I need to explain? Harlequins. Okay, so an assault unit who couldn't get an assault vehicle and need to footslog acros the map with very expensive upgrades and no durability. The only way to buy a transport with this unit is to buy Vect, buy his Dias and then fill it with the unit.. Yeah, go figure the cost. That leaves us with Bloodbrides, an expensive version of the tarpit unit, no thanks.
All that vs Incubi and the much, much better Trueborns. Again. No contest here, poor internal balance.
In the fast attack option we find the Hellions. A horrible unit with horrible saves, horrible stats and could only ever be made redeemable by the Baron, who was in a much better place amongst the beast pack. Reavers is a fun unit, sure, but was very over costed. 6th made them much better though but they were almost never worth their price tag, especially if you started giving them upgrades. Scourges, as explained before. Again, 1 unit, the beast pack is better than every single choice in FA range due to, you guessed it, poor internal balance.
In the heavy section there's the chronos parasite, or rather, no there isn't because no one took them as they don't work, because they are slow and could never buff those it was suppose to buff because it couldn't keep up. There's the Razorwing who isn't really that bad, it was best in 5th where you could exploit its 4 large blast alpha strike but other than that it was never as reliable as the much cheaper Ravager, especially when you wanted the lances afterwards and the Razorwing could never hide or claim cover and could be fragged by bolters. Void raven bomber was simply too damn expensive and having it only available for 1-3 turns arriving from reserve and assuming it didn't get shot down, where it could fire its 2 non-TL lance weapons was underwhelming to say the least. The Talos isn't bad in itself, but considering the fact that the DE doesn't need more stuff to kill infantry or MC's with, the Talos' role felt redundant. The fact that it's slow as a tree reaching for the sun didn't help much either. So again, the Ravager clearly outclassed every other heavy choice due to poor internal balance.
I could write about the war gear too, but that would make for a wall of text.
Well, you clearly aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion.
Why are we looking at Grots after the nerf to WWP? That was in the edition released after the codex, and is irrelevant to how well written the codex was. Why is Bloodbrides just an expensive tarpit unit when I explained a use for them?
Nobody said all these units had to be at the top of the competitive ladder to be viable, almost every codex in the game has a standout build. Almost all the units you mentioned were playable in some form or another without the list being totally gimmicky.
I don't get it, like how is the Hellions, Reavers, Vect, etc etc getting nerfed and removed an improvement. In any way. Especially since you are complaing about them being trash as well.
I've only skimmed your post so I'm not going to give an indepth response to everything, some of it is a little accurate, most is just bending the facts where necessary to suit ur standpoint
Even at the release of DE I don't remember anyone actually using Bloodbrides. From Day 1 the build I saw being pushed (because this was 5th and at the time there pretty much was only one good way to play an army, at least according to the internet) was focused around Ravagers, Trueborn in Venoms, Warriors in Raiders and an Archon either with the Trueborn or rolling with Incubi.
And the Venom's no-brainer upgrade is quite relevant, because it explains exactly what Phill Kelly doesn't understand about options for vehicle. Take the predator, it has upgrades for its turret and and sponsons, which changes its role completely and it has access to hunter killer missiles and dozer blades, THOSE things are optional extras. A 10 point tax in order to replace an incredibly gakky gun isn't as much an option as choosing not to crap your pants is an option.
Zewrath wrote: And the Venom's no-brainer upgrade is quite relevant, because it explains exactly what Phill Kelly doesn't understands about options for vehicle. Take the predator, it has upgrades for its turret and and sponsons, which changes its role completely and it has access to hunter killer missiles and dozer blades, THOSE things are optional extras. A 10 point tax in order to replace an incredibly gakky gun isn't as much an option as choosing not to crap your pants is an option.
This made me lol, but I'll play devils advocate half heartedly here. Periodically you build a list and just need a 5/10p to come from somewhere. I have, on occasion, dropped A cannon off of A venom to fit something in.
Honestly, to those saying the army's AT ability to hit -- I'd agree, in many aspects it did. Scourges can potentially fill that gap, but I'll concede there's a gap.
Think it's a coincidence that we've seen two books in a row with no way to reliably pop armor? Think Dark Eldar have a problem, try to play a mono Grey Knight list. Your option is melta bomb justicars and land raiders... that's it.
GW is releasing these codexes to require allies. It's devious to players. genius as a company. Any Eldar player who didn't break and get DE will at least pick up some raiders and an HQ now.
Dark Eldar players will come to see that WWP Wraithguard or Fire Dragons with their reserve roll reduced by an Autarch will be insanely annoying. All while Wave Serpents hit medium armor.
These books are supposed to be used in concert now. Will I miss being able to run wholly singular armies? Yes... but things are bright.
SHUPPET wrote: Well, you clearly aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion.
Why are we looking at Grots after the nerf to WWP? That was in the edition released after the codex, and is irrelevant to how well written the codex was. Why is Bloodbrides just an expensive tarpit unit when I explained a use for them?
Nobody said all these units had to be at the top of the competitive ladder to be viable, almost every codex in the game has a standout build. Almost all the units you mentioned were playable in some form or another without the list being totally gimmicky.
I don't get it, like how is the Hellions, Reavers, Vect, etc etc getting nerfed and removed an improvement. In any way. Especially since you are complaing about them being trash as well.
I've only skimmed your post so I'm not going to give an indepth response to everything, some of it is a little accurate, most is just bending the facts where necessary to suit ur standpoint
Reasonable discussion? I keep saying to you, over and over, my entire point isn't about strength in competitive ladder or that the units are unplayable, read what I am saying. The problem with the 5th DE, from start, is that there were so many choices who where VASTLY superior to their counterparts. Sure, you could play for fun and create a mixed list, but you were always punished for doing so. You would always perform significantly better if you stuck with the few vastly superior choices of the dex
Venom spam, Ravager spam and true born splinter/blaster spam has been the bread and butter way to play DE for the vast majority of the DE player base for 3 editions with a good reason, and that isn't bending any facts.
When did I ever say removing Vect and nerfing hellions was a good thing?
Everyone bemoaning this codex but seriously, they have I think more formations than anyone , plus one where its all in. That's awesome.
You can have 9 Fast Attack, yes please.
Codex looks great, and a lot of builds. Especially when combined with your battle brothers Eldar.
