ierp wrote: Hello, what is the general consensus - if there is one - on how to set up a repentia squad?
1) Rhino or not rhino?
2) If in rhino, should I take 8 repentia to put the repentia superrior and a priest in the rhino too?
3) By foot, should I play more than 9 to avoid geting her wiped out by the time they arrive in close range?
Thanks you in advance
If you ever plan to move forward rather than hide behind LOS blocking terrain ready to counter charge rhino. Then rhino for sure. And if you still haven't got rhino add rhino
Even with celestian and celestian with +1 inv they will get blown up. Mind you having those 2 nearby would still be useful. Rhino isn't invulnerable transport after all.
For 2 yes at least for priest. Repentia superior if you can afford her.
Grundz wrote: Bloody rose sisters finished top 5 again at a GT This time basically abandoning everything but bloody rose except for the canoness that guarantees the first turn charge
Grundz wrote: Bloody rose sisters finished top 5 again at a GT This time basically abandoning everything but bloody rose except for the canoness that guarantees the first turn charge
It appears that not all orders are equal.
I want to model mine as Golden Light, like the scene and I also have over a dozen pots of Retributor armour from an ebay deal. Golden Light are based on Order of our Martyred Lady so.
1. Do the six official follow up Orders Minoris fully follow their parent Order? So can I mix and match which doctrines they follow. The book says they can but it is unclear as to whether that applies to homebrew Orders Minoris or all Order Minoris.
2. Is they anything significantly wrong with following Martyred Lady doctrines anyway? I wont be using the special character which I would technically be able to take a 'copy' of, if I change doctrines.
3. If forced or encouraged to play Martyred Lady doctrines how should this effect my listbuilding? More plasma, more repentia etc?
Technically, if you play a Minor Order you are allowed to select the Order Conviction of your choice, but you do not gain access to the Order Warlord Trait, Stratagem, or Relic as you are not a member of that Order.
Consequentially, everyone just plays counts as order instead.
ierp wrote: Hello, what is the general consensus - if there is one - on how to set up a repentia squad?
1) Rhino or not rhino?
2) If in rhino, should I take 8 repentia to put the repentia superrior and a priest in the rhino too?
3) By foot, should I play more than 9 to avoid geting her wiped out by the time they arrive in close range?
Thanks you in advance
If you ever plan to move forward rather than hide behind LOS blocking terrain ready to counter charge rhino. Then rhino for sure. And if you still haven't got rhino add rhino
Even with celestian and celestian with +1 inv they will get blown up. Mind you having those 2 nearby would still be useful. Rhino isn't invulnerable transport after all.
For 2 yes at least for priest. Repentia superior if you can afford her.
For sisters Rhino has invuln its called Sororitas Rhino, and has Shield of faith. Thus has invuln Only vehicles that don't in sisters are pentengine/Mortifiers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In my games, We thought Geminies for Celestine were seperate unit since they have a different table. Are they a separate table or one with celestine?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
alextroy wrote: Technically, if you play a Minor Order you are allowed to select the Order Conviction of your choice, but you do not gain access to the Order Warlord Trait, Stratagem, or Relic as you are not a member of that Order.
Consequentially, everyone just plays counts as order instead.
Each Minor order is has their major order that they come from so, say if you play Order of the Ashen shrine, then you be doing sacred rose order. Since that is the order that they fall under. Each minor order fall under a corresponding order. That is how I would play it. I am planning on filling every detachment for every order and minor order. (There goes 8/9 years of my life!)
For sisters Rhino has invuln its called Sororitas Rhino, and has Shield of faith. Thus has invuln Only vehicles that don't in sisters are pentengine/Mortifiers.
Guess could have phrased better. They have invulnerable save but they aren't invulnerable aka never going to die. They are still just marginally tougher rhino's aka if enemy wants it dead they usually do get it dead. Ergo having celestine and another +1 inv save aura nearby isn't waste as you have quite decent chance of ending out of rhino anyway so the 4++ comes into play after all.
For sisters Rhino has invuln its called Sororitas Rhino, and has Shield of faith. Thus has invuln Only vehicles that don't in sisters are pentengine/Mortifiers.
Guess could have phrased better. They have invulnerable save but they aren't invulnerable aka never going to die. They are still just marginally tougher rhino's aka if enemy wants it dead they usually do get it dead. Ergo having celestine and another +1 inv save aura nearby isn't waste as you have quite decent chance of ending out of rhino anyway so the 4++ comes into play after all.
Ah yeah' junith or another canoness that has the warlord trait that allows you to do it. Then you have mericle dice. So if your rolls been suck and have a 4+. Now the hospitaller say it heals D3 wounds to a MODEL. Not infinity. Would that also mean you can repair the rhino. Thus it is a model.
As I’ve been playing with lists the last couple months I’ve come to a dichotomy of 2 builds, either go in all BR for the offensive buffs or go all in with VH mainly for their Ignore AP-2 bubbles and 6+++.
It’s really hard to fit in a solid offensive BR component (maybe battalion) and a solid VH component, mainly due to the number of support characters required to give buffs and auras. I also like to have around at least 12 CP at start so there is also that consideration.
My first lists were a Vanguard VH of 3 Exos / Canoness with a BR Brigade with Celestian bomb core and Zephyrim. It actually did well but considering how much AP-2 weaponry there is that I was getting chewed by I decided to skew back to VH.
Now I’m on the other spectrum with a VH brigade as a defensive core and 9 Mortifiers / 3 Seraphim units as my offensive element.
I’ve been surprised by the speed and offensive capabilities of the Mortifiers, their main drawback being their weak 4+ save and that they don’t benefit from any of the Order convictions. That said, they each have 2 Heavy Bolters shooting at BS3+ on a 56 pt package, have 15 attacks each at Str6 AP-2 (pen flails) and move 9” (shooting the HBs at BS3 due to making them “Assault” weapons). In addition they do have a built in 6+++ and due to having the Adepta Sororitas keyword can use strategems like Holy Rage and Desperate for Redemption. Unfortunately can’t use MD for the charge roll :(
I’m not 100% sold on them, but merging their strong offensive capability (at a cheaper cost to BR due to not needing character support) with the excellent defensive play of my VH Brigade has allowed me to kind of merge the two list capabilities into one.
I know a lot has been made of Zephyrim which are definitely a great unit but requiring some buffs to really make them a heavy hitter. My thoughts with Mortifiers is they can add their offensive capabilities T1 and are more so of a threat than Zephyrim.
Ten Mortifiers cost slightly more than 3 full units of Zephyrim, / 10 Mortifiers will put out 30 HB shots and 150 S6 attacks while 30 Zephyrim in BR without Missionary support puts out 90 Str 3 attacks and negligible shooting. Yes they can reroll wounds and can get to the shwerpunkt more consistently than Mortifiers, I just don’t think they contribute as much as Mortifiers.
I’d love to hear thoughts on which is more effective and if I should reconsider using Zephyrim rather than Mortifiers.
Celestine can give Adeptus Ministorum *units* a 6++, thus the Mortifiers can get a small boost from this if they are next to her.
Consider Flagellants. You can take the inquisitor that can cast a 5++ on an Imperium infantry unit. This makes them 6.5 points per wound with 5++, 5++ which makes them as cost effective as Plaguebearers.
I'm in the same boat as you thinking about mixed VH/BR, but am coming to the conclusion you can't take enough of either in mixed. Thus I'm leaning on full VH but with the non BR melee options.
Another thing to think about is the cheese "mixed" detachment that Ad-Mech have had to resort to. Forgo the "Forge World" benefit for the stratagems. For example a unit of Ebon Chalice flamers getting Auto 24 hits etc.
I've been juggling VH and BR like you, and also trying for Brigade + Battalion but often landing with Brigade + Vanguard or Outrider. My next experiments will be with Zephyrim simply on the price of entry... I'll convert the army box Seraphim and take them for a spin. Mortifiers are an investment for further down the road. Frankly, I like what I see from Zephyrim anecdotally and on paper... I have a game on the 22nd I'm trying to build them for. If I can do it, I'll run VH Brigade and BR Vanguard with Celestians, Seraphim, and Zephyrim, giving up the Battalion in favor of three Rhinos for squishy short range units.
For sisters Rhino has invuln its called Sororitas Rhino, and has Shield of faith. Thus has invuln Only vehicles that don't in sisters are pentengine/Mortifiers.
Guess could have phrased better. They have invulnerable save but they aren't invulnerable aka never going to die. They are still just marginally tougher rhino's aka if enemy wants it dead they usually do get it dead. Ergo having celestine and another +1 inv save aura nearby isn't waste as you have quite decent chance of ending out of rhino anyway so the 4++ comes into play after all.
nvm I was wrong. I didn't have my book on me till now. It says Adepta Sororotias INFANTRY models. So no Rhinos only get ++6. So nvm
Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart have been great. It brings the pain with great rapidity without the need of transports and I do like how that allows me more guns!
I'm totes willing to try the entirely Blooody Rose list but Im always a fan of finding great combos that other people aren't doing.
Plus who doesnt love seraphim and playing the flight of the Valkyries in ones head?
Question for whoever was doing the thing with Mortifiers:
What is making Mortifiers better than Penitent Engines? Neither get ORDER, and the Pengine is tougher [same save, toughness, wounds, but a 5+++ instead of a 6+++] and more accurate [4+ re-rolling is 75% accuracy vs 3+ is 66% accuracy] at the same cost. Do the Heavy Bolters over Heavy Flamers really make that difference?
What is making Mortifiers better than Penitent Engines? Neither get ORDER, and the Pengine is tougher [same save, toughness, wounds, but a 5+++ instead of a 6+++] and more accurate [4+ re-rolling is 75% accuracy vs 3+ is 66% accuracy] at the same cost. Do the Heavy Bolters over Heavy Flamers really make that difference?
Assault 3 heavy bolters are free, mw's when die, 2 extra mv when dies in melee and sororita keyword opens couple stratagems crucially advance and charge. So they are better suited for long range charges with threat range of 9 + 3d6 vs 7+2d6.
If you use more of countercharge penitents with flails have role
For record today in tournament game 1 it was pretty much wash either way. Literally both units would have done same thing either way. Game 2 the 5+++ might have helped bit more but apart from that it was 100% irrelevant which one I had as speed didn't come to play and even mortifiers with their lesser punch did it. Penitent would have just added some little extra safety. Third game and here the anchorite made big help with my absolutely RIDICULOUS dice rolling. 7 3+ save? No problem. Not single failure. Heavy bolters weren't that good. Heavy flamer would probably have been bit more use here on that. Speed was irrelevant and melee punch was sufficient so it was anchorite or 5+++. 3+ save was pretty good vs all those AP0 Dd3 shots it soaked up...
All in all surprisingly wash either way. Speed didn't matter especially since I was using them as counter chargers to deal with units that come close and punch wise everything they charged just died anyway so penitent hitting harder would have just reduced odds of bad luck bit.
Heavy bolters were used sometimes but at other times heavy flamers would have been better.
Anyone know if any rumors on when next batch of release is?
Iirc, on one of GW's facebook pages they commented that it'd be sometime this month.
Phew I am going to be dropping 1200 on sisters when it comes.
Yep march for all remaining. I suspect 2 weeks and with 3 Saturdayys for preorder(14, 21, 28) i suspect it's either pa6, sister sister or sister, pa6, sister.
Are Heroine in the Making or Open the Reliquaries limited in any way in terms of total use or use per detachment? Or can I just buy extra WTs and relics for 1CP each? Thanks, I'm away from my materials and doing some theoryhammer...
Relic no restrictions apart from your CP. Heroine in the making and extra tales for imagifier max 1. Imagifier thing I checked today as I was hoping for 2 imagifiers giving not just stoic but also deny rerolls vs grey knights well frankly stoic was pretty useless so should have just saved CP's and go for 2 deny rerolls...Either he was AP0 or AP1 or AP3 in melee anyway
MacPhail wrote: I've been juggling VH and BR like you, and also trying for Brigade + Battalion but often landing with Brigade + Vanguard or Outrider.
I havent assembled anything yet, because I am working on paper lists only at the moment. The idea being that I have to get it right first time, or buy lots of extra models for swap ins. I will end up with a mix of the two, have some swap ins anyway but get it mostly right, or at least something I am mostly happy with without having to buy too many extra models to do so.
That being said I am having trouble with paper lists. I am trying to fit allI want in 2k in Brigade detachment with no extras and having problems with squeeze. I don't know where to begin to do Brigade and Battalion. Note that from above I want my fieldable Brigade and my collection to near near enough one and the same, with only minimal swap arounds. This army is expensive and I must be cautious with my budgeting.
Noticed something I had missed before from triumph's rules as I got one yesterday. It's relic generates MD at the start of each turn. For some reason I thought it was same as beacon of faith generating only on your turn. Instead you get 1 on both your and opponents turn. And ensures you get 2 to begin with even if opponent gets first turn. And if you get 4+ for both means you even have 2 automatic inv save passing available if opponent goes first.
This could work on more casual enviroment we play here at.
Regarding the Triumph, it might also be worth noting that allied bullgryns can use their new strategem shield of flesh to subtract an additional 1 to hit rolls against it if they're nearby, for a total of -2. Pretty niche, but if you're hellbent on the Triumph surviving, it could help.
I would wait for FAQ on PA5 before buying any models. GW has funny habit of removing things like that in FAQ.
On already for sure things though if you have the terrain piece as well you are quaranteed 3 MD on your opponent's turn if he goes first. As long as 2 of them are 4+ you have in essence 2 auto pass inv save and ability to turn one 3 to 4 after rolling. That starts to make for rather survivable triumph I expect.
Plus the dialogus effect. BTW that's 1 dice per turn or one dice per act of faith you can modify up and down?
Has anyone noticed any affect from the various PA books on your opponents armies? Apart from the Marine FAQlol'ing all of the IH players all the "new" I have encountered is some tooled up GK lists that were relatively easy to shut down in the psychic phase.
I played two Tau lists last week but niether had embraced anything from their new PA stuff. Looking at the PA it seems like they got a lot though. I know the GSC upgrade was pretty disappointing and the Guard stuff seems pretty unremarkable.
Has anything PA related jumped up and bit anyone?
I'm still enjoying mech VH with a bit of EC and BR mixed in. The Marine FAQ has derailed a lot of the SM lists and in comparison to the pre FAQSM's. I have yet to see anything else all that hard to deal with.
dracpanzer wrote: Has anyone noticed any affect from the various PA books on your opponents armies? Apart from the Marine FAQlol'ing all of the IH players all the "new" I have encountered is some tooled up GK lists that were relatively easy to shut down in the psychic phase.
I played two Tau lists last week but niether had embraced anything from their new PA stuff. Looking at the PA it seems like they got a lot though. I know the GSC upgrade was pretty disappointing and the Guard stuff seems pretty unremarkable.
Has anything PA related jumped up and bit anyone?
I'm still enjoying mech VH with a bit of EC and BR mixed in. The Marine FAQ has derailed a lot of the SM lists and in comparison to the pre FAQSM's. I have yet to see anything else all that hard to deal with.
I've played 1k Sons in a super casual game (they were cult of time(?) and proxy-ing Scrab Terminators(?) to try them.) It was a weird/different game, but lots of fun.
I think Sisters are actually in the best position to ruin GKs day at the moment, the improved Smites and Inner Fire are manageable and most of their other stuff seems fair...
I ran into GK yesterday and in ITC kill based enviroment GK's aren't that bad. There's only so much you can stop seeing even with +3 you need average to roll 6 to deny his spells. Only so many 6's you can roll even with MD's(especially if you don't have imagifiers). And what I ran into issue is with sisters being often msu all those 2 wound smites were knocking off small units here and there giving him kill and kill more steadily.
Albeit wasn't helped that I forgot to use MD's for 6" charge with repentia which cost me them, Coteaz and missionary in short order plus hold more for 2 turns.
tneva82 wrote: Relic no restrictions apart from your CP. Heroine in the making and extra tales for imagifier max 1. Imagifier thing I checked today as I was hoping for 2 imagifiers giving not just stoic but also deny rerolls vs grey knights well frankly stoic was pretty useless so should have just saved CP's and go for 2 deny rerolls...Either he was AP0 or AP1 or AP3 in melee anyway
Thanks for the help, that got me moving on my next list. This one may be taking on enough of a lasting shape to roll with for a few games... VH Brigade + BR Vanguard. Sounds like Beacon of Faith + Indomitable Belief will continue. I'm going to try shifting Warlord to the VH Imagifier with Beacon and Book, and running the BR Imagifier as a Venerated Saint with Stoic & Warrior. Now I've got a to-do list for a dozen or so models I need to build, so I better get moving!
MacPhail wrote: I've been juggling VH and BR like you, and also trying for Brigade + Battalion but often landing with Brigade + Vanguard or Outrider.
I havent assembled anything yet, because I am working on paper lists only at the moment. The idea being that I have to get it right first time, or buy lots of extra models for swap ins. I will end up with a mix of the two, have some swap ins anyway but get it mostly right, or at least something I am mostly happy with without having to buy too many extra models to do so.
That being said I am having trouble with paper lists. I am trying to fit allI want in 2k in Brigade detachment with no extras and having problems with squeeze. I don't know where to begin to do Brigade and Battalion. Note that from above I want my fieldable Brigade and my collection to near near enough one and the same, with only minimal swap arounds. This army is expensive and I must be cautious with my budgeting.
Yeah, that would be tough to plan without playing. I have twenty+ years of collecting to fall back on, around 3500 points, so I'm mostly wrangling with new stuff. My buy-and-build strategy mostly goes Zephyrim, Repentia, Arcos, and then maybe some new walkers. I have nearly all the infantry I need, but I'm thinking about doing the 32mm base upgrade with those little MDF split rings.
dracpanzer wrote:Has anyone noticed any affect from the various PA books on your opponents armies? Apart from the Marine FAQlol'ing all of the IH players all the "new" I have encountered is some tooled up GK lists that were relatively easy to shut down in the psychic phase.
I played two Tau lists last week but niether had embraced anything from their new PA stuff. Looking at the PA it seems like they got a lot though. I know the GSC upgrade was pretty disappointing and the Guard stuff seems pretty unremarkable.
Has anything PA related jumped up and bit anyone?
I'm still enjoying mech VH with a bit of EC and BR mixed in. The Marine FAQ has derailed a lot of the SM lists and in comparison to the pre FAQSM's. I have yet to see anything else all that hard to deal with.
Oh yeah, definitely. Most of my Chaos friends are using Faith and Fury stratagems all the time, and Guard players are using Tank Aces and custom regiments fairly liberally. Custom Regiment "Gunnery Experts & Disciplined Marksmen" is very popular, since the good Guard REGIMENT orders and stratagems were paired with bad regiment traits anyway.
I am using the Ritual of the Damned in all my Grey Knight lists, too.
tneva82 wrote: Noticed something I had missed before from triumph's rules as I got one yesterday. It's relic generates MD at the start of each turn. For some reason I thought it was same as beacon of faith generating only on your turn. Instead you get 1 on both your and opponents turn. And ensures you get 2 to begin with even if opponent gets first turn. And if you get 4+ for both means you even have 2 automatic inv save passing available if opponent goes first.
This could work on more casual enviroment we play here at.
if you get a 3+ you can turn them into auto saves, because it can also make the dice +1
Ive played the first game with triumph, in a casual environment it is pretty fun. It was able to tie up a whole squad of terminators that I managed to string out between a squad of sisters and triumph so they couldn't bring their weapons to bear
-2 to hit on the power fists and two automatic saves was a pretty sweet deal.
I'm curious what these meched up VH lists look like, my local players are getting tired of getting land raiders one shot by exorcists
I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
I know it's not a real tactic and is extremely lucky, but I've one-shooted Land Raiders back in 5th Ed multiple times. Sure, each hit was a 1 in 36 chance of it happening, but there is no accounting for luck.
In 8th Edition, it would require a lot more luck to kill a LR with one salvo, even with 3d3 D6 damage attacks.
Miracle Dice can substantially help skew results, and certain strats can make it more likely etc... but honestly the range is as big an advantage as any. Its a big hitter w RANGE, which matters.
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
Remember things has change for vehicles too. No longer have armor anymore you have to break through. Just wounds. Land raider has how many wounds when with Exorcist missile launcher it is a Heavy 3D3 8 strength, -3 ap and D6 damage. So if you got 3 wounds and subsitute the damage with MD of 6 that is 18 damage right there. It is gone. I have one hit a Hammerhead Gunship of tau with no help of MD. Vehicles no longer have armor you have to penetrate, making them a lot weaker.
