agnosto wrote: I'm still hoping the bomber has some cool rule that will help it to survive../maybe drop the bomb even while jinking?
I always thought DE units should be able to fire at full BS after jinking. It makes sense and would bring them in line with everyone else while keeping their crafts light and delicate like they should be.
Makes sense. We'll see soon. Thinking on your earlier comment; the haywire grenade nerf could be so scourges are more of an option.
I'm looking forward to seeing how everything fits together.
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
Huh?
Most of their weapons were Assault already. There is absolutely no reason Scourges needed relentless. The point drop and /upgrade changes is more then enough to make them significantly better.
So? Literally every Tau battlesuit weapon is assault and yet they inexplicably have relentless. Venom cannons are assault?
Edit. Maybe I'm confused about something. I'll just shut my trap.
Venom cannons were assault four/heavy six. I forget how salvo works, but supposedly they're 4/6 salvo now?
People weren't buying scourges so they made them better but forgot to give them the one rule that would make them useful....or intentionally did it, I don't know which is worse.
Huh?
Most of their weapons were Assault already. There is absolutely no reason Scourges needed relentless. The point drop and /upgrade changes is more then enough to make them significantly better.
So? Literally every Tau battlesuit weapon is assault and yet they inexplicably have relentless. Venom cannons are assault?
Edit. Maybe I'm confused about something. I'll just shut my trap.
Venom cannons were assault four/heavy six. I forget how salvo works, but supposedly they're 4/6 salvo now?
I could be wrong with how salvo works but don't you effectively lose half your range if you move?
agnosto wrote: I'm still hoping the bomber has some cool rule that will help it to survive../maybe drop the bomb even while jinking?
I always thought DE units should be able to fire at full BS after jinking. It makes sense and would bring them in line with everyone else while keeping their crafts light and delicate like they should be.
Makes sense. We'll see soon. Thinking on your earlier comment; the haywire grenade nerf could be so scourges are more of an option.
I'm looking forward to seeing how everything fits together.
Yea me too. I definitely am upset by some things that changed but really it sounds like some previous units are now usable as well. I mean imagine:
-mandrakes
-Sslyth
-Clawed Fiends
-Scourge
All usable from the sound of it! Heck the 1-3 for talos is big too, heck thats 3 more TL- haywire blasters! on 9 T7 3+ save 5+but possible 4+ FnP!
WWP sound amazing as well!
For anyone needing ap 2 on a character, Lelith appears really solid with rerolls hits AND wounds. With 5 attacks base and WS9 she's solid for 150. Then theres drazar as well for 190, I'll take him out for a spin in a Sslyth court sometime.
agnosto wrote: I'm still hoping the bomber has some cool rule that will help it to survive../maybe drop the bomb even while jinking?
I always thought DE units should be able to fire at full BS after jinking. It makes sense and would bring them in line with everyone else while keeping their crafts light and delicate like they should be.
Makes sense. We'll see soon. Thinking on your earlier comment; the haywire grenade nerf could be so scourges are more of an option.
I'm looking forward to seeing how everything fits together.
Yea me too. I definitely am upset by some things that changed but really it sounds like some previous units are now usable as well. I mean imagine:
-mandrakes
-Sslyth
-Clawed Fiends
-Scourge
All usable from the sound of it! Heck the 1-3 for talos is big too, heck thats 3 more TL- haywire blasters! on 9 T7 3+ save 5+but possible 4+ FnP!
WWP sound amazing as well!
For anyone needing ap 2 on a character, Lelith appears really solid with rerolls hits AND wounds. With 5 attacks base and WS9 she's solid for 150. Then theres drazar as well for 190, I'll take him out for a spin in a Sslyth court sometime.
I like the idea of packs of Talos running around since ravagers may have gotten a bit of a nerf; I'm a sucker for big grbblies.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Any news on the Special Character new rules? Hadn't seen any yet.
Not much, I read somewhere that lelith and drazar have rampage which is meh. I liked her league apart but sadly none USR are vanishing nowadays. Similar thing happened to Canis Wolfborn.
I also heard drazar gets extra attacks for each 6 to hit, also meh. He is s4 t4 2+ and AP2 EW and fearless though which is pretty awesome.
agnosto wrote: I'm still hoping the bomber has some cool rule that will help it to survive../maybe drop the bomb even while jinking?
I always thought DE units should be able to fire at full BS after jinking. It makes sense and would bring them in line with everyone else while keeping their crafts light and delicate like they should be.
Makes sense. We'll see soon. Thinking on your earlier comment; the haywire grenade nerf could be so scourges are more of an option.
I'm looking forward to seeing how everything fits together.
Yea me too. I definitely am upset by some things that changed but really it sounds like some previous units are now usable as well. I mean imagine:
-mandrakes
-Sslyth
-Clawed Fiends
-Scourge
All usable from the sound of it! Heck the 1-3 for talos is big too, heck thats 3 more TL- haywire blasters! on 9 T7 3+ save 5+but possible 4+ FnP!
WWP sound amazing as well!
For anyone needing ap 2 on a character, Lelith appears really solid with rerolls hits AND wounds. With 5 attacks base and WS9 she's solid for 150. Then theres drazar as well for 190, I'll take him out for a spin in a Sslyth court sometime.
I like the idea of packs of Talos running around since ravagers may have gotten a bit of a nerf; I'm a sucker for big grbblies.
Me too. In my experience that typeof unit excells in midfield control in maelstrom. Place a couple objectives near eachother in the center and just camp these guys between them and farm the points when available and intimidate opposing scorers. The idea od 3 haywire blasters that hit 75% of the time sound awseome to me. Way more effective then ravagers in 7th who are rumored to cost more AND still need to jink.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Yeah, I'm definitely excited about the groups of Taloi/Cronos.
I'm really interested to see the full details on both of them. From the current rumors it seems both are being adjusted quite considerably.
Yea I have seen some people complain that taloi are getting 3 attacks rather then the d6... which is so alien to me. I can't count the number of crucial turns I have rolled 1 attack or the equivalent number of times I have rolled a 6 while facing one guy lol.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Yeah, I'm definitely excited about the groups of Taloi/Cronos.
I'm really interested to see the full details on both of them. From the current rumors it seems both are being adjusted quite considerably.
Yea I have seen some people complain that taloi are getting 3 attacks rather then the d6... which is so alien to me. I can't count the number of crucial turns I have rolled 1 attack or the equivalent number of times I have rolled a 6 while facing one guy lol.
Hollismason wrote: So what's the word on Deep Striking raiders.Any interial guidance because those models are fething huge.
ICs can take a WWP and it gives their unit, plus their transport, pinpoint DS. If you are going to be DSing Raiders I would say that's probably the way to go.
So.
I've played the game for around 15 years.
I've collected Dark Eldar since I started (Some 14,000pts)
I've done Homebrew for Warhammer for some 10 years, including writing guides on the subject and helping others balance theirs.
I have ordered the Archon Edition of the Dark Eldar codex.
Once it has arrived I will be archiving the infomation therein and compiling a list of what units are now missing.
After that I will be beginning work on updating older missing units to 7th edition.
This will include Dark Eldar units from the 3rd edition and 5th edition codexes.
If Vect is truly missing, he will quite possibly be the first.
These units will be released as a series of 'Dataslates' (as PNGs, including 'credits' referencing the source and listing any changes) then as a Compendium Supplement (hopefully around Dec/Jan).
ShadarLogoth wrote: Yeah, I'm definitely excited about the groups of Taloi/Cronos.
I'm really interested to see the full details on both of them. From the current rumors it seems both are being adjusted quite considerably.
Yea I have seen some people complain that taloi are getting 3 attacks rather then the d6... which is so alien to me. I can't count the number of crucial turns I have rolled 1 attack or the equivalent number of times I have rolled a 6 while facing one guy lol.
Personally I'll take the less random.
Gamblers syndrome: "This time I'll get the 6"
Eh... 50% of hte time you were getting 4-6 attacks. Only 33% of the time you were getting less than 3 attacks. Worth the risk to me. If it was 4 set attacks versus 3... there'd definitely be no room to complain.
So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice. I'll wait until I've read it but my next purchase might be a Wave Serpent instead.
1-3 Talos is ok, but for them to be good we need to be able to two weapons on each. Three TL Haywire Blasters is not bang for your buck. Compare to Carnifexes for example, take three with two TL Devourers w/ Brainleach Worms each and that's 36 S6 TL shots (more expensive but you get the idea).
ryuken87 wrote: So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice. I'll wait until I've read it but my next purchase might be a Wave Serpent instead.
1-3 Talos is ok, but for them to be good we need to be able to two weapons on each. Three TL Haywire Blasters is not bang for your buck. Compare to Carnifexes for example, take three with two TL Devourers w/ Brainleach Worms each and that's 36 S6 TL shots (more expensive but you get the idea).
You can get 2 weapons on already can't you? TL Liquefier and a tail weapon?
Mr Morden wrote: Do we figure Lelith will loose her Ignore Armour as well
Someone on Warseer who claims to have the codex says she still has it, gains Rampage and apparently rerolls to hit and wound in close combat. No mention of if she retains her 4++/3++ save but she dropped ~25pts.
Indeed, it's getting crazy that the week is nearly over and all we've seen are two pics taken of the backpage Reference that seem to have taken with a potato.
ryuken87 wrote: So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice. I'll wait until I've read it but my next purchase might be a Wave Serpent instead.
1-3 Talos is ok, but for them to be good we need to be able to two weapons on each. Three TL Haywire Blasters is not bang for your buck. Compare to Carnifexes for example, take three with two TL Devourers w/ Brainleach Worms each and that's 36 S6 TL shots (more expensive but you get the idea).
You can get 2 weapons on already can't you? TL Liquefier and a tail weapon?
You can, but I don't think that's a good option. Talos aren't fast enough to be an up-close assault unit and don't have the shooting output or range to be a threat. Paying a 100+ points for a 24" anti tank gun (of which you need four or five of to have a good chance of taking out a vehicle in a turn) and a mediocre template (which you are unlikely to get in range for and doesn't fit the role of the unit) just isn't good. I'd happily pay c. 130-140 points if it meant two *good* guns. Alternatively make them jetpack/jump MCs.
ryuken87 wrote: So far I'm hearing some pros and cons, but as with other recent codexes it seems it will be underwhelming. What irks me most is that I don't think we will have a single *good* HQ choice.
I've always thought Succubi are good for their points and they should be a bit better now that they get FNP for just playing 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incubi are 20 pts now. Isn't that -2 pts per model? And turn 2-3 when they assault they'll all have some sort of FNP? Buff.
If Lelith is -25 pts, +1 attack, rampage, and gets better PfP, she's substantially buffed.
Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(
mercury14 wrote: Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(
Par the course. Whenever you discuss a unit that has received some unfavourable change you aren't allowed to look for the bright side. Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.
mercury14 wrote: Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit? I really have no idea why people are complaining about these guys. They seem like an exceptional unit for just 16 points. I think a lot of folks are thinking about units in isolation again which is exactly the reason people were complaining about the Eldar code being bad right before its release. :(
Par the course. Whenever you discuss a unit that has received some unfavourable change you aren't allowed to look for the bright side. Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.
Truth.
Reavers can kill Wave Serpents now. Roll a 6 on Hammer and it's a pen. If you rolled the +S drug...
"But Wave Serpents will always kill the Reavers first!"
Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.
Indeed, it's getting crazy that the week is nearly over and all we've seen are two pics taken of the backpage Reference that seem to have taken with a potato.
Heh. Consider this exalted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ryuken87 wrote: You can, but I don't think that's a good option. Talos aren't fast enough to be an up-close assault unit and don't have the shooting output or range to be a threat. Paying a 100+ points for a 24" anti tank gun (of which you need four or five of to have a good chance of taking out a vehicle in a turn) and a mediocre template (which you are unlikely to get in range for and doesn't fit the role of the unit) just isn't good. I'd happily pay c. 130-140 points if it meant two *good* guns. Alternatively make them jetpack/jump MCs.
Who knows, GW might have changed their unit type? I doubt it though.
SarisKhan wrote: Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.
I play tournaments, so yes... yes they do. Thanks for understanding the problem!
That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.
Sure. I'm not reading 60 pages though, so hopefully you can provide more than just a handful of anecdotes. Every release has at the least a vocal minority of unhappy people- that doesn't mean that every release has an equal amount of unhappy people... or that their complaints aren't valid.
I can almost guaruentee there are some other changes in store for Wyches yet that have not come to light.
Do you have a single reason to believe that beyond blind optimism?
mercury14 wrote: Reaver rending HoW is S4, not the S3 of their unit?
Where'd you hear they had rending? Str6 rending would be nice- though still inferior to what they had before.
mercury14 wrote: That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.
ShadarLogoth wrote: I always saw the bomber as an Alpha Strike vehicle anyway. Now that you can swap out its weapons to make it more Infantry focused or Vehicle focused I think it has been improved in this role.
but even when focusesed, it still isnt very good at either. Considering it's durability, it should have a much more massive damage output. So far it looks like slightly better than before in anti infantry mode, which is not that impressive. AV10 is pretty weak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mercury14 wrote: That's always been the problem with Talos, getting them where they need to be and having them be a working part of an otherwise very fast list. Highly doubt they'll be jump MCs for their points though.
They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?
perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.
really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.
Like in all things, the end result falls somewhere in the middle. There are some units that have obviously taken a big hit, while some got substantially better.
Right now I'm being a little more glass half full and feeling like (if nothing else) I'll have more diversity in list building. Too much of the 2010 dex was auto-avoid. Units that couldn't be justified under most circumstances... now there is a little more creativity to be had on the back end.
One thing I will say is that overall the last round of codexes have played far better than they've looked on paper. Orks, Wolves, Grey Knights -- the reaction to the release was all the same, now I'm seeing anecdotally that players of the armies are happier with them than they were during the leaks. All saying they were "better than they thought" after playing them.
This is probably all dumb luck, but a small part of me hopes that by writing these books so quickly and having them waiting in the wings that perhaps there's some playtesting going on.
mercury14 wrote: Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).
Thing is I had hoped (foolishly) that we would not get total rubbish units (banshees) and totally broken units (Serpents) ......
Its also just sad hwo they are now squeezing more units out to put in supplements - or just delete................
I guess eventually it will just go to each indivudal unit has a pay for dataslate............
Equally sadly many of the positive posts are how a few choice DE units will make their Eldar force even better........as GW can't be bothered to fix earlier codex before bringing new ones out.
SarisKhan wrote: Remember, every opponent you play has 10 Wave Serpents and so many Markerlights they can flood the table with them. Both at the same time, mind you.
I play tournaments, so yes... yes they do. Thanks for understanding the problem!
With Harlies out of the dex, my dreams of a harlequin counts as army are dashed. So that's a shame.
I'm certainly seeing this as being a friendly game type army. More so than any of the other 7th edition books. But I imagine it will still be fun to play. Now I just have to decide if I want to start them.
Reavers can kill Wave Serpents now. Roll a 6 on Hammer and it's a pen. If you rolled the +S drug...
HoW is resolved against the facing that you charge, not the rear armour.
So whilst it is still possible to generate a penetrating hit in this fashion it is exceptionally unlikely.
Also these hits are not AP2 so you can't destroy the tank without chipping away all the targets hull points.
Of course they also don't get hit and run -- assuming they even have that rule -- versus non walkers either so will be left all neatly lined up for execution having performed this attack.
Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.
Uh huh.
Course that assumes that you have any vehicles left from your opponents opening round or two of fire .
Or have even taken any vehicles anyway -- if the reports of Ravagers losing their ariel assault rule are true then people are really going to almost forced into running units of the MCs, which will at least take a turn or two to die.
