MajorWesJanson wrote: Shadowfield didn't need a points boost, it needed a line "This save may not be rerolled"
Agreed. If it fails, it fails, deal with it. Having to pay more for it because there's the possibility that if you've allied in psykers & have rolled the right powers and managed to cast each time without it being denied *pauses for breath* ...that you can reroll the one.
I really hope that not all of this rumors are true ,because there is not even a single buffed unit that we can use as core of the army (mandrakes doesnt count)
Vargheist wrote: I really hope that not all of this rumors are true ,because there is not even a single buffed unit that we can use as core of the army (mandrakes doesnt count)
Looks like Shard Carbine Trueborn in raiders with splinter racks and nightshields.
It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time. No Dais, no dice. No thanks, GW. I will continue to use my 5th codex. Those in my gaming circle have never complained about my 5th codex, so I see no reason to change to a codex that doesn't have the rules for all the models in my army. My hope is that most non-tournament players do the same. Also, what is the point of removing all the conversion possibilities from a codex? Units that don't have models inspire the hobby. It engages the imagination and has hobbyists searching the GW webstore for bits, then spending 4x as much as they would on a single unit from the shelf. The GW hobby I love is fading away. I love to see unique conversions from the imagination of the community. It's inspiring. Stripping the hobby of this takes away so much of the customization and personalizing of armies. I am going to miss that aspect of the hobby. No more new units to get exited about conversions ideas from the community. That is the reality right now. It seems that those who are going to buy this codex are doing so with their tails between their legs like beaten dogs. DON'T DO IT IF YOU AREN'T HAPPY WITH THE RULES CHANGES. I am not. Please do not be the mindless, automaton, one-dimensional people that GW think you are. PLEASE DON'T BUY THIS CODEX IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE ABSENCE OF THE SPECIAL CHARACTERS. Do not be OK with this. PLEASE DO NOT BUY THIS IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE ABSENCE OF A LOW IN A 7TH BOOK.
DO NOT BUY IT AND SEE IF YOU LIKE IT. READ IT IN THE STORE AND THEN BUY IT IF YOU FEEL THAT IT"S WORTH $50 TO NOT GET WHAT YOU WANT. This gak has got to stop. GW is doing it wrong and they need to f**king know.
EYEofTERROR wrote: It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time. No Dais, no dice. No thanks, GW. I will continue to use my 5th codex. Those in my gaming circle have never complained about my 5th codex, so I see no reason to change to a codex that doesn't have the rules for all the models in my army. My hope is that most non-tournament players do the same. Also, what is the point of removing all the conversion possibilities from a codex? Units that don't have models inspire the hobby. It engages the imagination and has hobbyists searching the GW webstore for bits, then spending 4x as much as they would on a single unit from the shelf. The GW hobby I love is fading away. I love to see unique conversions from the imagination of the community. It's inspiring.
GW is in the process of removing everything and anything that doesn't have an official kit. It goes back to the whole "use official Citadel woods" for the new Wood Elf book (and obviously much further)- if there isn't a model for it, GW doesn't want it in their books anymore.
EYEofTERROR wrote: It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time.
Templars. At least you're not folded into Eldar.
I can't recall exactly, but didn't you guys end up losing the rules for the Emperor's Champion with that change? I know there were changes people were largely unhappy with.
extremefreak17 wrote: Still currious as to why we have "codex leaks" without pictures.
This seems to be what happens with most releases- we get these posts of information that are usually pretty consistent with what's in the book, and then a day or two later someone who has the book gets brave enough to leak the actual pages.
Plus, most of the information leaked is consistent with previous codex releases. The removal of all special characters/options that don't have models, retweaks of some units, unexplicable worsening of units that weren't amazing in the first place (i.e. wyches with no haywire grenades), and dulling of interesting abilities with the unrecognized loss of total ability for other units (i.e. reavers losing bladevane attacks, they have no ability to do anything now).
And of course some units will get a bit better, yes. But you'll have lost so much effectiveness elsewhere you're almost back to waiting for the next book! (Just the way GW likes it )
I wish I could say this isn't how it is, but...well...
I'm still waiting. Not that I think these rumored changes are bad, but the echo chamber is hilarious. Faeit, BoLS, Warseer forums --- everyone is reposting the EXACT same words written in an anonymous /tg post from last night and crediting it to "Anonymous sources."
Not same rules, the exact same words.
Taking all this with a MAMMOTH grain of salt until we see some scans and/or proof anyone has the book in their hands. Until then this will be like a free Ragnar with drop pods.
The reason we got the SW Logan Claus and won't be getting the Vect-the-Hutt skimmer is because the former is Space Marines. And Space Marines sell, riding wolves, holding guitars-whatever derivative of Marine there is, it will sell.
The Vect kit is too big to be worth the investment in GW's mind. In the old days, they would have left the model in the book for your converting delight. But these are the new days, where anything that doesn't have a model has to go.
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this (and apologies if I ever come off that way), but this is the M.O. GW works under now.
EYEofTERROR wrote: It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time.
Templars. At least you're not folded into Eldar.
Oh yeah, damn near Squated. OUCH. I guess being "Harlequined" is more accurate. Another example of a missed opportunity by GW. No reason Templars couldn't at least be a digital dex with new units comprised of existing kitbashed kits; Sword Brethren Terminators with GK heads, arms, legs and Forge world shields, etc. GW should be encouraging army wide converting, not discouraging converting entirely.OFF TOPIC, but were I to perform a hostile take over of the company (only way the right person will get the job) I would immediately start releasing armies for models that already exist. Zero production costs minus the books, which should just be digital anyway as these would not be the mainstream armies. Renegade Militarum would be the first. It would use existing models from the AM range mixed with cultists or forsaken, for HQs; add in Dark Apostles, CSM Lords and Sorcerers, renegade psykers, daemon princes and spawn, love to see renegade assassins, and a renegade Taurox would be awesome. Instant new 40k army. Hell, 40k started off as converted fantasy models and it's not like the rules are important. Grey Knights didn't get a single new model, either. Next, Genestealer cults. Again, using existing AM models kitbashed and mixed with genestealers. Just use only bald heads and paint the skin purplish. Give the cultists access to Taurox and sentinels and have them run along side lesser bugs like Rippers and Gargoyles. 3+ units of various types of genestealers, maybe a unit of just broodlords, that can be buffed by the synapse Magus' unique psychic powers. Use a converted Empire wizard for the Magus. Next....Exodite Eldar....the models are already out there for this stuff to become a reality. It seems too easy to me. Everyone would be stoked to convert and spend way too much money.
Any Dark Eldar player actually inspired by the new codex? The new models are nice, but does the Codex inspire you? So far, this codex has inspired thoughts of selling my Dark Eldar, but I love the models and the old codex, so I think I will keep them and use the old rules, which are still inspiring. Thank you Phil Kelly. F-U GW.
Any Dark Eldar player actually inspired by the new codex? The new models are nice, but does the Codex inspire you? So far, this codex has inspired thoughts of selling my Dark Eldar, but I love the models and the old codex, so I think I will keep them and use the old rules, which are still inspiring. Thank you Phil Kelly. F-U GW.
I was expecting the worst and kept my excitement measured. It's more a problem with 40k right now that the codex as a whole. It seems all the uniqueness and creativity is being bred out of 40k and put into fantasy. I can't help but feel like this is what happens when too many people complain about unique race-based special rules in favor of making it a streamlined tournament game, regardless of what GW says about the tourney scene. We get watered down codexes with USRs instead of interesting stuff.
Assuming the rumors are accurate, I think the DE become a better playing army with less flavor. The PFP change is superior and means it will be very tough to move a kabalite squad off a backfield objective in late turns.
Deep striking transports opens up a lot of alpha strike opportunities with blasterborn, and if Raiders get thrown in FA like most transports have in 7th dexes, it means there's a big potential to stick Fire Dragons or Wraithguard in there too.
I'm still excited to try new lists, but as someone who likes uniqueness and interesting differences in armies there's a reason I'm playing a lot more fantasy now than 40k,
Any Dark Eldar player actually inspired by the new codex? The new models are nice, but does the Codex inspire you? So far, this codex has inspired thoughts of selling my Dark Eldar, but I love the models and the old codex, so I think I will keep them and use the old rules, which are still inspiring. Thank you Phil Kelly. F-U GW.
I was expecting the worst and kept my excitement measured. It's more a problem with 40k right now that the codex as a whole. It seems all the uniqueness and creativity is being bred out of 40k and put into fantasy. I can't help but feel like this is what happens when too many people complain about unique race-based special rules in favor of making it a streamlined tournament game, regardless of what GW says about the tourney scene. We get watered down codexes with USRs instead of interesting stuff.
Assuming the rumors are accurate, I think the DE become a better playing army with less flavor. The PFP change is superior and means it will be very tough to move a kabalite squad off a backfield objective in late turns.
Deep striking transports opens up a lot of alpha strike opportunities with blasterborn, and if Raiders get thrown in FA like most transports have in 7th dexes, it means there's a big potential to stick Fire Dragons or Wraithguard in there too.
I'm still excited to try new lists, but as someone who likes uniqueness and interesting differences in armies there's a reason I'm playing a lot more fantasy now than 40k,
I think this would be true if GW actually paid attention to the customers. But they've said themselves that they don't do market research, and I can't see playstyle analysis being something even in their radar if market doesn't matter!
Plus, the game doesn't have to become bland with removal of unique race-based special rules. GW could always go the route of WMH and have a huge master list of USRs that only pop up on units from time to time (like with the reavers having the blade vane attacks- that could be made into a USR that I'm sure could be applied to another unit in a different army). The uniqueness could come from interesting combinations of USRs, and then each army can still have its own unique race abilities (like PFP for instance).
I think 40k's troubles just come from the fact that GW doesn't give a damn. There's no need to produce high quality rules material because people buy the stuff no matter what- 40k is the biggest tabletop game out there! (and in their opinion, can never be challenged). WHFBhas suffered tremendously, which is why we're seeing some genuine effort being put into new materials. The game is at a point of "sink-or-float"- even GW can see tanking sales numbers and realize change is necessary. I just think they'll end up applying the same mindset to 40k, which is a terrible since the health of 40k is tantamount to GW's continued success as a business.
Don't DS transports count as cruising speed? Therefore Trueborn, or whatever, will be snap-shotting the turn they arrive, Splinter Racks will mitigate this slightly, but you're looking at facing a turn of fire and/or assault before getting a chance to act at full effectiveness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, my bad, it's combat speed, so not as bad.
Azreal13 wrote: Don't DS transports count as cruising speed? Therefore Trueborn, or whatever, will be snap-shotting the turn they arrive, Splinter Racks will mitigate this slightly, but you're looking at facing a turn of fire and/or assault before getting a chance to act at full effectiveness.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah, my bad, it's combat speed, so not as bad.
And you can also disembark now in 7th. Could be usefull to get that extra range for some allied Scytheguard.
Azreal13 wrote: Don't DS transports count as cruising speed? Therefore Trueborn, or whatever, will be snap-shotting the turn they arrive, Splinter Racks will mitigate this slightly, but you're looking at facing a turn of fire and/or assault before getting a chance to act at full effectiveness.
Nope, count as combat speed after arriving via DS per the entry in the BRB. They'll fire at full BS.
If the rumors are true about Kabalites down down 1 pt, and Trueborn being a 3pt upgrade with no limit on special weapons we're looking at 165 pts for a deep striking venom with 5 blasterborn. Which is 30 pts cheaper than s combi-sternguard squad. Not bad for a suicide unit.
And you can also disembark now in 7th. Could be usefull to get that extra range for some allied Scytheguard.
Yes, also in a dual-cannon venom it means the blasterborn/whatever can concentrate on transports/vehicles while still pumping the venom shots into a backfield infantry unit or MC.
Finally, if the relics are true there are some serious leadership shenanigans you can do with an allied telepathy farseer or a spirit seer. Terrify them for -1 LD, throw them with a relic armor Archon for -2 then shriek, in the following shooting phase hit them with the torment launcher.
Azreal13 wrote: Don't DS transports count as cruising speed? Therefore Trueborn, or whatever, will be snap-shotting the turn they arrive, Splinter Racks will mitigate this slightly, but you're looking at facing a turn of fire and/or assault before getting a chance to act at full effectiveness.
Nope, count as combat speed after arriving via DS per the entry in the BRB. They'll fire at full BS.
If the rumors are true about Kabalites down down 1 pt, and Trueborn being a 3pt upgrade with no limit on special weapons we're looking at 165 pts for a deep striking venom with 5 blasterborn. Which is 30 pts cheaper than s combi-sternguard squad. Not bad for a suicide unit.
And you can also disembark now in 7th. Could be usefull to get that extra range for some allied Scytheguard.
Yes, also in a dual-cannon venom it means the blasterborn/whatever can concentrate on transports/vehicles while still pumping the venom shots into a backfield infantry unit or MC.
Finally, if the relics are true there are some serious leadership shenanigans you can do with an allied telepathy farseer or a spirit seer. Terrify them for -1 LD, throw them with a relic armor Archon for -2 then shriek, in the following shooting phase hit them with the torment launcher.
Roll the Spiritseer on Runes of Battle, try for Horrify. (-3 LD)
If the rumors are true about Kabalites down down 1 pt, and Trueborn being a 3pt upgrade with no limit on special weapons we're looking at 165 pts for a deep striking venom with 5 blasterborn. Which is 30 pts cheaper than s combi-sternguard squad. Not bad for a suicide unit.
Hey Auswin, is someone leaking points costs now? Where can I go to read this?
lambsandlions wrote: I am just sad that we have not heard that Archons can take jetbikes/skyboards/scourge wings. I just want my Archons to be able to join those squads.
I wouldn't hold your breath on these options unfortunately. No official models = no option (excluding Space Marines, which have so many kits than even GW recognizes easy conversion potential).
Mechanical Crow wrote: Its going to be interesting how this interacts with the Eldar book. A lot of it looks like Rent-a-raider for the eldar CC units.
Good thing - My Howling Banshees may actually have a way to be used...........I can Have Incubi on one and Banshees on another and have a competition betyween them
Bad thing - my Raiders just become even better targets for everyones favourite OP unit - Cheese Serpents :(
Maybe I'm on an island, but I'm excited. Prior to Grey Knights I was gutted by the changes and felt the army was going to suck due to a lack of AT (which they do without allies) but in playtesting them they performed a lot better.