I mean gak, need some Psychics? Take the Formation , Primary Eldar and still take a huge psychic squad beast packs with invisibility. Wraith Guard flying around in their skimmers or deep striking in. Sticking Scorpions in actual assault vehicles.
To me it seems you got even more options.
The loss of Special Characters hurt but seriously that Court is crazy awesome. What I get 10 guys with AP2 ST4 Flamers, what the hell.
I mean Christ you have a no scatter deep strike, an ability that gives a - 1 LD, then another that's a one shot - 2 LD , then you have to take wounds on what you fail. I'm already calling the Spiritseer Archon drop pod of death. Because that's going to be a thing without a doubt. There are some really nasty things in that codex from the leaks and it is not pleasant for thsoe of us with low LD armies.
Whats making me smile is that my 7th ed. DE list is looking a lot like my 5th ed DE list.
The only difference is I'm dropping all dark lances from vehicles and trueborn and getting three units of scourges to take up the heavy armor busting abilities.
There's a lot of psychology at play here with my disappointment.
I've got a lot of ravagers, some reavers, wyches, beast pack, etc. I had just around 1850.
Now it looks like I'll have to completely rework my army. The major blow isn't just that "oh well the scourges look good, I should buy some of those", its the "oh I need a ton of scourges AND the entire core of my current army got worse!"
So instead of being able to slowly collect new models and enjoy my old army as it grows into my new army, I have to play with a bitter taste in my mouth, remembering what once was with my old models.
Its the kind of thing that makes you say "feth it, I'm just not going to buy anything and go play something else." So instead of getting money from me for new models and me buying books, I've just thrown my hands into the air and walked away. I did the same with my orks. Going to do the same with my DE.
Yup. Me too. I prefer my DE with the flavour of fast moving Kaballite and Wyche raiders, more akin to pirates. At least my Ravagers, Venoms and Kabalites are still playable. I might even let Lelith come out to play now. But my Hellions, Reavers, Masses of Wyches and Incubi look like they might be shelved.
I resent having having to move to S&M Gimp elves with muscly servants who enjoy a flogging or two, whilst in delicious irony, bending over for GW to roger me senseless with an expensive codex supplement. Life imitate art much? But it does look like I'll be needing some CE support. Which is a shame as I enjoy 'pure' armies.
What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters
What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin
There's a few negative nancies here, I think there ard some game changing buffs if you combine DE with CWE. This Eldar Supplement: Dark Eldar will be awesome.
Though Reavers, Helions, Wyches and Lelith (who is Still overpriced) are basically unusable. Oh yea and no more 1-3 Haemonculi.
This isn't even the worst by a long shot. Orkz? Tyranids??? Is GW trying to put itself out of business?
What got worse:
Wych's tank killing ability
Beast star (not beast packs, those are better, the thing that got worse was one giant 600 point deathstar unit)
number of Haemonculuses (which no one seems to be talking about as the biggest drawback in the codex)
some points on vehicle options
loss of nearly all special characters
What got better:
literally everything else, many things by a wide margin
Internet's verdict: worst codex every written.
Sometimes I just don't understand you Internet.
LOL.
I often disagree with you DE, but well done, sir
RE: The underlined portion
Everything except Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers, Voidravens, Archons, Splinter Cannons, and Hellions.
EvolutionDemon wrote: Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.
Archite glaive is not unwieldy, and despite not getting access to as much wargear is the archon it is possible to end up with 5 str 6 ap 2 attacks on charge once you get FC from PFP and if you get +str combat drugs, which is pretty serious. Also gets access to WWP despite not getting access to arcane gear where it is normally purchased from. Also has access to the artefact armor so can get out of combat dodge save.
Dodge only works in fight subphase, so no dodge versus overwatch.
Lelith- league apart changed, rerolls in challenges, can be upgrade to reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Attacks ignore all armor.
Wyches- 1 can take wyche weapons, if the squad is 10+ 3 can take wyche weapons. max size is 15. Hek and syren only upgrade optiosn are power sword, or agonizer for melee, can take blast pistol, and PGL. Haywire grenades as stated.
Agonizer is now poisoned 4+ and ap is same, the change to poisoned is a good deal as with certain drugs/FC you will get your str above target toughness for benefit as per poisoned USR.
WWP does give deepstrike to model and any unit it is with and or embarked transport.
All wyche weapons are ap 5 now. Hydra gaunts =shred, razor flail= reroll all failed to hit rolls, shardnet impaler now reroll 1s for to hit and wound, no attack reduction, always counts as a pair of cc wpns.
EDIT: The fancy weapons are trash BTW. A 50% point increase for 25% damage increase makes no sense. Just take more units.
Also, I keep seeing this about the Wych weapons, and it's simply not true.
Compare 7 Wyches to 6 Wyches with 2/Hydra Gauntlets, the Hydras give you a clear damage advantage against MeQ (1.22 versus 1.17 of the charge, assuming no damage based combat drugs) and pretty massive difference against GeQ, Orcs, etc, as they have AP 5.
Also, their are fixed costs (the Raider itself) and transport capacities that come into play.
EvolutionDemon wrote: Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.
WAIT WHAT?
Can or Cant?
Edit: Also, pics?
poster was mistaken, archon cannot take either. Both are listed as arcane wargear on p.107 in the codex and archon has access to arcane wargear, but from wargear list for arcane wargear it is not a purchasable option. This is why some people have been confused.
blaktoof wrote: looking at scans of the codex, thanks /tg/...
some wyche stuff
Succubus was definately buffed over last edition.
Archite glaive is not unwieldy, and despite not getting access to as much wargear is the archon it is possible to end up with 5 str 6 ap 2 attacks on charge once you get FC from PFP and if you get +str combat drugs, which is pretty serious. Also gets access to WWP despite not getting access to arcane gear where it is normally purchased from. Also has access to the artefact armor so can get out of combat dodge save.
Dodge only works in fight subphase, so no dodge versus overwatch.
Lelith- league apart changed, rerolls in challenges, can be upgrade to reroll all 1s to wound in assault. Attacks ignore all armor.
Wyches- 1 can take wyche wepaons, if the squad is 10+ 3 can take wyche weapons. max size is 15. Hek and syren only upgrade optiosn are power sword, or agonizer for melee, can take blast pistol, and PGL. Haywire grenades as stated.
Agonizer is now poisoned 4+ and ap is same, the change to poisoned is a good deal as with certain drugs/FC you will get your str above target toughness for benefit as per poisoned USR.