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
Remember things has change for vehicles too. No longer have armor anymore you have to break through. Just wounds. Land raider has how many wounds when with Exorcist missile launcher it is a Heavy 3D3 8 strength, -3 ap and D6 damage. So if you got 3 wounds and subsitute the damage with MD of 6 that is 18 damage right there. It is gone. I have one hit a Hammerhead Gunship of tau with no help of MD. Vehicles no longer have armor you have to penetrate, making them a lot weaker.
Umm you replace ONE damage dice with MD. So if you get 3 past save and have 6 on MD you cause 2d6+6. You need to roll 10+ to one shot it.
For the record made program to simulate exorcist vs various targets with options to have reroll 1 to hit(canoness), use moment of grace to one to wound roll(this assumes you have 3 spare MD for this) and one or two 6 miracle dice(2 requires you also to have triumph nearby. Only way to get 2 acts of faith for exorcists).
With every possible buff available(aka canoness, triump, 2 md's that have 6 and 3 other spare(to ensure even if your all failed to wound rolls are 1 you can still up one to passed wound roll) and 1 CP for moment of grace you have about 27% odds of one shotting land raider. That's huge resource sink though. 170 for exorcist, 185 for triump, 45 for canoness, getting 2 6's on MD's and at least 1-2 other MD plus CP.
Naked zero ups more like 2%. Add in rr1 and ONE MD6 and we go up to around 6%. 9% with moment of grace added to mix.
One thing I did not add is sacred rite for extra AP on 6 to wound.
if you get a 3+ you can turn them into auto saves, because it can also make the dice +1
True that though flat 4+ MD better. But if you have 3rd MD(aka terrain. Only other source that gives you MD on T1 opponent turn if he goes first. Beacon of faith specifically is start of your turn) that helps also. Possibly 2 auto inv save passed and one essentially 3++.
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
Remember things has change for vehicles too. No longer have armor anymore you have to break through. Just wounds. Land raider has how many wounds when with Exorcist missile launcher it is a Heavy 3D3 8 strength, -3 ap and D6 damage. So if you got 3 wounds and subsitute the damage with MD of 6 that is 18 damage right there. It is gone. I have one hit a Hammerhead Gunship of tau with no help of MD. Vehicles no longer have armor you have to penetrate, making them a lot weaker.
Umm you replace ONE damage dice with MD. So if you get 3 past save and have 6 on MD you cause 2d6+6. You need to roll 10+ to one shot it.
For the record made program to simulate exorcist vs various targets with options to have reroll 1 to hit(canoness), use moment of grace to one to wound roll(this assumes you have 3 spare MD for this) and one or two 6 miracle dice(2 requires you also to have triumph nearby. Only way to get 2 acts of faith for exorcists).
With every possible buff available(aka canoness, triump, 2 md's that have 6 and 3 other spare(to ensure even if your all failed to wound rolls are 1 you can still up one to passed wound roll) and 1 CP for moment of grace you have about 27% odds of one shotting land raider. That's huge resource sink though. 170 for exorcist, 185 for triump, 45 for canoness, getting 2 6's on MD's and at least 1-2 other MD plus CP.
Naked zero ups more like 2%. Add in rr1 and ONE MD6 and we go up to around 6%. 9% with moment of grace added to mix.
One thing I did not add is sacred rite for extra AP on 6 to wound.
if you get a 3+ you can turn them into auto saves, because it can also make the dice +1
True that though flat 4+ MD better. But if you have 3rd MD(aka terrain. Only other source that gives you MD on T1 opponent turn if he goes first. Beacon of faith specifically is start of your turn) that helps also. Possibly 2 auto inv save passed and one essentially 3++.
I didn't know that, I thought you can substitute as many dice for a act of faith that you need, unless your saying it is waste to do more than one. I only say this because charging for act of faith, You need two MD to do charge on act of faith to get a model that is say 11 inches away.
You can replace as many dice in single roll with one act. Charge is single roll so you can replace 1 or 2 dice. Single shooting attack is single roll. Exorcist has 3d3 individual attacks. You need one act per one attack.
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
Triumph standing by to make the first two shots do 12 damage gets you most of the way there
Stop rolling dice when you don't have to
That seems to be mostly how they've built sisters, you have these statistically iffy weapons that can be over the top good with miracle dice
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been running Exorcists for over 10 years and have only once one-shot a Land Raider. Even with the new dex Exorcist, the chance of one-shotting a T8 16W vehicle is less than 5%.
It bothers me when these claims are made like Land Raiders are “constantly” getting “one-shotted” by Exorcists.
Triumph standing by to make the first two shots do 12 damage gets you most of the way there
Stop rolling dice when you don't have to
That seems to be mostly how they've built sisters, you have these statistically iffy weapons that can be over the top good with miracle dice
I agree with your statement “stop rolling dice when you don’t have to”, but taking a 185 point model to do that is not very competitive. I mean, you’re taking a model that costs MORE than a Land Raider costs base just to “get most of the way there”.
I agree with your statement “stop rolling dice when you don’t have to”, but taking a 185 point model to do that is not very competitive. I mean, you’re taking a model that costs MORE than a Land Raider costs base just to TRY to kill it.
That 185 points replaces a dialogus, faith generation canoness and battle sanctum, so its fairly reasonably priced for what it does.
I know I know, unless I'm playing the cookie cutter meta list that someone else has been prototyping it must be bad.
davidgr33n wrote: “That 185 points replaces a dialogus, faith generation canoness and battle sanctum, so its fairly reasonably priced for what it does.”
You mean you’re replacing 3 units which cost 130 points with one that costs 185 points to knock out a model that costs 180 points.
I’ll stick to my argument.
What land raider is 180 points?
You understand that triumph isn't just sitting around babysitting the exorcists all game right?
I’ve yet to see a competitive sisters build with that 185 point model.
Also, I said a LR was 180 points base in my first comment, so that’s where I get that.
Wether or not you use Triumph, I personally don’t care, my initial comment was that people who claim that an Exorcist (no mention of Triumph as support) can one-shot a LR like it’s a normal occurrence are flat out wrong.
davidgr33n wrote: I personally don’t care, my initial comment was that people who claim that an Exorcist (no mention of Triumph as support) can one-shot a LR like it’s a normal occurrence are flat out wrong.
Well I'll keep you updated, so far we're 2/2 for doing at least 14ish wounds per go.
davidgr33n wrote: I personally don’t care, my initial comment was that people who claim that an Exorcist (no mention of Triumph as support) can one-shot a LR like it’s a normal occurrence are flat out wrong.
Well I'll keep you updated, so far we're 2/2 for doing at least 14ish wounds per go.
And I wish you the best of luck - we’re all here to pump up our game so anything new I can learn is always welcome.
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve yet to see a competitive sisters build with that 185 point model.
Also, I said a LR was 180 points base in my first comment, so that’s where I get that.
Wether or not you use Triumph, I personally don’t care, my initial comment was that people who claim that an Exorcist (no mention of Triumph as support) can one-shot a LR like it’s a normal occurrence are flat out wrong.
So you mark down stuff that costs point and gives all sort of bonuses but somehow ignore mandatory weapons. "yeah it's fine. I'm cheaper than you because I don't count weapons yet you have to pay for everything for my analysis".
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve yet to see a competitive sisters build with that 185 point model.
Also, I said a LR was 180 points base in my first comment, so that’s where I get that.
Wether or not you use Triumph, I personally don’t care, my initial comment was that people who claim that an Exorcist (no mention of Triumph as support) can one-shot a LR like it’s a normal occurrence are flat out wrong.
So you mark down stuff that costs point and gives all sort of bonuses but somehow ignore mandatory weapons. "yeah it's fine. I'm cheaper than you because I don't count weapons yet you have to pay for everything for my analysis".
Yep yep.
let it go, I'm really not worried about what someone who'se played for 10 years but hasn't made a shot with a 5% probability in that timeframe :p
A LR once, mainly because LRs haven’t been in my meta for a long time - but I have one-shot 3 Monoliths and a 2 questor Knights over the last few years (though I skipped 7th and sisters beta dex). The point stands it’s not a common occurrence with “un-supported” Exos.
davidgr33n wrote: A LR once, mainly because LRs haven’t been in my meta for a long time - but I have one-shot 3 Monoliths and a 2 questor Knights over the last few years (though I skipped 7th and sisters beta dex). The point stands it’s not a common occurrence with “un-supported” Exos.
It's not even commonplace with support exorcists. I don't think they even used to be able to kill a land raider at all.
I simmed it last night out of curiosity. It was closer to 3-4% with no support of any kind, with a 1/6 chance of doing 0 damage to a Land Raider in the open. With a Miracle Die and Divine Guidance the odds improved to ~8% of destroying a no-cover Land Raider outright but only lowered the odds of whiffing to 1 in 7. Median damage was around 6 wounds, 7 with Divine Guidance and a Miracle Die.
Basically, it takes at least two Exorcists (more likely three) to take out one Land Raider.
That's actually not true. Even with a miracle die and in melta range, 4 inferno pistol shots have a 20% chance of doing nothing to a Land Raider. Add in an overcharged plasma pistol and that drops to just under 15%
Outside of melta range, the 4 inferno pistols only have a 1 in 15 (6.56%) chance of doing 12+ wound with a miracle die. The median is 5.158, mode 0. The plasma pistol brings this up to 9%, with the median damage only increasing by 0.5.
Inside melta range, the median for just the four inferno pistols is 6.2 -- or about half a wound. You still have a 1 in 5 chance of your inferno pistols doing nothing, but your odds of crippling the Land Raider go up to 1 in 8 - almost double what they were before. A plasma pistol shifts the median to 6.8, your odds of doing nothing drop to under 15%, and your odds of crippling the tank go to 16.4% (1 in 6).
So, will a squad of Seraphim cripple a Land Raider? Inside melta range, probably. Otherwise, no. Will a single seraphim cripple one? Most likely not.
Edit: just checked the numbers for a single seraphim. Outside melta range, 0.43% of doing 12 damage -- 1 in 233. Inside melta range, 1.28% -- 1 in 78. There's a 44.5% change she whiffs entirely, or almost 1 in 2. That includes a miracle die, but no rerolling for a Canoness or CP.
Single seraphim isn't tripointing anything. And doubt even 5 can surround enough while staying coherency. Rather just tag and force to fall back so short of ultramarine can't shoot
Look, why are we fixating on a Land Raider anyways? It's not seen competitively. In friendly games you chuckle, say "how cute" and obliterate it whether its one exorcist or 20. No tank can stand up to the might of the Sisters of Battle. Its irrelevant how many melta shots it takes, because we HAVE that many... and more. So hooray us.
I think the point is rather moot. The only armies I have learned have a chance against me are massed AP -3 firepoower that have incredible range like say... IMperial Fists for round 1 (in which case i learned the hard way just to stand outside that range for a round, force them to change doctrines and life is good) or bad deployment against the alpha armies like Raven Guard and Blood Angels. Even then, there is a lot you can do about that, and its mostly bad deployment that will get you in trouble because lord know the Death Company are only going to get one round before they are dead as a doornail.
So REALLY its just the super long range massed firepower that could get you because you might spend a bit too long in its sites while getting there. At end of day, if we dont pay attention to terrain we are gonna' lose, so decent terrain is a must for us and any squishy army.
Sisters of Battle seem really good so far. I've taken incredible beatings as far as the models lost in games, but the scores tell a different tale. We can SCORE! We can take it to the hole and absolutely score despite horrendous losses.
You just have to have an iron stomach with these ladies because you just are going to lose a boat load of Sisters in a lot of games.
But as for Land Raiders and tanks in general: I don't know that I am concerned that much about those. My list averages 35 STR 8 weapons. So bring it.
tneva82 wrote: You can replace as many dice in single roll with one act. Charge is single roll so you can replace 1 or 2 dice. Single shooting attack is single roll. Exorcist has 3d3 individual attacks. You need one act per one attack.
So seraphim/zeryaphim are coming out soon what are people's thoughts about them both from casual and competitive stance?
Ran junith with three full squads of double inferno seraphim. Hard to put down fast antitank that got better once the squad loses a girl is pretty scary but even with a 4++ that t3 really makes things rough on the receiving end. Felt very glass cannon but more cannon than glass.
Was also thinking of trying out an imagifier with book of St lucius to extend a str/ap aura and just move advance to keep up with some zeryphim to make them s4 reroll to wounds. On average her increased range aura will still be in range of full movement zeryphim from two turns. Could even blow a miracle die to keep up in range. Only problem would be to keep her from being picked off. S4 vs S3 only matters on t3- t4, and t6-7. Assuming bloody rose s4 full squad puts out 31 attacks 20.46 hits, 15.35 wounds on meqs while s3 is 11.27.
Anyone think the 4.08 wounds and extra ap protection is worth it?
Oberron wrote: So seraphim/zeryaphim are coming out soon what are people's thoughts about them both from casual and competitive stance?
Ran junith with three full squads of double inferno seraphim. Hard to put down fast antitank that got better once the squad loses a girl is pretty scary but even with a 4++ that t3 really makes things rough on the receiving end. Felt very glass cannon but more cannon than glass.
Was also thinking of trying out an imagifier with book of St lucius to extend a str/ap aura and just move advance to keep up with some zeryphim to make them s4 reroll to wounds. On average her increased range aura will still be in range of full movement zeryphim from two turns. Could even blow a miracle die to keep up in range. Only problem would be to keep her from being picked off. S4 vs S3 only matters on t3- t4, and t6-7. Assuming bloody rose s4 full squad puts out 31 attacks 20.46 hits, 15.35 wounds on meqs while s3 is 11.27.
Anyone think the 4.08 wounds and extra ap protection is worth it?
Both Seraphim and Zephyrim are significant in our competitive builds. Imagifiers are awesome for both VH and BR, but are easier to use as support for core forces and BR Repentia than Seraphim/Zephyrim.
Yes, it is. Because shutting down a platform with those heavy weapons happens when you touch it in combat.
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tneva82 wrote: Single seraphim isn't tripointing anything. And doubt even 5 can surround enough while staying coherency. Rather just tag and force to fall back so short of ultramarine can't shoot
Thinking of running 2 battalions of VH with massed sisters and exorcist etc then a vanguard of bloody rose with a cannonness using the BR relic chainsword . In the vanguard I'm wanting to run a bit unit of repentia in a rhino with done Zepharim and possibly a celestians squad for a bit of punch.
So I just started building the army and I've got a couple of questions. For those running larger sisters squads, are you using simulacrum in those squads? If you are is it an always thing or just there's 10 points left over so you add a couple?
Triumph of Saint Katherine, has anyone actually used it? Looking for actual game results, it doesn't seem super competitive but was it fun and do cool things? Wondering if I should replace the one I converted into 6 characters.
willt!@967 wrote: So I just started building the army and I've got a couple of questions. For those running larger sisters squads, are you using simulacrum in those squads? If you are is it an always thing or just there's 10 points left over so you add a couple?
Triumph of Saint Katherine, has anyone actually used it? Looking for actual game results, it doesn't seem super competitive but was it fun and do cool things? Wondering if I should replace the one I converted into 6 characters.
Thanks for your replies
I use 15 sister squads. I always include the Simulacrum Imperialis. my melta guns embedded in there absolutely love overwatch 6's for example against an expensive shredbot. I love it for damage rolls. I mean why leave things to chance when you get your chance? even a 1 for morale can be huge. with dialogus around, you can get a lot from the roll.
I am really sure you could get more bodies if you didn't take the flags of course. But that feels like just more lambs for the slaughter. I like raw efficacy and things doing what they should, when they should. I bought meltas for the chance to obliterate that dreadnough/Daemon prince/whatever and I can get three chances at it in place of 1? Yes please?
willt!@967 wrote: So I just started building the army and I've got a couple of questions. For those running larger sisters squads, are you using simulacrum in those squads? If you are is it an always thing or just there's 10 points left over so you add a couple?
Triumph of Saint Katherine, has anyone actually used it? Looking for actual game results, it doesn't seem super competitive but was it fun and do cool things? Wondering if I should replace the one I converted into 6 characters.
Thanks for your replies
I'm painting triumph to try. Got bit more interesting when I noticed she generates MD on each turn so you get one on your turn and another on opponent. And even if opponent goes first you are 100% quaranteed to have 2 MD(3 if you have terrain piece). This gives you hopefully 1-2 automatic pass for inv save or at least chance to turn 3 to 4. Add to that decent terrain so you can hide(remember it's infantry so can move past ruins and not much guns so advance on t1 to clear ruin isn't issue) and it shouldn't be that quickly dead.
Oh and if you are worried about survival you could consider allying with IG for some indirect fire(which sisters lack) and some bullgryns. You lose sacred rites which aren't that huge and get that indirect fire and ability to use -1 to hit stratagem for bullgryns to protect triumph. -2 to hit triumph is tough enough if opponent tries to take she'll be wonderful bullet magnet taking quite a lot of resources from enemy guns.
I'm painting triumph to try. Got bit more interesting when I noticed she generates MD on each turn so you get one on your turn and another on opponent. And even if opponent goes first you are 100% quaranteed to have 2 MD(3 if you have terrain piece). This gives you hopefully 1-2 automatic pass for inv save or at least chance to turn 3 to 4. Add to that decent terrain so you can hide(remember it's infantry so can move past ruins and not much guns so advance on t1 to clear ruin isn't issue) and it shouldn't be that quickly dead.
Triumph is pretty fun, and with line of sight blocking cover it isn't that big of a deal, the problem I have with it is that it doesn't synergize with the list you want to put it in very well.
a faith heavy list, it can replace all your faith support but the infantry using all that faith really do nothing for it and its a huge target
in a more faith light list, it can push exorcists and double melta immolators over the top, and they can protect it by blocking line of sight, this seems to be the way to go
in a melee based list, there's no way to protect it on the way in, it isn't all that much of a beatstick but folks like to focus it like it is
tneva82 wrote: Well for melee army you could consider those bullgryns. -2 to hit at triumph is pretty hard. And bullgryn is another melee threat
sisters melee options which are buffed by triumph are typically glass cannons that hit insanely hard and have very long (miracle enhanced) charge ranges.
Triumph isn't generally doing that though. Triumph is more of support and getting her alive near the enemy to support is helpful. Unit of bullgryns keeps up with triump fine enough. Rest of the IG could be indirect fire which is something sisters are in lacking with maybe couple squads of infantry to provide deep strike push zones.
While true, I think it'd be better to just have more Celestians and Repentia and Zephyrim and give them The Passion, if you want a close combat oriented Sisters force.
So...how the Feth are we supposed to use the battle sanctum? Do you think it comes with more rules because like...if it's just what's in the codex it's actually super busted for a 50 point terrain piece.
You can assemble the structure part just about anyway you want to and put the statue totally separate, all the way across the board. Between the two you can guarantee cover for your important infantry units(and maybe even vehicles if you're tricky enough) guarantee a good vantage point for retributors, guarantee LoS blocking for characters and give HUGE auras of +1 leadership to us -1 leadership to chaos. The guaranteed miracle dice is just the cherry at that point.
ERJAK wrote: So...how the Feth are we supposed to use the battle sanctum? Do you think it comes with more rules because like...if it's just what's in the codex it's actually super busted for a 50 point terrain piece.
You can assemble the structure part just about anyway you want to and put the statue totally separate, all the way across the board. Between the two you can guarantee cover for your important infantry units(and maybe even vehicles if you're tricky enough) guarantee a good vantage point for retributors, guarantee LoS blocking for characters and give HUGE auras of +1 leadership to us -1 leadership to chaos. The guaranteed miracle dice is just the cherry at that point.
this is exactly how the imperial gunline was, you get the gun, then you get the barricades which you can deploy however you want within the rules stated, as far as I can tell the rules would be centered on the statue and the building is just a bonus.
also remember that it costs you a detachment.
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Melissia wrote: Yeah but the points you save in NOT taking Triumph can also be directed towards more canonesses, celestians, zephyrim, and repentia soooooo....
I know that's not helpful for people who love the Triumph, but well, it's really not a very good unit for that style of play.
Right, the trouble with triumph is the kind of army which makes good use of its abilities, and the kind in which you actually can afford to put it in, are two different armies.
if it had some legit vehicle buffs to crank up mech sisters it could be a thing, but the combination of wanting to play lots of close up infantry and being the prime target in an army of close up infantry is a tough sell.
I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
For my list I'm thinking 2 VH battalions with loads of sisters, Celestine, couple of cannonness backed up by 3 excorcists and 2 retributors squads. Then wanting a BR vanguard with a cannonness with the relic chainsword and a blob of repentia in a rhino, a squad of celestians so sit near imagifiers etc and then a Zepharim squad, quite liking the combined arms approach.