If these are the rumors that are causing people to think the sky is falling then I think the Dark Eldar are positioned well.
Will they immediately become a top-table force? Hell no. There are matchups they will struggle with as a solo army. Anything with drop pods and long-range ignores cover will hurt, badly. That said, I think the army will be in a better place than it was.
Some of the proposed nerfs suck (again, if rumors are to be believed). I love Huskblades and didn't think they were OP at AP2, but I guess I understand.
The tradeoff for deep striking vehicles, an overhauled PFP and 3+ jinks on nightshields are all pretty big changes that give more survivability.
The ability to stash a unit of kabalites in the backfield puts your opponent on a timer. If you have an objective nearby they'll have to find a way to kill them before turn 5, otherwise it will be very tough to move 20 bodies with 5+ FNP and Fearless.
Actually making the Archon court good has big ramifications and a lot of interesting ways to form a bodyguard.
Finally the potential for allies with craftworld and devastating. Losing the Baron hurts, but that was absolutely going or getting his rule removed.
Heck, throwing a few Warlocks in a venom to move around and buff DE units has huge potential. It could mean Incubi hitting at S6 on the charge, or giving them 2+ armor.
Well , I dont belive any of this rumors until codex comes out or i see photos , because currently on 4chan we have like 3 different opinions about everythig in the codex and i think most of this is simply fake.
So lets w8 this week and then start crying .
Regarding the 4chan rumours: the one with Torment Grenade Launchers sounds asinine and unlikely. A minor assault-deterrent upgrade that suddenly can kill several models, including Chaos Terminators, but not something that has ATSKNF?
Also, what's with the Hex Rifle that inflicts ID on Precision Shots? Somebody's forgotten that in 7th Edition the model either has explicit Precision Shots USR or it can't make them?
Venom Blade can be taken only by an Acothyst? What about the Venom Blade that comes with the Scourges kit?
There is a number of other rumours that contradict one another depending on the source, like the Fliers having 5++ upgrade but no Flickerfields save for Venoms. In short, pics or didn't happen.
SarisKhan wrote: Regarding the 4chan rumours: the one with Torment Grenade Launchers sounds asinine and unlikely. A minor assault-deterrent upgrade that suddenly can kill several models, including Chaos Terminators, but not something that has ATSKNF?
Also, what's with the Hex Rifle that inflicts ID on Precision Shots? Somebody's forgotten that in 7th Edition the model either has explicit Precision Shots USR or it can't make them?
Venom Blade can be taken only by an Acothyst? What about the Venom Blade that comes with the Scourges kit?
There is a number of other rumours that contradict one another depending on the source, like the Fliers having 5++ upgrade but no Flickerfields save for Venoms. In short, pics or didn't happen.
I'm right there with you. There's a lot of weirdness. I could see the alleged Torment Launcher not working against Fearless, but I can't think of a single item in all of 40k that calls for it not to work against an army-specific special rule.
Also, the Ossefactor listed is simply too good. Fleshbane AND AP2 means basically an instawound. Hit at 30 man squad of Boyz and suddenly 10-15 are gone.
SarisKhan wrote: Regarding the 4chan rumours: the one with Torment Grenade Launchers sounds asinine and unlikely. A minor assault-deterrent upgrade that suddenly can kill several models, including Chaos Terminators, but not something that has ATSKNF?
Also, what's with the Hex Rifle that inflicts ID on Precision Shots? Somebody's forgotten that in 7th Edition the model either has explicit Precision Shots USR or it can't make them?
Venom Blade can be taken only by an Acothyst? What about the Venom Blade that comes with the Scourges kit?
There is a number of other rumours that contradict one another depending on the source, like the Fliers having 5++ upgrade but no Flickerfields save for Venoms. In short, pics or didn't happen.
Yea I have to mirror this. Though certain aspects seem true which is troubling. I absolutely believe that any cool fear inducing items we have will not work on marines. Which is dumb, but definitely believable.
Well to be fair, with the leaked rules, the max an ossefactor could ever kill would be 7. 1+D6, that would aslo assume the all to wound rolles were made and all saves were failed.
extremefreak17 wrote: Well to be fair, with the leaked rules, the max an ossefactor could ever kill would be 7. 1+D6, that would aslo assume the all to wound rolles were made and all saves were failed.
Aaah, that got edited or changed since I first saw the leak. Initially it said "all models in the unit suffered a hit equal to the toughness of the model killed."
Azreal13 wrote: Don't DS transports count as cruising speed? Therefore Trueborn, or whatever, will be snap-shotting the turn they arrive, Splinter Racks will mitigate this slightly, but you're looking at facing a turn of fire and/or assault before getting a chance to act at full effectiveness.
Nope, count as combat speed after arriving via DS per the entry in the BRB. They'll fire at full BS.
If the rumors are true about Kabalites down down 1 pt, and Trueborn being a 3pt upgrade with no limit on special weapons we're looking at 165 pts for a deep striking venom with 5 blasterborn. Which is 30 pts cheaper than s combi-sternguard squad. Not bad for a suicide unit.
People need to stop acting like DS on transports is a new tactic. It was their before and it sucked.
Comparing trueborn to sterns is a bad idea as well. I'd take the pod and sterns over the blasterborn even if it was a 50 point difference. They arrive turn one guaranteed, they can't mishap and can get closer, the pod is way more durable and irritating later, oh and so are the sternguard, and melta wins over blasters 9 times out of ten. Who cares that they are one shot weapons if they are throw away units? This was probably the worst comparison you could make. Oh and taking ten and combat squading cuts the difference using one pod when you consider you will want two DS reserved blaster born anyway for redundancy.
I do think their is some great sounding stuff, taloi units, 4 in 5 scourge weapons and royal courts. Nerfing of the bikes and wargear I think is what killed my positivity though.
extremefreak17 wrote: Well to be fair, with the leaked rules, the max an ossefactor could ever kill would be 7. 1+D6, that would aslo assume the all to wound rolles were made and all saves were failed.
Aaah, that got edited or changed since I first saw the leak. Initially it said "all models in the unit suffered a hit equal to the toughness of the model killed."
You had to say that, I was thinking it was gimmicky but cool. Now I wish it did what you thought
I'd say the one big difference about DSing Dark Eldar transports is that with point reductions they become more viable suicide units. Essentially it's just about getting them down and earning their points back off something bigger and badder.
I'll concede that Trueborn are no marines and that melta is far better than blasters, but I think a sub 175 pt unit is more of a throwaway than drop podding sternguard. Scatter is an issue, but assuming you don't need to pay for retrofire jets it's better overall.
Honestly, I'm also assuming the final webway portal will have "can arrive on turn one." 35 pts for no scatter is too expensive, there has to be a kicker to it.
Auswin wrote: I'd say the one big difference about DSing Dark Eldar transports is that with point reductions they become more viable suicide units. Essentially it's just about getting them down and earning their points back off something bigger and badder.
I'll concede that Trueborn are no marines and that melta is far better than blasters, but I think a sub 175 pt unit is more of a throwaway than drop podding sternguard. Scatter is an issue, but assuming you don't need to pay for retrofire jets it's better overall.
Honestly, I'm also assuming the final webway portal will have "can arrive on turn one." 35 pts for no scatter is too expensive, there has to be a kicker to it.
Well it also gives deepstrike to a unit that would not noramlly have it. Fire Dragons come to mind.
Auswin wrote: I'd say the one big difference about DSing Dark Eldar transports is that with point reductions they become more viable suicide units. Essentially it's just about getting them down and earning their points back off something bigger and badder.
I'll concede that Trueborn are no marines and that melta is far better than blasters, but I think a sub 175 pt unit is more of a throwaway than drop podding sternguard. Scatter is an issue, but assuming you don't need to pay for retrofire jets it's better overall.
Honestly, I'm also assuming the final webway portal will have "can arrive on turn one." 35 pts for no scatter is too expensive, there has to be a kicker to it.
I don't want it on turn 1. I want to wait until i've got FNP
Hexrifles were never great, just humorous when they did something big like pop a MC. Now they are basically just a sniper weapon, the gimmick is more gimmicky somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
I'm all for anything that would allow me to break out my scourges again. I love them, but they've always been lackluster for me. A price drop and multiple haywire shots are legit.
The three Talos thing is meta-changing for DE, but I'm still not sold that they'll be a unit. Thinking it could be someone misreading and seeing that they can be taken 1-3 in a single HS slot.
I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
I'm all for anything that would allow me to break out my scourges again. I love them, but they've always been lackluster for me. A price drop and multiple haywire shots are legit.
The three Talos thing is meta-changing for DE, but I'm still not sold that they'll be a unit. Thinking it could be someone misreading and seeing that they can be taken 1-3 in a single HS slot.
Well based on that white dwarf report its hard to tell how taloi will pan out. It was after all an apoc game by studio geeks.
REALLY want scourge to not suck, here here good sir!
Red Corsair wrote: Hexrifles were never great, just humorous when they did something big like pop a MC. Now they are basically just a sniper weapon, the gimmick is more gimmicky somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
Sorry, but I don't see the "4 in 5 can take special weapons" happening. If you want 4 Haywire Blasters, for instance, you need 2 boxes, (10 guys). GW won't want you to buy bits from online sources that break open boxes and sell them off as bits. Don't get me wrong, I'd be all over that. I just don't think it will happen, sadly.
Red Corsair wrote: Hexrifles were never great, just humorous when they did something big like pop a MC. Now they are basically just a sniper weapon, the gimmick is more gimmicky somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
Sorry, but I don't see the "4 in 5 can take special weapons" happening. If you want 4 Haywire Blasters, for instance, you need 2 boxes, (10 guys). GW won't want you to buy bits from online sources that break open boxes and sell them off as bits. Don't get me wrong, I'd be all over that. I just don't think it will happen, sadly.
And yet Devistators come with one of each type of heavy weapon. Where do you think all those other weapons come from? I've never seen anyone ever field devistators with just the box contents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So far what I'm reading isn't exactly making me excited. Rather indifferent. I've stopped actually playing the game, but when guys like Vect are removed it just kills any interest that I might have had about playing the game.
Not that I ever fielded Vect or had any intention of fielding him. But when such iconic characters are removed, the whole army flavor and feel just suffers.
Red Corsair wrote: Hexrifles were never great, just humorous when they did something big like pop a MC. Now they are basically just a sniper weapon, the gimmick is more gimmicky somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
Sorry, but I don't see the "4 in 5 can take special weapons" happening. If you want 4 Haywire Blasters, for instance, you need 2 boxes, (10 guys). GW won't want you to buy bits from online sources that break open boxes and sell them off as bits. Don't get me wrong, I'd be all over that. I just don't think it will happen, sadly.
And yet Devistators come with one of each type of heavy weapon. Where do you think all those other weapons come from? I've never seen anyone ever field devistators with just the box contents.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with Jayden. GW doesn't want units for models that they don't currently sell, but having to buy multiple of the same kit is well within their prerogative. It's just those darn bitz sellers that get in the way! /s
Power form pain was fine for me
Night shields are not as good now
Wyches are still total drek against other infantry - you know the ones they are supposed to be better against - should have just copied the stats from Dark Elf Witch Elves. I bet they still have WS 4 FFS.
PFP didn't play a huge roll from me. It was a tricky lock/key to get more than two units with descent buffs. Those were almost always Incubi.
Night shields will take some getting used to.
Witches are awesome anti-vehicle because of the Haywire grenades. Amazingly so. Let the long range troops with tons of poison deal with the infantry.
Wyches will also get a boost from the new PFP rules. As you no longer have to kill a unit to get FNP, they suddenly now get a save vs. overwatch and suddenly have two saves in that first round of combat. I really think large units of Wyches might become viable again as something more than just Haywire delivery systems.
Moopy wrote: I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.
Red Corsair wrote: Hexrifles were never great, just humorous when they did something big like pop a MC. Now they are basically just a sniper weapon, the gimmick is more gimmicky somehow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I REALLY hope scourge drop to ~17ppm and 4 in 5 can take haywire blasters. That coupled with 3 man Talos units with TL haywire blasters will basically save our AT issue over night freeing up other slots that were necessary to dedicate toward more darklight spamming.
Sorry, but I don't see the "4 in 5 can take special weapons" happening. If you want 4 Haywire Blasters, for instance, you need 2 boxes, (10 guys). GW won't want you to buy bits from online sources that break open boxes and sell them off as bits. Don't get me wrong, I'd be all over that. I just don't think it will happen, sadly.
Yet currently there are more then enough weapons for all five to have some special/heavy weapon. GW doesn't care what the config is. As jayden pointed out, almost every other army has multiple units that can field gear that requires more then one box. Prior to the update I used to field 5 scourge with 4 splinter canons, the fifth ed codex nerfed them into the 2 per five crap, I am hoping they fix this. Scourge may well become the next big thing. Points adjust and allowing 4 per five is all it would take to make them amazing actually.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moopy wrote: I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.
Well thats fine for you, but some of us play against massed twin linked and wall of flame up the wazoo opponents making them dead on arrival.
Wyches worked best for me as a way to tie down terminators for long periods of time. Throw 10 into a squad of TH/SS and they'd tie them up for at least two turns.
I'm hoping the dodge save works against overwatch, but that's probably hoping for too much. If they don't keep mass haywire they'll almost never see the table for me.
Moopy wrote: I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.
Well thats fine for you, but some of us play against massed twin linked and wall of flame up the wazoo opponents making them dead on arrival.
Tesla too does terrible things to my byches, every single time. I, and my opponents, always felt they should get their dodge save against overwatch, as it *is* in the close combat phase and they would be doing *exactly* what their dodge save describes as they twist and tumble into finger-nails-in-the-eyballs range.
If even a few of these rumors are true, it's feeling very lackluster. Sorely disappointed to go into my GW and not be able to ensure I get the set of cards. Left my new wracks and hammie sitting on the counter and walked out empty handed instead. My failcast hammies and wracks have been sufficient so far, I suppose they will continue to be.
FWIW, the new Haemy model is beautiful and took no more than 10 mins to assemble. It's an excellent sculpt and a surprisingly well-designed model that I thought would be way worse to put together than I was.