WWP does give deepstrike to model and any unit it is with and or embarked transport.
All wyche weapons are ap 5 now. Hydra gaunts =shred, razor flail= reroll all failed to hit rolls, shardnet impaler now reroll 1s for to hit and wound, no attack reduction, always counts as a pair of cc wpns.
EvolutionDemon wrote: Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.
WAIT WHAT?
Can or Cant?
Edit: Also, pics?
Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.
Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs
I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?
I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.
Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.
EvolutionDemon wrote: Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.
WAIT WHAT?
Can or Cant?
Edit: Also, pics?
Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.
Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs
check the arcane wargear list with points values its not on there, so not an option.
EvolutionDemon wrote: Just got my hands on a codex. Not sure if this was confirmed before but a quick skim through looks like an Archon can take a sky board or jet bike.
WAIT WHAT?
Can or Cant?
Edit: Also, pics?
poster was mistaken, archon cannot take either. Both are listed as arcane wargear on p.107 in the codex and archon has access to arcane wargear, but from wargear list for arcane wargear it is not a purchasable option. This is why some people have been confused.
Ahh ok. I'll edit that post to remove further confusion.
Just took a look at p69 for purchasable wargear and yup they're not there. :-(
Can. Says he can take from arcane war gear and those are listed there. If he takes a bike his armor gets raised to 5+ same with sky board.
Would take pics but I'm actually posting this sitting in my car outside of my flgs
Bikes and skyboards are not listen in the section that has the arcane wargear prices. The arcane wargear is shadow field, clone field, wwp, haywire grenades, soul trap and pgl.
Also, people keep saying the Djin blade is bad? I'm not sure why. Particularly on the Archon, all your wounds beyond 1 are kind of superfluous (because once that field goes down...). +2 Attacks is pretty boss, honestly. Not sure the cost, though.
I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?
I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.
Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.
Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.
I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?
I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.
Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.
Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.
Sounds like you got it all figured out man. Keep up the good work.
CoM is no longer 1 per army, every Haem can get one.
If you pull off 'agonizing' from certain weapon, and haem is in squad you get fnp 5+ turn 1. If you have architect of agony (wl trait[kabalite raiding party formation gets this trait for archon if wl) everyone in army gets it turn 2. (turn 1 if haem in squad)this can be improved to fnp 4+ from certain items.
So it is possible to start off with FnP of 6+/5+/4+ if you get first turn and certain other combinations which are not impossible, or even rare if you try to set them up.
That said, t3 and FnP is nice, but str6+ = so what?
Hexrifle is more usable, now ID on precision shot instead of failed T test after taking a wound.
Scissorhand lost the pair of ccwpn rule but gained rending and is now poisoned 4+
haem can take WWP, even though does not have access to arcane wargear.
outside of artefacts no access to inv save or better armor.
Drazhar dropped in cost 40 points, gained rampage. old special rules for him only, gone. New ones- drazhar and all incubi in unit get +1ws if drazhar is joined to incubi unit. Each 6 drazhar rolls to wound grants a bonus attack, bonus attacks do not generate further bonus attacks.
incubi- same stats, cost changed as mentioned previously. can upgrade 1 to klaivex for 10 pts. klaivex lost all old exarch like and wargear options other than klaive-> demi klaives, but gained rampage.
I am guessing because there are reasons why wyches and many other units have been more or less non-viable as competitive choices for assault is because they are fragile and relatively costly for little punch, and nothing has changed to improve that. That would be why I brought it up.
edit-
reavers still get access to heat lances and blasters, they both cost less than before.
grav talon and cluster caltrops cost less than before, both and weapons are are still 1 in 3 models.
scourges-
do get access to power lance
also get access to venom blade (very few models do now)
The Shardnet & Impaler section seems pretty redundant. lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: I am guessing because there are reasons why wyches and many other units have been more or less non-viable as competitive choices for assault is because they are fragile and relatively costly for little punch, and nothing has changed to improve that. That would be why I brought it up.
But it has been changed. They are objectively more resilient to explosions and the vast majority of Overwatch in the game (bolters and such). S6+ has nothing to do with either of these things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I might add, that they can actually get T4 now...so....yeah...uh, that seems like it might change things, no?
I apologize, im not counting on getting a 1/6 chance of getting T4, if duke was still around maybe. but no.
they are more resilient to explosions when they get fnp 5+.
before you could put a 30pt haem with venom blade with them that would give them fnp5+ from the start, now if you put a 70pt haem with them they are getting fnp 6+ from the start. not quite changed for the better.
their dodge save still can't be taken versus overwatch still as it is specifically limited to the fight subphase of assault which happens after overwatch. so not sure how you are saying they got better there.
missiles have to be taken in sets of 4, can only select one set of 4. One is shatterfieldx4, other is shatterfieldx2 implosionx2, last is implosionx4 40/50/60pts
Think about it this way. Instead of having 3 Raiders with Haemies and Wyches, you can almost afford 4 Raiders full of Wyches now. That's a pretty massive difference.
I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?
I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.
Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.
Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.
I'm not sure how wyches are going to be shot by S6 weapons if they are currently tar pitting a unit in HTH, in which case they have a 4++ and variable FNP to stay alive (not to mention what ever drug bonus you rolled up.
As for tarpitting something on turn 3. Wyches + raider w/aethersails + reserves = 1 turn to kill/stop the wyches before they assault something that needs to be tied up on turn 3.
I apologize, im not counting on getting a 1/6 chance of getting T4, if duke was still around maybe. but no
"Can't count on" is not the same as "nothing has changed."
Also, Haemies were 50 points, not 30. You were effectively paying 5.6 points/model for FNP.
I was referring to the free FNP they would have against Overwatch now. Dodge has nothing to do with it.
1/6 chance is not good.
regardless I do agree that the new PFP system greatly benefits MSU dark eldar, and if you take small squads of wyches overall you will see more FnP saves then before.
relying or even hoping for a single roll to be the 1/6 you need to get +1 toughness however is not really a valid strategy as its obviously something you cannot plan on.
saying you were paying 5.6 points a model for FnP was a little off as the haemy often brought more than just FnP, even with just a venom blade/splinter pistol it would rack up more kills against MeQ or almost anything than 2-3 wyches on average. Effectively becoming 2 wyches in result of action so you were really paying 3.2pts for FnP for the MeQ killing potential of 11 wyches in a squad of 9 wyches with a haem.