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
le sigh.
Yeah over competitive jerks tend to ruin a LOT of things for our game unfortunately. Stuff like untargetable psychic characters, the whole salamander thing, etc. I can definitely see how the GW office is full of happy people who just love the game then they find out about this stuff and are like.......seriously?
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
le sigh.
hey at least they aren't just making up their own rules
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
le sigh.
This is an idiotic argument. There's not even VAGUE guidelines in the available rules for how to use the structure and nothing guiding how deployment should work beyond 'here's all the stuff in the box'.
They gave us a box of random legos and said 'here figure it out' and people like you have the ridiculous, nonsensical hot take of 'well it's YOUR fault if it gets modeled for advantage' not the ACTUAL truth of the matter which is; if they intend for it to be used creatively, it will be used creatively, if they didn't then they screwed up the rules.
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
le sigh.
hey at least they aren't just making up their own rules
Oh yeah, I forgot about that; that he totally made up rules for how...I believe the imagifier(?) worked and got super salty when people disputed his little homebrew. That makes this BS 'but the waac players tho' thing he's doing even more hilarious.
Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
all the whiny uber competitive types will ruin it. lol. it will seem obvious and then some douche will raise "plausible" things and because 95% of the players dont use it, they'll all vote in favor of nerfing their enemies like usual.
le sigh.
Yeah over competitive jerks tend to ruin a LOT of things for our game unfortunately. Stuff like untargetable psychic characters, the whole salamander thing, etc. I can definitely see how the GW office is full of happy people who just love the game then they find out about this stuff and are like.......seriously?
They write the rules. If the rules make a unit of salamanders do 20 mortal wounds a turn, that's a failure of the rules writers not the players.
If they're finding about this stuff from players it's due to incompetence not people being 'overly competitive'.
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Asmodai wrote: I interpreted the piece the opposite way - the everything within the "C" formed by the walls is within the terrain and the statute is just decorative since it talks about being able to put it onto of the rest of the terrain.
It will hopefully be clarified.
I want to clarify my point with this:
I DO NOT care one way or another how the battle sanctum works, at 50 points it's a competitive option just for the extra miracle dice, it doesn't need all the hooplah and rigamorole to be useful.
What I DO care about is the ability to use it correctly. If the intention is that only the walls matter, they must be assembled a specific way, and the statue is entirely decorative then that's fine.
If you can take advantage of the seeming modularity of the walls as well as the statue to create an even more favorable terrain piece, that works too.
I just want to know WHICH ONE IS CORRECT and GW have failed UTTERLY to do so in the codex rules of the battle sanctum, as well as the initial SoBfaq so either the more detailed rules are in the box or we must take the RAW as it comes, at which point it allows many different varieties of shenanigans which are all ENTIRELY due to GW's oversight.
to clarify, it amounted to me putting a trait on a character. coulda put it on anyone. I dont even recall what the model was but the argument was essentially whether a model could affect other models and its <order> if I recall. right after the beta dropped so who cares.
I had already changed it in my list by the time he bitched and a couple local players told him so, but here he is, on about it.... again. . after admins told him to drop the issue. but I had argued the point. Honestly, it's time to get him some sunshine and vitamin B.
You were arguing that the beta-dex Diaogus, despite it not having the <Order> keyword, worked with the beta-dex version of Indomitable Belief to give any <Order> unit within 6" a bonus to its Shield of Faith because you could just substitute whatever Order keyword you wanted to it.
Taikishi wrote: It wasn't the Imagifier; it was the Dialogus.
You were arguing that the beta-dex Diaogus, despite it not having the <Order> keyword, worked with the beta-dex version of Indomitable Belief to give any <Order> unit within 6" a bonus to its Shield of Faith because you could just substitute whatever Order keyword you wanted to it.
ok dialogus. right. you're almost right. what I had said was that the the trait targetted those with that order. and as mentioned had moved the trait to Canoness anyways. months ago. many. months ago.
I think the Battle Sanctum may just be a Fortification that other armies may pick up, just for the 12" height and the resulting line of sight advantage.
If I buy two, I think I'll model the second statue as someone beating a dead horse.
Regarding the set up of the battle sanctum, on the recent warhammer community post the designer says:
"The statue itself is designed to be STANDALONE (emphasis mine), but you can mount it on top of a building if you want to make an imposing centrepiece for your scenery collection – the footprint of the plinth it’s mounted on fits inside one of the standard Sector Imperialis floor/roof tiles. As such, the statue itself can fit on any building you can possibly use from our scenery range!"
Not an official rules clarification per se, but the the statue is clearly not intended to benefit from the specific battle sanctum rules. If it becomes a problem, I'd expect this to get faq'd fast.
Of course, that doesn't stop you spamming three of them at such a low points cost.
ArikTaranis wrote: Regarding the set up of the battle sanctum, on the recent warhammer community post the designer says:
"The statue itself is designed to be STANDALONE (emphasis mine), but you can mount it on top of a building if you want to make an imposing centrepiece for your scenery collection – the footprint of the plinth it’s mounted on fits inside one of the standard Sector Imperialis floor/roof tiles. As such, the statue itself can fit on any building you can possibly use from our scenery range!"
Not an official rules clarification per se, but the the statue is clearly not intended to benefit from the specific battle sanctum rules. If it becomes a problem, I'd expect this to get faq'd fast.
Of course, that doesn't stop you spamming three of them at such a low points cost.
See, I disagree with that assessment. I actually think the statue is what makes the sanctum and the walls, its limits. The modularity of the kit is ment to sell the kit to non-sisters players as terrain features, rather than enabled weird rule interpretation.
I also think we prefer to keep the kit together anyway, give how we plan to use it.
I'm not actually sure we do disagree ultimately, other than perhaps the semantics of which part the battle sanctum name applies to. It's just that the wording of the statement to me suggests the statue is a separate/optional entity which is not part of the rules. I could be wrong, and again it's simply a designer's comment, not a rule.
We both agree that the standalone statue is not intended to extend the battle sanctum's auras, that the walls are the critical metric, right? Placing the statue within the boundaries of the walls is fine, as it doesn't really affect the model rules-wise (or at least, only minimally). LoS stays pretty much the same.
I agree with the point about modularity keeping modelling options open, rather than enabling rules manipulation.
See, I would measure from the statue if it was the closest part for rules, but I'd also have it... within a unit coherence range of the building, since it's all one 'unit'
That depends. Can we also stop calling competitive players jerks and acknowledge that GW needs to write better, more consistent, more concise, and more clear rules? If anything, the ones people call "jerks" need to be GW's playtesters. Break the rules in playtest, point them out...
... and then pray GW actually listens, unlike what happened with the initial FAQ of the Iron Hands supplement and then the most recent FAQ on the matter.
Edit: By "break the rules", I don't mean do anything illegal. I mean stretch the rules to the limit. Actually break them mechanically so they can be re-examined and, if necessary, rebuilt.
I personally didn't call anyone in here a jerk, and I'm really not interested in your whataboutist argument. I just really don't want this thread to get dragged down by personal attacks, no matter who's throwing htem.
All my lists, for like every army, tend to include a certain amount of inefficiency simply because I enjoy the gameplay about a mechanic or like a model too much not to include it...so I'm too biased to really look at some of these things properly.
So I'm wondering... I'm in love with the Simulacrum and Cherub combo with embedded meltas for BSS, but is this too much inefficiency to still be able to field a solid force? It's a whole other BSS squad in points across the whole army, but they're so much fun. Is there something to be said for quality and timeliness of a strong play over simple boring quantity, or is that my bias talking again?
What is the consensus of the points cost for the geminae? The Codex lists them as 16 points excluding wargear, but CA 2019 (which technically came out after the initial Codex release in the limited box...) says 16 points including wargear - battlescribe keeps them at 20 points, but I think it's not so clear that CA is wrong...
All my lists, for like every army, tend to include a certain amount of inefficiency simply because I enjoy the gameplay about a mechanic or like a model too much not to include it...so I'm too biased to really look at some of these things properly.
So I'm wondering... I'm in love with the Simulacrum and Cherub combo with embedded meltas for BSS, but is this too much inefficiency to still be able to field a solid force? It's a whole other BSS squad in points across the whole army, but they're so much fun. Is there something to be said for quality and timeliness of a strong play over simple boring quantity, or is that my bias talking again?
I have to make the caveat that I don't have a ton of games in to reflect on, but I'm definitely including two such units (sharing Rhinos with stormbolter Dominions for now) going forward in most of my lists. In my limited experience, they're a little swingy, but they can be decisive when the dice (both regular and miraculous) behave, and usually they can soften something up at short range that an Exorcist can finish from long range (or the other way around if I have enough MDs to spare for Exo damage with the original 1/turn before Simulacra kick in). Maybe not the most efficient, but very fun and cinematic when it goes well. An especially rewarding use has been to open with an Exo to soften up a Repulsor, finish it with the BSS melta/cherub/simulacrum combo, and use the stormbolter Doms with Blessed Bolts to wreck the Primaris squad inside.
Has anybody used Zephyrim in non-Bloody Rose detachments? I really enjoy the (pretty much) guaranteed charge from Deepstrike, also for longer distances than 9 inch, but I'm not so sure if these girls pack sufficient punch by themselves to warrant their point cost. I purchased two kits, so I can field a single 10-girl squad. Of course I will just try it out myself, but I do not get to play very regularly at the moment, so other people's experiences would be nice to get a better feel for this unit.
Bossdoc wrote: What is the consensus of the points cost for the geminae? The Codex lists them as 16 points excluding wargear, but CA 2019 (which technically came out after the initial Codex release in the limited box...) says 16 points including wargear - battlescribe keeps them at 20 points, but I think it's not so clear that CA is wrong...
Argument is codex released in january is newer but that argument means every sister player that got boxed set is expected to buy 2 codex...And GW being GW of course didn't bother touching subject in faq
Us3Less wrote: Has anybody used Zephyrim in non-Bloody Rose detachments? I really enjoy the (pretty much) guaranteed charge from Deepstrike, also for longer distances than 9 inch, but I'm not so sure if these girls pack sufficient punch by themselves to warrant their point cost. I purchased two kits, so I can field a single 10-girl squad. Of course I will just try it out myself, but I do not get to play very regularly at the moment, so other people's experiences would be nice to get a better feel for this unit.
with support of +1str and attack they still pretty much butcher stuff, you could also charge them in alongside a casket canoness to make up for the loss of +1 to wound
I’ve come up with a 2000 pt balanced comp list that has the units I’ve wanted for my play style. It’s a core of 9” Imagifier covering Exos and SB squads, 3 Seraphim in reserve, and 2 units of 4 Mortiifers-
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
More Mortifiers to add to the weight of HB dice and attacks with the other 2 Morty units;
OR
Zephyrim to keep the opponent on defense which can also come in when the surviving Morts make contact for reroll synergies.
I don’t know which would be better? I like Mortifiers since they can be shooting their HBs from turn one and charging with the other 8 Morts, but they Zephyrim keep the opponent guessing and can also lend a hand to Morts when they come on.
Grundz wrote: And everyone knows 30 boy ork squads are the gold standard of durability
kay smart guy. they also nuclear strike an entire Primaris Squad.
They do the same when they get the jump on Zephyrim squads too.
Yeah? So? that's a complete non sequitur, but sure?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve come up with a 2000 pt balanced comp list that has the units I’ve wanted for my play style. It’s a core of 9” Imagifier covering Exos and SB squads, 3 Seraphim in reserve, and 2 units of 4 Mortiifers-
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
More Mortifiers to add to the weight of HB dice and attacks with the other 2 Morty units;
OR
Zephyrim to keep the opponent on defense which can also come in when the surviving Morts make contact for reroll synergies.
I don’t know which would be better? I like Mortifiers since they can be shooting their HBs from turn one and charging with the other 8 Morts, but they Zephyrim keep the opponent guessing and can also lend a hand to Morts when they come on.
Your opinions pls
Killer z's give you a very high chance of making it there so.probably Killer z's
Thanks for the replies on the Zephyrim so far. Sounds like not that many people have run them vanilla. I'll just try it out to see how it works.
Regarding Seraphim, what's the point/purpose of 3 squads of 5 with inferno pistols? You can only Deadly Descent one of them in turn 2 and one in turn 3, leaving the third squad to do nothing upon arrival. I've found these girls to be rather pointless if they can't do anything the turn they arrive because they are very easy to kill after coming down. Sure, they might not get killed, but then what's the point really of the unit if they only perform from turn 3 onward (while being vulnerable/inflexible since turn 2)?
@ Us3less: Starting them on the board also gives you a bodyguard for Celestine if you choose to break your invuln bubble and use her more offensively; swap the infernos for flamers or run them stock to add a few more bodies. I've done this to have Celestine's aura waiting when the T2 deep strikers arrive.
If you're building a brigade and trying to leave points for a second detachment, use the 3rd Fast slot for stormbolter Dominions with extra bodies. If they give you two turns of Blessed Bolts they probably earn their points back, and if they get shot up after one turn, they might save your Celestians or Repentia from small arms fire in the process. Because of the strat, like Seraphim, your first unit of Dominions is worth way more than the second.
That leaves me with enough points to get an Aux Det of either:
4 Mortifiers
Or
10 BR Zephyrim with 54 points left over.
So my question is, in this list:
Only benefit those zephyrs would have being br is strat. In return no order bonus, no imagifier, no canoness rr, nothing. And you pay 1cp. I would just put them on det myself
If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
Jancoran wrote: Zephyrim fully buffed kill 30 boy ork squads.
Even without being bloody rose? How much do we lose when they're strength 3?
A lot, the reroll to wound with a good chance to wound is their strength, +1 to wound is big against a lot of targets.
possible considerations
-a canoness with the casket to give the other guy -1 to toughness if you can't give the zeraphim the +1 to strength due to <order>
-a supreme command detachment (bloody rose canoness is good, and a missionary gets you 2/3rds of the way there) to get those bloody rose zeraphim into your list, just save that miracle dice to guarantee the drop charge so the defensive buffs don't matter
Some math
10 zeraphim, completely unsupported:
10.5w vs T3 4+
6.5 w vs T4 3+
3.5 w vs T6+ 3+
10 zeraphim, missionary, canoness, casket (so fully-ish buffed, non bloody rose)
21.4w vs T3 4+
18w vs T4 3+
13.3 vs T6 3+
7.3 vs T8 3+
with just bloody rose + stratagem, no other support
17w vs t3 4+
13.5w vs T4 3+
9w vs T6+ 3+
with bloody rose + stratagem + missionary (not order locked bonus) and casket (not order locked bonus)
25.8w vs t3 4+
22.7w vs t4 3+
18.2w vs t6 3+
12.1 vs T8 3+
bloody rose + stratagem + missionary + canoness + triumph +1 str +casket
38.7w vs t3 4+
38.7w vs t4 3+
27.3 vs t6 3+
27.3 vs t8 3+
As you can see its a pretty sharp curve for how killy they get, to almost every swing killing with full buffs, however even with out-of-order available support, they still deliver /a lot/ of damage."
Doing 40 wounds is nice for multi assault but you're really banking a lot on one squad
If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
He also needs hq. Strat he gets anyway but yeah no order and costs cp for strat is expensive
If you take Zeph I would suggest trying to make it at least a patrol detachment. This way each Zeph gets 1 extra attack and -1 AP. BSS are only 45 points, and you'd still have 10 spare. Even dropping the Zephs to 8 would do a lot more damage than a full non BR squad, and you've got the strat on top of that for +1 wound; I think you pay 1CP for an Aux detachment anyway.
He also needs hq. Strat he gets anyway but yeah no order and costs cp for strat is expensive
I would take an Aux Support detachment (costs me 1 CP but worth it to me) of Bloody Rose Zephyrim. So no, I don’t need HQ or any other units, and I can make them any Order I want. My object is to throw them at something without needing supporting characters, so I’m not worried about wether they have a missionary or other support nearby.
See my list for how it synergizes.
I would take an Aux Support detachment (costs me 1 CP but worth it to me) of Bloody Rose Zephyrim. So no, I don’t need HQ or any other units, and I can make them any Order I want. My object is to throw them at something without needing supporting characters, so I’m not worried about wether they have a missionary or other support nearby.
See my list for how it synergizes.
Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
I don't think AUX detachments get Order benefits either. You can't for example take an AUX detachment of Deathwing Terminators and then use the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic. So in this case you'd not get the Bloody Rose Order benefit of extra attack and AP if they are in an AUX detachment.
Does the sisters codex lack the typical wording for stratagems?
"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any XYZ Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments)"
I don't think AUX detachments get Order benefits either. You can't for example take an AUX detachment of Deathwing Terminators and then use the Grim Resolve Chapter Tactic. So in this case you'd not get the Bloody Rose Order benefit of extra attack and AP if they are in an AUX detachment.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
So then in my list I’d rather go with a unit of 4 Mortifiers in a Auxiliary Detachment, make them the frontline unit (since they won’t benefit from Strats) and have the other two units behind them. Another option then would be to use Penitent Engines in the Aux Detachment and put them in front of the Mortifiers since the PEs have a 5+++.
davidgr33n wrote: So then in my list I’d rather go with a unit of 4 Mortifiers in a Auxiliary Detachment, make them the frontline unit (since they won’t benefit from Strats) and have the other two units behind them. Another option then would be to use Penitent Engines in the Aux Detachment and put them in front of the Mortifiers since the PEs have a 5+++.
I've reviewed the rules to be sure and have concluded that the Aux Support Detachment of 10 Bloody Rose Zephyrim will have full access to Conviction and Stratagems, so don't drop them for that reason. However, you will gain no synergy from their Pennant (Order-based). You could still use the Embodied Prophecy Stratagem with them as it is not Order-based.
Makes me think of an alternative Detachment for you. If you put 11 Mortifiers/Penintent Engines and an HQ of your choice into a Spearhead detachment. I'm sure you can find a use for a 3rd Cannoness or 2nd Missionary. You'd then gain a CP rather than losing one on the Detachment.
Lammia wrote: There's always a use for a third Canoness
With artifacts being what they are, its pretty easy to justify them now. I remember when a Canoness was a tax. now I have ENTIRELY affordable wrecking balls in my list. Got one that kills like...5 Primaris on a charge! I mean you cannot beat that.
I'm really startung to look forward to crashing the party with all this unexpected melee force. People are used to overunning us and butchering us down to like 7 models by games end. I can't wait to turn those tables with my new list. alpha armies are not going to like it.
The only problem is modeling them to look unique instead of looking the same but with different arms, damn lazy-ass monopose models. But I'm working out ways to get around that.
Double VH battalion with 6 squads of BSS with storm bolters (and the odd melta) some dominions with SB for blessed bolts. 3 excorcists, a squad of rets with 4 X MM. 2 cannonness for buffing stuff, Celestine and a missionary plus 2 imagifiers.
Then a third department of BR spear head using 3 X individual anchorites a squad of 10 X zeph and a small unit of seraphim with infero pistols. Leading them is a cannonness with righteous rage and beneficence.
Plan is for one imagifier to sit with the excorcists and help them out while the other buffs the BSS on objectives. The BR girls will then counter punch turn 2 with mortifiers and jump troops.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
If it were my list, I'd try to shift things towards a Brigade. If you peel off a few stormbolters from your BSS units to make a second Dominion squad and shift the Seraphim over you're most of the way there, and I suspect you'll be glad for the CP. I don't have any experience with Mortifiers, but three doesn't seem like a lot to build a central tactic around. I think it's probably a Canoness you want to park with your Exos, not an Imagifier, who does a lot more for Valorous Heart infantry and will probably be out of range by turn 2 or 3 if she moves up with them. I've taken to moving my auras up with the troops and letting the Exos fend for themselves unless I know I'm facing large volume mid-AP fire. That BR Canoness is an awesome choice, though.
Similarly, I'd sooner send the auras forward, even with the 9" upgrade. I'd worry about Marine armies camping in cover 29.5" away. Facing any army where you have to go close the range yourself to make the most of the shooting phase, you'll be faced with leaving the Exos behind or limiting your own range management moves. You might think about the souped up Canoness/Imagifier going up with the infantry and leaving a bare bones Canoness behind for the rerolls after Turn 1... but it's a non-issue against armies that come for you. I've had trouble making the heavy flamer Rets + Holy Trinity work consistently... when it does, it's great, but the stars really need to align for it to earn its points. I think with your extra bodies and the Cherubs you might just pull it off.
on turn 1 have repentia in a rhino for first turn charge, then cycle other units in
it looks fine, but you're entirely relying on having an opponent that isn't going to argue that he has line of sight on the imagifier overtop of the rhino(s)
I would try and spring for a 5 lady squad of celestians to babysit that warlord
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
Also, Canonesses are great and priests, hospitallers and dialogus are useful and order agnostic. I don't see any good reason to no invest the 200pts necessary to put together 2 Melee Canoness, an imagifier, and one more support character.