I too am waiting on wracks. The new kit is great, but if they don't come with FNP stock they'll get shot up before they can do anything.
I'm still cautiously optimistic, of course I was half-expecting Incubi to get creamed and be AP3 or something. The rumored change to racks could make a raider full of shardcarbine Trueborn a huge fire unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just noticed this on GW.com: Did they change the fluff for Hellions? I didn't think it said this before.
"Hellions are airborne killers. Feral Dark Eldar, they descend upon their prey in a flurry of hooked blades before hurtling away to safety. Hellions ride to war upon skyboards, single-pilot anti-gravity boards, and pump their systems full of combat drugs. They are crazed terror troops who swoop into the midst of the foe, screaming curses and severing limbs with their murderously sharp hellglaives."
I could be wrong and maybe it always said this, but as a fluff fan I'd love to see them move away from the "gangs of teenagers" bs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another change that could be interesting.
Urien Rakarth: "he carries a variety of strange weapons to war including a blade that can kill with the slightest scratch."
He didn't have a special blade in the old dex, just a flesh gauntlet.
lol...there's sharp, and then there's murderously sharp, apparently. Because if you're only wielding a sharp blade then you're not going to murder people as hard as one that's "murderously" sharp. Kinda makes me wonder if there's like a grading system in the Dark Eldar slave foundries where all this crap is produced, and they punish you if you make a sword that's not determined to be "murderously" sharp.
It's like after the Space Wolves character Murder McMurder equipped with Murder from the planet Murder (who was also feral and crazed and practically uncontrollable, because I guess everything in 40k has to be), they don't know any other way to describe things anymore to make them sound threatening or scary. Too bad GW doesn't make a Citadel branded dictionary or thesaurus that they can provide to their writers. Personally though I like to think Kirby is standing over their shoulders going "No, terrible, needs more murder or the kids won't like it."
If I were a crazy sword-wielding maniac I would inscribe the word "murder" on my blade so it would murder people even harder.
In all honesty though it's probably not new, but I hardly ever use their website anyway and never read the fluff bits on units either, since I assume it's all copy/paste, so I can't really say one way or the other. I just can't help but think there must be some other way to describe a blade than "murderously" sharp.
I got a chance to flip through the book for about half an hour last saturday. Dun ask me how my friend got his hands on it but he did.
I played a bit of beastpack and that's was the first thing I checked. Beastpack is max 12 model in the unit chosen from any mix of Beastmaster, Khymera, Flock or Fiend. I was mostly focused on Khymeras. It got Daemon and Fleet(?) instead of invul 4+ save. Its also T4 and 10 pts. Overall I think beastpack deathstar is dead Sad although the unit 'could' still be good as MSU.
On initial read, my impression was WTF!!!
On second read, there were some potential upsides - some of which were pointed out earlier. I will list the ones that jumped out at me and correct some of the rumors that did not seem right.
The PfP is pretty much what the rumors says. Turn 1 - nothing. Turn 2 - FnP 6+. Turn 3 - FnP 5+. Turn 4 - FNP (5+) and furious charge. Turn 5 - FNP,Furious Charge and fearless. Turn 6 - all of the prev plus rage.
Archon can take Arcane Gear. In the Arcane Gear section, it listed stuff like bikes, hellion skyboard, beastmaster skyboard and .... and spirit proble and the webway portal. I didn't see a limit on how many you can take so I assume the Archon can take as many as he wants. The key point here is it looks like Archon can be on a bike now/skyboard now and take spirit probe and webway portal. This opens up some new possibilities.
Spirit probe improves FNP by 1 max 4+. Equiping Archon with this will net us FnP 4+ potentially on turn 2. I saw a couple of entries where a character improves the bonus you get from the turn by 1. I think it was Urien and / or Haemy. So in Turn 1 we could get FnP 6+ and turn 2 we get FnP 5+ and improve by 1 from Spirit probe.
Next up was the webway portal. If my memory serves me right, it allows deep strike with unit/and vehicle with no scatter. I would imagine Archon is turning into the Deep Stike for loan much like the Space Wolves Drop Pods. Question would be who will the Archon bring?
One candidate is the Archon Court. It works much like beastpack. Max is 12. Can take any combos of Sslyth, Merdusaes etc. Merdusaes has template for the eye blast. Think it was S4 AP3? If you bring 12 of them.. well... now ... you could template a lot of infantry. Another candidate is 12 Sslyth WS4, S5, T5, 2W and 3 attacks. If they get 4+ FnP... could be quite good.
On webway portal, I don't remember if it is limited to DE only. I think it is not. So this opens up even more possibilities with Eldar.
Deepstriking Archon + Seer Council?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth? Masssive melee?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth + medusae? Masssive melee + a few flamers?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques + second archon tanking Shadow field with all of them at 4+ FnP (except Baharroth)?
I think the key here is you do not need a vehicle. So you could potentially bring in a huge ass unit of something right behind a ruins.
Really hoping the part about archons on bikes and boards is true!
And of course what better thing to go with all that new customizability than a $30 monopose character with no options, that can only go together in the one, boring, "standing at attention" pose with their legs stupidly close together.
Would one of you good folks be so kind as to help me avoid reading 43 pages and tell me what this will basically mean to some poor fool like me that has 2 old DE battleforces NIB that I haven't got around to painting yet?
Are they completely worthless now or do I just get to avoid these new, dumb looking looking elf faces?
Power form pain was fine for me
Night shields are not as good now
Wyches are still total drek against other infantry - you know the ones they are supposed to be better against - should have just copied the stats from Dark Elf Witch Elves. I bet they still have WS 4 FFS.
PFP didn't play a huge roll from me. It was a tricky lock/key to get more than two units with descent buffs. Those were almost always Incubi.
Night shields will take some getting used to.
Witches are awesome anti-vehicle because of the Haywire grenades. Amazingly so. Let the long range troops with tons of poison deal with the infantry.
PFP was fine - usually you had a couple of Horm to give it to the units you wanted PFP.
That's my issue - Wyches are rubbish in CC - so opposite of the fluff - awesome.................I don't want them chasing after vehicles, I want them slaughtering people in CCC - forging the narrative!
I got a chance to flip through the book for about half an hour last saturday. Dun ask me how my friend got his hands on it but he did.
I played a bit of beastpack and that's was the first thing I checked. Beastpack is max 12 model in the unit chosen from any mix of Beastmaster, Khymera, Flock or Fiend. I was mostly focused on Khymeras. It got Daemon and Fleet(?) instead of invul 4+ save. Its also T4 and 10 pts. Overall I think beastpack deathstar is dead Sad although the unit 'could' still be good as MSU.
On initial read, my impression was WTF!!!
On second read, there were some potential upsides - some of which were pointed out earlier. I will list the ones that jumped out at me and correct some of the rumors that did not seem right.
The PfP is pretty much what the rumors says. Turn 1 - nothing. Turn 2 - FnP 6+. Turn 3 - FnP 5+. Turn 4 - FNP (5+) and furious charge. Turn 5 - FNP,Furious Charge and fearless. Turn 6 - all of the prev plus rage.
Archon can take Arcane Gear. In the Arcane Gear section, it listed stuff like bikes, hellion skyboard, beastmaster skyboard and .... and spirit proble and the webway portal. I didn't see a limit on how many you can take so I assume the Archon can take as many as he wants. The key point here is it looks like Archon can be on a bike now/skyboard now and take spirit probe and webway portal. This opens up some new possibilities.
Spirit probe improves FNP by 1 max 4+. Equiping Archon with this will net us FnP 4+ potentially on turn 2. I saw a couple of entries where a character improves the bonus you get from the turn by 1. I think it was Urien and / or Haemy. So in Turn 1 we could get FnP 6+ and turn 2 we get FnP 5+ and improve by 1 from Spirit probe.
Next up was the webway portal. If my memory serves me right, it allows deep strike with unit/and vehicle with no scatter. I would imagine Archon is turning into the Deep Stike for loan much like the Space Wolves Drop Pods. Question would be who will the Archon bring?
One candidate is the Archon Court. It works much like beastpack. Max is 12. Can take any combos of Sslyth, Merdusaes etc. Merdusaes has template for the eye blast. Think it was S4 AP3? If you bring 12 of them.. well... now ... you could template a lot of infantry. Another candidate is 12 Sslyth WS4, S5, T5, 2W and 3 attacks. If they get 4+ FnP... could be quite good.
On webway portal, I don't remember if it is limited to DE only. I think it is not. So this opens up even more possibilities with Eldar.
Deepstriking Archon + Seer Council?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth? Masssive melee?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + Sslyth + medusae? Masssive melee + a few flamers?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques?
Deepstriking archon + Baharroth + 10 Groteques + second archon tanking Shadow field with all of them at 4+ FnP (except Baharroth)?
I think the key here is you do not need a vehicle. So you could potentially bring in a huge ass unit of something right behind a ruins.
Really hoping the part about archons on bikes and boards is true!
Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.
Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.
And yet Devistators come with one of each type of heavy weapon. Where do you think all those other weapons come from? I've never seen anyone ever field devistators with just the box contents.
Don't you get two of every weapon, except the MM, in the Devastators kit?
Anywho, I'm really excited if the Archon is allowed to ride a hoverboard or jetbike. I don't expect DE to be a top tier army but they will sure look good on any tier, and a converted archon is sure to be the centerpiece.
The cronos/talos in units thing is kinda cool but I'm not super happy about this game turning into Monstrous Creature-hammer 40K (MC Hammer 40K ).
Really excited about the Skyboard/Jetbike for the Archon rumour! Can't wait to swoop in across the board with T4 and Shadowfield to ruin someone's day in CC before they can even retaliate... if that will be true.
Is there a reason to take a skyboard over a jetbike? The farseer and autarch can take jetbikes for 15pts so I doubt the DE jetbike will be more. The jetbike does all the same things as the skyboard and more. Even in a unit of hellions I would rather have a jetbike archon for those last minute get aways.
T4 will be amazing on the Archon, bumping instant death up from a 6 to a 8 really will make a difference with all the s7 running around. Unless my archon is in a vehicle he is always going to be on a bike, no reason not to put him on one.
Also with the Archon on a jetbike I am not upset that the Baron is gone. Sure he has some nifty tricks but an archon will just do his job better.
lambsandlions wrote: Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.
Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm currently building a dark eldar/eldar corsairs force and I have 10 wraithguard just because I like the look of them so much. I was originally drawn to the corsairs because of the Prince's "let anything deepstrike" ability, but the webway portal is just ABSURDLY better if it's true. Might have to rework it to be just plain ole dark eldar/eldar.
Do Sslyth GET power from pain, though? I mean technically they're not dark eldar, I wonder if they're going to get the rule or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah nevermind. Sslyth seem to just have straight up feel no pain. Yea...that'd be quite nasty.
Urien Rakarth: "he carries a variety of strange weapons to war including a blade that can kill with the slightest scratch."
He didn't have a special blade in the old dex, just a flesh gauntlet.
He had that same fluff in the old book though.
Apparently he just didn't think a 'blade that could kill with the slightest scratch' was worth using on the battlefield. Well, that or the designers couldn't be bothered adding rules for it; for fear that doing so might make him reasonable priced.
lambsandlions wrote: Medusa's eyeshot at s4 ap3 seems too good to be true. Put an Archon on a bike and wwp and take 6 medusa and 6 sslyth. You suddenly have a t5 fnp 4+ unit that is deepstriking with no scatter and laying down 6 s4 ap3 templates. You can assume that a template will hit a minimum of 3 models (but in reality 5 plus would be common) Anything without sv2 will be vaporized. Then you can just go on a warpath. Nothing can really charge the 6 templates and t5 fnp 4+ multiwounds is a hard nut to crack from range. Just be sure to let the medusa die first so you don't drop down to t3.
Really the wwp just sounds busted as no scatter deepstriking is so strong. The medusa sound fun but think about wraithgaurd with d-scyths, deepstriking down onto a unit, just vaporizing everything. Just watch out for early warning override from tau.
That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm currently building a dark eldar/eldar corsairs force and I have 10 wraithguard just because I like the look of them so much. I was originally drawn to the corsairs because of the Prince's "let anything deepstrike" ability, but the webway portal is just ABSURDLY better if it's true. Might have to rework it to be just plain ole dark eldar/eldar.
Do Sslyth GET power from pain, though? I mean technically they're not dark eldar, I wonder if they're going to get the rule or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah nevermind. Sslyth seem to just have straight up feel no pain. Yea...that'd be quite nasty.
Same here Void Dragons and Kabal of the Broken Sigil.
Kirasu wrote: You think stealth is better than reduced range and flickerfield? That was a great combo before.. now raiders just get +1 to cover saves? Totally inferior to what was possible before, especially considering 7ths change to jink.
Nightshields were great at -6" range. +1 cover save is kind of a joke. So much ignores cover out there, vehicles with flickerfields already have a save(and you can only make 1 save), and jinking is not good for ravagers or flyers
many of the sources of these rumors have been grossly wrong in the past on other codexes with around 1 out of 10 of the things they said being accurate.
as the last rumors posted here included "archons can take bikes, skyboards" and someone already claimed those are wrong, it does not bode well that any of these rumors are true.
I think the saddest part of this ordeal is this will be the first 7th codex to not include a LoW option, which ultimately makes the codex feel incomplete already to me.
That many people are posting combos of "you can do this and this if you take this dark eldar guy with this eldar guy" is highly reminiscent of the last codex wherein most dark eldar players just became eldar players taking certain dark eldar units to unlock some powerful combo for the eldar and the dark eldar remained a little played mid to low tier army. Which would be highly unfortunate if the update to the dark eldar codex left them literally the same as before in playability but just a shift in which units where taken to unlock powerful combos with eldar.
So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one, Venom/Raiders rush forward. You're going flat out with most of them except the blasterborn ones, so who cares if you jink?
Turn two, disembark and assault, venoms fade back to safer positions (or take Maelstrom objectives) and provide ~70 poison attacks as cover fire. Your webway portal units arrive in cover and attack. Stuff that can shoot Venoms is tied up in CC.
Turn three, you've probably won a lot of assaults, have some units consolidated into cover, and are high army-wide 5+ FNP. Whatever ghastly unit you pulled out of the WWP is now assaulting too and has FNP.