Auswin wrote: One thing I will say is that overall the last round of codexes have played far better than they've looked on paper. Orks, Wolves, Grey Knights -- the reaction to the release was all the same, now I'm seeing anecdotally that players of the armies are happier with them than they were during the leaks. All saying they were "better than they thought" after playing them.
I would say that the reason for that is because they all balance against each other very well, imo. And I also think think that Tyranids and IG, being the last two 6th edition codices, were also designed with that power-level in mind.
If you throw Space Wolves, Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights in a room together, each codex more or less has an equal chance of beating one another, assuming the players behind them are all of equal skill. All of those codices on the other hand are at a power disadvantage compared to the top-tier armies like Eldar to even the generic-tier armies like Space Marines (but ass-tier armies like CSM and Dark Angels match up well, unintentionally).
The stabilizing of power-level is commendable, and I'm not worried about 7th edition Dark Eldar's level of competitiveness against those other 7th edition codices (well, Tyranids will probably run a train on them, but eh).
What I am worried about, and what all the rumors are pointing toward happening, is that GW is going to annihilate most of the flavor the codex had by way of removing swathes of special characters and quirky special abilities- and that they're going to make units that were already not that great even worse (points increases for venoms and ravagers? removal of EMP grenades and denial of assault grenades for wyches? why?) while substituting actual, simple fixes for bad units with lazy ppm points drops.
Which... is what looks to be the case for most of the units in the codex.
If scourges are cheaper and can take 4 weapons I'd be tempted to take 3/4 squads of them with blasters or haywire blasters to replace my haywire wych vehicle hunters.
Could it even be worth putting them in a raider (if raiders become fast attack choice) so it can jink and protect them further? Is that legal? Sound weird but it could work.
What I am worried about, and what all the rumors are pointing toward happening, is that GW is going to annihilate most of the flavor the codex had by way of removing swathes of special characters and quirky special abilities- and that they're going to make units that were already not that great even worse (points increases for venoms and ravagers? removal of EMP grenades and denial of assault grenades for wyches? why?) while substituting actual, simple fixes for bad units with lazy ppm points drops.
Which... is what looks to be the case for most of the units in the codex.
I couldn't agree more with this. Honestly, it's one of the drawbacks of playing a Xenos army. More often than not you'll be an afterthought when it comes to the simple stuff. Heck, I could probably write 1,000 words on how the proliferation of thunder hammers and storm shields have messed with the meta. They used to be rare things, and on an HQ even rarer. Now it seems every create-your-own chapter master can have one, and if you're playing Iron Hands it's worse with TH biker, gorgon chain-wielding madness.
The lack of flavor is a huge turnoff for 40k right now. So many things have been normalized to the point of being bland. It's why I keep finding myself wanting to play WFB more often these days. The games are simply more fun on the table, even if the core rules aren't as tight as 40ks.
I stopped playing marines and dove wholly into Xenos armies for the weird, quirky special rules and those are going in favor of largely plan USRs. It's a problem and I don't think it's going to get better for a while considering Vetock and Kelly have turned their attention to fantasy and are no longer working on 40k. They wrote flawed dexs to be sure, but both loved flavor -- whether it be weird D6 tables, special rules or unique characters. All that is gone for the near future.
turgon868 wrote: If scourges are cheaper and can take 4 weapons I'd be tempted to take 3/4 squads of them with blasters or haywire blasters to replace my haywire wych vehicle hunters.
Could it even be worth putting them in a raider (if raiders become fast attack choice) so it can jink and protect them further? Is that legal? Sound weird but it could work.
Ditto, will even drop trueborn in favour of that. Haywire blasters have better range.
Reavers are worse in combat than Wyches. Sure, the HoW with rending and such is nice, but it's hardly anything awesome. The flyby gave them great utility and a flavorful interesting rule. Still, a badly executed flyby and you ended up being assaulted and wiped out by a 5-man tac squad.
Now they're just slightly faster wyches. They still have lesser survivability in combat than tactical marines, even with FNP. In ranged they will be forced to constantly jink or die to a sneeze. And don't argue their guns - with constant jinking they will be pretty much useless.
Fine, they killed some 16 point guys (who get 5+ armor saves against the shield and maybe FNP so some still lived). Now my vehicles and the rest of my army gets to do what it pleases without being serpent shield'ed.
It is amazing that reavers are going to be 16 points, when they were first introduced in 3rd edition, they were 30ppm.
What I am worried about, and what all the rumors are pointing toward happening, is that GW is going to annihilate most of the flavor the codex had by way of removing swathes of special characters and quirky special abilities- and that they're going to make units that were already not that great even worse (points increases for venoms and ravagers? removal of EMP grenades and denial of assault grenades for wyches? why?) while substituting actual, simple fixes for bad units with lazy ppm points drops.
Which... is what looks to be the case for most of the units in the codex.
I couldn't agree more with this. Honestly, it's one of the drawbacks of playing a Xenos army. More often than not you'll be an afterthought when it comes to the simple stuff. Heck, I could probably write 1,000 words on how the proliferation of thunder hammers and storm shields have messed with the meta. They used to be rare things, and on an HQ even rarer. Now it seems every create-your-own chapter master can have one, and if you're playing Iron Hands it's worse with TH biker, gorgon chain-wielding madness.
All the flavorful choices in these DE rumors do not work against units with ATSKNF or fearless. Basically useless in a TAC army. It is sorely disapointing.
Wych weapons are also sorely disapointing. Each iteration seems to be worse, with less flavor. Now you can pay 50% of an additional wych to lose your shooting weapon and gain 25% additional damage. It's the deal of a century.
Honestly, I wonder if wyches suck because the kit sells so well. It would be so GW to not see that the Wych box is an excellent seller because Dark Elf players are buying it and converting them to square bases to be Wych Elves at at 50% discount.
They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?
perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.
really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.
They got a bit more expensive, lost half an attack on average, and gained 5+ FNP from the start, possibly getting 4+ FNP if near a Chronos. Later in the game they also get fearless and furious charge.
They did get more expensive and on average lose attacks?
perhaps GW is just nerfing them because they have heard a lot of MCs are OP comments.
really hope they get something to increase their movement, but as you say it is unlikely.
They got a bit more expensive, lost half an attack on average, and gained 5+ FNP from the start, possibly getting 4+ FNP if near a Chronos. Later in the game they also get fearless and furious charge.
they already had fearless, and rumors said they don't have PfP actually.
mercury14 wrote: Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).
I remember that thread. I still get a chuckle out of the C: Eldar doomsaying.
mercury14 wrote: Oh man... the people moaning about Guardians, how bad Wraithknights were, Warlocks are useless, Wave Serpents got nerfed (yes people said that!).
I remember that thread. I still get a chuckle out of the C: Eldar doomsaying.
*All* Eldar troops suck!
Wave Serpents are nerfed! I want my energy fields back!
War Walkers getting 5++ and battle focus means they suck!
Battle focus - who cares?
Windriders can't kill anything!
Farseers suck because they have to roll for Fortune!
Sorry to jump back 3 pages - but I really like the new Archon model!
The crossed arms looks dumb - like hes being laid to rest by the Tomb Kings - but some of the images in the "What's New Today" show the model with his arms done differently and he just looks so damn arrogant! It's perfect All straight and proper like "You better be pleased that someone like me is going to end the life of someone like you"
Personally, I think it works - although the more dynamic posses in the Haem and Succubus looks great too
I'm itching for more details. A lot of what I'm seeing here is stuff I like. Units of Talos/Cronos. Fast Attack Fighters, Detachment with increased Fast Attack, Beast Packs composed of just the big scaries, Deep Striking Transports, Webway Portals being non-scatter deepstrike. Overall I'm liking the sound of this. It'll play different than my other factions. Just need details!!!!!!
orks get stormboyz for 9 pts and do pretty much everything a reaver does except probably get into assault faster.
of course that's a different codex...regardless
Reavers were taken solely for bladevaning before, they didn't gain HoW, they already had HoW so the only difference is their HoW now has rending set str 4, or hits d6 times at set strength 6 with rending if they have caltrops.
Talos and Chronos both went up in cost 20 pts each, thats a 25% increase for a chronos, and 20% points increased for a talos. hope whatever they got was worth it, chances are it is FnP, which they had access to after getting a pain token before anyways...
Incubi dropped in cost, but they are now less worth taking as there is no way to give this assault unit any type of assault grenades with the reported changes to PGL, so they might as well have halved their cost because it doesn't matter. T3 models striking last is not good.
Wyches remained unchanged in cost, wych weapons have reportedly been made worse, not that anyone took them before. Haywire gone. Will be interesting to see if they gained -any- special rules to make them worth taking now, like dodge works versus overwatch or something.
Hellions dropped in cost by 3 and lost access to grenades due to PGL change, great more T3 models in assault striking last but with worse armor than incubi, they should be equally amazing.
Kabalites dropped by 1 point, this is good.
mandrakes dropped by 3 points and gained a fair amount of buffs it seems, mainly baleblast at start which is what would make them fieldable. Still not great, but they are viable now.
voidraven- the new kit! Rumor has it now costs +15 pts more than the old kit and lost AV 11 on front and sides to now AV10. NICE! If they are viable will be based on if they still have to pay for missiles ontop of everything, and if they gained any special rules they didn't already have, chances are no.
Scourge seem to have made out, looks like rules are the same, can now take 4/5 weapons instead of 2/5 and dropped in cost from 22 to 16.
At first glance it seems like Dark Eldar armies will be mostly Kabalite warriors in raiders with splinter racks with lots of scourges now, will probably still see ravagers as the goto heavy support slot.
I think the only possible saving grace for many units will be if they have some kind of unit special rule, or there are some squad leader wargear options we have not been privy to as of yet that make them viable still, otherwise it seems like most things became worse in quality for points than before, especially for any assault elements.
Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.
A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.
Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.
mercury14 wrote: Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.
A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.
Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.
The FnP is good, but not huge. It now gives protection from turn 2 on for your whole army versus small arms fire, and specials/heavy weapons that are not str6 plus. So pretty much just flamers as most heavy/specials people take are str6+.
It will slightly mitigate the damage from open topped vehicles being hit by flamers, as in 1/3rd of the models that died before will live on average.
The issue is the new PFP is also a big nerf.
Before we could stick a Haem with a unit to give it FnP turn 1 to protect it somewhat from fire/exploding vehicles, from the current rumors it appears we can no longer do this and will expect firing on our units first turn to net more casualties in competitive play at least where we will see lots of shooting armies having access to ignores cover.
So just to confirm what I seem to be reading, but...
A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?
Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?
mercury14 wrote: Now almost all DE units get FNP just for not dying turn one. How is nobody factoring this in? Wyches that assault turn 2-3 are harder to kill and don't get killed in vehicle explosions as much.
A Wych with a 4++ in CC followed up with FNP is formidable, especially when drugs so something like give them T4 for their FNP, or hit on 3+.
Now against shooting Wyches can get (hopefully a 5+ cover save) and FNP. A Wych or a Kabalite in ruins who GTG get a 3+ then FNP. That's a huge buff. Huge. And Kabalites are cheaper for it too.
but it is 6+ on turn 2 and 5+ on turn 3 and later
when the 5th codex hit, it was 4+
In the last codex Wyches rarely got any FNP. Now they get it for just surviving a turn.
Now Wyches get a change to not die when taking wounds from assaulting into flamers.
A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?
Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?
Remember all 9 Reavers would have to make B2B contact with the squad to generate all those HOW hits, so depending on how the opposing squad is positioned and what you roll for assault you might not get the full 9D6.
Although into a green tide squad...
So yeah, ideal scenario of spread out 30 man Ork squad versus spread out 9 man Reaver Squad with Caltrops.
Reavers get the charge, we'll ignore Overwatch. (Really shouldn't but I just want to do the basic math)
*WARNING bad math follows*
Out of 9D6 we'll say roughly 30 hits.
S6 so wounds on a 2.
6 fail to wound,
6 rend.
24 wounds in total.
3 out of the 18 AP- wounds are saved.
21 dead Orks
It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?
Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?
It would annihilate them most of the time.
Can EACH reaver take caltrops, though? And if so, what would that unit cost?
A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?
Anyone Want to run the math on that against a Tac squad or terminator squad?
Remember all 9 Reavers would have to make B2B contact with the squad to generate all those HOW hits, so depending on how the opposing squad is positioned and what you roll for assault you might not get the full 9D6.
Although into a green tide squad...
My pitiful attempt at math: assuming all 9 in b2b, an average of 31.5 hits, 26.46 wounds, 5.04 of which are rending wounds. That seems pretty good.
Edit: I just got ninja'd into oblivion. It would be super crazy if you could purchase caltrops for everyone. Where is the S6 thing coming from then?
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
I don't think they have grenades.
Isn't Hammer of Wrath always resolved at I10? So while the Reavers would attack at I1 their HOW would still trigger before the Marines.
Ah it makes much more sense that Caltrops would be per 3 models. Either that or hilariously expensive.
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
I don't think they have grenades.
It doesn't matter really. Five (minus however many got killed on I10) Tac marines won't kill many Reavers at all. Probably none, especially with FNP factoring in.
Nine (or let's say eight b/c or overwatch or a lucky Tac marine punch) Reavers who are NOT using combat drugs for a boost to WS, S, or +1A, are three attacks each. So 24 attacks, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1-2 more Tac marines dead. If there's an Arena champion with like a power sword or agonizer or combat drugs are factoring in, it's a massacre even if the Reavers go on initiative 1.
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad
Well we don't know the cost of Caltrops but if they stay 20pts, it'd be something like 220pts for a 10 man squad (maximum size in last codex) with 3 Caltrops
220 pts for 10 reavers with 3 caltrops if caltrops stay at 20pts(chances are they will), no squad leader upgrade.
they will probably also get shot at 1-2 turns before making assault in addition to overwatch shooting...
assume 10 man tac squad with flamer/ heavy bolter on planet bowling ball versus reavers with scenario benefiting reavers mostly.
reavers move up, tac marines decide not to move back and shoot but move up a6nd shoot, flamer out of range. 6/4 of squad is in rapid fire range, so total of 14 bolter shots, 3 snap shotting heavy bolter shots. average hits is 9 bolter hits, at toughness 4 we will round down and say 4 wounds, reavers save half and lose 2 models.
Reavers charge, overwatch does d3 flamers hits(we will say 2) 1 heavy bolter hit, 2 normal bolter hits. average wounds = 3 wounds, 1 model dies, so reavers now down to 6 models, we will say they still have 3 caltrops. cause 10 str 6 hits on HoW and 3 str 4 hits, 2 str 4 hits wound, 8 str 6 hits wound, 1 of these ignores armor. so 1 tac marine dies, 7 more have to make saves, killing 2 more.
now we have a protacted assault phase where 7 tac marines are facing off against 6 reavers, for the cost chances are tac marines have vet sgt upgrade with power fist.
not going to bother to post math, but if tac marines aren't in cover remaining reavers strike first in assault doing on average .6 wounds, and tac marines strike back (sgt most likely has psword or pfist upgrade) causing 2.2 casualties.
reavers can attempt to Hit and Run but will have 3-4 models left which will be gunned down next turn.
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad
Well we don't know the cost of Caltrops but if they stay 20pts, it'd be something like 220pts for a 10 man squad (maximum size in last codex) with 3 Caltrops
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad
They're about the same given upgrades.
But it also doesn't matter because 9 reavers with caltrops will still beat 9 Tac Marines.
A reaver with caltrops will inflict D6 S6 rending HoW attacks, correct? So that means that a squad of 9 Reavers can inflict 9D6 S6 rending attacks, right?