Especially considering, in my personal experience, armies tend to rush into our faces, which means you'll often be able to give zephyrim the canoness, imagifier and priest buffs, which makes them utterly terrifying against anything T7 or lower.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So having seen a live version of the battle sanctum(mine is stuck in Covid limbo atm) it's pretty obscene for only 50 points.
The thing is HUGE and has 3 full floors worth of delicious, delicious cover. You could conceivably give an exorcist, several battle sister squads, and a unit of repentia cover while staying within range of your stoic imagifier.
Or you could put ally units that benefit from cover into it and give them a commanding position on the battlefield. Ravenguard, and grey knights both get bonuses for being within terrain, all we'd need to do is figure out which units can provide the most output while camping out the structure.
The shenanigans with the statue are ultimately irrelevant simply due to how freakin big the main structure is.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I agree, Celestine should absolutely not be your warlord unless you have no other choice. Her warlord trait choice, is location-independent and works as long as the bearer is alive, so even if you want Beacon of Faith there's no reason not to give it to a Canoness babysitting Exorcists who is not going into harms way. In addition, Celestine is a big scary, pretty much a suicidal unit, and the enemy is going to want to kill her and benefits from directing firepower towards her. Adding on a victory point on her head is just giving the enemy a victory point for doing what they already were doing.
Warlord traits [and relics] that are position independent should generally be given to backline characters out of the line of fire. That way they'll never be easy off-hand kills for the enemy, and if the enemy really wants them gone, they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
You sound like Sun Tzu. We should really compile this stuff somewhere.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I agree, Celestine should absolutely not be your warlord unless you have no other choice. Her warlord trait choice, is location-independent and works as long as the bearer is alive, so even if you want Beacon of Faith there's no reason not to give it to a Canoness babysitting Exorcists who is not going into harms way. In addition, Celestine is a big scary, pretty much a suicidal unit, and the enemy is going to want to kill her and benefits from directing firepower towards her. Adding on a victory point on her head is just giving the enemy a victory point for doing what they already were doing.
Warlord traits [and relics] that are position independent should generally be given to backline characters out of the line of fire. That way they'll never be easy off-hand kills for the enemy, and if the enemy really wants them gone, they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
Disagree completely.
Celestine hasn't been a 'big scary' or 'suicidal' unit since the index version that could cleave your opponents backline by herself.
Celestine is a reasonably competent counter charger that also acts as a buff bot and a near sniper immune vessel for beacon of Faith. She offers alphastrike protection and punishment for deepstrikers and that's about it. She's fairly good at these roles, to be sure, but she's not exactly a lynchpin anymore. She could go down 20-40 points and I don't think it would be at all out of line.
The only people who are still focusing Celestine are reliving flashbacks to when index SoB were quietly SUPER OP. Smart opponents are going after canonesses and imagifiers, the real lynchpin of most modern SoB forces. Celestine also has the perk of requiring TWO PHASES worth of investment to fully put down, and her 2+4++ making her deeply irritating to kill with commonly seen sniper abilities. Most opponents will simply ignore her unless she presents as a target of opportunity. Going out of their way to kill her is a fools errand that may just force them out of position, or give an offensive unit a turn to repostion.
Putting beacon of faith on Celestine means you are dividing value more evenly along you characters and protecting against things like sniper fire, miss positioning, or even just long bomb charges. Putting it on a Canoness that often will have a relic or a null rod or a rod of office consolidates too much value on a single character. It's the same theory for why you shouldn't make your 2 Tale, Litanies imagifier your warlord.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I agree, Celestine should absolutely not be your warlord unless you have no other choice. Her warlord trait choice, is location-independent and works as long as the bearer is alive, so even if you want Beacon of Faith there's no reason not to give it to a Canoness babysitting Exorcists who is not going into harms way. In addition, Celestine is a big scary, pretty much a suicidal unit, and the enemy is going to want to kill her and benefits from directing firepower towards her. Adding on a victory point on her head is just giving the enemy a victory point for doing what they already were doing.
Warlord traits [and relics] that are position independent should generally be given to backline characters out of the line of fire. That way they'll never be easy off-hand kills for the enemy, and if the enemy really wants them gone, they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
Disagree completely.
Celestine hasn't been a 'big scary' or 'suicidal' unit since the index version that could cleave your opponents backline by herself.
Celestine is a reasonably competent counter charger that also acts as a buff bot and a near sniper immune vessel for beacon of Faith. She offers alphastrike protection and punishment for deepstrikers and that's about it. She's fairly good at these roles, to be sure, but she's not exactly a lynchpin anymore. She could go down 20-40 points and I don't think it would be at all out of line.
The only people who are still focusing Celestine are reliving flashbacks to when index SoB were quietly SUPER OP. Smart opponents are going after canonesses and imagifiers, the real lynchpin of most modern SoB forces. Celestine also has the perk of requiring TWO PHASES worth of investment to fully put down, and her 2+4++ making her deeply irritating to kill with commonly seen sniper abilities. Most opponents will simply ignore her unless she presents as a target of opportunity. Going out of their way to kill her is a fools errand that may just force them out of position, or give an offensive unit a turn to repostion.
Putting beacon of faith on Celestine means you are dividing value more evenly along you characters and protecting against things like sniper fire, miss positioning, or even just long bomb charges. Putting it on a Canoness that often will have a relic or a null rod or a rod of office consolidates too much value on a single character. It's the same theory for why you shouldn't make your 2 Tale, Litanies imagifier your warlord.
Celestine needs to drop about 60 points for me to be interested in running her. However, she's the second(technically third, but I'm discounting the Triumph for now) most expensive model we have on the board and is good enough that removing her isn't a waste of effort. She's also not hanging back, well out of the line of fire.
Both myself and Katherine were also being generous about how much attention a backfield Canoness would attract, even as a relic carrying WL they're just too far out of the game(once the Exorcists are dead) to be worth the pain of flying a unit or two over there to remove them.
Excluding the 3x5 sister which will stay hidden and take objectives, the enemy can shoot only transports first turns, everything will be in range of the imagifier, to which I commit a lot.
every rhino as an answer to chaff / elite / vehicles each (flamers, repentia, MM), and there are still the exorcist for all the rest,
the flamer retributors have a combi melta for the +1 to Wound stratagem, which is great with flamers.
Celestine should be able to ingage every near threat and 3rd turn charges straight ahead, when the enemy should have less answers for ther.
The canoness with the Litanies is chilling with the exorcists, taking objectives. Celestine is WL due to survivability, and I am committing a lot to the imagifier giving the +1 inv WLt and the +3' to auras Relic.
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol, Relic: Litanies of Faith
Canoness: Blessed Blade, Bolt pistol
Celestine: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Battle Sister Squad
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
+ Elites +
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Tale of the Stoic, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Sisters Repentia: 9x Sisters Repentia
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter, Hunter-killer missile
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
. 3x Retributor
. Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
Sororitas Rhino: Storm bolter
So... my first thought is a Canoness hiding behind the Exorcists with Litanies of Faith is a more survivable WL than St Celestine. Logic being that if your opponent is killing them twice, the loss of your WL is probably secondary to everything else that's happening on the board.
The Repentia also don't have a lot of support beyond the Superior. A Missionary and/or Tale of the Warrior is more useful in my experience, especially without a Conviction buff.
I agree, Celestine should absolutely not be your warlord unless you have no other choice. Her warlord trait choice, is location-independent and works as long as the bearer is alive, so even if you want Beacon of Faith there's no reason not to give it to a Canoness babysitting Exorcists who is not going into harms way. In addition, Celestine is a big scary, pretty much a suicidal unit, and the enemy is going to want to kill her and benefits from directing firepower towards her. Adding on a victory point on her head is just giving the enemy a victory point for doing what they already were doing.
Warlord traits [and relics] that are position independent should generally be given to backline characters out of the line of fire. That way they'll never be easy off-hand kills for the enemy, and if the enemy really wants them gone, they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
Disagree completely.
Celestine hasn't been a 'big scary' or 'suicidal' unit since the index version that could cleave your opponents backline by herself.
Celestine is a reasonably competent counter charger that also acts as a buff bot and a near sniper immune vessel for beacon of Faith. She offers alphastrike protection and punishment for deepstrikers and that's about it. She's fairly good at these roles, to be sure, but she's not exactly a lynchpin anymore. She could go down 20-40 points and I don't think it would be at all out of line.
The only people who are still focusing Celestine are reliving flashbacks to when index SoB were quietly SUPER OP. Smart opponents are going after canonesses and imagifiers, the real lynchpin of most modern SoB forces. Celestine also has the perk of requiring TWO PHASES worth of investment to fully put down, and her 2+4++ making her deeply irritating to kill with commonly seen sniper abilities. Most opponents will simply ignore her unless she presents as a target of opportunity. Going out of their way to kill her is a fools errand that may just force them out of position, or give an offensive unit a turn to repostion.
Putting beacon of faith on Celestine means you are dividing value more evenly along you characters and protecting against things like sniper fire, miss positioning, or even just long bomb charges. Putting it on a Canoness that often will have a relic or a null rod or a rod of office consolidates too much value on a single character. It's the same theory for why you shouldn't make your 2 Tale, Litanies imagifier your warlord.
Obviously, we agree that one should distribute your available points and essential function across many targets to avoid being crippled by the elimination of a critical target, I guess we disagree on Celestine's function and value, and ease of elimination.
I think that Celestine is always going to be of way higher value than a backfield canoness, even if you gave her a rod of office or null rod. Even if you're just using her for her invul save aura to stack it with the warlord trait, she's a high priority target for the enemy. At least, she's a vastly higher priority target than a bare-bones 45 point Canoness hiding behind an Exorcist, and being in the middle of the army's infantry [and thus near the front] and fairly large with no way to get out of LoS, she's definitely not harder to kill in the first place
For a warlord trait that doesn't care who it's on and only needs to be alive, stick it on the lowest value, safest character in your army, and I don't think that character is Celestine. 2 Battalions or a Brigade+Battalion will leave you with a lot of noncritical HQ characters to be you warlord and hide behind an Exorcist to generate a faith die per turn if that's what you want.
MacPhail wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
You sound like Sun Tzu. We should really compile this stuff somewhere.
Ha. I've been told by my friends that talking to me is like getting a lecture or listening to a podcast.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: they have to invest in destroying a unit that wasn't also threatening them more directly, thus preserving your firepower and momentum.
You sound like Sun Tzu. We should really compile this stuff somewhere.
Ha. I've been told by my friends that talking to me is like getting a lecture or listening to a podcast.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
Also, Canonesses are great and priests, hospitallers and dialogus are useful and order agnostic. I don't see any good reason to no invest the 200pts necessary to put together 2 Melee Canoness, an imagifier, and one more support character.
This is how i'm shoe horning in triumph into my lists
supreme command of bloody rose canoness, missionary, triumph, done.
I get that Aux Detachments can’t use stratagems, but they still get Sacred Rites and I don’t see anything in the order convictions portion of our rules that says if I take an Aux Detachment I can’t give it an <Order>. If someone can prove me wrong by the rules then I’ll agree, but I don’t see that anywhere.
AFAIK by RAW, I can give my Aux Detachment of Zephyrim the <Bloody Rose> Convictions.
with the loss of the stratagem, I'd rather just take them in-order, an aux detachment unable to get the +1 strength from the banner or the +1 to wound from the detachment is trading 1 attack and an extra ap that rarely matters for -1 to -3 to wound. the casket becomes a requirement for them to kill much beyond chaff that your bolters will clear anyway.
Also, Canonesses are great and priests, hospitallers and dialogus are useful and order agnostic. I don't see any good reason to no invest the 200pts necessary to put together 2 Melee Canoness, an imagifier, and one more support character.
This is how i'm shoe horning in triumph into my lists
supreme command of bloody rose canoness, missionary, triumph, done.
Question about the sanctum. It appears like roughly the right size to hide a knight in, so could I get a cover bonus if I hide a crusader behind it since he is 1/2 obscured?
I agree, Celestine should absolutely not be your warlord unless you have no other choice. Her warlord trait choice, is location-independent and works as long as the bearer is alive, so even if you want Beacon of Faith there's no reason not to give it to a Canoness babysitting Exorcists who is not going into harms way. In addition, Celestine is a big scary, pretty much a suicidal unit, and the enemy is going to want to kill her and benefits from directing firepower towards her. Adding on a victory point on her head is just giving the enemy a victory point for doing what they already were doing..
Then again she's been pretty much invulnerable for me unless I decide to kill her off. Denying 1 VP can be big.
Gearing up for when we get back to gaming...
This question is for those who play competitive ITC.
Now that ITC Championship rules have been updated, in many ways it is now easier to find ways to score the “kill” secondaries on most opponents.
Is it as crucial as before to try to deny those secondaries in our builds? “Butchers Bill” is pretty easy to get on Sisters, with infantry-heavy lists also giving up “Reaper” and vehicle heavy lists giving up “BGH” or “Marked for Death”.
Just wondering if I should still try to deny where I can and how are you building your lists?
davidgr33n wrote: Gearing up for when we get back to gaming...
This question is for those who play competitive ITC.
Now that ITC Championship rules have been updated, in many ways it is now easier to find ways to score the “kill” secondaries on most opponents.
Is it as crucial as before to try to deny those secondaries in our builds? “Butchers Bill” is pretty easy to get on Sisters, with infantry-heavy lists also giving up “Reaper” and vehicle heavy lists giving up “BGH” or “Marked for Death”.
Just wondering if I should still try to deny where I can and how are you building your lists?
Honestly, I don't know.
I wouldn't sacrifice an Exorcist or a Rhino to deny Big Game Hunter, but I'd take a couple less people from a squad to make The Reaper only score for 3.
Most of my lists will give up Head Hunter and Butcher's Bill pretty easy. Big Game Hunter and Marked For Death are the easiest to deny. Reaper can technically be picked up, but I'm practically tabled by that point anyway so it doesn't matter to me.
The only problem is modeling them to look unique instead of looking the same but with different arms, damn lazy-ass monopose models. But I'm working out ways to get around that.
Did you buy the army box? Do so, it will give you a second pose on Canoness and Repentia Superior.
Assuming you want only one Repentia Superior and buy a seperate Canoness you can make a third Canoness from the multipose Repentia Superior in the Repentia boxset and spare parts from the Canoness blister.
I have a Bloody Rose Canoness with a chainsword. Because I’m taking a Chainsword I can take a null rod for 12 pts.
Now pregame I take a relic which upgrades my Chainsword to the relic Beneficience sword.
Am i no longer able to take the Null Rod?
The pertinent wording is “If this model is equipped with 1 Chainsword, it can have a Brazier of Holy Fire or a Null Rod”.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a Bloody Rose Canoness with a chainsword. Because I’m taking a Chainsword I can take a null rod for 12 pts.
Now pregame I take a relic which upgrades my Chainsword to the relic Beneficience sword.
Am i no longer able to take the Null Rod?
The pertinent wording is “If this model is equipped with 1 Chainsword, it can have a Brazier of Holy Fire or a Null Rod”.
Beneficience is a chainsword.
If you want to look at it this way. First you choose your wargear according to the rules. Then when you are done you upgrade the wargear to relics as appropriate.
Frankly GW should never have forced this gak onto us to begin with, they dont even allow for kitbash, let alone conversions. I dislike the way they have restricted upgrade options to sets.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a Bloody Rose Canoness with a chainsword. Because I’m taking a Chainsword I can take a null rod for 12 pts.
Now pregame I take a relic which upgrades my Chainsword to the relic Beneficience sword.
Am i no longer able to take the Null Rod?
The pertinent wording is “If this model is equipped with 1 Chainsword, it can have a Brazier of Holy Fire or a Null Rod”.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a Bloody Rose Canoness with a chainsword. Because I’m taking a Chainsword I can take a null rod for 12 pts.
Now pregame I take a relic which upgrades my Chainsword to the relic Beneficience sword.
Am i no longer able to take the Null Rod?
The pertinent wording is “If this model is equipped with 1 Chainsword, it can have a Brazier of Holy Fire or a Null Rod”.
Relic chainsword is still chainsword.
And relics are chosen after army list is created as well.
Tel11 wrote: Question about the sanctum. It appears like roughly the right size to hide a knight in, so could I get a cover bonus if I hide a crusader behind it since he is 1/2 obscured?
It depends. The terrain rules a bit basic so you'll need to agree to the details beforehand.
Orlanth wrote: Frankly GW should never have forced this gak onto us to begin with, they dont even allow for kitbash, let alone conversions. I dislike the way they have restricted upgrade options to sets.
Did we ever figure out what horrendous game-breaking exploit they were trying to prevent with this goofiness?
Orlanth wrote: Frankly GW should never have forced this gak onto us to begin with, they dont even allow for kitbash, let alone conversions. I dislike the way they have restricted upgrade options to sets.
Did we ever figure out what horrendous game-breaking exploit they were trying to prevent with this goofiness?
No Model, no rules.
I don't think there is a single wargear option in the entire Sisters of Battle Codex that isn't either a distinct model, directly produced from the kit options, or produced by taking an option from one kit and combining with another (such as Power Maul for Sister Superiors is in the Retributor Kit while the Power Sword is in the Battle Sister Kit).
Orlanth wrote: Frankly GW should never have forced this gak onto us to begin with, they dont even allow for kitbash, let alone conversions. I dislike the way they have restricted upgrade options to sets.
Did we ever figure out what horrendous game-breaking exploit they were trying to prevent with this goofiness?
It's not about game balance, it's about copyright. In my limited understanding it works like this: GW only has copyright on models that they produce. If they produce the concept for a model, for example by writing rules and doing artwork of it, they do not have copyright on it and anyone can produce and sell a model matching that concept. This happened with ChapterHouse Studios.
Orlanth wrote: Frankly GW should never have forced this gak onto us to begin with, they dont even allow for kitbash, let alone conversions. I dislike the way they have restricted upgrade options to sets.
Did we ever figure out what horrendous game-breaking exploit they were trying to prevent with this goofiness?
No Model, no rules.
I don't think there is a single wargear option in the entire Sisters of Battle Codex that isn't either a distinct model, directly produced from the kit options, or produced by taking an option from one kit and combining with another (such as Power Maul for Sister Superiors is in the Retributor Kit while the Power Sword is in the Battle Sister Kit).
You can also caterwaul about a loadout being illegal until gw makes the loadout in question completely useless, but legal
Canoness [3 PL, 49pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Relic: Iron Surplice of St Istaela, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Elites +
Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Stoic
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
I dont know much about this army but a few observations, and tons of questions:
Units Mortifiers are absolutely bananas.nd used them as a counter charge unit. Assault Heavy Bolters are something else. Question though, the wording on the flails confused me a bit. With a pair of two, are they making (4x3 +1) or (4x3 +3) attacks? All the same my favorite unit from the game, they took pit a maxed sized Jackal Biker Unit and a Patriarch.
Do people run these in competitive or are they too fragile?
Judith allowing rerolls of 1 to wound was really nice, do people use her much? It seems like VH is the go to Order so I would guess not.
What's the standard load out for Retributors, and Dominions?
I sadly never used my repentia, just sat in their rhino with the missionary the entire game. How do they perform compared to things like mortifiers?
Army Rules The Martyrdom Sacred Rite was amazing... does it restrict a unit to doing a specific type of action? Like if a sister dies while within 1" of an enemy model, can she fire a bolter for her Martyrdom action?
Does an exorcist get to shoot it's guns profile (3d3), or just literally 1 shot? (Regarding Martyrdom).
I never rolled higher than a 4 for my miracle dice, and my inquisitor friend never stole any CP so that was a bit of a let down.
Anything here obviously bad? How would you improve the list?
Mortifiers are absolutely bananas.nd used them as a counter charge unit. Assault Heavy Bolters are something else. Question though, the wording on the flails confused me a bit. With a pair of two, are they making (4x3 +1) or (4x3 +3) attacks? All the same my favorite unit from the game, they took pit a maxed sized Jackal Biker Unit and a Patriarch.
For counter charge penitents with flails are even better. More durable, hit harder. Mortifiers are good when you try to rush forward with extra speed and advance+charge stratagem.
15 attacks total. check FAQ
Judith allowing rerolls of 1 to wound was really nice, do people use her much? It seems like VH is the go to Order so I would guess not.
If you use the Judith's order she's good. But as most are VH or bloody rose...