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.
blaktoof wrote: That many people are posting combos of "you can do this and this if you take this dark eldar guy with this eldar guy" is highly reminiscent of the last codex wherein most dark eldar players just became eldar players taking certain dark eldar units to unlock some powerful combo for the eldar and the dark eldar remained a little played mid to low tier army. Which would be highly unfortunate if the update to the dark eldar codex left them literally the same as before in playability but just a shift in which units where taken to unlock powerful combos with eldar.
Nothing better that using a couple of units with the added benefit of an additional $50 codex! Your army isn't proper if you're not spending upwards of $120 (gotta get those dataslates in) on army books!
mercury14 wrote: So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.
OR...
Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.
mercury14 wrote: So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.
OR...
Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.
So the measuring stick is now whether or not a list can beat lists Wave Serpent lists? Wave Serpents are overpowered, nobody is suggesting otherwise. The problem there is Wave Serpents having unbalanced rules, not other codexes.
Besides, Venoms died to wave serpents before pretty much the same in the old dex. 5++ never saved you when a Serpent put four pens in your lap
True, but we had tools that could deal with waveserpents in the old codex.
Wyches with haywire, Beastpacks that could catch, surround and destroy the serpent and kill everything inside it in one go.
Eldar players had to be very careful with placement, distance to our units and target priority.
Now what do they have to worry about? A Ravager dropping in behind them, where they will happily "jink" away at a 3+?
Wyches? Wych, please! The only thing scary about wyches this dex is the thought of them charging a freaking rhino with one haywire grenade, or a marine unit that they will bounce off of!
Believe it or not, i am not all Doom and Gloom. i am hopeful that when i get my hands on and look through the dex, that My fear of facing 3 knights in a lance formation at a tournament is not an auto loss, but the rumors are pointing that way.
I am not saying we need to be crying in our soup here, but I think it is just as bad to yell "Everything will come up roses!" as it is to yell "Cheap DE army for sale!"
The more I read news and rumors posts, the more I think that my area of the world is the only one where not everyone runs an uber hard wave serpent list.
In fact, no one here runs a wave serpent list. Haven't seen one. Maybe they do what they're supposed and only break out the competitive lists for competitive games.
Edit: that wasn't aimed specifically at you Anglacon. The recurring theme I'm seeing in pretty much all N&R threads is comparing new books to Eldar serpent spam, which pretty much all new books will loose. Just like talking religion and politics at Thanksgiving, you're just asking for people to be upset!
Im pretty excited about the DE update. So far I'm hearing some pretty nice things that can be done with them. I'm looking forward to getting the army up and running. LOTS of venoms, raiders, ravagers and Reavers! Huzzah! I will disclaimer this by saying that I've got no DE experience to go off of. I'm coming in brand new, so if this book sucks I won't be able to recall the good ol days when it didn't.
Eldar have always been a poor matchup for Dark Eldar, even in 5th edition. High-volume S6 is the bane of DE even without any Wave Serpents on the table.
I play Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Corsairs and I've never lost a match to Dark Eldar. I'm probably like 12-0 against them with more than half my matches being massacres... And many of those matches were with the old Eldar codex...
When I play Dark Eldar I generally lose to Eldar unless the player is new or is using certain lists such as Wraithguard/knights/lords.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ADDENDUM: Are we thinking the codex is being released Friday or next friday?
My local meta is mostly Chaos Daemons, CSM and all kinds of SM. Orks, Necrons and Tyranids show up as well. In short, I'm not really bothered by the "Oh noes, Wave Serpents are gonna destroy my army!" predicament.
Regardless, we should be getting new WD info pretty soon, right?
Serpent spam is a hard counter to Dark Eldar, just as Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Tyranid Godzilla lists.
I understand why everyone want to pair codexes against Eldar since they're the big dogs, but the rumored changes (even if underwhelming) balance Dark Eldar out and make them competitive again.
And no, when I say "competitive" that doesn't mean "vying for top table at GTs," it just means "They'll hold their own."
Auswin wrote: Serpent spam is a hard counter to Dark Eldar, just as Dark Eldar are a hard counter to Tyranid Godzilla lists.
I understand why everyone want to pair codexes against Eldar since they're the big dogs, but the rumored changes (even if underwhelming) balance Dark Eldar out and make them competitive again.
And no, when I say "competitive" that doesn't mean "vying for top table at GTs," it just means "They'll hold their own."
FWIW I took 6th out of 44 armies with Dark Eldar at a regional tournament in Ohio this year, going 3W, 0L, 2D. I tabled my opponent in all three of my wins (Flying Tzeench Demons, Orks, Tau), and tied GK (should have won), and Eldar with a Knight.
Little bird has passed the following info.
There will be no pics, even though I received some, since GW does not want me to their stuff, before the release date... oh well.
Eldar Archon model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł
Eldar Succubus model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł
mercury14 wrote: Fiddy dollah supplement again. Here's to hoping for at least four pages of rules.
Don't be silly...it will be 200 pages. 2 of which will be rules, the rest pretty pictures of studio painted models. All in garish and stark contrasting colors, naturally.
Well, I just pre-ordered the codex from Frontline Gaming. I've got a huge army and DE have always kinda been a favorite so I'm actually going to buy a codex this time around
mercury14 wrote: So Venoms can jink at a 3+, or 2+ when night fighting. Not bad, not bad at all. Yes there are counters (as there should be). And Venoms can be so numerous that even if a couple go down, you're still going to be able to carry out your attack plan.
Turn one,
Turn two,
Turn three,
Turn four, if you were fairly successful in the previous two turns you're probably mopping up survivors at this point.
OR...
Turn 1: 4 waveserpents shoot 4 of your raiders from the sky, with no cover-save shots. Your go, you boost up 3 venoms and hope for the best.
Turn 2: You are assaulted by a wraithknight, which blows up a venom and the serpents take out your other two venoms. Many die in explosions. Your turn: you roll for your reserve unit of grots and arcon.. they do not arrive.
Turn 3: You are tabled but for a unit of 4 fleeing warriors. It looks grim! Your go: Your unit still does not arrive.
Turn 4: You throw in the towel, and curse GW for boning your once favorite codex.
This may happen.
However I gonna play Eldar with DE allies. This should work quite well.
Colpicklejar wrote: Do we know for sure that wyches lost haywire? I haven't seen that anywhere...
We know very little for sure, but there are rumors that only the Hekatrix can get haywire grenades.
Personally I'm okay with that because from a fluff perspective Wyches shouldn't be average in CC but just about the best units in 40k at killing vehicles. But wyches should gain something then, either improved CC ability, something to help them survive, a point reduction, etc.
It appears that wyches will probably get a little bit better in CC for their points due to not having to buy 2-pt grenades for every model, Power From Pain being more useful and maybe combat drugs getting a slight buff. If upgrading to a Hekatrix becomes a wise choice then they'll be running around with a character to soak challenges, getting an extra attack, etc. And the cost of the hekatrix w/haywire should be roughly canceled out by the savings from not buying all the haywire...
100 points should get you 5x Wyches in a Venom or Raider, two objective secured units. That's not bad.
Moopy wrote: I don't remember ever being dealt grievous wounds from a round of overwatch. Maybe 1-2 models tops, and that's hardly worth worrying about.
it isnt the 1-2 models. It's the 1-2 models that die and prevent you from completing your charge
Colpicklejar wrote: Do we know for sure that wyches lost haywire? I haven't seen that anywhere...
Personally I'm okay with that because from a fluff perspective Wyches shouldn't be average in CC but just about the best units in 40k at killing vehicles. But wyches should gain something then, either improved CC ability, something to help them survive, a point reduction, etc.
It appears that wyches will probably get a little bit better in CC for their points due to not having to buy 2-pt grenades for every model, Power From Pain being more useful and maybe combat drugs getting a slight buff. If upgrading to a Hekatrix becomes a wise choice then they'll be running around with a character to soak challenges, getting an extra attack, etc. And the cost of the hekatrix w/haywire should be roughly canceled out by the savings from not buying all the haywire...
100 points should get you 5x Wyches in a Venom or Raider, two objective secured units. That's not bad.
100 points for 5x Wyches in a venom is somewhat bad if the Wyches cannot take on vehicles or infantry and die like nothing else now with the rules for explosions and templates.
Improved combat ability might be one thing, but who knows how they would do that.
pretre wrote: Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.
Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes
Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.
Tau have fallen out of favor in my local meta big time. In yesterday's tournament there was only one Tau guy and he got smacked around.
I'm just saying that if you think deep striking raiders is a good thing, you haven't landed in front of a unit of Broadsides with EWO and hi yield missile systems... It's not fun.
mercury14 wrote: If you're facing that kind of list don't deep strike stuff.
Which is my point. It doesn't do to get excited about one facet of the new *rumored* rules when it's so easy to invalidate them. Hopefully we'll have some leaks from the codex soon.
The new power from pain rules do make it much easier for wyches to tarpit regular shooting and low level CC infantry. A 6 or 5+ FNP and a 4++ will give them quite a lot of protection from injury against the enemy (including marines - anyone who thinks wyches can't tie down marines isn't running the math or has never had it happen on the table).
For me, putting Dark Eldar units in reserve has always been a questionable choice. As a DE player, you need to be killing stuff turn 1-2 and not fuddering around off the map. That doesn't keep your army safe - that's just an illusion. And DE don't get reserve modifiers without allies. That's why their scourges and flyers are very average IMO.
The much better option is to line up 7-10 transports and rush your opponent, backed up by lance fire against vehicles. Your opponent is going to shoot something but since all your transports and their riders are rather low-cost it's not a huge deal. Our defense is a lack of high-cost units to kill and saturating opponents with jinking targets.
The new WWP looks like it has potential though.
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PhillyT wrote: The new power from pain rules do make it much easier for wyches to tarpit regular shooting and low level CC infantry. A 6 or 5+ FNP and a 4++ will give them quite a lot of protection from injury against the enemy (including marines - anyone who thinks wyches can't tie down marines isn't running the math or has never had it happen on the table).
Exactly. And if it becomes standard to run a Hekatrix with like a power sword that helps too.
I'll often disembark a squad of Wyches in front of SM units, even assault marines. And then on the shooting phase whittle away their numbers with a Venom to stack the odds in my favor.
pretre wrote: Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.
Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes
Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.
I play them often enough that if I had such a unit I would make sure i deep struck out of LOS from anything with interceptor or if the table didnt allow for lots of LOS blocking terrain or if I thought that they had too much interceptor I would deploy differently and perhaps choose not to DS, or DS with something else.
pretre wrote: Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.
Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes
Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.
Tau have fallen out of favor in my local meta big time. In yesterday's tournament there was only one Tau guy and he got smacked around.
I'm just saying that if you think deep striking raiders is a good thing, you haven't landed in front of a unit of Broadsides with EWO and hi yield missile systems... It's not fun.
The webway portal doesn't require a raider. It just gives the unit a no-scatter deep strike.
pretre wrote: Precision deep strike for any unit is kind if a big deal.
Huge, Im already thinking of how to convert up some DEldary Wraithgaurd with Dsythes
Do none of you play against Tau at all? Weird.
Tau have fallen out of favor in my local meta big time. In yesterday's tournament there was only one Tau guy and he got smacked around.
I'm just saying that if you think deep striking raiders is a good thing, you haven't landed in front of a unit of Broadsides with EWO and hi yield missile systems... It's not fun.
The webway portal doesn't require a raider. It just gives the unit a no-scatter deep strike.
Somebody has to carry it and he has to get in a positions where it will actually be useful without getting squished, right?
Has it been confirmed that Raiders can in fact be taken as fast attack because if so that's fething broken. I keep seeing it mentioned over and over again.
Hollismason wrote: Has it been confirmed that Raiders can in fact be taken as fast attack because if so that's fething broken. I keep seeing it mentioned over and over again.
mercury14 wrote: Trueborn appear to be only 11 pts now if they're Kabalite +3. They can take haywire in the current codex, wonder if they'll keep that option.
increased surviability over wyches. 5+ instead of 6+ save!
mercury14 wrote: Trueborn appear to be only 11 pts now if they're Kabalite +3. They can take haywire in the current codex, wonder if they'll keep that option.
increased surviability over wyches. 5+ instead of 6+ save!
worth the 1ppm
Increased vehicle explosion survivability. And they can hurt things with shooting. A blaster and a haywire grenade on assault is no joke.
mercury14 wrote: For me, putting Dark Eldar units in reserve has always been a questionable choice. As a DE player, you need to be killing stuff turn 1-2 and not fuddering around off the map.
I'm more concerned about my army arriving piecemeal. It seems like you're making it a little easy for your opponent to concentrate fire on what's on the table.
I'm really starting to like the idea of a WWP harlequin army. Run a Harlequin Wraithknight and then load up on venoms and raiders loaded to the gills with Harlequins.
Hollismason wrote: This is silly but I just realized, can't you stick a Guardian Squad in a Raider or Vyper and fire the Weapon Support Battery?
what is the bulky/very bulky/extremely bulky on the support battery. Also what is the min squad size on guardians. They might not be enough space for all of them.
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godswildcard wrote: I'm really starting to like the idea of a WWP harlequin army. Run a Harlequin Wraithknight and then load up on venoms and raiders loaded to the gills with Harlequins.
godswildcard wrote: I'm really starting to like the idea of a WWP harlequin army. Run a Harlequin Wraithknight and then load up on venoms and raiders loaded to the gills with Harlequins.
as a LONNNNNG time Dark Eldar player I don't see how everyone is crying about this. The potential to get a 2+ Jink on turn one with venoms and raiders????
If you want to survive with Dark Eldar you need to run heavy target saturation. Venom spam is as fluffy as it is productive. The fact that they now score, and they don't explode makes them insane. A small points increase is more than fair.
Where is everyone getting this fact that wyches can't take haywire? That would suck, but I'd just swap over to trueborn from the sound of the rumours.
Web Way portals sound like theyll be insane. I'm hoping theres a good balance of being able to take 2-3 in an army. I like the Talos in a group idea... let you swap out an injured model so someone else can soak wounds. hopefully they can somehow use a portal or move a bit quicker..
I REALLLLLLY hope the earlier mandrake rumours were true. start with baleblast and come with shrouded/stealth? so cool.
but seriously, let's stop crying about wave serpents. theyre brutal, super effective, under costed and it's douchey when people bring a whole bunch of them. you just have to learn to deal with it. but like other people have said; how does a tyranid player feel when they see 9 venoms on the field?