Old caltrops were 1 caltrop per 3 reavers and cost 20 points. Expect them to stay 1 per 3, or even 1 per unit and to be 20 or more points(more than another reaver)
So it might be 9 reavers, with 3 caltrops, would be 6 str4 hits and 3d6 str6 hits.
9 reavers will kill 9 tac marines if the tac marines do not have any upgrades(ie they cost 40% less) and do not shoot the reavers at all before they assault. Given reavers are not making a first turn assault this is of course unlikely.
9 Tac marines that are plain (something you will probably never see on a table top) would still be able to get up to 3 rounds of shooting versus reavers depending on assault distance rolled,
ie 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving up rapid firing, then overwatch.
rapid fire for total of 4 casualties, overwatch for 1.5 casualties (will be nice and round to 1) so reavers now have 4 models from starting 5.
lets say all three caltrops survived, so average is rounded up to 2 rends, 1 str4 hit and 8 str6 hits, which is 2 casualties plus average 5.5 saves to be made, will round up to 6 saves to be made, average is 2 fails so 4 marine casualties.
we now have assault between 4 str3 WS4 T3 4+ save models and 5 str4 WS4 T4 3+ save models
averages show marines winning.
thats 9 unupgraded tac marines versus 9 upgraded reavers, or 136 pts versus 204 pts of dark eldar.
FWIW if the marine player had 1 less round of baiting the reavers, the results would be assault with 5 reavers versus 5 tac marines, still favoring the tac marines.
mercury14 wrote: It's highly doubtful that all Reavers could get Caltrops and I doubt you'd want to spend the points for it. If it's 1/3 like before Your 9-Reaver unit would have up to 3 caltrops and then 6 bladevanes. So 3D6+6 S4 rending auto-hits on I10.
- 17 hits on average and three of them rend. So three dead MEQ or about one dead Termi from just the rending
- Plus another half-dozen or so regular wounds = two more dead MEQ or another dead termi
Most of a Tac Marine squad would be dead on I10 before they could blink so I'm not sure why people are saying Reavers lose to Tacs. The Reavers can also kill stuff before assaulting with their shooting too.
Now calculate the cost of these Reavers vs. a tac squad
Well we don't know the cost of Caltrops but if they stay 20pts, it'd be something like 220pts for a 10 man squad (maximum size in last codex) with 3 Caltrops
Maximum size was nine, so 60+(16x9)= 204.
It was 10, there was just little point in taking the 10th man.
Also there is some huge dreaming in this thread about these HoW attacks. You need to make initial b2b contact, your probably going to hide your caltrops from shooting thus making them pointless. Otherwise my 5 man combat squads that usually run with a flamer or combi flamer will slow roast the caltrops on the way in with wall of flame.
I can see reavers as small maelstrom grabbers with a suicide heatlance but trying to make anything work as an assault unit in 7th is difficult before you even start considering single wound cheap models. Thats why I don't understand the surprise by most posters that wyches and hellions also are lack luster. If wyches were 7ppm they would still be a wasted slot option, and in order to make them killy in assault they would need a MASSIVE overhaul which would make them more expensive and thus still a dead option. 7th killed those units and I don't care how much dreaming people do, nothing in this release was going to make naked T3 assaulter good lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
blaktoof wrote: 9 reavers will kill 9 tac marines if the tac marines do not have any upgrades(ie they cost 40% less) and do not shoot the reavers at all before they assault. Given reavers are not making a first turn assault this is of course unlikely.
9 Tac marines that are plain (something you will probably never see on a table top) would still be able to get up to 3 rounds of shooting versus reavers depending on assault distance rolled,
ie 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving back shooting, 1 round moving up rapid firing, then overwatch.
rapid fire for total of 4 casualties, overwatch for 1.5 casualties (will be nice and round to 1) so reavers now have 4 models from starting 5.
lets say all three caltrops survived, so average is rounded up to 2 rends, 1 str4 hit and 8 str6 hits, which is 2 casualties plus average 5.5 saves to be made, will round up to 6 saves to be made, average is 2 fails so 4 marine casualties.
we now have assault between 4 str3 WS4 T3 4+ save models and 5 str4 WS4 T4 3+ save models
averages show marines winning.
thats 9 unupgraded tac marines versus 9 upgraded reavers, or 136 pts versus 204 pts of dark eldar.
FWIW if the marine player had 1 less round of baiting the reavers, the results would be assault with 5 reavers versus 5 tac marines, still favoring the tac marines.
These arguments are so futile. Reavers are eldar jetbikes and can be anywhere in a turn so more then likely a tac squad will get one turn plus overwatch. better question is whether you can jink from overwatch? Either way I think the FA slot will now have much better options. Heck even an empty venom is better point for point IMO. People arguing in favor of the HoW have clearly never tried to set up a charge with that rule in mind let alone relied on it. It really hard making b2b contact with each model on the initial charge especially with those awful jetbike bases.
I agree the above arguement is futile more or less, however ultimately the point is you are looking at -usually- at least1 round of shooting plus 1 round of overwatch before you try to get a charge off- which we both agree on.
I think we also see how silly it is to assume a 9 man tac squad as you pointed out two 5 man squads with flamer and combi flamer in each. Which ultimately results in more dead reavers than the example I posted.
the end result is HoW on reavers being improved, is no where nearly as competitive as bladevaning was before.
mercury14 wrote: Blak, that scenario is pretty meaningless since combats like that don't occur in isolation but in the context of a much larger battle.
then don't post nonsense like:
They're about the same given upgrades.
But it also doesn't matter because 9 reavers with caltrops will still beat 9 Tac Marines
.
if you don't want to talk about things in isolation.
You were referring to two isolated units that end up in CC together without one of the units being touched prior to the assault, which is enacting a non-existent isolated scenario...
mercury14 wrote: I was referring to those units in a CC together, not enacting a non-existent scenario where they're dueling from across the map....
To be fair you were in fact playing that same futile game, just in a much less thorough way. Units never just appear in CC.
I think we can agree Reavers are different and a bit worse, but also cheaper so it is more of a sideways movement in power. Now there is some reason for AT weapons on them at least. I think it is the other options in FA that invalidate them competitively. Still ace models at least
blaktoof wrote: You were referring to two isolated units that end up in CC together without one of the units being touched prior to the assault, which is enacting a non-existent isolated scenario...
You never see untouched units at like the top of turn two?
Wait, since DTs are going to be FA choices now, it's possible to stick a lone Archon in a Venom? Not that it makes much sense, but it's possible, right?
SarisKhan wrote: Wait, since DTs are going to be FA choices now, it's possible to stick a lone Archon in a Venom? Not that it makes much sense, but it's possible, right?
The new Archons pose is too static and awkward for my liking. The crafting and detailing is excellent, I'm not going to disagree on that point - but I certainly don't like the pose. Who stands bolt upright with their arms crossed so high? It's an entirely unnatural, awkward position that doesn't sit with the arrogant and confident (and therefore seeming relaxed pose) I have grown to expect from the artwork and previous Archon model - which I very much like.
I feel the same way about the new Haemonculus model - rather than the creepy versions previously provided, we now have this emo-esque, big footed drip of a character. Once again very detailed but lacking the sinister aspect seen previously in the models. I hate to say it, all I can see is this guy from spiderman 3
This aside, that new bomber looks beautiful and the bloodbrides look dynamic, attractive yet sinister - they hit the nail on the head there.
I only hope that the codex is good - as after tearing out both the Duke and the Lady (the two characters my army was based around) I'm frankly disinterested at the moment.
Someone on The Dark City has got their codex early and is answering questions. This is true, he took pictures and sent them to the mod to prove he has them.
I'm afraid to say most of the rumors were true, no buffs for Wyches and No Sky Boards or Bikes for our Archons. Yes, that means the hundreds of lovingly converting Barons are downgraded to Helliarchs :(
But not one to dwell on the sad side, he has found a hidden gem among the heep and i thought it might brighten your day somewhat. Grotesques now don't explode when left alone, they have a very similar statline but come with Rampage and a Flesh Gauntlet + Close Combat Weapon base! Yikes! The Flesh Gauntlet is S user Ap - Poison 4+ Lethal Dose, which causes instant death on the to wound roll of a 6. So 3 attacks base, +1 for 2 CC weapons + 1 for charging +D3 for Rampage + 1 for Rage means in the optimum situation each Grot is throwing out 9(!) Str 6 (Furious Charge) attacks EACH.
Same about the models though, although i could do with a new Talos and the spare parts + Rat Ogres could go a long way...
A member of the Dark City has the codex and has PM'd the mods with proof to confirm.
Talos are 1-3 in a unit.
Cronos the same but cant mix with Talos.
Kabalites are the same allthough PGL is as rumoured soulblight (no way of getting defensive grenades). 8 points and may take a raider even though a unit is 10+.
Razorwing is 130 points, may only take nightshields (which gives steath) and is a fast choice (not heavy). Its not a vector dancer :-( Dark Lances cost 5 more points each than a disintegrators.
Q: Can a unit champion for jetbikes get or take a power axe? any Power weapon?
A: Only power swords and Agonisers which is AP 3, poison (4+)
Q: What would the total cost of 5 scourges with 4 haywire guns cost?
A: 120
Q: Wyches... 2 attacks base or 1? (extra hand weapon and charge = 4 attacks each?)
A: 1 attack
Q: Do Kaivex (Exarch) Powers still exist?
A: No
Q: Did Ravagers lose Aerial Assault? Still AV11?
A: Yes and still AV11
Q: Is the Haemonculus (the small/cheap one 1 - 3 choice) gone and fully replaced by the ancient?
A: He is gone. Ancient is in.
Q: Are there any formations (like the Tyranid Dataslates or the Apoc book formations) in the book?
A: 1 formation
Q: Did the Lhamean keep her "give 2+ poison to archon" special rule?
A: No
Q: Did Talos get any new movement rules?
A: No
Q: Grotesques, same stats, points and options? Still blow up if not joined by an independent character?
A: Grotesques are the new hit, I think. Same stats but.... they do not blow up and they got Flesh gauntlets + ccw and Rampage. Nice!! Flesh Gauntlets: S as user, AP-, Lethal Dose, poison (4+).
Lethal Dose: 6 to wound gives ID.
Q: Are scourge rumours true, squads of 5 can take 4 heavy weapons?
A: Yes
Q: 6 fast attack slots?
A: In the "Realspace Raiders Detachment" can you get 6 fast choices, yes. Giving 5+ cover save to troops and 6+ cover save too all others units in the detachment int the first turn AND any turn with night fighting.
Q: can other units enter via webway portal once deepstriked in?
A: any unit the Archon/succubus/heamon that has it have joint and their transport. Thats DS without scattering.
Q: does webwat portal use same small blast template as before(really hope my webway portals get used!)
A: No blast.
Q: Transport capacity of vehicles the same?
A: Yes
Q: Can any if the HQs take a bike or sky board?
A: No and no
Q: are there still trueborn in there and can they still take the same weapons they did in the old dex
A: Yes and Yes.
Q: are mandrakes better?
A: Much better, stealth, shrouded and baleblast from start. Baleblast: assault 2, St 4. AP4, soulblaze
Q: what got nerfed in terms of units
A: Wyches are dead no buffs, no haywire, Dodge only in Fight subphase. Incubi cant get grenades.
Q: can venoms still take double splinter cannons?
A: Yes but can only get Grisly trophies and chain snares.... no shields. SUCKS!!
Q: what defenses did our vehicles get ?, with the removal of Flickerfields to everything other than venoms.
A: Night shields give stealth and the new detachment gives cover in the first turn.
Q: how much is a shadowfield now?/ who can take them
A: 4+ inv, 40 points, only archon
Q: What do WWP's do now? and how many points?
A: gives DS without scatter, 35 points, archon/succubus/ heamon can take it.
Q: Can the flyers take flickerfields?
A: No
Q: Do wyches have any chance to survive overwatch and raider explosion? or nothing has changed?
A: No change
Q: Which units have access to Haywire weapons?
A: only wych champion, succubus, archon
Q: Are Harlequins still in the book?
A: Only in fluff, no entry
Q: wait are the shadowfields now a 4+ invul?
A: No, sorry, I mixed it up. Clonefield is 4+ inv. Shadowfield is allmost the same. It works until the end of the phase inwhich you fail the 2+ inv.
I like the shadowfield shorting out at the end of the phase instead of immediately.
Also the dude on Dark City claims that there were no changes to the trueborn weapons options, meaning (I assume) that they can still take shardcarbines.
Q: Sorry for the barrage but this one's kinda huge.. are saying warriors went to min size 10? If so do they still unlock venoms?
A: 5 is the minimum size but you can buy a raider to a unit that is 10+ big.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And more still:
Q: Can an Archon have any AP2 weapon at all?
A: Not in Melee
Q: Which models can have a Venomblade?
A: Acothyst
Q: Are combat drugs an item that HQ's can buy from a list (like a Space marine captain can buy an Auspex), or is it directly bought within the entry? Can an Archon still buy it?
A: No drugs for archon
Q: Are Venoms and Raiders Fast Attacks as well as Dedicated Transports?
A: yes
3A
+ 1 charging
+1 two CCWs + D3 if they're outnumbered and can rampage (fairly likely)
And they ID on a 6.
S5 and poison (4+) means that against a T3/T4 target they get to use their strength and re-roll failed wounds, so they almost always wound T4 and get lots of ID chances due to the rerolls.
For 35 points.
And they no longer need a babysitter.
Oh and they can get furious charge to make them S6 on turn 4.
Q: How have Incubi been changed?
A: No, but no way of getting assault grenades
Q:Are their Klaives now unwieldy?
A: No
Q: And what bonusses does the Klaivex now give?
A: He has Rampage
Q: What does soulblight do?
A: Sorry, soulfright:
At the end of shooting phase, a unit that has been hit by a weapon with that rule must make a Ld test. units takes wound with no armour or cover save for each point the test is failed by. Doesn't Work on Fearless and ATSKNF.
Both PGL and TGL has that.
PGL: range 18", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
TGL: range 24", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
Q: Does Urien still offer a S6 upgrade to Grots?
A: No.
ClockworkZion wrote: Don't forget that Grotesques count as 3 models each (Extra Bulky) for determining Rampage.
Where does it say that? Rampage rule only mentions models, and to my knowledge any sorts of bulky only changes how many models can ride in a transport
I might be thinking of FW wrote some rules for Dorn now that I think about it. Sorry, was mixing up the more tightly written rules for less tightly written ones.
Q: How have Incubi been changed?
A: No, but no way of getting assault grenades
Q:Are their Klaives now unwieldy?
A: No
Q: And what bonusses does the Klaivex now give?
A: He has Rampage
Q: What does soulblight do?
A: Sorry, soulfright:
At the end of shooting phase, a unit that has been hit by a weapon with that rule must make a Ld test. units takes wound with no armour or cover save for each point the test is failed by. Doesn't Work on Fearless and ATSKNF.
Both PGL and TGL has that.
PGL: range 18", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
TGL: range 24", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
Q: Does Urien still offer a S6 upgrade to Grots?
A: No.
Q: Stats on the wracks and grotesques? Also, Do they get FnP stock or earlier than other units?
A: The same... they start with FNP and...
Talos and Chronos start with FNP as well. And Chronos Spirit Probe gives DE unit within 6" +1 to FNP to a maximum of 4+
Q: Any shooting weapon options for Archon, like Blasters, Shardcarbines etc...
A: Yes
Q: Can Succubus take relics?
A: Yes
Q: Is Archon armor save 5+ or 3+
A: 5+
Q: Do Warrior squads come with Sybarites free?