Again, who said anything about relying on anything. 1/6th chance > then no chance, which is what you originally alleged.
saying you were paying 5.6 points a model for FnP was a little off as the haemy often brought more than just FnP, even with just a venom blade/splinter pistol it would rack up more kills against MeQ or almost anything than 2-3 wyches on average. Effectively becoming 2 wyches in result of action so you were really paying 3.2pts for FnP for the MeQ killing potential of 11 wyches in a squad of 9 wyches with a haem.
That's a fair point. Still, 3.2/per can get a little pricey.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just noticed the Parasites Kiss is only 5 points. That weapon is really pretty nice for the price. Not amazing, but it's far from the "trash" people were calling it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anybody figured out what chain-flails do now?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind, see it now, Shred.
I think Reavers and Lilith have their place. As for Wyches and Hellions though, can you think of one reasonable use for them?
I'm not sure about the Hellions, although people keep ignoring the fact they got cheaper. That makes a pretty massive difference.
Wyches are your only CC based OS unit. They also are a good tarpit that got better at tarpitting (as they get their FNP for free now). If you need a tarpit or a CC unit that has OS? I can see obvious strategic reasons for taking them. YMMV.
Hellions lost the +1A, the ability to be Troops. and access to grenades....not even close to worth the points drop the received. Wyches are actually pretty bad at tarpitting anything. 10 T3 dudes are going to get wrecked by anything even slightly worth tarpitting, even with 4++ saves. FNP only kicks in on turn 3, which will be ignored anyway on a T3 model with all the S6/7 shooting around these days. If you take more than 10 in a squad on foot, prepare to be shot off the board faster than you can pick up your models. There is not a single competent player out there that will let anything get tarpitted on turn 3+ by a unit that can be blown of the board in shooting with a stiff breeze.
I'm not sure how wyches are going to be shot by S6 weapons if they are currently tar pitting a unit in HTH, in which case they have a 4++ and variable FNP to stay alive (not to mention what ever drug bonus you rolled up.
As for tarpitting something on turn 3. Wyches + raider w/aethersails + reserves = 1 turn to kill/stop the wyches before they assault something that needs to be tied up on turn 3.
I'm having a very hard time thinking of any army that would have trouble blowing up a Raider and killing the Wyches inside in a single turn. Also if they come on turn 2, no FNP. If they come on turn 3+, not really a great investment if you are aiming to tarpit on turn 4+.
I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.
I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.
GW canmygoat and horseradish . Twice.
Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.
I'm having a very hard time thinking of any army that would have trouble blowing up a Raider and killing the Wyches inside in a single turn.
Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.
Also if they come on turn 2, no FNP.
Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.
If they come on turn 3+, not really a great investment if you are aiming to tarpit on turn 4+.
What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?
I've been trying to write a post about how I feel about GW right now, but everytime I try, I end up with so much semi-coherent swearing and frothing at the mouth that's sure to get me kicked off Dakka, if not the entire internet.
I just really can't afford their fickleness anymore. All those hellions I purchased? Redundant. My Baron conversion? Obsolete. Wyches? Unusable. Harlequins? Heh. I've got a very tight gaming budget, and limited painting time budget as well, and GW just negated both for the past year. After 27 years of this, you'd think I'd learn.
GW canmygoat and horseradish . Twice.
Whelp. At least I've got Infinity to look forward to.
Wait, so how do you feel about the new codex though?
Fishboy wrote: Urien and Lelith I think. Drahzier is in there too
That's it!?!?!
Great News, eh?
really miffed the decided to make a new generic archon and a new generic succubus but no special characters...
Which I find really funny because you can find any number of Sci-fi based S&Mish elves for purchase from other games to use as count as Archon and Succubus, yet special characters get culled because someone somewhere might make a sci-fi based S&Mish elf with a name.
Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.
Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.
And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5...
What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
One thing that I have yet to see mentioned and I have no real answer for myself is what the hell is a pure DE army supposed to do about flyers?
I have not heard about a single infantry model with the skyfire/intercepter rule. If they are saying we are supposed to use Razorwings with their two darklances to take down things like Stormwolves/fangs, chibihawks, or crimson hunters thats just too damn funny.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).
Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
Not in close combat they don't.
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.
Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.
You dont send them after worthwhile CC units. You send them after things like broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads. You send them after things that have high shooty output and dont really fight back too hard in HTH. You need to silence their big guns with wyches. You knock out their heavy HTH threats with massed poison, Grots, or incubi.
Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.
And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5.
If and only if they are in range. Raiders that are moving flat out, nobody shoots from. Walking Kabilites can only reach things 24" away with a single shot each. Not impressive. There is value in swarm tactics and getting things in your face. You bottleneck their movement, create choke points. Often that initial 36" move/positioning that you make with raiders is more important than any casulties you might cause from firing splinter rifles from your board edge. And once things are close and HTH is eminent, you will want wyches more than warriors because in combat, wyches are much more survivable.
What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.
Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.
Hey i just wanna know if the rumor is true that there is no LoW in this codex. Sorry if someone already asked the question i just can't find it in this thread.
6 Reavers, 2 Cluster Caltrops, +1 Attack Combat Drug, and an AC with an Agonizer kill about 7.30 MEQ on the charge (including shooting).
That's pretty interesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tehinchman wrote: Hey i just wanna know if the rumor is true that there is no LoW in this codex. Sorry if someone already asked the question i just can't find it in this thread.
10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.
10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.
First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.
Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).
Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
Not in close combat they don't.
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.
There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.
On Topic:
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing. You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them. Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage. Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.
10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.
First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.
Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.
Oh yeah, you make a good point with the Agoniser.
That being said, it wasn't always easy to justify Wyches in their last incarnation, I don't think I'll ever be running them now, as dealing with MC's is not something I've ever had issues with as DElol.
Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn).
Uh....You've never actually competently used Wyches before have you? 10 4++/FNP 5+ wounds aren't exactly easy to tear through. What unit is whiping them out in 1 turn?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
Not in close combat they don't.
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
It's two completely different tactical roles. Let's say the unit is GtG and camping an objective. You really think Kabs will be the better option here?
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
I get it. You're not good at using close combat units. That's really what your entire post communicates to me.
There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.
On Topic:
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing. You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them. Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage. Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.
Yeah, that guy has been extremely rude and abrasive about his point of view the entire way through.