I don't know why everyone is so worried about 3 knights..... get some haywire. lots and lots of it. im sure thatll still be possible somewhere. you cant look at ravagers as the be all/end all they used to be.
raoiley wrote: as a LONNNNNG time Dark Eldar player I don't see how everyone is crying about this. The potential to get a 2+ Jink on turn one with venoms and raiders????
If you want to survive with Dark Eldar you need to run heavy target saturation. Venom spam is as fluffy as it is productive. The fact that they now score, and they don't explode makes them insane. A small points increase is more than fair.
Where is everyone getting this fact that wyches can't take haywire? That would suck, but I'd just swap over to trueborn from the sound of the rumours.
Web Way portals sound like theyll be insane. I'm hoping theres a good balance of being able to take 2-3 in an army. I like the Talos in a group idea... let you swap out an injured model so someone else can soak wounds. hopefully they can somehow use a portal or move a bit quicker..
I REALLLLLLY hope the earlier mandrake rumours were true. start with baleblast and come with shrouded/stealth? so cool.
but seriously, let's stop crying about wave serpents. theyre brutal, super effective, under costed and it's douchey when people bring a whole bunch of them. you just have to learn to deal with it. but like other people have said; how does a tyranid player feel when they see 9 venoms on the field?
I don't know why everyone is so worried about 3 knights..... get some haywire. lots and lots of it. im sure thatll still be possible somewhere. you cant look at ravagers as the be all/end all they used to be.
Aha, DE are the bane of my Nids, I literally have to spam FMC's to win against DE
All these rumours and confirmed rules make me want to collect DE alongside my Nids, Orks and Crons I've always thought Dark Lances weren't that good, you still need a 4 at worst to do damage, why take a Raider for one shot that glances on 4 when you could take ten or so Haywire Grenades that glance on 2+?
Raiders in Fast Attack would make Howling Banshee's very happy IMO
raoiley wrote: as a LONNNNNG time Dark Eldar player I don't see how everyone is crying about this. The potential to get a 2+ Jink on turn one with venoms and raiders????
Wow, why is it so hard for people to understand that stealth doesn't stack. Night shields are rumored to grant stealth. Night fight grants stealth. That means night fight is pointless if you bought night shields. 3+ cover is the best it will get if the rumors in fact pan out.
Sorry but this is like the 10th time it has been mentioned incorrectly.
FA formation seems like an auto take to be honest. Obsec never was worth as much to me with mey DE as with my marines due to lack of durability.
having double slots in our most crowded section? Yes please.
Scourge have to go down to at least 17ppm, but honestly could be even 14 or 15ppm. If they can take 4 upgrades at 5 rather then needing 10, these guys with haywire blasters are an auto take IMO. At least two units.
Next is a clawed fiend beastpack. Again, expecting a big point drop, with 12 models max but in any config thee are the best choice now IMO. So easy to achieve majority T5 and will control midfield well as a counter assault element.
Next is Razorwings for obvious reasons.
I think bikes went from my second choice to second to last sadly right behind hellions in dead last. both being too delicate with subpar offense that is done better be too many other entries in the book. Great models that will be painted with care and dedicated to gawking at on my shelf
Automatically Appended Next Post: Splinters don't have shred, shredders do...
Splinter cannons apparently have moved to being 4/6 Salvo w/ Shred
When was shred rumored? All I have seen was salvo 4/6
The only weapon with shred was the shredder, which makes sense when you think about it
It was in that BOLS rumour thing I think.
Bah, BoLS is just an echo chamber for wishlisting. I hope its true but I think it's being confused with the shredder sadly.
EDIT: after some thought I can say there is no way SC's have shred. It would be so OP its stupid. A venom puts 4 wounds on anything now, with shred that bumps up to 6 wounds....ON ANY T value, not gonna happen.
mercury14 wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned but Kabalites went down a point to 8 pts. If you look on the Dracon edition photo you can see it on there.
If true, I hope wyches also dropped in points- preferably to 8 or 7 PPM.
mercury14 wrote: Not sure if it's been mentioned but Kabalites went down a point to 8 pts. If you look on the Dracon edition photo you can see it on there.
If true, I hope wyches also dropped in points- preferably to 8 or 7 PPM.
I hope so too, but knowing GW they went up 2 PPM to make up for their added utility as a CC unit.
raoiley wrote: as a LONNNNNG time Dark Eldar player I don't see how everyone is crying about this. The potential to get a 2+ Jink on turn one with venoms and raiders????
Wow, why is it so hard for people to understand that stealth doesn't stack. Night shields are rumored to grant stealth. Night fight grants stealth. That means night fight is pointless if you bought night shields. 3+ cover is the best it will get if the rumors in fact pan out.
Sorry but this is like the 10th time it has been mentioned incorrectly.
yup, the new nightshields sound pretty worthless
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Red Corsair wrote: FA formation seems like an auto take to be honest. Obsec never was worth as much to me with mey DE as with my marines due to lack of durability.
having double slots in our most crowded section? Yes please.
Scourge have to go down to at least 17ppm, but honestly could be even 14 or 15ppm. If they can take 4 upgrades at 5 rather then needing 10, these guys with haywire blasters are an auto take IMO. At least two units.
Next is a clawed fiend beastpack. Again, expecting a big point drop, with 12 models max but in any config thee are the best choice now IMO. So easy to achieve majority T5 and will control midfield well as a counter assault element.
Next is Razorwings for obvious reasons.
I think bikes went from my second choice to second to last sadly right behind hellions in dead last. both being too delicate with subpar offense that is done better be too many other entries in the book. Great models that will be painted with care and dedicated to gawking at on my shelf
How is FA the most crowded section for DE?
beastpacks are nerfed, and without baron, might not even be viable
reavers got nerfed
Razorwings are ok, and might be taken now that they are FA instead of HS. Depends on the unit entry. They might lose their free missiles.
You say scourges are good, but apparently only if they get a point drop greater than 25%
I dont think we can determine what is crowded before seeing the codex, but FA certainly wasnt the crowded section in the old codex.
Little bird has passed the following info.
There will be no pics, even though I received some, since GW does not want me to their stuff, before the release date... oh well.
Eldar Archon model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł
Eldar Succubus model
£14, €18, USD23, AU25 // 70zł
To be fair I was discussing in the context of the rumors. Without making any assumptions the conversation runs dry a tad quickly.
I think it is silly to not expect scourge to drop 25% actually. Which makes them solid. It was their incredibly high cost before that made them a poor option, and if in fact they can as the rumors hinted, take 4 haywire blasters thats crazy good.
Baron can be easily replaced with barahoth, who granted is more expensive but is also way better, so again it isn't like we can't have hit and run where we need it.
Beastpacks didn't get nerfed IMO they just sound different and I happen to own 25 khymera by the way. If you can now take more clawed fiends then packmasters then they are basically the DE version of chaos spawn. Hardly something to scoff at. Heck 2-3 fiends and a packmaster make an awesome and fast MSU killer.
As far as the razorwing, I never thought it was a bad option but it always lost out in the heavy slot, with it being a FA option and the formation giving us 6 I see no reason not to take one. Assuming it got worse is up to you, but come on every option sucks if we assume they all went up in points and lost abilities. Sure some will but lets be at least a little bright shall we.
Having heard of the rumoured move of razorwing to fast attack, with Voidraven staying in heavy support, and some double fast attack force org (???) I can only guess that GW intend for DE to be the new flyer spam army.
It'd look cool on the table top, gak loads of venoms, razors and voids, though not sure what I think to a nerf of multiple units just in a hope to shift bigger more expensive box sets, if indeed this is all true and my assumption about GW's intent is correct.
kitch102 wrote: Having heard of the rumoured move of razorwing to fast attack, with Voidraven staying in heavy support, and some double fast attack force org (???) I can only guess that GW intend for DE to be the new flyer spam army.
It'd look cool on the table top, gak loads of venoms, razors and voids, though not sure what I think to a nerf of multiple units just in a hope to shift bigger more expensive box sets, if indeed this is all true and my assumption about GW's intent is correct.
Although I won't disagree with what you said about GW's intent, I think it's worth remembering that the DE flyers are AV10, become nearly impotent when jinking and doesn't have the ability to fire Tesla like weapons that doesn't really care about Snap Shots. Furthermore, the crossaints and (the prenerf) vendettas had troops that could drop down and contest objectives, not to mention that DE flyers are unable to hover, thus never being able to score.
Yeah, because no army that can currently take Stealth on their skimmers ever takes it, right?
Such a silly comment. 3+ Jink sucks man. Great take.
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EDIT: after some thought I can say there is no way SC's have shred. It would be so OP its stupid. A venom puts 4 wounds on anything now, with shred that bumps up to 6 wounds....ON ANY T value, not gonna happen.
Keep in mind they have also been rumored to be nerfed to Salvo and to have gone up in price. It's definitely possible they were given Shred to compensate for these changes. We shall see.
kitch102 wrote: Having heard of the rumoured move of razorwing to fast attack, with Voidraven staying in heavy support, and some double fast attack force org (???) I can only guess that GW intend for DE to be the new flyer spam army.
It'd look cool on the table top, gak loads of venoms, razors and voids, though not sure what I think to a nerf of multiple units just in a hope to shift bigger more expensive box sets, if indeed this is all true and my assumption about GW's intent is correct.
Although I won't disagree with what you said about GW's intent, I think it's worth remembering that the DE flyers are AV10, become nearly impotent when jinking and doesn't have the ability to fire Tesla like weapons that doesn't really care about Snap Shots. Furthermore, the crossaints and (the prenerf) vendettas had troops that could drop down and contest objectives, not to mention that DE flyers are unable to hover, thus never being able to score.
Fair point, though how many of those can throw out the pie plates like Razor Wings (in the current rule set at least)? Imagine, what, 6 (?) Razor Wings, all loaded up with necro toxin missiles, and then the Void Raven with it's big cock-bomb, laying down pie plates left right and centre on turn 2 or even turn 1 if that snippet from WD was true (some trait or formation iirc?).
That's a gak lot of wounds on bunched up armies; Tau, Nids, Orks are the obvious candidates. I'm not saying that these will beat face by themselves, but imagine these guys removing most if not all fire warriors from the table. Suddenly you'd just be facing the big guns. Sure, they're more painful, but when you're armour and vehicles are made from papier maché, reducing the number of incoming shots is the more effective tactic over removing the bigger, more damaging shots from the table top. This leaves your boats to mop up the left overs, with the flyers theoretically still around to aid with the mop up.
kitch102 wrote: laying down pie plates left right and centre on turn 2 or even turn 1 if that snippet from WD was true (some trait or formation iirc?).
There was a sidebar in the WD batrep that said the 'fliers on the table turn 1' thing was a homebrew rule for their special scenario.
I don't mind the clenched buttocks so much but the crossed arms aren't doing anything for me. Otherwise the model looks good, I really do like to see more skin cloaks.
Thank Slaanesh that kitbashing a better one is going to be so easy.
Very much my thought as well. Highly agile army that uses speed and flexibility, let's design a commander who stands straight up like he has a spear lodged up his butt........well I guess they at least got the Slaanesh part right
I don't like the new Archon's design that much.
He's too static and bunched up. He should be hamming it up, like doing a sort of "poor Yorick" thing with a severed head.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't like the new Archon's design that much.
He's too static and bunched up. He should be hamming it up, like doing a sort of "poor Yorick" thing with a severed head.
Indeed the Archon looks pretty strange. I'm not interested in this model.
Really? I don't see what's fine about that pose (especially in light of almost every other model in the range), ecause I would prefer an action pose on all my little wardollies that supposed to be running forward and killing other little wardollies.
Extreaminatus wrote: Really? I don't see what's fine about that pose (especially in light of almost every other model in the range), ecause I would prefer an action pose on all my little wardollies that supposed to be running forward and killing other little wardollies.
People are just so wrong about so much.
It goes like this:
(A) Your opinion of this GW/40k product favorable -> Continue to post
(B) Your opinion of a GW/40k product is not entirely favorable -> Your opinion is wrong, go back to option A
People are entitled to their opinions Extreaminatus. There's nothing wrong with this model a few snips here and there wouldn't fix. Bad posing though- I'd have it in a more "come get some, puny mon-keigh" kinda pose
While I am a big fan of the whole DE line (it is probably my favorite truth be told), I think this new Archon falls rather flat. He has this sort-of...anime-esque vibe, like he's standing on this rock looking down, all moody. And all around him are soldiers who are too terrified to just lift their guns and fire (although when they do, the Archon magically darts around so fast he can be hit by bullets ).
I would have much preferred him in an action pose, since action fits the DE concept. Standing at attention is better for Imperial Guard or artillery troops, that aren't moving through a battlefield. I suppose the Archon would look fine in a diorama of the Dark City though.
angelofvengeance wrote: People are entitled to their opinions Extreaminatus. There's nothing wrong with this model a few snips here and there wouldn't fix. Bad posing though- I'd have it in a more "come get some, puny mon-keigh" kinda pose
I know peeps get their own opinions.
I should have quoted the "If he was in an action pose, people would whimper about that," line before saying people are wrong. Because whining about actions poses in DE models is wrong.
Personally, I'm okay with the stance. It makes his look like calculating, like he's watching over the battlefield without any desire to move a muscle until it's necessary.
The arm pose is atrocious though. If you're going to bunch up the legs then the arms need to be wider, or vice versa.
All open leads to those static hilarious 2nd ed sculpts, but this is way too closed. Hopefully the one shown in the painting guide was an example of the kit, not a big conversion. I just want the sword down or out. I can leave the pistol across his chest.
EYEofTERROR wrote: It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time.
Templars. At least you're not folded into Eldar.
Ah the classic I got raped way harder dude, so your raping shouldn't matter to you argument. Was waiting for that one to rear its head.
If someone claims this to be the worst Codex update and I disagree I'm going to say so. Nowhere did I say whether this update is going to be good or not, I only pointed out that I felt "the worst" was hyperbole. And I sure as gak haven't been waiting for a strawman...
Auswin wrote: Personally, I'm okay with the stance. It makes his look like calculating, like he's watching over the battlefield without any desire to move a muscle until it's necessary.
The arm pose is atrocious though. If you're going to bunch up the legs then the arms need to be wider, or vice versa.