A: No
Q: I heard from somewhere that each of them [Grotesques] now have flesh gauntlets, and can be equipped with liquefiers each. Any confirmation?
A: Confirmed!
Q: I do wish witches got something, hopefully they are dirt cheap.
A: 10 points each
I'll be ducking off to class soon but when I get out I'll keep doing the roll ups.
Still kind of annoyed that the cool fear-gas grenades don't work against what seems like a full half the codexes. Not saying it's the worst thing ever, but still.
All missiles have the blast or Large blast rule. The void bomb is large blast now, Dark scythes that the voidraven can get instead of voidlances are 24", S 8, AP2, Blast, lance.
Could you detail Urien for us? Pt cost, stats, special rules, war gear?
So talos moving up with cronos have 4+ fnp? Would say a unit of 2 cronos give 4+ fnp to each other?
1. 140 points, Gnarlskin, CCW, Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, Lethal dose), Clone Field, FNP(4+), It will not Die, Night Vision, Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP), PfP, Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit). Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use.
2. No, it affect the chronos it self as well. So one Chronos with spitit probe has FNP 4+.
140 points
Gnarlskin
CCW Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, ID on a 6)
Clone Field, FNP(4+)
It will not Die
Night Vision
Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP),
PfF
Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit).
Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use
Haemi stat line plus T5
Scorpion wrote:Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
No armor save however will mean they get chewed up in assaults with t3. Just keep em out of assault until turn 3 I suppose lol.
Scorpion wrote:Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
No armor save however will mean they get chewed up in assaults with t3. Just keep em out of assault until turn 3 I suppose lol.
The lack of an armour save or Invuln sucks, but hiding until Turn 3 is normally a good tactic for a lot of different Infiltrators. Alternatively, they could be an excellent distraction unit like Nurglings - hiding on a distant objective all game, forcing your opponent to go deal with them.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
I think he means any armor that is greater than 12 is reduced to 12 for the purposes of resolving penetration.
Scorpion wrote:Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
No armor save however will mean they get chewed up in assaults with t3. Just keep em out of assault until turn 3 I suppose lol.
Mandrakes are still good in CC for their points. They're skirmishers for sure and don't want to fight like assault marines, but for 12 points... That's less cheap as hell.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
DE codex 3rd edition and the 3.5 edition
Yeah, I think CthuluIsSpy, myself and Red Corsair have your number. You're thinking of 12.
Scorpion wrote:Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
No armor save however will mean they get chewed up in assaults with t3. Just keep em out of assault until turn 3 I suppose lol.
Mandrakes are still good in CC for their points. They're skirmishers for sure and don't want to fight like assault marines, but for 12 points... That's less cheap as hell.
13ppm but yea I fully agree. I have to reiterate the dumbfoundedness I feel that they share a codice with 10ppm wyches though
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
DE codex 3rd edition and the 3.5 edition
Yeah, I think CthuluIsSpy, myself and Red Corsair have your number. You're thinking of 12.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
DE codex 3rd edition and the 3.5 edition
Yeah, I think CthuluIsSpy, myself and Red Corsair have your number. You're thinking of 12.
That Realspace Raid detachment grants 6 FA slots and gives all troops 5+ cover standing in the open and 6+ cover to non-troops. So run your wyches with that and when they have FNP and drugs they'll be just fine for 10 points.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
DE codex 3rd edition and the 3.5 edition
Yeah, I think CthuluIsSpy, myself and Red Corsair have your number. You're thinking of 12.
it was 11, i'll post a pic in a minute
Gotta find that sharpie first
not even, i just got to find where i put it. having over 100 codex's is a bit of a pain when trying to find stuff
mercury14 wrote: That Realspace Raid detachment grants 6 FA slots and gives all troops 5+ cover standing in the open and 6+ cover to non-troops. So run your wyches with that and when they have FNP and drugs they'll be just fine for 10 points.
Do what you must but they are far from good. ANY benefit you just suggested applies also to warriors in the same slot who are just flat better. they have better armor, better gear AND cost less.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: 100 Codexes? Have there even been a 100 codexes? I'm pretty sure there haven't.
pretre wrote: 100 Codexes? Have there even been a 100 codexes? I'm pretty sure there haven't.
multiple editions, dating back from second (this also includes the rule books, codex's that i've made; which there are only seven; and chapter approved books as well)
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: hm, all of this seems okay. but i think i'll be staying away from DE until they get their old lance rules back (I.E. all armor above 11 counts as 11)
When did lance ever do that?
DE codex 3rd edition and the 3.5 edition
Yeah, I think CthuluIsSpy, myself and Red Corsair have your number. You're thinking of 12.
it was 11, i'll post a pic in a minute
Gotta find that sharpie first
not even, i just got to find where i put it. having over 100 codex's is a bit of a pain when trying to find stuff
When you do find your codex, it's on page 14, middle column. That's the original 3rd ed, by the way, not the revamp.
Includes SoB, Witch Hunter and Blood Angel white dwarf updates, but the page I'm on doesnt seem to cover things like feral orks, kroot mercs, deathwatch etc
Looking through that is quite nostalgic. They were my first army in 40k. I'm liking the sound of some of the newest revelations too. wouldn't mind owning some of those Cephalyx to run double duty.
Wyches some how managed to get worse while remaining at the same points level.
Grotbomb is the new black.
Eldar can now actually field things like banshees and harlequins w/out getting laughed off the board.
- Eldar can now also Beta strike you off the board
Wyches some how managed to get worse while remaining at the same points level.
Grotbomb is the new black.
Eldar can now actually field things like banshees and harlequins w/out getting laughed off the board.
- Eldar can now also Beta strike you off the board
Anything else worth mentioning?
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been. Their Hekatrix can still get HW grenades though...
Reavers are better for their points IMO. Scourges are excellent. Urien Rakarth is a badass even without the supplement.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
I'm not jumping on the doom/gloom bandwagon here...only the removal of named HQ's is completely unforgivable... but what should I do with my 50 NoS wyches? Ha ha... Anyone use them for anything else?
The loss of haywire hurts, but Wyches aren't as bad as they're being made out. They still have plasma grenades, they get their dodge save and three weapons in 10 vs. 1 in 5 is better.
The only use I can see for wyches at the moment is the same use I originally picked them up for. 9 wyches, hekitrix with Agonizer, with Succubus with Agonizer and WWP in a Raider.
No scatter deep strike on the raider right on top of something that needs tying up and can be killed by AP3. The raider gives you a little protection, FNP if by chance it gets exploded. Then you move and charge in. Hekitrix eats a challenge, succubus goes to work and gets 9 2+ los saves.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
units of 3+ in the previous Codex
now no way to get Assault grenades?
no Blood Stone or Klaviex?
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been.
I agree about them not being vehicle klillers - but now they are also prettyl crap in H_t_H with relatively low WS despite the fluff
Even in Raiders now they can get flamed with "no escape"
Metalhed2434 wrote: I'm not jumping on the doom/gloom bandwagon here...only the removal of named HQ's is completely unforgivable... but what should I do with my 50 NoS wyches? Ha ha... Anyone use them for anything else?
Use GS and glow paint and make some mandrakes, make the balance lameahns?
Metalhed2434 wrote: I'm not jumping on the doom/gloom bandwagon here...only the removal of named HQ's is completely unforgivable... but what should I do with my 50 NoS wyches? Ha ha... Anyone use them for anything else?
Apparently they're good for some Fantasy Dark Elves
The loss of haywire hurts, but Wyches aren't as bad as they're being made out. They still have plasma grenades, they get their dodge save and three weapons in 10 vs. 1 in 5 is better.
Are conscripts great because they have frag grenades?
also 3 weapons in 10 isnt great when those weapons are terrible.
3 choices, each increases melee damage around 25% for 50% the cost of an additional wych. What a deal!
Metalhed2434 wrote: I'm not jumping on the doom/gloom bandwagon here...only the removal of named HQ's is completely unforgivable... but what should I do with my 50 NoS wyches? Ha ha... Anyone use them for anything else?
Use GS and glow paint and make some mandrakes, make the balance lameahns?
I think the areas that got buffed are great and all, but as predicted this moves dark eldar even further away from being an assault force and into shooting land.
Incubi with rampage is nice and all, but after overwatch and striking last against models in cover because no grenades how many of your 4 incubi do you think will be left? I am guessing 1 to 0.
Grot buff is nice, will be interesting to see if they still have options for an aberration and if it gets access to wargear. That they have rampage, 3 wounds and toughness 5 makes up for the lack of assault grenades.
really just shocked with the lack of assault grenades, given that they are considered free to orks/marines ie all the codexes so far in 7th.
mercury14 wrote:
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been. Their Hekatrix can still get HW grenades though...
Reavers are better for their points IMO. Scourges are excellent. Urien Rakarth is a badass even without the supplement.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
Most things are better in the codex.
Wyches are pretty pointless now, tbh. FNP doesn't save them, because warriors get it just as easily, are cheaper, can shoot (and benefit from racks), and have at least some chance of surviving a wrecked vehicle; all while only being slightly worse in HtH. And, correct me if I'm wrong- the rumors are coming fast, Wracks are identical except for Toughness (which is higher), and Initiative (which is slightly lower)? I'm not attempting to pick an intertubes fight here, I just honestly don't see what niche they fill that isn't done better in the book by another unit.
I know Venoms still have their 2 weapons but wonder if they have additional options.
Regardless, Deep Striking Fire Dragons and Deep Striking Wraithguard w/ D Scythes is pretty boss.
Not to mention the ability of an assault vehicle.
So a buff to Scorpions and other units needing it.
Also at around 70 points that's a great deal.
DS Fire Dragons and WG is going to be silly. The only issues WS spam had was the occasional high armor target, and that just got taken care of. The DE codex (if these rumors are accurate, and given only 3 days till drop I assume they are) has made possibly the best tournament list in the game even better. A real TFG army, but this is definitely going to be a thing.
Grotbomb is going to be fun though. Archon w/ WW portal, and some farseer/spiritseer support could be nasty.
Red Corsair wrote: I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first. I actually like the court more.
Is the bar here really going to be that a S10 AP2 gun can kill a 35-point model? Really?
I don't think they're hard-countered by wraithknights at all though. Two wraithcannons, one will probably miss. Then assuming a '1' is not rolled to wound, they might still get cover. And if an average of one Grot dies and the WK's shooting is done, so what? That seems not too bad for the DE player to me.
Auswin wrote: I don't think the Hydra gauntlets are that terrible. +1 attack and being two CC weapons gives 4 on the charge for that wych, with shred.
It's a 100% increase over a standard wych with better chance to wound.
The other two are underwhelming.
Yeap, Hydra gauntlets are the best and not bad at all.
5 Wyches, Hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix w/someweapon and haywire grenades, Venom. That's a tad over 100 pts and worth it IMO if your attack plan includes assault.
Here's more of what has come out info wise so far:
All missiles have the blast or Large blast rule.
The void bomb is large blast now,
Dark scythes that the voidraven can get instead of voidlances are 24", S 8, AP2, Blast, lance.
Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
Archon can buy his own Venom, and blasterborn can have venoms as well.
RE Archon: Cant get a Raider, only venom.
Q: Could you detail Urien for us? Pt cost, stats, special rules, war gear?
A: 140 points, Gnarlskin, CCW, Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, Lethal dose), Clone Field, FNP(4+), It will not Die, Night Vision, Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP), PfP, Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit). Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use.
Q: So talos moving up with cronos have 4+ fnp? Would say a unit of 2 cronos give 4+ fnp to each other?
A: No, it affect the chronos it self as well. So one Chronos with spitit probe has FNP 4+.
Q: Really liking the sound of grots though. Points stayed the same on them?
A: 35 points
Q: Can archon take a gun other than the blaster and relic?
A: Blast Pistol
Q: Also iirc urien's states were pretty good.. s5 t5 w5 right?
A: S3, T5, W3
Q: Do sslyths have the bulky rule?
A: No, just FnP and Fleet
Q: What is Raider capacity?
A: As before
Q: Can you take Warrior squad and IC in the same raider?
A: As before
Q: What about bloodbrides - what do they bring to the normal Wyches?
A: As before
Q: Who can take power lance?
A: No one, only Power Swords
Q: Do Razorwings comes with missiles?
A: As before
Q: So archon with court and lhaeman will make his agoniser 2+ poison ap3?
A: No, Lhamaean poison doesn't affect the archon.
Q: Scorpion, could you clarify if chronos has anything other than increasing FNP within 6"?
A: Nothing more. Same weapons as before. It starts with a spirit syphon and can buy spirit vortex and spirit vortex. Vortex ans syphon do the same as before.
Q: Whats your overall impressions army wide? Do we lost or do we gain via point costs and rules changes?
A: Thats one hell of a question. I havent played any 7th games yet so this is more a feeling than anything else.
We are going to see other units in play: Grots, Mandrakes, Scourges. Court.
I dont know if Venoms not having night shields is going to affect the Venom spam strategy.
Wyches are out, I cant see a use for them.
Beasts are NOT what they were. I think the WWP and DS Raiders, venoms and Ravengers are going to give us the suprise element in a game.
As Mushkilla mentioned in another post: its a new puzzle.
Q: Are Cronos still Monstrous Creatures?
A: Yes
Q: Do Lhamaeans still have their 2+ poisoned CCW?
A: Yes
Q:Also, is their cost the same?
A: 10 points
Q: Can I go with a Court full of Lhamaeans?
A: Yes, up to 12 of them
Q: Trueborn are min squadsize 5 correct? Are they otherwise unchanged?
A: Yes, they cost 11
Q: Are incubi also min squadsize 5?
A: 3
Q: Are splinter cannons more expensive for everything now? And what does the second cannon cost for the Venom?
A: 15 points, 10 points
Q: Do mandrakes have any non-cover-save save?
A: No
Q: What does a trilance Ravager cost?
A: 125. 110 with D.C. 5 points for each lance
Q: bloody hell thats ridiculous, so cout an be made up of 12 of any model?
A: Yes
Predictably, comments range between "RUINED FOREVER!" and "Is good". However, there seem to be some very reasonable people.
I'm going to take a more neutral approach. Sure, lots of asinine nerfs, but there are still things with which we can work. Come on, people, try to come up with new ways to play before you incinerate your minis.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
I do like Coven stuff, but I'm not 100% sure if I want to drop the Nids stuff I was looking at doing to do DE instead just yet.
SarisKhan wrote: Predictably, comments range between "RUINED FORVER!" and "Is good". However, there seem to be some reasonable people as well.
I'm going to take a more neutral approach. Sure, lots of asinine nerfs, but there are still things with which we can work. Come on, people, try to come up with new ways to play before you incinerate your minis.
So, why do you think that consciously acknowledging that Games Workshop overall screwed the pooch (again) on the codex is synonymous with giving up on the game and throwing yourself off a building?
I still play Dark Eldar, probably still will. That doesn't make it not a fact that all information we've seen thus far paints the codex as being another GW blunder, filled with unnecessary nerfs, inadequate buffs and removal of flavor.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
Spill the beans, brah. You can't dangle such tantalizing bait like that!
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
SarisKhan wrote: Predictably, comments range between "RUINED FORVER!" and "Is good". However, there seem to be some reasonable people as well.
I'm going to take a more neutral approach. Sure, lots of asinine nerfs, but there are still things with which we can work. Come on, people, try to come up with new ways to play before you incinerate your minis.
So, why do you think that consciously acknowledging that Games Workshop overall screwed the pooch (again) on the codex is synonymous with giving up on the game and throwing yourself off a building?
I still play Dark Eldar, probably still will. That doesn't make it not a fact that all information we've seen thus far paints the codex as being another GW blunder, filled with unnecessary nerfs, inadequate buffs and removal of flavor.
Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough. Several people literally wrote that they're going to give up and sell everything in a somewhat dramatic manner.
I'm just dumbfounded by some overreactions. It's still my opinion only, though, you're entitled to do whatever you want.
SarisKhan wrote: Predictably, comments range between "RUINED FORVER!" and "Is good". However, there seem to be some very reasonable people.
I'm going to take a more neutral approach. Sure, lots of asinine nerfs, but there are still things with which we can work. Come on, people, try to come up with new ways to play before you incinerate your minis.
Well, I think part of it is that some people are viewing the changes with their existing army in mind, and the big buffs seem to have been given to units that many players don't often field or even own.
This is of course the status quo for a GW codex release, but DE might be a more extreme example than most. I give you Scourges and Mandrakes.
SarisKhan wrote: Predictably, comments range between "RUINED FORVER!" and "Is good". However, there seem to be some very reasonable people.
I'm going to take a more neutral approach. Sure, lots of asinine nerfs, but there are still things with which we can work. Come on, people, try to come up with new ways to play before you incinerate your minis.
Well, I think part of it is that some people are viewing the changes with their existing army in mind, and the big buffs seem to have been given to units that many players don't often field or even own.
This is of course the status quo for a GW codex release, but DE might be a more extreme example than most. I give you Scourges and Mandrakes.
The reason no one owned them is because of how underwhelming they were, so for them to get buffed is a given honestly. If people are honestly upset that underwhelming units got better then I can't fathom why. It's not like good units needed to be buffed.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
i totally saw this coming once all the coven buffs were being revealed.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
Dude...Teasing with that is just cruel...
But quite fitting for one who plays DE no?
Ha ha ha, right you are!!!
On another note, does anyone remember this rumor from back in August?
"Two items named "Dark Eldar: Covens" and "Dark Eldar: Wyches" for the same price as a 7th Ed Codex. Now I can't say with much certainty what these are, but based on their price and title, I think they might be supplements."
It would be cool to get a wyches supplement that put them on par...
mercury14 wrote:
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been. Their Hekatrix can still get HW grenades though...
Reavers are better for their points IMO. Scourges are excellent. Urien Rakarth is a badass even without the supplement.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
Most things are better in the codex.
Wyches are pretty pointless now, tbh. FNP doesn't save them, because warriors get it just as easily, are cheaper, can shoot (and benefit from racks), and have at least some chance of surviving a wrecked vehicle; all while only being slightly worse in HtH. And, correct me if I'm wrong- the rumors are coming fast, Wracks are identical except for Toughness (which is higher), and Initiative (which is slightly lower)? I'm not attempting to pick an intertubes fight here, I just honestly don't see what niche they fill that isn't done better in the book by another unit.
I know Venoms still have their 2 weapons but wonder if they have additional options.
Regardless, Deep Striking Fire Dragons and Deep Striking Wraithguard w/ D Scythes is pretty boss.
Not to mention the ability of an assault vehicle.
So a buff to Scorpions and other units needing it.
Also at around 70 points that's a great deal.
DS Fire Dragons and WG is going to be silly. The only issues WS spam had was the occasional high armor target, and that just got taken care of. The DE codex (if these rumors are accurate, and given only 3 days till drop I assume they are) has made possibly the best tournament list in the game even better. A real TFG army, but this is definitely going to be a thing.
Grotbomb is going to be fun though. Archon w/ WW portal, and some farseer/spiritseer support could be nasty.
So do we just count the new "Codex" as a supplement for the Eldar Codex?
Auswin wrote: Gang... the supplement rules are very, very fun.
I don't want to get anyone in trouble, so I'll wait until more have it in hand but the big change is to the PFP table and if you like coven stuff it's amazing.
mercury14 wrote:
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been. Their Hekatrix can still get HW grenades though...
Reavers are better for their points IMO. Scourges are excellent. Urien Rakarth is a badass even without the supplement.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
Most things are better in the codex.
Wyches are pretty pointless now, tbh. FNP doesn't save them, because warriors get it just as easily, are cheaper, can shoot (and benefit from racks), and have at least some chance of surviving a wrecked vehicle; all while only being slightly worse in HtH. And, correct me if I'm wrong- the rumors are coming fast, Wracks are identical except for Toughness (which is higher), and Initiative (which is slightly lower)?
Wyches are MUCH better than Warriors in CC.
+1 init +1 attack
4++ in CC Plasma Grenades(so they actually strike first)
Combat Drugs (rumored to be +1WS, +1Attack, +1S, +1T, +1init, +1Ld)
I dont contend that Wyches are better than Warriors, but they are signifigantly better in CC than warriors.
They might also be better than Wracks, who get +1 toughness and probably posioned weapons but no combat drugs, shooting attack, grenades, invuln save, and much lower init.
Overall none of them are particularly good in CC, or worth their expensive point cost though.
Earlier post said Archon only - they want as few Wyches on the battlefield as possible :(
Anyone heard if their is an elite pilot option for the DE Flyers like the Crimson Hunter Exarch - that would have been cool but so would have been Vector Dancing on the fighter - but hey too logical I guess
I guess you could run a Autarch with Incubi as he /she has plasma grenades
Any word if Lelith has def kept her Ignore Armour and any more details on her.
ClockworkZion wrote: Succubus can take Artefacts though, so it's not like there is no access to an improved save at all.
Ah that's interesting! I'm guessing that the succubus still retains her dodge save in close combat? So that's not that bad, just need a nice way to deliver her.
Any word if Lelith has def kept her Ignore Armour and any more details on her.
Lelith is -25 points and +1A, keeps ignore armor.
Edit: not sure of her ignoring armor or points actually, don't think that has been confirmed. Someone posted a screenshot yesterday of her profile though and she's +1A.
Red Corsair wrote: I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first.
Grotesques themselves ARE the thing killing Wraithknights. You have the order of who's afraid of who in that fight backwards.
Really? Wraithknight would strike first and Instant Death each Grotesque with it's Str 10, negating their FnP.
are Wraithknights Init 5 or do they somehow always stay in cover? I thought they were init 4. A unit of grots has a good chance to go simo with a wraithknight, who will miss with half of his attacks. Might kill several grots, but each grot is going to bring some pain. Lots of ID going around.
Has anyone got a link to a single post with all of these pieces of information in one place, as the first post here doesn't seem to be able to keep up.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: Has anyone got a link to a single post with all of these pieces of information in one place, as the first post here doesn't seem to be able to keep up.
Best I can offer is a roll up the stuff from Scorpion on The Dark City:
Talos are 1-3 in a unit.
Cronos the same but cant mix with Talos.
Kabalites are the same allthough PGL is as rumoured soulblight (no way of getting defensive grenades). 8 points and may take a raider even though a unit is 10+.
Razorwing is 130 points, may only take nightshields (which gives steath) and is a fast choice (not heavy). Its not a vector dancer :-( Dark Lances cost 5 more points each than a disintegrators.
Q: Can a unit champion for jetbikes get or take a power axe? any Power weapon?
A: Only power swords and Agonisers which is AP 3, poison (4+)
Q: What would the total cost of 5 scourges with 4 haywire guns cost?
A: 120
Q: Wyches... 2 attacks base or 1? (extra hand weapon and charge = 4 attacks each?)
A: 1 attack
Q: Do Kaivex (Exarch) Powers still exist?
A: No
Q: Did Ravagers lose Aerial Assault? Still AV11?
A: Yes and still AV11
Q: Is the Haemonculus (the small/cheap one 1 - 3 choice) gone and fully replaced by the ancient?
A: He is gone. Ancient is in.
Q: Are there any formations (like the Tyranid Dataslates or the Apoc book formations) in the book?
A: 1 formation
Q: Did the Lhamean keep her "give 2+ poison to archon" special rule?
A: No
Q: Did Talos get any new movement rules?
A: No
Q: Grotesques, same stats, points and options? Still blow up if not joined by an independent character?
A: Grotesques are the new hit, I think. Same stats but.... they do not blow up and they got Flesh gauntlets + ccw and Rampage. Nice!! Flesh Gauntlets: S as user, AP-, Lethal Dose, poison (4+).
Lethal Dose: 6 to wound gives ID.
Q: Are scourge rumours true, squads of 5 can take 4 heavy weapons?
A: Yes
Q: 6 fast attack slots?
A: In the "Realspace Raiders Detachment" can you get 6 fast choices, yes. Giving 5+ cover save to troops and 6+ cover save too all others units in the detachment int the first turn AND any turn with night fighting.
Q: can other units enter via webway portal once deepstriked in?
A: any unit the Archon/succubus/heamon that has it have joint and their transport. Thats DS without scattering.
Q: does webwat portal use same small blast template as before(really hope my webway portals get used!)
A: No blast.
Q: Transport capacity of vehicles the same?
A: Yes
Q: Can any if the HQs take a bike or sky board?
A: No and no
Q: are there still trueborn in there and can they still take the same weapons they did in the old dex
A: Yes and Yes.
Q: are mandrakes better?
A: Much better, stealth, shrouded and baleblast from start. Baleblast: assault 2, St 4. AP4, soulblaze
Q: what got nerfed in terms of units
A: Wyches are dead no buffs, no haywire, Dodge only in Fight subphase. Incubi cant get grenades.
Q: can venoms still take double splinter cannons?
A: Yes but can only get Grisly trophies and chain snares.... no shields. SUCKS!!
Q: what defenses did our vehicles get ?, with the removal of Flickerfields to everything other than venoms.
A: Night shields give stealth and the new detachment gives cover in the first turn.
Q: how much is a shadowfield now?/ who can take them
A:4+ inv, 40 points, only archon
Q: What do WWP's do now? and how many points?
A: gives DS without scatter, 35 points, archon/succubus/ heamon can take it.
Q: Can the flyers take flickerfields?
A: No
Q: Do wyches have any chance to survive overwatch and raider explosion? or nothing has changed?
A: No change
Q: Which units have access to Haywire weapons?
A: only wych champion, succubus, archon
Q: Are Harlequins still in the book?
A: Only in fluff, no entry
Q: wait are the shadowfields now a 4+ invul?
A: No, sorry, I mixed it up. Clonefield is 4+ inv. Shadowfield is allmost the same. It works until the end of the phase inwhich you fail the 2+ inv.
Q: Sorry for the barrage but this one's kinda huge.. are saying warriors went to min size 10? If so do they still unlock venoms?
A: 5 is the minimum size but you can buy a raider to a unit that is 10+ big.
Q: Can an Archon have any AP2 weapon at all?
A: Not in Melee
Q: Which models can have a Venomblade?
A: Acothyst
Q: Are combat drugs an item that HQ's can buy from a list (like a Space marine captain can buy an Auspex), or is it directly bought within the entry? Can an Archon still buy it?
A: No drugs for archon
Q: Are Venoms and Raiders Fast Attacks as well as Dedicated Transports?
A: yes
Q: How have Incubi been changed?
A: No, but no way of getting assault grenades
Q:Are their Klaives now unwieldy?
A: No
Q: And what bonusses does the Klaivex now give?
A: He has Rampage
Q: What does soulblight do?
A: Sorry, soulfright:
At the end of shooting phase, a unit that has been hit by a weapon with that rule must make a Ld test. units takes wound with no armour or cover save for each point the test is failed by. Doesn't Work on Fearless and ATSKNF.
Both PGL and TGL has that.
PGL: range 18", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
TGL: range 24", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
Q: Does Urien still offer a S6 upgrade to Grots?
A: No.
Q: Stats on the wracks and grotesques? Also, Do they get FnP stock or earlier than other units?
A: The same... they start with FNP and...
Talos and Chronos start with FNP as well. And Chronos Spirit Probe gives DE unit within 6" +1 to FNP to a maximum of 4+
Q: Any shooting weapon options for Archon, like Blasters, Shardcarbines etc...
A: Yes
Q: Can Succubus take relics?
A: Yes
Q: Is Archon armor save 5+ or 3+
A: 5+
Q: Do Warrior squads come with Sybarites free?
A: No
Q: I heard from somewhere that each of them [Grotesques] now have flesh gauntlets, and can be equipped with liquefiers each. Any confirmation?
A: Confirmed!
Q: I do wish witches got something, hopefully they are dirt cheap.
A: 10 points each
All missiles have the blast or Large blast rule.
The void bomb is large blast now,
Dark scythes that the voidraven can get instead of voidlances are 24", S 8, AP2, Blast, lance.
Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
Archon can buy his own Venom, and blasterborn can have venoms as well.
RE Archon: Cant get a Raider, only venom.
Q: Could you detail Urien for us? Pt cost, stats, special rules, war gear?
A: 140 points, Gnarlskin, CCW, Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, Lethal dose), Clone Field, FNP(4+), It will not Die, Night Vision, Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP), PfP, Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit). Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use.
Q: So talos moving up with cronos have 4+ fnp? Would say a unit of 2 cronos give 4+ fnp to each other?
A: No, it affect the chronos it self as well. So one Chronos with spitit probe has FNP 4+.
Q: Really liking the sound of grots though. Points stayed the same on them?
A: 35 points
Q: Can archon take a gun other than the blaster and relic?
A: Blast Pistol
Q: Also iirc urien's states were pretty good.. s5 t5 w5 right?
A: S3, T5, W3
Q: Do sslyths have the bulky rule?
A: No, just FnP and Fleet
Q: What is Raider capacity?
A: As before
Q: Can you take Warrior squad and IC in the same raider?
A: As before
Q: What about bloodbrides - what do they bring to the normal Wyches?
A: As before
Q: Who can take power lance?
A: No one, only Power Swords
Q: Do Razorwings comes with missiles?
A: As before
Q: So archon with court and lhaeman will make his agoniser 2+ poison ap3?
A: No, Lhamaean poison doesn't affect the archon.
Q: Scorpion, could you clarify if chronos has anything other than increasing FNP within 6"?
A: Nothing more. Same weapons as before. It starts with a spirit syphon and can buy spirit vortex and spirit vortex. Vortex ans syphon do the same as before.
Q: Whats your overall impressions army wide? Do we lost or do we gain via point costs and rules changes?
A: Thats one hell of a question. I havent played any 7th games yet so this is more a feeling than anything else.
We are going to see other units in play: Grots, Mandrakes, Scourges. Court.
I dont know if Venoms not having night shields is going to affect the Venom spam strategy.
Wyches are out, I cant see a use for them.
Beasts are NOT what they were. I think the WWP and DS Raiders, venoms and Ravengers are going to give us the suprise element in a game.
As Mushkilla mentioned in another post: its a new puzzle.
Q: Are Cronos still Monstrous Creatures?
A: Yes
Q: Do Lhamaeans still have their 2+ poisoned CCW?
A: Yes
Q:Also, is their cost the same?
A: 10 points
Q: Can I go with a Court full of Lhamaeans?
A: Yes, up to 12 of them
Q: Trueborn are min squadsize 5 correct? Are they otherwise unchanged?
A: Yes, they cost 11
Q: Are incubi also min squadsize 5?
A: 3
Q: Are splinter cannons more expensive for everything now? And what does the second cannon cost for the Venom?
A: 15 points, 10 points
Q: Do mandrakes have any non-cover-save save?
A: No
Q: What does a trilance Ravager cost?
A: 125. 110 with D.C. 5 points for each lance
Q: bloody hell thats ridiculous, so cout an be made up of 12 of any model?
A: Yes
mercury14 wrote:
Wyches are better now because they get FNP much more easily and combat drugs are slightly more useful. They're just no longer the best vehicle-killers in 40k which they never should have been. Their Hekatrix can still get HW grenades though...