I have to agree with your logic, you've used logic and sensible reasoning the whole way through, and the responses of "well you must just be bad at CC units l2p noob" prove nothing and help nobody. Just check the correct box and keep it moving imo.
I don't think there is many situations that I would rather have a unit of Wyches over a unit of Warriors.
Sure, if that is their only threat, and they have LOS, and a bunch of other factors that you seem to be ignoring. Plus, any army that could wipe the Wyches in a single turn could wipe Kabalites in a single turn.
Even if the target saturation is that high, what worthwhile unit do you think 10 Wyches are going to be able to tarpit for more than 2 rounds of combat? (1 turn). Wyches are 25% more expensive than Warriors, so losing them would be that much worse. Plus Warriors do more damage, from further away, starting on turn 1 or 2.
You dont send them after worthwhile CC units. You send them after things like broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads. You send them after things that have high shooty output and dont really fight back too hard in HTH. You need to silence their big guns with wyches.You knock out their heavy HTH threats with massed poison, Grots, or incubi.
Not true. They have FNP 6+ on Turn 2. 5+ if you manage to get an Animus Vitae off.
And this would also be true for Kabalite Warriors....who get a 5+ armour save on top of this...and are 25% cheaper...and can actually deal significant damage to their target before turn 2.5.
If and only if they are in range. Raiders that are moving flat out, nobody shoots from. Walking Kabilites can only reach things 24" away with a single shot each. Not impressive. There is value in swarm tactics and getting things in your face. You bottleneck their movement, create choke points. Often that initial 36" move/positioning that you make with raiders is more important than any casulties you might cause from firing splinter rifles from your board edge. And once things are close and HTH is eminent, you will want wyches more than warriors because in combat, wyches are much more survivable.
What if they are Securing an Objective against a non OS unit and win you the game? Seems like that might be a pretty good investment? Winning the game? Maybe?
Again, Kabalites do this better, and for cheaper.
For Wyches to be reasonable, they need to be cheaper than Kabiltes due to their lack of a gun in a shooty game, and their 6+ save. 7 points seems fair. Now I know that Dodge should be worth something. Probably not much though, as a T3 6+ model is going to have a rough time ever making it to combat in the first place. Given this, I think 1 point for dodge seems fair, for a total of 8ppm. But, at 10 ppm, they are just too expensive for what they do.
Wyches do have a gun. Each one comes with a splinter pistol. So they can do some shooting damage before charging in. The thing is, taking wyches will not auto loose you the game. However, you have to have a game plan with them and pick their targets smartly. They don't suck by a mile, they arn't warp talon, melee centurion, banshee bad. They just arnt point and click either like TWC, wraiths, etc.
What competent player is going to let Wyches make it to his broadsides/cents/etc? HYMP broadsides would eat the Wyches in a single round of shooting even on bad dice. And we haven't even gotten into markerlight supported overwatch + supporting fire.
jamopower wrote: Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.
What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?
10 FNP Wyches tanks as much as 28 Termagants, assuming no S6. Because of the fact that they are a platform to take another Venom, as well as the speed that it grants them, they actually aren't terrible tarpits. How much do they cost in the new dex? At the end of the day tho, p much any DE infantry is a tarpit, and what exactly are you going to be tarpitting with a Wych squad? Riptide is the only correct answer and I think Tau will be blowing you out the sky before it happens. Against anything else, any other MC, especially Wraithknights, you would probably have been better off unloading a round of splinter shots into them from the Warriors, for cheaper. Taking a unit strictly to be a tarpit, isn't a great idea. They were a great tarpit in the last dex, back when they came with HWG and actually had a role in your army other than tarpit, Wyches would have to be much cheaper to make it worthwhile.
First, as Jayden pointed out, tarpitting isn't their only role.
Second, I think you should check that WK matchup. The agonizer removes ~1 wound/turn, and the WK only kills about 1 Wyche per turn. That's actually a pretty ideal matchup for them, tarpitting wise. TH/SS terms, many other MCs, etc, are all units I would throw them against if I had tarpitting in mind. I think you are severely underestimating how big of a difference Dodge makes in those matchups.
How are you catching a Jump MC with Wyches? Raider/Venom is not a viable answer here when a single Wave Serpent has almost a 100% chance of wrecking it on turn 1 (or the turn it comes on the board)
jamopower wrote: Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.
What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?
I would say that they need to be 8 ppm and have Dodge work in Overwatch.
There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.
Yes, I'm quite insecure. I wasn't being rude. I was merely pointing out my observations. It's readily apparent when people struggle with the CC portion of the game.
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing.
Interesting caveat. What if the DE player knows what they are doing?
You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them.
Not if they are coming in from reserves...
Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage
I think you are somewhat over amplifying a Splinter cannon and some rifles to make your point. It's ait. It's not overwhelmingly awesome sauce. Wyches can more then make up for the damage once they reach CC, particularly as they are also intrinisically in a better position Objective wise when they have done so.
Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.
LOL. You keep saying they are terrible at their role without actually demonstrating they are terrible at their role. Wyches are just fine in CC once they get to it, particularly for an OS unit.
Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.
Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ andFNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.
So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.
jamopower wrote: Problem is not that wyches wouldn't be bad when they get to close combat. Problem (in the whole game) is that it's so hard to get there (if you're not beast or equal) that the unit should actually destroy something when they get there. And preferably shoot a lot on the way there. i.e. the CC squad should be amazing to be really considered as a useful addition to any army.
What do you speculate that they may require? Assuming HWG is out of the question. An extra attack? Furious Charge? Poisoned CCWs?
I would say that they need to be 8 ppm and have Dodge work in Overwatch.
I would say that they need help from the actual rules of the game. With the haywires they were viable because with them they were really good against anything with an armour value. Making them shine in CC would probably need so much buffs that they would end up being broken, but dodge in overwatch could be a good start.
How are you catching a Jump MC with Wyches? Raider/Venom is not a viable answer here when a single Wave Serpent has almost a 100% chance of wrecking it on turn 1 (or the turn it comes on the board)
What if the WS is dead by the turn they come in? And, you seem to have missed the point. Someone else said that WK's would be a bad matchup, I was merely correcting that person. Sure, maybe they just keep their WK on their board edge the entire game to keep them from your Wyches? I don't see that plan backfiring at all.
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BlaxicanX wrote: Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.
Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ andFNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.
So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.