All open leads to those static hilarious 2nd ed sculpts, but this is way too closed. Hopefully the one shown in the painting guide was an example of the kit, not a big conversion. I just want the sword down or out. I can leave the pistol across his chest.
It's the legs that throw me off. If the legs were even posed like the Incubus in your avatar pic, it would be fine.
I would have much preferred him in an action pose, since action fits the DE concept. Standing at attention is better for Imperial Guard or artillery troops, that aren't moving through a battlefield. I suppose the Archon would look fine in a diorama of the Dark City though.
Do you know what else fits the "Dark Eldar concept"?
Overwhelming arrogance, to the point where you just stand there on the battlefield with a mocking look. Secure in the knowledge that you have a belt-mounted force field generator that can stop tank cannons.
I would have much preferred him in an action pose, since action fits the DE concept. Standing at attention is better for Imperial Guard or artillery troops, that aren't moving through a battlefield. I suppose the Archon would look fine in a diorama of the Dark City though.
Do you know what else fits the "Dark Eldar concept"?
Overwhelming arrogance, to the point where you just stand there on the battlefield with a mocking look. Secure in the knowledge that you have a belt-mounted force field generator that can stop tank cannons.
This is why I kinda like it. The arm pose I'd definitely change but for the rest of the model, it does look like they were going for that alien poise right before he bursts into a flurry of motion.
The only way I can explain the arms is that this was originally part of the Voidraven kit and it's meant to represent the Archon being dropped out of the front cockpit, performing a HALO maneuver with some sort of anti-inertia belt
Yeah, because no army that can currently take Stealth on their skimmers ever takes it, right?
Such a silly comment. 3+ Jink sucks man. Great take.
Other armies that can get stealth on their skimmers either have lots of twinlinked weaponry, psykic powers to increase their chance to hit, or marker lights to raise their snap shot chance.
Also DE vehicles are cheap, paying 10 points more on a 60 point model that is going to die quickly anyway it a worse investment than a holofield on a serpant that is never going to die.
Also how useful is stealth on an army that wants to fight at night anyway and will get stealth first turn anyway.
Some DE vehicles have built in 5++ saves. adding upgrades to jink on 3+ instead of 4+ is less useful if you are probably not going to jink anyway and use the 5++.
The old nightshields were great, as they gave you the option of not being hit at all by many weapons. DE are a medium ranged army and need to keep close range stuff away from them.
I think if you expected Dark Eldar to get bumped into top tier like Eldar you're feeling a little sore about the alleged codex (which we still have no real idea about), but I never thought that would happen.
I just hoped for a few nice bumps and for the DE to be brought into 7th.
Based on the rumors I think it's mostly good.
+ Nightshields are better. A 3+ jink is legit, regardless of how much ignored cover there is now.
+ Point drop for Kabalites is nice
+ Racks working on all splinter weapons could make Shardcarbine trueborn useful.
+ Talos in packs of 3 is much better
+ Mandrakes have a place now, instead of a counts as.
+ PFP is better and more reliable.
+ Combat drugs are better suited for 7th.
+ The WWP is vastly better than the current iteration.
+ The Clonefield is much better
+ Even if it's slightly lackluster, the Voidraven has a place rather than being a very expensive Razorwing without much going for it.
- Reavers are pretty terrible now
- Huskblade heading to AP3 sucks, but could be mitigated with strength buffs (resulting in more wounds)
- Liquifiers are objectively worse.
- Wracks could be pointless in a non-coven list, we'll need to see if they get even a mediocre save.
- Less weapons on wyches hurts them, but could be mitigated if dodge applies to overwatch.
I'm sure there's more I'm missing on both sides, but overall I'm pretty happy.
I think if you expected Dark Eldar to get bumped into top tier like Eldar you're feeling a little sore about the alleged codex (which we still have no real idea about), but I never thought that would happen.
I just hoped for a few nice bumps and for the DE to be brought into 7th.
Based on the rumors I think it's mostly good.
+ Nightshields are better. A 3+ jink is legit, regardless of how much ignored cover there is now.
+ Point drop for Kabalites is nice
+ Racks working on all splinter weapons could make Shardcarbine trueborn useful.
+ Talos in packs of 3 is much better
+ Mandrakes have a place now, instead of a counts as.
+ PFP is better and more reliable.
+ Combat drugs are better suited for 7th.
+ The WWP is vastly better than the current iteration.
+ The Clonefield is much better
+ Even if it's slightly lackluster, the Voidraven has a place rather than being a very expensive Razorwing without much going for it.
- Reavers are pretty terrible now
- Huskblade heading to AP3 sucks, but could be mitigated with strength buffs (resulting in more wounds)
- Liquifiers are objectively worse.
- Wracks could be pointless in a non-coven list, we'll need to see if they get even a mediocre save.
- Less weapons on wyches hurts them, but could be mitigated if dodge applies to overwatch.
I'm sure there's more I'm missing on both sides, but overall I'm pretty happy.
Fluff wise they should... But I don't think they need any more of a leg up against daemons. Mass poison Kills the flying circus and any other list with greater daemons.
First, I dont mind the pose, and with all the options of arms we have already seen, I think the real life model can look great.
Second, I think its great they make a uniqe pose. Anyone that want running action legs can easily kitbash, but anyone that want a more regal and calculating predator type now has a fair option.
Third, I wonder if this pose was originally made with the thought of a possible chariot in mind. It would make all kinds of sense if that guy was posed at the front of a sleek hover chariot.
Edit: Well, I just realise it would be extremly hard to keep your balance on a skimmer chariot standing like that, so neweermind the last bit
EYEofTERROR wrote: It looks like the worst codex update to follow the best codex update of all time.
Templars. At least you're not folded into Eldar.
Ah the classic I got raped way harder dude, so your raping shouldn't matter to you argument. Was waiting for that one to rear its head.
If someone claims this to be the worst Codex update and I disagree I'm going to say so. Nowhere did I say whether this update is going to be good or not, I only pointed out that I felt "the worst" was hyperbole. And I sure as gak haven't been waiting for a strawman...
I admit I came across much harsher and impolite then I intended, so apologies. However it was hardly a strawman, I get very tired of Black templar and dare I say Sisters out loud hijacking threads with their complaining. It's valid complaining, don't get me wrong, just not in this thread it isn't. But after rereading your post I am now aware that wasn't your intent so again sorry.
Even if they were going for a static, observational pose those legs are ridiculous and the arms turn it from rubbish to gak. Apart from the blade and cloak I can't see anything on him you can't get from existing plastics and use to make a better model.
So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights ALL got a big battalion box...
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights ALL got a big battalion box...
Whoops, I guess I missed those. It looks like they come out the week after the releases are done.
There's also that named Archon that hasn't been announced yet, I guess he's coming out with a Sanctus Reach style box?
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights ALL got a big battalion box...
Whoops, I guess I missed those. It looks like they come out the week after the releases are done.
There's also that named Archon that hasn't been announced yet, I guess he's coming out with a Sanctus Reach style box?
where did you hear about a named archon? in a campaign box?!?
i saw the pictures from the painting guide that had the named archon, but it looks like the same archon model coming out? Is he the named character?
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights ALL got a big battalion box...
Whoops, I guess I missed those. It looks like they come out the week after the releases are done.
There's also that named Archon that hasn't been announced yet, I guess he's coming out with a Sanctus Reach style box?
I am totally hoping for that DE / BA battle kit!!! Only reason I mentioned the larger battalions is because they are actually a decent deal as far as GW is concerned. You actually save a bit of money! So I am really hoping that the "Denizens of the Dark City" nonsense isn't the one they release for DE as there is a 0% discount or reason to purchase it over anything else..
godswildcard wrote: So is this release done after the Succubus and Archon are released? I kinda expected to see the new large battalion box by now. Surely it's not the wrack bundle they have on their website?
Unless there's something coming out of left field that's it. I think they stopped the bigger battleforces when 7th started, Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights all didn't get one.
Orks, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights ALL got a big battalion box...
Whoops, I guess I missed those. It looks like they come out the week after the releases are done.
There's also that named Archon that hasn't been announced yet, I guess he's coming out with a Sanctus Reach style box?
I doubt that named Archon has actual stats. People were speculating who "Nazdreg Steeleye" was in the Ork codex, but he was just a name that they attached to a big mek model to make it feel more narrative-y. If I had to guess, they just gave an Archon model a cool name. New SM terminator captain was the same.
with the rumor of there not being a named archon in the codex there might be a chance he does have a stat line though.
Im praying for that DE/BA campaign or starter set. I loved storm claw, as it was such a good deal for what you got, and i love Dark Vengeance. The snap-fit models are beautiful and its super easy to put together a good amount of troops. Customization is a little tougher, but that doesn't bother me.
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SarisKhan wrote: Interesting. The iBooks ad shows the Husk Blade in a noticeably different pose than the WD cover. Conversion?
i hope you have multiple poses/options for the archon. it probably is a conversion though as i don't see you getting multiples of the same weapon
Shingen wrote: I think reavers will actually suprise some people, those hammer of wrath hits plus i6 and 3 attacks on the charge will hurt a lot of armies.
Dont forget the possible buff that the combat drug brings. Not that I have any clue what those do at this point in the rumors.
I must say though, since I've stopped playing the game all together as I just can't stand the direction the game has gone, percieved nerfs or buffs don't bug me. What does bug me though is the loss of options, wargear, named characters, etc. From a modelers perspective the loss of those options is just a crying shame.
Yeah, there is nothing from stopping me from still modeling up a Lady Malas model, but its just not the same, I really cant explain it very well. Its just something you feel.
I must say though, since I've stopped playing the game all together as I just can't stand the direction the game has gone, percieved nerfs or buffs don't bug me. What does bug me though is the loss of options, wargear, named characters, etc. From a modelers perspective the loss of those options is just a crying shame.
Yeah, there is nothing from stopping me from still modeling up a Lady Malas model, but its just not the same, I really cant explain it very well. Its just something you feel.
I know just how you feel, as I'm in the same boat. For me, the conversions are fun when rules come out for unique models or units and you think, "I know exactly how I want to build that!".
Yeah, because no army that can currently take Stealth on their skimmers ever takes it, right?
Such a silly comment. 3+ Jink sucks man. Great take.
Other armies that can get stealth on their skimmers either have lots of twinlinked weaponry, psykic powers to increase their chance to hit, or marker lights to raise their snap shot chance.
Also DE vehicles are cheap, paying 10 points more on a 60 point model that is going to die quickly anyway it a worse investment than a holofield on a serpant that is never going to die.
Also how useful is stealth on an army that wants to fight at night anyway and will get stealth first turn anyway.
Some DE vehicles have built in 5++ saves. adding upgrades to jink on 3+ instead of 4+ is less useful if you are probably not going to jink anyway and use the 5++.
The old nightshields were great, as they gave you the option of not being hit at all by many weapons. DE are a medium ranged army and need to keep close range stuff away from them.
Yeah, you probably wouldn't put it on a Venom or a Ravager. Raiders are another story. The expense of their cargo more then justifies it, and the shooting a Raider does is completely tertiary to its primary role. Anyway, calling it worthless is just completely ridiculous. That word has a specific meaning that is being entirely abused in this context.
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Dont forget the possible buff that the combat drug brings. Not that I have any clue what those do at this point in the rumors.
The last I saw was +1 Attack, Toughness, Strength, Ld, Initiative, WS.
The last I saw was +1 Attack, Toughness, Strength, Ld, Initiative, WS.
Pretty much everything besides I is pretty gravy.
+1 Ld is largely "meh" too.
I've felt for a while that high initiative should convey a bonus higher than just striking first, only because most things that strike quickly struggle to wound. Personally, I like WFB's system for elves of having high INT and ASF conveying rerolls to hit in CC. In 40K I'd like to see higher initiative grant rerolls of 1s and double initiative allow for rerolls of to hit.
Don't get me wrong, the rumored changed to combat drugs are MUCH better.
Personally, I hoped they were slightly-bigger buffs given drugs are kind of the DE equivalent to the psychic phase. Especially given it's a random table, they're not all useful and you have to pay for them.
agnosto wrote: Funny how a FnP buff isn't part of the table since they're drug-crazed cultists rampaging wildly through the enemy and all...
There was a rumor there was an item a character could carry that buffed the FNP by 1. 4+ FNP isnt too crazy, but if it rolled up to 3+ it might be kinda crazy. Particularly in combat after a 4++. That is terminator surviability against anything str5 or less.
agnosto wrote: Funny how a FnP buff isn't part of the table since they're drug-crazed cultists rampaging wildly through the enemy and all...
There was a rumor there was an item a character could carry that buffed the FNP by 1. 4+ FNP isnt too crazy, but if it rolled up to 3+ it might be kinda crazy. Particularly in combat after a 4++. That is terminator surviability against anything str5 or less.
Other armies that can get stealth on their skimmers either have lots of twinlinked weaponry, psykic powers to increase their chance to hit, or marker lights to raise their snap shot chance.
Also DE vehicles are cheap, paying 10 points more on a 60 point model that is going to die quickly anyway it a worse investment than a holofield on a serpant that is never going to die.
Also how useful is stealth on an army that wants to fight at night anyway and will get stealth first turn anyway.
Some DE vehicles have built in 5++ saves. adding upgrades to jink on 3+ instead of 4+ is less useful if you are probably not going to jink anyway and use the 5++.
The old nightshields were great, as they gave you the option of not being hit at all by many weapons. DE are a medium ranged army and need to keep close range stuff away from them.
Though I am upset over many of the changes, the nightshield one is NOT anything I would be upset over. It is not a nerf, It is a huge BUFF.
How you ask? Well, how about the ability to NOT jink and still get a 3+ cover save? A raider/ venom behind an aegis will give that to you, EVERY ROUND, not just with nightfight.
3+, no Jink. They shoot at you, you laugh and shoot back at full ballistic skill.
behind woods? Enjoy your 4+ (the old jink) for 10 points.
How in the world is this a bad investment? 10 (or 15 as rumored) points may save your transport and all the models inside. Form me, it is an auto-include!
That means, of course, the rumor is going to be false!
Other armies that can get stealth on their skimmers either have lots of twinlinked weaponry, psykic powers to increase their chance to hit, or marker lights to raise their snap shot chance.