What's the standard load out for Retributors, and Dominions?
4xmulti melta or with ebon chalice 4xheavy flamer. For dominions 4xstorm bolters for blessed bolts.
I sadly never used my repentia, just sat in their rhino with the missionary the entire game. How do they perform compared to things like mortifiers?
Buffed up supreme tough target killer.
The Martyrdom Sacred Rite was amazing... does it restrict a unit to doing a specific type of action? Like if a sister dies while within 1" of an enemy model, can she fire a bolter for her Martyrdom action?
You shoot "as if shooting phase". Can't shoot in shooting phase within 1", can't shoot here.
Does an exorcist get to shoot it's guns profile (3d3), or just literally 1 shot? (Regarding Martyrdom).
Mortifiers are absolutely bananas.nd used them as a counter charge unit. Assault Heavy Bolters are something else. Question though, the wording on the flails confused me a bit. With a pair of two, are they making (4x3 +1) or (4x3 +3) attacks? All the same my favorite unit from the game, they took pit a maxed sized Jackal Biker Unit and a Patriarch.
For counter charge penitents with flails are even better. More durable, hit harder. Mortifiers are good when you try to rush forward with extra speed and advance+charge stratagem.
15 attacks total. check FAQ
Judith allowing rerolls of 1 to wound was really nice, do people use her much? It seems like VH is the go to Order so I would guess not.
If you use the Judith's order she's good. But as most are VH or bloody rose...
What's the standard load out for Retributors, and Dominions?
4xmulti melta or with ebon chalice 4xheavy flamer. For dominions 4xstorm bolters for blessed bolts.
I sadly never used my repentia, just sat in their rhino with the missionary the entire game. How do they perform compared to things like mortifiers?
Buffed up supreme tough target killer.
The Martyrdom Sacred Rite was amazing... does it restrict a unit to doing a specific type of action? Like if a sister dies while within 1" of an enemy model, can she fire a bolter for her Martyrdom action?
You shoot "as if shooting phase". Can't shoot in shooting phase within 1", can't shoot here.
Does an exorcist get to shoot it's guns profile (3d3), or just literally 1 shot? (Regarding Martyrdom).
Gun is full profile. Melee is one attack.
I've always shot with my Bolt Pistol for Spirit of the Martyr in melee...
Other than that, Junith is an amazing model with good rules that's locked to terrible Order rules.
Mortifiers/Pen. Engines are great, but often end up serving as distraction Carnifexes(Which they're perfectly fine at doing) and are (4+1)×3=15 attacks each with flails.
Various ideas for Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer Retributors exist, depending on how suicidal and how burney you want to be with them. But as was said, 4× (blessed) Storm Bolters are the only real use for Doms at the moment.
Repentia are good, amazing when properly supported. GSC generally don't have a good target for them in my experience though. They want to carve up the biggest, meanest thing they can.
ah well of course pistol is fair. Do I really have to start phrasing every exception? As shooting. Whatever you shoot in shooting phase you shoot. What you can't shoot in shooting phase you don't. Let's not no go for obvious. Next one you are going to say you shoot 2 shots with half the range with rapid fire 1 gun?
tneva82 wrote: ah well of course pistol is fair. Do I really have to start phrasing every exception? As shooting. Whatever you shoot in shooting phase you shoot. What you can't shoot in shooting phase you don't. Let's not no go for obvious. Next one you are going to say you shoot 2 shots with half the range with rapid fire 1 gun?
In this case, it's exceptional and an almost counter intuitive rule. So it's worth pointing out, given it's almost always our better option.
tneva82 wrote: ah well of course pistol is fair. Do I really have to start phrasing every exception? As shooting. Whatever you shoot in shooting phase you shoot. What you can't shoot in shooting phase you don't. Let's not no go for obvious. Next one you are going to say you shoot 2 shots with half the range with rapid fire 1 gun?
In this case, it's exceptional and an almost counter intuitive rule. So it's worth pointing out, given it's almost always our better option.
Also don't forget about grenades
I'm not sure on this one but because each model is being chosen to shoot with individually as it dies you may be able to throw a hailstorm of them, I'd need to check exact wording
Who has a strong opinion on Bloody Rose Celestian Superior loadout? In particular I'm thinking combi-melta vs. plasma pistol, but I'm open to others. She'll be in short range and then melee, so those both have arguments to be made. Also chainsword vs. maul?
The champion of some of the most iconic Warhammer graphic novels ever written, Ephrael Stern is getting a model of her own – just in time to test her powers against the greatest threat the Imperium has ever faced. She’s not alone – you’ll be able to field her alongside the Sisters of Battle, or with any Imperium force, and she’ll be accompanied by her Harlequin companion, Kyganil.
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Or Inqusitor/Fallen get in clause.
IIRC she is on the run?
ERJAK wrote: ...will she be able to use miracle dice? Or 'adepta sororitas'/OoML buffs and stratagems? Sacred rites?
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Or Inqusitor/Fallen get in clause.
IIRC she is on the run?
That's largely what I was thinking of with mercenary rules. Ability to take her in imperium detachment and not break order/regiment/whatever. Wouldn't get her order bonus herself outside OoML
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Her having the Imperium keyword and a free Auxiliary Support detachment is all you need to be able to take her in any Imperium army.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Gonna be honest, not sure i like the model. the cape flying up just looks bad imo.
Yeah, same. At least (in one area) I would assume the head is separate, so I'll probably try and switch it out for a normal sisters one, if I ever get her that is. Cape is another story.
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Her having the Imperium keyword and a free Auxiliary Support detachment is all you need to be able to take her in any Imperium army.
That sounded bit more than that though. Why make such a point?
Besides eldars dont have imperium keyword...
Also fluffwise isn't she more of lone crusader type of character rather than permanent member of OoML?
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Or Inqusitor/Fallen get in clause.
IIRC she is on the run?
ERJAK wrote: ...will she be able to use miracle dice? Or 'adepta sororitas'/OoML buffs and stratagems? Sacred rites?
Depends on the Keywords I would think
This was more of a 'will GW allow this' than a 'how do mechanics work?' type thing.
davidgr33n wrote: So Ephrael Stern and her Harlequin sidekick Kyganil, coming to an Adepta Sororitas army near you...
I wonder if she will still have Our Matyred Lady keyword?
Based on community article she can be taken in imperium army. Sounds like you dont even need sister army to field her. Maybe some sort of mercenery ability to be fielded in any imperium detachment?
Her having the Imperium keyword and a free Auxiliary Support detachment is all you need to be able to take her in any Imperium army.
That sounded bit more than that though. Why make such a point?
Besides eldars dont have imperium keyword...
Also fluffwise isn't she more of lone crusader type of character rather than permanent member of OoML?
She's still a battle sister though, there's no good reason why she shouldn't have specifically sisters related rules.
Hopefully WAY better rules than the 1d4chan homebrew ones that have a 80-90pt model kicking around at 200pts.
2-3 casts with a small bonus and her own table of powers is probably assured(which would be awesome for sisters). Some sort of melee power boost is likely, I would expect either flat reroll wounds like a zephyrim or some other buff that puts her around S5 equivalent. I'm also hoping for a sisters specific aura. Reroll wounds rolls of 1 would be awesome. I would also be very surprised if she doesn't resurrect.
For points I'm figuring like 120-150. Cheap enough to be solid but expensive enough to not be worth it for armies her buff aura doesn't benefit.
MacPhail wrote: Who has a strong opinion on Bloody Rose Celestian Superior loadout?
Oh hi there. I'm one of the people who pushed hardest for how awesome they are from the start!
What their actual loadout is is entirely up to your needs as an army. My army (which is pure BR, by the by), I decided to spread my meltaguns out among my BSS, and focus my BR Celestians as melee. So my BR Celestians have storm bolters, a combiflamer, and a power maul at their heaviest loadout-- that said, I'm pondering swapping to power axes when you account for the +1 strength aura still letting them have five strength for killing marines. But Power Mauls allow them to function more independently.
MacPhail wrote: Who has a strong opinion on Bloody Rose Celestian Superior loadout?
Oh hi there. I'm one of the people who pushed hardest for how awesome they are from the start!
What their actual loadout is is entirely up to your needs as an army. My army (which is pure BR, by the by), I decided to spread my meltaguns out among my BSS, and focus my BR Celestians as melee. So my BR Celestians have storm bolters, a combiflamer, and a power maul at their heaviest loadout-- that said, I'm pondering swapping to power axes when you account for the +1 strength aura still letting them have five strength for killing marines. But Power Mauls allow them to function more independently.
Why would take a combiflamer over a handflamer? In BR Flamers and Handflamers do the exact same amount of damage to marine equivalent targets. The extra 2 inches of range is mostly canceled out by being able to use the pistol in melee. The boltgun part of the combiflamer is only a benefit over the hand flamer when in range of the flamer, so you're basically paying 7 points for 2 BS 4 boltgun shots once per game.
While price is steep it's bit weird to claim d6 S3 -1 does exact same damage as d6 S4 -1 don't you think? S boost doesn't matter vs T1(non existant I think), T5 and T9+. Any other target S4 wounds better than S3.
Plus extra range matters very much for overwatch. Hand flamer is easy to charge safely without being hit by it. 8" means chance of failed charge increases so either they risk failing charge or they take the overwatch.
tneva82 wrote: While price is steep it's bit weird to claim d6 S3 -1 does exact same damage as d6 S4 -1 don't you think? S boost doesn't matter vs T1(non existant I think), T5 and T9+. Any other target S4 wounds better than S3.
where are you getting the -1 on the regular flamer
tneva82 wrote: While price is steep it's bit weird to claim d6 S3 -1 does exact same damage as d6 S4 -1 don't you think? S boost doesn't matter vs T1(non existant I think), T5 and T9+. Any other target S4 wounds better than S3.
where are you getting the -1 on the regular flamer
Yeah, I was curious about that too.
Because if you use the flamer every other SoB player gets, it's 3.5*.5*.333 against marines for a flamer and 3.5*.333*.5 for a handflamer.
Now I'm no Number Surgeon but those seem like the same number to me.
And does it really matter all that much for overwatch? Neither option is enough to get your opponent to increase their charge range for the sake of avoiding overwatch. Both do...essentially irrelevant damage. They're going to get as close as they can, so you'll still be getting overwatch with the hf the majority of the time.
If the regular flamer had range enough to hit things out of deepstrike, sure the overwatch would be more useful, but it doesn't so its very nearly irrelevant.
Flamers in general are pretty bad, but at least the hand flamer is appropriately costed. Heavy Flamers are about 20-25% overcosted and flamers and combiflamers are almost twice as expensive as they should be.
ERJAK wrote: Why would take a combiflamer over a handflamer?
Ability to fire the attached boltgun, mostly. Celestians with the way I'm running my army always reroll all to-hit rolls, so two more shots before the charge usually means two more hits even with the... IIRC -1 penalty, from firing both weapons at once?
BR celestians are decent close combat combatants, but they still want to cause as many potential wounds BEFORE they charge as they can.
davidgr33n wrote: Gearing up for when we get back to gaming...
This question is for those who play competitive ITC.
Now that ITC Championship rules have been updated, in many ways it is now easier to find ways to score the “kill” secondaries on most opponents.
Is it as crucial as before to try to deny those secondaries in our builds? “Butchers Bill” is pretty easy to get on Sisters, with infantry-heavy lists also giving up “Reaper” and vehicle heavy lists giving up “BGH” or “Marked for Death”.
Just wondering if I should still try to deny where I can and how are you building your lists?
Well I think denial is always a good strategy to employ in your list. I use 15 sister squads, for example, Exorcists are definitely not easy to kill (Valorous Hear in my case) and Celestine is no longer a liability (and one could argue she never was, truly, given how much she can do for you.) My Retributors are 8, my dominion are 8, so i pack in ablative wounds wherever I can to force the issue.
I see zero downside to limiting enemy kills every round.
davidgr33n wrote: I have a Bloody Rose Canoness with a chainsword. Because I’m taking a Chainsword I can take a null rod for 12 pts.
Now pregame I take a relic which upgrades my Chainsword to the relic Beneficience sword.
Am i no longer able to take the Null Rod?
The pertinent wording is “If this model is equipped with 1 Chainsword, it can have a Brazier of Holy Fire or a Null Rod”.
Canoness [3 PL, 49pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Relic: Iron Surplice of St Istaela, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Elites +
Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Stoic
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
I dont know much about this army but a few observations, and tons of questions:
Units Mortifiers are absolutely bananas.nd used them as a counter charge unit. Assault Heavy Bolters are something else. Question though, the wording on the flails confused me a bit. With a pair of two, are they making (4x3 +1) or (4x3 +3) attacks? All the same my favorite unit from the game, they took pit a maxed sized Jackal Biker Unit and a Patriarch.
Do people run these in competitive or are they too fragile?
Judith allowing rerolls of 1 to wound was really nice, do people use her much? It seems like VH is the go to Order so I would guess not.
What's the standard load out for Retributors, and Dominions?
I sadly never used my repentia, just sat in their rhino with the missionary the entire game. How do they perform compared to things like mortifiers?
Army Rules The Martyrdom Sacred Rite was amazing... does it restrict a unit to doing a specific type of action? Like if a sister dies while within 1" of an enemy model, can she fire a bolter for her Martyrdom action?
Does an exorcist get to shoot it's guns profile (3d3), or just literally 1 shot? (Regarding Martyrdom).
I never rolled higher than a 4 for my miracle dice, and my inquisitor friend never stole any CP so that was a bit of a let down.
Anything here obviously bad? How would you improve the list?
Im really glad to hear some reports from the front about mortifiers. Havent tried them yet but i am definitely getting me some. I think the concensus has been that those points are fragile and that they will be a feast or famine unit, meaning they will absolutely dominate a game or be entirely dead turn one. An opponent who knows what they can do will focus the mand so the questions are many: do you typically play with good terrain? what types of players do you see normally? Etc... But I think they are UNDERUSED. Originally people were talking about maxing them out, but then they made them four man units in the "corrections" and so when you go from 6 to 4, the math changes pretty drastically. At 6, they are really enticing. At 4.... It becomes a choice right? But they arent (werent) being seen competitively BEFORE the lockdowns.
Valorous Heat does a lot for your army. I have, but have not used, Judith so there again, excited to hear reports from the front about her. I feel like she is the "Jumppack canones" that everyone always wanted. She comes heavily armed, that's for sure. she doesn't work on the stompybots, but she can certainly help the Seraphim for example or the Sisters Repentia who typically walk up the board in Rhinos (although I think most would agree they are better as Bloody Rose, the fact that Repentia hit on 4's can make Junith improve them dramatically outside of Bloody Rose). I think Junith is very good, but I think because she isnt in the meta-preferred Convictions, she might see sparse use in competitive play, but that is no statement about her.
Retributors are ususally multi-melta now, and the Dominion are still usually storm bolters. I think that the Dominion carry out a really important function in a Sisters list and I will stuff 5-8 of them in there any chance I get because like the Kroot in my T'au Empire army i consider their role essential in repelling the Possessed bombs and other meta lists of the world. You just need them.
Retributors serve a role that Moritifers do not so it depeneds on the list. I take one unit because of the cool stratagem. I use Argent Shroud units which is a true rarity in the meta but it reaps dividends.
Martyrdom wont let you do what you cant normally do per se. So if you are within 1" you could fire a pistol if you wanted.
The exorcist fires 3d3 shots. It is one weapon.
dont underestimate the value of a Dialogus. Miracle Dice can be massaged!
As for improvements, the list is illegal. See the BIG FAQ and the rule of 3 there. I suppose if you aren't using points or matched play rules you could do this. But in Matched play (ITC or not) there is a limit of 3 uses of any one datasheet. That would be easy to fix. but it is something to note.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Who has a strong opinion on Bloody Rose Celestian Superior loadout? In particular I'm thinking combi-melta vs. plasma pistol, but I'm open to others. She'll be in short range and then melee, so those both have arguments to be made. Also chainsword vs. maul?
Canoness [3 PL, 49pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Relic: Iron Surplice of St Istaela, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
+ Elites +
Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Stoic
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
I dont know much about this army but a few observations, and tons of questions:
Units Mortifiers are absolutely bananas.nd used them as a counter charge unit. Assault Heavy Bolters are something else. Question though, the wording on the flails confused me a bit. With a pair of two, are they making (4x3 +1) or (4x3 +3) attacks? All the same my favorite unit from the game, they took pit a maxed sized Jackal Biker Unit and a Patriarch.
Do people run these in competitive or are they too fragile?
Judith allowing rerolls of 1 to wound was really nice, do people use her much? It seems like VH is the go to Order so I would guess not.
What's the standard load out for Retributors, and Dominions?
I sadly never used my repentia, just sat in their rhino with the missionary the entire game. How do they perform compared to things like mortifiers?
Army Rules The Martyrdom Sacred Rite was amazing... does it restrict a unit to doing a specific type of action? Like if a sister dies while within 1" of an enemy model, can she fire a bolter for her Martyrdom action?
Does an exorcist get to shoot it's guns profile (3d3), or just literally 1 shot? (Regarding Martyrdom).
I never rolled higher than a 4 for my miracle dice, and my inquisitor friend never stole any CP so that was a bit of a let down.
Anything here obviously bad? How would you improve the list?
Im really glad to hear some reports from the front about mortifiers. Havent tried them yet but i am definitely getting me some. I think the concensus has been that those points are fragile and that they will be a feast or famine unit, meaning they will absolutely dominate a game or be entirely dead turn one. An opponent who knows what they can do will focus the mand so the questions are many: do you typically play with good terrain? what types of players do you see normally? Etc... But I think they are UNDERUSED. Originally people were talking about maxing them out, but then they made them four man units in the "corrections" and so when you go from 6 to 4, the math changes pretty drastically. At 6, they are really enticing. At 4.... It becomes a choice right? But they arent (werent) being seen competitively BEFORE the lockdowns.
Valorous Heat does a lot for your army. I have, but have not used, Judith so there again, excited to hear reports from the front about her. I feel like she is the "Jumppack canones" that everyone always wanted. She comes heavily armed, that's for sure. she doesn't work on the stompybots, but she can certainly help the Seraphim for example or the Sisters Repentia who typically walk up the board in Rhinos (although I think most would agree they are better as Bloody Rose, the fact that Repentia hit on 4's can make Junith improve them dramatically outside of Bloody Rose). I think Junith is very good, but I think because she isnt in the meta-preferred Convictions, she might see sparse use in competitive play, but that is no statement about her.
Retributors are ususally multi-melta now, and the Dominion are still usually storm bolters. I think that the Dominion carry out a really important function in a Sisters list and I will stuff 5-8 of them in there any chance I get because like the Kroot in my T'au Empire army i consider their role essential in repelling the Possessed bombs and other meta lists of the world. You just need them.
Retributors serve a role that Moritifers do not so it depeneds on the list. I take one unit because of the cool stratagem. I use Argent Shroud units which is a true rarity in the meta but it reaps dividends.
Martyrdom wont let you do what you cant normally do per se. So if you are within 1" you could fire a pistol if you wanted.
The exorcist fires 3d3 shots. It is one weapon.
dont underestimate the value of a Dialogus. Miracle Dice can be massaged!
As for improvements, the list is illegal. See the BIG FAQ and the rule of 3 there. I suppose if you aren't using points or matched play rules you could do this. But in Matched play (ITC or not) there is a limit of 3 uses of any one datasheet. That would be easy to fix. but it is something to note.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: Who has a strong opinion on Bloody Rose Celestian Superior loadout? In particular I'm thinking combi-melta vs. plasma pistol, but I'm open to others. She'll be in short range and then melee, so those both have arguments to be made. Also chainsword vs. maul?
If you have points, the maul.
Thanks for all the responses! Good to hear about mortifiers being potentially interesting.
Lastly what about the list was wrong? I don't believe I took x4 of anything.
Lastly what about the list was wrong? I don't believe I took x4 of anything.
Oh after looking at it again i see that its just the way it displays made it look that way on casual glance. Ignore that. Battlescribe is such a garbage program when it comes to its output. I wish theyd just do a version like they did for Sigmar.
Thanks for all the responses! Good to hear about mortifiers being potentially interesting.