This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade. There is absolutely now way the Wyches are losing CC to Tacs or broadsides. Give me a break.
BlaxicanX wrote: Wyches are poor tarpits because they're only leadership 8 stock.
Broadsides, centurions, devistator squads, mortis pattern dreads? Wyches will lose the combat against these units on average, even with the 4++ andFNP, and will fail their morale test on average and fall back- hell, they're going to lose the first round of combat against a naked 10-man tactical squad on average. That is not a good tarpit. In order for a tarpit to be good it needs some brand of fearless- even leadership 10 isn't a safe bet because of the negative modifiers for your morale check, and it only takes a couple of wounds in CC in order for that test to be difficult for them to reliably pass.
So now you're looking at attaching IC's to the unit so that they're either fearless/stubborn or have enough punch to pile on more wounds and win the combat. But... why would you do that? There's an opportunity cost to using one of your two precious HQ slots (barring allies/formations etc shenanigans) to babysit a single 9-man squad of wyches.
This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade. There is absolutely now way the Wyches are losing CC to Tacs or broadsides. Give me a break.
Broadisdes have 2+ save. I cvan quite easily see the wyches losing to them. Especially after the supporting fire overwatch.
There is no need to be rude. If you are feeling insecure about yourself, there are better options.
Yes, I'm quite insecure. I wasn't being rude. I was merely pointing out my observations. It's readily apparent when people struggle with the CC portion of the game.
A full strength unit of Wyches will NEVER reach anything worth tarpitting against a player who know what he is doing.
Interesting caveat. What if the DE player knows what they are doing?
You are failing to see that the Wyches would need to survive 2+ turns of shooting WITHOUT their 4++ or FNP to help them.
Not if they are coming in from reserves...
Warriors are more survivable to that same shooting, and can provide meaningful return fire at range. By the time a unit of Wyches makes it to assault range, the same unit of Warriors will have already done significant damage in prior turns, and because of their better save and ability to keep their distance from return fire, will have more models left alive that can continue to do damage
I think you are somewhat over amplifying a Splinter cannon and some rifles to make your point. It's ait. It's not overwhelmingly awesome sauce. Wyches can more then make up for the damage once they reach CC, particularly as they are also intrinisically in a better position Objective wise when they have done so.
Yes Wyches and Warriors have different roles. The problem is that Warriors are decent at their role, while Wyches are terrible at theirs AND cost more points.
LOL. You keep saying they are terrible at their role without actually demonstrating they are terrible at their role. Wyches are just fine in CConce they get to it, particularly for an OS unit.
This is why your argument falls flat on its face. They are terrible because they have no way of reliably making it into combat. If a full unit of Wyches dies to a stiff breeze on turn 3, they will have acomplished almost nothing. If a full unit of Warriors dies to a slighty stiffer breeze on turn 3, they will have at least gotten to do SOME damage and required a bit more of the enemy's firepower to take out. They also will have cost you less points.
ShadarLogoth wrote: This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade.
Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.
And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers? A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.
This is why your argument falls flat on its face. They are terrible because they have no way of reliably making it into combat. If a full unit of Wyches dies to a stiff breeze on turn 3, they will have acomplished almost nothing. If a full unit of Warriors dies to a slighty stiffer breeze on turn 3, they will have at least gotten to do SOME damage and required a bit more of the enemy's firepower to take out. They also will have cost you less points.
You've honestly never seen Wyches get into CC? Honestly? Is that honestly what you are saying here?
Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.
It's a reasonable assumption to make. 10 Tacs cost about as much as 10 Wychers with an upgraded Hekatrix. A single Flamer isn't going to do much. You are making some wildly incorrect assumptions here.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.
I didn't assume a single thing. In normal operating circumstances, Wyches can take Tacs and everything else you mentioned. I don't need to assume anything to make that true,
And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers?
They don't. Wyches also don't need them to take them out. Wyches can take out equally costed TH/SS terms. You really think they are going to struggle with Side? Give me a break.
A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.
That's incredibly rich and satisfying to read. Thank you for this moment.
Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").
Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.
ShadarLogoth wrote: This whole post assumes you don't take the rather basic Hekatrix/Agonizer upgrade.
Yes, it does. And do you know why? Because if we assume that the unit is taking the hekatrix/agonizer upgrade, than we should also assume that the unit they're assaulting is going to have upgrades as well, and it's only going to take a single flamer/heavy flamer to ruin your wyches day.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making by assuming optimal conditions for the Wyches (decked out with all the gear/IC's/vehicle needed to reach their target in one piece) while assuming that these are naked, bare squads just sitting around waiting to be assaulted.
And why do 2+sv Broadsides care about agonizers? A man who likes to make personal attacks about other people's knowledge of the game should probably make sure he actually knows what he's talking about.
Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.
Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.
I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.
I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.
Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.
I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.
I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.
The example also assumed that you were charging a tactical marine unit out of the open so that you get every model of the unit to the base contact, no one dies on everwatch and you get to strike first because no one had to go through cover. Certainly plausible, but quite amazing feat to accomplish on the battlefield.
There is also a factor that the rending is quite unreliable. You could end up rolling a little less (or little more) sixes and end up tied to those tactical marines, slowly losing your squad (or quickly by failing the morale check after bad round of combat).
All the comparisons and Mathhammer regarding Wyches here is rather amusing. You don't need to do any new analysis on Wyches because they haven't gained anything so the comparisons (both theoretical and from actual in game use for several years across 2 editions) have already been done and their usefulness is already clearly established. Wyches were only used as Haywire delivery systems in the old codex so I would like to know what people are smoking to to make them think that they are suddenly going to become a viable unit when the only thing that has happened is that they have lost options (no Haywire, no Nightshields, no Duke to get a decent Drug result etc).
Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").
Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.
The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.
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The example also assumed that you were charging a tactical marine unit out of the open so that you get every model of the unit to the base contact, no one dies on everwatch and you get to strike first because no one had to go through cover. Certainly plausible, but quite amazing feat to accomplish on the battlefield.
Fair point. It was simply a though experiment on the damage potential.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Powerguy :: They have gained something. The new PfP mechanic is clearly better for how Wyches operate. Not have to pay 3 points/model to get them FNP is a significant change. Also, they actually have a chance to get T4, allowing the FNP to help against 6/7 range weapons. Their weapons are also more cost effective now. Is it enough? I don't know, but it's factually incorrect to say nothing has changed when it clearly has.