Also DE vehicles are cheap, paying 10 points more on a 60 point model that is going to die quickly anyway it a worse investment than a holofield on a serpant that is never going to die.
Also how useful is stealth on an army that wants to fight at night anyway and will get stealth first turn anyway.
Some DE vehicles have built in 5++ saves. adding upgrades to jink on 3+ instead of 4+ is less useful if you are probably not going to jink anyway and use the 5++.
The old nightshields were great, as they gave you the option of not being hit at all by many weapons. DE are a medium ranged army and need to keep close range stuff away from them.
Though I am upset over many of the changes, the nightshield one is NOT anything I would be upset over. It is not a nerf, It is a huge BUFF.
How you ask? Well, how about the ability to NOT jink and still get a 3+ cover save? A raider/ venom behind an aegis will give that to you, EVERY ROUND, not just with nightfight.
3+, no Jink. They shoot at you, you laugh and shoot back at full ballistic skill.
behind woods? Enjoy your 4+ (the old jink) for 10 points.
How in the world is this a bad investment? 10 (or 15 as rumored) points may save your transport and all the models inside. Form me, it is an auto-include!
That means, of course, the rumor is going to be false!
Your crazy if you think a floating vehicle 10 feet off the ground is getting jack from a 5 foot wall. I would laugh, then I would tell you to remove your vehicle because you rolled a 4, and it was not high enough to save.
Isn't True Line of Sight still applicable in 7th? I'm pretty sure the skimmer abstraction no longer applies, and the physical model is the only thing that matters.
Of course, the prevalence of Markers and Serpents cancels out cover anyway.
From Warseer:
I do have a phographed version of the codex anda i can say following:
- Haywire granades only for characters
- Ravagers more expensive
- 4 weapons for Scourges
- No carabines for trueborns
- Raiders and Ravagers come with dissis. Dark lances + 5 points
- Bomber is 160 points + cost of missiles
No board or bike for Archon
Scourges: 16 points each
Incubi: 20 points, no granades
Reavers: 16 points each, can leave combat
Witches: 10 points
Kabalites: 8 points
Talos: 120, units of 1-3
Cronos: 100 units 1-3
Hemie: 70
Mandrakes: 12
Hellions: 13, no granades
Reading the codex, I have a big feeling of: WTF have you done to my army? Give me my Dark Eldar back!!!!!
No vect or AP2 for Archon (Succubus has option of a ****** AP2 weapn)
Scourges are NOT relentless
weapons for trueborns, min size 5 man squad, no carabines
wracks are elite, no improvement, 1 special weapon for every 5 models
No harlies
Court: Llamean 10, Ur ghul 15, Medusae 25, Sslyth 25
Positive things? I'm really shocked after going through this **** i'm reading now. Assualt army? Really? No granades in the assualt units. I own like 20 trueborns with carabines. ******* U GW. You have ruined my army.
Well, splinter racks work now with every splinter weapon. I can see 5 scourges with Splinter cannos on a Raider with racks, 24 twin linked poisoned shots.
Combat drugs are:
1: +1A
2: +1S
3: +1I
4: +1T
5:+1 WS 6: +1L
Nocturnus wrote: From Warseer:
- Haywire granades only for characters
- Ravagers more expensive
- 4 weapons for Scourges
- No carabines for trueborns
- Raiders and Ravagers come with dissis. Dark lances + 5 points
- Bomber is 160 points + cost of missiles
No board or bike for Archon
Scourges: 16 points each
Incubi: 20 points, no granades
Reavers: 16 points each, can leave combat
Witches: 10 points
Kabalites: 8 points
Talos: 120, units of 1-3
Cronos: 100 units 1-3
Hemie: 70
Mandrakes: 12
Hellions: 13, no granades
Reading the codex, I have a big feeling of: WTF have you done to my army? Give me my Dark Eldar back!!!!!
No vect or AP2 for Archon (Succubus has option of a ****** AP2 weapn)
Scourges are NOT relentless
weapons for trueborns, min size 5 man squad, no carabines
wracks are elite, no improvement, 1 special weapon for every 5 models
No harlies
Court: Llamean 10, Ur ghul 15, Medusae 25, Sslyth 25
Positive things? I'm really shocked after going through this **** i'm reading now. Assualt army? Really? No granades in the assualt units. I own like 20 trueborns with carabines. ******* U GW. You have ruined my army.
Wow, what epic crap.
No haywire for wyches or trueborn?
Wyches still 10ppm. Ooo they could get +1 T and be breakable Orks with less attacks for double the cost. Ravagers more expensive and more expenisve to put dark lances on them? Dark Lances are great arent they?
"Can leave combat" implies Hit and Run, which is a small consolation for Reavers (though they still have to survive a round of combat with fragile T4 4+sv bodies).
4 specials for Scourges is pretty dope; relentless would have been nice, but relentless on 12'' moving platform that wields 4 splinter-cannons would be ridiculous.
As far as everything else, just lol. Looking forward to seeing all the logic-hoops GW apologists jump through to put a positive spin on this gak.
"J-just because Wyches don't have a re-rollable 2++ I-Win EZ mode button don't make them bad!"
Looks like very nice buff for scourges ,also looks like new haemoculus has statline of acient one, i hope we still can take more than 1 per HQ slot.
To be honest imo squishy and elite assualt armies are dead since 6ed ,and thers no much things that could change that.
So theres no use for crying ,because thats not suprice that full assualt DE dont exist anymore
only unit that i see in combat are jetbikes that can survive with 3+ cover and quickly kill things like small squads of infantry ofc if they still have drugs and cc weapons for champion ,after all 6pts drop for that new bladewanes in not nerf , but its sad that gw cuts of things that are funny and unique for armies
So for real though, what would be a good unit? I have a bunch of wraithguard that I was thinking of using as counts-as Sslyth (big durable bodyguards...that works, right?)
Webway portal combined with an archon and a bunch of Sslyth up ins?
...Well, that solidly knocks out any of my desire to get into 7th and pick up this new DE book.
Seriously, I didn't want to be right about all of the Special Characters without models being cut, or no bikes/skyboards for Archons since they don't have official models, it's just GW is some sort of "super-villain obvious" with these changes.
Even worse, it seems that some of the remaining CC strength was cut out. Hip, hip, hurrah?
After what they did to my orks... I can accept this as a light blow. At least power from pain doesn't kill your own troops every turn.
Its a wildcard army that ultimately remains extremely wildcard.
Its just such an emotional response watching codex after codex have option after option removed. In the end, its good for the game (as long as they can reign in their natural instincts to make units like Wyverns and Wave Serpents). But I'd just kill for a honest to god statement from GW appologizing for going crazy before, explaining the need to trim back the game (which I recognize the hypocracy of this statement with formations, dataslates, supplements, etc).
They need to treat us like adults and acknowledge what they're doing. Not just give us a company line of "EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. NEVER BEEN BETTER"
Goresaw wrote: After what they did to my orks... I can accept this as a light blow. At least power from pain doesn't kill your own troops every turn.
Its a wildcard army that ultimately remains extremely wildcard.
Its just such an emotional response watching codex after codex have option after option removed. In the end, its good for the game (as long as they can reign in their natural instincts to make units like Wyverns and Wave Serpents). But I'd just kill for a honest to god statement from GW appologizing for going crazy before, explaining the need to trim back the game (which I recognize the hypocracy of this statement with formations, dataslates, supplements, etc).
They need to treat us like adults and acknowledge what they're doing. Not just give us a company line of "EVERYTHING IS AWESOME. NEVER BEEN BETTER"
I don't understand what they are doing tbh
They are not forging a narrative as they consistantly ignore their own fluff
They are not balancing as units are all over the place and they make no attempt to addess the current balance issues with OP units and units that are pitiful - even in the same codex.
its just bizare as they seem intent to drive people out of their part of the hobby?
So this is what they want to be remembered by when they finally bite the dust in the soon-to-be future? It's very disheartening to see how badly managed these current codices are. It's like going back to 4th ed. CSM blandness but with even more character being removed.
It's a good thing I bought like $350.00 worth of DE to prepare for their "awesome new codex".... Ha ha ha, but I can't complain, I knew it would happen.
I had my mind set that this wouldn't happen. I couldn't see GW swinging the bat this hard, if this is all 100% true. I won't stop playing DE as I just started and I'm not familiar with the good old days. but for the longtime players it's got to hurt
I will hold out hope...but do they typically release new models for data slates? If not I doubt it....You would think that they would put it in the dex as more people are likely to buy that than a dataslate.
Not really sure why in 2014 everyone who gets an early dex is taking photos with a flip phone making it impossible to decipher, but I took the image into photoshop and sharpened it up.
Losing Haywire on wyches really sucks, but hey it justifies selling all those Imperial Knights. Wouldn't want to scratch those.
Archon gets a 3+ save stock is nice. It gives me hope that the first round of rumors of ghostplate being a 4+/6++ as a relic weren't true. I can't see taking armor with an effect that's a step back.
Haemy's getting five attacks is pretty nice depending on the kit. Greater chance of getting a ID wound through.
Urien could be a star depending on his special rules. S5 T5 with 4 attacks and 5 wounds could be very interesting when he gets going with PFP.
I'll wait until we see more to be too doom and gloom. I wont lie, it's not looking amazing right now -- but given we're seeing some stat line changes there could be more we're missing.
Hey, Kabalite warriors cost -1 point and get FNP just for sitting around in cover.
Turn 3 all our guys get Furious charge so we can finally punch AV10.
Turn 3 Reavers are S4 Hammer of Wrath. If they get the right drug they're S5 hammer.... All rending.
You caught all this right?
No vect or AP2 for Archon
Shadowfield more expensive
No Flickerfields for non venoms
Scourges are NOT relentless
weapons for trueborns, min size 5 man squad, no carabines
wracks are elite, no improvement, 1 special weapon for every 5 models
No harlies
Haywire granades only for characters
- Ravagers more expensive
- 4 weapons for Scourges
- No carabines for trueborns
- Raiders and Ravagers come with dissis. Dark lances + 5 points
- Bomber is 160 points + cost of missiles
No board or bike for Archon
Hey, Kabalite warriors cost -1 point and get FNP just for sitting around in cover.
Turn 3 all our guys get Furious charge so we can finally punch AV10.
Turn 3 Reavers are S4 Hammer of Wrath. If they get the right drug they're S5 hammer.... All rending.
Yes, because av10 is such a pain in the ass for Dark Eldar to deal with, that they're completely powerless against it until this God-given blessing that is furious charge three turns into match.
Hey, Kabalite warriors cost -1 point and get FNP just for sitting around in cover.
Turn 3 all our guys get Furious charge so we can finally punch AV10.
Turn 3 Reavers are S4 Hammer of Wrath. If they get the right drug they're S5 hammer.... All rending.
Either way, the Toughness 3 models will all be paste by Turn 3.
You're playing DE wrong.
No, you are (see how pointless that is saying?)
Reavers got by because they could bladevane around, not because they could fight in close combat. Now they'll HoW into a unit and kill a few guys and then all die. Great.
PFP used to keep units *alive*- it's necessary to keep things ticking in the beginning when the firepower is the highest. Also, please see Mr. Morden's post above since it covers all the new...wonderful changes.
Here I thought Raids was more high cost, compare to some other things in this game, I mean.... AV10 with 1 semi ok gun, that is open top (+1 to damage roll and flamers get D6 hits) A bolt gun can pop a raider..... why does it have to cost more.
Or why cant it cost 40pts and you can add Dis cannon for 10pts or DL for 20pts??? I WOULD LOVE THAT!!!!!!!!
When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Stop assaulting your Reavers into things that can easily slaughter them.
That wasn't even the argument I was making. Reavers were never built for assaulting, they were meant to do bladevane attacks. GW, in their infinite wisdom, got rid of that ability because, I don't know, it's too confusing?
But you don't seem interested in discussing this, you'd just rather dismiss us all as "whining." Got it
When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Stop assaulting your Reavers into things that can easily slaughter them.
That wasn't even the argument I was making. Reavers were never built for assaulting, they were meant to do bladevane attacks. GW, in their infinite wisdom, got rid of that ability because, I don't know, it's too confusing?
But you don't seem interested in discussing this, you'd just rather dismiss us all as "whining." Got it
Your argument wasnt clear at all, it seem like you just wanted to whine about people whining which makes me think your whining too...
But I think I understand what you was trying to say? let me try.
Cough cough cough..
"Try to use your Reavers in a different manner, a good choice would be to wait for Turn 3 or 4 to do a last minute charge for an objective. Another thing, with the HoW hits and some Rending should make mopping up a unit fail to be killed from your shooting easy. "
Is that what you meant? Using them against things you know they will win against?
Well to be frank, there isnt much out there, tau with amazing Ovewatch, Necrons overwatch so strong too, Flamers auto hits (breaking out armor) and the amount of S6 and S7 on the field only strong units like Riptides and Wrathknights seem to be present out in the open to be charged.. and we know how well reavers are against those.
When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Stop assaulting your Reavers into things that can easily slaughter them.
That wasn't even the argument I was making. Reavers were never built for assaulting, they were meant to do bladevane attacks. GW, in their infinite wisdom, got rid of that ability because, I don't know, it's too confusing?
But you don't seem interested in discussing this, you'd just rather dismiss us all as "whining." Got it
Now they're a 16 point assault unit with utility for only 16 points.
When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Stop assaulting your Reavers into things that can easily slaughter them.
That wasn't even the argument I was making. Reavers were never built for assaulting, they were meant to do bladevane attacks. GW, in their infinite wisdom, got rid of that ability because, I don't know, it's too confusing?
But you don't seem interested in discussing this, you'd just rather dismiss us all as "whining." Got it
Your argument wasnt clear at all, it seem like you just wanted to whine about people whining which makes me think your whining too...
But I think I understand what you was trying to say? let me try.
Cough cough cough..
"Try to use your Reavers in a different manner, a good choice would be to wait for Turn 3 or 4 to do a last minute charge for an objective. Another thing, with the HoW hits and some Rending should make mopping up a unit fail to be killed from your shooting easy. "
Is that what you meant? Using them against things you know they will win against?
Well to be frank, there isnt much out there, tau with amazing Ovewatch, Necrons overwatch so strong too, Flamers auto hits (breaking out armor) and the amount of S6 and S7 on the field only strong units like Riptides and Wrathknights seem to be present out in the open to be charged.. and we know how well reavers are against those.