Yes, they definitely are and i definitely plan to give them a work out. I think they are such a potent unit for counter charge but what makes that even more true is how many armies in the current meta are ultra aggressive. It kind of turns the meta against itself when you have Mortifiers/Repentia. I think the Repentia could be the number one argument against mortifiers, honestly, since they are so potent as well. Its simply cheaper to bring them to bear. However, its not a ton cheaper when you add the rhino in. So You can make the argument that they are kind of the same unit in a lot of ways. The Mortifiers play much stronger against a melee heavy enemy, and those arent rare these days. Mortifiers are more ikely to draw more heavy fire and the Repentias will draw small arms fire so that becomes something to consider right? Small arms fire just wont do it against the Mortifiers and so it does draw off some fire from Exorcists. So the Mortifiers could be good in a list that features 3 exorcists simply because it forces the choice and its not an enviable choice. On the other hand, for one round...the first...its not a choice. For one round they can still focus the exorcist if they go first and then the Mortifiers and then it could be bad. So it puts a premium on going first. Repentia can be taken in numbers and hidden so this problem isnt as pronounced for them.
So on balance the Repentia and Mortifiers very much carry out similar roles, but Repentia tend to win the comparison game in general, while mortifiers win it hands down in more specific cases like alpha melee heavy enemies. Blood Angels would be in serious trouble if you took a bevy of these bad boys, while Imperial Fists would likely eat them all. Orks would hate the Mortifiers (most builds) while the T'au Empire would eat them (but to be fair, optimized Tau will make a mockery of a lot of things and are sort of a spoiler army, but you really do have to have a plan for them and the Mortifiers cannot be the only things charging against T'au).
Tell us about the battle itself. I didnt see any details.
So it was vs a GSC list, opponent was also trying them out for the first time.
He brought three giant blobs of Atalan Jackals and 3 maxed ridge runner squads, plus then a host of special characters. Two patriarchs. Basically min acolyte squads.
He got turn 1 and decided to take it aggressively. I don't think that was the best idea, but hey.
Deployment was table length. Very advantageous for him. He was evenly spread out. I had from left to right: Retributors + repentia on the left flank, sister screens with exorcist castle behind them in the center, junith, dominions and mortifiers along with the inquistor over on the right.
Turn 1:
Opponent Turn 1: He popped one exorcist, that then got spirit of the martyr to fire back. He zoomed up with everything. Also then pulled off a turn 1 charge against two battle sister squads with 2/3 of his ridgrunners, in an attempt to tag exorcists... didn't work. Don't know why he set them up in front as opposed to the jackals.
My turn 1: I fall back with 1 squad and take out the 3rd ridgerunner squad. I bring the one I fell back from down to 2w and 1 model. Mortifiers roll up and advance + shoot + charge to obliterate one of the jackal squads.
Junith charges the remaining ridgrunner on 2w and kills it. Through some crafty consolidate moves I'm able to place her back into safety. I burned most of my cp.
Turn 2
Opponent Turn 2: His turn two was a big whiff. His kelermorph popped up and took a battle sister squad down to 1 model, and his patriarch charged into the mortifiers, seeking vengeance for the bikers... ending up with 1 mortifier surving that combat, and his patriarch at 2w remaining.
Storm bolters prove amazing as the dominions completely obliterate an ambushing acolyte squad in overwatch. Some lucky rolling.
And then .. that's about it. I ended up losing no units. He earned a few recon points I think.
My turn 2: Killed his patriarch and finished off the last ridgrunners squad. He conceded being left with two biker squads one or two acolyte squads still in reserve and a smattering of characters I don't know much about.
I still had almost everything, sans some battle sisters and an exorcist.
Again wr were both trying out new armies, so looking back i think he could have played it way more evasive and less smash and grab.
---
Incidentally I am going to play against space wolves soon. Different list, dropping mortifiers in favor of two repentia squads. 2 OML batallions and 1 bloody rose vanguard. 2 dominion squads, 1 retributor multimelta squad.
After the first game I'm in love with storm bolters. I think what I like most about sisters is in terms of points it feels like nothing is wasted. 49pts for a very sturdy 5-gal troop squad with two storm bolters? Amazing. T3, WS4? Who cares, they are camping objectives in cover with their 3+/6++ (which can be in perfect circumstances 2+/4++).
I'm coming from tyranids, csm/knights/daemons and necrons. It feels like sisters is an army of specialists, where you don't have to pay undesired stat-tax on useless units.
@Jancoran: Nice! Is there a lot of learning curve to get used to the TTS interface and controls and loading the models, etc. or is it pretty easy to pick up and use? I downloaded the game and even found some files for some of my armies, but I haven't even tried setting up a game yet.
Also, huge noob question here: If I have a unit of Battle Sisters in a Repressor, can I use their Simulacrum or Cherub abilities while they are embarked? I know you can't target the unit with any Strats, but since those things are wargear, I figured maybe they work differently.
I think dracpanzer is half correct. You cannot use a Cherub for a unit in a Repressor. Those have to be used at the beginning of the phase, when the unit is not eligible to do anything because its not on the battlefield.
The Simulacrum should work fine because it happens when you are actually utilizing the unit via the 'fire point' rule and thus is an ability of the unit have a authorization to use.
alextroy wrote: I think dracpanzer is half correct. You cannot use a Cherub for a unit in a Repressor. Those have to be used at the beginning of the phase, when the unit is not eligible to do anything because its not on the battlefield.
The Simulacrum should work fine because it happens when you are actually utilizing the unit via the 'fire point' rule and thus is an ability of the unit have a authorization to use.
my understanding is that no, you may not use anything but weapons with firepoints. The firepoints give you permission to shoot, but no permission to use other items/wargear options. (for example, no brazier of holy fire can be used since its not a weapon)
CoteazRox wrote: Note that the requirement for both the Simulacrum and the Cherubs is only that the unit *has* them.
Additionally, the Cherubs does not count as a model for any rules purposes.
So I would argue that both can be used.
Read your Cherub rules. They all require you to use the Cherub at the start of the phase. At that point, you have no 'access' to the unit that is off the table to allow you to pick the unit or the Cherub.
The Simulacrum is a passive ability. It allows you to use a Miracle Dice with the unit even if you have used one that phase. You don't need to select it, just have it.
I only use the Armorium Cherubs with Retributors, which are used after that unit has shot and was not thinking of the start of phase for Incensor Cherubs.
@Melissa - my (wishful) thinking was that since the Cherub rule specifically excepts them from being a model and all rules applying to them, that it would not be restricted by the transport rules in the main rule book.
ZergSmasher wrote: @Jancoran: Nice! Is there a lot of learning curve to get used to the TTS interface and controls and loading the models, etc. or is it pretty easy to pick up and use? I downloaded the game and even found some files for some of my armies, but I haven't even tried setting up a game yet.
Also, huge noob question here: If I have a unit of Battle Sisters in a Repressor, can I use their Simulacrum or Cherub abilities while they are embarked? I know you can't target the unit with any Strats, but since those things are wargear, I figured maybe they work differently.
Nothing can be used while embarked, at all.
TTS is not super easy to get started so you neeeeed to be patient while you giure it out but...there is now a VERY nice way to handle it for 40K. I will post it here, but only a little tinkering will get you ready to rock.
Quick Army generation in Tabletop Simulator (TTS):
Quick Army generation in Tabletop Simulator (TTS):
1. Make list in battlescribe
2. Save as roster file (rosz)
3. Import the list into battlescribe2tts.net, and get a code.
4. Search the TTS workshop for your army models and save.
5. Search the TTS workshop for battlescribe2tts and save.
6. Create game with your army models.
7. Grab a sample of each model used in the list. Drag to select the models, and right click and Save object on the models.
8. Load battlescribe2tts. Import your saved object model examples. (I generally have to switch to a 6x4 board as the models fall off)
9. Paste code from battlescribe2tts.net into the text box and Submit Code.
10. Click on the description of the model and then the model to link them. Success is a purple colored text box.
11. Generate army. Save the army as a Saved Object by selecting the army and right clicking on a model and choosing Save Object
12. Your army is ready for battle!
Battlescribe2tts.net, not .com
ZergSmasher wrote: @Jancoran: Nice! Is there a lot of learning curve to get used to the TTS interface and controls and loading the models, etc. or is it pretty easy to pick up and use? I downloaded the game and even found some files for some of my armies, but I haven't even tried setting up a game yet.
Also, huge noob question here: If I have a unit of Battle Sisters in a Repressor, can I use their Simulacrum or Cherub abilities while they are embarked? I know you can't target the unit with any Strats, but since those things are wargear, I figured maybe they work differently.
ZergSmasher wrote: @Jancoran: Nice! Is there a lot of learning curve to get used to the TTS interface and controls and loading the models, etc. or is it pretty easy to pick up and use? I downloaded the game and even found some files for some of my armies, but I haven't even tried setting up a game yet.
Also, huge noob question here: If I have a unit of Battle Sisters in a Repressor, can I use their Simulacrum or Cherub abilities while they are embarked? I know you can't target the unit with any Strats, but since those things are wargear, I figured maybe they work differently.
Nothing can be used while embarked, at all.
Pretty sure guns can.
that specific exception exists for open topped etc... So sure. He asked about an ability. Context is King. Pedantism is well...pedantism.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So ive been able to keep my skills sharp using the Tabletop Simulator.
One of the things I am CONSTANTLY forgetting is my invulnerable saves (well, above the 6+ i mean). I mean you'd THINK that was important to remember but here we are, talking about how i don't remember.
Then again, I have repeatedly forgotten to put my Deep Strikers on the board in like 2/3 of my games, so this is not really new for me.
So i already understand how absurd it is to be forgetting something that basic... But... Do you guys use any kind of tool to remind yourselves of gak like this? I dropped my Seraphim from my list simply because i was forgetting them so often. It's a running joke in my club at this point. It hasn't hurt my chances as often as it should have but it was annoying enough to stop using them.
Now that I am planning to use more of them again, I am sort of thinking "dude... You know you're going to forget to deploy them..."
So what do you guys typically do to recall in game stuff you'd normally forget.
Oh and answers like "I never forget anything", while they might make you feel good inside somehow, probably aren't real germane. =)
I run a cheat sheet with applicable unit stats in a condensed format. Which I think a lot of people do, the other side is a roster that has units bunched for my typical deployments, applicable relics and auras colored to show which units I intend to have deployed to benefit from each aura.
I then have a turn by turn script with specific units, strategems and the like grouped together. My inferno pistol seraphim are always scripted for one squad using the descent strategem in turn two and turn three.
If I read the script, I usually dont forget.
Sisters are easy though, my GSC roster and script is far more complex.
Thank you for the suggestions thus far. Can you explain what you mean by bunched together on the back of the sheet? And the coloring you mention? perhaps a pic to go along with it?
Jancoran wrote: Thank you for the suggestions thus far. Can you explain what you mean by bunched together on the back of the sheet? And the coloring you mention? perhaps a pic to go along with it?
the "Seraphim" phase" was funny.
60 point font might might get my attention.
Don't have a Sisters army (yet), but for my Ultramarines, I have note cards that I place in front of me with things like "Devastator Doctrine" and what it does, or army wide abilities, or etc. etc. It really helps me.
Jancoran wrote: Thank you for the suggestions thus far. Can you explain what you mean by bunched together on the back of the sheet? And the coloring you mention? perhaps a pic to go along with it?
the "Seraphim" phase" was funny.
60 point font might might get my attention.
I build it in excel.
If I want a specific Canoness, an
Imagifer say a 15 girl BSS squad and three Exorcists to group together for both the auras and Valorous Heart Convictions I will have those units next to each other on the list.
The Unit fields would be colored dark grey and the relics auras and the like the characters bring would be included along with the bundle.
A Bloody Rose Repentia group would be blocked together with characters, relics, auras convictions etc. but the fields would be colored red.
Reserve units would be grouped the same way but they would be listed in the turn by turn script. Sorry, nowhere near a computer or my armies at the moment.
So what do you guys typically do to recall in game stuff you'd normally forget.
Oh and answers like "I never forget anything", while they might make you feel good inside somehow, probably aren't real germane. =)
and...go.
I don't have a good solution for the invuls issue, but for deep strikers, I find that actually having them on the board (usually along an edge that isn't seeing active play) tends to help me remember.
In my experience, I'm usually better off forgetting things than spending time checking cheat sheets. For me, my Sisters lists tend to take games turn 4 and getting the game to that turn tends to be much more impactful than forgetting a miracle dice or not remembering litanies. With some armies like Guard, Nids, and even certain Eldar lists taking a seeming eternity to play out their turns, I just don't have time to consult cheat sheets.
If I'm doing something like going to a large tournament where the quality of players improves enough that I probably will win or lose games based on forgetting a single miracle dice, I tend to just play my tournament list exclusively(as in stop playing other games like AoS entirely) for 2-3 months before the event. With that much prep, plus the amount of time I spend obsessively reading and rereading rules while I'm tweaking the list before the 'lock-in' period, I rarely forget things.
ERJAK wrote: In my experience, I'm usually better off forgetting things than spending time checking cheat sheets. For me, my Sisters lists tend to take games turn 4 and getting the game to that turn tends to be much more impactful than forgetting a miracle dice or not remembering litanies. With some armies like Guard, Nids, and even certain Eldar lists taking a seeming eternity to play out their turns, I just don't have time to consult cheat sheets.
If I'm doing something like going to a large tournament where the quality of players improves enough that I probably will win or lose games based on forgetting a single miracle dice, I tend to just play my tournament list exclusively(as in stop playing other games like AoS entirely) for 2-3 months before the event. With that much prep, plus the amount of time I spend obsessively reading and rereading rules while I'm tweaking the list before the 'lock-in' period, I rarely forget things.
Totally understandable. But I think it's important to note that the goal of cheat sheets is to reinforce the same actions over and over so that you eventually no longer need the cheat sheet. You're basically achieving the same goal in your tournament prep approach.
Still slowly painting my sisters but trying to put together a full list so I can start playing in TTS.
I want to take the battle sanctum for one of my detachments, and then probably BR and VH for the two orders. Setting up VH in cover behind the massive sanctum sounds pretty sweet and BR repentia are hard to turn down. Detachments would be probably battalion/battalion or battalion/brigade, with brigade obviously giving the nice CP boost but also upping the total BSS required to 9, which is a lot. So maybe sacrificing the CP to have those points available to spend elsewhere would be better?
Maybe go for brigade and vanquard? More CP than twin battalion and BR doesn't help BSS that much anyway. Elites is where main bulk of BR power comes from with honourable mention to FA.
My blue turquoise/tan paint scheme is a bit more effort than I anticipated, enough so that I'm not sure about painting an entire Sisters army with it, but I could live with doing just the stuff from the box set. Would a Bloody Rose Vanguard detachment do well tacked onto a Guard (my main) army?
Arcanis161 wrote: My blue turquoise/tan paint scheme is a bit more effort than I anticipated, enough so that I'm not sure about painting an entire Sisters army with it, but I could live with doing just the stuff from the box set. Would a Bloody Rose Vanguard detachment do well tacked onto a Guard (my main) army?
A BR Vanguard is probably Sister's greatest offering to a AM/Guard army.
And maybe there's a way to make your colour scheme easier! Idk I make up my painting as I go along.
ERJAK wrote: In my experience, I'm usually better off forgetting things than spending time checking cheat sheets.
I use them mostly to remind myself while learning a new list. After the first couple games I usually have it locked down, beyond that it matures to if you forgot it, your fault.
I put the idea up just to point out how I try to keep from forgetting all the little bits of an army list I haven't played much.
Jancoran wrote: Thank you for the suggestions thus far. Can you explain what you mean by bunched together on the back of the sheet? And the coloring you mention? perhaps a pic to go along with it?
the "Seraphim" phase" was funny.
60 point font might might get my attention.
I build it in excel.
If I want a specific Canoness, an
Imagifer say a 15 girl BSS squad and three Exorcists to group together for both the auras and Valorous Heart Convictions I will have those units next to each other on the list.
The Unit fields would be colored dark grey and the relics auras and the like the characters bring would be included along with the bundle.
A Bloody Rose Repentia group would be blocked together with characters, relics, auras convictions etc. but the fields would be colored red.
Reserve units would be grouped the same way but they would be listed in the turn by turn script. Sorry, nowhere near a computer or my armies at the moment.
Oh I see. Okay. I kind of did that once when i had a bunch of rhinos and i put "rhino boxes" on my Word document with the units inside as they would deploy, but you're taking that concept a step further and having the rhinos that would travel together being together on your sheet. Is that correct?
Like most players, I have an "ideal plan" in mind and then a plan B once I see the board. The terrain plays really large in my way of thinking and I tend to use it as an extension of my army, mentally. But it makes sense to tier the Deep strikes, if any, and how they will fall.
I'm still a little unclear as to whether Im understanding the color scheme, but still it makes me want to go back to the whole "rhino Boxes" idea. My new iteration of the list (trying Bloody Rose for the first time) does have three Rhinos... and a ton of Deep Strikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vortenger wrote: Can't lie, I'd love to see an example of your roster list now too.
ditto
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: In my experience, I'm usually better off forgetting things than spending time checking cheat sheets. For me, my Sisters lists tend to take games turn 4 and getting the game to that turn tends to be much more impactful than forgetting a miracle dice or not remembering litanies. With some armies like Guard, Nids, and even certain Eldar lists taking a seeming eternity to play out their turns, I just don't have time to consult cheat sheets.
If I'm doing something like going to a large tournament where the quality of players improves enough that I probably will win or lose games based on forgetting a single miracle dice, I tend to just play my tournament list exclusively(as in stop playing other games like AoS entirely) for 2-3 months before the event. With that much prep, plus the amount of time I spend obsessively reading and rereading rules while I'm tweaking the list before the 'lock-in' period, I rarely forget things.
I am a tournament player, so everything matters. The quality of my opponents, as i enumerated before is very very high. Jason Byrd, Chuck arnett, Jason Rider, Zachary Sandery, Paul Winters, Zachary Nelson, Collin Sherman,Sean Morgan, and the list goes on. All are people in my regular meta. So I really...really... need to know my stuff. Even non-tournament games are trials by fire at times; which is not a complaint, just an observation.
Another limiting factor is that I play a large number of armies. Like for example if someone comes over to my house to play, I just let my opponent pick which army they want to fight so that it will be more fun. So I am constantly playing various rules and that leads me to learn them better, but also seems to make me forget mine. I'm sort of famous for not knowing what army I will play until the night before the event, Hehehe.
But last year I made a concerted effort to play Sisters (and then ended up unable to go to LVO, dang it, or I would have been #1 in z world for Sisters, ended up #3!). I tried really hard to rep the Sisters all year and was rather embarrassed that I forgot my Seraphim like...2/3 o the time. It did cost me. Perhaps had i done just slightly better, I might not have even needed the LVO.
And now that all this CoronaVirus stuff happened, I have time to ponder my approach without any pressure or worrying about which armies to play. So I have been trying to better myself on TableTop simulator. Ergo my questions. I'll be damned if i wasn't a hair from forgetting my Seraphim again in my last game because they were just out of sight and no cheat sheet.
Le sigh.
I really need to figure out what this weird mental block is all about! Thanks to everyone who has offered solutions. I would have loved to get that top spot.
If I want a specific Canoness, an Imagifer say a 15 girl BSS squad and three Exorcists to group together for both the auras and Valorous Heart Convictions I will have those units next to each other on the list.
The Unit fields would be colored dark grey and the relics auras and the like the characters bring would be included along with the bundle.
A Bloody Rose Repentia group would be blocked together with characters, relics, auras convictions etc. but the fields would be colored red.
Reserve units would be grouped the same way but they would be listed in the turn by turn script. Sorry, nowhere near a computer or my armies at the moment.
I'm still a little unclear as to whether Im understanding the color scheme, but still it makes me want to go back to the whole "rhino Boxes" idea. My new iteration of the list (trying Bloody Rose for the first time) does have three Rhinos... and a ton of Deep Strikes.
From my understanding it should look like:
Canoness X
Relic X
Aura effect
Imagifer
Relic Z
Aura effect
15 BSS 3x Exorcists
Canoness Y
Relic Y
Aura Effect
Repentia
Rhino
But with Excel cell background colored, instead of colored text like I did.
Nostro has the jist of it, just in a basic excel format with colored fields and the like.
If things settle down at work and with the quarantine I will try and get to where my armies are at, or to the computer I have my rosters on. I'm currently working a lot but only have a bunch of unpainted GSC models (less everyday) and my travel hobby kit readily available.
ERJAK wrote: In my experience, I'm usually better off forgetting things than spending time checking cheat sheets. For me, my Sisters lists tend to take games turn 4 and getting the game to that turn tends to be much more impactful than forgetting a miracle dice or not remembering litanies. With some armies like Guard, Nids, and even certain Eldar lists taking a seeming eternity to play out their turns, I just don't have time to consult cheat sheets.