Wyches are comparably a lot better against the thunder hammer terminators, as they pay a lot of points for their thunderhammers and shields which are of no use against wyches, where the broadsides get to the same end result (ok tehy don't ignore the fnp) by their fists alone and use the points on the weapons that they can use for overwatch (and to blast the wyches from the table starting from a distance of 30").
Edit: You actually need 28,7 wych attacks to make a single wound to a 2+ save t4 ws3 model. When the same model with strenght 5 (wounding on 2+ and leaving fnp) needs 7,3 attacks.
The distance would be covered pretty quickly in a Raider. All things being equal, the sides would kill the Raider, get assaulted by ~8 Wyches after Overwatch, and the girls would win CC after about 4 or 5 rounds.
Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad
They do have Nighshields. In fact, 3+ Jinking Raiders is a pretty big difference as well.
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Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad
I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.
They do have Nighshields. In fact, 3+ Jinking Raiders is a pretty big difference as well.
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Except three broadsides with high iyeld missile pods and smart missiles kill on average bit over five wyches in overwatch and with a single markerlight hit from a quite possible marker drones it goes up to 9,3. i.e. the whole squad
I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.
Isn't the whole idea here tarpitting the unit? If the prices are equal there is no tarpitting happening as both forces have equal share of their force tied up. Although I must say that in the reality the broadside unit is way undercosted and the wyches overcosted, so in that way it makes sense
Isn't the whole idea here tarpitting the unit? If the prices are equal there is no tarpitting happening as both forces have equal share of their force tied up. Although I must say that in the reality the broadside unit is way undercosted and the wyches overcosted, so in that way it makes sense
Not necessarily from a strategic standpoint. Lets say the Sides were on an objective or something.
But, you are correct in your estimation the Misslesides would be pretty tough to assault due to Overwatch. You would probably have to mitigate that one way or another.
Anyways the whole problem behind this is that the nature of the game is so unbalanced with the armies being so diverse, that it would need a miracle of somesort to get most of the stuff "playable". Hence the game is much better when you just don't care about it and hope that your opponent thinks the same. I have been playing with warp talons, thousand sons, hellions, incubi, 5th ed. aspect warriors, stealth suits, etc. a lot and while they suck big time, they look cool and if somehow they get something done, it's as big of a joy than winning the game.
That said, even my humour isn't enough to update to the new book and invalidate all of the stuff why I play with my dark eldar army in the first place (i.e. the cool and unique options of the wwp, characterful special characters to base the army, etc.)
ShadarLogoth wrote: It's a reasonable assumption to make. 10 Tacs cost about as much as 10 Wychers with an upgraded Hekatrix. A single Flamer isn't going to do much. You are making some wildly incorrect assumptions here.
Let's break it down then:
Wyches assault. 10 marines, one with a flamer, is putting an average of three wounds on Wyches in overwatch. 7 Wyches make it into assault. The 6 wyches are putting out 18 attacks, which will hit on 4+'s, killing 1 marine on average. The Hekatrix is putting out 4 AP3 attacks that hit on 4's and wound on 4's, which nets an average of one dead marine. The remaining eight marines return fire with 9 attacks, strength 4 and hitting on 4's, which will kill on average 2 wyches. End of round one and you have an average of 5 dead wyches and 2 dead marines. Second round, the four wyches will kill zero marines on average, while the Hekatrix will kill 1- the Marines will kill 1 and you stay tied in that slap fight for a few more turns, until all the wyches are dead near the end of the game. So congrats, by spending 190 points you've managed to successfully tarpit and ultimately lose your entire squad to.... a 150 point, 10-man tactical marine squad armed with just a flamer. Tactical acuity at its finest.
And then there's Space Wolves, who'll just outright whoop Wyches because of counter-attack. 3 dead wyches from overwatch + 3 dead wyches in assault from 17 strength 4 melee attacks = lost combat. And that's assuming they have only one flamer- they can purchase a second one.
I didn't assume a single thing. In normal operating circumstances, Wyches can take Tacs and everything else you mentioned. I don't need to assume anything to make that true,
Yeah, because of course difficult terrain does not exist, or at the least no one playing against your list will ever think "hmmm, none of his assault units have grenades, maybe I should put the units that I don't want potentially getting tarpitted into difficult terrain so that his Wyches strike last and improve my chances of winning the combat." No one ever plays Space Wolves or Iron Hands or any army where their units are simply mathematically superior in assault to your wyches. No one ever puts upgrades on their units or takes more than one special weapon if they do, no one ever bubble-wraps or supports units that they don't want getting tar-pitted by your wyches who lack EMP grenades and so only exist to try to get into CC with something.
Nope, no assumptions at all. It's a fact that everyone who plays against Dark Eldar is an idiot who doesn't know how to list build or set up his units on the table to minimize the possibility of your T3 6+/6++ units riding around in paper-mache' vehicles getting into CC with his most vital units unscathed.
They don't. Wyches also don't need them to take them out.
No, but they need to do put out at least one wound to avoid losing combat, which they won't on average. It's not a very good tarpit if it fails morale and runs away, is it?
Wyches can take out equally costed TH/SS terms.
In what situation are 10 Wyches going to be equally costed to terminators, who clock in at a minimum of 200 points?
ShadarLogoth wrote: I was thinking 2 Sides, not three. The unit you are describing would be significantly more expensive then a unit of Girls and a Raider.
How is this an argument? Wyches are 10ppm, most things you would want to try to tarpit are going to be significantly more expensive than them.
Why do you bother? Let them field those wyches, have them die horribly, achieving little. Together with those Reavers, that are so amazing that they kill tactical marines half their cost. Because we all know, tactical marines are what DE really struggle with, since they lack any kind of firepower that could take them out.
I don't know why you are getting so upset about this. The tactical marines in the example I gave for the Reavers would cost about the same amount of points. Maybe slightly less, but certainly not half.
I really don't understand why people get so irrationally pot comitted to their notion that unit X is bad. If people like a unit, and having success with that unit, who are you to try to invalidate their very real success on the internet? It's such a strange and alien notion to me.
I don't understand why people defend the units, that have received uncalled for and irrational nerfs. We should all be upset. I know GW is probably not going to give a crap anyway, but there is absolutely nothing to be happy about, when we're talking about Wyches, Reavers (and more). It's not that they are useless or something. It's just that they could've been handled much better. It's not even about the power level of the book in general. It's just that the army got a little bit more boring. Remember 4th ed Necrons? They rocked the tables, but they were the most boring army ever made.