Reavers are better for their points IMO. Scourges are excellent. Urien Rakarth is a badass even without the supplement.
Incubi are better. They're -2 points, can still be taken in groups as little as three, and their Klaivex gets rampage. That guy can get 4+D3 attacks on the charge, WS6, I6, AP2.
Most things are better in the codex.
Wyches are pretty pointless now, tbh. FNP doesn't save them, because warriors get it just as easily, are cheaper, can shoot (and benefit from racks), and have at least some chance of surviving a wrecked vehicle; all while only being slightly worse in HtH. And, correct me if I'm wrong- the rumors are coming fast, Wracks are identical except for Toughness (which is higher), and Initiative (which is slightly lower)?
Wyches are MUCH better than Warriors in CC.
+1 init +1 attack
4++ in CC Plasma Grenades(so they actually strike first)
Combat Drugs (rumored to be +1WS, +1Attack, +1S, +1T, +1init, +1Ld)
I dont contend that Wyches are better than Warriors, but they are signifigantly better in CC than warriors.
They might also be better than Wracks, who get +1 toughness and probably posioned weapons but no combat drugs, shooting attack, grenades, invuln save, and much lower init.
Overall none of them are particularly good in CC, or worth their expensive point cost though.
Was going to debate that the Initiative boost doesn't matter (I5 goes after very little) and that the rest aren't a great deal considering being 25% more expensive.
But I honestly didn't put that much effort into the initial post, because it's a moot point. Wyches could be twice as good as warriors in CC, it wouldn't matter. Wyches cost more, are viable against fewer targets, and are not at all significantly better/as good against their intended target than warriors. They will be joining Howling Banshees on shelves to collect dust.
Red Corsair wrote: I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first. I actually like the court more.
Is the bar here really going to be that a S10 AP2 gun can kill a 35-point model? Really?
I don't think they're hard-countered by wraithknights at all though. Two wraithcannons, one will probably miss. Then assuming a '1' is not rolled to wound, they might still get cover. And if an average of one Grot dies and the WK's shooting is done, so what? That seems not too bad for the DE player to me.
One wraith Knight with the obvious prescience he will get should shoot two dead, then Hammer of wraith ID another, then swing with 4 attacks at initiative five all ID'ing them.... Sorry but a Wraith Knight moves faster and is much cheaper then a decent sized grot unit and will absolutely hard counter them. Literally every attack they make ID the grots. Grots are cool, but someone mentioned them scaring away riptides and WK's which isn't true (not saying it was you).
Auswin wrote: I don't think the Hydra gauntlets are that terrible. +1 attack and being two CC weapons gives 4 on the charge for that wych, with shred.
It's a 100% increase over a standard wych with better chance to wound.
The other two are underwhelming.
Yeap, Hydra gauntlets are the best and not bad at all.
5 Wyches, Hydra gauntlets, Hekatrix w/someweapon and haywire grenades, Venom. That's a tad over 100 pts and worth it IMO if your attack plan includes assault.
Still worse in every phase compared to warriors who are cheaper, no reason to ever take wyches besides them looking sexy.
Amishprn86 wrote: So... Almost no Haywire, most costly DL's on vehicles ... how are we suppose to deal with vehicles and Knights?
No TL lances, No Haywire grenades and no Ignore cover... what are we a Supplement for Eldar now? Thats how I feel.
Dont get me wrong, Im going to keep playing DE and find a playable list or 2, but from the way it looks, I will have to Ally in Anti-Tank.
5 scourge with 4 haywire blasters is 120 points. That is 5 points less then 5 haywire wyches in a venom and goes to work turn 1 from a safe distance with the SAME effect. Thats your AT.
Amishprn86 wrote: So... Almost no Haywire, most costly DL's on vehicles ... how are we suppose to deal with vehicles and Knights?
No TL lances, No Haywire grenades and no Ignore cover... what are we a Supplement for Eldar now? Thats how I feel.
Dont get me wrong, Im going to keep playing DE and find a playable list or 2, but from the way it looks, I will have to Ally in Anti-Tank.
5 scourge with 4 haywire blasters is 120 points. That is 5 points less then 5 haywire wyches in a venom and goes to work turn 1 from a safe distance with the SAME effect. Thats your AT.
Yeah I forgot about them so 2 units for sure.... But they are kinda a 1 hit wonder, you get 1 good shot off then they will die. Batter make it count
Amishprn86 wrote: So... Almost no Haywire, most costly DL's on vehicles ... how are we suppose to deal with vehicles and Knights?
No TL lances, No Haywire grenades and no Ignore cover... what are we a Supplement for Eldar now? Thats how I feel.
Dont get me wrong, Im going to keep playing DE and find a playable list or 2, but from the way it looks, I will have to Ally in Anti-Tank.
5 scourge with 4 haywire blasters is 120 points. That is 5 points less then 5 haywire wyches in a venom and goes to work turn 1 from a safe distance with the SAME effect. Thats your AT.
Yeah I forgot about them so 2 units for sure.... But they are kinda a 1 hit wonder, you get 1 good shot off then they will die. Batter make it count
I agree but it's not like haywire wyches were any different and were way harder to use actually. Then consider the formation will let you take 6 of those units. thats only 720 points for 24 haywire shots or ~14 HP's a turn before cover. Thats insane.
Hollismason wrote: I didn't think Haywire worked on Knights, unless that was lances..
haywire worked on knights just fine. It was a fantastic way to bring them down.
Scourges are pretty good, if 4 with haywire blasters is indeed 120 points. You will obivously have to double up(or triple), or more to ensure the kill on a knight(gotta split the shield). But DSing within 24" is not hard. Nor is it nessisarily a suicide squad. Hell you might not even have to DS. Move 12" Shoot 24 gives you a pretty good threat range.
However, 3 slots of Scourges being mandatory.... I'm not so sure it's a great replacement for up to 6x HWG Wyches...
Court might be nice now, can we still get Wrack troops? I know they've written out all FOC changing rules since unbound was released. Because while Venoms are still definitely the best source of Splinter weaponry in the dex, night shields or not, it's pretty highly dependant on having units worth taking to bring them. E.g. Wyches suck, WArriors don't fit, Grots don't fit, I mean what other infantry is there? 3x Venom in the Elite slot might be all we get, which is a horrible nerf and basically makes the template for every single DE list begin with FA slots maxed with Scourge spam and Elite slots maxed with wrack spam, just so you are taking 6 of the most efficient units in the dex, and then ofc 2 min sized squads of Warriors, making the only slots really open for tweaking is the HQ and Heavy.
I don't know, just these changes seem like they might make this the most linear dex released by GW to date. And I'm saying that as someone who plays Tyranids. DE by nature requires spam, we are glass cannons, if you take 1 or 2 of everything, all you are doing is ensuring that the most threatening stuff dies first, you need to win a war of attrition. Making the spam so much more restrictive can only be a bad thing, great troops was what we thrived on.
Scourges are going to be amazing for what they bring, and the formation is just going to make them that much more popular.
And allying in (why wouldn't you?), you can DS Fire Dragons or WG on top of whatever you want.
If these rumors turn out to be relatively accurate, this is going to be one hell of a supplement for Eldar
@Shuppet: Think you're reading that wrong, Warriors can be min 5 man. I'm pretty sure there's a clarification burried that says the 10+ was in regards to Warriors being able to take a raider as a DT, even when they are over 10 models. Still have min 5 man squads available. Venom Spam will be alive and well, no fears.
However, 3 slots of Scourges being mandatory.... I'm not so sure it's a great replacement for up to 6x HWG Wyches...
I don't know, just these changes seem like they might make this the most linear dex released by GW to date. And I'm saying that as someone who plays Tyranids. DE by nature requires spam, we are glass cannons, if you take 1 or 2 of everything, all you are doing is ensuring that the most threatening stuff dies first, you need to win a war of attrition. Making the spam so much more restrictive can only be a bad thing, great troops was what we thrived on.
The problem with taking too many scourges, is what happens after you run out of meaningful armor to glance to death. You end up with 4 wound catchers for one guy with a shard carbine. At least they are fast, and by DE standards, durable.
Red Corsair wrote: I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first.
Grotesques themselves ARE the thing killing Wraithknights. You have the order of who's afraid of who in that fight backwards.
Really? Wraithknight would strike first and Instant Death each Grotesque with it's Str 10, negating their FnP.
are Wraithknights Init 5 or do they somehow always stay in cover? I thought they were init 4. A unit of grots has a good chance to go simo with a wraithknight, who will miss with half of his attacks. Might kill several grots, but each grot is going to bring some pain. Lots of ID going around.
Rough rule of thumb with most of the CE book is to take what you think is reasonable, then make it at least one notch better.
I'm not too worried about AV. Very few armies these days even pack massive armor saturation, sans MSU marines. I think that with a 12" move and 24 inch guns, a mere two min-sized Scourge units combining their fire will reliably point and click remove one vehicle a turn from the board. Keep them in cover, and I think most players won't expend the firepower nescesary to wipe them out so long as you've got plenty of Raiders filled with rape-train grotesques up in their grill.
Overall, it seems to me that scourges and grotesques are the stars of the codex right now. I don't think Reavers are salvageable unless their bladevanes are utterly ridiculous, something like D3 str6 rending HoW attacks per caltrop. Wyches got tervigon'd, warriors got a lateral shift, archons and succubi are tax for getting deep-striking stuff. Taloi... idk. They're my favorite unit in the codex, but the actual obstacle preventing them from fulfilling their role (lack of mobility) was not addressed at all. I'll probably take them in a squad of three and use them in a role similar to dakka-fex.
Still don't like ravagers. Three lances are only putting one glance on av12 per turn on average- that they're even more expensive is disgusting.
Need more info on the flyers before making a judgment call. Their armaments need to be reeeeeally good to justify 160 points on an av10 chassis, and a single ap2 small blast isn't going to cut it (though another part of me is glad that more ap2 large blasts aren't being added into the game).
One use I can sort of see with Wyches is that being a real troop choice they will get objective secured status. Add to the fact that they pose no real threat, they might not recieve much incoming fire, thus allowing them to capitalize on objective grabbing in Malestrom missions.
Units of Warriors will receive more incoming fire and be shot at because they actually pose a threat from medium range.
As for Reavers, since they have to now engage a unit to actually damage it, they should also be shooting said unit with their own weapons. So you have 6 splinter rifles and 3 blasters or heatlances as well to help them kill whatever they are going to charge into.
The old issue of putting guns on the models was that when using the old bladevein attack you never shot at anybody. Now you can at least put some of those gun upgrades to better use.
The new PfP mechanic is a big buff for Wyches. Hold them in a Raider in reserve.
People keep saying Wyches got nerfed, but the truth is Haywire Wyches got nerfed (or rather completely axed). Normal Wyches are definitely better then they were. Is it enough better? I'm not sure. But it's definitely better. The weapon options are more cost effective for what they do and the PfP mechanic is improved.
However, a couple of Raiders filled with girls in Reserve is definitely something that needs to be played around with. They can come in after the enemy has been softened up and, with AetherSales, get to pretty much any point on the board (to take advantage of terrain/get to important Maelstrom targets/etc).
ShadarLogoth wrote: The new PfP mechanic is a big buff for Wyches. Hold them in a Raider in reserve.
People keep saying Wyches got nerfed, but the truth is Haywire Wyches got nerfed (or rather completely axed). Normal Wyches are definitely better then they were. Is it enough better? I'm not sure. But it's definitely better. The weapon options are more cost effective for what they do and the PfP mechanic is improved.
However, a couple of Raiders filled with girls in Reserve is definitely something that needs to be played around with. They can come in after the enemy has been softened up and, with AetherSales, get to pretty much any point on the board (to take advantage of terrain/get to important Maelstrom targets/etc).
Warriors still do that job better though. DS or move on from reserve and shoot rather then wait a full turn so you can assault. You hit on 3's regardless unlike CC and you always wound on a 4+ as well, with racks its even more obvious.
I see your point, but they still stink, just a tad less is all. It would be a different story had they been the 8ppm option and warriors the 10. Sadly they are the more expensive, less durable option. I really don't understand how people keep defending wyches. I think a lot of stuff looks awesome, sadly wyches are just as lousy at assaults and lost the only gimmick that saw them play time; haywire grenades.
I am more optimistic now than I was when I first saw the rumors. Yet disappointed would still best express how I feel. A balanced and fun book chocked full of options, that only needed the most minor of updates, has had its soul ripped from it. It feels like Chaos Space Marines and Tyranids all over again. Sure you can still win, but its going to be gimmicky and predictable. The army has lost any sense of vibrancy and artistry. In its stead is a hollow shell. How ironic.
I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.
Add to it without vector dancer they aren't even that good at dog fighting as they can't take advantage of other flyers sometimes weak rear armor. The new SW stormfang/Stormwolf are miles ahead of these things in general utility and the Eldar Crimson Hunter is what these things should have started out with base and moved up from there.
Warriors still do that job better though. DS or move on from reserve and shoot rather then wait a full turn so you can assault. You hit on 3's regardless unlike CC and you always wound on a 4+ as well, with racks its even more obvious.
I see your point, but they still stink, just a tad less is all. It would be a different story had they been the 8ppm option and warriors the 10. Sadly they are the more expensive, less durable option. I really don't understand how people keep defending wyches. I think a lot of stuff looks awesome, sadly wyches are just as lousy at assaults and lost the only gimmick that saw them play time; haywire grenades.
Some people just like running Wyches, is definitely a big part of that, but another is they are a legitimate CC/tar-pitting threat that can score. Is that called for at all? Maybe, maybe not. But the do perform a specific role that isn't directly duplicated in the codex.
I've always been more drawn to a fast hitting CC force with my DE, so I'll at least experiment them in this regard.
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I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.
I think the new Bomber could easily make its points the turn it comes on the board.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: Has anyone got a link to a single post with all of these pieces of information in one place, as the first post here doesn't seem to be able to keep up.
Best I can offer is a roll up the stuff from Scorpion on The Dark City:
Talos are 1-3 in a unit.
Cronos the same but cant mix with Talos.
Kabalites are the same allthough PGL is as rumoured soulblight (no way of getting defensive grenades). 8 points and may take a raider even though a unit is 10+.
Razorwing is 130 points, may only take nightshields (which gives steath) and is a fast choice (not heavy). Its not a vector dancer :-( Dark Lances cost 5 more points each than a disintegrators.
Q: Can a unit champion for jetbikes get or take a power axe? any Power weapon?
A: Only power swords and Agonisers which is AP 3, poison (4+)
Q: What would the total cost of 5 scourges with 4 haywire guns cost?
A: 120
Q: Wyches... 2 attacks base or 1? (extra hand weapon and charge = 4 attacks each?)
A: 1 attack
Q: Do Kaivex (Exarch) Powers still exist?
A: No
Q: Did Ravagers lose Aerial Assault? Still AV11?
A: Yes and still AV11
Q: Is the Haemonculus (the small/cheap one 1 - 3 choice) gone and fully replaced by the ancient?
A: He is gone. Ancient is in.
Q: Are there any formations (like the Tyranid Dataslates or the Apoc book formations) in the book?
A: 1 formation
Q: Did the Lhamean keep her "give 2+ poison to archon" special rule?
A: No
Q: Did Talos get any new movement rules?
A: No
Q: Grotesques, same stats, points and options? Still blow up if not joined by an independent character?
A: Grotesques are the new hit, I think. Same stats but.... they do not blow up and they got Flesh gauntlets + ccw and Rampage. Nice!! Flesh Gauntlets: S as user, AP-, Lethal Dose, poison (4+).
Lethal Dose: 6 to wound gives ID.