If I'm doing something like going to a large tournament where the quality of players improves enough that I probably will win or lose games based on forgetting a single miracle dice, I tend to just play my tournament list exclusively(as in stop playing other games like AoS entirely) for 2-3 months before the event. With that much prep, plus the amount of time I spend obsessively reading and rereading rules while I'm tweaking the list before the 'lock-in' period, I rarely forget things.
I am a tournament player, so everything matters. The quality of my opponents, as i enumerated before is very very high. Jason Byrd, Chuck arnett, Jason Rider, Zachary Sandery, Paul Winters, Zachary Nelson, Collin Sherman,Sean Morgan, and the list goes on. All are people in my regular meta. So I really...really... need to know my stuff. Even non-tournament games are trials by fire at times; which is not a complaint, just an observation.
I am also a tournament player and you're not the only one who frequently gets matched up with people who win GTs.
Dracpanzer has cheat sheets that he uses to great affect, giving him significant advantage in his games.
I don't use cheat sheets because I find them cumbersome and when I've tried they've often given me more headache than they were worth.
I'm not arguing that the 'toss yourself off the dock to learn to swim' method of rules retention is better, I'm just pointing out that it's there.
I know there’s a lot of love for Repentia but I’ve never liked how one-dimensional they are. Sure, they’ll wipe big bad units off the board, but by the time you have two units and a Rhino to shuffle them up in you’re at near 300 points. They’re a threat unit but don’t do much for board control and have no shooting.
Since the codex dropped I’ve instead been using Celestians for center board control. I usually run 3 full squads of 10.
In my opinion they are under-rated, 10 Bloody Rose Celestians buffed by a Missionary and an Imagifier (warrior) put out 41x Str4 AP-1 attacks, and using 2CP can reroll all hits AND wounds. Add the Tear them Down strat and 10 Celestians are taking out half a fully buffed Paladin bomb squad or a full 30-boy squad on the charge.
They aren’t the best tool for everything, but against units with for example a 3+/4++ save their -1 AP isnt overkill as would be with Repentia or Zephyrim. And they still have Bolters (I put dual Stormbolters on my squads) with full re-rolls to hit near a Canoness, so a horde of 30 in the center can put out some fire.
So 312 points gets me 30 Celestians with dual stormbolters in each squad. They are buffed by a Missionary / a Beneficience-wielding Righteous Rage Canoness / and an Imagifier with both stoic (ignore AP-1) and warrior tales. The added benefit is the Canoness and Imagifier are protected by 30 bodyguards.
This with 2 full units of BR Zephyrim are my board control element, while a brigade of Valorous Heart gives fire support and ObSec.
Does anyone else use Celestians in their lists and would like to hear counter-arguments for why other units would be better from the perspective of board control.
One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
ZergSmasher wrote: One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
While this is mostly true, "whip lady" isn't a must have.
A priest and an Imagifier feel mandatory.
The rest are smaller buffs that aren't as necessary in my experience.
ZergSmasher wrote: One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
While this is mostly true, "whip lady" isn't a must have.
A priest and an Imagifier feel mandatory.
The rest are smaller buffs that aren't as necessary in my experience.
Priest
Imagifier
Character with +1 to Invulnerable saves
Saint Celestine
4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
ZergSmasher wrote: One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
While this is mostly true, "whip lady" isn't a must have.
A priest and an Imagifier feel mandatory.
The rest are smaller buffs that aren't as necessary in my experience.
Priest
Imagifier
Character with +1 to Invulnerable saves
Saint Celestine
4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Totally forgot about the bottom two, but in my defense I'm actually going to bring those two with or without Repentia, to be honest.
The priest and Imagifier with the Str tale are really the only ones I'm bringing mostly to maximize my Repentia.
Plus, after playing GKs lately, always on aura buffs are like child's play to manage. Buffing Repentia is hardly a problem. Not sure that to tell you, mate - they're totally worth it in my experience.
ZergSmasher wrote: One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
While this is mostly true, "whip lady" isn't a must have.
A priest and an Imagifier feel mandatory.
The rest are smaller buffs that aren't as necessary in my experience.
Priest
Imagifier
Character with +1 to Invulnerable saves
Saint Celestine
4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Totally forgot about the bottom two, but in my defense I'm actually going to bring those two with or without Repentia, to be honest.
The priest and Imagifier with the Str tale are really the only ones I'm bringing mostly to maximize my Repentia.
Plus, after playing GKs lately, always on aura buffs are like child's play to manage. Buffing Repentia is hardly a problem. Not sure that to tell you, mate - they're totally worth it in my experience.
GKs do not need costant 4+ auras applied to multiple units at once to perform. The fact that you need to do that with Repentias hinders your mobility A LOT, especially in the context of multiple Repentias and not a single unit (and without these defensive buffs Repentias are well dead considering that 10 Rapid firing guardsmen kill over 5 Repentia per shooting sequence)
KurtAngle2 wrote: GKs do not need costant 4+ auras applied to multiple units at once to perform. The fact that you need to do that with Repentias hinders your mobility A LOT, especially in the context of multiple Repentias and not a single unit (and without these defensive buffs Repentias are well dead considering that 10 Rapid firing guardsmen kill over 5 Repentia per shooting sequence)
If Guardsmen are threatening your Repentia(especially ar Rapid fire range), they've either done their job or you're using them wrong. The Imagifier and Missionary are the only support you need to get in there and carve up something valuable and I'm taking the Missionary anyway...
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Who's talking about footslogging? I think I'm one of the few who haven't routinely brought rhino for repentia. Everybody else is sensible enough to bring 'em in rhinos.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Who's talking about footslogging? I think I'm one of the few who haven't routinely brought rhino for repentia. Everybody else is sensible enough to bring 'em in rhinos.
I've been thinking about whether or not to bring rhinos or just footslog everything. Leaning towards Rhinos, but if I can get away without them, that's 130 points (for 2) that I can use for other things in the list.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Who's talking about footslogging? I think I'm one of the few who haven't routinely brought rhino for repentia. Everybody else is sensible enough to bring 'em in rhinos.
I've been thinking about whether or not to bring rhinos or just footslog everything. Leaning towards Rhinos, but if I can get away without them, that's 130 points (for 2) that I can use for other things in the list.
Try with one Rhino first, you may find that enough.
Orlanth wrote: Can someone give me pointers about how OML best work, as I want to paint my Sisters as Golden Light which uses their strategems.
Junith Eruita, Battle Sanctum, Large Squads of retributors with either MM or HB, Exorcists because of course, MSU battle sisters for easy miracle dice generation. Take Celestine and a +1 to SoF canoness for up to two bubbles of 4++. Seraphim are good too. Stay away from Melee units.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4 Auras just to have them footslog across the board because otherwise with 6++ and 5+++ for 13 points they easily get shot off the board at ludicrous prices
Never liked them, never will since they feel so restricted without them (and you can't afford to ALWAYS have a model of each unit within 4 6" auras all the time
Who's talking about footslogging? I think I'm one of the few who haven't routinely brought rhino for repentia. Everybody else is sensible enough to bring 'em in rhinos.
I've been thinking about whether or not to bring rhinos or just footslog everything. Leaning towards Rhinos, but if I can get away without them, that's 130 points (for 2) that I can use for other things in the list.
If you have triple exorcist, rhinos become a lot safer. No one who takes a good shot from an exo will put anti-tank fire into anything else.
ZergSmasher wrote: One of the biggest downsides of Repentia is that you need a large supporting cast to make them work. Whip lady, priest, Imagifier, and possibly more depending on how deep you want to go on buffs (I'm thinking Celestine and a Canoness with Indomitable Belief so the girls have a 4++). To make all that worth it, it's probably not a bad idea to run 2-3 decent size units to maximize the benefits of your buff characters. Sort of a melee deathstar, if you will. Plus, multiple units provides some redundancy since these things will be high priority targets for your opponent. So yes, it's easy to sink a lot of points into them if you want them to actually do something in a game.
You don't need any support for them to murder plenty of stuff
but the temptation to have 75 points in repentia kill a titan with all the support trimmings is there
Orlanth wrote: Can someone give me pointers about how OML best work, as I want to paint my Sisters as Golden Light which uses their strategems.
In theory OML with msuBSS, Large specialist squads w/ Plasma-ed up superiors and Simulacums, Hospitallers instead of Imagifiers, Junith and the Triumph.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm... maybe one or two Repentia squads and a a TotW Imagifier for the counter charge...
Anyway, tactically speaking...msuBSS out screening with a Celestian,/Junith/others core that tries to hide in cover as much as possible(half a squad and all the supporting cast in LoS blocking if possible) and then trying to out game your opponent while scoring what you can to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So... I did some theory list crafting. Thoughts?
Kinnay wrote: Any chance to have the report pasted here off of Facebook? Would love to read the report, but I haven't been on Facebook for 5 years or so, now.
I captioned the pics, so not really. Maybe log on for one day and look? I really dont know of a better way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of you will know this guys name. He's a high speed Imperial general. He recently took in the task of trying to play a Sisters of Silence army. Tough task. We played and he scored pretty well. theres pretty much literally only one way to build that army. zero choices really. But it was fun.
Kinnay wrote: Any chance to have the report pasted here off of Facebook? Would love to read the report, but I haven't been on Facebook for 5 years or so, now.
I captioned the pics, so not really. Maybe log on for one day and look? I really dont know of a better way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of you will know this guys name. He's a high speed Imperial general. He recently took in the task of trying to play a Sisters of Silence army. Tough task. We played and he scored pretty well. theres pretty much literally only one way to build that army. zero choices really. But it was fun.
Jancoran wrote: that specific exception exists for open topped etc... So sure. He asked about an ability. Context is King. Pedantism is well...pedantism.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So ive been able to keep my skills sharp using the Tabletop Simulator.
One of the things I am CONSTANTLY forgetting is my invulnerable saves (well, above the 6+ i mean). I mean you'd THINK that was important to remember but here we are, talking about how i don't remember.
Then again, I have repeatedly forgotten to put my Deep Strikers on the board in like 2/3 of my games, so this is not really new for me.
So i already understand how absurd it is to be forgetting something that basic... But... Do you guys use any kind of tool to remind yourselves of gak like this? I dropped my Seraphim from my list simply because i was forgetting them so often. It's a running joke in my club at this point. It hasn't hurt my chances as often as it should have but it was annoying enough to stop using them.
Now that I am planning to use more of them again, I am sort of thinking "dude... You know you're going to forget to deploy them..."
So what do you guys typically do to recall in game stuff you'd normally forget.
Oh and answers like "I never forget anything", while they might make you feel good inside somehow, probably aren't real germane. =)
and...go.
I refuse to use Tabletop Simulator, so I've just been without games for a while.
Anyway, I usually stage my reserves either in a unoccupied corner of the board, in a special "reserves/casualties space" that exists on my table at home [which is 7'x4', so there's 6" marked areas at the ends where models not currently in use can go], or on a little table nearby. I don't usually forget them, unless there was nowhere good to put them and I forgot that it was turn 3.
OTOH, I forget my psychic phase sometimes as Grey Knights, so like, sometimes I could use reminders too. For a while, when I was using primaris psykers in my IG in 7th, I had a sheet of paper with "CAST YOUR PSYCHIC POWERS" written on it in sharpie that I would put on the table somewhere in my way, or on top of one of my tank models, so that I would have to move it and thus remember to cast Invisibility and Prescience and whatever before moving to shooting.
If you have triple exorcist, rhinos become a lot safer. No one who takes a good shot from an exo will put anti-tank fire into anything else.
Some of my foes prioritize my armored carriers. Not only are the apcs coming closer, while the exorcists are hiding as far back as they can be, the rhinos have some very scary cargo.
If you have triple exorcist, rhinos become a lot safer. No one who takes a good shot from an exo will put anti-tank fire into anything else.
Some of my foes prioritize my armored carriers. Not only are the apcs coming closer, while the exorcists are hiding as far back as they can be, the rhinos have some very scary cargo.
Classic threat overload or distraction carnifex. Please shoot this model that is threatening you instead of this model I'd much rather stayed alive.
If you have triple exorcist, rhinos become a lot safer. No one who takes a good shot from an exo will put anti-tank fire into anything else.
Some of my foes prioritize my armored carriers. Not only are the apcs coming closer, while the exorcists are hiding as far back as they can be, the rhinos have some very scary cargo.
Classic threat overload or distraction carnifex. Please shoot this model that is threatening you instead of this model I'd much rather stayed alive.
I mean, I think it goes without saying that I would rather them shoot an Exorcist, though the fact that I had to drop other AT units that would have provided more pressure on the enemy in exchange for the improved fire output makes them more critical.
9 or 10 CP to start
5 characters/ 30 BSS/30 Celestians/30 Zephyrim/27 Repentia/10 Seraphim/10 Arcos
Setup is Seraphim and Zephyrim off-table
The rest of the elites (except Arcos) and missionaries / Canonesses in touch with the 9”-Imagifier bubble for ignore AP-1 and Inv +1 moving up to engage as quickly as possible
Canonesses and Imagifier have 30 shield drones in the celestians
Arcos set behind cover on a flank or push up for more threat
BSS grab objectives / engineering / screening
Trait is +1 to advance and charge
It’s not a lot of shooting but rather set up for board control and to keep the opponent guarding his back lines vs my deep strikers; Repentia / Arcos / Canonesses and even my Celestians can do quite a lot of damage once engaged in combat. There aren’t any high-wound models (except characters) so multi-damage weapons are mostly wasted.
This is more of a table or be tabled force I wager. I’ve never played melee sisters so it’s not a “comfortable” play style for me but I think it could be competitive.
Would appreciate any thoughts comments / critiques on the list as it’s currently what I’m painting up.
Ok, so has been a bit of a lack of word from me as wth things being as they are no many warhammer games I've had lately.
That said, my first time posting in this thread. I have a small selection of sisters stuff and will be picking up a couple things more soonish and have ideas for a battalion max of them.
I have the starter box collection from end of last year and St Celestine currently. I plan on getting at least a couple retributor boxes for heavy weapons and two sisters troop boxes.
Aside from that just looking for some ideas here. Is Junith good ? How do mortifiers hold up in use ?
I don't plan on going with exorcists but generally speaking what all would you say is a good focus towards battalion set up for the army.
Now loosely speaking their fluff was to be a counter point to nurgle forces, so like repentant sort of feel to them which considering the direction life took was sort of a grim foreshadowing indeed.
Any advice welcome, baste me with the knowledge and perhaps possible buys to look into in the future.
davidgr33n wrote: Would a mainly “elite” melee- and deepstrike- oriented Bloody Rose force with single-wound models (except Arcos) be a competitive build?
Thinking of the following force:
2000 point Bloody Rose “Order of the Emperors Wrath”
Battalion1
50 Canoness, plasma pistol, Beneficience
38 Missionary
135 (3x) 5 BSS, superior with Chainsword, bolters
171 (2x) 5 Seraphim with 4x Infernos, 1x Plas pistol
Battalion2
53 WL Canoness, Brazier (flame or Pistol), +1MD
38 Missionary
135 (3x) 5 BSS, superior with Chainsword, bolters
9 or 10 CP to start
5 characters/ 30 BSS/30 Celestians/30 Zephyrim/27 Repentia/10 Seraphim/10 Arcos
Setup is Seraphim and Zephyrim off-table
The rest of the elites (except Arcos) and missionaries / Canonesses in touch with the 9”-Imagifier bubble for ignore AP-1 and Inv +1 moving up to engage as quickly as possible
Canonesses and Imagifier have 30 shield drones in the celestians
Arcos set behind cover on a flank or push up for more threat
BSS grab objectives / engineering / screening
Trait is +1 to advance and charge
It’s not a lot of shooting but rather set up for board control and to keep the opponent guarding his back lines vs my deep strikers; Repentia / Arcos / Canonesses and even my Celestians can do quite a lot of damage once engaged in combat. There aren’t any high-wound models (except characters) so multi-damage weapons are mostly wasted.
This is more of a table or be tabled force I wager. I’ve never played melee sisters so it’s not a “comfortable” play style for me but I think it could be competitive.
Would appreciate any thoughts comments / critiques on the list as it’s currently what I’m painting up.
Bloody Rose is highly effective. Ive been testing my list. so far fantastic results.
I have not played with Celestiand as assault units. I am not yet practiced w them as they have been red headed step children for oh.so long.
Only cretique is you might wanna squeeze out the points for one rhino. Delivering pain and distracting their firepower are key.
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AngryAngel80 wrote: Ok, so has been a bit of a lack of word from me as wth things being as they are no many warhammer games I've had lately.
That said, my first time posting in this thread. I have a small selection of sisters stuff and will be picking up a couple things more soonish and have ideas for a battalion max of them.
I have the starter box collection from end of last year and St Celestine currently. I plan on getting at least a couple retributor boxes for heavy weapons and two sisters troop boxes.
Aside from that just looking for some ideas here. Is Junith good ? How do mortifiers hold up in use ?
I don't plan on going with exorcists but generally speaking what all would you say is a good focus towards battalion set up for the army.
Now loosely speaking their fluff was to be a counter point to nurgle forces, so like repentant sort of feel to them which considering the direction life took was sort of a grim foreshadowing indeed.
Any advice welcome, baste me with the knowledge and perhaps possible buys to look into in the future.
Well Junith HERSELF is good but she is <order> locked and not to a particularly favored <order>. The Martyr'd Lady plays fine and you can win with any orders really now that the codex is so much better. However the Martyr'd lady does give up a lot to be its own brand of cool. Junith is the "jumppack Canoness" weve been asking for since the dawn of time. She can keep up with her faster buddies and buff them up. Her weapons are great and shes just overall good. Her <order> is the more limiting factor.
The Dominion box is gold. buy it. probably buy like teo. aaaaaaaall the special weapins in ample supply come in it. might be the best deaal in 40k land.
Celestians are great for 2 reasons- first with buffs typically nearby (Imagifier for Str+1 / missionary / Canoness) they’ll hit harder than Zephyrim and against units with good invuln saves their lower melee AP won’t be wasted- run the maths, for 100 points for 10 they’re a bargain; also theyre like shield drones for your Imagifier / Canonesses that in turn buff your other units- I’ve kept my opponents down to 1 or 2 headhunter points just because of celestians.
Im finding if you can weather first turn as Bloody Rose in my play tests that it actually outperforms Valorous Heart. I’ve been switching out my Arcos and a Zephyrim unit for 3 units of Mortifiers to make a brigade and I’m liking the results a lot.
The Mortys rush up fast and shoot their HBs and get all the attention allowing the rest of the force to move up and setup their charges.
Celestians are great for 2 reasons- first with buffs typically nearby (Imagifier for Str+1 / missionary / Canoness) they’ll hit harder than Zephyrim and against units with good invuln saves their lower melee AP won’t be wasted- run the maths, for 100 points for 10 they’re a bargain; also theyre like shield drones for your Imagifier / Canonesses that in turn buff your other units- I’ve kept my opponents down to 1 or 2 headhunter points just because of celestians.
Im finding if you can weather first turn as Bloody Rose in my play tests that it actually outperforms Valorous Heart. I’ve been switching out my Arcos and a Zephyrim unit for 3 units of Mortifiers to make a brigade and I’m liking the results a lot.
The Mortys rush up fast and shoot their HBs and get all the attention allowing the rest of the force to move up and setup their charges.
My overall win percentage with Sisters is 88% (I track it on ITC Battles). My normal list is Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud combined. Main losses have come at the hands of pretty typical suspects like Posessed Bomb. I lost to a Sanguinary Guard Blood Angel guy whose really good in general 23-33 right after that dropped. Lost a separate one against them. Same story, but only lost 17-26 in that one. Much closer.
that's about it. Super-ultra-omega-in-your-face-but impossible-to-kill lists are pretty much the achilles heel, but even those are not insurmountable meaning I have not lost most of them but those i did lose ARE those.. they just tend to be the ones I lose to, becuase at end of day we are a shooting army (except Bloody Rose of course).
I am going to run the numbers on Celestians as you suggest. I have heard good things but my brain is so locked on "they suck" mode about them that I have't even tried honestly. I will though. There's not much gaming going on right now so its tough to test ideas out, but we're making do and i am interested in your Celestian thoughts on how you kit them or use them.
Bloody Rose is pretty good. I haven't lost with them either [which is not saying a lot since I played about 5 Sisters games, only 3 as BR, before Lockdown happened, though I didn't lose with them either under the Beta codex and only played as them during that time, which is I think my longest "time undefeated" streak.]
Bloody Rose should in theory outperform Valorous Heart if it survives the first turn, because Valorous Heart is all about surviving. If you assume that Valorous Heart's bonus doesn't matter, then obviously the offensive bonus will do better.