I'm also sad that my favourite DE model has lost purpose in my army. I loved the fluffy flyby attack.
Wyches assault. 10 marines, one with a flamer, is putting an average of three wounds on Wyches in overwatch.
First, ~1 Marine dies from the pistol shots. Then, ~2 Wyches die to Overwatch.
7 Wyches make it into assault. The 6 wyches are putting out 18 attacks, which will hit on 4+'s, killing 1 marine on average. The Hekatrix is putting out 4 AP3 attacks that hit on 4's and wound on 4's, which nets an average of one dead marine. The remaining eight marines return fire with 9 attacks, strength 4 and hitting on 4's, which will kill on average 2 wyches. End of round one and you have an average of 5 dead wyches and 2 dead marines. Second round, the four wyches will kill zero marines on average, while the Hekatrix will kill 1- the Marines will kill 1 and you stay tied in that slap fight for a few more turns, until all the wyches are dead near the end of the game.
Okay, a couple things wrong here. First, as mentioned about, the fight will likely start off 8 Wyches versus 9 Tacs. Second, the Wyches will have something from drugs, and 5/6 results help them with this fight. Lets try +1 Attack just for fun.
Normal Wyches kill 1.55 + Heka kills 1.25. That's pretty close to 3.
6 Tacs left kill .78. We'll call it 1.
So at the end of one round of CC it's 7 Wyches versus 6 Tacs. The agonizer alone kills a Tac/turn and the tacs do less then 1 Wyche/turn. Do I need to keep going?
So congrats, by spending 190 points you've managed to successfully tarpit and ultimately lose your entire squad to.... a 150 point, 10-man tactical marine squad armed with just a flamer.
190 points of what? 10 Wyches, Hekatrix/Agonizer=135. Just to be equal to the Tacs you would need to give the girls Wych Weapons or something.
And, as demonstrated above, the Wyches win. So, yeah, I would say thats a good investment.
Tactical acuity at its finest.
Indeed.
And then there's Space Wolves, who'll just outright whoop Wyches because of counter-attack. 3 dead wyches from overwatch + 3 dead wyches in assault from 17 strength 4 melee attacks = lost combat. And that's assuming they have only one flamer- they can purchase a second one.
If Counter Attack goes off....
Yeah, because of course difficult terrain does not exist, or at the least no one playing against your list will ever think "hmmm, none of his assault units have grenades, maybe I should put the units that I don't want potentially getting tarpitted into difficult terrain so that his Wyches strike last and improve my chances of winning the combat." No one ever plays Space Wolves or Iron Hands or any army where their units are simply mathematically superior in assault to your wyches. No one ever puts upgrades on their units or takes more than one special weapon if they do, no one ever bubble-wraps or supports units that they don't want getting tar-pitted by your wyches who lack EMP grenades and so only exist to try to get into CC with something.
Wyches have assault grenades.
Nope, no assumptions at all. It's a fact that everyone who plays against Dark Eldar is an idiot who doesn't know how to list build or set up his units on the table to minimize the possibility of your T3 6+/6++ units riding around in paper-mache' vehicles getting into CC with his most vital units unscathed.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
No, but they need to do put out at least one wound to avoid losing combat, which they won't on average. It's not a very good tarpit if it fails morale and runs away, is it?
Sure, that's definitely a possibility. Many things in this game are statistically possible.
In what situation are 10 Wyches going to be equally costed to terminators, who clock in at a minimum of 200 points?
They aren't. That wasn't the point.
most things you would want to try to tarpit are going to be significantly more expensive than them.
Most things you would want to tarpit aren't going to have the nasty Overwatch capabilities of Misslesides either.
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I don't understand why people defend the units, that have received uncalled for and irrational nerfs. We should all be upset. I know GW is probably not going to give a crap anyway, but there is absolutely nothing to be happy about, when we're talking about Wyches, Reavers (and more). It's not that they are useless or something. It's just that they could've been handled much better. It's not even about the power level of the book in general. It's just that the army got a little bit more boring. Remember 4th ed Necrons? They rocked the tables, but they were the most boring army ever made.
I'm also sad that my favourite DE model has lost purpose in my army. I loved the fluffy flyby attack.
I definitely understand that sentiment. I just don't agree that Wyches got nerfed, other then Haywire, which was definitely a nerf to that specific Wyche build. I'm just trying to illuminate that normal Wyches have actually been buffed, at least a little, and that's worth looking at.
Also, with Reavers, I merely think they've been changed. Using Reavers as a quick striking Assault platform appears to be much better then many people would initially anticipate.
Ah, fair enough. Thought it still required an Ld test.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the flipside, though, the more I look at Lelith, the more disappointed I get.
She lost -1 Attack to everyone in BtB, a boat load of attacks against basic nubs, just to be slightly better in challenges? Oh, and WS10? Because feth Bloodthirsters (not that she'll ever wound one)? She should have gotten the Impaler for free.
But, yeah, I would rather pay the 25 points and get the old Lili back.
Also, with Reavers, I merely think they've been changed. Using Reavers as a quick striking Assault platform appears to be much better then many people would initially anticipate.
Reavers are better than ever. In fact I think they're exceptional.
Also in this Wych analysis why aren't people factoring in combat drugs? I know they're random and one of them is pretty useless but the rest have real benefits. A S4, +1A, +1T, or WS5 Wych squad really shifts the odds. Give one Hydra gauntlets and maybe S4 and they become more punch for 10 point models.
lastly, if we're factoring in overwatch then why not the Wych's shooting phase on the way in? Four pistols and a plasma grenade should kill a marine.
Looking at the codex I think I can certainly get better value overall than I did with the last, but it doesn't feel like it's been brought up to date with 7th edition. Where is the Ignores Cover, Skyfire, etc. that is so prevalent in the rest of the game?
I feel our HQ choices are quite frankly, terrible. Urien is maybe ok but beyond that I'm sticking a Blaster on my Archon and that's it.
RE Wyches they needed some kind of buff to justify 10 ppm, whether it be 4++ vs Overwatch, Rending attacks just something. Compare to Ork Boyz at 6 ppm and you realise they aren't good value.
. Liquifier will still be king even with the other gun (only one shot), and ST3.