Q: Are scourge rumours true, squads of 5 can take 4 heavy weapons?
A: Yes
Q: 6 fast attack slots?
A: In the "Realspace Raiders Detachment" can you get 6 fast choices, yes. Giving 5+ cover save to troops and 6+ cover save too all others units in the detachment int the first turn AND any turn with night fighting.
Q: can other units enter via webway portal once deepstriked in?
A: any unit the Archon/succubus/heamon that has it have joint and their transport. Thats DS without scattering.
Q: does webwat portal use same small blast template as before(really hope my webway portals get used!)
A: No blast.
Q: Transport capacity of vehicles the same?
A: Yes
Q: Can any if the HQs take a bike or sky board?
A: No and no
Q: are there still trueborn in there and can they still take the same weapons they did in the old dex
A: Yes and Yes.
Q: are mandrakes better?
A: Much better, stealth, shrouded and baleblast from start. Baleblast: assault 2, St 4. AP4, soulblaze
Q: what got nerfed in terms of units
A: Wyches are dead no buffs, no haywire, Dodge only in Fight subphase. Incubi cant get grenades.
Q: can venoms still take double splinter cannons?
A: Yes but can only get Grisly trophies and chain snares.... no shields. SUCKS!!
Q: what defenses did our vehicles get ?, with the removal of Flickerfields to everything other than venoms.
A: Night shields give stealth and the new detachment gives cover in the first turn.
Q: how much is a shadowfield now?/ who can take them
A:4+ inv, 40 points, only archon
Q: What do WWP's do now? and how many points?
A: gives DS without scatter, 35 points, archon/succubus/ heamon can take it.
Q: Can the flyers take flickerfields?
A: No
Q: Do wyches have any chance to survive overwatch and raider explosion? or nothing has changed?
A: No change
Q: Which units have access to Haywire weapons?
A: only wych champion, succubus, archon
Q: Are Harlequins still in the book?
A: Only in fluff, no entry
Q: wait are the shadowfields now a 4+ invul?
A: No, sorry, I mixed it up. Clonefield is 4+ inv. Shadowfield is allmost the same. It works until the end of the phase inwhich you fail the 2+ inv.
Q: Sorry for the barrage but this one's kinda huge.. are saying warriors went to min size 10? If so do they still unlock venoms?
A: 5 is the minimum size but you can buy a raider to a unit that is 10+ big.
Q: Can an Archon have any AP2 weapon at all?
A: Not in Melee
Q: Which models can have a Venomblade?
A: Acothyst
Q: Are combat drugs an item that HQ's can buy from a list (like a Space marine captain can buy an Auspex), or is it directly bought within the entry? Can an Archon still buy it?
A: No drugs for archon
Q: Are Venoms and Raiders Fast Attacks as well as Dedicated Transports?
A: yes
Q: How have Incubi been changed?
A: No, but no way of getting assault grenades
Q:Are their Klaives now unwieldy?
A: No
Q: And what bonusses does the Klaivex now give?
A: He has Rampage
Q: What does soulblight do?
A: Sorry, soulfright:
At the end of shooting phase, a unit that has been hit by a weapon with that rule must make a Ld test. units takes wound with no armour or cover save for each point the test is failed by. Doesn't Work on Fearless and ATSKNF.
Both PGL and TGL has that.
PGL: range 18", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
TGL: range 24", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
Q: Does Urien still offer a S6 upgrade to Grots?
A: No.
Q: Stats on the wracks and grotesques? Also, Do they get FnP stock or earlier than other units?
A: The same... they start with FNP and...
Talos and Chronos start with FNP as well. And Chronos Spirit Probe gives DE unit within 6" +1 to FNP to a maximum of 4+
Q: Any shooting weapon options for Archon, like Blasters, Shardcarbines etc...
A: Yes
Q: Can Succubus take relics?
A: Yes
Q: Is Archon armor save 5+ or 3+
A: 5+
Q: Do Warrior squads come with Sybarites free?
A: No
Q: I heard from somewhere that each of them [Grotesques] now have flesh gauntlets, and can be equipped with liquefiers each. Any confirmation?
A: Confirmed!
Q: I do wish witches got something, hopefully they are dirt cheap.
A: 10 points each
All missiles have the blast or Large blast rule.
The void bomb is large blast now,
Dark scythes that the voidraven can get instead of voidlances are 24", S 8, AP2, Blast, lance.
Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.
stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8
Archon can buy his own Venom, and blasterborn can have venoms as well.
RE Archon: Cant get a Raider, only venom.
Q: Could you detail Urien for us? Pt cost, stats, special rules, war gear?
A: 140 points, Gnarlskin, CCW, Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, Lethal dose), Clone Field, FNP(4+), It will not Die, Night Vision, Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP), PfP, Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit). Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use.
Q: So talos moving up with cronos have 4+ fnp? Would say a unit of 2 cronos give 4+ fnp to each other?
A: No, it affect the chronos it self as well. So one Chronos with spitit probe has FNP 4+.
Q: Really liking the sound of grots though. Points stayed the same on them?
A: 35 points
Q: Can archon take a gun other than the blaster and relic?
A: Blast Pistol
Q: Also iirc urien's states were pretty good.. s5 t5 w5 right?
A: S3, T5, W3
Q: Do sslyths have the bulky rule?
A: No, just FnP and Fleet
Q: What is Raider capacity?
A: As before
Q: Can you take Warrior squad and IC in the same raider?
A: As before
Q: What about bloodbrides - what do they bring to the normal Wyches?
A: As before
Q: Who can take power lance?
A: No one, only Power Swords
Q: Do Razorwings comes with missiles?
A: As before
Q: So archon with court and lhaeman will make his agoniser 2+ poison ap3?
A: No, Lhamaean poison doesn't affect the archon.
Q: Scorpion, could you clarify if chronos has anything other than increasing FNP within 6"?
A: Nothing more. Same weapons as before. It starts with a spirit syphon and can buy spirit vortex and spirit vortex. Vortex ans syphon do the same as before.
Q: Whats your overall impressions army wide? Do we lost or do we gain via point costs and rules changes?
A: Thats one hell of a question. I havent played any 7th games yet so this is more a feeling than anything else.
We are going to see other units in play: Grots, Mandrakes, Scourges. Court.
I dont know if Venoms not having night shields is going to affect the Venom spam strategy.
Wyches are out, I cant see a use for them.
Beasts are NOT what they were. I think the WWP and DS Raiders, venoms and Ravengers are going to give us the suprise element in a game.
As Mushkilla mentioned in another post: its a new puzzle.
Q: Are Cronos still Monstrous Creatures?
A: Yes
Q: Do Lhamaeans still have their 2+ poisoned CCW?
A: Yes
Q:Also, is their cost the same?
A: 10 points
Q: Can I go with a Court full of Lhamaeans?
A: Yes, up to 12 of them
Q: Trueborn are min squadsize 5 correct? Are they otherwise unchanged?
A: Yes, they cost 11
Q: Are incubi also min squadsize 5?
A: 3
Q: Are splinter cannons more expensive for everything now? And what does the second cannon cost for the Venom?
A: 15 points, 10 points
Q: Do mandrakes have any non-cover-save save?
A: No
Q: What does a trilance Ravager cost?
A: 125. 110 with D.C. 5 points for each lance
Q: bloody hell thats ridiculous, so cout an be made up of 12 of any model?
A: Yes
Q: medusae have the ap3 s4 eye burst?
A: Yes
I know a lot of people are concerned butility this to me is exactly what DE needed.
However, 3 slots of Scourges being mandatory.... I'm not so sure it's a great replacement for up to 6x HWG Wyches...
I don't know, just these changes seem like they might make this the most linear dex released by GW to date. And I'm saying that as someone who plays Tyranids. DE by nature requires spam, we are glass cannons, if you take 1 or 2 of everything, all you are doing is ensuring that the most threatening stuff dies first, you need to win a war of attrition. Making the spam so much more restrictive can only be a bad thing, great troops was what we thrived on.
The problem with taking too many scourges, is what happens after you run out of meaningful armor to glance to death. You end up with 4 wound catchers for one guy with a shard carbine. At least they are fast, and by DE standards, durable.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm not too worried about AV. Very few armies these days even pack massive armor saturation, sans MSU marines. I think that with a 12" move and 24 inch guns, a mere two min-sized Scourge units combining their fire will reliably point and click remove one vehicle a turn from the board. Keep them in cover, and I think most players won't expend the firepower nescesary to wipe them out so long as you've got plenty of Raiders filled with rape-train grotesques up in their grill.
Overall, it seems to me that scourges and grotesques are the stars of the codex right now. I don't think Reavers are salvageable unless their bladevanes are utterly ridiculous, something like D3 str6 rending HoW attacks per caltrop. Wyches got tervigon'd, warriors got a lateral shift, archons and succubi are tax for getting deep-striking stuff. Taloi... idk. They're my favorite unit in the codex, but the actual obstacle preventing them from fulfilling their role (lack of mobility) was not addressed at all. I'll probably take them in a squad of three and use them in a role similar to dakka-fex.
Still don't like ravagers. Three lances are only putting one glance on av12 per turn on average- that they're even more expensive is disgusting.
Need more info on the flyers before making a judgment call. Their armaments need to be reeeeeally good to justify 160 points on an av10 chassis, and a single ap2 small blast isn't going to cut it (though another part of me is glad that more ap2 large blasts aren't being added into the game).
my 2 cents:
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.
-Ravagers lost Aerial Assault -Archon can still wreck most marines with AP3
-Succubus has access to AP2
-Pay WWP tax for taloi?
-The best way to use the bomber has been determined to fire everything as soon as it comes on and expect it to crash and burn. Where massed poison doesn't work, try str8 ap 2!
-You forgot Mandrakes in cover -Scorpion had a list of the relics before a mod took it down and we can cause a -2 ld 12" bubble (helm of spite), and then another -2 ld from war gear or something i don't remember, Basically fething psykers, causing huge disturbances with urien granting fear to coven units, fear on mandrakes, maybe even allied swooping hawks blinding, then there's the PGL which has soulfright. The only counter is ATSKNF as scorpion specifically said all of our ld affecting gear doesn't affect them at all...
Final Note: with everything that I've said due to the new PfP, units needing to get up board and on the board, it seems like it'll be a good idea to get elder allies for reserve shenanigans so that literally everything is hitting your opponent at the same time. Fluff wise it makes me giddy just thinking about it. It makes me think of Longest Day (D-Day movie) where the German general looks out to sea and sees all the Allied ships and realizes instantly how fethed he is. Sure some will die from machine gun fire (wyches ) but by then it's already too late. AND he didn't know about the paratroopers.
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.
Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.
Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.
And can you jink as response to overwatch? I'm not so sure.
Power from pain seems really good. Grotesques and mandrakes also look very promising. Witches suck, but kabalite warriors at 8ppm? Yes please. Hesperax at 150 points with rampage, 4 attacks base, and 2 ccws means she can rock up to 9 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit and wound for dirt cheap. Ravagers are still good, the jet is fine, and the bomber packs a TON of firepower even though its fragile as hell.
I agree that the book has lost flavor, but it seems very powerful so far. Not saying DE fans have no reason to complain (you do) but in all its shaping up to be a strong book.
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.
Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.
And can you jink as response to overwatch? I'm not so sure.
If the rules are like that then we can look forward to Wraithguard in deep striking Raiders etc..
But this is just one DE transport for each ally detachment.
Choose wisely.
Or take the DE detachment to add to your Eldar force and get 6.
In tournaments such detachments may not be allowed.
Anyway, it sounds tempting to mount some Eldar units in Venoms and Raiders,
like Fire Dragons and Wraithguard.
I remember the old Harlie codex from Citadel Journal #39.
It may celebrate a revival as it can be implemented in some way by combining DE/Eldar/unbound.
I wonder why there are so many questions about court of the archon and grotesques yet none about the actual DE power unit.. beast packs. GW seems pretty intent on destroying CC and the changes to wyches and incubi further that goal.
Can someone clarify to me how the WWB item works? I was under the impression that it allowed whoever was carrying the WWP and their attached unit/transport to deep-strike without scatter?
Am I understanding it wrong? Do you get to pick any unit in your codex to DS without scatter for each WWP purchase? If so then yeah, deep-striking a squadron of Talos Engines would rock.
- - - -
I don't understand the hard-on for Wyches /w fnp ...t's a 6+ turn 2 and a 5+ turn 3 and onward. Why is that a big deal? All daemons have a stock 5++ save... are bloodletters renown for their durability? I mean, comparing Wyches to Bloodletters...
Both
- Are 10ppm. - Are T3. - Have one attack base. - 6'' move. - No grenades. - Can be taken in units of 20.
Wyches - Have a second attack from pistol/CCW - Initiative 5 - Have a 4++ in combat. - Can be in charge range by the bottom of turn 1 via raiders - Have a free 6+ fnp turn 2 and a free 5+fnp turn 3 onward, can be buffed to a maximum of 4+. - Become strength 4 on the charge for free turn 4(?). - Get rage for free turn 5(?).
Bloodletters - Are WS5 - Are strength 4 natively and strength 5 on the charge, from turn 1. - Are all AP3, stock. - Have a 5++ turn 1, which can be buffed to a 3++ or even a 2++ via grimoire and psyker shenanigans. - Can deepstrike in blobs of 20.
So... who's better?
The best Bloodletters can hope for is a turn 3 assault, via deepstrike. Wyches in a raider can assault turn 2! Buuut putting them in a Raider halves their unit size to 10, and with only T3 and a 6+ fnp to protect them, you're probably going to wait until that 5+ fnp kicks in before assaulting... which brings us back to a turn 3 charge. And, the only way you're getting 20 Wyches is by foot-slogging, in which case have fun not getting into assault rage until like turn 5. Advantage: Bloodletters.
30 Strength 3 (4 if on turn 4) AP- attacks hitting on 4's against most things in the game and at initiative 5 versus 40 strength 5 AP3 attacks hitting on 3's against most things in the game and at the same time as most things in the game. Advantage: Bloodletters.
A 4+invuln/3+fnp and no fearless for tarpitting versus a 5+invuln and daemonic instability. Wyches will take less wounds in combat than Bloodletters because of their saves and because they don't have a special rule that actively kills more of them whenever they lose a combat, but Bloodletters will realistically have a larger unit size, won't run away and can actually hurt most of the things it tries to tarpit (8 wounds on a carnifex on the charge, 4 wounds on a WK assuming the WK kills 5 of them before they can strike? Yes pls). Advantage: tie, slight nod to Bloodletters.
Mobility: Wyches can zip around in their Raiders and either fast-respond to a threat or make a last-turn objective grab, which bloodletters simply can not do. But what are the odds that your 10 T3 models in an av10 death-trap are going to live that long? And if you're jinking all game to keep the raider alive, it's not shooting. Advantage: Wyches
So, generally speaking and as best as one can tell in a vacuum, Bloodletters seem to be a much more useful unit than Wyches. Now, consider that the consensus surrounding Bloodletters is that they're one of the worse dedicated assault units in the game...
I respect whoever it was above who said that taking Wyches simply because you like Wyches is a good enough reason to take them- that's certainly why I would take them. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that they're actually competitive units or have a role that can't be performed better by other units in the codex, though. As noted, there's really not a whole lot Wyches can do that you can't do better with just warriors. Tarpit, maybe?
Kirasu wrote: I wonder why there are so many questions about court of the archon and grotesques yet none about the actual DE power unit.. beast packs. GW seems pretty intent on destroying CC and the changes to wyches and incubi further that goal.