I've switched over to VH though. The surviving the first turn is the problem, and since I get the +1S from Imagifiers now and +1A from priests, I feel like I don't need to be BR and can be good in melee as any Sisters subfaction and survive the first turn and make Space Marine players cry as Valorous Heart. I'd consider switching to Argent Shroud against IG or opposing Sisters or someone else not so big on AP-2.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Bloody Rose is pretty good. I haven't lost with them either [which is not saying a lot since I played about 5 Sisters games, only 3 as BR, before Lockdown happened, though I didn't lose with them either under the Beta codex and only played as them during that time, which is I think my longest "time undefeated" streak.]
Bloody Rose should in theory outperform Valorous Heart if it survives the first turn, because Valorous Heart is all about surviving. If you assume that Valorous Heart's bonus doesn't matter, then obviously the offensive bonus will do better.
I've switched over to VH though. The surviving the first turn is the problem, and since I get the +1S from Imagifiers now and +1A from priests, I feel like I don't need to be BR and can be good in melee as any Sisters subfaction and survive the first turn and make Space Marine players cry as Valorous Heart. I'd consider switching to Argent Shroud against IG or opposing Sisters or someone else not so big on AP-2.
Argent shroud is a great supplement to my Valorous Heart. It definitely gives me a lot more threat reach. makes you think twice before shoving big burlies at me too soon in the battle.
I’ve been tailoring my list over the last few weeks and have been coming back to one list in particular.
Bloody Rose brigade:
Canoness with Beneficence and Plasma
Canoness with Brazier, bolt pistol (take either the flame brazier or pistol Relic), WL +1 MD/ turn
Missionary
6 basic Sisters squads
3 Seraphim squads, 2 with double Infernos
Imagifier (Warrior+Stoic) / BOSL / +1 INV 3 squads 9 Repentia
1 squad 10 Zephyrim with Pennant
3 squads Celestians with double SBs and combiplasma
1 squad 3 Mortifiers
1 squad 2 Mortifiers
1 Exorcist with XML
That’s 1998 pts, 2 MD / turn and 11CP after upgrades which is a good number for when needed.
BR are great for board control.
I start out blobbed up near the central obj. with most everything within 9” Imagifier bubble for 5++.
The heavies are a distraction. Seraphim and Zephyrim off table.
The list figures the celestians prominently: they get reroll to all hits near a Canoness (so combiplasma nearly always hits) and protect my characters. The list only gives up headhunter (but only 4 characters protected by 30 Celestian “drones”) and with difficulty Reaper / Butchers Bill. The celestians hit hard on their own and are behind my BSS screens. The Repentia bring up the rear. I can split up into 3 nearly equal cohorts (10 BSS/ 10 Celestians/ 9 Repentia/ one Canoness or Imagifier) and hit flanks for objectives or mix / match as needed (also great for Champions mission).
No need to go over tactics here but you don’t always wanna get into combat with them (counter stratagem) so it’s all about timing. The celestians can do screening as well as heavy lifting but my Repentia and to a smaller degree the Zephyrim are the heavy hitters.
Re Celestians
A 10 model barebones 100-pt squad of BR Celestians with Warrior Tale and a Missionary, superior with Chainsword:
42 Str4 AP-1 attacks, use the BR strat and Celestian strat, they’ll cause 13-14 wounds on a T7 3+/4++ or Aggressor/ Centurion EQ, and against Intercessor EQ 16 -17 wounds.
Don’t wanna use them on T8 models ever.
I’ve been tailoring my list over the last few weeks and have been coming back to one list in particular.
Bloody Rose brigade:
Canoness with Beneficence and Plasma
Canoness with Brazier, bolt pistol (take either the flame brazier or pistol Relic), WL +1 MD/ turn
Missionary
6 basic Sisters squads
3 Seraphim squads, 2 with double Infernos
Imagifier (Warrior+Stoic) / BOSL / +1 INV 3 squads 9 Repentia
1 squad 10 Zephyrim with Pennant
3 squads Celestians with double SBs and combiplasma
1 squad 3 Mortifiers
1 squad 2 Mortifiers
1 Exorcist with XML
That’s 1998 pts, 2 MD / turn and 11CP after upgrades which is a good number for when needed.
BR are great for board control.
I start out blobbed up near the central obj. with most everything within 9” Imagifier bubble for 5++.
The heavies are a distraction. Seraphim and Zephyrim off table.
The list figures the celestians prominently: they get reroll to all hits near a Canoness (so combiplasma nearly always hits) and protect my characters. The list only gives up headhunter (but only 4 characters protected by 30 Celestian “drones”) and with difficulty Reaper / Butchers Bill. The celestians hit hard on their own and are behind my BSS screens. The Repentia bring up the rear. I can split up into 3 nearly equal cohorts (10 BSS/ 10 Celestians/ 9 Repentia/ one Canoness or Imagifier) and hit flanks for objectives or mix / match as needed (also great for Champions mission).
No need to go over tactics here but you don’t always wanna get into combat with them (counter stratagem) so it’s all about timing. The celestians can do screening as well as heavy lifting but my Repentia and to a smaller degree the Zephyrim are the heavy hitters.
Re Celestians
A 10 model barebones 100-pt squad of BR Celestians with Warrior Tale and a Missionary, superior with Chainsword:
42 Str4 AP-1 attacks, use the BR strat and Celestian strat, they’ll cause 13-14 wounds on a T7 3+/4++ or Aggressor/ Centurion EQ, and against Intercessor EQ 16 -17 wounds.
Don’t wanna use them on T8 models ever.
Thank you for that.
So I did a little work here. I can see the attraction on the number of attacks. You are committing one hell of a lot of Command Points to rev that engine, is the only thing i can see with it.
The Revved up squad is going to absolutely blitz anything it hits. According to my math, against MEQ types, you're getting what i see as 41 attacks. Not sure where 42 is coming from.
They are rerolling hit and wounds. they are wounding on 3's to begin with using that strat. Of course exploding 6's is assumed so 10 extra hits. That's a total of about 53 hits. Rolling to wound its aboooooout 40 wounds at -1 AP.
So it's 3 command points to pull that off, includes the Missionary, Bloody Rose, Imagifier and 3 Strat points. Comes with the bodyguard feature as well for those sneaky Raven Guard going after Head Hunter points. Super cool bolters and Meltaguns as well if'n yer feeling sparky. That takes out 10 Primaris Marines in one fell swoop (20 wounds).
Zephyrim are 175 with pennant. Re-rolling all wounds. 41 attacks. Ap -4. It can be argued that they probably will be re-rolling 1's to hit but I'll leave that out. Throw in 4-5 for exploding 6's. 38 hits. Using just the bloody Rose Strat and assuming we got the Imagifier and Blazing Ire Canoness of Doom in to range, thats 35 wounds at -4 AP.
Clearly the argument FOR Celestians seems to be that you are not overpaying, since 10 dead Primaris or 20 dead whatevers is pretty darn well ENOUGH. The Zephyrim appear to be overkill, and therefore on a points scale inefficient in comparison on offense, plus regardless of offense you get their bodyguard ability and excellent shooting at greater range than the Zephyrim can muster.
The argument against would seem to be that you are paying 3 CP instead of 1 to power up the Celestians on offense. Zephyrim re-roll charges and allow OTHERs to do the same. In addition the Zephyrim are superior in mobility, and defensively they are better because of their improved Shield of Faith.
So the question becomes, do you have the extra 2 CP to spend and will you make it across the board in order to impose your will on the fools arrayed before you? Celestians strike me as a very good value especially if you have thre battalions and maybe even two and a Vanguard/whatever. You really have to pump up the command points as i have learned in my Valorous heart force. The army does a lot with them, an area my Bloody rose do suffer a bit in because i didn't want the troops tax, although as i play more I may alter my course and add more CP.
It's a pretty interesting conundrum. My one other concern is that it might not be optimal to have more than one Celestian Squad in the army because the Strats can only really pile up on one unit. The Zephyrim do not rely nearly as much on the Strats and could go without and still put a hurt on an enemy.
Yup it's a tough call but putting one unit in an army certainly appears to pay dividends. I would also point out that Arco-Flagellents are two wound FnP monsters who are pretty sweet. and with their strat they can pump out RIDICULOUS close combat production at -1 AP as well. 7 Arcos kicks out 64 attacks, 48 hits, 32 wounds, 16 dead MEQ (8 Primaris). That's aaaaalmost as good for slightly less points and takes only 1 CP. So maybe you take 7 Arcos, 10 Celestians and 10 Zephyrim and of course Repentia. Thats a fierce line up that you can spend freely on to buff and spread it around a bit.
But I can see why the Celestians look fearsome and at the points cost, you can kind of afford the added Sisters of Battle perhaps that will be needed to fuel them. More bodies on the field firing more guns.
The extra attack on the Superior I get from her chainsword giving her 4 attacks base, and my maths hadn’t figured in exploding 6s as I usually take the +1 to charge / advance Rite. But I may have to reassess that now as that’s quite powerful.
For CP reasons I take a full brigade and could easily drop a Mortifier and exchange for another Canoness for an extra CP (making a Vanguard detachment). Then I’d start with 12CP after upgrades.
I don’t figure I’ll need to use 3CP very often as even without the CP power up they’ll cause considerable damage (they already get full reroll to hits near a Canoness which they usually are) though the plus one to wound strat at 1 CP is very affordable and likely always use.
Celestians are better used vs units with a 4++ or 5++ where their AP-1 won’t be overkill as would be with for example Zephyrim power swords.
I take 3 full units to spread them out and take the pain to whichever part of the field I need it. Backed by Repentia the opponent will have to choose which they’ll get hit by. The Repentia can’t shoot which is why I consider Celestians as better utility.
The Zephyrim have their use and I do include a full unit, but they cost 7 points more base than celestians and output isn’t quite there if I can’t get my buff characters close to them. I use Zephyrim as backfield punishers so won’t always be able to support them like I can Celestians.
I love Arcos but have 2 concerns about them- they can’t shoot so you lose some utility, and they don’t have the 6++ save and can’t benefit from Indomitable Belief for a 5++ like the Repentia can. True they have 2 wounds but their strat takes 2 CP which is also high. But I’ll take a closer look and see if I can fit some into the list as I do like them.
Lastly I have 3 considerations when I make my lists: First, board control = more bodies. My list building also takes into consideration how much CP I can get (so usually go for a brigade) and it’s not as important but I do try to deny points for itc missions.
The extra attack on the Superior I get from her chainsword giving her 4 attacks base, and my maths hadn’t figured in exploding 6s as I usually take the +1 to charge / advance Rite. But I may have to reassess that now as that’s quite powerful.
For CP reasons I take a full brigade and could easily drop a Mortifier and exchange for another Canoness for an extra CP (making a Vanguard detachment). Then I’d start with 12CP after upgrades.
I don’t figure I’ll need to use 3CP very often as even without the CP power up they’ll cause considerable damage (they already get full reroll to hits near a Canoness which they usually are) though the plus one to wound strat at 1 CP is very affordable and likely always use.
Celestians are better used vs units with a 4++ or 5++ where their AP-1 won’t be overkill as would be with for example Zephyrim power swords.
I take 3 full units to spread them out and take the pain to whichever part of the field I need it. Backed by Repentia the opponent will have to choose which they’ll get hit by. The Repentia can’t shoot which is why I consider Celestians as better utility.
The Zephyrim have their use and I do include a full unit, but they cost 7 points more base than celestians and output isn’t quite there if I can’t get my buff characters close to them. I use Zephyrim as backfield punishers so won’t always be able to support them like I can Celestians.
I love Arcos but have 2 concerns about them- they can’t shoot so you lose some utility, and they don’t have the 6++ save and can’t benefit from Indomitable Belief for a 5++ like the Repentia can. True they have 2 wounds but their strat takes 2 CP which is also high. But I’ll take a closer look and see if I can fit some into the list as I do like them.
Lastly I have 3 considerations when I make my lists: First, board control = more bodies. My list building also takes into consideration how much CP I can get (so usually go for a brigade) and it’s not as important but I do try to deny points for itc missions.
Exploding 6's is a DECISIVELY good choice when re-rolls are high. Faith Dice can make the +1 charge irrelevant. I know you didn't spend on a Simulacrum, but you could drop one Celestian and get the Simulacrum. My math says you probably dont need all 10 really.
I will say that the math is definitely in favor of Celestians in points efficiency and then against it in CP efficiency. There MIGHT be an opportunity cost there as well if you take more than one unit. But overall it would be hard to argue logically against their efficacy.
Thank you for bringing this to the more more critical thinking part of my brain. It's been useful. My Bloody Rose list cannot afford the CP's, as it stands so I cannot make use of them in this iteration, but i may very well try it in my normal list, which has far more in the way of list flexibility to accept them into it.
This is my my first time posting in this thread. I haven't been keeping up with all of the recent developments but I'm determined to get to work on my sisters while I've got the time to spare during lockdown. I'm working on a 500-point starting base that could be played in an escalation league or in general small-point games. Gradually, I'd work up to 1k, 1.5k and so on. It's temping to go VH patrol or battalion at the core and build around that. But I've also thought about making BR my focus, as I really like the idea of Zephyrim, Repentia and smash Canonesses getting in my opponent's face. In such a small points list, however, it might be better to focus on the essentials - filling out a battalion with VH squads, bringing along an Exorcist, etc.
I'm kind of stumped on these first 500 points, barring something generic like:
VH Order Conviction
Canoness
Missionary
3x BSS Exorcist
With a quad-inferno pistol Seraphim squad to fill in the remaining points.
Another option would be to go BR from the get-go, drop the missionary and take a 7-8 count Zephyrim unit instead of Seraphim, but I get the feeling that puts all my eggs in one basket.
By the way. Have people(especially VH players) faced dark eldars yet? If so how has it been? It's one matchup I have yet to do and am thinking that might be particularly bad matchup as it's one of the few armies who can(and usually do) really spam decent RoF -3 guns in form of disintegrator cannons. That and rest of the fire being no AP poison weapons aka no points wasted on AP that doesn't matter vs VH.
Aristo wrote: This is my my first time posting in this thread. I haven't been keeping up with all of the recent developments but I'm determined to get to work on my sisters while I've got the time to spare during lockdown. I'm working on a 500-point starting base that could be played in an escalation league or in general small-point games. Gradually, I'd work up to 1k, 1.5k and so on. It's temping to go VH patrol or battalion at the core and build around that. But I've also thought about making BR my focus, as I really like the idea of Zephyrim, Repentia and smash Canonesses getting in my opponent's face. In such a small points list, however, it might be better to focus on the essentials - filling out a battalion with VH squads, bringing along an Exorcist, etc.
I'm kind of stumped on these first 500 points, barring something generic like:
VH Order Conviction
Canoness
Missionary
3x BSS Exorcist
With a quad-inferno pistol Seraphim squad to fill in the remaining points.
Another option would be to go BR from the get-go, drop the missionary and take a 7-8 count Zephyrim unit instead of Seraphim, but I get the feeling that puts all my eggs in one basket.
Looks great at 500
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tneva82 wrote: By the way. Have people(especially VH players) faced dark eldars yet? If so how has it been? It's one matchup I have yet to do and am thinking that might be particularly bad matchup as it's one of the few armies who can(and usually do) really spam decent RoF -3 guns in form of disintegrator cannons. That and rest of the fire being no AP poison weapons aka no points wasted on AP that doesn't matter vs VH.
How has it been and what works vs them?
Ive played against DE. Kill the Gun boats. they are brutal against you. Poison is not as good against sisters really. Exorcists can play really big because they do knock them out something fierce most of the time. Depending on your list, playing possum and hiding round one WHILE you kill gun boats isnt the worst idea. Many DE are coming FOR you anyways and you're better off when they must get closer to get angles on you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Word on the Streets is that I can now get my band of Killer Z's orderered now.
First order to my FLGS since the lockdown. Got my Killer Z's finally! Time to paint.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Absurd game today! The guy had over 270 models on the table (250 in troops alone (like 70 dropped in from the sky). Never fought anything like it. He led for all four of the first four rounds. I did end up tabling his entire army. BTW, the last pic is really the first. it uploaded funky. Clicking on it gives you a better look at it.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: With the announced changes so far it doesn't seem like I'll regret running min sisters with double storm bolters as troops?
Nope unlikely to be hurt.
Brigades might drop in popularity, multi orders less appealing depending on how many cp you pay for second det. Maybe i should paint vh zephyr unit as well. Wonder if the rocket exorcist gets blast bonus giving some role to maybe use them and not just at. Too bad same datasheet...
MacPhail wrote: I watched the trailer but haven't navigated the teasers yet... can someone summarize? Please & thank you!
The big things were announcing a new edition, free core rules (like now, a small pamphlet) with possible digital rules (whether through buying a book or paying a subscription hasn't been said).
Necrons and the Silent King will play a big part and there's a 3 legged necron Big Boy.
Primaris have Assault Intercessors (Pistol and Chain Sword) and a storm shield wielding Capt or LT. There was also a pic of Bikes and heavy weapons infantry that may have been a MM.
The impossibility of deciphering anything meaningful at this point is evident.
While I'd love to say i gleaned a bunuch of stuff from their clues, i imagine the clues to come will be more meaty. I am well positioned for basically any direction they go however. Hehehe.
MacPhail wrote: I watched the trailer but haven't navigated the teasers yet... can someone summarize? Please & thank you!
Rulewise biggest things revealed are blast weapons(presumably faq will be given to show what are unless it's all random shot weapmns) will get max shots vs "horde" units(maybe all units with more than x models), tanks(wether just tanks which needs errata or all vehicles) able to shoot while in melee and command points changed. All start with certain amount based on game size and detachments(maybe all after first or flat all) costs you cp. So no need to spam det's and cheap troops for cp as that infact costs it.
Other things noted were terrain rules becoming more detailed, reserve rules change so now you can leave any squads to reserve and changes to flyers.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: With the announced changes so far it doesn't seem like I'll regret running min sisters with double storm bolters as troops?
Nope unlikely to be hurt.
Brigades might drop in popularity, multi orders less appealing depending on how many cp you pay for second det. Maybe i should paint vh zephyr unit as well. Wonder if the rocket exorcist gets blast bonus giving some role to maybe use them and not just at. Too bad same datasheet...
Sanctum looks to cost cp for det.
But no giant effect so far i think
Don't know till Tuesday but I thought you only paid CP for Detachments beyond your own Codex?
until these things are properly announced
speculation is pointless?
what if they add a fortification slot to battalions or brigades?
they've said their will be more CP but how exactly is that achieved can i trade my new extra CP to run the same soup as is?
could they completely rewrite detachments altogether?
what is a blast weapon any variable shot weapon such as a flamer or what would have had a blast template in 7th?
what points changes?
Since 8th was the most playtested edition ever and 9th hasn't had that accolade the only thing we can be sure of now is that they did not do enough testing
And i was so ready to start playing in tournaments with my new models and lists, hopefully things don’t get skewed so over the top that everything I’ve painted the last few months is useless.
davidgr33n wrote: And i was so ready to start playing in tournaments with my new models and lists, hopefully things don’t get skewed so over the top that everything I’ve painted the last few months is useless.
Haha yeah. I have got 1 tournament so far with sisters. Maybe another in july if corona doesn''t get worse.
For 9th mech might be better so bracing forward painting more immolators and rhinos. Repressors will wait for new fw books to see do thev get new model. If not likely legendification.
Mr Morden wrote: Don't know till Tuesday but I thought you only paid CP for Detachments beyond your own Codex?
Could be wrong but pretty sure I heard CP for detachments and CP for unlocking other codexes. Ie you would pay both going for different codex. And in terms of balance it makes sense to pay CP to get multiple detachments even inside same codex. For one it encourages using all kinds of slots rather than spamming your optimal slot forever. For second it gives reward to staying same order/klan/regiment/dynasty/whatever despite flat out losing pure power. With sisters ATM taking bloody rose for melee units is no brainer. Apart from more CP from 2nd detachment you ALSO get better units for no cost! By docking CP for another deatchment even inside same codex you a) encourage filling up detachment slots rather than simply taking new one b) optimizing bonuses comes with cost.
When you have seen pure evil suns for example? Or goffs? Orks with zero shooting doesn't really work so they need shooting element but...evil sun souped up shock attack gun? Ummm...right. Not that useful. Goff is even more ridiculous. More attacks in melee in shooty unit But if I heard right and you dock CP for detachments even inside same codex that SSAG would be tradeoff between better shooting ability and CP. There would actually be choise to make. With sisters valorous heart would be making decision does he/she want more CP or bloody rose bonuses for those repentias which might or might not be as obvious choice depending on army build.