Thanks for the unnecessary condescending tone. I will say this AGAIN, since I didn't think it require that much elaboration since we are going on what Eldar Jetbikes do.
Ahem, Dark Eldar reavers have never been good at assault for all the reasons T3 space elves just aren't. Part of the reason people took Reavers before was due to the fact that they could do bladevane attacks, which kept them out of close combat (which they suck at) and allowed them to harass people, as well as supply a cover save for moving at high speeds.
The loss of bladevane removes that major purpose. Hammer of Wrath attacks, while able to kill some models, will not do that much and at the worst result in the unit being destroyed by almost any mildly CC-oriented unit. Toss in what you were saying about Overwatch, and a number of those attacks don't even make it.
I didn't bother explaining all of the merits of assaulting with Eldar jetbikes because I figured they're nothing new.
When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Stop assaulting your Reavers into things that can easily slaughter them.
That wasn't even the argument I was making. Reavers were never built for assaulting, they were meant to do bladevane attacks. GW, in their infinite wisdom, got rid of that ability because, I don't know, it's too confusing?
But you don't seem interested in discussing this, you'd just rather dismiss us all as "whining." Got it
Now they're a 16 point assault unit with utility for only 16 points.
That is an improvement, yes. I just don't think the points drop and new HoW make them an effective unit compared to the bladevane attacks. Now they are largely a single-CC round suicide unit, and I just see that as being worse.
They're 28% cheaper (!) and will get T4, S4, WS5, or +1 attack most likely. Rending HoW is decent especially if caltrops give D6 Hammers each. And they get Hit And Run. And FNP even f they don't kill anything.
They're fantastic for a 16 point assault unit. 16 points used to get us a crappy Hellion.
mercury14 wrote: They're 28% cheaper (!) and will get T4, S4, WS5, or +1 attack most likely. Rending HoW is decent especially if caltrops give D6 Hammers each. And they get Hit And Run. And FNP even f they don't kill anything.
They're fantastic for a 16 point assault unit. 16 points used to get us a crappy Hellion.
Ugh...hellions
Well we shall see if these benefits make reavers effective. I admit I am still dubious but some of those changes *could* be beneficial (do caltrops really give D6HoW a piece?)
I think I would have just really liked to have seen Archons on bikes, that would have resolved any feelings I had about the loss of bladevanes (especially since the reavers combined would make an interesting assault unit).
mercury14 wrote: They're 28% cheaper (!) and will get T4, S4, WS5, or +1 attack most likely. Rending HoW is decent especially if caltrops give D6 Hammers each. And they get Hit And Run. And FNP even f they don't kill anything.
They're fantastic for a 16 point assault unit. 16 points used to get us a crappy Hellion.
Ugh...hellions Well we shall see if these benefits make reavers effective. I admit I am still dubious but some of those changes *could* be beneficial (do caltrops really give D6HoW a piece?)
I think I would have just really liked to have seen Archons on bikes, that would have resolved any feelings I had about the loss of bladevanes (especially since the reavers combined would make an interesting assault unit).
vipoid wrote: Perhaps they saw a lot of Eldar + Dark Eldar lists winning... and assumed that Dark Eldar were the problem.
Its typical GW, they are applying complaints from 5th edition. Look at orks, the things that barely worked were nerfed because they were good in 5th.
if they had been following the complaints from 5th, baron would be gone and venoms would be 100pts. Reavers would have gotten buffed, they werent particularly good in 5th, they got much better in 6th.
Not trying to be TFG but wouldn't an archon on a bike or board be a little against fluff. I thought they were in the wych cults. Maybe a succubus on a bike?
Not that he couldn't get his hands on a bike. But that would be him hanging out with a bunch of people he thinks are under him.
The guy with the photos of the codex is showing 5 scourges with heat lances for 120 pts. It would be great if they had a no-scatter DS like Swooping Hawks... *fingers crossed*
The guy with the photos of the codex is showing 5 scourges with heat lances for 120 pts. It would be great if they had a no-scatter DS like Swooping Hawks... *fingers crossed*
Yeah attach someone with a WWP then move the IC out of the unit next turn.
Nocturnus wrote: From Warseer:
I do have a phographed version of the codex anda i can say following:
- Haywire granades only for characters
- Ravagers more expensive
- 4 weapons for Scourges
- No carabines for trueborns
- Raiders and Ravagers come with dissis. Dark lances + 5 points
- Bomber is 160 points + cost of missiles
No board or bike for Archon
Scourges: 16 points each
Incubi: 20 points, no granades
Reavers: 16 points each, can leave combat
Witches: 10 points
Kabalites: 8 points
Talos: 120, units of 1-3
Cronos: 100 units 1-3
Hemie: 70
Mandrakes: 12
Hellions: 13, no granades
Reading the codex, I have a big feeling of: WTF have you done to my army? Give me my Dark Eldar back!!!!!
No vect or AP2 for Archon (Succubus has option of a ****** AP2 weapn)
Scourges are NOT relentless
weapons for trueborns, min size 5 man squad, no carabines
wracks are elite, no improvement, 1 special weapon for every 5 models
No harlies
Court: Llamean 10, Ur ghul 15, Medusae 25, Sslyth 25
Positive things? I'm really shocked after going through this **** i'm reading now. Assualt army? Really? No granades in the assualt units. I own like 20 trueborns with carabines. ******* U GW. You have ruined my army.
Well, splinter racks work now with every splinter weapon. I can see 5 scourges with Splinter cannos on a Raider with racks, 24 twin linked poisoned shots.
Combat drugs are:
1: +1A
2: +1S
3: +1I
4: +1T
5:+1 WS 6: +1L
Hahahahaha! I'm sorry, this is so sad and pathetic that it's actually funny to me, that or its because I'm sleep depraved.
This is literally the worst gak I've ever seen, it's worse than Tyranids.
This codex truly shows how disconnected they are from the game and player feedback. The only new weapon they added is a 24" dark lance with a blast profile. Like seriously, that's like giving IG a new weapon option that's identical with the auto canon and add a blast to the profile. It's the last thing they need and how the actual feth does GW intend for DE flyers to work with no FF? Jink? They have no TL weaponry (no, that TL splinter rifle doesn't count) and the rest of their weapons are unable to snap shot, they are literally useless as soon as they enter the board because no person would ever dare not to jink with an AV10 flyers. No carbines for borns, are they mad? They nerf the splinter cannon, gives DE an improved splinter rack AND THEN decides that borns shouldn't have carbines? What?
Reavers, no comment. 1 S4 HoW attack does NOT compensate for 1d3 for each bladevane, and why even remove this ability when screamers where allowed to keep it?
And what exactly do DE do with assault units now? Especially since their assault units (no, wyches isn't an assault unit, they tarpit stuff) now lost acces to assault grenades? Raiders must pay for lances now? In an edition where they are in a constant state of jink? Is that a joke?
C'mon, you know why; they're going to make a mini-dex for harlies that are usable by DE and Eldar; they have to milk it for all it's worth.
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
The bomber is way too many points for a 10/10/10 platform; once you buy the missiles, you're looking at stormraven points without the survivability and PoTMS.
agnosto wrote: C'mon, you know why; they're going to make a mini-dex for harlies that are usable by DE and Eldar; they have to milk it for all it's worth.
Of course! How could I be so stupid? You're right. HarliDex with a single unit should be coming our way soon.
mercury14 wrote: When the Eldar codex was at this stage people whined a whole lot too.
Not really.
Absolutely yes. Want me to link you the thread? This board was 60 pages of crying when the Eldar book was in this stage of pre-release. To be fair, not just this board, but the vast majority of the man dollie internetting community. It's kind of what this community does about everything.
The changes to PfP are pretty massive, and the points drops are massive as well. There is quite a bit of good to be found here. The things I see most people bitching about are "nerfs" to units most people didn't even configure anway. Shardcarbine Trueborn? Really? I've never seen that in a competitive list. Not once. Now, if you converted up a unit of them, I feel for you. But most people bitching about that are just the negative inclined people who want to bitch about anything.
I can almost guaruentee there are some other changes in store for Wyches yet that have not come to light. Losing haywire is disappointing, but they will have a redefined role that focuses much more to what they were pre 5th. The changes to PfP is already a massive buff for them. It kind of shocks me that so many people haven't figured that out yet.
My advice to everyone is to take a deep breath and start thinking about how you can maximize on the positive changes. It will make you a better player. Or, you could just keep bitching on the internet. It's whateves.
If 5 scourge with 4 heat lances is only 120 then its safe to assume 4 haywires are not much more, possibly less, which is disgusting.
I literally broke down and lol when I saw wyches stayed at 10 ppm... it mind blowing that anyone in that studio can think they are good.
mandrakes sound real solid now to be honest. 12ppm for infiltrate, stealth and shroud with s4 and a, assault 2 18" ap4 soulblaze weapon... hilarious that contained in the same book are wyches with no where near as many boons for only 2 points less ha ha... Wow!
Hellions are imjpossible to make good in 7th, I mean I guess they could be even cheaper, but compared to wyches they look solid lol, but then again what doesn't?
I mean is a wych really only 1ppm cheaper then a space marine scout? Twice as expensive as a slugga boy? Unreal, I thought for sure they would be down to 8ppm at least AND have better combat perks (enemy can't fire overwatch for example)... such a missed opportunity, I love the models and have spent 50hours painting mine so far, without haywires I honestly have no reason to EVER field them when warriors are 8ppm...
I don't mind the archon nerfs as much as some, probably because I never used a combat characterr with DE. Too many points for too delicate a model, they were never worth the investment IMO, just give him a shadowfield to tank and a blaster and WWP and he's a peach, I am hoping he can still dual wield blast pistols for laughs.
I have no idea why liquifiers are s3 and more expensive but someone did say each grot can have one so there is that I guess.
Really happy I only bought 9 reavers ha ha, probably throw 3 heat lances on them and use them on seek and destroy missions.
I wonder is trueborn are even worth taking anymore? needing 5 minimum and who knows how many special guns they can field now?
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
Huh?
Most of their weapons were Assault already. There is absolutely no reason Scourges needed relentless. The point drop and /upgrade changes is more then enough to make them significantly better.
lol. The traditional whine about whiners ploy, well played sir. We can't have people around annoyed about random nerfs and wtf decisions like scourges without the one ability that would make them useful or a paper bomber that will crash in a stiff breeze but costs $80 and 160pts without a payload.
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
Huh?
Most of their weapons were Assault already. There is absolutely no reason Scourges needed relentless. The point drop and /upgrade changes is more then enough to make them significantly better.
I agree, the only weapons they can't take full advantage of are the SC and DL, which IMO are the worst options for them anyway for the points. They each come with a shard carbine, why pay +10 points for even the old profile? Just buy more scourge.
I own 2 units of 5 and they are definitely getting haywire blasters as long as they weren't nerfed. They solve our AT issues. If unit leaders saw a point drop or heaven forbid were free for none vet sergents like marines then I can see haywires in every unit. If, and I know it's a big if, but if it's cost effective for 5 guys with a blaster and haywire grenade, thats more AT. DS your venoms and lob a grenade with your blaster shots.
Really need the whole book to see where we end up guys.
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
Huh?
Most of their weapons were Assault already. There is absolutely no reason Scourges needed relentless. The point drop and /upgrade changes is more then enough to make them significantly better.
So? Literally every Tau battlesuit weapon is assault and yet they inexplicably have relentless. Venom cannons are assault?
Edit. Maybe I'm confused about something. I'll just shut my trap.
agnosto wrote: lol. The traditional whine about whiners ploy, well played sir. We can't have people around annoyed about random nerfs and wtf decisions like scourges without the one ability that would make them useful or a paper bomber that will crash in a stiff breeze but costs $80 and 160pts without a payload.
I'm not whining about anything. I'm offering a level perspective to the angst and histironics prevalent on this thread. You can bitch all you want. It's not going to change anything, it's likely not a realistic perspective of the still not released codex, and it certainly isn't going to make you any better at rolling dice with your man dollies. But I'm sure it's making you feel better about your life, so there's that.
Again, units with access to a wide range of Assault weapons don't need relentless. I'm not sure why you have such a hard time wrapping your head around that, but it is what it is.
Harriticus wrote: Only Blood Angels and Necrons are left until all codex's have been updated within the last 1.5 years or so. GW's codex blitz is running out.
If I played necrons I would be scared right now. that book is going to get horse punched worse then any other xenos to date I bet.... Mark my words.
Do you honestly not understand what the word most means. That's unfortunate, but I'll be happy to assist a fellow 40k enthusiast ::
most
[mohst] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
adjective, superl. of much or many with more as compar.
1.
in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number:
to win the most votes.
2.
in the majority of instances:
Most operations are successful.
No need for the dictionary quotes fellas. It's easy to get emotional when we invest so much time, money and hope into an army. We are all friends here, or I hope we are.
Do you honestly not understand what the word most means. That's unfortunate, but I'll be happy to assist a fellow 40k enthusiast ::
most
[mohst] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
adjective, superl. of much or many with more as compar.
1.
in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number:
to win the most votes.
2.
in the majority of instances:
Most operations are successful.
Your welcome
Way to be a tool and ignore my friendly edit. Enjoy being the first person on my ignore list.
agnosto wrote: I'm still hoping the bomber has some cool rule that will help it to survive../maybe drop the bomb even while jinking?
I always thought DE units should be able to fire at full BS after jinking. It makes sense and would bring them in line with everyone else while keeping their crafts light and delicate like they should be.
I always saw the bomber as an Alpha Strike vehicle anyway. Now that you can swap out its weapons to make it more Infantry focused or Vehicle focused I think it has been improved in this role.
Do you honestly not understand what the word most means. That's unfortunate, but I'll be happy to assist a fellow 40k enthusiast ::
most
[mohst] Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
adjective, superl. of much or many with more as compar.
1.
in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number:
to win the most votes.
2.
in the majority of instances:
Most operations are successful.
Your welcome
You know, if you're going to be snarky you should probably get the right form of "your" in there
)
/s
...soul siphon beads up his butt 
changes. 
Thanks for the unnecessary condescending tone. I will say this AGAIN, since I didn't think it require that much elaboration since we are going on what Eldar Jetbikes do.