Incubi are cheaper and have a better PfP mechanic. The only possible "nerf" is the lack of a PGL, which many people never took with them anyway. Assault grenades are incredibly overrated (they are good, don't get me wrong, but the notion that every single assault unit needs them is completely unfounded, as Wraiths, CCBs, TH/SS termies, and Dlords should have illuminated to people by now).
I don't understand the hard-on for Wyches /w fnp. I mean... it's a 6+ turn 2 and a 5+ turn 3 and onward. Why is that a big deal? All daemons have a stock 5++ save... are blood-letters renown for their durability?
It's not a hard on, it's simply stating this is a buff over what they had previously. You use to have to pay 50 points to get them any kind of FNP before they hit combat. Now you get it for free. Demons have always had their 5++ save, and have always been balanced around having that save. Now Wyches have something they simply did not have before, and a 33% increase in resiliency from Turn 3 could be quite significant (particularly if you are reserving them).
And that would be fine if that's as far as the observation went. Wyches have a 5+ fnp at turn 3, they didn't have that before. Okay, and the sky is blue, my skin is almond brown and this laptop is black. That's one thing.
The assertion (which has been frequently made in this thread) that Wyches are somehow competent at their intended role and may be competitive choices, on the other hand, is something else entirely.
The assertion (which has been frequently made in this thread) that Wyches are somehow competent at their intended role and may be competitive choices, on the other hand, is something else entirely.
So is the notion that they were so tragically falling short of that intended role that FNP couldn't help get them there...
Wyches were quite popular as CC units in 5th, as well as in 3rd. I6 CC units are pretty good. Overwatch and the explodes mechanisms of 6th/7th threw them a loop, and FNP directly helps them with the loop. It may not be enough, but I would say it's way to early to tell either way.
Haljin wrote: In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.
The parking Lot edition? I guess my meta was different, b.c It was common to have 2-3 5man units in venoms with Haywire Grenades.
But Razorwings were skimmers and had 2-3 of those starting on table too... I remeber the 1st time I faced against the New DE book. 3 Razorwings, 2-3 Raiders 2-3 venoms loads of bikes, it was so beautiful
ShadarLogoth wrote: So is the notion that they were so tragically falling short of that intended role that FNP couldn't help get them there...
Well alright then. I'll give it to you that Wyches are now better in the role that they're still terrible at.
It may not be enough, but I would say it's way to early to tell either way.
What's left to know? We know exactly what their stat-line is, exactly how much they cost, exactly what abilities they now have and exactly what equipment they have. If you can't make an accurate prediction now on how well 10 T3 models with 5++'s and no AP attacks or fearless are going to do in assault, you never will.
Haljin wrote: In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.
The parking Lot edition? I guess my meta was different, b.c It was common to have 2-3 5man units in venoms with Haywire Grenades.
But Razorwings were skimmers and had 2-3 of those starting on table too... I remeber the 1st time I faced against the New DE book. 3 Razorwings, 2-3 Raiders 2-3 venoms loads of bikes, it was so beautiful
But the small haywire-units were not CC units, but tank hunters. And in that role it is now simply impossible to use Wyches in, since they lost haywires. I actually used 10-man units for CC in 5th, but they never really did much.
Haljin wrote: In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.
Really? Dash's list was one of the most competitive lists around, and he always had a Raider full of them.
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Well alright then. I'll give it to you that Wyches are now better in the role that they're still terrible at.
Oh brother. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I suppose we are talking about CC here. Please explain to me how they are "terrible" at it.
I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death. With a bunch of blasterborn and blaster warriors to pop transports.
And I believe it was already explained several times, why wyches are terrible at doing anything significant, considering their points cost.
I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death.
Then you have limited exposure to the competitive lists at the time which substantially calls in to question the general statements you were making about said competitive lists. Many competitive lists had Wyches in 5th, your experience not with-standing.
And I believe it was already explained several times, why wyches are terrible at doing anything significant, considering their points cost.
Riveting. They are perfectly functional for their point cost once they are in CC. Their limitations have always been getting there, particularly with the aforementioned overwatch and explosion changes.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Oh brother. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I suppose we are talking about CC here. Please explain to me how they are "terrible" at it.
They're terrible at it because they're too fragile to realistically make it into combat without losing a few models first and once in assault they're AP- and wounding on 4's, 5's and 6's against most things in the game.
If you don't consider them to be terrible in melee, I'm curious to know what dedicated assault unit you would consider terrible.
I have no idea who Dash is, but the lists I've routinely seen had a lot of venoms and just poisoned everything to death.
Then you have limited exposure to the competitive lists at the time which substantially calls in to question the general statements you were making about said competitive lists. Many competitive lists had Wyches in 5th, your experience not with-standing.
Don't let the flag next to my profile fool you, that's just company's proxy. I am not American, I do not follow American competitive scene. Just because I do not know some local celebrity doesn't mean I haven't been in and seen competitive environments.
That's really irrelevant though. Wyches got a major nerf (haywire) and a buff (points and easier access to fnp). They haven't been used for CC in the current edition and they won't be. They're not utterly worthless, but there will be other things you can buy for the same points cost, that will simply perform much better.
They're terrible at it because they're too fragile to realistically make it into combat without losing a few models first and once in assault they're AP- and wounding on 4's, 5's and 6's against most things in the game.
Right, but they also strike before just about any other dedicated assault unit, have 4++ invulnerables, have combat drugs that almost always makes them better in assault, and are generally lead by a sergeant character they substantially ups their damage potential. They are nominally more of a tarpit then a hammer, but they excel as tarpits. They also have the speed and accessibility to clean up on units that want nothing to do with CC.
If you don't consider them to be terrible in melee, I'm curious to know what dedicated assault unit you would consider terrible.
Although I'm sure I could find some exceptions, I don't readily consider any dedicated assault units terrible at melee. Tau Warriors are terrible at melee. Putting any dedicated assault unit in the same category as Tau Warriors is completely asinine, and renders the word meaningless, in my opinion anyway.
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Don't let the flag next to my profile fool you, that's just company's proxy. I am not American, I do not follow American competitive scene. Just because I do not know some local celebrity doesn't mean I haven't been in and seen competitive environments.
I'm sure you have experience with competitive play. I'm merely pointing out that your experience is limited if you never saw Wyches used competitively in 5th. It happened. It was a thing.
They haven't been used for CC in the current edition and they won't be. They're not utterly worthless, but there will be other things you can buy for the same points cost, that will simply perform much better.
Cool. Seems like you have it all figured out.
I disagree. Or, rather, I see enough changes that they really needed (primarily the FNP bit) to give it a go. Like I said, they weren't that far off. They needed a little more resilience, and that's exactly what they got.
Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat
It's fun that I own almost all units in the range, except coven stuff, the bomber and the mandrakes. It's not hard to guess which units are the only ones to get better in the "update". From the units I have (all the rest), only scourges, warriors and incubi can be said to be better in the new book, and two of them are the same as before, just a bit cheaper...
Power level wise, the book is probably better than before, because the main "thing" i.e. venom spam doesn't change too much and some of the new stuff seems to be good. It doesn't confort much though as half of my models are next to worthless (i.e. Baron with 15 hellions, 9 reavers, 20 wyches)... Needless to say I won't be buying the new book.
jamopower wrote: Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat
Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.
jamopower wrote: Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat
It's fun that I own almost all units in the range, except coven stuff, the bomber and the mandrakes. It's not hard to guess which units are the only ones to get better in the "update". From the units I have (all the rest), only scourges, warriors and incubi can be said to be better in the new book, and two of them are the same as before, just a bit cheaper...
Power level wise, the book is probably better than before, because the main "thing" i.e. venom spam doesn't change too much and some of the new stuff seems to be good. It doesn't confort much though as half of my models are next to worthless (i.e. Baron with 15 hellions, 9 reavers, 20 wyches)... Needless to say I won't be buying the new book.
You could still field a massive Fast Attack and Troops slot with those lol. Would clog an opponent's advance quite substantially IMO.
I disagree. Or, rather, I see enough changes that they really needed (primarily the FNP bit) to give it a go. Like I said, they weren't that far off. They needed a little more resilience, and that's exactly what they got.
That's fine, I probably will try them a couple time, especially since I usually do not play in a competitive environment. We don't hate the wyches - I'd love to use mine more. I think we're all just hoping they would've gotten a bit more than they did. As it is now, the kabalites are not much worse in CC, but much more useful outside of it and cheaper to boot.
REAPER! is it the new ravager? If your talking about Vehicle killing
Let look at them Side by Side 1st
Ravager x3 DL = 125pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S8 ap2
Reaper = 135pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S7 ap3
Now lets look at a 3 Turn bases vs AV12 (I pick 12 b.c Eldar/Tau/IG)
Ravager (move 6" or less): 9 shots, at 67% chance. You get 6 hits, need 4's to glance and 5-6 to pen. Average you will take off 3 HP's
Reaper: 3 Shots, 2 hits, do to D3 it turns into 4 hits, need 2+'s to take off a HP. 3.87 Hp's removed (Did i do my math right there? I think I might be off a little bit)
If looking at a HP PoV, the Reaper for 10pts more is better at stripping them.
If your in a Heavy vehicle/Knight environment, you might wana think about the Reaper.
That's fine, I probably will try them a couple time, especially since I usually do not play in a competitive environment. We don't hate the wyches - I'd love to use mine more. I think we're all just hoping they would've gotten a bit more than they did. As it is now, the kabalites are not much worse in CC, but much more useful outside of it and cheaper to boot.
That's fair, although I really don't think Kabalites are anywhere close. Half the attacks, less initiative, no 4++, no combat drugs. Role 10 Kabs versus 8 Wyches against each other 10 times, I doubt the Kabs when once.
jamopower wrote: Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat
Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.
It makes them better when they are losing. I fail to see how it improves their CC capabilities
The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.
The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.
I tend to disagree there. I think it got better, honestly. I think toughness is superior to the free Paint Token as it stacks with further PfP mechanics. IE, you can now have T4 AND 5+ FNP. That's pretty awesome.
The I boost is pretty situational, although I do think its more useful then the run boost, which was almost worthless as the girls already have fleet.
Re-roll to wounds was better then the LD boost, I'll give you that, but that's not a completely awful trade-off.
The Toughness really does it for me that. It's a pretty helpful change.
The pain token stacked before as well. It helped them get furious charge easier. If you had succubus in a wych unit you gained the furious charge straight away. It also helped with characters (like duke) who had the drugs as it gave their full unit (of for example 20 3+ poisoning warriors) the feel no pain. But yes, the toughness boost is good, but still I always thought the pain token to be the best drug result as it helped my hellions and bikes so much.
Blaxican, Wyches still have plasma grenades (your analysis said they did not). Also factor in that plasma grenades can blow stuff up during shooting, especially if it's not wearing power armor.
People need to factor combat drugs into their analysis of Wyches and Reavers. I know it's a challenge because it's random and you might get hosed with 95% pointless I7 Wyches, but the rest of the buffs are meaningful for them. Even the +1ld one helps them tarpit better. A S4 Wych, WS5 Wych, or ones that throw 4 dice on the charge are worth 10 points IMO. A T4 wych becomes as durable as Wrack after a couple turns. Do I think they should have dropped one or even two ppm? Yeah because they lack their old utility. But 2/3 of the Drugs make them worth 10 points in my opinion.
Also factor in that we were paying 12 ppm before with haywire so they're "cheaper" now in some sense.
The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
I actually haven't played a single 7th edition game, but I can believe the rules help the dark eldar a bit. I've had games where half of my models die or run away on single turn as a collateral damage of the exploding vehicles...
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
Do you have any problems with the "no escape rule" for OT transports?
Jayden63 wrote: I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.
Add to it without vector dancer they aren't even that good at dog fighting as they can't take advantage of other flyers sometimes weak rear armor. The new SW stormfang/Stormwolf are miles ahead of these things in general utility and the Eldar Crimson Hunter is what these things should have started out with base and moved up from there.
yeah, the new "lance plasma cannon" isnt the greatest. 160 points for a one use bomb(riptide blast) and then 2 plasma cannons for the rest of the game.
or you could take the anti armor version and get 2 lascannons.
I am not seeing value. Even the nerfed vendetta is much better.
jamopower wrote: Yeah, having +1 Ld or iniative seven makes them always better at close combat
Actually, higher Ld means they are less likely to fail the inevitable Morale checks. This means they benefit significantly from the magic, I mean combat drugs 5/6 times.
It makes them better when they are losing. I fail to see how it improves their CC capabilities
The drugs got worse by losing two best results from the chart. Toughness boost is handy, Leadership is helpful and initiative is about as useful as the running boost with the current book.
yeah, reroll to hit was awesome
pain token provided a lot of survivability
these have been replaced with +1 toughness, a definite nerf
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Amishprn86 wrote: REAPER! is it the new ravager? If your talking about Vehicle killing
Let look at them Side by Side 1st
Ravager x3 DL = 125pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S8 ap2
Reaper = 135pts AV 11/11/10 Heavy Support S7 ap3
Now lets look at a 3 Turn bases vs AV12 (I pick 12 b.c Eldar/Tau/IG)
Ravager (move 6" or less): 9 shots, at 67% chance. You get 6 hits, need 4's to glance and 5-6 to pen. Average you will take off 3 HP's
Reaper: 3 Shots, 2 hits, do to D3 it turns into 4 hits, need 2+'s to take off a HP. 3.87 Hp's removed (Did i do my math right there? I think I might be off a little bit)
If looking at a HP PoV, the Reaper for 10pts more is better at stripping them.
If your in a Heavy vehicle/Knight environment, you might wana think about the Reaper.
The str7 can also strip hull points from low armor vehicles, even against AV12, it needs a 5-6
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock
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jamopower wrote: I actually haven't played a single 7th edition game, but I can believe the rules help the dark eldar a bit. I've had games where half of my models die or run away on single turn as a collateral damage of the exploding vehicles...
and now, if you make it to turn 5 your girls will no longer run!
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock
FLickerfields are still in?
Apparently only for Venoms - not sure if its still a 5+ invuln or now just a 5+ cover save
jamopower wrote: The problem with wyches for me has always been that there are maybe three of them left when the combat sub phase starts. After the explosion of their transport and few close by raiders and the overwatch. They could cost three points and they still woudn't achieve much
I run usually 4 Venoms full of Wyches when I run cult and seldom have that problem. Even with Haywire... People tend to focus on my Trueborn and HQ unit(s). The 7e vehicle damage chart really helped Wyches' survivability. And now if Venoms can 3+ jink that will help as well.
venoms cannot get nightshields anymore, so it's 4+ jink or 5++ stock
FLickerfields are still in?
Apparently only for Venoms - not sure if its still a 5+ invuln or now just a 5+ cover save
I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.
Zewrath wrote: I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.
Couldn't you count them as mandrakes? It's not like baleblast is exactly WYSIWYG, I'd say a wych pistol does the job.
Zewrath wrote: I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.
Wyches are nowhere near as bad as last codexes' mandrakes.
Zewrath wrote: I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.
Wyches are nowhere near as bad as last codexes' mandrakes.
Edit: Lelith looks good now
I'd argue that they are. There isn't any units in the codex that doesn't cover their role better or cheaper. There's literally nothing to justify their choice now, not even as troop tax as warriors covers that rule much, much better.
Zewrath wrote: I just realized something funny. Mandrakes where so terrible that they almost always counted "count as". They now switched that role with Wyches, because I don't know what else to use the Wych for, except for Lhammy "count as", which hilariously cost the same points.
Couldn't you count them as mandrakes? It's not like baleblast is exactly WYSIWYG, I'd say a wych pistol does the job.
All straight and proper like "You better be pleased that someone like me is going to end the life of someone like you"
- not sure if its still a 5+ invuln or now just a 5+ cover save
